Telugu and Tamil
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
Subject was: Re: ...... QWERTY keyboard designed by a tamilian ... ?
In article <1992Sep8.1...@b30.ingr.com>, sh...@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar) writes:
> [ some deleted]
> Che che! How can you say that ? You should be put in an I-RUN cage and placed
> in a JOO. ..)
>
> Mr. Kathiravan,
>
> Do you know that the Telugu word for Tamizh is "aravam" meaning "unmusical".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Contrast this with Baaradhiyaar's "Sundara telungu".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In Tamil too "aravam" means "unqualified sound". "aaL aravam
ketkuthu" means "there is some sound of someone moving/speaking".
"aravam" means "gentle but unspecified sound"; Since Tamil
does not use "harsh" sounds such as "kha", "jha" and such aspirated
phonemes, it could have sounded bland to Telugus. It might have
sounded "too gentle" or "too bland".
Further in Tamil "aravam" means snake and Tamils are known as
snake worshippers ( Naaga Kanni and Siva, Muruga, Ranganatha
worshippers) and this could have been another reason to call
them as "aravam". [ snake signifies the spinal chord and
the five-headed snake signifies the five senses; the snake
on which the Krishna dancing or the snake which lies on Siva
or near Muruga denote they are beyond ( conquered) the five
senses....]
In any case, if as you say the Telugus think- Tamil as
"unmusical" ( due to bland and simple sounds) it certainly
shows how Telugus received Tamil. It is sad that the wisdom,
beauty and the music of Tamil are not perceptible to Telugus but
I feel if the Telugus pay more attention they might see the
simplicity and the music of Tamil. If you know that music
comes from simple sounds/notes you will begin to see the
euphonious nature of Tamil.
Regarding Bharathiyaar's "Sundara Telungu" , it is certainly a
"sORRu_patham" of Tamil's receptivity. [ soRRu_patham =
a test of a single grain of rice to assess the right stage/level
of cooking of a whole pot of rice. sORu=cooked rice,
patham= right level/stage of cooking]. Bharathiyaar certainly
stands testimony to the long line of poets of great receptivity.
For a Tamil the
words "Telugu" and "Telungu" will sound differently, the later
being considered more euphonious. Tamils consider Telungu
sweet. Please also know that the same Bharathiyaar had also sung
"yaam aRintha mozhigaLilE Thamizh mozhi pol inithaavathu..kaaNOm"
= Of all the languages I know I haven't found any as
euphonious (inithu) as Tamil anywhere !!
Even if you were to say that Tamil is "unmusical", I have
no trouble in concurring with you that Telungu is sweet,
may be we have different ears (-:
>
> Talking about such feelings between communities that share racial, cultural
> and many other features, we should realize that the great Indian epic
> MaGaabaratham is nothing but a glorious description of fights between brothers.
>
> Jagadisan Shivakumarulu
(anbudan) Regards,
Selva Selvakumar
murahi paranandi
a fight over some smell of cooking non-vegitarian food or something like that.
Sarita's mother goes:
"Veellanthenandi, Aravvallu... Aravam Aravam Antune Arustuntaru!"
If I remember it right, dialogues were by Ganesh Patro.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
I quote here a very classical poetry, kuRunthokai that uses
aravu-pampu-snake. Also if somebody know Tamizh, he can read
and appreciate the sound. This sounds great. I have split
all the sandhi's for clarity. When this
poetry (2n dcent BC) was written, telugu did not exist as a written communicable
language.
People who know that will not come with "key board stories".
The sound of "L" is used umpteen number of times in the four
lines. This poetry is written in kuRinji (mountain-denoting
union) setting.
Also, see the metaphor in the poetry. This poem is told
by a lover (man) to his friend (paangkan, thOzhan).
What bother's you my friend? Question
Answer:
"siRuveL aravin avvarik kuruLai
kaana yaanai aNangki aangku
iLayaL, muLai-vaaL-eyiRRaL,
vaLaiyudaik kaiyaL, yem aNangki yOLE!"
siRuveL-small white
aravin-snake's
avvarik kuruLai-sriped young body
aNangu-as a verb is to trouble, as a noun is a respected woman
or Goddess. here the verb form is used in the 2 nd and 4 th line.
aangku-like, used here for explicit comparison,
iLaiyaL-young girl
muLai-sprout
vaaL-used to denote the brightness or the shine in this context,
eyiRu-pal=teeth
vaLai-bangle.
Translation: AK Ramanujan:
As a little white snake with its lovely-striped
body troubles the jungle elephant this
slip of a girl
her teeth like sprouts of new rice
her writs stacked with bangles
troubles me.
metaphor-sweetheart is the little snake.
mighty elephant-our man
what bothers him really is her body with stripes . Those days
women used to adore their breats with stripes.
Irshad A. Mohammad
> phonemes, it could have sounded bland to Telugus. It might have
> sounded "too gentle" or "too bland".
No way!! :-)
Irshad.
PVR Narasimha Rao
In article <BuCJr...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep8.1...@b30.ingr.com>, sh...@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar) writes:
|> > Do you know that the Telugu word for Tamizh is "aravam" meaning "unmusical".
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> > Contrast this with Baaradhiyaar's "Sundara telungu".
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>
|> In Tamil too "aravam" means "unqualified sound". "aaL aravam
|> ketkuthu" means "there is some sound of someone moving/speaking".
|> "aravam" means "gentle but unspecified sound"; Since Tamil
|> does not use "harsh" sounds such as "kha", "jha" and such aspirated
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|> phonemes, it could have sounded bland to Telugus. It might have
|> sounded "too gentle" or "too bland".
~~~~~~~~~~~
Having lived in Madras for 4 years and having had friends who considered Tamil
a very odd-sounding language, let me analyze impassionately why _some_ Telugus
(and others, who are not Tamils) think Tamil sounds odd.
It is not the lack of aspirated sounds that makes Tamil sound bland to some
Telugus, but it is the heavy usage of alveolar sounds and repeated consonants
that makes it sound odd and funny to some Telugus.
From my exposure to Tamil (I never spoke Tamil, but I heard a lot of it. I
watched a lot of Tamil films and watched a lot of Madras TV), I can say that
Tamil uses "alveolar" /t/, /d/ and /n/ very frequently (atleast compared to
Telugu). In Telugu, these sounds are very rarely used (see Kishore's %
estimates).
Also, other alveolar sounds like dark /l/, dark /r/ ("R" - it is rarely used in
Telugu. Moreover, now-a-days, it's being replaced with the ordinary 'r') and
"zh" (which is very close to dark /l/ though it's written this way) are very
common in Tamil.
To add to these, repeated consonants like "TT" (alveolar), "kk", "pp" are very
common in Tamil (as in "ungaLiTTa", "engiTTa", "iNNikku", "saappaTTu"). Moreover
Occurrances like /C1 C1 V C2 C2/ (where C1, C2 are two consonants and V is an
vowel) are not very uncommon in Tamil (in a way, Tamils make up for the lack of
frequent usage of aspirated consonants by using repeated consonants).
When the English word "hotel" is taken into Telugu, it becomes "hOTalu". But,
in Tamil, it becomes "vOTTalu". Also, "coffee" becomes "kAppi". Tamils love to
use repeated consonants.
But, all these phonetic patterns are very unusual in Telugu and to some Telugus
they may sound very funny and rather odd.
Every language is different and, if one encounters a language which heavily
uses some phonetic patterns which she/he [PMC! Politically More Correct :-)]
is not at all used to, it is no wonder if he/she finds the language odd.
There is no need to be offended by it. One _learns_ a language as he grows up
and accumulates a sense of phonetical euphony. If someone finds the patterns
common to your language odd, why should you get offended by it, after all! It
doesn't mean anything if some Telugus think Tamil is a cacophonious language.
It doesn't mean Tamils and Telugus are enemies; Telugus don't have respect for
Tamils; Telugus are petty-minded etc.
|> In any case, if as you say the Telugus think- Tamil as
|> "unmusical" ( due to bland and simple sounds) it certainly
|> shows how Telugus received Tamil. It is sad that the wisdom,
|> beauty and the music of Tamil are not perceptible to Telugus but
|> I feel if the Telugus pay more attention they might see the
|> simplicity and the music of Tamil. If you know that music
|> comes from simple sounds/notes you will begin to see the
|> euphonious nature of Tamil.
Why don't you understand that you are programmed to see euphony in those sound
patterns and the way another person is programmed makes him think those patterns
sound silly? There is no dispute or debate here. One's sense of phonetic
beauty will be developed based on the patterns he learns, after all.
If someone comes and says, "Telugu is a cacophonious language. It sounds
horrible", I will not care. I will not get into lengthy debates and try to
explain how euphonious Telugu is. I'll just ignore her/him. I just don't
understand why some Tamils are so sensitive to this and start majorly defending
the euphonious nature of Tamil. And, someone (was it Kathivaran?) said Telugus
suffered from an inferiority complex in this matter, huh! ;-)
|> Regarding Bharathiyaar's "Sundara Telungu" , it is certainly a
|> "sORRu_patham" of Tamil's receptivity. [ soRRu_patham =
|> a test of a single grain of rice to assess the right stage/level
|> of cooking of a whole pot of rice. sORu=cooked rice,
|> patham= right level/stage of cooking]. Bharathiyaar certainly
|> stands testimony to the long line of poets of great receptivity.
|> For a Tamil the
|> words "Telugu" and "Telungu" will sound differently, the later
|> being considered more euphonious. Tamils consider Telungu
|> sweet. Please also know that the same Bharathiyaar had also sung
|> "yaam aRintha mozhigaLilE Thamizh mozhi pol inithaavathu..kaaNOm"
|> = Of all the languages I know I haven't found any as
|> euphonious (inithu) as Tamil anywhere !!
|> Even if you were to say that Tamil is "unmusical", I have
|> no trouble in concurring with you that Telungu is sweet,
|> may be we have different ears (-:
Seriously, are you trying to say that Bharathiyaar just meant that the word
"Telungu" sounded more sweet than the word "Telugu" did by "Sundara Telungu"?
Don't you think he meant Telu[n]gu was a sweet language? Or, don't you think
Telugu is a sweet language? May be you are not blessed with the same ears
which Bharathiyaar was endowed with .... ;-)
|> (anbudan) Regards,
|> Selva Selvakumar
Chill out
PVR
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>patterns and the way another person is programmed makes him think those patterns
>sound silly? There is no dispute or debate here. One's sense of phonetic
>beauty will be developed based on the patterns he learns, after all.
>If someone comes and says, "Telugu is a cacophonious language. It sounds
>horrible", I will not care. I will not get into lengthy debates and try to
You can tell whatever you want. But do not generalize and if somebody
like the guy who sends mail like the QWERTY keyboard can keep
his knowledge to himself everything is fine.
>explain how euphonious Telugu is. I'll just ignore her/him. I just don't
>understand why some Tamils are so sensitive to this and start majorly defending
>the euphonious nature of Tamil.
my friend, I am Kathir avan. I did not say Telugus suffered
from inferiority complex. I pointed clearly to the Mr. who
sent hate mails repeatedly on Keyboards. So you don't conclude
^^^^^^^^^
that whole bunch of Telugus were accused. I pointed to that guy and
not on the Telugus as a community. Please just read the mail and
reply.
And, someone (was it Kathivaran?) said Telugus
>suffered from an inferiority complex in this matter, huh! ;-)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> may be we have different ears (-:
>Chill out
>PVR
Cool,
Kathiravan.
nl...@cas.org
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
CULTURED INDIANS (SOUTHERNERS)!
Grow up souls! Are n't you matured enough mentally? Are you guys from boarder
(backward) areas back home? What a waste of time? Do contribute some valuable
articles to the net. Why do you ridicule each other's culture, language, and
relegion? Inida is a land of diversity and that is the beauty of our Mother
Land. Adore the cultures! Respect each other's values and heritage! Language
is language guys. You are all fortunate to be born as humans who can use
languages as media of communication (in a cultured way). Be happy!
Please stop all at once ridiculing each other.
PALANA
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
PARANANDI LAKSHMI NARASIMHAM
CAS
COLUMBUS
OH 43202
Opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of CAS.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>
> In article <BuCJr...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>, selv...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
>
> |> In article <1992Sep8.1...@b30.ingr.com>, sh...@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shivakumar) writes:
>
> |> > Do you know that the Telugu word for Tamizh is "aravam" meaning "unmusical".
> |> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
but, I don't wish to debate them at this time]
> Why don't you understand that you are programmed to see euphony in those sound
> patterns and the way another person is programmed makes him think those patterns
This argument can be used for anything ! It was my effort to
communicate in a positive sense and not to defend Tamil . I think
you are programmed to think that it was to defend (-:
[ no offense meant, only light hearted fun ]
> sound silly? There is no dispute or debate here. One's sense of phonetic
> beauty will be developed based on the patterns he learns, after all.
>
> If someone comes and says, "Telugu is a cacophonious language. It sounds
> horrible", I will not care. I will not get into lengthy debates and try to
> explain how euphonious Telugu is. I'll just ignore her/him. I just don't
> understand why some Tamils are so sensitive to this and start majorly defending
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No I don't think they are. The response i gave was not out of
defence mentality but rather in the hope of communicating
possibly some new thoughts, thats all.
> the euphonious nature of Tamil. And, someone (was it Kathivaran?) said Telugus
> suffered from an inferiority complex in this matter, huh! ;-)
>
>
> |> Regarding Bharathiyaar's "Sundara Telungu" , it is certainly a
> |> "sORRu_patham" of Tamil's receptivity. [ soRRu_patham =
> |> a test of a single grain of rice to assess the right stage/level
> |> of cooking of a whole pot of rice. sORu=cooked rice,
> |> patham= right level/stage of cooking]. Bharathiyaar certainly
> |> stands testimony to the long line of poets of great receptivity.
> |> For a Tamil the
> |> words "Telugu" and "Telungu" will sound differently, the later
> |> being considered more euphonious. Tamils consider Telungu
> |> sweet. Please also know that the same Bharathiyaar had also sung
> |> "yaam aRintha mozhigaLilE Thamizh mozhi pol inithaavathu..kaaNOm"
> |> = Of all the languages I know I haven't found any as
> |> euphonious (inithu) as Tamil anywhere !!
> |> Even if you were to say that Tamil is "unmusical", I have
> |> no trouble in concurring with you that Telungu is sweet,
> |> may be we have different ears (-:
>
>
> Seriously, are you trying to say that Bharathiyaar just meant that the word
> "Telungu" sounded more sweet than the word "Telugu" did by "Sundara Telungu"?
> Don't you think he meant Telu[n]gu was a sweet language? Or, don't you think
> Telugu is a sweet language? May be you are not blessed with the same ears
> which Bharathiyaar was endowed with .... ;-)
No. I didn't mean that bharathiyaar mean just the word
"Telungu" !!! ( see I didn't succeed in communicating
(-:). Bharathiyar meant the euphonious Telungu language.
**I** added the comment that for Tamils the word
"Telungu" will sound more euphonious than the word "Telugu".
>
>
> |> (anbudan) Regards,
> |> Selva Selvakumar
>
>
> Chill out
> PVR
anbudan ( = regards)
Selva Selvakumar
PVR Narasimha Rao
In article <kat.716476540@ro>, k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
|> You can tell whatever you want. But do not generalize and if somebody
|> like the guy who sends mail like the QWERTY keyboard can keep
|> his knowledge to himself everything is fine.
I think I couldn't make what I wanted to say clear and ended up giving an
impression of ridiculing the Tamil language, which wasn't my aim at all.
If one finds a language odd due to a heavy usage of phonetic patterns one is
not used to, there is nothing wrong about it and there is no need for anyone to
be offended by it.
However, if one starts ridiculing or making derisive comments based on that,
it's very unfortunate. It just reflects the maturity of that particular person.
I wasn't supporting any comments on QWERTY keyboard etc. Nor was I trying to
ridicule the phonetic patterns in Tamil. Far from that. Each language has its
own sound patterns and and some patterns may sound unusual to others. There is
nothing bad about it.
If any Tamils (for that matter, anyone) found my comments towards the end of my
article insensitive and offensive, I sincerely apologize.
|> Cool,
|> Kathiravan.
Peace
PVR
PVR Narasimha Rao
In article <2AB52B...@news.service.uci.edu>, sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
|> Aside: I heard two explanations for the origin of the word Telugu.
|> (1). It is derived from 'tri linga' desam, language of the land of
|> three lingams and
The three lingas are "Sri Sailam", "Sri Kalahasti" and "Bhimeswaram".
There are some documentations of the words "trilinga desam" and "trilinga
bhasha" having been used in old shila_shasana's.
Also, in old poetry, we find "telungu" in the place of "telugu". The assumption
is "trilinga" became "telunga", "telungu", "telugu".
Even a few decades back, while writing "telugu", traditionalists used to put
an "ara sunna" (ardhaanuswaar - half nasal) between lu and gu, which means
there was a nasal between them and it was dropped in usage.
|> (2). 'thenugu' ie. sweet like honey.
|> M. Sundaramoorthy
|> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
PVR
Veeramany Sthanumurthy
In article <BuJwv...@rice.edu> p...@argo.rice.edu (PVR Narasimha Rao) writes:
[lots of stuff deleted]
[leaving some odd, some funny segments] <-- to very few people, maybe just
one!
>a very odd-sounding language, let me analyze impassionately why _some_ Telugus
>(and others, who are not Tamils) think Tamil sounds odd.
>But, all these phonetic patterns are very unusual in Telugu and to some Telugus
>they may sound very funny and rather odd.
>common to your language odd, why should you get offended by it, after all! It
>doesn't mean anything if some Telugus think Tamil is a cacophonious language.
>Why don't you understand that you are programmed to see euphony in those sound
>patterns and the way another person is programmed makes him think those patterns
>sound silly? There is no dispute or debate here. One's sense of phonetic
>beauty will be developed based on the patterns he learns, after all.
>If someone comes and says, "Telugu is a cacophonious language. It sounds
>horrible", I will not care. I will not get into lengthy debates and try to
>explain how euphonious Telugu is. I'll just ignore her/him. I just don't
>Chill out
>PVR
This "impassionate" non-"cacophonious" exposition has opened my eyes.
Trying to chill out (and perhaps do a shuffle?)
Sthan.
PS. My next puzzle is the Tamil adage: "kAkkaikkum tan kunju pon kunju"
{[even?] For a crow its young looks golden!} - waiting for a PC analysis!
--
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