Reason why I dislike Tamil Nadu
Ravi Krishna
parts of India.
I have recvd lot of queries on why I am such a flame provoking anti
tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
would have been. I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
of reservation. I also dislike TN for their stupid anti hindi stance which
had done no good for their people, instead had created problems only.
I like lot of tamil artist like Shivaji Ganesan , Kamalhassan and the great
Ilayaraja. In fact my Rehman bashing is due to the fact that he has beaten
Iraja ( a fact I could not digest).
Once again I have nothing against tamilians personally , it's only their
stupid stance in some matters provoks me.
S. Ravi Krishna
Lysle J. Kapp
Krishna) wrote:
I'm not a DMK follower or a Brahmin basher for that matter. But as far
as I know, reservation is a Central Government policy. North Indian
forward castes have faced similar problems in their own home states. And
the language issue. Let me suggest that anti-Hindi agitation was a stupid
response to a stupid (and chauvinistic) language policy. It was stupid in
that it tried in vain and without purpose to replace English as the
language of government and commerce. The Tamil reaction was stupid in
that it vilified a language rather than focussing on the inherent
superiority of the two language plan (English and regional tongue).
Your dislike of the people of TN is based upon extremely self involved
arguments. Yes it is unfortunate that you had to leave your home to
receive a good education. But there are many others who have had similar
experiences. Perhaps your ire should be directed towards the government
of TN rather than its people.
Kumar
Indian
>By tamilians I refer to only people from TN and not tamilians living in other
>parts of India.
>
>I have recvd lot of queries on why I am such a flame provoking anti
>tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
>there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
>their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
>education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
>would have been. I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
>of reservation. I also dislike TN for their stupid anti hindi stance which
>had done no good for their people, instead had created problems only.
>
>I like lot of tamil artist like Shivaji Ganesan , Kamalhassan and the great
>Ilayaraja. In fact my Rehman bashing is due to the fact that he has beaten
>Iraja ( a fact I could not digest).
>
>Once again I have nothing against tamilians personally , it's only their
>stupid stance in some matters provoks me.
>
>S. Ravi Krishna
What you are saying here is quite right. I understand this as I
myself am a tamilian brought up in North India.
But what i didn't get right is your illogical Rahman criticism
just because he is a rival to your favorite. One should be
broad-minded irrespective of their likes or dislikes. You
yourself preach this to Tamils from TN, right?
Bye!
Shridhar.
Root Account
>By tamilians I refer to only people from TN and not tamilians living in other
>parts of India.
>
>I have recvd lot of queries on why I am such a flame provoking anti
>tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
>there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
>their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
>education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
>would have been. I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
>of reservation. I also dislike TN for their stupid anti hindi stance which
>had done no good for their people, instead had created problems only.
>
>I like lot of tamil artist like Shivaji Ganesan , Kamalhassan and the great
>Ilayaraja. In fact my Rehman bashing is due to the fact that he has beaten
>Iraja ( a fact I could not digest).
>
>Once again I have nothing against tamilians personally , it's only their
>stupid stance in some matters provoks me.
Life is not fair.
Whether in Bay area or in Madras.
But life is much more unfair in Tamilnadu than in Bay area.
Some people in Tamil Nadu tried to even out the field, so that atleast our
garnd children will have more fair chances than what is out there now.
How do you accomplish that?
Give more to people don't get a chance like schedule caste.
Surely, we could see the effect now.
Being a brahmin is not that coveted one, as it used to be.
We see SC/ST lawyers, judges, doctors. May be they are not competent, than
their peers. But it is ok. Because he sure will bring up a much better
son/daughter than what his/her parents brought him to be.
couple of generation giving up some thing for God's unfavoured children so
that we could try to have a equal society in TN by 2050 or so.
What is the down side?
Painful Transition.
It hurts for the people who have to give up.
Why we have to do it now?
(Personally, i don't give a damn. I have wife/children/couple of crores to
happily live in india or usa.)
If you look at all the civil wars in the history, they all arise from certain
group being treated less than equal. (even the civil war in Sri Lanka)
On your comments on Hindi:
Why Hindi?
Who is that to decide, what is the national language?
(If more than 70% people speak hindi, i could understand hindi being National language)
In a country(India), if a person can't be proud of what he is (tamil speaking,
typical black skin guy with a mustache) what good that being a country.
A person should learn a language by his own necessity or by his like.
Who are you (India) to force it. [India is unique in its language issue,
analogy with other nations doesn't work much]
Ramkumar Rajendran
> By tamilians I refer to only people from TN and not tamilians living in other
> parts of India.
>
> I have recvd lot of queries on why I am such a flame provoking anti
> tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
> there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
> their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
> education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
> would have been. I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
> of reservation. I also dislike TN for their stupid anti hindi stance which
> had done no good for their people, instead had created problems only.
>
> I like lot of tamil artist like Shivaji Ganesan , Kamalhassan and the great
> Ilayaraja. In fact my Rehman bashing is due to the fact that he has beaten
> Iraja ( a fact I could not digest).
>
> Once again I have nothing against tamilians personally , it's only their
> stupid stance in some matters provoks me.
>
> S. Ravi Krishna
>
>
I appreciate that you dislike only people from tamilnadu and not the
tamilians from other parts of India. So you like the tamil people
living in the dharavi slums of Bombay. Do not try to fool others. You
like the Brahmins living in tamilnadu and also outside of tamilnadu.
Do not ever think that the Brahmins will get back the priviliges enjoyed
during the pre-independance period. In tamilnadu you were all kicked and
are gettting kicked badly for all that you did for centuries.
Now the people in other parts of India have followed Tamilnadu's
footsteps and one good example is the
PERIYAR MELA held in UP
I hope from now on atleast you all will try to coexist with the lower
castes like the other forward castes like the mudaliars, karaikudi
chettiars, thakurs etc..,
Ramkumar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is not constant meeting and companionship
But mutual sensibilities that confer the alliance of friendship"
When the lights are out, all women are fair - Plutarch
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Swaminathan.N
> parts of India.
> I like lot of tamil artist like Shivaji Ganesan , Kamalhassan and the great
> Ilayaraja.
You are contradicting yourself buddy. You don't like tamils from TN but you
like some of the cinema artists (who are tamils) from TN. Sounds weird. Can
you explain that. May be we ignorant tamils from TN are not able to
understand your Delhi-ite thoughts.
FYI, every year more than 600000 people take the 'Dakshin Bharat Hindi
Prachar Sabha' examinations. I am one of them. I know better hindi than
many of the Delhi-ites I've met (both in India and in US)
--
Swaminathan.N
Srikanth Raghavan - 4409
On 11 Feb 1996, Ravi Krishna wrote:
> By tamilians I refer to only people from TN and not tamilians living in other
> parts of India.
>
> tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
> there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
> their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
> education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
> would have been. I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
> of reservation. I also dislike TN for their stupid anti hindi stance which
> had done no good for their people, instead had created problems only.
>
> Iraja ( a fact I could not digest).
>
> Once again I have nothing against tamilians personally , it's only their
> stupid stance in some matters provoks me.
>
> S. Ravi Krishna
>
>
I appreciate that you dislike only people from tamilnadu and not the
tamilians from other parts of India. So you like the tamil people
living in the dharavi slums of Bombay. Do not try to fool others. You
like the Brahmins living in tamilnadu and also outside of tamilnadu.
Do not ever think that the Brahmins will get back the priviliges enjoyed
during the pre-independance period. In tamilnadu you were all kicked and
are gettting kicked badly for all that you did for centuries.
Now the people in other parts of India have followed Tamilnadu's
footsteps and one good example is the
PERIYAR MELA held in UP
I hope from now on atleast you all will try to coexist with the lower
castes like the other forward castes like the mudaliars, karaikudi
chettiars, thakurs etc..,
Ramkumar
=============================================================================
Ramkumar,
Please have a look again at ravikrishna's message. Has he brought the
subject of Brahmins in any place in his mail. Why r u so crooked in thoughts.
If u dont accept his views it is perfectly OK. R u such a big thinker who can read
ulterior motives in all others minds. What is the need for bringing Brahmins in
this mail. Is this some sort of DK propaganda. I think with all the mud-slinging
going on the name SCT needs to be changed to SMT (Soc.Mud-slinging.Tamil). One
side people are fighting about LTTE. The next is Brahmins. There seems to be
no culture left in this group.
I have seen lot of mails for/against LTTE/Brahmins/any other community (
I think that is what one gets to read in SCT these days) . But
u have an extraordinary talent making an issue out of air. Kudos to u.
May u live long and serve the Nation.
One thing is sure. SCT is really becoming a trash. It is high time, the name
needs to be changed to reflect its true intent rather than mislead people to
subscribe to the group expecting something interesting.
srikanth
(a tamilian in total frustration on SCT contents)
---
Ramkumar Rajendran
> > I have recvd lot of queries on why I am such a flame provoking anti
> > tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
> > there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
> > their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
> > education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
> > would have been.
I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
> > of reservation.
> =============================================================================
> Ramkumar,
>
> Please have a look again at ravikrishna's message. Has he brought the
> subject of Brahmins in any place in his mail. Why r u so crooked in thoughts.
> If u dont accept his views it is perfectly OK. R u such a big thinker who can read
> ulterior motives in all others minds. What is the need for bringing Brahmins in
> this mail. Is this some sort of DK propaganda. I think with all the mud-slinging
Srikanth
>> I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
> > of reservation.
Could you read ravi krishnan's mail again. Whom does he pity. Brahmins are
the only forward castes who are/were against reservation in Tamilnadu
from Independence. I did not read any ulterior motives in his mail. He
had written a lot about he being proud of being a brahmin and other caste
people being inferior.
Read the previous articles and do not comment only on this article alone.
You would reply again saying isn't that true. True but how, you people
dominated and did not allow the other lower castes to study. And so for
centuries you were educated people "knowing the shastras" while we were
uneducated "shudras".
Just because of reservation for one generation itself you are so pissed
off. Imagine the plight of the low castes for so many centuries.
If U say that I am mad then let it be so. I am Mad at Brahminisim and not
brahmins as such. I hope U must be knowing what I mean by brahminism
i.e thinking very highly of their caste people and others as idiots
"May u live long and serve the Nation."
true I will live long and definitely serve the Nation.
Ramkumar
Jagannath Ayyaswami
for the past 3 years I have been reading SCT ...Idoubt it.)
jagan
another frustrated tamizhan
Srikanth Raghavan - 4409
> > > tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
> > > there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
> > > their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
> > > education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
> > > would have been.
>
> I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
> > > of reservation.
> > =============================================================================
> > Ramkumar,
> >
> > Please have a look again at ravikrishna's message. Has he brought the
> > subject of Brahmins in any place in his mail. Why r u so crooked in thoughts.
> > If u dont accept his views it is perfectly OK. R u such a big thinker who can read
> > ulterior motives in all others minds. What is the need for bringing Brahmins in
> > this mail. Is this some sort of DK propaganda. I think with all the mud-slinging
>
>
> Srikanth
>
> >> I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
> > > of reservation.
>
> Could you read ravi krishnan's mail again. Whom does he pity. Brahmins are
> the only forward castes who are/were against reservation in Tamilnadu
Sorry, I beg to differ here. Let me make some things clear. I am not entering
into an arguement with u regarding reservation is needed in here. But I have
a friend (christian BTW) who also was a forward caste, and he was certainly
against reservations. So Brahmins are not the only people in Forward caste.
First thing is that this is a human tendency. If
some previlage is given to some and not others, the other group be it
"Brahmin" or "christian" or "shudras" or whatever will be against it. So
dont specify that all the people who oppose reservations are "Brahmins".
The platform of argument and misunderstanding here is "previlage" and
not "caste".
=================================
> from Independence. I did not read any ulterior motives in his mail. He
> had written a lot about he being proud of being a brahmin and other caste
> people being inferior.
>
===============================================
As I had specified in my earlier mail I am not a very
frequent reader of SCT (I have noted the reasons in my previous mail)
and I have no idea what he has written before. But if that is the
case u write a personal mail to him. Whatever opinion he has said
is his personal opinion. Everyone need not have the same opinion.
For ur information I have written a personal mail to Ravi Krishna
to refrain from commenting about Tamilians. All that I am saying
is that this is his personal opinion. Write to him and not the net.
===============================================
> Read the previous articles and do not comment only on this article alone.
>
> You would reply again saying isn't that true.
================================================
Not really. I am saying that it is a load of crap to say other
castes are inferior in intelligence. Lot of my friends are there
who are not "brahmins" and are very intelligent.
=================================================
True but how, you people
==================================================
False, I am not really accepting this, and u also dont accept this
==================================================
> dominated and did not allow the other lower castes to study. And so for
> centuries you were educated people "knowing the shastras" while we were
> uneducated "shudras".
>
> Just because of reservation for one generation itself you are so pissed
> off. Imagine the plight of the low castes for so many centuries.
> If U say that I am mad then let it be so. I am Mad at Brahminisim and not
> brahmins as such. I hope U must be knowing what I mean by brahminism
> i.e thinking very highly of their caste people and others as idiots
==================================================
Now u r talking sense. Talk about Brahminism and not "brahmins". Till
now this is the first place u r refering to "brahminism" and not
"brahmins".
==================================================
>
> "May u live long and serve the Nation."
>
==================================================
Sorry for writing this. I had no intention of hurting u.
pun was intended that time but not now. Sorry again.
==================================================
> true I will live long and definitely serve the Nation.
>
> Ramkumar
>
srikanth
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
---
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| o/\o/\ +-------------------------+ Srikanth Raghavan |
| \/\\/\ | DUET TECHNOLOGIES, INC. | Phone: 408-236-7505(Home) |
| /\//\/ +-------------------------+ 408-954-4409(Work) |
| \ \ Email: ragh...@lsil.com |
| srik...@duettech.com |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
N. Padmanabhan
>By tamilians I refer to only people from TN and not tamilians
>living in other parts of India.
>
> provoking anti tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe
> everything to Delhi. I studied
> there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied
> from TN due to their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has
> given me good life , good education.
> Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
> would have been.
> I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
> of reservation.
Mr. Ravi Krishna,
I am from Tamil Nadu and I happen to be born in family of
'vicitims' of reservation system (To quote your words).
I had the opportunity of studying in the North of India. I
picked up Hindi when I felt the need for it. I have come across
many people like you (Non TamilNadu Tamilians).
Given your backgorund (as mentioned you in your mail), it is
no surprise that you have such an opinion. You must have
sympathised a lot with the suffering of some of you forward
community friends/relatives because of the reservation system.
Your sympathies are with a person who had the necessary social
background to be 'intelligent' but could not get a chance to
pursue professional education.
But you fail to see the fact that generations of people
belonging to the suppressed communities have been denied
a chance to become as 'intelligent' as your friend/relative.
Now there is a chance for them to make up for this generations
of 'Intelligence Gap'.
The forward community folks belong (on an average) to Middle
class or above. They are intelligent/fortunate enough to express
their problems and make it visible. While the suppressed
communities neither had the chance of expressing their
problems nor did they have the 'intelligence' to express
themselves. The situation in Tamil Nadu now is different and
in these aspects a lot better.
While in many parts of north India the situation has not changed
and only the voices of the 'poor Forward community' reaches
people like you and impresses upon you.
At this point of time I wish to raise a question about the
invisible reservation that always works in favour of the
rich people who can get their 'Managment Quota' seats. How
many vicitims of the Caste based reservation system immolated
themselves against this ? In India whatever the rich and
powerful do does not catch the eyes of people like you. While
the fact that you loose your seats to some Dark guy who doesn't
even speak good English (Most important factor in deciding
capabilities) hurts you, because you are so much used seeing
him do meanial jobs. Right ? YES, these realities have changed
in Tamil Nadu. I am not asking you like it. But I ask you
accept the way history unfurls itslef. We are seeing a similar
phenomenon picking up in U.P. too. Soon you will have reasons
to hate it.
By saying all these I shall not extrapolated to be some
supporter of the Dravidan parties. I do accept that excesses
take place against Brahmins in Tamil Nadu sometimes and I am
not asking you accept such things. At the same time, I ask you
to turn your attention to other parts of India where upper caste
men can get away after raping a lady social worker.
At this stage I wish to state that I am not defending the
present reservation system fully. The problem is not only
with the present reservation system, But it is with the present
SYSTEM. In every part of life in India there is corruption.
Those who are crooked enough, make use of this system which
is full of ( and purposefully kept full of) loop holes. So
reservation is system is no exception.
In my opinion, the suppressed community folks need to abstain
from Brahmin bashing which just helps in hurting a poor
(economically) Brahmin guy, while the richer among the
forward community always make it to higher places through
their invisible reservation system called Management quota /
recommendation vacancies. If you look at Tamil Nadu today, no
party can get votes because it happens to a Brahmin basher. So
that end is also being take care of by the 'Dark Dravidian - Madaraasi'
population's NOT-SO-INTELLIGENT opinion.
> I also dislike TN for their stupid anti
> hindi stance which had done no good for their people,
> instead had created problems only.
>
Speaking a language or not speaking a language is a matter of
need and choice. If Tamilians don't want to speak a particular
language why is it such a big problem ? Do you think the people
of the north bother to pick up any other unrelated language ?
Do you know many North Indians who hail from places like Delhi
don't even know four different languages are spoken in south
India ? People learn a language out of NEED and not for any
other reason. In fact, if Tamilians are ensured jobs because of
speaking Hindi, they would have certainly done it. It is not that
Tamilians personally want to wipe Hindi. It is just that don't
want to bother about and most importantly be bothered by it. If
you think it is India's unity that is at stake, I would say, you
better check the spelling of the word. UNITY and UNIFORMITY
are two different issues. The states Punjab and Kashmir speak
a lot more Hindi compared to TamilNadu. But that does not seem
to have helped.
>Once again I have nothing against tamilians personally , it's
> only their stupid stance in some matters provoks me.
Perception of stupidity is relative to one's own perception. If any
opinion seems not fit with your frame of logic, you can't conclude
that as stupidity. Your logic could be wrong.
>
>S. Ravi Krishna
I LOVE TAMILIANS AND TAMIL NADU. I AM PROUD OF BEING A TAMILIAN.
Padmanbhan.
VTAMAnyNet
A sensible, decent, not-prejudiced, unbiased posting in SCT after a long long time.
Senthil
>
mmani
>
>By tamilians I refer to only people from TN and not tamilians living in other
>parts of India.
>
>I have recvd lot of queries on why I am such a flame provoking anti
>tamilians. The reason is simple. I owe everything to Delhi. I studied
>there and I wouldn't have got this education had I studied from TN due to
>their stupid reservation policy. Delhi has given me good life , good
>education. Had I been brought up in TN I wouldn't have imagined where I
>would have been. I really pity those briliant people in TN who are victims
>had done no good for their people, instead had created problems only.
>
>
I am a tamilian born and brought up in Delhi. But I also had a chance
to live in Madras for three years. I would say both cities have their up's and down.
I found the people of Delhi crude and uncultured. (the so called punjabi
culture!). Although I am not a great fan of "Madrasis" I would say
they are little bit more cultured (or civilized shall we say)than
"Delhiites". It could be coming
from their god fearing nature and the imperial influence.
A woman can walk on the streets of Madras even at 10 oclock at niht without being bothered.
Madras is also good if you enjoy classical music or drama or any such
cultural activity. Delhi is a cultural vacuuam.
In Madras you can always get a respite from your daily routine
by going to the beach or the cultural hubs.
In terms of other things/people (say politicians, auto-drivers etc.)
I would say both cities are equally bad.
Last but not the least I would say Delhi has more pretty women than Madras!
Mani
Pattabiraman Subramanian
> In article <4fjcd9$g...@news.informix.com>, rkri...@informix.com (Ravi Krishna) says:
I am an tamilian brought up in Bombay (Mumbai!!). I studied uptill
my 4th std in Madras. After that I had all my education in Bombay. I go
to Madras to visit my grandparents EVERY year. Although I feel so nice
and nostalgic about Madras when in Bombay, once I land up in Madras I begin
to dislike the city. It starts with the Autorickshaw drivers, whose
standard statement is "meter ku mele 10 rubaa sir!!". There is not a single
guy I have seen who will just go by the meter fare.
Also travelling in a PTC bus in Madras is an experience for people not
accustomed to it. First of all there is the partition for ladies and gents
for the seats. There is no way a guy can sit in the ladies seat even it
is empty and there is no lady around. Ofcourse seating next to a lady is
totally out of question.
> A woman can walk on the streets of Madras even at 10 oclock at niht
> without being bothered.
I am not sure about this thing. I have always felt that the people
from Madras (brought up in Madras!) are more lecherous then the guys in
the north. I feel this is due to the seemingly orthodox upbringing of the
children in Madras. People want to show to others that they are very pious
and religious (This can be seen from all the nammam's and vibhuti smeared
on their heads!) when they are actually not.
> Madras is also good if you enjoy classical music or drama or any such
> cultural activity. Delhi is a cultural vacuuam .
This is very true! i totally agree with this. I miss those S.V.Sekar dramas
I used to go when i was young.
> Last but not the least I would say Delhi has more pretty women than
> Madras!
Could be said about bombay too!
These are just my viewpoint, people are free to disagree,
-------
Pattabiraman
ra...@ece.iit.edu
Senthil
Padmanabhan saar, kalakiteenga ! Antha Management Quota point super !
Ivvalavu naal enga saar iruntheenga ?! appo appo, intha mathiri
discussion ellam koncham post pannunga !
Seriously speaking it was great to read your posting, a far cry from the
'discussions' that are being posted currently in this newsgroup. Thank
you !
Chenthu
Kannan Murugan
>
>
>
>But you fail to see the fact that generations of people
>belonging to the suppressed communities have been denied
>a chance to become as 'intelligent' as your friend/relative.
>Now there is a chance for them to make up for this generations
>of 'Intelligence Gap'.
>
Good point. I couldn't agree with you more. As a person coming from a
small town, I have seen lot of folks not getting any opportunity to pursue
higher education. Yes! we do need the resevation system. But the way it is
implemented should be changed. May be they should change the reservation
system such that sons/daughters of the person who used the reservation system to
get a job or a proffesional degree, are not eligible to use the reservation
system. By that way, it might reach the poor and really backward people.
>
>I LOVE TAMILIANS AND TAMIL NADU. I AM PROUD OF BEING A TAMILIAN.
>
So am I.
>Padmanbhan.
>
stay cool,
Murugan K.
pgg...@computer.net
I would like to delineate both areas.
"N. Padmanabhan" <NarasimhanX...@ccm.jf.intel.com> wrote:
>I am from Tamil Nadu and I happen to be born in family of
>'vicitims' of reservation system (To quote your words).
You have put the word victims in quotes, presumably this means that
you personally do not agree with this characterization. Looking at a handy
Oxford American disctionary a victim (n)" is a person who is injured or
killed by another or as a result of an occurrence". I think you will agree
that if as a result of my caste I am deprived of admission into colleges
of my choice by the decision of the majority despite having secured higher
marks than the majority of others who secured admission I could qualify as
a victim sans quotes ?
>I had the opportunity of studying in the North of India. I
>picked up Hindi when I felt the need for it. I have come across
>many people like you (Non TamilNadu Tamilians).
>
>
>But you fail to see the fact that generations of people
>belonging to the suppressed communities have been denied
>a chance to become as 'intelligent' as your friend/relative.
>Now there is a chance for them to make up for this generations
>of 'Intelligence Gap'.
Here I agree with you. people deprived by generations of neglect
should be given opportunities. By a seperate post still extent in this
NG I asked the valid question of what the percent should be:
20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,94,96,98,100% ? This question has not been picked
up and answered by anyone. There is also a corrolary question. Should the
reservation be based upon economic grounds or caste grounds? Should the
persons and families who have benefited from reservations in the last two
generations( these reservations have been in existence with increasing
virulence or strength depending upon one's personal views)
since at least the 50's. continue to get the privilege ? And should so
called forward castes that have fallen by the wayside in the last two
generations be similarly be shifted from the have nots to the have's?
>The forward community folks belong (on an average) to Middle
>class or above. They are intelligent/fortunate enough to express
>their problems and make it visible.
I do not know your experience, but if you go to the villages and small
towns you have a large number of 'forwards' who have fallen to poverty and
ignorance.
While the suppressed >communities neither had the chance of expressing
their > problems nor did they have the 'intelligence' to express
>themselves. The situation in Tamil Nadu now is different and
>in these aspects a lot better.
I agree, but still the hatred exists. See the inane posts here as
proof.
>
>While in many parts of north India the situation has not changed
>and only the voices of the 'poor Forward community' reaches
>people like you and impresses upon you.
You are probably right here.
>At this point of time I wish to raise a question about the
>invisible reservation that always works in favour of the
>rich people who can get their 'Managment Quota' seats. How
>many vicitims of the Caste based reservation system immolated
>themselves against this ? In India whatever the rich and
>powerful do does not catch the eyes of people like you. While
>the fact that you loose your seats to some Dark guy who doesn't
>even speak good English (Most important factor in deciding
>capabilities) hurts you, because you are so much used seeing
>him do meanial jobs. Right ? YES, these realities have changed
>in Tamil Nadu. I am not asking you like it. But I ask you
>accept the way history unfurls itslef. We are seeing a similar
>phenomenon picking up in U.P. too. Soon you will have reasons
>to hate it.
I agree that history unfurls itself in ways that one does not like.
It does not mean one accepts injustice or worse. Would you have said
looking at the gas oven in Tribelinka that unfortunately that is how the
cookie crumbled ? One can sitting comfortably in the West say, that is how
one has to accept reality: I agree there are two types of reality. The
reality of the backward caste who is hounded by all other castes( as can
be seen by wanton murders of Harijans in TN villages) and the hunted and
haunted B who is also escoriated by all other castes. The one's who are
benefiting are not the backward castes but those in between: the educated
and not so forward classes. I think that there should be a more fair
definition to prevent exploitation by the new middle and upper classes.
>By saying all these I shall not extrapolated to be some
>supporter of the Dravidan parties. I do accept that excesses
>take place against Brahmins in Tamil Nadu sometimes and I am
>not asking you accept such things. At the same time, I ask you
>to turn your attention to other parts of India where upper caste
>men can get away after raping a lady social worker.
It also happens in Tamil Nadu but the perpetrator is generally a
an upper caste non B. The days of the exploitative B are thankfully past.
>At this stage I wish to state that I am not defending the
>present reservation system fully. The problem is not only
>with the present reservation system, But it is with the present
>SYSTEM. In every part of life in India there is corruption.
>Those who are crooked enough, make use of this system which
>is full of ( and purposefully kept full of) loop holes. So
>reservation is system is no exception.
I entirely agree.
>In my opinion, the suppressed community folks need to abstain
>from Brahmin bashing which just helps in hurting a poor
>(economically) Brahmin guy, while the richer among the
>forward community always make it to higher places through
>their invisible reservation system called Management quota /
>recommendation vacancies. If you look at Tamil Nadu today, no
>party can get votes because it happens to a Brahmin basher. So
>that end is also being take care of by the 'Dark Dravidian - Madaraasi'
>population's NOT-SO-INTELLIGENT opinion.
But B bashing is still one of the sine qua nons. Also, the way B's get
ahead is through national outlets, like IIT's, REC's, Catholic colleges
that do not discriminate between non-catholics. In jobs, B's have outlets
in the All India Services, in the West and in the private sector. These
avenues are also being threatened.
>Speaking a language or not speaking a language is a matter of
>need and choice. If Tamilians don't want to speak a particular
>language why is it such a big problem ? Do you think the people
>of the north bother to pick up any other unrelated language ?
>Do you know many North Indians who hail from places like Delhi
>don't even know four different languages are spoken in south
>India ? People learn a language out of NEED and not for any
>other reason. In fact, if Tamilians are ensured jobs because of
>speaking Hindi, they would have certainly done it. It is not that
>Tamilians personally want to wipe Hindi. It is just that don't
>want to bother about and most importantly be bothered by it. If
>you think it is India's unity that is at stake, I would say, you
>better check the spelling of the word. UNITY and UNIFORMITY
> are two different issues. The states Punjab and Kashmir speak
>a lot more Hindi compared to TamilNadu. But that does not seem
>to have helped.
I agree with this. But I think a common Indian link language
is necessary from a long term standpoint and I hope the 21st century
provides a lessening of linguistic tensions that can help this come about.
But I am probably harboring a false hope.
>
>Perception of stupidity is relative to one's own perception. If any
>opinion seems not fit with your frame of logic, you can't conclude
>that as stupidity. Your logic could be wrong.
I agree but hate is not logic. If the reservation policy was the product
of reasoned thinking & not on the basis of the DK,DMK&AIDMK et al
exploiting passions and hatreds it might not have been such a bad means to
a good end.
>I LOVE TAMILIANS AND TAMIL NADU. I AM PROUD OF BEING A TAMILIAN.
I love people who subscribe to the premise that you accept a person for
what he or she is and not where he comes from or what caste he is. I am
for the ending of the caste system through inter marriage. I also am proud
of the twin heritages that I come from, Tamil and Indian.
Cheers Gopal
>Padmanbhan.
Balasubramaniam santhanam
type of policy exists in the U.S. and is called
"Affirmative action".
The way I see it there can be only two types of justifications for
the reservation policy in TN
1) Purposes of Retribution: To get a equillibrium after abuse
2) Purposes of Rehabilitation: To rehabilitate the people who
were genuinely affected by the caste system.
With regards to the first argument, the question arises as to
what amount of retribution is actually enough? Remember the SC
people were degraded through century after century. How much retribution
is enough. Is this policy to continue on for ever. Do not try to
delude oneself by assuming that this does not harm anybody else.
There are a lot of deserving FC people being denied opportunities.
The second argument on the otherhand is more realistic and
I whole heartedly agree that these people need to be helped. Here's
where the present Reservation Policy fails to rehabilitate the
people who really need it
a) There are no income limits on the person who can benefit. So there
are many rich SC people, who don't need the rehabilitation, who
still enjoy the benefits (Politicians, etc.)
b) The policy has a superficial effect of helping a hand full of
people, but does not get to the poor people who really need it.
There are classes of SC people who have remained poor with no
change in their standard of living.
c) The reservation policy which is supposed to help these people
is being manipulated by these goondas (politicians)
who come in one after the other, with no vision to
help these people, but there to
milk the system for what it's worth.
--
Balasubramaniam santhanam
Georgia Tech, School of Electrical Engineering, Atlanta, GA 30332
USENET: ...!{allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,ulysses}!gatech!eedsp!$me
INTERNET: $m...@eedsp.gatech.edu
daniel jebaraj
excellent post....keep them coming!..
regards
daniel jebaraj
>
Sumanth Soundararajan
anti-Brahminism on SCT" - Clemson U.!
Let me get back at some of the insane, rabid anti-Brahmin types on this
newsgroup..
The 'types' would mostly mean the formidable Dan Jebaraj! What logic
permeates the mind when there is only intention and pre-meditation.
My hats off to you, Dan, you are the most persistent, mean little
anti-Brahmin guy on the planet!
You guys say, "I AM A TAMIL 'cos XXYY..." , but you never think of the
fact that you are talking about a LINGUISTIC culture, and not an ETHNIC
one.
Look, am I not a Tamil because I listen to Hindi film music; because I
watch Hollywood flicks?
Where does a Brahmin, or just about any "Forward caste" guy fit in your
society - the dungeon perhaps??
Your reasons to hate, despise and loathe a community :
For thousands of years, Brahmin folk have burnt, pillaged, and worst of
all, excluded "the dark Dravidians" from their social lives..
Brahmins are just guilty, guilty, guilty...
Brahmins discriminate, cheat, lie, hurt, deprive and destroy...
For thousands of years, Brahmins have given hell to the native people of
Tamil Nadu.....
Nothing gives me the impression that Dan won't put all Brahmins onto
concentration camps given half a chance.
I have nothing to say to you poor souls!
Good luck on your search for the good life!
Tragic bastards. I feel sorry you won't EVER get a life!
Cheers,
Sumanth.
daniel jebaraj wrote:
>
> From article <4g0isd$m...@news.jf.intel.com>, by "N. Padmanabhan" <NarasimhanX...@ccm.jf.intel.com>:
> > rkri...@informix.com (Ravi Krishna) wrote:
> >>By tamilians I refer to only people from TN and not tamilians
> >>living in other parts of India.
>
> excellent post....keep them coming!..
>
> regards
>
> daniel jebaraj
>
>
WITH GOD AS OUR DEFENDER
SUMANTH SOUNDARARAJAN
201, Oak Street, #13,
Clemson,
SC 29631.
Phone : 803-653-8249.
________________________________________________________________________
Davis Jebaraj
[ a clear and thought provoking article]
Mr.Padmanabhan,
Your article was really good and the response that it has received from people
also rekindles the hopes of creating a casteless TN.
There are however some people who have taken exception to this just becos you
have showed the capitation issue in the right light.
>I LOVE TAMILIANS AND TAMIL NADU. I AM PROUD OF BEING A TAMILIAN.
>Padmanbhan.
Proud to be a Tamilian and Asian.
davis.
Srikanth Gopalan
: But you fail to see the fact that generations of people
: belonging to the suppressed communities have been denied
: a chance to become as 'intelligent' as your friend/relative.
: Now there is a chance for them to make up for this generations
: of 'Intelligence Gap'.
Mr.Padmanabhan,
May I congratulate you on a very well thought out
essay. The only point I would like to add is a comment to the above
statement. While affirmative action is necessary, what is your take on
the people actually benefitting from the present affirmative action
policy in TN? Note that I am not challenging your views, only
requesting a clarification. My own opinion (of course I have no hard
data to support what I am saying and it is purely formed from
observation) is that the people who are in real need of affirmative
action are not the ones who are taking recourse to it. Are median
incomes of beneficiaries of AA available from any source? Of course
you could argue that income is not necessarily the only criterion to
go by and that these families don't have the culture of education
ingrained in them and hence are deserving of AA. But then we are not
really talking about lack of opportunities.
Thanks again for a very balanced post.
-Srikanth Gopalan
Ravi Krishna
First let me congratulate you for writing a well researched article.
Did it ever occur to you that why prestigious institutions like IIT and IIM
still are considered to be the best in India and also one of the BEST in the
world. It's because they don't have a reservation system. ( well actually
they have but that's negligible). If tommorrow some nut decides to introduce
reservation system there also (as in TN ) let me assure you
these prestigious institutions will finish. The point I am tryint to say is
that reservation system is a compromise on merit which is totally
unacceptable in any society. Give all the benefits to the backward
community in the form of finacial aid, nutritious food but don't compromise
on quality of students admitted in colleges. Take Chartered Accountancy for
example. It has no reservation system and no wonder passing it even today is
considered very very tough and hence it is still well respected.
People from Gujarat , Maharashtra , Orissa , Bengal etc also love their
mother tongue , but they also learn Hindi because they know that Hindi is the
most useful and widely spoken language in India. Only a fool (which
incidentally most tamilians in TN are) will try to underestimate the
importance of Hindi. TN can easily learn Hindi without sacrificing tamil.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
In article <4ggb8t$8...@news.informix.com>, rkri...@informix.com (Ravi Krishna) writes:
|> Hi ,
|>
|> First let me congratulate you for writing a well researched article.
|>
|> People from Gujarat , Maharashtra , Orissa , Bengal etc also love their
|> mother tongue , but they also learn Hindi because they know that Hindi is the
|> most useful and widely spoken language in India. Only a fool (which
|> incidentally most tamilians in TN are) will try to underestimate the
|> importance of Hindi. TN can easily learn Hindi without sacrificing tamil
Hindi is sanskritised on a daily basis. It is
just a ploy to introduce sanskrit through the back door.
For this all kinds of excuse is thrown.
Majority of TN has
already rejected Hindi. Why are you singing oppari
here. Tamil people have chosen to communicate
with the Central Govt. in English.
Kathiravan
M.Ranganathan
Ah but the Central Govt. has chosen to communicate with "Tamil People" in
Hindi. So we have two one way communication channels. "Tamil People" and
"Hindi Karans" talk at each other rather than speak to each other.
And how do you know what "Tamil people have chosen" ?
Truth be told - Tamil people mostly know neither English nor Hindi.
Tamil people should not need to talk to the Central government so much.
Tamil people should concentrate their energies on things other than
learning languages, bashing Brahmins, making speeches and fighting.
Making money is not a bad alternative to these activities.
And who the devil am I to be telling the Tamil people what to do ?
Ah - theres your hook for an attack.
It really matters little. Any move to make any language the "official"
language is bogus. Its simply a matter of need. Those who need to
communicate will find a way to do so - in sign language if need be.
Tamil people who live in Delhi had better learn Hindi. Hindi Karans
(or "indi garans") and saibus who live in Saidapet had better learn
Tamil.
Incidentally - your statement that Tamil people should use English to talk
to the Central Govt. is a as servile a position as saying they need to
learn Hindi to talk to the Central Govt. You seem to have forgotten the
legacy of the oh so loving British who kicked our ass for 200 years.
Edward
I was born in Tamil Nadu. Been there for all 21 years of my schooling
and education. Then got a job in Bangalore, now I am in US.
My parents speak Tamil, my neighbours speak Tamil. My friends speak
either Tamil or English in my college. In Bangalore, I needed a bit
of Kannada, so I picked it up, though it was not a necessity. But I
felt I could be better off with a bit of Kannada. At home, DD was
never my favourite channel... you know the standard programs, don't
you?
Now give me one reason, why I should have learnt Hindi? Can't you
see learning a language is just a matter of need or interest rather
than it being a National language? I don't have anything againt Hindi.
If I were employed in Bombay, I would have learnt Hindi. And there
ends the story.
So people stop bickering about who should learn what language... it is
just a matter of personal needs and interests.
Ed
Subbiah Rajagopalan
The reservation policy in Tamil Nadu is the best in India. Without the
reservation policy, many backward community people would have never seen
school or college.
Iyers should remember that they abused other casts only forty years ago.
Remember that other caste people were forced to carry their shoes and other
foot wear in their hands when passing through a Brahmin colony.
Why is it so hard for you militant Iyers and Iyengars to accept your past
mistakes and accept resrvation policy that gives a decent chance for athi
thravidars and scheduled tribes in TN?
Even in a country like USA, there are reservation policies called affirmative
action programs. TN is just good the way it is. Fuck you, ass hole! Who
cares if you don't like TN! Stay where you please! Why don't you go to TN
and do some reserach on the past brutalities of Iyers and Iyengars? When it
comes to the pay back time it really hurts, eh?! I know many Iyers and
Iyengars in TN and they are not complaining. Go to hell those who don't like
TN!
Subbiah
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
Reread my reply. I did not say should. I said Tamils
have decided to speak in English with the center.
Their elected representatives made that choice.
Kathiravan
Davis Jebaraj
>Incidentally - your statement that Tamil people should use English to talk
>to the Central Govt. is a as servile a position as saying they need to
>learn Hindi to talk to the Central Govt. You seem to have forgotten the
>legacy of the oh so loving British who kicked our ass for 200 years.
They probably kicked you so hard that you landed in the midst of their
(brtish/european) greatest success story. Lucky you didn'nt crash land
in Africa!!
Anyway, what kind of a language (dead/alive) does Mr. Ranganathan have in
mind for use as a link language?
davis.
daniel jebaraj
> Hindi. So we have two one way communication channels. "Tamil People" and
> "Hindi Karans" talk at each other rather than speak to each other.
> And how do you know what "Tamil people have chosen" ?
we know cause that was the reason that tn faced the indian army. have
u forgotten that india behaved like a colonial power when it
surpressed the anti hindi agitation? the mmda building in madras
bears the name 'thazha muthu natarajan mazhigai'. from what i know
these two guys were the first martyrs for this cause, martyred at the
hands of police goons defending the indian state.
>
> Truth be told - Tamil people mostly know neither English nor Hindi.
> Tamil people should not need to talk to the Central government so much.
except for the fortunate like ya..
>
> Tamil people should concentrate their energies on things other than
> learning languages, bashing Brahmins, making speeches and fighting.
> Making money is not a bad alternative to these activities.
we need to establish our rights before we start makin money. and
incidentally is the rest of india busy makin money? there are few other
countries in this world that are in a worse position when compared to
india. the entire country runs on a parallel economy, the only one
of it's kind. the indian government is busy fighting it's citizens on
more than one front with the mighty indian army. in fact rarely has the
army been used in actual combat. the only thing that the indian army
has been trained well is in the butchering of innocent civilians.
>
> And who the devil am I to be telling the Tamil people what to do ?
> Ah - theres your hook for an attack.
well are u not tamil?
>
> It really matters little. Any move to make any language the "official"
> language is bogus. Its simply a matter of need. Those who need to
> communicate will find a way to do so - in sign language if need be.
> Tamil people who live in Delhi had better learn Hindi. Hindi Karans
> (or "indi garans") and saibus who live in Saidapet had better learn
> Tamil.
true...
>
> Incidentally - your statement that Tamil people should use English to talk
> to the Central Govt. is a as servile a position as saying they need to
> learn Hindi to talk to the Central Govt. You seem to have forgotten the
> legacy of the oh so loving British who kicked our ass for 200 years.
>
this is a stupid statement. even the french and germans are learning
english to survive. the only reason that we are here is cause we
were taught english at an early age. to say that it is a colonial
legacy is mere stupidity. and while we are at gettin rid of colonial
legacies why not get rid of another colonial legacy, india?
daniel
>
Ravi Krishna
>The fact that IIT's are one of the best is because they
>have good faculty, good facilities and most importantly
>an atmosphere where a student is more under positive influences.
>External influences play a major role in the intellectual
>upbringing of a student. In IIT a student gets positively
>observed for his academic performance. While in other colleges the
>negative influences of the society are higher. This negative attribute
>of regional colleges is not specific to Tamil Nadu.
Please add this also:- because IIT takes the cream of the society regardless
of caste , creed etc. My elder brother is a professor in IIT Bombay. They
have done studies of performance of students in IIT who got into IIT thru
their reservation quota ( well it is very few ). The conclusion:-
Student thru reservation in IIT perform pathetically compared to others.
There avg CGPA is far less then other students.
>I am a student of IIT and I did my bachelor's degree from PSG Tech,
>Coimbatore. In my observation the quality of education in PSG was quite
>Okay and there are seats available under reservation system in PSG too.
>I, will with all my emphasis, state that the students who got their
>seats through reservation system are no reason for the poor quality of
>education.
I think someone should explain why people from TN who got into colleges thru
reservation quota can't get into national colleges with far less
reservation. In other words basis of comparison in TN colleges is incorrect
because the compettion is within TN only. To judge correctly it should be
taken on a all India basis like IIT.
>I request you to weigh the positive influences of bringing many people
>to average levels against taking few people to very high levels. Any
>nation will truly improve if the overall level improves and not just
>by few (economically/socially) privileged people excelling.
I also request you to consider the plight of those students who can't get
into colleges inspite of high marks. BTW why should the policy of
reservation extended in jobs also. Having got the education thru quota why
should anyone continue to get the reservation benefit in promotion etc.This
is what is happening in Banks , public sectors etc. Perhaps the answer is
the absurd policy of bringing to parity the underpriviledged lot. WOW. What a
great policy. "To hell with efficieny and merit. We want only mediocre people
to run the country."
>Well, Mr. Krishna, I would really appreciate it if you stick to good
>language. I suggest you resort to positive forms of emphasis. That
>would really help in keeping the quality of our interaction high.
Sorry.
>To answer your question : By management quota, I mean Capitation fee
>seats. The seats one can buy through one's monetary power. There is a
>college called Ramaiah College in Bangalore which is notoriously known
>for the number of seats through Management quota. An engineering seat
>used to cost 1 lakh and medical seat used to cost 10+ lakhs. What about
>the quality of education of these people and their performance in their
>professions ? Many economically privileged students of this college
>are known for their notoriety in Bangalore.
>Many of them come from rich families in North India. They do every
>thing other than studies.
I agree with you. Capitation fee colleges are a disgrace to any society and
should be banned.
>Many of these guys through their parent's influence will make it to high
>places in companies. And they continue to pollute the society.
I think we are diagressing from our topic.
>At this point, I wish to pose a question to you about the comparative
>importance that is given to the International Language - English given
>in northern states. Tamil Nadu certainly (statistically,
>administratively) has greater acceptance and practice of English. I
>wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of 'resisting' other
>languages show no 'hatred' for English ?
Excellent. This is the same question which I have asked in my threads. I
find this as double standards.
>It would be useful, in my opinion, for tamilians to learn languages
>such as German, French and Japanese which are foreign to Tamil , like
>Hindi.
>They can look forward to getting more jobs that way.
I am also posting this article in SCT.
Bye.
*************************************************************************
* S. Ravi Krishna *
* rkri...@informix.com *
*************************************************************************
Raghu Seshadri
: Why is it so hard for you militant Iyers and Iyengars to accept your past
: mistakes and accept resrvation policy that gives a decent chance for athi
: thravidars and scheduled tribes in TN?
....
: Stay where you please! Why don't you go to TN
: and do some reserach on the past brutalities of Iyers and Iyengars? When it
: comes to the pay back time it really hurts, eh?!
I am not a militant anything, and
my post has nothing to do with
reservation. I have a question
for Subbiah.
When you use words like "your past
mistakes" and "payback time", you
are not using these words in the
same way as the rest of the world
does, do you ? If I address someone
and refer to his past mistakes,
I mean HIS mistakes, NOT those of
his ancestors. You obviously think
that the mistakes of one's ancestors
are the SAME as one's own mistakes !!
Does this make any sense ?
If one of your ancestors murdered
someone, is it OK to talk about it
to you as "your past mistake" and
then hang you as "payback time" ?
I think my great-grandfather and I
are two different persons. What do you
think ?
RS
Srikanth Gopalan
: Only a fool (which
: incidentally most tamilians in TN are) will try to underestimate the
: importance of Hindi. TN can easily learn Hindi without sacrificing tamil.
Your comments on reservation notwithstanding, please keep this force
feeding hindi to yourself. The people of TN do not _repeat_ do not
need hindi to earn a living. They will learn hindi if the necessity
arises when they live in a hindi speaking state.
-Srikanth Gopalan (a fluent hindi speaker)
Shiv
> Perhaps the answer is
> the absurd policy of bringing to parity the underpriviledged lot. WOW. What a
> great policy. "To hell with efficieny and merit. We want only mediocre people
> to run the country."
'bringing to parity the underpriviledged lot' is not an absurd policy as you think. Policy
makers were right on target and you, even with another ten years of education can never
understand that. The problem is not in the policy but in how long the policy needs to be
maintained and on what basis. One based on economics would have been a boon and a double edged
sword. While the system then would have truly given the opportunity to the have nots, teh
system would also have collected the proper taxes that for decades have been evaded. Probably
more black money would be floating (For which I do have a solution). One can argue that the
question of haves and havenots is a matter of the FCs and BCs, the SC/STs. I'll touch on this
as a reply to another post (raghu seshadri's)
> I agree with you. Capitation fee colleges are a disgrace to any society and
> should be banned.
You seem to be far from reality. Education is big business in india. Try getting a kid
admission into a good school. And see how much you have to pay. Right from KG to high school.
If you want a good education you have to pay for it. Government help to schools is far from
adequate. You have the choice, put your kid in some government school or send them to DB,
VM... Lets see if your righteous indignation or your kids future is more important. When push
comes to shove your money will not be where your mouth is. India can never in the near future
or a couple of decades, bring parity among its education institutions.
> >At this point, I wish to pose a question to you about the comparative
> >importance that is given to the International Language - English given
> >in northern states. Tamil Nadu certainly (statistically,
> >administratively) has greater acceptance and practice of English. I
> >wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of 'resisting' other
> >languages show no 'hatred' for English ?
>
> Excellent. This is the same question which I have asked in my threads. I
> find this as double standards.
Again, people from Rome seem to assume Rome's solutions to Rome's problems should solve
Carthage's problems. Even before the anti-hindi stance in TN, more people were learning hindi
in TN than in many other pro-hindi states. Tamils are not habitual of resisting 'other
languages', only hindi. Very simply, we resent the imposition of any language over ours.
Both you guys seem to live in your own worlds. We all want to solve all the problems. Some of
us understand the logistics. Some of us just go ballistic.
Questions if you answer may help you understand. Read this slowly and absorb it.
What % of indians speak hindi? What % of indians who speak hindi can read and write hindi? What
% of people can read and write their native tongue? What % of people can go school, can get an
education? What % have to scrape together enough to afford one meal a day?
> >It would be useful, in my opinion, for tamilians to learn languages
> >such as German, French and Japanese which are foreign to Tamil , like
> >Hindi.
> >They can look forward to getting more jobs that way.
Again you two seem to miss out on reality. The people you are referring to form a minority.
People would call this 'trickle down' economics. The problem is when you exclude a large
percentage with your intellectual idealism, you are in fact planting fodder for a revolution.
One who is accostomed to declare war from the couch will find it very unpalatable to be on the
streets when people begin to lose their reason.
I know what role hindi plays. But try telling the peope that hindi is the answer, the way. All
their travails will be solved. Once they learn hindi, they will get jobs in - ...halli, ...ur,
...palayam. They can look forward to two meals a day. Idealism seldom is in touch with
reality. And reality is something that we cannot ignore.
--
*******************************************************************************
All views/opinions expressed by me are mine and mine only. Those who disagree,
please pick a number and await your turn. - Shiv.
_____
| |
| 102 |
|_____|
*******************************************************************************
Suresh Rajan
|>
|> <moronic drivel deleted>
|> People from Gujarat , Maharashtra , Orissa , Bengal etc also love their
|> mother tongue , but they also learn Hindi because they know that Hindi
|> is the
|> incidentally most tamilians in TN are) will try to underestimate the
|> importance of Hindi. TN can easily learn Hindi without sacrificing
|> tamil.
Since gentler methods have failed to dissuade you from posting moronic
articles
in SCT, I guess it's time to get rude. Listen dingbat, we don't want to
hear
from you. If you have lots of spare time, why don't you devote yourself to
finding somebody in the US to suck up to. We are reliably informed that
the
good citizens of Delhi have been forced to use paper/water to clean their
backsides now that you are no longer in Delhi to lick their asses.
Suresh
Suresh Rajan
|> Krishna) writes:
|> >
|> >
|> >just a ploy to introduce sanskrit through the back door.
|> >For this all kinds of excuse is thrown.
|> >
|> > Majority of TN has
|> >already rejected Hindi. Why are you singing oppari
|> >here. Tamil people have chosen to communicate
|> >with the Central Govt. in English.
|>
|> in
|> Hindi. So we have two one way communication channels. "Tamil People"
|> and
|> "Hindi Karans" talk at each other rather than speak to each other.
|> And how do you know what "Tamil people have chosen" ?
|>
|> Tamil people should not need to talk to the Central government so much.
|>
|> learning languages, bashing Brahmins, making speeches and fighting.
|> Making money is not a bad alternative to these activities.
|>
Give your persecution complex a rest, will you? How many Tamil people do
you
know bash Brahmins and how many Brahmins do you know who have been bashed?
The overwhelming majority of Tamil people don't give a hoot about a
person's
caste. If they did, JJ would never have been elected CM and RV would never
have been elected and re-elected MP.
Suresh
N. Padmanabhan
>Did it ever occur to you that why prestigious institutions like
>IIT and IIM still are considered to be the best in India and
>also one of the BEST in the world. It's because they don't
>have a reservation system.
The fact that IIT's are one of the best is because they
have good faculty, good facilities and most importantly
an atmosphere where a student is more under positive influences.
External influences play a major role in the intellectual
upbringing of a student. In IIT a student gets positively
observed for his academic performance. While in other colleges the
negative influences of the society are higher. This negative attribute
of regional colleges is not specific to Tamil Nadu.
I am a student of IIT and I did my bachelor's degree from PSG Tech,
Coimbatore. In my observation the quality of education in PSG was quite
Okay and there are seats available under reservation system in PSG too.
I, will with all my emphasis, state that the students who got their
seats through reservation system are no reason for the poor quality of
education.
>The point I am trying to say is that reservation system is a compromise
>on merit which is totally nacceptable in any society.
I request you to weigh the positive influences of bringing many people
to average levels against taking few people to very high levels. Any
nation will truly improve if the overall level improves and not just
by few (economically/socially) privileged people excelling.
>What is fuck is this management quota.
Well, Mr. Krishna, I would really appreciate it if you stick to good
language. I suggest you resort to positive forms of emphasis. That
would really help in keeping the quality of our interaction high.
To answer your question : By management quota, I mean Capitation fee
seats. The seats one can buy through one's monetary power. There is a
college called Ramaiah College in Bangalore which is notoriously known
for the number of seats through Management quota. An engineering seat
used to cost 1 lakh and medical seat used to cost 10+ lakhs. What about
the quality of education of these people and their performance in their
professions ? Many economically privileged students of this college
are known for their notoriety in Bangalore.
Many of them come from rich families in North India. They do every
thing other than studies.
( To the few good students of such colleges, no offense meant to you)
Many of these guys through their parent's influence will make it to high
places in companies. And they continue to pollute the society.
>Please don't make any remarks about
>color of skin. I never made it in this discussion.
Please understand that this remark was not meant against you and I am
sorry for the mistake. But it was to drive my opinion into the minds of
people who have come across a Hindi slang "MAKAALU". It means "Madhraas
ka Kaalu" (The black from Madras ), which refers to everyone from south
of Vindhyaas.
>Peoplr from Gujarat , Maharashtra , Orissa , Bengal etc also love their
>mother tongue , but they also learn Hindi because they know that Hindi
>is the >most useful and widely spoken language in India. Only a fool
>(which incidentally most tamilians in TN are) will try to underestimate
>the importance of Hindi.TN can easily learn Hindi without sacrificing
>tamil.
People from these states speak language that is similar to Hindi and
find it, naturally, understandable. More over they have people from
their adjacent states speaking that language. So it gets easily into
their lives. While the 'fools' of Tamil Nadu don't have a language
that is related to Hindi and do not share their borders with Hindi
speaking states. I agree that the importance of Hindi is felt when
you go to a Hindi speaking state. For that matter the same should be
felt by Hindi speaking folks too when they go to Non-Hindi speaking
areas. It is natural that you felt the need for Hindi as you were
in a place where it mattered. But that is not the case with majority
of the Tamilians who remain in their state.
At this point, I wish to pose a question to you about the comparative
importance that is given to the International Language - English given
in northern states. Tamil Nadu certainly (statistically,
administratively) has greater acceptance and practice of English. I
wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of 'resisting' other
languages show no 'hatred' for English ?
It would be useful, in my opinion, for tamilians to learn languages
such as German, French and Japanese which are foreign to Tamil , like
Hindi.
They can look forward to getting more jobs that way.
In this concluding paragraph, I request you to keep the net clean and
also attract sensible readers to it by refraining from abusive language.
I am sure you can and in fact you do write well, except for certain
emotional overtones. I shall not be misunderstood as a 'certifying
authority for good writing'.
Thanks,
Padmanabhan.
Suresh Rajan
For the sake of argument, let's say X is a brilliant but poor FC (forward
caste)
and that Y is an average but rich BC. If you used merit as the only
criterion
for admission, then X would get into college but Y would not. However, Y
(or
his parents) would be subsidizing X's education because the Govt. pays most
of
the college's expenses. Would this be fair in your opinion? Let's say, Y
and
a lot of other BCs get together and tell X, "hey, it's your fault that you
are poor. Why should we spend our money to educate you?". What would X
say?
The vast majority of people in India are BCs/SCs/STs. Why should they pay
for
the education of a few FCs? Let's make all students pay their own way
through
college. That certainly is fair.
You have to understand that reservations are necessary to maintain social
order. Otherwise, what incentive is there for the BCs/SCs/STs to work
within
the system. A good analogy for reservation is taxes. The more money you
make,
the higher your income tax bracket. This is called a PROGRESSIVE system of
taxation. A poor person making $1000 per month would find it difficult to
pay
$100 in taxes (10% tax) than a rich person making $10,000 per month and
paying
$2000 in taxes (20% tax rate). Your idea on reservation would correspond to
a
REGRESSIVE system of taxation (ie, flat tax) where every one is in the
same
tax bracket.
I am a non-Brahmin FC and I had to face all the "discrimination" that
Brahmins
do. However, I strongly believe that reservations are just and equitable
and
that more states should follow TN's example (though improvements should be
made to lift up the truly deserving).
Suresh
Suresh Rajan
I agree that you should not be blamed for your ancestors' mistakes. God
knows,
I don't want to blamed for my ancestors' mistakes. However, we need to be
honest and realize that you and I benefitted from our ancestors' mistakes.
Speaking personally, most of the advantages I had in my life were due to
the
fact that I was born in a Forward Caste. It follows logically that if I
benefited from my ancestors' exploitations, then I should also pay for
them
in the form of reservations. I do not, however, approve of beating up on
you
just because you belong to a certain caste.
Suresh
Ganesh Jayadevan (xPHONE)
Shiv <hal...@news.intelsat.int> wrote:
>Ravi Krishna wrote:
>> Perhaps the answer is
>> the absurd policy of bringing to parity the underpriviledged lot. WOW. What a
>> great policy. "To hell with efficieny and merit. We want only mediocre people
>> to run the country."
>
[.. rebutal deleted...]
The reservation system taken to the extreme would mean what Ravi said. Yes.
But that is the implementation that has gone bad. The problem is not in
the policy, but in it's abuse. To the Brahmins who are victimised,
I say: You will have to work so much harder to achieve. If it doesn't
work, maybe it's time for you to move on to other things. Brahmins,
for long, have depended on the state and system for too long for their
livelihood. Now they (actually we, includes me) feel crippled when the
support line gets constricted. It's time for the 'forward' communities
to go into small bussiness and other ventures. Stop moping and start
coping.
I am not sure that we cannot gain the same efficiency by having people
from the underpriveleged working in our offices. We need to nuture their
self-esteem and talents. Under the guise of merit, otherwise, we would
continue the injustice heaped on them for centuries. I wonder why people
*totally* opposed to reservations might be for affirmative action. Anybody
out there willing to bite?
And on the Hindi issue... I hear the argument, and frequently, that
people from other states would find it difficult to manage in TN. Heck,
why don't you learn a little Tamil, if you want to visit TN? Will not help the
tourism industry? Let the tourism industry do something about it, rather
than have the whole populace learn Tamil. After all if you want to visit
TN and see the culture, learning the language will only give a better
understanding of the culture. And as Shiv pointed out, Tamils will learn Hindi,
or Gujarati, or anything else when the need arises on a personal level.
Anything wrong in my understanding?
G.
--
*******************************************************************************
* Ganesh Jayadevan Room: 1D-223 *
* gan...@nasvr1.cb.att.com 6200 E. Broad St. *
* Ph:614-860-5118 Columbus, OH 43213 *
Raghu Seshadri
: I agree that you should not be blamed for your ancestors' mistakes. God
: knows, I don't want to blamed for my ancestors' mistakes. However, we
: need to be honest and realize that you and I benefitted from our
: ancestors' mistakes. Speaking personally, most of the advantages I had
: in my life were due to the fact that I was born in a Forward Caste.
: It follows logically that if I benefited from my ancestors'
: exploitations, then I should also pay for them in the form of
: reservations. I do not, however, approve of beating up on you
: just because you belong to a certain caste.
Please note that I am not discussing the
issue of reservation. Subbiah blames
the descendants personally for the
mistakes of the ancestors in the
following lines -
: |> : Why is it so hard for you militant Iyers and Iyengars to accept your
: |> past mistakes and accept resrvation policy that gives a decent chance for
: |> athi thravidars and scheduled tribes in TN?
: |> ....
: |> : Stay where you please! Why don't you go to TN
: |> : and do some reserach on the past brutalities of Iyers and Iyengars?
: |> When it comes to the pay back time it really hurts, eh?!
He seems eager to inflict punishment
on innocent descendants for the
mistakes of their forefathers. This
has nothing to do with the reservation
issue. It is a matter of confusing
one with one's great-grandfather.
Note the words "your past mistakes"
and "payback time".
RS
Srikanth Gopalan
: >At this point, I wish to pose a question to you about the comparative
: >importance that is given to the International Language - English given
: >in northern states. Tamil Nadu certainly (statistically,
: >administratively) has greater acceptance and practice of English. I
: >wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of 'resisting' other
: >languages show no 'hatred' for English ?
: Excellent. This is the same question which I have asked in my threads. I
: find this as double standards.
There is no hatred for hindi. It is simply a useless language as far
as personal career development in corporate India/higher education
goes. This argument of slave mentality vis a vis english is
bogus. English as a means to economic development is reality. Live
with it. On the other hand no reality exists that warrants force
feeding of hindi. If you wanted a true Indian language
to be the national language, why hindi? Why not Tamil or Marathi or
Bengali? Language of the majority argument doesn't wash. The majority
of India has no use for a national language. A joe average bhaiyya on
the streets of Lucknow has no need to communicate with joe average
Sambasivam/Munusamy on the streets of Madras. In summary Tamils in
TN only 'resist' something that is forced down their throats for which
they have absolutely no use. On the other hand Tamils who live
outside TN have learnt the local language and flourished very well
thank you.
-Srikanth Gopalan
M.Ranganathan
Davis Jebaraj <jeb...@clemson.edu> wrote:
>ra...@cs.umd.edu (M.Ranganathan) wrote:
>
>
>They probably kicked you so hard that you landed in the midst of their
To the contrary Mr. J, no such thing ever happened. I merely wish
to point out that it is ironic that while we rave and rant about
our northern neighbours, we have no compunction in adopting an
equally alien tounge.
>(brtish/european) greatest success story. Lucky you didn'nt crash land
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>in Africa!!
Errr... Your Geography is atrocious Mr. Jeberaj. Did you imagine
USA is in Britain or a part of Europe ? USA is a multi cultural,
multi racial society which I am glad to be a part of. And geography wise,
it is a distinct continent, by the way. Unlike you, Mr. J, I attribute
USA's success to all racial groups - blacks, whites and Asians. You,
on the other hand seem to attribute USA's success to only the Euoropean
/ British community. A Freudean slip ?
>
>Anyway, what kind of a language (dead/alive) does Mr. Ranganathan have in
>mind for use as a link language?
Heres an answer that ought to please you. I hereby decree that all
"indi garans" learn tamil so we can all speak in Tamil to them.
Oh, and heres one that ought to re-enforce your sterotype of me -
let Sanskrit bt the official common language. Enough fodder for an
attack Mr. J ? Go ahead - vent your spleen. I will be amused.
Seriously, though, if English be the de-facto common language of India,
I certainly have no problem with that. However, that does not, in my
case arise from a hatred for Hindi or Hindi speaking people nor does
it arise from a love for English or the British. My reply to Mr. K was
mostly to induce discussion - flame bait you might say.
Ranga.
>
>davis.
>
>
N. Padmanabhan
paragraphs of mine.
>At this point, I wish to pose a question to you about the comparative
>importance that is given to the International Language - English given
>in northern states. Tamil Nadu certainly (statistically,
>administratively) has greater acceptance and practice of English. I
>wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of 'resisting' other
>languages show no 'hatred' for English ?
This is a positive observation and not a negative one about Tamilians.
I am asking the reader to note the fact that Tamilians are not simply
habitual of resisting other languages. USE is the reason that drives
the Tamilian logic.
>
>It would be useful, in my opinion, for tamilians to learn languages
>such as German, French and Japanese which are foreign to Tamil , like
>Hindi.
>They can look forward to getting more jobs that way.
I mean, it would be more useful for Tamilians to learn and German, French or
Japanese than Hindi. And Hindi is quite foreign to the Tamil language.
Every attempt by the Government to impose Hindi and every argument to
'make' Tamilians learn Hindi will end futile with Technological advancement.
A famous example is the case with DoorDharshan. Asking people to find
reason without actually having one will get the same reply from them.
K. Lakshmi Narayan
what happened 50 years ago? Does it even occur to you that most of them
are almost as equally critical about that segment of history as
you are?
While you are at it, explain precisely what greviences you expect
from Britain.
-Lakshmi N.
Suresh Rajan
Jayadevan (xPHONE)) writes:
|> In article <312DD9...@news.intelsat.int>,
|> Shiv <hal...@news.intelsat.int> wrote:
|> >> Perhaps the answer is
|> >> the absurd policy of bringing to parity the underpriviledged lot.
|> WOW. What a
|> >> great policy. "To hell with efficieny and merit. We want only
|> mediocre people
|> >> to run the country."
|> >
|>
|>
|> The reservation system taken to the extreme would mean what Ravi said.
|> Yes.
|> But that is the implementation that has gone bad. The problem is not in
|> the policy, but in it's abuse. To the Brahmins who are victimised,
|> I say: You will have to work so much harder to achieve. If it doesn't
|> work, maybe it's time for you to move on to other things. Brahmins,
|> for long, have depended on the state and system for too long for their
|> livelihood. Now they (actually we, includes me) feel crippled when the
|> support line gets constricted. It's time for the 'forward' communities
|> to go into small bussiness and other ventures. Stop moping and start
|> coping.
|>
|>
Finally, a voice of reason! I have 2 points to make to critics of the
reservation system.
1) To those FCs who complain about reservation of seats in professional
colleges, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Almost all
engineering colleges and some medical colleges in TN are self-financed,
meaning that 50% of the seats are based on capitation fees. Why don't
all
you guys in the US get together and start a fund and use that money to
pay the capitation fee for poor but deserving students from your caste?
Even if 1000 people got together and chipped in $100 a year, that would
be approximately Rs. 35 lakhs -- enough money to get about 25 students
into professional colleges.
2) Stop complaining of reservations in govt. jobs. If FCs are all brilliant
(as Mr. Ravi Krishna hints), they can make it in the private sector
quite
easily. Why do you guys aspire to be "babus"?
Suresh
Shiv
Suresh Rajan wrote:
> Finally, a voice of reason! I have 2 points to make to critics of the
> reservation system.
> 1) To those FCs who complain about reservation of seats in professional
> colleges, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Almost all
> engineering colleges and some medical colleges in TN are self-financed,
> meaning that 50% of the seats are based on capitation fees. Why don't
> all
> you guys in the US get together and start a fund and use that money to
> pay the capitation fee for poor but deserving students from your caste?
DUH !!!! Why don't we ask the same question to ourselves "AC, BC, CC, DC, SC....AT, BT,
ST....".
> 2) Stop complaining of reservations in govt. jobs. If FCs are all brilliant
> (as Mr. Ravi Krishna hints), they can make it in the private sector
> quite easily. Why do you guys aspire to be "babus"?
> Suresh
DUH! Same answer. As for Ravi krishna.... he's just a rable rouser...who hates TN and
Tamils for some reasons and for some other, they are wonderful. In other words... he
claims the cake is made of shit but still wants to eat it. And we would be wasting our
time if we offered any rebuttals to his 'pearls of wisdom'. For once, ignorance is
indeed blissful.
*******************************************************************************
All views/opinions expressed by me are mine and mine only. Those who disagree,
please pick a number and await your turn. - Shiv.
_____
| |
| 97 |
|_____|
*******************************************************************************
N. Padmanabhan
paragraphs of mine.
>At this point, I wish to pose a question to you about the comparative
>importance that is given to the International Language - English given
>in northern states. Tamil Nadu certainly (statistically,
>administratively) has greater acceptance and practice of English. I
>wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of 'resisting' other
>languages show no 'hatred' for English ?
This is a positive observation and not a negative one about Tamilians.
I am asking the reader to note the fact that Tamilians are not simply
habitual of resisting other languages. USE is the reason that drives
the Tamilian logic.
>
>It would be useful, in my opinion, for tamilians to learn languages
>such as German, French and Japanese which are foreign to Tamil , like
>Hindi.
>They can look forward to getting more jobs that way.
I mean, it would be more useful for Tamilians to learn and German, French or
Japanese than Hindi. And Hindi is quite foreign to the Tamil language.
Every attempt by the Government to impose Hindi and every argument to
'make' Tamilians learn Hindi will end futile with Technological advancement.
A famous example is the case with DoorDharshan. Asking people to find
reason without actually having one will get the same reply from them.
Subject:
Re: Reason why I dislike Tamil Nadu
Date:
23 Feb 1996 01:12:01 GMT
From:
rkri...@informix.com (Ravi Krishna)
Organization:
Informix Software, Inc. Menlo Park, CA 94025
Newsgroups:
soc.culture.tamil
Hi NP,
Sorry.
Please note the inverted commas that are around the word 'resisting'.
My intenetion is to say that Tamilians DO NOT simply resist any foreign
langauge. If that was the case they would not show so much of interest
in English.
N. Padmanabhan
>I also request you to consider the plight of those students
>who can't get into colleges inspite of high marks. BTW why
>should the policy of reservation extended in jobs also.
>Having got the education thru quota why should anyone
>continue to get the reservation benefit in promotion
>etc.This is what is happening in Banks , public sectors etc.
>Perhaps the answer is the absurd policy of bringing to
>parity the underpriviledged lot. WOW. What a great policy.
>"To hell with efficieny and merit. We want only mediocre
>people to run the country."
You still seem to see only the plight of those high scoring
students alone. And hence we are getting into the same topic
back again. The intention is not to sacrifice efficiency and merit.
It is to let the 'Mediocre' (Your words) people make
it to those places where they too can turn out to be high
scorers.
Don't you think the number of reserved jobs are so
small in number in comparison to the total number jobs
available in India? As we all know, most of the
high paying jobs are still being occupied by the upper caste
people. That should convey how difficult is this process
of upbringing the deprived people is. It is easy to
assume that those people are Dumb. But it is at the
cost of those 'Dumb' people that this generations of
lead that the forward communities have gained.
The lower community people were forcefully deprived for
generations and and now are being thrown into competition
with someone who has this monstorous advantage gained over
generations and are being branded Dumb. Taking resort an
argument based on merit and efficiency (while still keeping
most of the high postions) just demonstrates an attempt to add
some more dimensions to the NOT-SO-COMPLICATED matter.
In my earlier article I wrote:
>>I wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of 'resisting'
>>otherlanguages show no 'hatred' for English ?
Ravi Krishna's reply was:
>Excellent. This is the same question which I have asked in
>my threads. I find this as double standards.
I think I did not convey myself properly. Please note the
inverted commas. Let me put it in simpler languages.
Tamilians DO NOT want Hindi getting imposed on them. No one
forces them to speak English. So they don't have to resist it.
It is the need for English which they feel from within that
makes them learn it. While asking/forcing them will naturally
meet with the same reaction without the NECESSITY for
learning Hindi.
USE and NEED are two words that would provide answers anyone who
questions Tamilian Logic in learning Hindi.
Padmanabhan. N
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
In article <4giatb$p...@hubcap.clemson.edu>, Davis Jebaraj <jeb...@clemson.edu> writes:
|> ra...@cs.umd.edu (M.Ranganathan) wrote:
|>
|> >Incidentally - your statement that Tamil people should use English to talk
|> >to the Central Govt. is a as servile a position as saying they need to
|> >learn Hindi to talk to the Central Govt. You seem to have forgotten the
|> >legacy of the oh so loving British who kicked our ass for 200 years.
|>
|>
|> Anyway, what kind of a language (dead/alive) does Mr. Ranganathan have in
|> mind for use as a link language?
|>
|>
Davis. Mr. Ranganathan has taken a point that I did not
make and is making a case out of nothing. I have pointed that our
Tamil people and leaders have rejected Hindi outright. They have also
chosen English as the link language.
The legacy of the British and
the people who served them cannot be forgotten
Nor the clan that is abusing the law,
misusing power, using Hindi-Hindia-Hindustan openly or
covertly to fit people
against people.
Kathiravan
PRAKASH2
Krishnamurthi) writes:
> using Hindi-Hindia-Hindustan openly or
>covertly to fit people
>against people.
Here is an info which is Out Of Context.
You may know that there is a song from Maha Kavi Subramaiya Bharathiyar
/bt "Parrukule Nalla Nadu Engal Bharadha Nadu, Neer adhan pudhalvar in
Ninaivatradheer" et/
Similarly a song in Hindi Also that is
/bh "Sare Jaham Se Achcha Hindustan Hamara" eh/ Which is dirived from
Bharathi's song, which was written by a Urudu Poet. Who is not a Hindu. He
belongs to Musilm and not even belongs to the country India. His Name is
Iqbal.
Hindhusthan means the land of Sind similerly land of Hindus. You can imply
any way. That doesn't means that "The nation of People Speak the Language
Hindi". India also dirived from Hindustan only. As per the constitution of
India it is called
"Republic India" or "Bharth". No were in the Constitution it is mentioned
"Hindustan".
BJP only speaking for Hindustan and they never used Iqbal's song.
Flames only in the net.
Regards
Prakash Balakrishnan
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Do Your Duty and Don't expect Results - Gita.
If You Can't Do An Assainment None Can Do That - My Boss.
"Nadena Saidhadhu Nammaku Endra Kelvigal Enno Edharkku?
Nee Enna Saidhai Atharkku?" By MGR In Nan En Pirandhen.
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-------
Swaminathan N
>
> USE and NEED are two words that would provide answers anyone who
> questions Tamilian Logic in learning Hindi.
>
> Padmanabhan. N
Whatever you write; some people will never understand. They are of the
type, "nAn pidicha muyalukku mooNE kAl". It is waste arguing with them.
--
Swaminathan.N
T.S.Reddy
>covertly to fit people
>against people.
>
The only such devious tactics going on is that of the LTTE apologists
to sow seeds of discord between Indians (TN and the rest of India) purely
so that they can use the resources of TN for their murderous cause. Ain't
gonna happen because of the resilience of the Indian state which has
shown it's strength time and time again against the attacks of
opportunistic assholes like you guys.
N. Padmanabhan
>>At this point, I wish to pose a question to you about the >>comparative importance that is given to the International >>Language=
- English given
>>in northern states. Tamil Nadu certainly (statistically,
>>administratively) has greater acceptance and practice of >>English. I wonder why Tamilians, who are habitual of >>'resisting' oth=
erlanguages show no 'hatred' for English ?
Shiv Replied :
>Again, people from Rome seem to assume Rome's solutions to Rome's problems should solve
>Carthage's problems. Even before the anti-hindi stance in TN, more people were learning hindi
>in TN than in many other pro-hindi states. Tamils are not habitual of resisting 'other
>languages', only hindi. Very simply, we resent the imposition of any language over ours.
>Both you guys seem to live in your own worlds. We all want to solve all the problems. Some of
>us understand the logistics. Some of us just go ballistic.
I added my clarifying remarks in the same thread. I shall not
be misread to say that Hindi is necessary.
Thanks.
Padmanabhan
Srikanth Gopalan
Mr.Padmanabhan:
I still await your answer to my question regarding
reservation. If you don't have that earlier post of my mine, please
ask and I shall pose the question again.
-Srikanth Gopalan
Shiv
> Shiv (hal...@news.intelsat.int) wrote:
> : Even before the anti-hindi stance in TN, more people
> : were learning hindi
> : in TN than in many other pro-hindi states. Tamils are not habitual of
> : resisting 'other
> : languages', only hindi. Very simply, we resent the imposition of any
> : language over ours.
>
> spite of living in Banglore for decades tamilians don't bother to learn
> Kanada and prefer tamil.
>
> S. Ravi Krishna
I don't know which kannadigas you are speaking about. Enough fooder and stories have been built
and nourished over the tamil/kannada issue. A number of my friends are kannadigas. Some of them
are tamil. But get this, they have lived in karnataka for decades and they cannot speak tamil at
all. We laugh when they try to speak tamil (because it's funny.. I mean the accent). My brother is
in mysore. The first thing my SIL did was learn kannada. I have a number of relatives in
bangalore. All of them know kannada. In fact I had to be chaperoned around bangalore and mysore
during my visit. And talking about resistance to hindi.... how many people in karnataka speak
hindi. I have seen only people from bangalore have a higher probability of speaking hindi than
from other regions. Try the suburbs of bangalore..in any of the halli's..... try mysore... see how
many speak hindi. Go to mandya. See how many speak hindi. Why don't you try making hindi
compulsory in bangalore, and tell the people that hindi is compulsory for them to get a job in the
state or central machinery.
Getting back... remember that a number of tamils migrated recently. They could be speaking about
them. Also remember TN asked for bangalore when the states were being carved on the basis that
there were a large number of tamils living there when parts of karnataka was a part of the 'Madras
state' under the british. Living in another state doesn't mean that you have to give up your
native tongue over the local language. If that language was necessary, I would learn it.
Go to miami, .. south florida and ask the cubans,and other hispanic groups .. why they haven't
learn't english. The answer very simply is.. they didn't need. If they were to move to missoula...
heck, they would need to know english.
Here's one more thought for you to mull over. Why is it that I was told to speak in tamil and not
in hindi in bangalore when I dealt with rickshaw drivers (this was before the tamil/kannada
escalations)?
*******************************************************************************
All views/opinions expressed by me are mine and mine only. Those who disagree,
please pick a number and await your turn. - Shiv.
_____
| |
| 110 |
|_____|
*******************************************************************************
Ravi Krishna
: Even before the anti-hindi stance in TN, more people
: were learning hindi
: in TN than in many other pro-hindi states. Tamils are not habitual of
: resisting 'other
: languages', only hindi. Very simply, we resent the imposition of any
: language over ours.
Ravi Krishna
: Since gentler methods have failed to dissuade you from posting moronic
: articles
: in SCT, I guess it's time to get rude. Listen dingbat, we don't want to
: hear
: from you. If you have lots of spare time, why don't you devote yourself to
: finding somebody in the US to suck up to. We are reliably informed that
: the
: good citizens of Delhi have been forced to use paper/water to clean their
: backsides now that you are no longer in Delhi to lick their asses.
Delhi has enough water so that people can wash theirs. Your Madras and
Tamilnadu just does not have enough water for people to clean their ass.
Remember tamil film "tanir tanir". I think the rubbish which you wrote
suits 100% to people from TN.
BTW who cleans your mom's ass. You or your dad.
Ravi Krishna
:For the sake of argument, let's say X is a brilliant but poor FC (forward
:caste) and that Y is an average but rich BC. If you used merit as the only
:criterion for admission, then X would get into college but Y would not.
:However, Y (or his parents) would be subsidizing X's education because the
:Govt. pays most of the college's expenses. Would this be fair in your
:opinion? Let's say, Y and a lot of other BCs get together and tell X,
:"hey, it's your fault that you are poor. Why should we spend our money to
:educate you?". What would X say?
:The vast majority of people in India are BCs/SCs/STs. Why should they pay
:for the education of a few FCs? Let's make all students pay their own way
:through college. That certainly is fair.
Mr Suresh Rajan, unlike your verbal dysntery regarding Hindi this one is
better though there are some factual mistakes. Let me point it out:-
1. The vast majority of people who are BC's/SCs/ST's are also finacially poor
and hence they don't pay that much tax. The rich ( which incidentally
belong to FC) are paying tax. Far from poor BC/SC/ST paying for the
education of FC it is FC who are paying for the subsidies of BC/SC/ST.
2. Your suggestion of let one pay for their education is slowly getting
implemented as univserties and colleges are not getting grants they use to.
College education ( especially engg and medical) is increasingly becoming
expensive and unfortunately that will hit the poor more.
:I am a non-Brahmin FC and I had to face all the "discrimination" that
:Brahmins do. However, I strongly believe that reservations are just and
:equitable and that more states should follow TN's example (though
:improvements should be made to lift up the truly deserving).
And also add this: More and more state should follow TN example and start
declining the way TN has. From an enviable postion in 50's and 60's TN has
slipped considerably. In absolute terms TN may have made progress but
considering the progress made by Gujarat , Maharashtra , Punjab and others
TN has lagged behind. Do you know that with the liberalisation more
and more MNC are investing heavily in India. The porpotion of investment in
TN is peanuts compared to states from West and North. I can definetly say
that TN with its anti merit policy in every sphere of life is slowly inching
towards oblivion. TN has no time to think on serious issues like water
problem & it's relationship with neighbouring state like Karnataka.They would
spend their time and energy on stupid issues like tamil vs hindi and
reservation while other state left them far behind in the rat race.
N. Padmanabhan
Let me give you some background of this thread:
It was started off by Mr. Ravi Krishna and has gone through a
lot of drifts and is going through the "Hindutva" now.
You are drifting (trying to drift) this to your fond acronym
LTTE.
PLEASE DO NOT.
Thanks.
Padmanabhan. N
Shiv
to avoid mail like this one. For some reason (is there something I'm missing here?) some
people do not seem to understand this. I expect people to use their judgement on such
issues. If a discussion was initiated in the ngs that's where they should stay unless a
request is made to discuss it by e-mail only. If it was started by e-mail then that's
where it should stay. Considering that this is a running discussion in the ngs, I am
posting it there. I haven't read it but, I will read it and provide a rebuttal if
warranted.
Hi ,
In article <31349D...@intelsat.int> you wrote:
: Again you seem too confused to discern between social justice and affirmative action.
: The reservation policy IS NOT intended for social justice. In fact it has nothing to do
: with social justice. It is not social justice. Maybe you feel that way because some
You are the first who is saying that reservation is not intended for social
justice. All others in SCT who support reservation opine that by
reservation TN is undoing centuries of oppresion. I would like you to point
why you don't consider reservation as a means of social justice.
I NEVER excluded non brahmin FC in TN. IMO they are as much victims of
reservation as brahmins. However they are not subject to brahmin bashing in
their daily life.
> Same answer. As for Ravi krishna.... he's just a rable rouser...who hates
> TN and Tamils for some reasons and for some other, they are wonderful. In
> other words... he claims the cake is made of shit but still wants to eat it.
> And we would be wasting our time if we offered any rebuttals to his
> 'pearls of wisdom'. For once, ignorance is indeed blissful.
I won't stoop to your level by writing this nonsense. You would have
noticed that I indulge in personal attacks only when others attack me.
Anyhow coming back to your opinion about me I can't say much. How can I talk
to a person who claims to know about me better then I myself. Even though I
have not lived for long in TN I keep going there often and I can claim that I
know quite about TN ( certainly not as much as you ). The two main points
which I have raised against TN namely Reservation and Anti Hindi stance is
according to me wrong. The fact that in other states this is not happening
( to a large extent ) proves that TN is unique in these matters. It is
obvious that TN will always support their policies.
Even since I started this topic I have recvd many personal mails where many
have acknowleded ( including non brahmins) that TN is WRONG in the above two
matters. To me that is VICTORY. If guys like you continue to feel that it
is right , I don't mind because I know there are people from TN who also feel
that is not right.
If you would like to reply please ensure that you keep decent language.
--
*******************************************************************************
All views/opinions expressed by me are mine and mine only. Those who disagree,
please pick a number and await your turn. - Shiv.
_____
| |
| 102 |
|_____|
*******************************************************************************
Ravi Krishna
:I don't know which kannadigas you are speaking about. Enough fooder and
:stories have been built
I think you have truly become the proverbial frog in the well.
Entire India knows about Kanadigas dislike for tamilians for the very reason I
mentioned. During the height of cavery water raucous ( I think it was Dec 91
and Jan 92) SUNDAY magazine had a photo of a tamilian on the cover with the
following heading ( I am quoting verbatim).
"ARE TAMILIANS THE MOST HATED COMMUNITY IN INDIA". I am sure others netters
in SCT will confirm this. Please read that for an unbiased opinion on this
issue. I am not going to believe a tamilian like you for obvious reason.
: Getting back... remember that a number of tamils migrated recently. They
: could be speaking about them.
Here you are correct. I agree.
: Living in another state doesn't mean that you have to give up your
: native tongue over the local language. If that language was necessary,
: I would learn it.
Why tamilians always think that learning a native language will mean giving
up your mother tongue. I think tamilians are good enough to pick other
languages without sacrificing tamil. Also your statement "if necessary" is
ridiclulous. If Kanada is not necessary in Banglore then where else it will
be. In Patna ?
: Go to miami,south florida and ask the cubans,and other hispanic groups why
: they haven't learn't english. The answer very simply is.. they didn't need.
: If they were to move to missoula... heck, they would need to know english.
By comparing tamilians with cubans and hispanics I think you have insulted
them more than a perpetual tamil basher like me. Hispanics are known to be
slow in picking up language. Even in California they don't speak english.
: Here's one more thought for you to mull over. Why is it that I was told to
: speak in tamil and not in hindi in bangalore when I dealt with rickshaw
: drivers (this was before the tamil/kannada : escalations)?
I too have a similar experience. I once took a taxi in Delhi where the
auto driver ( a sardar) spoke to me in fluent tamil. It turned out to be
that he was in Coimbatore for quite some time and has picked up good tamil.
I think this answers your question.
With best wishes.
Ravi Krishna
ex
>How does he know that Tin Tin's name is Tilak?
A leetul burdie wispurred eet eentu mah year.....
Rishya