SCT MEET 1993 - Memoirs from St. Louis. (LONG)
Bala SWAMINATHAN
-------------------
\bt
uvappath thalaikUdi uLLap pirithal
anaiththE pulavar thozil.
\et
It is a festival of joy when learned men come together; but
wistful grow their hearts when the time of their parting
arrives.
The First Annual SCT convention was successfully completed in
University of Waterloo, Canada on September 5, 1993. I am giving you a
record of events in the convention from my personal experience.
Friday September 3, 1993:
At about 3pm, I went to the library to return a book that was already
overdue. Since our flight to Detroit is at 5:55pm, I went to our
athletic complex and had the quota of exercise at 4pm itself. I had
arranged a ride with my room mate for SP and I at about 4:30pm.
Nevertheless, it was 5:20pm when we actually headed toward the
airport. The Southwest arilines is one of the Kings of recycling. They
gave plastic boarding passes, which they use it over and over. Once
inside the plane, we were looking for the seat numbers printed on the
boarding pass, but we were surprised not to find "our" seats. Since I
could not see a stewardess, I accosted a fellow passenger who said
that it is a "free for all" in Southwest and we can sit anywhere we
want!
My REC friends Ganapathi Raman and Isaac Rajendran had come to the
Detroit City airport to receive us. There I got a first look at a face
that I had known only through my xterm - Mr. Subbarajan Ponnusamy of
Wayne State University was also with my REC gang. Few minutes after we
reached my friends house, Mr. Sankara Pandi and Mahendra Mohan
(another REC friend of mine) arrived there. I called Meenan Vishnu's
house. As he was very busy with the aaNdu malar his wife answered the
phone and promptly gave me two contact numbers who were responsible
for the hospitality department. We headed for Canada at about 11:30pm.
Being Indians we had to get out of our car at Windsor, the entry port
for Canada. After a few minutes of paper work, we were allowed to
spend a few days in their country! We reached Waterloo and knocked at
Meenan's apt at about 4:00am feeling very guilty to wake up a little
known acquaintance. Meenan's wife's and his Mother's warm greetings
helped assuage our peccavi. Mr. Chandran put us in two appartments
solely to ourselves!
Saturday September 4, 1993:
We had idiyaappam at Meenan's house. And those were the best I had
ever had in North America. Extremely soft, yet separate threads of
cooked flour along with a special side gravy (I forgot the name).
Probably, I'll remember this for a long time. <<we then went to
Toronto/Niagara falls and had dinner at Savundi an Eelam Style
restaurant, and we paid more on taxes and tip than for the food!>>
Sunday September 5, 1993:
Amazingly enough we all got ready as early as 8:30am. We were invited to
Dr. Thangaraj's (apparently a Read-only netter from Nagarkoil area)
home for a breakfast. Well, I can't tell you more about the idlis and
uppumaas except that SSP and SP together had about 15 idlis. You
figure out the quality as well as their individual number of idlis.
The chutney was "real," as opposed to my original St. Louis chutney!
The SCT convention started at about 10:05am with the vaazththup paadal
by me. I sang the Barathidasan's \bt"sangE muzangu"\et song. There
were about 25-30 people, but they were constantly coming in. Since
ADAMI Srinivasan could not make it to the meet for personal reasons,
SP gave the introductory talk on "The Genesis of Soc.Culture.Tamil."
Many names who worked to makes our\bt valai\et (net) a reality were
remembered. Toronto\bt thamiz anbargaL\et (Tamil friends) were now
coming in. The crowd has now increased to about 40. SP talked for
about 20 minutes.
I talked about Pudumaipittan with a title of\bt maNikkodi
ilakkiyam\et. With a 20 minute limit, I wouldn't be able to cover all
his 96 odd short stories, and I had no intention of doing that. I
talked about Pudumaippittan's contemporaries in English like Llevlyn
Powys, James Joyce, Maupassant, Hans Fallada, and remembered some
comprable styles of these authors with PP. I did not fail to mention
some interesting situations from his great stories like\bt ponnagaram,
kadavuLum kanthasaamippiLLaiyum, cAbavimOcaNam, nAcakArak kumbal\et
etc. Now we had the capacity crowd of about 55.
Meenan and Kathiravan along with Dr. Vijayakumar came there with about
50 copies of the ANdu malar, and Dr. Ponnambalam released the malar.
Sankara Pandi gave a talk on "The Society and the Oppressed," although
his title was "thamizth thiraip padangaLil peNgaL." He talked about
Women in popular Tamil Movies, how humans are illtreated by people who
call themselves human beings, and said a woman's life among the
DaiLiths is even more miscerable. He evidenced a novel (daLith
literature) titled\bt karukku\et written by a woman named Bama, who
struggled to get a graduate degree. It could be said that his speech
was an indication of things to come. Many people in the audience were
determined and want to do something for the society (will talk more
about it when describing the afternoon session). Someone suggested
that the speakers answer questions from the audience. This added spice
and interesting exchange of ideas. Questions were directed toward all
three of us and SP answered the final question from Dr. Selvakumar who
reminded him of Mr. P. I. Arasu's contribution.
After this, SP again came to the forefront and talked in the title\bt
kAlamum ilakkiyamum\et. His talk was long and he covered various
epochs of Tamil ilakkiyam and detailed his views of how they were
changing with time. Kathiravan gave a "theeppoRi" speech on "Do not
change History"\bt (varalARRai mARRAthIr\et). He ``tackled'' a
question from Thangaraj very fiercefully, and since Thangaraj knows
Kathir well enough, he had "accepted" Kathir's "answer!"
Mr. Vigneswaran (Vicky) attracted us with his Eelam Tamil. He talked
about different stages of Eelam Tamil poems. Vicky's description of
the\bt pulampuyarnthavar kavigaL\et was very coherent. It should be
noted that Vicky's talk was an extempore, and he did a great job of
it. There was a question about the nature of the poems in the 1990's
and Vicky said that even though many of these poets were not living
there in Eelam they have seen and experienced the state sponsored
terrorism directly or indirectly, and that's one of the reasons for
the "life" in these poems.
Lastly, Meenan with his soft voice mellifluously cuckooed agains
Imperialism in Hindu society. He lambasted the religous rites and
fatalism being spread in the name of religion. Although he mentioned
teh word brahmanism, never did he use "brahmins" as the suppressors of
Tamils, but brahministic minded people. So Selva's suggestion to
distinguish brahmin and brahminists which was pur forth after the talk
was only a supplement. Most of the Eelam Tamils were agreeing with
Meenan's and others' discussing the issue that unnecessarily grand
rituals and waste of money should be avoided. The an elderly gentleman
from Toronto talked about the College for Tamil Studies, Culture, and
Art that was recently founded in Toronto. I forgot his name (is it
Natarajan?). The aim of this College is to teach Tamils and others
about their great culture and keep promoting Tamil among Canadians.
The lunch was excellent. The food, albeit being on the hotter side,
was prepared with diligence. The\bt pAyAsam, kUttu, sAmbAr\et etc,
were simply exquisite. This was also an Eelam style food. There was an
exhibition of Tamil books, CDs, cassettes (both video and audio),
Tamil newspapers, Tamil magazines, was held during the lunch time. If
you have had an opinion that all Eelam Tamils are terrorists then you
would realize that you were dead wrong. They are very congenial,
sociable, and friendly people. Their Tamil is million times better
than our Tamil (is it not Tanglish?). The music while they croon to
you is an experience. This is the first time I met with such a large
number of Eelam Tamils, and I am glad I did. All my prejudices, if
any, are as I said prejudices. They are gone now!!
During the lunch break, the registration and ANdu malar selling was
carried out. Apparently all the copies of the ANdu malar are sold out!
This is despite the fact that I, SP, two of my friends, and many
others decided to take the comprehensive version of the malar (with
all articles).
In the afternoon session, Dr. Ponnambalam gave a academical talk about
his "Mathematical model for reservation." He himself agreed that his
is a primitive model which needs a lot of tweaking. I did not agree
with the conclusions. "The model is deterministic while the reality is
not," Kathir expressed his reservation!! It was a good effort and the
ANdu malar has details about this paper. I discussed about various
Tamil Softwares available (\bt vaLarnthuvarum thamizp padimangaL\et).
I started with Dr. George Hart's Mac fonts, Dr. Kuppusamy's Tamil
Teaching software, ADAMI, Palladam, Madurai, Wntml, m2t, xtmlfonts
etc. The word "padimam" was used for software and "vanpathivu" for
hardcopy.
The afternoon session was highlighted with two discussions. The first
one on "The Necessity for Popularization of Science in Tamil" was
coordinated by Sankarapandi, who gave a very very impressive and
inspiring talk (much more than that was discussed in SCT). He even put
forward a proposal about what should be done, and opened the
discussion. Since many Eelam Tamils understand the need for Science in
Tamil and they had studied in Tamil, they had little problem
appreciating the need. Some of them even suggested that it is an
immediate necessity for a country to improve.
Even though this was quite fruitful, it was long and tiring. So
Kathiravan's Carleton "gang" gave what is called a\bt "kavithA
nigazvu," ~(Kavitha Nigalvu)~ athaavathu oru allathu pala
kavinyargaLin palappala kavithaigaLai oru kathai pOl thangaL kaRpanai
koNdu chErththuc cholvathu.\et It was a nice piece of interlude. One
interesting observation made by them was that the local priests were
amazing in finding a Saturday night to be the best day (\bt nalla
nAL\et) for ceremonies.
The second discussion on "Science education in Tamil" was coordinated
by Selva. He started the discussion which was later supported and
streamlined by many useful thoughts. I was of the opinion (so was
Selva, and Sankarapandi I suppose) that technical words (\bt
kalaichchoRkaL\et) were not an immediate necessity. But, many Eelam
Tamil opined that if they had technical words they would start using
it in their newspapers and magazines. One friend said that\bt ulangu
vAnUrthi\et was first used for a helicopter in the toronto radio
station. One they become familiar with the word not it is commonly
used and easily understood.
The need for science for Eelam Tamils right now was stressed by many
Eelam Tamils, like quick paddy, water storage, i.e. things necessary
under oppressive situations. The same friend later noted that he was
extremely happy to see the FIRST conglomeration of Eelam Tamils and
Tamil Nadu (indian) Tamils, and he was happier to see something useful
being discussed other than cinema and useless things. Most of them
felt that next year aaNdu malar has to be prepared carefully, and
strict guidelines have to be given so that articles that are not
useful for the current upliftment of the society can be easily
filtered out. Being engineers and scientists the articles need to have
some translation of some technical writings. This was generally
accepted by many.
The dinner was served and I may sound like a bore if I again speak the
truth in praising the quality of the food. One word - Great.
That night Kathir was the source of entertainment! He was frank and it
was hilarious, especially his\bt konguth thamiz\et. We had a long and
frank chat at Meenan's home. I'd like to meet with many of those folks
again.
Monday September 6, 1993:
We along with Kathiravan went to Selva's house and had authentic
modern Tamil food. Idlis, uppumaa, pittu, kEsari, podi, - all items
were generally great. His wife, father, mother, and daughters
mathuarasi and sivaNi were very cordial and hospitable. Kathir was a
well known figure there in Waterloo. Waterloo is one of the places
where the people are extremely friendly and volumes can be written
about their hospitality. I sincerely thank Meenan for giving an
opportunity to learn about Eelam Tamils, first hand. We left Waterloo
after taking leave from Meenan, his mother, wife, and his daughter
Vanmathi. We were back in Detroit at about 4:00pm and my REC friends
made dinner for all of us. After a photograph session Sankarapandi and
Mahendra Mohan left for Dayton/Columbus with a heavy heart. I and SP
barely made it to our 6:55pm flight to St. Louis.
Even though I very tired, I was musing over the pleasant memories of
Waterloo. I hope Meenan Vishnu and Kathiravan will make the ANdu malar
available very soon. I'd like to have a copy.
--
____________________________________________________________________
| Time looks like an innocent thing; but verily it is a saw that |
| is continually sawing away the life of a man. -- Valluvar |
|__________________________________________________________________|
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
> SCT CONVENTION 1993
> -------------------
>\bt
> uvappath thalaikUdi uLLap pirithal
> anaiththE pulavar thozil.
>\et
> It is a festival of joy when learned men come together; but
> wistful grow their hearts when the time of their parting
> arrives.
How true. saNGkarapaaNdi, vicky, you and meenan, SP had
impressed the crowd. I missed your talk on the short story
stuff. The union was short and we departed soon. I just
wished I had rested more and had more time and energy to
spend on friends.
>The First Annual SCT convention was successfully completed in
>University of Waterloo, Canada on September 5, 1993. I am giving you a
>record of events in the convention from my personal experience.
>Friday September 3, 1993:
>Saturday September 4, 1993:
>We had idiyaappam at Meenan's house. And those were the best I had
>ever had in North America. Extremely soft, yet separate threads of
>cooked flour along with a special side gravy (I forgot the name).
>Probably, I'll remember this for a long time. <<we then went to
>Toronto/Niagara falls and had dinner at Savundi an Eelam Style
>restaurant, and we paid more on taxes and tip than for the food!>>
O boy! I enjoy that idi aappam and pittu all the time.
Even while returning I dropped by naNGkai-nagula's house.
, had dinner and returned home Tuesday morning 5'0Clock.
>Sunday September 5, 1993:
>DaiLiths is even more miscerable. He evidenced a novel (daLith
>literature) titled\bt karukku\et written by a woman named Bama, who
>struggled to get a graduate degree. It could be said that his speech
>was an indication of things to come. Many people in the audience were
>determined and want to do something for the society (will talk more
>about it when describing the afternoon session). Someone suggested
>that the speakers answer questions from the audience. This added spice
>and interesting exchange of ideas. Questions were directed toward all
>three of us and SP answered the final question from Dr. Selvakumar who
>reminded him of Mr. P. I. Arasu's contribution.
The audience were very receptive and knew a lot we were talkin
about.
>change History"\bt (varalARRai mARRAthIr\et). He ``tackled'' a
>question from Thangaraj very fiercefully, and since Thangaraj knows
>Kathir well enough, he had "accepted" Kathir's "answer!"
thaNGkam. Actually we met only on that day. But I do not have
words to say. It was as if we knew each other for years.
>Mr. Vigneswaran (Vicky) attracted us with his Eelam Tamil. He talked
>about different stages of Eelam Tamil poems. Vicky's description of
>the\bt pulampuyarnthavar kavigaL\et was very coherent. It should be
>noted that Vicky's talk was an extempore, and he did a great job of
>it. There was a question about the nature of the poems in the 1990's
>and Vicky said that even though many of these poets were not living
>there in Eelam they have seen and experienced the state sponsored
>terrorism directly or indirectly, and that's one of the reasons for
>the "life" in these poems.
His talk gave an optimistic picture of thamizh
poetry.
>The lunch was excellent. The food, albeit being on the hotter side,
>was prepared with diligence. The\bt pAyAsam, kUttu, sAmbAr\et etc,
>were simply exquisite. This was also an Eelam style food. There was an
>exhibition of Tamil books, CDs, cassettes (both video and audio),
>Tamil newspapers, Tamil magazines, was held during the lunch time. If
>you have had an opinion that all Eelam Tamils are terrorists then you
>would realize that you were dead wrong. They are very congenial,
>sociable, and friendly people. Their Tamil is million times better
>than our Tamil (is it not Tanglish?). The music while they croon to
>you is an experience. This is the first time I met with such a large
>number of Eelam Tamils, and I am glad I did. All my prejudices, if
>any, are as I said prejudices. They are gone now!!
The difference in thamizh was evident.
Vicky's was a special brand. Meenan's is closer in tone.
We thank all the people who made the food. Univ of
Waterloo students have to be commended. Meenan did
a great job.
>During the lunch break, the registration and ANdu malar selling was
>carried out. Apparently all the copies of the ANdu malar are sold out!
>This is despite the fact that I, SP, two of my friends, and many
>others decided to take the comprehensive version of the malar (with
>all articles).
>I started with Dr. George Hart's Mac fonts, Dr. Kuppusamy's Tamil
>Teaching software, ADAMI, Palladam, Madurai, Wntml, m2t, xtmlfonts
>etc. The word "padimam" was used for software and "vanpathivu" for
>hardcopy.
I liked the way in which you described Dr Kuppusamy's
software. The user friendly nature was put very lively.
>The afternoon session was highlighted with two discussions. The first
>one on "The Necessity for Popularization of Science in Tamil" was
>coordinated by Sankarapandi, who gave a very very impressive and
>inspiring talk (much more than that was discussed in SCT). He even put
>forward a proposal about what should be done, and opened the
>discussion. Since many Eelam Tamils understand the need for Science in
>Tamil and they had studied in Tamil, they had little problem
>appreciating the need. Some of them even suggested that it is an
>immediate necessity for a country to improve.
Mr NYaanapandithar spoke very well. He empasized the
need for a dictionary of technical words. Selva explained how
a useful description of a word, its variations, origin will
give life to word and help the users. Bala I acn only
say that if we come up with a list thamizhs here will use
them. One student anbu will come to me just wanting me
to tell about transistors and diodes in thamizh bcse he
felt that he understood them better. Even if I used
english tech words if I explained the functioning in
thamizh he liked it.
>Even though this was quite fruitful, it was long and tiring. So
>Kathiravan's Carleton "gang" gave what is called a\bt "kavithA
>nigazvu," ~(Kavitha Nigalvu)~ athaavathu oru allathu pala
>kavinyargaLin palappala kavithaigaLai oru kathai pOl thangaL kaRpanai
>koNdu chErththuc cholvathu.\et It was a nice piece of interlude. One
>interesting observation made by them was that the local priests were
>amazing in finding a Saturday night to be the best day (\bt nalla
>nAL\et) for ceremonies.
sivasOthi is a seasoned guy on stage. paarthiban and siva's brother
are young but are dedicated.
>The need for science for Eelam Tamils right now was stressed by many
>Eelam Tamils, like quick paddy, water storage, i.e. things necessary
>under oppressive situations. The same friend later noted that he was
>extremely happy to see the FIRST conglomeration of Eelam Tamils and
>Tamil Nadu (indian) Tamils, and he was happier to see something useful
>being discussed other than cinema and useless things. Most of them
>The dinner was served and I may sound like a bore if I again speak the
>truth in praising the quality of the food. One word - Great.
>That night Kathir was the source of entertainment! He was frank and it
>was hilarious, especially his\bt konguth thamiz\et. We had a long and
>frank chat at Meenan's home. I'd like to meet with many of those folks
>again.
>Monday September 6, 1993:
>We along with Kathiravan went to Selva's house and had authentic
>modern Tamil food. Idlis, uppumaa, pittu, kEsari, podi, - all items
>were generally great. His wife, father, mother, and daughters
>mathuarasi and sivaNi were very cordial and hospitable. Kathir was a
maruvarasi aiyaah! pEra maaRRatheer:-))
>well known figure there in Waterloo. Waterloo is one of the places
>where the people are extremely friendly and volumes can be written
>about their hospitality. I sincerely thank Meenan for giving an
>opportunity to learn about Eelam Tamils, first hand. We left Waterloo
>after taking leave from Meenan, his mother, wife, and his daughter
>Vanmathi. We were back in Detroit at about 4:00pm and my REC friends
>made dinner for all of us. After a photograph session Sankarapandi and
>Mahendra Mohan left for Dayton/Columbus with a heavy heart. I and SP
>barely made it to our 6:55pm flight to St. Louis.
SP has a feeling for our people, liberation
of eezham thamizhs, dalits and women. No flattery intended.
I could not even write much as I felt a sudden vacuum.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
> SangarapaaNdi has a feeling for our people, liberation
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of eezham thamizhs, dalits and women. No flattery intended.
>I could not even write much as I felt a sudden vacuum.
>>Even though I very tired, I was musing over the pleasant memories of
>>Waterloo.
I forgot to mention that I watched with meenan
and kala SP/Bala's drama. It was well done. I want to get
a copy of the script. SP had agreed to give us the permission
to reenact that. The message was very good. sOsiyaththai
maaRRa mudiyum, thiyaagam thEvai, thamizh viduthalaikku
uzhaikka vENdum.
I shall acknowledge that in our kalai vizhaa.
anban
kathir
Sundara Pandian
indeed a memorable event, and I had the pleasure of meeting
many net- friends and clarifying my views with some prolific
writers in the net. This SCT meet was hurriedly prepared
and our thanks to Meenan, Ponnambalam, Selva and Kathir for
making this meet a reality and a success.
2. We had only serious events in the entire meeting (talks on
serious topics, serious group discussions etc.) and we could
not keep the cultural events in the night as we had planned.
Because of the small turn-up for this meet, it didn't matter
really. Meenan put some video-tapes of Eezham Tamil events.
3. Bala commented about the good Eezham Tamil. Some new Tamil
words that I heard in the meet from Eezham Tamil friends are
`thiRappu' (for `key'), `paarathUramaana' (for `serious').
4. We are bringing out a revised edition of the SCT souvenir.
This contains more than 26 articles and about 160 pages.
This will also include photos of the events in the meet.
This souvenir has articles on various subjects -- articles
on science in TN, scientific Tamil are current ones, which
were discussed further in the meet. Literature, religion,
music, social issues are also covered in this souvenir.
This souvenir differs from other souvenirs in another way
also - there are no advertisements in this souvenir. We are
also planning to print some extra copies of this souvenir
and send it to major libraries in TN and some educational
institutions in TN. ( A plan first suggested by ADAMI Sree.)
We need some more sponsors and more interest from the nettors
for bringing the revised edition successfully. This souvenir
costs about 10 US dollars (with shipping) and I recommend the
nettors who like to buy this souvenir to register their name
first to Meenan Vishnu (mvi...@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca).
More later..
-=SP=-
PS 1 (to Bala): Send your article to Meenan Vishnu for the souvenir.
PS 2 (to SSP): Please compile the group discussions in the noon
session (with your proposal and the suggestions), add
it to your souvenir article and send us the revised
version.
ha...@news.delphi.com
> SCT CONVENTION 1993
Tamil newspapers, Tamil magazines, was held during the lunch time. If
>you have had an opinion that all Eelam Tamils are terrorists then you
>would realize that you were dead wrong. They are very congenial,
>sociable, and friendly people. Their Tamil is million times better
>than our Tamil (is it not Tanglish?). The music while they croon to
>you is an experience. This is the first time I met with such a large
>number of Eelam Tamils, and I am glad I did. All my prejudices, if
>any, are as I said prejudices. They are gone now!!
It is nice to be certified that we are not terrorists but good people!
Haran
S. Sankarapandi
In article <CD21F...@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> sr...@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan
K.) writes:
>In article <930908144...@cec1.wustl.edu> s...@cec1.wustl.edu
> (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>
>>3. Bala commented about the good Eezham Tamil. Some new Tamil
>> words that I heard in the meet from Eezham Tamil friends are
>> `thiRappu' (for `key'), `paarathUramaana' (for `serious').
>>
>
>derived from "thiRavukol". We still use it often at home.
>The popular word in Tamil Nadu of course is "chaavi".
> (From Urdu/Persian, I think).
>The common word in Kerala is "thaakkOl".
>
>"thirappu" means more like "opening", rather than "opening stick".
>
In many of our villages in Tirunelveli district, `thuRaval' (originally
thiRavukOl) is commonly used even today. I have also heard some people using
`thaakkOl' (originally thaazhk kOl; ref: `ottakkooththan paattukku ettuth
thaazhppaaL) in kovil patti, ettaya puram, Vilathi kulam areas.
S. Sankarapandi
Ravi 'Kity Bum' Sundaram
> >The word used by my many of our relatives is "thiRakOl",
> >derived from "thiRavukol". We still use it often at home.
> >The popular word in Tamil Nadu of course is "chaavi".
> > (From Urdu/Persian, I think).
^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >The common word in Kerala is "thaakkOl".
> >
> >"thirappu" means more like "opening", rather than "opening stick".
> >
\bt chaavi\et is from Portugese chavvE
\bt jannal\et is also from Portugese. May be Urdu/Persian too
have borrowed these words from Portugese. The surprisingly
recent origin of such a common word is very interesting.
In North India, Onion+Tomato+Potato(e:-)) is so common that they are
eaten practically in every meal. They are very popular in South
too. But all these are New World Vegetables! That is they came to
Europe after the discovery of Americas! They have acquired such a
stronghold in just 300 years. Hard to imagine what the North Indian
cusiene consisted of before these three came along.
(resisting the temptation to generalize and sermonize ...)
Ravi Sundaram
UTA
Aero
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
Ravi 'Kity Bum' Sundaram <sund...@me.me.uta.edu> wrote:
>In article <26qggg$p...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (S. Sankarapandi) writes:
>> >The word used by my many of our relatives is "thiRakOl",
>> >derived from "thiRavukol". We still use it often at home.
>> >The popular word in Tamil Nadu of course is "chaavi".
> ^^^^^^^
>> > (From Urdu/Persian, I think).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >The common word in Kerala is "thaakkOl".
>> >
>> >"thirappu" means more like "opening", rather than "opening stick".
>> >
>
> \bt chaavi\et is from Portugese chavvE
Yes, I've heard this. But there are some interesting thoughts
related to it. In tamil
\bt
chAvi \et means \bt pathar,
maNi aRRa kathir, uttuLaiyaik kuRikkum; chaavattai enRaalum
payirchchAviyaith thaan kuRikkum.
chAvaNam = kuzhAi, nALam, nANal
\et
Since most of the olden day keys had a tubular part, it was
kind of fitting. The word chAvi is also used for 'keys' used for
winding toys which have similar tubular holes. The
tamil words related to chAvi clearly show the 'hollow, tubular,
nANal etc.' senses. Although it could have been a borrowed word
it is interesting that it has tamil root sense !
> \bt jannal\et is also from Portugese. May be Urdu/Persian too
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is also interesting. While tamil words for
'jannal' are 'cALaram, palakaNi', the word jannal
could be related to tamil 'cannal' where closely
connected mesh-type window could be meant.
[ similar to tamil calli > jalli ]
There is a tamil expression ( see dictionary)
\bt
cannal pinnal = onROdu onRu nerungi pinni iruththal
\et
This appear to have close connection to 'jannal'
[..]
> (resisting the temptation to generalize and sermonize ...)
> Ravi Sundaram
> UTA
> Aero
anbudan
-Selvaa
Dorai Sitaram
>>
>> \bt chaavi\et is from Portugese chavvE
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Yes, I've heard this. But there are some interesting thoughts
>
> Since most of the olden day keys had a tubular part, it was
> kind of fitting. The word chAvi is also used for 'keys' used for
> winding toys which have similar tubular holes. The
> tamil words related to chAvi clearly show the 'hollow, tubular,
> nANal etc.' senses. Although it could have been a borrowed word
> it is interesting that it has tamil root sense !
>> \bt jannal\et is also from Portugese. May be Urdu/Persian too
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This is also interesting. While tamil words for
> 'jannal' are 'cALaram, palakaNi', the word jannal
> could be related to tamil 'cannal' where closely
> There is a tamil expression ( see dictionary)
It is interesting and unusual to hear you allow for
this, instead of implying that the folk etymology is
sufficient grounds to claim that the word is Dravidian.
Tamil abounds in deliberate, phonologically similar
coinages like teyyalar (tailor), kaiye'du (guide as in
TV Guide), pu'varasu (Portia tree). In all these
cases, a loanword is creatively altered to suggest an
alternate, native, folk etymology.
--d
--
do...@cs.rice.edu
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>It is interesting and unusual to hear you allow for
>this, instead of implying that the folk etymology is
>sufficient grounds to claim that the word is Dravidian.
>Tamil abounds in deliberate, phonologically similar
>coinages like teyyalar (tailor), kaiye'du (guide as in
thaiyaal-a damsel {very old word. n}.
thaiththal-pierce. {verb}.
Read old thamizh texts for ex: even kamban
talks about `aNNanin kaNkaL seethaiyin maarpagaththai
thaiththa". How the great sree raman's eyes pierced
the bosoms of seetha dEvi.
Do not say that English before kamban.
>TV Guide), pu'varasu (Portia tree)
kai Edu-hand book. It is not a guide.
. In all these
>cases, a loanword is creatively altered to suggest an
>alternate, native, folk etymology.
poo-flow in thamizh. arasu-king. It is a king of
flowers. Go and see a poovarsu tree.
anban
kathir
>--d
>--
>do...@cs.rice.edu
Dorai Sitaram
This is not the first time you respond with such
breathtaking irrelevance. I said that the words were
loaned in a way to suggest a certain folk etymology,
and in your "refutation" you furnish the very same folk
etymology! Oh well, go ahead, get worked up into your
usual lather of frenzy.
>anban
Doesn't look that way, the way you descended on my
followup to somebody else.
--d
--
do...@cs.rice.edu
Meenan Vishnu
>It is interesting and unusual to hear you allow for
>this, instead of implying that the folk etymology is
>sufficient grounds to claim that the word is Dravidian.
>
>Tamil abounds in deliberate, phonologically similar
>coinages like teyyalar (tailor), kaiye'du (guide as in
>TV Guide), pu'varasu (Portia tree). In all these
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>cases, a loanword is creatively altered to suggest an
>alternate, native, folk etymology.
I think \bt poovarasu \et == \bt poo + arasu \et is not a loan word.
\bt arasu \et is a fig
family of tree (Buddha attained enlightenment under one of the \bt arasa
maram \et). Since \bt poo \et in Tamil means flower and since
\bt poovarasu \et is perhaps the only arau (fig family) with a (large)
flower, I would assume \bt poovarasu \et is a Tamil word and not a loan word.
Similarly \bt kiLuvai, mudkiLuvai (muL + kiLuvai), caampal kiLuvai
\et and many other \bt kiLuvai \et are all Tamil names.
Meenan Vishnu
\bt poovarasam poo pooththaaccu poNNukku cEthiyum vaanthaaccu ... \et
Sundara Pandian
> \bt arasu \et is a fig
> family of tree (Buddha attained enlightenment under one of the \bt arasa
> maram \et).
Well said, Meenan. It is a very good observation!
Yes, indeed the Bodhi tree where Buddha attained enlightenment is a kind
of `arasa maram'. Earlier I commented on how, many principles and beliefs
of Buddhism and Jainism were absorbed into Hinduism. It is of interest to
note that the `arasa maram' which is devoted by the Buddhists is also of
spiritual and religious importance for Hindus still today. One can see
`arasa maram' in many Hindu temples in TN and `arasa maraththaradi vinaayakar'
can be seen in most of such places. I believe that this was inspired by the
Buddha statue under Bodhi tree in the early Buddhist temples in Tamil Nadu.
Namaste,
-= SP =-
M. Sundaramoorthy
'piLLai vENdum enRu makkaL arasai suRRiyadhu andhak kaalam
piLLai vENdaam enRu arasu makkaLai suRRuvadhu indhak kaalam'
- Abdul Rahman
[ note the pun in 'arasu' ]
> Namaste,
> -= SP =-
M. Sundaramoorthy
sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
Dorai Sitaram
>In article <CDCH...@rice.edu> do...@owlnet.rice.edu (Dorai Sitaram) writes:
>>
>>Tamil abounds in deliberate, phonologically similar
>>coinages like teyyalar (tailor), kaiye'du (guide as in
>>TV Guide), pu'varasu (Portia tree). In all these
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>cases, a loanword is creatively altered to suggest an
>>alternate, native, folk etymology.
>
>I think \bt poovarasu \et == \bt poo + arasu \et is not a loan word.
>\bt arasu \et is a fig
>family of tree (Buddha attained enlightenment under one of the \bt arasa
>maram \et). Since \bt poo \et in Tamil means flower and since
>\bt poovarasu \et is perhaps the only arau (fig family) with a (large)
>flower, I would assume \bt poovarasu \et is a Tamil word and not a loan word.
I hope you're not deliberately "misunderstanding" me.
When I said that words like pu'varasu suggest an
alternate, native, folk etymology, I meant precisely
breakups like pu'varasu = pu' + arasu. (If pu'varasu
couldn't be broken up into "Tamil" roots, there would
be no earthly reason for my bringing it up as an
example of this phenomenon!!)
I don't think I have been unclear. But then again,
there is a lot of tendentious etymologizing going on
that it probably seems acceptable to some nettors to
aggressively misread in order to score points in other
areas of conflict. Case in point: your recent claim
that dalit "derives from" the Tamil ta'zhttappatto'r;
at least you qualified your statement with "equivalent
to" which makes your post optionally retractable, just
in case.
Oh well...
--d
--
do...@cs.rice.edu
Ramesh Vaidhyanathan
|>
|> 'piLLai vENdum enRu makkaL arasai suRRiyadhu andhak kaalam
|> piLLai vENdaam enRu arasu makkaLai suRRuvadhu indhak kaalam'
|>
|> - Abdul Rahman
|>
|> [ note the pun in 'arasu' ]
|>
|> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
|>
There is a "solavadai" (pazhamozhi) in Tamil:
"arasa maraththai suRRi vanthu
adi vayiRRai thottup paRththaaLaam"!
-Ramesh, V.