Women in Popular Tamil Movies - III
Balaji Kannan
Can someone recall the story of Avan-aval-athu (as in the movie)
I had asked Sankarapandi to clarify his comments in his review of
the movie as I hadnt found anything demeaning to women in it..
Apparently, SS hasn't seen the movie himself and has only heard
about the story. *I* have seen the movie but owing to senility :-)
might leave a lot of loose ends, should I start recollecting it.
IMO, surrogacy is a very touchy isuue that raises a lot of ethical
-moral questions and can make life difficult for the parties
involved. The biological mother (Sripriya) and the surrogate mother
(Laxmi?) lock horns on the issue right ??
Maybe someone (Sundara Pandian or BalaSwaminathan...?) can help.
Good job SS!
cheers,
bk
S. Sankarapandi
[As I mentioned in my first posting in this series, I write this thread
based upon an analysis of the popular Tamil movies `veLLiththiraiyil
vIraangkanaikaL' by T.S.Raveendra Das in SubhamankaLaa by including the names
of some more films from my memory. Since each film has a different story, it
is difficult to categorize the movies and hence the grouping of different
movies together under one concept may not be completely correct. One more
thing, I want to remind the netters that this thread is not to have a criticism
of the Tamil movies, in their suitability as an art (I will try that under
another thread). In stead, my intention is to project how women are portrayed
in Tamil movies. Nothing else !]
So far, we have seen movies in which the women are treated negatively or
inferior_to_men. Now, let us go through some of the movies in which the women
challenged the traditional_woman role. The first Tamil movie in this category
was Kalki's `thiyaaka pUmi' (1939) directed by K.Subramaniyam. The heroine
leaves her husband due to his harassment and later when she achieves eminence,
he wants to join her saying that he has reformed. Though her parents and
relatives compel her to accept him, she ignores them and joins the freedom
movement. [Sometime in 1984-85, there was a popular movie (the name avoids me
now, I will tell when I remember) in which the husband (Rajesh) abandons his
wife (Sujatha) for appearing in a commercial documentary due to some pressure.
She decides to become an actress. When she becomes a very well known actress
her husband changes his attitude and she prefers to die as his wife at the
end.]
Then came `maathru bhUmi' (1939) in which the wife kills her husband
for his anti-national activities and `manthiri kumaari' (1950) in which the
Tamil epic `nIla kEci' (Ravi `kitty bum' Sundaram has explained the story
earlier) pushes her husband from the mountain top when he took her for the same
reason. Veenai S. Balachander's `antha naaL' (1954) presented the woman who
saves India by killing her husband when he involves in espionage activities for
the Japanese government. Kannadasan's `Sivagangaic chImai' (1959) and
K.Balachander's `kaaviyath thalaivi' (1970) and `achchamillai achchamillai'
(1984) are also examples for women killing the husbands for their anti-social
and treachery activities.
K. Balachander directed many films in which the women depart from their
husbands. `avarkaL' (1977), `thaNNIr thaNNIr' (1981) heroines threw their
`thaali' in the temple-hundi and stayed away from their husbands. His other
movies like `oru vIdu - iru vaacal' (1990) and `manathil uRuthi vENdum' (1986)
made the heroines to abandon their husbands because of their male-chauvunistic
attitudes and actions. His movie `kalyaaNa akathikaL' (1985) had a heroine who
abandons her lover because he insisted her to convert to his religion as a
pre-condition for the wedding. But the picturization and the weakness in the
story defeated the whole pupose of the movie. The same Balachander's
creations, a musician (Sivakumar) and his new_intellectual_partner (Suhasini)
ridiculed his music_illiterate wife (Sulakshana) and portrayed her in a bad
light in his movie `cindu bhairavi' (1987). Bharathi raja's `puthumaip peN'
(1985) was more revolutionary than KB's heroines. Siva Sankari - Balachander's
`47 naatkaL' and R.C.Sakthi's `ciRai'(1984) are other examples and the latter
one was already discussed in the net.
Srithar's `alaikaL' (1973), Durai's `avaLum peN thaanE' (1975),
Durai-Shoba's `paci' (1979), Sripriya's `natchaththiram' (1980), Rudraiya's
`avaL appadiththaan' (1973), Balachander's `arankERRam" (1978) and 'thapputh
thaaLankaL' (1978) are examples for heroines who lost in their life though
they attempted to fight the odds.
....To be continued.
--
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
S. Sankarapandi
In the films I mentioned in my last posting, the women challenged the
traditional_woman role and fought against the odds. They even punished their
criminal husbands with death. Though most of them did this due to their
personal reasons (mostly because the husbands were cruel towards them), but
some of them, like the heroines of `mathrubhUmi', `antha naaL', `achchamillai
achchamillai' were ready to kill their husbands for the sake of the nation,
though the husbands were not bad as `husbands'. These women chose violence to
save the country from the treacherous activities of their husband and hence it
could be welcomed.
The real `puthumaip peN' of Bharathiyar was seen only in three Tamil
movies so far. The word `real' means the character who systematically leads a
struggle for the interests of the society as a whole but fights individual
terrors, shows basic humanity and compassion whenever needed and sacrifices her
life in such a struggle. Gemini Vasan's `avvaiyaar' (1953), Komal
Swaminathan's `oru inthiyak kanavu' (1983), M.Karunanithi's `paalaivana
rojakkaL' (1986) are the only those three movies. Avvaiyar's story was quite
old and had many unrealistic and superstitious incidents, but it was quite
revolutionary if viewed in its time-period. Avvai (K.B.Sundarambal) travels
across forests and rivers to visit the kingdoms and different people, in
order to establish peace and to awaken the poor people. She voluntarily
accepts the old age, thinking that her youngish look might be an obstacle for
fulfilling her social commitment. Till the end, she tirelessly works for love,
humanity and peace.
`oru inthiyak kanavu' heroine `Anamika' was also an ideal leader who
organizes the tribal people under a single movement and fights against the
corrupt politicians and the oppression of the government. The district
collector `Surya' of `palaivana rojakkaL' leads a honest life and when she
faces resistance from the politicians and the beauracracy, she inspires and
joins a fight against them and loses her life in that struggle.
Since there is not much interest or discussion on this thread, I will
wind up this thread by identifying two recent movies which manipulate the
motifs of modernity very intelligently but reinforce the traditional role
of women (to be docile, loving and good cooks). I talked about one of them a
few months back when I posted an article about the popular Tamil magazines.
`puthu vasantham' was a very popular movie which came 2-3 years
back. It was slightly a different movie from other Tamil movies because
the relationship between a girl and boy was portrayed just as a friendship
whereas according to the general popular Tamil psychology it should be either
sister_brother or lovers_leading_marriage. In this respect, that movie
was hailed among the protaganists of modernity also.
In that movie, the heroine runs away from her house to escape from
the clutches of her guardian who wants to marry her in order to seize
her family property. She was already in love with a guy who has gone
abroad for education or business. She happens to meet a bunch of unemployed
guys who gave her asylum for a couple of days. Slowly she brings confidence in
them and motivate them to start a music group. That girl was shown to be very
educated and intelligent, leave alone her rich family background. She is good
in writing poems which eventually became hit songs in their music troupe.
This movie emphasizes a very friendly relationship between her and the
youths without any teen-age pshyche. But, the irony of the movie is that she
earns their good-will as a very docile house keeper. All those jobless guys
treat her as a good friend (no romatic love between them unlike other movies)
only when she has shown her affection towards them by cooking food for them
and caring them with her `traditional' woman character.
A few weeks back, I saw a Rajini movie called `mannan' (1992) which is
another absolute nonsense. Vijayashanthi is a very educated and intelligent
woman who successfully runs her father's company. On the other hand she has
been shown as very stubborn, arrogant and sometimes inhuman too. Because of
her female-ego she does not respect men at all. On the other hand, our hero
Rajini, though speaks out his occasional male-chauvunistic views, is very
human and compassionate towards everybody. He joins Vijayshanti's company as
a mechanic but becomes very popular among the employees and challenges
Vijayashanthi. The female-egoist heroine wants to take revenge on him and
hence marries him. After this, she falls into her own traps because of her
short-temperedness and short-sightedness. Finally Rajini saves her and she
realizes her mistake and becomes a docile-wife. In contrast to her character,
Rajini's ex-lover, Kushboo, is shown as a very affectionate and caring woman
who sacrificed her love for Rajini and Vijayashanthi. [When I watched this
movie, I was reminded of Jeyalalitha. It is like saying, Jeyalalitha is bad
and hence a woman should never become the chief-minister. On a different note,
I heard that this movie was about to be banned at the request of Jeya but
Rajini fans saved it]
This type of movies build the modern woman very carefully so that they
could be easily ridden by the women viewers themselves. Women have to be aware
of these movies, because they solve the problems through a return to tradition,
which is in effect a silent acceptance of the *status quo* through
`adjustment'.
*END*
--
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
sund...@me.uta.edu
< The last instalment of the series deleted>
> Since there is not much interest or discussion on this thread, I will
> wind up this thread by identifying two recent movies which manipulate the
> *END*
> --
> S. Sankarapandi
> ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Thanks for the postings.
Ravi Sundaram
UTA
Aero
Asokan S.
S. Sankarapandi (ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: In that movie, the heroine runs away from her house to escape from
: the clutches of her guardian who wants to marry her in order to seize
: her family property. She was already in love with a guy who has gone
: abroad for education or business. She happens to meet a bunch of unemployed
: guys who gave her asylum for a couple of days. Slowly she brings confidence in
: them and motivate them to start a music group. That girl was shown to be very
: educated and intelligent, leave alone her rich family background. She is good
: in writing poems which eventually became hit songs in their music troupe.
: This movie emphasizes a very friendly relationship between her and the
: youths without any teen-age pshyche. But, the irony of the movie is that she
: earns their good-will as a very docile house keeper. All those jobless guys
: treat her as a good friend (no romatic love between them unlike other movies)
: only when she has shown her affection towards them by cooking food for them
: and caring them with her `traditional' woman character.
While I agree with you that our movies tend to stereotype the female
characters, I doubt if 'puthu vasantham' can be accused of doing that.
To me, the fact that she is portrayed as an intelligent woman, capable
of motivating 4 jobless youths (this by itself is no small achievement)
is a clean break from the stereotype of the past. She also writes songs
which actually turn these guys into a successful music group. Add to
this the fact that she ditches her boy-friend because of his unruly
and chauvanistic attitude, and you have what is very close to a
"puthumai peN". If your only criticizm of her character is her cooking
and cleaning the house, then IMO it is not valid. I think it is
realistic to show the woman as the clean and responsible one in that
situation with four unemployed bachelors. (I can relate to that
situation because I have lived in such a "bachelor's den" once upon a
time and I know how (un)clean we used to keep it, and as for cooking -
it never happened !!) In this case, I would rather look at her
inclination to cook and clean as a positive aspect of her character
than a negative one.
As you can see, I kind of liked that movie. Also, if my memory serves
me right, that was the first effort of the director. BTW, who wrote the
story ?
asokan.
P.S. to Sankarapandi:
It is unfortunate that you have decided to stop writing in this
thread. I enjoyed it very much, thank you.
Ramesh Vaidhyanathan
I also felt the same way about the heroine's charector in the movie.
The director (and I think the story is also his) is "Vikraman" and
it was his first effort. I do not know if he haad any other movies
after "Puthu Vasantham".
-Ramesh, V.
Chandramouli Venkatesh - CS
>
>
>
>another absolute nonsense. Vijayashanthi is a very educated and intelligent
>woman who successfully runs her father's company. On the other hand she has
>been shown as very stubborn, arrogant and sometimes inhuman too. Because of
>her female-ego she does not respect men at all. On the other hand, our hero
>Rajini, though speaks out his occasional male-chauvunistic views, is very
>human and compassionate towards everybody. He joins Vijayshanti's company as
>a mechanic but becomes very popular among the employees and challenges
>Vijayashanthi. The female-egoist heroine wants to take revenge on him and
>hence marries him. After this, she falls into her own traps because of her
>short-temperedness and short-sightedness. Finally Rajini saves her and she
>realizes her mistake and becomes a docile-wife. In contrast to her character,
>Rajini's ex-lover, Kushboo, is shown as a very affectionate and caring woman
>who sacrificed her love for Rajini and Vijayashanthi. [When I watched this
>movie, I was reminded of Jeyalalitha. It is like saying, Jeyalalitha is bad
>and hence a woman should never become the chief-minister. On a different note,
>I heard that this movie was about to be banned at the request of Jeya but
>Rajini fans saved it]
>
It doesn't stop there !! Vijayashanthi makes her seceratary Kushboo the
CEO of her company [what total bull ....] !!!
Another movie I saw recently was Bhagyaraj's "rAsukutti" !! If you haven't
seen it then please don't ever make the mistake of seeing it !! 150 minutes
of total nonsense ! The heroine Ishwarya is obviously an educated, city
bred , beautiful and of course an "arrogant" girl who finally gives up
all her ambition etc for the "true love" of Bhagyaraj !!!
Another thing I have noticed in quite a no of movies when I was a kid
"the heroine removes the hubby's shoes after he returns from office".
Thank god, these days such stupidities have vanished [or atleast I
haven't seen any of late] !!
And the way the "thAli" is portrayed as some magical power ...
It makes u wonder whether our movie marriages are based on respect for
thAli or mutual respect for one another !!
Read this in Star Dust or something long back. Shabana Azmi once refused
to do a scene wherein she had to carry the husband's sandals on her head !
It's high time the heroines playing these roles started voicing their
opinions for if they don't play such dumb roles these stereotypes would
vanish !!
One more related point:
Very early movies always projected CITY BREDS as BAD
Later it shifted to projecting RICH as bad and POOR as good
and these days looks like such rigid stereotypes are no
longer valid !!
CV
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
> It is unfortunate that you have decided to stop writing in this
> thread. I enjoyed it very much, thank you.
>
I second that !
Gayathri.
--
-----------------------------------------
email address :- gaya...@ecn.purdue.edu
Never trouble trouble till trouble troubles you !
S. Ragupathi (MMC)
I too enjoyed the work. Very good work and I appreciate Sankarapandi for this.
Ragu
Srinivasan Gopalaswamy
rampant in India. It is evident especially after seeing USA! On a related
note, I recently read some tamil magazines that reported new born girls
being murdered by their own parents in some rural areas of TN. It is a
shame! The excuses given by these "parents" were mainly dowry and such
financial things, and these included even well to do families! It was heart
rending to read the article.
Only recently has the TN Govt. introduced severe punishments for these
"parents". They also have a scheme of placing cradles near rural hospitals
so that these people who dont want their girl children can put them in these
cradles and leave!
Until these attrocities are removed, we have no business being proud of our
ancient Indian culture!
Srini
Asokan S.
: Another movie I saw recently was Bhagyaraj's "rAsukutti" !! If you haven't
: seen it then please don't ever make the mistake of seeing it !! 150 minutes
: of total nonsense ! The heroine Ishwarya is obviously an educated, city
: bred , beautiful and of course an "arrogant" girl who finally gives up
: all her ambition etc for the "true love" of Bhagyaraj !!!
Hang on for a second! I thought that was "enga cinna raasa" which is
about 5 to 6 years old. Looks like Bhagyaraj has also fallen prey to
the chronic problem of movie makers - lack of material. In "enga cinna
raasa", although it was not the main storyline, Radha, a well educated
girl, is driven by circumstances to marry Bhagyaraj who is illiterate.
(If you go by the number of movie marriages that happen because of
strange circumstances, you would start believing that there are no
normal marriages in our country. As an aside, one of my friends used
to quip, if we go by the number of "yaadon ki bharaat" compatible
Hindi movies that were made in the late 70s and early 80s, every one
in Bombay must have been orphaned at a tender age and they must be
going around the town singing their family songs in the hope of
finding their families.)
Coming back to our discussion:
She accepts him as her husband whole-heartedly and tries to educate
him and what not. I guess, the difference in this movie was that Radha
has not been portrayed as arrogant.
: It makes u wonder whether our movie marriages are based on respect for
---------------
: thAli or mutual respect for one another !!
What do you mean "movie marriages" ? You will be surprised if you were
to go around in our country conducting a survey on what our womenfolk
think of the "thaali"!!
: CV
asokan.
S. Sankarapandi
In article <C7CAH...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> vaid...@cn.ecn.purdue.edu writes:
>In article <1993May20.1...@isc-br.isc-br.com>, asokan@njord (Asokan S.
) writes:
>|>
>|> While I agree with you that our movies tend to stereotype the female
>|> characters, I doubt if 'puthu vasantham' can be accused of doing that.
>|> To me, the fact that she is portrayed as an intelligent woman, capable
>|> of motivating 4 jobless youths (this by itself is no small achievement)
>|> is a clean break from the stereotype of the past. She also writes songs
>|> which actually turn these guys into a successful music group. Add to
>|> this the fact that she ditches her boy-friend because of his unruly
>|> and chauvanistic attitude, and you have what is very close to a
>|> "puthumai peN". If your only criticizm of her character is her cooking
>|> and cleaning the house, then IMO it is not valid. I think it is
>|> realistic to show the woman as the clean and responsible one in that
>|> situation with four unemployed bachelors. (I can relate to that
>|> situation because I have lived in such a "bachelor's den" once upon a
>|> time and I know how (un)clean we used to keep it, and as for cooking -
>|> it never happened !!) In this case, I would rather look at her
>|> inclination to cook and clean as a positive aspect of her character
>|> than a negative one.
>|>
>|> As you can see, I kind of liked that movie. Also, if my memory serves
>|> me right, that was the first effort of the director. BTW, who wrote the
>|> story ?
>|>
>|> asokan.
>|>
>|> P.S. to Sankarapandi:
>|> It is unfortunate that you have decided to stop writing in this
>|> thread. I enjoyed it very much, thank you.
>|>
>
>I also felt the same way about the heroine's charector in the movie.
>The director (and I think the story is also his) is "Vikraman" and
>it was his first effort. I do not know if he haad any other movies
>after "Puthu Vasantham".
>
>-Ramesh, V.
As I mentioned in my posting, I agree that it was a different movie from
the usual films. You say that the potrayal of the woman in that situation is
realistic. Then, I can agree with you logically. Then we can dig at how
realistic the whole movie was made. How about a girl who escaped from her
house taking asylum with some unknown bachelor guys. It does not look
realistic for me. I dont think that any girl, that too somebody raised from
elite family trusts and asks for asylum with some bachelor guys. Our
cinema has rarely reached realism (I can compare Balu Mahendra's `veedu' (1988)
for a realistic movie).
So when the story is just the fabrication of whatever the director assumes
to sell in the market, there is hardly any appreciation for realism. If
the whole movie is realistic, I would buy this too.
Now, to point out more specificaly in that movie, the heroine `Chitra'
cooks and provides food for those four guys when they come in the evening.
They treat her badly because the food is not tasty and make her cry for that.
They even angrily ask her to leave them immediately. She was with them only
for a day and they all agreed that she was going to leave them in one or two
days when she finds her place. In that case she is still a stranger there and
they also do not know anything about her. Was it assumed that she had to cook
and provide them good food. When the food is not tasty, how would we bahave to
a girl who is not meant for doing that job. We would rather want to be polite.
Eg. in `antha Ezhu naatlaL', when Rajesh knows that Ambika is going to leave as
soon as she finds here ex-lover, he treats her politely though she is known
as his wife for the outside world. That is what normally most of the decent
people do. But our heroes who are supposed to be very decent presume
that she should cook a good food fo them. So this does not look realistically
also.
S. Sankarapandi
PS: I thank all the netters who appreciated this series.
PPS: We can also discuss Tamil movies in a different angle like about their
artistic values, realism etc. But I hardly any Tamil movies falling under this
category except very few movies like `thaNNEr thaNNEr' , `vIdu' etc. May be
Malayalam movies can be compared with Tamil movies because Malayalam cine world
(including the commercial ones) is much ahead of any other Indian film world in
its standards. Tamil films are technically better than Malayalam but
miserably fail in standards compared to Malayalam films.
--
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Asokan S.
: In article <C7CAH...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> vaid...@cn.ecn.purdue.edu writes:
: >In article <1993May20.1...@isc-br.isc-br.com>, asokan@njord (Asokan S.
: ) writes:
: >|>
: >|> While I agree with you that our movies tend to stereotype the female
: >|> characters, I doubt if 'puthu vasantham' can be accused of doing that.
my first posting in this thread deleted.
: >|>
: >|> As you can see, I kind of liked that movie. Also, if my memory serves
: >|> me right, that was the first effort of the director. BTW, who wrote the
: >|> story ?
: >|>
: >|> asokan.
: >|>
: >
: >I also felt the same way about the heroine's charector in the movie.
: >The director (and I think the story is also his) is "Vikraman" and
: >it was his first effort. I do not know if he haad any other movies
: >after "Puthu Vasantham".
: >
: >-Ramesh, V.
: As I mentioned in my posting, I agree that it was a different movie from
: the usual films. You say that the potrayal of the woman in that situation is
: realistic.
That's precisely what I meant. The phrase "in that situation"
is the key one. Not having mentioned that in my post is a bummer. I
agree completely, that with respect to realism on the whole, the movie
is not even close. But what I was meaning to convey was that for a
first effort, the movie was very bold. It is not often that we see
movies in which 4 unemployed bachelors having a platonic relationship
with a young and beautiful woman.
Also, the essence of my argument was, if it is alright to portray
the woman as the one who brings order and discipline into the lives
of 4 seemingly irresponsible men, how is the aspect of cooking/cleaning
different. IMO cooking/cleaning is also bringing order into their
lives. (Before some of the womenfolk out there take offense to what
I am saying here, let me add, I am not saying that it is the duty of the
woman to cook and clean - we are merely discussing the personification
of the character in the movie). I feel, it is incorrect to assume that
a woman is the victim of male-chauvanism, just because she cooks/cleans.
: Now, to point out more specificaly in that movie, the heroine `Chitra'
: cooks and provides food for those four guys when they come in the evening.
: They treat her badly because the food is not tasty and make her cry for that.
: They even angrily ask her to leave them immediately. She was with them only
: for a day and they all agreed that she was going to leave them in one or two
: days when she finds her place. In that case she is still a stranger there and
: they also do not know anything about her. Was it assumed that she had to cook
: and provide them good food. When the food is not tasty, how would we bahave to
: a girl who is not meant for doing that job. We would rather want to be polite.
Now you really have me. I cannot argue with conviction that the
above incidents portrayed in the movie do not stink of chauvanism.
In fact, ill-treating a person just because she is a stranger and
will be gone soon, is puerile to say the least.
The fact is, I do not remember the above sequences in the movie.
Hence my statement, "puthu vasantham cannot be accused of stereo-
typing". I take it back.
: Eg.in `antha Ezhu naatlaL', when Rajesh knows that Ambika is going to leave as
: soon as she finds here ex-lover, he treats her politely though she is known
: as his wife for the outside world. That is what normally most of the decent
: people do. But our heroes who are supposed to be very decent presume
: that she should cook a good food fo them. So this does not look realistically
: also.
Rajesh's character in 'antha 7 natkaL' is quite a mature one and no
doubt, worthy of emulation.
While on the thread of male-chauvanism, here's what I thought of
'antha 7 natkaL'. Although this movie was quite interesting
and kept me guessing till the end, it was a prime example of male-
chauvanism. Why should the character of Ambika (Vasanthi, I think)
marry or continue to live with the Doctor? Just because her parents
forced her into a marriage, or because the character of Bhagyaraj
finds it fit to admonish her for hoping to join him (her true love),
she doesn't have to sacrifice her dreams. (A feeble attempt is made
in the movie to substantiate the stereotype, by showing flashbacks
of her tending to Rajesh's child, etc.) But of course, the
significance of the 'thaali' is not be questioned. This is what
I call stereotypical and chauvanistic.
Also, another interesting aspect of our Thamizh cinema I noticed,
was the liberal sprinkling of chauvanistic lyrics in the songs.
One that springs to the mind immediately, is "Unga ponnaana
kaigaL punnaagalaama .... " in 'kAthalikka neram illai'. Would
be interesting to find out what we (the valai) think of that.
asokan.
S. Sankarapandi
In article <1993May24....@isc-br.isc-br.com> asokan@njord (Asokan S.) w
rites:
> Rajesh's character in 'antha 7 natkaL' is quite a mature one and no
> doubt, worthy of emulation.
>
> While on the thread of male-chauvanism, here's what I thought of
> 'antha 7 natkaL'. Although this movie was quite interesting
> and kept me guessing till the end, it was a prime example of male-
> chauvanism. Why should the character of Ambika (Vasanthi, I think)
> marry or continue to live with the Doctor? Just because her parents
> forced her into a marriage, or because the character of Bhagyaraj
> finds it fit to admonish her for hoping to join him (her true love),
> she doesn't have to sacrifice her dreams. (A feeble attempt is made
> in the movie to substantiate the stereotype, by showing flashbacks
> of her tending to Rajesh's child, etc.) But of course, the
> significance of the 'thaali' is not be questioned. This is what
> I call stereotypical and chauvanistic.
>
I already mentioned about `antha 7 naatkaL' in my posting and I expressed
the same opinion as yours. I just brought up the character of Rajesh here for
comparison.
>
> Also, another interesting aspect of our Thamizh cinema I noticed,
> was the liberal sprinkling of chauvanistic lyrics in the songs.
> One that springs to the mind immediately, is "Unga ponnaana
> kaigaL punnaagalaama .... " in 'kAthalikka neram illai'. Would
> be interesting to find out what we (the valai) think of that.
>
> asokan.
>
Already Ragupathy asked me to write a similar thread on Kannadasan's
songs. I think almost most of the cine-songs are totally nonsense in content
though they are melodious to the ear with rhyming Tamil words. I think it is
better to call them as cine-lyrics and the writers as lyricists. It will be a
gross mistake calling them poets because they do not contribute anything to the
tamil literature in the form of poetry.
--
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Christopher Nesakumar
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
> Also, another interesting aspect of our Thamizh cinema I noticed,
> was the liberal sprinkling of chauvanistic lyrics in the songs.
> One that springs to the mind immediately, is "Unga ponnaana
> kaigaL punnaagalaama .... " in 'kAthalikka neram illai'. Would
> be interesting to find out what we (the valai) think of that.
Oh, there are a lot of such lyrics - a lot, a lot....Hard to count
(seriously). There are songs in which the city-bred (and therefore :-)
necessarily arrogant (nice logic) ) or whatever women teasing the hero
with some stupid song and the hero using the same song to tease them
later (e.g : some MGR-Lata movie and also 'Sakala kala vallavan' which
had lyrics like 'muttaiyidum pettaigaLA muttuvadhu' which make one
sick). Also, dialogues referring to women as 'potta puLLa', 'pottacchi'
whatever. I remember a lot of lyrics which are not just male
chauvinistic but downright indecent. Borrowed a cassette from a friend
recently and was horrified to hear the lines 'aduppangaraiya vittuputtu
padikka vandheengaLa, ippdi araikuraiya thuNiya pOttu nadikka vandheengaLa'
in one of the songs - even feel bad to quote such things, but such is the
sad state of many Tamil songs. All this is plain indecency - not just male
chauvinism. 'ponnAna kaigaL puNNAgalAmA' seems so much better in comparison
and there's also the excuse that the movie is at least 20 yrs old. The songs
I mentioned were recorded around the time when India started her supposed
march into the 21st century (quoting a famous speech by RG on this march) !
As far as Tamil songs are concerned there's been this disturbing trend in
that there are an increasing # of songs with utter lack of talent as far as
lyrics go. Where has all the poetry gone ?
[Of course, there are nice songs too, but *many* songs have trashy lyrics
- hate to use the word 'lyrics' for these]
>
> asokan.
Prabhukumar Ganapathy (PK)
>In article <1993May24....@isc-br.isc-br.com>, asokan@njord (Asokan S.) writes:
>> Also, another interesting aspect of our Thamizh cinema I noticed,
>> was the liberal sprinkling of chauvanistic lyrics in the songs.
>> One that springs to the mind immediately, is "Unga ponnaana
>> kaigaL punnaagalaama .... " in 'kAthalikka neram illai'. Would
>> be interesting to find out what we (the valai) think of that.
>
>>
>
>Gayathri.
>--
Here I want to tell something. These songs should be seen
only in the context. If that description suits the heroine
then I don't see any problem. For example there are lot of
songs which conveys something bad about men also. I accept
that there are more such songs about women than men but
that is again because of the story line.
To quote two songs that comes to mind quickly (to be
impartial one each for each sex)
Song : kadavuL manidhanaagap piRakka vEndum - avan
kaadhalitthu vEdhanaiyil vaada vEndum
Lines :
avanai azhaitthu vandhu aasaiyil midhakkavittu
aadadaa aadu enRu aada vaitthu paartthiduvEn
paduvaan, thuditthiduvaan pattadhE pOdhumenbaaan
paaviavan peN kulatthai padaikkaamal niRutthi vaippaan
I think nobody can be more harsh than this.
The other song
This is a chandhra Babu song which generalizes men as people
who are not sincere to their lovers. I am not getting all the
lines here - may be I will type it in full later
the girl describes the guy in love
peNgaL aadaiyinai azhagu seyyum pOdum
adhai aasai yena pinnaalE oodum
indha aadavarin uLLam thinam maaRum
ivar kaadhalilE perumai enna vaazhum
One of the lines is even more harsh
thORRam kaalvaasi paitthiyam pOl thOnRum.
In fact if one sits and thinks they can quote so many lines
which generalizes something on one sex. But no point in keep
talking about that unless we boycott these views and people
who has these views totally.
I always wanted to write something on this thread. But I
am not finding time. I have some "hypothetical situations"
and some doubts on how in general girls (alteast Indian
girls) will react to those situations. May be I should
post them on the net and see if any one responds. I will
do that very soon.
PK
sund...@me.uta.edu
< PK mentions two mal bashing songs >
Both the songs mentioned by PK are of devadaas type songs.
Failed-love- hit-the-bottle-blame-the-world-bash-males-too.
But on rare occasions one sees good lines too. Example:
avaL appadiththaan (song: panneer pushpaNGaLE ...)
...
paanchaali vaazhNDtha | There is no one to
parithaapa vaazhvai | appreciate the miserable life
paaraatta yaarumilai | of Drowpathy (paanchaali)
palapErai chErNDtha | I have heard people praising
parandaaman thannin | Krishna, who lived with many
pukazh paada kEttathuNdu |
niyaayangalO poduvaanadu | Justice must be common
puriyaamal pOnadu | never understood
...
And if one strains to catch the lines admist the din of music
one finds rare surprsing dicoveries.
Movie: mouna raagam Song: oops! dharma sandhEgam (rEvati in rain...)
...
naam pENNaanadu | Did we become women
kalyaaNam thEdavaa? | just to get married?
Or ponnaaLan vandu | To be garlended by
poomaalai soodava? | a golden groom?
En ammadiyo | Why, in my mother's name,
pEN paarkkum naatakam? | the farce of bride-seeing?
yaar vandaalenna | Whoever comes it is concluded
theervaana jaathakam | in my horoscope!
Another maNi ratnam movie has the following lines in a song
portraying teenagers frolicking in a college.
movie: idayak kOvil song: oorOramaa aaththuppakkam thennandOppu
...
peN paarkkap poyE | Bargain hunting
pErangal pEsum | in the name of seeing-the-bride
aaN varkkam angEthu? | is not part of their [birds'] males
...
Most of the songs that praise women are in the form of praising
mother or sister. (Of course sister is always YOUNGER sister, innocent
to be protected by our great hero.)
But all this is anecdotal. Statistically instances of female
bashing far out numbers male bashing. And stressing equality is
extremely rare.
Ravi Sundaram
UTA
Aero
______________________________________________________________________
Asokan S.
: avaL appadiththaan (song: panneer pushpaNGaLE ...)
: ...
: paanchaali vaazhNDtha | There is no one to
: parithaapa vaazhvai | appreciate the miserable life
: paaraatta yaarumilai | of Drowpathy (paanchaali)
: palapErai chErNDtha | I have heard people praising
: parandaaman thannin | Krishna, who lived with many
: pukazh paada kEttathuNdu |
: niyaayangalO poduvaanadu | Justice must be common
: puriyaamal pOnadu | never understood
The above song, as you say in the latter part of your article, is
more of an exception than the rule. The significance of the above
song is lost on most of our movie-going people. For example, if you
were to stop an average movie buff in the age group of 15 to 25,on the
road in Madras and ask the person to compare
the above song from panneer pushpangaL to the one Gayathri talked
about in another article - to quote "adupangaraiye vittuputtu
padika vantheengaLa, ara koraiya thunia pottu nadika vantheengaLa"
I would say the latter would be remembered in more cases than otherwise.
If you were to watch one of these movies in a theatre, you will be
suprised by the kind of response it gets from the audience. Sexist
remarks, and in many cases, downright indecent dialogues, especially
those with a seemingly harmless meaning on the outset and a totally
different interpretation for the otherwise oriented, are almost a
must for a particular class of movies. The unfortunate truth is,
some of the more talented directors like Bhagyaraj, also tend to use
these titillating sequences in their movies to keep the audiences's
attention. I wouldn't classify myself as a prude, and neither do I
object to the portrayal of sexual intimacy in movies, but IMO, indecency
can be avoided in movies without loss of rating (revenue).
This prevalent level of accepted indecency in our movies seems to
be telling our young male audiences (the age group 15 to 25) that it is
alright to treat women in the fashion portrayed in the movies.
Even more dangerous is the mindset these movies are imposing on our
young female audiences, who come away from the theatres thinking that this
kind of treatment is to be expected and endured from our male
dominated society.
Another interesting observation is the way the comedy sequences in
Thamizh movies seem to have evolved (or deteriorated). Starting with
SuruLi Rajan, the essence of the comedy track in our movies has been
to titillate. Janakaraj and Gounda Mani are a couple of others that
come to mind. This is not say that they are incapable comedians, but
that they tend to use such methods more than the others. While on
the subject of comedy, how do the nettors rate the present day cine-
comedy against the pre 1980 movies.
As this has turned out longer than I intended, more on comedy
movies of yesteryears later.
asokan.
S. Sankarapandi
In article <1993May26.1...@isc-br.isc-br.com> asokan@njord (Asokan S.)
writes:
(Rest of Asokan's postings is deleted. I agree with him fully.)
> If you were to watch one of these movies in a theatre, you will be
> suprised by the kind of response it gets from the audience. Sexist
> remarks, and in many cases, downright indecent dialogues, especially
> those with a seemingly harmless meaning on the outset and a totally
> different interpretation for the otherwise oriented, are almost a
> must for a particular class of movies.
> This prevalent level of accepted indecency in our movies seems to
> be telling our young male audiences (the age group 15 to 25) that it is
> alright to treat women in the fashion portrayed in the movies.
> Even more dangerous is the mindset these movies are imposing on our
> young female audiences, who come away from the theatres thinking that this
> kind of treatment is to be expected and endured from our male
> dominated society.
>
In 1990, Mother Teresa Women's university conducted a survey of opinions
regarding the status of women. This was quoted by Dr.T.Kamali of MTWU in her
essay "Tamil prose and women's rights" published by the NY Tamil Sangam
Souvenir.
From her essay (translated from Tamil)
--------------------------------------
MTWU conducted a survey in which the responses were received for the
following two questions:
1. When you think of `women" in general, what feeling does strike your
mind ?
The responses were,
a) Motherhood, 83 %
b) Divinity, 6 %
c) Kindness 8 %
and
d) beauty 3 %
2. What is the supreme characteristic of women ?
The responses were,
a) Sacrifice, 41 %
b) love, 29 %
c) Shyness, 16 %
and
d) grace, 14 %
Though the popular trend is to portray woman as an atractive object in
movies and commercials and treat her like a consumer good in marriages etc.,
nobody wants to mention it here. This shows the hypocrisy of our society.
------------------
I personally dont agree conducting such a survey because that itself
suggests a separate treatment for women. But in the context of social studies,
such an academic exercise may be useful, provided the responses reflect the
real status of women.
--
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Soumya X. Viswanathan
> This prevalent level of accepted indecency in our movies seems to
> be telling our young male audiences (the age group 15 to 25) that it is
>
> alright to treat women in the fashion portrayed in the movies.
> Even more dangerous is the mindset these movies are imposing on our
> young female audiences, who come away from the theatres thinking that this
> kind of treatment is to be expected and endured from our male
> dominated society.
There is a certain degree of `coolness' (i.e the attitude) associated
with eve-tesing. It seems like the thing to do in colleges. While some
of it may be in fun, some of such `teasing' does cross the limit. Even
if a girl were to stand up to any shabby treatment, rather than
understanding her objections, there is a good chance that she will be
further maligned. It is true that a lot of girls feel it is better to
keep quiet than face up to such treatment.
>
> Another interesting observation is the way the comedy sequences in
> Thamizh movies seem to have evolved (or deteriorated). Starting with
> SuruLi Rajan, the essence of the comedy track in our movies has been
> to titillate. Janakaraj and Gounda Mani are a couple of others that
> come to mind. This is not say that they are incapable comedians, but
> that they tend to use such methods more than the others. While on
> the subject of comedy, how do the nettors rate the present day cine-
> comedy against the pre 1980 movies.
>
> asokan.
>
I totally agree that the comedy situation has deteriorated. It has
become tasteless and consequently not-funny. For example the comedy
routines in `Edhayethai Thirudathai' (by Manirathnam) were gaudy and
unnecessary. But I must admit some of the comedy scenes like ones in
`Apoorva Sagodharargal' (I hope that is right) by Janakraj and his
assistant `Sammadham' (I think) were really funny.
However, nothing compared to Nagesh in those movies of yore.....
Soumya
T.C.A. Venkatesan
Ganapathy (PK)) says:
>>In article <1993May24....@isc-br.isc-br.com>, asokan@njord (Asokan
>S.)
>writes:
>> Also, another interesting aspect of our Thamizh cinema I noticed,
>> was the liberal sprinkling of chauvanistic lyrics in the songs.
>> One that springs to the mind immediately, is "Unga ponnaana
>> kaigaL punnaagalaama .... " in 'kAthalikka neram illai'. Would
>> be interesting to find out what we (the valai) think of that.
>>
>> asokan.
>
> only in the context. If that description suits the heroine
> then I don't see any problem.
>
>
Anyone remember the song "peNgalai nambaathE kaNgalE ....." - I
think it was from the movie `thookuth thookki'. The lyrics are
really sick and stupid in this song.
Even if the hero or whoever had something against some woman, it
does not justify a song like this.
To top it all, this song is in a cassette that I have which is
titled "The greatest hits of T.M.S.".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hmmm, makes one wonder!!!!!
Venky
*************************************************************************
T.C.A. Venkatesan Bitnet : IO92395@maine
Dept. of Physics & Astronomy Internet: ve...@gandalf.umcs.maine.edu
University of Maine
Orono, ME 04469 Phone : (207) 581-1022
"the child is grown, the dream is gone"
- Pink Floyd
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
My comments :
I think that as far as attractive object, consumer goods in
marriages etc goes, like Asokan said (though in a different context) the
mindset of people is like that. Most people simply seem to take it for
granted that that's the way women are to be treated. As far as marriages
are concerned, beauty generally seems to be the *most important* or
desired quality in a woman and this is why the farce of 'seeing the girl'
(peN pArkkum padalam) has been going on for ages - hence, woman in movies
are portrayed as attractive objects - this also goes to prove the 'consumer
goods' part (though of course, things are changing somewhat now) in that
if the goods are attractive, OK (then again, this is changing, but things
like dowry are still prevalent and in several communities, girl children
are regarded as liabilities). If somebody has a *mindset* like that, he/she
isn't even conscious of these facts (just takes them for granted) and hence
thinks of other things while making the choices. Hence the above choices IMO,
don't necessarily show hypocrisy. It is the *mindset* that needs changing
by bringing in more awareness.
Also, the fact that a majority chose 'motherhood' and 'sacrifice' also
seems to reflect the mindset of people in some sense, in that women are
expected to be selfless at least most of the time, putting other people's
wishes above their own. These two characteristics have been literally
'set' into the minds of people by literature, movies, relegion (though
I agree that the characteristics by themselves are OK in an individual,
if you substitute 'parenthood' for 'motherhood' though I may not rank them
as the most desirable). I wonder if the survey had been about men, how
many would've chosen 'fatherhood' and 'sacrifice'.
> I personally dont agree conducting such a survey because that itself
> suggests a separate treatment for women. But in the context of social studies,
There *is* a separate treatment for women. But I agree that the survey in
itself seems stupid.
> such an academic exercise may be useful, provided the responses reflect the
> real status of women.
> --
> S. Sankarapandi
> ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Gayathri.
--
A truly wise (wo)man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
The studies show otherwise.
In Dravidian marriages beauty is not the main factor.
How do you define beauty, "agaththin azhagaa
mugaththin azhaga". A lot of effort is done
in the arranged marriages to match the couple
with more than one criteria. [guNam etc]
Our marriage
system and our society from a western woman's
view can be found in "Love in a thamizh family"
It is a thesis submitted to PhD in U of Cal,
Berkeley. It is available in the library.
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
> In <C7p0y...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> gaya...@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Gayathri Krishnamurthy) writes:
Most of Sankarapandi's article deleted to save bw. The following (enclosed
within lines) are excerpts from a survey by some organization (forgot name)
used by Sankarapandi in his article
------------
I meant "mugaththin azhagu". IMO, in the general case of arranged marriages,
it is true, as you said, that guNam is considered - but whatever is known
of the guNam is mostly hearsay (through enquiries) and even these would be of
very general nature - like the woman is mild-mannered, didn't go out with a
lot of men :-) etc etc. Nothing is known as to whether the couple would be
compatible or whether the man & woman would really like and respect
one another once they get to know each other well (which they do only after
marriage. They don't even talk to each other much before that - and of course,
this is changing in that more and more people are going for long engagements
or have some other way of getting to know one another - but this, again is
mostly in the cities). The final test seems in most cases to be the 'peN
pArkkum padalam' where the man sees the woman and that's it (maybe talks
to her for say, half an hour in private - even this seems to be a city trend).
So the final judgement is made on the beauty (without him knowing about her
very much and vice versa).
OK, lets grant that there is some woman Ms.X with excellent guNam (how do you
define this ? pretty relative, I think) etc and lets say she goes in for
an arranged marriage. In many cases if X is not goodlooking, the parents
are worried about finding a groom for her (this is not so for men generally
speaking - or rather, it's less difficult for a man) and in several cases,
if the woman isn't goodlooking, the dowry goes up even if the man himself
may not be goodlooking. This is what I meant. Not that beauty is the sole
criterion but it tilts the balance quite a lot and seems like the main
criterion.
> Our marriage
> system and our society from a western woman's
> view can be found in "Love in a thamizh family"
> It is a thesis submitted to PhD in U of Cal,
> Berkeley. It is available in the library.
>
Gayathri.
--
A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn.
Balaji Kannan
Grandparental guidance advised :-)
Also Reader discretion suggestsed. [For Liberal Eyes only]
I wanted to respond to some articles on this thread but got waylaid
:-) by the more serious and absorbing SL Tamil issue ... Anyways,
let me say this before I forget....
It is not just the songs but some of the titles of our movies are
"vulgar" and "sexist". One that comes to my mind readily is
"Raamaayi Vayasukku Vandhuttaa"
(Raamaayi attains/reaches Puberty)
Wonder how the Censor Board passed this one considering the fact that
the Tamil populace is dead conservative on certain issues... Being a
very curious chap, I always wanted to see this movie but knew that my
parents would have caught me by the neck and tossed me into the streets
had I sought their permission. [*After* the title created such a furore
my curiosity was kindled. Here, we are talking of SuperParents :-) who
didn't let me watch "Thappu Thaalangal" and "Qurbani" among many others.
Now, I feel like saying "Gotcha !" to them :-) for invariably, I decide
whether a movie is "worth" watching *after* watching it once]
Incidentally, I learnt that there was nothing much for the curious cum
evil minds in this movie and so a Bhagyaraj movie is something I still
consider the best bet for a curious cum naughty cum devilish young mind
like mine :-)
cheers,
bk
Venkat Taramangalam
I recently saw an old movie "GulAEbagAvali".
Any body remember this movie.
In that movie, "Puratchi Thalaivar" MGR goes after a rare flower for a cure.
He comes across a country ruled by a women. In this country, the roles
of men and women are reversed i.,e women go to work and men stay home
and take care of house hold chores. In that scene, MGR sings a song which
decries the status of men and sings a few lines which meant some thing like
"women making the men slave by focing him to stay home " etc.
Does anybody remember that song.
In the end MGR ends marrying that princess and two others.
Ironically, MGR in all his movies tries to portray himself as the
ideal son any mother would like to have.
BTW, to start another thread, in that movie all the characters were
muslim characters although I found anything specific in the story
that relates to islamic belief (except ofcourse that MGR marries
three women)
Venkat Tarmangalam
(a proud pondicherrian)