DMK diktat to dump Sanskrit prayer at Hindu temples raises controversy
Mo
Yes let the DMK tell the Muslims to stop praying in Arabic
or the Sikhs to stop using Bihari and see how many Jihads
and halagulas they have to fight !.
These pseudo seculars who pretend they are atheists and not
Hindus have the guts only to interfere with Hindu practices
and not take on the monotheists.
I still support prayers in local languages. Let the people
understand what they are promising a non existent God.
Arul Singam
Braamanaal ellaam enthaan ippadi aathira padraalo theriyala..
ada ambi.. intha manushaal enna solraalna.. nokku therincha paashayilaiye
poojaiya pannudaa... ethukkuda nokkum puriyaatha, mathavaalukkum
puriyaatha paashaithaan venumnu adam pudikkire...
nokku business keddu podumnu payapidriyaaa?
ambi... ikkada chooodu...
I wish Thamil Kudimagan really implements this law.
I am of the belief that neither the muslims nor the christians
would go against a law that would make them pray in their own
languages. After all, who wouldn't want to know what he/she's saying
to God when he/she prays. (Most christians are already doing that).
It's just the braamanaals that dont want to do this for business purposes.
jit (j...@unforgettable.com) wrote:
> [Rediff Logo]
>
> January 30,
> 1998
>
> [Dr Dr Viswanatha Sivacharyar in the backdrop of the Kapaleeswara temple]
> [For whom the priests chant!]
> Shobha Warrier
> Om thath savithuravrenyam, Bhargo devasya dheemahi
> Dheeyoyonna prachodayath, Om thath savithurvarenyam
> Can you feel the sublime magnificence of Samskrutham? Can
> the language fanatics achieve the beauty of these lines in
> any other language? Of course not!" hissed a Sanskrit lover
> angrily. Irrespective of the caste they belong to,
> irrespective of the class they belong to, the rest of the
> Sanskrit bhakta (devotee) clan echoed similar sentiments.
> It was a strange reaction. For the Dravidian movement is
> deep-rooted in the psyche of the state of Tamil Nadu and
> Tamilians, as a whole, are militantly passionate about their
> language and culture. And it was expected that the Tamil
> people would sing hosannas about state Tamil Development
> Minister Tamilkudi Magan's instruction that all temples in
> Tamil Nadu would henceforth perform archanas (prayers) in
> Tamil, instead of the original Sanskrit.
> But 99 per cent of those I spoke to (and I spoke to nearly
> 50 people) were none too happy with the interference of
> politicians in religious matters. And they expressed both
> their hostility and unhappiness in very strong terms.
> It was a sentiment that had been simmering for a
> while. For, the moment the DMK government came
> into power, they indulged in a changing spree.
> And changed the names of everything -- from the
> name boards of the shops, to the names of the streets, to
> the name of Madras itself -- from English to Tamil.
> Each move took place with a vengeance; it was as if the
> local language was the panacea, as if the local language
> would send the state rocketing into the plane of prosperity.
> Once they changed the name of the city, they focused their
> attention on the Hindu temples. And began by instructing the
> priests to conduct the archana in Tamil so that devotees
> could understand what was being conveyed to God.
> Suresh, a regular at his local temple, is furious at this
> ham-handed political interference in religion. "Devotion is
> not bound by language. What is important is the satisfaction
> a devotee gets by listening to the chanting of the mantras
> (hymns) in Sanskrit. No other language in the world can
> imitate the resonance of this chanting or replicate its
> soul-stirring effect. This decision by the government is
> utter nonsense. How is it that these people, who do not
> believe in God, are suddenly interested in what happens
> within the precincts of a temple? They should leave these
> matters to those who believe in the Almighty."
> On a more practical note, he strongly feels tradition should
> not be dishonoured or abandoned. Besides, he believes none
> of the people who go to a temple actually listen to the
> mantras since they are too immersed in communicating their
> problems to God.
> This is where the chief priest of the
> Kapaleeswara temple at Mylapore, one of the
> oldest temples in Madras, disagrees with
> Sunder, "I am a retired Sanskrit professor,"
> says Dr Viswanatha Sivacharyar. "But I still feel that my
> great great-grandfather erred by performing the archana in
> Sanskrit. What I am doing now is correcting his mistake."
> He cites his reasons. "You pray -- mathru devo bhava, pithru
> devo bhava, acharaya devo bhava… But what is your mother
> tongue, your mathru bhasha? Tamil. You should first pray in
> your mother tongue."
> Not many whose mathru bhasha is Tamil agree with the chief
> priest. Subramaniam, for one, angrily challenged the
> political parties. "Yes, there is only one God and you can
> pray to God in any language. But why do you want to change
> the existing language? I don't understand why they have
> suddenly taken this decision.
> "See, according to them, there is no God, the deity is only
> a stone. So why do they interfere in our beliefs and
> affairs? Are we harming them by praying in Sanskrit? This is
> because the Dravidian parties believe that Sanskrit is the
> language of the Brahmins. It is one of the oldest languages
> in the world and all over, especially in Germany, there is a
> renewed interest in Sanskrit.
> "Let me challenge the politicians, can they interfere in the
> affairs of Muslims? Can they do the same thing in a mosque?
> Can they ask the Muslims to say their prayers to Tamil? Let
> them do that first and then come to a temple. There are so
> many things to be done in this state. Why can't they
> concentrate on achieving that instead?"
> Subramaniam's wife, Jaya, joins the
> tirade. "The essence of the words are
> lost when Sanskrit is translated into
> Tamil because Tamil is just not as rich
> a language, not does it have as many alphabets. I know
> Sanskrit, and Tamil is my mother tongue. But when I read
> certain translations, I find my language lacking in many
> things. So, it is better to do the archana in Sanskrit
> itself. The truth is, neither the priests nor the devotees
> want Tamil. Now it is a question of what is more important
> -- the obstinacy of the politicians or the satisfaction of
> the devotees?"
> Dr Sivacharyar countered the argument by saying that none of
> the shlokas are translated from Sanskrit. Instead, they are
> taken from an original source called Thirumuraithiruvasakam.
> "So, the question of using wrong words in place of the
> original does not arise at all," he said.
> But the devotees were aghast to hear the names of
> Karunanidhi, Tamilkudi Magan and certain hymns in praise of
> the party in the Tamil version of the archana.
> "Let me make one thing very clear," said the chief priest.
> "The government is not coercing or compelling us to do the
> archana in Tamil. We do so only at the insistence of the
> devotees. As for reciting the names of Karunanidhi and
> Tamilkudi Magan during the archana, do you know Lord Shiva
> is called Karunanidhi and Lord Muruga, Tamilkudi Magan?
> Anyway, we have removed all those names from the mantras
> now. The devotees must understand that we are not doing
> anything to please Karunanidhi. And I am, at this moment,
> referring to the chief minister and not Lord Siva?"
> Sceptical devotees, though, were not convinced.
> Photographs: Sriram
> Selvaraj Continued...
> Pappamma believes in God, but does not find the time to
> perform poojas or visit temples. Her busy life
> revolves around her tea shop,
> her only source of living.
> "Though I am very progressive in
> my outlook, I feel that we have
> to leave certain things as they are. Tradition, for example.
> Why do we follow traditions? Because we like them. What I
> cannot understand is the attitude of the DMK. They call
> themselves atheists. Then why should they interfere in the
> affairs of those who believe in God?"
> Saroja, a flower-seller, seems rather confused about the
> whole affair. She started off by saying, 'Tamil is our
> language, so the Iyers (read priests) should do the archana
> in the language we know and not in the language that they
> know." She thought for a moment, then changed her mind. "On
> second thoughts, nobody has the right to change tradition.
> These politicians should do their work and not interfere in
> our relationship with God."
> Panchali, who sells fruits in a residential
> area, criticised the politicians severely for
> entering this prohibited area. "I am against
> any politician deciding what is to be done in a
> temple. These people do not believe in God, so why should
> they create such confusion? Politics is different and
> religion is different, nobody should mix the two."
> But she strongly believes the archana should only be
> performed in a language the devotees want, know and
> understand. "There is only one God and God understands all
> languages including English, Hindi and Telugu. Still, I feel
> that the priests should chant the mantras only in Tamil. We
> understand Tamil, not the language the priests use. By the
> way, what is the name of the language?"
> Vijaya, a young housemaid, visits temples regularly, and
> asks for archanas. "Are you telling me that they do not
> chant the mantras in Tamil? I never knew that. I thought it
> was Tamil. I never understood what they said, but I thought
> that was because I could not hear them clearly. The priests
> are inside the inner sanctum while we stand outside. So, it
> doesn't matter to me whether they do it in Tamil or some
> other language. But I like the tune of the mantras. It is
> like good music. That is why I do not want anyone
> to change it."
> Though Dr Sivacharyar claims that this is an
> attempt by the government to enlighten the people, the
> latter do not seem to think so. The priests themselves admit
> there are not many devotees who ask for the archana to be
> performed in Tamil.
> Except for the 70-year-old Dr Sivacharyar, none of the other
> priests were willing to talk to the press. "Naturally, the
> priests are scared to talk," said someone, who spoke on
> condition of anonymity. "Recently, a priest was quoted in a
> newspaper saying that poojas should be done only in
> Sanskrit. Do you know what happened to him? He was
> suspended. So it is question of the poor priests' survival,
> you know!"
> Photographs: Sriram
> Selvaraj
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
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P.Siddharth
Arul Singam wrote:
>
> I wish Thamil Kudimagan really implements this law.
> I am of the belief that neither the muslims nor the christians
> would go against a law that would make them pray in their own
> languages. After all, who wouldn't want to know what he/she's saying
> to God when he/she prays. (Most christians are already doing that).
> It's just the braamanaals that dont want to do this for business purposes.
\
You also believe in tooth fairy.Just try to change the Arabic prayers to
tamil. DMK will never do that as DMK is not anti-moslem. It does not
matter if the people pray in Tamil or swahili but the government has no
right to decide that. People who pray can decide on the language.
r...@best.com
In soc.culture.indian jit <j...@unforgettable.com> wrote:
: Pappamma believes in God, but does not find the time to
: Saroja, a flower-seller, seems rather confused about the
: Panchali, who sells fruits in a residential
: Vijaya, a young housemaid, visits temples regularly, and
Pappamma, Panchali ! Are you sure they are real people ?! :-)
: Dr Viswanatha Sivacharyar. "But I still feel that my
: great great-grandfather erred by performing the archana in
: Sanskrit. What I am doing now is correcting his mistake."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Dr Sivacharyar .... by saying that none of
: the shlokas are translated from Sanskrit. Instead, they are
: taken from an original source called Thirumuraithiruvasakam.
: "So, the question of using wrong words in place of the
: original does not arise at all," he said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a wonderful point. !!
: "Let me challenge the politicians, can they interfere in the
: affairs of Muslims? Can they do the same thing in a mosque?
: Can they ask the Muslims to say their prayers to Tamil? Let
: them do that first and then come to a temple. There are so
: many things to be done in this state. Why can't they
: concentrate on achieving that instead?"
Majority of muslims may not be interested in saying prayer in Tamil.
But majority of tamils would be interested in doing their prayer
in Tamil.
Few Brahmins you surveyed don't have the right to speak for
the whole Hindu Tamil community.
If you take your survey only among "Brahmins" you might find the
wrong results. But you have to understand that, tamil community
is more than just brahmins.
97+% of tamils going to temple don't know a shit about what is
being said in the prayer. By understanding what is being said,
they have increased probability of having better religious life.
Come on guys, you know it.. Tamil prayers is the right thing
to do.
Rajah Skandarajah
Mo wrote:
>
> Yes let the DMK tell the Muslims to stop praying in Arabic
> or the Sikhs to stop using Bihari and see how many Jihads
> and halagulas they have to fight !.
> These pseudo seculars who pretend they are atheists and not
> Hindus have the guts only to interfere with Hindu practices
> and not take on the monotheists.
You answered your own question. If telling the muslims or the
Sikhs would lead to jihads and halagulas, then it makes
it clear that the muslims and Sikhs prefer to stick to their
respective languages. But, change the language from Sanskrit
to tamil in TN temples and the only people who would object
are the Brahmin farts, less than 10% of the population that
goes to pray at the temples, and 0% of whom put any money
into the temples.
Islam and Hinduism in TN are two different
religions when it comes to practice. In Islam,
the people themselves pray and understand what they are saying.
In Hinduism, a Brahmin chants a load of shit which 0.05%
of those in temple understand. The Brahmin might even be cursing at
the god while the people look in awe and pray don't know a thing.
Now go and ask the brahmin what he said and if he could
tell you what it means or teach you what it means, and he
will ask what your caste is.
We have to remove this stupidity from TN.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
Mo wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
> .Islam and Hinduism in TN are two different
> religions when it comes to practice. In Islam,
> the people themselves pray and understand what they are
> saying.<
> understands that ?
Huh? In their everyday prayers, when the Muslims
carry out their prayers, are you telling me that they
don't know what it means? I don't think so. I once
had a muslim room-mate who explained what his prayers meant
to me. At NO POINT IN THE DAY do the Hindus in TN
understand what a Brahmin says.
> Not even the Arabas themselves. The point
> is that these atheist pigdogs who decry Hinduism the world's
> most tolerant , progressive and colorful relgion at every
> oppurtunity would not have the GUTS to dictate to Muslims or
> Sikhs .
No. The point is that if the TN population really cared,
they would put up a resistance to what the DMK
do, and the DMK would not even think of
changing anything. Do you think if the majority
of TN people wanted to keep sanskrit in temples
with a passion and vengeance like they display for
tamil in TN, the DMK would even think
of making changes? That's the point.
Rajah.
P.Siddharth
Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
>
> No. The point is that if the TN population really cared,
> they would put up a resistance to what the DMK
> do, and the DMK would not even think of
> changing anything. Do you think if the majority
> of TN people wanted to keep sanskrit in temples
> with a passion and vengeance like they display for
> tamil in TN, the DMK would even think
> of making changes? That's the point.
>
>
> Rajah.
People should have a right to pray in the language they want. If they
want Tamil fine but there may be some who may want to pray in Sanskrit
and they should be allowed to pray in Sanskrit. It is none of
Governments buisiness. It is difficult for tamilians to understand as
98% claim that they are backward.There are a few people who understand
Sanskrit and DMK Government has no right to force them to pray in Tamil.
It is called fascism. Rajah being one of the 98% cannot understand that.
Sanskrit has nothing to do with caste but again how can one explain to a
moron.
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
.Islam and Hinduism in TN are two different
religions when it comes to practice. In Islam,
the people themselves pray and understand what they are
saying.<
What rubbish ! In Islam they pray in ancient Arabic and who
is that these atheist pigdogs who decry Hinduism the world's
most tolerant , progressive and colorful relgion at every
oppurtunity would not have the GUTS to dictate to Muslims or
Sikhs .
and Muslim Tamils to worship in Tamil .
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Huh? In their everyday prayers, when the Muslims
carry out their prayers, are you telling me that they
don't know what it means? I don't think so. I once
had a muslim room-mate who explained what his prayers meant
to me.<
Are you being deliberately ignorant ? Dont you know that in
Madras schools they teach nothing but the Quran in Arabic
which the kids dont understand ?
And that is true in Tamil Nadu as in Pakistan . At least the
Hindus pick up the occasional Sanskrit words and the priests
translate the words at weddings etc. anyway.
By your logic it makes even more sense to force the Muslim
Tamils to learn the Quran and pray in Tamil , you just dont
have the guts to force them to do it while the long
suffering peaceful Hindus will put up with these dictats.
Good will come out of this as it will stop people converting
if they can understand . Many Hindus became Sikhs , and
regret it now , in Punjab because the Sardars prayed in
easier to understand Bihari in prayers and not Sanskrit as
in Hindu temples which was more difficult .
what I want to know from you is why the pseudoseculars do
not have the courage to dictate to Muslim Tamils to learn
the Quran and pray in Tamil ?
Devendran
Arul Singam wrote:
>
> Braamanaal ellaam enthaan ippadi aathira padraalo theriyala..
> ada ambi.. intha manushaal enna solraalna.. nokku therincha paashayilaiye
> poojaiya pannudaa... ethukkuda nokkum puriyaatha, mathavaalukkum
> puriyaatha paashaithaan venumnu adam pudikkire...
> nokku business keddu podumnu payapidriyaaa?
> ambi... ikkada chooodu...
Dey ambi! samskritham dEva bAshai. DEvaLukku avA bAshaile chonnathAn
puriyum. Avalte manushA bAshaile pechalAmA. Abhishtu! Ithu kUta
theriyalaiyA. Alattame vAyai mUdindu iru. IllAta ummachi kOvichupppAr.
Veerappa Ramalingam
P.Siddharth wrote in message <34D3FC...@mail.idt.net>...
>Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
>>
>> No. The point is that if the TN population really cared,
>> they would put up a resistance to what the DMK
>> do, and the DMK would not even think of
>> changing anything. Do you think if the majority
>> of TN people wanted to keep sanskrit in temples
>> with a passion and vengeance like they display for
>> tamil in TN, the DMK would even think
>> of making changes? That's the point.
>>
>>
>> Rajah.
>
>People should have a right to pray in the language they want. If they
>want Tamil fine but there may be some who may want to pray in Sanskrit
>and they should be allowed to pray in Sanskrit.
This is what the DMK governement is saying. The primary language will be
Tamil and the secondary one will be Sanskrit.
>It is none of
>Governments buisiness.
Agreed. But no one else has the authority to enforce it.
>It is difficult for tamilians to understand as
>98% claim that they are backward.
What does this crap mean, wiseguy?
>There are a few people who understand
>Sanskrit and DMK Government has no right to force them to pray in Tamil.
>It is called fascism. Rajah being one of the 98% cannot understand that.
He seems to have a much better understanding than you do.
>
>Sanskrit has nothing to do with caste but again how can one explain to a
>moron.
If you think Sankrit has nothing to do with caste, you have no clue.
And as you said, how can one explain it a moron?
Rajah Skandarajah
P.Siddharth wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
> >
> > No. The point is that if the TN population really cared,
> > they would put up a resistance to what the DMK
> > do, and the DMK would not even think of
> > changing anything. Do you think if the majority
> > of TN people wanted to keep sanskrit in temples
> > with a passion and vengeance like they display for
> > tamil in TN, the DMK would even think
> > of making changes? That's the point.
> >
> >
> > Rajah.
>
> People should have a right to pray in the language they want. If they
> want Tamil fine but there may be some who may want to pray in Sanskrit
> and they should be allowed to pray in Sanskrit.
> Governments buisiness.
Oh yes it is. In a democracy, majority rules. Temples
are public institutions and therefore "some" does not count.
If "some" want the brahmins to conduct poojas in Arabic, will
they do it?
> It is difficult for tamilians to understand as
> 98% claim that they are backward.There are a few people who understand
> Sanskrit and DMK Government has no right to force them to pray in Tamil.
No one is forcing anyone to "pray" in tamil. But poojas
and so on should be conducted in the language the majority
understands.
I find it hilarious that 99.999% of the people who give money
to Brahmins in temples to perform the required poojas
do not understand sanskrit and yet, they are performed
in sanskrit.
> It is called fascism. Rajah being one of the 98% cannot understand that.
Do you know what fascism means?
For a person who cannot spell "reservations" properly, how can
I expect him to understand the word "fascism".
> Sanskrit has nothing to do with caste but again how can one explain to a
> moron.
Who said it did? And if so, why are the brahmins and
mutts in TN caste conscious regarding who they teach
sanskrit or mantrams to?
Most brahmins are fascist by nature and therefore
cannot understand the word. They simply use it as
a way to show off that they know English.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
Mo wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>
> >Huh? In their everyday prayers, when the Muslims
> carry out their prayers, are you telling me that they
> don't know what it means? I don't think so. I once
> had a muslim room-mate who explained what his prayers meant
> to me.<
> Are you being deliberately ignorant ? Dont you know that in
> Madras schools they teach nothing but the Quran in Arabic
> which the kids dont understand ?
The kids don't understand? They may not know Arabic,
but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
when they pray, they know what they are saying.
> And that is true in Tamil Nadu as in Pakistan . At least the
> Hindus pick up the occasional Sanskrit words and the priests
> translate the words at weddings etc. anyway.
Huh? In TN? Now you are the one who is being ignorant.
> By your logic it makes even more sense to force the Muslim
> Tamils to learn the Quran and pray in Tamil , you just dont
> have the guts to force them to do it while the long
> suffering peaceful Hindus will put up with these dictats.
You are bringing the argument back to the first point I made.
In Islam, the people themselves pray. In Hinduism, people
give money to a brahmin to act as an intermediary between
them and the god. Now, that means that the Brahmin is
praying on behalf of the people. Now if the people don't
understand a word of what is said, does it not seem
utterly ridiculous?
Now if the priest wishes to pray for himself in Sanskrit,
go ahead!!!!! He can pray in French or Swahili for all I
care.
But when he is praying on behalf of people who have
given him money to do so, he better pray in the language
that they understand.
> Good will come out of this as it will stop people converting
> if they can understand .
> Many Hindus became Sikhs , and
> regret it now ,
I wonder what the Sikhs have to say about this.
> in Punjab because the Sardars prayed in
> easier to understand Bihari in prayers and not Sanskrit as
> in Hindu temples which was more difficult .
> what I want to know from you is why the pseudoseculars do
> not have the courage to dictate to Muslim Tamils to learn
> the Quran and pray in Tamil ?
I have been repeating the answer over and over again. Because
the majority of muslim tamils do not want to pray in tamil.
That is not the same with the Hindus. They do not mind, and
some even prefer that the priest speaks in Tamil, so they
understand what is being said.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
Devendran wrote:
>
> Arul Singam wrote:
> >
> > Braamanaal ellaam enthaan ippadi aathira padraalo theriyala..
> > ada ambi.. intha manushaal enna solraalna.. nokku therincha paashayilaiye
> > poojaiya pannudaa... ethukkuda nokkum puriyaatha, mathavaalukkum
> > puriyaatha paashaithaan venumnu adam pudikkire...
> > nokku business keddu podumnu payapidriyaaa?
> > ambi... ikkada chooodu...
>
> puriyum.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
You guys really believe that don't you? I once
was told by a brahmin that although English is
an international language, Sanskrit is an intergalactic
language!!!!
After I laughed at him and gave him a good
slap, he told me that some swami from a mutt in Udupi,
Karnataka, told him so. I can't believe that in this day
and age, such stupidity roams around.
Rajah.
M.Ranganathan
In article <34D4C0...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu>,
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
I am all in favour of Puja being conducted in a language that people
understand. It is in the interest of the survival of Hinduism that
this be the case. It is a disservice to the beauty of the hymn that it
be recited in a tounge nobody understands. HOWEVER, THAT IS NOT THE
POINT that is being debated. The point is SHOULD THE STATE DECIDE THIS
OR SHOULD THE PATRONS OF TEMPLES DECIDE THIS. In my view, there is no
argument. The only people that should decide this are the patrons of
temples.
>
>Oh yes it is. In a democracy, majority rules. Temples
Ahem... I suppose if the majority "rules" then it would be OK to go
the next step and tell people what religion they should follow?
In a democracy, the majority does not rule. The majority merely elects
the government. Fundamental human rights and separation of "church and
state" take precedence over any whims that the majority may have. If
theres any lesson to be learned from the Lankan mess, at least you
should understand this much.
>are public institutions and therefore "some" does not count.
Temples are not public institutions. They should not recieve public
funds and they must not be under the control of the state. This is the
fundamental mistake of the Indian setup.
I would feel insulted if the US govt took my tax $ and gave it to a
church. I dont see why any Indian Muslim or Sikh or Christian should
tolerate his tax money going to a temple.
Ranga.
Rajah Skandarajah
Mo wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
> >They may not know Arabic,
> but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
> when they pray, they know what they are saying.<
Ah.....There we go. I would like to see a Brahmin
explain what the Sanskrit words mean to anyone be he
a Shudra or not who comes to pray at the temple.
> What right does the govt have to FORCE Hindus to do it ?
> What's to stop the people learning the meaning of prayers as
> the Muslims do ?
> Maybe the govt can give them an incentive rather than force
> them. As for Arabic why dont you practise equality and make
> Tamil the primary language in mosques and Arabic the
> secondary.
You seem to be a slow fool. I keep repeating the
same points over and over again, and yet you
keep repeating your same garbage over and over again.
> Face it these pseudosecular atheists are cowards and
> dont want a bombing campaign against them . Thank your lucky
> stars that the much maligned 'backward' Hindus are peaceful
> people and their religion doesnt teach them to kill Kafirs
> like you !
These 'backward' Hindus would start a bombing campaign
if someone tried to remove Tamil from TN.
Get it yet?
Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a rats ass
for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
> but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
> when they pray, they know what they are saying.<
>
> and it is NOT explained to them.
Give me a break. I have yet to come across a tamil
muslim who prays in Arabic and does not know what he is
saying.
> Again why dont you even
> attempt to make a law to force Muslims to alter their
> religious instructions and see what happens ?
Because I know what will happen. The same thing
that would happen if someone tried to remove Tamil
from TN. I have answered this question of yours for
the 6th time using 6 different answers. If you
plan on asking me again, don't. I won't answer
it.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
Mo wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
> >Because I know what will happen. The same thing
> that would happen if someone tried to remove Tamil
> from TN.<
> Sanskrit and TAMIL Muslims using Arabic and neither person
> or the majority understand the lingo.
I don't think so. The majority of muslims know what they
are saying.
> Why do you
> discriminate between the two ? Why not equal laws for TAMIL
> Muslims and TAMIL Hindus ?
Because tamil Muslims prefer Arabic. Tamil Hindus (90%) don't
have any preference, infact, most prefer tamil.
> Because the Tamil Muslims would have you for breakfast if
> yout tried to stop them praying in Arabic -as the recent
> bombings in Tamil Nadu proved while with the Tamil Hindus
> you can bully them .
You are repeating the same garbage over and over
again.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
> for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
> dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.<
> why do they go to these temples and pray in Sanskrit.
That's just it. They don't pray in Sanskrit. The 90%
tamils pray in Tamil. They don't pray in Sanskrit.
> Why do you give a rat's ass about Arabic and let them use it
> in their prayers and not about Sanskrit ?
I am not supposed to. If the Muslim Tamils did not
give a rats ass about Arabic, do you think they
would oppose the removal of Arabic from their prayers?
> You cannot make a blanket statement that all Muslim Tamils
> understand all the Arabic prayers while all Hindu Tamils
> dont understand the Sanskrit prayers.
I can say this much with certainty, more than 90% of tamils
don't understand what a Brahmin chants in Sansrit in a temple.
More than 90% of Muslims when they say their prayers know what they
are saying.
> I do favour this regionalisation of prayers in local
> languages - people should understand what they are saying
> and its good that the Tamil Nadu govt has done it for Hindus
> and should now have the courage to do the same for the
> Muslims.
The Muslims prefer Arabic to Tamil. The Tamil Hindus (90%)
don't have any such preference, infact, some prefer tamil.
Rajah.
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>They may not know Arabic,
but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
So why not make the Brahmins explain the Sanskrit words .
What's to stop the people learning the meaning of prayers as
the Muslims do ?
Maybe the govt can give them an incentive rather than force
them. As for Arabic why dont you practise equality and make
Tamil the primary language in mosques and Arabic the
secondary.
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>The kids don't understand? They may not know Arabic,
but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
when they pray, they know what they are saying.<
In Madrasa schools they learn the Quran in Arabic by rote
and it is NOT explained to them. Again why dont you even
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Because I know what will happen. The same thing
that would happen if someone tried to remove Tamil
from TN.<
You are being evasive again. Here we have TAMIL Hindus using
Sanskrit and TAMIL Muslims using Arabic and neither person
discriminate between the two ? Why not equal laws for TAMIL
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a rats ass
for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.<
If the 90% of Tamils dont give a rat's ass about Sanskrit
they can build their won and pray in Tamil or get on the
boards of these temples ?
scared of the Muslims.
understand all the Arabic prayers while all Hindu Tamils
dont understand the Sanskrit prayers.
Arul Singam
> I am all in favour of Puja being conducted in a language that people
> understand. It is in the interest of the survival of Hinduism that
> this be the case. It is a disservice to the beauty of the hymn that it
> be recited in a tounge nobody understands. HOWEVER, THAT IS NOT THE
> POINT that is being debated. The point is SHOULD THE STATE DECIDE THIS
> OR SHOULD THE PATRONS OF TEMPLES DECIDE THIS. In my view, there is no
> argument. The only people that should decide this are the patrons of
> temples.
Agreed. So you want to see each patron go and slap the brahmanaal
conducting the pooja and ask him to do it in Tamil? I thought this
would be much better. Never in their life time would the brahmanaal
want to switch to Tamil, as that means losing their business in full.
And never have i seen the Tamils of Tamil Nadu try to do good to
themselves, with determination to fight the forces that hinder their
growth. They have to be constantly told by some one like Super star
kovinthasaami or Jegathaambigai Jeyalaleethaa.
So it's better this way. Let the govt impose something that had
been there all the while before the brahmanaal changed the system
in Tamil Nadu. If the Tamils of Tamil Nadu feel that they want to
go back to Sanskrit, that'd be their right.
> >
> >Oh yes it is. In a democracy, majority rules. Temples
> Ahem... I suppose if the majority "rules" then it would be OK to go
> the next step and tell people what religion they should follow?
> In a democracy, the majority does not rule. The majority merely elects
> the government. Fundamental human rights and separation of "church and
> state" take precedence over any whims that the majority may have. If
> theres any lesson to be learned from the Lankan mess, at least you
> should understand this much.
> >are public institutions and therefore "some" does not count.
> Temples are not public institutions. They should not recieve public
> funds and they must not be under the control of the state. This is the
> fundamental mistake of the Indian setup.
> I would feel insulted if the US govt took my tax $ and gave it to a
> church. I dont see why any Indian Muslim or Sikh or Christian should
> tolerate his tax money going to a temple.
> Ranga.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Brijnandan Singh Dehiya
In article <34D52F...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu>,
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Mo wrote:
>>
>> Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>> >Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a rats ass
>> for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
>> dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.<
>> If the 90% of Tamils dont give a rat's ass about Sanskrit
>> why do they go to these temples and pray in Sanskrit.
>
>tamils pray in Tamil. They don't pray in Sanskrit.
If no one cares for Sanskrit, why the hostility towards those who pray in
Sanskrit? Hostility indicates concern, not apathy.
Brij
----
V.C.Vijayaraghavan
Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
> I find it hilarious that 99.999% of the people who give money
> to Brahmins in temples to perform the required poojas
> do not understand sanskrit and yet, they are performed
> in sanskrit.
>
It is even more hilarious that an allegedly atheistic govt should bother
about in what language prayers sgould be conducted. It is even more
ridiculous that self-proclaimed buddhists like Rajah Skandarajah should
bother about how the hindus conduct their affairs
V.C.Vijayaraghavan
Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
> Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a rats ass
> for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
> dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
>
> Rajah.
Rajah, as a Buddhist, you did not prevent the wholesale massacre of
Tamils in Srilanka by SL Buddhist forces. On the one hand , you keep
kissing the boots of the forces that killed, maimed, sheeled Tamils. On
tn etop of it, you are not even an Indian. Why bother about what happens
in India and that too to Hindus, which you are decidedly are not one.
So, don't talk of "we" as if you are one of Hindus
Devendran
AdEdE! Ippadi mlechcha bashai pukazharELE! kaN avinchu poidum. BagavAn
kitte mannippu kettukkungO. parihArathukku oru chatha rudramO dEpa
pUjaiO pannungO! nAn vEnumnA oru nalla veda vithA Acharyale ErpAdu
panrEn. Dakshinaiyai mattum dollarle koduthudungO.
Devendran
Mo wrote:
>
> Yes let the DMK tell the Muslims to stop praying in Arabic
> or the Sikhs to stop using Bihari and see how many Jihads
> and halagulas they have to fight !.
> These pseudo seculars who pretend they are atheists and not
> Hindus have the guts only to interfere with Hindu practices
> and not take on the monotheists.
> understand what they are promising a non existent God.
You guys seem to be missing the point!
Muslims are muslims first and anything else next!
Has'nt the ethnic struggle in SL proven it!
No true muslim will do anything against the edicts of Islam. Islam
forbids praying in any language other than arabic (their deva bhashai).
In hinduism there are no such edicts except for the recitation of the
vedas. Christians accept all languages.
In spite of the fundamentalism one should appreciate the steadfastness
of the isalm followers. It is the only religion that maintains its
pristine purity (Add lingusitic purity as well!).
Mo
Why cant the Tamil nadu govt be fair and impose this rule on
ALLreligions ie all religions should have their primary
language in Tamil ?
They dare not as the Muslims and Sikhs would riot even
though most do not understand Arabic or Bihari. They are
picking on Hindus because they consider them as soft
targets.
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Because tamil Muslims prefer Arabic. Tamil Hindus (90%) don't
have any preference, infact, most prefer tamil.<
right has the govt to interefere . Even if 90% of Tamils
understand better in Tamil why impose this rule on the 10%
who understand Sanskrit?
90% of Muslims do NOT understand Arabic prayers .You are
just a bigot.
Devendran
I have a solution. Let the pujas be conducted in a language which nobody
understands. Let us call it 'vengayam' bashai. It was the language
originally proposed by the great Periyar (EVR) which nobody uderstands.
He will turn in his grave if tamil is used in the temples since it is a
kattumirandi bashai. The DK's and DMK's will welcome it since it is the
heritage from their thanthai. The brahmins will be completely eliminated
(since some of them cannot even stand the smell of vengayam). Here is an
example of an archanai:
UdanpirappE namaH
Rathathin RathamE namaH
kaNNirthuLiyE namaH
...
Maybe there are experts among you who can elaborate!
or would you prefer a DMK refined 'vengayam'
karunanithiye namaH
stalin appanE namaH
Thamil kudimagan ANNalE namaH
JJ kAlanE namH
etc etc
Sridhar Ramesh
Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
>
>
> > Why do you
> > discriminate between the two ? Why not equal laws for TAMIL
> > Muslims and TAMIL Hindus ?
>
> Because tamil Muslims prefer Arabic. Tamil Hindus (90%) don't
> have any preference, infact, most prefer tamil.
whaaat? they don't have a preference, but most prefer tamil ? duh!
did i miss anything? (rajah kayya vechchaa adu "raanga" ponadillay?)
seriously, they should pray in whatever language they want. but
whether they can force tamil on the archak/purohit/priest when
he wants to pray in sanskrit is a debatable issue. if people
believe that brahmin priests like to pray only in sanskrit
(majority, of course, there are always exceptions), then some
non-brahmin priests should be appointed. or have no priest, just
some temple maintenance staff. people can pray by themselves,
after all most problems in india are believed to be due to middlemen.
Sridhar Ramesh
Arul Singam wrote:
>
>
> Agreed. So you want to see each patron go and slap the brahmanaal
> conducting the pooja and ask him to do it in Tamil? I thought this
> would be much better. Never in their life time would the brahmanaal
> want to switch to Tamil, as that means losing their business in full.
> And never have i seen the Tamils of Tamil Nadu try to do good to
> themselves, with determination to fight the forces that hinder their
> growth. They have to be constantly told by some one like Super star
> kovinthasaami or Jegathaambigai Jeyalaleethaa.
> So it's better this way. Let the govt impose something that had
> been there all the while before the brahmanaal changed the system
> in Tamil Nadu. If the Tamils of Tamil Nadu feel that they want to
> go back to Sanskrit, that'd be their right.
>
mr singakutti,
let's examine what you said. each patron would slap the
brahmanaal and ask him (not axe him, as some might say)
to pray in tamil. he wouldn't do it by himself since he would
lose his business in full. in educated/literate parlances, this
is called a contradiction. unless you say that those wanting him
to pray in tamil - the patrons, don't pay him, whereas the others,
who are not patrons, mind you, do. if that's the case, wouldn't
we need to first find him some source of income before slapping him
and asking him to pray in tamil?
okstate.edu
The govt. is not atheistic. The party which is in power is atheistic.
But the election manifesto is not atheistic. If they had won the
election on the Manifesto of closing temples in TN, through
constituitnal process, DMK can think abouit that. Right now, that is not
the issue. The issue is whether the temples run by TN govt. should use
Tamil for prayers or not. The govt. run by DMK has every legal and
constitutional right to do that. It is the obligation for the DMK to
implement that policy.
Muthu.
Rajah Skandarajah
Sridhar Ramesh wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > > Why do you
> > > discriminate between the two ? Why not equal laws for TAMIL
> > > Muslims and TAMIL Hindus ?
> >
> > Because tamil Muslims prefer Arabic. Tamil Hindus (90%) don't
> > have any preference, infact, most prefer tamil.
>
> whaaat? they don't have a preference, but most prefer tamil ? duh!
That should be "some", not "most". Continuous replies
to Mo and you are bound to make a mistake. In another
post to him, I wrote the same thing with "some"
instead of "most.
> did i miss anything? (rajah kayya vechchaa adu "raanga" ponadillay?)
> seriously, they should pray in whatever language they want. but
> whether they can force tamil on the archak/purohit/priest when
> he wants to pray in sanskrit is a debatable issue. if people
> believe that brahmin priests like to pray only in sanskrit
> (majority, of course, there are always exceptions), then some
> non-brahmin priests should be appointed.
A non-brahmin priest appointed? Did I miss something?
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
> have any preference, infact, most prefer tamil.<
> right has the govt to interefere . Even if 90% of Tamils
> understand better in Tamil why impose this rule on the 10%
> who understand Sanskrit?
Because those 10% understand tamil while the 90%
don't understand sanskrit. That including the
fact that the 90% give the 10% money to conduct
prayers and poojas for them.
> 90% of Muslims do NOT understand Arabic prayers .
Oh shut up.
> You are
> just a bigot.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Rajah.
Naeem
In article <34D4C0...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu>, Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>No one is forcing anyone to "pray" in tamil. But poojas
>and so on should be conducted in the language the majority
>understands.
>
>I find it hilarious that 99.999% of the people who give money
>to Brahmins in temples to perform the required poojas
>do not understand sanskrit and yet, they are performed
>in sanskrit.
>
-- are some of your poojas required to be read in Sanskrit only or can they be
read in any language ?
>Most brahmins are fascist by nature and therefore
>cannot understand the word. They simply use it as
>a way to show off that they know English.
-- interesting.
-- naeem --
Rajah Skandarajah
V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
>
> > for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
> > dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
> >
> > Rajah.
>
> Rajah, as a Buddhist, you did not prevent the wholesale massacre of
> Tamils in Srilanka by SL Buddhist forces.
Uh....And as a Buddhist, how am I supposed to
do that?
There is no such thing as SL "Buddhist" forces.
> On the one hand , you keep
> kissing the boots of the forces that killed, maimed, sheeled Tamils.
Huh? When have I ever kissed the boot of these forces?
> On
> tn etop of it, you are not even an Indian.
Ofcourse!!! If all else fails, then attack
him with "you are not an Indian".
> Why bother about what happens
> in India and that too to Hindus, which you are decidedly are not one.
Why bother? I care for my fellow man. Is that
something new to you? If I see someone being
exploited, especially if he is one of my people,
ofcourse I would bother.
> So, don't talk of "we" as if you are one of Hindus
When I said "we" above, I said "we(90% of TN)". I
did not say Hindus.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
>
> > to Brahmins in temples to perform the required poojas
> > do not understand sanskrit and yet, they are performed
> > in sanskrit.
> >
>
> about in what language prayers sgould be conducted.
A good government bothers about when its people
are being exploited. Now, in my view, the whole
temple set-up is exploitation.
> It is even more
> ridiculous that self-proclaimed buddhists like Rajah Skandarajah should
> bother about how the hindus conduct their affairs
Be they Hindus or not, they are first, humans and
second, my people. If they are being exploited, I would
bother. Caring for fellow men might be an alien
concept to Brahmins, so expecting them to
understand is ridiculous.
Rajah.
M. Ranjit Mathews
Mo wrote:
> Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
> >Because tamil Muslims prefer Arabic. Tamil Hindus (90%) don't
> have any preference, infact, most prefer tamil.<
> So they can make their views clear on temple boards. What
> right has the govt to interefere . Even if 90% of Tamils
> understand better in Tamil why impose this rule on the 10%
> who understand Sanskrit?
Wouldn't you presume that the 10% who understand Sanskrit alsounderstand Tamil
as well as they understand Sanskrit ?
Rajah Skandarajah
Naeem wrote:
>
> In article <34D4C0...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu>, Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>
> >No one is forcing anyone to "pray" in tamil. But poojas
> >and so on should be conducted in the language the majority
> >understands.
> >
> >to Brahmins in temples to perform the required poojas
> >do not understand sanskrit and yet, they are performed
> >in sanskrit.
> >
> read in any language ?
"Can"? Ofcourse. The question is "May" they
be read in another language.
>
> >Most brahmins are fascist by nature and therefore
> >cannot understand the word. They simply use it as
> >a way to show off that they know English.
>
> -- interesting.
Fascinating eh?
> -- naeem --
Rajah.
Sridhar Ramesh
Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
>
> Be they Hindus or not, they are first, humans and
> second, my people. If they are being exploited, I would
> bother. Caring for fellow men might be an alien
> concept to Brahmins, so expecting them to
> understand is ridiculous.
>
> Rajah.
yeah right. and that noise we hear is from the milk of human
kindness sloshing inside you.
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: Mo wrote:
: I have been repeating the answer over and over again. Because
: the majority of muslim tamils do not want to pray in tamil.
: That is not the same with the Hindus. They do not mind, and
: some even prefer that the priest speaks in Tamil, so they
: understand what is being said.
You are repeating some unnecessary things. Your 'majority wants it' is
total nonsense. Ok don't shoot. Not yet. Please read the interviews
with the four women at the end of the article(and more before), which is a
small but important opinion poll, IMO.
And I am sure the DMK terrorised this old priest to echo what they want him to
say and equally terrorised the other priest to NOT say what they rellay feel.
An opinion poll would shed more light on it, that would reduce your
'majority wants it' to nothin. Extrapolating the results of those
interviewed at the end, (who expressed sensible views, IMO) these athiest
idiots have no business to change the language of archanas from the
beautiful/musical Sanskrit to the not so ... Tamil. This is an election
stunt. Every time they want votes, these Dravidians ;-) raise this
anti-HIndi/Sanskrit nonsense, like Indira G used to use this invisible
'foreign hand' boogie. Take it easy.
: Rajah.
Regards,
Ramakrishna.
--
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
: > >They may not know Arabic,
: > but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
: > when they pray, they know what they are saying.<
: Ah.....There we go. I would like to see a Brahmin
: explain what the Sanskrit words mean to anyone be he
: a Shudra or not who comes to pray at the temple.
I am not sure if the guys doing the pujas and archanas know the meaning
of all the prayers. Maybe they do. Any way to do that one can just
memorise the chants.
: Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a rats ass
: for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
: dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
Don't be silly. OK I am repeating too, like you ;-) Where the hell did
you get the 90% figure. The interviews suggested 90% + that they don't
want any change in the language of the archanas of the temples.
This is an election stunt. These athiest idiots have no business in
messing with what goes on in the tepmles, especially the language of the
archanas, more so when peolple think othewise. Don't make stupid
statements like 90% don't want Sanskrit etc., when the data clearly
suggests otherwise.
: Rajah.
Regards,
Ramakrishna.
--
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
: > Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
: > >The kids don't understand? They may not know Arabic,
: > but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
: > when they pray, they know what they are saying.<
: >
: > In Madrasa schools they learn the Quran in Arabic by rote
: > and it is NOT explained to them.
: Give me a break. I have yet to come across a tamil
: muslim who prays in Arabic and does not know what he is
: saying.
Is this also like you 90% of TN? ;-) Don't be silly.
: > Again why dont you even
: > attempt to make a law to force Muslims to alter their
: > religious instructions and see what happens ?
: Because I know what will happen. The same thing
: that would happen if someone tried to remove Tamil
: from TN.
You are talking non-sense again. Who is removing Tamil from TN.
They are NOT removing TAMIL from the temples either. The DMK is
REPLACING SANSKIRT from the TN TEMPLES! Get it? Guess NOT!
: I have answered this question of yours for
: the 6th time using 6 different answers.
You perfected a wrong answer! ;-)
: If you plan on asking me again, don't. I won't answer
: it.
Just give correct your wrong answer. That'll be good for you.
: Rajah.
Regards,
Ramakrishna.
--
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Mo (11305...@compuserve.com) wrote:
: Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
: >Because I know what will happen. The same thing
: that would happen if someone tried to remove Tamil
: from TN.<
: Sanskrit and TAMIL Muslims using Arabic and neither person
: discriminate between the two ? Why not equal laws for TAMIL
That is because thir Tamil Rat ;-), like the other dravidian MKs, is a
coward and don't have the balls to admit it and will instead evade and go
in a tangential direction!
: Because the Tamil Muslims would have you for breakfast if
: yout tried to stop them praying in Arabic -as the recent
: bombings in Tamil Nadu proved while with the Tamil Hindus
: you can bully them .
Exactly. Yo Tamil Rat-Rajah ;-) Don't be evasive and answer, for once
properly if you can! If not we can understand what Rats are capable of ;-)
Ramakrishna.
--
V.C.Vijayaraghavan
I have another solution, which is even more rational. The atheist,
rationalist DMK can follow that.
Abolish all temple priests. Have juke boxes containing slokas in
different languages, Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada or whatever. The
devotee puts 1 Rupee coin in the slot and presses the button for
appropriate sloka in a language of his choice.
Bingo, out comes the prayer of his choice.
But this should apply not only to the Hindu temples but also mosques and
churches
Rajah Skandarajah
> : > but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
> : > when they pray, they know what they are saying.<
>
> : Ah.....There we go. I would like to see a Brahmin
> : explain what the Sanskrit words mean to anyone be he
> : a Shudra or not who comes to pray at the temple.
>
> I am not sure if the guys doing the pujas and archanas know the meaning
> of all the prayers. Maybe they do. Any way to do that one can just
> memorise the chants.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
That's even worse. You tell the Brahmin to conduct
a pooja for you and he himself does not know what
he is saying to the god. Oh "god"!!!! I am
truly depressed that such stupid, moronic, utterly
ridiculous activities are going on in TN.
> : Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a rats ass
> : for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
> : dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
>
> Don't be silly. OK I am repeating too, like you ;-) Where the hell did
> you get the 90% figure. The interviews suggested 90% + that they don't
> want any change in the language of the archanas of the temples.
I would like to know where you got that statistic from. Are
you telling me that they went and interviwed everyone in TN
from the slums to the bungalows and came up with that statistic?
Be that as it may, if the language were to change, do
you think anyone other than the Brahmins would make
a big deal about it? 90% of TN would not care, or
mind. In other words, they don't give a shit. How
could they, when they don't know a word of Sanskrit?
> This is an election stunt. These athiest idiots have no business in
> messing with what goes on in the tepmles, especially the language of the
> archanas, more so when peolple think othewise.
And which people might this be?
That 90%+ of yours is very dubious.
I can see it now, thousands of lowcastes waving
flags with Sanskrit words on them and marching down
the roads of TN led by by a band of Brahmins armed with
vibhuti protesting the language change.
> Don't make stupid
> statements like 90% don't want Sanskrit etc., when the data clearly
> suggests otherwise.
You should learn to read properly. It is not that 90%
don't want Sanskrit, it is that 90% would not care
if the archanas were done in tamil.
> Ramakrishna.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
>
> Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
> : Mo wrote:
>
> : the majority of muslim tamils do not want to pray in tamil.
> : That is not the same with the Hindus. They do not mind, and
> : some even prefer that the priest speaks in Tamil, so they
> : understand what is being said.
>
> You are repeating some unnecessary things. Your 'majority wants it' is
> total nonsense.
Can you show me where I said "majority wants it"?
I said the majority does not care.
> Ok don't shoot. Not yet. Please read the interviews
> with the four women at the end of the article(and more before), which is a
> small but important opinion poll, IMO.
Thats just it, it is "small". Four women, WOW!!, now
that really speaks for TN.
> And I am sure the DMK terrorised this old priest to echo what they want him to
> say and equally terrorised the other priest to NOT say what they rellay feel.
Ofcoooooouuurseeeee. How could it have been any other way?
> An opinion poll would shed more light on it, that would reduce your
> 'majority wants it' to nothin.
First you better read what I say properly and then
reply.
> Extrapolating the results of those
> interviewed at the end,
I'll tell you what. Go and interview the same
amount of people in the slums as to whether
they care for the lanuguage, be it sanskrit
or tamil, and then extrapolate those results.
> (who expressed sensible views, IMO) these athiest
> idiots have no business to change the language of archanas from the
> beautiful/musical Sanskrit to the not so ... Tamil.
I don't think so. You are bringing personal opinions
into this. Many people have a hard time facing the
reality that Sanskrit is dead. Ok, ok, so some
of you believe that it is the "intergalactic language"
spoken by aliens and what not, but I, for some reason,
have a hard time believing it.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
> : Give me a break. I have yet to come across a tamil
> : muslim who prays in Arabic and does not know what he is
> : saying.
>
> Is this also like you 90% of TN? ;-)
You will have to read properly to understand.
> Don't be silly.
Are you telling me that the standard prayer
prayed by the muslims at the different times
in the day is something that they don't understand?
You must be from another planet.
> : > Again why dont you even
> : > attempt to make a law to force Muslims to alter their
> : > religious instructions and see what happens ?
>
> : Because I know what will happen. The same thing
> : that would happen if someone tried to remove Tamil
> : from TN.
>
> You are talking non-sense again. Who is removing Tamil from TN.
I was making a comparison. I think my level of
conversing is too high for slow people like you and Mo.
> They are NOT removing TAMIL from the temples either. The DMK is
> REPLACING SANSKIRT from the TN TEMPLES! Get it? Guess NOT!
Ram Ram, Ram Ram. Hare Krishna!!! Hail Barney!!!!
HaroooooooooooooHaraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
> : I have answered this question of yours for
> : the 6th time using 6 different answers.
>
> You perfected a wrong answer! ;-)
>
> : If you plan on asking me again, don't. I won't answer
> : it.
>
> Just give correct your wrong answer. That'll be good for you.
Uh......You will have to get an interpreter
to get me to understand your English. Now I know
how the tamil hindus feel when the Brahmin gibbers
in Sanskrit.
> Ramakrishna.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
> Exactly. Yo Tamil Rat-Rajah ;-) Don't be evasive and answer, for once
> properly if you can! If not we can understand what Rats are capable of ;-)
I had already answered for the 10th time. But I am
afraid, when people have IQ's of rats like you and Mo,
all I can say is:
Harooooooooooooooooooo Haraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!
Hare Krishna!!!! Hail Barney!!!!
> Ramakrishna.
> --
Rajah.
Devendran
V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote:
>
> I have another solution, which is even more rational. The atheist,
> rationalist DMK can follow that.
>
> Abolish all temple priests. Have juke boxes containing slokas in
> different languages, Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada or whatever. The
> devotee puts 1 Rupee coin in the slot and presses the button for
> appropriate sloka in a language of his choice.
>
> Bingo, out comes the prayer of his choice.
>
> But this should apply not only to the Hindu temples but also mosques and
> churches
>
> Devendran wrote:
Excellent!
The money so collected can be distributed to barbers willing to shave
off the kudumis of the priests. Along with the kudumis the priest class
will be eliminated. The first barber will be Mu Ka (as you know he was a
nAvithar by caste). The kudumiless brahmins can practise tonsorial
activities on other priests to eke out a living until all of them are
eliminated. This will be the brilliant FINAL SOLUTION which would put to
shame even the Fuehrer.
Gopala Ganesh
> bother. Caring for fellow men might be an alien
> concept to Brahmins, <
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a most outrageous, unwarranted, unfair generalization! Youth
who happened to be Brahmin have died fighting for the freedom of India
and caring for other freedom fighters. TN Brahmins that I am aware of
have cared for SL Tamil refugees, without caring about their caste or
anything else. I know, because some of them were members of my family!
There ARE some things that you are obviously unaware of, sir! - ganesh
Mo
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>If they are being exploited, I would
bother. Caring for fellow men might be an alien
Please explain how listening to Sanskrit prayers , or
Buddhist chants ( are they in Tamil ? - pancham , sancham ,
gachami ?) or Arabic namaz is exploiting Tamil Hindus and
Brahmins speaking in Tamil is not exploiting them ?
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Alright people, feel like a spring chicken ;-) and time to adorn my
favorite netters, Sid-Misra-Mishramam-topi ;-)
Dear jit (j...@unforgettable.com) wrote:
Thanks for posting the article.
Go to
http://www.rediff.com/home.asp and search ;-) for the article.
Tamilians are funny people. Yes they are. The non-Brahmin-Dravidian
variety i.e.,
These
racist-dravidian-athiest-anti-Sanskrit(cause-it-represents-everything-Brahmin)-
faggots, this non-Brahmin mafia who hates Sanskrit whose bastard
antegeny, Tamil pales before it for Hindu religious archanas/chants ;-)
suffer from severe inferiority complex. Yes they do.
Any ways... when you want to look at the peoples love for their language
among non-Hindians ;-) one has to compare(for the contrast) Bongs and
these dark-dravidian-dudes(DDDs like KKK)-from-deep-space(south) ;-), for
obvious reasons.
Both love their language, but one(you know who) is not anti-this ot
anti-that, where this and that are Sanskrit and Brahmin ;-)
Both languages have a few holes. Bengali's eat matter in all its states,
Solids, liquids(tea/coffee/water) and gases too(cigarette/beedi) (Sob
khaben) and didn't think they need 'va'(=ba) and hence waves are babes!
But with some such inadequacies they didn't develop any insecurities and don't
react against Sanskrit or Hindi or anyother language/caste for that
matter.
Tamil, the language of stone age ;-) didn't come up with all the consonants
and the alphabet for the missing consonants. It is more rough at least for
any chants/archanas/humns of the religious kind, unlike Sanskrit.
But these lungi-dark-glasses-clad-dravidian-dudes-from-deep-space have to
resort to this anti-Hindi(read as anti-Aryan) or anti-Sanskrit(read as
anti-Brahmin) cards before the elections, like IG's invisible foreign hand.
They don't mind being ruled by the *REAL* white guys but not some desi
brownies/wheaties ;-) and would not mind *ENGLISH* but have a problem
with the mother of all(most) Indian languages, except Tamiz of
course(fortunately), ;-) Sanskrit. So if Indian govt wants to call AIR,
'AkAshvANI' so that everybody can understand that it is radio/sound
waves(babes for a Bong) from the air, these DDDs see the correlation to
vedas that were also a 'vANi' from the thin air, hot air for some, and hence
Brahminical-oppression ;-) and will fight tooth and nail to keep 'All
India Radio' and not change it.
Because Brahmins are associated with temples, these DDDs declared
themselves to be athiests. Now only one problem. Their pee-brains can't
comprehend what is obvious to road-side-tea-shop-owner or a flower-girl or a
housemaid, or a fruit vendor. No I am not underminig the intelligence of
these women, on the contrary I am very happy to see them being sensible,
which is too much to expect from Tamil-Rat-Rajah ;-) for whose sake I
kept the relevant parts of stats like 99% of those the author talked to
did NOT want the change and felt that 'athiest-faggots' ;-) don't have
any business meddling with things religious and what the heck, I will
challenge these bastards to mess with the Tamil Muslims or other minorities,
asking them to change their language too, just too see the bravado of the
rats!
What is disgusting is the the DMK terrorised this old priest to echo
their sentiments and worse even threw in Karunanidhi, reminds me of
Chairman Mao pig ;-), and other lungi-dark-glasses-clad-DDDs in the temple
prayers. Also they terrorised the other priests to not say what they feel.
A simple oipnion poll has already shown that the change is NOT wanted/welcome
and politicians, especially athiest-faggots ;-), should stay away from
things they don't believe in. Period.
That is how sick these guys are.
Hence the need for UCC dummies. Mess with the Hindu majority only if you
can extend the same courtesy to the other religious minorities ;-) Else
you are a bunch of nincomppops ;-) Yes you are, a whole lot of you,
opposing UCC(Uniform Civil Code). Like Mo says... it is good to
encourage the people to say the prayers in a language of the locals but
that should be for all religions. If you can't do that... shut the .... ...
$Sdi-Misra-topi = off
Any ways... that was fun! ;-) ;-)
Regards,
Ramakrishna.
--
: January 30, 1998
: [Dr Dr Viswanatha Sivacharyar in the backdrop of the Kapaleeswara temple]
: Shobha Warrier
: Can you feel the sublime magnificence of Samskrutham? Can
: Tamilians, as a whole, are militantly passionate about their
: language and culture. And it was expected that the Tamil
: But 99 per cent of those I spoke to (and I spoke to nearly
: 50 people) were none too happy with the interference of
: politicians in religious matters. And they expressed both
: their hostility and unhappiness in very strong terms.
: Suresh, a regular at his local temple, is furious at this
: ham-handed political interference in religion. "Devotion is
: not bound by language. What is important is the satisfaction
: a devotee gets by listening to the chanting of the mantras
: (hymns) in Sanskrit. No other language in the world can
: imitate the resonance of this chanting or replicate its
: soul-stirring effect.
: This is where the chief priest of the
: Kapaleeswara temple at Mylapore, one of the
: oldest temples in Madras, disagrees with
: Sunder, "I am a retired Sanskrit professor,"
: says Dr Viswanatha Sivacharyar. "But I still feel that my
: great great-grandfather erred by performing the archana in
: Sanskrit. What I am doing now is correcting his mistake."
: Subramaniam's wife, Jaya, joins the
: tirade. "The essence of the words are
: lost when Sanskrit is translated into
: Tamil because Tamil is just not as rich
: a language, not does it have as many alphabets. I know
: Sanskrit, and Tamil is my mother tongue. But when I read
: But the devotees were aghast to hear the names of
: Karunanidhi, Tamilkudi Magan and certain hymns in praise of
: the party in the Tamil version of the archana.
: Sceptical devotees, though, were not convinced.
: Selvaraj Continued...
: Pappamma believes in God, but does not find the time to
: perform poojas or visit temples. Her busy life
: revolves around her tea shop,
: her only source of living.
: "Though I am very progressive in
: my outlook, I feel that we have
: to leave certain things as they are. Tradition, for example.
: Why do we follow traditions? Because we like them. What I
: cannot understand is the attitude of the DMK. They call
: themselves atheists. Then why should they interfere in the
: affairs of those who believe in God?"
: Saroja, a flower-seller, seems rather confused about the
: whole affair. She started off by saying, 'Tamil is our
: language, so the Iyers (read priests) should do the archana
: in the language we know and not in the language that they
: know." She thought for a moment, then changed her mind. "On
: second thoughts, nobody has the right to change tradition.
: These politicians should do their work and not interfere in
: our relationship with God."
: Panchali, who sells fruits in a residential
: area, criticised the politicians severely for
: entering this prohibited area. "I am against
: any politician deciding what is to be done in a
: temple. These people do not believe in God, so why should
: they create such confusion? Politics is different and
: religion is different, nobody should mix the two."
: But she strongly believes the archana should only be
: performed in a language the devotees want, know and
: understand. "There is only one God and God understands all
: languages including English, Hindi and Telugu. Still, I feel
: that the priests should chant the mantras only in Tamil. We
: understand Tamil, not the language the priests use. By the
: way, what is the name of the language?"
: Vijaya, a young housemaid, visits temples regularly, and
: asks for archanas. "Are you telling me that they do not
: chant the mantras in Tamil? I never knew that. I thought it
: was Tamil. I never understood what they said, but I thought
: that was because I could not hear them clearly. The priests
: are inside the inner sanctum while we stand outside. So, it
: doesn't matter to me whether they do it in Tamil or some
: other language. But I like the tune of the mantras. It is
: like good music. That is why I do not want anyone
: to change it."
: priests were willing to talk to the press. "Naturally, the
: priests are scared to talk," said someone, who spoke on
: condition of anonymity. "Recently, a priest was quoted in a
: newspaper saying that poojas should be done only in
: Sanskrit. Do you know what happened to him? He was
: suspended. So it is question of the poor priests' survival,
: you know!"
: Selvaraj
Parthasarati Dileepan
Sridhar Ramesh wrote in message <34D5D6...@nospam.ncsu.edu>...
> or have no priest, just
>some temple maintenance staff. people can pray by themselves,
>after all most problems in india are believed to be due to middlemen.
Lot of people have expressed lots of opinion, but show surprising
lack of knowledge. Hindu temples, unlike places of worship of
other religions, house idols of the Lord. For Hindus, these idols
are not just statues of stone, but God in what is called "Archa" form.
Rituals as prescribed in the Agamas must be performed even
if there are no devotees present. This is often the case. On
special occasions devotees do come in hundreds of thousands.
But on ordinary days there are hardly any devotee in many temples.
Exceptions to this are the popular temples such as Thiruppathi.
However, the daily rituals according to tradition and agamas
must go on, and have been going on without interruption for
hundreds and even thousands of years. These vedic manthras
are necessarily in Sanskrit. Thus, it is not just a question of
devotees understanding the Archana manthras.
It may be surprising to some, and some others may not even
want to admit it, but the spirituality of Hindus do not stem from
the Archana. It is the other way around. The Archana is a
manifestation of their faith and devotion. For a devout Hindu
Archana in Tamil is not a prerequisite. The devotion is to the
Lord, not to Tamil.
Before you start flaming me, please note that Tamil
is a part of daily worship among Sri vaishnavas, both at
home and temples. It is impossible to perform daily
worship without Tamil. Many here may not know this, but Sri
Vaishnavas who are not Tamils, such as Telugu, Kannada,
and even Hindi speaking Sri vasihnavas, recite Tamil
paasurams everyday as a part of daily worship, in many
instances without understanding the meaning. (Aside:
Many so called "Tamils" do not understand the Tamil
paasurams) They do this out of tradition, devotion, and
faith. Thus, it is not whether it is in a language that you
understand, but it is what you feel that is important.
Unfortunately for Hindus, it is the atheists who dictate
to the devout, how they should pray.
Finally, the word-for-word difference between Sanskrit and
Tamil Archana is extremely minor. If my memory serves me
right each salutation of the Archana ends with "namaha" in
Sanskrit, but with "pORRi" in Tamil. The rest of the Archana
involves the divine names of the Lord and therefore is
identical for the two languages. All this fighting is for this!!!
IMHO, we must continue the tradition for daily rituals in the
temple, but perform Archanas in Tamil, or in Sanskrit if
requested.
-- Dileepan
p.s. The translation of "namaha" to "pORRi" is woefully inadequate.
"pORRi" simply is a praise, but "namaha" involves submission of
one's self to the Lord as well. It would be nice if a better word in Tamil
is found and used in stead of "pORRi".
Rajah Skandarajah
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
> They don't mind being ruled by the *REAL* white guys but not some desi
Yeah right. Who is running after Sonia's sari?
> brownies/wheaties ;-) and would not mind *ENGLISH* but have a problem
> with the mother of all(most) Indian languages, except Tamiz of
> course(fortunately), ;-) Sanskrit.
English is a useful language in this day and age. What
are you talking in now? Sanskrit, is a USELESS
language in this day and age(at least on this plannet for
all those "intergalactic sanskrit" fans).
> No I am not underminig the intelligence of
> these women, on the contrary I am very happy to see them being sensible,
> which is too much to expect from Tamil-Rat-Rajah ;-) for whose sake I
> kept the relevant parts of stats like 99% of those the author talked to
> did NOT want the change and felt that 'athiest-faggots' ;-) don't have
> any business meddling with things religious and what the heck,
+
> I will
> challenge these bastards to mess with the Tamil Muslims or other minorities,
> asking them to change their language too, just too see the bravado of the
> rats!
Why should we? The Tamils muslims don't want to change their
language. They have a preference for Arabic, not to mention the
fact that they know what is being said to their god. The Tamil
Hindus on the other hand DON'T have a preference, and they
certainly do not understand what is being said by the Brahmin farts
to the gods.
I am really surprised that this still hasn't sunk
into your thick skull.
RK,
When you want to argue with me on a point to
point basis, give me a shout. Till then,
and all I have to say is:
HarooooooooooooooooooooHaraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Hare Krishna!! Hail Barney!!!
> Regards,
>
> Ramakrishna.
> --
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
Gopala Ganesh wrote:
>
> Mo wrote:
> >
> > Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
> > >If they are being exploited, I would
> > bother. Caring for fellow men might be an alien
> > concept to Brahmins, <
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This is a most outrageous, unwarranted, unfair generalization!
It wasn't supposed to be one.
> Youth
> who happened to be Brahmin have died fighting for the freedom of India
> and caring for other freedom fighters. TN Brahmins that I am aware of
> have cared for SL Tamil refugees, without caring about their caste or
> anything else. I know, because some of them were members of my family!
>
> There ARE some things that you are obviously unaware of, sir! - ganesh
That wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. Sheeshh.
This thread was full of anti-Dravidian, anti-tamil
stuff, and I can't push a single anti-Brahmin sentiment in.
Don't give me the SL Tamil refugee stuff.
Unlike some people want to believe, I am from TN.
Rajah.
Pradip Parekh
Does Rajah know that Prabhakaran loves Sanskrit?
Pradip
Mani M. Manivannan
Let me first admit that I have zero knowledge of the Vedas and Agamas
and their traditions from the original Sanskrit texts. Because I have
only read English translations of bits and pieces of these texts my
questions will necessarily reflect my profound ignorance of these
subjects. However, as a Tamil Hindu proud of my Indian heritage I do
hope to get some answers. If my questions appear silly and
provocative, please forgive my ignorance but try to resolve my doubts.
"Parthasarati Dileepan" <dile...@utc.edu> wrote:
>Hindu temples, unlike places of worship of
>other religions, house idols of the Lord. For Hindus, these idols
>are not just statues of stone, but God in what is called "Archa" form.
>Rituals as prescribed in the Agamas must be performed even
>if there are no devotees present. This is often the case. On
>special occasions devotees do come in hundreds of thousands.
>But on ordinary days there are hardly any devotee in many temples.
>Exceptions to this are the popular temples such as Thiruppathi.
>However, the daily rituals according to tradition and agamas
>must go on, and have been going on without interruption for
>hundreds and even thousands of years. These vedic manthras
>are necessarily in Sanskrit. Thus, it is not just a question of
>devotees understanding the Archana manthras.
I have have read arguments similar to yours used in the past
justifying everything in the name of the Agamas and Vedas and in
particular against admitting panchamas into Hindu temples. I am not
trying to equate Archanais in Sanskrit to Temply entry denials to the
panchmas. I am curious to know how flexible the agama rules are.
Also, my interpretation of the Vedic rituals is that the Vedic Aryans
worried only about Yagas, worshipped fires and never cared for idol
worships, pujas or offerings of flowers, fruits etc., to idols.
Scholars consider the idol worship to be a mixture of imports from the
Greeks and the Dravidian fondness for "nadukal"(stupa) worship with
puja like offerings. In fact, the Dravidian Nadukal worship
descriptions are remarkably similar to your descriptions of archa in
that the nadukal was discarded after worship once the spiritual
presence was perceived to have left the stone. I am curious to know
if Vedas, particularly rig veda, describe pujas and idol worship and
prescribe the mantras to be chanted for the puja.
>It may be surprising to some, and some others may not even
>want to admit it, but the spirituality of Hindus do not stem from
>the Archana. It is the other way around. The Archana is a
>manifestation of their faith and devotion. For a devout Hindu
>Archana in Tamil is not a prerequisite. The devotion is to the
>Lord, not to Tamil.
In theory this is true. However, if the worship is not rooted in the
local languages, there is a danger that the rituals become
meaningless. The Nayanaars and Aazhwars of the Tamil country spread
devotional cult among the predominantly Buddhist and Jain Tamils not
with the Sanskrit vedas or polemics in Pali but with glorious poems in
Tamil. Even today, after all these centuries, certain temples are
special to the Tamils because the deities there were sung by these
saints. Whenever I see the ruins of the temples in Kampuchia,
Borobudur, or even the Mayan or Incan ruins, I feel a tinge of
sadness. It makes eminent sense, in my opinion, that a religion
thrives when it reaches the hearts and minds of the devotees rather
than stick to rituals and traditions that may undermine it.
>Before you start flaming me, please note that Tamil
>is a part of daily worship among Sri vaishnavas, both at
>home and temples. It is impossible to perform daily
>worship without Tamil. Many here may not know this, but Sri
>Vaishnavas who are not Tamils, such as Telugu, Kannada,
>and even Hindi speaking Sri vasihnavas, recite Tamil
>paasurams everyday as a part of daily worship, in many
>instances without understanding the meaning. (Aside:
>Many so called "Tamils" do not understand the Tamil
>paasurams) They do this out of tradition, devotion, and
>faith. Thus, it is not whether it is in a language that you
>understand, but it is what you feel that is important.
>Unfortunately for Hindus, it is the atheists who dictate
>to the devout, how they should pray.
You are right about the Vaishnavaite temples. I don't consider myself
to be very religious. However, my fondness for Tamil pirabandhams in
Perumal temples and Thevaram and Thiruvacagam in Siva temples keep
drawing me back to these temples. These are remarkable poems that
manage to melt my heart and let me see the playful little child, the
mischievous brat, the lustful youth - all as forms of the almighty in
my minds eye. These poems don't describe a judgemental, jealous,
vengeful God dictating how he must be obeyed or worshipped. Rather
they teach me to see the almighty in mundane things and fill me with a
sense of love, affection, wonder and awe. Atleast, that is the power
of the bhakti poetry on me.
Unfortunately you are correct in saying that a lot of Tamils don't
understand the paasurams. Some are hostile to it because of some
mysterious distrust of vaishanvism. Others are suspicious of the
explicit verses of Naachiyaar Thirumozhi. And most are just ignorant
of Tamil literature.
I do however agree with you in your concern for the government
dictating to Hindus. But that is our legacy too. Hindus don't have a
central authority where disputes like these can be resolved amicably.
Thus we had the silly court case that lasted more than a century to
decide whether the Sri Rangam temple elephant should have the 'V'
naamam or the 'U' naamam. We could have resolved the temple entry
issue humanely rather than fight with the vigor of the KKK. And our
upper caste dharmakartas would not have been replaced with atheists
and communists if they had not resorted to idol "export" business.
All these and more have led to the "socialist" temples. It is an
irony that majority of the Hindus can enjoy religous freedom only if
their places of worship is in the control of the (supposedly neutral)
government.
>Finally, the word-for-word difference between Sanskrit and
>Tamil Archana is extremely minor. If my memory serves me
>right each salutation of the Archana ends with "namaha" in
>Sanskrit, but with "pORRi" in Tamil. The rest of the Archana
>involves the divine names of the Lord and therefore is
>identical for the two languages. All this fighting is for this!!!
>IMHO, we must continue the tradition for daily rituals in the
>temple, but perform Archanas in Tamil, or in Sanskrit if
>requested.
My understanding is that this is exactly what the new law requires.
It is my experience that in Siva temples, whenever we ask for archanai
in Tamil (with archanai tickets for Tamil paid for), the priest who
knows the Tamil archanai is never to be found. Rather than wait
forever, we had to settle for Sanskrit archanai. Complaints to the
Hindu Aranilaya Aanaiyar to provide more priests who know to perform
archanais in Tamil led nowhere. I think the new law is to address the
needs of people like me. By making the personal archanais to be in
Tamil default, the temples will have to have atleast one priest who
knows Tamil archanais all the time.
It is unfortunate that such a legitimate request is being used to
advance the cause of BJP in Mylapore. Otherwise, the headpriest would
have never used "Karunanidhi", "Thamizhkudimagan" and "Dravidam" in
the Tamil archanais. And I have never ever heard that Lord Murugan
can be called "Thamizhkudimagan." I believe that this was done
deliberately to provoke the devout Hindus against the DMK government.
That the priests would play such dirty politics in the archanais to
the deities is mindboggling.
>-- Dileepan
>p.s. The translation of "namaha" to "pORRi" is woefully inadequate.
>"pORRi" simply is a praise, but "namaha" involves submission of
>one's self to the Lord as well. It would be nice if a better word in Tamil
>is found and used in stead of "pORRi".
I am not sure if "pORRi" had the same meaning a thousand years ago.
You can educate me if the aazhwars for whom 'saranaagathi' meant more
than simple praise used the term lightly.
Regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Mani M. Manivannan
Fremont, CA, USA.
selva
Pradip Parekh wrote:
>
> Does Rajah know that Prabhakaran loves Sanskrit?
>
> Pradip
Selva
Mo
ma...@ix.netcom.com (Mani M. Manivannan) wrote:
>t the Vedic Aryans
worried only about Yagas, worshipped fires and never cared
for idol worships, pujas or offerings of flowers, fruits
etc., to idols. Scholars consider the idol worship to be a
mixture of imports from the Greeks and the Dravidian
fondness for "nadukal"(stupa) worship with
puja like offerings<
Dead right. idol worship was Dravidian which the Aryan
Brahmin priests tried hard to eradicate as it gave people
enjoment and enabled them to get closer to God without
middlelmen priest. In the end Brahmins gave in and became
temple priests.
However a new Prophet always emerges who wants to
consolidate his power by banning idol worship , Prophet
Muhammad , Guru Nanak , Dayanand - and imposing himself as
the inermediary. There is a lot of violence and conflict and
a lot of unhappiness amongs the people until the reactionary
forces are defeated and people start to think for themselves
and enjoy idol worshipping again.
The one God , non idol worshipping theory is a danger to
humankind and should be banned at the next session of the
Security Council after Iraq has been dealt with.
. Let me first admit that I have zero knowledge of the Vedas
Parthasarati Dileepan
Mani M. Manivannan wrote in message
<6b9ai3$1...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>Let me first admit that I have zero knowledge of the Vedas and Agamas
>and their traditions from the original Sanskrit texts. Because I have
I can't claim any expertise in Vedas and Agamas either. What I think
I know is purely based on what I have heard from elders and Acharyas.
Thus I shall try to answer some of your questions as best as I can.
Please note that mine is purely a Sri Vaishnava view.
>I have have read arguments similar to yours used in the past
>justifying everything in the name of the Agamas and Vedas and in
>particular against admitting panchamas into Hindu temples. I am not
>trying to equate Archanais in Sanskrit to Temply entry denials to the
>panchmas. I am curious to know how flexible the agama rules are.
I am not sure whether the question of temple entry was a matter
of Agama rules. I shall defer this to more knowledgeable others.
What I am referring to is rituals that are prescribed in the Agamas
that _must_ be performed, such as Visvaroopam, Abigamanam,
Thirumanjanam, and other Aradhanais. Much of these are in
Sanskrit and must be performed in Sanskrit. Some of these
rituals have evolved over the years and includes recitation of
Tamil verses. But the sanskrit manthras still remain. Tamil
verses were added; they did not substitute Sanskrit manthras.
BTW, when recitation of Tamil verses was introduced
1,000 years ago by Sri Ramanuja there was stiff opposition.
There was even an attempt upon his life. Couple of hundred
years later, when temple aradhanai resumed after interruption
due to Muslim invasion, recitation of Tamil verses again came
under attack. It was Swami Sri Desikan who successfully
defended the practice. Thus, Tamil and Sanskrit both play
important roles in the daily worship of the Archa forms of
the Lord in Sri Vaishnava temples.
From the above we can conclude that the Agamas do not
prevent worship in other languages. But that is not what I
am arguing. My point is, there is no need to get rid of
Sanskrit. Promoting Tamil is perfectly fine and must be
done. After all this was done by eminent _sanskritized_ (:-))
brahmins of yore. But I don't think it makes sense to throw
away _benign_ tradition that have lasted thousands of
years. To be fair, I don't think the DMK government is
advocating this. But my concern is for the future. Lack
of knowledge among over eager _Tamil lovers_ may
cause undue damage like what you mention later.
>
>Also, my interpretation of the Vedic rituals is that the Vedic Aryans
>worried only about Yagas, worshipped fires and never cared for idol
The Hindu worship tradition is based on Agamas such
as Pancharathra, Vaikanasa, etc. These are traced
back to the Vedic times. But the important thing is
not whether these practices are really from Vedic
times or not. What is important is the faith and belief.
>In theory this is true. However, if the worship is not rooted in the
>local languages, there is a danger that the rituals become
>meaningless.
This is true if the Sanskrit based rituals are the only source
of spiritual expression. Happily, this is not so. Religion
takes many forms. Sanskrit based worship in temples is
just one form among many. There are many other forms
some involving language and others where language does
not play any part at all. Last summer I had the opportunity
to visit Azhvaar Thirunagari during Nammaazhvaar's
Thirunakshathram festivities. PerumaaLs from the nine
nearby temples were assembled in a Hall. Just consider
the names of these Lords, Vaiththamaanidhi, Polindhu
ninRa piraan, mahara nedunguzhaikkaadhan,
senthaamaraikkaNNan, em idar kadivaan, kaLLappiraan,
etc. Sure, the Lords have Sanskrit names as well. But
Tamil is an equal partner; perhaps the better half.
During this time, people from all walks of life went
about the hall and had "dharsan" at very close
proximity. Later that day the Lords one by one went
into the Azhvaar Thirunagari temple, with
Nammaazhvaar welcoming them at the entrance.
As far as I could observe everyone was fixed on the
majesty of the Lord. The spiritual experience arose
from simply beholding the Lord. Thus it is clear that
over thousand years of Sanskrit based worship has
not diminished even an iota of the devotion and faith
of the Tamil people.
Other forms of spiritual experience that is in Tamil
almost always is religious discourses. Of course
there is music. For a devout Hindu everything
he or she does is a form of worship. Sanskrit based
worship in temples is just a small part of the whole
experience.
Another point to note is that an Archana is not
a required form of prayer. Only occassional
visitors request an Archana to be performed.
The regular visitors simply have "dharsan"
and accept prasadham such as sacred water,
"thruththuzhaay", and "satari". There is no
sanskrit involved in any of this.
>saints. Whenever I see the ruins of the temples in Kampuchia,
>Borobudur, or even the Mayan or Incan ruins, I feel a tinge of
>sadness. It makes eminent sense, in my opinion, that a religion
>thrives when it reaches the hearts and minds of the devotees rather
>than stick to rituals and traditions that may undermine it.
This has not happened in Tamil Nadu, yet. On the contrary
Hinduism has thrived. If we are able to keep the atheists
away from meddling we have a bright future as well.
>>p.s. The translation of "namaha" to "pORRi" is woefully inadequate.
>>"pORRi" simply is a praise, but "namaha" involves submission of
>>one's self to the Lord as well. It would be nice if a better word in
Tamil
>>is found and used in stead of "pORRi".
>
>I am not sure if "pORRi" had the same meaning a thousand years ago.
>You can educate me if the aazhwars for whom 'saranaagathi' meant more
>than simple praise used the term lightly.
Whether "pORRi" meant something else a thousand
years ago or not, the Azvhaars did not use "pORRi"
as an equivalent for "namaha". I am not able to think
of a one-word translation in Tamil that captures the
complete meaning of "namaha". (For those who are
Tamil sensitive: I am sure there are many nice Tamil
words for which there are no equivalent Sanskrit words.
My point is not that.)
Please note that the Azhvaars held Snaskrit texts with
the utmost respect. I am sure Azhvaars would not want
Sanskrit eliminated from our temples.
regards,
-- Dileepan
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
: > Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: > : Mo wrote:
: > : > Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
: > : > but what they say in Arabic is explained to them, so
: > : > when they pray, they know what they are saying.<
: > : > So why not make the Brahmins explain the Sanskrit words .
: >
: > : Ah.....There we go. I would like to see a Brahmin
: > : explain what the Sanskrit words mean to anyone be he
: > : a Shudra or not who comes to pray at the temple.
: > I am not sure if the guys doing the pujas and archanas know the meaning
: > of all the prayers. Maybe they do. Any way to do that one can just
: > memorise the chants.
: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
: That's even worse. You tell the Brahmin to conduct
: a pooja for you and he himself does not know what
: he is saying to the god. Oh "god"!!!! I am
: truly depressed that such stupid, moronic, utterly
: ridiculous activities are going on in TN.
People can pray in their homes if that is all they want.
They go to a temple because th epriest can chant the archana/hymn.
People like this for the listening pleasure of it. They alone know it's
pleasure. It is none of your or DMK's business.
Most prayesr/chants are eulogies to God using the various names of God.
Anybody who wants to know the meaning is welcome to know it by buyng a book
of the various names of God and a dictiopnary. There are also books that
explain the significance of the various things done during a pooja.
You/one may not agree with all of it. But THOSE WHO WANT TO still go to
the temple for the effects of listening to the chants has on them. Again...
it in none of your or the DMK's God-Damn ;-) business.
: > : Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a
rats ass : > : for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
: > : dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
: >
: > Don't be silly. OK I am repeating too, like you ;-) Where the hell did
: > you get the 90% figure. The interviews suggested 90% + that they don't
: > want any change in the language of the archanas of the temples.
: I would like to know where you got that statistic from. Are
: you telling me that they went and interviwed everyone in TN
: from the slums to the bungalows and came up with that statistic?
The interviews at the end of the paper did indicate people who are not
elitist Sanskrit loving bozos. A tea-shop owner, a flower girl, a
housemaid, a fruit vendor and others are all like what I said...
Again... don't be ridiculous. People in the slums may not give a rat's
ass ;-) to go to the temple or what goes on there except for the 'prasadam'
;-).
Any way the poll should include only the temple-goers and nobody else.
Athiest idiopts don't get to decide what the temple goesr want. It is
NONE og their GOD DAMN business.
: Be that as it may, if the language were to change, do
: you think anyone other than the Brahmins would make
: a big deal about it? 90% of TN would not care, or
: mind. In other words, they don't give a shit. How
: could they, when they don't know a word of Sanskrit?
That is the problem. YOU are making it a BRAHMIN vs NON problem when
the non of the people interviewd by the author of the article seem to be.
It should be limited to people who go to temples and thier opinions alone
should count. NOT some BRAHMIN/SANSKRIT hating people like you.
It has nothing to do with knowing a word of Sanskrit. Repeating...(you
seem to need it) people expressed their feeling good listening to these
chants in Sanskrit(over Tamil).
: > This is an election stunt. These athiest idiots have no business in
: > messing with what goes on in the tepmles, especially the language of the
: > archanas, more so when peolple think othewise.
: And which people might this be?
Please read above. The temple-goers. NOBODY else counts.
: That 90%+ of yours is very dubious.
Your stat so far included only you. The author did at least show people
from not so elite backgrounds.
: > Ramakrishna.
: Rajah.
Ramakrishna.
--
Chukka Srinivas
In article <6baeqs$j...@news.asu.edu>, ramk...@imap3.asu.edu writes:
|d
|>
|> ....[deleted]...
|> Again... don't be ridiculous. People in the slums may not give a rat's
|> ass ;-) to go to the temple or what goes on there except for the 'prasadam'
|> ;-).
|
|> Ramakrishna.
|> --
Interesting and revealing perspective..
Shows how arrogant and self-righteous
"we - the non-slum dwellers" can be.
-srinivas.
Rajah Skandarajah
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
> : Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
>
> : That's even worse. You tell the Brahmin to conduct
> : a pooja for you and he himself does not know what
> : he is saying to the god. Oh "god"!!!! I am
> : truly depressed that such stupid, moronic, utterly
> : ridiculous activities are going on in TN.
>
> People can pray in their homes if that is all they want.
> They go to a temple because th epriest can chant the archana/hymn.
> People like this for the listening pleasure of it.
Oh, come kiss my ass. They pay money to the priest to
sing as if he has a nasal congestion for the listening
pleasure of it? They can spend that money on a good
movie with good music instead.
The people do archanas because they believe they
can get benefits from the gods for it.
> They alone know it's
> pleasure. It is none of your or DMK's business.
If they like it for the listening pleasure, why is
there no protest(from the non-brahmins) regarding the
change of language? They should all come out and say
that they want to keep the archanas in sanskrit for
the listening pleasure of it.
> Most prayesr/chants are eulogies to God using the various names of God.
Then there is no reason why the change in language cannot
be made.
> Anybody who wants to know the meaning is welcome to know it by buyng a book
> of the various names of God and a dictiopnary.
The change in language is cheaper. Where are the
poor people in TN(most of whom are regualar temple goers
going to get a dictionary and a book from?
> There are also books that
> explain the significance of the various things done during a pooja.
Why is it so hard for the priest to explain what
he is doing to anyone who asks? Be he a shudra or not?
> You/one may not agree with all of it. But THOSE WHO WANT TO still go to
> the temple for the effects of listening to the chants has on them. Again...
> it in none of your or the DMK's God-Damn ;-) business.
If you are correct on your "effects of listening" shit, then
the change in language should have a drastic effect on the
number of people going to the temples. Afterall, if the
"listening pleasure" is not being fullfilled, why go there
and pay for archanas right? I can bet your small brain that
the change in language would not effect the number of people
going to the temples at all.
> : > : Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a
> rats ass : > : for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
> : > : dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
> : >
> : > Don't be silly. OK I am repeating too, like you ;-) Where the hell did
> : > you get the 90% figure. The interviews suggested 90% + that they don't
> : > want any change in the language of the archanas of the temples.
>
> : I would like to know where you got that statistic from. Are
> : you telling me that they went and interviwed everyone in TN
> : from the slums to the bungalows and came up with that statistic?
>
> The interviews at the end of the paper did indicate people who are not
> elitist Sanskrit loving bozos. A tea-shop owner, a flower girl, a
> housemaid, a fruit vendor and others are all like what I said...
"A". Not many, but "A" tea-shop owner, etc.
> : Be that as it may, if the language were to change, do
> : you think anyone other than the Brahmins would make
> : a big deal about it? 90% of TN would not care, or
> : mind. In other words, they don't give a shit. How
> : could they, when they don't know a word of Sanskrit?
>
> That is the problem. YOU are making it a BRAHMIN vs NON problem when
> the non of the people interviewd by the author of the article seem to be.
Oh shut up. 90% of the people with hardcore opposition
to the language change are brahmins.
> It should be limited to people who go to temples and thier opinions alone
> should count.
Then interview everyone, or at least most
of those who goes to the temples.
> NOT some BRAHMIN/SANSKRIT hating people like you.
It is not an issue of hate. It is an issue of stupidity.
> It has nothing to do with knowing a word of Sanskrit. Repeating...(you
> seem to need it) people expressed their feeling good listening to these
> chants in Sanskrit(over Tamil).
Over tamil? Wait a minute. If the archanas have not
be done in tamil before, how could they make the comparison?
They have not yet experienced the "listening pleasure" of tamil.
> : > This is an election stunt. These athiest idiots have no business in
> : > messing with what goes on in the tepmles, especially the language of the
> : > archanas, more so when peolple think othewise.
>
> : And which people might this be?
>
> Please read above. The temple-goers. NOBODY else counts.
You mean, "A" tea-shop owner and "A" flower girl?
> : That 90%+ of yours is very dubious.
>
> Your stat so far included only you.
Says who? Like I have not asked around or been
in TN to know what they feel.
> Ramakrishna.
Rajah.
S. Prabaharan
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In soc.culture.tamil ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
: Most prayesr/chants are eulogies to God using the various names of God.
: Anybody who wants to know the meaning is welcome to know it by buyng a book
: of the various names of God and a dictiopnary. There are also books that
: explain the significance of the various things done during a pooja.
: You/one may not agree with all of it. But THOSE WHO WANT TO still go to
: the temple for the effects of listening to the chants has on them. Again...
: it in none of your or the DMK's God-Damn ;-) business.
I think people didn't get (or pretend) DMK's message. DMK is not
interested in religion. They want to stick it to the brahmins in
the last bastion of Sanskrit - temples. As long as brahmins continue
to insist that Sanskrit is devabasha and Tamil is sudrabasha, these
attempts will continue.
Your argument that people should buy a book and understand won't sell.
After all, it is the people who patronize the temples. If the brahmins
build the temples using their own money and maintain it by charging a user
fee, then they can do whatever they want. They can chant mandras in
Sanskrit or Latin. If the temples are public
property, then people will have a say. As some one pointed out, Hinduism
doesn't have a central authority. There are no schools to teach people
to become priests (well only brahmins are admitted into existing
gurukulams) Now, if only the philosopy of
a religion is important, then language doesn't matter. If people
think sanskritized rituals are important, then Tamil Hindus
should reform Hinduism to suit them. Just like the Protestants!!.
I will be happy if people get rid of the rituals as a result of
Tamilization of temples and resort to teaching people the philosopy of
Hinduism. GOd should be able to understand prayer in any language!!
SP
: : > Ramakrishna.
M.Ranganathan
In article <34D4F6...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu>,
Rajah Skandarajah <ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Unlike muslims and Arabic, we(90% of TN) don't give a rats ass
>for sanskrit and that is why the DMK would even try to
>dump sanskrit prayers at Hindu temples.
A sensible way to get this point across would be for Hindus to
campaign outside temples or boycott "Sanskrit temples" or even
create new "Tamil Temples" rather than getting the Govt involved.
In fact, if Hindus care about the longterm survival of Hinduism,
they should "take the religion to the masses". The Catholics did
this by changing the litturgical language from Latin to any regional
language.
Getting the Govt involved in something like this however is opening a
pandora's box. It opens the doors to a theocratic setup. It is
fundamentally wrong. If the govt can force its will on the way Hindus
practice hinduism, whats to prevent it from doing the same thing with
Islam? or Budhism? or any other ism you would care to follow.
India is a SECULAR state. I wonder if you know what that means.
Ranga.
>
> Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
M.Ranganathan wrote:
> If the govt can force its will on the way Hindus
> practice hinduism, whats to prevent it from doing the same thing with
> Islam? or Budhism? or any other ism you would care to follow.
But that's just it. To apply force to get something
done implies that their exists a resistance in getting it
done. TN tamils(90% of them) are posing no resistance
to what the DMK wants to do. They simply don't care
whether the language is Sanskrit or Tamil(although some prefer
Tamil). So the concept of the DMK
forcing TN Hindus to do something does not exist. Ok,
so there is the small 10% or even less, but that percentage
is there is anything to be done in the world(Not to mention
the fact that the 10% in the case of TN Hindus put 0% money
into the temples).
With respect to Islam and Buddhism, if the DMK were
to change the language or do something that caused the
Muslims and Buddhists to protest against it and the govt
does carry it out anyway, then one can say that the
govt forced its will on them.
> India is a SECULAR state. I wonder if you know what that means.
Well gosh and darn!!!! Is that so???
> Ranga.
Rajah.
Pradip Parekh
The Sanskrit language is the language of Hindu (ie Vedic) religion and
spirituality all across India. Sanskrit's presence can be felt in temples
everywhere where Hindus, of all linguistic backgrounds, converge seeking
inner peace. My point is Sanskrit thus serves mysteriously, or divinely, as
great reinforcer of our bonds of commonality. Since India is already ridden
with so many pulls threatening its integrity, retention of Sanskrit is a
good idea, at least at this juncture, apart from all other eloquent reasons
given by different learned gentlemen here. A man from Punjab or Gujarat or
Bengal on a visit to TamilNadu will feel greatly at home if he hears
Sanskrit pooja there (eventhough he may not understand Sanskrit); and same
would hold true for a Tamil gentleman visiting Puri, Dwaraka or Rishikesh.
India can use all the points of commonality it can get.
India is increasingly becoming a small place due to its expanding economy,
and people are constantly travelling and relocating from state to state in
the country, and such consideration on part of powers that be in TamilNadu
will be greatly appreciated by entire country.
One is not opposes to use of Tamil when it serves to enhance once
spirituality, but Sanskrit also needs to be accorded its honorable place (it
is definitely not going to in anyone's way). If Canada can mange its affairs
by accommodating two rival languages 24 hrs a day, why can't the Hindus live
with two languages which are their own for a few minutes in God's home? Pls
keep India together.
JaiHind
Pradip Parekh
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote:
: > Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
: > Why bother about what happens
: > in India and that too to Hindus, which you are decidedly are not one.
: Why bother? I care for my fellow man. Is that
: something new to you? If I see someone being
: exploited, especially if he is one of my people,
: ofcourse I would bother.
Mr.Rajah:
Your good intentions are appreciated. However your arguements in many of
your posts have failed to convince me that, that is what you care for. You
dislike Sanskrit and Brahmins, about which I really have NO problem. In
fact I do understand it, whether you believe it or not.
The point you see but want to dodge(I feel) is really simple.
Let the temple goers worry about the choice of the language in
which the prayers are to be said. But you and DMK(neither of who gives
a, what's that? Rat's ass ;-) about Hinduism or Temples) want to stand by
your fellow man who is NOT being exploited. Those who go to the temples are
going on their own. Nobody put a gun to their head to go to a temple.
They don't care if they understand what is being chanted or not, and
while that may amuse a lot, is none o fyour business, as it is a matter
of their choice/faith and something they enjoy.
Two things....
1. Don't fix it, if it ain't broke!
2. State should not interfer with religion either, just as much as all of
us don't want religion to interfere with state.
3. If the DMK govt wants to change this, let it do for all religions. I
am challenging you and DMK that you don't have to balls to do this to
say Muslims. Admit it instead of rationalising that Tamil Muslims don't
want it. Tamil Hindus didn't want it either, your concern for you fellow
man not withstanding.
So please tell me/us why are you having such a hard time grapling this simple
thing.
And... all Tamil Muslims know/understand Arabic(the prayers part)?
How do you know(even if it true). This is is a satement made by you which
is ridiculous. Please tell us if you will, how do you know. Thanks.
: > So, don't talk of "we" as if you are one of Hindus
: When I said "we" above, I said "we(90% of TN)". I
: did not say Hindus.
Your 90% is the sinlegton = "you" * 90% ;-)
Take it easy.
: Rajah.
Regards,
Ramakrishna.
--
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
: >
: > Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: > : Mo wrote:
: >
: > total nonsense.
: Can you show me where I said "majority wants it"?
I guess your oft repeated 90% of TN is 'majority' over say a 10% ;-)
: I said the majority does not care.
Then why change it at all?
: > Ok don't shoot. Not yet. Please read the interviews
: > with the four women at the end of the article(and more before), which is a
: > small but important opinion poll, IMO.
: Thats just it, it is "small". Four women, WOW!!, now
: that really speaks for TN.
: > Extrapolating the results of those
: > interviewed at the end,
: I'll tell you what. Go and interview the same
: amount of people in the slums as to whether
: they care for the lanuguage, be it sanskrit
: or tamil, and then extrapolate those results.
Like I said before, only Temple goers count. NOT slum dwellers. For the
simple reason, it doesn't affect their lives.
: > (who expressed sensible views, IMO) these athiest
: > idiots have no business to change the language of archanas from the
: > beautiful/musical Sanskrit to the not so ... Tamil.
: I don't think so. You are bringing personal opinions
: into this.
Please read the article on the rediff site, before you say what you said
above.
: Many people have a hard time facing the
: reality that Sanskrit is dead.
It is irrelevant for this discussion what you beleive about this.
Princeton gives its degrees in Latin, which is supposedly dead.
The govt need not interfere to change that.
: Ok, ok, so some
: of you believe that it is the "intergalactic language"
: spoken by aliens and what not, but I, for some reason,
: have a hard time believing it.
Your sarcasm aside... read some linguists'(like Noam Chaumski) opinion
about this language. Maybe you will still hate it. But try it.
: Rajah.
Ramakrishna.
--
Mo
existing gurukulams<
Well if this true then its illegal under India's laws and
these schools should be closed down. A good way is to have a
quota system here say with 50% from non Brahmin castes at
least. And any passages in the scriptures offensive to lower
castes -I dont know of any because I dont have time to read
scriptures myself -should be removed.
As somebody said Hindu Gods have been invented from time
immorial like Santoshi Ma in the last 50 years and the good
things about Hindu thought and culture should be open to all
groups to study and preach.
Mo
If the govt runs the temples than maybe it has the right to
insist on Tamil as the primary language. In fact India
should adopt Tamil along with English and Hindi as the three
official languages. It is not fair that a Dravidian language
-the most ancient and which has such a rich literature
should not be compulsory for all Indians to learn.
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
: > They don't mind being ruled by the *REAL* white guys but not some desi
: Yeah right. Who is running after Sonia's sari?
NOT ME! ;-) Arjun Singh, Scindia, Tiwari, Reddy(Vijaya Bhaskar),
Karunakaran, Pawar, Pilot, Dhawan, Mukherjee, that idiot VP.Singh(he gave
Sonia a clean chit in the Bofors deal).... and the list goes on. FYI. ;-)
: > brownies/wheaties ;-) and would not mind *ENGLISH* but have a problem
: > with the mother of all(most) Indian languages, except Tamiz of
: > course(fortunately), ;-) Sanskrit.
: English is a useful language in this day and age. What
: are you talking in now? Sanskrit, is a USELESS
: language in this day and age(at least on this plannet for
: all those "intergalactic sanskrit" fans).
So use English where you need it(jobs etc.,). Use Sanskrit in matters
less mundane, like prayers etc., because it has a good effect according
to those like it. What's your problem?
: > No I am not underminig the intelligence of
: > these women, on the contrary I am very happy to see them being sensible,
: > which is too much to expect from Tamil-Rat-Rajah ;-) for whose sake I
: > kept the relevant parts of stats like 99% of those the author talked to
: > did NOT want the change and felt that 'athiest-faggots' ;-) don't have
: > any business meddling with things religious and what the heck,
: +
: > I will
: > challenge these bastards to mess with the Tamil Muslims or other minorities,
: > asking them to change their language too, just too see the bravado of the
: > rats!
: Why should we?
Who the hell is 'we'. Speak for your self.
: The Tamils muslims don't want to change their
: language.
They all condided in you? ;-) Take it easy Mr.Rajah.
: They have a preference for Arabic, not to mention the
: fact that they know what is being said to their god.
I would not want the DMK govt to interfere with their Arabic prayers
either and don't believe you on the later(that they understand what is
being said).
: The Tamil
: Hindus on the other hand DON'T have a preference,
A good reason for the govt NOT to interfer and CHANGE it.
: and they
: certainly do not understand what is being said by the Brahmin farts
: to the gods.
Your personal dislikes aside, it is NONE of your ot DMK's business.
Repeating.... they just like the sound of it and can learn and understand
it if *THEY* want to, assuming you are right.
: I am really surprised that this still hasn't sunk
: into your thick skull.
So be it. I am still hoping that something will sink into your thin skull!
: RK,
:
: When you want to argue with me on a point to
: point basis, give me a shout. Till then,
: and all I have to say is:
I did. And will let it rest. Thanks.
: Hare Krishna!! Hail Barney!!!
I like your above prayer. I'll recommend to the ISKCON temple guys
here. Maybe this will attract the kids.
: > Ramakrishna.
: Rajah.
Regards,
Ramakrishna.
--
S. Prabaharan
873....@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> <6b32vs$mei$3...@eros.clara.net>
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In soc.culture.tamil Pradip Parekh <a...@VIPTX.net> wrote:
: The Sanskrit language is the language of Hindu (ie Vedic) religion and
: spirituality all across India. Sanskrit's presence can be felt in temples
: everywhere where Hindus, of all linguistic backgrounds, converge seeking
: inner peace. My point is Sanskrit thus serves mysteriously, or divinely, as
: great reinforcer of our bonds of commonality. Since India is already ridden
: with so many pulls threatening its integrity, retention of Sanskrit is a
: good idea, at least at this juncture, apart from all other eloquent reasons
: given by different learned gentlemen here. A man from Punjab or Gujarat or
: Bengal on a visit to TamilNadu will feel greatly at home if he hears
: Sanskrit pooja there (eventhough he may not understand Sanskrit); and same
: would hold true for a Tamil gentleman visiting Puri, Dwaraka or Rishikesh.
: India can use all the points of commonality it can get.
The commanality is the set up and the deities. If you want people to
understand what the hell is going on in the temples may be you should
ask the priests to chant their mantras in English. In reality, however,
Gujaratis go to the temples run by their people, South Indians go to
the temples run by their people, etc. (I am talking about US).
What you don't understand is that the opposition to Sanskrit in TN
is not because of the language Sanskrit. It is because of the
arrogant attitude of brahmins towards Tamil/s in TN. The brahmins
in general made a huge mistake in the past. They kept others out
of Sanskrit and Vedas. It was ok during the days of authoritarian
kings. They were able to shit all over the majority and still
revered and respected. In the modern day, the past mistakes are
boomeranging on them, especially in TN!!
SP
: Pradip Parekh
Raghu Seshadri
: What you don't understand is that the opposition to Sanskrit in TN
: is not because of the language Sanskrit. It is because of the
: arrogant attitude of brahmins towards Tamil/s in TN. The brahmins
: in general made a huge mistake in the past. They kept others out
: of Sanskrit and Vedas. It was ok during the days of authoritarian
: kings. They were able to shit all over the majority and still
: revered and respected. In the modern day, the past mistakes are
: boomeranging on them, especially in TN!!
As factual reporting, this is correct,
but if you speak approvingly of this
barbarism, the following may also be
said with equal accuracy -
In the past centuries, Tamils regularly
attacked Sri Lanka, looted that island
and set its cities on fire. Now those
past mistakes are boomeranging on them !!!
Seeking vengeance from the present generation
for things done by their ancestors is
a primitive, savage mentality only
indulged in by low, uncouth barbarians.
I'd have thought that victims of
Sri Lankan savagery would not espouse these
ugly sentiments themselves.
RS
S. Prabaharan
j91$4...@eros.clara.net> <6bcgr1$q...@nnrp2.farm.idt.net>
<6bd44a$4...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>:
Organization: IDT Internet Services
Distribution:
In soc.culture.tamil Raghu Seshadri <sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote:
: : What you don't understand is that the opposition to Sanskrit in TN
: : is not because of the language Sanskrit. It is because of the
: : arrogant attitude of brahmins towards Tamil/s in TN. The brahmins
: : in general made a huge mistake in the past. They kept others out
: : of Sanskrit and Vedas. It was ok during the days of authoritarian
: : kings. They were able to shit all over the majority and still
: : revered and respected. In the modern day, the past mistakes are
: : boomeranging on them, especially in TN!!
: As factual reporting, this is correct,
: but if you speak approvingly of this
: barbarism, the following may also be
: said with equal accuracy -
Hmm. I can't understand why the facts mentioned above should
immediately transcend on another country. In any case, even
now brahmins oppose the use of Tamils in temples because of
the same reasons that were used in the past.
: In the past centuries, Tamils regularly
: attacked Sri Lanka, looted that island
: and set its cities on fire. Now those
: past mistakes are boomeranging on them !!!
: Seeking vengeance from the present generation
: for things done by their ancestors is
: a primitive, savage mentality only
: indulged in by low, uncouth barbarians.
You don't understand the Sri lankan history. There was nothing
in Sri Lanka for Cholas to loot. I never read anywhere that
Cholas looted Sri lanka and took the wealth to India.
May be they took some spices and fish from the north.
Also, the current war in Sri Lanka is not about past invasions by Cholas.
Nor it is about the discrimination of the Sinhalese by the Tamils.
Because it never happened. The Sinhalese want the island for themselves
only. They are not willing to share it with others.
Now having said this, did I ever say that Tamils should kill
brahmins or deny their due place in TN? No. It is the brahmins
who are still opposing the due place of Tamil in the temples.
They (mainly the establishemnt) are working against the intersts
of Sl Tamils. For all these, they are still respected by the
average Tamil.
SP
: RS
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Chukka Srinivas (srin...@news.an.hp.com) wrote:
Thank you sir. I stil got to the temple for the prasadam and used to go for
the 'color' ;-) I can buy cassettes to listen to the chants in my
A.C. car ;-) ;-)
Lighten up Mr.Srinivas. I can see your bleeding *LEFT* ventricle for the
slum dwellers but that you chose only those lines in my entire post is
interesting or should I say revealing your very sensitive nature ;-)(and
have nothing else to say about the whole incident let alone my post).
: -srinivas.
Ramakrishna.
--
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
: >
: > : That's even worse. You tell the Brahmin to conduct
: > : a pooja for you and he himself does not know what
: > : he is saying to the god. Oh "god"!!!! I am
: > : truly depressed that such stupid, moronic, utterly
: > : ridiculous activities are going on in TN.
: >
: > People can pray in their homes if that is all they want.
: > They go to a temple because th epriest can chant the archana/hymn.
: > People like this for the listening pleasure of it.
: Oh, come kiss my ass.
I don't want to pay money for providing you that pleasure. ;-) You can
find tou ilk to do that. And... I dont' care who will pay whom! ;-)
: They pay money to the priest to
: sing as if he has a nasal congestion for the listening
: pleasure of it? They can spend that money on a good
: movie with good music instead.
That is YOUR problem. They can do what they WANT. They don't need your
help in what they can do with their money. Be it giving it to the
temple, priest or to a beggar or throw it in the gutter.
: The people do archanas because they believe they
: can get benefits from the gods for it.
Again you are being judgemental.
: > They alone know it's
: > pleasure. It is none of your or DMK's business.
: If they like it for the listening pleasure, why is
: there no protest(from the non-brahmins) regarding the
: change of language?
How do you know? I don't. I don't know the castes of the various people
interviewed and very much doubt if they belong to what you claim but am
sure you don't know either.
: They should all come out and say
: that they want to keep the archanas in sanskrit for
: the listening pleasure of it.
Well you have to give them that chance to say it. NOT change it and
slip in all the dirty-dravidian-dudes(DDDs) names in the chants ;-)
: > Most prayesr/chants are eulogies to God using the various names of God.
: Then there is no reason why the change in language cannot
: be made.
Absloutely! I didn't say that. If at all it should be done for all
religions as well. Why NOT?
One difference; all the God's names in Sanskrit end 'namah' and in
Tamil in 'poori'( or 'dosa') ;-), one would be thinking of prasadam like
me all the time ;-) ;-)
: > Anybody who wants to know the meaning is welcome to know it by buyng a book
: > of the various names of God and a dictiopnary.
: The change in language is cheaper. Where are the
: poor people in TN(most of whom are regualar temple goers)
: going to get a dictionary and a book from?
You are assuming that they want to know what is being said, rather than
enjoy the chants.
: > There are also books that
: > explain the significance of the various things done during a pooja.
: Why is it so hard for the priest to explain what
: he is doing to anyone who asks? Be he a shudra or not?
You are making unecessary assumptions again. If the preist doesn't
explain to a shudra he is being a jerk. If he can't explain...(because
he doesn't know and may not admit it) the caste of the person wanting to
know is irrelevant.
: > You/one may not agree with all of it. But THOSE WHO WANT TO still go to
: > the temple for the effects of listening to the chants has on them. Again...
: > it in none of your or the DMK's God-Damn ;-) business.
: If you are correct on your "effects of listening" shit, then
^^^^
: the change in language should have a drastic effect on the
: number of people going to the temples.
NOT true. We are living day in an day out with all kinds of
deterioriation, like your language above ;-) Take it easy.
: Afterall, if the
: "listening pleasure" is not being fullfilled, why go there
: and pay for archanas right?
YOU are NOT to be the judge of that. People can do it without your help.
: I can bet your small brain that
: the change in language would not effect the number of people
: going to the temples at all.
Please read above.
: > : Be that as it may, if the language were to change, do
: > : you think anyone other than the Brahmins would make
: > : a big deal about it? 90% of TN would not care, or
: > : mind. In other words, they don't give a shit. How
: > : could they, when they don't know a word of Sanskrit?
: > It should be limited to people who go to temples and thier opinions alone
: > should count.
: Then interview everyone, or at least most of those who goes to the temples.
NOW we are talking. That should be done and until then don't change it.
: > NOT some BRAHMIN/SANSKRIT hating people like you.
: It is not an issue of hate. It is an issue of stupidity.
NOT really. Be honest.
: > It has nothing to do with knowing a word of Sanskrit. Repeating...(you
: > seem to need it) people expressed their feeling good listening to these
: > chants in Sanskrit(over Tamil).
: Over tamil? Wait a minute. If the archanas have not
: be done in tamil before, how could they make the comparison?
: They have not yet experienced the "listening pleasure" of tamil.
'over' = preference of one 'over' the other. Guess it wasn't clear.
Those interviewed said this. NOT me.
: Rajah.
Ramakrishna.
--
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
S. Prabaharan (ha...@IDT.NET) wrote:
: j91$1...@eros.clara.net> <34D4F6...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu>
: <6b5h2n$5...@news.asu.edu> <34D64F...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> <6baeqs$j...@news.asu.edu>:
: Organization: IDT Internet Services
: Distribution:
: In soc.culture.tamil ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
: : Most prayesr/chants are eulogies to God using the various names of God.
: : Anybody who wants to know the meaning is welcome to know it by buyng a book
: : of the various names of God and a dictiopnary. There are also books that
: : explain the significance of the various things done during a pooja.
: : You/one may not agree with all of it. But THOSE WHO WANT TO still go to
: : the temple for the effects of listening to the chants has on them. Again...
: : it in none of your or the DMK's God-Damn ;-) business.
: I think people didn't get (or pretend) DMK's message. DMK is not
: interested in religion. They want to stick it to the brahmins in
: the last bastion of Sanskrit - temples. As long as brahmins continue
: to insist that Sanskrit is devabasha and Tamil is sudrabasha, these
: attempts will continue.
The prefixes... 'deva' 'sudra' if attributed to a language is stupid and
you are right.
: a religion is important, then language doesn't matter. If people
: think sanskritized rituals are important, then Tamil Hindus
The arguement against rituals(like those agaisnt idol worship) are
interestingly debateable. We do a lot of them without questioning.
Birth days, anniversaries, and a host of such things.
: should reform Hinduism to suit them. Just like the Protestants!!.
: I will be happy if people get rid of the rituals as a result of
Please read above.
: Tamilization of temples and resort to teaching people the philosopy of
: Hinduism. GOd should be able to understand prayer in any language!!
One can still read/learn the philosophy and yes language doesn't matter
for a prayer.
: SP
: : : > Ramakrishna.
Ramakrishna.
--
Raghu Seshadri
S. Prabaharan (ha...@IDT.NET) wrote:
: : : revered and respected. In the modern day, the past mistakes are
: : : boomeranging on them, especially in TN!!
:
: : As factual reporting, this is correct,
: : but if you speak approvingly of this
: : barbarism, the following may also be
: : said with equal accuracy -
:
: Hmm. I can't understand why the facts mentioned above should
: immediately transcend on another country. In any case, even
: now brahmins oppose the use of Tamils in temples because of
: the same reasons that were used in the past.
The main reason for the just
resentment, that only Brahmins could learn
Sanskrit, has now vanished. The argument is
not about use of tamil , but retention of
Sanskrit. So now the bigoty-filled past
need not haunt us and control our future.
Things can be judged afresh.
: : In the past centuries, Tamils regularly
: : attacked Sri Lanka, looted that island
: : and set its cities on fire. Now those
: : past mistakes are boomeranging on them !!!
:
: : Seeking vengeance from the present generation
: : for things done by their ancestors is
: : a primitive, savage mentality only
: : indulged in by low, uncouth barbarians.
:
: You don't understand the Sri lankan history. There was nothing
: in Sri Lanka for Cholas to loot. I never read anywhere that
: Cholas looted Sri lanka and took the wealth to India.
: May be they took some spices and fish from the north.
Perhaps you should learn more history.
Not only the Cholas, but the Pandyas
were also active in invading and looting
the island. Several great cities were burnt down
in these invasions.
Sundara Pandyan is famous for NOT looting
the island, which should tell you what
was considered normal behavior for
Tamil kings in Sri Lanka.
: Also, the current war in Sri Lanka is not about past invasions by Cholas.
: Nor it is about the discrimination of the Sinhalese by the Tamils.
: Because it never happened. The Sinhalese want the island for themselves
: only. They are not willing to share it with others.
All correct, I don't dispute with any of this.
But an anti-Tamil can portray it that way,
using your style of argumentation. That is what
I am pointing out.
Whenever you justify today's injustice
against party X saying X's ancestors did bad
things in the past, this argument can be used
against you too.
As Mr Rajah says with his characteristic
un-inhibition, the Sanskrit issue is not
about CORRECTING wrongs, it is about sticking it
to the Brahmins, in other words, doing wrong today
to party X for the wrongs done by party X's ancestors.
Sri Lankan tamils are particularly vulnerable
if this argument has any merit.
: Now having said this, did I ever say that Tamils should kill
: brahmins or deny their due place in TN? No. It is the brahmins
: who are still opposing the due place of Tamil in the temples.
If we all agree on the definition of "due place"
there would be no argument, right ? It is not clear
to me why Sanskrit has to be abandoned totally
in order to give Tamil this due place.
: They (mainly the establishemnt) are working against the intersts
: of Sl Tamils. For all these, they are still respected by the
: average Tamil.
In India, this establishment is no longer composed
of Brahmins, in the political and policy making
arenas today. So establishment does not equal brahmins.
The establishment might well not be working for
Sl tamils, but brahmins have little to do with
this. This increasingly weakened minority cannot
even hold its own anymore, cannot fight the
huge injustices against itself that are part of Govt
policy anymore. It is fanciful (and more than a little
paranoid) to allege that they are capable of
harming others.
RS
:
: SP
: : RS
M. Ranjit Mathews
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
> : to insist that Sanskrit is devabasha and Tamil is sudrabasha, these
> : attempts will continue.
Sanskrit is devabasha and Tamizh is kaDavuLbasha :-)
Rajah Skandarajah
Raghu Seshadri wrote:
>
> : What you don't understand is that the opposition to Sanskrit in TN
> : is not because of the language Sanskrit. It is because of the
> : arrogant attitude of brahmins towards Tamil/s in TN. The brahmins
> : in general made a huge mistake in the past. They kept others out
> : of Sanskrit and Vedas. It was ok during the days of authoritarian
> : kings. They were able to shit all over the majority and still
> : boomeranging on them, especially in TN!!
>
> As factual reporting, this is correct,
> but if you speak approvingly of this
> barbarism, the following may also be
> said with equal accuracy -
>
> attacked Sri Lanka, looted that island
> and set its cities on fire. Now those
> past mistakes are boomeranging on them !!!
Uh....Raghu, are you confusing the
Cholas for Hanuman?
> Seeking vengeance from the present generation
> for things done by their ancestors is
> a primitive, savage mentality only
> indulged in by low, uncouth barbarians.
What are you talking about? Like the Brahmins
today are any better. The only reason why
it may seem so is because they have lost the
power they once held over the masses. Even
today, the Vedas and Sanskrit are off-limits
to people, and mutts and gurukulams
and brahmin teachers only teach to brahmins.
With all that, I truly find it surprising that
you complain about reservations. The Brahmins
should thank their stars that they at least
get some seats in college while carrying out
their 100% discrimination in their mutts and
schools in TN.
> RS
Rajah.
Raghu Seshadri
Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: > In the past centuries, Tamils regularly
: > attacked Sri Lanka, looted that island
: > and set its cities on fire. Now those
: > past mistakes are boomeranging on them !!!
:
: Uh....Raghu, are you confusing the
: Cholas for Hanuman?
No sir, as far as I know, the Cholas
had no tail.
: > Seeking vengeance from the present generation
: > for things done by their ancestors is
: > a primitive, savage mentality only
: > indulged in by low, uncouth barbarians.
:
: What are you talking about? Like the Brahmins
: today are any better. The only reason why
: it may seem so is because they have lost the
: power they once held over the masses. Even
: today, the Vedas and Sanskrit are off-limits
: to people, and mutts and gurukulams
: and brahmin teachers only teach to brahmins.
I read this reply twice, I do not see
how this constitutes seeking vengeance
from the present generation for things
done by their ancestors.
Btw, I don't know about some conservative
mutts, you may well be right there,
but vedas and sanskrit are no longer
off limits to anyone who wants to learn
them. Swami Chinmayananda's org teaches
both to anyone interested.
: With all that, I truly find it surprising that
: you complain about reservations.
You find it surprising that a victim
would complain about injustice ? :-)
Perhaps you compliment the guy who
kicks you and ask for more, but I wouldn't
consider this behavior common.
:The Brahmins
: should thank their stars that they at least
: get some seats in college while carrying out
: their 100% discrimination in their mutts and
: schools in TN.
I have already said what sort of
people exact "revenge" on unrelated
children, so no need to repeat
myself. Are you under the impression
that the mutt organizers are the ones
applying to schools and colleges ? :-)
RS
:
: > RS
:
:
: Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
Raghu Seshadri wrote:
>
> As Mr Rajah says with his characteristic
> un-inhibition, the Sanskrit issue is not
> about CORRECTING wrongs, it is about sticking it
> to the Brahmins, in other words, doing wrong today
> to party X for the wrongs done by party X's ancestors.
Mr. Rajah has never said such a thing. I believe
ir was Mr.SP who said something about "sticking it"
to the Brahmins.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu wrote:
> : They pay money to the priest to
> : sing as if he has a nasal congestion for the listening
> : pleasure of it? They can spend that money on a good
> : movie with good music instead.
>
> That is YOUR problem. They can do what they WANT. They don't need your
> help in what they can do with their money. Be it giving it to the
> temple, priest or to a beggar or throw it in the gutter.
Oi DUMBO, you said that they give money for the "listening
pleasure" of it, I am saying "NO, that is not true". What
the hell are you talking about my problem, their problem?
Did you not learn to read properly?
> : The people do archanas because they believe they
> : can get benefits from the gods for it.
>
> Again you are being judgemental.
So you are saying that most of the people who
go to the temple and do archanas don't go to pray and
get something from god, but for the "listening pleasure"
of mantrams eh?
I'll tell you what. Just for the sake of your
stupid, mutt brain, I'll call my brother in Madurai
today and tell him to go to Meenachi temple
within the next week for one day and ask anyone and almost
everyone he can find, why they come to temple, and
what they seek from god, and if they do archanas
and come there for the "listening pleasure" of it.
If he calls back and tells me what I have been trying
to push through that thick head of yours for some time
now, I will track you down, and shove a sanskrit dictionary
up your .... you know what.
Deal?
>
> : > They alone know it's
> : > pleasure. It is none of your or DMK's business.
>
> : If they like it for the listening pleasure, why is
> : there no protest(from the non-brahmins) regarding the
> : change of language?
>
> How do you know?
Because there have not been any protests DUMBO.
I am sure that the media and newspapers in TN
are able enough to cover a mass protest don't
you think?
>
> : They should all come out and say
> : that they want to keep the archanas in sanskrit for
> : the listening pleasure of it.
>
> Well you have to give them that chance to say it.
Well, I am waiting. How long do you want me
to wait? A year? If a change in Arabic prayers
is to be announced, how long do you
think it would take for people to come out and
say something?
> : > Most prayesr/chants are eulogies to God using the various names of God.
>
> : Then there is no reason why the change in language cannot
> : be made.
>
> Absloutely! I didn't say that. If at all it should be done for all
> religions as well. Why NOT?
Because, for the nth time, the people in the other
religions don't want it as such. But the majority of TN Hindus
don't mind the language change.
> One difference; all the God's names in Sanskrit end 'namah' and in
> Tamil in 'poori'( or 'dosa') ;-), one would be thinking of prasadam like
> me all the time ;-) ;-)
I think the prasadam has seeped into your
brain.
> : > Anybody who wants to know the meaning is welcome to know it by buyng a book
> : > of the various names of God and a dictiopnary.
>
> : The change in language is cheaper. Where are the
> : poor people in TN(most of whom are regualar temple goers)
> : going to get a dictionary and a book from?
>
> You are assuming that they want to know what is being said, rather than
> enjoy the chants.
Assuming? You are the one who has said above, that "anyone
who wants to know..." etc.
> : > There are also books that
> : > explain the significance of the various things done during a pooja.
>
> : Why is it so hard for the priest to explain what
> : he is doing to anyone who asks? Be he a shudra or not?
>
> You are making unecessary assumptions again.
And what assumptions might that be?
> If the preist doesn't
> explain to a shudra he is being a jerk.
The DMK wants to protect the people from jerks.
> If he can't explain...(because
> he doesn't know and may not admit it) the caste of the person wanting to
> know is irrelevant.
If he can't explain because he does not know, then
he is exploiting the person paying him money
to pray on behalf of him to the god. The DMK wants
to protect the people from such exploitation.
> : > You/one may not agree with all of it. But THOSE WHO WANT TO still go to
> : > the temple for the effects of listening to the chants has on them. Again...
> : > it in none of your or the DMK's God-Damn ;-) business.
>
> : If you are correct on your "effects of listening" shit, then
> ^^^^
> : the change in language should have a drastic effect on the
> : number of people going to the temples.
>
> NOT true.
Why so?
> : Afterall, if the
> : "listening pleasure" is not being fullfilled, why go there
> : and pay for archanas right?
>
> YOU are NOT to be the judge of that. People can do it without your help.
DUMBO, I am repeating what you said. You say that
people go there for the listening pleasure of it. So
using YOUR assumption, I said that if the the language
were to change and people don't get the "listening pleasure"
anymore, they would not go there would they?
Are you an ESL student?
> : I can bet your small brain that
> : the change in language would not effect the number of people
> : going to the temples at all.
>
> Please read above.
Please learn to read.
> : > : Be that as it may, if the language were to change, do
> : > : you think anyone other than the Brahmins would make
> : > : a big deal about it? 90% of TN would not care, or
> : > : mind. In other words, they don't give a shit. How
> : > : could they, when they don't know a word of Sanskrit?
>
> : > It should be limited to people who go to temples and thier opinions alone
> : > should count.
>
> : Then interview everyone, or at least most of those who goes to the temples.
>
> NOW we are talking. That should be done and until then don't change it.
Its going to be done. And you better pray
for your soon to be sore behind, that you are right.
> : > It has nothing to do with knowing a word of Sanskrit. Repeating...(you
> : > seem to need it) people expressed their feeling good listening to these
> : > chants in Sanskrit(over Tamil).
>
> : Over tamil? Wait a minute. If the archanas have not
> : be done in tamil before, how could they make the comparison?
> : They have not yet experienced the "listening pleasure" of tamil.
>
> 'over' = preference of one 'over' the other.
But they haven't heard the "other" to have preference
"over" it.
> Guess it wasn't clear.
> Those interviewed said this. NOT me.
Post the article.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
Raghu Seshadri wrote:
> : > Seeking vengeance from the present generation
> : > for things done by their ancestors is
> : > a primitive, savage mentality only
> : > indulged in by low, uncouth barbarians.
> :
> : What are you talking about? Like the Brahmins
> : today are any better. The only reason why
> : it may seem so is because they have lost the
> : power they once held over the masses. Even
> : today, the Vedas and Sanskrit are off-limits
> : to people, and mutts and gurukulams
> : and brahmin teachers only teach to brahmins.
>
> I read this reply twice, I do not see
> how this constitutes seeking vengeance
> from the present generation for things
> done by their ancestors.
Because it is not the ancestors TODAY
who are discriminating against non-brahmins.
You speak as if your ancestors were all
bad, while the present generation are all
lovey-dovey.
> :The Brahmins
> : should thank their stars that they at least
> : get some seats in college while carrying out
> : their 100% discrimination in their mutts and
> : schools in TN.
>
> I have already said what sort of
> people exact "revenge" on unrelated
> children,
And I have already spoken about this
"unrelated" stuff above.
Rajah.
M.Ranganathan
In article <34D5F3...@okstate.edu>, <@okstate.edu> wrote:
>the issue. The issue is whether the temples run by TN govt. should use
>Tamil for prayers or not. The govt. run by DMK has every legal and
>constitutional right to do that. It is the obligation for the DMK to
>implement that policy.
There is nothing constitutional about the Tamil Nadoo govt running
Temples in a secular state. Stop spouting nonsense about the Indian
constitution, you nitwit.
Ranga.
>
>Muthu.
Raghu Seshadri
I am sorry for the error. My apologies.
RS
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
: Oi DUMBO, you said that they give money for the "listening
: pleasure" of it, I am saying "NO, that is not true". What
The 'listening pleasure' is limited to the chants and archanas. I don't
know and don't care why people go to temples. I am sure different people
have different reasons and that is NONE of my bisiness or yours!
: the hell are you talking about my problem, their problem?
: Did you not learn to read properly?
: > : The people do archanas because they believe they
: > : can get benefits from the gods for it.
: >
: > Again you are being judgemental.
: So you are saying that most of the people who
: go to the temple and do archanas don't go to pray and
: get something from god, but for the "listening pleasure"
: of mantrams eh?
I am not saying that. You are. I already said it. I don't know and it
is none of my business why people go to temples. I have a clue of the
various possible reasons, including what you mentioned
: I'll tell you what. Just for the sake of your
: stupid, mutt brain, I'll call my brother in Madurai
: today and tell him to go to Meenachi temple
: within the next week for one day and ask anyone and almost
: everyone he can find, why they come to temple, and
: what they seek from god, and if they do archanas
: and come there for the "listening pleasure" of it.
Don't waste your money on that. You already wasted too much time on this.
: > : They should all come out and say
: > : that they want to keep the archanas in sanskrit for
: > : the listening pleasure of it.
: >
: > Well you have to give them that chance to say it.
: Well, I am waiting. How long do you want me
: to wait? A year? If a change in Arabic prayers
: is to be announced, how long do you
: think it would take for people to come out and
: say something?
That is precisely the point Mo is trying to make you understand. It is
our of fear but NOT love for the Muslims that the DMK govt will NOT dare
do this to them. Where as it will do this because Hindus will not react
like that. Thanks for agreeing in your own way.
: > If the preist doesn't
: > explain to a shudra he is being a jerk.
: The DMK wants to protect the people from jerks.
When nobody complained?
: > If he can't explain...(because
: > he doesn't know and may not admit it) the caste of the person wanting to
: > know is irrelevant.
: If he can't explain because he does not know, then
: he is exploiting the person paying him money
: to pray on behalf of him to the god. The DMK wants
: to protect the people from such exploitation.
I think you have this all figured out in your head in a different way
from the way I understand it.
One can pray for one's self without the middle man/woman(yes there are
woman priests in India, recently it started in Kerala) priest. And one
need not get any archana done and hence no need to pay for it. They can
stand in the vicinity and listen to it when somebody else is getting it
done ;-) So there is no exploitation there. I don't see what the DMK is
protecting. A non-existant exploitation?
: > : > It should be limited to people who go to temples and thier opinions alone
: > : > should count.
: > : Then interview everyone, or at least most of those who goes to the temples.
: >
: > NOW we are talking. That should be done and until then don't change it.
: Its going to be done. And you better pray
: for your soon to be sore behind, that you are right.
You will not believe the article posted and I have to belive you? ;-) OK ...
I will.
: > : > It has nothing to do with knowing a word of Sanskrit. Repeating...(you
: > : > seem to need it) people expressed their feeling good listening to these
: > : > chants in Sanskrit(over Tamil).
: >
: > : Over tamil? Wait a minute. If the archanas have not
: > : be done in tamil before, how could they make the comparison?
: > : They have not yet experienced the "listening pleasure" of tamil.
: >
: > 'over' = preference of one 'over' the other.
: But they haven't heard the "other" to have preference
: "over" it.
: > Guess it wasn't clear.
: > Those interviewed said this. NOT me.
: Post the article.
I'll mail it to you. Don't see any need for a 2nd copy of it residing on the
servers.
: Rajah.
Ramakrishna.
--
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
<deleted>
: Post the article.
Mr.Rajah:
I tried to mail you the article. It bounced.
So here is the URL:
http://www.rediff.com/style/1998/jan/30tamil.htm
If you have problem accessing it, let me know(send me email) I'll mail
you the text.
: Rajah.
Ramakrishna.
--
P.S.: What is an ESL school? I am sure it's not going to be something
pleasant ;-)
Raghu Seshadri
Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: > : today, the Vedas and Sanskrit are off-limits
: > : to people, and mutts and gurukulams
: > : and brahmin teachers only teach to brahmins.
: >
: > I read this reply twice, I do not see
: > how this constitutes seeking vengeance
: > from the present generation for things
: > done by their ancestors.
:
: Because it is not the ancestors TODAY
: who are discriminating against non-brahmins.
: You speak as if your ancestors were all
: bad, while the present generation are all
: lovey-dovey.
Let me understand your argument.
Some brahmins ( a teeny minority of a
small minority) reportedly discriminate,
so the Govt, instead of acting against
this discrimination, should itself
perpetrate fresh injustice. Great argument,
guy.
So if some members of your caste
rob banks, the Govt should not stop
the robbings, but should punish totally
unrelated people like yourself just because they
belong to this caste.
If being denied the veda and sanskrit
is the injustice that motivates the
govt, the logical thing to do is
to make learning them universally
available, and ban this discrimination.
That would solve the problem at the
root. Instead you want to create new
injustices against totally uninvolved
people who don't even know such mutts
exist. This is exactly what I was
talking about - "revenge" against
innocent people who just happen to be
born in certain families..
: > :The Brahmins
: > : should thank their stars that they at least
: > : get some seats in college while carrying out
: > : their 100% discrimination in their mutts and
: > : schools in TN.
: >
: > I have already said what sort of
: > people exact "revenge" on unrelated
: > children,
:
: And I have already spoken about this
: "unrelated" stuff above.
What is it that you have spoken ?
Unless you can show that only the
organizers of these mutts ( and not their
children) have been discriminated against,
where is your case ?
Do you want to be punished for
all the bad things your caste members
did and do ? I am sure your caste members
are numerically well-represented
in the criminal segment of the population.
Why don't you check into jail then ?
RS
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
Constitution and justice also lets a party raze a mosque to ground and
still contest for power. The same law lets the savundi periyavaaL
/sinnavaaL and other vaals invite politicians to
their quarters and meddle in politics. Where is secularism. And
which constitution lets this fellow feed on the grant given by kings.
And you argued let the people
decide. Now you cry foul when a Govt of a `people' makes a decision
for its `people'. That is brahmanical doublespeak for you ole Ranga.
Now face the reality. All your ancestors did was suck the kings
and suppress Tamil being used temples. Insulting Tamil by calling
it neecha baasha and Tamils (sUdrAs) seem
to be the past-time of a powerful brahmins throughout history.
Now it is time for correction and not revenge. If any of you apologists
have any heart you would apologize for all the mistakes you
fellas are still perpetrating in the name of God. But you fellows
try to make it as if DMK is out to get you by your throat. Ridicule
Karunannithi as a barber etc. Have some sense of shame you rascals.
How condescending they write `pUsai thamizhilum seyyappadum' in
Madurai temple
Why this illuppu. Now what the Govt has done is pUsai thamizhil
seyyappadum. Period. You might want to do it in Sanskrit as a special
request. But Tamil does not take the backseat.
Only when a Chola king threatened
to stop food (free) supply to feed brahmins they disclosed the hidden
Tamil thirumurai's. These are well documented.
Parthasarati Dileepan
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi wrote in message <34DB30...@nortel.ca>...
>
>Now face the reality. All your ancestors did was suck the kings
>and suppress Tamil being used temples.
Here is what ThirvaLLuvar had to say about the nexus between
brahmins and kings:
"andhaNar nooRkum aRaththiRkum Adhiyaay
ninRadhu mannavan kOl."
Now, Sri Kathir, one of the Tamil verses that is recited
everyday in many Vaishnavaite temples is:
Verse 4 of ThiruppaLLiyezhuchchi by Thondaradippodi Azhvaar:
"mEttiLa mEthikaL thaLaividum aayargaL
vEynkuzhal Osaiyum vidaimaNik kuralum,
Ittiya isaithisai paranthana vayaluL
irunthina surumpinam ilankaiyar kulaththai,
vaattiya varisilai vaanavar ERE!
maamuni vELviyaik kaaththu,ava piratham
aattiya aduthiRal ayOththiyem marasE!
arankaththam maa!paLLi yezhuntharuLaayE."
It would be interesting to see how many people in this
net who are arguing for Tamil archanai on the basis of
Tamil being understandable would be able understand
the above verse!! Further, how many temple goers
in Tamil Nadu will underestand, or worse, care to
understand the verse. For most of them it is a business
transaction that goes something like, let me pass my
exam and I will perform an Archanai. Of course, most
of those who argue for Sanskrit archanai do not understand
Sanskrit verses either. Thus, this is a battle between
tweedle-dee and tweedle-dumb.
BTW, note the devotion in the Tamil verse towards the
"Sanskritized" Lord that DMK and DMK sympathizers
love to deride.
On another matter, please realize that almost all temples
in TN are controlled and managed by non-brahmins. The
brahmin priests are told when and where the sponsered poojas
must takes place and the brahmins follow these instructions.
It is not accurate to claim that the brahmins are stopping
the "Tamil loving" population from expressing their devotion
via Tamil. It is just not so. As someone given to "flowery"
language claimed elsewhere, the Tamil population do not
simply care. They will understand the Tamil verses just
as much, or just as little, as Sanskrit verses. The only
reason DMK is meddling with this is because they are
incapable or unwilling to take actions that will have a
real and significant impact upon the lives of truly oppressed.
It is a farse to claim that the DMK is looking out for
the interests of the Tamils. How many of the overlords
of the southern districts who caused untold misery to
the dalits did the DMK government bring to books.
Do you know that one of the Panchayat Presidents
who was a Dalit was literally cut down, his hands and
legs chopped off by these upper-caste overlords this
past summer. This happened in 1997, and the constitution
of India gives enough powers to deal with this and yet DMK
has done precious little to bring justice to these exploited
people. Way to go Sri Karunanidhi, you ARE protecting
the Tamils from their oppressors by introducing Tamil
archanai which is almost no different from Sanskrit archanai. :-(.
-- Dileepan
Raghu Seshadri
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi (kkri...@nortel.ca) wrote:
: Now it is time for correction and not revenge
The rest of your hate-filled post contradicts
this nice sentiment above. So I suppose by
correction, you mean something like the
way the communists use this word - they send
their enemies to "correction" prisons where
they are programmed to think the "correct"
way.
May I know just how much correction you
want ? Will you be satisfied if all Brahmin
children are blown up with dynamite ?
I can suggest some web pages set up by
hategroups like the Nazis who can help you
get dynamite quite easily.
RS
Gopala Ganesh
Hi!
I do not remember seeing the exact wording of the TN government order.
Can someone post that, if available? Thanks. - ganesh