Thai word "DUAY"
Lawrence T Dargan
I love the way Thai people pronounce the word DUAY. I understand it
means "together" like in the usage of "MAH DUAY" - come together - or
more probably - accompany - can someone enlighten me if I am on the
right track or not?
KAWP KOON in advance
--
_--_|\ Lawrence T Dargan
/ Ashok\ mailto:ltda...@magna.com.au
\_.--._/ http://www.magna.com.au/~ltdargan/
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was...@hotmail.com
> I love the way Thai people pronounce the word DUAY. I understand it
> means "together" like in the usage of "MAH DUAY" - come together - or
> more probably - accompany - can someone enlighten me if I am on the
> right track or not?
Yes you are. Duay" is an adverb meaning "as well, accompany, together".
But there is a phrase chuay"duay" just means Help Help! or "Please come
and help me" in a longer sense.
wasant
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Varodom Toochinda
was...@hotmail.com wrote:
: Yes you are. Duay" is an adverb meaning "as well, accompany, together".
We commonly use it in place of "too" in English. "Me too" = /Pom+ Duay"/.
(Though saying "You too"=/Khun Duay"/ would awake V.J. the Spooner King :)).
: But there is a phrase chuay"duay" just means Help Help! or "Please come
: and help me" in a longer sense.
Let's see if this works. Suppose you're drowning in a river, you say to
people on the bridge /chuay" duay"/ or /chuay" Pom+ duay"/. In a sense,
you're suggesting "I want to be together with you guys up there. please find
some way to make that happen." :)
Dew.
:
: wasant
Varodom Toochinda
Varodom Toochinda (vtoo...@wilde.oit.umass.edu) wrote:
: Let's see if this works. Suppose you're drowning in a river, you say to
: you're suggesting "I want to be together with you guys up there. please find
: some way to make that happen." :)
Nah, my above analysis was obviously nonsense. :)
Indeed, it's worthy to note that we Thais for some unexplanable reason
also use /duay"/ in place of exclamation mark! Do you believe me? When
I'm drowning, I won't say /chuay" noi'/ (give me some little help please),
but /chuay" duay"!!/ (I'm dying. Help!!). If you agree with someone,
saying /Jing/ (yes) means you just agree, but don't have much interest.
In contrast, /Jing duay"!!/ implies you're fascinating, or surprising,
with the result. Perhaps the agreement is unexpected.
Why did I say using /duay"/ in this sense has nothing to do with "being
together"? Let's make a scenerio. Suppose I went for a walk along the
seashore alone in the morning and saw a dolphin jumping over the wave.
Later I told my friends /Chao^ ne^ pom+ hen+ pla- loma- **duay"** la !!/.
Though nobody else saw the /pla-loma/ but me, I somehow used /duay"/ to add
some excitement to the story.
Do you agree or disagree?
Dew.
Joris Goetschalckx
Varodom Toochinda wrote in message <357c2...@oit.umass.edu>...
>Indeed, it's worthy to note that we Thais for some unexplanable reason
>also use /duay"/ in place of exclamation mark! Do you believe me? When
Yep, as in keb taang duay, when yelling over the counter that you'd like
to have the bill. And then soften it with a little noi at the end.
Sometimes speaking Thai is like sculpting. You begin with a rough idea,
then you add a word here and there to convey a more precise sense. You
step back and look at the construct. Nah, a little too rough, throw in a
noi-particle; a little too affirmative, throw in a na-particle, etc.
etc. This is Art. Fascinating...
Kind regards,
Joris
John, that Alaska guy
And a kahp coda at the end to polish it. Just like jazz.
--
John Spacer (that Alaska guy)
jpspacer(&%*)alaska.net
[Substitute @ for (&%*)]
Joris Goetschalckx <joris.goe...@skynet.be> wrote in article
<6lhh1i$61j$1...@news1.skynet.be>...
was...@hotmail.com
> : But there is a phrase chuay"duay" just means Help Help! or "Please
come
> : and help me" in a longer sense.
>
> Let's see if this works. Suppose you're drowning in a river, you say to
> people on the bridge /chuay" duay"/ or /chuay" Pom+ duay"/. In a sense,
> you're suggesting "I want to be together with you guys up there. please find
> some way to make that happen." :)
Really can't beat your interpretation:)))
was...@hotmail.com
>
> Why did I say using /duay"/ in this sense has nothing to do with "being
> together"? Let's make a scenerio. Suppose I went for a walk along the
> seashore alone in the morning and saw a dolphin jumping over the wave.
> Later I told my friends /Chao^ ne^ pom+ hen+ pla- loma- **duay"** la !!/.
> Though nobody else saw the /pla-loma/ but me, I somehow used /duay"/ to add
> some excitement to the story.
>
> Do you agree or disagree?
Your interpretation is interesting about emphasis which I agree. However,
the sense of "as well, too" is still there in your example. Instead of
walking along with no untoward incident as you normally expect, you chance to
see dolphin unexpectedly. So the sense of "as well" is there obliquely. I
walk along the seashore expecting nothing but I see the dolphin too.
Torben Larsen
You are absolutely right
BTW I also like when Thai persons say the word
Regards Torben Larsen
On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:43:02 +1000, Lawrence T Dargan
<ltda...@magna.com.au> wrote:
>I love the way Thai people pronounce the word DUAY. I understand it
>means "together" like in the usage of "MAH DUAY" - come together - or
>more probably - accompany - can someone enlighten me if I am on the
>right track or not?
>
Torben Larsen
Hi Joris I think you made a mistake with the sound
keb taang duay Isn't it starting with a gor sound and satang ??.
regards Torben Larsen
Varodom Toochinda
was...@hotmail.com wrote:
: Your interpretation is interesting about emphasis which I agree. However,
: the sense of "as well, too" is still there in your example. Instead of
: walking along with no untoward incident as you normally expect, you chance to
: see dolphin unexpectedly. So the sense of "as well" is there obliquely. I
: walk along the seashore expecting nothing but I see the dolphin too.
O.K. But I feel you and I are now dolphins trying to swim in muddy water,
(pai- bab' nam" kun' kun'), aren't we? :) "Expecting nothing but see the
dolphin too" sounds like an uncommon way to use "too."(?). Shouldn't it be
"In addition to the sea and beach and some babe in bikinis I saw the
dolphin too." ?
How about "kep tang douy" Joris suggested? Are we trying to tell the
waiter/ess, "You already charged other customers. I want to join them.
Please don't leave my table as unpaid aliens. Check us too." ?
Dew. ;)
Joris Goetschalckx
Torben Larsen wrote in message <357d6dbf...@news.image.dk>...
>Hi Joris I think you made a mistake with the sound
>keb taang duay Isn't it starting with a gor sound and satang ??.
>regards Torben Larsen
Hi Torben,
Yes of course you are right. Typo. I meant tang with short a. Thanks.
Joris
--
Joris Goetschalckx
http://users.skynet.be/sky98829
was...@hotmail.com
In article <357d6dbf...@news.image.dk>,
sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) wrote:
>
> Hi Joris I think you made a mistake with the sound
> keb taang duay Isn't it starting with a gor sound and satang ??.
> regards Torben Larsen
According to Official (Rajabhandhit) spelling, k stands for Gor Gai while
kh stands for Khor Khai. We don't use satang as it is a unit lower than baht
(like cent) but use TANG as an abbreviation which means MONEY. Literally, the
phrase mean "Collect Money Please".
was...@hotmail.com
>
> How about "kep tang douy" Joris suggested? Are we trying to tell the
> waiter/ess, "You already charged other customers. I want to join them.
> Please don't leave my table as unpaid aliens. Check us too." ?
OK, let's me muddle it here too. The waiter expects to clear the table, but
we want him/her to collect the bill also. Here is the sense. Since you are
going to come and clean our table, why not check our bill too? This is too
muddling:) I rather agree that DUAY in this context is used to soften the
request as "keb tang" alone sounds like a command than a request. We would
like to be polite, wouldn't we?
imba
> Torben Larsen wrote in message
> >Hi Joris I think you made a mistake with the sound
> >keb taang duay Isn't it starting with a gor sound and satang ??.
> >regards Torben Larsen
>
>
> Hi Torben,
> Yes of course you are right. Typo. I meant tang with short a. Thanks.
> Joris
Correct me if I'm wrong : I thought both satang/sataang are correct : short
or long aa
Then what about tang/taang : are both correct or not ?
(I only remember having heard the short 'tang' version when being in
Thailand. But then again, Saeng Thip was always omnipresent...)
regards, Imba
Torben Larsen
Thanks Khun wasant, could you clearify "Collect Money Please".
since please is not part of the sentence, or could it be a hidden
agenda for "thanks I am leaving, please accept my payment also"
or more correct "keb baht krup" ??.
Is it not to brute so say baht instead of the lower denomination of
the baht.??, what is the perfect way to get the attention so one can
pay the bill.??
regards Torben Larsen
On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:07:23 GMT, was...@hotmail.com wrote:
>In article <357d6dbf...@news.image.dk>,
> sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joris I think you made a mistake with the sound
>> keb taang duay Isn't it starting with a gor sound and satang ??.
>> regards Torben Larsen
>
> According to Official (Rajabhandhit) spelling, k stands for Gor Gai while
>kh stands for Khor Khai. We don't use satang as it is a unit lower than baht
>(like cent) but use TANG as an abbreviation which means MONEY. Literally, the
>phrase mean "Collect Money Please".
>
pkham...@hotmail.com
In article <01bd93ed$c501be80$1a09eec3@default>,
"imba" <Id...@want.spam> wrote:
>
>
> > Torben Larsen wrote in message
> > >keb taang duay Isn't it starting with a gor sound and satang ??.
> > >regards Torben Larsen
> >
> >
> > Yes of course you are right. Typo. I meant tang with short a. Thanks.
> > Joris
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong : I thought both satang/sataang are correct : short
> or long aa
>
> Then what about tang/taang : are both correct or not ?
> (I only remember having heard the short 'tang' version when being in
> Thailand. But then again, Saeng Thip was always omnipresent...)
>
> regards, Imba
>
In spoken language, Thais like to alter the sound of words by shorten the
vowels or cut off some syllable. First it was shorten to /s-tang-/ with
very short / s/ like when you say "snake", then the first syllable was
dropped and the new word became a slang meaning "money". I suppose it happen
in the 40's or 50's when, I was told, a bowl of noodle soup was 3 sataang, 5
sataang if you want it super-sized. I grew up in the 60's in a small
provincial town (with inexpensive first-rate education, and we never owned an
automobile, let alone being able to bribe the headmaster with one). I was
given allowance, one sa-lUng+ at a time, 3-4 times a day on the weekends and
could by /ka-nOOm+/ with one /sa-lUng+/! My parents would keep the 5
/sa-taang-/ and 10 /sa-taang-/ coins in a canister to hand out to the
beggars. We sometimes raided the coin canister (behind our parents backs, of
course) and collected enough to buy our /ka-nom+/ when we / mai" mii- tang-/.
Some farangs with strong sense of integrity might say, we Thais learn to
steal at an early age!
Regards,
Puangroi
Joris Goetschalckx
imba wrote in message <01bd93ed$c501be80$1a09eec3@default>...
>Correct me if I'm wrong : I thought both satang/sataang are correct :
short
>or long aa
>Then what about tang/taang : are both correct or not ?
>(I only remember having heard the short 'tang' version when being in
>Thailand. But then again, Saeng Thip was always omnipresent...)
Hi Imba,
Most of my Isaan friends say keb taang with long vowel aa. I even think
there is a high or falling tone quality about it! But when questioned
they seem to agree that tang (short a) is the correct version. Only I
have taken the habit of pronouncing it the Isaan way, this is why I
first wrote it "wrong" in this this thread...
Kind regards,
Lawrence T Dargan
Bloody amazing!
Started a convo re DUAY and end up:-
. watching dolphins by the sea
. omniscience
. paying people's bill
. travelling to Isaan
hehehe
was...@hotmail.com
In article <357db2ac...@news.image.dk>,
sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) wrote:
>
> Thanks Khun wasant, could you clearify "Collect Money Please".
> since please is not part of the sentence, or could it be a hidden
> agenda for "thanks I am leaving, please accept my payment also"
> or more correct "keb baht krup" ??.
Please is the soft-ending in the case of DUAY. It does not translate as
PLEASE directly. I just use the phrase to convey the meaning as the phrase
"kep tang" is too short and sound commanding. So by adding DUAY it is like
saying PLEASE ending the phrase. We cannot use Baht in this context because
baht is thought of only denomination why TANG is not thought of as a short
form of SATAANG but as a transformed meaning of MONEY in general. eg. kep
tang dai (I have found money) eg. kep tang wai yam yak (save money for rainy
day).
All these samples cannot be substituted with baht.
wasant
> Is it not to brute so say baht instead of the lower denomination of
> the baht.??, what is the perfect way to get the attention so one can
> pay the bill.??
> regards Torben Larsen
>
> On Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:07:23 GMT, was...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >In article <357d6dbf...@news.image.dk>,
> > sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Joris I think you made a mistake with the sound
> >> keb taang duay Isn't it starting with a gor sound and satang ??.
> >> regards Torben Larsen
> >
> > According to Official (Rajabhandhit) spelling, k stands for Gor Gai while
> >kh stands for Khor Khai. We don't use satang as it is a unit lower than
baht
> >(like cent) but use TANG as an abbreviation which means MONEY.
Literally, the
> >phrase mean "Collect Money Please".
> >
> > wasant
> >
Torben Larsen
Hi Lawrence , don't say SCT don't get around:-))
regards Torben Larsen
Vj (:..x5477..:)
In article <357db2ac...@news.image.dk>, sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) writes:
Use these terms when you want your check...
1. "Check bin!" This is the easiest to your pronunciation! (Actually,
it's "check bill" but they'd understand "bin" more than "bill"!)
2. "Geb Ngern" which means "collect money".
3. "Geb Tung" which means the same as the above.
4. Replace "Geb" by "Kid" for the above 2 can also do it! :)..
To me, I'd prefer saying .. "Nong, nong, kid ngern duay!"
Cheers,
Vj :).
> Thanks Khun wasant, could you clearify "Collect Money Please".
> since please is not part of the sentence, or could it be a hidden
> agenda for "thanks I am leaving, please accept my payment also"
> or more correct "keb baht krup" ??.
Torben Larsen
Thanks Khun Vj, I knew that but thanks for the info anyhow I also use
"Nong, nong, kid ngern duay!" but why use duay in the context ?., and
also if the waiter/waitress is older than me I feel uneasy to use nong
to attract attention but it works:-)
regards Torben Larsen
was...@hotmail.com
In article <3581b6ee....@news.image.dk>,
sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) wrote:
>
> Thanks Khun Vj, I knew that but thanks for the info anyhow I also use
> "Nong, nong, kid ngern duay!" but why use duay in the context ?., and
> also if the waiter/waitress is older than me I feel uneasy to use nong
> to attract attention but it works:-)
Duay in this context is to soften the sentence ending, making it less harsh
to the hearer, but the degree of politeness is not that of PLEASE, a little
less, I think. wasant
rinpoche
was...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Duay in this context is to soften the sentence ending, making it
> less harsh
> to the hearer, but the degree of politeness is not that of PLEASE, a
> little
> less, I think. wasant
>
I think so too. But then "chuay duay" can be used as a desperate cry for
help. Do you think it has a softening effect as well?
Perhaps Mr Larsen can also replace "nong" with "khun" if the
waiter/waitress is older than he is.
nick>ntspares@magna.com.au
Nong nong would be quite inappropriatte in the case of an older
waitress or waiter It would be much better to say Khun khrap! check
bin duay khrap or Khun khrap! gep ngern duay khrap or Khun khrap khit
ngern duay khrap even in the case of a younger waiter or waitress
Khun khrap.....would be better especially if you dont know the person
duay has few unrelated uses (as do many english words)and in this case
means the same as please
pkham...@hotmail.com
In article <6m6pjc$jvc$1...@news1.skynet.be>,
"Joris Goetschalckx" <joris.goe...@skynet.be> wrote:
>
> imba wrote in message <01bd9963$4615fca0$0609eec3@default>...
> >Why not use the /phii"/ instead of nOOng^ if they're older ? You must be
> >REALLY young to meet waitresses older than you in Thailand ;-)
>
> Hi Imba,
>
> No you shouldn't use phii with a waiter, because phii also might imply a
> relationship of respect and of acceptation (at least symbolically) of the
> slightly lower status of oneself compared to the addressee. This would
> only confuse the waiter as it is his or her function to serve you, and not
> the reverse. As farangs we might dismiss as being not politically correct
> these status considerations implied in the use of phii, but OTOH we should
> not make Thai people feel uneasy by our inappropriate use of their
> language. It is theirs. When in Rome do as the Romans do.
>
> I can think of exceptions to what I said, though: in the case you know the
> waiter personally (either you knew him before being in a customer/waiter
> relationship, or you are a very regular customer and have built up a
> friendship relation), then at some point you may begin calling him or her
> /phii"/. Normally you then use it in the form phii+name (like: Hi Phii
> Jit, how are you doing?). I suggest you wait until *asked* to use this
> pronoun and not begin on your own initiative. The use of phii, certainly
> by a farang, implies a certain degree of intimacy that may not be desired
> at the receiving end.
>
> Any comments from our Thai friends?
>
> Kind regards,
> Joris
>
When in doubt, you can just drop the pronoun, such as:
/geb' ngEn- duay" krab^(ka)/
/geb' ngEn- nOOi' krab^(ka)/.
If people use the pronoun in this case, it's to get the waiter/ress'
attention. For example. /NOOng^, nOOng^/ (wait until they make eye contact
with you to signal that they're paying attention to you), then follow with
either sentence above. So how do you get their attention without having to
decide wheter to call them /nOOng^/ or /phii"/? Just try to make eye contact
with them. Thai servers are much more attentive than their american
counterparts. Even in a pretty nice restaurant, they'd just whiz by you
without looking at you, unless they are ready for you but that's not the case
with the Thai servers.
Regards,
Puangroi
imba
Hi Goetschalck-x,
The only waitresses I know that are older than me, are friends of me - I
know them quite well. When talking to e.g. my friend Dam, I would say phii"
dam. You are correct about that. I don't regard her/them as waitresses, but
as the friends I know.
I am going back an searching my memory, as I thought phii" was OK for
adressing someone older who is serving you, but I can't really remember any
real "proof" of that.
In my mind I still see these images of the waiter in Thermae every night,
and girls ordering something. So I try to remember how they adressed him,
as he is certainly phii" or lung as far as age is concerned. But honestly,
I can't remember how any girl ever adressed him. And I think that anyone
who would claim (s)he can remember vividly a night in Thermae, never was in
Thermae in the first place ;-)
I am quite sure however that I did hear how the telephone operator in my
apartment was adressed as phii" by a girl phoning from my room (could have
had another reason, too long to explain). And I think I vaguely remember
how friends of mine adressed someone (not a waiter) - who was in a
professional serving position - as phii".
It's all kind of subconciously, and I wouldn't bet a fortune on it (just a
beer, to create an excuse for a drinking spree).
So I also want to know from a Thai : is phii" really appropriate or not in
adressing waitresses, servants, etc... ?
With kind regards,
Imba
Varodom Toochinda
pkham...@hotmail.com wrote:
: decide wheter to call them /nOOng^/ or /phii"/? Just try to make eye contact
: with them. Thai servers are much more attentive than their american
: counterparts. Even in a pretty nice restaurant, they'd just whiz by you
: without looking at you, unless they are ready for you but that's not the case
: with the Thai servers.
Hi K.PK,
There's some contradiction on your message above (or you're just being
sarcastic).
I only want to add some observation about /phii"/. My experience is some
Thai women want the growth of seniority level to end with /phii"/ forever.
When I graduated some 10 years ago I got my first job and many women there
encouraged me to call them /phii"/ even though some of them seemed older
than my mother. :) So Joris, /phii"/ spans a very broad range of ages. I
would say it would not do any harm, in contrast to ,say, you call Khun
Puangroi /pa"/. Nah, :)
(Maybe I'm /ha+ ruang" jeb' tour-/. /von- sa^ laew^ nai- dew-/ :)
Cheers,
Dew.
John Sharman
In article <6m6pjc$jvc$1...@news1.skynet.be>
joris.goe...@skynet.be "Joris Goetschalckx" writes:
> No you shouldn't use phii with a waiter, because phii also might imply a
> relationship of respect and of acceptation (at least symbolically) of the
> slightly lower status of oneself compared to the addressee. This would
> only confuse the waiter as it is his or her function to serve you, and not
> the reverse.
Based on my own observations, I don't think that's right. /phii"/
doesn't really carry any indication of social superiority beyond the
single factor of age. It's always wrong to call someone /phii"/ who is
clearly younger than you, unless you're talking to a monk, in which
situation /luang+ phii"/ does not depend on years, but otherwise (for
a Thai in any but the most formal of situations) it's okay.
> As farangs we might dismiss as being not politically correct
> these status considerations implied in the use of phii, but OTOH we should
> not make Thai people feel uneasy by our inappropriate use of their
> language. It is theirs. When in Rome do as the Romans do.
This raises a question which bothers me considerably. "As the Romans do .."
is not terribly well defined. Over the years I've managed to absorb not
only a fair amount of text-book Thai but also a modicum of slang and
dialect ... even a Chiang Haay accent. My question is whether it is
really appropriate for a farang to try to speak Thai literally as a Thai
would. I fear that it may sound faintly ridiculous. You know, the same
way that Krit tended to sound ridiculous when he used to post in a
quasi-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtle style.
Formerly I wanted to be able to speak authentic /kham- mUUang-/ with the
"r"s pronounced as "h"s and lots of /siang+ trii-/ converted to /siang+
thoo-/ and so forth. Now I'm fearful that this may be a silly affectation.
The fact is that I'm not a northern Thai /chaao- naa-/ and it's obvious
that I'm not, so why try to speak like one? Now I'm tending to the view
that I would do better to mimic the Thai newsreaders whom Khun Puangroi
so despises (their "english" accent may give me a good start) and aim
more for a grammatically correct standard Thai. Are there any Thai
scters willing to advance an opinion on this?
Second question: what's the best translation of the word /sa'lid^/ ?
It may be /phaa-saa+ nUUa+/ as I can't find it in the dictionary. It's
definitely not /sa'lid'/ which means "depressed" or "crestfallen" or
"sad"; I think that it must mean something like "silly" or "childish"
when applied to someone's behaviour. I deduce this from the frequency
with which I hear it from my wife. She only ever says it to naughty
children or to me.
--
Regards,
John Sharman
+====================================================================+
| John Sharman Internet: jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk |
| Tel/Fax: +44 (0)1603 452142 |
+====================================================================+
Joris Goetschalckx
Varodom Toochinda wrote
>... So Joris, /phii"/ spans a very broad range of ages. I
>would say it would not do any harm, in contrast to ,say, you call Khun
>Puangroi /pa"/. Nah, :)
Hi Dew,
I don't think PK would appreciate me calling her /paa"/ ;-)
And BTW neither would I like to be called lung by either of you... but of
course being called phii by you would be an honour for me.
More seriously and also as a follow-up to a post from Imba in this same
thread, I feel that there is a difference in this phii/nong calling when
between Thais and when a farang is involved. I have been called phii only by
people who clearly wanted to show, through exactly this name, that they felt
close. And I when have been asked to call people phii, it was clearly with the
same intention.
OTOH I can confirm Imba's experience that younger Thai people *do* call an
older waiter, receptionist or whatever phii, even if they didn't know each
other before. I somehow have the impression that it would be inappropriate for
a farang to use it in this way. Do you feel the same way about this?
Another point which we have not yet discussed is the asymmetry in phii/nong
use. What I want to say is this: when you call someone phii, you don't
necessarily expect to be called nong in return. In fact, although phii seems
to be used a lot between friends (also across sexes), I got the impression
that calling someone nong *between friends* implies more intimacy than the
phii calling does; I would even go further and I think that nong is almost
only used for your wife of girl-friend (again: strictly speaking of the usage
in existing friendship-like relations). Can you confirm this feeling?
BTW, this last point is a problem when you are like me often older than the
people you meet and make friends with. Even if they begin calling you phii,
there is no way to return the favour by calling them nong. What would you
suggest? Is there another possibility than just using only their nicknames?
mcro...@stjohn.stjohn.ac.th
In article <01bd9a23$871d0200$cd09eec3@default>,
"imba" <Id...@want.spam> wrote:
>
> Hi Goetschalck-x,
>
> The only waitresses I know that are older than me, are friends of me - I
> know them quite well. When talking to e.g. my friend Dam, I would say phii"
> dam. You are correct about that. I don't regard her/them as waitresses, but
> as the friends I know.
>
> I am going back an searching my memory, as I thought phii" was OK for
> adressing someone older who is serving you, but I can't really remember any
> real "proof" of that.
>
> In my mind I still see these images of the waiter in Thermae every night,
> and girls ordering something. So I try to remember how they adressed him,
> as he is certainly phii" or lung as far as age is concerned. But honestly,
> I can't remember how any girl ever adressed him. And I think that anyone
> who would claim (s)he can remember vividly a night in Thermae, never was in
> Thermae in the first place ;-)
Hmmm. Well, I won't say I remember it *vividly*, but I spend quite a lot of
time in the Thermae, especially in the early evening (10:00pm to midnight,
sometimes staying later), so my memories are clear. The girls address the
waiters as /phii"/; I think they address the manager as /lung+/ (tone?); and
they address the elderly, chubby, Chinese gentleman who seems to be one of
the owners as /baa+/. The reason I'm not sure about how they address the
manager is that he's usually at the cash counter, and I usually sit at the
other end of the room, but since his status is higher than the waiters the
honorific /lung+/ would be more appropriate.
I normally address waitresses as /nong/, because there are hardly any who are
not younger than me, but there are two in the Thermae who must have been
mama-sans when the place first opened thirty-some years ago -- I don't know if
they are older than me or not, but they are *scary*! I think the appropriate
form of address for them would be /je/ (not sure of the tone, think it's
falling), which means older sister, or /baa"/, aunt.
>
> I am quite sure however that I did hear how the telephone operator in my
> apartment was adressed as phii" by a girl phoning from my room (could have
> had another reason, too long to explain). And I think I vaguely remember
> how friends of mine adressed someone (not a waiter) - who was in a
> professional serving position - as phii".
>
> It's all kind of subconciously, and I wouldn't bet a fortune on it (just a
> beer, to create an excuse for a drinking spree).
>
> So I also want to know from a Thai : is phii" really appropriate or not in
> adressing waitresses, servants, etc... ?
>
> With kind regards,
> Imba
>
--
Roger
The more I know about women,
the more I love my truck.
Varodom Toochinda
Joris Goetschalckx (joris.goe...@skynet.be) wrote:
: I don't think PK would appreciate me calling her /paa"/ ;-)
: And BTW neither would I like to be called lung by either of you... but of
: course being called phii by you would be an honour for me.
O.K. Phii Joris. Why not? I'm perfectly comfortable to call you with any
prefix you like, as long as your surname is omitted. :)
I think the topics we're discussing, as well as some questions John
Sharman raised in this thread, is rather subjective. I can only give my
viewpoint which may differ from other Thais. IMO you and John are most
right about /phii/. We do use it to show respect or give superiority to
the other person, but if he/she is significantly younger, as John said,
it's inappropriate. The person might think you're prachod-ing.
Salepersons are among the people who lavishly use /phii/ to you to sell
their products.
:
: More seriously and also as a follow-up to a post from Imba in this same
: thread, I feel that there is a difference in this phii/nong calling when
: between Thais and when a farang is involved. I have been called phii only by
: people who clearly wanted to show, through exactly this name, that they felt
: close. And I when have been asked to call people phii, it was clearly with the
: same intention.
:
: OTOH I can confirm Imba's experience that younger Thai people *do* call an
: older waiter, receptionist or whatever phii, even if they didn't know each
: other before. I somehow have the impression that it would be inappropriate for
: a farang to use it in this way. Do you feel the same way about this?
Depends on the waiter, of course, but I would say being Thai or Farang does
not really matter . Ex. you ran out of coke+ice for your Sangthip and
you called me /phii' (krub), kor+ coke kang+/ (VJ the Spooner, don't even
think about it. ;) ).If I were a waiter older than you I would see you
as a cute farang. But suppose I'm one who doesn't like to be addressed like
that (very rare) then it won't help either if the caller is a Thai.
In that case it's just your unlucky day. Indeed, the more important word
that *always* help is /krub/. It never hurts to add this magic word to
soften your conversation. /Phii' krub/,/Nong krub/.
But, well, I don't know, maybe I'm already acquainted with you people.
Could it be more intimidating to the real locals to see some white
giant called them /phii/ (?) Let's hear from other Thais like Khun Wasant
and PK.
:
: Another point which we have not yet discussed is the asymmetry in phii/nong
: use. What I want to say is this: when you call someone phii, you don't
: necessarily expect to be called nong in return. In fact, although phii seems
: to be used a lot between friends (also across sexes), I got the impression
: that calling someone nong *between friends* implies more intimacy than the
: phii calling does; I would even go further and I think that nong is almost
: only used for your wife of girl-friend (again: strictly speaking of the usage
: in existing friendship-like relations). Can you confirm this feeling?
Not really. You may go too far. :) I believe only because of verbosity
that nong is often excluded. See below.
: BTW, this last point is a problem when you are like me often older than the
: people you meet and make friends with. Even if they begin calling you phii,
: there is no way to return the favour by calling them nong. What would you
: suggest? Is there another possibility than just using only their nicknames?
:
Yes, I would suggest using only their nicknames, perhaps just because
Nong is unnecessarily wordy. You might use it from time to time to add
some brotherly feeling, but overusing makes your talk become too
melodramatic and may cause you to appear insincere to your friends (they
might think you have some intention for the sweet talk). Here again I
stress that using Khun with nicknames is uncommon, esp. among friends. :)
Cheers,
Dew.
P.S. To John Sharman. I have absolutely no idea about the /sa'lid^/
you're asking. (At first I thought it was a kind of fish). That's
obviously a specific word in the north. Hope someone could help. Maybe
someday when we meet you could teach me advanced Thai. :)
Joris Goetschalckx
Varodom Toochinda wrote
>Could it be more intimidating to the real locals to see some white
>giant called them /phii/ (?) Let's hear from other Thais like Khun Wasant
>and PK.
Hehe, you make it sound like I am a real yak... And I'm only 6'1". Is Dave
still around? But of course I'm all the more impressive because of my 90 kg
(only muscles, jing jing ;-)
Talking about yak and /phii"/. What classifier would you use for a yak? Same
as for /phii+/ (i.e. /ton-/)?
>might think you have some intention for the sweet talk). Here again I
This reminds me of the fact that whenever I heard /phii" jaa+/, it meant that
we were about to acquire a gold chain or something equally expensive ;-(
was...@hotmail.com
>
> OTOH I can confirm Imba's experience that younger Thai people *do* call an
> older waiter, receptionist or whatever phii, even if they didn't know each
> other before. I somehow have the impression that it would be inappropriate for
> a farang to use it in this way. Do you feel the same way about this?
I don't think so. A farang can use phii" if he can speak Thai and want to
show courtesy. Otherwise, you just use khun or leave the pronoun altogether.
>
> Another point which we have not yet discussed is the asymmetry in phii/nong
> use. What I want to say is this: when you call someone phii, you don't
> necessarily expect to be called nong in return. In fact, although phii seems
> to be used a lot between friends (also across sexes), I got the impression
> that calling someone nong *between friends* implies more intimacy than the
> phii calling does; I would even go further and I think that nong is almost
> only used for your wife of girl-friend (again: strictly speaking of the usage
> in existing friendship-like relations). Can you confirm this feeling?
It depends on how confortable you feel of using nong^ as it seems to be a
little bit intimacy than phii" as you have mentioned. But if you don't feel
easy, you have several alternatives, such as khun (for both sexes) or ther-
for female.
>
> BTW, this last point is a problem when you are like me often older than the
> people you meet and make friends with. Even if they begin calling you phii,
> there is no way to return the favour by calling them nong. What would you
> suggest? Is there another possibility than just using only their nicknames?
See above.
wasant
>
> Kind regards,
> Joris
>
> --
> Joris Goetschalckx
> http://users.skynet.be/sky98829
>
>
was...@hotmail.com
> Talking about yak and /phii"/. What classifier would you use for a yak? Same
> as for /phii+/ (i.e. /ton-/)?
Classifier for yak is ton- but phii which is human is khon-
> >might think you have some intention for the sweet talk). Here again I
>
> This reminds me of the fact that whenever I heard /phii" jaa+/, it meant that
> we were about to acquire a gold chain or something equally expensive ;-(
That's certainly true for entreaty to ask for favour, but what kind of
favour depends:)) wasant
Varodom Toochinda
pkham...@hotmail.com wrote:
:
: That's right, Joris. Otherwise, your name could be pronounced, /huu+ chiik'/
: (Torn-ear) instead of /huu+ chaang^/ (elephant ear) as Dew suggested! ;-)
: "Dew Tornear" has kinda Native Indian ring to it, doesn't it?
Then we can make Joris's ear a special dish like /huu+ cha-larm+/ (shark fin)
and save a shark.
Wow, you're one scary woman! Khun Torben, Do you still want to sit next
to her in the upcoming SCT meeting? Beware you could be Tornben within
seconds. :)
Cheers,
Dew.
Varodom Toochinda
Joris Goetschalckx (joris.goe...@skynet.be) wrote:
: Hehe, you make it sound like I am a real yak... And I'm only 6'1". Is Dave
: still around? But of course I'm all the more impressive because of my 90 kg
: (only muscles, jing jing ;-)
: Talking about yak and /phii"/. What classifier would you use for a yak? Same
: as for /phii+/ (i.e. /ton-/)?
Yes, the classifier for Yak is /ton-/. I guess also for /phii+/. You
confused K.Wasant because you subtlely changed from /phii"/ to /phii+/
without giving a signal.
I know 1 /ton-/ around here. He's also 6'1", but horizontally. :)
Dew.
Torben Larsen
I wonder if I should bring another kind of repellant with me when I
leave for Thailand this saturday,
I must ask you SCT how I can protect myself;-)
Cheers Torben
On 18 Jun 1998 14:01:05 -0500, vtoo...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Varodom
Varodom Toochinda
Joris Goetschalckx (joris.goe...@skynet.be) wrote:
: This reminds me of the fact that whenever I heard /phii" jaa+/, it meant that
: we were about to acquire a gold chain or something equally expensive ;-(
Phii" Joris jaa+,
Yes, the true disturbing fact, however futile the attempt might be. I expect
the person would cry /phii" jaa+/ until he/she ran out of voice and still
got only something comparable to Saengthip. ;)
Dew.
John Sharman
In article <6m9usf$gu2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> pkham...@hotmail.com writes:
> In article <898120...@norvic.demon.co.uk>,
> jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > This raises a question which bothers me considerably. "As the Romans do .."
> > is not terribly well defined. Over the years I've managed to absorb not
> > only a fair amount of text-book Thai but also a modicum of slang and
> > dialect ... even a Chiang Haay accent. My question is whether it is
> > really appropriate for a farang to try to speak Thai literally as a Thai
> > would.
>
> Why not?
Because most Thais speaking Thai in their normal everyday way are not
speaking very "good" Thai. Same goes for the average Englishman speaking
English.
> > I fear that it may sound faintly ridiculous.
>
> It won't, as long as you try to stay away from the text-book Thai kind of
> talking, you won't sound ridiculous.
Well, what put this question into my mind was an experience last year
when my wife and I were in Scotland and encountered a Thai waitress in a
Thai restaurant there who used the local dialect word "wee" instead of
the English word "little". It sounded really weird - Scottish dialect
words pronounced with a heavy Isan accent. Then I realised that I
probably sound equally weird to Thais when I attempt to speak their
language. On the other hand I have a Dutch friend who has lived here
for over 25 years; he speaks heavily accented but perfect English. His
grammar and depth of vocabulary are far better than those of the
majority of English people whom I meet. His English is very "correct"
and sounds great.
[..]
> A farang speaking /Gam- mUUang-/ with an english accent! ROTFL!
Exactly. That's just my point. "ROTFL" is precisely what I'm afraid of.
> >
> > Second question: what's the best translation of the word /sa'lid^/ ?
> > It may be /phaa-saa+ nUUa+/ as I can't find it in the dictionary. It's
> > definitely not /sa'lid'/ which means "depressed" or "crestfallen" or
> > "sad"; I think that it must mean something like "silly" or "childish"
> > when applied to someone's behaviour. I deduce this from the frequency
> > with which I hear it from my wife. She only ever says it to naughty
> > children or to me.
>
> I only heard /sa' lid^ dOOk'/ that seemed like it meant /dad' jaa- rit'/ -
> being pretentious border on ad nausium. Central Thais also use /gra' dA'/
> which I heard more from rural folks. With kids, central Thais usually use
> /gAA' dAAd'/ - precocious. I'm not sure if I interprete /sa' lid^ dOOk'/
> correctly because I'm not an expert in /UU" gam- mUUang-/ either.
I'll have to ask my wife next time she phones. It's ridiculous. I spend
months over there with dozens of people who could tell me but I don't
think to ask until I'm back over here with nobody (other than sct) to
enlighten me.
Joris Goetschalckx
Varodom Toochinda wrote
>Yes, the true disturbing fact, however futile the attempt might be. I expect
>the person would cry /phii" jaa+/ until he/she ran out of voice and still
>got only something comparable to Saengthip. ;)
No no Dew, I am not the cruel cold-hearted bastard you think. But I must admit
that in most cases when she was asking once again for some x-baat gold chain,
I tried to change this into the acquisition of nice sexy underwear... In this
way I would get something from it as well and it was also a lot cheaper. ;-)
Yoolid /chiib" chaa-lii^/ Huutchakalakasu
(must be the influence of my "Dutch period", haha)
Torben Larsen
/chiib" chaa-lii^/ Hi Joris is that why you offer Saengthip
at the beginning, for that impossible challenge;.))
regards Torben
Varodom Toochinda
Torben Larsen (sae...@image.dk) wrote:
: /chiib" chaa-lii^/ Hi Joris is that why you offer Saengthip
: at the beginning, for that impossible challenge;.))
: regards Torben
Now you and Joris lost me. What is /chiib" chaa-lii^/?
Cheers,
Dew.
P.S. To answer your previous question about repellent, so far our scientific
world still isn't advanced enough to find a guaranteed foolproof protection
against the threat of losing body part(s) by a Thai woman. ;)
Joris Goetschalckx
Varodom Toochinda wrote
>Now you and Joris lost me. What is /chiib" chaa-lii^/?
Aha, gotcha! Some Thai words are better known by Danes (right Torben?) than by
native Thai speakers! Let me make some small modifications to the
transcription and I think you'll get it (a letter between square brackets [x]
is one with kaaran above it).
Here it comes: Joris is a chiip Chaa[r]lii
I had added the tone marks purely to make it look more like a real Thai word
;-)
Got it?
See ya,
Joris
Ken
In article <6m9u7g$g8e$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, pkham...@hotmail.com says...
>
Hello sir.
re: 'pii chai' versus 'nong chai'
I would appreciate it if you could explain why I am encouraged to use the
Thai phrase of 'pii chai' to my wife's older brother....when the older
brother is actually younger then myself (5 years). He does not use the term
'nong chai' to me (unless in jest). Could you explain ?
regards.......Ken
Varodom Toochinda
Joris Goetschalckx (joris.goe...@skynet.be) wrote:
: Aha, gotcha! Some Thai words are better known by Danes (right Torben?) than by
: native Thai speakers! Let me make some small modifications to the
: transcription and I think you'll get it (a letter between square brackets [x]
: is one with kaaran above it).
:
: Here it comes: Joris is a chiip Chaa[r]lii
:
: I had added the tone marks purely to make it look more like a real Thai word
: ;-)
: Got it?
I give up! Still have no idea. Does Khun Puangroi know what our Mr.Huutcha
is talking about?
Dew.
I'm praying not to ever get lost in Holland the land of alien language. :)
Varodom Toochinda
: Torben Larsen (sae...@image.dk) wrote:
: : /chiib" chaa-lii^/ Hi Joris is that why you offer Saengthip
: : at the beginning, for that impossible challenge;.))
: : regards Torben
OK. Khun Torben and P"Joris. I got that in another thread. First I tended
to interpret /chiib"/ as the Thai word for "life" and that made me confused.
(/chiib" sa-lii+/ = life vanishes = dead, for example.)
K. Torben, I still couldn't get passed his surname though. Is it possible
that it came from the sound when we /jaam-/? (sniff?, don't know the
exact English word but you could guess it from the context I believe).
The Thai sound for /jaam'/ is /hudd^ chey"/. Maybe the Dutch's /jaam'/ is
/huut^ cha" kalakasu/ ? :)
Folks, somewhere in Holland or Belgium you might hear
Goetschalckx!
God bless you. (What's that in Dutch?)
Cheers,
Dew.
Torben Larsen
Hi Dew, the sentence is slang for /Kii neaw/ sorry about the tone
(lack of) well someone sticky, regarding repellant what if I use
armor, not amour do you think that helps ?:-)
"The Knight in shining armor"
Torben
On 18 Jun 1998 23:16:51 -0500, vtoo...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Varodom
Toochinda) wrote:
>Torben Larsen (sae...@image.dk) wrote:
>: /chiib" chaa-lii^/ Hi Joris is that why you offer Saengthip
>: at the beginning, for that impossible challenge;.))
>: regards Torben
>
>Now you and Joris lost me. What is /chiib" chaa-lii^/?
>
Torben Larsen
Hi Joris perhaps we should start a class teaching Thai for our Thai
friends;-))
Cheers Torben
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:40:40 +0200, "Joris Goetschalckx"
<joris.goe...@skynet.be> wrote:
>Varodom Toochinda wrote
>>Now you and Joris lost me. What is /chiib" chaa-lii^/?
>
>
>Aha, gotcha! Some Thai words are better known by Danes (right Torben?) than by
>native Thai speakers! Let me make some small modifications to the
>transcription and I think you'll get it (a letter between square brackets [x]
>is one with kaaran above it).
>
>Here it comes: Joris is a chiip Chaa[r]lii
>
>I had added the tone marks purely to make it look more like a real Thai word
>;-)
>Got it?
>
Torben Larsen
Great, I just love this trend, as long as I am not obliged to say one
specific persons surname, the sneeze sound is very very close to get a
Saengthip I guess, perhaps the wave sound is mistaken for the sneeze
and not the surname,-)
bless you in German is Prosit I think
I cant recall any word in Danish, we tend to use Prosit as well
Cheers Torben
On 19 Jun 1998 04:32:49 -0500, vtoo...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Varodom
Toochinda) wrote:
>: Torben Larsen (sae...@image.dk) wrote:
>: : /chiib" chaa-lii^/ Hi Joris is that why you offer Saengthip
>: : at the beginning, for that impossible challenge;.))
>: : regards Torben
>
mcro...@stjohn.stjohn.ac.th
In article <3589e...@oit.umass.edu>,
vtoo...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Varodom Toochinda) wrote:
>
> : Torben Larsen (sae...@image.dk) wrote:
> : : /chiib" chaa-lii^/ Hi Joris is that why you offer Saengthip
> : : at the beginning, for that impossible challenge;.))
> : : regards Torben
>
> OK. Khun Torben and P"Joris. I got that in another thread. First I tended
> to interpret /chiib"/ as the Thai word for "life" and that made me confused.
> (/chiib" sa-lii+/ = life vanishes = dead, for example.)
>
> K. Torben, I still couldn't get passed his surname though. Is it possible
> that it came from the sound when we /jaam-/? (sniff?, don't know the
> exact English word but you could guess it from the context I believe).
I believe the correct translation for /jaam-/ is "sneeze."
This is the nickname (I think -- would /jam-/ be a Thai name? I thought I
overheard her pronounce it with a short vowel) of a delightfully pretty
little girl who used to work the Thermae but seems to have moved to Pattaya
or Phu Ket.
> The Thai sound for /jaam'/ is /hudd^ chey"/. Maybe the Dutch's /jaam'/ is
> /huut^ cha" kalakasu/ ? :)
>
> Folks, somewhere in Holland or Belgium you might hear
>
> Goetschalckx!
> God bless you. (What's that in Dutch?)
>
> Cheers,
> Dew.
>
>
--
Roger
The only substitute for good manners
is fast reflexes.
Torben Larsen
It sounds like "to remember" /jam-/ do you think her name would be
"remember ?"
Cheers Torben
Varodom Toochinda
Torben Larsen (sae...@image.dk) wrote:
: It sounds like "to remember" /jam-/ do you think her name would be
: "remember ?"
: Cheers Torben
:
Never heard anyone named "remember" before. More common is /jam'/ (this
jam is pronounced like jam & bread, but with /mai^ ek'/ sound. It means
"bright" or "delightful").
Best wishes for your trip,
Dew.
P" Joris's name is worth /jam-/ but so tedious to /jam-/.
was...@hotmail.com
>
> re: 'pii chai' versus 'nong chai'
>
> I would appreciate it if you could explain why I am encouraged to use the
> Thai phrase of 'pii chai' to my wife's older brother....when the older
> brother is actually younger then myself (5 years). He does not use the term
> 'nong chai' to me (unless in jest). Could you explain ?
This is to signify that the brother-in-law is a some kin and older than
your wife. So pii"chai in this case is to signify that he is kin and is
pii"chai of your wife. Often when some Thais teach children, we want children
to imitate our pronoun calling, eg. I call my son as pii"ming^ when talking
to my daughter who is younger than my son. The same can be said about my
daughter which I often call her nong^mOOn' to signify that she is younger
sister. I also call my wife mae- when speaking to my children. This practice
continues even though they are now old enough to make distinction.
It is right that your younger brother-in-law does not call you nong^ as he
is younger than you and in relation to his younger sister, you are not
younger than her as well. Hope this is clear. I am getting round-about.
wasant
was...@hotmail.com
In article <358a14c9...@news.image.dk>,
sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) wrote:
>
> Hi Joris perhaps we should start a class teaching Thai for our Thai
> friends;-))
> Cheers Torben
I don't get it either. If you can input it in Thai alphabet, easy enough
these days, I bet that we most likely can:))
Torben Larsen
Thanks Dew, read the other trend, you made my day with Joris
see you in Thailand
Cheers Torben
On 19 Jun 1998 15:43:48 -0500, vtoo...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Varodom
pkham...@hotmail.com
In article <3589c...@oit.umass.edu>,
vtoo...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Varodom Toochinda) wrote:
>
> Joris Goetschalckx (joris.goe...@skynet.be) wrote:
> : Aha, gotcha! Some Thai words are better known by Danes (right Torben?) than by
> : native Thai speakers! Let me make some small modifications to the
> : transcription and I think you'll get it (a letter between square brackets [x]
> : is one with kaaran above it).
> :
> : Here it comes: Joris is a chiip Chaa[r]lii
> :
> : I had added the tone marks purely to make it look more like a real Thai word
> : ;-)
> : Got it?
>
> is talking about?
>
> Dew.
>
> I'm praying not to ever get lost in Holland the land of alien language. :)
>
>
I guess you haven't met too many cheapskates so you haven't learn this "cheap
charlie" slang. I have no idea where it comes from but the closest ones in
Thai I could think of are such as: /khii" tUUd'/ or the full expression
/khii" tUUd' nang+ niaaw+/; /khii" niaaw+/. You could probably think of
more words in Thai than me once you know what Joris and Torben are talking
about.
BTW, I still like the sound of the name "(Chief) Dew Tornear" a lot. It'll go
really well with your crossbow. ;-) (Don't try to drag the innocent bystander
such as Torben into this.)
See you later, alligator,
Puangroi
Torben Larsen
Khun wasant, I am working on it to write it in Thai as well, because I
think many things would be clearer if some of the special words is
written in Thai and not SCT language, see you in Thailand, this is my
last posting I am leaving now.
Cheers Torben
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:51:07 GMT, was...@hotmail.com wrote:
>In article <358a14c9...@news.image.dk>,
> sae...@image.dk (Torben Larsen) wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joris perhaps we should start a class teaching Thai for our Thai
>> friends;-))
>> Cheers Torben
>
> I don't get it either. If you can input it in Thai alphabet, easy enough
>these days, I bet that we most likely can:))
>
> wasant
>
pkham...@hotmail.com
In article <898192...@norvic.demon.co.uk>,
I have a friend whose american father has been living in Thailand longer than
he had lived in the US and speaks impeccable Thai and knows about Thai
culture and history much more than average Thais. Funny thing was I felt
funny talking to him in Thai and much more comfortable talking to him in
English eventhough his Thai is much better than my English at the time. I
found that I felt freer to express when I use English because my thoughts had
reached what you might called "glass ceiling" in Thai culture and found
better way to convey it in English. Besides, everybody speakes English with
"accent" anyway, it wouldn't sound so weird to do so.
>
> [..]
>
> > A farang speaking /Gam- mUUang-/ with an english accent! ROTFL!
>
> Exactly. That's just my point. "ROTFL" is precisely what I'm afraid of.
Now you can understand why my 8th grade classmates refused to practice
English pronunciation! For me, OTOH, I make a fool of myself all the time so
I'm pretty immuned to the "ROTFL". Speaking local dialects in Thai is really
tricky for me because in central or standard Thai, the tones are rigidly
fixed while in other dialects, they are much more fluid. This led me to
believe that old Thai is more fluid and later had more rigid rules of
pronunciation imposed upon arrivals of foreign influences such as Sanskrit
through Khmer. This is totally non- academic observation and I can't talk
very intelligently about it anyway, just an assumption form personal
observation.
The first time I learned local dialect was when I tried to learn to speak Lao
in Isan. I was intrigued that the tone of a word changed with different uses
and it took me a long time of observation before I could make any sense out
of it. After listening for about 6 months without saying a word but took
notes of it, I could speak much better than most central Thai people. Having
gone through learning foreign pronunciation system such as English by
praciticing a lot really help though. So I think farang has a better chance
than central Thai to learn /gam- mUUang-/ or Lao. Joking asides, I think you
should try to speak / gam- mUUang-/, I think you can do it although you might
be a butt of jokes for a while. It's not as bad as it may seems. Giving
your friends and family a genuine source of entertainment can be rewarding
experince sometimes. Believe me, I've "been there, done that!".
When I spoke Lao, Isan people I later met would believe that I was from Isan
as I liked to fool them. Then they'd beat their heads trying to figure from
which area of Isan I came from because I got such mixed-up Lao accent that
was not particular to any local areas. At least, they couldn't tell that I
was not from Isan, though. Alas, I've lost most of my Lao and little /gam-
mUUang-/ I learned from lack of use!
Regards, Puangroi ps This is probably my last post to SCT until I come back
from Thailand in mid- July. If you're replying to any of my posts, please
forward a copy to my email address at pkham...@hotmail.com to make sure
that I'll see it. Thanks.
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
John Sharman
> In article <898192...@norvic.demon.co.uk>,
> jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk wrote:
[..]
> I have a friend whose american father has been living in Thailand longer than
> he had lived in the US and speaks impeccable Thai and knows about Thai
> culture and history much more than average Thais.
But does he habitually speak dialect or good standard Thai?
> Funny thing was I felt
> funny talking to him in Thai and much more comfortable talking to him in
> English eventhough his Thai is much better than my English at the time.
One of the pieces of advice you find in language text books and tourist
guide books is the warning that English-speaking Thais may be offended
if you try to talk to them in Thai. Personally, I've not found this to
be the case. The nearest I've found to that was a Chinese pharmacist
who, after I'd spent a couple of minutes trying to explain my wife's
symptoms in Thai, remarked, "Some of us can speak English you know.
Let's try that." But he was smiling; not offended as far as I could see.
> I
> found that I felt freer to express when I use English because my thoughts had
> reached what you might called "glass ceiling" in Thai culture and found
> better way to convey it in English. Besides, everybody speakes English with
> "accent" anyway, it wouldn't sound so weird to do so.
This glass ceiling thing - do you agree that Thai is not as useful as
English when it comes to talking about abstract concepts with a high
degree of precision? I don't think it's simply a question of smaller
vocabulary. There is a kind of comfortable freedom in the Thai language
which makes it easier for a foreigner to speak but harder to convey
complicated meanings with exactitude. I've often wondered how Thai
students react when they come to learn symbolic logic. My guess is that
it could come as a bit of a shock.
> > [..]
> >
> > > A farang speaking /Gam- mUUang-/ with an english accent! ROTFL!
> >
> > Exactly. That's just my point. "ROTFL" is precisely what I'm afraid of.
>
> Now you can understand why my 8th grade classmates refused to practice
> English pronunciation!
Two different kinds of embarrassment. In one case the student is afraid
of being unable to do well that which is expected of them. In my case
I'm afraid that the casual listener will think I'm trying to do
something inappropriate.
> For me, OTOH, I make a fool of myself all the time so
> I'm pretty immuned to the "ROTFL".
People laughing at my mistakes is fine; I've learned a lot in such
situations. It's a good ice-breaker.
[..]
> The first time I learned local dialect was when I tried to learn to speak Lao
> in Isan. I was intrigued that the tone of a word changed with different uses
> and it took me a long time of observation before I could make any sense out
> of it. After listening for about 6 months without saying a word but took
> notes of it, I could speak much better than most central Thai people. Having
> gone through learning foreign pronunciation system such as English by
> praciticing a lot really help though. So I think farang has a better chance
> than central Thai to learn /gam- mUUang-/ or Lao. Joking asides, I think you
> should try to speak / gam- mUUang-/, I think you can do it although you might
> be a butt of jokes for a while. It's not as bad as it may seems. Giving
> your friends and family a genuine source of entertainment can be rewarding
> experince sometimes. Believe me, I've "been there, done that!".
I remember a completely surreal conversation I had with a brother-in-law
about 5 years ago. It lasted about 3 minutes. I thought that he was
telling me about problems with his head. It turned out that he was
talking about his wall. "Wall" should be /rua^/ but in Northern Thai
it's pronounced /hua"/. I mistook this for /hua+/ Result - total lack of
communication.
[..]
> Regards, Puangroi ps This is probably my last post to SCT until I come back
> from Thailand in mid- July. If you're replying to any of my posts, please
> forward a copy to my email address at pkham...@hotmail.com to make sure
> that I'll see it. Thanks.
Hope you have a good time. Pity there will be no opportunity to meet;
owing to pressure of work I've had to put off my next trip until
mid-August :-(
imba
John Sharman <jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk> schreef in artikel
<898409...@norvic.demon.co.uk>...
> This glass ceiling thing - do you agree that Thai is not as useful as
> English when it comes to talking about abstract concepts with a high
> degree of precision? I don't think it's simply a question of smaller
> vocabulary. There is a kind of comfortable freedom in the Thai language
> which makes it easier for a foreigner to speak but harder to convey
> complicated meanings with exactitude. I've often wondered how Thai
> students react when they come to learn symbolic logic.
Interesting, as I always had the same feeling about how Thai actually try
to convey specific complicated meanings,... Often told this to friends of
mine, but my knowledge of the language is too limited to dare to jump to
any conclusions, so I'm interested to hear other people's opinion about it.
Regards,
Imba