enRRum anpudan!
Affable
One of the recent tamil movie "enRRum anpudan" passes the mediocrity
of tamil movies.Reminds a little bit of "naan paadum paadal", actually
very little.Starring: Murali, Sithaara,Rohini,Manorama,Janakaraj and
Senthil.
Cheers,
Venkat
--
ven...@jetson.uh.edu | If you love something,set it free.
ven...@menudo.uh.edu | If it comes back, it is yours.
ven...@uhupvm1.uh.edu | If it does not, it never was.
ar...@tree.egr.uh.edu(NeXT mails OK)|
(713)225-6426(h) & (713)743-4250(w) |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sornam Sankara
In article <1992Nov12....@menudo.uh.edu> Venkatachalam Aruna <aruna@tre
"naan padum paadal" was also a mediocre movie w/o any doubts. In fact we can
count the non-mediocre movies in Tamil released during the last 10 years.
thaNNeer thaNNeer (1982) - Komal Swaminathan and K.Balachander,
oru inthiyak kanavu (1983) - Komal Swaminathan,
veedu (1988) - Balu Mahendra
these three for the theme and realism.
maRu pakkam (1991) for the theme and realistic expression of inner feelings in
a changing society. - Sethu Mathavan
muthal mariyathai (1985) for its artistic touch.
puthumaip peN (1986) and vedham puthithu (1989) for the controversial theme
and the messages. But all these Bharathi Raja's movies are not very realistic,
and commercial too. KB's `achchamillai achchamillai'(1983) joins this
category.
poove poochchoodava by Facil was commercial but realistic to a certain level.
There was one movie by John Abraham (MalayaLam director) "agraharaththil
Kazhuthai" was never released in TN theaters thanks to the Brahmin lobby. It
was not allowed to be screened by the TV in its national network at the last
minute, sorry, the last second by our ex. Hon president RV. The story was by a
well known Tamil literary critic Venkat Swaminathan who was a Brahmin and those
from the Film colleges say that there is nothing against Brahmins except the
title.
Other than that, Mani Ratnam, Bagya Raj, T. Rajendar, R. Sundararajan, Telugu
K. Viswanath are all just making business and are really very talented in it.
They satisfy different types of crowds. Bharathi Raja, KB, Balu Mahendra are
also not exceptional.
I may have missed a few (very few) other movies. Please correct me if I have
the years gotten wrong above.
Our movie world has to learn a lot more from MalayaLam cinemas. Even most of
the commercial MalayaLam movies are not mediocre like Tamil movies.
Thanks,
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
The Phoenix
>
>
>In article <1992Nov12....@menudo.uh.edu> Venkatachalam Aruna <aruna@tre
>e.egr.uh.edu> writes:
>>
>> One of the recent tamil movie "enRRum anpudan" passes the mediocrity
>>of tamil movies.Reminds a little bit of "naan paadum paadal", actually
>>very little.Starring: Murali, Sithaara,Rohini,Manorama,Janakaraj and
>>Senthil.
>>
>
>"naan padum paadal" was also a mediocre movie w/o any doubts. In fact we can
>count the non-mediocre movies in Tamil released during the last 10 years.
>
>thaNNeer thaNNeer (1982) - Komal Swaminathan and K.Balachander,
>oru inthiyak kanavu (1983) - Komal Swaminathan,
>veedu (1988) - Balu Mahendra
> these three for the theme and realism.
In that sense one could add "Ezhathu Manithan" a movie featuring Raghuvaran
and Bharathi's songs.
>maRu pakkam (1991) for the theme and realistic expression of inner feelings in
>a changing society. - Sethu Mathavan
>
>
>muthal mariyathai (1985) for its artistic touch.
How about "Mouna Ragam" for the poignant presentation of a upper
middle class relationship marked by the spectre of fillial responsibility
and arranged marriages.
>puthumaip peN (1986) and vedham puthithu (1989) for the controversial theme
>and the messages. But all these Bharathi Raja's movies are not very realistic
>
>poove poochchoodava by Facil was commercial but realistic to a certain level.
One could add "Nayagan" which though commercial did in some sense bring
the notion of "outlaw" as hero or the Robin hood syndrome.
>
>There was one movie by John Abraham (MalayaLam director) "agraharaththil
>Kazhuthai" was never released in TN theaters thanks to the Brahmin lobby. It
>was not allowed to be screened by the TV in its national network at the last
>minute, sorry, the last second by our ex. Hon president RV. The story was by a
>well known Tamil literary critic Venkat Swaminathan who was a Brahmin and those
>from the Film colleges say that there is nothing against Brahmins except the
>title.
There was also a movie called "Ore Oru Gramatthile" which presented the
predicament of a brahmin lady allegedly faking her caste to acquire
admission to the IAS, unfortunately censorship from the political
forces of the day did't allow the film to be released for a long time
and when they did release it , the script was mutilated beyond artistic
merit or freedom.
Censorship Sucks and regardless of who or why someone does it, it is
very reprehensible.
>
>Other than that, Mani Ratnam, Bagya Raj, T. Rajendar, R. Sundararajan, Telugu
>K. Viswanath are all just making business and are really very talented in it.
>They satisfy different types of crowds. Bharathi Raja, KB, Balu Mahendra are
>also not exceptional.
>
>
>I may have missed a few (very few) other movies. Please correct me if I have
>the years gotten wrong above.
>
>Our movie world has to learn a lot more from MalayaLam cinemas. Even most of
>the commercial MalayaLam movies are not mediocre like Tamil movies.
We have however had some very interesting and thought provoking movies
made in tamil, "Avargal" by Balachander deals with the problem of divorce
and the case of the single woman much ahead of its time, "Sumaithangi" by
sridhar deals with sacrifice and family responsibility, "Nizhal Nijamakiradhu"
by Balachander again truly is novel in its representation. Could go on,
anybody interested in discussing the merits of tamil film directors ??
The Phoenix.
>Thanks,
>
>
>
>S. Sankarapandi
>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
--
******************************************************************
Nondum amabam, et amare amabam quaerebam quid amarem, amans amare.
I loved not yet, yet I loved to love I sought what I might love,
in love with loving.
Meenan Vishnu
>
>
This group is very adept in suppressing literature that speaks against their
evil ways.
>was not allowed to be screened by the TV in its national network at the last
>minute, sorry, the last second by our ex. Hon president RV. The story was by a
>well known Tamil literary critic Venkat Swaminathan who was a Brahmin and those
>from the Film colleges say that there is nothing against Brahmins except the
>title.
>
>
>Other than that, Mani Ratnam, Bagya Raj, T. Rajendar, R. Sundararajan, Telugu
>K. Viswanath are all just making business and are really very talented in it.
>They satisfy different types of crowds. Bharathi Raja, KB, Balu Mahendra are
>also not exceptional.
>
>
>I may have missed a few (very few) other movies. Please correct me if I have
>the years gotten wrong above.
>
>Our movie world has to learn a lot more from MalayaLam cinemas. Even most of
>the commercial MalayaLam movies are not mediocre like Tamil movies.
This is very well said. The difference between an average Tamil movie and an
average Malayalam movie is immense.
We (the Tamils) may have inherited this fascination for unrealistic dream
world stories thru our contacts with the irrational Sanskritic literature.
Here I am refering to the Sanskritic stories which are similar in spirit
to the story of Satyavathi's birth ( A fish swallows semen and later when
fishermen cut open the fish, they find two kids etc).
>S. Sankarapandi
>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Meenan Vishnu
Aravind Srinivasan
|> In article <BxM1K...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> mvi...@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) writes:
|> >In article <1992Nov12.0...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sornam Sankara) writes:
|> >>
|> >>
|> >>There was one movie by John Abraham (MalayaLam director) "agraharaththil
|> >>Kazhuthai" was never released in TN theaters thanks to the Brahmin lobby. It
|> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >
|> >This group is very adept in suppressing literature that speaks against their
|> >evil ways.
|> >
|>
|> Not just this group. There are several "groups" like this all over
|> India. Being a foreigner, though a Tamilian, you are not aware of it. When
|> Sujatha wrote a story in Kumudam, another "group" threatened to burn up
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> Kumudam magazines and even their offices. The story was withdrawn out of
|> fear.
Not just threatened, they in fact did burn copies of Kumudam on a large scale
in a public place in some city. I am aware and angry about the atrocities that
Brahmins and other "higher caste" people have committed, but one should be more
aware of the facts before spewing hatred. If this "group" that Meenan Vishnu
points out is really that adept in suppressing material which speaks against it,
"literature" like the DK mouthpiece ("Viduthalai"?) must have been "suppressed"
long back.
Let me stress that I am no spokesperson for this community or that and that I
am truly saddened about our caste-based divisions and discrimination, but one must
also use some judgement before developing and spreading hatred towards any
particular community.
No personal animosity towards Meenan is meant here.
Peace,
Aravind.
R. Parthasarathy
>>
>>
>>There was one movie by John Abraham (MalayaLam director) "agraharaththil
>>Kazhuthai" was never released in TN theaters thanks to the Brahmin lobby. It
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>This group is very adept in suppressing literature that speaks against their
>evil ways.
>
Not just this group. There are several "groups" like this all over
India. Being a foreigner, though a Tamilian, you are not aware of it. When
Sujatha wrote a story in Kumudam, another "group" threatened to burn up
Kumudam magazines and even their offices. The story was withdrawn out of
fear. Other than the "brahmin group", all the other groups would resort to
violence if needed to show their protest on anything that criticizes them
or involves them. Try writing something that involves muslim characters
and see what happens. By saying this I am not initiating another net war
between muslims and others.
>We (the Tamils) may have inherited this fascination for unrealistic dream
>world stories thru our contacts with the irrational Sanskritic literature.
>Here I am refering to the Sanskritic stories which are similar in spirit
>to the story of Satyavathi's birth ( A fish swallows semen and later when
>fishermen cut open the fish, they find two kids etc).
>
Most mythical stories in the world are unrealistic, not just those
in Sanskrit. Even today there are movies made like Star wars, Superman,
Batman etc.. Looks like these stories too have tremendous influence of
Sanskritic literature as per your logic! Unrealistic themes come from human
imagination. Sanskrit is just a language. Ever heard of the story of Adam
and Eve, Mr. Meenan? Does it sound more logical than the one you have
described? Do not be too biased against one community. The whole world
has gone through "unrealistic stories" several times.
We (the Tamils) are human beings just like others. We sure must
have our own imagination too. We don't need Sanskritic influence to become
unrealistic. That reminds me of another point. When it comes to bad influences,
immediately people like you point a finger at one community or Sanskritic
influence. In the same vein, how come you fail to acknowledge "good influences"?
Sure there must be something good coming out when cultures clash. Or do you
prefer to ignore that because it doesn't suit you? The whole world has been
benefitting because of cultural clashes throughout history. You are trying
to paint it something like the holocaust. You sure have some imagination.
I know that it does not come from "Sanskritic influence". It come from hatred.
>>S. Sankarapandi
>>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>
>Meenan Vishnu
Partha sarathy
Arun
>
>>We (the Tamils) may have inherited this fascination for unrealistic dream
>>world stories thru our contacts with the irrational Sanskritic literature.
>>Here I am refering to the Sanskritic stories which are similar in spirit
>>to the story of Satyavathi's birth ( A fish swallows semen and later when
>>fishermen cut open the fish, they find two kids etc).
>>
> Most mythical stories in the world are unrealistic, not just those
>in Sanskrit. Even today there are movies made like Star wars, Superman,
>Batman etc.. Looks like these stories too have tremendous influence of
>Sanskritic literature as per your logic! Unrealistic themes come from human
>imagination. Sanskrit is just a language. Ever heard of the story of Adam
>and Eve, Mr. Meenan? Does it sound more logical than the one you have
>described? Do not be too biased against one community. The whole world
>has gone through "unrealistic stories" several times.
Exactly. In Silappadhikaarm, Kannagi burns Madurai by cutting one of
her breasts and throwing it. Is that realistic?
- Arun.
>>Meenan Vishnu
>
>Partha sarathy
Rajarama Krishnan
>In article <1992Nov12.0...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sornam Sankara) writes:
>>
>>"naan padum paadal" was also a mediocre movie w/o any doubts. In fact we can
>>count the non-mediocre movies in Tamil released during the last 10 years.
I liked Pesum Padam a lot. It was a brilliant idea and had a very pleasant
story. Kamal and Amala acted great too. Moondraam Pirai was a great movie too.
>How about "Mouna Ragam" for the poignant presentation of a upper
>middle class relationship marked by the spectre of fillial responsibility
>and arranged marriages.
I somehow didnt like Mouna Ragam because it was copied from "nenjaththai
kiLLAdhE". The story line is exactly the same. SHE loves one guy who SHE is
unable to marry and is forced to marry HE. Now SHE is a very energetic
emotional female. The guy SHE loved was the fun loving, freak-out kind of guy.
HE (the husband) is the father-figure kind. Very loving caring etc. HE loves
SHE. But SHE still loves the other guy. Then SHE finally changes mind and
starts loving HE just when HE was about to change his mind and stop loving SHE.
So all ends well. In one movie they finally join in the airport and in the
other movie in the railway station. What major difference do people see between
these two movies, I dont understand. I can only see a good cog. I liked
Suhasini's performance much better than Revathi's.
>>poove poochchoodava by Facil was commercial but realistic to a certain level.
Wasnt this originally a Malayalam movie?
>>Our movie world has to learn a lot more from MalayaLam cinemas. Even most of
>>the commercial MalayaLam movies are not mediocre like Tamil movies.
I agree, the comercial Malayalam are on an average better than the comercial
Tamil movie. But the Malayalam art movies suck. Frankly I feel that good
movies dont have to be obscure and ugly. Seeing good movies can be a pleasant
experience. I am yet to see a Malayalam movie which has had a strong impression
on me. However I have seen some Tamil and Hindi movies which have impressed
me a lot. If you say that we have to learn from English movies I will
fully agree. There are just many many more exceptional movies in Enlish than
in the Tamil, Hindi, or Malayalam.
Rajaram
Shiva Shivakumar
>
>
>Kazhuthai" was never released in TN theaters thanks to the Brahmin lobby. It
>was not allowed to be screened by the TV in its national network at the last
>minute, sorry, the last second by our ex. Hon president RV. The story was by a
>well known Tamil literary critic Venkat Swaminathan who was a Brahmin and those
>from the Film colleges say that there is nothing against Brahmins except the
>title.
>
To be precise, SOME influential brahmins did that, right? OR did some
association such as TAMBRAS do it? In any case, such acts are sick
and deserve condemnation.
At the same time, I challenge John Abrahams to make movies with
the following titles :
1. Maadha koyilil manidhakkurangu
2. Masoodhiyil panri
I hope this does not spark off a debate on how kazhudhai is not
half as bad as manidhakkurangu or panri.
Other attempts at censorship :
1. Around the time Vedham Pudhidhu was made, a movie was made that
criticized the reservation system. While the Brahmin group objected
to Vedham pudhidhu as being anti-brahmin (BTW, I did not think so and
I liked the movie very much), another group charged that the other
movie (I am sorry I forget the title) was glorifying brahmins. Both
movies were sort-of censored. While MGR interfered and succeeded in
lifting the ban on V.P, RV interfered and failed to remove the ban
on the other movie. Later, after some scenes were deleted, the other
movie was allowed to release.
I read this in Illustrated Weekly. But media is nothing but a brahmin
propaganda machine, right ?
2. I heard that when Muhammad bin Thuglak was released, MK said that
Cho was making fun of Muslims ... (Here, I have no proof)
3. When Sujatha, in the novel, "Sivappu, Karuppu, Veluppu" wrote about
an Englishman looking at a Nadar woman and the author (who ensures that
every short story/novel has at least one reference to breasts)
put in some description of that woman, SOME Nadar community members
burnt the issues of Kumudham and the serial was discontinued.
IMHO the brahmins have been portrayed more negatively than most other
communities in the movies. I personally do not care. And I am not
saying that Brahmins using some lobby to censor is correct. They SHOULD
STOP DOING IT, even if EVERY other community does it. Even then the Tamil
Kaavalars of SCT will blame ONLY Brahmins but they should not care.
Now the million dollar question : Let's say we kick all the Brahmins
out of Tamilnadu and let's say they do not get any voice in Delhi too.
Will Tamilnadu get better after that ?
I do not know....
Waiting to be enlightened,
Jagadisan Shivakumar
>
>
>S. Sankarapandi
>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>Now the million dollar question : Let's say we kick all the Brahmins
>out of Tamilnadu and let's say they do not get any voice in Delhi too.
>Will Tamilnadu get better after that ?
>I do not know....
>Waiting to be enlightened,
>Jagadisan Shivakumar
>>
>>
>>S. Sankarapandi
>>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Brahmanism practised by Brahmins and every other community has
to be fought against, not the Brahmins personally. Then the whole
country will march to the path of progress.
Kathiravan
Shiva Shivakumar
>average Malayalam movie is immense.
>
>We (the Tamils) may have inherited this fascination for unrealistic dream
>world stories thru our contacts with the irrational Sanskritic literature.
>Here I am refering to the Sanskritic stories which are similar in spirit
>to the story of Satyavathi's birth ( A fish swallows semen and later when
>fishermen cut open the fish, they find two kids etc).
>
Then we Tamils must be TOTAL MORONS since we have taken irrational stuff
from the alien Sanskritic literature while Bengalis, Maharashtrian whose
languages ARE part of this irrational culture make excellent movies!
May be Muthuvel KaruNAnidhi who is least tarnished by this alien irrational
culture should make some high quality movies now because he not only has
movie experience, he has an actor in his family and he does not have a job.
But then the rule of the evil Brahmin lady will go unchecked ...
Jagadisan Shivakumar
Sarath Krishnaswamy
|> In article <1992Nov12.0...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sornam Sankara) writes:
|> >
|> >There was one movie by John Abraham (MalayaLam director) "agraharaththil
|> >Kazhuthai" was never released in TN theaters thanks to the Brahmin lobby. It
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>
|> This group is very adept in suppressing literature that speaks against their
|> evil ways.
Sigh. Good to hear from you again, Mr. Vishnu. It's been a while.
I imagine that, like any other lobby (Sri Lankan/TE, or Asian-American, or
any other both here and abroad), this "Brahmin Lobby" is concerned with looking
out for its members. It's not astonishingly logical to say that everything it
does is evil. Why not be as factual as possible and say that everything it does
pisses you off. But, heck, why not turn a movie discussion into a flamewar.
Things were getting boring anyway.
|>
|> We (the Tamils) may have inherited this fascination for unrealistic dream
|> world stories thru our contacts with the irrational Sanskritic literature.
|> Here I am refering to the Sanskritic stories which are similar in spirit
|> to the story of Satyavathi's birth ( A fish swallows semen and later when
|> fishermen cut open the fish, they find two kids etc).
Or it might be that hideous fascination the human race has with "fiction".
Glad to know you're on this one. I'd hate to think that my heritage had
any weird fictional parables in it like those in Greek, Celtic, Aztec,
Inca, Chinese, Japanese, and pretty much every other civilisation. Darn
it, let's leave irrational fantasy to those other people!
Sarath.
--
*********************************************************
* Sarath Krishnaswamy *
* MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory *
* 545 Technology Square room 828 *
* Cambridge, MA 02139 (617) 253-1513 *
* skri...@ai.mit.edu *
*********************************************************
Jayaraman Anand
#Now the million dollar question : Let's say we kick all the Brahmins
#out of Tamilnadu and let's say they do not get any voice in Delhi too.
#Will Tamilnadu get better after that ?
#Jagadisan Shivakumar
Are U kidding ? It will to the dogs.
J Anand.
--
!!!!!!!!!%-----+++++=====/**##!!!!!!!!!!!!!/**##=====+++++-----%!!!!!!!!
When you don't know what to do, walk fast and look worried.
!!!!!!!!!%-----+++++=====/**##!!!!!!!!!!!!/**##=====+++++-----%!!!!!!!!!
Jayaraman Anand
#experience. I am yet to see a Malayalam movie which has had a strong impression
#on me. However I have seen some Tamil and Hindi movies which have impressed
#Rajaram
Try, Dasaradham, Kireedam, Artham, Nirakkuttu, Dhanam, Bharatham, etc.
There are many more movies. If U are interested get in touch.
Arun
>k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>
>Also, has any body seen any hard data (empirical evidence)
>as to who have benefited from the TN reservation policies?
>Has it really gone to the weak and underprivileged? I'm
>sure some of it has, but surely some of it has gone to
>privileged people who were able to "produce" appropriate
>documentation?
>
>Just some thoughts. That's all. Personally, I believe that
>TN has explosive talent that will bloom in a free-enterprise
>oriented Indian economy, but to take full advantage of it,
>it has to put its own house in order. Help the disadvantaged,
>by all means (free education, clothing, meals, additional
>coaching at the school level etc) enabling them to compete.
>But penalizing talented children because of "past misdeeds"
>of a different generation is simply not "pahuththaRivu"!
>
>- ganesh
It is my belief that reservation system is one of the main reasons
for our poor work ethics.
- Arun.
Meenan Vishnu
In article <1992Nov12....@ultb.isc.rit.edu> akn...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>In article <45...@ogicse.ogi.edu>, par...@mse.cse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy) writes:
>>>world stories thru our contacts with the irrational Sanskritic literature.
>>>Here I am refering to the Sanskritic stories which are similar in spirit
>>>to the story of Satyavathi's birth ( A fish swallows semen and later when
>>>fishermen cut open the fish, they find two kids etc).
>>>
>>in Sanskrit. Even today there are movies made like Star wars, Superman,
>>Batman etc.. Looks like these stories too have tremendous influence of
>>Sanskritic literature as per your logic! Unrealistic themes come from human
>>imagination. Sanskrit is just a language. Ever heard of the story of Adam
>>and Eve, Mr. Meenan? Does it sound more logical than the one you have
>>described? Do not be too biased against one community. The whole world
>>has gone through "unrealistic stories" several times.
>
>Exactly. In Silappadhikaarm, Kannagi burns Madurai by cutting one of
>her breasts and throwing it. Is that realistic?
That is precisely my point. Later Tamil literature (ie after the
contact with the Sanskrti literature) such as Silappithikaram, Periya
Puranam &c were written after are tainted. (See Arun Gupta's article
on "Forgeries of Hindu Scritupres for details)
Periya Puranam actually contains a story (of iyaRpahai naayanaar) who
gave his wife to a Sivan-adiyaar, which contradicts with a very basic
value cherished in Tamil civilization (ie. non-sharing of life partners).
However, pre-sanskritic works such as "saanROr ceyyuL" (or commonly
called sangham literature) does not contain any controversal, unrealistic
or stupid mythologies.
>
>- Arun.
>
>>>Meenan Vishnu
>
>>
>>Partha sarathy
Meenan Vishnu
Arun Gupta's Article (long) (see underlined part)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: ag...@andrew.cmu.edu (Arun K. Gupta)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Forgeries of Hindu Texts
Message-ID: <Ydu8Kh_00VB=R8y...@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 12 Apr 92 18:47:09 GMT
Organization: Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 201
Status: OR
This `communalist liberal' is happy to present to you some more
food for thought:
The following is from Benjamin Walker: The Hindu World: An Encyclopedic
Survey of Hinduism, 1968.
FORGERIES: The fact that the Hindu Scriptures bear evidence of consider-
able tampering need come as no surprise to anyone acquainted with the his-
tory of priestcraft the world over. The scientific criticism of ancient
writings has brought to light many forgeries among the works of the Church
Fathers, to take Christian literature, and the texts of the other great
faiths are not exempt from this imputation.
That this mass of Sanskrit texts that had been subjected to interpolations,
tendentious redactions or plain fabrication, should have escaped detection
before European scholarship directed its attention to them, was largely due
to the reverence in which they were held, and the danger that attended any
attempt to undermine their authority. More than expert knowledge is required
to detect a forgery. What is more important is the secular approach, which
implies a refusal to regard the sacred text with the eye of faith, and there-
fore to see in it a document of human origin subject to the limitations of
human scribes, copyists, commentators and zealots.
The onus of responsibility for the greater part of the tampering can be laid
at the door of the brahmin priesthood who in order to support their claims to
superiority and preserve their privileges are known to have suppressed facts,
changed names, and confused places and periods; who have interlarded fact with
fiction in accordance with their own religious ends. It is to the period known
as the Brahminical Revival [1-400 AD] that we can trace most of the counter-
feiting of scriptures that has characterized the Period of Priests throughout
recorded history. To this period belong the accumulations of spurious data and
the creation of fictitious dynastic pedigrees, that have so inextricably inter-
woven fact with fancy in Indian historical annals. In short, it was a time for
the wholesale re-casting of Indian life and culture into the mould shaped by
the brahmins.
The whole vast heritage of Vedic and native material was exploited to buttress
up the brahminical edifice. To the Revival is due the sanskritization of Indian
thought and the brahmanization of Indian social codes by the scribes.
In the words of Dharma Theerta,
`There is hardly any Sanskrit composition which has not been tampered with,
altered or added to by them. There is no famous rishi or teacher in whose
name they have not concocted scriptures. There is no sacred book into which
fiction and legend and imaginary history, have not been interpolated.'
Among the scores of forgeries that have been brought to light a few of a
particular heinous character deserve to be mentioned. Thus, there is evidence
to show that the famous "Purusha-sukta" of the Rig-Veda, on which the whole
issue of Hindu caste is based and from which the lucubrations of the comment-
ators on caste separation commence, is of very questionable authenticity.
It is suspected that in spite of their reverence for the sacred hymns, the
priestly scribes like their counterparts of other faiths, were not above a
little textual manipulation if it served to enhance their prestige. In all
likelihood the Purusha-sukta and certain other verses were interpolated into
the text long after the canon of the Rig-Veda was finally closed.
According to Colebrooke, `That remarkable hymn, is in language, meter and
style, very different from the rest of the prayers with which it is associated.
It has a decidedly more modern tone.'
To this Max Muller adds, ` There is little doubt that it is modern both in its
character and its diction.'
It is remarkable that the term "sudra" (servile caste) occurs only once in the
Rig-Veda and that is in the section of the Purusha-sukta.
Tinkering with the texts of the Mahabharata is also evident from scientific
scrutiny. In this case the conversion of the original heroic adventures into
a sort of brahminical bible was not always cleverly done, for in the pandit
redactions the religious and the priestly interest overshadows the heroic,
and the legends related are often distorted to suit the brahminical viewpoint.
`Everything', says Sidhanta, ` is viewed from the angle of the priest, and
instead of a straightforward narrative, we have didactic digression on the
sanctity of the priestly class.' As Pargiter points out, ` The brahminical
versions are a farrago of absurdities and impossibilities, utterly distorting
all the incidents.'
The Ramayana similarly betrays signs of priestly editing. It is generally
agreed that the pronounced brahminical tone did not characterize the original
work, but was given to it at the time of the Revival, when much additional
material was also introduced.
It should be borne in mind that Sanskrit was not originally the medium for
profane literature, for which the vernacular Prakrits were generally employed.
The Epics were long current in the Prakrits before they were rendered into
Sanskrit. We have the opinion quoted by Keith that the Epics were first written
in Sanskrit in the early years before and after the beginning of the Christian
era, and that they were in fact translations and elaborations from Prakrit
originals. And not only the Epics, but Sanskrit secular poetry, lyric poetry,
the beast fable and the fairy tale are all indebted to translations from
Prakrit originals. The Katha-Sarit-Sagar, a Sanskrit collection of stories,
is believed to have been based on an earlier work composed in Prakrit.
The period of Brahminical revival was the age that fixed the criterion for
every subsequent interpretation of Hindu life and culture. It was the time
when the ancient Indian traditions as they existed in the regional languages
were taken over, adapted to the priestly bias and hammered into the new mould
of Sanskrit. Into the sacred tongue the earlier tomes wer transcribed for the
deification of brahmins and the damnation of sudras. Under heavy pressure of
brahmin orthodoxy the indigenous writings were first sanskritized and then the
whole of Sanskrit literature brahminized.
It was in many ways a calamitous substitute. Local nomenclature was altered to
fit the Sanskrit alphabet; native sentiments were put through the mill of
Sanskrit syntax, and a great deal of indigenous material irretrievably lost.
Interpretations of pre-Sanskrit and what might be called `un-Sanskrit' life
were further distorted by wilful tendentiousness that shaped into orthodox
form the mythology, history and even the geography of ancient India. Its
corruptions crept into the regional languages by its insistence on its own
sanctity and stilted rules.
And in most cases it debased what it influenced. The noble early poetry of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tamil, characterized by simplicity and realism, never recovered its freshness
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
after contact with Sanskrit, and Tamil literature was thereafter subjected to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the artificialities of the northern tongue. Practically every vernacular
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
literature has suffered in like manner as long as it lay under the influence
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of Sanskrit influence.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
An analysis of epigraphic inscriptions prior to the Gupta age reveals that
more than ninety-five percent are written in Prakrit and concern non-brahmin-
ical sects, mainly Jain and Buddhist, and only five percent in Sanskrit concern
brahminism. The position is almost entirely reversed in the favor of Sanskrit
and brahminism in the post-Gupta age. The power of the priesthood must have
been tremendous, almost tyrannical, to have achieved this phenomenal reversal.
The number and nature of spurious inscriptions after the seventh century AD
confirm the continuance of this tendency.
The full story of forged texts in Hinduism has yet to be written. It would
make a decided contribution to the lengthy chronicle of misplaced piety the
world over. The Purusha-sukta is only the most conspicuous of a long list of
fictitious texts purporting to be genuine. Max Muller has shown how the
brahmins `mangled, mistranslated and misapplied' the original word `agre'
[dwelling] to read `agneh' [fire] in order to provide Rig-Vedic support for
the burning of widows. As already stated, the Epics were drastically overhauled,
while the corruption of the Puranas and Dharma-sastras continued till after the
Muhammadan conquest. Dr. Ambedkar refers to the well-known case in the time of
the East India Company, where an entire smriti was concocted to support a
particular lawsuit. And K.M. Pannikar refers to the fabrication of a Sankara
text by the brahmins of Malabar to sanction the inhuman custom of unapproach-
ability.
Books:
Ambedkar,B.R., Who were the Shudras ? , Bombay, 1946.
Bhandarkar, D.R., Some Aspects of Ancient Indian Culture, Madras, 1940.
Keith, A.B., A History of Sanskrit Literature, Oxford 1928.
Panikkar, K.M., Hinduism & the Modern World, Allahabad, 1938.
Pargiter, F.E., Ancient Indian Historical Tradition, 1922.
Theertha, Swami Dharma, The Menace of Hindu Imperialism, 2nd Ed., Lahore,1946
***
My comments:
(i) if the RigVeda was composed in India (rather than brought in by
migrating `Aryan' tribes) in 1500 B.C. or so; and the `Purusha Sukta'
dates to ~0 A.D. then, that the caste system began as enslavement of
`Dravidians', etc., is a bit of a myth. (That is, whatever caste system
existed did not have `Vedic' support.)
(ii) Even the Kamasutra was tampered with, in my opinion. For example,
on methods of increasing the size of the male `lingam', several herbal
and other presciptions are given -- about twenty or so. Then, the last
line reads: The blessings of venerable Brahmins, well propitiated, have
the same effect. !!!!!!!!
(iii)It is a well-known fact [ well known enough that the Britannica, for
example, says so without citation], that the first Kanda of the Ramayana
dates from ~ A.D. 200 (while the subsequent ones are much more ancient.)
It is also known that it contains geographical absurdities (for example
Bharata's dash back to Ayodhya after Dasaratha's death begins in the
west, goes to Assam before coming to Ayodhya !)
Its also interesting that the town of Ayodhya, (which is barely mentioned
in the Mahabharata -- certainly not in the main story ) seems to vanish
from all literature in the several hundred B.C. period.
The town of Saketa is increasingly addressed as Ayodhya during the Gupta
era, and eventually becomes Ayodhya, and Saketa vanishes. The local
tradition is that a Vikramaditya discovered and re-established the long-
abandoned (Ayodhya having been abandoned two or three generations after
Rama) town of `Ayodhya' -- however it was most likely Saketa !!!!
The transmutation of Saketa -> Ayodhya is certainly of relevance today !
(iv) while Sati was a very ancient custom, the Vedic support for it was
forged in the same (few hundred A.D.) period.
The original RigVedic hymn is that after a wife lays down beside her
deceased husband, (and is done mourning), she is to be led back to her
dwelling. This has been changed to `led to the fire'. That it is a
forgery is apparent because subsequent verses deal with the widow's
remarriage (which she can hardly do if she's been barbecued.)
***
Anyway, I leave the reader to ponder on all this.
-arun gupta
ag...@andrew.cmu.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(end of Arun Gupta's article posted originally in Soc. culture.indian)
Meenan Vishnu
Ganesh Gopalakrishnan
> Brahmanism practised by Brahmins and every other community has
>to be fought against, not the Brahmins personally. Then the whole
>country will march to the path of progress.
Would some knowledgeable netter enlighten fellow travelers on some
things: what exactly is Brahmanism in the present day context,
what empirical evidence (hard data, not mere campaign rhetoric,
poison pen write-ups in parochial newspapers/magazines) exists
that PRESENT day BRAHMINS in TN practise Brahmanism any more
than other communities, castes (yes, other so called "upper
castes") practise their own "ISMs".
Personally, I feel poor TN is being taken for a very big ride
by its so called leaders who are only interested in serving
their selfish interests and party interests. After all, Kerala
which had a much more rigid social system based on caste in
yester years does not have near the extent of discrimination
that exists in TN today. All Malayalees COMPETE in entrance
examinations for professional courses. Reservations are
limited to the constitutionally mandated ones for SCs/STs.
I would not be surprised if, given its very high literacy,
Kerala is the first state to push for doing away with all
forms of reservations. I was reading the last issue of
India Today (talks about Muslim Youth in India) and was
really touched by the comment of one dynamic Muslim
businessman of Kerala who commented that no community
can come up through handouts and should not hanker after
such handouts. He was very proud of accomplishing what he
has (pretty stupendous by any standards, if I might add),
through his own merit and very hard work.
When are we going to have any kind of merit based system in TN?
After 1000 years? 5000 years? Are we going to be beating this
"dead snake" for ever? Well, we may not be, for a different
reason. I would hazard a prediction that economic liberalization
will open up tremendous opportunities that have never existed
before in India. It may not be necessary to be an Engineer or a
Doctor to lead a happy, productive, reasonably prosperous life.
Also, many other states such as Gujarat and Maharashtra where
very rigid caste systems have existed in the past, do not
have nearly the same hangup about this issue that TN seems
to nurture in its political environment. In an expanding
economy, talented people, regardless of caste considerations,
will be absorbed somewhere. If an innocent person (I don't see
what else to use for a person of any high caste) who has
never been responsible for persecutions of the past, is
persecuted, he or she may well leave TN. If that person
happens to be very talented in a field that is in high demand,
the loss will certainly be TN's. If I may paraphrase Supreme
Court Justice Thomas (do not remember the exact words),
"it is very wrong to hold present generations responsible
for wrongs committed by the past ones".
Also, has any body seen any hard data (empirical evidence)
as to who have benefited from the TN reservation policies?
Has it really gone to the weak and underprivileged? I'm
sure some of it has, but surely some of it has gone to
privileged people who were able to "produce" appropriate
documentation?
Just some thoughts. That's all. Personally, I believe that
TN has explosive talent that will bloom in a free-enterprise
oriented Indian economy, but to take full advantage of it,
it has to put its own house in order. Help the disadvantaged,
by all means (free education, clothing, meals, additional
coaching at the school level etc) enabling them to compete.
But penalizing talented children because of "past misdeeds"
of a different generation is simply not "pahuththaRivu"!
- ganesh
>Kathiravan
Sornam Sankara
In article <1992Nov12.2...@b30.ingr.com> sh...@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shiv
akumar) writes:
>In article <1992Nov12.0...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ssankara@magnus.
acs.ohio-state.edu (Sornam Sankara) writes:
>>
>>
>>There was one movie by John Abraham (MalayaLam director) "agraharaththil
>>Kazhuthai" was never released in TN theaters thanks to the Brahmin lobby. I
t
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>>was not allowed to be screened by the TV in its national network at the last
>>minute, sorry, the last second by our ex. Hon president RV. The story was by
a
>>well known Tamil literary critic Venkat Swaminathan who was a Brahmin and tho
se
>>from the Film colleges say that there is nothing against Brahmins except the
>>title.
>>
>
>To be precise, SOME influential brahmins did that, right? OR did some
>association such as TAMBRAS do it? In any case, such acts are sick
>and deserve condemnation.
Thank you.
>
>At the same time, I challenge John Abrahams to make movies with
>the following titles :
>
>1. Maadha koyilil manidhakkurangu
>
>2. Masoodhiyil panri
>
>I hope this does not spark off a debate on how kazhudhai is not
>half as bad as manidhakkurangu or panri.
True, I have mentioned about this in another posting how Sujatha's story
was discontinued by the violence by Nadar community.
>
>Other attempts at censorship :
>
>1. Around the time Vedham Pudhidhu was made, a movie was made that
>criticized the reservation system. While the Brahmin group objected
>to Vedham pudhidhu as being anti-brahmin (BTW, I did not think so and
>I liked the movie very much),
The movie was a bold one condemning not only othrodoxial Brahmin practices
but also the false caste-pride of the Thevar community. It portrayed the
Sankaracharyas as well as some DK people who oppose the Brahmin community but
keeps the pride of their own community.
But the movie was not realistic and has not touched the root cause of the
caste divisions and fights. Actually MGR didn't do anything here. Only when
Bharathi Raja compromised to remove some dialogues and scenes according to
R.Venkataraman's advice, it was released. RMveerappan helped. Anyway all
these information are not very authentic and vary from magazine to magazine.
>another group charged that the other
>movie (I am sorry I forget the title) was glorifying brahmins. Both
>movies were sort-of censored.
It's name is ' OrE oru kiraamaththilE' produced by somebody called
Rangarajan connected with the Hindu newspaper family. It was again an
unrealistic movie w/o touching the real issue.
It's ban was requested by the Adi Dravidar community organisations such as
Ambedkar Maakal Iyakkam and later supported by DK/DMK (not strange any way).
It was again bad for asking the ban of some movie for some silly reasons. In
this case SC/ST does not have any hold on power and hence the movie was
released by the censor before the organisations saw in theatres and fought
against it.
> While MGR interfered and succeeded in
>lifting the ban on V.P, RV interfered and failed to remove the ban
>on the other movie. Later, after some scenes were deleted, the other
>movie was allowed to release.
>
>I read this in Illustrated Weekly. But media is nothing but a brahmin
>propaganda machine, right ?
>
>2. I heard that when Muhammad bin Thuglak was released, MK said that
>Cho was making fun of Muslims ... (Here, I have no proof)
>
>3. When Sujatha, in the novel, "Sivappu, Karuppu, Veluppu" wrote about
>an Englishman looking at a Nadar woman and the author (who ensures that
>every short story/novel has at least one reference to breasts)
>put in some description of that woman, SOME Nadar community members
>burnt the issues of Kumudham and the serial was discontinued.
>
It was "kaRuppu, veLuppu, sivappu". I have already explained about this
in another posting as the arrogance of the neo-Brahmin people of the recently
developed communities. I will explain this neo-brahmin attitude later in
detail.
>IMHO the brahmins have been portrayed more negatively than most other
>communities in the movies. I personally do not care. And I am not
>saying that Brahmins using some lobby to censor is correct. They SHOULD
>STOP DOING IT, even if EVERY other community does it. Even then the Tamil
>Kaavalars of SCT will blame ONLY Brahmins but they should not care.
>
Please cool down. Let us look at all the castes different from us. Do
you believe in caste ? Then why do you identify with one particular caste ?
Only if we identify yourself with some caste, we are worried about it when our
caste is criticized. Caste is the most idiotic classification in the world.
Let our parents keep such feeling to themselves. Let us not believe in it.
Otherwise, if you accept it then accept all the consequences without whining.
>Now the million dollar question : Let's say we kick all the Brahmins
>out of Tamilnadu and let's say they do not get any voice in Delhi too.
>Will Tamilnadu get better after that ?
>
The same way, let all the Dravidian movements and leaders are deported or
put in prison. Then will the so-called holiness guys can make TN better.
Congress ruled states will tell the story. Both the sides are equally to be
blamed.
Sornam Sankara
In article <1992Nov13.1...@ultb.isc.rit.edu> akn...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
writes:
>In article <fb78.721675994@sol>, fb...@sol.acs.unt.edu (Ganesh Gopalakrishnan)
writes:
>>k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>>
>>Also, has any body seen any hard data (empirical evidence)
>>as to who have benefited from the TN reservation policies?
>>Has it really gone to the weak and underprivileged? I'm
>>sure some of it has, but surely some of it has gone to
>>privileged people who were able to "produce" appropriate
>>documentation?
>>
>>Just some thoughts. That's all. Personally, I believe that
>>TN has explosive talent that will bloom in a free-enterprise
>>oriented Indian economy, but to take full advantage of it,
>>it has to put its own house in order. Help the disadvantaged,
>>by all means (free education, clothing, meals, additional
>>coaching at the school level etc) enabling them to compete.
>>But penalizing talented children because of "past misdeeds"
>>of a different generation is simply not "pahuththaRivu"!
>>
>>- ganesh
>
>
>It is my belief that reservation system is one of the main reasons
>for our poor work ethics.
>
>- Arun.
Mr. Arun,
What is the basis for this statement. I totally condemn this attitude either
as ignorance or arrogance. It is like questioning the ethics of the lower
castes.
Please, enlighten me about the ethics prevailing in the so-called meritorious
institutes like IIT. I spent 6 years in IITM and I know what is the value for
ethics and merit. Except very few professors (you can count), most of them
waste the time and money of this nation. They do not spend enough time
with their researchand they are after earning money by sebbatical leave. They
have no ethics about the authership in papers, torturing research students,
sexual harassment. Sme of them dont even spend the required amount of time in
the dept. Some of them eat the project money. This is the common practice
with all the governement jobs india. The upper classes are not different as
you propose.
Next, merit - rarely merit is a creterion in the appoinments for the faculty
positions, leave alone lower jobs. Most of the faculty members appointed in
the last 10-15 years are fit for nothing. Thier only qualification is being a
Brahmin. I wish they look for some meritorious brahmins ateast. Simlarly the
other non-Brahmin forward communities in the university departments.
I ashamed to tell that I belong to one such forward community and all my
relatives are talking nonsense like this. We dont want to give up our
castes. We need to get married only within our caste. But we dont want only
the caste based reservations. What a double standard ?
S. Sankarapandi
Ganesh Gopalakrishnan
>>
>>It is my belief that reservation system is one of the main reasons
>>for our poor work ethics.
>>
>>- Arun.
>Mr. Arun,
>What is the basis for this statement. I totally condemn this attitude either
>as ignorance or arrogance. It is like questioning the ethics of the lower
>castes.
I think what Arun might have wanted to convey is the "complacency" that
could result from an "entitlement" as opposed to an "earn it" policy.
As for your other comments about the sorry state of affairs at some
of the educational instituions, I still believe that a competitive
environment (where productivity is measured and rewarded) will
cure some of the many ills. - ganesh
R. Sritharan
>
>
>
>In article <1992Nov12.2...@b30.ingr.com> sh...@b30.ingr.com (Shiva Shiv
>akumar) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov12.0...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ssankara@magnus.
>acs.ohio-state.edu (Sornam Sankara) writes:
>>>
>>>
>
Jagadisan Shivakumar says:
>>3. When Sujatha, in the novel, "Sivappu, Karuppu, Veluppu" wrote about
>>an Englishman looking at a Nadar woman and the author (who ensures that
>>every short story/novel has at least one reference to breasts)
>>put in some description of that woman, SOME Nadar community members
>>burnt the issues of Kumudham and the serial was discontinued.
>>
Sankarapandi says:
> It was "kaRuppu, veLuppu, sivappu". I have already explained about this
>in another posting as the arrogance of the neo-Brahmin people of the recently
^^^^^^^^^^^
>developed communities. I will explain this neo-brahmin attitude later in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>detail.
^^^^^^
>
>
[ portions deleted ]
>>I do not know....
>>
>>Waiting to be enlightened,
>>Jagadisan Shivakumar
>>>
>
>
>S. Sankarapandi
Great! Let us start some neo-brahmin bashing!
As a neo-brahmin, I am really offended !!!
-- rst
R. Sritharan
>
>
> writes:
>>In article <fb78.721675994@sol>, fb...@sol.acs.unt.edu (Ganesh Gopalakrishnan)
>writes:
>>>k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>>>
>
Sankarapandi writes:
>Next, merit - rarely merit is a creterion in the appoinments for the faculty
>positions, leave alone lower jobs. Most of the faculty members appointed in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the last 10-15 years are fit for nothing. Thier only qualification is being a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Brahmin. I wish they look for some meritorious brahmins ateast. Simlarly the
^^^^^^^
>other non-Brahmin forward communities in the university departments.
>
>I ashamed to tell that I belong to one such forward community and all my
>relatives are talking nonsense like this. We dont want to give up our
>castes. We need to get married only within our caste. But we dont want only
>the caste based reservations. What a double standard ?
>
>S. Sankarapandi
Could you name some educational institutions in India
where one could get a job by virtue of being a Brahmin ?
-- rst
Sreehari Nimmala
:
: Could you name some educational institutions in India
: where one could get a job by virtue of being a Brahmin ?
"Iyyer-Iyengaar Institute of Technology"(IIT), Madras.:--)
:
: -- rst
NS
Arun
>
>>
>>It is my belief that reservation system is one of the main reasons
>>for our poor work ethics.
>>
>>- Arun.
>
>
>
>Mr. Arun,
>
>What is the basis for this statement. I totally condemn this attitude either
>as ignorance or arrogance. It is like questioning the ethics of the lower
>castes.
>
>institutes like IIT. I spent 6 years in IITM and I know what is the value for
>ethics and merit. Except very few professors (you can count), most of them
>waste the time and money of this nation. They do not spend enough time
Well, I don't know much of what goes on inside IIT but I consider it as the
finest educational institute in Tamilnaadu much much better than the one I
studied. It would take a mile long if I write about what goes on there.
Also, I did not intend any disrespect to Backward classes as I belong to one.
I consider it is the a great disgrace to our self respect that the people
think we need a reservation in the colleges and after that a reservation for
jobs and then a reservation for promotions rather than to compete with the
others. Just the providing scholarships and facilities like free books are
enough. Anything more than that is discrimination.
My opinion is based on this. I worked for more than two years in a private
company which supplies structurals for BHEL, NTPC and Southern Structurals
Limited. Engineers from all of these companies would come to inspect our
supplies. I am supposed to offer the samples and conduct a quality check for
them in their presence.
While the people from BHEL and NTPC were very reasonable and were not
interested anything other than the quality(to a reasonable extent). The
Engineers from SSL were unbelievable and impossible. They would not come
to our lab and they would go home but on the record they will be inspecting
in our lab. A envelope from our company will make the goods passable.
If you are not surprised by this wait for this. Once an Engineer from SSL
didn't even know the formula for the surface area of a cylinder. To my surprise
he did not know the formulas for the area of a circle or perimeter of a circle.
He was shouting in our office that we are all trying to cheat him, later we
learned that the reason is the envelope didn't reach him by time. As soon as
he left there was a big burst of laughter.
You should have guessed the difference between BHEL and SSL by now. I am not
saying that BHEL is the best managed company in the world, in fact it runs in
loss more than its profit. But if you want to know about SSL, it does not
even make enough money to pay their employees and each month, the state govt.
has to pay their salary. I am only saying reservation is one of the, I
repeat, one of the Major reasons for this.(Also it is a monopolised
government organisation which is one of the other but so is BHEL)
- Arun.
Koppampatt R Venkatesh
VAISHNAVA COLLEGE, MADRAS
----
venkatesh
--
| / |~~~~~~| \ / ********************************
| / |______| \ / A shortcut is often the quickest
|/ \ | \ \ / way to some place you weren't
| \ | \ \ / going at all!
A. Francis Chandran
>
>Could you name some educational institutions in India
>where one could get a job by virtue of being a Brahmin ?
Vivekananda College, Madras ??????????????
>
>-- rst
Arun
>>
>>It is my belief that reservation system is one of the main reasons
>>for our poor work ethics.
>>
>>- Arun.
>
>
>
>Mr. Arun,
>
>What is the basis for this statement. I totally condemn this attitude either
>as ignorance or arrogance. It is like questioning the ethics of the lower
>castes.
>
>Please, enlighten me about the ethics prevailing in the so-called meritorious
>institutes like IIT. I spent 6 years in IITM and I know what is the value for
>ethics and merit. Except very few professors (you can count), most of them
>waste the time and money of this nation. They do not spend enough time
>have no ethics about the authership in papers, torturing research students,
>sexual harassment. Sme of them dont even spend the required amount of time in
>the dept. Some of them eat the project money. This is the common practice
>with all the governement jobs india. The upper classes are not different as
>you propose.
>
>positions, leave alone lower jobs. Most of the faculty members appointed in
Wait a minute! How does this info serve your argument that reservation does
not hurt work ethics. So IIT is not a meritorious institute and no wonder it
has no morality when it comes to sincerity. So, you do agree that job
reservation is harmful to work ethics.
Where did I say Forward Community people have better ethics? Please don't
imagine things. Reservation is going to hurt morality whether it is for Upper
Class or Lower Class. I am not for or against any group just against the
reaservation system and it is immoral if it is for Upper Class or Lower
class. Merit and qualification should be the only criterion and for people
who are less lucky the government should help them attain those and not give
away jobs like free lunch.
- Arun.
>
>S. Sankarapandi
Venkatraman Raghavan
>Another Brahmin institution ?
>
> VAISHNAVA COLLEGE, MADRAS
Not true. X das Y das Vaishnava college I believe is
Gujarati Jain/Marwari institution. Definitely not
tamil/telugu brahmin institution. If you had mentioned
Vivekananda, it is a different story. :-)
[Just joking. I don't think Vivekananda has any special
quota other than the government mandated.]
Raghavan, V.
PS: The main gripe in this Brahmin bashing thread seems to be
that brahmin students are disproportionately over-represented in
engineering and other professional colleges.
In any school classroom, children do well whenever their parents
stress the importance of good education, whichever community they
come from. I remember the students who did bad in my class were all
from families where they had decided what they will be doing in life
even at the age of 10 or less (taking care of family business).
This included not only Hindus from all different communities but
Christians and Muslims as well.
C. K. Subramaniam
>>where one could get a job by virtue of being a Brahmin ?
>
>
> Vivekananda College, Madras ??????????????
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nope, since they depend on the University Grants Commision for grant money
reservation policy still applies.
C. K. Subramaniam (ex-viveka)
Shiva Shivakumar
Must have taken a lesson or two from Loyola college, Madras. One of my relativeswas the senior most faculty member in the Math dept when the HOD (Fr.Racine)
died. He was by passed and a Christian professor became the HOD.
He resigned and interestingly got the HOD job at Mohammaden College, VaaNiyambadi.
If IIT, Vaishnava, Viveka and other colleges prefer brahmins to more/equally
qualified non-brahmins, it IS SICKENING - as sickening as when Loyola, New College etc. do it.
Mr.Sankarapandi kindly advised me ("Hey, cool down ...") not to identify myself
as a brahmin.
I generally do not. I wear no pooNal, eat non-veg occasionally, have zero
Sanskrit knowledge, have annoyed many of my relatives/friends by criticizing
brahmins, am equally comfortable with "veettukku vaanga" as with "aathukku
vaango"...
THE ONLY TIME I FEEL LIKE A BRAHMIN is when I read steady flow of anti-brahminicdrivel on SCT.
Pardon my language but we brahmins being only about 5% of Tamilnaadu population,
why the FUCK can't the other 95% make it a better place ?
Jagadisan Shivakumar Iyer