Tendulkar and Hindi

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ravi iyengar

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
Karthik Sankaran wrote in message <9yVw3.5$cR.143@ultra>...
>[I would like to take this discussion to SCI so I am cross-posting to that
>NG]

You didnt do the cross posting thing right, I have taken care of it dont
worry. I think you will get fried in SCI, so For
you to have some good support i have also included SCT. We will continue
this discussion there henceforth if you
wish.


>ravi iyengar wrote in message <7pmqig$ana$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>>Karthikeyan Sankaran wrote in message <37BEA9CE...@home.com>...
>>
>>>Being in USA, the default language for any two individuals to have
>>>conversation is English.
>>
>>Likewise being in India, the default language for any two individuals to
>>have
>>converstation is Hindi.
>
>Not the India I know of. If the Hindiwallas persist with this attitude I
am
>sure the India of future will not be anything that we know of. It will be
a
>fraction of what it is today.

The need is for a common communication language. How will it lead to
fractioning of India? If anything it will help. And if you want to achieve
this
in the shortest possible time frame and least costs, teaching 10 people
hindi
would serve the objective faster than teaching 1000 people english.


> I guess that' what these folks are hoping
>for: purity. Much like aryan
>fanatics here in USA want pure aryan nation.

dont know anything about this. skipped. why are you making this a
superiority issue?
its just to ensure communication.


>>rest assured, the sign language from my side, would be my middle finger
>>and a fuck you smile on my face.
>
>I suppose I or anyone else can do the same. Or one needs to know Hindi to
>do that?

which is what we are doing here anyway. in a different way of course,
objective
of the described sign lang and our posts remain the same. from my side
atleast.


>>
>>KS: A friend recently put me a question: In Malaysia, its a must to know
>>Malaya [their lang]
>>their are tons of indian tamilians there ... but why dont we see this
>>attitude from tams there?
>>why should we learn malaya, you learn english first ..... obviously not.
>>explain to me why sir? i didnt have an answer, as i cant relate to you
>>folks.
>
>
>Tamils of TN know our rights. There is no need to cave in.


Tamils of TN know their rights, fine. But the same Tamils from TN forget
their
rights the moment they land in Malaysia and cave into learning Malaya. Do
you want me to state everything clearly? I thot you understood english very
well.

and please dont speak for tamils en masse alright? I am also a tam and I in
no way associate
or relate to your ideas.


>>regards,
>>ravi
>>~gosh ... such people exist for real? yeh to maine sirf newspapron mein
>pada tha~
>
>Can't believe these Hindiwallas try to impose their language on others.

I am not a hindiwalla. I thot my name obviously gives it away about me being
a tam.

>Why learn a language that has no practical value for most non-Hindi
speaking
>people?

Please keep your travel itinerary between TN and US/Other countries alone.
Then you
are justified with saying Hindi has no practical use for most non-Hindi
speaking people.

Dont stray into any other state in India and complain about how illiterate
goons live there.
Just because you can communicate well in TN, it doesn't make TN a highly
literate state.
The figures posted by APande will give you a good idea.

ravi


Bill O'Brian

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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
>Please keep your travel itinerary between TN and US/Other
countries alone.

Personel wish. He may learn Kannda and travel in Karnataka,
might learn Telugu and travel everywhere in Tellegana
Rayalseema and kakinada. You have problems about that ?

>Dont stray into any other state in India and complain about
>how illiterate goons live there.

Even if I travel, I will never complain as long as you don't
call me a shame. I will do it however if call me a shame.
That is the epicenter of this thread.

>Just because you can communicate well in TN, it doesn't
>make TN a highly literate state.
>The figures posted by APande will give you a good idea.

They do indicate the worst performing state of south is
about the best performer in the Hindi Heartland that too in
1991. I don't have to tell you the amount of developments in
Andhra in the last 5 years.

Personelly I might care a rats ass to learn something.
Definitely, not knowing a language is not a shame IMO.
It is just as bad as saying, someone who is not able to
clear 12 std is dumb. I believe in, learn what you want to
learn, like SRT has learnt cricket. Why pass such a remark ?

Only one question :-
Sincierely, Do you consider not knowing Hindi is a shame ?
Your sincere answer please. I think it is a *bad bad*
statement to make.

Frankly, I don't mind the rule that Hindi+English is fine in
cricket field. But there is a way to say it. No one might
oppose if you say "Since most/all of us know Hindi or
English lets have all the conversations in that". At least
I wouldn't mind speaking in Hindi then. Don't expect sane
reaction if you are impolite.


P.S.: My last posting on this issue.

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!


ravi iyengar

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
Bill O'Brian wrote in message
<11f733ec...@usw-ex0102-010.remarq.com>...

>>Please keep your travel itinerary between TN and US/Other
>countries alone.
>
>Personel wish. He may learn Kannda and travel in Karnataka,
>might learn Telugu and travel everywhere in Tellegana
>Rayalseema and kakinada. You have problems about that ?

I dont think he is willing to do that. If he thinks there is no practical
advantage of
learning Hindi [which will help you survive in Maharshtra, Gujarat, WB
besides all other North states],
I dont see him learning Kannada to travel in Karnataka and Telugu to travel
in AP.

I dont have problems with him not knowing Hindi, but I have problems with
him saying it has no
practical use. It works in most states in India [if you think beyond the 4
states and 1 UT]

Even in Karnataka, many places Hindi will float your boat. So you gain more
by learning Hindi than
learning Kannada to travel in Karnataka.

AP i am not sure.

>>Dont stray into any other state in India and complain about
>>how illiterate goons live there.
>
>Even if I travel, I will never complain as long as you don't
>call me a shame. I will do it however if call me a shame.
>That is the epicenter of this thread.

This thread yes. But the impression you have or some others have hasn't been
formed becasue of this
thread, it has been there for long right? Who called you a shame before
this? Dont name me, I came in
much late after your views were formed.


>>Just because you can communicate well in TN, it doesn't
>>make TN a highly literate state.
>>The figures posted by APande will give you a good idea.
>
>They do indicate the worst performing state of south is
>about the best performer in the Hindi Heartland that too in
>1991. I don't have to tell you the amount of developments in
>Andhra in the last 5 years.

It also shows that the people who call others illiterate goons were
lower in literacy in 1991 than say Maharashtra and Gujarat. Which
is also Hindi heartland for most TNers, including you I think ... so dont
skip them.


>Only one question :-
>Sincierely, Do you consider not knowing Hindi is a shame ?

Nopes. I am fine with someone who doesnt know Hindi. I dont ridicule that
guy.
BUT : Remarks like these, are disgusting and should be ridiculed openly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If some one starts a conversation with me in Hindi, my natural instincts
tell me to assume that the person is not talking to me and to look around to
see if any one else is around. If indeed the person is talking to me I would
try to politely say that I don't know Hindi. Usually at this time the other
person starts talking in English or we just say bye, in sign language, and
move on. No loss there. And never will be.

Why learn a language that has no practical value for most non-Hindi
speaking people?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hope you are including Marathis, Gujaratis, Oriyas, Bengalis etc in
non-Hindi speaking people ... does any one of them say Hindi has no
practical use? If people make such wide sweeping statements, I am well
within my right to ridicule them.


>Your sincere answer please. I think it is a *bad bad* statement to make.

Thats my sincere answer, not knowing is fine. Defending not knowing 'coz its
a useless language is not. Coz its not a useless language.
Now take Mohanty and Ramesh. There is no way these two can communicate
[assuming Ramesh knows zilch Hindi and Mohanty zilch English]
If tomorrow in a series against Pak, we need 25 runs to win and these two
are the last men at the crease what will happen? Let Mohanty learn little
bit english and Ramesh learn little bit Hindi. But if Ramesh says "Why
should I learn Hindi? It has no practical use" , SRT is absolutely right
in saying its a shame. Its your attitude that brings out mine. Tone down
yours, I will tone down mine. Please dont think of SRT`s statement as anti
South, its a wrong thing. You also accept he is not anti south, he is trying
to gell the unit as one.


I have a question AMN:

In early 1998, TN banned the use of sanskrit in all temple activities. "TN
is for tamil, majority do not understand sanskrit at all, so
why sanskrit. We have to respect the feeling of majority." was cited as the
reason.

Very good point. How about this: "If majority of indians want hindi as
national language, will u accept it?".

I have a few more questions, I will ask one at a time.

>Frankly, I don't mind the rule that Hindi+English is fine in cricket field.
But there is a way to say it. No one might
>oppose if you say "Since most/all of us know Hindi or English lets have all
the conversations in that". At least
>I wouldn't mind speaking in Hindi then. Don't expect sane reaction if you
are impolite.

I agree, KS was not polite in his first answer, hence I pounced on him and
will continue to till he drops his bias for
the "Hindiwallas" a bit.

BTW: This was SRT`s second answer in that set of questions as to why he
imposed the Hindi/English rule:

> What was the aim behind it?
> It was to ensure that the whole team knew what was happening.

Now does it fall togethter in place?

Thanks
Ravi


Prakash Melwani

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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to

ravi iyengar wrote in message <7q1goa$gos$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

>Karthik Sankaran wrote in message <9yVw3.5$cR.143@ultra>...
>>[I would like to take this discussion to SCI so I am cross-posting to that
>>NG]
>
>You didnt do the cross posting thing right, I have taken care of it dont
>worry. I think you will get fried in SCI, so For
>you to have some good support i have also included SCT. We will continue
>this discussion there henceforth if you
>wish.
>


Ravi, that's not fair. This NG also needs to be kept informed.

Cheers
Prakash

s5...@my-deja.com

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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
In article <7q1goa$gos$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"ravi iyengar" <bin...@earthlink.net.spamblocked> wrote:

> >Not the India I know of. If the Hindiwallas persist with this
attitude I
> am
> >sure the India of future will not be anything that we know of. It
will be
> a
> >fraction of what it is today.
>
> The need is for a common communication language. How will it lead to
> fractioning of India? If anything it will help. And if you want to
achieve
> this
> in the shortest possible time frame and least costs, teaching 10
people
> hindi
> would serve the objective faster than teaching 1000 people english.

I disagree. Why should non-Hindi speakers be burdened
with learning three languages while hindi speakers learn only
two? This gives the Hindi speakers an unfair advantage. Democracy
is not about achieving things in the shortest possible time. Democracy
is about trying to be fair (among other things). By taking
a path which is good in the short-term, you will sow the
seeds for disintegration in the long-term. So, please take a long-term
view.

The only solution is for everybody to learn English. I am sure
some of you will reject at this as being impractical and
also because English is a non-Indian language. I reject both
these arguments. In todays global marketplace (especially with
the advent of Internet) it is absolutely essential for ALL
Indians to learn English to be competitive. Also, English has
been in India for well over 300 years. Lot of Indians speak it.
There has been a lot of excellent writing by Indians in
English. It is, for all practical purposes, an Indian language
like cricket is an Indian sport.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Dakshin Gandikota

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Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
> >>Likewise being in India, the default language for any two individuals to
> >>have
> >>converstation is Hindi.

That's what will happen when Sonia becomes PM, the bollywood bimbos
take over all/several mainstream cable/satellite channels & 5-day
cricket test
matches become vogue.

ravi iyengar

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
Prakash Melwani wrote in message ...

>
>Ravi, that's not fair. This NG also needs to be kept informed.
>
>Cheers
>Prakash


Sure Prakash, I didnt know folks liked this thread so much :-)
Here are two responses that came:

This ones a reply from Bill Brian to me:

>Please keep your travel itinerary between TN and US/Other
countries alone.

Personel wish. He may learn Kannda and travel in Karnataka,
might learn Telugu and travel everywhere in Tellegana
Rayalseema and kakinada. You have problems about that ?

>Dont stray into any other state in India and complain about


>how illiterate goons live there.

Even if I travel, I will never complain as long as you don't
call me a shame. I will do it however if call me a shame.
That is the epicenter of this thread.

>Just because you can communicate well in TN, it doesn't


>make TN a highly literate state.
>The figures posted by APande will give you a good idea.

They do indicate the worst performing state of south is
about the best performer in the Hindi Heartland that too in
1991. I don't have to tell you the amount of developments in
Andhra in the last 5 years.

Personelly I might care a rats ass to learn something.


Definitely, not knowing a language is not a shame IMO.
It is just as bad as saying, someone who is not able to
clear 12 std is dumb. I believe in, learn what you want to
learn, like SRT has learnt cricket. Why pass such a remark ?

Only one question :-


Sincierely, Do you consider not knowing Hindi is a shame ?

Your sincere answer please. I think it is a *bad bad*
statement to make.

Frankly, I don't mind the rule that Hindi+English is fine in


cricket field. But there is a way to say it. No one might
oppose if you say "Since most/all of us know Hindi or
English lets have all the conversations in that". At least
I wouldn't mind speaking in Hindi then. Don't expect sane
reaction if you are impolite.

ravi iyengar

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
my Reply to Bill Brian reposted to RSC upon request that RSC should not be
excluded:


Bill O'Brian wrote in message
<11f733ec...@usw-ex0102-010.remarq.com>...

>>Please keep your travel itinerary between TN and US/Other
>countries alone.
>
>Personel wish. He may learn Kannda and travel in Karnataka,
>might learn Telugu and travel everywhere in Tellegana
>Rayalseema and kakinada. You have problems about that ?

I dont think he is willing to do that. If he thinks there is no practical


advantage of learning Hindi [which will help you survive in Maharshtra,
Gujarat, WB
besides all other North states],
I dont see him learning Kannada to travel in Karnataka and Telugu to travel
in AP.

I dont have problems with him not knowing Hindi, but I have problems with
him saying it has no practical use. It works in most states in India [if you
think beyond the 4
states and 1 UT]

Even in Karnataka, many places Hindi will float your boat. So you gain more
by learning Hindi than learning Kannada to travel in Karnataka.

AP i am not sure.

>>Dont stray into any other state in India and complain about


>>how illiterate goons live there.
>
>Even if I travel, I will never complain as long as you don't
>call me a shame. I will do it however if call me a shame.
>That is the epicenter of this thread.

This thread yes. But the impression you have or some others have hasn't been


formed becasue of this thread, it has been there for long right? Who called
you a shame before
this? Dont name me, I came in much late after your views were formed.

>>Just because you can communicate well in TN, it doesn't
>>make TN a highly literate state.
>>The figures posted by APande will give you a good idea.
>
>They do indicate the worst performing state of south is
>about the best performer in the Hindi Heartland that too in
>1991. I don't have to tell you the amount of developments in
>Andhra in the last 5 years.

It also shows that the people who call others illiterate goons were


lower in literacy in 1991 than say Maharashtra and Gujarat. Which
is also Hindi heartland for most TNers, including you I think ... so dont
skip them.

>Only one question :-
>Sincierely, Do you consider not knowing Hindi is a shame ?

Nopes. I am fine with someone who doesnt know Hindi. I dont ridicule that


guy.
BUT : Remarks like these, are disgusting and should be ridiculed openly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If some one starts a conversation with me in Hindi, my natural instincts
tell me to assume that the person is not talking to me and to look around to
see if any one else is around. If indeed the person is talking to me I would
try to politely say that I don't know Hindi. Usually at this time the other
person starts talking in English or we just say bye, in sign language, and
move on. No loss there. And never will be.

Why learn a language that has no practical value for most non-Hindi
speaking people?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hope you are including Marathis, Gujaratis, Oriyas, Bengalis etc in
non-Hindi speaking people ... does any one of them say Hindi has no
practical use? If people make such wide sweeping statements, I am well
within my right to ridicule them.

>Your sincere answer please. I think it is a *bad bad* statement to make.

Thats my sincere answer, not knowing is fine. Defending not knowing 'coz its


a useless language is not. Coz its not a useless language.
Now take Mohanty and Ramesh. There is no way these two can communicate
[assuming Ramesh knows zilch Hindi and Mohanty zilch English]
If tomorrow in a series against Pak, we need 25 runs to win and these two
are the last men at the crease what will happen? Let Mohanty learn little
bit english and Ramesh learn little bit Hindi. But if Ramesh says "Why
should I learn Hindi? It has no practical use" , SRT is absolutely right
in saying its a shame. Its your attitude that brings out mine. Tone down
yours, I will tone down mine. Please dont think of SRT`s statement as anti
South, its a wrong thing. You also accept he is not anti south, he is trying
to gell the unit as one.


I have a question AMN:

In early 1998, TN banned the use of sanskrit in all temple activities. "TN
is for tamil, majority do not understand sanskrit at all, so
why sanskrit. We have to respect the feeling of majority." was cited as the
reason.

Very good point. How about this: "If majority of indians want hindi as
national language, will u accept it?".

I have a few more questions, I will ask one at a time.

>Frankly, I don't mind the rule that Hindi+English is fine in cricket field.


But there is a way to say it. No one might
>oppose if you say "Since most/all of us know Hindi or English lets have all
the conversations in that". At least
>I wouldn't mind speaking in Hindi then. Don't expect sane reaction if you
are impolite.

I agree, KS was not polite in his first answer, hence I pounced on him and

Vasudevan Srinivasan

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
Dakshin Gandikota wrote:

if sonia becomes PM, i think the official language will be italian. i have not
been in this conversation from beginning, yet i will put a few words from my
experience. iam writing about the imposing hindi problem, attitude of tamilians
and common communication language. again i am not talking as a representative of
tamil nadu, this is just my opinion based on my experiences.
Basically, this whole topic arises out of:

1. Lack of literacy among the vast majority of people (when thousands of
tamilians dont know read their own language, why the hell they would care
learning some other language)
2. Prejudice and a sort of superiority complex among (some, but not all)
hindi-speaking indians that Hindi is the best language (it is partly caused by
the volume of people talking in it) and an equal contempt of other languages,
sometimes including english
3. Prejudice and insecurity of (some, but not all) Tamils that learning some
other language would cause the "downfall" of their own language. This is mostly
politicized (mainly by the dravidian movements, the hypocritic leaders of which
send their children to convent colleges to learn english and hindi and preach
anti-hindi slogans in election meetings) that many tamils are unknowing victims.
Subrahmanya Bharathi knew french, english and hindi yet he rendered a great
service to tamil. Did these anti-hindi people render at least 1% of the service
he did to tamil? are these people going to "preserve" tamil by being anti-hindi?
naw.

None of them is a positive cause, therefore the result is tragic, so is the
argument meaningless. The issue is projected as sensitive by many and there can
be no common conclusion. The formula is "If you want to survive, just learn it".
No other southern state makes a fuss out of it except tamil nadu. when reality
comes, ie when tamilians go outside, they learn the language invariably, all
their talk about anti-hindi or say anti-bengali becomes meaningless. it should
dawn upon such people that anti-hindi slogans are good only for "speech" and not
"stomach". At the same time, i have seen several north-indians living in tamil
nadu for over 2 years barely learning a few tamil words to speak, coz they have
rendered themselves "disabled" in learning new languages pretty quickly due to
inherent superitioty complexes. this again is not a good sign. my room mate was
from UP while i learnt hindi from him in 2 months (i practically didnt know a
word in hindi, never watched hindi-programs in tv and was also shouting
meaningless anti-hindi slogans before that), he learnt two tamil words from me
for the whole 4 good years we spent, its just the attitude problem among many
hindi-speaking persons, not that they lack skills.

when propelled by necessity a smarter person learns (knowledge is power) and
moves ahead and a less smarter person would still be shouting meaningless
anti-language slogans. i think, the final judgement will be passed on the person
"how smart he was" not "what his principles" are.

my conclusions are:
1. tamils should get smarter and really start learning hindi as a goal of
learning a useful language, not something having been imposed on. for eg,
bangalore is an easier place to survive, any autorickshaw wallaw (many are
tamilian autodrivers) knows upto four languages - hindi, english, kannada and
tamil, why cant madras be smarter? (as an aside, the only 'smart' thing the
madras autodrivers do is sing songs of Rajnikanth)
2. those hindi-wallahs should shed their vain superiority complexes, view that
english is also a necessary lang for survival and understand other languages
have contributed more than their share of indian culture
3. The above two is an ideal situation and i believe it will never happen

but when this balance is achieved, common communication language wont be a
problem. But when language is forced, then sometime in future, we might end up
like erstwhile Soviet Union, where the distinct identity of each republic was
completely overshadowed by Russians and ended up in pieces, now each republic
trying to establish their identity, some like Dagestan are showing their true
nature. But i sincerely believe that it wont happen, because Indian states and
people have much more in common with each other than the soviet republics had in
common with russia.


M. Ranjit Mathews

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to

Vasudevan Srinivasan wrote:

> Dakshin Gandikota wrote:
>
> > > >>Likewise being in India, the default language for any two individuals to
> > > >>have
> > > >>converstation is Hindi.
> >
> > That's what will happen when Sonia becomes PM, the bollywood bimbos
> > take over all/several mainstream cable/satellite channels & 5-day
> > cricket test
> > matches become vogue.
>
> if sonia becomes PM, i think the official language will be italian. i have not
> been in this conversation from beginning, yet i will put a few words from my
> experience. iam writing about the imposing hindi problem, attitude of tamilians
> and common communication language. again i am not talking as a representative of

> tamil nadu, this is just my opinion based on my experience.

I think a few modifications to the way Hindi is offered in schools would eliminate
most complaints:

Right now, schools in Tamilnadu offer (K-10) either English+Tamil or English+Hindi.
This could be changed to
K-7: Tamil+English+Mother Tongue(optional), and
8-10: Tamil/Mother Tongue(optional)+English+Other languages(optional)

"Other languages" could include Sanskrit, Hindi and languages of neighboring states
which, in the case of Tamilnadu, are Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu. With "Other
languages" being completely optional, there would be no coercion. Even without
coercion, a significant number of students would voluntarily choose to learn another
language, Hindi being a prime candidate.

Dr. Dayal D. Purohit

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to

M. Ranjit Mathews <ran...@realtime.net> wrote in message
news:37C4F775...@realtime.net...

Hindi should not be forced upon non-hindi speaking states. English is
the best alternative as a common language among all Indians. Not sure
about other non-hindi states, but in Orissa English is taught from Grade
2 and on, and english is the medium of education in colleges and
universities.

Dayal

Karthik Sankaran

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
My thoughts on the issue of non-Hindi speaking people (particularly
Tamilians) learning Hindi and Govt. of India
forcing Hindi on those people:

(1) No govt., especially GOI, should be allowed to play any role on issues
like this. A govt. simply has no business dabbling in such a thing. In my
view, a federal/central govt. should restrict itself to foreign affairs,
defense, infrastructure such as roads, dams, etc. that you cannot give to
private sector, services such as postal service, law & order (but not
necessarily usurping states' rights and responsibilities). If a govt. gets
involved in social issues such as forcing Hindi on others (or equivalently
in USA a state govt. passing a law or executive order stating that schools,
courts and other such govt. building should display the Ten Commandments)
can be easily seen as an attempt to pander to some particular group at the
expense of other groups; moreover, such attempts should be unconstitutional
in a civilized nation on the grounds that it favors one group and
discriminates against other groups. One can clearly understand that in my
view a govt. has little or no role in social issues (another example is
censorship of movies, books, etc. in India).

I believe the above notion is a good principle to aim for. Because this is
a principle it should be and will be applied in all situations, including if
a govt. attempts to impose Tamil (my mother tongue) on others.

(2) Learning Hindi has no economic benefits to Tamils (I am not going to
speak for other non-Hindi speaking people). For people with professional
degrees (BE/BTech/CA/AICWA, etc) and other advanced degrees, finding a job
in the private sector will not be a function of whether you know Hindi or
not (heck, I know many professionals who work in Bombay who know little or
no Hindi). For those with little or no education (for example, those
looking for manual labor) knowing Hindi is not going to improve their
chances since there are lot of native Hindi speaking people in a similar
situation who will compete for the same jobs and could possibly land those
jobs.

(3) As for the need to know Hindi while traveling in N. India as tourists.
This is such a rare event for most people that such a strategic investment
of time and money on learning a different language for this reason is simply
not worth it. Also, one can get by anywhere in India without knowing little
or no knowledge of any Indian language. Ask the thousands of foreigners who
visit India every year.

Speaking of strategic investment. It will be better, for people from any
region of India, to learn languages in this order:
(a) native language, (b) English, and (c) if possible, another language.
Given the resources, or the lack of it, we have seen that it has not been
possible to achieve even the first objective. I would go a step further and
say that skip (c) above and go to a different level and learn C++, Java,
etc.....to be in a marketable position. No loss if you don't know that
third language. Look at the people who are in USA or in India (especially
Bangalore and other S. Indian cities) who only know their native language +
English + computer programming skills. Undoubtedly their standard of living
improved because they acquired that marketable skill, though they didn't
bother to learn the third language.

=============================

Ravi Iyengar mentioned in this thread in RSC along the lines (I am
paraphrasing his words; sorry if I didn't get them right) that Tamils in
Malaysia had the attitude to accept Malaysian govt.'s order that Tamils
learn Malay. Couple of things about Malaysian society that I know of:

(1) Malaysia practices a sort of discrimination that people in most cvilized
society will find it hard to accept. There, the native Malay people enjoy
benefits that the minority Chinese and Indian community cannot even dream
of. Because the Chinese people have had business success for a long time
they have managed to do well despite the discrimination. The Tamils,
however, have not been so lucky and in fact they are economically in a bad
situation.

The Tamils in Malaysia, as opposed to the Tamils In India, are not native to
the land they live in. Though in a civilized society that, or anything for
that matter, should not be a basis for discrimination, it is possible that
the Tamils in Malaysia feel insecure and thus do not put up as much
resistance as the Tamils in India have done or would do in a similar
situation.

(2) The Malaysian model, if you can call that, is not something to be
followed. In fact it has all the ingredients for a disaster: discrimination
and bleak economic condition for a large part of the population.

In any case, each people will perceive any slights to their rights in their
own way. One cannot compare the different reactions since they are the
result of not only the events that first provoked but also other
circumstantial factors.

==========================

- Karthik

Mo

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
The govt elected by the people has a duty that at least ONE
Indian language is spoken fluently by Indians . Since the
constituent assembly elected by the free people of India
elected that language should be Hindi those who oppose it
can try and get a bill passed in a democracy to nullify it .
Good luck.
The vast majority of South Indians , East Indians are happy
to learn Hindi as it gives them a job advantage in the North
and keeps the Northerners out of Southern India . That can
be rectified by making Tamil too a compulsory language as
representative of the one third of Indians who are
Dravidians..


Dr. Dayal D. Purohit

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
No, my elected government has a duty to preserve my Oriya language and
my Oriya culture. 30 million people in Orissa speak Oriya, may be more.
The Oriyas would rather learn English and excel in science and
technology than learn hindi or any other language.

Strong regional political parties are needed to thwart the undue
influence of the hindi speaking states upon nonhindi speaking states. In
Orissa, we have currently Biju Janata Dal which supports BJP against the
Congress because of past strong arm twsisting techniques by the previous
Congress governments at the center.

The original constituent assembly was not elected by people of India.
Besides, we always have something called amendment to the constitution
if it comes to that. Yes, everyone needs good luck in addition to
perseverance.

Dayal

Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:Hsdx3.987$fl2....@nnrp4.clara.net...

Bill O'Brian

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
Ravi Iyengar,

I don't know, how you say that Govt of TN poking nose into
Temple affairs is a good Idea. I feel it is DUMB idea.
This majority / minority argument cannot be applied
everywhere. In India Hindu and Muslim places of worships
have different laws. This case is nothing but a misuse of
such a idiotic law. Govts have no business in such things
IMO. Anyway the issue is in Court AFAIK.

Besides that, I consider BMRU as Hindi heartland where the
literacy rate is indeed low. I posted about them as none
of u opposed SRT's dirty remark just because he happens
to be your hero.

Why someone should not learn something is
his/her problem. As I have already told each
induvidual/society is function of its own variables and is
entitled to hold his/her/their set of opinions.

Mo

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
"Dr. Dayal D. Purohit" <dpur...@123india.com> wrote:
No, my elected government has a duty to preserve my Oriya
language and my Oriya culture. <
True . And it should be encouraged with federal funds . The
combined people of India however as represented by the
freely elected constituent assembly also chose Simplified
Hindi and English as the link languages and these too should
be encouraged all over India . After all Hindi is already
understood by over 80% or so .
Tamil too should be made a link language . Had it been done
originally there would have been none of these riots..


M. Ranjit Mathews

unread,
Aug 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/26/99
to
Mo wrote:

> "Dr. Dayal D. Purohit" <dpur...@123india.com> wrote:
> No, my elected government has a duty to preserve my Oriya
> language and my Oriya culture. <
> True . And it should be encouraged with federal funds . The
> combined people of India however as represented by the
> freely elected constituent assembly also chose Simplified
> Hindi and English as the link languages

The constituent assembly did not choose any language as an all-India
link language, except for the restricted purpose of a working language
for agencies and the legislature of the Union government.

> and these too should
> be encouraged all over India.

Nevertheless, English and Hindi should both be encouraged and Hindi used
as a working language where (and only where) no other Indian working
language is feasible (eg. in the Armed Forces).

> After all Hindi is already
> understood by over 80% or so.
> Tamil too should be made a link language.

To link whom with whom ? It doesn't make sense to have a large number of
all-India link languages. Tamil is already a lingua franca in Tamilnadu.
Numerous linguistic minorities in Tamilnadu use it as such.

> Had it been done
> originally there would have been none of these riots.

Bah. The riots in the early 60s protested imposition of Hindi. There
were no riots when it was optional. If Hindi were offered as an elective
just like French and German are in higher grades or at the
pre-university/college level, there would be no protests.


Mo

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
Humans communicate by language and all countries in the
world bar none have some link languages usually just one .
Even a diverse country three times bigger than India with
Tibetans and Muslims and Mongolians and others within its
borders has chosen one -Chinese Mandarin as the link
language .
So did the Americans even though the number of German
speakers was about equal . The question is what language(s)
should the people of India choose . English alone is
UNACCEPTABLE as it is so different from other Indian
languages that it will KILL THEM ALL .
Just talk to any convent educated kid in any part of India
and you will realize the truth . English has just about
killed off Swahili in East Africa . Hindi and Tamil have so
many words in common with other Indian languages will help
to preserve them . I as a non Hindi person have no problems
slipping in and out of my language and Hindi .
However some of my relatives who speak English most of the
time cant speak either Hindi or their own language at all .
So in effect because there was no exposure to Hindi -via
books , music , movies they lost their own language too .
Hindi will HELP regional languages survive . English only as
the link will KILL THEM ALL...


M. Ranjit Mathews

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
Mo wrote:

> The govt elected by the people has a duty that at least ONE
> Indian language is spoken fluently by Indians . Since the
> constituent assembly elected by the free people of India
> elected that language should be Hindi

What rot. Where in the proceedings of the Constituent assembly can you
find a decision to make all Indians speak Hindi fluently ?

> those who oppose it
> can try and get a bill passed in a democracy to nullify it .
> Good luck.
> The vast majority of South Indians , East Indians are happy
> to learn Hindi as it gives them a job advantage in the North
> and keeps the Northerners out of Southern India . That can
> be rectified by making Tamil too a compulsory language as
> representative of the one third of Indians who are
> Dravidians..

Tamil represents only 7% of Indians, who are not inteested in imposing
their language on anyone outside Tamilnadu.

Dr. Dayal D. Purohit

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
No language other than English will ever be a common language in India.
English is an universal language. All Indians learn english when they
attend high school and colleges. Almost all insitutions for higher
learning use English as the medium of education. Tamils should never
learn hindi, bengalis should never learn hindi, oriyas should never
learn hindi. We owe nothing to hindi. Hindi is a bastard language
derived from the language of the invaders.

Don't even think about hindi, tamil or any other language to be
considered as common language in India. Let the hindi people speak
hindi. Let the non-hindi speaking people speak their own language. Only
20% of Indian population have hindi as their mother toungue.

India is like Europe where the people are mostly united. I am sure you
would not expect all europeans to speak a common language.

Dayal


Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

news:jEEx3.2653$Ze2....@nnrp3.clara.net...

Manu

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
"M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
>
> Tamil represents only 7% of Indians, who are not inteested in imposing
> their language on anyone outside Tamilnadu.

IMO, Malayalam should be made the official language of India.
All Indians should be taught to speak Malayalam fluently.

Madurai Veeran

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to

ravi iyengar <bin...@earthlink.net.spamblocked> wrote in message
news:7q1goa$gos$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> Karthik Sankaran wrote in message <9yVw3.5$cR.143@ultra>...
> >[I would like to take this discussion to SCI so I am cross-posting to
that
> >NG]
>
> You didnt do the cross posting thing right, I have taken care of it dont
> worry. I think you will get fried in SCI, so For
> you to have some good support i have also included SCT. We will continue
> this discussion there henceforth if you
> wish.
>
>
> >ravi iyengar wrote in message
<7pmqig$ana$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> >>Karthikeyan Sankaran wrote in message <37BEA9CE...@home.com>...
> >>
> >>>Being in USA, the default language for any two individuals to have
> >>>conversation is English.

> >>
> >>Likewise being in India, the default language for any two individuals to
> >>have
> >>converstation is Hindi.
> >
> >Not the India I know of. If the Hindiwallas persist with this attitude I
> am
> >sure the India of future will not be anything that we know of. It will
be
> a
> >fraction of what it is today.
>
> The need is for a common communication language. How will it lead to
> fractioning of India?

If we are willing to learn from history, we would look at the ex-Soviet
Union
and realize that a common language of communication when forced upon
people who are alien to that language is very counter-productive. But, of
course,
we are Indians and will never learn from history.

In all its thousands of years of its existence India never existed as a
nation, though
some of us, especially the brahmanoid kind, always wanted us to believe
otherwise.

The very same factors that led the Soviet Union to disintegrate will lead to
the disintegration of India as well.


>If anything it will help. And if you want to achieve
> this
> in the shortest possible time frame and least costs, teaching 10 people
> hindi
> would serve the objective faster than teaching 1000 people english.
>

50 years is not short enough? And we still are debating about the need for
a common language. Why do you think teaching Hindi to 10 people should
take less time than teaching English to 1000 people?

If people think that their future is inextricably linked to their learning a
language,
whether it be Chinese, English or Hindi, they will learn it in the shortest
possible time.
After all, you learnt English not because you were forced to learn, but
because
you realized that learning English would assure you a secure future.


>
> > I guess that' what these folks are hoping
> >for: purity. Much like aryan
> >fanatics here in USA want pure aryan nation.
>
> dont know anything about this. skipped. why are you making this a
> superiority issue?

My dear iyengar, this is an issue of cultural domination. As if you did
not know that..
Your kind always took sides with the dominant group all through
history...And it does
not come to us as any real surprise that you have strong beliefs about Hindi
as the
binding force for the poor illiterate masses of Southern India.

> its just to ensure communication.
>

What communication? Who are those who need a common language for
communication?

>
> >>rest assured, the sign language from my side, would be my middle finger
> >>and a fuck you smile on my face.
> >
> >I suppose I or anyone else can do the same. Or one needs to know Hindi
to
> >do that?
>
> which is what we are doing here anyway. in a different way of course,
> objective
> of the described sign lang and our posts remain the same. from my side
> atleast.
>
>
> >>
> >>KS: A friend recently put me a question: In Malaysia, its a must to know
> >>Malaya [their lang]
> >>their are tons of indian tamilians there ... but why dont we see this
> >>attitude from tams there?
> >>why should we learn malaya, you learn english first ..... obviously not.
> >>explain to me why sir? i didnt have an answer, as i cant relate to you
> >>folks.
> >
> >
> >Tamils of TN know our rights. There is no need to cave in.
>
>
> Tamils of TN know their rights, fine. But the same Tamils from TN forget
> their
> rights the moment they land in Malaysia and cave into learning Malaya.

You do not have to learn a foreign language (read Hindi) to be labelled
Indian
in your own land. For the same reason Indians accept English in US., Tamils
accept Malay in Malaysia.

Mr.iengar, do you know a small island country called Singapore? And do
you also know that Tamil is one of the official languages of Singapore?


>Do
> you want me to state everything clearly? I thot you understood english
very
> well.
>
> and please dont speak for tamils en masse alright? I am also a tam and I
in
> no way associate
> or relate to your ideas.
>

What a pity Mr.iengar! If it should comfort you, don't worry, 90% of
iengars think like you.

Madurai Veeran


Madurai Veeran

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
I oppose Hindi as a link language for one and only one reason.

It puts the non-Hindi speakers at a disadvantaged position. They have
to learn English, Hindi and their mother-tongue, where as Hindi speakers
have to learn only English.


Madurai Veeran


Dr. Dayal D. Purohit <dpur...@123india.com> wrote in message
news:dUEx3.2278$zp5.2...@nnrp2.ptd.net...

Madurai Veeran

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
I learnt English and Tamil at school and college. I know Tamil
better than I know English. Oh yes, I went to a convent school.

And all your argument is sheer nonsense. If you feel proud of
your culture and heritage, you will learn your mother tongue.

To a Tamil, Hindi is no different than Chinese or English.
They are all foreign.. Just as any Bihari, Gujarathi, UP-ite,
Bengali, Oriyya, Rajasthani, would feel about Tamil.

Look at ex-Soviet Union and learn a lesson. You can not
try to forcibly bind people through a contrived means like a language.
The sense of being Indian should come from within.. You can not
impose an Indian identity through a language.

Europeans with all their disparate languages are more united
than Indians.. Does it tell you anything? And do you think we have
any less diversity in India than the Europeans?

So, please stop this nonsense about an 'Indian lanuguage' being the
unifying force for the masses of India.

Madurai Veeran

Madurai Veeran

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to

Bill O'Brian <bo_b...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:17599f0b...@usw-ex0108-058.remarq.com...

> Ravi Iyengar,
>
> I don't know, how you say that Govt of TN poking nose into
> Temple affairs is a good Idea. I feel it is DUMB idea.

I think you mistake temples and churches to be equivalent
entites. In some ways they are and in many ways they are not.

If the Pope, sitting in Vatican, declares that all the masses
in Catholic churches have to be conducted in Swahili and that
the church goers could do nothing about it, what would the
US government do? Well, you may say, Catholics could convert to
something else and US governemnt would do nothing about it.

But for Hindus, changing to something else is not an option.
It is their temple, their god and why can't they hear the
prayers in a language they can understand. Not that Tamil is any
less in its richness as a sacerdotal language.

Whenever I went to a temple in TN (actually Pondicherry),
I felt that I am forced to listen to something in a language I do not
understand, but there was no one I could complain to.

You know the funny part? Even the prohit (the one who recites
the incantaions) did not know what he was reciting.

Madurai Veeran

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
if you want to develop india the people need to speak english not
hinglish.

"M. Ranjit Mathews" schrieb:


>
> Mo wrote:
>
> > The govt elected by the people has a duty that at least ONE
> > Indian language is spoken fluently by Indians . Since the
> > constituent assembly elected by the free people of India
> > elected that language should be Hindi
>
> What rot. Where in the proceedings of the Constituent assembly can you
> find a decision to make all Indians speak Hindi fluently ?
>
> > those who oppose it
> > can try and get a bill passed in a democracy to nullify it .
> > Good luck.
> > The vast majority of South Indians , East Indians are happy
> > to learn Hindi as it gives them a job advantage in the North
> > and keeps the Northerners out of Southern India . That can
> > be rectified by making Tamil too a compulsory language as
> > representative of the one third of Indians who are
> > Dravidians..
>

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
regional languages only create troubles and divisons in India,
forcing people to speak a language of another state, will create
opposition.
Learning english to have a better future,(media, computer...) will
motivate more, because it is not a language of a special state in India,
but the language of the world.

Mo schrieb:

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to Dr. Dayal D. Purohit
by the way many europeans, if they know another language it will be
mostly english.
therefore easey to comunicate.
If the whole world would speak only english no one will never leave his
mothertongue for that.

"Dr. Dayal D. Purohit" schrieb:


>
> No language other than English will ever be a common language in India.
> English is an universal language. All Indians learn english when they
> attend high school and colleges. Almost all insitutions for higher
> learning use English as the medium of education. Tamils should never
> learn hindi, bengalis should never learn hindi, oriyas should never
> learn hindi. We owe nothing to hindi. Hindi is a bastard language
> derived from the language of the invaders.
>
> Don't even think about hindi, tamil or any other language to be
> considered as common language in India. Let the hindi people speak
> hindi. Let the non-hindi speaking people speak their own language. Only
> 20% of Indian population have hindi as their mother toungue.
>
> India is like Europe where the people are mostly united. I am sure you
> would not expect all europeans to speak a common language.
>
> Dayal
>

> Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:jEEx3.2653$Ze2....@nnrp3.clara.net...

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to Mo
should indians only be understood in Pakistan and India?

Mo schrieb:
>
> Russia has one link language ( and Dagestanis , Yermuks etc,
> have to learn it ) Chinese have Mandarin , America insists
> on English being learnt , Israel mandates Hebrew Why should
> India not have one link language and the most widely
> understood in India , Pakistan and BD is Hindi .

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to
the great split from the catolic church in europe started because they
used to read the masses and the bible in latin language, a language not
anymore spoken in europe. after translating the bible in european
languages, many left the catholic church because they realized that
their teaching did not agree to the bible.
maybe the same is true in Islam, Hinduism, and Buddism.

Mo schrieb:
>
> Its the hypocrisy that is being condemned . Why are the
> Tamil politicians not brave enough to ask the Muslims to do
> it ie read the Quran in Arabic in their mosques ? Why always
> force Hindus to do things ? Btw I approve of sermons and
> poetry in local languages..

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to Nagesh Rao
If bangalore would be the capital of india, then India would have a nice
time.

Nagesh Rao schrieb:
>
> Yeah! and why not Kannada while we are at it? Eh?
>
> Manu <ksm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:37C7240D...@worldnet.att.net...


> > "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> > >
> > > Tamil represents only 7% of Indians, who are not inteested in imposing
> > > their language on anyone outside Tamilnadu.
> >

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to Dakshin Gandikota
spanish had become the 2nd language in the south of USA.

Dakshin Gandikota schrieb:
>
> Mo wrote:
> >
> > And the fact that Switzerlan although land locked is the
> > most prosperous country in Europe is proof that
> > mulitlingualism develops brain power ..
>
> Yes, especially money talks! If polyglots use greater portions of their
> brain than monoglots (e.g. Americans), and that means more power to
> them,
> sure as hell USA is a one big poor country!!!

george...@pop.dplanet.ch

unread,
Aug 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/27/99
to Nagesh Rao
I can agree to the things told.
by the way the forth language is called Romanch grishoon. and is only
spoken in one of the 26 cantons, but recently accepted as official
language, to preserve it. so there are radio and tv programs and nobody
is forced to learn this language.

Nagesh Rao schrieb:
>
> Mo,
> Have you been to Switzerland? I have and can tell you that there is no such
> thing as Multilingualism over there. 74% speak German, about 20% speak
> French, 3% Italian and the rest speak a language whose name I cannot
> remember. I stayed with a Swiss-German family who spoke German, no French
> and the majority did not speak French. When I went across to the French part
> of Switzerland, the few French Swiss spoke only French, no German and so on
> into the Italian part of Switzerland. But all spoke English, so I managed
> alright, apart from the fact that I did not look English helped matters.
> They all love Hindu culture incidentally.
> Where did you get this notion that multi-lingualism develops grey cells etc.
> It is the biggest load of poppy-cock I have ever heard -:)
> Nagesh Rao


>
> Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

> news:PCMx3.2453$fl2....@nnrp4.clara.net...

ranjit...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
In article <37C7240D...@worldnet.att.net>,

ksm...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> >
> > Tamil represents only 7% of Indians, who are not interested in

> > imposing their language on anyone outside Tamilnadu.
>
> IMO, Malayalam should be made the official language of India.
> All Indians should be taught to speak Malayalam fluently.

A droll thought indeed! Perhaps we could allow them to speak
Manipravalam in a clipped manner just in case they have trouble speaking
like an express train with a mixture of Tamil and Sanskrit vocabulary. I
can imagine a campaign in in Kerala:

Sonia: Are you Haji ?
Haji: Arriyonno ? Nammalde Gandhiede koccumol alle ?
Sonia: Non capisco. ("Can't understand" in Italian)
Haji: Ayyoda, nyangalde kuude kaapi kudikum ennu uddeshiccu!
Sonia: Videshi alla; nyaan Bharatiya huu~.
Haji: Bharatiyo ? Stalam vittu pokko! Nyangal Soniaeaa kaathu
nikkunnade.

Vajpayee: Sahodaranmare, nyaan parreyunnadu kelku!
Crowd: Ho, ho! Iyaal Malayalam koraccu koraccu (barking) parrayumenneu
kettadu seriya!


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

M. Ranjit Mathews

unread,
Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
Madurai Veeran wrote:

> I oppose Hindi as a link language for one and only one reason.
>
> It puts the non-Hindi speakers at a disadvantaged position. They have
> to learn English, Hindi and their mother-tongue

and the state language as well (where it is not the same as the mother
tongue).

> , whereas Hindi speakers have to learn only English.


Mo

unread,
Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to

Mo

unread,
Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
All Indian students should be forced to pass exams in
simplified English , Hindi , Tamil and the Mother Tongue
-2000 words - not because it is easy but because it is hard
Only such tough assignments cause neurones to branch
and brain circuits to form and the students to become more
intelligent and take on the world...


Mo

unread,
Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
to
If no language was imposed then all would continue in baby
babble and civilization would not be possible . Impositions
especially those to do with learning languages are therefore
good .
The flexibility Indians have with three or four languages is
what makes Bollywood movies so intelectually stimulating. I
am always amazed at the mixture of Hindi ,Urdu , English ,
Punjabi ,Gujarati .. that makes these movies so much fun .
Even if you switch of the TV and just listen to the dialog
through the stereo when playing a DVD you can enjoy these
great films..


Mo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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All students would have to learn four - English , Hindi ,
Tamil and Mother Tongue -so Hindi and Tamil speakers would
have to pass an exam in another language and that one should
probably be the neighbouring state eg Gujasrat or Punjab or
Maharasthra etc.. Only 2000 words in all 4 languages so they
can easily be learnt ..

"Madurai Veeran" <mark...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I oppose Hindi as a link language for one and only one
reason.

It puts the non-Hindi speakers at a disadvantaged position.
They have

to learn English, Hindi and their mother-tongue, where as


Hindi speakers
have to learn only English.


Madurai Veeran


Dr. Dayal D. Purohit <dpur...@123india.com> wrote in
message
news:dUEx3.2278$zp5.2...@nnrp2.ptd.net...

> No language other than English will ever be a common language in India.
> English is an universal language. All Indians learn english when they
> attend high school and colleges. Almost all insitutions for higher
> learning use English as the medium of education. Tamils should never
> learn hindi, bengalis should never learn hindi, oriyas should never
> learn hindi. We owe nothing to hindi. Hindi is a bastard language
> derived from the language of the invaders.
>
> Don't even think about hindi, tamil or any other language to be
> considered as common language in India. Let the hindi people speak
> hindi. Let the non-hindi speaking people speak their own language. Only
> 20% of Indian population have hindi as their mother toungue.
>
> India is like Europe where the people are mostly united. I am sure you
> would not expect all europeans to speak a common language.
>
> Dayal
>
>

> Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

Mo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Mo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Its the hypocrisy that is being condemned . Why are the
Tamil politicians not brave enough to ask the Muslims to do
it ie read the Quran in TAMIL in their mosques ? Why always

Mo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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M. Ranjit Mathews

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Mo wrote:

> If no language was imposed then all would continue in baby
> babble and civilization would not be possible . Impositions
> especially those to do with learning languages are therefore
> good.

If no language were imposed, people would have to use sign language.
Even in Belgium, one language is imposed (either Flemish, French or
German). No second language is imposed by the state, yet monolingualists
are in a small minority as a majority of Belgians voluntarily choose to
learn 2nd, 3rd and 4th languages.

There is no one language that's spoken by all Belgians. If this implies
that civilization is impossible in Belgium, it behooves you to air this
view on soc.culture.belgian and proffer advice on how Belgians can get
civilized. I would be most interested in seeing what responses you get.

Madurai Veeran

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Swiss became prosperous through the stolen money of
despots around the world.

Silly me.. it is chocolates and cuckoo clocks.. They sold lots of them.

Madurai Veeran

Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

news:PCMx3.2453$fl2....@nnrp4.clara.net...

pallavan

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Majority Indians cannot read or write! First you guys better educate
them in their language the talk this fucking problems!

pallavan

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Very soon your hero Karunanithi will order you to study Hindi!

Madurai Veeran wrote:
>
> I oppose Hindi as a link language for one and only one reason.
>
> It puts the non-Hindi speakers at a disadvantaged position. They have
> to learn English, Hindi and their mother-tongue, where as Hindi speakers
> have to learn only English.
>
> Madurai Veeran
>
> Dr. Dayal D. Purohit <dpur...@123india.com> wrote in message
> news:dUEx3.2278$zp5.2...@nnrp2.ptd.net...
> > No language other than English will ever be a common language in India.
> > English is an universal language. All Indians learn english when they
> > attend high school and colleges. Almost all insitutions for higher
> > learning use English as the medium of education. Tamils should never
> > learn hindi, bengalis should never learn hindi, oriyas should never
> > learn hindi. We owe nothing to hindi. Hindi is a bastard language
> > derived from the language of the invaders.
> >
> > Don't even think about hindi, tamil or any other language to be
> > considered as common language in India. Let the hindi people speak
> > hindi. Let the non-hindi speaking people speak their own language. Only
> > 20% of Indian population have hindi as their mother toungue.
> >
> > India is like Europe where the people are mostly united. I am sure you
> > would not expect all europeans to speak a common language.
> >
> > Dayal
> >
> >

> > Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

> > news:jEEx3.2653$Ze2....@nnrp3.clara.net...

pallavan

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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No friend!
Temples and churches are same and the TN govt must take control of all
religious places!

Madurai Veeran wrote:
>
> Bill O'Brian <bo_b...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:17599f0b...@usw-ex0108-058.remarq.com...
> > Ravi Iyengar,
> >
> > I don't know, how you say that Govt of TN poking nose into
> > Temple affairs is a good Idea. I feel it is DUMB idea.
>
> I think you mistake temples and churches to be equivalent
> entites. In some ways they are and in many ways they are not.
>
> If the Pope, sitting in Vatican, declares that all the masses
> in Catholic churches have to be conducted in Swahili and that
> the church goers could do nothing about it, what would the
> US government do? Well, you may say, Catholics could convert to
> something else and US governemnt would do nothing about it.
>

Nagesh Rao

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Mo,
Have you been to Switzerland? I have and can tell you that there is no such
thing as Multilingualism over there. 74% speak German, about 20% speak
French, 3% Italian and the rest speak a language whose name I cannot
remember. I stayed with a Swiss-German family who spoke German, no French
and the majority did not speak French. When I went across to the French part
of Switzerland, the few French Swiss spoke only French, no German and so on
into the Italian part of Switzerland. But all spoke English, so I managed
alright, apart from the fact that I did not look English helped matters.
They all love Hindu culture incidentally.
Where did you get this notion that multi-lingualism develops grey cells etc.
It is the biggest load of poppy-cock I have ever heard -:)
Nagesh Rao

Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

M. Ranjit Mathews

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Madurai Veeran wrote:

> I oppose Hindi as a link language for one and only one reason.
> It puts the non-Hindi speakers at a disadvantaged position. They have
> to learn English, Hindi and their mother-tongue, where as Hindi speakers
> have to learn only English.

Good point, M. Veeran! That opens up an interesting line of thought. South
Indians seem to teach their mother tongues unlike the 6 states where Hindi is
the state language and the mother tongues (Awadhi, Braj, Haryanvi, Malwi,
Mythili, etc.) are only spoken languages. As a result, as you point out,
people in these states have only two languages to learn in schools. South
Indians, however, like to teach their mother tongues. As a result, a Tamil in
Bangalore learns Tamil in addition to the three required languages of
Kannada, Hindi and English.

#begin satire
Let's even the odds. Let Hindiwallas can learn 3 languages (Hindi, Tamil and
English) and South Indians learn 3 languages (Mother tongue, Tamil and
English). Non-Tamilian South Indians can learn Tamil quite easily since it is
a fairly pure Dravidian language that's related to their langauge. Once this
scheme has been implemented, in accordance with Mo's penchant for a single
Indian link language, Tamil can be made the sole/ primary link language of
India since it will be learnt by more Indians than any other Indian language.
Recordings can be made of all of Karunanidhis speeches in order to test
(similar to TOEFL) Hindiwallas' comprehension of spoken Tamil; if they can't
understand Karunanidhi and read Avvaiyaar, they can't to go to University or
get into the Armed Forces.
#end satire

What do you think, Mo ? The above scheme would seem to realize your stated
goals of preserving Hindi, Tamil and several other Indian languages from
extinction!!!


Nagesh Rao

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Yeah! and why not Kannada while we are at it? Eh?

Manu <ksm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37C7240D...@worldnet.att.net...

> "M. Ranjit Mathews" wrote:
> >
> > Tamil represents only 7% of Indians, who are not inteested in imposing

Dakshin Gandikota

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Mo wrote:
>
> And the fact that Switzerlan although land locked is the
> most prosperous country in Europe is proof that
> mulitlingualism develops brain power ..

Yes, especially money talks! If polyglots use greater portions of their

Dr. Dayal D. Purohit

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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You have a point there. But, kids are being educated in their own
language. I went to public school where the medium of education was
oriya. English and sanskrit were also taught in the school.

Those who can not read and write have not attended schools. So, we there
should be more schools, and education and learning should be promoted.

Dayal

pallavan <pall...@home.com> wrote in message
news:37C7AA52...@home.com...


> Majority Indians cannot read or write! First you guys better educate
> them in their language the talk this fucking problems!
>
> Mo wrote:
> >

Dr. Dayal D. Purohit

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Indians are free people. Every Indian can have his own language and his
own religion/sect. There are thousands of languages in India not just 14
or 15 recognized languages. And, there are thousands of religions too.
Yes, thousands of religions. India is totally diverse.

Dayal

Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

news:5kMx3.2426$fl2....@nnrp4.clara.net...

Dr. Dayal D. Purohit

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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Nope. It wont happen. Only mother toungue and english is necessary.
Learning any other language should be upto each individual. Governemnet
should not spend any extra money to teach any other language which
should be used to build more schools in rural areas and other
inaccessible areas.

Dayal

Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

news:HaMx3.2412$fl2....@nnrp4.clara.net...

Dr. Dayal D. Purohit

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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My point is exactly. Never allow the invading northern Indians to
supress other local languages.

Dayal


Madurai Veeran <mark...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7q7v28$jbr$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net...


> I oppose Hindi as a link language for one and only one reason.
>
> It puts the non-Hindi speakers at a disadvantaged position. They have
> to learn English, Hindi and their mother-tongue, where as Hindi
speakers
> have to learn only English.
>
>

> Madurai Veeran
>
>
> Dr. Dayal D. Purohit <dpur...@123india.com> wrote in message
> news:dUEx3.2278$zp5.2...@nnrp2.ptd.net...
> > No language other than English will ever be a common language in
India.
> > English is an universal language. All Indians learn english when
they
> > attend high school and colleges. Almost all insitutions for higher
> > learning use English as the medium of education. Tamils should never
> > learn hindi, bengalis should never learn hindi, oriyas should never
> > learn hindi. We owe nothing to hindi. Hindi is a bastard language
> > derived from the language of the invaders.
> >
> > Don't even think about hindi, tamil or any other language to be
> > considered as common language in India. Let the hindi people speak
> > hindi. Let the non-hindi speaking people speak their own language.
Only
> > 20% of Indian population have hindi as their mother toungue.
> >
> > India is like Europe where the people are mostly united. I am sure
you
> > would not expect all europeans to speak a common language.
> >

> > Dayal
> >
> >
> > Mo <10033...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

> > news:jEEx3.2653$Ze2....@nnrp3.clara.net...

Nagesh Rao

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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South Indians, however, like to teach their mother tongues. As a result, a
Tamil in
> Bangalore learns Tamil in addition to the three required languages of
> Kannada, Hindi and English.

This is not true. A Tamilian in Bangalore does not have to learn Kannada
compulsorily. Neither does he get taught Tamil. When I did my schooling in
Bangalore, the choice was between taking Sanskrit or Kannada. Sanskrit was a
popular choice because of higher scores that one could get with that. Hindi
was definitely not compulsory. Our Hindi teacher, would more than happily
wave us good-bye if we did not sit in the Hindi class. When the final exams
came up, the same teacher stood outside the door and actively discouraged us
from sitting the Hindi exam (which was optional). I took the Hindi exam
because it was my strong point. The National Government scholarship was
awarded only to those boys and girls who took the Hindi exam and not to
those who did not!!!


>
Non-Tamilian South Indians can learn Tamil quite easily since it is
> a fairly pure Dravidian language that's related to their langauge.

This is again not entirely true. It is easier for Kannadigas to pick up
Telugu, which has similar script than Tamil. At the Madras University, the
North Indian classmates of mine simply refused to learn Tamil, out of some
bullshit North Indian pride. This was to their detriment. The external
examiners from Madurai (real hard core Dravidians) ripped them apart and
failed most of them. I am glad they did so. Taught the buggers a lesson.
Finally they spent the next six months learning Tamil.


> What do you think, Mo ? The above scheme would seem to realize your stated
> goals of preserving Hindi, Tamil and several other Indian languages from
> extinction!!!

Mo's ideas are impracticable and based on some wierd idea than
multi-lingualism promotes Grey cells in the brain. If multiple languages are
thrust on the children, they will have little time to enjoy their childhood.
I think they should learn English and their mother tongue. Sanskrit should
be optional.
>

Mo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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"M. Ranjit Mathews" <ran...@realtime.net> wrote:
> Mo's penchant for a single
Indian link language, <
Not true . I am advocating THREE link languages
English - since its the world language
Hindi-as it is the most widely spoken in India
Tamil-as representative of the Dravidian culture and South
India
In addition a fourth language which would be the mother
tongue for non Hindi/Tamil areas and a neighbouring language
for Hindi/Tamil areas .
Again only a simplified 2000 word version of the three link
languages would be demanded . They may not need to be taught
in schools but would be examined and be compulsory to get
into University or services ..


Mo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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"Nagesh Rao" <Nag...@tesco.net> wrote:
>They all love Hindu culture incidentally.<
What bits of it ? They all spoke ttheir mother tongue and
English . In India they are losing even the mother tongue..


Mo

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99
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"Dr. Dayal D. Purohit" <dpur...@123india.com> wrote:
>Indians are free people.<
And these free people chose Hindi as a link language and
that choice should be respected..


Karthikeyan Sankaran

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Aug 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/28/99