ADAMI transliteration scheme (REPOST)
Sundara Pandian
The original article explaining ADAMI transliteration
scheme was posted by Sri Ravi Sinnarajahji. This is a
repost for the net junta.
-=SP=-
-------------------- repost material -------------------
From: ra...@socrates.umd.edu (Ravi Sinnarajah)
Subject: ADAMI Transliteration Scheme
vaNakkam!
anparkaL palarinathu 'vEnduthalkaL'/paNippukkaLai aduththu
keezhey, "aathami urumaatRu muRaiyinai" ikkuzhuvitku
chamarpikkinREn.
makizhka!
inOru thamizh irasikan,
iravi.
"paadaiyilE padutthu oorai valam varum pOthum
oN thamizhEy chala chalaththu Odal vENdum"
------------------------- [aathami urumaatRu muRai] ----------------
Transliteration Methodology
Prepare a text in standard ASCII code, as it would be pronounced
in English. The program has built in intelligence to choose the
right Tamil word in most cases. The letters b, ch, d, dh, g, h, j,
k, l, m, n, p, r, s, sh, t, th, v, x(ksha), y are pronounced as in
English. The vowels and certain alphabets should follow the phonetic
convention shown below. Note that with certain alphabets the upper
case and lower case letters have different phonetics.
letter=words(for/as in 'phonetic' pronunciationi in Tamil):
----------------------------------------------------------
a=ammah aa=aadu i=ilai ee=ee(fly)
u=ural oo=oosi e=ilai E=ENi(ladder)
ai=ainthu o=onRu(one) O=Olai ow/au=Auvaiyaar
" . "
q= . . ('ahkeanam')
- - - - - -
k/g=viLakku n/NG=chinkam ch=poochi n/NY=panchu(cotton)
^ ^^ ^^
t/d=chatti n/N=kaN(eye) th/dh=kaththi n/nN=panthu(ball)
^ ^ ^^
p/b=kappal m=paampu y/Y=naay(dog) r=thEr ('temple car')
^ ^ ^ R=netRi (forehead)
^
l=palli L=vaaL(sword) zh=yaazh('lyre') v=auvvai
^ ^
h=??? sh=pushpam S=parasparam x/ksh=lakshmi
^^ ^ ^^^
>>>>>>
Letter Pronounciation (in English)
------ ---------------------------
a Madhurai aa all i pin
^ ^ ^
ee peek u Madhurai oo boot
^^ ^ ^^
e pen E pane ai Madurai
^ ^ ^^
o one O tone ow,au cow
^ ^ ^^
zh Thamizh r rank t tank
^^ ^ ^
th thank
^^
>>>>>>
Phonological Considerations
Certain English consonent combinations are converted to Tamil phonology.
For example:
- 'vetri' becomes vetri for victory)
and *not* vet"ri" ("ri" as in "Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Da Ni Sa");
^^ ^^ ^^
- 'meengaL' becomes meengaL (as in "neegal (plural for "you" in Tamil)
and *not* meeNngaL (asi n "fish");
just as 'neengaL' becomes neengaL (as in "You (Tamil);
- So to get "meengal (as in "Fish(Tamil)) you should force the "na" by
using 'meeNngal' instead of 'meengaL'.
>>>>>>
Further Help/Info:
Look at the userguid.txt and other "*.txt" files to
familiarize with the convention. Since there may be some minor
variations among the various Tamil dialects and English pronunciations,
the following example sets the guidelines used for transliteration in
the software.
>>>>>>
Extracted from: USERGUID.TXT
Thanks/ACKnowledgement to: ADAMI [Ver. 9.0]
(By Thiru. K. Srinivasan)
>>>>>>
------------------------ [mudipu] --------------------------------------
Samuel Ponraj
Yetho Namaste enrar. Summa irunthen. Ippothu Juntha engirar.
Parthu.. Makkall vizhiththu kollumun niruthividum
anbudan :-)
sam
Sundara Pandian
Comments Ponraj Sam (spo...@ic.sunysb.edu) on SP's posting:
Namaste!
>Ayya Nanbar sundara pandianar SCT'il Hindiyai thinnikkiraar.
achaa..
>Yetho Namaste enrar. Summa irunthen. Ippothu Juntha engirar.
kyaa baath hai?
>Parthu.. Makkall vizhiththu kollumun niruthividum
maaf keejiyE!
>anbudan :-)
>sam
Dhanyavaad,
-=SP=-
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
> -=SP=-
Well, it appears SP is in a mood of his own.:-) He sent me two
e-mails one in response to a reply I sent him and in both he
ended his e-mail with Dhanyavad. When I saw that a second time
I merely underlined that word and added two smileys " :-) :-) "
I fully understand that anyone can write what they want [ even M. Gandhi
apparently wrote in Hindi to C.Rajagopalachri until CR refused to
reply ] SP might be displaying his freedom but not his etiquette.
[ I won't be surprised if SP comes back with his tantrums
"I write what I like, it is upto the nettors to decide, take it or
leave it..bla. bla " :-) Let us give SP some freedom to throw his
hands and legs to display his tantrums freely shouting 'may hun !
dhanyavad, achcha, bachcha ...'
[ no, no, he will come back and say 'geez, I don't need any
freedom granted by some tamil scholar and his friends' :-) :-)
'I will shout more in hindi on my own ' :-) :-)]
< Serious mode on>
I feel such insensitivity often leads to needless bickerings.
Or may be SP is attempting some flame-attract tactics, as some
experiment ( may be ?) ...
In any case, it is not a commendable or healthy behaviour
in my opinion [ this refers to his two e-mails to me about his
reply to Sam Ponraj ].
SP'kku viraivil kuNam aagum enRa nabikkaiyudn :-)
-Selvaa
Sundara Pandian
> < Serious mode on>
> I feel such insensitivity often leads to needless bickerings.
> Or may be SP is attempting some flame-attract tactics, as some
> experiment ( may be ?) ...
> In any case, it is not a commendable or healthy behaviour
> in my opinion [ this refers to his two e-mails to me about his
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> reply to Sam Ponraj ].
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
May be, you did not phrase it well. I did not send you the
two mails about "my reply to Sam Ponraj". You may recall that
those mails were about the souvenir.
My reply to Sam Ponraj was supposed to be a joke. I don't
know how Sam Ponraj or other nettors took it. I don't use such
excessive Hindi in my regular articles. I don't sign as `dhanyavaad'
in my net articles usually. It would be mostly `Namaste' that most
nettors can understand in my opinion. Sam commented on the word
`junta' I used in the ADAMI article. I think nettors can also
understand this word.
About your comment that I signed with `Dhanyavaad' in my mails
to you, sometimes I use that signature also when I send mails to
some friends.
> SP'kku viraivil kuNam aagum enRa nabikkaiyudn :-)
Namaste,
-=SP=-
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>Comments Selvakumar (selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca) on SP:
>
>> < Serious mode on>
>
>> I feel such insensitivity often leads to needless bickerings.
>> Or may be SP is attempting some flame-attract tactics, as some
>> experiment ( may be ?) ...
>> In any case, it is not a commendable or healthy behaviour
>> in my opinion [ this refers to his two e-mails to me about his
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> reply to Sam Ponraj ].
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> May be, you did not phrase it well. I did not send you the
> two mails about "my reply to Sam Ponraj". You may recall that
> those mails were about the souvenir.
You're right, I seemed to have missed an 'and'
conjunction after 'to me' and before 'about.
>
> My reply to Sam Ponraj was supposed to be a joke. I don't
> know how Sam Ponraj or other nettors took it. I don't use such
> excessive Hindi in my regular articles. I don't sign as `dhanyavaad'
> in my net articles usually. It would be mostly `Namaste' that most
> nettors can understand in my opinion. Sam commented on the word
> `junta' I used in the ADAMI article. I think nettors can also
> understand this word.
I too took this reply to Sam Ponraj as a joke.
But I was not sure of the intentions in your personal
e-mail to me; first time I thought you were playful,
and the second time too I took it as playful and
I was amused.
>
> About your comment that I signed with `Dhanyavaad' in my mails
> to you, sometimes I use that signature also when I send mails to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> some friends.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The 'thank you' at the end of a letter is not some
'personal logo', as far as I know. If you care for me
as a reader of your personal mail to me, especially as a
friend, i would like to see tamil ( if not then english).
I in fact know a little hindi and really like many old
hindi songs and I truly like hindi, but what I can not
appreciate is the insensitive hindi-thiNippu everywhere.
Of course, you've freedom to do what you like..
>
>> SP'kku viraivil kuNam aagum enRa nabikkaiyudn :-)
>
> Namaste,
> -=SP=-
>
While we are on this topic, i might also raise a few
general questions. Why is that some people are intent
on using Namaste when there is a well known tamil word
vaNakkam. Do people in the north reciprocate such
gestures ? I won't mind people ocassionally or often enough
using Namaste if such is the practice in the north too
( vaNakkam and namaste are equally acceptable in the north).
Also, I wish to know whether a villager in say UP or maharashtra
says 'namaste' ( I know, he might understand, but does he himself
use this word - probably yes ? namaste appears punditish)
In Carnatic Music concerts we happily listen to Meera Bajan as
a thukkada, do we see this reciprocated in north , can they
sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
There is, as I see, too much of one-way 'paNpaattuth thiNippu'
which actually robs opportunities for the growth of native
'paNpaadu'. I'm not speaking of any exclusivism, but only
expressing concern at the extent and the one-wayness of these
cultural domination which i would not even mind if native
culture is not seriously affected.
anbudan
-Selvaa
M. Sundaramoorthy
> While we are on this topic, i might also raise a few
> general questions. Why is that some people are intent
> on using Namaste when there is a well known tamil word
> vaNakkam. Do people in the north reciprocate such
> gestures ? I won't mind people ocassionally or often enough
> using Namaste if such is the practice in the north too
> ( vaNakkam and namaste are equally acceptable in the north).
>
> Also, I wish to know whether a villager in say UP or maharashtra
> says 'namaste' ( I know, he might understand, but does he himself
> use this word - probably yes ? namaste appears punditish)
>
> In Carnatic Music concerts we happily listen to Meera Bajan as
> a thukkada, do we see this reciprocated in north , can they
> sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
> There is, as I see, too much of one-way 'paNpaattuth thiNippu'
> which actually robs opportunities for the growth of native
> 'paNpaadu'. I'm not speaking of any exclusivism, but only
> expressing concern at the extent and the one-wayness of these
> cultural domination which i would not even mind if native
> culture is not seriously affected.
>
I more or less share these concerns.
Such people think they have 'parandha manappaanmai'. But actually it
is 'adimai manappaanmai'. athuvum iraNdaam thara adimai manappaanmai.
aduththavan kEtkavillaiyaanaalum, thaanagavE adimaiyaaga virumbuvadhu.
> anbudan
> -Selvaa
>
M. Sundaramoorthy
sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
Sundara Pandian
Replies Selva (selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca) to SP:
[...]
> I too took this reply to Sam Ponraj as a joke.
> But I was not sure of the intentions in your personal
> e-mail to me; first time I thought you were playful,
> and the second time too I took it as playful and
> I was amused.
I was, in fact, playful. In the early mails that I sent to FFT,
Vidyashankar, Shyamala etc. I signed with a thanking note `Dhanyavaad',
and I signed `Dhanyavaad' with a smile on my face in the mails
I sent to you and ADAMI Sree.
[...]
> The 'thank you' at the end of a letter is not some
> 'personal logo', as far as I know. If you care for me
> as a reader of your personal mail to me, especially as a
> friend, i would like to see tamil ( if not then english).
> I in fact know a little hindi and really like many old
> hindi songs and I truly like hindi, but what I can not
> appreciate is the insensitive hindi-thiNippu everywhere.
> Of course, you've freedom to do what you like..
I will sign in Tamil in the future mails to you and in reply to your
articles just as you have suggested. Frankly, I did not intend it as
"insensitive Hindi-thiNippu". I am against that, whether it is Hindi
or any language. An example for "insensitive Hindi-thinippu" is the
AIR commentary broadcast in South India. For the cricket matches
played outside Tamilnadu, the commentary we can hear has 50% English
and 50% Hindi. That is, the commentary switches to English and Hindi
alternatively. One is forced to listen to Hindi in this way. This is
an instance for a forced imposition of Hindi and I am against such
impositions.
> While we are on this topic, i might also raise a few
> general questions. Why is that some people are intent
> on using Namaste when there is a well known tamil word
> vaNakkam. Do people in the north reciprocate such
> gestures ? I won't mind people ocassionally or often enough
> using Namaste if such is the practice in the north too
> ( vaNakkam and namaste are equally acceptable in the north).
As someone using the word `Namaste' lately often in the net, I will
comment on this. I like the word `vaNakkam' also. When I talk with thers,
or when I am in a conversation, it suffices for me if others can follow
what I say. `Namaste' is not a common word in Tamil, I agree, but most
nettors know what it means. I don't mind using it in the net.
But there are many Sanskrit words that are in common usage in Tamil
(that Tamil public can understand.); but some Tamil scholars, Tamil
teachers, and also some of my friends disapprove them or oppose using
such Sanskrit words in Tamil. Sankarapandi once wrote in the net
that one of his articles was criticized for his usage of some Sanskrit
words in common usage in Tamil. I differ in opinions from such Tamil
scholars. Some Tamil scholars, I know, write `Russia' as `uruchiyaa'
in Tamil as they think that writing it in Tamil as `rashyaa' has a
Sanskrit pronunciation. I find it ridiculous to give a frank opinion.
I guess that I am not a Tamil purist. :-)
> Also, I wish to know whether a villager in say UP or maharashtra
> says 'namaste' ( I know, he might understand, but does he himself
> use this word - probably yes ? namaste appears punditish)
`Namaste' is a pretty common word, but I let FFT or other Hindi-speaking
nettors comment on that. It is not an elite usage in my opinion.
> In Carnatic Music concerts we happily listen to Meera Bajan as
> a thukkada, do we see this reciprocated in north , can they
> sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
How many Tamils sing `thEvaaram' and `aazhvaar paasurams' anyway?
I do know that there are some classes on `thiruppaavai' and `thiuvembaavai'
run in some Hindu temples. (There are free classes in our Madurai Meenakshi
Amman temple, in fact.) However, they are not popular in my opinion. As
I have noted earlier, even in the Carnatic concerts in Tamilnadu, there
are only a few Tamil keerthanais performed. (This is a general opinion.)
Before that we point fingers on other regions, I think that a self-evaluation
is in order.
> There is, as I see, too much of one-way 'paNpaattuth thiNippu'
> which actually robs opportunities for the growth of native
> 'paNpaadu'.
I agree that the native `paNpaadu' needs promotion. Sundaramoorthy has
written some articles on `therukkUtthu's. There are some other folk arts
like `karagaattam' etc. These folk arts need promotion. Rather than just
talking about the ancient glory of the drama stages in Cilappathikaaram
or proudly proclaiming that the first drama in India was written by the
Tamil poet IlangOvadikaL and living in the ancient glory days, I think that
positive steps to promote the dying folk arts that badly need support and
appreciation are the needed ones now. If we don't promote these folk arts,
they will become ancient also with time and we can only leave them to
Tamil scholars of the future generations to boast.
> anbudan
> -Selvaa
paNbudan
-PaaNdian
Srikant Sridevan
In article <CBK91...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>,
>maharashtra
> says 'namaste' ( I know, he might understand, but does he
>himself
> use this word - probably yes ? namaste appears punditish)
>
They would probably say "Ram Ram" or "Jai ram Ji Ki". I think this is
the case though I wouldn't bet my life on it.
> In Carnatic Music concerts we happily listen to Meera Bajan as
> a thukkada, do we see this reciprocated in north , can they
> sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
How does that matter? Meera Bhajan does not in itself cause harm to
anyone. It is devotional and gives peace of mind to the listeners (I'm
assuming this, I'm irreligious myself). If the Northerners do not get
the chance to listen to thevaram, IT IS THEIR LOSS. As I see it, noone
is being forced to sing Meera Bhajan and noone is forcing you to listen
to it. Where is the thiNippu here?
> There is, as I see, too much of one-way 'paNpaattuth thiNippu'
> which actually robs opportunities for the growth of native
> 'paNpaadu'. I'm not speaking of any exclusivism, but only
> expressing concern at the extent and the one-wayness of these
> cultural domination which i would not even mind if native
> culture is not seriously affected.
>
I wish people would stop seeing thiNippu where none exists. One of the
advantages of being non-Hindi speaking as we are is to have the
advantage of enjoying *two* cultures. Hindi speakers cannot enjoy the
dialogue delivery of P.S. Veerappa, the unintentional buffoonery of
T. Rajendar (fans not to offended) plus many other more important aspects
which you are better placed to name.
While there is no doubt that we should take pride in what is ours and
try to spread it far and wide so that others may also enjoy it, we must
also learn to enjoy the plus points of other cultures. Of course we must
also take steps to safeguard what is ours if it is being destroyed, but
I don't see that happening as a result of some singing Meera Bhajans.
Srikant
--
---
Queen of Light took her bow
And then she turned to go,
The Prince of Peace embraced the gloom
And walked the night alone.
e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
K.V.N.Gopal
>Replies Selva (selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca) to SP:
>
>> general questions. Why is that some people are intent
>> on using Namaste when there is a well known tamil word
>> vaNakkam. Do people in the north reciprocate such
>> gestures ? I won't mind people ocassionally or often enough
>> using Namaste if such is the practice in the north too
>> ( vaNakkam and namaste are equally acceptable in the north).
>
>
> nettors comment on that. It is not an elite usage in my opinion.
In the north especially in UP or Bihar I think 'Namaste' is used along
with 'Ram Ram' or 'Jai Ram ji ki' the first being more formal and conveying
respect(used a lot with strangers or when speaking with person who is assumed
to be a equal or superior) whereas the other two being used more in the sense
of a 'hello' as we pass by someone we know.
In Andhra it is 'Namaskaram'. The meaning of the word itself is philosophical
and is derived from the roots Namah+te
Namaskaram = Namah+karam
Gopal
Sai
This post grew rather long. I regret any inconvenience.
Stuff Deleted
> While we are on this topic, i might also raise a few
> general questions. Why is that some people are intent
> on using Namaste when there is a well known tamil word
> vaNakkam. Do people in the north reciprocate such
> gestures ? I won't mind people ocassionally or often enough
> using Namaste if such is the practice in the north too
> ( vaNakkam and namaste are equally acceptable in the north).
In my few years stay in North, at least one of my colleagues liked
vanakkam very much. He always used to greet me with that. (I taught
him this word by using it once when he said namaste). If you
are liked by many, then you can see people trying to use greetings in
your mother tongue. (as far my experience goes).
>
> Also, I wish to know whether a villager in say UP or maharashtra
> says 'namaste' ( I know, he might understand, but does he himself
> use this word - probably yes ? namaste appears punditish)
Some villagers in Bihar, say 'ram ram' for vanakkam!
>
> In Carnatic Music concerts we happily listen to Meera Bajan as
> a thukkada, do we see this reciprocated in north , can they
> sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
In such concerts if the singer sings, I some how *feel* that many may not
object. I say this based on some opinions expressed to me when I was
attending some concerts by pandit jasraj and joshi. I have seen entirely
different population in such concerts. More experienced persons may
comment on my feelings.
> There is, as I see, too much of one-way 'paNpaattuth thiNippu'
> which actually robs opportunities for the growth of native
> 'paNpaadu'. I'm not speaking of any exclusivism, but only
> expressing concern at the extent and the one-wayness of these
> cultural domination which i would not even mind if native
> culture is not seriously affected.
I always had this view: cultural exchange is a give and take policy.
We took others' culture (there are two ways of taking: one when someone
gives ; other on our own, the later being more appreciable). Now
did we make enough efforts to give ours? In my opinion the answer is
'may be no'. On seeing the effects of Hindi imposition in Tamil Nadu (en oor!),
I learnt a lesson and it worked in practice. My efforts were limited
only to my very close friends. Lesson: "Express your respect for their
culture and use *every* opportunity to let them know yours. If they
behave according to their culture, acknowledge that and often behave
according to yours". For example, my vanakkam colleague. On returning
his namaste with a vanakkam, I added that as he gets pleasure in
greeting me with namaste, I get pleasure in greeting him with vanakkam.
He found that very nice. On another situation, when our typist gave me
a form to fill I found that it had only Hindi instructions. I gave back
and asked her to get me another one. She gave me a big lecture for
5 minutes in front of all (many people are wary of our typist!). Main
accusation is Tamils refuse to learn Hindi! I had a simple answer.
"Madame (I omit the name!), I feel like learning Hindi, when our
messenger (I actually used his name here), tries to speak with me
in broken English and feel like not learning when I am imposed!
I find his efforts are more respectful than your warnings".
She had no answer. It did not take longer for her to ask me to
teach certain words in Tamil. (she will say thamil!).
There are several occassions where I see people are willing to know
our culture. When I presented pictures of our temples, all (but one)
of my American colleagues and supervisors were astonished. They all
thought in India there is nothing worthwhile. I realized this
earlier and on my trip back home decided to buy some stuff. (I
bought these pictures from Higginbothams in Madras!). They loved
what they saw. Ofcourse I am not bragging about India, here.
My main point is we can definitely, try to give our culture to
others. It is a delicate job though.
I wish to repeat that, these were my experience and for sure there
could be different experience. It would be interesting to know if
someone else too had similar experience. I wish mine is just
not a lucky one.
> anbudan
> -Selvaa
Sai.
--
__________________________________________________________
Scientists Often Fail but
Science Never Fails
__________________________________________________________
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>> a thukkada, do we see this reciprocated in north , can they
>> sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
>I always had this view: cultural exchange is a give and take policy.
>We took others' culture (there are two ways of taking: one when someone
>gives ; other on our own, the later being more appreciable). Now
>did we make enough efforts to give ours? In my opinion the answer is
>'may be no'. On seeing the effects of Hindi imposition in Tamil Nadu (en oor!),
>I learnt a lesson and it worked in practice. My efforts were limited
>only to my very close friends. Lesson: "Express your respect for their
>> anbudan
>> -Selvaa
You are right about reciprocity. Let
the NI learn one SI language and we all learn a NI language.
That will build national integration out of mutual
self-respect and not imposition.
anban
kathir
M. Sundaramoorthy
>In article <CBK91...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
The cultural exchanges can happen at different levels:
(1). Individual level: Sai teaching his friend 'vaNakkam'. His friend
greeting him with 'vaNakkam' and he greeting his friend with 'namastE'.
There is no problem here.
Selva's point is, a Tamil wishing another Tamil with 'namastE'
is considered as our 'broadmindeness'. Does such a practice as a non-
Tamil greeting another non-Tamil with vaNakkam exist north?.
(2). Exchanges at larger level: When a big population migrates
from one culture to another culture. This can happen at many different
levels. (a). Migrating culture dominating over the local one and
destroying it. e.g. North American culture. (b). Intermixing
of native and migrating cultures resulting in a new culture. e.g.
Latin American. (c). Migrating cultures adopting the local culture,
but influencing the local culture to little extent. e.g. The Telugu,
Sourashtrian, Marathi migrants in Tamil Nadu.
(3). State sponsored cultural imposition: The culture of the politcally
dominant one imposed on the politically weaker ones. eg. The one Central
government's three language policy.
While the first one is not going to have any large influence in
cultural exchanges at all, the third one is serious. Some of us may
be very broad minded to accept it with naive reasons: if we accept
theirs they will also accept ours, we can enjoy both cultures and
they are the losers etc.
Just a hypothetical question here: What will be the reaction in the
north if the center promulgates an ordinace making a south Indian
language as the third language in north, broadcastes news, movies,
songs, cricket commentary etc. in a regular basis in that language?.
I will continue after getting an answer for this.
>
>> anbudan
>> -Selvaa
>
>Sai.
>--
M. Sundaramoorthy
sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>In article <CBK91...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>,
>selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
>writes:
>> sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
>
>How does that matter? Meera Bhajan does not in itself cause harm to
It matters. Because of this tendency we have lost, in my opinion, the
great tradition of paaNars, viRaliyars... Several musical traditions
have become endangered-traditions such as thEvaram singing,
aazhvaar paasuram singings ( some of this today survives better in
Sri Lankan Tamil traditions), directly as result of this kind of
tendency. I have nothing against Meera Bajan, I felt in its place
if they sing beautiful aazhvaar pasurams, it would be very nice, imo.
[ in fact one of my favorite movies is bakta meera where MS appears]
>anyone. It is devotional and gives peace of mind to the listeners (I'm
>assuming this, I'm irreligious myself). If the Northerners do not get
>the chance to listen to thevaram, IT IS THEIR LOSS. As I see it, noone
Well, this is often the arguement extended. Let us not worry about
their loss ( if we want to worry about them we will recommend
good thEvaarams and aazhavaar paasurams for them), I'm saying
the LOSS IS OURS in not singing philosophically very rich tamil
devotional songs..it is my feeling that by singing soulful tamil
songs more people will be attracted and a larger cross section of
people will be able to appreciate and enjoy... more iLayarajas will
spring up..
Further by singing tamil songs the appreciation
and understanding of tamil will be richer which we now lose ( for
educational purposes).....
In the field of music the damage done to tamil and tamil traditions
is extremely serious ( honestly) and I think you're probably not fully
understanding.. Carnatic music essentially grew in tamil nadu
but there is tamil songs only as eye-wash..( or ear-wash :-) )
>the chance to listen to thevaram, IT IS THEIR LOSS. As I see it, noone
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is being forced to sing Meera Bhajan and noone is forcing you to listen
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to it. Where is the thiNippu here?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well the time in TV, Radio etc.
The opportunities lost in listening to tamil songs ..
None is forcing to listen or sing is true.. but should one
voice his/her concern only when one is forced to do..
>
>> There is, as I see, too much of one-way 'paNpaattuth thiNippu'
>> which actually robs opportunities for the growth of native
>> 'paNpaadu'. I'm not speaking of any exclusivism, but only
>> expressing concern at the extent and the one-wayness of these
>> cultural domination which i would not even mind if native
>> culture is not seriously affected.
>>
>
>I wish people would stop seeing thiNippu where none exists. One of the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wish people understand the true intent.
I also hope people will understand the the magnitude of loss..
>advantages of being non-Hindi speaking as we are is to have the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>advantage of enjoying *two* cultures. Hindi speakers cannot enjoy the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I seriously differ. We are getting one in place of another,
and thats what I'm concerned about. If there is a majority of
songs in Tamil and a few non-tamil songs are also sung,
I would very much
welcome.. you say hindi speakers can not enjoy bla bla..so too
tamils ( except a few like you who might know both hindi and tamil..)
Not only in the field of music, there is hindi thiNippu everywhere..
>dialogue delivery of P.S. Veerappa, the unintentional buffoonery of
>T. Rajendar (fans not to offended) plus many other more important aspects
>which you are better placed to name.
>
>While there is no doubt that we should take pride in what is ours and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No point in taking pride, if we can not sustain..
iRavaatha pugazh vERu, iRandhavaRRaik koNdu pugazh pEsuvathu vERu.
[ muththamizh enbathu iRandhu pOnathu; paaNar, viRaliyar
azhindhu pOna marabu..]
>try to spread it far and wide so that others may also enjoy it, we must
>also learn to enjoy the plus points of other cultures. Of course we must
>also take steps to safeguard what is ours if it is being destroyed, but
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, thats my point. While we wish to benefit from other
cultures, we should not lose opportunities to enrich our
culture..
>I don't see that happening as a result of some singing Meera Bhajans.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sure such tendencies and associated politics do cause
extensive damages....may be you've to see better..or at
another angle....
>Srikant
>e-mail : s...@apollo.psrc.ncsu.edu
anbudan
-Selva
Sai
>In <1993Aug11....@usl.edu> spo...@ucs.usl.edu (Sai) writes:
>>> a thukkada, do we see this reciprocated in north , can they
>>> sing thEvaram, aazhvaar paasurams ?
>
>>I always had this view: cultural exchange is a give and take policy.
>>We took others' culture (there are two ways of taking: one when someone
>>gives ; other on our own, the later being more appreciable). Now
>>did we make enough efforts to give ours? In my opinion the answer is
>>'may be no'. On seeing the effects of Hindi imposition in Tamil Nadu (en oor!),
>>I learnt a lesson and it worked in practice. My efforts were limited
>>only to my very close friends. Lesson: "Express your respect for their
>
>>> anbudan
>>> -Selvaa
>
>
> You are right about reciprocity. Let
>the NI learn one SI language and we all learn a NI language.
Anban Kathir, I wish to stress that in others learning our culture (more
general than a language) we should take a leading role. This, I feel
necessary as we have to start from a underdogs position.
>That will build national integration out of mutual
>self-respect and not imposition.
Well said, I would say.
Sai
>In article <1993Aug11....@usl.edu> spo...@ucs.usl.edu (Sai) writes:
>
> The cultural exchanges can happen at different levels:
>
> (1). Individual level: Sai teaching his friend 'vaNakkam'. His friend
> greeting him with 'vaNakkam' and he greeting his friend with 'namastE'.
> There is no problem here.
>
> Selva's point is, a Tamil wishing another Tamil with 'namastE'
> is considered as our 'broadmindeness'. Does such a practice as a non-
> Tamil greeting another non-Tamil with vaNakkam exist north?.
I think, exposure to namaste is more than exposure to vanakkam. I don't
want to rule out the possibility that my friend may use vanakkam to
someone not necessarily from Tamil Nadu. This certainly depends on
how much the word attracted him (likewise some of our culture ) ,
or how commonly that word appears.
Stuff Deleted
>
> Just a hypothetical question here: What will be the reaction in the
> north if the center promulgates an ordinace making a south Indian
> language as the third language in north, broadcastes news, movies,
> songs, cricket commentary etc. in a regular basis in that language?.
I think they would react strongly as we (Tamils) reacted. I know that
quite a good number of my North Indian friends used to think that a
South Indian can *never* become PM. (though I don't know what they
think now). When they can't tolerate a SI for PM, I am doubtful if
they won't react strongly.
>
> I will continue after getting an answer for this.
Hope to have a healthy discussion with you.
>
> M. Sundaramoorthy
> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
Sai
Vijay Fafat
> Or may be SP is attempting some flame-attract tactics, as some
> experiment ( may be ?) ...
maybe he's not satisfied with the small size of his kill file?
S. Sankarapandi
Wanted to be in read-only mode for sometime, but N..O..T.. always !
(Venkat and SunM are my Gurus :-))
I have several things to say in this thread. I agree with Selva, SundM and
Damu completely and also largely with few others. I am reminded of an
interesting incident during my stay in Madras which will probably explain many
things which I want to say.
In article <2C694CD...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M
. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
>In article <1993Aug11....@usl.edu> spo...@ucs.usl.edu (Sai) writes:
>>In article <CBK91...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
(C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
>
> The cultural exchanges can happen at different levels:
>
> (1). Individual level: Sai teaching his friend 'vaNakkam'. His friend
> greeting him with 'vaNakkam' and he greeting his friend with 'namastE'.
> There is no problem here.
>
> Selva's point is, a Tamil wishing another Tamil with 'namastE'
> is considered as our 'broadmindeness'. Does such a practice as a non-
> Tamil greeting another non-Tamil with vaNakkam exist north?.
>
Now, I would ask another question.. Will a Tamil in Madras feel free to greet
another Tamil ? Why I am saying this ? Though I have not stayed in the north
for a long time, I have visited or stayed for a month in Delhi, Pune etc. I
never had seen people embarassed using Hindi in their day-to-day life. But I
have met enough Tamils in Madras feeling embarassed to speak or greet in Tamil.
(Sometimes, many others like me were also forced to speak in English to get
some jobs done quickly at Railway station or Post Offic). At New Delhi Railway
station, the station master kept on answering my questions in Hindi even I have
requested him with my inability to understand Hindi (that was a few minutes
before I catch the Tamil Nadu Express). Even then, I dont mistake him because
I should have learnt some Hindi before visiting Hindi-speaking areas, though I
would expect him to be more courteous if he had actually known enough English.
For the first time, State Bank of India brought out Demand-Draft application
forms in Tamil. I and my friend Jeyakumar went to a State Bank branch in
Madras and wanted to get a draft for him. Seeing the Tamil forms, we were
quite enthusiastic and my friend filled out the form in Tamil. When he
presented it to the clerk, we were shocked because he refused to accept it. He
told my friend to fill in English (the clerk was also a tamil, in case anybody
cares about it). My friend said that the form containe Tamil alongwith English
and Hindi and hence he preferred to write in tamil. Then the clerk told that
that was meant only for those people who do not know English. When my friend
immediately answered that he did not English, that man went on complaining
that my friend looked like an educated person knowing English but wanted to
create problems with him. We asked him to complain to the manager about it and
we were ready to meet the manager. The manager was very diplomatic (to save
his staff as well as the bank customer) and asked the clerk to accept the
application and then explained us that some of the clerical staff are
non-Tamils and they may find problematic. The manager was also a Tamil. So
whether in Delhi or Madras, only the Tamils are requested by fellow Tamils to
adjust with these things and save the system.
I repeat the same question what Selva and SunM raised. It is people like us
who are responsible for the discontinuance of Tamil application forms for Money
Order or Bank Draft etc which would otherwise benefit many people like my own
parents who know Tamil but do not know any bit of English. We think that if we
persist on using Tamil, we will be branded as fanatic or anti-national. This
kind of guilt feeling is there among most Tamils because Tamil political
parties made the language issue for empty political rhetorics rather than as a
`Rights' issue. Tamils are actually in a position of weakness because of this
guilty feeling whereas a Telugu or Malayalam or Kannada friend may not feel
that much to talk his own mother tongue.
I dont really care, if it does mot cause much impact on our lifestyle but it
DOES affect the lifestyle of common men in Tamil Nadu who certainly prefer
Tamil to English or Hindi. Obviously I dont really care whether my culture is
spread in other areas or whether others appreciate our culture or we appreciate
others culture in our own land (watch, I am not saying anything for or
against). But I care, when our culture or language is treated as inferior in
our own land and our common people have to sacrifice their rights. Similarly I
care about other's language or culture when I go to their land for permanent
living. Rest of the things like appreciation etc come from one's personal
tastes and it should be definitely delinked from the society's needs.
One more thing, I want to point out here is the mindset of our people
(including me). From our experience and surrounding, we always think that a
person who is wearing neat dresses should be educated and should be knowing
English (and it subtly implies that he should only use English, as our Bank
clerk expected from us). Even after this incident, I did not get rid of this
mindset myself. When I visited Japan last summer, at Tokyo railway station, I
was looking for signs to go to Narita Express. Though there were a few English
signs, the arrows were slightly misleading. I was desperately looking for
someone who could tell me in English. Whenever I see some person who was
wearing a full suit, I was slightly happy as if I found a person to speak in
English. When I go to him and ask him, I was disappointed because he did not
know any English. That definitely showed my `mindset'.
As the educated intelligentia of our society, we should evaluate our knowledge,
thinking and action which alienate us from our soceity and how we have been
encouraging a feeling among the common people that their culture or language is
inferior. This is exactly a reason why there is so much of craze for the
English medium schools even in remote villages of Tamil Nadu.
Our ego always gives us a heavy-headed feeling if we see people who are not as
educated as we are. In fact, I have seen many people who do not listen to
their parents or elders whatever they say even if they are very useful
information which they derived from experience (however, it always bothers
me why they do not question the role of caste, dowry etc in marriages and yield
to whatever the parents or elders say). I digress..
All are IMO. So please ignore if you dont agree with them, I may not follow-up
any discussion.
Thanks,
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Sai
>
Stuff Deleted
>
>I used to live in New Delhi [from August 1983 to December 1984]. My personal
>experiences were different. My opinion in this matter is that in general a
>"superior feeling" persists strongly in the north. People have a hard time
>saying southern names and the enunciation makes you [in this case, myself] feel
>that the other party is having a hard time as if the name is foriegn. About
>90% of the people that I have met in the region call me Dhamodhaar inspite
One of my Bihari friends whose name is Mohan, has such complaints that in
Madras (he worked in Madras for 2 years) people called him Mogan (g for h).
That is because, we got used for Mogan more than Mohan. In north Dhamodhar
is how they call (i guess!) a god. So may be we need more persuation
in making people call proper names. What I mean is such complaints are
there in general. Like I had tough time with many North Indian names.
When I taught some CSI classes out there, with due apology I used to
use their names. (I can't even now recollect those tough names but for one.
JHA, whenever I said this name, whole class will laugh. I could never say
his name correct. What JHA, I used say means GO in Hindi, and hence
the laughter.). Well Dhamodharan, I don't justify their killing your name.
Please do not get me wrong.
Stuff Deleted
>
>Damu: I think it is either done due to naievity or weak mindedness. Any
>relationship is based on mutual give and take. I believe that our relationship
>with our brethern/sistern in the north has been one sided as far as
>linguistic/cultural thing goes. This is where I appreciate the "assertive
>politics" of Anna and the DMK. Clearly we have interests as members of a
True, we have to be assertive. I found being politely assertive pays off well.
>country/state/district/family, etc. We should not compromise on our larger
>interests just because at the domestic level we do not agree on certain issues.
Stuff Deleted
> On a serious note such a thing will not happen unless we support
>assertive leaders. Politically we are perceived as weak minded people,
>conservative and a whole host of other things. In Indian democracy such a fair
>situation can happen (IMHO of course). However at the slightest assertion by
>some well meaning leaders, we start hearing "anti-national"/"separatist", etc
I feel such oppostion would ensue now. We should be able to find a way.
After all, one SI stayed as PM for so long. I feel ( may be a hope) that
if we acted right we can make that happen. ( I am leaving many questions
here unanswered)
>
>Why is demanding fairness to maintain a relationship considered
>"anti-national"? - Beats me!
Me too!
>
Stuff Deleted
>
>2. Indian meeting a fellow Indian [particularly students] and starting to
>blast of in Hindi without bothering to ask if it is O.K. to talk in that
>language. If you say I don't follow, "you don't know the national language
>[this in Hindi too]"? I never used to understand our southern friends reaction
I have attempted to treat these kind of rude guys by replying in sutha Tamil.
Of course, I did this after my usual polite requests.
>to this "rude" behaviour. This of course used to be " if they are like that
>should we be like that too". I feel that this "superior' outward saying
>actually reflects a "weak" inner mind. Are we partners in building a fair
^^^^^^
I beg to differ here. The difficulty is people often show weakness.
But you just have to have one guy, break the ice in the group.
You can see the support others offer. Of course I don't mean
a fight or some such thing.
>nation or we are going to go out of our way to build a fair nation.
>
>3. The movies screened in India Association type meetings. I am willing to
>wait 16 years to see a tamil movie if the general agreement is that we should
>use one language every year.
This depends on majority in the meetings. I have seen the domination
of Telugu too.
>
>There is a whole host of things that I can write and this article will become
>unreadable. The point that I want to make is that " a tamil wanting to assert
>his/her equal participation in modern india is not anti-national just as a
>person with inclination towards hindi". If the anti-national card is played
>for exhbiting assertive behaviour and to ensure fairness to one's own culture
>it will lead to devastating consequences.
I agree to every sentence except the last one. Modified one: "It is
definitely not good to play the anti-national card for our assertive
behaviour towards our culture. Every one loves his/her mother."
>
>Damu
>
Sai
PostScript: Even I had tough times with many people in India. In North,
because I am from South and in Madras because I am from Erode.
Kris Balasubramanian
I liked your point about giving our culture to others.
Thanks
Balu
Sai
>
>
>Wanted to be in read-only mode for sometime, but N..O..T.. always !
>(Venkat and SunM are my Gurus :-))
>
>
>
>I repeat the same question what Selva and SunM raised. It is people like us
>who are responsible for the discontinuance of Tamil application forms for Money
>Order or Bank Draft etc which would otherwise benefit many people like my own
>parents who know Tamil but do not know any bit of English. We think that if we
>persist on using Tamil, we will be branded as fanatic or anti-national. This
>kind of guilt feeling is there among most Tamils because Tamil political
>parties made the language issue for empty political rhetorics rather than as a
>`Rights' issue. Tamils are actually in a position of weakness because of this
>guilty feeling whereas a Telugu or Malayalam or Kannada friend may not feel
>that much to talk his own mother tongue.
Though I never had this kind of feeling it sounds convincing.
>others culture in our own land (watch, I am not saying anything for or
>against). But I care, when our culture or language is treated as inferior in
>our own land and our common people have to sacrifice their rights. Similarly I
I think this is a good point. When I think of many poor villagers who
do not know any other language than Tamil, made to suffer, I feel
very bad for the education we all have received.
Stuff Deleted
>
>S. Sankarapandi
>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
V. Nagarajan
.
.
>
>One more thing, I want to point out here is the mindset of our people
>(including me). From our experience and surrounding, we always think that a
>person who is wearing neat dresses should be educated and should be knowing
>English (and it subtly implies that he should only use English, as our Bank
>clerk expected from us). Even after this incident, I did not get rid of this
>mindset myself. When I visited Japan last summer, at Tokyo railway station, I
>was looking for signs to go to Narita Express. Though there were a few English
>signs, the arrows were slightly misleading. I was desperately looking for
>someone who could tell me in English. Whenever I see some person who was
>wearing a full suit, I was slightly happy as if I found a person to speak in
>English. When I go to him and ask him, I was disappointed because he did not
>know any English. That definitely showed my `mindset'.
What mindset are you refering to here - one that universally
associates a 3-piece suit with natty dress or knowledge of english
with being educated?
- Nagarajan
Prabhu Balaraman
something like.."aapkO dHOsa chahiye dHOsa.." the net effect is that
you start wondering if a 130mm battle tank somewhere just fired 2
rounds or something..
..with malice ;)
M. Sundaramoorthy
>In article <01H1MJDYC...@tethys.ucs.umass.edu> IYE...@ucsvax.ucs.umass.edu writes:
>>
> Stuff Deleted
>>
I make only few points because of two reasons: (1) lack of time (usual
excuse :-) ) and (2) many others - Selva, Srini, Damu, Sankarapandi
and yourself - made same points that I would have made, except for
the personal experiences.
I just want to elaborate Srini's point that people should give
higher priority to neighbours' language rather than to a "common"
Indian language. It is a most practical suggestion and would lead to
better cultural exchanges. I just give few personal instances:
I thought our politicians are chavunists and denying my right
to learn Hindi when I was in college (thanks to my being a regular
reader of Thuglaq and Cho's fan). So I joined in a correspondence
course conducted at a highly subsidised fees by the Central Hindi
Diretorate of GOI (Anyway I didn't complete it) thinking that some
day I might go to North for education or job. On the other hand,
though Telugu is my mother tongue, the AP border is just 10 miles
from my village, I used to visit Chitoor and Tirupathi frequently
and many of my relatives across the border are only Telugu literates,
it never occured to me to learn Telugu to write and read.
In the same way, even when I was in M.Sc. I had a dream of joining
IISc., but I never even thought of learning few words in Kannada.
My dream did come true and learned Kannada only after moving to
Bangalore.
Similarly, my sister forced his son to go for Dakshina Bharath
Hindi Prachar Sabha classes for four years, but I was sure she
would prefer him going to Bangalore or Vishakapatnam than to
Lucknow or Patna (anyway he ended up in a Bangalore college). I
wish he spent that time something else of his own interest.
In our close knit society, people would prefer going to nearer
places, say to neighbouring states for education and livelyhood
and it is natural. I wonder how many people move to Northern cities
for white collar jobs comapared the daily wage workers moving to
Bangalore or Tirupathi or Trivandrum. Most of these labourers
are not even literate in their own mother tongue, but quickly
pick up the practical knowledge of other languages when they move
out. But few 'intellectuals' in TN would create a myth and make the
people to believe if one learns Hindi it is easy to get job in
North, as if the job oppurtunities in Bihar and UP are abundant
and the gates are wide open. Even if the Center makes it a
requierment to learn Hindi to get a job, an honest intellectual
would only oppose such imposition, not teach Hindi by himself
(e.g. "Cho udan sErndhu Hindi kaRRukkoLLungaL") I don't know
such 'intellectuals' ever care about the illiterate migrants who
move to neighbouring states as daily wage workers.
Regarding the Hindi speaking people being or not being Chavunists,
I don't have much personal experience. But it may be true that they
might expect others to know Hindi, because such myths as Hindi
is a National language, every patriotic Indian should know Hindi
etc were created and kept alive by the vested interests. The
common Hindi people are not to be blamed, but only our leaders,
including our founding fathers. Since it is political, it should
be fought politically. I would support DK/DMK on such issues, but
I may only differ in the methods and sometime oppose their double
standards (because there is no other better party which has guts
to do this).
>
>Sai
>
M. Sundaramoorthy
sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
Sai
Stuff Deleted
> is a National language, every patriotic Indian should know Hindi
> etc were created and kept alive by the vested interests. The
> common Hindi people are not to be blamed, but only our leaders,
This is what I have tried to tell many of my friends at North too, who
thought till I explained to them that *ALL* Tamils are personally
against their language and culture. I even offered to show
pictures of places where they teach Hindi (ingu hindi katru
kodukkappadum) in Erode. On seeing my seriousness they gave up their
misinformation. By the way, have many of us seen such private
teachings in Tamil Nadu?
> including our founding fathers. Since it is political, it should
> be fought politically. I would support DK/DMK on such issues, but
I personally, do not have much faith in our present political setup.
That is why, I was opting for each educated individual (may I say like us),
to take it serious and do what best we can afford. For example I
often encourage people to come out with their cultural behavior
and intrests. This gives me freedom/right to display mine. There were
occassions where this *just* failed. Well, that is life.
> I may only differ in the methods and sometime oppose their double
> standards (because there is no other better party which has guts
> to do this).
> M. Sundaramoorthy
> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
Sai
Selvaraj Ramasamy
>I agree to every sentence except the last one. Modified one: "It is
>definitely not good to play the anti-national card for our assertive
>behaviour towards our culture. Every one loves his/her mother."
I certainly agree with this. Also, One need not hate the other
person's mother to show his/her affection to his/her mother.
>Sai
>PostScript: Even I had tough times with many people in India. In North,
>because I am from South and in Madras because I am from Erode.
Yes. I have faced similar problems in the North, because, I am
from south. Even the traffic policemen on duty outside the New Delhi
Railway Station, refused to talk in English, to give us some
directions, even when we made clear that we do not understand
Hindhi. I was never able to understand this behaviour. Is it that
he did not know English ? I did not think so. His behaviour
was also rude. Policemen (in Delhi) atleast, will have some
knowledge of English-which he could have used to communicate
with us.. Or am I biased ..?
But I have not faced any problems in Madras (because I was from
ERODE..). I do not know what exactly you mean by probs. in Mds.
I stayed in a Hostel.. and there were students from various
backgrounds - from all around Tamil Nadu and from other states
too. May be that's why I did not face any probls in Madras...
anbudan
Selvaraj.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R. Selvaraj
Department of Chemical Engineering " Don't let what you cannot do
University of Louisville interfere with what you can do "
(502) 637 5210.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R. Selvaraj
Department of Chemical Engineering " Don't let what you cannot do
University of Louisville interfere with what you can do "
(502) 637 5210.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Selvaraj Ramasamy
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (S. Sankarapandi) writes:
>>I repeat the same question what Selva and SunM raised. It is people like us
>>who are responsible for the discontinuance of Tamil application forms for Money
>>Order or Bank Draft etc which would otherwise benefit many people like my own
>parents who know Tamil but do not know any bit of English. We think that if we
Another place most of the 'educated' people (incl. me !) feels
reluctant to use Tamil is in writing postal addresses on
envelopes even when in Tamil Nadu. I remember using English
to write addresses most of the time, even when writing the
letters themselves in Tamil. Why is it this way ?
In contrast, once in my postoffice in Louisville,USA, I saw
one Chinese/Korean student writing the
full address in their own language, except the country name,
which he wrote in English. I also wanted to try that - i.e.
writing the full address in Tamil and just the country name
in English.. but never had the courage to do that...
> Stuff Deleted
>>
>>S. Sankarapandi
>>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Vijay Fafat
mante :-)
Hum par kisi tarah ka koi dayitva na hone ki soochana [disclaimer ;-)] :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is aalap ka mukya uddeshya sirf a-Hindi-bhashi pathakon ko
uttejit karna hai. Kisi tarah ka koi bhi darshanik tatv nazar aaye to
thande pani se snaan karna uttam hoga :)
namaste,
-=SP=-
M. Sundaramoorthy
>In article <2C6A933...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
>
> Stuff Deleted
>
>> is a National language, every patriotic Indian should know Hindi
>> etc were created and kept alive by the vested interests. The
>> common Hindi people are not to be blamed, but only our leaders,
>
>This is what I have tried to tell many of my friends at North too, who
>thought till I explained to them that *ALL* Tamils are personally
>against their language and culture. I even offered to show
>pictures of places where they teach Hindi (ingu hindi katru
>kodukkappadum) in Erode. On seeing my seriousness they gave up their
>misinformation. By the way, have many of us seen such private
>teachings in Tamil Nadu?
If I were in your place, I would have tried to make them realise
their expectations of us learning Hindi is not justified. If you
show a picture of an Hindi institute in TN that will only increase their
expectations. Your act at the best would have shown the Hindi-opposing
TN politicians in "bad light", but made them believe the common Tamils
are servile to accept the demand to learn Hindi and do so in private
institutions. This kind of "explanations" are dangerous in my
opinion and can only strengthen their "superiority" complex.
Did they show you a picture of any institute in a remote northern
town teaching Tamil or Telugu to prove they are not chavunists and
they are for cultural exchanges?. Can you show pictures of any
such institutes to your Oriya, Bengali, Kannadiga friends teaching
their languages in Tamil Nadu?. Even when we talk about opposing the
cultural domination, we are not able to give it up ourselves. We still
have a long way to go to get rid of such attitude.
>
>> including our founding fathers. Since it is political, it should
>> be fought politically. I would support DK/DMK on such issues, but
>
>I personally, do not have much faith in our present political setup.
>That is why, I was opting for each educated individual (may I say like us),
>to take it serious and do what best we can afford. For example I
>often encourage people to come out with their cultural behavior
>and intrests. This gives me freedom/right to display mine. There were
>occassions where this *just* failed. Well, that is life.
The issue that we see in India is political. It has to be fought
politically. Individual efforts at the best can give misunderstanding
to the Hindi people, that we are ready to learn Hindi, but only
our politicians are preventing.
I wouldn't mind learning Hindi if I know for sure I will be going
to stay in north for a long period. And it will be much easier and
faster to learn after moving in Hindi speaking environment than
learning in TN schools. I personally don't believe that everyone in
the state will migrate to north and hence has to learn
Hindi for ten years in the school. For the sake of an insignificant
% of prospective migrants, a great majority need not waste their
school hours learning a language that they are never going to use
in their life. I would rather sleep an hour more everyday :-).
While the prospect of going to the neighbouring states are more
why not stress learning those languages?. How many hours can we afford
to learn only languages?.
I never found it necessary to defend myself with my Hindi friends
saying "I know little Hindi. I tried to learn, but politicians
prevented. Many in Tamil Nadu love Hindi" etc.
>> I may only differ in the methods and sometime oppose their double
>> standards (because there is no other better party which has guts
>> to do this).
>
>> M. Sundaramoorthy
>> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>
>Sai
M. Sundaramoorthy
P.S: Ironically, in a long discussion on Ilayaraja, his major
achievement of turning the TN youth towards Tamil film music,
who otherwise were listining to Hindi music during early 70s,
was not even mentioned in passing.
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>In article <2C694CD...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
>>In article <1993Aug11....@usl.edu> spo...@ucs.usl.edu (Sai) writes:
>>
>> The cultural exchanges can happen at different levels:
>>
>> (1). Individual level: Sai teaching his friend 'vaNakkam'. His friend
>> greeting him with 'vaNakkam' and he greeting his friend with 'namastE'.
>> There is no problem here.
>>
>> Selva's point is, a Tamil wishing another Tamil with 'namastE'
>> is considered as our 'broadmindeness'. Does such a practice as a non-
>> Tamil greeting another non-Tamil with vaNakkam exist north?.
>
>I think, exposure to namaste is more than exposure to vanakkam. I don't
Is this not besides the point?
My observation was about greetings and exchanges between two
Tamils. SundarM's question above crystalizes this point.
As an aside:
As many seem to point out thta 'ram ram' etc. are more prevalent among
common folks ( though among pundit folks namaste might be
more in vogue), then 'ram-ram' or the other expression should be
considered as the most popular form of greeting.
I'm mildly surpised that common folks don't
have or have lost a way of wishing mutual greetings, if one
existed, not invloving a god or king etc. . [ what
would a north indian siva-follower say ? Siva-Siva ? or
Parvathi-Siva ? or Namap paarvathee pathayEm ? Probably the
north indians must be broad minded, so they all say ram-ram ?!]
>want to rule out the possibility that my friend may use vanakkam to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>someone not necessarily from Tamil Nadu. This certainly depends on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Technically this is possible, but your arguement is like
'naan pidichcha muyalukku mooNE kaalu' :-)
[ please discuss with greater realness, shall i say ]
>how much the word attracted him (likewise some of our culture ) ,
>or how commonly that word appears.
>
> Stuff Deleted
>
>> I will continue after getting an answer for this.
>
>Hope to have a healthy discussion with you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Me too.
>> M. Sundaramoorthy
>> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>
>Sai
>__________________________________________________________
>Scientists Often Fail but
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
_Who_ finds this out ?!
>Science Never Fails
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
_Who_ finds this out ?! :-)
>__________________________________________________________
anbudan
-Selvaa
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
> M. Sundaramoorthy
> P.S: Ironically, in a long discussion on Ilayaraja, his major
> achievement of turning the TN youth towards Tamil film music,
> who otherwise were listining to Hindi music during early 70s,
> was not even mentioned in passing.
Good point sundar.
He also made the Hindi folks like thamizh film
tunes. My friend used to tell me that in Nagpoor
his room mates liked the tune in "annakiLi song.
Our Baljit in Ottawa who conducts INDIA RADIO is
a fan of iLayaraaja and plays some thamizh songs in
INDIA PROGRAM that used to broadcast only HINDI songs.
When people heard thamizh songs they started questioning
him Why not gujaraathi? why not teLugu?
Baljit's favourite is raakkamaa kaiyaththattu.
He says the canadian lady in the studio danced to that song.
Another song is "kaNNE kalai maanE" adopted directly
into Hindi.
exs of tunes in other languages:
"senthoorap poovE-sirimallip poova-teLugu. O priyap
priyaa-thamizh-teLugu"
kanniks might have a more complete list.
anban
kathir
Sai
>In article <1993Aug12.2...@usl.edu> spo...@ucs.usl.edu (Sai) writes:
>>In article <2C6A933...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
>>
>> Stuff Deleted
>>
>>> is a National language, every patriotic Indian should know Hindi
>>> etc were created and kept alive by the vested interests. The
>>> common Hindi people are not to be blamed, but only our leaders,
>>
>>This is what I have tried to tell many of my friends at North too, who
>>thought till I explained to them that *ALL* Tamils are personally
>>against their language and culture. I even offered to show
>>pictures of places where they teach Hindi (ingu hindi katru
>>kodukkappadum) in Erode. On seeing my seriousness they gave up their
>>misinformation. By the way, have many of us seen such private
>>teachings in Tamil Nadu?
>
> If I were in your place, I would have tried to make them realise
> their expectations of us learning Hindi is not justified. If you
Not only justified, detrimental too. I have told this many times to them!
> show a picture of an Hindi institute in TN that will only increase their
> expectations. Your act at the best would have shown the Hindi-opposing
> TN politicians in "bad light", but made them believe the common Tamils
> are servile to accept the demand to learn Hindi and do so in private
> institutions. This kind of "explanations" are dangerous in my
> opinion and can only strengthen their "superiority" complex.
There was some misunderstanding. My point was to convey to them that
learning or not learning is our choice. *No one* has any say on that.
Politicians stand (at least are supposed to) for the opposition of
imposition. They are to *not* tell us what we should learn or not.
(of course they can advise us to achieve an objective!).
Sure you are right in telling that they would think common Tamils
to be servile, had I shown those in meek surrender. I assure you,
I offered to show them in totally opposite situation.
>
> Did they show you a picture of any institute in a remote northern
> town teaching Tamil or Telugu to prove they are not chavunists and
> they are for cultural exchanges?. Can you show pictures of any
> such institutes to your Oriya, Bengali, Kannadiga friends teaching
> their languages in Tamil Nadu?. Even when we talk about opposing the
> cultural domination, we are not able to give it up ourselves. We still
> have a long way to go to get rid of such attitude.
>
See, the answer to your questions is an obvious NO. I am sincerely trying to
find a way to make it YES. My approach is definitely not offensive. I wish to
take a polite (politeness does not imply weakness, IMHO) stand in this
problem.
Stuff Deleted
>
> I wouldn't mind learning Hindi if I know for sure I will be going
> to stay in north for a long period. And it will be much easier and
> faster to learn after moving in Hindi speaking environment than
> learning in TN schools. I personally don't believe that everyone in
> the state will migrate to north and hence has to learn
> Hindi for ten years in the school. For the sake of an insignificant
That is what I used to tell my friends at North. Those who want to
learn, can and will do so. TN politicians don't come in their way.
> % of prospective migrants, a great majority need not waste their
> school hours learning a language that they are never going to use
> in their life. I would rather sleep an hour more everyday :-).
>
> While the prospect of going to the neighbouring states are more
> why not stress learning those languages?. How many hours can we afford
> to learn only languages?.
>
> I never found it necessary to defend myself with my Hindi friends
> saying "I know little Hindi. I tried to learn, but politicians
> prevented. Many in Tamil Nadu love Hindi" etc.
>
If anyone said that I would consider that to be a JOKE.
>>> I may only differ in the methods and sometime oppose their double
>>> standards (because there is no other better party which has guts
>>> to do this).
>>
>>> M. Sundaramoorthy
>>> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>>
>>Sai
>
> M. Sundaramoorthy
>
> P.S: Ironically, in a long discussion on Ilayaraja, his major
> achievement of turning the TN youth towards Tamil film music,
> who otherwise were listining to Hindi music during early 70s,
> was not even mentioned in passing.
Sai
Sai
>(Sai) writes:
>
>>I agree to every sentence except the last one. Modified one: "It is
>>definitely not good to play the anti-national card for our assertive
>>behaviour towards our culture. Every one loves his/her mother."
>
> I certainly agree with this. Also, One need not hate the other
> person's mother to show his/her affection to his/her mother.
Well said.
>
>
>>Sai
>
>
>>PostScript: Even I had tough times with many people in India. In North,
>>because I am from South and in Madras because I am from Erode.
>
Stuff Deleted
> But I have not faced any problems in Madras (because I was from
> ERODE..). I do not know what exactly you mean by probs. in Mds.
Selvaraj, I mentioned that only to indicate that despite problems,
I don't hate the situation. And to express desire to find solutions.
I shall write on the problems at Madras later sometime. For two reasons:
Lack of time (in other words laziness) and problems at Madras
are not directly linked to the main topic.
> I stayed in a Hostel.. and there were students from various
> backgrounds - from all around Tamil Nadu and from other states
> too. May be that's why I did not face any probls in Madras...
>
>
> anbudan
> Selvaraj.
Sai
Sai
>In article <1993Aug11.2...@usl.edu> spo...@ucs.usl.edu (Sai) writes:
>>In article <2C694CD...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
>>>In article <1993Aug11....@usl.edu> spo...@ucs.usl.edu (Sai) writes:
>>>
>>> The cultural exchanges can happen at different levels:
>>>
>>> (1). Individual level: Sai teaching his friend 'vaNakkam'. His friend
>>> greeting him with 'vaNakkam' and he greeting his friend with 'namastE'.
>>> There is no problem here.
>>>
>>> Selva's point is, a Tamil wishing another Tamil with 'namastE'
>>> is considered as our 'broadmindeness'. Does such a practice as a non-
>>> Tamil greeting another non-Tamil with vaNakkam exist north?.
>>
>>I think, exposure to namaste is more than exposure to vanakkam. I don't
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Is this not besides the point?
I was trying to see, why two Tamils use Namaste when two non Tamils don't
use vanakkam. You can judge if it is beisdes or not.
> My observation was about greetings and exchanges between two
> Tamils. SundarM's question above crystalizes this point.
>
> As an aside:
> As many seem to point out thta 'ram ram' etc. are more prevalent among
> common folks ( though among pundit folks namaste might be
> more in vogue), then 'ram-ram' or the other expression should be
> considered as the most popular form of greeting.
> I'm mildly surpised that common folks don't
> have or have lost a way of wishing mutual greetings, if one
> existed, not invloving a god or king etc. . [ what
> would a north indian siva-follower say ? Siva-Siva ? or
Might say, Shiv Shiv :-)
> Parvathi-Siva ? or Namap paarvathee pathayEm ? Probably the
> north indians must be broad minded, so they all say ram-ram ?!]
>
>>want to rule out the possibility that my friend may use vanakkam to
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>someone not necessarily from Tamil Nadu. This certainly depends on
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Technically this is possible, but your arguement is like
> 'naan pidichcha muyalukku mooNE kaalu' :-)
> [ please discuss with greater realness, shall i say ]
Based on my prioir experience with you, I hold my comments. I have
noted the point, though.
>
>>how much the word attracted him (likewise some of our culture ) ,
>>or how commonly that word appears.
>>
>> Stuff Deleted
>>
>>> I will continue after getting an answer for this.
>>
>>Hope to have a healthy discussion with you.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You got it buddy!
>
> Me too.
>
>>> M. Sundaramoorthy
>>> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>>
>>Sai
>>__________________________________________________________
>>Scientists Often Fail but
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> _Who_ finds this out ?!
Scientists.
>
>>Science Never Fails
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> _Who_ finds this out ?! :-)
No one finds this, someone found it! :-)
>>__________________________________________________________
>
>
> anbudan
> -Selvaa
Sai
--
__________________________________________________________
Scientists Often Fail but
Science Never Fails
__________________________________________________________