Tamilian primeminister
Tharini Ramakishnan
What do you all think of the possibility of a tamilian becoming
the prime minister of India? Do you think such a possibility exists?
What is your opinion on the debate in Anada vikatan (tamil weekly
magazine)?
Ganesh Gopalakrishnan
Vinay K. Kansal
Till a few years ago, people used to ask: Will a South Indian ever be
India's Prime Minister?
Jeez, the scope of this question has narrowed down further to the
possibility of a Tamilian PM.
I wonder why are some people belonging to particular state(s) so hung
up on this issue.
--
***********************************************************************
Vinay K. Kansal e-mail : kan...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Deptt. of Economics
Indiana University
U31...@uicvm.uic.edu
>> What do you all think of the possibility of a tamilian becoming
>> the prime minister of India? Do you think such a possibility exists?
Does it matter?
-Arun Hariharan.
Ravisankar M. S
: Hi folks,
When TN finds it extremely difficult to find a good candiate (
especially tamil canditate ) for the post of chief minister, it is
hopeless to discuss about PM.
After Kamarajar, there is big dearth for good leaders in TN.
kooth_thadi ellam nataLa vanthuvittathaal, inRu
naadE kooththadukirathu!
--
Hunter of the East
Arvind Nair
In recent memory Tamil Nadu seems to have produced:
0. non-Tamilian matinee idol turned CM.
1. matinee idol turned CM with fascist tendencies and
given to wearing silly capes.
2. Tamil chauvinist with likely ties to the LTTE.
3. (Dr.) Subramaniam Swamy.
Given these the prospect of a Tamilian PM is quite distant.
Arvind
Meenaradchagan Vishnu
Arvind Nair <ann...@med.umich.edu> wrote:
>
>In article <94094.142...@auvm.american.edu>, Tharini Ramakishnan <TR0...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>|> Hi folks,
>|> What do you all think of the possibility of a tamilian becoming
>|> the prime minister of India? Do you think such a possibility exists?
>|> What is your opinion on the debate in Anada vikatan (tamil weekly
>|> magazine)?
>
>In recent memory Tamil Nadu seems to have produced:
>
>0. non-Tamilian matinee idol turned CM.
>1. matinee idol turned CM with fascist tendencies and
> given to wearing silly capes.
>2. Tamil chauvinist with likely ties to the LTTE.
>3. (Dr.) Subramaniam Swamy.
You must have forgotten the following:
1. Also Tamil Nadu produced fantastic religious goondas (read
Sankaracaryas) who when they die had to have their skull broken open
by striking it with a coconut to release their soul so that the poor
thing can reach heaven.
2. Tamil Nadu has produced, as per Vedic world view of "inferiority of
female kids" efficient female kid-killers. They use a variety of
innovative methods.
3. Tamil Nadu has the largest number of venomous journalists who
belong to a fascist supremacist group (read Brahminists) who never
stop undermining Tamil and Tamils.
4. These fascist supremacists cry when Finnish scientist declare their
scientific research finding that Indus valley civilization is
Dravidian.
5. These fascist supremacists locked Tamil hymns for many centuries.
6. These supremacists give brahmin blood to Valluvar with mean spirited
stories. viz "Valluvar's mum got screwed by a brahmin bad boy"-type
stories.
7. These nazis burnt Madurai Tamil library during the turn of the century.
8. These Indo-nazis brought the inhuman varna system to TN.
9. These Indo-klu-klux-klaners interpolated many Tamil texts and destroyed
many others.
10.These foxes who are used to setting one on another got real mad
when it did not work for the LTTE and the battle-hardened people of TE.
>Given these the prospect of a Tamilian PM is quite
distant.
Yes. TN has no chance as long these fascist and racial supremacists are
in control.
> >Arvind
Meenan Vishnu
Amit Puranik
*******************************************************************************
GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR DUDE ....;-))
Keep it up
James S. Kingsley
Sekariapuram) says:
>
>Who cares whether it is Tamilian or Punjabi or Bihari... as long as
>he/she is NOT CORRUPT and is an able leader to lead our country
>away from all the problems that we see/experience today and place
>our country in the economic forefront.
>
The problem is that we are not likely to see a Tamilian elected
as PM in the near future, even if that person was eminently qualified
and un-corrupt. For the same reason that the US isn't likely to have
a black president in the near future.
>Also, buddy we need to do a lot of work within TN by first
>throwing out the cinematic clowns running our state. We need
Same problem - cinematic clowns are the ones with the clout, the
popularity and the votes.
>a progressive party (which doesn't rely on votes by increasing
>the reservation from 75% to 100%) unlike the rotten DMKs and
>ADMKs. Thing to talk about in SCT.
I agree - people need to start talking about this. IMHO, our whole
political system could use a shake-up. :)
Jim
Raja
|> In article <2nqe76$q...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
|> Arvind Nair <ann...@med.umich.edu> wrote:
|> >
|> >In article <94094.142...@auvm.american.edu>, Tharini Ramakishnan <TR0...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
|> >|>
|> >|>
|>
|> You must have forgotten the following:
|>
|>
|> Meenan Vishnu
|>
Till 1960's TN had capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped into the TN politics,
the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
Periyaar, who f#!*ed his house-maid, is being worshipped in TN. I really am wondering as to what he did for TN cause, apart from looting temples, breaking idols, teasing females (especially fair ones). He used foul language in his speech to attract the front benchers. Several statues were erected in TN to *honor* this third rated bugger. He don't even know
what was *Science and Technology* but if you go to Madras, you can see Periyaar Science and
Technology Museum.
Anna, who when asked whether he had any relation with Actress Banumathi, he openly said in
public, that "Naan mutrum thuranda munivanum alla, Aval padi thaanda paththiniyum alla"
(Translated in Eng: "Neither am i an ascetic nor she is a virgin" ). If this is how a CM
(Yep Anna was CM of TN in late 60's) talks in public then imagine his private life. Again this
fellow has got plenty of stautes in differrnt postures [sitting, standing, pissing, bathing and of course reading too - who knows what book he reads, outside cover may have Thirukkural,
inside there might be Saroja Devi's (a tamil porn writer) book] spread across TN. Univs,
Colleges, Transport, Districts etc are all named after this shit of a guy.
Mu.Karunanidhi, has got three wives, which he *rotates* every day. After his ouster as
CM in 1990, there were rumors that he married a 20 year old Brahms girl, on the advice of an
astologer, so as to get back to the CM chair. This is the guy who called Jayalalitha as
prostitute in the Assembly. One of his right hand, by name Duraipandian, pulled Jayalalitha
Sari in the Assembly. Mu.Ka had a nice *view* of our current TN CM. Imagine, at the age of 65, Mu.Ka has so much *temper* in him!
Ki.Veeramani, he is one those front bencher at Periyaar Meetings. After Periyaar's death,
all the money from Periyaar account ( got by looting) were transferred to Ki.Veeramani's in the name of his party viz. Dravida Kazhagam. This guy was making helluva noise all these
days. Suddenly one fine morning he stopped his shouting. The reason has it that he was given
(or is it shown?) *something* by Jayalalitha.
Until chimps like Mu.Ka, Ki.Veeramani and his whole lot of front-brenchers exist, as everyone
say, there is no chance of Tamilian becoming a PM.
Raja
|> Raja (reg...@bnr.ca) wrote:
|> : In article <Cnt39...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) writes:
|> : |> Meenan Vishnu
|> : |>
|>
|> : Till 1960's TN had capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
|> : maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped into the TN politics,
|> : the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
|> : Periyaar, who f#!*ed his house-maid, is being worshipped in TN. I really am wondering as to what he did for TN cause, apart from looting temples, breaking idols, teasing females (especially fair ones). He used foul language in his speech to attract the |> front benchers. Several statues were erected in TN to *honor* this third rated bugger. He don't even know
|> : what was *Science and Technology* but if you go to Madras, you can see Periyaar Science and
|> : Technology Museum.
|>
|> : Anna, who when asked whether he had any relation with Actress Banumathi, he openly said in
|> : public, that "Naan mutrum thuranda munivanum alla, Aval padi thaanda paththiniyum alla"
|> : (Translated in Eng: "Neither am i an ascetic nor she is a virgin" ). If this is how a CM
|> : (Yep Anna was CM of TN in late 60's) talks in public then imagine his private life. Again this
|> : fellow has got plenty of stautes in differrnt postures [sitting, standing, pissing, bathing and of course reading too - who knows what book he reads, outside cover may have Thirukkural,
|> : inside there might be Saroja Devi's (a tamil porn writer) book] spread across TN. Univs,
|> : Colleges, Transport, Districts etc are all named after this shit of a guy.
|>
|> : Mu.Karunanidhi, has got three wives, which he *rotates* every day. After his ouster as
|> : CM in 1990, there were rumors that he married a 20 year old Brahms girl, on the advice of an
|> : astologer, so as to get back to the CM chair. This is the guy who called Jayalalitha as
|> : prostitute in the Assembly. One of his right hand, by name Duraipandian, pulled Jayalalitha
|> : Sari in the Assembly. Mu.Ka had a nice *view* of our current TN CM. Imagine, at the age of 65, Mu.Ka has so much *temper* in him!
|>
|> : Ki.Veeramani, he is one those front bencher at Periyaar Meetings. After Periyaar's death,
|>
|>
^^^^^^^^^
|> Check who is the mother/father of your Jayalalitha whom TAMBRAS considers
|> their representative?
Do u think just those four chimps + you make up TN. Talk sense maan| I don't want to
check the father/mother of Jayalalitha. May be you know more about. Anda night avangalakku
vilakku pudichiya?
|>
|> Check out for the character of skc and your people etc. if you are so
^^^^^^^^^^^
|> worried about personal details of people.
Personal details matter when people come into public. What is this 'your people'. I am
100% tamil unlike you people who ran out of TN when it had problems.
|>
|> Finally your character. Check on it before you talk about
|> pornography for you seem to know more about it than anna or
|> periyar.
Is periyar or anna related to you? Why are you getting so annoyed when i talk
about them as if they are some .... to you.
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
Vijay Fafat
>In article <CnuLM...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
[a thousand lines of third and fourth attributions deleted]
> Do u think just those four chimps + you make up TN.
> Talk sense maan|
learn editing, maan|. And punctuation, perhaps. Especially when
the end result of all the digging thru is a mess of lines like above.
FFT
Raja
Don't just poke into just every other group and dump your garbage. Okay. Are you
from TN? You know their problems? If not, keep your ass mouth shut. Okay. Don't write
articles just for the sake 'dumping' here and there. All of your articles make me
sick, especially that f*!#ing 'I love you Fafat' from one Shoba. Do you think this
as your personal group to dump some of your personal garbage?
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
Vijay Fafat
> Don't just poke into just every other group and dump your garbage. Okay. Are you
> from TN? You know their problems? If not, keep your ass mouth shut. Okay. Don't write
You still haven't learnt editing maan| And now there's some
froth at the corners, too...not good for health, you know.
btw, did you have trouble forming a collage of plagiarized flames?
Highly unimaginative, too, I must submit.
FFT
"Rile him, Scotty, rile him"
Raja
|> In article <2o1312$4...@bmerha64.bnr.ca> reg...@bnr.ca (Raja) writes:
|> > Don't just poke into just every other group and dump your garbage. Okay. Are you
|> > from TN? You know their problems? If not, keep your ass mouth shut. Okay. Don't write
|>
|>
|> You still haven't learnt editing maan| And now there's some
It seem's you are still in the stone age. Otherwise you won't
be using VT100 Terminal for viewing this. Come on maan!
Ask your boss to get you a Workstation so that you can use
X-Windows instead of this 25 Line by 80 Column junk.
Meenaradchagan Vishnu
>In article <Cnt39...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) writes:
>|> In article <2nqe76$q...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
>|> Arvind Nair <ann...@med.umich.edu> wrote:
>|> >
>|> >In article <94094.142...@auvm.american.edu>, Tharini Ramakishnan <TR0...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>|> >|>
>|> >|> <Stuff Deleted>
>|> >|>
>|>
>|> You must have forgotten the following:
>|>
>|> <Garbage Dumped>
>|>
>|> Meenan Vishnu
>|>
>
>Till 1960's TN had capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
>maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped into the TN politics,
>the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
[stuff deleted ... ]
I agree with most of what you wrote except what you wrote about
Periyaar. The hardcore brahmins simply dislike him because he exposed
the brahmins' exploitation of the society in the name of god and other
celestial goodies and made people aware of these vices.
Also as far as the pre-60 CM's what you say may be true of Kamaraja but not
of Rajaji who was a brahmanical supremacist pig. I know he got his daughter
married to a non-brahmin but that does not change his views on varna.
>Periyaar, who f#!*ed his house-maid, is being worshipped in TN. I really am wondering as to what he did for TN cause, apart from looting temples, breaking idols, teasing females (especially fair ones). He used foul language in his speech to attract the front benchers. Several statues were erected in TN to *honor* this third rated bugger. He don't even know
>what was *Science and Technology* but if you go to Madras, you can see Periyaar Science and
>Technology Museum.
It is true that Periyaar took a younger woman as his second wife. IMO
this is not as bad a crime as the brahminical media portrays it.
Before you write "he don't (sic) even know ... science and technology ..."
you must read his works on rationalism and the merits of scientific enquiry
for the growth of human. This was counter to the Brahmanical view that human
beings are at the mercy of some celestial being(s).
His contribution to TN is endless: for example he started a women's
engineering college which has educated many women in the Engineering
field.
>Mu.Karunanidhi, has got three wives, which he *rotates* every day. After his ouster as
>CM in 1990, there were rumors that he married a
20 year old Brahms girl, on the advice of an
^^^^^^^^^^^
>astologer, so as to get back to the CM chair. This is the guy who called Jayalalitha as
This is interesting. I see ... so this is how the brahminists are able to
control him the way they had been.
>days. Suddenly one fine morning he stopped his shouting. The reason has it that he was given
>(or is it shown?) *something* by Jayalalitha.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Very true indeed.
>Until chimps like Mu.Ka, Ki.Veeramani and his whole lot of front-brenchers exist, as everyone
>say, there is no chance of Tamilian becoming a PM.
Periyaar started the anti-brahmanism campaign. Now the path he envisioned is
in shambles due to the selfishness of successive leaders culminating in the
publich woman called Jayalalitha.
Now instead of asking "Can a Tamil become the PM of India ?", We are forced to
ask "Can a Tamil ever become the CM of TN ?" :-(
Meenan Vishnu
Thathachari
quality) that has been flowing under the bridge(Napiers bridge?)
brings to mind a song by John Lennon(ex-Beatle for the un-informed).
The songs name is 'Give Peace a chance'. What has happened has
happened. Why should we dissect the politics/sex habits/money
matters etc of people who have died. Are we not wasting time
doing all this? Calling people names and what not.
Agreed that we can learn from the mistakes made in past. But the
purpose is lost when a person gets involved emotionally with the
past. The past should be looked at as it was and not as what was
good and what was bad. Instead of talking about which -ism is
better that which other -ism let us pool our energies in pursueing
a path of love where everybody respects everybody else as a human being.
The main problem with this is of course that of passing the buck on.
But what it takes is just plain honesty on the part of every individual.
Instead of looking up to a corrupt leader and trying to justify his/her
actions(which are mostly based on selfish designs) why don't we just
accept that the leaders themselves were/are human.
I recall an interesting street paly that I saw televised on DoorDarshan
(Tholai Katcchi)-
A group of party 'thondars' are campaigning for their respective
parties. Their leaders are some mundane things like(let us say)
shirts(Chattai). The campaign begins with shouts of-
Enggal chattai Nallathu, Engal Chattai Periyathu etc.
But as the campaign heats up the shouts turn to-
Avanga Chattai Kettathu, Avanga Chattai Siriyathu, Avanga Chattaiyil
oru ottai etc.
The moral-Let us not try to call others names. A lot of energy/time
is wasted in pointing out the mistakes in others policies/beliefs.
IMHO the world will definitely be a better place if we just
talked to the "Man in the Mirror(Copyright Jackson)". This is
beginning to sound too much like an advise(or is it advice?)
so I guess I should stop here.
Eppadikku
Thaths
--
All we are saying...
is give peace a chance.
--Lennon
Joe Gangadharan
In a previous article, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) says:
[.....deleted]
>It is true that Periyaar took a younger woman as his second wife. IMO
>this is not as bad a crime as the brahminical media portrays it.
>
>Before you write "he don't (sic) even know ... science and technology ..."
>you must read his works on rationalism and the merits of scientific enquiry
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In the April 1-7, 1994 issue of the tamil magazine kunkumum
(page 41), Periyaar is quoted as saying that white people from
colder countries are less intelligent than people from warmer
climates, like India. Sounds neither rational nor scientific!
--
Joe Gangadharan
ad...@freenet.carleton.ca
Raja
|> In article <2nul3d$6...@bmerha64.bnr.ca>, Raja <reg...@bnr.ca> wrote:
|> >In article <Cnt39...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) writes:
|> >|> In article <2nqe76$q...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
|> >|> Arvind Nair <ann...@med.umich.edu> wrote:
|> >|> >
|> >|> >In article <94094.142...@auvm.american.edu>, Tharini Ramakishnan <TR0...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
|> >|> >|>
|> >|> >|> <Stuff Deleted>
|> >|> >|>
|> >|>
|> >|> You must have forgotten the following:
|> >|>
|> >|> <Garbage Dumped>
|> >|>
|> >|> Meenan Vishnu
|> >|>
|> >
|> >Till 1960's TN had capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
|> >maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped into the TN politics,
|> >the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
|>
|> [stuff deleted ... ]
|>
on the books written ON periyar. You talk about periyaar exposing
'exploitation of the society in the name of god'. But he himself
was a great Rama devotee. You know that? He was a typical example
of "Dr.Jekyl and Mr.Hyde" ( Veshadaari in Tamil). All day he'll
curse god, break idols, glance females. All night he would pray
God. Your immediate query to me would "Have you seen that?". My
response is "I have references in the form of articles in the magazine
like Kumudam".Do you still call this guy a principled guy.
Again "your" periyaar is not a pure Dravidian/Tamilian. How can a
Dravidian, born and brought up in TN have that FAIR color as Periyaar.
This arguement holds good to most of the Brahmins (who are Fairer than
native Dravidians). So talks like 'He is a pure Tamizh' and "He gave
his life and soul for Tamizhs" are idiotic.
Your view that only "Brahmins exploit the society in the
name of god" is not true. You go and see in Mariamman Temples
of TN (especially that Mel Maruvathur Temple). You know Bangaru Adigalar?
He is not a Brahmin and most of the devotees to that temple are not
Brahmins. A couple of years back there was a big rally (One of the biggest
in the history of TN) organized by him in the name of God. You know
who was the chief guest in that rally? One of the front-bencher of
Periyaar "Paatashala" Viz. Nedunchezian. That Adigalar and Nedunchezian,
it seems, have 95% of the stake worth hundreds of crores. The temple
has Engg Colleges and Medical Colleges (Yep! Only Capitation Fees)
attached to it.
Right now i have some urgent work. Thats why i'm stopping half-way.
I'll enlighten you the *greatness* of *your* idiotic periyaar later on.
..
|> I agree with most of what you wrote except what you wrote about
|> Periyaar. The hardcore brahmins simply dislike him because he exposed
|> the brahmins' exploitation of the society in the name of god and other
|> celestial goodies and made people aware of these vices.
|>
|> Also as far as the pre-60 CM's what you say may be true of Kamaraja but not
|> of Rajaji who was a brahmanical supremacist pig. I know he got his daughter
|> married to a non-brahmin but that does not change his views on varna.
|>
|> >Periyaar, who f#!*ed his house-maid, is being worshipped in TN. I really am wondering as to what he did for TN cause, apart from looting temples, breaking idols, teasing females (especially fair ones). He used foul language in his speech to attract the f|> ront benchers. Several statues were erected in TN to *honor* this third rated bugger. He don't even know
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
TN elected more Cong (I) than any other state to
the parliament. There is no single minister in the
central cabinet. The guys cannot stand up for themselves.
How can they represent the state. question of
tamil primeminister can arise only if they can stand
up and be ministers at least.
slaves represent tamils. they can only chaffe
the feet of Jaya.
anban
kathir
: --
: Hunter of the East
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: |> Why are you unleashing your hatred against thamizhs in the net.
: ^^^^^^^^^
: |> Check who is the mother/father of your Jayalalitha whom TAMBRAS considers
: |> their representative?
: Do u think just those four chimps + you make up TN. Talk sense maan| I don't want to
: check the father/mother of Jayalalitha. May be you know more about. Anda night avangalakku
: vilakku pudichiya?
:
: |>
: |> Check out for the character of skc and your people etc. if you are so
: ^^^^^^^^^^^
: |> worried about personal details of people.
: Personal details matter when people come into public. What is this 'your people'. I am
: 100% tamil unlike you people who ran out of TN when it had problems.
:
: |>
: |> Finally your character. Check on it before you talk about
: |> pornography for you seem to know more about it than anna or
: |> periyar.
:
: Is periyar or anna related to you? Why are you getting so annoyed when i talk
: about them as if they are some .... to you.
: |>
: |> anban
: |> kathir
Periyar is related to me as much as you are related to
Jayalalitha and Janaki who fell on the dead body to
loot money. How is Jaya related to you.
Read this. Your association speaks for itself.
As long as you flame periyar you flame the people
of TN because everybody who came to power used
his name.
You shout at MK. Who cares. How did
you find out about his 20 yr old keep. Unless
you were a maaama.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
There are people who lament that the 'barely three percent', innoce
nt and
peace-loving Brahmins have no hold in Tamil Nadu and also that Brah
minism is
dead in TN. The following letter appeared in 'tambras' (June 1991,
muzhakkam
11), the official organ of the Tamil Nadu Brahmins Association and
it was
written by its president after the 1991 TN assembly elections in co
nnection
with Jeyalalitha's new government.
Main points of the letter (translated from Tamil, I can reprodu
ce the Tamil
text in ADAMI scheme if somebody wants) are as follows:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
"As far as Tamil Nadu is concerned, today's political change h
as given a
confidence that the sufferings experienced so far by the Brahmins
will not
recur again. It is our duty to use this opportunity in favour of o
ur society
as much as possible.
Above all, we should utilize this government in whatever possi
ble ways for
the welfare of our society, especially, whether it is educational i
nstitution
or in establishing businesses with the government, we should work t
irelessly
for the developement of our community.
AT ANY COST IT IS BETTER THAT OUR EFFORTS SHOULD NOT BE OPEN.
I FEEL THAT
WE SHOULD HANDLE THIS VERY CAREFULLY. After a long time, we have g
ot a chief
minister from our caste. WHETHER OTHERS SAY OR NOT, IT IS ONLY A B
RAHMIN
REGIME. (emphasis mine)
I think that the assembly members from our caste should not at
tend our
organisational activities right now. They should participate in ou
r functions
only when other caste MLAs start attending our functions. "
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
anban
kathir
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: Periyaar "Paatashala" Viz. Nedunchezian. That Adigalar and Nedunchezian,
: it seems, have 95% of the stake worth hundreds of crores. The temple
: has Engg Colleges and Medical Colleges (Yep! Only Capitation Fees)
: attached to it.
nedunchezhian will sell himself for $1.00. He is
not from any school. He is from school of sellers
and feet lickers.
anban
kathir
: |>
: |> Meenan Vishnu
Achar Ramachandra
------------------------
It is not the case with only Jaya's era........
The politics at TN was always around the cini-stars, whoever
went againist the super-star politician(!) had no political
career to continue with. Shall I remind u that MGR ruled TN
being at hospital for nearly a year or two!!
People of the land may n't be comletely equated with the politicians
they are ruled by. Most times u find that politicins are
opportunistic, and when the things go beyond the tolerance
level, changes are bound to happen.
Regards.....Achar
---------------------------
: anban
Raja
|> Raja (reg...@bnr.ca) wrote:
|> : |>
|> : |>
|> Periyar is related to me .....
|> < Junk Deleted >
Now that u have come out as, Periyaar being related to you I don't want to comment further, on that. Coming back to your reference on TAMBRAS letter, I appreciate your sincere investigation on that matter. But then, what is wrong in LOBBYING. It's here, there, everywhere. FYI each and every caste in TN has an association like Vanniaar Sangam, Dalit Sangam, TAMBRAS ... to name a few. Each and everyone of these associations lobby with the party in power to get sops. That ain't wrong, buddy. It seems you are
suffering from a big Identitiy Crisis and that too you seem to have a lot of inferiority complex. Otherwise you won't bash brahmins *alone* for the ills of TN. Brahmins were powerful once upon a time (During British Rule). But after that I don't see them wielding any power or trying to usrp power. If you point RV, Cho, Jayalalitha et.al, they are a meagre percenetage of what others are doing to TN. If you take history of TN after
independence till 1991, can you point out a Brahmin being a CM. All CMs of TN viz.
Bhaktavatsalam, Kamaraj, Anna, Mu.ka are not Brahmins. Then how do you justify that they wield power everywhere? Brahmins being minority in TN are
discrimiated in the field of Education. Othewise where in the World can you see
*quota* based on castes. Again if you see that caste list ( I have seen it) there
are more than 200 of them.
Let me quote one instance how caste list has been taken for toss in TN. One of
my friend was a Saiva Vellala by birth. He was dark in complexion and can be easily identified to be a non-brahmin (Becoz according to one your earlier article, fairer ones are always Brahmins ). But his caste was in the FC (Forward
Caste). Just he went to the Tehsildar Office. Gave *something*. Changed his caste name to *Thuluva Vellala* which was in BC (Backward Caste) list. But alas Brahmins
can't even do that (not that they don't do such thing. After all they are also
humans and want to survive in this survival-of-the-fittest-world), becoz of their
complexion (mostly being fair). They have what is called as *Fear* more than any body else.
I dont know what you mean by *Brahminism is not dead in TN*. First tell me
what is *brahminism*. You tend to talk like Periyaar( ah i forgot that u are
realted to Periyaar. athey raTHamiLa athAn). Let me tell you about your periyaar. During interviews, Periyaar when questioned "En pArpanargalai ethirkirErgal?", your idiotic Periyaar replied "pArpanargalai ethirkaviLai, pArpaniyaTHaithAn ethirkirOm". Then according to his logic (and yours too!)
there should be a suffix "-ism" for every caste in TN like vellalaism, mudaliarism, pillaimarism et.al
First get your fundas about TN straight maan. Go thru the "Cause and Effect" relationship. Otherwise according to your theory we'll have the
following cause-effect relation:
Cause Effect
------ ------
Brahmins Minority in TN -> CM of TN is Jayalalitha
|
V
But Majority Votes needed to become CM.
Jaya got 45%
|
V
45% are Brahmins and 55% other castes
put together
|
V
Brahmins Majority in TN
Final equation is: Minorty = Majority
Q.E.D
Meenaradchagan Vishnu
>In article <CnwG...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) writes:
>|> In article <2nul3d$6...@bmerha64.bnr.ca>, Raja <reg...@bnr.ca> wrote:
>|> >In article <Cnt39...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) writes:
>|> >|> In article <2nqe76$q...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
>|> >|> Arvind Nair <ann...@med.umich.edu> wrote:
>|> >|> >
>|> >|> >In article <94094.142...@auvm.american.edu>, Tharini Ramakishnan <TR0...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>|> >|> >|>
>|> >|> >|> <Stuff Deleted>
>|> >|> >|>
>|> >|>
>|> >|> You must have forgotten the following:
>|> >|>
>|> >|> <Garbage Dumped>
>|> >|>
>|> >|> Meenan Vishnu
>|> >|>
>|> >
>|> >Till 1960's TN had capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
>|> >maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped into the TN politics,
>|> >the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
>|>
>|> [stuff deleted ... ]
>|>
> I feel you have to stop reading books BY periyaar. Instead, concentrate
> on the books written ON periyar. You talk about periyaar exposing
I have never read any books written by Periyar. All are books written by
westerners on him. The latest was a book published in Sweden on him.
> 'exploitation of the society in the name of god'. But he himself
> was a great Rama devotee. You know that? He was a typical example
This is completely false. He had so much dislike for Rama. He burned
effulgies of Rama. He even wrote a book "Ramayana: A true reading" which is
translated into almost all Indian languages. In his rendering, Rama is the
villain.
> of "Dr.Jekyl and Mr.Hyde" ( Veshadaari in Tamil). All day he'll
> curse god, break idols, glance females. All night he would pray
> God. Your immediate query to me would "Have you seen that?". My
> response is "I have references in the form of articles in the magazine
> like Kumudam".Do you still call this guy a principled guy.
So much for the credibility of Kumudham, if what you say is truth and nothing
but the truth.
>
> Again "your" periyaar is not a pure Dravidian/Tamilian. How can a
> Dravidian, born and brought up in TN have that FAIR color as Periyaar.
> This arguement holds good to most of the Brahmins (who are Fairer than
> native Dravidians). So talks like 'He is a pure Tamizh' and "He gave
> his life and soul for Tamizhs" are idiotic.
Periyaar never claimed he is pure Dravidian. Present day Tamils are of mixed
blood of many races. In Sri lanka, the Tamils have a mixed blood of Aryans,
Dravidians, Dutch, Portuguese and even Arabs. No one can say for sure what
race he or she belongs. As for the color, even within a family there is big
differences.
I think what he talked about was the difference between cultures: culture
portrayed by the Brahmanical texts based on the caste system and the culture
portrayed by the pre-brahmanical Tamil texts based on equality. Periyaar
denounced the former and wanted the people to rediscover the past glory of the
Tamils. He also disliked some irrational aspects of the Tamil culture as
well and wanted to change them.
>
> Your view that only "Brahmins exploit the society in the
> name of god" is not true. You go and see in Mariamman Temples
> of TN (especially that Mel Maruvathur Temple). You know Bangaru Adigalar?
This is not true. Anyone can exploit in the name of religion. But in
Hinduism, brahmins are most guilty of exploitation in the name of religion.
> He is not a Brahmin and most of the devotees to that temple are not
> Brahmins. A couple of years back there was a big rally (One of the biggest
> in the history of TN) organized by him in the name of God. You know
> who was the chief guest in that rally? One of the front-bencher of
> Periyaar "Paatashala" Viz. Nedunchezian. That Adigalar and Nedunchezian,
> it seems, have 95% of the stake worth hundreds of crores. The temple
> has Engg Colleges and Medical Colleges (Yep! Only Capitation Fees)
> attached to it.
Bangaru Adigalar has been discussed in the net in the past. Since I am not
knowledgeable about him I leave it to some other netters.
>
>
> Right now i have some urgent work. Thats why i'm stopping half-way.
> I'll enlighten you the *greatness* of *your* idiotic periyaar later on.
Well cursing Periyaar is not going to uplift you in any way.
>
Meenan Vishnu
Meenaradchagan Vishnu
I am surprised at this quote because in his writing, he usually had much
praise for the westerners science and rationalism. I think these magazines
are working with an agenda to discredit Periyaar.
Earlier some one wrote that Kumudham had written that Periyaar is a great Rama
bhakta by night and he is only an atheist by day.
If you want to learn about Periyaar and his philosophy, read some academic
work on him. Charles Ryerson's PhD thesis would be a good start.
>Joe Gangadharan
>ad...@freenet.carleton.ca
Meenan Vishnu
Amithkumar K Murali
Thathachari <tha...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>All the water(looking at the name calling and witch hunting-of Cooum
>quality) that has been flowing under the bridge(Napiers bridge?)
>brings to mind a song by John Lennon(ex-Beatle for the un-informed).
>talked to the "Man in the Mirror(Copyright Jackson)". This is
>beginning to sound too much like an advise(or is it advice?)
>so I guess I should stop here.
>
>Eppadikku
>Thaths
>--
>All we are saying...
>is give peace a chance.
> --Lennon
thaths kalakkarae, keep up the good work man , these people do need a lot
of advice (advice=noun , advise=verb ; of course , i can pardon u for this
mistake as i know Gill was not good in teaching grammar ).
You are one sane guy on the net other than of course , Mr. Sundaram
Be the arbitrator and btw, dont get killed....
you need all the luck ...
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: In article <Cnt39...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) writes:
: |> In article <2nqe76$q...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
: |> Arvind Nair <ann...@med.umich.edu> wrote:
: |> >
: |> >In article <94094.142...@auvm.american.edu>, Tharini Ramakishnan <TR0...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
: Till 1960's TN had capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
: maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped into the TN politics,
: the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
: Periyaar, who f#!*ed his house-maid, is being worshipped in TN. I really am wondering as to what he did for TN cause, apart from looting temples, breaking idols, teasing females (especially fair ones). He used foul language in his speech to attract the front benchers. Several statues were erected in TN to *honor* this third rated bugger. He don't even know
: what was *Science and Technology* but if you go to Madras, you can see Periyaar Science and
: Technology Museum.
All you above accusation are typical
spread by hard core brahmanical elements who have everything
rotten. I am not surprised that you are perverted, desperate
and use cheapshots like chimps, "viLakku pidichayyaa" against people.
Learn some culture before
you write something. If you do not like periyaar or anybody
confront them. Stop using cheap tricks and perversion.
Come on man grow up. We have seen more wretched
people than you. People who have called names, gone desperate
sending Email to supervisors etc. I confronted you because
you were spreading wrong information on periyaar. You confront
the principles if you can.
You did not confront the principles of MGR or his mistresses
(jaya and janaki) who even alloted ministers on caste basis,
increased reservation and converted many an affluent caste to BC,
got money by opening 100's of thatched roof engg and medical
colleges.
There is some truth about your accusations
of bangaru and co aping sankaracharya and becoming self-appointed
godmen. But talk sense and do not bring reservation, color and
vellalan etc. There are people of various colors in all
communities.
***********************anbar arasu's post***********************************************
I am presenting an
article by a Physician who treated Periyar. The physician is from Karnataka
state and is a
bramin.
PERIYAR- AS I KNEW HIM
----------------------
BY DR.BHAT,HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
UROLOGY
C.M.HOSPITAL,VELLORE
I am fully conscious of the fact that I am nobody to claim to have
understood the
depth of Periyar's philosophy or his personality. But I have felt the
impact of
both impressionably. Medical men among all men have a great opportunity to
come
in contact with other men at periods of their lives whether at the giving
or
receiving end. It is thus that I had the golden opportunity of meeting with
the great Periyar who was a Periyar indeed both when he was well and when
he was
ill. It was not a trick of destiny that EVR rose up to be the Periyar.
Freedom
loving from the time of his birth, he died as the freest of men. He had
conquered fear and pain in all the aspects as an individual and a leader
in his mission to raise people from the morass of religious taboos and
slavish attitudes imprisoned by philosophical and religious eccentricities
of fellowmen around. There was no Periyar before EVR and there is not
likely
to be any following him. But the Periyar era will be kept alive by the
masses who have been emancipated by him.
Periyar's personal living could be practised only by a satyagrahi. One look
at him and one could feel his dynamism. One meeting with him and one could
feel the largeness of his heart. One visit to his "Mansion" and one could
wonder what sort of a misnomer it was, lacking in the least of luxuries
which
even a school master would call a need. He never yearned for luxuries.
He never seemed to be angry with any fellow being but it was obvious
that every fibre in Periyar rebelled against anything that seemed to
deny his fellowmen the barest of freedoms. He was a fighter even while
he was dying and to us it is an enigma that he was so well preserved
so late in life. He looked like a soldier standing at ease even
as the tranquillity of death spread over him. Death did not give him even
a little time to prepare himself to fight. This is the treachery of
a "heart attack". If it was any other malady, Periyar would have with
confidence taken it in his strides when his hundredth year was just
round the corner. Never has a surgeon been baffled and laid low at
an operation that was done on Periyar as I was. Never have I seen a patient
complain so little about his pain and discomfort which he could afford to
with the halo that Periyar had.
Whatever that might be that worried Periyar in his fight for his fellowmen,
certainly the fear of death was never there. Such great men with such child
like faith and love for fellowmen can be counted on finger tips. But
Periyar
to me was the foremost of them all,as he seemed to have conquered barriers
of
caste, creed, birth status and public opinion as long as he beleived that
his
activeties would lead people on to a better world. His respect for
self relliance, his sense of humour, his love for all human beings,
his value for friendship, his belief in science and progress, his duty
and time conciousness, his free expression of what he felt
was right, his simplicity of attitude were all evident even at the time
when he was seriously ill. Any time was good for him to take a challenge
and the only weapons he had to rely on were his life, his motor van,
a microphone and love for the downtrodden. He was more available to
the lowest among the lowly and it was natural that they cried and wept most
in spontaneity at his passing away. The TORCH that Periyar lighted will
continue to burn, fed by the fuel of affection of his followers with
atmost final grattitude.
**********************************************************************************************
anban
kathir
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <Co1xw...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|>
|> ***********************anbar arasu's post***********************************************
|> I am presenting an
|> article by a Physician who treated Periyar. The physician is from Karnataka
|> state and is a
|> bramin.
|>
|> PERIYAR- AS I KNEW HIM
|> ----------------------
|> BY DR.BHAT,HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
|> UROLOGY
|>
|> C.M.HOSPITAL,VELLORE
|>
|>
What else do you expect from anban kathir? He comes and writes some
anti-brahmin articles. When everyone asks him to substantiate what he
wrote, he runs away. Then he waits for some time and again comes out
with his garbage.
Anbare,
Do you expect the brahmins to respect EVR? No way. You expect
people of the brahmin community to respect him when he spent his
whole life threatening the same community? You should be a great
optimist.
What do you intend to accomplish by the above post? I can also pull
up a post from some muthuswamy or periyaswamy who said that periyaar
was a square idiot.
varadhan
PS: what happened to all the replies to your hate postings? Why are u
silent? I know, you do not have any rational argument/basis for
your hate postings.
--
[SRIRAM GANAPATHY]
---------------
BUT I THINK THAT THE THING ABOUT WOMENS LIB IN INDIA SUX LIKE A STRAW!!
INSTEAD OF THEM ASKING FOR A SEPERATE "MAKALEER MATTUM" BUS, THAT TOO WITH
A MAGALEER DRIVER, THEY COULD AS WELL ASK FOR EQUALITY OF RIGHTS AND SAY THAT
THE MEN AND WOMEN SHOULD BE TREATED EQUAL, AND WE WOMEN DON'T NEED NO SPECIAL
RIGHTS, LIKE RESERVATIONS IN THE PTC BUS FOR EXAMPLE.
ITS AMAZING THAT THE PTC BUS HAS 2 ROWS, ONE FOR MAGALEER AND ONE COMMON!!
THE THING THAT REALLY GOT ON MY NERVES WAS A DIALOGUE BY OORVASI, SHE SAID THE
DIALOGUE IN THE SENSE THAT **ONLY MEN** LOOKED AT FEMALES, `JOLLU' IN THEIR
NATIVE LINGO!! THIS REALLY PSYCHED ME.....
ENRUM ANBUDAN............
SRIRAM GANAPATHY FROM THE MOCITY!!
Raja
|> : In article <Cnt39...@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>, mvi...@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (Meenaradchagan Vishnu) writes:
|> : |> In article <2nqe76$q...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
|> : |> Arvind Nair <ann...@med.umich.edu> wrote:
|> : |> >
|> : |> >In article <94094.142...@auvm.american.edu>, Tharini Ramakishnan <TR0...@auvm.american.edu> writes:
|>
|> All you above accusation are typical
|> spread by hard core brahmanical elements who have everything
|> rotten. I am not surprised that you are perverted, desperate
|> and use cheapshots like chimps, "viLakku pidichayyaa" against people.
|> Learn some culture before
|> you write something. If you do not like periyaar or anybody
|> confront them. Stop using cheap tricks and perversion.
|>
You call me perverted, desperate just becoz I called Periyaar
names. But *your* Periyaar and his DK used/uses those
words/phrases in public. Then by your argument Periyaar
should also be a Perverted/Desperate bugger. Sure he was.
I have confronted so many of your DK front-benchers.
|> Come on man grow up. We have seen more wretched
|> people than you. People who have called names, gone desperate
|> sending Email to supervisors etc. I confronted you because
|> you were spreading wrong information on periyaar. You confront
|> the principles if you can.
|> You did not confront the principles of MGR or his mistresses
|> (jaya and janaki) who even alloted ministers on caste basis,
|> increased reservation and converted many an affluent caste to BC,
|> got money by opening 100's of thatched roof engg and medical
|> colleges.
Tell me, what i quoted wrong, about Periyaar? Do you mean to say
that you are the only poor BC in this world. MGR was in favour
of Economic Criterion as the basis for reservation. But *your*
Kazhagam shouted slogans as if they were against non-brahmins.
When I say "X is wrong", you say "Y is wrong"
How does that justify the greateness, if any according to you,
of Periyaar. If you had any brains/logic you would try to prove
" X is right" instead of saying "Y is wrong and so X is wrong".
Read some "Logic Programming" before jumpin into fray for
everything and anything to do with B.Bashing.
|> There is some truth about your accusations
|> of bangaru and co aping sankaracharya and becoming self-appointed
|> godmen. But talk sense and do not bring reservation, color and
|> vellalan etc. There are people of various colors in all
|> communities.
|>
Why should i, not talk about reservation, color etc? Its all interelated.
If its not interelated, according to you, then stop shouting against
Brahmins. If you have any brains go and check your previous articles that
you talked about aryans/dravidians. I think you know only one thing viz.
B.Bashing. If that is the case then you might even argue that the
"Earthquake in Calif. " was due to a Brahmin Astrolger who predicted
there would be a catastrophe. Or else t'morrow if your aid is cut (Hope
its not) at your Carleton Univ. you might come up and say the Dean was a
Brahmin ....
|> ***********************anbar arasu's post***********************************************
|> I am presenting an
|> article by a Physician who treated Periyar. The physician is from Karnataka
|> state and is a
|> bramin.
^^^^^^
If Periyaar was so great, according to you, then why does he need
a *certificate* from his out-and-out enemy viz Brahmins. It seems
you are suffering from a big dose of Inferiority Complex. Come up
man! I don't see you as a low-caste guy or a non-brahmin. I see
you as a *human being*. So don't try B.Bashing. Treat them as
any other human being.
|>
|> PERIYAR- AS I KNEW HIM
|> ----------------------
|>
|> < Junk about Periyaar deleted>
|> anban
|> kathir
Raja
|>
|>
|>Meenan Vishnu
I quoted from Kumudham just becoz you quoted some references. If you don't want
accept it, forget maan. I have no qualms. I don't see Brahmins culturally differing as opposed to Non-Brahmins. Both of them believe in god. Both believe
in idol worship. Both have lot of sentimental beliefs. Only thing that might
differ are food habits. Brahmins *used* to be Strict Veggie and Non-Brahmins used to take meat etc.
You talk about Ramayana being re-written by Periyaar wherein Rama was the portrayed as the villai, I know it. This reminds me of an instance in Madras
wherein those front-benchers Periyaar Paasarai(?) viz.DK staged a play named
"Keemaayanam" (just reversing all the roles of Ramayana characters). In this
play "Ravana" was the *Hero* and "Rama" was the *villain*. But these foolish
and idiotic Periyaar and hi Co. didn't know that "Ravana" was a "Born Brahmin"
and "Rama" a "Born Kshatriya". All the way they were glorifying "Ravana" - a
Brahmin. So much for their stupidity.
But I feel these things should not have made Periyaar anti-brahmin. It might be
the *power structure* during British rule that might have prompted Periyaar to
group against Brahmins. He succeeded, I agree, to some extent. But those things
are a history now. Today Brahmins don't wield any power as in the past. But
again you might say Jaya is a Brahmin. Do you think that the percentage of
reservations will get reduced just becoz Jaya is the CM? And do you think MK &
Co will keep mum if (at all) she reduces the quota? I don't think so. So don't
tell brahmins are only ones for the ills of TN. Every caste/religion has its own
quota of conservative people. Grouping against that caste/religion is bad. So
B.Brahmins even now, is like "rubbing salt on the wound".
Prakash Jayaraman
> BUT I THINK THAT THE THING ABOUT WOMENS LIB IN INDIA SUX LIKE A STRAW!!
> INSTEAD OF THEM ASKING FOR A SEPERATE "MAKALEER MATTUM" BUS, THAT TOO WITH
> A MAGALEER DRIVER, THEY COULD AS WELL ASK FOR EQUALITY OF RIGHTS AND SAY THAT
> THE MEN AND WOMEN SHOULD BE TREATED EQUAL, AND WE WOMEN DON'T NEED NO SPECIAL
> RIGHTS, LIKE RESERVATIONS IN THE PTC BUS FOR EXAMPLE.
>
> ITS AMAZING THAT THE PTC BUS HAS 2 ROWS, ONE FOR MAGALEER AND ONE COMMON!!
Actually, seats are there for use of the physically-weak. And women in
general are physically weaker than men. So, reservations in bus (that too
in the crowd of Madras) for women is necessary.
-J. Prakash
One humble request to the sender of the root post:
Please put the caps off. If u don't know how to do it, pl. ask ur friends
nearby. Thanks.
Vijay Fafat
>Actually, seats are there for use of the physically-weak. And women in
>general are physically weaker than men. So, reservations in bus (that too
>in the crowd of Madras) for women is necessary.
Women in Bombay must be stronger. In Delhi, they're definitely
stronger.
btw, I've personally seen the strange sight of the men's
side being completely full, others hanging on to the roof-bar
and the women's side being sparsely filled. Kind of ridiculous,
na?
Srikant Sridevan
In article <1994Apr12.0...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes:
The animals sat in rows one by one hurrah hurrah...
Fafat, do you know that these women think that if a man sits next to
them, that could result in their getting pregnant, sorry, *in their
chastity being violated*.? However, due to the strict following of no
man older than 12 may so much as hope of getting a seat next to these
gorgeous wenches, the population growth in TN is still under check.
Srikant
P.S. Is such, the pathetic state in other cities as well, in our beloved
state?
--
--
Bierwissenschaftenstudent
e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: In article <Co1xw...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
: |> Raja (reg...@bnr.ca) wrote:
: Why should i, not talk about reservation, color etc? Its all interelated.
: If its not interelated, according to you, then stop shouting against
: Brahmins. If you have any brains go and check your previous articles that
You must have had a day dream to write the sentences
below and attribute it to anybody.
: you talked about aryans/dravidians. I think you know only one thing viz.
: B.Bashing. If that is the case then you might even argue that the
: "Earthquake in Calif. " was due to a Brahmin Astrolger who predicted
: there would be a catastrophe. Or else t'morrow if your aid is cut (Hope
: its not) at your Carleton Univ.
: you might come up and say the Dean was a
: Brahmin ....
You seem to have studied logic programming that
made you conclude that saiva vellalars are dark and hence change
caste. Keep up your logic.
Thank God you are not a Dean :_)). I never thought about my assistantship
being cut before I wind up.
: |> ***********************anbar arasu's post***********************************************
: |> I am presenting an
: |> article by a Physician who treated Periyar. The physician is from Karnataka
: |> state and is a
: |> bramin.
: ^^^^^^
: If Periyaar was so great, according to you, then why does he need
: a *certificate* from his out-and-out enemy viz Brahmins. It seems
: you are suffering from a big dose of Inferiority Complex. Come up
: man! I don't see you as a low-caste guy or a non-brahmin. I see
: you as a *human being*. So don't try B.Bashing. Treat them as
: any other human being.
Yes. I do treat everybody like humans.
Infact you have said `chimps' in your previous post. You
did call me chimp. That does arise out of your hatred
and insecurity. I would rather call you a hard core pervert
and brahmanical zealot than a chimp as chimps do not use
computers and shout.
anban
kathir
: |>
: |> PERIYAR- AS I KNEW HIM
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
>
> In article <1994Apr12.0...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes:
>
> The animals sat in rows one by one hurrah hurrah...
>
> Fafat, do you know that these women think that if a man sits next to
> them, that could result in their getting pregnant, sorry, *in their
> chastity being violated*.? However, due to the strict following of no
> man older than 12 may so much as hope of getting a seat next to these
> gorgeous wenches, the population growth in TN is still under check.
>
> Srikant
>
> P.S. Is such, the pathetic state in other cities as well, in our beloved
> state?
Srikant,
I'm surprised by the "do you know that these women think" etc.
I, for one, am from Madras and I certainly don't think that the
moment a man sits next to me, I'll have an immaculate conception,
thank you :-). I've also tested this out by letting men sit next
to me in these same PTC buses.
Assuming you've lived at least some of your life in TN, let me
pose this question - I'm sure you'd have seen a lot of segregation between
the sexes in TN. How many arts colleges in Madras are co-ed? You have
several "Men's" and "Women's" colleges. Do we need these? I would say
no. Trouble is, segregation has been continued over the years and is
sort of assumed as "the" solution to many "problems". Many parents,
originally (and even now, taking some of my own relatives in smaller
towns) felt more comfortable sending women to women's colleges. Even
some women from small towns who go to professional institutions, are
often shy of men. Segregation continues in other forms too, in colleges
- with ridiculous "curfew" hours in women's hostels (like 6PM) -
ostensibly to encourage "discipline", and there are many parents who
favour such stupid hours for fear their daughters may "go astray".
There are colleges in Coimbatore like the famous Avinashlingam
Womens College where students (even grad students) can't go out more
than twice a month, and can't see someone unless he/she has a picture
id card saying the person is a relative/friend, this card being
signed by the parent ! Do these women speak out ? No, they don't
want to "get into trouble with the college management". We had
ridiculous hours in my own college in Coimbatore - and I remember the
futile way in which 3 of us argued with the Principal. The rest would
simply not want to "antagonize the warden, who would decide some of
"their grades in a subject" and the remaining were content to be in
a bovine state of inaction ("why do I need to get into controversies?").
Absolutely sick attitude !
This same solution is what we see in PTC buses. Eve-teasing
or harrassment in the bus ? Have separate seats for women and
"women and children only" buses !
The trouble is, we need more spirited women. Women who would
speak up for their rights, women who speak out against being treated
like prisoners in hostels, and women who lash out against harrassers
in buses. But "quietness" (read meekness) in women has been a "virtue"
in TN. You find too many meek women who just don't want to be
conspicuous or the type that just accepts the status quo. The utterly
sickening "calm and quiet" pseudo "adakka odukkam" types. We need
bolder women.
So, in short, it's not that women think they'd get pregnant
etc. It's just that they won't speak for/against anything and are content
with the "special seats for women" and "women-only" buses, because
they needn't have to open their mouths. If they travel in crowded buses
and some guy harrasses them, they'd just move away or be content with
a few glares. They simply won't speak out.
Gayathri.
Sundar
get a seat to sit. But when the same guy comes with his whole lot of sister(s),
cousins, parents ..etc, he'll keep his mouth shut and argue in favour of *seat
reservations* for women. The mentality of most of the men in this case, depends
on the need-basis.
One more place in TN, where you get tired with *reservations for women* is in
Theatres. Guys who go *alone* to theatres are doomed. They'll have to wait for
a couple of hours to get the ticket,since the gents queue will invariably be
looong. But those who come with their spouse(or any female), will get tickets
within minutes (as only a couple of females will be their in the Ladies queue).
This is more so with the case of Hit movies. This will be more annoying when
some ladies misuse. One particular instance I saw, pertains to a Hit
English Movie (say Basic Instinct). There was a very long Gents queue. Some
Aayas ( aged around 60) formed a separte ladies queue, got tickets very easily, and started selling those tickets in black-market. I was really astonished.
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
>
>
> I think this messed up attitude comes from the movies at least in part,
> where the heroine will loudly protest even being touched by anyone other
> than the hero. And this nonsense is looked upon as Tamizhar paNpaadu and
> so forth.
I think this messed up attitude is because of segregation taken to the
extreme. That plus the problem avoidance method taken to the extreme.
From adolescence, men and women are segregated - with women being told
to "guard themselves" and avoid all confrontation, because whatever
happens, it is *their* reputation that gets "ruined". Firstly, due to
too much gender segregation and minimized interaction with the opposite
sex, these women aren't sure how to interpret even a minor action like
some guy sitting next to them in a crowded bus. That plus the "problem
avoidance" technique they were taught from the beginning - i.e, anticipate
a problem before it has even a 1% chance of occurring and avoid it. Crudely
put, it's like "araNdavan kaNNukku iruNdathellAm pEi" (to the scared guy,
anything that's dark is a monster).
The sad fact is that special privileges or not, women are as much
the victims of segregation as they are its perpetrators (by this I
mean silent spectators). It is their freedom that is lost in the
process, in many instances (like the Avinashlingam college hostel
rules and the restricted freedom granted to them in the name of
discipline).
In the case of special privileges, as you said, it is logical for them
not to speak out. But even in the case of victimization, these women
don't speak out. Beats me why these women fit themselves into the slot
of "women" and let themselves be treated like objects that can be
manipulated enmasse, with other people directing their lives. Why can't
they just consider themselves as individuals - free citizens with choices,
rights and responsibilities ?
> When a guy harrasses
> them, by all means let them take him to task. But I mind their treating
> me as someone would would harrass them when I have no intentions of
> doing so. How do they know that? They don't but they should treat all
> the men as innocent and punish them only if they are guilty of
> misbehaviour.
The trouble, as I said is problem avoidance taken to the extreme. Since
most of these women are incapable of taking harrassers to task, they
try to be hypercautious and look ridiculous in the process.
> Do you think this will improve when the older generation passes on?
This thing IMO, would improve only when segregation goes away, and
men and women are not treated (and more important, don't consider
themselves) differently in terms of rights and duties. This whole
attitude of the women in buses is really a symptom of a bigger
disease.
Gayathri.
man...@msus1.msus.edu
> In article <1994Apr12.0...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes:
>>In article <2ocbjc$7...@sal-sun138.usc.edu> jaya...@sal-sun138.usc.edu
>>(Prakash Jayaraman) writes:
>>>Actually, seats are there for use of the physically-weak. And women
>>in
>>>general are physically weaker than men. So, reservations in bus (that
>>too
>>>in the crowd of Madras) for women is necessary.
>>
>> Women in Bombay must be stronger. In Delhi, they're definitely
>> stronger.
Yeah I guess they're stronger, is that why they have to endure the worst
kind of eve-teasing seen in any city in India.
> P.S. Is such, the pathetic state in other cities as well, in our beloved
> state?
In Delhi it's a far more pathetic case, although of a different kind. There
are no seats reserved for women, and a lot of thugs have tried to make the most
of it. There was a case in Delhi a few years ago, where a girl had to jump out
of a running bus, because of a drunken man who insisted on sitting next to her
and also harassing her. That was not an isolated case. In fact a couple of
years ago the Delhi police had to deploy special squads of police(wo)men
specifically to knock the hell out of the eve-teasers.
So in a larger sense with regard to seperate seats for women and eve-teasing
in buses, your beloved state :) is not doing all that badly really.
Rammanohar
Prakash Jayaraman
> Which reminds me of my very first visit to Madras, where I rushed
> into the bus, Bombay style, and plonked into a window seat. Everyone
> kept looking at me without saying anything, till the conductor
> came and jumbled something in Tamil. My blank look prompted him
> to point to something written on the side...some indecipherable
> stuff in Tamil. I shook my head and he probably took that as a
> refusal :-). Just went ahead shaking his head and I managed to
> go all the way, having successfully and unintentionally protested
> against the nonsensical reservation scheme.
In fact, it is not a reservation scheme. It is a priority scheme, priority
for the physically weak. You can't find 'MagaLir mattum' (Women ONLY) seats
in those buses.
Most women simply cannot get into the crowd when the bus arrives and get a
seat or even find a place to stand, when there are too many persons for a
seat.
You might have noticed that there are some seats for the aged and the
handicapped also.
-J. Prakash
Vijay Fafat
>In fact, it is not a reservation scheme. It is a priority scheme, priority
>for the physically weak. You can't find 'MagaLir mattum' (Women ONLY) seats
>in those buses.
Then I sat in the buses which do have the "women ONLY" seats...
an entire half of the bus. Don't tell me such buses don't
exist in Madras :-)
Raja
|> Raja (reg...@bnr.ca) wrote:
|>
|> The use of four letter words even when you confronted Vijay
|> Fafat does speak for your lack of civility in the min valai.
|> Your use of words against some people who worked for the upliftment
|> of Tamils shows your prejudice and lack of truth.
As I said earlier, why don't you disprove whatever I have said
earlier, instead coming up again and again 'your prejudice and
lack of truth'. I just want to know one thing r u just replying
just for passing time. You don't even seem to read my whole
stuff, as most your 'quoted text' are out of context. Take
your own time to read my (or any other) article calmly and
thoruoghly before replying. I don't want to comment on Mr.Vijay
Fafat. Right now he is not in this discussion. As for my lack
of civility, I need not learn from you.
|>
|> The words used against periyaar is very
|> typical of mudslingers who believe in Brahmanism. I wish
|> to say that many of us are so called `forward community'
|> and I am not for reservations for economically well off
|> for so called `backward community'. This pampering does not do
|> good for them.
Just becoz I mudsling a third person viz. Periyaar, makes you
raise your voice. Imagine you r accusing the whole Brahmin
community for this. I don't understand how you justify this,
being highly educated. As i said earlier *think on your own*, maan,
instead of borrowing DK stuff
|>
|> I am against the very principles of Brahmanism.
|> Appointing a few people as messenegers of God and mixing politics
|> and religions as that letter of TAMBRAS tells `kanchi will be
|> headquarters'. One can practice whatever one likes but do not
|> bring it to public and claim that is THE HINDU religion, GOD etc.
|> I am particularly concerned about how how the culture of 3% is projected
|> as the National Hindu culture.
I am against the very principles of machiavellian Periyaar. Appointing
himself as messanger of non-brahmins and mixing politics and castes
as his umpteen speeches against brahmins tell. One can practice whatever
one likes but do not bring to public and claim that is Dravidian .. etc.
I am praticularly concerned about how the culture of a handful of DK
front-benchers is projected as the Dravidian Culture.
|>
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
|>
|>
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
> In <Co7uE...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> gaya...@woodling.ecn.purdue.edu writes:
>
> > The sad fact is that special privileges or not, women are as much
> > the victims of segregation as they are its perpetrators (by this I
> > mean silent spectators). It is their freedom that is lost in the
> > process, in many instances (like the Avinashlingam college hostel
> > rules and the restricted freedom granted to them in the name of
> > discipline).
> >
> > In the case of special privileges, as you said, it is logical for them
> > not to speak out. But even in the case of victimization, these women
> > don't speak out. Beats me why these women fit themselves into the slot
> > of "women" and let themselves be treated like objects that can be
> > manipulated enmasse, with other people directing their lives. Why can't
> > they just consider themselves as individuals - free citizens with choices,
> > rights and responsibilities ?
> >
>
> Just being curious here. Did you hold these views even while you were growing
> up in India (Madras) or are the views a result of living in a country where
> individual expression is considered to be above everything else in life.
>
> Krishnan
So we now have to go into the history of my personal views :-). Ok, for
the record, I've been living here less than 3 years. If you read my earlier
posts on this thread, you would have noticed my anger on why women didn't
oppose ridiculous restrictions in hostels in the name of discipline. And it
was in past tense (specifically when I was an undergrad in Coimbatore) as
well. Some of my anger (more like frustration) on attitudes of women
themselves once prompted my mother to dub me "anti-women" (in jest of
course) - she used to tease me about it while I was in India. I've objected
to people trying to limit my choices before, and I still do. And I still
do not understand why women shouldn't think of themselves as individuals
with rights instead of subjecting themselves to degrading treatment without
protest. Probably my living here has made me articulate things better.
Gayathri.
Gowri Sankar Sivaprasad
what do you say for this situation when there is a lot of seats
available on the 'magalir' side and a lady sits with her companion
(be it husband/brother/friend/whoever) and men have to stand even
though seats are available for them. Is it morally right for
the lady to use that seat, making men stand. Its fine if nobody
is there to use that seat. But not otherwise.
Dont tell me this does not happen. I am from madras and I have seen
this happen. When I approached the lady to tell her that she please
go sit in all those empty ladies seats, she gives me a cold stare.
GowriSankar Sivaprasad
G. Shivakumar
between sexes as their argument for abolishing the "ladies only" buses.
I think first females should be accepted as equals psychologically
and then we can think about acheiving equality on a physical level.
Females in India are subject to harassment in all forms possible both
in and out of their houses. I think it is fair that they are allowed a
special place atleast in the buses if not at other locations.
G. Shivakumar
Subramanian Krishnan
Ok: I am sorry I asked for the history of your personal views. I was just
curious because I thought that maybe women (for that matter most people - men
and women) in India do not assert their individuality with as much passion as
they do out here because of what one might call "social pressure" or fear of
society... leading to a vicious cycle.
Of course there are always exceptions to the above rule I guess :-)
Krishnan
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: In article <Co7EL...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
: |> Raja (reg...@bnr.ca) wrote:
: |> Your use of words against some people who worked for the upliftment
: |> of Tamils shows your prejudice and lack of truth.
:
: As I said earlier, why don't you disprove whatever I have said
: earlier, instead coming up again and again 'your prejudice and
: lack of truth'. I just want to know one thing r u just replying
: just for passing time. You don't even seem to read my whole
: stuff, as most your 'quoted text' are out of context. Take
I read all your stuff but I do not see any decency in
you.
Females are teased only by perverts like you
who do not want to learn civility.
None of the temple idols were touched.
Read the following lines of yours and you will find
you are a perverted liar who lacks civility.
: capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
: maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped in
to the TN politics,
: the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
: Periyaar, who f#!*ed his house-maid, is being worshipped in TN. I really
am wondering as to what he did for TN cause, apart from looting temples,
breaking idols, teasing females (especially fair ones). He used foul langu
age in his speech to attract the front benchers. Several statues were erec
ted in TN to *honor* this third rated bugger. He don't even know
: what was *Science and Technology* but if you go to Madras, you can see P
eriyaar
Last reply to perverts.
anban
kathir
MF...@utcvm.utc.edu
KadavuLai nambupavan muttaaL.
(The one who believes in God is a fool)
Thiru vaLLuvar says:
kaRRathanaalaaya payanenkol vaalaRivan
naRRaaL tozhaar enin
(What is the use of all the learning if one does not
pray at the lotus feet of God who is the embodiment
of all learning?)
E.V.Ramasamy Naikkar said:
oru paambaiyum, oru paappaanaiyum paarththaal, anNtha
paappaanai adi.
(If you happen to come across a snake and a
brahmin, hit the brahmin.)
Thiru vaLLuvar says:
anNthanar enpOr aRavOr maRRevvuyirkkum
senNthaNmai pooNtozhuka laan
(A brahmin is a learned person with love towards all
living beings.)
What a great person E.V.R was!!!
Rajesh Vaidheeswarran
In article 7663...@flash.cs.iastate.edu, siva...@cs.iastate.edu (Gowri Sankar Sivaprasad) writes:
>pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes:
>
>>In article <2oiknk$3...@sal-sun121.usc.edu> jaya...@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Prakash Jayaraman) writes:
>>>In fact, it is not a reservation scheme. It is a priority scheme, priority
>>>for the physically weak. You can't find 'MagaLir mattum' (Women ONLY) seats
>>>in those buses.
> what do you say for this situation when there is a lot of seats
> available on the 'magalir' side and a lady sits with her companion
> (be it husband/brother/friend/whoever) and men have to stand even
> though seats are available for them. Is it morally right for
> the lady to use that seat, making men stand. Its fine if nobody
> is there to use that seat. But not otherwise.
>
> Dont tell me this does not happen. I am from madras and I have seen
> this happen. When I approached the lady to tell her that she please
> go sit in all those empty ladies seats, she gives me a cold stare.
>
> GowriSankar Sivaprasad
That's not Madras alone, IT happens just about everywhere.
..and Prakash, you do know about it ;) so much so in our own
beloved #26 and #128 don't tell me you haven't in 4 yrs. seen
even a single case of a couple sitting on the open quota!! (OC)
side of the bus when the "reserved" catagory was filled
in every available seat by just one woman,[and given the fact that
we are men (COLLEGE GUYS!! YUK!) we can't sit there], Mrs. X (or is
it Ms. X ;) ) wouldn't oblige to occupy that lone seat whereby
you have been left standing till "raja theatre" arrived ;)
well, I again say that there are deplorable things going on, and
everyone concerned has a good share of the blame. What we need is
a wholesale change of attitudes from everyone.
thanks
R.
Kesavaram S. Gadi
> I see that most of the postings in this thread talk about equality
> between sexes as their argument for abolishing the "ladies only" buses.
> I think first females should be accepted as equals psychologically
> and then we can think about acheiving equality on a physical level.
>
> Females in India are subject to harassment in all forms possible both
> in and out of their houses. I think it is fair that they are allowed a
> special place atleast in the buses if not at other locations.
>
> G. Shivakumar
>
>
Well, Shiva seems to have clearly taken his side by the usage of the word
females in his posting. The sentence on equality seems to be more of hypocrisy
rather than sincerity. I would have substituted females with women to avoid
making the point too obvious.
GK
---
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(803) 656-0837. (803) 653-8771
Email: kg...@eng.clemson.edu
========================================================================
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and then go beyond them."
========================================================================
Srikant Sridevan
In article <1994Apr13....@msus1.msus.edu>,
man...@msus1.msus.edu writes:
I do not dispute the fact that some seats probably need to be reserved
for them since they *are* physically weaker than men. I also agree that
eveteasing is a serious problem in India. Do *you* concede that the
attitude of the women travelling in Madras buses that any and all men
are out to "rid them of their chastity and virtue" is a problem? There
is no "larger sense" in women being idiots rather than men. I was merely
curious to find out whether the same seriously screwed mentality was an
all-TN phenomenon or just a Madras phenomenon, having never lived
outside Madras.
Is the context of my question now clear?
Thanks,
Srikant
Raja
|> Raja (reg...@bnr.ca) wrote:
|> : In article <Co7EL...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> : |> Raja (reg...@bnr.ca) wrote:
|> : |>
|> : |> Your use of words against some people who worked for the upliftment
|> : |> of Tamils shows your prejudice and lack of truth.
|> :
|> : As I said earlier, why don't you disprove whatever I have said
|> : earlier, instead coming up again and again 'your prejudice and
|> : lack of truth'. I just want to know one thing r u just replying
|> : just for passing time. You don't even seem to read my whole
|> : stuff, as most your 'quoted text' are out of context. Take
|>
|> I read all your stuff but I do not see any decency in
|> you.
|> Females are teased only by perverts like you
|> who do not want to learn civility.
|> None of the temple idols were touched.
If you had civility, then why did you call me 'mamaa'. Then you
are also a third-rated fellow.
|>
|> Read the following lines of yours and you will find
|> you are a perverted liar who lacks civility.
|> : capable leaders who could have made a PM. But after some sex starved
|> : maniacs like Periyaar, Anna, Mu.Karunanidhi, Ki.Veeramani etc. jumped in
|> to the TN politics,
|> : the chances of a Tamilian PM went into the dumps.
|> : Periyaar, who f#!*ed his house-maid, is being worshipped in TN. I really
|> am wondering as to what he did for TN cause, apart from looting temples,
|> breaking idols, teasing females (especially fair ones). He used foul langu
|> age in his speech to attract the front benchers. Several statues were erec
|> ted in TN to *honor* this third rated bugger. He don't even know
|> : what was *Science and Technology* but if you go to Madras, you can see P
|> eriyaar
I quoted only the facts about Periyaar and his DK front-benchers
(including you). It seems you don't have enough good stuff about
Periyaar, thats why you don't seem to disprove whatever I wrote
about Periyaar. Were you in TN, during that period? Stop that
nonsense maan. See the reality and write. Don't just sit inside
Carleton Univ's Library and Computer Rooms and discuss things. Okay.
|>
|> Last reply to perverts.
Shows lack of stuff.
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
Rajesh Vaidheeswarran
>
>I do not dispute the fact that some seats probably need to be reserved
>for them since they *are* physically weaker than men. I also agree that
>eveteasing is a serious problem in India. Do *you* concede that the
>attitude of the women travelling in Madras buses that any and all men
>are out to "rid them of their chastity and virtue" is a problem? There
>is no "larger sense" in women being idiots rather than men. I was merely
>curious to find out whether the same seriously screwed mentality was an
>all-TN phenomenon or just a Madras phenomenon, having never lived
>outside Madras.
>
>Is the context of my question now clear?
>
>Thanks,
>Srikant
It is no Madras phenomenon ... just All-TN (or is it All-Indian phenomenon) ..
but the trouble is that though there are less perverted men running around the streets
(and in buses!!) than sane people, it is their kind that rules due to the common indian attitude
of "dushtana kanda dura velagu" instead of bashing the daylights out of them!
The ground reality in India seems to be such that the screwed up cheapos roaming the streets almost vindicate such an attitude (of the commom woman). ..and given the fact that the
only difference between the ordinary rowdies and the police men is the uniform that the
latter wears, I doubt that a girl can safely go into a police station and report an incident.
Well... Talking about a matter in a totally diff. environment helps little, if we cannot help
change whats going on.. But then, I guess it helps some of the affected vent their anger
at the cost of net bandwidth ;)
Thanks
R.
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
> I see that most of the postings in this thread talk about equality
> between sexes as their argument for abolishing the "ladies only" buses.
I have no comment about this.
> I think first females should be accepted as equals psychologically
> and then we can think about acheiving equality on a physical level.
The basic trouble is this: women seem to be having the attitude that
freedom is something *others* have to grant them. Hence, despite
increased levels of education, women put up with a lot of nonsense
timidly and without protest, as if to say "Alright. You have given me
at least so much freedom. Let me be content with that". Women would
be truly free only when they consider freedom their birthright -
their very valuable property, albeit an intangible one.
This is what I call psychological freedom and I think this should be
the first step - realizing that they are free, and that those who try to
curb their freedom are really robbing the women of what is their own. Once
this mental freedom is achieved, "females being accepted as equals" by
others an "equality on a physical level" would come gradually. Freedom,
in any context, historically speaking, wasn't something that was granted
on a platter without any demand.
Socially, we do need stronger laws against sexual harrassment, and
a sincere police force to enforce them.
Gayathri.
A P Nagaraj
>
>In fact, it is not a reservation scheme. It is a priority scheme, priority
>for the physically weak. You can't find 'MagaLir mattum' (Women ONLY) seats
>in those buses.
>
>Most women simply cannot get into the crowd when the bus arrives and get a
>seat or even find a place to stand, when there are too many persons for a
>seat.
>
>You might have noticed that there are some seats for the aged and the
>handicapped also.
>
>-J. Prakash
>
whenever they see an aged person or a handicapped person!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
\\\\\\
8|@ @|8 An I for an I makes the world egocentric
| V | and thus spake Nagaraj.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
:
: anNthanar enpOr aRavOr maRRevvuyirkkum
: senNthaNmai pooNtozhuka laan
: (A brahmin is a learned person with love towards all
: living beings.)
:
: What a great person E.V.R was!!!
The above kuRaL and your misinterpretation shows
how crooked one can be.
anthaNar-am+thaNar.
am-beauty; thaNmai-coolness. as in thaNNeer-cold water.
anthaNar is not a brahmin by caste or someone who
has to wear a thread or somebody who feigns pakthi
by reciting undecipherable words.
anthaNar is a cool person who shows love to
all living beings.
There are anthaNars in all communities.
It transcends all caste, creed and color.
It talks about the quality of a person
and does not categorize people on birth
as brahmanical texts do.
Again yours uncivil words in the
net against periyaar and the words you
used in your reply to Vijay
shows which category you belong to.
Raja: Read the kuRaL
`piRappokkum ellaa vuyirkkum..."
and give your interpretation.
anban
kathir
Srikant Sridevan
In article <CoB1E...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>,
gaya...@woodling.ecn.purdue.edu (Gayathri Krishnamurthy) writes:
I agree totally with what Gayathri said about freedom and the need to
stop thinking of freedom as something to be "awarded" to women. She then
goes on:
>Socially, we do need stronger laws against sexual harrassment, and
>a sincere police force to enforce them.
The problem with this is to come up with a satisfactory definition of
SH. I think that the way its defined in the U.S "SH is whatever the
'victim' sees it as" is unacceptable as it can be misused. But in India,
the problem is much more serious than it is here and even some misuse is
probably acceptable.
Rajesh Vaidheeswarran
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Dont tell me this does not happen. I am from madras and I have seen
>> this happen. When I approached the lady to tell her that she please
>> go sit in all those empty ladies seats, she gives me a cold stare.
>
>> GowriSankar Sivaprasad
>
aha.. what a nice attitude... :)
---
R.
Thirumalai-Anand
Running act again....
varadhan
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
--
Daniel C. Gnanaprakasam
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi <k...@doe.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> I am against the very principles of Brahmanism.
>Appointing a few people as messenegers of God and mixing politics
>and religions as that letter of TAMBRAS tells `kanchi will be
>headquarters'. One can practice whatever one likes but do not
>bring it to public and claim that is THE HINDU religion, GOD etc.
>I am particularly concerned about how how the culture of 3% is projected
>as the National Hindu culture.
>
>
> anban
> kathir
>
>
Why are you against TAMBRAS alone. I don't see similar outbursts from
you against other caste based organizations like - Nadar organization,
Chettiar Organization, Vanniar Organization, Christian Nadar organization,
Christian Vanniar org. ( Yes, Christians have org. based on castes), etc.
Are you saying that Brahmins are not allowed to form an organization?
Correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that TAMBRAS came into
existence after repeated physical assaults on the Brahmin community by
the DK people, as an organization to protect the community and its interests.
It's just another caste based organization, like zillion others that
exist in the state. I don't beleive TAMBRAS goal is to promote Brahminism.
If some group of people constantly harrass and assault me and my family
in my neighborhood based on my caste to which I was born into, I would
definetely form an organization to protect myself.
Why do you think, that proclaiming one's belief in
public (however stupid that maybe) is so objectionable, when everybody
else is given that right. Why do have problems in what people believe
and proclaim as Hinduism, as long as it is not forced upon others.
Mr. Bangaru Adigalar, believes something else is Hinduism and he is
freely proclaiming it in public and he has a much larger following in TN.
If you believe somethingelse is Hinduism feel free to form an organization
and proclaim it. It's your right and nobody is against it.
daniel
--
Daniel C. Gnanaprakasam Phone: (609) 386-5995 Ext: 127
Matsushita Applied Research Labs. Fax: (609) 386-4999
95D Conneticut Drive e-mail: dan...@marl.research.panasonic.com
Burlington, NJ 08016
Vijay Fafat
>Well, Shiva seems to have clearly taken his side by the usage of the word
>females in his posting. The sentence on equality seems to be more of hypocrisy
>rather than sincerity. I would have substituted females with women to avoid
>making the point too obvious.
O really? And please tell how the usage of "women" would have
made things seem more equitable. What's wrong with "females", anyway?
Just because you happen to know a word called "hypocrisy" doesn't
mean it fits everywhere.
FFT
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Women can sit on this side please. Females cannot.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganesh Gopalakrishnan
> daniel
Fantastic, enlightened response. A must read for EVERY ONE on the net!
May your numbers multiply by the zillions! - Ganesh
Rajesh Vaidheeswarran
> anthaNar is not a brahmin by caste or someone who
> has to wear a thread or somebody who feigns pakthi
> by reciting undecipherable words.
what a brahmin does wearing a thread and reciting words that are undecipherable
(to you!) is his business. if you can make a point without letting
your baser emotions showing up on the net, then the net would be a
better place.
> There are anthaNars in all communities.
> It transcends all caste, creed and color.
> It talks about the quality of a person
> and does not categorize people on birth
> as brahmanical texts do.
>
>
> Again yours uncivil words in the
> net against periyaar and the words you
> used in your reply to Vijay
> shows which category you belong to.
>
I fail to understand how a person so filled with hatred towards
one sect of people (read brahmins) call others "uncivil" . If you
can use this net to perpetrate BS about a whole group of people,
I don;t see anything wrong with someone speaking up against just
one man!
Try using the net to hold intellectually stimulating conversations,
instead of pouring venom, then catagorize people!
>
> anban
> kathir
R.
Kris Balasubramanian
But these barking Dogs Meenan and Kathir, don't get it.
Never in the Indian history that the Brahmins forced anything on others. All the popular hindu Gods are not even Brahmin, Rama Krishna etc. When there was freedom
and all the kings that everybody praise had the smarts to implement what they wanted
they never questioned anything. Most of the kings were non-brahmins.
I did not even know of TAMBRAS until this guy talked about it. But these other
brahmin bashing orgs were popularly known. We also know how these brahmin bashing
parties did to TN, in the past 20 years.
Now comes these idiots and are trying to blame every thing on brahmins. These
parasites cannot achieve anything but blame. They are just jeleous.
Balu
Vijay Fafat
Is that statement a reflection on the ground reality in Madras or
an arrogant "It's our birthright to sit on the general side
inspite of seats being empty on the women's side so here's a
snoogle, fly a kite"?
Rajesh Vaidheeswarran
#>In article r...@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca, umpa...@cc.umanitoba.ca (Sumadhi Pandian) writes:
#>>> Dont tell me this does not happen. I am from madras and I have seen
#>>> this happen. When I approached the lady to tell her that she please
#>>> go sit in all those empty ladies seats, she gives me a cold stare.
#>>> GowriSankar Sivaprasad
#>>
#>>>> Sorry mr you have to put up with it.
#
#
# Is that statement a reflection on the ground reality in Madras or
# an arrogant "It's our birthright to sit on the general side
# inspite of seats being empty on the women's side so here's a
# snoogle, fly a kite"?
#
#
#
#
#
kinda disturbing, isnt it?
R.
hcha...@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
> In article <2oiknk$3...@sal-sun121.usc.edu> jaya...@sal-sun121.usc.edu (Prakash Jayaraman) writes:
>>In fact, it is not a reservation scheme. It is a priority scheme, priority
>>for the physically weak. You can't find 'MagaLir mattum' (Women ONLY) seats
>>in those buses.
>
>
> an entire half of the bus. Don't tell me such buses don't
> exist in Madras :-)
>
>
Nee yayuthartha padichaparam, "magalir mattum" a oru "padu mattam"
article a mathittay.
P.S: If you really don't follow Tamil, go find another newsgroup :-)
or ask someone to translate for you
>
-Jayalalitha's #1 Fan...NOT.
>
Geetha Ramaswami
In article <1994Apr13.1...@midway.uchicago.edu> pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes:
>In article <2ogdfl$8...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> rs...@mbue.bio.cam.ac.uk (Renuka Sornarajah) writes:
>>>> Women in Bombay must be stronger. In Delhi, they're definitely
>>>> stronger.
>>
>>defenitely, will men in delhi/bombay dare misbehave :-)
>
****** deleted for brevity**********
I think i over-reacted in my first article. In reacting the way i did,
I've reacted like someone who doesn't want to lose his/her
territory. But i've definitely nothing against/for segregation
of passengers in bus. It is just that LS gave me a little time to relax
or even that little extra time to study after long working hrs at home.
>>yes, what is the ratio of women's poulation in india which goes to
>>school/college or work????? that too in madras??
>
> tell me.
what is the percentage of women posting in this newsgroup????
>>(supporter of "makalEEr mattum" PTC buses :-)
>
> sure. Talk about change in society.
>
will i ever see it????
sure, i for one wd like the society to change its views but if you think
abolition of women only seats and LS will lead to social change all i can
say is please open your eyes :-)
I agree with parthasarathy's posting except for his note. Don't make
generalisations about all women, that they don't give their seats up
for an elderly person,etc. I always do even for women with children
inspite of having books heavier than the children :-)
to Gayathri:
I agree with what you said. it beats me too.
But i think the reason is that the elders (both gender)
have great influence on them when they are children.
the logic is something like this!
If you hear something once and if it is wrong you say and believe so.
but if everyone around you insists that it is right for long
period of time, you begin to doubt yr own judgement and allow
yourselves to lead by others. And not all these people might
have the energy to fight and might have given up.
there might be another group which just enjoy the priveleges :-)
Also i don't agree with you when you say that women put up with lot of
nonsense. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are not fighting for my
freedom. If one starts fighting for every petty thing, the whole fight
might lose its significance. if one has to fight for every single
restrictiom imposed on them at the end of the day they may not have time
for anything else.
I agree with yr pt that one can't get freedom without fight. but
who is going to make them realise their lack of freedom. Basically we need
more jhansi rani, bharathi, etc.. It has nothing to do with education,
for their education tells them to be only good daughters, wives and mothers.
To Srikanth:
I don't think women think that they'll lose their chastity or sanctity,
if men sit near them. If they do, they won't be travelling in buses at
all :-)
Some might feel very uncomfortable with strange men sitting sit near them.
it is more to do with the way they are brought up with. some might
just do it for a show!
But most of the Ladies Special cater to the specific needs of certain
female (or shd i say women :-) schools and colleges and i don't understand
why it irritates so many people.
puththaNdu VAzththukaLudan,
Damu R
is just
my opinion.
I for one feel that "maGaleer mattum" buses are one of best and unique
things in terms of "pragmatic" transportation that Thamizh nadu has to
offer when
compared to other places that I have lived and been to (such as Delhi,
Bombay
and Calcutta).
The Government can not make people feel that men and women are equal
by passing a law and enforcing it with all vigour (IMO) for practical
reasons
of having to get reelected and its purpose is to govern in a sensible
manner.
Social organizations with their own vested (good/bad) have to create the
awareness and fight to change peoples attitude. Education can do its own
bit just as in Kerala (I have never been there. My Malayalee friends tell
me that it is much better than other states because of education).
As somebody who has commuted for years in the trains and buses of Madras
and somebody who knows to some extent what goes on in over crowded buses
I would like my sisters and wife to travel without harassment. Therefore
I like
this part of my state government's practical approach.
Regarding, the shock of outsiders about thamizh women screaming at them
for sitting right next to them, I can sympathize with them to some
extent. I would look at it as an opportunity to learn another unique
part of India. We can learn about the different cultural aspects of the
different regions of India either through books/friends/personal
experience and thus learn to be sensitive to their cultural aspects and
thus know about the diversity, that India is!
As for insiders passing sweeping statements based on their exposure to
Western countries and cities in India with some Western like values, it
shocks me, frankly.
With kudos to the idea of "maGaller mattum" buses
Damu
Sumadhi Pandian
>
> Dont tell me this does not happen. I am from madras and I have seen
> this happen. When I approached the lady to tell her that she please
> go sit in all those empty ladies seats, she gives me a cold stare.
> GowriSankar Sivaprasad
Prabhu Balaraman
out of their minds (Insert profound statements by *.*;*). And hey, they
don't teach Indian women about standing up for the right to be harassed in
buses, etc.. I guess the same thing must then apply to the women here who
(atleast in Madison, WI) have something called the "Women's Transit Authority"
- the equivalent of the Madras "Ladies Specials". Jeez, people seem to be
stepping back in time ...
Vijay Fafat
>> Then I sat in the buses which do have the "women ONLY" seats...
>> an entire half of the bus. Don't tell me such buses don't
>> exist in Madras :-)
>Vijay,
>Nee yayuthartha padichaparam, "magalir mattum" a oru "padu mattam"
>article a mathittay.
>
>P.S: If you really don't follow Tamil, go find another newsgroup :-)
Does that mean I'll follow Tamil if I go find another
newsgroup? :-). Frankly, I don't care what someone writes
in Tamil. Usually, someone sends me a translation. At other
times, I blissfully go on. I'm kind of shameless, you see :-)
But such tactics will not get SCT rid of me *heh heh*
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: From article <CoB4t...@cunews.carleton.ca>, by k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi):
: > anthaNar is not a brahmin by caste or someone who
: > has to wear a thread or somebody who feigns pakthi
: > by reciting undecipherable words.
: what a brahmin does wearing a thread and reciting words that are undecipherable
: (to you!) is his business. if you can make a point without letting
: your baser emotions showing up on the net, then the net would be a
: better place.
Read your friends mail. He was categorizing
brahmin=anthaNars. Well there could be people like
paramahmasar who can fit both but just safely
defining one whole community based on birth as
anthaNar is wrong. The people of upper-castes
who run RSS and GODSE cannot come under
anthaNar definition of kuRaL. It talks
about quality of a person and transcends all barriers.
That is all.
: > There are anthaNars in all communities.
: > It transcends all caste, creed and color.
: > It talks about the quality of a person
: > and does not categorize people on birth
: > as brahmanical texts do.
: >
: >
: > Again yours uncivil words in the
: > net against periyaar and the words you
: > used in your reply to Vijay
: > shows which category you belong to.
: >
: I fail to understand how a person so filled with hatred towards
: one sect of people (read brahmins) call others "uncivil" . If you
: can use this net to perpetrate BS about a whole group of people,
: I don;t see anything wrong with someone speaking up against just
: one man!
You are making assumptions probably based
on guilt. uncivil and mean are the words that define
people who resort to name calling and mudslinging.
The net will be a better place if your friends
do not mudsling thamizh leaders like periyaar and
resort to fourletter words on a simple thread like
"Can a Tamil become PM".
anban
kathir
: Try using the net to hold intellectually stimulating conversations,
C. R. Selvakumar
Srikant Sridevan <s...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>I do not dispute the fact that some seats probably need to be reserved
>for them since they *are* physically weaker than men. I also agree that
What a 'screwed up' reason is this ? ( immitation
is the best form of flattery or a strong form of
sarcasm :-) )
One can think that the 'common seats' are reserved for
'free-for-alls' and the ladies seats are reserved for ladies
who usually don't want to compete with 'free-for-alls'.
>eveteasing is a serious problem in India. Do *you* concede that the
>attitude of the women travelling in Madras buses that any and all men
>are out to "rid them of their chastity and virtue" is a problem? There
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is no "larger sense" in women being idiots rather than men. I was merely
>curious to find out whether the same seriously screwed mentality was an
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>all-TN phenomenon or just a Madras phenomenon, having never lived
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>outside Madras.
There are many like you who don't understand that
the 'values' can be different in different
communities/cultures. I read your 'getting pregnant'
comments too. Certain cultural practices might sound
'strange' to some ( based on their 'familiar' culture)
but one has to learn to understand. There are tamil women
who do many daring things too.. it is all shaped
by the prevailing vlaue system/needs ( which can change).
That tamil people give importance to chastity and
they ( most of them it appears) consider it as a virtue
need not be ridiculed like you do.
If some women consider certain behaviors
of strangers beyond some limit, you better respect it !
If they give you a glare, they are telling you that you're
crossing the limits. You unscrewed up civilized ones, why
can't you respect that ?
[ what is moral, what is a reasonable limit etc.
are evolutionary within the respective cultures
and there is no absolutism about it. ]
>Is the context of my question now clear?
>
>Thanks,
>Srikant
>Bierwissenschaftenstudent
>e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
anbudan -Selvaa
Thirumalai-Anand
E.V.Ramaswamy Naicker was never a leader of the brahmin community.
How can u categorise a person who was against a whole tamil community
as a leader of tamils.
As far as I am concerned, EVR was a mudslinger and hate monger.
He wanted to drive away the brahmin community from tamilnadu.
Unfortunately, some people bought his ideas and were brainwashed.
One of them is you.
no anbu towards a person who hates my community
varadhan
|> resort to fourletter words on a simple thread like
|> "Can a Tamil become PM".
|>
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
|>
|> : Try using the net to hold intellectually stimulating conversations,
|> : instead of pouring venom, then catagorize people!
|>
|> : >
|> : > anban
|> : > kathir
|>
|>
|>
|>
|> : R.
--
Vijay Fafat
>>>yes, what is the ratio of women's poulation in india which goes to
>>>school/college or work????? that too in madras??
>> tell me.
>
>what is the percentage of women posting in this newsgroup????
pretty high, if SCI is used as a benchmark. But I still don't get the
original point and there's an added confusion now : how is
the no. of women posters here indicative of the ratio above?
>>>(supporter of "makalEEr mattum" PTC buses :-)
>> sure. Talk about change in society.
>
>will i ever see it????
not with the attitude shown above. You missed the askance :-)
>sure, i for one wd like the society to change its views but if you think
>abolition of women only seats and LS will lead to social change all i can
>say is please open your eyes :-)
I have four, btw :-). Society isn't some ethereal entity sitting
out there, changing its views with whim. *you* have to work for
it. As Gayathri put it, women's rights isn't just a matter of
someone else *granting* it to them. They have to make an effort
for it, too. I do agree that the cushy situation of having
reserved seats is hard to give up but just putting forth the
argument of "these dirty Madrasi men" (heh :) ) is wimpish. Why
else did you think I talked about women in Bombay and how the
pawer get a hiding when a woman doesn't take some nonsense? Are
you telling me that if you were subjected to some advances in the
*crowded* PTC bus and you lambasted the guy, he wouldn't atleast
back off and perhaps get a few slaps from the chivalrous guys
around? :-).
>I agree with yr pt that one can't get freedom without fight. but
>who is going to make them realise their lack of freedom. Basically we need
>more jhansi rani, bharathi, etc.. It has nothing to do with education,
>for their education tells them to be only good daughters, wives and mothers.
and of course, the Jhansi Rani and Bharathi shd fight with
"every petty little thing", as you put it, for someone who
would rather have someone else fight her fight for her. Sure
I believe you long for social change.
Vijay Fafat
>I for one feel that "maGaleer mattum" buses are one of best and unique
>things in terms of "pragmatic" transportation that Thamizh nadu has to
what's this with "Thamizh" Nadu? Or is it because of some
transliteration scheme being followed?
>bit just as in Kerala (I have never been there. My Malayalee friends tell
>me that it is much better than other states because of education).
Not just education. It has to do with the social outlook of the
people. Walk with a young woman in Madras and you get dirty
looks from passersby :-). Nothing of that sort happens in
Bombay, where you do get looks but of slight envy, maybe :)
>Regarding, the shock of outsiders about thamizh women screaming at them
>for sitting right next to them, I can sympathize with them to some
>extent. I would look at it as an opportunity to learn another unique
>part of India. We can learn about the different cultural aspects of the
O yeah. Perhaps you might want to look at Sati in Rajasthan as
a different and perhaps, even unique, cultural aspect. I'll
be damned if I let a Tamil harridan justify her harangue as
"cultural upbringing" :-)
FFT, an innocent :) victim of "cultural upbringing which stinks".
Geetha Ramaswami
>In article <2oo8ja$9...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> G.P.Ra...@amtp.cam.ac.uk ( Geetha Ramaswami) writes:
>>>>yes, what is the ratio of women's poulation in india which goes to
>>>>school/college or work????? that too in madras??
>>> tell me.
>>
>>what is the percentage of women posting in this newsgroup????
>
> pretty high, if SCI is used as a benchmark. But I still don't get the
> original point and there's an added confusion now : how is
> the no. of women posters here indicative of the ratio above?
>
I was pointing just out that the no. of women working/studying
is very much lower than that of men very similar to the postings
by women in the newsgroup. And that might be the reason you saw
lesser women in the bus. hope it clears yr confusion now :)
>>>>(supporter of "makalEEr mattum" PTC buses :-)
>>> sure. Talk about change in society.
>>
>>will i ever see it????
>
> not with the attitude shown above. You missed the askance :-)
no, you missed the pt. i did change my attitude when i realised i am being
selfish. you've conveniently deleted my first few lines to suit yr pt:)
>>sure, i for one wd like the society to change its views but if you think
>>abolition of women only seats and LS will lead to social change all i can
>>say is please open your eyes :-)
>
> I have four, btw :-). Society isn't some ethereal entity sitting
lucky you :-)
> out there, changing its views with whim. *you* have to work for
> it. As Gayathri put it, women's rights isn't just a matter of
> someone else *granting* it to them. They have to make an effort
I agree here.
> for it, too. I do agree that the cushy situation of having
> reserved seats is hard to give up but just putting forth the
> argument of "these dirty Madrasi men" (heh :) ) is wimpish. Why
I won't generalise, but read below and pass your judgement!
> else did you think I talked about women in Bombay and how the
> pawer get a hiding when a woman doesn't take some nonsense? Are
> you telling me that if you were subjected to some advances in the
> *crowded* PTC bus and you lambasted the guy, he wouldn't atleast
> back off and perhaps get a few slaps from the chivalrous guys
> around? :-).
>
unfortunately the last part of it won't happen in my beloved state :) the
peace loving madrasi guys would atmost shout at him "why he was harassing
a woman" (enaiyya, pombalaikitta vampu mannittu, velai parthunnu povayA??)
and the guy embarassed will get down at the next stop only to get into the
next one.
>>I agree with yr pt that one can't get freedom without fight. but
>>who is going to make them realise their lack of freedom. Basically we need
>>more jhansi rani, bharathi, etc.. It has nothing to do with education,
>>for their education tells them to be only good daughters, wives and mothers.
>
>
> and of course, the Jhansi Rani and Bharathi shd fight with
> "every petty little thing", as you put it, for someone who
> would rather have someone else fight her fight for her. Sure
> I believe you long for social change.
>
>
doesn't get into yr head? is it?
I was harassed once in the crowded bus, but when i complained i was told if
i want to be a pathini (chaste wife) i shd have rather stayed at home.
[and i didin't complain that i lost my chastity :)]
Can i conclude here that all men are cowards here???
But the fact is they don't care. If it has been their wife/sister/mother
do you think they wd kept their mouth shut??? (actually they might and get
out of the buses with their women :) all thay want is to get to their
work/home in time and noone cares what goes around them. And tell me what
is the use of me shouting more abuses at him?? this is not a isolated
incident. most of the time this what happens or the conductor might
throw him out of the bus and sure enough he will find another bus.
I won't say all *madrasi men* are wimpish :)
When i was mentioning Jhanci Rani/Bharathi, I wasn't saying that women
need someone fight the battles for them. Rather they need someone to inspire
them to fight for their freedom/ realise their lack of it and fight for the
same. If i have to give a parallel, why did we need
great leaders to get our independence?? whom do women have Indira, jeyalalitha?
And by petty things i meant i don't care on which side of the bus i travel
compared to fight to have education/career, to be able to do what i want
to do with my life.
Only when women can walk alone at midnight without the fear of being attacked,
India is really free, according to Gandhi. look at the state of the society,
women can't travel even in the daylight without getting hassled/abused/
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# In article <2oov11...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>
Damu R <dr...@cornell.edu> writes:
# >things in terms of "pragmatic" transportation that Thamizh nadu has to
# what's this with "Thamizh" Nadu? Or is it because of some
# transliteration scheme being followed?
`thamizh' is the how it is pronounced in `thamizh':-) tongue.
tamil is what the brits used, tamoul what the french said....
and tamil is what it is among educated thamizhs:-) It is like
say how english is called in thamizh - aangilam (like kinda
angrEzi in hindi). So you say angrEzi (do you? :-) I say
aangilam and Alec Stewart says english and you say tamil, Alec
Stewart says tamil and Damu and I say thamizh.
# a different and perhaps, even unique, cultural aspect. I'll
# be damned if I let a Tamil harridan justify her harangue as
# "cultural upbringing" :-)
# FFT, an innocent :) victim of "cultural upbringing which stinks".
mOgam muppathu naaL?? aasai arupathu naaL?? oh well......
--Badri.
[PS: I know you will get the above translated:-]
--
------------------------
S.Badrinarayanan
Dept. of Mech. and Aero.
Cornell University
------------------------
MF...@utcvm.utc.edu
`piRappokkum ellaa vuyirkkum..."
and give your interpretation.
anban
kathir
There is no value in being intelligent (aRivu) if one lacks character
(paNpu).
Very true! Perhaps this netter wishes to say that brahmins are
intelligent but lack character. More about this in an another posting.
Now, let us pause and take stock of what kind of paNpu the TN
kazhakaththaar possess for we already know what kind of
intelligence they have!
From most recent into the past:
1. Jayalalitha: Whether the netter in question likes it or not
she is accepted as the undisputed leader by the kazhakam
that traces its ancestry to none other than Annathurai and
E.V.R. No elaboration is needed for the paNbu that the
kazhakaththaar see in her.
2. M.G.R. perunNthalaivar Kamaraj said of MGR, "orE
kuttaiyil ooriya mattai." While no one would deny MGR's
generosity to the poor his fascist tendencies are well
known, not to mention usurping the title of King of oozhal
from M.K. No paNbu to be seen in that.
3. M.K. The undisputed King of oozhal. On MK's urging
Mr. Duraimurugan, a D.M.K. MLA pulled Jayalalitha's
saree in TN legislature, paNbu that kazhakaththaar
can take pride in!
4. Annathurai: Short lived administration. Did not have
enough time to show the people about his paNbu.
Considering the kind of paNbu his followers are exhibiting,
I wonder!
5. E.V.R. What kind of paNbu can one see in a man who
preached hatred against a particular group of people?
While the people of India north and south, hindu and
muslim, literate and illiterate struggled against the
oppression of the British rule, this man supported the rule
of British imperialists. His sympathies for the Justice
party that wished the continuation of the British rule in
India is well known.
Another of this netter's favorite causes is LTTE. LTTE is the
very antithesis of paNbu.
Now, let us define paNbu:
anbudaimai Anra kudippiRaththal evviraNdum
paNbudaimai ennum vazhakku
What can we say about those who keep spewing anti-brahmin
venom in the net:
payanil sol paaraattu vaanai makan enal
makkat pathati yenal
What about the one who keeps complaining about the
achievements of the 3%:
aRan Akkam vENdaathaan enbaan piRnaakkam
pENaathu azhukaRup paan
Look for my future posting on the concept of "brahminism" a pejorative
term concocted by some for the purpose of poisoning the minds of
unsuspecting readers.
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
>
[...]
>
> I agree with what you said. it beats me too.
> But i think the reason is that the elders (both gender)
> have great influence on them when they are children.
> the logic is something like this!
> If you hear something once and if it is wrong you say and believe so.
> but if everyone around you insists that it is right for long
> period of time, you begin to doubt yr own judgement and allow
> yourselves to lead by others. And not all these people might
> have the energy to fight and might have given up.
There is truth in what you said. Changing anything needs courage and
yes, energy, and not all may have that energy. It is one thing to
have a conviction, and another to have the courage of one's conviction.
> there might be another group which just enjoy the priveleges :-)
I didn't understand this sentence.
>
> Also i don't agree with you when you say that women put up with lot of
> nonsense. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are not fighting for
> freedom. If one starts fighting for every petty thing, the whole fight
> might lose its significance. if one has to fight for every single
> restrictiom imposed on them at the end of the day they may not have time
> for anything else.
No, I'm not saying one should start fighting for every petty thing.
We are not children to petulantly demand instant gratification of every
single wish :-). I'm talking about what I consider major - like fending
off a guy who tries the paws on you in a crowded bus; shouting at a
cheapo who makes an indecent proposition late in the night as you wait
for a bus; protesting against having id cards given to 2 designated people
who may be permitted to visit you in a hostel; protesting against being
permitted to step out of the hostel only twice a month even when you are
old enough to do grad school. Things like that.
I think women who have represented their classmates/hostelmates/female
co-students and have faced the frustrations that I did would know what
I'm talking about. In my college, I didn't have this id-card system
(believe me, they tried, and it failed for some reason) but had to
personally argue(fight) with 1 warden, 3 resident tutors and a vice principal,
since I had "defied" the "order" of my warden and visited my father who
was ill. I was not "permitted" to visit him, even after showing a letter
from my mother saying he was ill. While the men students in the same
college had practically no restrictions, needn't inform anyone wherever
they went...In my final year, I had to fight for us women students to be
allowed to compete in an inter-collegiate function in another town (as
for male students, they could go where they wanted). During every single
occasion, even if it concerned all the women students and the women
themselves didn't like things as they were, I had little or no support.
My sympathy is with the women - but I have reason to be angry as well.
> I agree with yr pt that one can't get freedom without fight. but
> who is going to make them realise their lack of freedom.
Discriminatiom begins at home, and exists throughout a woman's life
at sometime or the other. I doubt if women haven't realized at some
point in their life that their only crime was being women. The energy
and anger to fight for basic respect from fellow human beings comes
when one considers freedom one's birthright (like Tilak's famous
quote "Freedom is my birthright and I shall have it" - may he pardon
me for quoting him a li'l out of context) and not something that
*society* has to give one; from this internal awareness would come
the feeling of "Hey, you are denying me what is *mine*".
It may be true that society is changing for the better as far as
women are concerned. But women (at least Indian women) aren't helping
it majorly - by and large, they just want things to be easy. But
for those women who can't wait until the next generation (or the one
after that) for *society* to change and for them to be respected as
fellow human beings with equal rights, I would say "When you feel
strongly against something, protest !"
> Basically we need
> more jhansi rani, bharathi, etc.. It has nothing to do with education,
> for their education tells them to be only good daughters, wives and mothers.
Jhansi Rani wasn't alone on the battlefield - she had soldiers as well,
to fight alongside her :-). Even if there are few leaders among women,
and few women's rights activists, we certainly need women who aren't
too chicken to offer support and do what they can to make life better
for themselves.
[..]
Gayathri.
P.S: This is my last post on this thread, since this thread is getting to
long for me to cope. It was good discussing this issue with several people on
the net.
Damu R
pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <2oov11...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> Damu R
<dr...@cornell.edu> writes:
> what's this with "Thamizh" Nadu? Or is it because of some
> transliteration scheme being followed?
>
see Badri's explanation. Tamil is the slaughtered version of
Thamizh (which again is closer to the way its is enunciated
but not really perfect)
>>bit just as in Kerala (I have never been there. My Malayalee friends
tell
>>me that it is much better than other states because of education).
>
> Not just education.
I think education is one of the key factors in terms of women
asserting their place in society. But for "maGaleer mattum"
buses it is probably a insignificant factor.
It has to do with the social outlook of the
> people.
In some senses, it is. If you see the historical context which has made
us have different "local value" systems in India, I am sure you would
say that statements such as the above "........social outlook" is purely
judgemental. Let me explain in detail what I have seen and believe.
We (the different regions of India) all had exposure to the Western
and in particular the English value system. Different regions of India
absorbed what they considered was the best/most valuable thing
in the British. We, in the province of Thamizh Nadu rejected
most of the social values of the British (I think I can make the
above statement for the rest of the people of the State as British
social values are by and large rejected by cultural elite at the
community level). In most of the urban North (particularly,
Bombay and Delhi) some British social values such as drinking
alcohol in social meetings, dressing up in three piece suites
with ties have been absorbed without much trouble. What shocked
me in those sorroundings was the hatred towards the English
language by people dressed up like the British in high levels of
our government, who in the evenings did not
wink their eyelid in accepting strange social customs (My sister
who happens to interact with very high level officials in the
Indian Central Government used to come home disgusted at
acts such as wife swapping, ........................other things that I
would rather not discuss here).
The bottom line, IMO, is that having accepted/rejected different
aspects of the British that we (the different regions) thought was
O.K. and transfering those thoughts/values to the next generation,
the feeling of judging each other from perceived values of
forward/backward ness has come up. What appears to be backward
to you is something that I perceive to be the "local" cultural value
and vice versa.
It is quite easy to see that both the North and South has rejected
the value of "punctuality" !!, to value others time as ones,
organizational skills, meticulous record keeping, and that people
can not classified by birth! Perhaps from a Westerners point of view
all of us are backward!
>
Walk with a young woman in Madras and you get dirty
> looks from passersby :-). Nothing of that sort happens in
> Bombay, where you do get looks but of slight envy, maybe :)
Is it personal experience too :-) I don't want to poke u and get
more details! Madam, might be reading this :-)
Let me give u (sorry, not exactly you. Some other aspiring friend
of yours who is from Madras) some help :-). In Madras, there are
places where these things can be done with everybody around you
accepting it in a discrete fashion!. It is just that, you got to know
these places. And these places are at the intersection of every street!
and they are often times called temples.
Other places include, the Public Libraries, the Beach,
the Market place, cinema theatre, etc. A word of caution though!
It has to be done the right way and young people who grow up in
Madras, with this interest, learn the ropes/tricks of the trade in
a very young age!! This method has its own thrill as hanging out
in the open.
>>Regarding, the shock of outsiders about thamizh women screaming at them
>>for sitting right next to them, I can sympathize with them to some
>>extent. I would look at it as an opportunity to learn another unique
>>part of India. We can learn about the different cultural aspects of the
>
>
> O yeah. Perhaps you might want to look at Sati in Rajasthan as
> a different and perhaps, even unique, cultural aspect. I'll
> be damned if I let a Tamil harridan justify her harangue as
> "cultural upbringing" :-)
>
> FFT, an innocent :) victim of "cultural upbringing which stinks".
That was quite an extension, Vijay :-). Sati is/was well known in
Thamizh Nadu and a lot of experts in the net have written about it.
Our SP wrote about its popularity in the ages of Sangam (late B.C. to
early A.D.).
May be, you should consider living in Thamizh Nadu to acquire
some "unique cultural aspects". With your great penchant for
lungi/vEshti you would enjoy yourself haranguing in colloquial
Thamizh :-) Believe me, it is great fun to harass violators of our
culture :-) :-)
Damu who enjoys haranguing " innaada, kabothi payalE! voottula solikittuna
vanthukeera! keezhduvEn, keezhi" in Madras Baashai.
>
Sumadhi Pandian
># an arrogant "It's our birthright to sit on the general side
># inspite of seats being empty on the women's side so here's a
># snoogle, fly a kite"?
>#
>>>> my dear thamil(t.n) guys, why are you guys go aha aha aha when women
>>>> open their mouth ? i am a women from madurai - a mouthy one....oops
>
Vijay Fafat
[non-controversial stuff deleted :)]
> Walk with a young woman in Madras and you get dirty
> Is it personal experience too :-) I don't want to poke u and get
> more details! Madam, might be reading this :-)
> Let me give u (sorry, not exactly you. Some other aspiring friend
> of yours who is from Madras) some help :-). In Madras, there are
> places where these things can be done with everybody around you
> accepting it in a discrete fashion!.
whoa there! By "walking", I meant just that : walking. It really
doesn't help if I have to go from A to B and have to walk discretely
in the nearby temple or library, does it? :-)
I suppose you were referring to Srikant Sridevan when you talked
about my "other aspiring friend". So Srikant, where do you go
discretely, huh? huh? *grin* notty boy.
Vijay Fafat
[nice tutorial on Thamizh Nadu deleted]
># FFT, an innocent :) victim of "cultural upbringing which stinks".
>
>mOgam muppathu naaL?? aasai arupathu naaL?? oh well......
Bladdy mosam paiyyan...$#%#$%@#%*^%&$%*(%^$#!@#@$
Vijay Fafat
[some allegations and counter-allegations deleted :)]
>unfortunately the last part of it won't happen in my beloved state :) the
> peace loving madrasi guys would atmost shout at him "why he was harassing
>a woman" (enaiyya, pombalaikitta vampu mannittu, velai parthunnu povayA??)
> and the guy embarassed will get down at the next stop only to get into the
>next one.
which is probably a beginning, no?
>When i was mentioning Jhanci Rani/Bharathi, I wasn't saying that women
>need someone fight the battles for them. Rather they need someone to inspire
>them to fight for their freedom/ realise their lack of it and fight for the
>same. If i have to give a parallel, why did we need
>great leaders to get our independence?? whom do women have Indira,
>jeyalalitha?
point well taken and noted. I will now back off from my
original position and take back some of the harsher words :-)
FFT
Srikant Sridevan
In article <1994Apr18.0...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes:
> I suppose you were referring to Srikant Sridevan when you talked
> about my "other aspiring friend". So Srikant, where do you go
> discretely, huh? huh? *grin* notty boy.
>
I am pretty certain I am not the one he meant. Anyway, I shall respond
to this. Well, those were the days Stella Maris women used to mill
around us. Its very difficult being "discrete" in such a scenario. ;-) I,
thusly, hasten to dispel any notions that I needed to restrict my
"aspirations" to sitting next to women in PTC buses.
One more thing I've noticed is that TN men are very reluctant to bring
their spouses to occasions such as office get-togethers. Has anyone else
seen this kind of behaviour? In TN? Outside TN (nonTN men)?
Srikant
--
--
Bierwissenschaftenstudent
e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
Sumadhi Pandian
well people, all men are not bad in t.n- very true
say 90% is very good, 10% bad ones.
i figure those 10% are living out of india- are hooked in to this net.(s.c.i)
hi hi not all of them okay,....a joke.
sumathi.pandian
Vijay Fafat
>well people, all men are not bad in t.n- very true
>say 90% is very good, 10% bad ones.
90% of lungis good? Good God! :-)
Non-lungi
C. R. Selvakumar
Daniel C. Gnanaprakasam <dan...@marl12.marl.panasonic.com> wrote:
>
>Why are you against TAMBRAS alone. I don't see similar outbursts from
>you against other caste based organizations like - Nadar organization,
>Chettiar Organization, Vanniar Organization, Christian Nadar organization,
>Christian Vanniar org. ( Yes, Christians have org. based on castes), etc.
I don't recall that Kathiravan said he is against TAMBRAS
or TAMBRAS alone. I could very well have been mistaken.
If I recall correectly he said he is against 'Brahminism'
( whatever he meant by this !). Has Kathiravan given
outbursts against TAMBRAS organization ? ( I'm quite aware
he had been against certain brahminical practices ).
I'm writing this response to point out how some of you
who are critical of Kathiravan are resorting to unfair
distortion of his views.
>
>Are you saying that Brahmins are not allowed to form an organization?
I don't think kathiravan or anybody else said this. Please
correct me if I'm wrong.
>Correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that TAMBRAS came into
>existence after repeated physical assaults on the Brahmin community by
>the DK people, as an organization to protect the community and its interests.
>It's just another caste based organization, like zillion others that
>exist in the state. I don't beleive TAMBRAS goal is to promote Brahminism.
-----------------------------------------------------
A couple of questions comments about these 5 lines above and the
underlined part:
[1] While you may be partially correct in guessing the reasons
for starting the TAMBRAS, did you ask yourselves why
the 'anti-brahmin' movements came into existence ?
If you go back in history and see brahmins were treated
with extreme respect until very recent times. Please
ask the 'physical assaults' and numerous discriminations
the vast majority of wealth-producing people had
suffered under brahmin-and-upper-castes people. But for
a person like Periyaar in the forefront of such an
anti-brahmin movement, there could have been a great
violent calamity. There should be some honest appraisal
of circumstances. Can you tell me how many 'brahmins'
were 'lynched, killed etc.' ? And ask same questions
about the lower castes in the past in TN !
[2] What is your basis for believeing that TAMBRAS goal is
not to promote Brahminism ? Are you implying that
Brahminism is bad ? What do you mean by Brahminism ?
Since you seem to speak with some knowledge about TAMBRAS,
can you tell us what are the things it is promoting ?
>If some group of people constantly harrass and assault me and my family
>in my neighborhood based on my caste to which I was born into, I would
>definetely form an organization to protect myself.
This is apparently the same reason for opposing
some of the practices of brahminis by those who suffered
very cruel social discriminations and very real
physical abuses including lynching, killing and
inflicting psychologically disempowering diseases.
Even very recently Indian Vice President (!) Narayanan
was ill-treated/insulted while receiving his degree ( a University
First Ranker) which he did not receive in the convocation
of his gratuating year ( to protest againt the discriminations
he faced even after passing his degree with a first rank and
the person responsible was a well known Tamil belonging to
Iyer community and this strory apperared in Hindu !)
>
>Why do you think, that proclaiming one's belief in
>public (however stupid that maybe) is so objectionable, when everybody
>else is given that right. Why do have problems in what people believe
>and proclaim as Hinduism, as long as it is not forced upon others.
>Mr. Bangaru Adigalar, believes something else is Hinduism and he is
>freely proclaiming it in public and he has a much larger following in TN.
> If you believe somethingelse is Hinduism feel free to form an organization
>and proclaim it. It's your right and nobody is against it.
>daniel
>Daniel C. Gnanaprakasam Phone: (609) 386-5995 Ext: 127
>Matsushita Applied Research Labs. Fax: (609) 386-4999
>95D Conneticut Drive e-mail: dan...@marl.research.panasonic.com
>Burlington, NJ 08016
I kindly request, Kathiravan to resist making inflamatory
postings against Brahmins. There are good and bad people in
every community. If Kathiravan or others want to criticize
certain aspects ( say clanish behavior of Brahmins or
Nadars or some other community resorting to unfair methods,
ior propagating discriminatory
thoughts such as one group is 'born superior' etc. )
they should do so in a manner which is conducive for
considering the issues rather than fueling growth of
ill-feeling against a group of people.
On the same token, many nettors who criticize Kathiravan
are quite silent on racial slurs ( 'chimps' etc.) and are
very partisan in their 'discussions'.
Those who attack Periyaar should consider the relevant
history, facts, etc. in a balanced manner and discuss as
sane adults. The contributions of Periyaar are among the
most important ones in the context of TN but some of his
thoughts and actions might be worthy of being criticized/debated.
To imagine anyone who speaks well of Periyaar as
an anti-brahmin or brahmin-basher is to miss an opportunity
for constructive understanding, imo.
anbudan -Selvaa
Srikant Sridevan
In article <CoDLH...@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>,
selv...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (C. R. Selvakumar) writes:
>In article <2ol08p$8...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
>Srikant Sridevan <s...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>>I do not dispute the fact that some seats probably need to be reserved
>>for them since they *are* physically weaker than men. I also agree that
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> What a 'screwed up' reason is this ? ( immitation
> is the best form of flattery or a strong form of
> sarcasm :-) )
> One can think that the 'common seats' are reserved for
> 'free-for-alls' and the ladies seats are reserved for ladies
> who usually don't want to compete with 'free-for-alls'.
Fantastic. Is the unwillingness to compete with others the same reasons
for reservation in education and employment? Come now Sir, the reason
for all reservation is a perceived weakness in a particular set of
people. If those people are considered to be as "strong" as the others,
it would be foolish to accord them special rights just because of their
unwillingness to compete.
I call the "handicap" faced by the set of people as weakness. This
"handicap" could either be a lack of opportunity as is the case with
SC/STs or lack of sheer physical strength as is the case for women.
> There are many like you who don't understand that
> the 'values' can be different in different
> communities/cultures. I read your 'getting pregnant'
> comments too. Certain cultural practices might sound
I am flattered indeed.
> 'strange' to some ( based on their 'familiar' culture)
> but one has to learn to understand. There are tamil women
May I "understand" apartheid using this argument? Does *your* understanding
that certain cultural practices might sound strange prevent you from
criticizing these practices?
> who do many daring things too.. it is all shaped
> by the prevailing vlaue system/needs ( which can change).
> That tamil people give importance to chastity and
> they ( most of them it appears) consider it as a virtue
> need not be ridiculed like you do.
Chastity is a fine quality indeed. To think that this fine
qualities is in jeopardy because a man sits next to one *is* a
seriously screwed mentality.
> If some women consider certain behaviors
> of strangers beyond some limit, you better respect it !
> If they give you a glare, they are telling you that you're
> crossing the limits. You unscrewed up civilized ones, why
> can't you respect that ?
Sure I will. And if I think that these "limits" are ridiculous, I *am*
going to criticize it.
>
> [ what is moral, what is a reasonable limit etc.
> are evolutionary within the respective cultures
> and there is no absolutism about it. ]
Once again, I request permission to use this argument to
justify/understand apartheid.
Thanks,
C. R. Selvakumar
Kris Balasubramanian <kri...@sparcle.EBay.Sun.COM> wrote:
>Well said Daniel. This is what I have been trying to tell for a long time.
>But these barking Dogs Meenan and Kathir, don't get it.
----------------------------------------------
I wonder what you're doing ! :-)
>
>Never in the Indian history that the Brahmins forced anything on others.
>All the popular hindu Gods are not even Brahmin, Rama Krishna etc.
---------------------------------------
>When there was freedom
>and all the kings that everybody praise had the smarts to
>implement what they wanted
Balu, you're quite hilarious !
So in your book some 'Gods' are 'brahmin' and others are
non-brahmin ? I know that some forms of God or practices
of worship are popular in some communities or peoples,
I didn't know that some 'Gods' were 'not even Brahmin' !! :-)
>they never questioned anything. Most of the kings were non-brahmins.
>
>I did not even know of TAMBRAS until this guy talked about it. But these other
>brahmin bashing orgs were popularly known.
>We also know how these brahmin bashing
----------------------------------------
>parties did to TN, in the past 20 years.
---------------------------------------
It is a fact that the governments since 1967 have ruined
many things ( economics etc.) in TN but what has that to do
with 'brahmin-bashing' ? I don't think TN CM Ms. Jayalalitha
has been brahmin-bashing but has she done much good ?
DMK and AIDMK came to power by giving prominence to Tamil
and several anti-upper caste sentiments ( particularly
anti-brahminism), but their poor-performance has nothing to
do with 'anti-brahminism or anti-upper-casteism or giving
prominence to tamil..
>Now comes these idiots and are trying to blame every thing on brahmins. These
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>parasites cannot achieve anything but blame. They are just jeleous.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you have so much anger, imagine how much anger there must be for
people who have suffered under machiavellian upper-casteism ?!
Consider the issues in an honest manner, if I may request you !
There were many great brahmins. There were many compassionate
brahmins. There were many intelligent, constructive and
resourceful brahmins who contributed enormously in many fields.
But there were quite a few unfair, dishonest and divisive
brahmins. The sad thing is because most of those who call themselves
as brahmins clanishly upholding the divisive, racist views,
the vast majority of people lost irreplaceable evolutionary
developments. The best thing is not to feel hung up about the
past but to march ahead with constructive optimism and
firmly eschewing divisive racist views. There is strong need for
genuine understanding from all concerned.
>Balu
anbudan -Selvaa
santanu bhattacharyya
>> I was harassed once in the crowded bus, but when i complained i was told if
>i want to be a pathini (chaste wife) i shd have rather stayed at home.
>[and i didin't complain that i lost my chastity :)]
>Can i conclude here that all men are cowards here???
>But the fact is they don't care. If it has been their wife/sister/mother
>do you think they wd kept their mouth shut??? (actually they might and get
And here's the converse. This happened on a Calcutta bus some
twelve odd years ago, when I was in my late teens. I was standing
close to the front of the bus and suddenly noticed this guy leaning
into this kid (She could have hardly been twelve or thirteen) and the
kid trying to shrink away as far as possible. She was obviously
suffering great discomfort and as I stood there seething with fury, hoping,
nay, almost praying that she would utter one word of protest and I
could pounce on the guy and tear that leering face into shreds. But
the unwritten rule on a Calcutta bus, indeed in almost all facets of
the Indian existential condition, is quite simple, you as an outsider
are helpless to take action unless the victim protests or explicitly
asks for help. All too often I have seen protests by other people on
behalf of women being so harassed, turned against the protesters
themselves. "Ki Dada, nagar laage naki?" "Hey man, is that your lover
or what?" is a common and often heard sentence on such occasions. I
had heard it often enough to risk it, so after waiting and watching
and hoping for a protest for quite some time as the bus wended its
awkward way through the crowded streets of Calcutta, and nearly
physically sick with rage, I finally moved to the back of the bus. I
then taught myself to completely ignore such incidents, despite
realising what a travesty it was of my self image as Mr Fairplay. The
point is simple, if the oppressed doesn't protest, the bystanders
can't do a damn thing, and whenever I hear women come up with stories
like the Geetha's this incidence comes back to haunt me. I just don't
know if I did the right thing.....
Santanu
Geetha Ramaswami
>
>
>I do not dispute the fact that some seats probably need to be reserved
>for them since they *are* physically weaker than men. I also agree that
>attitude of the women travelling in Madras buses that any and all men
>are out to "rid them of their chastity and virtue" is a problem? There
do you have other than yr own experience to substantiate the
above statement?? Even in yr own experience the woman just gazed at you.
may be the woman just looked up to see who her fellow companion was?
no, may be she just wondered why a man would come and sit on
the seat reserved for women?
How on earth did you come to the conclusion that the woman thought that
her chastity is lost??
Even if you had someone shouting at you (which is very unlikely) that her
chastity is lost (which no woman would do if you just sat next to her)
why should you generalise that to every woman travelling in madras?
and have you travelled in long distance buses from/to madras?
they don't have any seats reserved for women and are crowded.
for example, the buses to thiruvaLLur,
Sriperambudar, Kanchipuram etc. One thing i noticed is (i used to travel
a lot) that the eve-teasing/misbehaviour is almost extinct. may be it is
only my own unique experience :)
Can i use the above argument and my experience
to say that all madrasi men are bad??
>is no "larger sense" in women being idiots rather than men. I was merely
>curious to find out whether the same seriously screwed mentality was an
>all-TN phenomenon or just a Madras phenomenon, having never lived
>outside Madras.
first establish the screwed-up mentality exists among madrasi women.
slightly off the context, about two years ago, I was sitting in men's side
(can't remember why?) in madurai. I was asked to get up when two men got up
in the next stop which i did. never happened to me ever before (not in madras
anyway:)
a madrasi woman,
Geetha.
ps: am i the only madrasi women around ?:-)
Sridhar Venkataraman
| >Why are you against TAMBRAS alone. I don't see similar outbursts from
| >you against other caste based organizations like - Nadar organization,
| >Chettiar Organization, Vanniar Organization, Christian Nadar organization,
| >Christian Vanniar org. ( Yes, Christians have org. based on castes), etc.
|
| I don't recall that Kathiravan said he is against TAMBRAS
| or TAMBRAS alone. I could very well have been mistaken.
* There were articles from Kathiravan denouncing TAMBRAS.
* There weren't any articles from Kathiravan denouncing other
organizations which are equally guilty of being a caste-oriented
organization that TAMBRAS supposedly is (acc. to Kathiravan).
In light of the above 'facts' reg. soc.culture.tamil postings, the
conclusions by Daniel makes sense.
| I'm writing this response to point out how some of you
| who are critical of Kathiravan are resorting to unfair
| distortion of his views.
I'm writing this response to point out how some of you
who are critical of some postings are resorting to unfair
distortion of such postings given the fact that the 'some of you' are
not keen on following soc.culture.tamil but quite keen on jumping to
conclusions.
Just some ramblings of an infrequent poster.
Sridhar.
ps: This posting is not to be perceived as supporting TAMBRAS. Infact
the Brahmins are well off without TAMBRAS on the political front.
MF...@utcvm.utc.edu
>>All the popular hindu Gods are not even Brahmin, Rama Krishna etc.
> ---------------------------------------
>
> So in your book some 'Gods' are 'brahmin' and others are
> non-brahmin ? I know that some forms of God or practices
> of worship are popular in some communities or peoples,
> I didn't know that some 'Gods' were 'not even Brahmin' !! :-)
acknowledge only ONE God. Advaitees go to the extent of
claiming there is nothing else but God, not even creation.
Perhaps the original netter meant to say that in the forms
referred, viz. Ram, Krishna, etc. God came to earth
as Kshtriyas and not brahmins.
>
> If you have so much anger, imagine how much anger there must be for
> people who have suffered under machiavellian upper-casteism ?!
> Consider the issues in an honest manner, if I may request you !
> There were many great brahmins. There were many compassionate
> brahmins. There were many intelligent, constructive and
> resourceful brahmins who contributed enormously in many fields.
> But there were quite a few unfair, dishonest and divisive
brahmins. I know of no lynching that you
refer to perpetrated by brahmins. It is the likes of
EVR who are trying to create such an impression.
There have been countless people who contributed
to harmony among TN people. All EVR did was to
inflame the fires of bigotry.
> brahmins. The sad thing is because most of those who call themselves
> as brahmins clanishly upholding the divisive, racist views,
are found in all castes, sorry to say, even among the
so called "low castes." You will see more than their
share of progressives among brahmins.
> the vast majority of people lost irreplaceable evolutionary
> developments. The best thing is not to feel hung up about the
> past but to march ahead with constructive optimism and
> firmly eschewing divisive racist views. There is strong need for
> genuine understanding from all concerned.
by just a few individuals.
>
>>Balu
>
> anbudan -Selvaa
>
E.V.R. personifies anti-brahminism. This is why
you find this reaction from brahmins whenever EVR is touted
as the lightening rod of egalitarianism in TN.
Sumadhi Pandian
>>well people, all men are not bad in t.n- very true
>>say 90% is very good, 10% bad ones.
> 90% of lungis good? Good God! :-)
> Non-lungi
>>> jee god you are so sick- you need help man,you are in that 10% sick gang.>
man...@msus1.msus.edu
> I see that most of the postings in this thread talk about equality
> between sexes as their argument for abolishing the "ladies only" buses.
> Females in India are subject to harassment in all forms possible both
> in and out of their houses. I think it is fair that they are allowed a
> special place atleast in the buses if not at other locations.
>
Like I said earlier, among the bigger cities in India, Madras is a place
where women are subjected to the least harassment in buses. Compared with
Delhi where women don't have seperate seats for themselves, Madras has
virtually no harassment. As far as the equality issue is concerned, that
is clearly a smoke-screen. Even in the US, a few years ago there was a
controversy about a woman who used a restroom meant for men, but till now
most restrooms are marked as seperate for men and women. Equality between
sexes doesn't necessarily mean that women should be required to allow
themselves to be harassed by men. (judging by Delhi's experience)
Rammanohar
Daniel C. Gnanaprakasam
C. R. Selvakumar <selv...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
> I don't recall that Kathiravan said he is against TAMBRAS
> or TAMBRAS alone. I could very well have been mistaken.
> If I recall correectly he said he is against 'Brahminism'
> ( whatever he meant by this !). Has Kathiravan given
> outbursts against TAMBRAS organization ? ( I'm quite aware
> he had been against certain brahminical practices ).
> I'm writing this response to point out how some of you
> who are critical of Kathiravan are resorting to unfair
> distortion of his views.
>
I don't believe I have distorted Mr. Kathiravans's views.
I could have misunderstood it maybe. In any case the jist
of his article was this "evil nexus" between TAMBRAS and
the current govt, and the promotion of "Brahminism", and my
response addressed this. I assume that Brahminism means
Casteism.
>>
>>Are you saying that Brahmins are not allowed to form an organization?
>
> I don't think kathiravan or anybody else said this. Please
> correct me if I'm wrong.
>
I was just asking him a question.
>
> A couple of questions comments about these 5 lines above and the
> underlined part:
>
> [1] While you may be partially correct in guessing the reasons
> for starting the TAMBRAS, did you ask yourselves why
> the 'anti-brahmin' movements came into existence ?
> If you go back in history and see brahmins were treated
> with extreme respect until very recent times. Please
> ask the 'physical assaults' and numerous discriminations
> the vast majority of wealth-producing people had
> suffered under brahmin-and-upper-castes people. But for
> a person like Periyaar in the forefront of such an
> anti-brahmin movement, there could have been a great
> violent calamity. There should be some honest appraisal
> of circumstances. Can you tell me how many 'brahmins'
> were 'lynched, killed etc.' ? And ask same questions
> about the lower castes in the past in TN !
I have no problems with any kind of social awakenings
movements that address the caste issue. You rightfully
point out, that they are anti brahmin movements, and
not anti-uppper caste or anti caste practices movements.
Again correct me if I am wrong, traditionally it has been
other upper castes who lynched or harrased lower caste
communities. Brahmins provided the philosophical backing
to caste practices. True brahmins were not lynched,
but they were harassed and abused a lot as the only community
responsible for the evils of the caste system. Why were not
the other upper caste communities put through the same kind
of abuse, or was it that the Brahmins were easy to pick on?
If these social awakening movements believed that a violent
upheaval is required to address the caste problem,
how come the other upper caste culprits were left untouched.
>
> [2] What is your basis for believeing that TAMBRAS goal is
> not to promote Brahminism ? Are you implying that
> Brahminism is bad ? What do you mean by Brahminism ?
> Since you seem to speak with some knowledge about TAMBRAS,
> can you tell us what are the things it is promoting ?
>
Based on what some members told me is the purpose of
TAMBRAS. If they have some hidden agenda of promoting
casteism please provide me with details, I would be glad
to correct myself. Even the letter Mr. Kathir quoted,
( I'm recalling his old posts from memory, so feel free
to correct me if I am wrong. )
seemed to suggest that TAMBARS was busy plotting strategies
to protect their community's interests, which I don't
believe is the same as promoting casteism. This in light
of the fact, that every other upper caste community
has some organization or the other promoting and safe
guarding their interests.
I don't know what Brahminism is. Thats the term
which I have only heard being used widely by the Dravidian
parties. If it stands for Casteism, then I am against it.
In which case, I would rather use Casteism in my discussions,
because it reflects truly the practices of whole lot of Indian
communities. Choosing to call Casteism as Brahminism to me is implying
that only Brahmins alone were responsible for discrimination
of the lower caste communities, which I beleive is not the
case. Why didn't people choose to call Casteism as
Vellalarasim or Vanniarism or Nadarism? I know these are all
semantics, but albeit very clever in trying to put all the
blame on one community.
>>If some group of people constantly harrass and assault me and my family
>>in my neighborhood based on my caste to which I was born into, I would
>>definetely form an organization to protect myself.
>
> This is apparently the same reason for opposing
> some of the practices of brahminis by those who suffered
> very cruel social discriminations and very real
> physical abuses including lynching, killing and
> inflicting psychologically disempowering diseases.
No problems here. I don't think anybody is against any
organization that protects the interests and the safety of
the lower caste communities.
But just tell me where Brahmins alone
the only one who went around in these murdering rampage
of lower caste communities in TN as you seem to suggest?
> Even very recently Indian Vice President (!) Narayanan
> was ill-treated/insulted while receiving his degree ( a University
> First Ranker) which he did not receive in the convocation
> of his gratuating year ( to protest againt the discriminations
> he faced even after passing his degree with a first rank and
> the person responsible was a well known Tamil belonging to
> Iyer community and this strory apperared in Hindu !)
I don't know anything about this incident. Please post
the details if you have time.
> I kindly request, Kathiravan to resist making inflamatory
> postings against Brahmins. There are good and bad people in
> every community. If Kathiravan or others want to criticize
> certain aspects ( say clanish behavior of Brahmins or
> Nadars or some other community resorting to unfair methods,
> ior propagating discriminatory
> thoughts such as one group is 'born superior' etc. )
> they should do so in a manner which is conducive for
> considering the issues rather than fueling growth of
> ill-feeling against a group of people.
> On the same token, many nettors who criticize Kathiravan
> are quite silent on racial slurs ( 'chimps' etc.) and are
> very partisan in their 'discussions'.
> Those who attack Periyaar should consider the relevant
> history, facts, etc. in a balanced manner and discuss as
> sane adults. The contributions of Periyaar are among the
> most important ones in the context of TN but some of his
> thoughts and actions might be worthy of being criticized/debated.
> To imagine anyone who speaks well of Periyaar as
> an anti-brahmin or brahmin-basher is to miss an opportunity
> for constructive understanding, imo.
>
> anbudan -Selvaa
>
Agreed 100%.
--