Linguistics, semantic roots of words, modern literature etc. ( was Re: Sleep )
Sundara Pandian
[....]
> If have to go after each and every word to investigate its
> semantic root, I may never be able to speak in Tamil.
First, you don't have to go after each and every Tamil word
with a magnifying glass to investigate its semantic root. :-)
Tamil is very rich in its words, and it will be a herculean
task for Tamil learners if they are asked to understand the
semantic roots of all the Tamil words before they could use them
for conversations. The common Tamil people are not asked either
to understand the semantic root of the words they speak. The
Tamil books usually provide `arunchoR poruL' (arum + sol +
poruL = difficult + words + meanings), but they don't provide
the semantic roots of the words like Selva usually provide in
the net.
Second, this study of investigating the semantic roots enrich
one's vocabulary and helps him to learn words fast. Selva has
demonstrated in the net that we can coin more words in Tamil
with the existing words in Tamil, and these new words may look
difficult to use in a first sight. One may argue that these won't
be difficult when one gets used to them. I would suggest to
look at the semantic roots of these words, and how they have been
coined, or how easy it is to coin more words in Tamil, when we
understand the semantic roots of the words we have.
Third, this coinage of the scientific Tamil words should not
get too technical. I mean, while one can understand the meanings
of the new words that have been coined from a study of their
semantic roots, the linguists or the Tamil scholars should take
an effort to keep their new words with time. I prefer `vaNdi'
to `undhu' for a `wagon', to give an example.
I have some more numbers to add here, but as it looks like a
tangential take-off, I stop with the number three. :-)
[....]
> Simple answer: Kannada borrowed eNNE directly from Tamil, without
> bothering to coin from its own root words. What does it show?. Even
> the basic words of Kannada seem to be from Tamil. So Kannada did
> not develope on its own as a language, but it was born from Tamil.
> When I was talking all these to my Kannada friends they were talking
> about some Gnanpith award winners Dha.Ra.Bendre, Kuvempu, Sivarama
> Karanth, Masti Venkatesa Iyengar (now is one more name is added to
> the list, V.K.Gokak) and several other names. They gave a damn
> whether Kannada was born from Tamil or something else.
> That was one of the ealier blows to my 'linguistic research' and
> decided to be a common man talking about some names like my friends.
First, it is a matter of academic interest whether or not Kannada
was born from Tamil. It doesn't matter whether or not Kannada people
concern about the origin of their language.
Second, not all people have a liking for linguism. I don't think that
your friends not bothering your linguistic comments was a serious `blow'
to your `linguistic research'. If you had talked with some linguists,
I am sure that you would have had a benefitting conversation. On a
related note, not all linguists have an interest in modern literature.
They may not give a damn about Puthumaippithan or Pichamurthy. Some
linguists may not have even heard of them. I think there is some
generation gap between linguistics and modern literature. There are
scholars, however, who know linguistics and have a fair knwoledge of
modern Tamil literature, like Kamil Zvelebil etc. Selva also wrote
in one of his earlier articles that he had read Sundara Ramaswamy.
> P.S: I was such a big 'thaniththamizh' lover those days, I was just
> short of changing my name to 'azhaguchchilai' ;-)
Selva may like this Tamil name. :-)
> P.P.S: Sivarama Karanth is an household name in Karanataka. Ask about
> Pudumaipithan in Tamil Nadu.
> 'entha cinimaala paattu ezhudhinaru'.
Puthumaipithan is not recognized in TN, but Jeyakanthan, who writes in
PP's trend, is popular in TN. May be, because Jeyakanthan wrote in popular
magazines like Ananda Vikatan, Dinamani Kathir, Kumkumam, etc. His movie
`sila nErankaLil sila manidharkaLil' was liked by the Tamils. There was
also a TV serial on his stories once in Madras Doordharsan. The magazines
and TV media play a role in presenting or introducing good writers to
Tamil public. Unfortunately, the magazines and TV media highlight mostly
the `movie culture' and the `political culture' and the good writers in
Tamil literature are either ignored or sidelined. Komal's new Tamil
magazine `Subamangala' is a good effort and I am glad that his magazine
has a good subscription. I welcome more magazines like this.
>M. Sundaramoorthy
>sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>sun...@esv1.hsis.uci.edu
SP
M. Sundaramoorthy
Note to SP: Since yous comments are general, mostly agreeable and few
not, I chose to quote them fully. My replies are not necessarily
direct replies to your comments. They are also general observations.
In article <930423131...@cec1.wustl.edu> s...@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>In a previous article, sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) says:
>
> [....]
>
>> If have to go after each and every word to investigate its
>> semantic root, I may never be able to speak in Tamil.
>
> First, you don't have to go after each and every Tamil word
>with a magnifying glass to investigate its semantic root. :-)
>Tamil is very rich in its words, and it will be a herculean
>task for Tamil learners if they are asked to understand the
>semantic roots of all the Tamil words before they could use them
>for conversations. The common Tamil people are not asked either
>to understand the semantic root of the words they speak. The
>Tamil books usually provide `arunchoR poruL' (arum + sol +
>poruL = difficult + words + meanings), but they don't provide
>the semantic roots of the words like Selva usually provide in
>the net.
[Let me quickly reply to KK about 'niththirai'. He claims
he had to travel 10,000 miles to learn that word. I hope
it is not in Canadian Tamil.
(0). He says, SL Tamils, from Jaffna to Colombu, use this
word. Just a few hundred miles trip from Kangayam
would have been enough to learn that. :-)
(1). Sometime back, some one posted a piece attributing
it to one of KK's beloved leaders Anna or Kalaignar:
'maadhamO siththirai, maNiyO paththarai, ungaLukkO
niththirai, suriyanukku muththirai'
If a 'thamizhinath thaliavar' used that it has to be Tamil :-).
(2). If he ever read issues of any four popular magazines of
one week or any one magazine for four weeks, he couldn't
have missed a description in at least one story, like:
'avanai niththiradEvi aNaiththuk koNdaaL'
(just an example of creativity in popular magazines ;-)).
(3). There is a good chance of 'niththirai' appearing in some
film songs of his favourite poets Kaviyarasu Kannadasan
and Kaviyarasu Jr. Vairamuthu. If 'siththirai' comes in a
line, the next line should probably have 'niththirai',
as there are not many choices. (After all, pairs like
kaaviyam-Oviyam, oru paadhi-maRu paadhi, aamai-oomai,
pandhu-sindhu, agaram-sigaram etc. are not uncommon, no
matter they make sense or not).]
The research whether 'niththirai' is Tamil or Sanskrit
can go endless. Next, I can throw the word 'muththirai' to
find out if it is Tamil or Sansk. (thanks to KK for his
truncation of Sanskrit, equal in length to Tamil ;-)).
This is what I call 'muttaikku (or mottaikku) mayir edukkira
vElai'. Please do not assume that I am against lingusitics.
There are too many (pseudo)linguists in Tamil, that is not really
necessary, while there are many unattended fields. I don't think
people from any other language would be spending this much time
in this kind of things. This 'gloriest past/classical language'
attitude looks to me more of a burden than help to shape the
present and future.
About common people not bothering about these 'semantic root'
business, let me explain my personal experience, which can
throw some light on how the 'Tamil Pundits' make a common man
feel guilty or even make him a non-Tamil.
We, in IISc Tamil association, decided to bring out 'aaNdu malar',
because we had suprlus money after fulfilling the basic requirements
(that is screening Tamil movies, buying Kumudam, LP records etc).
I used to go a printing press, whose owner was a 'Thanithamizh'
lover and his press became a center for 'Thanithamizh' lovers to
gather in the evenings and discuss. One of them was browsing our
'aaNdu malar'. He wanted to comment on an article I wrote in that
about Sri Lankan Tamils' issue, extensively quoting poets, Va.I.Sa.
Jayapalan and Cheran. He said "nallaa thaan ezudhi irukkeenga.
aana thamizhla ezhuthi irukkaNum". Probably, that was prompted by
a small percentage of Sanskrit words in the article, which I would
have used unconsiously, because they have become a part of contemporary
Tamil. If I have to think of 'correct and 100% pure Tamil' words,
I would have given up the very idea of writing that article or
written some poem, with standard phrases, like 'thamizha thOL
thattu, maar thattu, kodhiththezhu, gudhiththezhu, etc.
I was little shocked and also annoyed. Not only it was a mockery
on me, but also those poets, who definitely used more 'non-Tamil'
words than me and of course, the theme of the article itself, which
he did not bother to comment at all. If these people are asked
to give certificates to Tamil writings, we may be left with only
stereotype verses praising 'Thamizhannai' or Sangathamizharin
veeram, kaadhal etc.
Discussing words in isolation doesn't make any sense to me. Please,
note I am not talking against any professional linguists or for that
matter even amateurs, if the interest is only linguistic, not just to
talk about 'Tamil pride'. It is only a criticism on self styled
gaurdians of 'Thamizhannai'.
>
> Second, this study of investigating the semantic roots enrich
>one's vocabulary and helps him to learn words fast. Selva has
>demonstrated in the net that we can coin more words in Tamil
>with the existing words in Tamil, and these new words may look
>difficult to use in a first sight. One may argue that these won't
>be difficult when one gets used to them. I would suggest to
>look at the semantic roots of these words, and how they have been
>coined, or how easy it is to coin more words in Tamil, when we
>understand the semantic roots of the words we have.
Why one has to always coin words from 'semantic roots'?.
From my little knowledge about Tamil grammar, I recall there are
two concepts: 'kaaraNap peyar' and 'idukuRip peyar'. Doesn't the
second one give enough freedom to import new words or even coining
words, without the help of some root words?. Coining words from roots,
many time results in definitions, not words. And also, the words
become useless eventually when the concepts developes or take
differnt forms. Kitty 'Bum' Sundaram already demonstrated this
in the case of 'Train'.
Moreover, if the foriegn words do not violate the basic
grammar rules and if they sound like Tamil, what is wrong in using
them?. For example, 'car' sounds very much like a Tamil word. In
fact we already have a Tamil word 'kaar', meaning rain. What is
wrong in adding another meaning to the already existing Tamil
word?. Going after the root 'undhu' and coining 'siRRundhu'
looks funny (no offence intended to any individual, who favoured
this word). And another example is 'cell'. There is a Tamil verb 'cell',
meaning 'to go'. Is it wrong to add another meaning (noun) to that
Tamil word to indicate cell in biology?. It can extend futher to give
more related words also. celluyiriyal - cellular biology, oru
celluyirigaL - single cellular organism etc.
>
> Third, this coinage of the scientific Tamil words should not
>get too technical. I mean, while one can understand the meanings
>of the new words that have been coined from a study of their
>semantic roots, the linguists or the Tamil scholars should take
>an effort to keep their new words with time. I prefer `vaNdi'
>to `undhu' for a `wagon', to give an example.
Sometimes these attempts turn into real jokes. I came across an
'aRiviyal thamizh dictionary', presumably compiled by a Thanithamizh
lover. He not only coined new words, which were mere definitions, for
which there are already good Tamil words that can be found in
text books, but also 'pure Tamil' terms for standard units, like
Ampere, Ohm, Volt etc. The love for one's language shouldn't turn into
a mockery of scientists, after whom these units stand. This shows
either his ignorance or sheer fanatism. I am totally against this
kind of mass-production of words, which is no way a contribution
to a language, for that matter, not even an ornament to Thamizhannai.
Bringing concepts is more important than sitting in a room and
mass producing words. When you try to bring a new concept into
Tamil, say by writing a book or an article, you would try to coin
some words. When the reader reads that there is a good chance of
grasping the new word introduced in the article. Any future article
on the same concept would use the word, if it sounds correct, or
a new word will be used by its author. That is how the words
should evolve and become popular, in my non-linguist opinion.
On the other hand, producing 100 words, when the concept in which
those words can be used is not available, how do you sell those
words to the public, just by publishing a dictionary?. When does one
need a dictionary?. Only if we encounter a word, whose meaning is not
known to us, we have to turn the pages of dictionary.
Dicitionary is not a source of knowledge, by itself. When we don't have
sources of knowledge, there is no point in compiling dictionaries.
>
> I have some more numbers to add here, but as it looks like a
>tangential take-off, I stop with the number three. :-)
>
> [....]
>
>> Simple answer: Kannada borrowed eNNE directly from Tamil, without
>> bothering to coin from its own root words. What does it show?. Even
>> the basic words of Kannada seem to be from Tamil. So Kannada did
>> not develope on its own as a language, but it was born from Tamil.
>
>> When I was talking all these to my Kannada friends they were talking
>> about some Gnanpith award winners Dha.Ra.Bendre, Kuvempu, Sivarama
>> Karanth, Masti Venkatesa Iyengar (now is one more name is added to
>> the list, V.K.Gokak) and several other names. They gave a damn
>> whether Kannada was born from Tamil or something else.
>
>> That was one of the ealier blows to my 'linguistic research' and
>> decided to be a common man talking about some names like my friends.
>
> First, it is a matter of academic interest whether or not Kannada
>was born from Tamil. It doesn't matter whether or not Kannada people
>concern about the origin of their language.
You missed the point. I was just comparing the attitudes of people
from two different linguistic backgrouds, not just the personal
interests.
I was trying to establish the Tamil supremacy with my own half-
baked 'linguistic theroies', while they were talking proud of Kannada
winning Gnanpith award four times, the maximum for any language
at that time (of cource, Hindi also had four at that time). The reason
is simply the kind of exposure, for which, of course, academicians
are responsible.
This academic interest seems to be more with Tamils than others,
simply to establish Tamil supremacy, which in fact is a burden to
us in my opinion. This is actually not a genuine interest with many
people, but a simple tool for self-boasting about Tamil antiquity and
richness. This, most of the time, prevents original thinking because,
we tend to quote some ancient works for everything and repeating the
same thing again and again.
>
> Second, not all people have a liking for linguism. I don't think that
>your friends not bothering your linguistic comments was a serious `blow'
>to your `linguistic research'. If you had talked with some linguists,
>I am sure that you would have had a benefitting conversation. On a
>related note, not all linguists have an interest in modern literature.
>They may not give a damn about Puthumaippithan or Pichamurthy. Some
>linguists may not have even heard of them. I think there is some
>generation gap between linguistics and modern literature. There are
>scholars, however, who know linguistics and have a fair knwoledge of
>modern Tamil literature, like Kamil Zvelebil etc. Selva also wrote
>in one of his earlier articles that he had read Sundara Ramaswamy.
No, not a generation gap. But lack of insight with most people,
who talk about Tamil pride. Not only this, they even pushed
some junk writings as great literary pieces, in past few decades,
in the name of purity, chasitity etc. Another aspect is they
want to claim everything was already there in Tamil, which is just
mirror image of the attitude of Vedic supremacists.
Suradha, while writing an 'aNindhurai' poem to one of Abdul Rahman's
poetry collection, just passed a remark some Parameswaran Pillai
wrote Pudhukkavidai in the last century itself, that puts him
well before Walt Whitman, who, we think, inspired Na.Pi. to write
pudhukkavidhai in Tamil. This has become a reference to some Tamil
supremacists to claim, pudhukkavidhai is not really 'pudhukkavidhai'
for Tamils. Till this date, no one knows who is that Parameswaran
Pillai and what exactly he wrote.
>
>> P.S: I was such a big 'thaniththamizh' lover those days, I was just
>> short of changing my name to 'azhaguchchilai' ;-)
>
> Selva may like this Tamil name. :-)
>
>
>> P.P.S: Sivarama Karanth is an household name in Karanataka. Ask about
>> Pudumaipithan in Tamil Nadu.
>> 'entha cinimaala paattu ezhudhinaru'.
>
> Puthumaipithan is not recognized in TN, but Jeyakanthan, who writes in
>PP's trend, is popular in TN. May be, because Jeyakanthan wrote in popular
>magazines like Ananda Vikatan, Dinamani Kathir, Kumkumam, etc. His movie
>`sila nErankaLil sila manidharkaLil' was liked by the Tamils. There was
>also a TV serial on his stories once in Madras Doordharsan. The magazines
>and TV media play a role in presenting or introducing good writers to
>Tamil public. Unfortunately, the magazines and TV media highlight mostly
>the `movie culture' and the `political culture' and the good writers in
>Tamil literature are either ignored or sidelined. Komal's new Tamil
>magazine `Subamangala' is a good effort and I am glad that his magazine
>has a good subscription. I welcome more magazines like this.
>
>>M. Sundaramoorthy
>>sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>>sun...@esv1.hsis.uci.edu
>
> SP
>
>
It is not only due to the popular magazines. The Tamil puritans
are equally responsible. Selva might blame some political groups
for exploiting the greatness of Tamil to further their ambitions.
But the reverse also is equally true. In other words they both
operated serving each others' interests. The Tamil puritans did make use
of these political groups to push their Tamil supremacist ideas and
make a common Tamil feel writing in a pure Tamil is by itself a
piece of literature. If I write, 'vaNdamizh valaiyil, senthamizh
seppi, painthamizh parappum paaNdiyarE..', there is good chance
for some people to think 'sundar kavidhai nadaiyila ezhudhaRaaru'.
Mere word juggling has become 'poetry' in Tamil these days, that too
while having best poetry of Sangam age, which talk of life in plain
words.
Some semi-pornographic writings, describing romance and bodily features
of some princesses have become great literature. And one such writer,
even gets Rajarajan award, Sahaitya academy award etc.
Let me stop here.
P.S: I may not be able to continue this thread.
--
M. Sundaramoorthy
sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
sun...@esv1.hsis.uci.edu
V. Nagarajan
> (3). There is a good chance of 'niththirai' appearing in some
> film songs of his favourite poets Kaviyarasu Kannadasan
> and Kaviyarasu Jr. Vairamuthu. If 'siththirai' comes in a
> line, the next line should probably have 'niththirai',
> as there are not many choices. (After all, pairs like
> kaaviyam-Oviyam, oru paadhi-maRu paadhi, aamai-oomai,
> pandhu-sindhu, agaram-sigaram etc. are not uncommon, no
> matter they make sense or not).]
Here's a "poem" for you:
Niththirai-yai nee maRakka, neela vizhi thAn sivakka
Muththirai-yai nAn padhikka, munnooru nAL nadakkum...
(Vali?)
>
> Why one has to always coin words from 'semantic roots'?.
> From my little knowledge about Tamil grammar, I recall there are
> two concepts: 'kaaraNap peyar' and 'idukuRip peyar'. Doesn't the
> second one give enough freedom to import new words or even coining
> words, without the help of some root words?. Coining words from roots,
> many time results in definitions, not words. And also, the words
> become useless eventually when the concepts developes or take
> differnt forms. Kitty 'Bum' Sundaram already demonstrated this
> in the case of 'Train'.
>
> Moreover, if the foriegn words do not violate the basic
> grammar rules and if they sound like Tamil, what is wrong in using
> them?. For example, 'car' sounds very much like a Tamil word. In
> fact we already have a Tamil word 'kaar', meaning rain. What is
> wrong in adding another meaning to the already existing Tamil
> word?. Going after the root 'undhu' and coining 'siRRundhu'
> looks funny (no offence intended to any individual, who favoured
> this word). And another example is 'cell'. There is a Tamil verb 'cell',
> meaning 'to go'. Is it wrong to add another meaning (noun) to that
> Tamil word to indicate cell in biology?. It can extend futher to give
> more related words also. celluyiriyal - cellular biology, oru
> celluyirigaL - single cellular organism etc.
>
Great suggestion. I think the crusade to "clean up" tamil is
ill-founded. Language is an organic entity. Like a river, it finds
its own way. As you have said elsewhere in this article, what is
needed is not new dictionaries but new literature, and, I might
add, literature that reflects our thinking and our way of life
and which, in turn, makes us think and live deliberately.
Lately I have been reading nAnjil nAdan. I am struck by the
extraordinary diversity that exists between the nAnjil dialect and
(my own) thanjai dialect. It is literature that keeps words alive,
shapes them and even invents them - not some "word-inventors"
or bean counters sitting in a basement permuting and tesselating
root words. I would unhesitatingly recommend lA-sa-rAmamirutham to
anyone who wishes to see how new words almost magically appear
(like Saibaba's Seiko watch-trick ;-) in the hands of an extra-
ordinarily creative person.
>
> Sometimes these attempts turn into real jokes. I came across an
> 'aRiviyal thamizh dictionary', presumably compiled by a Thanithamizh
> lover. He not only coined new words, which were mere definitions, for
> which there are already good Tamil words that can be found in
> text books, but also 'pure Tamil' terms for standard units, like
> Ampere, Ohm, Volt etc. The love for one's language shouldn't turn into
> a mockery of scientists, after whom these units stand.
Excellent and a very original point!
> I was trying to establish the Tamil supremacy with my own half-
> baked 'linguistic theroies', while they were talking proud of Kannada
> winning Gnanpith award four times, the maximum for any language
> at that time (of cource, Hindi also had four at that time). The reason
> is simply the kind of exposure, for which, of course, academicians
> are responsible.
But if Kannada did indeed originate from Tamil, then we get the
credit too ;-) !
> Suradha, while writing an 'aNindhurai' poem to one of Abdul Rahman's
> poetry collection, just passed a remark some Parameswaran Pillai
> wrote Pudhukkavidai in the last century itself, that puts him
> well before Walt Whitman, who, we think, inspired Na.Pi. to write
> pudhukkavidhai in Tamil. This has become a reference to some Tamil
> supremacists to claim, pudhukkavidhai is not really 'pudhukkavidhai'
> for Tamils. Till this date, no one knows who is that Parameswaran
> Pillai and what exactly he wrote.
And the funny thing is no one I have heard/read praises Walt Whitman
for the technique. It is the contents that matter. Even if Parameswaran
Pillai "invented" pudhukkavithai, what did he have to say in them?
We are so interested in claiming credits for cosmetics.
There is another aspect to this: proving the greatness of our
literature by appealing to (questionable) authority. "ThirukkuraL
is one of the greatest pieces of world literature. If you don't
buy that, read what Schweitzer had to say" and so on. Our critical
faculties seem to have been completely shut out. We exist in a
semi-rational twilight zone.
>
> Mere word juggling has become 'poetry' in Tamil these days, that too
> while having best poetry of Sangam age, which talk of life in plain
> words.
>
> Some semi-pornographic writings, describing romance and bodily features
> of some princesses have become great literature. And one such writer,
> even gets Rajarajan award, Sahaitya academy award etc.
Contemporary tamil literature is exceptional in that, unlike in other
indian languages, almost all the writing (> 90%) is highly stylized
social fantasy meant for entertainment.
Finally, a wonderful piece Sundaramoorthy! It's good to see two
simultaneous threads (Sankarapandi's and yours) analyzing the
current situation in TN.
- Nagarajan
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>>poruL = difficult + words + meanings), but they don't provide
>>the semantic roots of the words like Selva usually provide in
>>the net.
> [Let me quickly reply to KK about 'niththirai'. He claims
> he had to travel 10,000 miles to learn that word. I hope
> it is not in Canadian Tamil.
You already made your point about that
I do have a lot of respect for your views about
modern thamizh that I am ignorant of.
About 10,000 miles for that word:
Yes. True. I say as I see and feel. poip paRai
emmidaiyE kidaiyaathu. If I see truth I
like to know that.
When I first met an anpar
Yasotharan in '87 [saskatoon.canada] and invited him to my house
it was a new experience listening to a different
thamizh. My Indian friends who considered me using
proper thamizh said'there is your rival' for a joke.
A lot of things like marak kaRi that I have read only
in texts were used. I have read marak kaRi in poems.
But at that time niththirai was a new word for me.
I wanted to know about that word and hence the question.
> (0). He says, SL Tamils, from Jaffna to Colombu, use this
> word. Just a few hundred miles trip from Kangayam
> would have been enough to learn that. :-)
I am sorry. No.
> (1). Sometime back, some one posted a piece attributing
> it to one of KK's beloved leaders Anna or Kalaignar:
How did you conclude aNNa and kalaignar are my favourite
leaders? That statement is your whimsical
assumption. I have known about even PERIYAAR only
from relatives. I was aware of things
like emergency, arrest of kalaignar, dismissal
of kalaignar in '89. My parents do not like
politics. They will not let us even talk
about it. My mother used to say periyaar
used foul language and women can never attend
his meetings. She was told that. But I found
that it was not true later.
.
Well I just raised a question out of curiousity.
I could have sent paaNdiar a mail. I did not know
that you would get so upset about that. If you
did not like it its OK. That is why when
you said muttaiyil mayir edukiRathu I
did not reply. I took that as a constructive
criticism. But you are again and again
delving on that with the same, "muttaiyil
mayir edukiRa maathiri".
> 'maadhamO siththirai, maNiyO paththarai, ungaLukkO
> niththirai, suriyanukku muththirai'
I was probably a kid or never born when aNNa was there.
I have never attended political meetings.
The thamizh magazines I read were only when I
went to barber's shop. [most of them
were sheer crap and I would just turn pages]
When someone posted that statement of aNNaa
I read that. I never heard that before.
.
> If a 'thamizhinath thaliavar' used that it has to be Tamil :-).
> (2). If he ever read issues of any four popular magazines of
> one week or any one magazine for four weeks, he couldn't
> have missed a description in at least one story, like:
I have said earlier that I do not read any
magazine. My mother used to buy
raaNi for some cooking recipe or
something. When we knew how to read
those magazines my dad stopped buying them
I have seldom seen movies in India. We
were given some present for not accompanying
dad and mum for movies.
I have seen more movies after '87 in canada`
than in India. I saw even movies like
paasa malar only in toronto.
Whatever I have read is
only: TN school THAMIZH text books, some kuRaL,
akam/puram, auwwaiyaar,
kuRunthokai, vaasagam, anupoothi, thEvaaram
etc. Whatever katturais I have written
were for course requirements. I have
actively participated in patti manRams/dramaas
and only used the above references even
if needed some..
> 'avanai niththiradEvi aNaiththuk koNdaaL'
>
> (just an example of creativity in popular magazines ;-)).
New stuff for me.
>
> This is what I call 'muttaikku (or mottaikku) mayir edukkira
> vElai'. Please do not assume that I am against lingusitics.
> There are too many (pseudo)linguists in Tamil, that is not really
> necessary, while there are many unattended fields. I don't think
> people from any other language would be spending this much time
> in this kind of things. This 'gloriest past/classical language'
> attitude looks to me more of a burden than help to shape the
> present and future.
I see a lot of new and different ideas in you.
That is why when you told pseudo poets I was ignorant
of new, other than cinema poets and I sincerely
wanted to know why? Please excuse me for raising or
harping on that
niththirai question. I am not a thanith thamizh campaigner
or anything. I do like to know where the words
came from. Of late I have tried
to understand some sanskrit words in anupoothi.
I did learn from paaNdiar/baalaji response
anban
KATHIRAVAN
M. Sundaramoorthy
>In <2BD865A...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
Hi KK,
I apologise, if my comments on your 'niththirai' query hurt you.
I normally don't use smileys, but used almost in every para. to
indicate the intention was not to hurt you and to show how common
the word 'niththirai' in Tamil is. And also, please note that, my
comments related to your query were enclosed in [] and the rest
were in response to SP's comments on lingusitics, modern literature
etc.
On a defferent note, I don't say your admiration to Tamil is
wrong, but I wish your perspective changes.
> anban
> KATHIRAVAN
M. Sundaramoorthy
>In article <2BD865A...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
Thanks to Nagarajan for complmenting with some points.
>>
>> Some semi-pornographic writings, describing romance and bodily features
>> of some princesses have become great literature. And one such writer,
>> even gets Rajarajan award, Sahaitya academy award etc.
>
> Contemporary tamil literature is exceptional in that, unlike in other
> indian languages, almost all the writing (> 90%) is highly stylized
> social fantasy meant for entertainment.
Many might remember, SP posted a news item from Times of India
about the winners of this year Sahitya Academy award. For Tamil
category, 'pudhinap pErarasu' Govi. Manisekaran got that award,
for his 'socio-historical' novel 'kuRRaalak kuRinji'. I haven't
read that novel, but read at least two of his 200+ works, which
is enough to say he is one of the least qualified authors to get
the award. Few Tamil authors (Jayanthan, Kolagala Srinivas,
Sa.Kandaswamy, Ma. Aranganathan, Prapanchan etc) commented about
that in a recent Subhamangala issue. I will try to post
excerpts from their comments if time permits. Jayanthan's analysis
of the novel is quite hilarious and I wonder if I can effectively
bring that in the translation.
On a related note, he also won Rajarajan award for creative
writing from Tamil University, when MGR was TN CM. He accepted
the award after falling at MGR's feet and in his acceptance
speech, he claimed he would commit 'sati' if MGR dies. I don't
know if his ghost received Sahitya Academy award this year.
>
> - Nagarajan
Shiva Shivakumar
(most portions of a thought provoking article deleted)
>
> necessary, while there are many unattended fields. I don't think
> people from any other language would be spending this much time
> in this kind of things. This 'gloriest past/classical language'
> attitude looks to me more of a burden than help to shape the
> present and future.
>
>
> This academic interest seems to be more with Tamils than others,
> simply to establish Tamil supremacy, which in fact is a burden to
> us in my opinion. This is actually not a genuine interest with many
> people, but a simple tool for self-boasting about Tamil antiquity and
> richness. This, most of the time, prevents original thinking because,
> we tend to quote some ancient works for everything and repeating the
> same thing again and again.
On a related note, the words 'thamizh, thamizhan, thamizhppeNN' etc are
used very frequently in film songs. Hindi and Telugu songs (I do not
have much exposure to other languages) rarely use 'Hindi/Hindustani/Telugu'
in their lyrics.
Any comments, nettors?
anbudan
Jagadisan Shivakumar