Brahmin superiority
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <Coz4K...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> Agboh Charles (ag...@vub.ac.be) wrote:
|> : I agere fully with Sridhar,For one we are not here on SCI or
|> : SCT to discuss the caste system. As far as reservations goes
|> : it is only us Brahmins alone,who suffer . Incidentally
|> : though reservations is highly prevalent allover India
|> : It is Tamil Nadu which beats it all.A friend of mine
|> : Who was keen on Engineering could not get a seat in
|> : any college though she had got 93 % overall in pcmc
|> : from c.b.s.e and had to pay a lakh to finally get
|> : a engineering seat but another friend of mine
|> : who was not a brahmin goe t an engineering seat
|> : without paying a donation though she had got only
|> : 70%.
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^
|>
|> 70% is the bare minimum to get into an
|> engg institute by any means. 70% is a
|> qualifying minimum. The cut off for sc/st
|> is usually in the 78-80 range; BCs in
|> the 85-90 range; open competition 93+.
The bare minimum is ***NOT**** 70% for everyone.
It is 60% for those in 'forward communities' and probably (I am not sure
of BCs), backward communities.
55% for 'MBC'.
I am not aware of any such minimum criterion for SC/ST .
varadhan
|>
|> There are private institutes
|> like psg, sit that can admit 50% of students
|> in their management quota. But they have
|> to conform to the 70% minimum rule.
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
|>
|>
|>
|> : Let ius leave behind castsm for humanism.
|> : Sangeetha
--
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# 70% is the bare minimum to get into an
# engg institute by any means. 70% is a
# qualifying minimum. The cut off for sc/st
# is usually in the 78-80 range; BCs in
# the 85-90 range; open competition 93+.
Anban kathir, allow me to correct you, please. In thamizh naadu
engineering colleges, selection is based on both the final exam and an
entrance exam.
From the final exam with math(M), physics(P) and chemistry(C), the
score is obtained by the following formula:
M P+C
A = --- + -----
2 4
Out of a maximum of 200 that one could score, one has to score a
minimum of 120 which is 60% even to qualify. [Note: the above formula
is modified appropriately for CBSE or ISE etc. as the marks are
awarded out of 100 for each subject in these cases]
And then there is an entrance exam for 50 marks and let us say, a
student gets B.
The total (A+B) is taken and based upon this score and one's caste,
one gets a seat in the government controlled engg. colleges or the
government quota (50%) of the private engg. colleges.
Now, over the last 6 years that I have followed the admission scheme
(though fortunately I did not have to go through this bull shit) the
following is the approximate selection scheme.
There are 3 groups of colleges:
a) Anna university and AC tech
b) REC Trichy and other government colleges like
GCT, Coimbatore, etc. and govt. aided colleges
like PSG Tech.
c) self financing collges
We have mainly four kind of students: (note that MBC+OBC were known as
BC before the mandal commission implementation)
1) SC/ST (scheduled castes and scheduled tribes)
2) MBC (most backward castes)
3) OBC (other backward castes)
4) FC (forward castes)
A typical cut off for the last year was something like this.
cutoff
(a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% (assuming that there
is no other quota
for handicapped etc.)
I may be off by a little bit this way or that way. I can in fact post
the exact scores for the last school year if someone contests this and
finds that what I have given above is patently false and far off. I
am writing mainly from my memory. Now the way Open Category (OC) works
is as below. The selection is based on student by student basis. Take
a student X who has applied to group (a). (in the following, replace
`he' by `she' as you wish) His caste will not be seen first. His total
score (A+B) will be looked at. If he has 240+, he will be allotted a
seat from the open category. If on the other hand, he has less than
240, if he is FC, he is rejected. If he happens to be one of BC, if he
has 215+ atleast, he is let in else rejected and similarly for SC/ST.
# There are private institutes
# like psg, sit that can admit 50% of students
# in their management quota. But they have
# to conform to the 70% minimum rule.
As I said 60% is the minimum in TN. I am not sure how strictly this is
enforced. I have known people going to Karnataka (mainly Bangalore)
where the minimum is only 50%.
# anban
# kathir
--
------------------------
S.Badrinarayanan
Dept. of Mech. and Aero.
Cornell University
------------------------
Arasu Chellaiah
ba...@sofia.tn.cornell.edu (Badrinarayanan Seshadri) wrote:
deleted
> have mainly four kind of students: (note that MBC+OBC were known as
> BC before the mandal commission implementation)
>
>
The most backward castes were separated from other
backward castes in Thamizh Nadu a few years back (atleast four years).
However Mandal Commission report was implemented only within the
last couple of months. The first one to get the job under this
reservation system for the backward castes in the central Govt.jobs
was from Andhra Predesh. Thiru V.P Singh, former prime minister of
India, who fought for this implementation and in this strugle has
to lose his govt. personally garlanded him.
Frustrated by the delay tactics of the central govt.
thiru. V.P Singh had vowed previously that he will not
go to Delhi until the implementation of the Mandal commission
report.
anbudan,
arasu chellaiah
Srikant Sridevan
>|> : A typical cut off for the last year was something like this.
>|>
>|> : cutoff
>|> : (a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
>|> : SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
>|> : MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
>|> : OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% (assuming that there
>|> : is no other quota
>|> : for handicapped etc.)
The frightening thing is that the cut-off for CEG (sorta kinda maybe
comparable to IITM (saying 10008 mantrams to atone for this blasphemous
utterance) :) ) is 96%. So to get a seat in the field I am
currently in, it would probably mean a cut-off of say, 246-247? (ECE).
This means a 98.8% to get a seat in ECE. Far easier to crack the JEE
IMO.
Anyway, who would want to study in a college where the male students
chuck paper rockets in college culturals, at the woman students of
*their own* college (in particular, at any woman in general).
Just run-of-the-mill IITM snobbishness. :)
Srikant
--
--
Bierwissenschaftenstudent
e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
Agboh Charles
SCT to discuss the caste system. As far as reservations goes
it is only us Brahmins alone,who suffer . Incidentally
though reservations is highly prevalent allover India
It is Tamil Nadu which beats it all.A friend of mine
Who was keen on Engineering could not get a seat in
any college though she had got 93 % overall in pcmc
from c.b.s.e and had to pay a lakh to finally get
a engineering seat but another friend of mine
who was not a brahmin goe t an engineering seat
without paying a donation though she had got only
70%.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: Anban kathir (k...@doe.carleton.ca) wrote:
: Out of a maximum of 200 that one could score, one has to score a
: minimum of 120 which is 60% even to qualify. [Note: the above formula
^^^^^
Thanks for correcting me. I remembered 70% which
was the minimum when there were no entrance
exams. We had only interviews.
: A typical cut off for the last year was something like this.
: cutoff
: (a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
: SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
: MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
: OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% (assuming that there
: is no other quota
: for handicapped etc.)
The above statistics fails to explain
how somebody with 93% will be rejected
.
Maybe you can enlighten.
anban
kathir
: # in their management quota. But they have
Krishna Sivaramapuram
> Varathan. I applied to engg institutes in 1983, 11 years ago.
^^^^^^^^
kathir,
Please, can't you repeat this persons name, the way he had written. Why try
to write it in your style... I have been following your "piraminar",
"thoortharshan" etc... If those were bad this is too much...
>anban
> kathir
>
>: varadhan.
--
S S Krishna
Deptt. of Computer Science
Oregon State Univ, Corvallis, OR 97331
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: |> how somebody with 93% will be rejected
:
: It may not be transparent for people with biased eyes. So, here is the
: explanation ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Varathan. I applied to engg institutes in 1983, 11 years ago.
I wrote about whatever I knew [that 70 % minimum] about the
system at that time.
I did not apply for the quota system [97%].
I was just wondering how somebody with 93% could not get the seat.
esp with more institutes in TN offering engg program.
That is all. Do not interpolate and extrapolate things.
: 225/250 = 90%.
: I am sure u can find a person with 92.99% who got admission and who
: belonged to 'forward communities'. (probably that is where u are aiming
: at :) ).
Aim at what???
: But the overall scenario is this :
: People from the 'forward communities' have to get at least 230 to get
: into a 'respectable' engg. college. If u are talking about govt.
: colleges, they have to get 235 or above.
That explains.
: You also should note the fee structure :
: In govt. colleges, the fees is about 700 rs/year.
: In private colleges, the minimum amount is 6000 rs/year.
: I have personally seen people who have got admission in private
: colleges, but did not go due to financial constraints, even though
: they have got 93%.
The person had paid 1 lakh to secure admission. I wanted to
know if the cutoff has changed with opening of many engg colleges
and entrance exams.
Thanks
anban
kathir
: varadhan.
: p.s: the above relates to engg. colleges in TN.
:
: |> .
: |>
: |> Maybe you can enlighten.
: |>
: |>
: |> anban
: |> kathir
: |> : # in their management quota. But they have
: |> : # to conform to the 70% minimum rule.
: --
1111 1100 1010 0000 0000
In article <2pq085$l...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant Sridevan) writes:
>
>
>Anyway, who would want to study in a college where the male students
>chuck paper rockets in college culturals, at the woman students of
>*their own* college (in particular, at any woman in general).
That's bcos the CEG nerds don't know if a girl is from their own
college or not. In fact I would be surprise it they could
tell a girl from a boy in the first place ;-)
-Francis
>
>Just run-of-the-mill IITM snobbishness. :)
is there any other variety???
;-)
>
>Srikant
>--
>--
>
>Bierwissenschaftenstudent
>
>e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Brahmin superiority
Summary:
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In article <2pq085$l...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant Sridevan) writes:
>
>
>Anyway, who would want to study in a college where the male students
>chuck paper rockets in college culturals, at the woman students of
>*their own* college (in particular, at any woman in general).
That's bcos the CEG nerds don't know if a girl is from their own
college or not. In fact I would be surprise it they could
tell a girl from a boy in the first place ;-)
-Francis
>
>Just run-of-the-mill IITM snobbishness. :)
is there any other variety???
;-)
>
>Srikant
>--
>--
>
>Bierwissenschaftenstudent
>
>e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
--
----------------------------------------------------
email: fc...@duts.ccc.amdahl.com
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's
----------------------------------------------------
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: I agere fully with Sridhar,For one we are not here on SCI or
70% is the bare minimum to get into an
engg institute by any means. 70% is a
qualifying minimum. The cut off for sc/st
is usually in the 78-80 range; BCs in
the 85-90 range; open competition 93+.
There are private institutes
like psg, sit that can admit 50% of students
in their management quota. But they have
to conform to the 70% minimum rule.
anban
kathir
: Let ius leave behind castsm for humanism.
: Sangeetha
jaipr...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> : Anban kathir (k...@doe.carleton.ca) wrote:
> : A typical cut off for the last year was something like this.
>
> : cutoff
> : (a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
> : SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
> : MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
> : OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% (assuming that there
> : is no other quota
> : for handicapped etc.)
>
> The above statistics fails to explain
> how somebody with 93% will be rejected
> .
>
> Maybe you can enlighten.
93% is equivalent to 186/200 from the Board Exam part. In the entrance exam,
even if this candidate scores 50/50 his combined PCM and EE will be
236/250. Hence he/she will be summarily rejected since the cutoff is
usually 240+ as badri pointed out.
Therefore this candidate cannot hope to get into category (a)
before even giving his EE. If indeed he/she scores 50/50 then notice
that he/she will barely get into category (b) - usually second list.
Bad luck in the EE ( less than 49/50 !!) means curtains for any govt.
colleges !!
>
>
> anban
> kathir
> : # in their management quota. But they have
> : # to conform to the 70% minimum rule.
anbudan
jp
Srikant Sridevan
>In article <2pq085$l...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant
>Sridevan) writes:
>>
>>
>>Anyway, who would want to study in a college where the male students
>>chuck paper rockets in college culturals, at the woman students of
>>*their own* college (in particular, at any woman in general).
>
>That's bcos the CEG nerds don't know if a girl is from their own
>college or not. In fact I would be surprise it they could
>tell a girl from a boy in the first place ;-)
>
>
>-Francis
>
>>
>>Just run-of-the-mill IITM snobbishness. :)
>
>is there any other variety???
>
>
>;-)
Well Francis, I do hope you have the good fortune of not having any
co-workers from those so-called IITs at Bombay, Delhi and Wheresisplace.
Really does drag the name of the good alma mater into the mire. I demand
that the other "IIT"s, nay, they are nothing but pIITs, be closed down
forthwith.
(The other variety ;-) )
P. Ialamanna
to chettiars. Can someone tell me where I can find more info about
chettiars, about their history and subculture? Being a chettiar( please
no flames about castes,etc.) I'm also interested in meeting other chettiars
on the Internet. Thanx.
--
Thanx for the memories, MJ "Men will lie on their backs, talking about the
P. Ialamanna, aka Pman fall of man, and never make an effort to get up"
pa5...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu - Henry David Thoreau
A P Nagaraj
>
> 70% is the bare minimum to get into an
>engg institute by any means. 70% is a
>qualifying minimum. The cut off for sc/st
>is usually in the 78-80 range; BCs in
>the 85-90 range; open competition 93+.
>
> There are private institutes
>like psg, sit that can admit 50% of students
>in their management quota. But they have
>to conform to the 70% minimum rule.
>
> anban
> kathir
>
PSG and what is SIT, you mean CIT? both are not permitted
to allow, 50% quotas, because they are GOVT. funded and are
autonomous,
check your records before you make any statements like this!!
>
>
>: Let ius leave behind castsm for humanism.
>: Sangeetha
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
\\\\\\
8|@ @|8 An I for an I makes the world egocentric
| V | and thus spake Nagaraj.
Arun Kumar Natarajan
avanga vandha podhum !!
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <CozMD...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> Badrinarayanan Seshadri (ba...@sofia.tn.cornell.edu) wrote:
|> : Anban kathir (k...@doe.carleton.ca) wrote:
|>
|> : Out of a maximum of 200 that one could score, one has to score a
|> : minimum of 120 which is 60% even to qualify. [Note: the above formula
|> ^^^^^
|>
|> Thanks for correcting me. I remembered 70% which
|> was the minimum when there were no entrance
|> exams. We had only interviews.
|>
|>
|>
|> : A typical cut off for the last year was something like this.
|>
|> : cutoff
|> : (a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
|> : SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
|> : MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
|> : OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% (assuming that there
|> : is no other quota
|> : for handicapped etc.)
|>
|> The above statistics fails to explain
|> how somebody with 93% will be rejected
225/250 = 90%.
But again not everyone who manages to get into engg. colleges on the
'open quota' are not people from the so-called 'forward communities.
There are some self-financing colleges that not many people would
want to study. Those students with 225 etc.. will get admission in these
colleges. (Some of such colleges were closed down , i think..).
I am sure u can find a person with 92.99% who got admission and who
belonged to 'forward communities'. (probably that is where u are aiming
at :) ).
But the overall scenario is this :
People from the 'forward communities' have to get at least 230 to get
into a 'respectable' engg. college. If u are talking about govt.
colleges, they have to get 235 or above.
You also should note the fee structure :
In govt. colleges, the fees is about 700 rs/year.
In private colleges, the minimum amount is 6000 rs/year.
I have personally seen people who have got admission in private
colleges, but did not go due to financial constraints, even though
they have got 93%.
varadhan.
p.s: the above relates to engg. colleges in TN.
|> .
|>
|> Maybe you can enlighten.
|>
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
|> : # in their management quota. But they have
|> : # to conform to the 70% minimum rule.
--
Sridhar Venkataraman
| >|> : cutoff
| >|> : (a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
| >|> : SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
| >|> : MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
| >|> : OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% ...
Hmm.. When I applied in '86, the qualifying marks were 60% in each of
Math and Phy+Chem and 70% in the total. Has this changed recently?
| The frightening thing is that the cut-off for CEG (sorta kinda maybe
| comparable to IITM (saying 10008 mantrams to atone for this blasphemous
| utterance) :) ) is 96%. So to get a seat in the field I am
| currently in, it would probably mean a cut-off of say, 246-247? (ECE).
| This means a 98.8% to get a seat in ECE. Far easier to crack the JEE
| IMO.
Sorry Srikant, I forget where you did your 12th. But for the state
board folks, the entrance is a bit of a cakewalk except for the GK
(it is general knowledge :-) section. Getting 195 or above wasn't too
tough in my days either if you put in some effort to "mug" (not the
American slang!) the whole thing.
As for the IIT JEE, I might agree with you if I had cleared it. I had
a different priority though. Not trying to offer any excuses here.
Does anybody who made a changeover to the State Board during +2 feel
that the tamizh is too tough? I for one felt there was no other way
to clear tamizh except by "mug"ing the konar. Which left me in
disgust trying to learn something rather than having a love for it.
The key to promoting Tamizh must start in schools. Not by being an
armchair expert and criticising sanskrit here. Most of my friends who
made the changeover opted for Hindi or Sanskrit or had to suffer my
fate of scoring low in Tamizh.
Sridhar.
--
Sridhar Venkataraman ASU, Tempe, Arizona USA sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
<A HREF="http://enuxsa.eas.asu.edu:8080/">WWW server on enuxsa</A>
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <1994Apr29.1...@ccc.amdahl.com>, fc...@chennai.ccc.amdahl.com (1111 1100 1010 0000 0000) writes:
|>
|> In article <2pq085$l...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant Sridevan) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >Anyway, who would want to study in a college where the male students
|> >chuck paper rockets in college culturals, at the woman students of
|> >*their own* college (in particular, at any woman in general).
I would rather study in a college with females at whom one can
chuck paper rockets, rather than being in IITM, where u can throw
rockets only on the monkeys hanging from the trees..:):):):)
varadhan
|>
--
Srikant Sridevan
In article <2q16ic$o...@news.iastate.edu>, ch...@iastate.edu (
Thirumalai-Anand) writes:
>
>|> In article <2pq085$l...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant
>Sridevan) writes:
>|> >
>|> >
>|> >Anyway, who would want to study in a college where the male
>students
>|> >chuck paper rockets in college culturals, at the woman students of
>|> >*their own* college (in particular, at any woman in general).
>
> I would rather study in a college with females at whom one can
>chuck paper rockets, rather than being in IITM, where u can throw
>rockets only on the monkeys hanging from the trees..:):):):)
That the monkeys are better looking will be attested to, by anyone who's
been in CEG. ;-)
Just kidding ladies. Can't let any Tom, Dick and Chari get away with
cheap shots at the old alma mater. :)
Vijay Fafat
>> I would rather study in a college with females at whom one can
>>chuck paper rockets, rather than being in IITM, where u can throw
>>rockets only on the monkeys hanging from the trees..:):):):)
Hmm..new meaning to "hanging out". Kind of gives you the line which
an IITMian (like our SSD here :) ) might use as an opening, "How
about hanging out together?" and the simian response, if the woman
was blind enough to say yes, "your tree or mine?" It also clarifies the
nature of the question asked to first year monkeys, "Which branch are
you in?"
FFT
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Male jogger to female jogger: "Your pace or mine?"
--- anon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Srikant Sridevan
In article <1994May1.2...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
pvf...@gsbphd.uchicago.edu (Vijay Fafat) writes:
>In article <2q17gf$j...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu> s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant
>Sridevan) writes:
>>> I would rather study in a college with females at whom one
>can
>>>chuck paper rockets, rather than being in IITM, where u can throw
>>>rockets only on the monkeys hanging from the trees..:):):):)
>
> Hmm..new meaning to "hanging out". Kind of gives you the line which
> an IITMian (like our SSD here :) ) might use as an opening, "How
> about hanging out together?" and the simian response, if the woman
> was blind enough to say yes, "your tree or mine?" It also clarifies
>the
> nature of the question asked to first year monkeys, "Which branch are
> you in?"
>
> FFT
Arrey FFT,
If you must edit posts, at least do so such that people who read this
thread for the first time do not get the impression that I made the
statements you have quoted above your response. :)
Vijay Fafat
>>>>chuck paper rockets, rather than being in IITM, where u can throw
>>>>rockets only on the monkeys hanging from the trees..:):):):)
>If you must edit posts, at least do so such that people who read this
>statements you have quoted above your response. :)
You mean like this? I didn't know you threw rockets at female monkeys
as an opening stance *tongue firmly in cheek*
ok, ok, now don't go and commit the heinous crime of editing my
post and attributing things to me I've not said *tongue still in
place*
*grin*
Krishna Sivaramapuram
>s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant Sridevan) writes:
>
>| >|> : cutoff
>| >|> : (a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
>| >|> : SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
>| >|> : MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
>| >|> : OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% ...
>
>Hmm.. When I applied in '86, the qualifying marks were 60% in each of
>Math and Phy+Chem and 70% in the total. Has this changed recently?
Nope!!! I applied for DOTE and CEG (Open Category) in '85 and my total score
was 215/250 which is 86% and I had a waiting list of 615 or something in
DOTE... and CEG in that year closed at 243/250 or something like that.....
So, I guess what srikanth sridevan wrote was correct, even in '85.
krish
Sridhar Venkataraman
siv...@jasper.CS.ORST.EDU (Krishna Sivaramapuram) writes:
| sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman) writes:
| >s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant Sridevan) writes:
| >
| >| >|> : cutoff
| >| >|> : (a) (b) (c) percentage of seats
| >| >|> : SC/ST : 180+ 160+ 140+ 18%
| >| >|> : MBC+OBC : 225+ 210+ 200+ 50%
| >| >|> : OC : 240+ 235+ 225+ 32% ...
| >
| >Hmm.. When I applied in '86, the qualifying marks were 60% in each of
| >Math and Phy+Chem and 70% in the total. Has this changed recently?
|
| Nope!!! I applied for DOTE and CEG (Open Category) in '85 and my total score
| was 215/250 which is 86% and I had a waiting list of 615 or something in
| DOTE... and CEG in that year closed at 243/250 or something like that.....
| So, I guess what srikanth sridevan wrote was correct, even in '85.
That wasn't Srikant's quote (the cutoff for categories). It was
Badri's (if I am not mistaken). I intended to add something to make
sure I don't confuse by mentioning "qualifying" with the "cutoff" marks
mentioned in the quote but I forgot.
"Qualifying" is for appearing in the entrance exam while "cutoff" is
for getting admitted. Hope that is clear. "Qualifying" doesn't
really doesn't matter for the OC category.
1111 1100 1010 0000 0000
>Reply-To: s...@eos.ncsu.edu (Srikant Sridevan)
>NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.psrc.ncsu.edu
>Originator: s...@orion.psrc.ncsu.edu
>
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>That the monkeys are better looking will be attested to, by anyone who's
>been in CEG. ;-)
Srikant,
I have to disagree, they are definitely better looking than the monkeys
in IITM. [i don't know about other IITS] ;-)
Don't tell me that IITM guys are soooo kaanjified that they find their
campus monkeys attractive ;-)
>
>Just kidding ladies. Can't let any Tom, Dick and Chari get away with
>cheap shots at the old alma mater. :)
ditto ;-)
>
>Srikant
>--
>--
>
>Bierwissenschaftenstudent
>
>e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
1111 1100 1010 0000 0000
>
[deleted]
>
>Well Francis, I do hope you have the good fortune of not having any
>co-workers from those so-called IITs at Bombay, Delhi and Wheresisplace.
>Really does drag the name of the good alma mater into the mire. I demand
>that the other "IIT"s, nay, they are nothing but pIITs, be closed down
pHindus, pSeculars, pLangots and now pIITs, what is this world coming to?
;-)
-Francis
>
>Srikant
>--
>--
>
>Bierwissenschaftenstudent
>
>e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
Sridhar Venkataraman
| pHindus, pSeculars, pLangots and now pIITs, what is this world coming to?
Hold your breath. The next in line is pTamils.
Sridhar.
Srikant Sridevan
In article <1994May3.0...@ccc.amdahl.com>,
fc...@chennai.ccc.amdahl.com (1111 1100 1010 0000 0000) writes:
>>That the monkeys are better looking will be attested to, by anyone who's
>>been in CEG. ;-)
>
>Srikant,
>
>I have to disagree, they are definitely better looking than the monkeys
>in IITM. [i don't know about other IITS] ;-)
>
>Don't tell me that IITM guys are soooo kaanjified that they find their
>campus monkeys attractive ;-)
Not at all. You will notice the use of the relative in my comparison.
Better looking. As opposed to good looking. Of course the IITM monkeys
are grotesque looking. Where this leaves the CEG women is of course up
to you to decide. ;-)
>>Just kidding ladies. Can't let any Tom, Dick and Chari get away with
>>cheap shots at the old alma mater. :)
>
>ditto ;-)
This is all in fun. I mean no insult to anyone. So please take it suchly.
Really, the "arbit" behaviour of the CEG guys within their campus is
very offputting. Don't you agree?
Sridhar Venkataraman
| Sridhar Venkataraman <sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
| >fc...@chennai.ccc.amdahl.com (1111 1100 1010 0000 0000) writes:
| >
| >
| >Hold your breath. The next in line is pTamils.
|
| Please advise which is correct :-)
Feel free to use it if it pleases you. The way some of the
individuals on this group have been writing lately, I wouldn't really
be surprised if I get labelled that way.
The use of smileys is becoming more rsc-like around here.
Sridhar.
C. R. Selvakumar
Sridhar, I found a 'blank line' next in line or just your name :-)
Please advise which is correct :-)
anbudan -Selvaa
Satish Subramanian
>>fc...@chennai.ccc.amdahl.com (1111 1100 1010 0000 0000) writes:
>>> pHindus, pSeculars, pLangots and now pIITs, what is this world coming to?
>>
>>Hold your breath. The next in line is pTamils.
>>Sridhar.
> Sridhar, I found a 'blank line' next in line or just your name :-)
> Please advise which is correct :-)
Are you also still holding ur breath? I guess, you can relax
now..
> anbudan -Selvaa
--
satish
Vijay Fafat
>The use of smileys is becoming more rsc-like around here.
:)))))))))) <------- Mustafa brand.
dxp...@tesla.njit.edu
> In article <Cp0zE...@cunews.carleton.ca> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>> Varathan. I applied to engg institutes in 1983, 11 years ago.
> Please, can't you repeat this persons name, the way he had written. Why try
> to write it in your style... I have been following your "piraminar",
> "thoortharshan" etc... If those were bad this is too much...
>>: varadhan.
> S S Krishna
Was mispelling Varadhan's name really too much. I can't remember anyone
spelling my name the same way I do. May be you don't care about me!!
If this comes from Varadhan I can understand.
Prabaharan
1111 1100 1010 0000 0000
Sridhar,
This is old hat. Anban Kathir has already classified
sO, RV, Jeya as pTamils ;-)
-Francis
>
>Sridhar.
1111 1100 1010 0000 0000
>
>In article <1994May3.0...@ccc.amdahl.com>,
>fc...@chennai.ccc.amdahl.com (1111 1100 1010 0000 0000) writes:
>
>>>That the monkeys are better looking will be attested to, by anyone who's
>>>been in CEG. ;-)
>>
>>Srikant,
>>
>>I have to disagree, they are definitely better looking than the monkeys
>>in IITM. [i don't know about other IITS] ;-)
>>
>>Don't tell me that IITM guys are soooo kaanjified that they find their
>>campus monkeys attractive ;-)
>
>Not at all. You will notice the use of the relative in my comparison.
>Better looking. As opposed to good looking. Of course the IITM monkeys
>are grotesque looking. Where this leaves the CEG women is of course up
>to you to decide. ;-)
Srikant, You missed my vanja-pugazhci-ani (or its opposite),(see the
underlined sentence). I wasn't doing too great a favour to the
CEG ladies in that comment. ;-)
>
[deleted]
>
>This is all in fun. I mean no insult to anyone. So please take it suchly.
I better stop this thread before the CEG female two offices down
the corridor decides to come to my office and whack me over the
head ;-)
>
>Really, the "arbit" behaviour of the CEG guys within their campus is
>very offputting. Don't you agree?
what kind of arbit behaviour are we talking about here ???
-Francis
>
>Srikant
>--
>--
>
>Bierwissenschaftenstudent
>
>e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
Krishna Sivaramapuram
If I had seen anyone purposefully doing a spelling change like what
kathir does, then I will let him know... If you are so much offended by
someone mis-spelling your name, why don't you tell him yourself.... Why do you
want some other person to do that for you.... Mr. varadhan didn't ask me to...
I just found kathir way of writing proper nouns irritating..... I know
he won't change at all. But still I just wanted to let him know what I
think about his way of mis-spelling things PURPOSEFULLY.... He doesn't do
it, when the proper noun is not from hindi or if the proper noun is not
a name of a person in a particular caste.... If you have observed his writings
you will get it.... So chill out, will you!!
Shiva Shivakumar
>In article <Cp0zE...@cunews.carleton.ca> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>> Varathan. I applied to engg institutes in 1983, 11 years ago.
>
>kathir,
>
>Please, can't you repeat this persons name, the way he had written. Why try
>to write it in your style... I have been following your "piraminar",
>"thoortharshan" etc... If those were bad this is too much...
>
>> kathir
>>
>>: varadhan.
>--
>S S Krishna
>
>Deptt. of Computer Science
>Oregon State Univ, Corvallis, OR 97331
I am assuming, of course, you would say the same thing when my name (which
INVARIABLY does in our local Indian Association and among quite a few Indians)
gets modified to Jagdish Shivkumar !
regards,
Jagadisan Shivakumar
PS : The convention of North being above South in a map, perhaps is the reason
why things always flow in one direction !!!
Krishna Sivaramapuram
<STUFF DELETED>
>>
>>Please, can't you repeat this persons name, the way he had written. Why try
>>to write it in your style... I have been following your "piraminar",
>>"thoortharshan" etc... If those were bad this is too much...
>>
>>>anban
>>> kathir
>>>
>>>: varadhan.
>
>I am assuming, of course, you would say the same thing when my name (which
>INVARIABLY does in our local Indian Association and among quite a few Indians)
>gets modified to Jagdish Shivkumar !
Sure. You can count on that. Most of the americans who had to read my name
(due to the job they were in, like bank clerks...) had tried to pronounce
my name (Sivaramapuram Subramanyam Krishna) perfectly. When they can do it,
why can't we and that too when we know that some word is pronounced or written
in a totally different way. Why do we have to impose a different kind of
pronounciation when it is not the proper one? And that too the people
who do this on a regular basis, talk about hindi imposition in TN. If we
are talking about about imperfections in others we should take care to
avoid those things, ourselves.
>regards,
>Jagadisan Shivakumar
>
>PS : The convention of North being above South in a map, perhaps is the reason
>why things always flow in one direction !!!
krish
Sridhar Venkataraman
| [...] Most of the americans who had to read my name
| (due to the job they were in, like bank clerks...) had tried to pronounce
| my name (Sivaramapuram Subramanyam Krishna) perfectly. When they can do it,
| why can't we and that too when we know that some word is pronounced or written
| in a totally different way. Why do we have to impose a different kind of
| pronounciation when it is not the proper one? And that too the people
| who do this on a regular basis, talk about hindi imposition in TN. If we
| are talking about about imperfections in others we should take care to
| avoid those things, ourselves.
Kritt er.. Krish,
I think there is a misspelling virus spreading fast in and around Waterloo.
How else could you explain Gayathri consistently spelt as Gayathiri (which
makes little sense either pronounced in Tamil or English)? Apologies to GK
for bringing her name into this discussion!
So let varadhan, cho etc. need not take any offence at spellings
coming out of Waterloo. I am holding my breath to see my
name misspelt in some way since Sri isn't Tamizh.
Sridhar.
Prabhu Balaraman
going around on SCT. I'd like to assert that wanton misspelling is akin
to uttering racial slurs. If someone wants their name spelt in a particular
manner it simply HAS to be! There can be no other way..
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: siv...@jasper.CS.ORST.EDU (Krishna Sivaramapuram) writes:
: So let varadhan, cho etc. need not take any offence at spellings
: coming out of Waterloo. I am holding my breath to see my
: name misspelt in some way since Sri isn't Tamizh.
Sri is equal to siRi as in siRilaNGkaa.
ulagath thamizhar magazine has a good standard
of thamizh and they try to use thamizh characters
to represent non-thamizh names.
sharma would be sarmaa. cool.
Cho will be sO.
Just an info.
anban
kathir
: Sridhar.
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# Sri is equal to siRi as in siRilaNGkaa.
# ulagath thamizhar magazine has a good standard
# of thamizh and they try to use thamizh characters
# to represent non-thamizh names.
err... are you using thamizh characters to represent the
names in the terminal?
# sharma would be sarmaa. cool.
# Cho will be sO.
So (and not sO) according to some other standards,
kathiravan = katluvaramgal(tm) and you will not
I presume, be peeved about it at all, is that so
anban katluvaramgal?
# Just an info.
Thanks. Could you tell us, why on earth we should give a damn
to ulagath thamizhar magazine? And pray tell me why whould I
let my name be governed by some "ulagath thamizhar magazine?"
It is exactly how I spell and it would be nice if others who
want to use my name to refer to me follow the same spelling.
What you do with your name and the spelling of it is of no
concern to me, but atleast what you do with my name should be
of some concern to me, right? Or should that be the concern of
ulagath thamizhar magazine?
[me, mine, my etc. in the above are generic.]
--Badri.
# anban
# kathir
--
--------------------------------------------------
S.Badrinarayanan
Graduate Student
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
Cornell University
--------------------------------------------------
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: Anban kathir (k...@doe.carleton.ca) wrote:
: # Sri is equal to siRi as in siRilaNGkaa.
: # ulagath thamizhar magazine has a good standard
: # of thamizh and they try to use thamizh characters
: # to represent non-thamizh names.
: err... are you using thamizh characters to represent the
: names in the terminal?
No. I was telling about the convention
used in a international thamizh news paper. They write
all non-tamil names in tamil Ex. Vijayatunga is
simply \bt viyEtungaa \et to avoid extra
characters.
: # sharma would be sarmaa. cool.
: # Cho will be sO.
: So (and not sO) according to some other standards,
: kathiravan = katluvaramgal(tm) and you will not
: I presume, be peeved about it at all, is that so
: anban katluvaramgal?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not speak with the class of
people who distort names. resort to
name calling. Didn't you notice that I
chose to ignore that \bt naNYchu
manithar \et. I'd only hoped you'd not
stoop to that category of men.:-(
I did not call you any name.
: # Just an info.
Cool off Badri. I am not asking you to raise
your blood pressure on ulagath thamizhar magazine.
If you are so worried about Cho being spelt sO
I cannot help it. One can get irritated by 'cho' as much you
are by 'sO'.
: Thanks. Could you tell us, why on earth we should give a damn
: to ulagath thamizhar magazine? And pray tell me why whould I
Badri! I am not asking you get all worked up on
a Y magazine. Read above.
Your name is governed by you. Nobody wants to
distort your name. If I had done that to your
name I apologize.
I hope you do not stoop to cheap name
calling as you have done ^^^^^^^^^^^^.
I was talking about
a magazine using tamil characters to represent
non-tamil words. Our friend dhushiyanthan
writes his name \bt thusiyanthan \et and I find
it cool. I do not distort your name or your
dad's name. It is not my intention.
If it is a personality like Paarathi or Periyaar
I choose
my way and if one is so worried he/she needs some
help from a medical doctor.
anban
kathir
: let my name be governed by some "ulagath thamizhar magazine?"
Vijay Fafat
Prabu Ballraman has valid point.
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# Badrinarayanan Seshadri (ba...@sofia.mae.cornell.edu) wrote:
# : Anban kathir (k...@doe.carleton.ca) wrote:
# : So (and not sO) according to some other standards,
# : kathiravan = katluvaramgal(tm) and you will not
# : I presume, be peeved about it at all, is that so
# : anban katluvaramgal?
# ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# I'd only hoped you'd not
# stoop to that category of men.:-(
# I did not call you any name.
# I hope you do not stoop to cheap name
# calling as you have done ^^^^^^^^^^^^.
See kathir, I clearly mentioned at the end of my post that I wasn't
talking about myself. You have not distorted my name (thank god) but
the whole point was that when you want to write somebody's name
(especially people on the net) you should stick to the way they spell
their names. So I mentioned the name "katluvaramgal". And that
immediately generated this response from you. So what do you
understand from this? That people infact can get angry if you do not
spell their names correctly. Though I do not even know what the
meaning of "katluvaramgal" is, I understand that YOU consider it
derogatory. I will not use that against YOU. Similarly you should not
use spellings which may irk people. You can very well use `sO' for
`cho' because ulagath thamizhar magazine did so. You can very well use
paarathi or parattaith thalai for some dead person. It will simply be
assumed that you are doing so out of extreme hatred and disrespect
towards those persons. But when it comes to net.personalities, it is a
simple courtesy on our part to spell their names the way they
do. Because they can very well take you to task as to why you are
distorting their spellings.
# If you are so worried about Cho being spelt sO
# I cannot help it. One can get irritated by 'cho' as much you
# are by 'sO'.
Excuse me..... Are you irritated by the way I spell my name "badri"?
But I have been spelling it that way as my father had taught me....
If Cho Ramaswamy spells his name as cho and not sO, I wonder why it
should irritate you. Supposing your advisor's name is say `Peter',
will you spell it as `pEthuru' because that is the way ulagath
thamizhar magazine spells it? Please do not keep on saying that you
can not help it. You can certainly help it by spelling it the correct
way -- which is the way those persons themselves spell it. You can do
so atleast while writing it in English. Do as you wish when you write
it in thamizh characters - you just can't do anything there because of
the inability of thamizh script.
Now think of it anban kathir. Aren't you angry that thanjai is spelled
as tanjore, thiru allikkENi as triplicane, naagaip pattiNam as
negapattam etc.? But at the same time, are you angry that english is
pronounced and written as `aangilam', samskrith as samaskiritham (or
worse still vadamozhi -- the way northies in general call every
southerner as madrasi) or brahmin as piraamaNar? Of course not.
Because you do not give a damn about others. You are worried only
about you, yourself and what you perceive as your group. You just
don't respect others. If you do not know other languages and do not
know how to pronounce certain sounds, then it is OK. But what you do
is blatant misspelling of other's names -- over and above that
ridiculous supporting arguments like ulgath thamizhar magazine spells
it that way and they have standards!
When khambambatti can become khambatti, why not kathiravan into
katluvaramgal? Whatever may be your fight with others, when you do not
even take care to spell and pronounce other's names correctly, you are
simply being rude. When this is pointed out mildly, you go onto show
ulagath thamizhar magazine! When I mention "katluvaramgal", then you
ask me not to call you names. If I have to tell you that by not
spelling other's names the way they spell, you are guilty of comitting
the same crime that you accuse me of, would you change your ways? Or
would you still go by ulagath thamizhar magazine?
# Cool off Badri. I am not asking you to raise
# your blood pressure on ulagath thamizhar magazine.
# Badri! I am not asking you get all worked up on
# a Y magazine. Read above.
Let me tell you this kathir. I have no intention of calling you any
names. I have never felt that I have any need to call anyone names in
this forum. And I have never done that. My difference of opinions with
others has never come to any fist fight in SCT. Neither is my blood
pressure something to be worried about. I was simply making a point
and was hoping that you will understand what I meant. Probably that
was a mistake.
Once again I would like to point out that, you did not misspell my
name but intentionally do so with respect to quite a few names. You
can certainly avoid it but you do not want to avoid it due to a
certain "blind love" to mother thamizh? (while we are at it, tell me
how ulagath thamizhar magazine spells thamizh... is it tamil?)
Let me request you yet again. Be courteous to your net.friends and
net.foes and spell their names the way they spell. Thanks.
--badri.
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# In article <2qj1p6$k...@news.doit.wisc.edu>
# bala...@cae.wisc.edu (Prabhu Balaraman) writes:
# > ..as Sridhar Venkataraman pointed out there seems to be misspelling bug
# > going around on SCT. I'd like to assert that wanton misspelling is akin
# > to uttering racial slurs. If someone wants their name spelt in a
# > particular
# > manner it simply HAS to be! There can be no other way..
# Prabu Ballraman has valid point.
*anban kathir mode on*
pirapu palaraaman, aLandhu pEsu saami.
visay paapat, neeyum maruvaathiyaa
nadandhukka, puriyuthaa?
ulagath thamizhar magazine vaazhga!
--paththiri
*mode off*
Frankly, I have felt the way thamizh lovers distorting names extremely
offensive. In printing the other language names in thamizh , naturally
one would find that it is impossible to get the correct
pronounciation. But atleast those who know English and write in
English can use the correct spelling, right?
Prabhu Balaraman
..scumbag! Looking to fish some more?!
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <CpI2p...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> Badrinarayanan Seshadri (ba...@sofia.mae.cornell.edu) wrote:
|> : Anban kathir (k...@doe.carleton.ca) wrote:
> stuff deleted>
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>
|> I do not speak with the class of
|> people who distort names. resort to
|> name calling. Didn't you notice that I
|> chose to ignore that \bt naNYchu
|> manithar \et. I'd only hoped you'd not
|> stoop to that category of men.:-(
|> I did not call you any name.
|>
|> : # Just an info.
|>
< stuff deleted>
|> distort your name. If I had done that to your
|> name I apologize.
|> I hope you do not stoop to cheap name
|> calling as you have done ^^^^^^^^^^^^.
|>
BOOHOO!! BOOHOO!!!
name calling.. conspiracy....
for others info :
kathir's dictionary
name-calling = arguments for which kathir has no answer
Varadhan
--
Vijay Fafat
>> Prabu Ballraman has valid point.
>
> ..scumbag! Looking to fish some more?!
wanton misspelling of my name! You rotten, racial slur on your own
name!
MF...@utcvm.utc.edu
Sridhar Venkataraman
| Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
|
| : So let varadhan, cho etc. need not take any offence at spellings
| : coming out of Waterloo. I am holding my breath to see my
| : name misspelt in some way since Sri isn't Tamizh.
|
| Sri is equal to siRi as in siRilaNGkaa.
| ulagath thamizhar magazine has a good standard
| of thamizh and they try to use thamizh characters
| to represent non-thamizh names.
Imagine the cleansing that is likely to be done if some politician
gets a clue from kathir. Ofcourse the bracketed items are
alternatives for places but I don't know how many use it.
Srirangam (Thiruvarangam)
SriperumbudUr (Thirupperumbudur)
My guesses:
HoganEkkal (?oganEkkal)
Luz (lach)
Srinivasan (Thirunivachan)
Krishnan (Krittinan or Krichnan)
Shahjahan (chacha?an)
Francis (Francich)
Srikant (Thirukanth)
Meenakshi (Meenatchi)
| sharma would be sarmaa. cool.
| Cho will be sO.
|
| Just an info.
Oh sure. Thanks. Now I know why if I am called Siridhar or Thiruthar
(or thirudar - i can get respect this way!). :-)
kathir, why don't you take your own medicine and clean up your own
house before imposing it on others?
Sridhar.
ps: If education by caste representation gets justification from a
member of the 'human' caste, I have no interest in continuing the
argument either. I am not surprised by the justification either.
MF...@utcvm.utc.edu
sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman) writes:
>
>k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>| Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
>|
>| : So let varadhan, cho etc. need not take any offence at spellings
>| : coming out of Waterloo. I am holding my breath to see my
>| : name misspelt in some way since Sri isn't Tamizh.
>|
>| Sri is equal to siRi as in siRilaNGkaa.
>| ulagath thamizhar magazine has a good standard
>| of thamizh and they try to use thamizh characters
>| to represent non-thamizh names.
>
>
>(or thirudar - i can get respect this way!). :-)
>
>kathir, why don't you take your own medicine and clean up your own
>house before imposing it on others?
>
>Sridhar.
>
disregard of the wishes of the affected party.
NamAzhvaar uses \bt sireetharan \et for Sridharan in the following
pasuram from Thiru Vaaymozhi (1-5-6)
\bt
vinaiyEn vinaitheer marunNthaanaay viNNOr thalaivaa kEsavaa
manaisEraayar kulamuthalE maamaayanE maathavaa
sinaiyEy thazhaiya maraamarangaL EzhumeYthaay sireetharaa
inaiyaay inaiyapeyarinaay enRu naivanadiyEnE
\et
I looked this up in the following two publications and both have
spelt Sridhar in Tamizh as stated above.
1. The Little Flower company
2. Visishtadvaita Pracharini Sabha
There are many names in TN like Sridhar, Seshadri, Shanmugam,
Subramanian, and Karunanidhi, to name just a few, that cannot be
written faithfully using only the so called pure Tamizh letters.
Many new letters were added to Tamizh, perhaps after the
Azhvaar's time, like sri, sh, Sa, ksha, ja etc. The DK/DMK/ADMK
types don't like this. No letters were added for sounds like ba and
dha, to my knowledge. This is a major headache when it comes to
transliterating Sanskirt verses in Tamizh. There are still many
perfectly Tamizh people left in this world who care about this.
In any case, if you want to write one of these names in English, I
don't see why you have to first write it in Tamizh, using only the so
called pure Tamizh letters that sometimes corrupts the
pronunciation, and then transliterate it into English. Take for instance the
much maligned name "Sridhar!" When written directly in English we don't
loose its proper pronunciation. But if we have to traverse through the so
called pure Tamizh letters, we end up with sireethar. We not only
loose the pronunciation, but also the beautiful meaning behind the
name. There is nothing "cool" about that!!
P. Dileepan
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
: | Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
: Sridhar.
: ps: If education by caste representation gets justification from a
: member of the 'human' caste, I have no interest in continuing the
: argument either. I am not surprised by the justification either.
naan ungkaLai ippadi thaan ezhutha vENdum enRu
sollavillai. Thanks for making it look political.
thamizhil uLLa ezhuthukaLaik koNdE ellaap peyarkaLaiyum
thamizhil ezhuthalaam..
See my reply to Badri.
anban
kathir
Srini Pichumani
totally clear how the word "shrI" came to be an honorific.
From Vedic times the term has referred to prosperity/
well-being/wealth etc. But its usage as an honorific comes
much later.
Prof.Madhav Deshpande, in a seminar at U of M, referred to
a bilingual coin available from the Satakarani era - early
ADs - as one of the earliest evidences of such an usage.
On one side, the coin has an inscription in Prakrit that goes
like
siri satakarNi ... jAtO vashiShtaputra ...
and on the other side, the coin has a Tamil inscription that
reads
tiru satakarNi ... aracan magan vasiShtaputra
(sorry for the errors/omissions - I am quoting this from memory)
At that time, Prof.Deshpande was trying to understand if the
Sanskrit usage was inspired by the corresponding Tamil usage
or the other way around. He still has not been able to prove
it one way or other conclusively.
-Srini.
Srikant Sridevan
In article <1994050813...@homecheese.eas.asu.edu>,
sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman) writes:
>So let varadhan, cho etc. need not take any offence at spellings
>coming out of Waterloo. I am holding my breath to see my
>name misspelt in some way since Sri isn't Tamizh.
>
>Sridhar.
>
Thirudhar,
Please breathe. ElSe you cAn't seE the Suns rOmping hoMe. Off to see
PaaRKKley against OlAchuvaAn...
Thirukant.
p.s. same applies to Pathri of Kaarnal.
Sundhar Soma
>Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
>: k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>: | Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Sridhar.
>
>: ps: If education by caste representation gets justification from a
>: member of the 'human' caste, I have no interest in continuing the
>: argument either. I am not surprised by the justification either.
>
>
> naan ungkaLai ippadi thaan ezhutha vENdum enRu
>sollavillai. Thanks for making it look political.
>thamizhil uLLa ezhuthukaLaik koNdE ellaap peyarkaLaiyum
>thamizhil ezhuthalaam..
On one hand there is interest in coining new
tamil words and making it more popular, and on the
other hand we see this purposeful removal of existing
*tamil* alphabets like "ha, sha, ja" etcetera.
Could someone be kind enough to explain the reason
for avoiding some "sounds" in tamil language. Is this
one other way of claiming the ancient superiority of
pre-sanskritic tamil or is it some other trivial
political exercise? Whatever it is, to me it seems that
the one which will be affected the most is my mother tongue...
As someone said....
pazhayaNa kazhithaLum
puthiyaNa pughuthaLum
vazhiyaNa vaghuthalAnE....
I think almost all the major magazines (weekly,monthlyetc..)
do have ha,sha, ja etcetera...
And I think in mid-eighties the way of writing "nai, lai"
etc was equated to the way of writing "kai, thai..." and is
pretty well accepted today. So changes are not new or
difficult...for the better.
> See my reply to Badri.
>
>anban
>kathir
Somasundhar
PS: Try equating *JappAniyan* as *sappAniyan* to a Japanese
he's subscribe to the uLagath thamizhar magazine *at once*. ;)
Sridhar Venkataraman
| naan ungkaLai ippadi thaan ezhutha vENdum enRu
| sollavillai. Thanks for making it look political.
| thamizhil uLLa ezhuthukaLaik koNdE ellaap peyarkaLaiyum
| thamizhil ezhuthalaam..
| See my reply to Badri.
ennai neengkal 'sridhar' endruthaan ezhutha vendumenru koorinen.
thangal 'krishamurthi' endra peyarai mattrikoLamal irundathu
enakku viyappaga irunthathu. athanaal thaan aviyappai 'clean up your
house' endra muraiyil kurippitten.
thaangkal tamizhai vaiththu enna viLayuduveerkaLo enakku oru
prachnaiyum illai. ach cheyal ennodu kurukkittal thaangkal seivathu
sariyalla.
You can write all you want in pure tamil letters. As someone (sorry
forgot who!) remarked, you can't produce the same sounds as the
original letters of non-tamizh origin.
Sridhar.
ps: Please excuse transliteration errors.
MF...@utcvm.utc.edu
k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>
>Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
>: k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>: | Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
>
>: Sridhar.
>
>: ps: If education by caste representation gets justification from a
>: member of the 'human' caste, I have no interest in continuing the
>: argument either. I am not surprised by the justification either.
>
>
> naan ungkaLai ippadi thaan ezhutha vENdum enRu
>sollavillai. Thanks for making it look political.
>thamizhil uLLa ezhuthukaLaik koNdE ellaap peyarkaLaiyum
>thamizhil ezhuthalaam..
object to letters like sri, ksha, sha, Sa, etc. as
"thamizhil uLLa ezhuththukkaL." If this premise is correct
go ahead and show me how to write the following names
in Tamizh, without any corruption in pronunciation.
Sridharan, Seshadri, Krishnan, Lakshmi
P. Dileepan
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: In article <CpJK5...@cunews.carleton.ca>
: k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
:
: >
: > naan ungkaLai ippadi thaan ezhutha vENdum enRu
: >sollavillai. Thanks for making it look political.
: >thamizhil uLLa ezhuthukaLaik koNdE ellaap peyarkaLaiyum
: >thamizhil ezhuthalaam..
:
:
: No; I disagree! From your past postings I think you will
Surmise.
: object to letters like sri, ksha, sha, Sa, etc. as
: "thamizhil uLLa ezhuththukkaL." If this premise is correct
If one likes to coin names that require those
letters he/she uses the names and grantha letters.
I prefer saappaadu (sORu) rather than shaappaadu . I am comfortable
with santhOsam (rather than santhOsHam) for magizhchchi.
I hope you can understand my view. If you can accomodate
something in thamizh do it. That is all.
: P. Dileepan
Dileepan. I do not want to continue. It leads
nowhere.
anban
kathir
:
:
:
: > See my reply to Badri.
: >
: >anban
: >kathir
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
: thangal 'krishamurthi' endra peyarai mattrikoLamal irundathu
: enakku viyappaga irunthathu. athanaal thaan aviyappai 'clean up your
: house' endra muraiyil kurippitten.
\bt thavaRaaka purinthu koNdeerkaL ennai. en thanthai
peyarai uLLapadi thaan ezhuthukiREn. avarudaiya thaayum,
thanthaiyum guruvaayoor saami mEl koNda paththiyin
kaaraNaththaal appadi soottinar.
ooru saami ellaam kodukkaatha varam avarkaLukku
krishnasaami koduththathaaka aRithEn. \et
: prachnaiyum illai. ach cheyal ennodu kurukkittal thaangkal seivathu
: sariyalla.
ungkaL peyar ungkaLathu.
yaarukkum athai uruttavO pirattavO viruppam illai.
: You can write all you want in pure tamil letters. As someone (sorry
: forgot who!) remarked, you can't produce the same sounds as the
: original letters of non-tamizh origin.
Nothing new about your final statement. It holds for all languages.
Even if one cares to write my aunt's name as \bt lakSHmi \et she
is referred as lachchumi by all the elders.
sivan could be shivan/SHivji for somebody
but most thamizhs tell sivan.
regarding thiru, \bt thiruvarangkam, thiruvEngkadam,
thiruppathi,thirumaal, thiruvanthapuram, thirumaRai, thirumagaL, thiruveethi,
thiruneeRu (vipoothi)\et etc please
give a thought about adding sree in place of thiru.
It was you who tried to distort your name
as thirudhar or something and said it looks bad.
athu enakku viyappaaga irunthathu. Just like
Sri not fitting into the above examples, thiru
would not sound good with your name. I am not
a linguist but I have read about people writing
srimaaraa in skt inscription and historians finding
out that the king referred to was a thamizh \bt maaRan \et.
They use some facts in history and also took into account
the absense of Ra in skt [I personally do not
know the alphabets in skt].
Also note how the skt people distorted [used
ra for Ra]
thamizh names to fit into the grammar or
elegance or whatever of their language.
This cannot be termed ethnic cleansing as some worked
up person came up with.
On the same note what would you term changing thirumaRaikkaadu [original]
to vEthaaraNyam by some skt lovers.
: Sridhar.
anban
kathir
: ps: Please excuse transliteration errors.
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <CpK2K...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
|> : k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|>
|>
|> Nothing new about your final statement. It holds for all languages.
|> Even if one cares to write my aunt's name as \bt lakSHmi \et she
|> is referred as lachchumi by all the elders.
|> sivan could be shivan/SHivji for somebody
|> but most thamizhs tell sivan.
So everyone in TN should follow what 'most tamizhs' say?
|> regarding thiru, \bt thiruvarangkam, thiruvEngkadam,
|> thiruppathi,thirumaal, thiruvanthapuram, thirumaRai,
thirumagaL, thiruveethi,
|> thiruneeRu (vipoothi)\et etc please
|> give a thought about adding sree in place of thiru.
|>
Why do you want to change names in common usage? Though this is not
ethnic cleansing, this is linguistic chauvinism. The same applies when
you rename roads etc.. (Lloyds road = 'Avvai Shanmugam road'
etc.. ). How many people follow the new names?
Again note that 'thiru' is in quite common usage. So one cannot have
any grudge against 'sanskritisation' of tamizh names. People use
'thiru' or 'sri' depending on what is in common usage.
|> It was you who tried to distort your name
|> as thirudhar or something and said it looks bad.
|> athu enakku viyappaaga irunthathu. Just like
|> Sri not fitting into the above examples, thiru
|> would not sound good with your name. I am not
|> a linguist but I have read about people writing
|> srimaaraa in skt inscription and historians finding
|> out that the king referred to was a thamizh \bt maaRan \et.
|> They use some facts in history and also took into account
|> the absense of Ra in skt [I personally do not
|> know the alphabets in skt].
|> Also note how the skt people distorted [used
|> ra for Ra]
|> thamizh names to fit into the grammar or
|> elegance or whatever of their language.
|> This cannot be termed ethnic cleansing as some worked
|> up person came up with.
One more thing is this :- As far as I know we have 'ha','sri' and 'ksha'
in tamil. But why do u want to pronounce/write
Srinivasan as Seenivasan (as my tamizh teacher wanted me to write..)
when u have the corresponding letter in tamil? The same applies to
jawaharlal being written as jawagarlal.
|>
|>
|> On the same note what would you term changing thirumaRaikkaadu [original]
|> to vEthaaraNyam by some skt lovers.
How many people use thirumaRaikkaadu now? Why do u want to change
something just because it has been changed by someone long back?
Varadhan
(p.s. my name is Srinivasa Varadhan )- just in case someone asks me
'why are u bothered about srinivasan when your name is Varadhan' :)
|>
|> : Sridhar.
|>
|> anban
|> kathir
|> : ps: Please excuse transliteration errors.
--
Vijay Fafat
> If one likes to coin names that require those
>letters he/she uses the names and grantha letters.
>I prefer saappaadu (sORu) rather than shaappaadu . I am comfortable
>with santhOsam (rather than santhOsHam) for magizhchchi.
>I hope you can understand my view. If you can accomodate
>something in thamizh do it. That is all.
Arre anban Kacchiravan, wat is the problem? If peepuls want
their names spelled in English while you talk English, and not in
Thamizh or watever, why insist? Afterall, one probably wonders if
proper names aren't different from Dirrukurals, no? I mean, you
wouldn't call the President here "Pillai CLinthan", would you?
On second thts, may be you would...
Vesay EpEpTee.
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <CpJw6...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> MF...@utcvm.utc.edu wrote:
|> : In article <CpJK5...@cunews.carleton.ca>
|> : k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> :
|> If one likes to coin names that require those
|> letters he/she uses the names and grantha letters.
|> I prefer saappaadu (sORu) rather than shaappaadu . I am comfortable
|> with santhOsam (rather than santhOsHam) for magizhchchi.
|> I hope you can understand my view. If you can accomodate
|> something in thamizh do it. That is all.
But you don't need to twist the words in order to accomodate them in
tamil. ( you = generic).
Varadhan
--
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <2qmn7p$m...@news.iastate.edu>, ch...@iastate.edu ( Thirumalai-Anand) writes:
|>
Sorry to follow up on my own article..
|>
|> One more thing is this :- As far as I know we have 'ha','sri' and 'ksha'
|> in tamil. But why do u want to pronounce/write
|> Srinivasan as Seenivasan (as my tamizh teacher wanted me to write..)
|> when u have the corresponding letter in tamil? The same applies to
|> jawaharlal being written as jawagarlal.
I guess it should be savagarlal according to 'tamil puritans'..
Varadhan
--
Sridhar Venkataraman
| Sridhar Venkataraman (sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
| : prachnaiyum illai. ach cheyal ennodu kurukkittal thaangkal seivathu
| : sariyalla.
|
| ungkaL peyar ungkaLathu.
| yaarukkum athai uruttavO pirattavO viruppam illai.
This is all I need. How about following your own words when cho Ramas(w)amy
is called chO and not sO?
| regarding thiru, \bt thiruvarangkam, thiruvEngkadam,
| thiruppathi,thirumaal, thiruvanthapuram, thirumaRai, thirumagaL, thiruveethi,
| thiruneeRu (vipoothi)\et etc please
| give a thought about adding sree in place of thiru.
Why? I am perfectly comfortable with the usage of thiru in its
appropriate conventional usage. I am not trying to prove any superiority
of Sri (and ofcourse by implication, Sanskrit) here.
In an effort to tamilize everything don't be overenthusiastic and
mutilate the spoken language.
Sridhar.
Some more research into the non-patriotic names: :)
Srisailam
Srikanteshwaram (in Tiruvananthapuram - my keralite roommate tells me)
Srivaraham (in Tiruvananthapuram again)
Sriharikota
Rameswaram
Jolarpettai
ps: hey thirukanth, neer olAjuvAn rasigara baarkli rasigara? emakku
peruththa santhegam Erpattulathu! :)
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
:
: How many people use thirumaRaikkaadu now? Why do u want to change
: something just because it has been changed by someone long back?
VaradharE!
ummOdu naan vaathiya iyalaathu
En enRaal thideer enRu BOHOO! ena kaththa aarambiththividuveer.
poiyai thirumba thirumba sonnaal uNmai
aakividum enpathu thangkaLukku theriyaathathu alla.
I was not advocating a change.
But you see people like you changed it and how
many people in TN would understand kaadu (th)=aaraNyam (skt).
You can slowly kill a simple beautiful language or
name.
: Varadhan
: (p.s. my name is Srinivasa Varadhan )- just in case someone asks me
: 'why are u bothered about srinivasan when your name is Varadhan' :)
Most of you have make all kinds of assumptions.
I thank paapat for adding flavor to the meal [discussion].
anban
kathir
: |>
: |> : Sridhar.
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# I prefer saappaadu (sORu) rather than shaappaadu.
Dear anban,
saappaadu is the correct pronunciation and shappaadu is wrong
(the root word is saappiduthal, a thamizh word). Therefore you are
doing the correct thing by saying saappaadu. If few brahmins keep on
using shappaadu then they are wrong. But,
# I am comfortable
# with santhOsam (rather than santhOsHam) for magizhchchi.
It is not a question of being comfortable. It is simply wrong. You are
taking a sanskrit word and just killing it because your tongue can not
produce these accents. If you can not produce these accents because
your native language does not have diacritical marks or letters to
represent them, it is fine. But, if you know the correct pronunciation
(because you have learnt some other language) and still are
comfortable with some "ulagath thamizhar magazine standards" we can
not do anything to that, can we?
# I hope you can understand my view. If you can accomodate
# something in thamizh do it. That is all.
No. Your view can not be understood by any one except that you are
being plainly stupid and fundamentalistic. You will not try to change
and adopt but rather try hard to accomodate everything in thamizh.
Certainly a blind fanatic will continue to do that. You have every
right to do whatever you want. But when it comes to spelling others
names, be courteous and spell it the way they do. (of course it goes
without saying that what I am telling you should be taken as a request
and not advice).
and in an earlier post you mentioned:
# : > See my reply to Badri.
What reply? Your reply to me perhaps stayed on your news server for 5
minutes or so before you cancelled it? In which ever case, I had
enough time to write a follow up to it. I hope you read my follow up
where I clarified that I had no intention of calling you names (like
babcha). While I do not want to continue having anything to do with
your postings (starting this moment), let me mention one last
thing. You do not understand what others are writing and you do not
write anything that others can understand (perhaps deliberately).
--Badri.
PS: I am bidding a tearful farewell to SCT:-) for a week during which
time I will be slogging/mugging for my admission to candidacy exam but
fear not! Will be back with a lot more veNpaa and more! So don't go
away:-)
PPS: If you have a good library with a lot of thamizh books, search
under `thanippaadal thirattu'. I saw atleast 4 different books
compiled by different people. The one I am currently reading is
compiled by `pulavar a. maanikkam'.
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <CpLF6...@cunews.carleton.ca>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> Thirumalai-Anand (ch...@iastate.edu) wrote:
|>
|> :
|> : How many people use thirumaRaikkaadu now? Why do u want to change
|> : something just because it has been changed by someone long back?
|>
|> VaradharE!
|>
|> ummOdu naan vaathiya iyalaathu
|> En enRaal thideer enRu BOHOO! ena kaththa aarambiththividuveer.
I said that because of your reply to badri, where u had accused him of
calling u names, when he did not.( I assume you had cancelled it now because
Badri, in his latest posting says so, but I have saved it).
That was intended to be on the lighter side. If it was hurting to you,
I am sorry. But I do not do that when I reply to someone.
|>
|> poiyai thirumba thirumba sonnaal uNmai
|> aakividum enpathu thangkaLukku theriyaathathu alla.
|>
|> I was not advocating a change.
|> But you see people like you changed it and how
|> many people in TN would understand kaadu (th)=aaraNyam (skt).
|> You can slowly kill a simple beautiful language or
|> name.
So, spend all your time in changing names? What productive use does it
have for the society?
|>
|>
|> : Varadhan
|>
|> : (p.s. my name is Srinivasa Varadhan )- just in case someone asks me
|> : 'why are u bothered about srinivasan when your name is Varadhan' :)
|> Most of you have make all kinds of assumptions.
That was made because someone had asked 'what is your problem when varadhan
does not ask about it?' in this thread.
Varadhan
--
Srikant Sridevan
In article <1994051002...@homecheese.eas.asu.edu>,
sri...@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman) writes:
>ps: hey thirukanth, neer olAjuvAn rasigara baarkli rasigara? emakku
>peruththa santhegam Erpattulathu! :)
ThirudharE,
Naan PaaRKkley rasigan. Suriyanukkae vettRi. :) Raackket phusssss. :)
KaaLai phussss. :) Arae-pant phusss. :)
Srikant
swaminathan,kashi r
>Was mispelling Varadhan's name really too much. I can't remember anyone
>spelling my name the same way I do. May be you don't care about me!!
>If this comes from Varadhan I can understand.
>
>Prabaharan
I would think most people would spell your name like all tamils
do Prabakaran.
You must be a sanskrit lover to spell it with the "ha"
sound, because the sound "ha" does not exist in tamil,
though a letter like that has later been added in tamil to
spell sanskrit words.
N. Gopalswamy
You are confusing between the sound and the alphabet that represents
the sound (oli-vadivam & vari-vadivam are two different things!).
Tamil has 'ha' sound. There is also a representation in the form of a
rule: if k come singly in the middle or end of a word, then it
sounds like 'ha'. Now, this is equivalent to using a var-vadivam as for
as information theory goes. However, there is a difficulty that if
'ha' sound comes in the beginning of a word, there is no representation.
That is why the varivadivam for 'ha', introduced to handle borrowed
words.
The general rule of vallinam in the middle of a word taking a softer
sound is (unless it is doubled) well-known:
ka - ha as in nakai=nahai (smile/jewelry)
ca - sa as in pacai=pasai (paste)
ta - da as in patam=padam (picture)
tha - thha as in kaathu=kaathhu (ear).
pa - ba as in anpu=anbu (love)
Ra - ra as in maRam=maram (courage)
Note also that
ny+c - j as in panycu=panju
ng+k - g as in pangu, nungu
cheers,
gopal
dxp...@tesla.njit.edu
> use spellings which may irk people. You can very well use `sO' for
> `cho' because ulagath thamizhar magazine did so. You can very well use
May be I missed something. What has Ulagath Thamizhar paper to do with
the argument here. It is published in Tamil and I can't remember any instance
the paper even mentioned Cho. I admit that I only scan through it
whenever I get it and I never read any articles fully. One reason is
that I don't like their style of writing. In my opinion, the flow of writing
in Tn magazines is much better. Ulagath Thamizhar
is not a literary magazine or paper. It is, as I understand, the voice of LTTE.
What does Cho stand for anyway. Is it the first (Tamil) letter
of his first name?
Prabaharan
> --badri.
>
Ravi Sundaram
>What does Cho stand for anyway. Is it the first (Tamil) letter
>of his first name?
I am not really sure of this. But once I heard that his name
is Somasundaram S Ramaswamy. He started out as a comedian in
movies and Tamil Movie comedians usually add a funny prefix
to their names. (thEngaai, isari, Gundu, thayir_vadai, crazy)
Probably that is how sO became chO. But a man of his intelligence
could have come up with funnier adai_mozhi. Or it could have
started in his cricket days.
He is known for his magazine, plays and movies. He also
used to play for a team in TNCricket Asso.'s First Division League.
He is reputed to be a Ranji trophy level batsman. He delivered
an extra mural lecture in IIT Madras. Proud, bordering on
arrogance, the ease with which he floored IITians during the
QA session was to be seen to be believed...
.--. o o
.____ ___| .| .___ .___ .___ .____ . __
| | ( / || |_|__ | |_ |_|_ | | | | |
| | O L__| (__) | | _) (_./ ) | | |__|__|
/ / /
UTA
(The University of Texas at Arlington)
___________________________________________________________________________
swaminathan,kashi r
Sundhar Soma <som...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
> tamil words and making it more popular, and on the
> other hand we see this purposeful removal of existing
> *tamil* alphabets like "ha, sha, ja" etcetera.
Not true. One of our members prefers to sign his name as
"Prabaharan" while the usual method is "Prabakaran", thereby
introducing the 'ha' sound into tamil. I really think it has to do
with the way a person is accustomed to and has nothing to do with
tamizh. I feel people should have a freedom to do their own way.
Only problem is that sometimes it may become un-understandable.
For example for a long time I did not know that So referred to cho.
In the above example prabakaran means one who makes everything shine
Prabaharan means one who steals the light - which is ok as an
english idiom.
> for avoiding some "sounds" in tamil language. Is this
> one other way of claiming the ancient superiority of
> pre-sanskritic tamil or is it some other trivial
> political exercise? Whatever it is, to me it seems that
> I think almost all the major magazines (weekly,monthlyetc..)
> do have ha,sha, ja etcetera...
>
dxp...@tesla.njit.edu
> I would think most people would spell your name like all tamils
> do Prabakaran.
> You must be a sanskrit lover to spell it with the "ha"
> sound, because the sound "ha" does not exist in tamil,
> though a letter like that has later been added in tamil to
> spell sanskrit words.
See Gopalaswamy's comments on the use of ha in tamil. I have no
problem with using foreign letters (whether it is from sanskrit or latin).
I do not hate any language. If we can adopt foreign letters so that
we can pronounce (spell) foreign names, it is fine with me. Some in the
net may not agree with me. That's fine with me too!!
Prabaharan
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: In article <CpJox...@uwindsor.ca>,
: Sundhar Soma <som...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
: tamizh. I feel people should have a freedom to do their own way.
: Only problem is that sometimes it may become un-understandable.
: For example for a long time I did not know that So referred to cho.
: In the above example prabakaran means one who makes everything shine
: Prabaharan means one who steals the light - which is ok as an
: english idiom.
`sO' is not wrong. I was amazed to find a few people
making fun just for the sake of doing it.
: > for avoiding some "sounds" in tamil language. Is this
: > one other way of claiming the ancient superiority of
: > pre-sanskritic tamil or is it some other trivial
: > political exercise? Whatever it is, to me it seems that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: > I think almost all the major magazines (weekly,monthlyetc..)
: > do have ha,sha, ja etcetera...
: >
: > Somasundhar
: >
It is not a political exercise to use simple
thamizh words. thamizh has accepted many words from other
languages. We can tamilize them and use them. This is not
an invention of dravidian movements as some worked up
people complain.
If one has just read a few texts in
pakthi literature it is easy to note tamilized skt
words. Manikavasagar in his praise of sivan
`piNYNYagan pEi kazhal velga'. Please note that
he knew the sound ja is a bit redundant[ This
was pointed out by DrN. Gopalasamy of Univ of Maryland
in this thread].
piNYNYagan[skt]=pinjagan-kollupavan[tam]destroyer [of ego].
light-oLi is jOthi in skt. All those poets
used sOthi for light.
Even modern poets like paarathi
have used many sanskrit words but tamilised
them.
`achchamum pEdimaiyum adimai siRumathiyum
uchchathil koNdaar adi kiLiyE! oomai
sanaNGkaLadi"
^^^^
Note ja has been tamilised to sa.
The ...sation is not new
to tamil alone. It is the case with languages
that borrowed words from tamil as well.
A tamil word like iNYchivEr has been accepted
in many European languages but has changed it form depending
on the language. Greek Zinziber. English Ginger. Swedish
injefera. We know that miLaguththaNNeer is not the same in English.
So we do not have to feel bad about changing the words to suit our language.
tamil existed without sanskrit. True.
We are not debating that or advocating the use of
only words that were in vogue during sangam era.
We can comfortably use sanam for makkaL.
Tamil has also accepted, adopted
words from skt, english without any problem. But
we can avoid redundancy in sounds and can even sacrfice
without being finicky/hellbent about closer sounds to fit
most of the words with simple characters.
People who complain about using sa for ja, sha etc
do have to understand that the sounds need extra characters
and in many cases the sounds are redundant. Also
tamilisation has been a practice that existed before dravidian
movements. Associating politics does not help and name calling
'you tamil fanatic' like the ilks of Badri and Co does not
help either.
anban
kathir
Kris Balasubramanian
Finally an almost clean mail from Kathiravan. It is really very refreshing.
Keepup the good work.
Balu
Dorai Sitaram
> `sO' is not wrong. I was amazed to find a few people
>making fun just for the sake of doing it.
>
>thamizh words. thamizh has accepted many words from other
>languages. We can tamilize them and use them. This is not
>an invention of dravidian movements as some worked up
Dr. Kathiravan Krishnamurthi [sic], you are
conveniently forgetting that
1) you are interfering with personal names, not with
"simple Tamil words";
2) 'ch' is not a non-Tamil sound; and
3) you are dealing not with _"Tamilization"_, but with
_romanization_.
Assuming that "sO" should be given equal or greater
status as an alternative romanization, over and beyond
Cho's own romanization of his name, I doubt you would
be equally adventurous in experimenting with
alternative romanizations for a name like "Francis
Chandran", or even your own. I'd be surprised if you'd
permit "Kuthiravan" as an alternative romanization of
"Kathiravan", citing "u as in up"?
> Associating politics does not help and name calling
>'you tamil fanatic' like the ilks of Badri and Co does not
>help either.
You accuse others of name calling?
--d
ps: Given the frequency with which you claim to be
"name called", I had better use the "Dr." before your
name, for good measure, to underscore my syntactic
respect. (I remember you boasting about your PhD
thesis ever so often, so I guess the "Dr." is
accurate.)
Sundhar Soma
>In article <CpJox...@uwindsor.ca>,
>Sundhar Soma <som...@server.uwindsor.ca> wrote:
>> tamil words and making it more popular, and on the
>> other hand we see this purposeful removal of existing
>> *tamil* alphabets like "ha, sha, ja" etcetera.
>
>Not true. One of our members prefers to sign his name as
>"Prabaharan" while the usual method is "Prabakaran", thereby
>introducing the 'ha' sound into tamil. I really think it has to do
I was talking about puposeful removal of sounds and not
personal freedom to name it one way or other.
>with the way a person is accustomed to and has nothing to do with
>tamizh. I feel people should have a freedom to do their own way.
>Only problem is that sometimes it may become un-understandable.
>For example for a long time I did not know that So referred to cho.
>In the above example prabakaran means one who makes everything shine
>Prabaharan means one who steals the light - which is ok as an
>english idiom.
<stuff deleted>
-Somasundhar
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# `sO' is not wrong. I was amazed to find a few people
# making fun just for the sake of doing it.
So sO is not wrong. If cho is pronounced as sO or chO or cHo,
so be it, but while writing the symbol for formaldehyde please
do not use sO.
# Associating politics does not help and name calling
# 'you tamil fanatic' like the ilks of Badri and Co does not
# help either.
Anban kathir! I am shocked. I profusely apologise if I happened
to hurt your sensitive feelings by saying the truth. If you could
inform me as to how to rectify my mistake, I would be glad to do
so. In fact as a piraayachchiththam, I will sign from now onwards
as
anban
paththiri.
[paththiri kiththiri keeraiththaNdu
aakkippOttaa alvaath thuNdu]
# anban
# kathir
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# Tamil has 'ha' sound. There is also a representation in the form of a
# rule: if k come singly in the middle or end of a word, then it
# sounds like 'ha'. Now, this is equivalent to using a var-vadivam as for
# as information theory goes. However, there is a difficulty that if
# 'ha' sound comes in the beginning of a word, there is no representation.
# That is why the varivadivam for 'ha', introduced to handle borrowed
# words.
I am not sure of the `ha' sound. But of course thamizh has `ga', `ja',
`dha' and `ba' when used in the middle of the word with a preceding
mellinam as you have mentioned below. This is more because of the
feature of the mellinam. But when coming alone, in the middle of the
word, there is no clear rule as to why it should be pronunced softly
as you claim. Though you state that "the general rule of vallinam in
the middle of a word taking a softer sound is (unless it is doubled)
well-known", I doubt whether any thamizh grammar book like
tholkaappiyam talks about this.
[In the following `pa' is hard and `ba' soft etc.]
To say `paampu' one really has to put a lot of stress in the end. But
`paambu' is natural. thamizh never had the soft sound on its own and
fully depended upon the accompanying mellinam to effect the soft
sounds. Which is one of the reasons why there was even a debate as to
whether the word `sangam' was of thamizh origin? (and hence doubting
the concept of the existence of various thamizh sangam). `sangam' is
pronounced with a soft `s' which many thought was not native to
thamizh (sorry, no ready references, will soon provide some). Even
today most people from thirunelvEli area pronounce all words starting
with the derivatives of the third thamizh consonant as `ch'
irrespective of where it is used. It is `changam', `chEval', `chEppu',
`chOppu' etc. How do you explain that?
# cheers,
# gopal
anban
paththiri
Sundhar Soma
<stuff deleted>
>: > for avoiding some "sounds" in tamil language. Is this
>: > one other way of claiming the ancient superiority of
>: > pre-sanskritic tamil or is it some other trivial
>: > political exercise? Whatever it is, to me it seems that
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: > I think almost all the major magazines (weekly,monthlyetc..)
>: > do have ha,sha, ja etcetera...
>: >
>: > Somasundhar
>: >
>
> It is not a political exercise to use simple
>thamizh words. thamizh has accepted many words from other
>languages. We can tamilize them and use them. This is not
^^^^^^^^
Elae! naan kaathu kaathu naa, nee vaethu vaethu ngiriyae
enna vishayam??
I am not telling you to write
pangunI *as* bangunI
or paethai *as* baethai
but why write
bhAratham *as* paaratham
or bhandam *as* pandam ???
Everyone knows that when we write in tamil we write
pandam and bhandam the same way... same 'pa'.
It surely doesn't mean that we pronounce that way....
To make it more clear...
you don't write
kazhagam *as* kazhakam
or velga *as* velka
do you?? Going by your arguments (which is lousy and fanatic
to me) you should be not be using any 'g' at all, as
tamil has 'g' and 'k' as one 'ka'....
>an invention of dravidian movements as some worked up
>people complain.
And you still haven't answered the questions
why delete 'ja', sha, ha.... sounds from
tamil?? And what do you mean by tamilizing??
<stuff deleted>
> Even modern poets like paarathi
>have used many sanskrit words but tamilised
>them.
>
> `achchamum pEdimaiyum adimai siRumathiyum
> uchchathil koNdaar adi kiLiyE! oomai
> sanaNGkaLadi"
> ^^^^
> Note ja has been tamilised to sa.
I can give twice as much examples as you,
to show that Bharathi and other (ancient
and mordern) poets *HAVE USED* 'ja', 'sha'
etc.. (eg., 'jeya soma jeya soma, jeya somadeva..' etc..)
And BTW, I know poets who use *musal* for
*muyal*; probably that will give some
***ization evidences???
I mean did it ever strike to you that
that could be a way of speech??
>
>
> The ...sation is not new
>to tamil alone. It is the case with languages
>that borrowed words from tamil as well.
Alae! Nee porumayai sOthikirae..
jal = jalam; this is tamilization; ok!
But why *salam* ?? ithU vettu vaelai!!!
<stuff deleted>
> Tamil has also accepted, adopted
>words from skt, english without any problem. But
>we can avoid redundancy in sounds and can even sacrfice
^^^^^^^^^^^
What kind of redundancy are you talking about???
ja and sa are the same to you???
sha and sa are redundant sounds to you??
>without being finicky/hellbent about closer sounds to fit
>most of the words with simple characters.
Japanese will be called as "sappAni" only
appidInna, what can I say??
>People who complain about using sa for ja, sha etc
>do have to understand that the sounds need extra characters
>and in many cases the sounds are redundant. Also
>tamilisation has been a practice that existed before dravidian
^^^^^^^^^^^^
To put it in a nutshell, nobody is saying you not
to adapt words/sounds from other language to suit
tamil; but ofcourse there is a difference between
dressing up something and undressing something!!
What the earlier ppl. did was dressing tamil by
matching the new borrowed sounds/words to suit
tamil!! But the dravidian ideology is *undressing*
tamil.........
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: In article <Cpuu5...@cunews.carleton.ca> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
: respect. (I remember you boasting about your PhD
: thesis ever so often, so I guess the "Dr." is
poi sonnaalum poruntha sollanum Dorai.
Thanks.
anban
kathir
Dorai Sitaram
>
> poi sonnaalum poruntha sollanum Dorai.
What Dr. Kathiravan Krishnamurthi is advocating here
is the telling of "suitable" lies. Can't say he
doesn't practice what he preaches.
--d
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: <stuff deleted>
: Elae! naan kaathu kaathu naa, nee vaethu vaethu ngiriyae
: enna vishayam??
ungkaL paaNiyilE!
"ElE! En eriNYchu vizhukaRa?"
^^^^^^
the sound ju is in tamil. We can accomodate
it. Why need a character for ju.
I quoted an example from thiruvaasagam how ja sound
can be composed with NY(inj).
: And what do you mean by tamilizing??
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can only quote examples.
We all know pankajam-thaamarai. If pankajam
were to be written in tamil it could be
pangkayam. Refer to silambu. Gajavaaahu is
written gayavAhu. I think that is tamilisation.
Please take a look below.
`pangkaya mangkai vasantha savunthari panthu payinRaaLE'-from kuRavaNYchi
^^^ ^^^
1 2 3
1 tamilised pangkajam before dravidian movements
2 tamil has redundancy and still can be simplified. sav=sow
3 ji-sound for you. NYchi.
[moorings deleted]
: Alae! Nee porumayai sOthikirae..
alae poRumai enpathE sOthikkaththaan.:-))
: matching the new borrowed sounds/words to suit
: tamil!! But the dravidian ideology is *undressing*
: tamil.........
No. I do not think so.
Infact many changes suggested by periyaar are
implemented and appreciated.
Your prejudiced eye will always complain.
nanRi!
anban
kathir
: >
: > anban
: > kathir
: >
: >
: >
Sundhar Soma
>Sundhar Soma (som...@server.uwindsor.ca) wrote:
>: In article <Cpuu5...@cunews.carleton.ca> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>
> <stuff deleted>
>
> ^^^^^^
>
> the sound ju is in tamil. We can accomodate
>it. Why need a character for ju.
Well, again... here we go....
No body is removing
inj and sa in say "manjam"
and writing "ja". It would be incorrect tamil
plain and straight!
ANd say what?? you can accomodate "ja" sounds??
ok! write "jOsium" "jeyalakshmi" "joothirlingam"
"bhaja govindam" etc etc.etc.etc.etc.etc....
Ofcourse, now we write .. "sOsium", "seyalakshmi"....
purposefully removing tamil words "ja" etc.. and
tamilize it and Man! I'm damn proud to pronounce
it that way too! right???
>I quoted an example from thiruvaasagam how ja sound
>can be composed with NY(inj).
In cases where once can one will!! No one
is asking you to change it! hoooooh!
>
>: And what do you mean by tamilizing??
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
> I can only quote examples.
>We all know pankajam-thaamarai. If pankajam
>were to be written in tamil it could be
>pangkayam. Refer to silambu. Gajavaaahu is
Well, here again inj & sa can't make "ja"
so "iLangO adigalaar" writes pangkayam.
Well, if "ja" were available at that time
most probably he would have used it??
And further, no one is against writing
things as a tamil; absorbing other words
sounds and adapting it to suit one's
language. It is common in every language.
But this puposeful deletion is quite
counter-productory and highly malicious
to the develpoment of our language.
>written gayavAhu. I think that is tamilisation.
>
> Please take a look below.
>
> `pangkaya mangkai vasantha savunthari panthu payinRaaLE'-from kuRavaNYchi
> ^^^ ^^^
> 1 2 3
>
> 1 tamilised pangkajam before dravidian movements
>
> 2 tamil has redundancy and still can be simplified. sav=sow
>
> 3 ji-sound for you. NYchi.
Well, I hinted in my previous reply itself..
Don't get carried away by poetic words. Poetry is
lot more than just usage of words and letters. Its
grammar, rhythm etc.. makes a bigger influence.
As I said before "musal" for "muyal" is also a
form of poetic reference. It hardly provides
evidence for purposeful 'xyzation' of anything.
<stuff deleted>
>: matching the new borrowed sounds/words to suit
>: tamil!! But the dravidian ideology is *undressing*
>: tamil.........
>
> No. I do not think so.
>Infact many changes suggested by periyaar are
>implemented and appreciated.
>Your prejudiced eye will always complain.
He he! Jee! I thought you were complaining of the
very existence of certain sounds in my language! no??
I gave an example myself, how "nai, lai" etc.. is now
written similar to "kai, thai" etc... That is for
the uniformity. It serves a purpose. But, ofcourse,
who says removing "ja' etc.. doesn't serve a purpose??
Right sir??
However much one wants to cover it, "tamil" jingoism
or the so called tamilatvadism are surely direct
consequences of the *fear* created by the Dravidian
politicians on loosing *tamil's* Tamility !?! due
to *tamil's* non-tamility! Similar to the fear that
Islam is in danger or Hinduism is in danger...
> nanRi!
> anban
> kathir
>
>
Somasundhar. vAe
Sundhar Soma
<stuff deleted>
>
> jal = jalam; this is tamilization; ok!
Thanks to Dr.Selva, I stand corrected that
'salam' is a 'tamil' word and has not come
from 'jal'.
<rest deleted>
-Somasundhar. vAe
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: In article <Cq0C0...@cunews.carleton.ca> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
: >Sundhar Soma (som...@server.uwindsor.ca) wrote:
: As I said before "musal" for "muyal" is also a
: form of poetic reference. It hardly provides
: evidence for purposeful 'xyzation' of anything.
:
: <stuff deleted>
muyal is a tamil words and can be accomodated.
You are clearly distorting. I am talking about
tamilising non-tamil words and pointing out that
it was done years ago. ja existed in prakritic
languages but the tamils did not feel the need
to use it.
English never invented a character
to call us thamizh but called us tamil.
They called yaazhpaaNam as jaffna.
Your
example of Japanese becoming sappani is ridiculous.
If you follow the same lines as done for pangkayam
you can be safe and always add ..iar as a respectful
term.
Basically you are clouded with prejudice and
do not want to discuss in a proper way. That is
why you are distorting existing tamil words.
I also suggested redundancy in tamil like `sow' `ai'
We can omit a lot of even existing tamil
characters. Bala Swaminathan had a paper
that suggested some modifications that will
reduce thamizh characters to a fairly small
number quite convenient for computers.
My point in the thread is just
to tell you that tamilisation is not
a dravidian movement's invention.
I shall end my futile efforts
to convince you that tamilisation is
not a recent invention by quoting an
an~upoothi. It is just
your perenial paranoia.
aruNagiri uses sagam for world.
nupoothi-5
"mahamaayai kaLainthida vallapiraan
muhamaaRu mozhinthum ozhinthilanE
ahamaadai madanthaiyar enRayarum
sahamaayaiyuL nNinRu thayanguvathE!"
God capable [vallamai=capability]
of destroying[kaLai=destroy]
the grand delusion [mahamaayai].
Inspite of myself chanting[mozhinthum]
aaRumugaa![mugam aaRu] I am still
thinking of home[aham], palatial wealth[maadai]
and women [madanthaiyar] and am not been
to get rid of [ozhinthilEn] this delusion[maayai]
that is so tiresome[ayarthal- to get tired or vexed].
anban
Kathiravan
Sundhar Soma
>
> muyal is a tamil words and can be accomodated.
>You are clearly distorting. I am talking about
>tamilising non-tamil words and pointing out that
Again you missed the point. You didn't answer
even one of my questions. You started with a
claim of producing the same sounds with available
letters and once they were disproved you came back
to the more essential part of "what is the need
for such a production?"
Noone is against tamilizing non-tamil words, but
will be against re-tamilizing already tamilized
(and reasonably widely accepted forms of writing)
words! Further, you seem to consider a forceful
"tamilization" of other words as a special event
in the development of the language. (which has
made you to qoute some words/ stanzas from tamil
scriptures etc..). But the major point is this
process of tamilization or any ***zation will
(and has) only be successful as a natural process!
And this process has been taking place without
your *sudden CRY*; whether one likes it or not
these things will continue to happen and it is
fro the better!!
>it was done years ago. ja existed in prakritic
>languages but the tamils did not feel the need
>to use it.
Ya right! And you were in the *forefront* of this
documented fact??? Pl. stop these nonsense. For,
anyone can give this kinda abstract crap from
intrepretable history.
>
> English never invented a character
>to call us thamizh but called us tamil.
You don't need to invent. Don't remove existing
characters; Particularly don't blame history and
try to go back in time to remove things which doesn't
suit you!
Mainly because you possess a strong paranoa
that *tamil* is in danger!! These kinda fear can be
more than ever seen nowadays from various directions
and has known to have produced the corresponding
fanatists and jingoists!!
>They called yaazhpaaNam as jaffna.
We also call Bengal as vangAlam and so on. Actually rarely
does any names are retained as it is pronounced in their
particular tongue. But never was it required to change
a name/word just *for the sake of doing it*. If the
pronounciation of certain sounds are difficult (like the
example of 'zh' for a born English speaker say..) then
sure modifications will and have and are been made
everywhere.
> Your
>example of Japanese becoming sappani is ridiculous.
Well, it was to show the stupidity in changing all
'ja' to 'sa'! Ofcourse you have missed the point as usual!
>If you follow the same lines as done for pangkayam
>you can be safe and always add ..iar as a respectful
>term.
>
> Basically you are clouded with prejudice and
>do not want to discuss in a proper way. That is
Yeah right! You haven't answered a single question
I have posed! And I have been the one who is trying
to answer your objections! So, naturally I'm prejudiced,
right?? or probably because I'm saying that *tamil* is
much more open minded than you are?? or probably b'cose
I asked why write *pa* for *bha* while leaving *ga* as
it is??
>why you are distorting existing tamil words.
Man! now I'm distorting tamil words!!
Please stop defining and telling which is tamil to
others! You are the one who is distorting tamil words.
Particularly by fixing some date in *history* as a pure
date and considering the ones after that as non-acceptable.
>I also suggested redundancy in tamil like `sow' `ai'
>We can omit a lot of even existing tamil
>characters. Bala Swaminathan had a paper
>that suggested some modifications that will
>reduce thamizh characters to a fairly small
>number quite convenient for computers.
That kinda things will and have to happen and
will be acceptable by all, when the question
is redundancy alone! And I think the words
discussed are far from redundant! If one
starts this process of finding the necessary
words and or/ or removing the redundancy in
sounds, One should start from the basics FIRST!
And not with political gimmicks!
(The example of how *nai* etc.. are written now
mainly was done due to th eprint media convenience)
>
> My point in the thread is just
>to tell you that tamilisation is not
>a dravidian movement's invention.
>
Well, tamilization, in the broadest sense of the
word, has existed ever since tamil started
interactions with other languages! ( ~ even before
the human life came into being! ;) Na......) :)
So stop mixing this *known facts* with the problem
we are talking about. We are talking about the forceful
tamilization (actually re-tamilization or undressing!?)
of tamil. And this is political ALONE!
>
> I shall end my futile efforts
>to convince you that tamilisation is
>not a recent invention by quoting an
Oh! for heaven sake if you can't
understand what we are arguing about,
then don't argue!
To go about in *your own incongruent style*
I, *so & so* hereby shall end my futile attempt in trying
to make you, *Mr. Kat...* understand that
If 'G' is a finite group and p^n is the
largest power of the prime p that divided
|G|, then G contains a sub-group of order
p^n. :) ;)
<some religious *threats* deleted b'cose of *FEAR*> ;)
> anban
> Kathiravan
>
Somasundhar. vAe
PS : In the next discussion, irrespective of the topic,
*Kathiravan Krishnamurthy* will end with
*thirukural is written in tamil, you bigoted ppl!!*
followed by a religious connotation saying that
*bigotry is equivalent to killing* :) ;)!!
S.S. Sekariapuram
Vannakkam anban Kathir sir,
Do you spell your last name 'kirutinamoorti' ??
Just curious.
Nanri,
:)
Seshan (Chetan,no ...Setan,no...Satan,no.... Seshan).
dxp...@tesla.njit.edu
> dxp...@tesla.njit.edu 'Prabaharan':
>>What does Cho stand for anyway. Is it the first (Tamil) letter
>>of his first name?
>
> used to play for a team in TNCricket Asso.'s First Division League.
Cho is without doubt a man of intellect. I used to read Thuglug when I
was in SL. He was funny in his movies too. Towards the end (of his movie
career) he started relying on politics for his humor. May it was intentional,
but in doing so he lost his charm.
I always thought his name was sO until I saw Cho in SCT!
Prabaharan