Brahmin genes different from lower caste
nob...@replay.com
GET READY FOR ANOTHER ROUND OF USELESS DISCUSSION.
Taken from DC at www.deccan.com
===============================
Brahmins are Caucasians, lower castes genes similar to Africans
London:
It’s all in the genes; even the caste system. High caste
Brahmins have DNA with greater similarities to those of
Caucasians, while lower caste DNA shows similarities
to those of African tribes, says a group of
American and Indian anthropologists in a new study that reveals
history through genetics.
According to Bhaskara Rao, professor of anthropology and professor
J M Naidu of Andhra University, who co-authored the
study, this fits historical records that say the
caste system was imposed by Caucasians who swept into
India from parts of former Soviet Union.
Indian and US researchers isolated paternal and maternal ancestry
by analysing markers on the “Y chromosome” inherited
through the paternal line and “mitochondrial DNA,”
which is inherited maternally.
They found that the 3,000-year-old caste system has left an indelible
mark on the genes of modern day Hindus.
That mark is still evident even though the system was outlawed in
the 1960s.
It could subconsciously determine the way in which we choose
marriage partners, the anthropologists say.“We have been
working for two years on caste populations in Andhra
Pradesh. And this is the first study to show the impact of
social rules on the genome,” Dr Rao said.
The team collected blood samples from 300 unrelated men from
12 populations spanning the Hindu caste hierarchy and
analysed them at the molecular genetics laboratory,
CCMB in Hyderabad.
They essentially compared the DNA sequences of men of
different castes, measuring how many differences there
were in the same 400 base-pair segment of mt DNA and in seven
segments of their Y-chromosomes.
The findings were presented to the American Association of
Physical Anthropologists in a paper that claims historical and
social events can be detected in the genome.
For example, the team found through Dioxy Ribo Nucleic Acids
similarities that men tended to stay in the castes into which they
were born. But women could climb the social ladder
into higher castes through marriage.
“You get this ladder effect, where women tend to move to a caste of
the next higher rank. But the men are stuck,” says
Lynne Jorde, a geneticist at the University of Utah
and one of the co-authors.
This is said to confirm a pattern found in cultures worldwide — that
women can move up in social rank because higher ranking
males are not against marrying lower ranking females
and in many cases marry them to prove their superiority and
hold over the social order. But lower ranking males have the least choice in
selection of mates and have to chose from withing their community.
Besides the two Andhra University professors, the
team comprised L Jorde and Michael Bamshad of the University of Utah.
The work is being hailed as a clear application of molecular
genetics to anthropology. According to a molecular biologist from
the United States of America Rebecca Cann, it offers genetic proof that “humans
choose mates according to the rules which are often different for men and
women.”
Madurai Veeran
nob...@replay.com wrote in message <6i9t6q$3...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>
Good, let's send the brahmins back to the Steppes of
Central Asia, back to their own kith and kin.
What do you guys/girls say?
Madurai Veeran
Saurabh Jang
nob...@replay.com wrote:
: GET READY FOR ANOTHER ROUND OF USELESS DISCUSSION.
: Taken from DC at www.deccan.com
: ===============================
: Brahmins are Caucasians, lower castes genes similar to Africans
: London:
: It’s all in the genes; even the caste system. High caste
: Brahmins have DNA with greater similarities to those of
: Caucasians, while lower caste DNA shows similarities
: to those of African tribes, says a group of
: American and Indian anthropologists in a new study that reveals
: history through genetics.
I agree with some of the statements about women having more mobility
in the caste system, but it is facile generalizations such as above and the
small sample size which make me doubt its validity. I mean
"shows similarity with African tribes" is such a vague statement as to
be useless. Shows similarity with which tribe? Tutsi? Hutu? Some other?
Shows similarity with which Caucasians? Swedes? Italians? Irish? Some other?
Also how was the choice of which DNA fragments to compare made? They obviously
didn't choose those that determine hair color or eye color for example.
What about Brahmins from different Gotras and from different parts of the
country? Are some "more" Caucasian than others? Are all low castes
"equally African"?
: According to Bhaskara Rao, professor of anthropology and professor
nob...@replay.com
In article <6ibj0j$584$1...@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Madurai says...
>Good, let's send the brahmins back to the Steppes of
>Central Asia, back to their own kith and kin.
>
>What do you guys/girls say?
>
>
>Madurai Veeran
And we send all non brahmins to africa, from where they should have never come
out in the first place.
What do you apes say ?
fun...@hotmail.com
Hi Guys/Gals:
This kind of discussion is dangerous. We are not even sure of the validity
of the study. Let's not make any generalizations. Also, India is too unique
to bring race into play. It is the culture that makes one Indian not race
(whatever this means) or skin color. Only after coming to US, we learned
what is race. Before that I don't think that we thought about race like we
do today. Let us not brainwash ourselves or be brainwashed by others.
While people in advanced countries like America want to put race behind them
(Clinton being the best example), rats like Mr. nobody are just evolving.
Juz Wonderin'
fundman
"People who feel good about themselves don't hate others. Losers hate
themselves and others" -Anonymous
In article <6iciko$7...@drn.newsguy.com>#1/1,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
S.L.
good reply!
*************************************************************
nob...@replay.com wrote in message <6iciko$7...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Saurabh Jang
Are you serious? Or is this another case of your "I only wanted to
start a debate" style?
Saurabh
Madurai Veeran (Madurai...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: nob...@replay.com wrote in message <6i9t6q$3...@drn.newsguy.com>...
: >
: Good, let's send the brahmins back to the Steppes of
Gopala Ganesh
fun...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi Guys/Gals:
>
> This kind of discussion is dangerous. We are not even sure of the validity
> of the study. Let's not make any generalizations. Also, India is too unique
> to bring race into play. It is the culture that makes one Indian not race
> (whatever this means) or skin color. Only after coming to US, we learned
> what is race. Before that I don't think that we thought about race like we
> do today. Let us not brainwash ourselves or be brainwashed by others.
>
> While people in advanced countries like America want to put race behind them
> (Clinton being the best example), rats like Mr. nobody are just evolving.
>
> Juz Wonderin'
>
> fundman
way to go!
reminds me of a Tamil proverb: oru kudam paalukku oru thuLi visham!
A pot full of milk is rendered deadly by a single drop of poison!
let us send such researchers to Pluto to carry out their investigation
in peace!
- ganesh
- ganesh
Dr. Jai Maharaj
In article <6iciko$7...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>> Central Asia, back to their own kith and kin.
>> What do you guys/girls say?
>> Madurai Veeran
>
> they should have never come out in the first place.
Today is only the first day of the month, but I am confident
that a wittier rejoinder than the above will not be
seen here in May. Kyaa nehlay par dehlaa lagaayaa |
Jai Maharaj
Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti
8088
This is disgusting.
fun...@hotmail.com wrote in article <6id2ol$u1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> Hi Guys/Gals:
>
> This kind of discussion is dangerous. We are not even sure of the
validity
> of the study. Let's not make any generalizations. Also, India is too
unique
> to bring race into play. It is the culture that makes one Indian not race
> (whatever this means) or skin color. Only after coming to US, we learned
> what is race. Before that I don't think that we thought about race like
we
> do today. Let us not brainwash ourselves or be brainwashed by others.
>
> While people in advanced countries like America want to put race behind
them
> (Clinton being the best example), rats like Mr. nobody are just evolving.
>
> Juz Wonderin'
>
> fundman
>
> "People who feel good about themselves don't hate others. Losers hate
> themselves and others" -Anonymous
>
>
>
> In article <6iciko$7...@drn.newsguy.com>#1/1,
> nob...@replay.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <6ibj0j$584$1...@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>, "Madurai says...
> >
> > >Good, let's send the brahmins back to the Steppes of
> > >Central Asia, back to their own kith and kin.
> > >
> > >What do you guys/girls say?
> > >
> > >
> > >Madurai Veeran
> >
> > And we send all non brahmins to africa, from where they should have
never
> come
> > out in the first place.
> >
> > What do you apes say ?
> >
>
>
Prem Thomas
Jay Stevens posing as "Jai Maharaj" wrote:
> In article <6iciko$7...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> nob...@replay.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > And we send all non brahmins to africa, from where
> > they should have never come out in the first place.
> > What do you apes say ? - nobody
>
> Today is only the first day of the month, but I am confident
> that a wittier rejoinder than the above will not be
> seen here in May. Kyaa nehlay par dehlaa lagaayaa |
Ooooh, this one's a keeper! Jay Stevens supporting the view that all
non-Brahmins are from Africa(and resemble apes)! Jay, the least you
could have done here was to keep your gnarly fingers away from the
keyboard.
South Asian unity? Not with Jay Stevens-types trying to dictate policy!
Prem
mailto:pre...@qed.net
Madurai Veeran
Saurabh Jang wrote in message <6id9jl$7mh$3...@hirame.wwa.com>...
>Are you serious? Or is this another case of your "I only wanted to
>start a debate" style?
>
>Saurabh
>
Well Saurabh, I did not intend to start a debate,
which I knew would inevitably turn very ugly. It
was intended to be a remark in a light vein.
I also knew that the humanoid chimera Mr.nobody
was bound to come back with that answer. But it
at least served the purpose of exposing people like
Mr.Nobody and they are there, whether we like it
or not.
There is no doubt, the writer of the article from
London twisted those findings to better suit his
prejudices. And then there are 'scientists' like
Bhaskara Rao and J.M.Naidu to provide fuel for
those casteist and racist fires.
Let' ask ourselves a few questions.
What are these scientists trying to accomplish?
Are they trying to justify casteism through their
half-baked (in all probablities) analysis of some
nucleotides? Modern biology is all too well known for
mischievous misinterpretations.
Or, are they trying to serve their foreign masters to
help extend their theories of racism to India and
exacerbate issues of casteism with racism?
Who are those people who help fund such researches?
Don't we have better things to do with such funds?
Now, I want someone in the Parliament to ask these
scientists and the funding agency to explain what
is that they are trying to achieve for India
through their scientific research?
Madurai Veeran
>Madurai Veeran (Madurai...@pacbell.net) wrote:
>
>: nob...@replay.com wrote in message <6i9t6q$3...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>: >
>
>: Good, let's send the brahmins back to the Steppes of
Parthasarati Dileepan
Madurai Veeran wrote in message <6ifl84$9ub$1...@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>...
>
>Let' ask ourselves a few questions.
>
>What are these scientists trying to accomplish?
>
>Are they trying to justify casteism through their
>half-baked (in all probablities) analysis of some
>nucleotides? Modern biology is all too well known for
>mischievous misinterpretations.
>
>Or, are they trying to serve their foreign masters to
>help extend their theories of racism to India and
>exacerbate issues of casteism with racism?
I agree, but not in the way you are thinking. Consider the following:
nob...@replay.com wrote in message <6i9t6q$3...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>Taken from DC at www.deccan.com
>===============================
>It’s all in the genes; even the caste system. High caste
>Brahmins have DNA with greater similarities to those of
>Caucasians, while lower caste DNA shows similarities
>to those of African tribes, says a group of
It seems this study that Mr. Nobody quotes finds similarities
between Brahmins and Caucasians. Leaving the validity of
this aside, why should this exacerbate issues of "casteism
with racism" unless one thinks being Caucasian is "superior"
in some way to being an African.
Further, the study seems to suggest that Brahmins imposed
caste system upon the non-brahmins. Again, leaving the
validity of this aside, I am surprised that the "pc" missed
this obvious fodder. Is it possible that they got incensed
that the Brahmins were being equated to the "great"
Caucasians and the NBs to the "lowly" Africans?!!
BTW, for a practicing Brahmin, a Caucasian is a mlecha.
Thus, for him, to be equated to a Caucasian would be
repugnant. Some would say this is racism, but not the
kind you seem to have in your mind.
Now, coming to the study itself, if such researchers are
to be rocketed out to distant planets, perhaps we must
come out with a list of research subjects that are acceptable
so that future anthropologists could tailor their intellectual
curiosity to acceptable avenues and avoid serious
consequences of forbidden enquiry.
-- Dileepan
M.Ranganathan
In article <6ifl84$9ub$1...@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>,
Madurai Veeran <Madurai...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
I think the findings are stupid and wrong. First, Brahmins are not
a racial group but a cultural one. However, I dont think the article
is racist. Unless a claim of racial superiority is made, one cannot
jump to the conclusion of racism.
>
>There is no doubt, the writer of the article from
>London twisted those findings to better suit his
>prejudices. And then there are 'scientists' like
>Bhaskara Rao and J.M.Naidu to provide fuel for
>those casteist and racist fires.
>
>
>Let' ask ourselves a few questions.
>
>What are these scientists trying to accomplish?
As my french friend would say "proot". They have time on their hands.
From a practical point of view these findings are of little use.
Indeed, so what if Brahmins came from central asia or north dakota or
anywhere else. So what if Non Brahmins came from Timbuktoo? Migrations
that happened thousands of years ago mean nothing today.
However, lets assume their findings are true for a minute. Why do you
think of them as being "prejudiced"?
>
>Are they trying to justify casteism through their
>half-baked (in all probablities) analysis of some
>nucleotides? Modern biology is all too well known for
Why do you jump to this conclusion? As far as I can interpret, it
only says certain castes came from certain parts of the world in ancient
times. So what?
>mischievous misinterpretations.
>
>Or, are they trying to serve their foreign masters to
>help extend their theories of racism to India and
>exacerbate issues of casteism with racism?
>
>Who are those people who help fund such researches?
>Don't we have better things to do with such funds?
Research of this kind may help historians. On the basis of artifacts,
it has long been theorized that there were migations from central asia.
Now (assuming that the findings are correct), we have genetic evidence.
It would be misuse of funds if somebody tried to establish some theory
of superiority based on such research.
I view this research as being benign (but perhaps useless).
>Now, I want someone in the Parliament to ask these
>scientists and the funding agency to explain what
>is that they are trying to achieve for India
>through their scientific research?
What do historians achieve for India by their research?
Intellectual auto-eroticism man - that is the key.
>
>Madurai Veeran
>
>
Ranga.
Dr. Jai Maharaj
A related article from almost three years ago:
[ Subject: Re: the bell curve
[ From: j...@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
[ Date: May 10, 1995
[ Message-ID: <dHDsvQ9z...@mantra.com>
[ Newsgroups: sci.med.psychobiology,alt.fan.jai-maharaj
Forwarded article
[****PNEWS CONFERENCES****]
[ From: Michael R Swanson <mswa...@ns.gamewood.net> ]
[ Subject: The Bell Curve and Eugenics ]
Permission granted to reproduce and distribute as long as no content is
changed:
THE BELL CURVE AND EUGENICS
by Michael Swanson
(C)1995
"I still think today as yesterday that the
color line is a great problem of this century.
But today I see more clearly than yesterday
that back of the problem of race and color,
lies a greater problem which both obscures and
implements it: and that is the fact that so
many civilized persons are willing to live in
comfort even if the price of this is poverty,
ignorance, and disease of the majority of their
fellowmen." -W.E.B. Du Bois
"At the core of the American psyche is the
belief that hard work, education, and
perseverance can overcome any disadvantage of
wealth, background or class. It may even be
true. The history of the U.S. is filled with
individuals rising from rural poverty or
immigrant ghettos to gain affluence, political
power, or Nobel Prizes." Also connected with
this belief is the fundamental idea, even
stated in the Declaration of Independence, that
all people are created equal. Most Americans
believe environment, education, and opportunity
determine how much a person can achieve.
Now a new and controversial book, titled The
Bell Curve, is challenging these fundamental
beliefs. The authors, Richard Herrnstein and
Charles Murray, claim that inherited
intelligence and not environment or class is
the main determiner of what a person can make
out of their life. They say that "success or
failure in the American economy, and all that
goes with it, are increasingly a matter of the
genes that people inherit." The poor are poor
not because they are unlucky to be born poor,
but because they were not lucky enough to have
inherited good genes. They also assert that IQ
scores are the most reliable way of measuring
intelligence or cognitive ability and that IQ
cannot be improved. They argue that America is
separating itself into a class of high a IQ
"cognitive elite" and an inferior class with
low IQ. A low IQ is a predictor of crime,
poverty, unemployment, and government
dependency while a high IQ is a predictor of
wealth and stability. The Bell Curve uses data
to justify an overhauling of social policy and
says that great cutbacks in social programs are
needed because they subsidize the growth of the
lower intelligence population. "The ranks of
the cognitively inferior, they assert, are
disproportionately filled with blacks, Latinos,
and today's immigrants. And that's a serious
disadvantage because low IQ- not education or
opportunity-is the key factor underlying
problems ranging from poverty and criminal
behavior to out of wedlock births and being a
bad parent."
Because of the book's controversial ideas it
has recieved a large amount of press attention.
Bill Clinton denounced it and said that he was
"outraged by the thrust of the book." Over
100 magazine and newspaper articles have been
written about it, most of them being
unfavorable. The New Republic and National
Review both devoted entire issues to the book.
Although most commentary on it has been
negative, Forbes and the National Review
reviewed it favorably. According to a lead
editorial in the National Review: "A howling
mob of liberal commentators not knowing what in
hell they are talking about is a dispiriting
spectacle, and media reaction to the
Herrnstein-Murray book has been infinitely
depressing." Is the media attacking the book
because of a liberal bias as the National
Review suggests or is it really flawed? Only
by examining The Bell Curve's data and
arguments can one make an independent
determination.
The basis of their arguments rely on their
beliefs on intelligence and IQ. According to
The Bell Curve:
1. "IQ scores match, to a first degree,
whatever it is that people mean when they use
the word intelligent or smart in ordinary
language."
2. "Properly administered IQ tests are not
demonstrably biased against social, economic,
ethnic, or racial groups."
3. "The cognitive ability is substantially
heritable, apparently no less than 40 percent
and no more than 80 percent."
The authors assert that these beliefs are
"beyond technical dispute" and give the
impression that they are readily accepted in
academics and science, but this really isn't
so. Is IQ really an accurate measure of
intelligence or is it just an attempt to define
intelligence, perhaps inadequately? The authors
skip this question. Stephen Gould asks, "How
can the authors base an 800 page book on a
claim for the reality of IQ as measuring a
genuine, largely, genetic, general cognitive
ability - and then hardly discuss either pro or
con, the theoretical basis for their certainty
?"
There are many social scientists and
geneticists who do not think IQ is a measure of
total intelligence. "The prevalence of
different kinds of mental talents has led
Harvard University's Howard Gardner to suggest
that people possess seven different kinds of
intelligence: the traditional notions of
intelligence, such as verbal skills,
mathematical reasoning and spatial abilities,
as well as smarts in music and body movement,
and social skills involving the degree of
mastery a person has over himself and his
talent for interacting with others.
Conventional IQ tests measure only a tiny
sliver of these skills, argues Gardner, thereby
ignoring the "genius" of artists like Pablo
Picasso, Martha Graham, and Igor Stravinsky."
Yale's Robert Sternberg has created tests that
measure "practical intelligence" to determine
how well people do in real life situations.
These tests predict job performance better than
IQ tests. According to Sternberg, "Many other
factors, taken together have more influence on
the outcome of people's lives than IQ" such as
personality, motivation, experience, and the
environment in which he was born. Sternberg
notes that "in any field such as art,
technology, teaching and science, creativity is
at least as important as IQ." Even though
many prominent social scientists dispute Murray
and Herrnsteins' total acceptance of IQ as the
ultimate measure of intelligence we will accept
their claim for the sake of discussion.
Herrnstein and Murray labor for over eight
chapters to prove that low IQ is the cause of
poverty and low status. They do so by taking
the unbiased government study titled National
Longitudinal Survey of Labor Market Experience
of Youth(NLSY) and the Armed Forces Aptitude
test as the major sources for their data. "The
NLSY survey included more than 12,000
youngsters, who were aged 14 to 22 when the
continuing study began in 1979. At the time
the respondents or their parents gave
information about their educations,
occupations, incomes, answered those questions
themselves...As they have grown older the
respondents have provided more information
about their own schooling, unemployment,
poverty, marital status, childbearing, welfare
dependency, criminality, parenting behavior,
and so on." However, The Bell Curve gives the
false impression that the Armed Forces Aptitude
Test can be used to tie IQ with job and school
performance. "Pentagon scientists who
administer it say the test isn't even an IQ
test. Scores rise with the amount of schooling
test-takers have, notes Barnard M. Baruch
College's June O'Neill, who uses the test to
study such issues as workplace discrimination.
So it's no surprise that test scores predict
school performance."
Murray and Herrnstein deck out their argument
with a barrage of charts, graphs, tables, and
statistical techniques. Their conclusions seem
completely based on science and well reasoned
to the lay reader. They prove over and over
again that there is a correlation to IQ and low
socioeconomic status, poverty, crime,
occupation, illegitimate children and a whole
host of other social problems. They work to
give the reader the impression that IQ is the
cause of these problems, but never really prove
it. They confuse correlation with causation.
One instance of their use of statistics is
their use of regression analysis to prove that
the income differences between blacks and
whites would not be so extreme if black IQs
were not lower than white IQs. "Using
regression analysis they control for IQ,
effectively seeing what would happen if it were
equal for both groups. This mathematical
manipulation, the authors say, reduces the
difference between poverty rates for blacks and
whites by 77 percent, an impressively precise
statistic. This suggests, they say, that
income differences are primarily the result of
IQ than of a family's economic status." But
mathematicians find their use of regression
analysis to control for IQ lacking.
"Mathematicians like Stanford's Olkin take a
more skeptical view of what it means to control
for anything. 'It's a bad term because it can
mean many different things', he said. Knowing
who goes to church in a community, he said, can
help predict who gets burglarized - because
'people who go to church frequently leave the
doors open. But it doesn't mean you cause
burglaries by going to church.'" You can
prove there is a relation, but not the cause.
This is what the authors of The Bell Curve do
throughout their book.
Some social scientists have even found their
use of correlations completely misleading and
claim that the relationships are not as strong
as Murray and Herrnstein imply. Stephen Gould
points out that, "Herrnstein and Murray's
correlation coefficients are generally low
enough by themselves to inspire lack of
confidence. Although low figures are not
atypical for large social science surveys
involving many variables, most of Herrnstein
and Murray's correlations are very weak -often
in the 0.2 to 0.4 range. Now, 0.4 may sound
respectably strong, but - and this is the key
point- R squared is the square of the
correlation coefficent, and the square of a
number between zero and one is less than the
number itself, so a 0.4 correlation yields an
r-squared of only .16. In appendix 4, then one
discovers that the vast majority of the
conventional measure of R squared, excluded
from the main body of the test, are less than
0.1. These very low values of R squared expose
the true weakness, in any meaningful vernacular
sense, of nearly all the relationships that
form the meat of The Bell Curve." In other
words Herrnstein and Murray's conclusions are
not scientifically valid.
The Bell Curve also mistreats genetics.
According to Gregg Easterbrook, "the authors
treat inheritance from parents as if it could
be charted in straight lines. Smart parents A
beget smart kids B, etc. This is a common
blunder. Trait-inheritance charts more often
look like zigzags, as phenotypes bounce around
among offspring and may skip entire
generations. Two red-haired parents may have
two brunette children, each of whom in turn
have one red and one black-haired child and so
on. Herrnstein and Murray allude in a few
sentences to the common outcome that the
children of very bright parents may be only
somewhat above average in intellect, but
otherwise depict IQ as reliably passed through
generations in straight-line fashion. If IQ
does pass down generations in straight lines,
then the cause must be mainly the environment
families create, since genetic traits don't
express so predictably."
Murray and Herrnstein use all of this data to
prove that inherited "low intelligence is a
stronger precursor of poverty than low
socioeconomic background." They write, "putting
it all together, success and failure in the
American economy, and all that goes with it,
are increasingly a matter of the genes that
people inherit." This challenges conventional
wisdom that environment influences
intelligence. Income cannot directly determine
IQ, but income and socioeconomic status can
indicate the rearing environment that a child
is exposed too. The child of a stock broker or
lawyer is more likely to be exposed to book
learning than that of a laborer. Extensive
reading and calculating does effect one's
intelligence. For example, Malcom X was the top
student in his elementary school. When he got
older he moved to the streets and became a dope
pusher and pimp. Looking back, he estimated
that he was limited to a 1000 word vocabulary
when he lived on the streets. People are
either in an environment in which their mind is
pushed or are not. They use it or lose it, so
to speak
Like the slick photos in a porno magazine, many
readers of The Bell Curve will skip the bulk of
the text and turn immediately to the chapters
regarding ethnic and racial differences in IQ.
According to the authors, "nothing seems more
fearsome to many commentators than the
possibility that ethnic and race differences
have any genetic component at all. This belief
is a fundamental error. " They say that
"large human populations differ in many ways,
both cultural and biological." Herrnstein and
Murray concentrate their study on differences
between black and white IQ scores. The average
white IQ is 100 and the average black IQ is 85.
They claim that this difference is not due to
environment, but most probably genetic and
biological differences.
In order to disprove the idea that racism may
have contributed to blacks having a lower IQ
than whites they theorize that, if racism is
not a factor, blacks in Africa should not have
a higher IQ than blacks in America. They quote
a study by Richard Lynn and write that Lynn
"assembled eleven studies in his 1991 review of
the literature. He estimated the median black
African IQ to be 75." Since African IQs are
lower than Afro-American IQs they reason that
genetics instead of discrimination is the cause
of low IQs among African-Americans.
But, the Lynn study is outrageously flawed.
What Lynn does in his work is cite a paper by
Ken Owen, describing it as "the best single
study of the Negroid intelligence." "The study
compared white, Indian, and black pupils on the
Junior Aptitude test; no coloured pupils were
included. The mean 'Negroid' IQ in that study
according to Lynn was 69. But Owen did not in
fact assign IQs to any of the groups he tested;
he merely reported test score differences
between groups expressed in terms of standard
deviation units. The IQ figure was concocted
by Lynn out of those data...There is, as Owen
made clear, no reason to suppose that low
scores of blacks had much to do with genetics:
'the knowledge of English of the majority of
black testees was so poor that certain tests..
proved to be virtually unusable.' Further the
tests assumed that Zulu pupils were familiar
with electrical appliances, microscopes, and
'Western type lady's accessories....The tests
developer, John Raven, repeatedly insisted that
results on the Progressive Matrices tests
cannot be converted into IQs." If Lynn's data
is correct, then there would be as many black
Africans who are certifiably retarded as there
are African blacks with the same intelligence
as American whites. Murray and Herrnstein
acknowledge that they "benefited especially"
from Lynn's advice. Leon J. Kamih, commented
in Scientific American, "Lynn's distortions and
misrepresentations of the data constitute a
truly venomous racism, combined with scandalous
disregard for scientific objectivity...It is a
matter of shame and disgrace that two eminent
social scientists, fully aware of the
sensitivity of the issues they address, take
Lynn as their scientific tutor and uncritically
accept his survey's as research."
Herrnstein and Murray also cite studies by J.
Philippe Rushton. They write, "Rushton argues
that the differences in the average
intelligence test scores among East Asians,
blacks, and whites are not only primarily
genetic but part of a complex of racial
differences that includes such variables as
brain size, genital size, rate of sexual
maturation, length of menstrual cycle,
frequency of sexual intercourse, gamete
production, sexual hormone levels", and so on.
According to Rushton, blacks are not only
genetically inferior, but engage in
indiscriminate sex and have larger penises.
Rushton said, "People are always saying, 'Oh
you say whites are superior to blacks.' Even if
you take something like atheletic ability or
sexuality - not to reinforce stereotypes or
some such thing - but, you know, it's a trade
off: more brain or more penis. You can't have
everything." He claims that Nazi Germany's
military victories were due to the purity of
its gene pool. Rushton was censured by his
university when he went to a mall and paid 150
people to answer a survey with questions such
as how far they could ejaculate. One wonders
which attribute Rushton would lay claim to(or
Murray and Herrnstein for that matter). This
argument sounds suspiciously similar to Freud's
concept of "penis envy." Murray and Herrnstein
assure us that Rushton is "not a crackpot or
bigot" and that "there is nothing wrong with
Rushton's work in principle."
The Bell Curve ignores evidence that there is
little or no genetic differences between whites
and blacks. This evidence consists of
"impressive black IQ scores for poor black
children adopted into affluent and intellectual
homes; average IQ increases in some nations
since the Second World War equal to the entire
fifteen-point difference now separating blacks
and whites in America; and failure to find any
cognitive differences between two cohorts of
children born out of wedlock to German women,
reared in Germany as Germans, both fathered by
black and white soldiers." Also, black and
white IQ scores have been converging the last
few decades. If they continue to do so then in
a few decades there will no longer be a
difference between them. Genetics or biological
differences cannot account for such a rapid
convergence. Another problem with linking
intelligence differences to genes is
"intelligence is likely to be the result of
interaction of hundreds if not thousands of
different genes, each playing a tiny role in
mental development. This vast genetic
complexity underlying intelligence makes it
very unlikely that there is a simple
relationship between genes, IQ, and race."
The authors of The Bell Curve give their
readers the impression that they are boldly
charting new ground against cultural taboos.
However, there really isn't anything in their
book that hasn't been said before. They base
their work on people who have done research
before them. The casual reader who does not go
through the footnotes and analyze them really
will not get a grasp of what Herrnstein and
Murray are basing their conclusions on. Charles
Murray has pointed out that, "some of the
things we read to do this work, we literally
hide when we're on planes and trains. We're
furtively peering at this stuff." There is
good reason for this.
Herrnstein and Murray cite research financed by
an organization titled the Pioneer Fund
throughout their book. The Pioneer Fund is an
organization that sponsors research that will
preserve the "population quality" of the US.
The Pioneer Fund was founded in 1937 by
Wickliffe Draper, whose New England textile
fortune began the fund's endowment and helps to
finance it today. "About 5 million in the
fund's investment portfolio, together with
donations, trusts, and other revenues, produces
about 1 million in annual income, most of which
is distributed in relatively small pieces to
about 20 recipients a year." 13 researchers who
have recieved Pioneer Fund grants are cited in
Herrnstein and Murray's bibliography. The
Pioneer Fund also gives grants to political
action groups which are pursuing like-minded
goals such as the Coalition for Freedom, which
describes itself as "establishing a Jesse Helms
Institute for Foreign Policy and American
Studies."
The Pioneer Fund has a long history with the
eugenics movement. Eugenics was created by the
English in the late 19th century. "They used
it to try to control reproduction among the
Irish, who were thought to threaten Anglo-Saxon
society with their low intelligence and high
birth rate. In the early 20th century the idea
of genetic management caught on in the United
States, where Italians, Asians, and especially
Jews were identified as the oversexed and slow-
witted. The partnership of eugenics and
political power reached full flower with the
rises of Germany's Third Reich. For a time it
seemed that Adolf Hitler might accomplish his
goal of creating a world in which the
biologically worthy would breed prodigisouly
and the unworthy would be kept from
contaminating the gene pool."
Harry Laughlin, the first president of the
Pioneer Fund, "was a well known eugenicist who
in 1924 was instrumental in pushing through
legislation blocking US entry to Jews fleeing
pogroms in Russia. Before Congress, he
testified that IQ data proved that 83 percent
of Jewish immigrants were born feeble-minded
and therefore were a threat to the nation's
economy and genetic makeup. Laughlin
subsequently lobbied to keep these barriers in
place, successfully cutting off sanctuary for
Jews seeking refuge from the Third Riech."
In 1922 Laughlin wrote the model Eugenical
Sterilization Law, which was made law in 30
states and "resulted in the forced
sterilization of tens of thousands of people in
the United States. The law also served as the
basis for the Nazi program that resulted in the
forced sterilization of at least 2 million
people. For his contributions in eugenics,
Laughlin recieved an honorary degree from the
University of Heidleberg, in Germany, in 1936."
The most famous sterilization case in the
United States was Carrier Buck, who after
giving birth to a girl named Vivian in the
1920's was found to be of a mental age of nine
years old. "Since her mother scored lower
still, Carrie was subject to sterilization
under Virginia law that required it in cases of
second-generation mental deficiency." The
case went all of the way to the Supreme Court
where Laughlin appeared. "Without taking the
trouble even to meet Buck, Laughlin testified
that her feeblemindedness had been inherited.
In his view, she, belonged to 'the shiftless,
ignorant, and worthless class of anti-social
whites of the South.'" Laughlin's views
prevailed 8-1. "Three generations of
imbeciles are enough", said Justice Oliver
Wendell Holmes after siding with Laughlin.
"Vivian died of an intestinal disorder while
she was still in elementary school....her
teachers considered her 'very bright.'"
In 1937 Laughlin helped Wickliffe Draper found
the Pioneer Fund and became its first director.
The fund has promoted policies similar to those
of Nazi Germany. In its charter the Pioneer
Fund stated its purpose was to increase the
reproduction of citizens who "are deemed to be
descended predominately from white persons who
settled in the original thirteen states prior
to the adoption of the Constitution of the
United States." "To limit mixing with the
unworthy, Pioneer Fund grant recipients have
lobbied for restrictive immigration policies
and promoted various forms of segregation. To
rid the world of 'undesirables' - and their
offspring - some grant recipients have
suggested sterilization or even extermination."
The current treasurer of the Pioneer Fund is
John Trevor Jr. He has been a longtime leader
of the Coalition of Patriotic Societies "which
in 1942 was named in a US Justice Department
sedition indictment for pro-Nazi activities.
Trevor was the group's treasurer in 1962 when
it called for the release of all Nazi war
criminals and announced its support for South
Africa's 'well-reasoned racial policy.'"
One recipient of the Pioneer Fund's grants is
William Shockley, "who had won the Nobel Prize
in physics for his contribution to the
invention of the transistor" and proposed
paying people with low IQs to be sterilized.
The already mentioned, J. Philippe Rushton,
has recieved $770,733 from Pioneer Fund grants.
Richard Lynn recieved over a quarter of a
million. Arthur Jensen was granted over a
million dollars. Murray and Herrnstein wrote
that they "benefited especially" from the
advice of Rushton, Lynn, and Jensen. Another
figure connected to the Pioneer Fund is Thomas
Ellis. Ellis has been a longtime aid to
Senator Jesse Helms. He is one of Helms's best
friends and has served as his campaign manager
numerous times. Ellis served on the Pioneer
Funds board from 1973 to 1977. According to
Ellis the goal of school integration "is racial
intermarriage and the disappearance of the
Negro race by fusing into the white."
Probably one of the most important grant
recipients is Roger Pearson. He is probably
the most important racial eugenicist today. He
founded the Institute for the Study of Man
which is bankrolled by the Pioneer Fund.
Pearson also was an editor of a magazine
titled Western Destiny. It is financially
supported by Willis Carto's Liberty Lobby
organization which has been identified by the
Anti- Defamation League as being the largest
and most powerful anti-Semitic outfit in the
United States. Pearson has claimed to have
played a role in hiding Josef Mengele. Pearson
justifies his past relationship with Menegele,
who was a wanted Nazi war criminal, by saying,
"suppose you see a racial crisis coming in the
United States that nobody wants to talk about.
Everybody wants to pretend everybody is Bill
Cosby and Mary Tyler Moore. And the only guy
besides you who can see this is like a freight
train going 90 mph to a bridge that's out is
Josef Mengele. Do you join forces with him to
try to stop the train?" Pearson's answer to
this "crisis" is "if a nation with a more
advanced, more specialized or in any way
superior set of genes mingles with, instead of
exterminating, an inferior tribe, then it
commits racial suicide."
Roger Pearson publishes a racial-eugenicist
magazine called Mankind Quarterly. Five
articles published in it are cited by the
authors of The Bell Curve. 17 researchers
listed in the bibliography have contributed to
it. "Ten are present or former editors, or
members of its advisory board."
Pearson also is a member of an international
organization called the World Anti-Communist
League(WACL). Instead of fighting communism the
WACL's goal really is to support fascism.
Members of it have been Nazi war criminals,
Central American dictators, and some prominent
extreme right-wing Americans. One member is
Yaroslav Stesko, a Nazi collaborator who
presided over the murder of 7,000 Jews. Another
is Robert D'Aubuisson, who headed death squads
in El Salvador. Another is John Singlaub, who
was indicted in the Iran-Contra scandal. Jesse
Helms and current Presidential candidate Robert
Dornan are also members.
Murray and Herrnstein's practice of citing such
sources throughout their book is troubling, but
they cannot answer for all of the views of the
people they rely so much on. Yet they have
similar goals. Both try to bring eugenical
thinking back into public policy and to restore
scientific beliefs in biological and genetic
differences between the races. Both misuse
science to promote their own political agenda.
Murray and Herrnstein's real purpose of their
book is revealed in its final chapters: to
promote their own political agenda. Stephen
Gould wrote, "The Bell Curve gives a
sophisticated voice to a repressed and
illiberal sentiment: a belief that ruinous
divisions in society are sanctioned by nature
itself. For many readers the graphs and charts
of The Bell Curve confirm a dark suspicion: the
ills of welfare, poverty, and an underclass are
less matters of justice than biology...The Bell
Curve taps the frustration provoked by
relentless stories of sixteen-year-old mothers
pushing baby carriages while the state pays the
bills. Many Americans conclude these people
cannot figure out anything, except how to
reproduce and get welfare, and warrant nothing
"
Murray and Herrnstein argue that the time is
now to cut off aid to the poor and underclass
because it is wasted money. They say that it
is almost impossible to improve low IQ and that
"school is not a promising place to try to
raise intelligence or to reduce intellectual
differences." They advocate repealing all work
antidiscrimination laws in order to get a
"substantial" benefit to "productivity and
fairness." Curving back immigration is another
policy which they suggest. They advocate
eliminating welfare in order to slow down the
poor from continuing to breed and reproduce.
Murray and Herrnstein write, "The United States
has policies that inadvertently social-engineer
who has babies, and it is encouraging the wrong
women....We urge generally that these policies,
represented by the extensive cash and services
for low-income women who have babies, be ended
" They suggest that by cutting off aid to
poor neighborhoods the government could help
foster their "vitality".
Murray and Herrnstein also envision a dark
future for America. They claim that IQ in
America is dangerously dropping due to genetic
reasons: the higher reproduction rates of the
less intelligent. They say that the cognitive
elite will merge with the economic elite and
become further isolated from the people at the
bottom end of the cognitive ability curve and
that the people at the bottom will experience
"a deteriorating quality of life."
"People in the bottom quartile of intelligence
are becoming not just increasingly expendable
in economic terms; they will sometime in the
not-too distant future become a net drag. In
economic terms and barring a profound change in
the direction for our society, many people will
be unable to perform that function so basic to
human dignity: putting more into the world than
they take out," they write. What will the
result of this be? According to The Bell
Curve, "social budgets and measure for social
control will become more centralized. The
growing numbers of illegitimate children born
to poor women will have multiplier effects on
social welfare budgets - directly through
increased indirect costs generated in the
educational and law enforcement systems. As
states become overwhelmed, the current cost
sharing between the states and federal
government will shift toward the federal
budget. The mounting costs will also generate
intense political pressure on Washington to do
something. Unable to bring itself to do away
with the welfare edifice -for by that time it
will be assumed that social chaos will follow
any radical cutback - the government will
continue to try to engineer behavior through
new programs and regulations. As time goes on
and hostility toward the welfare-dependent
increases, these policies are likely to become
authoritarian and rely increasingly on
custodial care. Racism will reemerge in a new
and more virulent form." They predict the
coming of the "custodial state." By this they
"have in mind a high-tech and more lavish
version of the Indian reservation for some
substantial minority of the nation's
population, while the rest of America tries to
go about its business. In its less benign
forms, the solutions will become more and more
totalitarian. Benign or otherwise, 'going
about its business' in the old sense will not
be possible. It is difficult to imagine the
United States preserving its heritage of
individualism, equal rights before the law,
free people running their own lives, once it is
accepted that a significant part of the
population must be made permanent wards of the
states." Murray and Herrnstein warn us that
they "fear that a new kind of conservatism is
becoming the dominant ideology of the affluent
- not in the social tradition of an Edmund
Burke or in the economic tradition of an Adam
Smith but 'conservatism' along Latin American
lines, where to be conservative has often meant
doing whatever is necessary to preserve the
mansions on the hills from the menace of the
slums below."
Despite all of their deception, Herrnstein and
Murray are right about some things, but for the
wrong reasons. We do need to do something
about welfare. In some instances, it does
encourage illigitemacy. But, we shouldn't
simply abolish welfare to discourage the
breeding of people believed to be genetically
inferior. We should reform welfare so that it
does what was intended of it. Herrnstein and
Murray are right to point out that our society
is becoming more and more divided. They claim
that this is because that less intelligent
people are breeding more than the "cognitive
elite." Our society is not becoming more
polarized because of genetics, but because of
rapid changes in our nation and economy.
Up until the collapse of the Soviet Union most
Americans were united with a common cause. It
may have been fighting for independence in the
1700's, moving west, the Civil War, WWII, and
for the last 40 or so years the Cold War. Now
with the end of the Cold War there is no longer
a force or cause that unites all Americans.
The wealthy have little in common with the poor
and vice versa.
Rapid changes in the economy are further
polarizing and dividing society. Corporations
are becoming more global and are identifying
less with America. Indeed, it may be the end
of the American corporation. Right now, Mazda
manufactures more cars in the United States
than Ford. Which company is American? Does it
matter? The job market is rapidly changing.
Low technology industrial jobs are moving out
of the country and are finding cheaper labor.
They are being replaced by more high tech and
analytical jobs. Jobs where you have to think
and do more than simply obey a boss. We must
educate our young for these type of jobs. It
will take a restructured educational system to
do this. Counting out large segments of the
population, like Herrnstein and Murray advocate
would be disastrous.
Our country is at a crossroads. Will we be
able to adapt to these new changes? If not,
then the results may be our nation transforming
into a nightmare state as predicted by The Bell
Curve.
Murray and Herrnstein advocate turning national
policy the wrong direction. They confuse the
lack of opportunity a person has with the
inability of that person to achieve. Today, we
have a whole chorus of voices who seem to agree
with them. Their sense of community extends to
only people who are like themselves and they
dismiss the potentional of people who are
different from them. The Bell Curve attempts
to give these people a voice of science. It
tries to persuade us to forget about the
principles our country was founded on. It
tells us that our genes guide us to a life of
fulfillment or desolation and that we can do
very little to change our destiny. Instead of
being persuaded by them to give up, we must
work to create a society in which everyone has
an equal opportunity. We have too many minds
that are stuck in poverty, violence, or poor
nutrition. According to Herrnstein and Murray
government is incapable of making a difference
and shouldn't even try. It is true, that
government cannot manipulate a person's genes,
but a moral government can, and must, pursue
policies that treat everyone as a resource.
Programs that aid those in poverty, that help
people with drug problems, that keep our cities
safe, and that train workers for new jobs.
This is how a moral government should operate.
It shouldn't just create authoritarian
reservations for the poor or cut taxes for the
wealthy. Which way will we go? It will be
interesting to see the future. It will be as
good as we make it.
Carey, John, "Clever Arguments, Atrocious
Science", Business Week: Nov. 7, 1994.
Murray, Charles, and Richard Herrnstein.
The Bell Curve. New York, NY: The Free Press,
1994: p.91,
Carey, John.
Allman, William, "Why IQ isn't destiny,"
US News and World Report: Oct. 24,1994.
Seligman, Daniel, "Trashing the Bell
Curve." The National Review: Dec. 5, 1994.
Murray and Herrnstein p.p.22-23.
Murray and Herrnstein p.22.
Gould, Stephen Jay, "Curveball", The New
Yorker: Nov. 28, 1994.
Allman, William.
Allman, William.
Allman, William.
Kamih, Leon J., "Behind the Curve,"
Scientific American: Feb. 1995.
Carey, John.
Cole, K.C., "Statistic Can Throw Us a
Curve," The Los Angeles Times: Jan. 4, 1995.
Cole, K.C.
Gould, Stephen.
Easterbrook, Greg., "The Case Against
The Bell Curve", The Washington Monthy: Dec.,
1994.
Murray and Herrnsetin, p.127.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.91.
Nisbett, Richard., "Blue Genes," The New
Republic: Oct. 31, 1994.
Murray and Herrnsetin, p.270.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.269.
Murray and Herrnstein, p. 289.
Kamih, Leon J.
Kamih, Leon J.
Murray and Herrnstein, p. xxv.
Kamih, Leon J.
Murray and Herrnstein, p. 642.
Miller, Adam, "Professor's of Hate," Rolling
Stone: Oct. 20, 1994.
Miller, Adam.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.643.
Easterbrook, Gregg.
Allman, William.
Lane, Chris, "Tainted Sources," The New
York Review of Books: Dec. 1, 1994.
Carey, John, "Behind the Bell Curve,"
Business Week: Nov. 7, 1994.
Miller, Adam.
Sedgwick, John, "The Mentality Bunker,"
GQ: Nov. 1994.
Miller, Adam.
Miller, Adam.
Miller, Adam.
Sedgwick, John.
Sedgwick, John.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.5.
Sedgwick, John.
Sedgwick, John.
Miller, Adam.
Miller, Adam.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.10.
Miller, Adam.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.xxv.
Miller, Adam.
Lane, Charles.
Miller, Adam.
Miller, Adam.
Lane, Charles.
Anderson, Scott, and Jon Anderson, Inside
the League, New York, NY: Dodd, Mead & Company:
1986.
Gould, Stephen.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.414.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.480
Murray and Herrnstein, p.548.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.540.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.509.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.520.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.525.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.526.
Murray and Herrnstein, p.518.
End of forwarded article.
Jai Maharaj
Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer
Latest world news here:
http://www.flex.com/~jai
Om Shanti
Raja V
Hmm... thought all the Tam Brams were in San Jose already......
Madurai Veeran <Madurai...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
gga...@worldnet.att.net
Raja V wrote:
>
> Hmm... thought all the Tam Brams were in San Jose already......
Do not know about that; however, I would dearly like to help at least
the scrawny, skinny, ill-fed ones to resettle, say in Gujarat or
Maharashtra or MP! Obviously, I cannot afford this by myself. A
collective effort of Bs outside India and TN might just do it! One
cannot live in a poisoned well (hell, as some friends have called it! I
do not know. I left way, way back, when rural TN was a friendly,
extremely hospitable, affordable heaven on earth. I used to literally
die waiting to go there from Kerala on every vacation! None of my
relatives were rich and most fit the image I describe above!), at least
not for ever! This is not a joke! I am quite serious about this! How
about a fund of some kind?
As for those left behind, I sincerely wish them all prosperity. Maybe
this move will help TN kids just FORGET, if not forgive the TN Brahmins
and concentrate on building a more just and prosperous society. Here, I
KNOW I am dreaming! Do Bs represent the caste problem of TN? ALL of
them, including the newborns and yet to be borns? Really? Honestly? Ha,
Ha, Ho, Ho, He, He!!!! But then, living in a fool's paradise,
Fantasyland is not a crime, not yet! TN politicians have wildly
succeeded in creating and maintaining one for the last 30 years! I am a
Kamaraj/Kakkanji kid! Most of you were probably not born then!! Those
perum thalaivars knew how to nourish the week, without hatred for anyone
else! What a great man! When will there be another like them!?
- ganesh
Vivek A Rajan
gga...@worldnet.att.net wrote in message
<6j1c03$f...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>...
>Raja V wrote:
>>
>> Hmm... thought all the Tam Brams were in San Jose already......
>
>relatives were rich and most fit the image I describe above!), at least
>not for ever! This is not a joke! I am quite serious about this! How
>about a fund of some kind?
I am replying to this because you are suggesting action.
Picture this, "Suresh is a young non-B man from a small town, he and his
other friends attend a wedding and put pieces of fish a dish, and serve it
to a B priest. The priest eats the dish. Then Suresh and his friends tell
him,"What you just ate was meen kolambu", the priest throws up, and all roar
in laughter as he runs out of the wedding hall with his panchagam vesti
coming loose" - I cant remeber the movie but the priest was usilaimani and
the hero was Pakkiaraj or Satyaraj.
Now, you and I may think this is tasteless, but non-B crowds in the theaters
just go crazy with laughter. This example, trivial as it may sound carries a
lot of meaning. To the overwhelming majority of non-Bs, the priests plight
was _more_funny_than_sorry. This is exactly the state of Tamil civilization
now. Before you jump on me, this is not the same as cybill sheperd giving
gin&tonic to a non-drinking aunt and watching the fun. Non drinkers,
veggies,hookers, golf players are non-natural groupings. If some of you
cannot appreciate the difference dont bother to read the rest of this.
The above example is not an isolated example. You can see plenty of B
bashing movies. The Bs are completely helpless in the whirlpool of ignorant
people in TN. Imagine the same scene with a muslim or thevar. All hell would
break loose. It is an open world today. We have to expose what is really
going on in TN, to the west. We have to show the mass emigration of Brahmins
from the villages and smaller towns. The west has to know how the hopes of
poor kids are dashed to the ground by a cruel system. We have to show who
the true benefeciaries of the hate system are... urban
nadar,mudaliar,thevar etc.. We have to show the west the movie clips, the
'bramin-snake' speeches, the dk graffiti, we have to document the kudumi and
poonol cutting incidents, we have to show how the Bs have been politically
isolated for 40 years.
The entire dravidian ideology (ev ramsamy) is based around a form of
"eliminationist anti-brahminsm" (just like the eliminationist anti-semitism
proposed by Daniel Goldhagen in his new book ). What evr says is, 'brahmins
have to change and give up sanskrit, superstitions like yagnas, kudumi,
poolul, and intermarry unitl he is brahmin no more". There is no place for a
b in evrs vision of TN (if he had any). The west HAS to know these things.
We should keep in mind that it is not just the reservation system that is
anti-brahmin. It is just a part of a daily humiliation routine Bs endure. Bs
are constantly ridiculed for begin vegetarian, wearing their hair in locks,
thiruman, vibothi, etc. Everyday existance is an ordeal if you are not
living in a B area, like Tnagar,Alwarpet, Mylapore etc, Movies and TV dont
help either. Every movie has some B hate message. Mostly rdicule, Pakkiaraj,
Rajini, Satyaraj, etc are all great stars who openly make fun of Bs in
movies, the madisaar, kudumi, are made fun of everyday. In TN basic traits
of civilization are discredited. Ability, competence, interest, fairness
dont matter anymore. On my last visit I met some poor Brahmin kids, it is
painful to see their cynicism and helplessness.
IMHO, we have to conduct a detailed survey and study of the B demographic
shift and what factors led to this hatred. We have to conduct a survey of
the true results of the reservation. We have to find out what happens to the
poor B kids who cannot go anywhere. What % of the population supports this
system, etc. What % of Bs are left in TN. Where do they live. We know that
the TN state govt will never fund this kind of study. The only way is to get
BBC/CNN assignment / other universities to fund this kind of study. I wrote
email to them, but I wish I had more time to pursue them and prepare a
prelim report .
Vivek A Rajan
Parthasarati Dileepan
Vivek A Rajan wrote in message <6j5ekn$3...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
I understand your frustration, but...
[2] The hatred against Brahmins is not as wide spread as you
have suggested. Just as recently as this past summer I traveled
all over TN. My observation is that an orthodox Brahmin true to
his way of life is still respected. There may be some cat calls
from some overeager youngsters, but the general public
still respects them, movie jokes not withstanding.
[1] Don't expect the west to care. The modern Brahmin who
has abandoned the old ways must learn reality and live
in harmony with others. Talk of separate homeland is
just foolish wishful thinking that would only irritate the
neighbors among whom the TN Brahmins will have to
make a living. Happily, the hatred that Sri. EVR and his
DK men taught is not widely practiced in TN.
-- Dileepan
S. Prabaharan
In soc.culture.tamil Vivek A Rajan <vivek...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: help either. Every movie has some B hate message. Mostly rdicule, Pakkiaraj,
: Rajini, Satyaraj, etc are all great stars who openly make fun of Bs in
: movies, the madisaar, kudumi, are made fun of everyday. In TN basic traits
: of civilization are discredited. Ability, competence, interest, fairness
: dont matter anymore. On my last visit I met some poor Brahmin kids, it is
: painful to see their cynicism and helplessness.
I thought Rajini and Bagyaraj married brahmins! I don't want sound
heartless, but do you think American kids won't make fun of people
who don't look and dress like them? You are in for a deep shock.
They seggregate very quickly in schools. The friends of ASian
kids are mainly other Asians or blacks. Of course, there are exceptions.
At least the Indian kids seem to forget their castes here. The Indians
are called dotheads here. In my wife's office, they sometime make jokes
about Indians thinking it won't offend her since she is a Sri Lankan!!
One joke that went around was like this: What is the time in India now?
Ans: Seven eleven on the dot. If you are new to the country, let me
explain. Indians (mainly Gujaratis) own a lot of seven eleven (convenient
stores)stores in the northeast. Dot of course you know. And you are
going to appeal to the west. Good luck. The solution has to come from
within, mainly through better understanding among all castes.
SP
: Vivek A Rajan
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Well said. Studying history has the same problems. Forget research in
anthropology or modern microbiology. Those who study history will either
not want to repeat it or want to avenge the treatment meted out to their
ancestors by teh barbarians(almost all will fit into this category; take
your pick).
That said... I do agree with Mr.Veeran's spirit of his comments on the
potential of such research. Only like in the case of history we can't do
much. And to be likened with Caucasians ;-) or Africans is neither
high/low unless one's already high smoking something ;-)
Regards, --Ramakrishna.
Parthasarati Dileepan
(dile...@cdc.net) wrote:
: Madurai Veeran wrote in message <6ifl84$9ub$1...@nnrp3.snfc21.pbi.net>...
: >
: >Let' ask ourselves a few questions.
: >
: >What are these scientists trying to accomplish?
: >
: >Are they trying to justify casteism through their
: >half-baked (in all probablities) analysis of some
: >nucleotides? Modern biology is all too well known for
: >mischievous misinterpretations.
: >
: >Or, are they trying to serve their foreign masters to
: >help extend their theories of racism to India and
: >exacerbate issues of casteism with racism?
: I agree, but not in the way you are thinking. Consider the following:
: nob...@replay.com wrote in message <6i9t6q$3...@drn.newsguy.com>...
: >Taken from DC at www.deccan.com
: >===============================
: >It’s all in the genes; even the caste system. High caste
: >Brahmins have DNA with greater similarities to those of
: >Caucasians, while lower caste DNA shows similarities
: >to those of African tribes, says a group of
: It seems this study that Mr. Nobody quotes finds similarities
: between Brahmins and Caucasians. Leaving the validity of
: this aside, why should this exacerbate issues of "casteism
: with racism" unless one thinks being Caucasian is "superior"
ke...@jps.net
An interesting article that deals with this subject in terms of dental
anthropology can be found on the Net. Here is an excerpt:
---begin forwarded message---
"What the Metric Traits Say"
http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~grobbins/hemphill.html
[...]
Intergroup similarity was compared using data collected by Bhasin, et al.
(1985) for the Bodhs, Khatris, Jats, Ahirs, U.P. Brahmins, Dangis, Kunbis,
Varlis, Bengali Brahmins, and Tamil Brahmins. To reduce interobserver error,
the measurements were taken again from only the left side as Bhasin, et al.
(1985) had done. The Bhils and Garasias were again the closest two groups,
then the Rajputs. Similarity to the pan-Indian groups appeared to be
correlated with geographic proximity.
[...]
The three Gujarati groups showed the most resemblance to each other
and the next closely related category was that of geographically proximal
groups in Maharashtra and Haryana. Tribal Bhils showed more similarity to
proximal caste groups than to other tribals suggesting long intermixing and
Hinduization. The Brahmin groups were also distant from each other except for
neighboring Uttar Pradesh and Tamil Nadu groups. The Bodhs and Varlis
presented an exception to the general pattern. These two tribal
groups are spatially distant but show evidence of relatedness.
Three results of this analysis were surprising to Hemphill and Lukacs:
Tamil Nadu Brahmins (high caste, southern India) clustered close to the Bodhs
(tribal group, north- western India), the Varlis (another tribe from
northwestern India) clustered close to Khatris and Uttar Pradesh Brahmins (two
high status castes from northern India), and the Dangis (farmers from
northeastern India) were close to Bengali Brahmins (high status
caste also from northeastern India).
---
Thus, brahmins often showed greater distance with each other than with other
groups. In many cases, brahmins clustered closest with tribal groups.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
pira...@hotmail.com
In article <6j5m5q$9...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net>,
S. Prabaharan <ha...@IDT.NET> wrote:
>
> I thought Rajini and Bagyaraj married brahmins!
Well, the hatred and stereotyping is there for all to see. But Prabaharan
chooses to ignore that and point out something else.
As for their personal lives, the parties themselves (Pakkiaraj etc.) should
explain this contradiction, not the people who point out the hatred.
Contradictions are, after all, nothing new to the anti-brahmin movement
(a large topic in its own right.)
And, we are talking about massive stereotyping in the media, not in personal
interactions. There are few parallels in American media to the gross
stereotyping of Brahmins that goes on in Tamil Nadu.
P. I. Ramanan
Gopala Ganesh
pira...@hotmail.com wrote:
> interactions. There are few parallels in American media to the gross
> stereotyping of Brahmins that goes on in Tamil Nadu.
>
because there are anti-defamation laws. The jewish community even has
an organization that fights such cases (B'nai Brith? ADL?). Some of the
stuff carried on TN will easily pass the defamation test! (however, if
cases are brought, goonda brigades could well eliminate everything,
plaintiff, evidence etc, before any case! That is a different matter!)
- ganesh
S. Prabaharan
m>:
Organization: IDT Internet Services
Distribution:
In soc.culture.tamil pira...@hotmail.com wrote:
: Well, the hatred and stereotyping is there for all to see. But Prabaharan
: chooses to ignore that and point out something else.
It is funny that a guy who uses a caste name to post is very sensitive
to caste! Anyway, can you explain what hatred and stereotyping is
portrayed in the movies? Does Mani Ratnam (a brahmin) stereotyppe
others when he makes "kuchi kuchi rakkamma" or another song in in
Mownaragam? What is wrong with people dancing in madisar? Why is
it any different from veshti, shorts, swimming dress, kurathi dress
or anything else? If anything, people have resepect for the brahmins
who live a disciplined life on the "screen". The only disagreement is
when people practice untouchability. AS for feeding vegetarians with
nonveg food, we have done those pranks in school. They were
nonbrahmin vegetarians. What is sterotyping about that? Of course,
we grow up with time but some movie makers don't.
SP
: P. I. Ramanan
P.G.Gopal
You would not think so, looking at the palpable hate emanated by the
Dravida Veerans on the net.
Kumar Soundrapandian
S. Prabaharan wrote:
> It is funny that a guy who uses a caste name to post is very sensitive
> to caste!
I don't see anything funny. If people tend to identify names to certain
caste, is that his fault? Secondly, what choice he had in selecting his
name?
- Kumar
> SP
> : P. I. Ramanan
gan...@cobaf.unt.edu
> heartless, but do you think American kids won't make fun of people
> who don't look and dress like them? You are in for a deep shock.
but you do sound, Prabaharan! I have been quite amazed by the attitude of you
and other Sri Lankan Tamils towards TN Bs. I certainly agree that there are
some obnoxious individuals in any group; however, stereotyping is so unfair!
Also, aren't the SL Tamils protesting lack of economic opportunities and
clamoring for more fair system over there? Isn't the basis for discrimination
in SL the historical fact that the minority enjoyed the lion's share of
government jobs and professional educational opportunities? (never mind that
they competitively earned it!). Speaking for myself, I am only against using
"backward" as a fake label by someone who does not deserve to: filthy rich
landowner, industrialist etc. The opportunity should definitely go to the
Dalit or laborer's child, if that child exhibits reasonably good performance.
I think it is not in the interest of society to grant admission to someone
with 35% marks and deny it to a B primary school teacher's child with 90%,
simply because that child is a B. Some may say that does not happen. If yes,
I stand corrected. I left TN a long time ago! God bless TN and lead it to
prosperity!! - ganesh
- ganesh
S. Prabaharan
> <35578241...@mci2000.com>:
Organization: IDT Internet Services
Distribution:
In soc.culture.tamil Kumar Soundrapandian <so...@mci2000.com> wrote:
: S. Prabaharan wrote:
: > It is funny that a guy who uses a caste name to post is very sensitive
: > to caste!
: I don't see anything funny. If people tend to identify names to certain
: caste, is that his fault? Secondly, what choice he had in selecting his
: name?
I think you misunderstood my comment. I was referring to the address
he was using (i.e., piramanan@hotmail..), not this real name.
SP
: - Kumar
: > SP
: > : P. I. Ramanan
Kumar Soundrapandian
S. Prabaharan wrote:
> : > It is funny that a guy who uses a caste name to post is very sensitive
> : > to caste!
>
> : I don't see anything funny. If people tend to identify names to certain
> : caste, is that his fault? Secondly, what choice he had in selecting his
> : name?
>
> I think you misunderstood my comment. I was referring to the address
> he was using (i.e., piramanan@hotmail..), not this real name.
Yes, you're right.
- Kumar
S. Prabaharan
m>:
Organization: IDT Internet Services
Distribution:
In soc.culture.tamil gan...@cobaf.unt.edu wrote:
: but you do sound, Prabaharan! I have been quite amazed by the attitude of you
: and other Sri Lankan Tamils towards TN Bs. I certainly agree that there are
: some obnoxious individuals in any group; however, stereotyping is so unfair!
: Also, aren't the SL Tamils protesting lack of economic opportunities and
: clamoring for more fair system over there? Isn't the basis for discrimination
If my comments on reservation sound heartless, I can't help it.
You can always respond to my comments and say why I am wrong.
I haven't seen any response to my comments to completely negate
my views on reservation. The war in SriLanka is not about reservation.
It is about the security and respect of Tamils in SriLanka. Tamils
didn't violently protest the quota system. It is the riots against
Tamils in 1983 that pushed the youths to take up arms in large
numbers.
If you are amazed by the attitude of Sl Tamils towards TN brahmins,
that is the result of the majority of brahmin writers in the net
and the media villifying and denigrating the Tamils' struggle.
SP
: - ganesh
pira...@hotmail.com
From: S. Prabaharan <ha...@IDT.NET>
> It is funny that a guy who uses a caste name to post is very sensitive
> to caste!
I guess one sees what one wants to... I've indicated my name, but
you've chosen to see something else. Not surprising, since you've
been obsessed with a particular caste for the last few years.
By the way, do you find the name 'E. V. Ramaswami Naicker' equally
amusing? After all he claimed to "fight against caste"!
P. I. Ramanan