Illayaraja vs A R Rehman
Kannan Sundar
>In article <4dh027$a...@daily-planet.nodak.edu>,
>+*| R A M |*+ <pitc...@plains.nodak.edu> wrote:
>>: ps. Present date ARRahman probably better than Ilaiyaraja. :))
>
>> Nice joke:-)
>
>> murugan
>
> This present date comparisons are bull-shit. they don't make any sense.
> look at the achievements of a person in his/her era.
>
> It's like the other thread over Kumar Shanu and Kishore Kumar. If ever
> Kumar Shanu makes more money than Kishore Kumar and has numerically more
> hits that KK, it is impossible for him to be in KK's shoes.
>
> The above statement is as attrocious as
> "Present date Kumar Shanu is better than KK"
> only bcos KK is no more with us ;-)
>
> A. R. Rahman is good. I like his music; but please don't compare him with
> "the maestro".
>
> - shailesh phansalkar.
> (Ilaiyaraja Fan)
>
>
>--
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was an atheist, until I discovered, I was GOD.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right. People make a big mistake by comparing Ilaiyaraja with
AR Rahman. It is true Rahman follows a different pattern in his music and
sounds more hindustani with arabic mix (which of course attracts North
Indians) than Karnatic. But let us analyze what Ilaiyaraja has done for
nearly 2 Decade or so in south indian music world.
As far Tamil music is concerned, we could say he is the CONSTITUTION
Writer itself. All the music directors including Rahman follows more or
less the same style in their music, except using Electronic Instruments
rather than original.
He brought in music to reach villages (we say patti, thoti in Tamil). He
made people to feel and realize the music since mid 1970's. He mixed
NATIVITY in his music and made music mix with people. One example of
nativity, we could say is in Ezhapattu. This is a kind of song, people in
villages used to sing, while doing farming or so. He gave a different
dimension to these songs and composed these songs in most of
Bharathiraja's films. Because of his music, Hindi music which was at its
peak in TN during 1970's had slowly faded and kept a low profile until
1990's.
Another important aspect of Ilayaraja, is his CREATIVITY. We can't find
the shadow of his music from one song to another. This is virtually
impossible for any Music Director, to keep away from his own raga's
composed even 10 or 20 years back (or to track his compositions). Of
course, he did copied very few western music like Darling Darling in
Priya. But we could say, he copied just 1 % of his music and 99% was his
own creations. Also, it is virtually impossible for any music director to
compose songs and give mega hits successively. While Rahman or Anu Malik
could compose maximum for 10 films a year, there was a time Ilayaraja
composed about 50-75 films a year. This itself, showed the power of
Ilayaraja and makes him uncomparable with rest of the MDs.
When we analyze, the music of Ilayaraja itself, we could see he gave
more importance to melody of the song than music itself. His favorite
instruments are flute, violin and guitar. The way, he uses flute to aid
the rhythm in his music, is his unique style. Synchronized violins
(usually used in films during sentimental and flashbacks scenes) is his
another important masterpiece, that got him a chance for composing the
symphony in London. Being a guitarist, he played well with lead and base
guitars, in most of his songs. Nevertheless, we should not say Ilayaraja
uses only original instruments. He is an excellent user of Electronic
Keyboards and mixed Synthesized music extensively in many films like
Priya, Punakai Mannan, Nenaivellam Nithya, Mavunaragham, Anjali etc.
While, speaking of Rahman, he gives more importance to music and
recording rather than melody. Being an excellent composer in Keyboard,
right from his career in Advertising, he uses extensive Electronic and
Synthesized music more than original music. He gives lot of importance to
recording (digital) and uses more techniques and tracks than any MD in
India. The way he mixes karnatic, hindustani and arabic filled with
Electronic music, makes people feel different in his music. He is giving
a good music, but he feels immatured in some of his songs. The melody of
songs goes away when he tries to mix more and more music to his songs. It
is hard to day, whether he can achieve something and show that kind of
creativity in music like Ilayaraja. At his present juncture, he could be
considered as bridge to Western Music but could never be compared to
Ilayaraja.
Ilayaraja has achieved enough and ruled the Tamil Film Music world for
more than 2 decades. There could be only one Ilayaraja and we are not
going to get another Ilayaraja and even if we get, we will not find the
original flavor that Ilayaraja has delivered to the Tamil Film Music
World.
Kannan Sundar
Venkatesh Krishnaswamy
>You are right. People make a big mistake by comparing Ilaiyaraja with
>AR Rahman.
I think the comparisons are inevitable. Rehman brought a musical
era in Tamil music to an abrupt end in much the same way Illaiyaraja
"retired" M.S. Viswanathan in the late 70's. And the debates are
oddly familiar with the faithful MSV fans indignant at the thought
that the upstart could be mentioned in the same breath as the
"king". But genius cannot be denied. Illaiyaraja (then) and Rehman (now)
had (have) the unique musical ability to simultaneously
resonate with and shape contemporary musical sensibilities.
In time Rehman's impact will be universally acknowledged
to be the equal of Illaiyaraja's.
>It is true Rahman follows a different pattern in his music
No argument there!
>and sounds more hindustani with arabic mix (which of course attracts North
>Indians) than Karnatic.
Not true. Rehman (like Illaiyaraja in his time) is truly eclectic.
He has incorporated elements of Carnatic, Hindustani, folk music,
Jazz, Rock and contemporary western styles in a manner that
both preserves the authenticity of the original style yet
creates new idioms. Listen to songs in Duet (Mettu Podu), Gentleman
(En veetu Thotathil), Roja (Pudu Vellai Mazhai) etc. and you
will notice the strong carnatic influence. Of course (like Illaiyaraja)
he takes many many liberties with the ragas (which undoubtedly grate
on purist sensibilities) but then he makes no pretense of being
a carnatic musician. He is a "fusion" artist and he does that with
unequaled panache.
>But let us analyze what Ilaiyaraja has done for
>nearly 2 Decade or so in south indian music world.
>As far Tamil music is concerned, we could say he is the CONSTITUTION
>Writer itself.
Rehman is significantly amending and adding articles to that
constitution. Just look at the number of Rehman wanna-bes out
there.
>Another important aspect of Ilayaraja, is his CREATIVITY. We can't find
>the shadow of his music from one song to another. This is virtually
>impossible for any Music Director, to keep away from his own raga's
>composed even 10 or 20 years back (or to track his compositions).
I don't get this. Illaiyaraja has a VERY distinct and unmistakable
style as does Rehman. By definition, this means that songs end up
casting shadows over one another. That is his trademark, what makes
him unique.
>Of course, he did copied very few western music like Darling Darling in
>Priya.
Illaiyaraja copy music? Nah. He didn't need to. Anand-Milind copy,
Anu Malik copies, Nadeem-Shravan copy. Not Illaiyaraja. Not Rehman.
No composer exists in a vaccum, they are influenced by what they
listen to. Illaiyaraja and Rehman are gifted enough to have mastered
several styles so that when they compose in that style it sounds
authentic. It sounds like a copy only to listeners who are not
sophisticated enough to understand this concept. No offence intended
but that's how it is.
>While Rahman or Anu Malik could compose maximum for 10 films a year,
>there was a time Ilayaraja composed about 50-75 films a year.
>This itself, showed the power of Ilayaraja and makes him uncomparable
>with rest of the MDs.
I wish Illaiyaraja had been as smart as Rehman in this regard and
not mistaken profilicity (?!) for quality. There is so much mediocrity
there that he could have avoided. Imagine if he could have extended
himself as he did in "How to name it" and "Nothing but the wind"
in every song. It takes time to produce great stuff like that, a fact
that Rehman seems to have grasped very early in his career.
>When we analyze, the music of Ilayaraja itself, we could see he gave
>more importance to melody of the song than music itself.
Funny, but I think it is the opposite. Forget Rehman for now and put
yourself back 10-15 years ago. Compare Illaiyaraja to MSV. MSV had
much richer, sweeter melodies but Illaiyaraja blew him away with
his command over arrangements. In many songs, in fact, it seems
like the elaborate orchestration is the piece de resistance
and the "melody" merely an irritating but necessary confinement
imposed by the well-worn film song structure to which Illaiyaraja
faithfully adheres. Not to say he is not a "melodious" composer --
he can churn out a catchy tune as well as the best of them but
the Illaiyaraja music "revolution" was really all about intricate
musical arrangements. I think Rehman has restored the importance
of melody and at the same time is creating his own revolution of
orchestration. He is also much more willing to defy the
structural tyranny of the (pallavi-interlude-stanza)x2 formula.
>While, speaking of Rahman.... Being an excellent composer in Keyboard,
>right from his career in Advertising, he uses extensive Electronic and
>Synthesized music more than original music.
By original music, I presume you mean acoustic instruments. I differ
with the point made here. He is clearly a master of the
synthesizer but what particularly strikes me is his innovative
and "original" use of acoustic instruments. Rather than strip
the flute, guitar, violin, tabla, harmonium, veena or mridangam
of their individuality by burying their tones in layers of orchestra,
he brings these out to the fore-front, almost in your face, and lets
them flaunt their pure voices on center stage. He is the ultimate
minimalist genius who demands that each tone and melody be distinct and
unmistakably heard without interference. Synth pads, bells and
other assorted other supporting sounds merely flavor the mix to highlight
the dominant tone -- they never overwhelm it. Illaiyaraja, on the
other hand, is an ensemble man whose arrangements are
dedicated to the proposition that the whole is greater than
the sum of its parts. The "khitchidi" approach, if you will,
as opposed to Rehman's "salads".
> He gives lot of importance to
>recording (digital) and uses more techniques and tracks than any MD in
>India. The way he mixes karnatic, hindustani and arabic filled with
>Electronic music, makes people feel different in his music.
Very true.
> but he feels immatured in some of his songs.
Totally differ here. Rehman is way ahead of his time. It is the mass
audience that is "immatured" and has yet to catch up with him. Yet
they resonate with him enough to have crowned him king for the moment.
>It is hard to day, whether he can achieve something and show that kind of
>creativity in music like Ilayaraja.
He already has. When people wake up to the full scope of what he
has accomplished so far, his greatness will not be in question.
>Ilayaraja has achieved enough and ruled the Tamil Film Music world for
>more than 2 decades. There could be only one Ilayaraja and we are not
>going to get another Ilayaraja and even if we get, we will not find the
>original flavor that Ilayaraja has delivered to the Tamil Film Music
>World.
>Kannan Sundar
It is only a matter of time before people say the same about Rehman
(some enlightened souls are already saying it!). He has done enough
to deserve it.
Venky Krishnaswamy
Krishna Sivaramapuram
Kannan Sundar <KannanX...@ccm2.hf.intel.com> wrote:
>
>
>You are right. People make a big mistake by comparing Ilaiyaraja with
>AR Rahman. It is true Rahman follows a different pattern in his music and
>sounds more hindustani with arabic mix (which of course attracts North
Hmmmm..... Very wrong notion!!!! Just because some of his songs had an
arabic mix due to the scenes involved doen't mean he composes all his
songs with a flavour, foreign to the local flavour... If that's the case,
I doubt if he could have survived this long...
Listen to "sentamizh naattu thamizhachiye", "usilampatti peNkutti" and a
score of other rehman hits....
>Another important aspect of Ilayaraja, is his CREATIVITY. We can't find
>the shadow of his music from one song to another. This is virtually
>impossible for any Music Director, to keep away from his own raga's
>composed even 10 or 20 years back (or to track his compositions). Of
>course, he did copied very few western music like Darling Darling in
>Priya. But we could say, he copied just 1 % of his music and 99% was his
>own creations. Also, it is virtually impossible for any music director to
>compose songs and give mega hits successively. While Rahman or Anu Malik
>could compose maximum for 10 films a year, there was a time Ilayaraja
>composed about 50-75 films a year. This itself, showed the power of
>Ilayaraja and makes him uncomparable with rest of the MDs.
Gross underestimation.... Accepted, that Illayaraja is great.... But the
number of songs a person can compose in a given time frame is not the only
indicator of a person's creativity... Quality of the compositions produced
is another main indicator.... Check how many of those songs which illayaraja
composed were real nice.... Many of Rehman's songs have a kind of perfection
which even illayaraja (present day) finds it hard to achieve... Recording
quality one of Rehman's forte, is hard to match...
>While, speaking of Rahman, he gives more importance to music and
>recording rather than melody. Being an excellent composer in Keyboard,
>right from his career in Advertising, he uses extensive Electronic and
>Synthesized music more than original music. He gives lot of importance to
I don't understand this... Why should synthesized music be considered anything
less than music generated by using the original instruments.... In my
opinion (and I guess yours too, as you have mentioned earlier) CREATIVITY,
is the most important thing in music and not the instrument used correct...
If the purists had thought like that years back, probably many of the present
day instruments wouldn't have found their way into carnatic music.....
Well, You had mentioned earlier that there is no point comparing Rehman and
Illayaraja and you have fallen into same swirl....
Krish
Senthil Kumaran
with ilayaraja being the SUN
Suganthan
(Die hard ilayaraja RASIGAN)
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: >Of course, he did copied very few western music like Darling Darling in
: >Priya.
: Illaiyaraja copy music? Nah. He didn't need to. Anand-Milind copy,
: Anu Malik copies, Nadeem-Shravan copy. Not Illaiyaraja. Not Rehman.
: No composer exists in a vaccum, they are influenced by what they
: listen to. Illaiyaraja and Rehman are gifted enough to have mastered
: several styles so that when they compose in that style it sounds
: authentic. It sounds like a copy only to listeners who are not
: sophisticated enough to understand this concept. No offence intended
: but that's how it is.
Interesting thought that. The point is how to distinguish between
influence-cum-inspiration and copy. That would be difficult, in most
cases.
Cases in point,
AR Rahman for Parkadhe Parkadhe and Raja in Pudhu mapillai ku {Apoorva
Sahodargal.... Thanks Satish :) }. Both the songs are probably what we can
term original in their entirety but the mukhaDa for the first and the
chorus line for the second seem to close to the western songs.
: >While Rahman or Anu Malik could compose maximum for 10 films a year,
Please.... not on the same line.... You just can't lump ARR with Anu!
: I think Rehman has restored the importance
: of melody and at the same time is creating his own revolution of
: orchestration. He is also much more willing to defy the
: structural tyranny of the (pallavi-interlude-stanza)x2 formula.
Talking of revolutions, try Rahman's latest offering. Naallai Ulagam from
Love Birds. He takes melody, mixes it with a heavy dose of music and voila
we have something which is really something else altogether.
Later,
Ikram.
Ravi Krishna
: I think the comparisons are inevitable. Rehman brought a musical
: era in Tamil music to an abrupt end in much the same way Illaiyaraja
: "retired" M.S. Viswanathan in the late 70's. And the debates are
: oddly familiar with the faithful MSV fans indignant at the thought
: that the upstart could be mentioned in the same breath as the
: "king". But genius cannot be denied. Illaiyaraja (then) and Rehman (now)
: had (have) the unique musical ability to simultaneously
: resonate with and shape contemporary musical sensibilities.
: In time Rehman's impact will be universally acknowledged
: to be the equal of Illaiyaraja's.
MSV had to relinquish his crown to Ilayaraja because the MSV of 70's was
dishing out pathetic music. Ilayaraja came at appropriate time and he faced
virtually no compettion. The same is true for Rehman because the Ilayaraja
of 90's is dishing out third rate music. I am a very big fan of Ilayaraja
but I admit that he is totally spent and should retire. When I started this
thread in RMIM I meant Rehman's today's song vis-a-vis the best of
Ilayaraja's song which according to me was between late 70's and late 80's.
Comparing today's Ilayaraja's song with Rehman is unfair. How can you
compare when one person is probably at his best and the other well past his
prime. Comparison should always be made in their best years.
In that comparison Rehman suffers badly. If a similar comparison is made
between the melodious music of Ilayaraja and MSV then even Ilayaraja's music
will be second to MSV. No doubt Rehman's is immensely talented but he hasn't
shown the same variety in tunes like what Ilayaraja did. At least so far.
: Illaiyaraja copy music? Nah. He didn't need to. Anand-Milind copy,
: Anu Malik copies, Nadeem-Shravan copy. Not Illaiyaraja. Not Rehman.
: No composer exists in a vaccum, they are influenced by what they
: listen to. Illaiyaraja and Rehman are gifted enough to have mastered
: several styles so that when they compose in that style it sounds
: authentic. It sounds like a copy only to listeners who are not
: sophisticated enough to understand this concept. No offence intended
: but that's how it is.
Agreed 100%. They don't copy music but yes there are strains of other's
music in their songs. I have heard couple of english songs which sounds
very similar to Ilayaraj's songs and comes dangerously close to being a copy.
For eg: the song "Rum pum bum .." from Michael Madan Mohan Kamaraja.
Similarly just listen to the theme song of "Chariots of fire" and compare it
with "Pudu Vellai Mazhai .." of Roja. The background beat on which the
whole songs is composed the just the same. I guess that's how is film music.
Cut and paste.
: I wish Illaiyaraja had been as smart as Rehman in this regard and
: not mistaken profilicity (?!) for quality. There is so much mediocrity
: there that he could have avoided. Imagine if he could have extended
: himself as he did in "How to name it" and "Nothing but the wind"
: in every song. It takes time to produce great stuff like that, a fact
: that Rehman seems to have grasped very early in his career.
Very true. But the time Rehman takes to bring great stuff is too much. By
the way what is your definition of great stuff.
Do you include "Kadalan" , "Love Birds" as great stuff. Please for god sake
don't compare "How to name it" and "Nothing but wind" with any of Rehman's
score.
: Funny, but I think it is the opposite. Forget Rehman for now and put
: yourself back 10-15 years ago. Compare Illaiyaraja to MSV. MSV had
: much richer, sweeter melodies but Illaiyaraja blew him away with
: his command over arrangements. In many songs, in fact, it seems
: like the elaborate orchestration is the piece de resistance
: and the "melody" merely an irritating but necessary confinement
: imposed by the well-worn film song structure to which Illaiyaraja
: faithfully adheres. Not to say he is not a "melodious" composer --
: he can churn out a catchy tune as well as the best of them but
: the Illaiyaraja music "revolution" was really all about intricate
: musical arrangements. I think Rehman has restored the importance
: of melody and at the same time is creating his own revolution of
: orchestration. He is also much more willing to defy the
: structural tyranny of the (pallavi-interlude-stanza)x2 formula.
What melody are you talking about. If it's the quality of the tune ( just
forgot the synthesised orchestra) then Rehman has very few scores to talk
about.
: By original music, I presume you mean acoustic instruments. I differ
: with the point made here. He is clearly a master of the
: synthesizer but what particularly strikes me is his innovative
: and "original" use of acoustic instruments. Rather than strip
: the flute, guitar, violin, tabla, harmonium, veena or mridangam
: of their individuality by burying their tones in layers of orchestra,
: he brings these out to the fore-front, almost in your face, and lets
: them flaunt their pure voices on center stage. He is the ultimate
: minimalist genius who demands that each tone and melody be distinct and
: unmistakably heard without interference. Synth pads, bells and
: other assorted other supporting sounds merely flavor the mix to highlight
: the dominant tone -- they never overwhelm it. Illaiyaraja, on the
: other hand, is an ensemble man whose arrangements are
: dedicated to the proposition that the whole is greater than
: the sum of its parts. The "khitchidi" approach, if you will,
: as opposed to Rehman's "salads".
Agreed. Rehman's synthesised orchestra should not be a point against him.
It's in no way inferior to music generated by instruments.
: >recording (digital) and uses more techniques and tracks than any MD in
: >India. The way he mixes karnatic, hindustani and arabic filled with
: >Electronic music, makes people feel different in his music.
Rehman's recording is just out of the world.
: Totally differ here. Rehman is way ahead of his time. It is the mass
: audience that is "immatured" and has yet to catch up with him. Yet
: they resonate with him enough to have crowned him king for the moment.
Let's wait for couple of years. Already his present songs sounds distinctly
inferior to his earlier songs. Let's hope he turns better.
: It is only a matter of time before people say the same about Rehman
: (some enlightened souls are already saying it!). He has done enough
: to deserve it.
Again same answer. Wait for a couple of years. Who knows you yourself will
change your view about Rehman.
BTW I am a fan of Rehman and I do agree that he gave a new dimension to tamil
film industry and possibly hindi film industry also. But to elevate him as
a maestro is too early.
S. Ravi Krishna
Dev Mannemela
>
>You are right. People make a big mistake by comparing Ilaiyaraja with
>AR Rahman. It is true Rahman follows a different pattern in his music and
>sounds more hindustani with arabic mix (which of course attracts North
>Indians) than Karnatic. But let us analyze what Ilaiyaraja has done for
I have a few questions. Are than any Rahman songs, apart from "Humma Humma",
with any arabic influence ? Also, what are the Rahman songs that
sound hindustani? I can think of a lot of songs of his that
are very carnatic sounding ( songs in "Indira"/"Priyanka",
"Mettu Podu" in Duet, "Ennavale" in Kadhalan, "Margazhi Poove" in May Madham
etc..)..
>..
>
>Another important aspect of Ilayaraja, is his CREATIVITY. We can't find
>the shadow of his music from one song to another. This is virtually
>impossible for any Music Director, to keep away from his own raga's
>composed even 10 or 20 years back (or to track his compositions). Of
>course, he did copied very few western music like Darling Darling in
>Priya. But we could say, he copied just 1 % of his music and 99% was his
>own creations. Also, it is virtually impossible for any music director to
>compose songs and give mega hits successively. While Rahman or Anu Malik
>could compose maximum for 10 films a year, there was a time Ilayaraja
>composed about 50-75 films a year. This itself, showed the power of
>Ilayaraja and makes him uncomparable with rest of the MDs.
At one point, Bappi Lahiri composed about 50 films a year. :-)
Yes, really. This itself, showed the power
of Bappi Lahiri and makes him uncomparable with the rest of the MDs.
:-)
>Ilayaraja has achieved enough and ruled the Tamil Film Music world for
>more than 2 decades. There could be only one Ilayaraja and we are not
>going to get another Ilayaraja and even if we get, we will not find the
>original flavor that Ilayaraja has delivered to the Tamil Film Music
>World.
True.
/dev
--
Dev Mannemela de...@spimageworks.com
Sony Pictures Imageworks (310) 641-1614 (O)
C.J. Gopinath
: >From KannanX...@ccm2.hf.intel.com
: No argument there!
: Very true.
: >Kannan Sundar
: Venky Krishnaswamy
i agree 99% with you.
yes, ARR is definitely miles, no light-years ahead of any other
MDs out there now.
yes, he is inventive and his music is far more intricately
layered than most average film music.
but i feel he should slow down a little.
his love birds and rangeela are not as good as his earlier
compositions like roja, bombay or duet.
just my 2 np...
-gopi
___________________________________________________________________________
"It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value."
-- Arthur C. Clarke
C.J.GOPINATH
gop...@mem.odu.edu
cxg...@saab.eng.odu.edu
c_...@cs.odu.edu
http://www.mem.odu.edu/~gopin_c/
___________________________________________________________________________
vasu
But there are some bitter facts.
Though I wouldn't like to, I have to admit the fact that his
present day songs are not up to the mark at all, definitely not
to his standards of yesteryears.
But I feel it's largely due to his poor selection of movies.
For example, recently I saw the movie Makkal aatchi. The song
situationsin that movie are so routine that he himself would have
composed 10's of 100's of songs for such occassions.
After a complete domination of almost 3 decades, he doesn't need
to prove his genius in the Tamil Film music industry. It's high
time for him to quit TFM and concentrate on non-filmi albums like
nothing but Wind & How to Name it.
Regarding comparing Raja and Rehman, I feel that Rehman has a long way
to go to prove himself. (Even after 15-20 years since his debut, raja's
'thenpaandicheemaiyilE thErodum veedhiyilE' sounded very fresh. But probably
it requires the class of maniratnam to tap it.)But some of rehman's song do
sound stale and don't blend with the movie flow.
BTW, regarding copy:
once in an interview raja himself revealed that he copied
'pudhu maapillaikku! nalla nEramada' from MSV's 'naan paarththadhilE
avaL oruththiyaiththaan'.
He says he just changed the beat. But still for normal ears it sounded
new and great. (Try to compare this with people claiming "dhakku dhakku
karnE laga" as their inspired composition). Raja doesn't have security
problems,!!!!
-vasu.
Kannan
>Ilayaraja has achieved enough and ruled the Tamil Film Music world for
>more than 2 decades. There could be only one Ilayaraja and we are not
>going to get another Ilayaraja and even if we get, we will not find the
>original flavor that Ilayaraja has delivered to the Tamil Film Music
>World.
In general I agree with u sundar. I do agree that when it's ARR's
music padaravan paadarathe puriyathu. Illayaraja andha kaalathila
40,50 padam music pottana, andha timela, they were releasing about
270-300 films per year. Whereas now it's hardly 80!! If ARR is doing
about a dozen in it, its a sizeable % isn't it?
These 2 musics are 2 different breeds. Unfortunately, ARR is not the
right person for village subjects. The songs in last Bharathiraja's
film though its village based subject, the songs really didn't go with
the movie (i don't remember the movie's name). And now muthu. He has
given chance to Udith Narayan. The voice didn't suit rajini at all.
This, as far as I remember never happened with Illayaraja.
Kannan from dubai
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: I have a few questions. Are than any Rahman songs, apart from "Humma Humma",
: with any arabic influence ? Also, what are the Rahman songs that
: sound hindustani? I can think of a lot of songs of his that
: are very carnatic sounding ( songs in "Indira"/"Priyanka",
: "Mettu Podu" in Duet, "Ennavale" in Kadhalan, "Margazhi Poove" in May Madham
: etc..)..
My humble estimation would be that even "Usilambatti" had a faint Arabic
influence, especially at that stringed instrument piece. "Kannaalane" had
faint influences of Qawwali in it. Not exactly what you meant by Hindustani
but well...Qawwali isn't exactly Carnatic too, y'know. :) And what about
the beginning of Urvasii Urvasii? The "marhabaa" part was faintly
reminiscent of a maulvi's azaan. "Kya kareN kya na kareN" had the female
chorus trilling somewhat in the middle-eastern fashion too (Remember Omar
Mukhtaar?).
Finally, a question from my own side too. Was Veer Pandi Kottaile (the
basic tune) based on Raag Shankara? Somebody had remarked that to me. Also
was going over some of the sites on WWW which had the Carnatic ragas based
songs listed, and found that there seem to be some common names among the
ragas to be found in Hindustani classical also....eg.
There are some strains of bhairavi { and yes, isn't bhairavi a raagini
technically speaking? ), bageshree, bhoopaalam might be bhoopali for the
Northerners, there is darbaari KaanaD.a listed and surely there is a
hindustaani thing like that {??},there is desh {<=> des? }, versions of
Hameer and Kedar listed there. "En veettu thottatil" is supposed to have
some strains of Janjhuti and stuff.
Forgive me if there was any wrong information on the ragas I mentioned. It
would be great if some wiz would go thru and tell us whether the two forms
do have some common ragas are not. The site having the song list is right
now available at
http://stsp.ecn.purdue.edu/~ramasubr/tamil.films
If some of the ragas are similar we might find a sizeable number of songs
of ARR might by default be also considered based on Hindustani classical.
Later,
Ikram.
: At one point, Bappi Lahiri composed about 50 films a year. :-)
: Yes, really. This itself, showed the power
: of Bappi Lahiri and makes him uncomparable with the rest of the MDs.
: :-)
: /dev
Ravi Krishna
: yes, ARR is definitely miles, no light-years ahead of any other
: yes, he is inventive and his music is far more intricately
: layered than most average film music.
: but i feel he should slow down a little.
: his love birds and rangeela are not as good as his earlier
: compositions like roja, bombay or duet.
A correction: he should not slow down , he should retire.
So we are at a position where besides myself there are others who also feel
that ARR recent music is not as good as his earlier and to think of it he
has not even given 50 films.
More flames later.
Ravi Krishna
Kannan
>: Illaiyaraja copy music? Nah. He didn't need to. Anand-Milind copy,
Do you think so? Have heard this song in Kanavu KAnum Vazhkai from
Neengal Kettavai. Its a pakka copy of a hindi song sung by mannadae.
And too many times he has repeated himself. As far as ARR is
concerned initially he lacked variety by repeating his tunes in the
first few movies and also U can see the resemblance of Arabic songs in
his tune. Since I am in Dubai, I notice that. All said and done, there
is no doubt that these 2 are experts in their field.
Kannan from Dubai.
P O Box 16765
Dubai
United Arab Emirates
Ph : 971 4 835551
Fax : 971 4 835304
Email : kan...@emirates.net.ae (internet)
kn kannan@dmc (majornet)
Kannan
> Well Said !!!! there should no comparison between SUN and lightnig
>with ilayaraja being the SUN
Well people were saying the same thing in late seventies when Raja was
slowly conquering from MSV.
Mariasingham M Joseph
AR Rehman's 'Kuluvaliye" in Muthu is clearly a copy of the 'bunyon'(spelling)
song.
Arul-Nagesu Singam
> :
> AR Rehman's 'Kuluvaliye" in Muthu is clearly a copy of the 'bunyon'(spelling)
> song.
Oh really? Then blame it on Michael Jackson.. because Kuluvalile is a
copy (base music) of Mj's Billie Jean from Thriller... Go say this to MJ.
BTW, your views are a copy of J.R.Jeyawardane.... i.e. Whatever you don't
like is no-good, while what you like is what others ought to like.
Anthath Thamizhan,
dA RULer.
Email address: ansi...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
your login time expires in 5 minutes
Mariasingham M Joseph
Distribution:
Arul-Nagesu Singam (ansi...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
: Mariasingham M Joseph (4mj...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
: > :
: > AR Rehman's 'Kuluvaliye" in Muthu is clearly a copy of the 'bunyon'(spelling)
: > song.
: Oh really? Then blame it on Michael Jackson.. because Kuluvalile is a
: copy (base music) of Mj's Billie Jean from Thriller... Go say this to MJ.
: BTW, your views are a copy of J.R.Jeyawardane.... i.e. Whatever you don't
: like is no-good, while what you like is what others ought to like.
Mr.Nagesu,
The discussion has nothing to do with politics. Further this is not about
what I like or don't like. BTW it seems you are lost as to what is being
discussed under this thread.
Better luck next time!!!
: Anthath Thamizhan,
Arul-Nagesu Singam
> : Mariasingham M Joseph (4mj...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
> : > :
> : > AR Rehman's 'Kuluvaliye" in Muthu is clearly a copy of the 'bunyon'(spelling)
> : > song.
> : Oh really? Then blame it on Michael Jackson.. because Kuluvalile is a
> : copy (base music) of Mj's Billie Jean from Thriller... Go say this to MJ.
> : BTW, your views are a copy of J.R.Jeyawardane.... i.e. Whatever you don't
> : like is no-good , while what you like is what others ought to like.
> Mr.Nagesu,
> The discussion has nothing to do with politics. Further this is not about
> what I like or don't like. BTW it seems you are lost as to what is being
> discussed under this thread.
Would the all knowing Maria like to englighten me as to how I am lost? If
I am lost, I will atleast have certain aids to lead me back in the right
direction unlike some ppl who are totally lost all the time. And I
certainly am not one with multiple personal disorder to go searching for
myself - even - when I am in the light.
Got a problem with English? Dont you see my statements about the song?
If you are blind, then sorry, this is not the place for you.
> Better luck next time!!!
Better luck at least this time!!! ( you seem to have run out of lucks).
Mariasingham M Joseph
: > Arul-Nagesu Singam (ansi...@chat.carleton.ca) wrote:
: > : Mariasingham M Joseph (4mj...@qlink.queensu.ca) wrote:
: > : > :
: > : > AR Rehman's 'Kuluvaliye" in Muthu is clearly a copy of the 'bunyon'(spelling)
: > : > song.
: > : Oh really? Then blame it on Michael Jackson.. because Kuluvalile is a
: > : copy (base music) of Mj's Billie Jean from Thriller... Go say this to MJ.
: > : BTW, your views are a copy of J.R.Jeyawardane.... i.e. Whatever you don't
: > : like is no-good , while what you like is what others ought to like.
: > Mr.Nagesu,
: > The discussion has nothing to do with politics. Further this is not about
: > what I like or don't like. BTW it seems you are lost as to what is being
: > discussed under this thread.
: Would the all knowing Maria like to englighten me as to how I am lost? If
: I am lost, I will atleast have certain aids to lead me back in the right
: direction unlike some ppl who are totally lost all the time. And I
: certainly am not one with multiple personal disorder to go searching for
: myself - even - when I am in the light.
: Got a problem with English? Dont you see my statements about the song?
: If you are blind, then sorry, this is not the place for you.
: > Better luck next time!!!
: Better luck at least this time!!! ( you seem to have run out of lucks).
Mr.Nagesu,
Unfortunately you seem to be letting out a lot of steam over this. Your
post just reiterates the fact that you are totally lost in your emotional
ego trip. Of course the common property that the web is you have no
right or authority to tell me what is or what is not the place for me.
Better luck next time!!!
: > : Anthath Thamizhan,
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
Due to time constraint, I am not reading netnews often; therefore, if
you have strong objections to what I wrote and want me to respond
please send me a reply in addition to posting your views on the net.
And, I will try to respond to you quickly.
I can not wait to be quiet especially after a friend of mine --who is not only
very knowledgeable about music (just not film music; but classical music
also); but also very talented musician-- started comparing the two music
directors of Tamil film music industry. I am talking about Venky Krishnaswamy
who recently wrote about AR Rehman.
In the past I wrote a lot about Ilayaraja (IR) and comparing him to
AR Rehman (ARR). Basically I said ARR can not be compared to IR at this
time. Since, people are already comparing him, I thought I will share
some of my thoughts again.
For those of you who have followed my writing in the past, I would like to
repeat that I am not a fan of any particular composer. I listen to good
music. Good to me means something that pleases to my ear. If I sound I am
saying something positive about one composer it only means that I like whatever
he or she (s/he) did good in a particular song. If I sound biased towards one
composer it is not intentional; but, just based on their past achievement.
In my reply to Venky's response to Kannan I will first respond to Venky's
comment, and then show some of what I mean by reviewing my impression of
"Rangeela" songs which appears at the end of this response.
=========================================================================
Start of my response
=========================================================================
In article <4ds91m$n...@nntpb.cb.att.com>,
Venkatesh Krishnaswamy <ve...@indra.info.att.com> wrote:
>>From KannanX...@ccm2.hf.intel.com
>>
>>You are right. People make a big mistake by comparing Ilaiyaraja with
>>AR Rahman.
>
>I think the comparisons are inevitable. Rehman brought a musical
>era in Tamil music to an abrupt end in much the same way Illaiyaraja
^^^^^^^^^^^
>"retired" M.S. Viswanathan in the late 70's. And the debates are
^^^^^^^^^
I think you used these words here to attract the attention
of some people who make comparisons of extreme nature. Extreme
I mean who would praise a composer much more by pushing aside
other composers or they will do the opposite by not recognizing
their talents. I understand that you were trying to protect
from the later concern regarding ARR.
But, I would like to correct the two choice of words "abruptly" and
"retired" as both of them are not true with IR.
Going back to the style of comparison using food you made earlier
I will try the same. People were getting tired of IR style for
two reasons. Reason 1 is most of the composers, at least in south,
were very much influenced by him, and therefore stared sounding
like IR. It does not matter how good a particular music. If you hear
the same type of music continuously either from IR or from his clones
that type of music start to saturate your musical ear, and therefore
people need a change. This can be compared to a person getting fed up
with his favorite food.
ARR is a welcome change in that he is bringing a new style. In his
style, however, I already starting to notice a lot of repetition
that a new musician can easily take over the position of ARR. He needs
to something different if he has to continue to be successful.
I know he will continue to be successful amidst the current music
directors (that includes IR also as he has not come up with a bang.
For IR to get back to his number 1 position he has to totally
come up something new just like he did with his "Annakili"; otherwise
people are not going take notice of him. Of course, they will remember
him for his contribution so far)
>oddly familiar with the faithful MSV fans indignant at the thought
>that the upstart could be mentioned in the same breath as the
>"king". But genius cannot be denied. Illaiyaraja (then) and Rehman (now)
^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>had (have) the unique musical ability to simultaneously
>resonate with and shape contemporary musical sensibilities.
I can not say MSV was a king at the time IR took over. MSV along
with Ramamurthy (Vishwanathan & Ramamurthy (VR)) gave wonderful
music. In my opinion (and I have stated this in the past) some of
the melodies they created were the best. I don't know how much of
that feeling comes from the fact of nostalgia as I grew up with that
music. MSV by himself did not do that great. He was all right compared
to musicians of his times. I mean he was popular, even though
KV Mahadevan gave good compositions based on classical ragas more.
V Kumar (used by K Balachander) and Shankar Ganesh could not be
a threat to MSV at all.
Your second observation "genius cannot be denied" is very much true.
Time will put these people into what they deserve; but, it is too early
to compare, IMO, ARR with IR. One need not even compare for them
to be great. He has potential, and if he continues to give music to
the caliber of Roja, Gentleman etc. he will be on his way to that
level of great MDs.
>In time Rehman's impact will be universally acknowledged
>to be the equal of Illaiyaraja's.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not at this time. I know he is more popular than IR compared among
North Indian fans. He has the perfect opportunity to become great
and even become a greatest composer. It is all under his control, and
of course will be limited by competition from younger musical talents.
But, right now I do not feel that he can be compared to great MDs
based on his music created so far.
>
>>It is true Rahman follows a different pattern in his music
>
>No argument there!
>
>>and sounds more hindustani with arabic mix (which of course attracts North
>>Indians) than Karnatic.
>
>Not true. Rehman (like Illaiyaraja in his time) is truly eclectic.
>He has incorporated elements of Carnatic, Hindustani, folk music,
>Jazz, Rock and contemporary western styles in a manner that
>both preserves the authenticity of the original style yet
>creates new idioms. Listen to songs in Duet (Mettu Podu), Gentleman
>(En veetu Thotathil), Roja (Pudu Vellai Mazhai) etc. and you
I agree with you here with one exception. When I hear ARR music
what stands in my mind is more of western style. There is nothing
wrong in that; except that, living in this part of the world where
I hear a lot of western music, it does not appeal to me that much.
Maybe, as a school going boy in India, I would have liked this
to start with.
>will notice the strong carnatic influence. Of course (like Illaiyaraja)
>he takes many many liberties with the ragas (which undoubtedly grate
>on purist sensibilities) but then he makes no pretense of being
>a carnatic musician. He is a "fusion" artist and he does that with
^^^^^^^^
Venky, I remember you were the one who pointed to me about IR's song
"Poovaadai Kaatru" where he has used some jazz element; therefore,
I take it here you are not suggesting that IR has not done that type of
it. I will say more further where you compared about "Salad" and
"Kichidi".
IR does the fusion of several musical styles; but ending, most of the
times, with a musical sound which mostly sounds Indian. In Indian music
I would like the songs to sound Indian. If IR does the same type of
effect for a western film then I would not like IR's music just like I
do not enjoy fully ARRs western effects in Indian films.
>unequaled panache.
>
>>But let us analyze what Ilaiyaraja has done for
>>nearly 2 Decade or so in south indian music world.
>>As far Tamil music is concerned, we could say he is the CONSTITUTION
>>Writer itself.
>
>Rehman is significantly amending and adding articles to that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I agree with you. I would include ARR in that group of MDs who
has bought something new to the music for others to follow, change
and take inspiration from.
>constitution. Just look at the number of Rehman wanna-bes out
>there.
>
>>Another important aspect of Ilayaraja, is his CREATIVITY. We can't find
>>the shadow of his music from one song to another. This is virtually
>>impossible for any Music Director, to keep away from his own raga's
>>composed even 10 or 20 years back (or to track his compositions).
>
>I don't get this. Illaiyaraja has a VERY distinct and unmistakable
>style as does Rehman. By definition, this means that songs end up
>casting shadows over one another. That is his trademark, what makes
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>him unique.
I agree that each one has different style; but I started to see
more of shadows in ARR i.e. more of repetition between his own
songs so soon. If it happens over a period then you can say it is
all right; but, there is a lot of repetition in ARRs compared to IR.
>constitution. Just look at the number of Rehman wanna-bes out
>there.
>
>>Of course, he did copied very few western music like Darling Darling in
>>Priya.
>
>Illaiyaraja copy music? Nah. He didn't need to. Anand-Milind copy,
>Anu Malik copies, Nadeem-Shravan copy. Not Illaiyaraja. Not Rehman.
>No composer exists in a vaccum, they are influenced by what they
>listen to. Illaiyaraja and Rehman are gifted enough to have mastered
^^^^^^^^^^^
>several styles so that when they compose in that style it sounds
>authentic. It sounds like a copy only to listeners who are not
>sophisticated enough to understand this concept. No offence intended
>but that's how it is.
I would say the above comment would apply to IR alone for now. As far
as ARR he has potential, and we have to wait and see. Also, see my
comment further.
>
>>While Rahman or Anu Malik could compose maximum for 10 films a year,
>>there was a time Ilayaraja composed about 50-75 films a year.
>>This itself, showed the power of Ilayaraja and makes him uncomparable
>>with rest of the MDs.
>
>I wish Illaiyaraja had been as smart as Rehman in this regard and
>not mistaken profilicity (?!) for quality. There is so much mediocrity
>there that he could have avoided. Imagine if he could have extended
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>himself as he did in "How to name it" and "Nothing but the wind"
>in every song. It takes time to produce great stuff like that, a fact
^^^^
I agree here. It takes time to produce good stuff; but you forgot
about IR where he can produce stuff in a short time, and
he has done it. The mediocrity has to do with being not taking
the time and effort to do it. Name if he has created such
mediocrity for great films or great MDs. I will not forgive IR
for not keeping his quality for all films. He should have refused
to give music as opposed to accepting and doing a
mediocre job. He got away with that due to lack of competition.
>that Rehman seems to have grasped very early in his career.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I totally disagree with this. He does less number of movies because
of the way he composes. He does it on the synthesizer by putting one
part at a time. This takes time. It looks like he first composes
the whole thing on the synthesizer, and then tries to recreate where
it needs real instruments. There is nothing wrong in the way he does
it, and there is nothing wrong in using synthesizer for the composition.
But, I would have preferred to hear more of real instruments in the
final songs. Synthesizer can be used for special effects and to add
special touch for creating a new sound ( a mixture of many instrument
into a single instrument sound).
Those who complain about ARRs synthesizer may not know about IR using
synthesizer a lot. He has used so many different instrument sounds; but
they all sound more Indian. Also, where he uses distinctive non-Indian
sounding pieces it will be for a brief moment amidst other Indian
sounding instrument sounds.
>
>>When we analyze, the music of Ilayaraja itself, we could see he gave
>>more importance to melody of the song than music itself.
>
>Funny, but I think it is the opposite. Forget Rehman for now and put
>yourself back 10-15 years ago. Compare Illaiyaraja to MSV. MSV had
>much richer, sweeter melodies but Illaiyaraja blew him away with
>his command over arrangements. In many songs, in fact, it seems
>like the elaborate orchestration is the piece de resistance
>and the "melody" merely an irritating but necessary confinement
>imposed by the well-worn film song structure to which Illaiyaraja
>faithfully adheres. Not to say he is not a "melodious" composer --
>he can churn out a catchy tune as well as the best of them but
I agree here, and we have talked about this exact things in the past.
>the Illaiyaraja music "revolution" was really all about intricate
>musical arrangements. I think Rehman has restored the importance
^^^^^^^^
I do not agree here. If you mean by this his songs where there is
no instrument during the singing that does not return the melody.
May be you can be specific. I can agree with "Chinna chinna aasai" where
there is minimal music which sounds new and great and matched with a
nice song and a nice singing.
Talking about melodies ARR has used part of old Tamil melodies in his
songs. That was the reason that some of the songs appealed to me
immediately instantly when I heard them first. It's okay that he does
this; but then people can not attribute completely for his creativeness.
>of melody and at the same time is creating his own revolution of
>orchestration. He is also much more willing to defy the
^^^^
>structural tyranny of the (pallavi-interlude-stanza)x2 formula.
He has certainly defied it; but it is to the worse as some nettor has
pointed in the past that he repeats the lines. For example, if there
are four lines of lyrics almost the same melody is used for all the
four lines. Even though I like these western pop songs I do not like
them. Also, to me, I pay more attention to the music rather than
lyrics; therefore, I don't like to get the same melody repeated
so many times.
On the same topic IR has done this already way back. He did this first
in his music. (What I am including here appeared already; but I have to
include it illustrate the point about IR's style). He changed how songs
sound. Before IR, there was music only during interlude, and during the
singing there will be only rhythm accompaniment with violin following
in low volume, and some small cover-up when the singer breathes. After
IR, that got changed totally. You got the symphony effect for most of
the songs. The interludes would rarely repeat. The melody between
stanzas will not be the same.
His use of flutes is very good. He uses of two flutes at two different
octaves playing together giving a unique sound. I think he does similar
thins with Shehanai. Also, he used extensively shehanai in South Indian
music (as Shehanai is mostly used in Hindustani and Hindi music).
In terms of different song structure, you will notice different
structures from the songs of Thalapathi. Also the song "Then Paandi
Seemayile .." sung by IR himself has a different structure. It has no
stanza. Also, the song sung by Kamal Hasan "Inji Iduppalagi ..." has
a different structure.
>
>>While, speaking of Rahman.... Being an excellent composer in Keyboard,
>>right from his career in Advertising, he uses extensive Electronic and
>>Synthesized music more than original music.
>
>By original music, I presume you mean acoustic instruments. I differ
>with the point made here. He is clearly a master of the
>synthesizer but what particularly strikes me is his innovative
>and "original" use of acoustic instruments. Rather than strip
>the flute, guitar, violin, tabla, harmonium, veena or mridangam
>of their individuality by burying their tones in layers of orchestra,
>he brings these out to the fore-front, almost in your face, and lets
>them flaunt their pure voices on center stage. He is the ultimate
>minimalist genius who demands that each tone and melody be distinct and
>unmistakably heard without interference. Synth pads, bells and
This is good, and I liked this deliberate approach.
But, I should add here that. He keeps repeating a trend of using a
very slow song in each film. Such slow songs are okay once in a
while; but making it a formula as one slow song per movie.
>other assorted other supporting sounds merely flavor the mix to highlight
>the dominant tone -- they never overwhelm it. Illaiyaraja, on the
>other hand, is an ensemble man whose arrangements are
>dedicated to the proposition that the whole is greater than
>the sum of its parts. The "khitchidi" approach, if you will,
>as opposed to Rehman's "salads".
^^^^^^^^
I agree with what you are trying to say here with a few exceptions.
First of all IR gives both types. And as far as the "Salad" part of
ARR, only at a few places what you have said is true about ARR.
Where as, most of the time I get a feel that he is bringing these
different influences and mixing it. As he uses a few instrument it
does not get "Indianized". I mean it does not sound Indian. It sounds
like listening to a western number. That is fine with many people I
guess; other wise he will not be this successful.
MDs can bring influences from all over the world; but I like it is
mixed nicely as done by IR so well. Everything IR uses is western,
western classical ideas, western instruments, western recording
techniques etc. Yet the underlying melody is distinctively Indian
or Indian sounding.
ARRs use of western effect of Jazz, Rock etc. sounds more like, pardon
my expression, cut-and-paste approach. Let me give you example, In
the movie "Bombay" for the "Kehna hai Kya" where he uses the qawali
type music at one point it sounds like as if it is cut from Nusrat
Fateh Ali Khan. It sounds good, and I liked the songs; but the fact remains
that it is cut-and-paste approach. Every time I listen to ARRs songs
I reminded of several things from other songs (I know I feel the same
about lot of present day Hindi MDs; but they can not be compared with
IR, and for that matter with ARR also. I should also point out at this
time (this is one liberty by not being a fan of some one) that when
I listen to some western classical songs I am reminded of some melody
used by IR also. Recently I heard some classical piece in an adverti-
sement which reminded me of my favorite song, Venky, I think you know
which song I am talking about. It is none other than "Ilamaiyenum
poongatru". Again the difference is that you can not say that in the
first hearing or a few hearing to spot that. May be this is what you
referred when you said these MDs (IR and ARR) are influenced by these
as opposed to copying directly. I agree IR does it all the times; where
as ARR has come a long way)
Another cut-and-paste part I can name is the "Eurhythmics" type of
chorus in a song for either "Gentleman" or "Thiruda Thiruda".
Another thing I noticed was that the song "Chiku buku Railu .." from
Gentleman, I noticed and I think, was influenced (notice I am not
saying copied) by another song I heard. I was listening to a CD which
had samplers from the music issued by "Hemisphere - Music of the world"
(One of the song included in this CD is Raag Pahadi from "Call of the
valley" by "Sharma, Kabra and Chaurasia"). There is a song in this CD
by Mohamed Fouad called Khafet Dammon from the CD "Sif Saffa: New
music from the middle east" which reminded me of "Chiku buku railu".
Actually, even though it is copied or influenced I like his use of
Arabic influence very much. I have liked Arabic music very much. In
fact my liking towards western classical was made easy by the piece by
the composer Camille Saint-saens for "Samson Delilah". There is a lot
of Arabic part in this. In fact this is the piece that they used to use
in AIR in India. Arabic music is almost integrated in Indian film music
very much.
>
>> He gives lot of importance to
>>recording (digital) and uses more techniques and tracks than any MD in
>>India. The way he mixes karnatic, hindustani and arabic filled with
>>Electronic music, makes people feel different in his music.
>
>Very true.
>
>> but he feels immatured in some of his songs.
>
>Totally differ here. Rehman is way ahead of his time. It is the mass
>audience that is "immatured" and has yet to catch up with him. Yet
^^^^^^^^^^
I do not agree here. You make it sound like one of those art films
which is not successful at the box-office but is well liked by the
intellectuals. Here, he has produced the music that is well liked
by the mass. He has brought a new sounding music to the film field
as many MDs who are cloning or copying directly IR's music has
saturated film music to IR type music.
I have been asking for this type of competition for IR. But,
unfortunately IR has not rebounded back to see even superior music
in film industry. IR has to come up totally new sounding music to
take the music to even a newer level.
>they resonate with him enough to have crowned him king for the moment.
>
>>It is hard to day, whether he can achieve something and show that kind of
>>creativity in music like Ilayaraja.
>
>He already has. When people wake up to the full scope of what he
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>has accomplished so far, his greatness will not be in question.
^^^^^^^^
I don't think he is there yet; but he is on its way if he reduces
shadows and repetitions in his songs.
>
>>Ilayaraja has achieved enough and ruled the Tamil Film Music world for
>>more than 2 decades. There could be only one Ilayaraja and we are not
>>going to get another Ilayaraja and even if we get, we will not find the
>>original flavor that Ilayaraja has delivered to the Tamil Film Music
>>World.
>
>>Kannan Sundar
>
>It is only a matter of time before people say the same about Rehman
>(some enlightened souls are already saying it!). He has done enough
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would agree that you (Venky) are musically enlightened. May be I
am not able to hear what you are able to hear about ARR. Or it may be
that what IR has done repeatedly for all these years so far has made
me to wait and see.
>to deserve it.
>
>Venky Krishnaswamy
Now for the review I promised on "Rangeela" one of his recent films.
By the way I have not seen the movie. Sometime you like the song when
have seen the movie. In that case it is the total effect. This is to show
how much I was disappointed hearing this cassette. I don't know if the
CD would sound differently.
I wanted to write this a long time back. As I was busy I could not
write about it; but when I saw ARR being compared to IR I could not
just let it go. Again sorry for the delay in the comments:
"Rangeela Re":
I like Asha's voice very much. First of all I was disappointed (I should
admit that her voice was different and the credit goes to ARR) about her
voice. It sounded monotonous beat song.
The recording of Snare drum in this song and many other songs in this
film does not sound good. The interlude music sounds similar to
something I have already heard.
Again, his repeated use of child voice in his songs.
"Hai Rama"
This is the best song I liked in this film, especially Swarnalatha's
voice. Something original and sounds real nice. Nice use of classical
touch, and is quite sensual. Even, Hari Haran's voice (which I don't
like it that much) sounded okay in this song. But, the sudden drum part in the first interlude did not sound that it fit this song.
But, the use of low pitch bamboo flute and the regular flute playing
in the second interlude is great.
"Yaaro Sun Lo Zara"
This song is reuse of his song in a Telugu movie. I liked the Telugu
very much. Without seeing the movie I can only guess this is more like
a comedy song in this movie as opposed to a love song in the Telugu
movie. Compared to the original song there is no difference in terms of
the music and the interludes, and I like the Telugu version better.
Even though Udit Narayan is my favorite singer among the new singers, I
did not like his voice and singing in this. This may be because of the
mood of the original song and the original singer SP Balasubramanyam (or
Mano). The most disappointing part was the voice of Chithra. It sounds
like the recording as opposed to her real voice (Chithra's voice is the
best female voice today in India) and, that has been changed by ARR.
It may be hard for me to accept that is the way Chithra sang this song.
Also, I do not like when any MD tries to re-use their song from one
language to another. I feel as if like I was robbed off a chance from
hearing a new song. I know IR has done this to a larger extent, and it
is bad IR did this, and now ARR is following the same.
"Kya Kare Kya Na Kare"
The starting of the song sounds more like South Indian folk tune.
Considering the fact this music was made for Hindi music first, and no
South Indian of this movie exist this is unusual. If it is a deliberate
attempt to expose North Indian audience with South Indian music then
it is okay, and I have comment with it, and I welcome it.
The snare drum again in this song sounds repetitious and glaring. Udit's
singing in this song is not great. I was disappointed. I don't
know if it is because of the MD or the singer. Moreover towards the
ending of the stanza it sounds like a tune some other song that I have
heard before. I can not name it right now. May be some other nettor can
help here.
May be this song was supposed to be sung by some odd voice like
Peters Suresh, ARR or the Bombay singer (I don't recall his name)
"Tanha Tanha Yahan Pe Jeena"
Asha's voice in this is better. The interludes with flute were good with
The second interludes reminded me of the interludes for a Tamil song
"Puthham pudhu bhoomi vendum .."
Again the snare drum in this song was distracting.
"Pyaar Ye Jaane Kaise"
I was glad to hear Suresh Wadkar's voice here (he is talented singer
who is not fully exploited that well by MDs, and also has not become
that popular like Kumar Sanu).
The interlude was quite plain, almost nothing except for the drum, may
be some other soft instrument like a triangle or something could have
been used. The interlude is nice.
"Mangta Hai Kya"
ARR should not have sung this at all, or should have switched to lower
octave during the high pitch portion. His voice sounds like it is coming
from a well. I don't know if it is deliberate recording effect. Also, in
the first interlude there is too much of repetitious music without any
variation between repeated portions. But, for that the music sounded
good. In comparison, Shweeta has sung this very well, especially at
high pitch portion.
The starting music of the second stanza reminded me of one of Stevie
Wonder's song. And, towards the end of the song the chorus and beat is
like the song "Konjam Nilavu ..."
Dev Mannemela
In article <4emd87$1...@nntpa.cb.att.com>, <san...@arch4.ho.att.com> wrote:
>
>In the past I wrote a lot about Ilayaraja (IR) and comparing him to
>AR Rehman (ARR). Basically I said ARR can not be compared to IR at this
>time. Since, people are already comparing him, I thought I will share
>some of my thoughts again.
Generally speaking, when do you folks think we can start comparing two
music directors? Do they have to cross some kind of threshold in terms
of the number of movies, years in the biz, some quantifiable measure
of accomplishments? or a combination of all those..?
> Going back to the style of comparison using food you made earlier
> I will try the same. People were getting tired of IR style for
> two reasons. Reason 1 is most of the composers, at least in south,
> were very much influenced by him, and therefore stared sounding
> like IR. It does not matter how good a particular music. If you hear
> the same type of music continuously either from IR or from his clones
> that type of music start to saturate your musical ear, and therefore
> people need a change. This can be compared to a person getting fed up
> with his favorite food.
While it is true that there are a lot of IR clones out there, imho
all IR has to do to reclaim his number 1 spot, is to compose
good stuff. Simple. :-) Nice melodies with good orchestration..
and when he has done that ( in the recent years), they are definitely
noticed and appreciated. [Mahanadhi, Veera, Avatharam etc..]
> ...
> For IR to get back to his number 1 position he has to totally
> come up something new just like he did with his "Annakili"; otherwise
> people are not going take notice of him. Of course, they will remember
> him for his contribution so far)
dev
S.Jagadish
> Gentleman, I noticed and I think, was influenced (notice I am not
I bought a CD sometime back, "Raga Aberi" by L Shankar, Vikku Vinakakaram and
Zakir Hussain. If you recall the Chikku Bukku raile song, the beginning is a
clarinet (I think) (before the lyrics begin). One of the songs in the CD also
had a tune similar to the clarinet tune in Chikku Bukku
--
S.Jagadish : SF91...@NTUVAX.NTU.AC.SG
Nanyang Technological University
Die hard Kamal Haasan visiri ... from Kalatthur Kannama to Kurudhi Punal !!
Mayajaal : http://www2.ntu.ac.sg:8000/~sf918168/mayajaal.html
"Jai Hind" "Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhaana, Yahaan Kal Kya Ho Kisne Jaana"
Swaminathan.N
songs"? Because all the while I see people writing ONLY about the songs.
Songs take only about 20-25 minutes of a movie. The rest of 1:45 hrs has
background scoring. And I think Rehman is nowhere near Raja in that area.
--
Swaminathan.N
Venkatramani V
This issue has been discussed so many times it has become boring. I
still read to find out whether there is something 'different' in
arguments.
IMO, it basically boils down to taste. I am a big fan of Ilyaraja. But
hey, I don't try to dissect music. it should please me. It did in
80's. He was the KING (or was it thanks to MSV's decline ?).
Now it seems to be ARR's days. And with Deva scoring well (Asai was
great !), it seems Ilyaraja can NOT take everything for guaranteed.
As was with IRaja's songs, one has to listen couple of times ARR's
also to really enjoy it. He is not fabulous with all his numbers (once
again it is an opinion based on my taste, bias !) - so was IRaja.
So I don't understand why we bicker about this. The reception of the
mass - who dictate and decide - is the best measure. If ARR can claim
such huge compensation ( Is it true that he charged 1 crore for
Rangeela?) and producers line up to sign him, then something is good
about him. Comeon, those producers are businessmen and they see that
this person can produce. So was the case with Iraja when he dominated
with Kovai Thambi, Muktha, Sathya Studios. He got the exposure and set
the standard. Now ARR is setting it.
Isn't it true that our grandparents still consider MKT as great and
probably will conclude IRaja, ARR as noisy.
When IRaja used synthesized (is the spelling correct ?) music we went
'Wow'.. whereas we end up holding the digitization against ARR. I
can't understand.
One thing is sure, though. When I play LoveBirds - but for Appachee
Indian song which I programmed out - my kids love it. And they are the
ones who will dictate - as we did for Iraja - the fate of ARR.
Just my thoughts ... keep arguing
san...@arch4.ho.att.com
>Thanks for the detailed post, Sandeep.
>
>In article <4emd87$1...@nntpa.cb.att.com>, <san...@arch4.ho.att.com> wrote:
>>
>Generally speaking, when do you folks think we can start comparing two
>music directors? Do they have to cross some kind of threshold in terms
>of the number of movies, years in the biz, some quantifiable measure
>of accomplishments? or a combination of all those..?
>
If you are comparing songs you should be able to compare any MD to
any other MD at any time. But, if you are starting one MD is better
than other then you can not do so until you have looked at a sample
of their achievements in different types of music. I mean village
type, folk songs, fast paced songs, dance songs, sorrow songs,
happy songs etc. etc.
You can compare any two songs of diff MDs and present the comparison
that way. But to say that ARR is equal to or greater thatn IR, that
is when I have probelem. It is for that comparison I said it is
too early, again IMO.
I hope this clarifies.
>
>While it is true that there are a lot of IR clones out there, imho
>all IR has to do to reclaim his number 1 spot, is to compose
>good stuff. Simple. :-) Nice melodies with good orchestration..
^^^^^^^^^^^
This is just not enough to regain his original popularity. This
is what I said that he has to reinvent his own music. IR has to
throw away (or disguise his current style) into totally a new
style of music which catches the attention of listeners.
Until that happens or that the current music of other MDs degrades
to lower level than IR, IR will not be number 1 any more.
>and when he has done that ( in the recent years), they are definitely
>noticed and appreciated. [Mahanadhi, Veera, Avatharam etc..]
>
>
>> ...
>> For IR to get back to his number 1 position he has to totally
>> come up something new just like he did with his "Annakili"; otherwise
>> people are not going take notice of him. Of course, they will remember
>> him for his contribution so far)
>
>
>
Ikram Ahmed Khan
: I agree with you here with one exception. When I hear ARR music
: what stands in my mind is more of western style. There is nothing
: wrong in that; except that, living in this part of the world where
: I hear a lot of western music, it does not appeal to me that much.
: IR does the fusion of several musical styles; but ending, most of the
: times, with a musical sound which mostly sounds Indian. In Indian music
: I would like the songs to sound Indian. If IR does the same type of
Hi again Sandeep (after a long hiatus!!)
{ To tell you the truth, I was missing your post, when ppl started
comparing N-S with ARR and ARR coming second!! }
Q here: Would you qualify "Raja" song from Agnee Nakshtram as being
intrinsically Indian?
: >several styles so that when they compose in that style it sounds
: >authentic. It sounds like a copy only to listeners who are not
: >sophisticated enough to understand this concept. No offence intended
: >but that's how it is.
: I would say the above comment would apply to IR alone for now. As far
: as ARR he has potential, and we have to wait and see. Also, see my
: comment further.
Uh why? I mean you haven't said that ARR copies/inspires. So how come this
comment to apply only to I and not to ARR? At last count, ARR's music was
around 20-odd films. Naushad's whole music career has around 70 odd. He had
already done great things by the first 20 films and was commanding huge
prices too.
: >that Rehman seems to have grasped very early in his career.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: I totally disagree with this. He does less number of movies because
: of the way he composes. He does it on the synthesizer by putting one
: part at a time. This takes time. It looks like he first composes
Ah! But choosing to compose that way, inherently involves making a choice of
doing less films. For an MD who is commanding a hefty price, it would still
be an important factor to consider, no?
: I do not agree here. If you mean by this his songs where there is
: no instrument during the singing that does not return the melody.
: May be you can be specific. I can agree with "Chinna chinna aasai" where
: there is minimal music which sounds new and great and matched with a
: nice song and a nice singing.
Interesting observation, that. Does chinna chinna aasai really have "minimal
music" as you term it. Right from the starting interlude { oooh, that shot
of the Sun coming up over the horizon, to the girls playing in the fields,
there is much more music there than in entire movies of N-S (sorry to
include a North Indian composer duo :) )
: >of melody and at the same time is creating his own revolution of
: >orchestration. He is also much more willing to defy the
: ^^^^
: >structural tyranny of the (pallavi-interlude-stanza)x2 formula.
: He has certainly defied it; but it is to the worse as some nettor has
: pointed in the past that he repeats the lines. For example, if there
: are four lines of lyrics almost the same melody is used for all the
: four lines. Even though I like these western pop songs I do not like
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: them. Also, to me, I pay more attention to the music rather than
~~~~
: lyrics; therefore, I don't like to get the same melody repeated
: so many times.
Didn't quite get what you were trying to say in the underlined part.
However, as to the detriment bit, ARR is guilty of not using easily
recognisable tunes too. Isn't that one of the reasons that at the first
listen you can't really decide what he is making us listen to? And as a
case in point " Naallai Ulagam". The melody just ebbs and flows in there.
: His use of flutes is very good. He uses of two flutes at two different
: octaves playing together giving a unique sound. I think he does similar
: thins with Shehanai. Also, he used extensively shehanai in South Indian
: music (as Shehanai is mostly used in Hindustani and Hindi music).
Didn't ARR use saarangi (or in deference to his synths, saarangi-synth :)
) to admirable effect in Urvasi Urvasi?
As for flutes, some nettor has already remarked on the extraordinary
flautist who works with ARR. His use of the flute in "Kokku saiva kokku"
isn't exactly lacking, y'know.
: But, I should add here that. He keeps repeating a trend of using a
: very slow song in each film. Such slow songs are okay once in a
: while; but making it a formula as one slow song per movie.
A possible reason for that : People were claiming that he only makes the
fast-paced variety songs and his songs only can give the western flavor to
our musical palates. That argument has made its appearance on quite a few
threads now, isn't it?
: ARRs use of western effect of Jazz, Rock etc. sounds more like, pardon
: my expression, cut-and-paste approach. Let me give you example, In
: the movie "Bombay" for the "Kehna hai Kya" where he uses the qawali
: type music at one point it sounds like as if it is cut from Nusrat
: Fateh Ali Khan. It sounds good, and I liked the songs; but the fact remains
: that it is cut-and-paste approach. Every time I listen to ARRs songs
Isn't that because of the inherent way ARR composes? I mean, he does paste
music on top of music, track on top of track.
: "Rangeela Re":
: I like Asha's voice very much. First of all I was disappointed (I should
: admit that her voice was different and the credit goes to ARR) about her
: voice. It sounded monotonous beat song.
Quite a few nettors on rmim have already mentioned the same effect. And I
had not agreed then ( or now). Is it because Asha is deliberately trying to
change her voice to fit Urmila's. She has done it in the past to a high
degree of success ( Sadhna for "Abhi na jao" and AshaP for "o mere sona re"
obviously come to mind. ).
: "Hai Rama"
: But, the use of low pitch bamboo flute and the regular flute playing
: in the second interlude is great.
: "Yaaro Sun Lo Zara"
: This song is reuse of his song in a Telugu movie. I liked the Telugu
: very much. Without seeing the movie I can only guess this is more like
: Mano). The most disappointing part was the voice of Chithra. It sounds
: like the recording as opposed to her real voice (Chithra's voice is the
: best female voice today in India) and, that has been changed by ARR.
: It may be hard for me to accept that is the way Chithra sang this song.
A question for the nettors here. Chitra looses some her natural quality
while singing in Hindi. There is a slight nasal quality to "Kehna hi kya" as
compared to the softness of "Kannalane", no? Also, the original had
Swarnalata singing in it. Was Chitra trying to get the same flavor (
Swarna's voice is deliciously nasal, has a ring to her voice :) )?
: Also, I do not like when any MD tries to re-use their song from one
: language to another. I feel as if like I was robbed off a chance from
: hearing a new song. I know IR has done this to a larger extent, and it
: is bad IR did this, and now ARR is following the same.
Besides ARR (twice) and I ( how many times?? ), there are others who do this
to. Salil C., SDB and Hemant do come to mind.
: "Kya Kare Kya Na Kare"
I do like Udit and did like him here too. And if you're referring to his
slurring in there, he was trying to sound intoxicated in it, as you might
have guessed.
: May be this song was supposed to be sung by some odd voice like
: Peters Suresh, ARR or the Bombay singer (I don't recall his name)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remo Fernandes?
: "Tanha Tanha Yahan Pe Jeena"
: Asha's voice in this is better. The interludes with flute were good with
: The second interludes reminded me of the interludes for a Tamil song
: "Puthham pudhu bhoomi vendum .."
I don't recognize it that obviously. Would you please clarify. The
interludes for the latter have a heavy violin making a flowing
sound. Somehow reminds me of church :). Tanha Tanha doesn't have those
interludes.
: "Mangta Hai Kya"
ARR's enthu in the voice won me over totally. tho' I started out
criticizing his pronunciations.
And you forgot the eclectic "Spirit of Rangeela"!
Also as to how the snare drum didn't put the right beat, beats me. { pun
very definitely intended :) }
Later,
Ikram.
Venkatramani V
This is the basic problem. It is 'I think'. No offense. There is no
concrete measuring. The only test is public acceptance.
I (also) think that ARR is considered to be far superior in background
scoring. Thiruda Thiruda for example. So was Roja, Gentleman upto
LoveBirds. I have NOT wathced all movies on theatre. But the above I
can say are good, IMO. So was Rangeela. IMO, Rangeela was GREAT!
Once again the above are all opinions.
>--
>Swaminathan.N
Kuntal Shah
Venkat> So I don't understand why we bicker about this. The
Venkat> reception of the mass - who dictate and decide - is the
Venkat> best measure. If ARR can claim such huge compensation and
Venkat> producers line up to sign him, then something is good
Venkat> about him. Comeon, those producers are businessmen and
Venkat> they see that this person can produce.
The way somebody ( Prince, I think ) suggested few fays back; try
replacing ARR with Anu Malik in above paragraph.
I am not sure whether by this I am defending Malik or weakening Venkat's
original argument, though !!
Wait Ikram, let me get my helmet !!
--
Kuntal.
______________________________________________________________________
| humeN kya khabar thi kisi moD par yuuN milega humeN bhi koi ajnabi |
| jise dekhte hi ghaDi do ghaDi maiN badal jayegi yuuN meri zindagi |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Senthil Kumaran
>
> BTW, is the discussion about "Raja Vs Rehman" or "Raja's songs Vs Rehman's
> songs"? Because all the while I see people writing ONLY about the songs.
> Songs take only about 20-25 minutes of a movie. The rest of 1:45 hrs has
> background scoring. And I think Rehman is nowhere near Raja in that area.
>
> Swaminathan.N
>
I Accept with Mr. Swaminathan. ARR can't match Raja in the BGM.
For Ex. I liked the BGM in Muthal Mariyadai(Esp: the Flute Sequence when
Ranjan was found dead !!!),Devar Magan and MAhanadhi.
Lets develope a list of HIS best BGM films !!!
Regards,
Suganthan
Venkatesh Krishnaswamy
article I wrote in this thread. At the outset, I want to clear up
one misconception -- I did not write then and am not now writing
as a "defender" of Rehman against his "attackers" nor do I intend
to compare Rehman with Illaiyaraja with the aim of proving one
greater than the other. Both these guys are awesome and their
music does much more to advertise their talents than my words could.
That said, I'm not above enjoying a good debate about it, so here goes!!!
1) Copying: A number of people have pointed out gently that neither
Illaiyaraja nor Rehman have particularly resisted the temptation
to copy music. While I may be on thinner ground here than I
would like (not being TOO familiar with some of the examples
that have been given), I stick to the gist of my main point. It is
easy to confuse "influence" with "copying" in the absence of the
right context. Take the example of country music. Any one who has
listened to a country music station for a little while will easily
identify the characteristic sound : the twangy guitars, the 4/4
drums with their predictable breaks and rolls, the croony,
syrupy voices. This is a well-defined GENRE and to my knowledge
no country music artiste is accused of copying even though many
songs have the same beats and sounds. Similarly with carnatic music:
would you say a krithi in, say, Mohanam ragam set to adi talam
composed by Tyagaraja is "copied' from another krithi by Muthuswami
dikshitar in the same ragam and talam? Well, no one does!
The point I make is the Illaiyaraja and Rehman tend to "understand"
the characteristics of some genres and apply them in an authentic
way to their compositions. To take the example of "Rambambam Arambam"
from Michael Madana Kamaraj: this song has very "classic" 50's style
rock and roll arrangements (with great piano playing, by the way). It
SHOULD sound familiar. Doesn't mean it is a copy. On the other hand,
take Dhak Dhak karne laga. THAT is a copy -- same tune, same beats.
The distinction I make here is that in this case the 'original'
song is not itself really an instantiation of any musically distinct
genre. (An aside: Indian film music does, in my opinion, support a
few musically distinct genres, but more often is a disorganized
conglomeration of randomly influenced 'unique' pieces of music).
Less sophisticated composers who actually do 'copy' tunes often
do not get the genre right!! Examples: Nazren mili from "Raja"
which is a 'copy' of "Come September" -- the arrangements are so generic
and uninspired that the song loses any real resemblance to classy
original! Similarly, Neele Neele Ambar which is a 'copy' of
Illayanila. Same generic quality in the copy whereas the original
had such inspired, understated arrangements!
Of course, in a few literal instances, I would be prepared to admit
I am wrong, that Illaiyaraja has copied tunes or that Rehman
has copied beats (though I am personally unconvinced by the examples
that have been floated recently since I am not overly familiar with
the 'originals' ) . But, to me, that is irrelevant since the overwhelming
majority of their music is SO original and popular in its own right
that I question the need for them to copy. Contrast this to Anand
Milind or Anu Malik -- these guys despreately need to copy in order
to satisfy their "quota" of "hit" songs! They don't seem to be able to do
it on their own consistently enough.
2) Greatness: Many people have opined that, while they like Rehman's music
and find it refreshingly different, it is premature to call him great.
Fair enough -- the test of time can be passed only when enough time
has passed!! However, I would like to suggest a different metric --
the PROPORTION of "great" songs and their overall impact on contemporary
musical tastes and standards. I get into a purely subjective
area here, but here goes. Rehman has been around for 5 years and has composed
some 80-odd songs for some 20-odd movies. Long enough to not be a
"flavor of the month" in my opinion, especially when you consider that
each "next" offering is fanatically anticipated by a LARGE number of
fans. A huge proportion of his songs have been mega hits. There is
also breathtaking variety in style from carnatic to hindustani to rock
to jazz to tamil village music to ............. And each song is delivered
in that unmistakable Rehman style with his own very distinct and
different idioms (that many try, very unsuccesfully, to COPY). You many
not LIKE all or even most of his songs or styles but you cannot IGNORE
his music when it is playing or DISMISS it as trite. Most importantly,
he is shaping popular music taste in such a way that the public wants
more and his peers feel the pressure to compose to his style. He
doesn't FOLLOW established norms -- he sets the standards. Even his detractors
admit that his music is "different". This, to me, is the hallmark of
genius and will ensure that, even if he were to suddenly retire today
and compose no more, his songs will not be forgotten. Hence, my earlier
point that he has already done enough to have "greatness" bestowed on
him when the time comes! To set the record straight, I thought exactly
the same of Illaiyaraja ~1981-82 when he had been around in the musical
limelight for about 5 years. And, come to think of it -- the Beatles
were a phenomenon barely a year or two after they burst upon the musical
scene. I don't think one has to have composed hundreds of songs over
many many years to be recognized as a "great" -- you can recognize
greatness early enough ( in my case the first time I heard Chinna
Chinna Asai!!!!).
3) Melody: I ruffled quite a few feathers when I suggested that Rehman
is a 'melody' oriented composer (contrasting it to Illaiyaraja's
orchestration-oriented approach). Some have inferred that I have
arrived at this conclusion because Rehman has created quite a few
slow songs with little or no instrumental backing and have rebutted
by saying Illaiyaraja has also done the same. This is not the case,
but before I explain, let me clarify: I don't think Illaiyaraja is
in ANY way the inferior of Rehman in creating melodies. My comment
is based on a more 'technical' observation of the relationship between
the song's melody line and the accompanying arrangements and musical
interludes. (I apologize if I bore people with this, but I tend to
analyze songs to death so please bear with me). Illaiyaraja's melodies
fall broadly into two categories: 'raga' oriented or 'chord
progression' oriented. In both cases, there is a strict discipline
imposed on the way the melody evolves; in the former, by the notes of
the raga and in the latter, by the underlying "mode" of the chord progression.
He almost never deviates from the imposed discipline -- his genius is
in creating new variations on time-tested musical structures. His
particular brand of Indian-western fusion lies in reconciling raga-oriented
melodies with lush and rich harmonic backing arrangements that follow
well known "western" idioms. Rehman, on the other hand, gives freer
reign to his melody without necessarily confining himself to established
chord progressions or to adhere strictly to raga formats. The backing
chord progressions (in many cases, non-progressions!!) tend to be much more
free-form and dictated by the whims of the melody or rhythm (a Rehman
strong point). In many cases, the result can be quite disorienting (which,
I think, accounts for many people feeling that Rehman's music is
"disconnected"). Anyway, enough of the technical stuff -- can continue
by e-mail if anyone is interested.
To address another point: Sandeep has mentioned a few times that he
feels Rehman's music is very "western" despite his use of Indian
instruments, ragas etc. Part of the reason for this perception may be
that Rehman uses a lot of very "western" articulations in both
vocals and instruments. (e.g.s Chikku Bukku Railey and the "Jethro Tull"
flute effects). This is one of the elements in his style of "fusion".
(One of my favorite pieces of this fusion -- the last part of
"Mangta hai kya" from Rangeela where Rehman digs deep into Hindustani
swars while Shweta is screaming her guts out, Pink Floyd style. Another
example: Thee Thee from Thiruda Thiruda). Anyway, it's obviously a matter
of taste here -- one man's musical heaven is another's cacophonic hell.
Regardless, Rehman is clearly exploring uncharted territory and coming
out with results that are, at the very least, intriguing. From a musical
point of view, I find them absolutely mind-boggling. I remember reading
a quote from Hariprasad Chaurasia about Illaiyaraja (after he played on
"Nothing but the Wind") to the effect that it would take many years
for people to fully appreciate the extent of Illaiyaraja's musical reach.
I personally feel the exact same thing is true of Rehman -- except that
his innovations are in totally different aspects of music from those
of Illaiyaraja.
4) Orchestration and Style: A complaint heard about Rehman's music is that
it sounds like "cut-and-paste" music. Well, guess what -- it is! I guess
most of us have read those interviews where he discusses his style of
composing -- gives musicians and singers considerable freedom in the
studio, records everything and then takes what he wants, puts it together
and presto -- a song is born. (In fact, for the Kaadalikka song from
Kadhalan, I believe that Pallavi sang quite a few different stanza
melodies with different lyrics that never made it to the final song!).
Despite this (or maybe because of it?!) I think the songs hang together
just fine. There is a lot of unconventional juxtaposition of styles,
tone colors and rhythms but that is his peculiar charm. (Think of that
brief, very carnatic sounding violin bit at the end of the first stanza
in Chinna Asai - takes you aback the first time you hear it, it being a
"reggae" type song and all that. Another example: the mridangam that
sneaks into the robust dance beat of Thillana from Muthu - just awesome).
Again, this is also a matter of taste. If it doesn't appeal to you - it
doesn't. Again, though, the same qualities -- it is DIFFERENT and
UNEXPECTED -- that can't be ignored.
Another complaint we hear is that Rehman's music is repetitive. Well,
excuse me, it is anything but! The only repetitive quality is that there
is something drastically unexpected in each song! Of course, he has his
signature style (energetic singing; "vocal" interludes, unconventional
rhythms; disconnected bass lines; string-pad backing chords; refusal to
use a rhythm guitar to provide backing for songs; singleton tablas,
mridangams and flutes; no dholaks ever etc. etc. etc.). But, amazingly
enough, he has managed to produce something different in each movie to
stay ahead of the boredom curve.
To return briefly to Illaiyaraja at this point -- I don't believe he
has deteriorated as a composer. Some of the music from his recent movies
are vintage Illaiyaraja. (Anybody heard that exquisite half-English
half-Tamil song by Usha Iyer in Naadodi Thendral?) But I think Sandeep's
point is valid here -- he needs to produce something different to catch
the public ear again. Inevitably, that time will come for Rehman when
his offerings no longer catch the public's attention. Even if that day is
tomorrow, I believe he has done enough to be recognized as a great composer.
Venky Krishnaswamy
P.S. Sandeep: I really enjoyed your post -- very detailed and brought back a
whole bunch of Illaiyaraja nostalgia.
New User
background music brought me to tears. Raja, has taken the tune Thenpaandi
seemayilae and expressed it so beautifully in back ground sequences. The same
goes with countless movies (Johny,Ullasa paravaigal,Nenjathai killathae etc)
whose BGM,s are "outstanding". I think that ARR is the king of "sound
engineering & mixing", while Raja's melodies haunt forever!
Anandkumar
Ravi Krishna
Both the articles were well researched. Since I started the
thread I would like to add the following. It's my opinion only
and don't take it personally.
I agree with you. Both Iraja and ARR are highly original save
for a couple of songs which Iraja has copied. The song
"Rampamba" from MMMK has a starting line very similar to an old
english song. To me it appears to be a copy ( only the opening
refrain). So far I don't know about ARR copying or not.
I feel that it's still premature to call ARR great. What's more
I think his quality is defintly declining. Indian film music
has always seen prolific composers where giving 200+ films is
not something unheard of. Against that yardstick ARR has to
prove himself. What I find disappointing about ARR is that he is
already getting stale ( < 50 films ) inspite of the fact that
he is choosy. Last year I did not like his songs barring very
few. Couple of songs in Rangella and Muthu. Compared to his
songs till 1994 his current songs are not that good.
Iraja on the other hand was consistently giving good
songs till the end of 80's. Moreover a good Iraja song is still
enjoyable. I can recollect hundreds of songs of iraja which I
can still listen. In film music real greatness is found only
with the passage of time. If a particular song still appeals
after years then that song is great. Take R D Burman for
example. Even though many of his western pop songs were hit
he has given some fantastic indian scores which are still
listenable. Only that counts in the long run. It's more than
20 years since the great S D Burman died, his songs are still vey
much listenable. Iraja too has given superb songs in his
initial years ( before 1986). Against such melodiou numbers I
am sorry ARR suffers badly. ARR's best to me sounds average.
Again there are couple of exceptions. Take Kadalan songs for
example. Today I can't listen to any of it's songs excpting
Ennavale by Unni Krishnan. The songs which made ARR so
popular are essentially catch songs which one tends to
forget after some time. I don't find ARR songs melodious
barring very few as in the case of "duet".
ARR orchestra is indeed wondeful. But again his orchestra
is quite repetitive even though he has given < 50 films.
Iraja has detoriated considerably. But even now he can
come up with some good songs as proved in Avatharam. There is
another good song of him. It's a film called "Nandanterav"
starring Karthik and Sitara. There is a duet song by SPB and ?.
It goes like "Velli nilava .." The song and the stanzas in
particular were of vintage Iraja. I saw this song in SUN TV
and liked it very much.
I was listening to Iraja How to name it and Nothing but wind. I
wonder how can anybody compare ARR with Iraja. ARR has to take
lessons from Iraja on fusion music .
Any comments.
Regards
S. Ravi Krishna
rkri...@informix.com
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
[Some valid points about great melodious songs deleted]
> It's a film called "Nandanterav"
> starring Karthik and Sitara. There is a duet song by SPB and ?.
> It goes like "Velli nilava .." The song and the stanzas in
> particular were of vintage Iraja. I saw this song in SUN TV
> and liked it very much.
You may be from Delhi, but before you attack Tamilians etc,
just a friendly suggestion - pray learn some Tamil :-), since you
claim to have Tamil roots. To my knowledge, there's no such Tamil word as
'Nadanterav'. Only when I saw the next few lines did I realize you meant
a *Tamil* film.
'Nandanterav' sounds like a Hindiwallah's mutilation of some word
which remotely sounds like 'nandhavana thEru' to me. I don't know if
this is the movie you meant (I don't care to watch recent Tamil
movies, since I think most of them are trash, but I'm digressing).
No offence !
Cheers,
Gayathri.
NEERAJ N. KARHADE
I was looking for the words of a quavalli by Rafi. I think the name
was isharon ko agar samjho raaz ko raaz rahne do. Evidently, it is
also quite humorous.. I would appreciate it if someone could email me the
name of the movie and words or some info on how I can get the above.
The song is not present in Avinash Chopde's ITRANS songbook.
Please email replies to either aj...@mit.edu or arch...@mit.edu.
-Thanks a lot
Neeraj
