SANSKRIT SLOKAM etc.
Prabhukumar Ganapathy
I am writing this article to share my views on SANSKRIT slokams
etc. Already Mr.Pandian, Mr.Selva are writing on this. Please note that
this is not a flame but an attmept to tell what I feel.Even I have some
confusion on this issue for a long time.
I know both tamil and sanskrit slokams. Of course as pointed by
Mr.Pandian as I don't know sanskrit,I tell the sanskrit slokams printed
in tamil scripts. As anyone could guess my pronounciation is well below
average even though I try my best to learn. In fact I should agree that
I feel more satisfied when I recite tamil slokams (don't object to this
word also) like "kandhar anuboothi" or "abiraami anthaadhi" than when I
recite "vishnu sahasranamam" or "pursha shuktham". I make mistkes in
both. I don't understand 100% meaning of both. Tamil being my mother
tongue I understand tamil stuff more easily than sanskrit stuff. I make
less mistakes also. Definitely if I had time and opportunity (say like
my grandfather) I would have done well in sanskrit also. But I still
recite both language stuff with same sense of devotion.
Now the question of understanding the meaning and perfection in
pronounciation comes. It is good to have both. But do you think these
two are possible even in tamil. How many "tamils" can tell the complete
meaning of "anuboothi" or "kavacham" or any other simple tamil slokam.
Stil there are some tamil people who can not pronounce tamil letters
"la" and "La" properly which may also distort the meaning as noted by
Mr.Pandian in the case of sanskrit. One sample from a song on "vinaayaka
perumaan".
"thEdi thEdi engO Oduginraan unnai thEdi kandu koLLalaamE
-uLLE thEdi kandu KoLLalaamE"
Now imagine the danger mispronouncing "LLa" as "lla" in the word "KoLLalaamE".
It will mean killing the god. So these problems will be there
in any language if you are not good at it. If I condemn few "brahmins"
for telling sanskrit stuff without proper understanding or pronounciation
I feel I will do it in a more general way. I feel this rule should be
applied to anyone reciting anything in any language.
On a side note the above song starts with the line
"prabhO ganapathE pari poorana vaazhvaruLvaayE".
This half tamil & half sanskrit song is supposed to by
Sage Agathiyar. It is a nice song. I like it a lot (May be
because it starts with my name and my dad's name).
Coming back to our original topic. Should one not recite slokams
(1) If you can't pronounce it properly (2) If you don't know the
menaing. My feeling is if you feel it is good for you, go ahead and
do it. But trying to correct the mistakes is a good idea than
just telling them. It all depends on opportunities and availability
of time.
I would like to conclude with an explanation given by one person.
People asked him the same question that I raised in the previous
paragraph. He said almost the same that I conveyed as my feeling
but with a good example. He called a small kid with his mother
and asked the kid to speak few words on the mike. He asked the
people if they could make out anything. No one was sure. He then
turned to the kid's mother and asked the same question and she
was able to tell what the kid talked. Then he went on and said
we being the kids of lord, lord can understand our "mazhalai"
even if it is not clear. But the kid when it grows up should
change so that it will be understood by everyone. So if we could
improve our pronounciation skill then it will be better. Then
he said let me come to other question of meaning. He asked a
person in the crowd if he knows the meaning of PTO or PIN which
he uses in his letters. The person said I don't know the exact meaning.
The the speaker said eventhough this person don't know the
meaning (I think he meant exapansion and exact meaning) his
letters are turned over to the next page and are delivered at
proper post office. He knows where to put what. If he knows the
exact meaning may be he would find more uses for those words. But
still it works even if you don't understand it 100%. He said the
same thing could be said about slokams. If you can understand them
you will enjoy them more. This is really a good explanation in my
view.
Now my views. Of course all comparisions could be misleading. But I feel
if one enjoys reciting a slokam (which he neither understands nor pronounce
properly) then it is his right to do it or not. We passing judgements on
those persons are not correct. Paricularly blaming one community and one
lanugage is not correct. If you feel it is not a good thing to tell something
which you neither understand not pronounce properly then I think we should
write our views in a more general way than hurting just few chosen people.
I don't care what X or Y tells but it is better for X or Y to avoid
criticisms on the basis of caste or language. It is good for everyone of
us to avoid fights on these lines.
I am not very good in arguing with people on the net. I am telling these
stuff in a general way. I have nothing against Mr.Pandian or Mr.Selva.
In fact I enjoy their articles along with the postings of Mr.Sundaramoorthy,
Mr.Sornam Sankrara, Mr.Raj, Mr.Balaji to name a few. I like the group
in general. I try to avoid wars. That is the reason I don't post too
often.
I think I just conveyed what I had in my mind. Opinions welcome. I may
not have time to react to all of them. Sorry about that.
I plan to start a 32 part article on "bhaja gOvindham" very soon on SCT.
It will be just reproducing some printed stuff from a book. Here I will
give all the translations.
I would like people to post more on the works of "aazhvaar",
"naayanmaar" and people like "arunagiri naathar", "thaayumaanav
swaamigaL", "iraamalinga swaamigal" etc. This way we could
spread tamil and its culture more than arguing about "DRAVIDIAN
Vs ARYAN", "BRAHMIN Vs OTHERS", "TAMIL Vs SANSCRIT", "INDIAN
GOVERNMEN Vs LTTE" etc. Of course people should have interest
and time. Some people (already lot of people are doing) can
concentrate on non-bakthi literature in tamil also. Of course
more giftet ones can try new songs, essays etc. Let us talk
about our culture without telling something bad about others.
"We show our respect to our mother not by scolding our neighbour's
mother. Do We ?"
Sorry for bothering you with such a long boring artile. I had
some time to kill I guess.
PK
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>Hi
>
> I am writing this article to share my views on SANSKRIT slokams
>etc. Already Mr.Pandian, Mr.Selva are writing on this. Please note that
>this is not a flame but an attmept to tell what I feel.Even I have some
>confusion on this issue for a long time.
>
> I know both tamil and sanskrit slokams. Of course as pointed by
>Mr.Pandian as I don't know sanskrit,I tell the sanskrit slokams printed
>in tamil scripts. As anyone could guess my pronounciation is well below
>average even though I try my best to learn. In fact I should agree that
>I feel more satisfied when I recite tamil slokams (don't object to this
>word also) like "kandhar anuboothi" or "abiraami anthaadhi" than when I
These are extremely deep and soulful songs.
We are indeed _very_ fortunate to have these in Tamil.
abiraami andhathi sung by Seerkaazhi Govindaraajan is
available in cassettes. For the outward look these
songs might look simple but they tell us much more than
than meets the eye/ear.
>recite "vishnu sahasranamam" or "pursha shuktham". I make mistkes in
>both. I don't understand 100% meaning of both. Tamil being my mother
>tongue I understand tamil stuff more easily than sanskrit stuff. I make
>less mistakes also. Definitely if I had time and opportunity (say like
>my grandfather) I would have done well in sanskrit also. But I still
>recite both language stuff with same sense of devotion.
>
I think aruNagirinaathar ( ?) said 'thamizhaal vaithaaraiyum
aangu vaazha vaippOm' ( = even if you scold in Tamil, you
will be given 'heaven' ) ( don't ask me how ? :) )
> Now the question of understanding the meaning and perfection in
>pronounciation comes. It is good to have both. But do you think these
>two are possible even in tamil. How many "tamils" can tell the complete
>meaning of "anuboothi" or "kavacham" or any other simple tamil slokam.
>Stil there are some tamil people who can not pronounce tamil letters
>"la" and "La" properly which may also distort the meaning as noted by
>Mr.Pandian in the case of sanskrit. One sample from a song on "vinaayaka
>perumaan".
>
> "thEdi thEdi engO Oduginraan unnai thEdi kandu koLLalaamE
> -uLLE thEdi kandu KoLLalaamE"
>
>Now imagine the danger mispronouncing "LLa" as "lla" in the word "KoLLalaamE".
>It will mean killing the god. So these problems will be there
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is some beauty here ! Let us suppose you say
'kollaamE' rather than 'koLLamE', even then it would
make perfect sense !!!
How ?
Think ! ( hint: what is to be killed ?)
>
[ excellent story deleted for brevity ]
> you will enjoy them more. This is really a good explanation in my
> view.
>
>Now my views. Of course all comparisions could be misleading. But I feel
>if one enjoys reciting a slokam (which he neither understands nor pronounce
>properly) then it is his right to do it or not. We passing judgements on
>those persons are not correct. Paricularly blaming one community and one
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>lanugage is not correct. If you feel it is not a good thing to tell something
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I entirely agree that blaming one community is wrong.
But if use of Sanskrit or English is discouraged in Tamil
you should try to understand the reason rather than taking it
as hating any language. If we say 'namskaaram' rather than
'vaNakkam' , two things happen. One the word 'vaNakkam gets
killed slowly, then other usages like 'vaNangaa thalai'
'vaNangaa mudi' , 'vaNakkamillamal', 'vaNangi oru vElai
seyya maattaan' and such usages get weakened. The native
words strengthen other words and ramify fast. My sister
lives in Coimbatore in a place called 'new chiththaa puthoor'!
The english word 'new' can easily be written in tamil as
'niyu' but it is counter productive linguistically.
'puthu' will give rise to 'puthiya-' or 'puth-' and we can
form numerous words..let us see:
puth_aandu = new year
puth_uNaRchi = freshness ( of feeling)
But one can coin refreshingly new words
puth_ookkam = with a renewed vigour/enthusiam
puth_ERRam = new-found elevated status/position ( pathavi)
puth_aakkam = new-creation ( for example S_Bala's madurai)
puth_urimai koNdaadu = taking new liberties
puth_aRivu peRa vEndum = we have to aquire new-insight/tech..
puth_aasai = a new-found infatuation/interest
puth_aaval = new-found enthusiasm or renewed-interest
puth_irakkam = new-found pity
puth_iNakkam = new-found closeness
puth_iLamai = new-feeling of youngness
puthoRRumai = new-found unity
.......
......
I can go on for a long time.. the main point is one can
easily create words with new shades of meaning and yet
almost instatly imbibe its sense.. these will be lost
or weakened if we use 'new' instead of 'puthiya'.
Please remember that Tamil is one of the longest living
languages and its survival sense is really great. If its
speakers respect its strength it will live in glory.
Intentionally injecting _unneeded_ words will corrupt
the tone and weaken its native root-strengths. If objections
are raised, those who care for tamil will listen and
cooperate. Nobody can force anything ( although some
organizations and Govt. etc. can influence to some
degree).
>
>I plan to start a 32 part article on "bhaja gOvindham" very soon on SCT.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you explain the meanings and gloss using Tamil words it
would be valuable and sensible to post on SCT valai but
if you give the slokam and write the meaning only in Englsih
you would be better of to post it in SCI. Sanskrit
is an extraordinarily great language and it was greatly
nurtured in Tamil Naadu ( the centre of Skt. learning was
in Tamil Naadu after 800 A.D), but because some Sanskrit
chauvanists tried to belittle Tamil ( saying that Skt. is
Deva Basha and Tamil was born out of it etc.) and
intentionally mixed Skt. in Tamil and some tried to create
a style where the character of Tamil will be completely
lost ( the so called maNipravaaLa nadai ; maNi means
gem ( usually red ruby but here it denotes either diamond
or pearl) and pravaaLa means pavazham ). After these
attempts to 'kill' this beautiful language, certain people
like maRai malai adigaL et al started thaniththamizh nadai
and slowly Tamil was rescued from this treacherous trend.
I like Sanskrit and I think it has one of the most majestic
sound ( gambeeryam) and dvani and it has one of the finest
collections of literature, but I seriously oppose mixing
Sanskrit with Tamil where it is _unneeded_.
>It will be just reproducing some printed stuff from a book. Here I will
>give all the translations.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please give these in Tamil !
>
>I would like people to post more on the works of "aazhvaar",
>"naayanmaar" and people like "arunagiri naathar", "thaayumaanav
>swaamigaL", "iraamalinga swaamigal" etc. This way we could
>spread tamil and its culture more than arguing about "DRAVIDIAN
>Vs ARYAN", "BRAHMIN Vs OTHERS", "TAMIL Vs SANSCRIT", "INDIAN
>GOVERNMEN Vs LTTE" etc. Of course people should have interest
>and time. Some people (already lot of people are doing) can
>concentrate on non-bakthi literature in tamil also. Of course
>more giftet ones can try new songs, essays etc. Let us talk
>about our culture without telling something bad about others.
>
>"We show our respect to our mother not by scolding our neighbour's
>mother. Do We ?"
>
>Sorry for bothering you with such a long boring artile. I had
>some time to kill I guess.
>
>
>PK
>
anbudan & puth_ookkathudan
- Selva
visw...@draco.rutgers.edu
to a posting by Prabhukumar Ganapathy:
Without going into other aspsects of Selva's arguments, I think
he is wrong on this one matter, i.e. that keeping to original
Dravidian elements in Tamil is preferable because one can create
new words with them. I don't think it is appropriate to equate
Sanskrit and English in this connection. English is still a
very foreign language, and has not been integrated into the Indian
way of thinking (relative to Sanskrit). This is not quite true
of Sanskrit. Borrowings into Tamil from Sanskrit are felt by
their users to be entirely Tamil.
(Note, I am distinguishing between
Tamil words of Sanskrit origin and Tamil words of Dravidian origin,
so as not to confuse the issue. As I mentioned before, a Sanskrit
borrowing into Tamil could very well have a different meaning. The
example that I can think of, is the word 'rasam.' In my dialect,
this can mean interest, in the sense of 'romba rasama irundhudhu'--
it was very interesting. I don't think this is what rasam meant in
Sanskrit, although the idea in Sanskrit is similar.
Again, there is the example of oru samayam, meaning perhaps. I
don't think samayam is used in Sanskrit in this manner.)
Getting back from my digression, what the "nativeness" of Sanskrit
in the Tamil context means is that one can easily coin new words
in Tamil with Sanskrit elements. For example,
noothana_varusham = new year
noothana_uNaRchi = freshness ( of feeling)
But one can coin refreshingly new words
noothana_ookkam = with a renewed vigour/enthusiam
noothana_ERRam = new-found elevated status/position ( pathavi)
noothana_aakkam = new-creation ( for example S_Bala's madurai)
noothana_urimai koNdaadu = taking new liberties
noothana_aRivu peRa vEndum = we have to aquire new-insight/tech..
noothana_aasai = a new-found infatuation/interest
noothana_aaval = new-found enthusiasm or renewed-interest
noothana_irakkam = new-found pity
noothana_iNakkam = new-found closeness
noothana_iLamai = new-feeling of youngness
noothana_oRRumai = new-found unity
.......
......
I can go on for a long time.. the main point is one can
create new words equally well with Tamil roots of Sanskritic
origin as with Tamil roots of Dravidian origin.
Hence the argument has to be one of two: one, people don't
understand the Sanskrit roots, and two, the roots of Sanskrit origin
don't 'sound' nice.
If it is the first argument, then several conclusions follow.
First of all, a distinction has to be made between roots that
people understand and those that people don't. Then, again,
one might argue (just on this basis) that the same distinction
should be made for Tamil words of Dravidian origin, i.e. if there is an old
Tamil word of Dravidian origin, is it more understood than another one
that is of Sanskrit origin? If the answer is in the negative, then
the Tamil word of Sanskrit origin should be preferred.
I think it is the second argument that most people rely on. In this
case (and I am sympathetic to this argument), we are not talking
about reason and logic. Hence, even if this is the basis on which
we wish to advance the superiority of Tamil words of Dravidian origin,
one should be clear about the emotional/subjective basis of the
suggestion that is being made.
> Please remember that Tamil is one of the longest living
> languages and its survival sense is really great. If its
> speakers respect its strength it will live in glory.
I believe that this is absolutely true. In fact, it is so strong
that in the appropriate context, foreign borrowings are completely
Tamilised and go on to strengthen and enrich the language. I didn't
mention this before, but what I think would happen is that both
Dravidian and Sanskritic elements in Tamil will coexist with
slightly different meanings (cf. in English where we have a host of
such words, e.g. mutton and sheep, veal and calf, craft and knowledge,
ad almost infinitum).
> If objections
> are raised, those who care for tamil will listen and
> cooperate. Nobody can force anything ( although some
> organizations and Govt. etc. can influence to some
> degree).
>
I am somewhat bothered by the tone here. I hope that an opinion
contradicting the particular logic (but not necessarily the
policy of using Dravidian roots) put forward by Selva will not
be condemned out of hand as the words of one who does not 'care' for Tamil.
anbudan, (and note I do not say noothana_ookkaththudan
P.V. Viswanath
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>> .......
>> ......
>> I can go on for a long time.. the main point is one can
>Getting back from my digression, what the "nativeness" of Sanskrit
>in the Tamil context means is that one can easily coin new words
>in Tamil with Sanskrit elements. For example,
veLLai kaaran new enRan. noo enkiRaarkaL. onnum vithiyaasamaakath
theriyavillai. aiyaah! ungkaLai kai eduththu kumbidikiROm!
thamizhai vittu vidungaL aiyaah!
> noothana_varusham = new year
> noothana_uNaRchi = freshness ( of feeling)
>
> But one can coin refreshingly new words
>
> noothana_ookkam = with a renewed vigour/enthusiam
> noothana_ERRam = new-found elevated status/position ( pathavi)
> noothana_aakkam = new-creation ( for example S_Bala's madurai)
> noothana_urimai koNdaadu = taking new liberties
> noothana_aRivu peRa vEndum = we have to aquire new-insight/tech..
> noothana_aasai = a new-found infatuation/interest
> noothana_aaval = new-found enthusiasm or renewed-interest
> noothana_irakkam = new-found pity
> noothana_iNakkam = new-found closeness
> noothana_iLamai = new-feeling of youngness
> noothana_oRRumai = new-found unity
> .......
> ......
> I can go on for a long time.. the main point is one can
>create new words equally well with Tamil roots of Sanskritic
>origin as with Tamil roots of Dravidian origin.
>Hence the argument has to be one of two: one, people don't
>understand the Sanskrit roots, and two, the roots of Sanskrit origin
>don't 'sound' nice.
vinaayagar akaval padithathuNdu, 15 varudangaLukku mun. The
new version to say the least is all screwed up with sanskrit words.
The real problem is not sanskrit. But garbling vinaayagar akaval.
Pl. if you know anybody doing this garbling business pl.
do advice them kindly to not garble. The new akaval to say
the least does not make sense at all. You can help in
new words if there are not any thamizh words, but pl.
accept my feelings about screwing up a native, aboriginal
tongue.
thiruvaasgaththaiyE kuzhappi uLLaarkaL aiyaah!
ithena sOthanai. I have something to show here.
Now I just do not have time to get involved
full time in this. If at all I live longer my
life time project is to unscrew all the screwing
done to thamizh texts.
>Dravidian and Sanskritic elements in Tamil will coexist with
>slightly different meanings (cf. in English where we have a host of
>such words, e.g. mutton and sheep, veal and calf, craft and knowledge,
>ad almost infinitum).
kaRi, iRaichchi-mutton, calf-kanRu, knowledge-itharkku aangilaththil,
vadamozhiyil uLLathai vida thamizhil athkam soRkaL uLLana.
meignaanam, aRivu...
But Sir! What is happening I consider this is devious. There is too
much of devious activity going on. I do not want to
go on an emotional ride. For example: I was pained to
see a children's book released in thamizh telling
"snake" as sharpam. What can you term this. There is
no paampu or aravam. It sounds "serpent". The British
left. They did not deviously do like this. But being
thamizh,amoungst thamizhs this is not good. After all
it is for them to decide. They control all the machinery.
One day they will say akaNda paaratham. thamizhan ingku
irunthaan enna solluvaarkaL.
>> If objections
>> are raised, those who care for tamil will listen and
>> cooperate. Nobody can force anything ( although some
>> organizations and Govt. etc. can influence to some
>> degree).
>>
>I am somewhat bothered by the tone here. I hope that an opinion
>contradicting the particular logic (but not necessarily the
>policy of using Dravidian roots) put forward by Selva will not
>be condemned out of hand as the words of one who does not 'care' for Tamil.
>anbudan, (and note I do not say noothana_ookkaththudan
>P.V. Viswanath
thaangaL enna sonnaalum paravaayillai. puththakathil uLLa
nalla vaarthai kaLaiyE maaRum sriraam publisher sai ennaiyaah
seiya mudiyum. thamizhan innum madaiyanaakavE irukkinRaan.
thideer ena uNarvu vanthu kuthippaan. illai sivanEnu
paduthiruppaan.
anban
Kathiravan
Sundara Pandian
P.V. Viswanath on this subject.
I had read in some articles about borrowings from Sanskrit
into Tamil. Some of these borrowings don't have the direct
meaning. Brahmins refer to `gayatri mantra' in Tamil as `gayatri
mandhiram'. But `mandhiram' means a `temple' in Sanskrit and the
Hindi word `mandhir' is derived from this. The borrowing `vikaaram'
means `ugly' in usage. But `vikaaram' is derived from `vihaaram',
which refers to buddhist/jainist temples. The hindi word `vihaar'
is derived from this. Some other borrowings have a restricted
meaning. Brahmins use `dhavasam' to refer to death rituals. This
is derived from the Sanskrit word `dhivasam' which means a `day'.
Some decades ago, the Sanskrit word `akkraasanaapathi' for
the `saba leader' was replaced by `avaiththalaivar' in Anna's
government. That change was understandable, for `akraasanaapathi'
would mean a post greater than president. `VaNakkam' is also a
good Tamil word. We have two words for marriages `vivaaha suba
muhUrththam' and `maNa vizhaa'. I like the word `maNa vizhaa'.
Such Tamil words can be easily implemented into daily usage as
they are simple.
Though I don't see many borrowings in the written Tamil, there
are many borrowings in the spoken Tamil. `kEdi', `killaadi', `pOkkiri',
`rowdi' are all borrowings from English, Hindi and Urdu. The Tamils
words `thirudan', `gundan', `thadiyan' are also in usage, but people
take the above words `kEdi', `killaadi' etc also as Tamil words.
The distinction of these common words in this example into languages
is not done by the people but by linguists or other interests.
I did not like Viswanath's example of coining words from `noothana'.
It is not much in usage as the word `puthiya' Selva pointed out.
`naveena' is more popular than `noothana' and this is in usage in
written Tamil also. Why, the Tamil word for a novel `naveenam' is a
borrowing. Another word for `novel', `puthinam' which falls in the
list of words Selva pointed out is also in usage. I like both these
words `naveenam' and `puthinam'.
I welcome new words for usage coined from the existing Tamil words
like `maNa vizhaa', `puthinam' , `puthu nOkku' etc. but I don't like
removing the existing borrowings from other languages that are in
common usage.
- SP.
Sundara Pandian
>In <1993Feb12...@draco.rutgers.edu> visw...@draco.rutgers.edu writes:
>>> .......
>>> ......
>>> I can go on for a long time.. the main point is one can
>
>>in the Tamil context means is that one can easily coin new words
>>in Tamil with Sanskrit elements. For example,
>
> veLLai kaaran new enRan. noo enkiRaarkaL. onnum vithiyaasamaakath
>theriyavillai.
Viswanath was coining words fromthe borrowing `noothana' to make
a point. Do you know that `viththiyaasam' is a borrowing too from
the Sanskrit word `vidyaasam' for difference? ( The pure Tamil word
`vERupaadu' is also in usage. ) Hope you don't take other borrowings
in common usage like `bookOLam' ( for geography ), `boomi' for earth,
`puththakam' for book as `viththiyaasams' also. The pure Tamil words
for these `puviyial', `puvi', `nool' are not in common usage.
> aiyaah! ungkaLai kai eduththu kumbidikiROm!
>thamizhai vittu vidungaL aiyaah!
I think you have not understood Viswanath's article. `noodhana' for
`pudhiya' is also in usage, but not a popular one. `naveena' might
have been a better example. He was making a point that we can also
words from the borrowings from other languages in Tamil.
>> [quotes deleted]
> vinaayagar akaval padithathuNdu, 15 varudangaLukku mun. The
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>new version to say the least is all screwed up with sanskrit words.
`varudam' is a borrowing too. It is from the Sanskrit word
`varusham' for `year'. The Tamil word is `aaNdu'.
>The real problem is not sanskrit. But garbling vinaayagar akaval.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Pl. if you know anybody doing this garbling business pl.
>do advice them kindly to not garble. The new akaval to say
>the least does not make sense at all. You can help in
>new words if there are not any thamizh words, but pl.
>accept my feelings about screwing up a native, aboriginal
>tongue.
Can you say more on this? I have not read the old version or
new version of `vinaayakar akaval'. On an unrelated note, I find
many Sanskrit words in the commentaries for the vaisnavite works.
As I know some Sanskrit , I can make out their meanings, but I
understand the feelings of others who find it hard to read such
commentaries or translations. ( Kanchi Sankaracharya also uses
many Sanskrit words in his sayings and writings. )
>
> thiruvaasgaththaiyE kuzhappi uLLaarkaL aiyaah!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ithena sOthanai. I have something to show here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Now I just do not have time to get involved
> full time in this. If at all I live longer my
> life time project is to unscrew all the screwing
> done to thamizh texts.
Can you say more on this?
>>Dravidian and Sanskritic elements in Tamil will coexist with
>>slightly different meanings (cf. in English where we have a host of
>>such words, e.g. mutton and sheep, veal and calf, craft and knowledge,
>>ad almost infinitum).
>
> kaRi, iRaichchi-mutton, calf-kanRu, knowledge-itharkku aangilaththil,
>vadamozhiyil uLLathai vida thamizhil athkam soRkaL uLLana.
>meignaanam, aRivu...
Do the words kaRi-maamisam, aRivu-buththu, go well?
> But Sir! What is happening I consider this is devious. There is too
>much of devious activity going on. I do not want to
>go on an emotional ride. For example: I was pained to
>see a children's book released in thamizh telling
>"snake" as sharpam. What can you term this. There is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>no paampu or aravam. It sounds "serpent". The British
>left. They did not deviously do like this. But being
>thamizh,amoungst thamizhs this is not good. After all
>it is for them to decide. They control all the machinery.
>One day they will say akaNda paaratham. thamizhan ingku
>irunthaan enna solluvaarkaL.
The usage `sarppam' for `snake' is outdated. The Tamil word
`paambu' is in usage for a long time. Anyone remembers the
pazhamozhi veNpaa ending with `paampaRiyum paambina kaal'.
This Tamil work was written around the days of THirukkuRaL.
I am sure `paambu' is the right word for `snake' in Tamil
books and thanks for pointing out an outdated usage in Tamil
books.
>
>>> If objections
>>> are raised, those who care for tamil will listen and
>>> cooperate. Nobody can force anything ( although some
>>> organizations and Govt. etc. can influence to some
>>> degree).
>>>
>
>>I am somewhat bothered by the tone here. I hope that an opinion
>>contradicting the particular logic (but not necessarily the
>>policy of using Dravidian roots) put forward by Selva will not
>>be condemned out of hand as the words of one who does not 'care' for Tamil.
>
>>anbudan, (and note I do not say noothana_ookkaththudan
>>P.V. Viswanath
>
> thaangaL enna sonnaalum paravaayillai. puththakathil uLLa
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> nalla vaarthai kaLaiyE maaRum sriraam publisher sai ennaiyaah
> seiya mudiyum.
`puththakam' is a borrowing from Sanskrit as I pointed out earlier.
We can keep it in Tamil as it is in common usage.
>
> anban
>Kathiravan
- SP.
Sundara Pandian
posting. - SP ]
In article <kat.729799238@tomalak> Kathiravan (k...@doe.carleton.ca) writes:
>In <1993Feb12...@draco.rutgers.edu> visw...@draco.rutgers.edu writes:
>>> .......
>>> ......
>>> I can go on for a long time.. the main point is one can
>
>>Getting back from my digression, what the "nativeness" of Sanskrit
>>in the Tamil context means is that one can easily coin new words
>>in Tamil with Sanskrit elements. For example,
>
> veLLai kaaran new enRan. noo enkiRaarkaL. onnum vithiyaasamaakath
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>theriyavillai.
Viswanath was coining words fromthe borrowing `noothana' to make
a point. Do you know that `viththiyaasam' is a borrowing too from
the Sanskrit word `vidyaasam' for difference? ( The pure Tamil word
`vERupaadu' is also in usage. ) Hope you don't mind other borrowings
Do the words kaRi-maamisam, aRivu-buththi, go well?
> But Sir! What is happening I consider this is devious. There is too
>much of devious activity going on. I do not want to
>go on an emotional ride. For example: I was pained to
>see a children's book released in thamizh telling
>"snake" as sharpam. What can you term this. There is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>no paampu or aravam. It sounds "serpent". The British
>left. They did not deviously do like this. But being
>thamizh,amoungst thamizhs this is not good. After all
>it is for them to decide. They control all the machinery.
>One day they will say akaNda paaratham. thamizhan ingku
>irunthaan enna solluvaarkaL.
The usage `sarppam' for `snake' is outdated. The Tamil word
`paambu' is in usage for a long time. Anyone remembers the
pazhamozhi veNpaa ending with `paampaRiyum paambina kaal'.
This Tamil work was written around the days of THirukkuRaL.
I am sure `paambu' is the right word for `snake' in Tamil
books and thanks for pointing out an outdated usage in Tamil
books.
>
>>> If objections
>>> are raised, those who care for tamil will listen and
>>> cooperate. Nobody can force anything ( although some
>>> organizations and Govt. etc. can influence to some
>>> degree).
>>>
>
Mani Varadarajan
Some other borrowings have a restricted
meaning. Brahmins use `dhavasam' to refer to death rituals. This
is derived from the Sanskrit word `dhivasam' which means a `day'.
Actually, I think the word is "devasam", and means something like
"one with the gods" or "gone to the gods". At least I remember my
father saying it that way, and no as "davasam" or "divasam".
Contributing a minor point,
Mani
snr...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
There is no sense in using words like sharpam and pushpam in
text books when there are nice commonly used words such as
"paambu" for "sharpam" and "poo" or "malar" for "pushpam".
It is not that, I hate the word "sharpam", but why use that
when " paambu" is used by everybody. Similarly, when
verybody understands "poo" or "malar", why somebody says
"pushpam vaangittu ponga"?
Such words really keep the common man away from the text
books, where as they are meant to be used by everybody.
Thaks Kathiravan for your contributions in this useful
discussion.
aadikku orumurai varum anban
Ramanan
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
[ previous quotes of articles deleted to save space]
>
> There is no sense in using words like sharpam and pushpam in
> text books when there are nice commonly used words such as
> "paambu" for "sharpam" and "poo" or "malar" for "pushpam".
I agree.
>
>
> It is not that, I hate the word "sharpam", but why use that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> when " paambu" is used by everybody. Similarly, when
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> verybody understands "poo" or "malar", why somebody says
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> "pushpam vaangittu ponga"?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Valid point. Further, by changing 'malar' or 'poo'
to 'pushpam', we weaken words like verbal forms
'malarthal' thamizh malarchchi etc. poo > pooththal,
pooppu, poonthOTTam.. Now some people will ask
En pushpiththal enRu solla koodaathu ?!! If one observes
words in a language and understand how they
ramify and how such ramifications in meaning and
form enriches a language, one will _not_ object to
using native words.
In tamil we have 'arumbu', 'mottu', 'alar' 'malar'
'poo', 'pinju', 'kaai' 'kani', 'pazham' etc. and see
how many of them have given rise to verbal forms and other
semantic senses. Spend a few minutes to assess these words
and the semantic senses the have given birth to. Killing
these words by introducing non-native words will
impoverish the linguistic-eco system !!!
anbudan
- Selva
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>In article <kat.729799238@tomalak> Kathiravan (k...@doe.carleton.ca) writes:
>>In <1993Feb12...@draco.rutgers.edu> visw...@draco.rutgers.edu writes:
> I think you have not understood Viswanath's article. `noodhana' for
>`pudhiya' is also in usage, but not a popular one. `naveena' might
>have been a better example. He was making a point that we can also
>words from the borrowings from other languages in Tamil.
kuzhanthai azhukinRaan. sEi azhukiRathu. pasi aiyaah!
thaai paal kodukalaam. thaai illai. maavin paal
kodukkalaam. naai paalaik koNdu vanthu koduththaal
eppadi. naaip paal uLLE sellamal vaandhi eduththu
vidum kuzhanthai.
Some of words will purged like naai paal.
the example of noo or naveen for new is like
naaip paal. noo+ aaNdu enna?
noo + uNarchchi enna? puththaaNdukkum
nooRaaNdu stand for two different things.
`
puthinam, puthiyana, puthiyathu will go
on. It fits very well. adj, noun, verb
You name it. naaip paalai koNdu vanthu
aariyam enRa peyaril sollivittaal athu
serikkaathu kuzhanthaikku.
The same is for namaskaaram. It is lying
anaamathu. But as selvaa pointed out vaNakkam
is everywhere, vaNanku, vaNakaa mudi etc.
It is deeper than namaskaaram.
thamizh is continuous. Every word
we speak has connections. That is
why thamizh is rich, classical and
has survived.
thamizh language will take care of lot of
this stuff. But there are children who might
get used to dog's milk eventually. That
can also happen in thamizh. There
are examples of cow's milk also. I mean
some words fro sanskrit that might fit
after modification.
>>> [quotes deleted]
>
>> vinaayagar akaval padithathuNdu, 15 varudangaLukku mun. The
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>new version to say the least is all screwed up with sanskrit words.
>>The real problem is not sanskrit. But garbling vinaayagar akaval.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Pl. if you know anybody doing this garbling business pl.
>>do advice them kindly to not garble. The new akaval to say
>>the least does not make sense at all. You can help in
>>new words if there are not any thamizh words, but pl.
>>accept my feelings about screwing up a native, aboriginal
I know this is an intellectual forum. I
just cannot hand wave and make statements. I
studied in RK Mission School. My father did
not like the Chistian Convent School I went to as
a child. But reflecting back I would say that
RK Mission School is equally bad. They blindly
asked us to shout vEdaas and swaamijeekku jai
for the old guy who hails sanskrit above everything.
There were some students who used to shout
bad words when mantraas were uttered. I fought
with some of friends then. I met a rationalist
later and found out a lot of truth
Now I am more aware of whats goin on.
First. I said vinaayagar akaval. The book
is "theiveekath thuthikaL" thokuppu
by TGS Balaraama aiyer. Sri kaarthikk agencies
2-A paathE hanumanthaiyar santhi, kaamaraj saalai, Madurai-9.
Look for that book. He has mixed sans and thamizh
deliberately and I do not understand why?
vinaayagar akaval
vEzha mugamum viLangku sinthooramum
anjukaramum angusa paasamum
nenjil kudikoNda neela mEniyum
...........................
The song can be sung to a good
rhythm that creates an emotional fulfillment.
Pl. look at the measure of the words. TGS
goes and adds [I feel that the thaaLam is
upset. It becomes kooLam. Also I do
not know the meaning]
mooshika vaahna mOthahashtha shaamara karNaa vilampitha sooshthra.
.......... another line.
The measure of words is out. That is it.
naai paala kuzhanthai vaayilai oothuna eppadi`
irrukkum. athE thaan.
I shall write about thiruvaasaga mess done
by another overzealous sanskritic imposer.
I know very well aruNagiri used sanskrit in
beautiful resonance in some of his songs.
But this vinaayagar akaval is a distorted
version.
A
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> Can you say more on this?
I will with full proof after my TA session.
>>much of devious activity going on. I do not want to
>>go on an emotional ride. For example: I was pained to
>>see a children's book released in thamizh telling
>>"snake" as sharpam. What can you term this. There is
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The usage `sarppam' for `snake' is outdated. The Tamil word
>`paambu' is in usage for a long time. Anyone remembers the
>pazhamozhi veNpaa ending with `paampaRiyum paambina kaal'.
>This Tamil work was written around the days of THirukkuRaL.
>I am sure `paambu' is the right word for `snake' in Tamil
>books and thanks for pointing out an outdated usage in Tamil
>books.
anparE! intha sreeram publishers vENdum enRE
mazhalaikaL padikkum puththakaththil paampai
kaati isharpum enkiRaan. naan enna solvathu.
neengaL eNNi paarungaL.
TGS ennakku therintha akavalil kooLam seithuLLaan
maRRa paadalkaLil kalappadam thEvaiyaRRa. poruL
theriyaamal. It changes some philosophical
things said originally in thamizh.
anban
Kathiravan
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>he is wrong on this one matter, i.e. that keeping to original
>Dravidian elements in Tamil is preferable because one can create
>new words with them. I don't think it is appropriate to equate
I don't think there is 'right and 'wrong' here but
'preferable or not' is the question. Please see below
for my comments..
>Sanskrit and English in this connection. English is still a
>very foreign language, and has not been integrated into the Indian
>way of thinking (relative to Sanskrit). This is not quite true
>of Sanskrit. Borrowings into Tamil from Sanskrit are felt by
>their users to be entirely Tamil.
>
>(Note, I am distinguishing between
>Tamil words of Sanskrit origin and Tamil words of Dravidian origin,
>so as not to confuse the issue. As I mentioned before, a Sanskrit
>borrowing into Tamil could very well have a different meaning. The
>example that I can think of, is the word 'rasam.' In my dialect,
>this can mean interest, in the sense of 'romba rasama irundhudhu'--
>it was very interesting. I don't think this is what rasam meant in
>Sanskrit, although the idea in Sanskrit is similar.
>Again, there is the example of oru samayam, meaning perhaps. I
>don't think samayam is used in Sanskrit in this manner.)
>
>Getting back from my digression, what the "nativeness" of Sanskrit
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>in the Tamil context means is that one can easily coin new words
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>in Tamil with Sanskrit elements. For example,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you have not understood my point. Not that new words
can not be constructed, but the native sense will become
more and more remote. The word 'puthiya' gives room to
even a verbal form 'puthukku'. The manner in which a native
word will ramify is enriching but the manner in which the
'foreign' words from English and Sanskrit develop in
Tamil will be cumbersome, weak in meaning ( for the Tamils)
and will destroy the linguistic eco-system.
>
> noothana_varusham = new year
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In Tamil the word 'noothana-' is used in the sense of
'new, rare and delicate'. 'noothanamaana poruL means
curio or a delicate and difficult-to-get item. The
meaning of 'delicate' gets implied in Tamil context because of
Tamil sense of 'noo' = nutpam, nuNukkam [ This might not be
meant in Skt. but this sense will appeal to Tamil; Please
note that in Tamil kathiravan will rise in the east as
'thaga thaga', a tree will fall as 'mada mada' or one may
do work fast as 'kidu kidu', the rain may sometimes rain
for tamils as 'nachu nachu' but for others these things
don't happen in these manner :) If you are a Tamil and if
you accidently put your finger in a flame or some extremely
hot thing, it will burn you as 'sureer' but for others it
might not be so :)
In the above 'noothana_varusham' you had killed two
nice Tamil words. Further it does not give the
energetic zestful vibrations of 'puththaaNdu'
> noothana_uNaRchi = freshness ( of feeling)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It might give the impression that 'a strange feeling'
and _not_ puth_uNaRchchi. The word 'puththuNaRchchi'
seems to contain a unique energy-packed fullness of
sense which 'noothana_uNaRchchi' precisely lacks.
This is my honest feeling. Why not niyu_uNaRchchi ??
>
> But one can coin refreshingly new words
>
> noothana_ookkam = with a renewed vigour/enthusiam
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It does _not_ give the sense of 'puth_ookkam' !!
One can coin words like naveena_ookkam, niyu-ookkam
etc. but they don't enrich the feeling or the
linguistic-eco system. noothana- compounds don't
give the 'power and naturalness' of native words.
> noothana_ERRam = new-found elevated status/position ( pathavi)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
noothana_ERRam ??!!:) :) Viswanath, sure such words can be
coined, but you seem to have missed the essense of what
I was trying to say !
> noothana_aakkam = new-creation ( for example S_Bala's madurai)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This does not sound too bad but still looks
rather dull or pale compared to 'puththaakkam', is it not ?
Why not we can create naveena_aakkam, niyu_aakkam..etc.
The point is puththaakkam, nal_aakkam, pEraakkam,
seRivaakkam, aRivaakkam, ezhilaakkam.... etc. can be
created which enriches the thoughts in a natural way.
If you argue that one can create good_aakkam,
big_aakkam, intense_aakkam, wisdom_aakkam, beauty_aakkam,
.. etc. without realizing what is missing in these,
there is little hope that we can understand each other.
> noothana_urimai koNdaadu = taking new liberties
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does it not give you a strange ring in your ears ??!!
It sounds like a 'strange' urimai to me !! :) :)
> noothana_aRivu peRa vEndum = we have to aquire new-insight/tech..
> noothana_aasai = a new-found infatuation/interest
> noothana_aaval = new-found enthusiasm or renewed-interest
> noothana_irakkam = new-found pity
> noothana_iNakkam = new-found closeness
> noothana_iLamai = new-feeling of youngness
> noothana_oRRumai = new-found unity
All the above combinations don't seem to impart the
Tamil sense !! I thought that the word combinations
I suggested with 'puth_' will give rise to some
puth_eNNam and puththaRivu but I get some 'noothana'
( = strange) argument !! :)
> .......
> ......
> I can go on for a long time.. the main point is one can
>create new words equally well with Tamil roots of Sanskritic
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^
>origin as with Tamil roots of Dravidian origin.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you have proved the opposite !!
puthu will give rise to puthiya, puthumai, puthinam ( novel-story)
prefix 'puth_' and the verb 'puthukku' and noun 'puthukkam',
and 'ethirmaRai = opposite' forms like 'puthukkaa' and
such high-tamil forms like 'puth_anmai' = not_new..
Sure you can substitute any word for 'new' from any language
( not just Skt.) but the effect, strength and beauty
will be lost. For 'puthinam' you can say noothanam or naveenam
but what natural form can you have for 'puthumai' ?
>Hence the argument has to be one of two: one, people don't
>understand the Sanskrit roots, and two, the roots of Sanskrit origin
>don't 'sound' nice.
I think both are applicable. Third, it is an unnecessary
burden .
>
>If it is the first argument, then several conclusions follow.
>First of all, a distinction has to be made between roots that
>people understand and those that people don't. Then, again,
>one might argue (just on this basis) that the same distinction
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>should be made for Tamil words of Dravidian origin, i.e. if there is an old
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Tamil word of Dravidian origin, is it more understood than another one
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that is of Sanskrit origin? If the answer is in the negative, then
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the Tamil word of Sanskrit origin should be preferred.
This is an interesting argument. Some old Tamil words,
although at first looks seem to be strange, they contain
the semantic essense which is vaguely present in other
well known words and thus are more preferable. As I have
often said, one native word actually strengthens many other
native words and it is similar to the ecological balance
of natural geography ( say a rain forest). This is
a geniune argument based on my understanding.
[ Recently, someone in SCTelugu asked some baby-names
meaning surya = sun in "Telugu" and the valaiNYars
provided some 10-to-15 words but _every_ one of them
were Sanskrit !! Not a single word which was Telugu !!
Now try in Tamil:
kathiravan = personification of rays
parithi = huge round !
NYaayiRu = Huge and primary one !
veyyOn = personification of heat !
pagalavan = Day-God
....
....
and one can compose new ones like
oL_aazhi = ocean of brightness [ aazhi means 'ocean'
and 'round']
oLLOn = personification of brightness
More..
sudaraazhi, sudarOn, kathir_kOn, sudar_kOn,
pizhamban, oLir_kOn, ( kOn = King), azhaRkkOn
aNalaazhi, .....
This richness is because of encouraging the native Tamil
words. We will become debilitated in course of time
if we borrow words without some thought and beyond some
limit. Merely because
english borrows or other languages borrow, we should not
ape; because what is suitable for one language might
not be suitable for another.]
>
>I think it is the second argument that most people rely on. In this
>case (and I am sympathetic to this argument), we are not talking
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>about reason and logic. Hence, even if this is the basis on which
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pl. see below.
>we wish to advance the superiority of Tamil words of Dravidian origin,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not superiority, but suitability ( poruththam )
>one should be clear about the emotional/subjective basis of the
>suggestion that is being made.
The second arguement is equally valid. Here again it __has__
reason and logic, except it is more subtle. recall the arguement
of how for tamils it burns as 'sureer' and the tree falls
'mada mada', the raining as 'nachu nachu', the laughing as
'gala, gala' and the fear as 'pada pada' etc. ( some of these
words even take verbal forms 'pada_padaththathu',
muNu_muNuththaan ...e etc. ). I would say _not_
subjective/emotional but 'tamil/dravidian-specific' in a deep
sense.
>
>> Please remember that Tamil is one of the longest living
>> languages and its survival sense is really great. If its
>> speakers respect its strength it will live in glory.
>
>I believe that this is absolutely true. In fact, it is so strong
>that in the appropriate context, foreign borrowings are completely
>Tamilised and go on to strengthen and enrich the language. I didn't
>mention this before, but what I think would happen is that both
>Dravidian and Sanskritic elements in Tamil will coexist with
>slightly different meanings (cf. in English where we have a host of
>such words, e.g. mutton and sheep, veal and calf, craft and knowledge,
>ad almost infinitum).
I am glad you agree. There are a lot of Sanskrit, Portugese,
English and other language words in Tamil already. We can
accept more words if we need. But some thought should be given.
Let us take some examples. If we borrow 'doctor', although
it is contrary to Tamil nature, it is still fine because
it is nearly an isolated word. But if we borrow 'computer'
which is again a very popular word, we are in some kind of
trouble because, we need to borrow words like 'computing'
'computation' 'computational' etc. But if we accept a tamil
word 'kaNi' then we can form 'kaNippu', kaNippiyal ....
Even for 'doctor' if we encourage 'maruththuvar', we can
strengthen 'marundhu', 'marundhakam'(pharmacy), marundhaalai
( pharmaceutical company), 'maruththuvam' = medical field or
medical treatment, maruththuva_manai = hospital etc...
>
>> If objections
>> are raised, those who care for tamil will listen and
>> cooperate. Nobody can force anything ( although some
>> organizations and Govt. etc. can influence to some
>> degree).
>>
>
>I am somewhat bothered by the tone here. I hope that an opinion
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
May be my words are misperceived ? If objections to
importing non-tamil words are raised and explained why
and 'acceptable' tamil words are offered, won't those
who have open mind and care for tamil listen and cooperate ?
I think by 'tone' you mean that I am advocating condemning
those who don't 'accept this arguement and cooperate' ?
No. But I think those who are insisting on using non-tamil
words eventhough good and acceptable tamil words are there
show a certain anti-tamil bias in my opinion. Don't you think so ?!
If I know 'malar' malarthal', malarchchi' are there and
also know that 'poo' pooththal' pooppu, poonthOTTam, poonchOlai
etc. are there, but I say 'I like pushpam', wont you think
I am 'pushing' something ? :) Further, I go on to say
'I like pushpiththal' for 'malarthal' or 'pushpitham' for
malarchchi etc. [ BTW, the copyright on 'pushpiththal and
pushpitham' are mine :) :) don't use without my prior approval !!
:) ] Imagine how it might sound
'pushpiththum pushpikkaatha ardha pushpam pOla' ( = malarndhum
malaraatha paathi malar pOla..'. :( :(
>contradicting the particular logic (but not necessarily the
>policy of using Dravidian roots) put forward by Selva will not
>be condemned out of hand as the words of one who does not 'care' for Tamil.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Okay, I guessed it ! :) Well, I don't think there is any
point in 'condemning' such people. But don't you think
a certain anti-tamil sentiment could be a cause ?
If a group of ecologist come and tell us that such and such act
act can cause serious damage to the system and such and such
things will be good for the eco-system, won't those who
care for the eco-system support ? If pesistently some
violate does it not mean that they don't care for the eco-system ?
We all use the language the way we please. Language
evolves by fascinatingly complex interations of its
_speakers_. Each one of us can contribute in one way or another
individually but collectively the effects are less predictable.
I had offered some of my views in the hope that some people
at least _consider_ with an open mind and the language we speak
will remain as a beautiful and rich medium. For heaven's sake
_please_ don't think that I am 'forcing' my opinion as another
valaiNYar felt !! :) :) We all have ideas and opinions and
and I am sharing mine just as any one else does.
>
>anbudan, (and note I do not say noothana_ookkaththudan
>P.V. Viswanath
anbudan ( thamizh puththERRam peRRu
puththezhuchchiyOdu
puththiLamai ponga
puthaaRRal peruga
mElum mElum vaLarga valarga ena vaazhthtum :)
- Selva
P.S. I am sorry that it is rather long.
Bala SWAMINATHAN
new Tamil words. Quite informative.
>>> puth_aandu = new year
>>> puth_uNaRchi = freshness ( of feeling)
Any other combination other than the above for new year and fresh feeling
would look really odd. For one, I am used to those words. As Selva points
out, because I know what 'puthu' means I can immediately ascertain the
meanings of the other words he had listed anew. For example,
o .--.
. . .___ ._|_ | _ ___ ____ . __
| | |_|_ |_|_ |( \| | / /\ \| | |
|___|(_./ )(_./ ) O | | \)\/ /|__|__|
| / /
could mean rejuvenate or even puththuNarchi! At the same time
____
.___ ._. .___ ______ / o \ _ ___ ____ . __
| |_ | | |_|_ / /\ | _|__\_|( \| | / /\ \| | |
|.__)J |(_./ )O \/ | \_\_//| O | | \)\/ /|__|__|
(___/ /
does not look like a single word. It tells me an interesting meaning, though.
The everlasting juvenility possesed by the gifted maarkaNdEyan could be
termed 'noothana iLamai'. But we should not forget that it is a combination
of two words.
>> noothana_varusham
First of all, it is hard to comprehend what is intended, second of all
this word doesn't (these words don't) tell me who the speaker is (not that
it matters; but the point is we loose some information here). Is s/he
a Tamil or a Malayaalee or ..? May be 'puthu varusham' which is still a
justaposition of two words.
The other interesting word is
o o o
. . .___ .___ .____ .___ .___ . __
| | |_|_ |_|_ | | |_|_ |_|_ | | |
|___|(_./ )(_./ )| | (_./_)(_./_)|__|__|
| / /
It simply talks about a new creation (without even giving a hint on
whether it is good or bad). The best part is that it's meaning is same
irrespective of which part of Tamil Region you come from.
o o
.___ ._. .___ ______ o .___ .___ . __
| |_ | | |_|_ / /\ | ___\_| |_|_ |_|_ | | |
|.__)J |(_./ )O \/ | \__/ |.(_./_)(_./_)|__|__|
(___/ / o_)
It sounds to me like a 'good' creation. May be 'bad' creation to someone,
or 'delicate' creation (a la microprocessor) to someone else.
.___ . ____ ._ _.
|_|_ |/ /\ \/ | \
(_./_)J\)\/ /| | |
(___/ ,___/
As an aside, a word for department is 'thuRai' as everyone knows. But I have
always used the English word department in my conversations..sheesh. I met
someone recently here, who used with such ease the word 'thuRai'
that I started using it without even feeling strange. It is interesting to
see that 'thuRai' could also mean 'discipline' which is a common word for
'branch' in India. So, kaNiththuRai could be Computer Department (either
compuer science or computer engineering). Words specific to computer science
and computer engineering are already available.
natpudan
S_Bala