To Selvaa - a summary
Raghavan Jayaraman
I thought I would post it here.
At the outset some clarifications:-
[1] Savitri didn't comment on you. She was generally commenting on how one
thrusts humor into his/her writings by adding smileys. My comment was to
point out how indiscriminate usage affects the perception of your
arguments [whether sarcastic, humorous,...]. It wasn't my intention to
cross my limit, to advise you on such matters.
[2] As I understand, you jumped into the debate "makaller mattum",after
being irked by Srikant's usage of term "screwed" and mockery of certain
behavior. Your defence was that such a behavior was culturaly related and
should not mock but try to understand and accept such a behavior, thereby
connotating to me atleast, that such persons are outsiders.[Ofcourse Damu
used insider and outsider for FFT]. IMO, this may be a defence but not
an argument. I think you used the same tactics against Dorai and ofcourse
me too. Just think about it.
----------------
Now some general observations on political front.
The recent trend in your postings is to ask others to be honest in their
reply. Isn't there a possibility that nettors are posting what they
honestly feel to be correct and just? I have been seeing such a mistrust
when it comes to Brahmin - Non-brahmin fight, generaly in this net. The
kinda communication is : if one calls Periyar an idiot, there comes an
immediate response branding Sankarachraya to be stupid - a perfect example
of "match the following" type questions in TN exams.
One has to understand that Brahmins [present generation abound in this net
world and I am not a spokes person for them] react to any posting on
Periyar or DK out of their experience in TN in the hands of DK. [ask
anyone from Trichy or Tanjore particularly]. Similar to your grouse that no
one in this net challenges certain actions in this net, there has not been
any protest from any organisation [whether political or otherwise] publicly
in TN against DK on such matters.TN people by their usual resilience, got
acclimated to such behavior.- which is entirely different matter.
The bottom line is those who are vociferous in this net against DK aren't
for caste system and aren't out there to perpetuate the system. In any
ensuing debate, probing into the past will not lead us anywhere since no
one can be CERTAIN about anything. Even such probing does occur in this
net, donot judge the content of the argument by judging the caste of the
debater from his/her name.
There is nothing new in what I have written just another attempt at a
honest appraisal.
raghavan
dxp...@tesla.njit.edu
> The bottom line is those who are vociferous in this net against DK aren't
> for caste system and aren't out there to perpetuate the system. In any
Do they still wear a thread to distinguish themselves? Isn't that
perpetuating the caste system?
> ensuing debate, probing into the past will not lead us anywhere since no
> one can be CERTAIN about anything. Even such probing does occur in this
> net, donot judge the content of the argument by judging the caste of the
> debater from his/her name.
>
Having separate names to identify their caste is also another attempt to
perpetuate the caste system. How about using a separate dialect? I know that
dialects vary depending on the region. But brahmins whereever they live
seem to use their own dialect. Correct me if I am wrong. I don't think
caste based attitudes have changed much. There is a society called Bharathi
society in New York. From what I heard only brahmins are taken as members.
I may be wrong, but if you have better information let me know.
Prabaharan
>
> raghavan
Raghavan Jayaraman
<dxp...@tesla.njit.edu> wrote:
>Do they still wear a thread to distinguish themselves? Isn't that
>perpetuating the caste system?
Some Chettiars wear similar to poonol. I think in TN some non-brahmin
castes while doing the last rite, that person wears poonol during that
time. In Karnataka, certain sect. of women wear similar threads. What does
it mean to you as a first impression. That sacred thread is not a SYMBOL
of oppression but a cultural / religious aspect. Periyar thought caste
oppression was due to caste division [he clearly ignored class conflicts]
which inturn was thought to be legitimized by religious beliefs such Manu
dharma. So he concentrated on attacking religion. So far so good.
Rajaji once said "manithanin kuttrangalai pAAr. Kuttramulla manidanai
pAArkAdE!!" Periyar and his DK party exactly did the latter. That too he
did see that only in Brahmins [may be he saw them in others but refrained for
political reasons].If some one can prove it to me otherwise, I
will be happy to change my views. But I don't think that Periyar did this
out of selfishness, but in his zeal and wrong judgements. It is my opinion
that he concentrated on Brahmins due to their high visibility in higher
positions and due to their affiliation as a conduit between masses and
religion.
So, for whatever reasons DK started concentrating on Brahmins, it
degenerated into attacking some symbols which brahmins held endearingly
[recall here a recent thread started by Dorai, which ofcourse had very
valid points]. Now cogitate for a moment:- how can one accept DK and its
founder to be rational and neutral, for one with a common sense and normal
observation, can easily see that caste oppression has been practiced by
many others who have been obviously left out by Periyar. Think why??????
One who argues intelligently that "why can't you accept that
humilation since you have done the same to others?", should [1] go to DK
and beg to get those others also to be included in such attacks, if he is
really impartial,[2] should chart out the magnitude of atrocities done by
each community rather than vomitting some sentences he had learnt from
movies and stories, to prove his point scientifically.
To answer Prabhakaran's question, Brahmins don't wear sacred thread
to distinguish them from others, but in their religious belief to perform
certain functions. In those days of rigid caste system, their social and
religious functions were one and the same but not any more. Now they are
struggling, IMO, to strike a balance between social and religious roles,
most of the educated preferring the former role. -That is to give an
overall view.
>
>Having separate names to identify their caste is also another attempt to
>perpetuate the caste system. How about using a separate dialect? I know that
>dialects vary depending on the region. But brahmins whereever they live
>seem to use their own dialect. Correct me if I am wrong. I don't think
>caste based attitudes have changed much. There is a society called Bharathi
>society in New York. From what I heard only brahmins are taken as members.
>I may be wrong, but if you have better information let me know.
>
>
>Prabaharan
>>
Prabaharan! the above points are very minor when compared with the problem
we are trying to address.
The movie "Devar Magan" was a hit even in B and C areas. In case you don't
know the terminology of cine field, this refers to small town and rural
areas. Does that mean [a] Devars are majority in B and C areas or [b]
Kamal Hasan was trying to promote casteism???
Your Srilankan prounciation in very different from TN tamil. Does it say
anything about your attitude towards TN?
I don't know anything about Bharathi society in NY.
raghavan
Thirumalai-Anand
In article <1994Apr24...@tesla.njit.edu>, dxp...@tesla.njit.edu writes:
|> In article <2p61re$r...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, ra...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Raghavan Jayaraman) writes:
|>
|> > The bottom line is those who are vociferous in this net against DK aren't
|> > for caste system and aren't out there to perpetuate the system. In any
|>
|> Do they still wear a thread to distinguish themselves? Isn't that
|> perpetuating the caste system?
Wearing the poonul has got nothing to do with perpetuating the caste
system.That is a question of our relegious belief. Nobody who wears the thread
is going to display it in public. In most cases (rather, in all cases),
the poonul is covered by the shirt or whatever one wears. So what is
your problem here?
|>
|> > ensuing debate, probing into the past will not lead us anywhere since no
|> > one can be CERTAIN about anything. Even such probing does occur in this
|> > net, donot judge the content of the argument by judging the caste of the
|> > debater from his/her name.
|> >
|> Having separate names to identify their caste is also another attempt to
|> perpetuate the caste system.
Who stopped the other communities from having names as badri,
varadhan... ? The names of most of the brahmins are very much the name
of some deity or the other.
How about using a separate dialect? I know that
|> dialects vary depending on the region. But brahmins whereever they live
|> seem to use their own dialect.
You are trying to impose a common culture on everyone. It is like saying
'if u are in U.S, you should have the **same** accent as the U.S.
people'.
Correct me if I am wrong. I don't think
|> caste based attitudes have changed much.
You think that 'uniform culture (tamilwash????)' is the only solution
to get rid of casteism. Why cannot different people in the tamil
society have a different culture? Is there a *unique* tamil culture?
varadhan
There is a society called Bharathi
|> society in New York. From what I heard only brahmins are taken as members.
|> I may be wrong, but if you have better information let me know.
|>
|>
|> Prabaharan
|> >
|> > raghavan
--
Dorai Sitaram
>In article <1994Apr24...@tesla.njit.edu>,
> <dxp...@tesla.njit.edu> wrote:
>>perpetuate the caste system. How about using a separate dialect? I know that
>>dialects vary depending on the region. But brahmins whereever they live
>>seem to use their own dialect. Correct me if I am wrong. I don't think
>
>we are trying to address.
On the contrary, the plea for cultural and linguistic
uniformity is very compelling and deserves a
sympathetic hearing. After they're done eliminating
local dialects and practices in favor of a monolithic
Tamil Way, Tamils may be more easily prevailed upon to
take the next logical step: adopt a more understanding
and accommodating view of the good, humanistic and
inclusive intentions behind the larger endeavor to
totally root out a regional, minority language and
culture like Tamil in favor of a more mainstream one.
--d
A P Nagaraj
>In article <2p61re$r...@news.acns.nwu.edu>, ra...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Raghavan Jayaraman) writes:
>
>> The bottom line is those who are vociferous in this net against DK aren't
>> for caste system and aren't out there to perpetuate the system. In any
>
>Do they still wear a thread to distinguish themselves? Isn't that
>perpetuating the caste system?
do you know most of the tamil community wore threads, in my village
all the oldies wear threads and eat fish, I hope the DK people just
don't cut their threads assuming they are brahmins!
does growing a beard without a mush makes you feel like
cutting them, go ahead, good luck.
is this flame or what? :)
>
>> ensuing debate, probing into the past will not lead us anywhere since no
>> one can be CERTAIN about anything. Even such probing does occur in this
>> net, donot judge the content of the argument by judging the caste of the
>> debater from his/her name.
>>
>Having separate names to identify their caste is also another attempt to
>perpetuate the caste system. How about using a separate dialect? I know that
>dialects vary depending on the region. But brahmins whereever they live
>seem to use their own dialect. Correct me if I am wrong. I don't think
>caste based attitudes have changed much.
It has'nt changed in any society/community, leave alone
brahmin community.
Have you noticed the dialects of Nadars and goundars, first generation
anywhere in the world,
any comments on that!
aaaah , ayyo, a goundan is hitting me.
(excuse me Nadars and Goundars no offence intended)
There is a society called Bharathi
>society in New York. From what I heard only brahmins are taken as members.
>I may be wrong, but if you have better information let me know.
>
hehe any figures there, it is very easy to gain entry
all u need is a thread and the dialect.
come we will make social change by aryo-dravidian, marriage
err sorry, to be politically correct, dravido-aryan marriage,
twinkle twinkle little star
dravidians are the Super star.
(I am in America you see, only English sing I)
Why did I go into Dravidian-Aryan stuff?
Nagaraj.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
\\\\\\
8|@ @|8 An I for an I makes the world egocentric
| V | and thus spake Nagaraj.
C. R. Selvakumar
>
>> The bottom line is those who are vociferous in this net against DK aren't
>> for caste system and aren't out there to perpetuate the system. In any
>
>Do they still wear a thread to distinguish themselves? Isn't that
>perpetuating the caste system?
I don't understand what is wrong if one is wearing threads or
thaayaththus or thaalis. In fact the thread is supposed to signify
so many good things and is a good thing.
I think any distinctive practice is a thing to be welcomed.
What is objectionable is the 'superiority' claimed by
birth and the despicable way others are treated.
I would say cultural differences are good, but cultural
domination ( even majority on the minority ) is objectionable.
>Prabaharan
>> raghavan
anbudan -Selvaa
Srinivasan Raghunathan
>Subject: Re: To Selvaa - a summary
>Date: 24 Apr 94 14:41:48 GMT
>Having separate names to identify their caste is also another attempt to
>perpetuate the caste system. How about using a separate dialect? I know that
>dialects vary depending on the region. But brahmins whereever they live
>seem to use their own dialect. Correct me if I am wrong. I don't think
>caste based attitudes have changed much. There is a society called Bharathi
>society in New York. From what I heard only brahmins are taken as members.
>I may be wrong, but if you have better information let me know.
>Prabaharan
About having names to identify the caste:
I observe that nowadays many brahmins keep the so called "modern" names that
one cannot identify the person as a tamilian let alone brahmin. I also see
the trend of modifying a traditional boy's name and keeping that for a girl.
May be tamilian brahmins are trying to end rather than perpetuate the caste
system.
Dialect:
I believe that the language is probably the foundation of any culture. Even
though tamil culture is a distinct entity, there are several variations of the
tamil culture and these variations are reflected in the dialects. The
Dravida Kazhagams resisted the imposition of Hindi, and I for one fully
supports that position. In the same vein, I also believe that the dialects of
the same language be preserved. Many of us can appreciate that there are
certain things that one can "fully" describe only in cetain languages and
dialects.
A P Nagaraj
>On the contrary, the plea for cultural and linguistic
>uniformity is very compelling and deserves a
>sympathetic hearing. After they're done eliminating
>local dialects and practices in favor of a monolithic
>Tamil Way, Tamils may be more easily prevailed upon to
>take the next logical step: adopt a more understanding
>and accommodating view of the good, humanistic and
>inclusive intentions behind the larger endeavor to
>totally root out a regional, minority language and
>culture like Tamil in favor of a more mainstream one.
>
>--d
"monolithic Tamil way"
I suppose you are going the communist way of
making everybody and everything homogeneous
I don't think it is necessary
to root out a culture (minority language and culture -Tamil according to you)
to go in to a main stream one.
Going into mainstream has nothing to do with
weeding out minority language and cultures,( even by persuasion by dialogue)
All minorities go in to the so called mainstream(here thinking Indian)
when these minorities feel comfortable with the mainstream,
will a mainstream, go the minority way, if it is forced?
The same applies in the reverse direction too.
How can I go and fight India's enemy, if India itself is my
enemy(my implies my culture, my language, my people)
I am happy that India is a comfortable place for Tamils to live
and almost all the minorities to live.
The same applies inside Tamilnadu too,
how can you ask somebody too leave his dialect against his
will, change is permanent only when it comes naturally.
For me the dialect of Brahmins(as potrayed in movies) is the most irritating
one, I don't know how many Brahmins speak with that dialect,
I am sure they don't like my dialect too,
It is not without reasons many great leaders failed in the task of
uniting people.
Ya, it is stupid to say it is important to satisfy everybody
but it is always an individual who has changed the history
of the mankind.
We cannot be perfect, but we can always try to excel.
Nagaraj
C. R. Selvakumar
Srinivasan Raghunathan <sra...@andy.bgsu.edu> wrote:
>In article <1994Apr24...@tesla.njit.edu> dxp...@tesla.njit.edu writes:
>
>Dialect:
>
>I believe that the language is probably the foundation of any culture. Even
>though tamil culture is a distinct entity, there are several variations of the
>tamil culture and these variations are reflected in the dialects. The
>Dravida Kazhagams resisted the imposition of Hindi, and I for one fully
>supports that position. In the same vein, I also believe that the dialects of
>the same language be preserved. Many of us can appreciate that there are
>certain things that one can "fully" describe only in cetain languages and
>dialects.
I entirely agree with the above sentiments. I would think that
Tamil culture would be partly killed/mutilated if brahmin dialect were
to die.
As I noted in a post a year ago, the brahmin tamil is one of the
finest tamil dialects and it should be encouraged just as all
other dialects. What I would oppose is *willful* introductions of
Sanskrit and English words ( naturally some will get integrated
which is fine, whichever langauge it comes from)
replacing tamil words and that too especially in 'common public use'.
The brahmin speech might have
some sanskrit words but they are part and parcel of tamil nadu
culture and should not be in any way discouraged.
Many of the words and phrases used in brahmin dialect are
beautiful tamil and sanskrit coinages.
anbudan -Selvaa
dxp...@tesla.njit.edu
> To answer Prabhakaran's question, Brahmins don't wear sacred thread
> to distinguish them from others, but in their religious belief to perform
> certain functions. In those days of rigid caste system, their social and
> religious functions were one and the same but not any more. Now they are
> struggling, IMO, to strike a balance between social and religious roles,
> most of the educated preferring the former role. -That is to give an
> overall view.
Thanks for your comments. Can you tell me what is so sacred about poonool
and why it is important to brahmins only and not to the other nonbrahmin
Hindus. If you can, please tell me why chettiars wear a thread.
>>
> Your Srilankan prounciation in very different from TN tamil. Does it say
> anything about your attitude towards TN?
Sri lankan pronounciation also differs from region to region. That's why
I said dialects vary from region to region but not from caste to caste.
Some Sri Lankans who lived longer in TN speak with the TN accent. Howmany of
you pronounce some english words with the US accent now?
[To answer Varadhan's comment, yes the children of immigrants speak with the
US accent]
Not only the accent, the brahmins also use different words. As I understand,
some words are considered superior (?). Do you prefer 'saatham' or 'sOru'.
Saapiduthal or thinnuthal? I don't think there is anything wrong in using
a particular dialect. What I wanted to know was whether people attach any
hierachy (or superiority) to this dialect. That's all.
>
Prabaharan
I think some also think lungi is inferior to vEtti.
>
> raghavan
Raghu Seshadri
Raghu Seshadri
- Can you tell me what is so sacred about poonool
I doubt if anyone can answer this question adequately.
Things are sacred if you consider them sacred, and not
otherwise. This totally unsatisfactory answer is the
only honest one. You see, there is no objective quality
called sacredness outside of man's conceptual domain.
The Americans , for example, hold their flag very dear
and consider it very special, but to me it is just a
pattern on a piece of cloth . No one can explain to
my satisfaction why people have actually died for a
piece of cloth. But it is obviously of great importance
to them.
Therefore , you are unlikely to get a good satisfactory
explanation for questions of this nature. If someone feels
the thread is sacred, it is, and if you do not , it is not,
for you. That is all.
-Not only the accent, the brahmins also use different words. As I understand,
-some words are considered superior (?). Do you prefer 'saatham' or 'sOru'.
-Saapiduthal or thinnuthal? I don't think there is anything wrong in using
-a particular dialect. What I wanted to know was whether people attach any
-hierachy (or superiority) to this dialect. That's all.
If some people profess superiority by birth, it is likely
to breed resentment in others. This is obviously to be
deprecated. Nobody in this day and age defends this untenable
idea.
But I wish to make a tangential point, quite outside
the animus-ridden caste wars so popular in sct.
I hope I am not misunderstood when I say that
not all forms of speech can be considered equal, except
by the most committed PC person, who is quite deaf to
the music of good prose. In every major language, certain forms
are considered more elegant, and this has nothing to do with
the "superiority" of the speaker. I know for a fact that in
Bengali, the Western (Indian) dialect is considered more refined
and pleasing than the East Bengali version, even by my Bangladeshi
friends. We are all familiar with the hierarchy in English, with
the Received Pronunciation derived from Oxford and later adopted
by the BBC being considered the most acceptable, and
Cockney of East London being considered quite unrefined.
So it goes, in every language I can think of. I am sure that
the language of Urban Madras will offend every refined
speaker of Tamil, no matter what his native dialect. Therefore,
if someone considers one dialect superior to another, it
is a natural and normal feeling, shared by the great majority
of mankind, and not some aberration he should have to justify.
-Prabaharan
RS
dxp...@tesla.njit.edu
> -ne...@njit.edu
>
> - Can you tell me what is so sacred about poonool
>
> I doubt if anyone can answer this question adequately.
> Things are sacred if you consider them sacred, and not
> otherwise. This totally unsatisfactory answer is the
> only honest one. You see, there is no objective quality
> called sacredness outside of man's conceptual domain.
Can you at least tell me the reason for wearing a poonool.>
>
> for you. That is all.
> But I wish to make a tangential point, quite outside
> the animus-ridden caste wars so popular in sct.
> I hope I am not misunderstood when I say that
> not all forms of speech can be considered equal, except
> by the most committed PC person, who is quite deaf to
> the music of good prose. In every major language, certain forms
> are considered more elegant, and this has nothing to do with
> the "superiority" of the speaker. I know for a fact that in
> Bengali, the Western (Indian) dialect is considered more refined
> and pleasing than the East Bengali version, even by my Bangladeshi
> friends. We are all familiar with the hierarchy in English, with
> the Received Pronunciation derived from Oxford and later adopted
> by the BBC being considered the most acceptable, and
> Cockney of East London being considered quite unrefined.
I am not an exert on linguistic matters. I thought BBC
tries to eliminate slangs and bring about some uniformity (some may
call this fascism) in the dialect. Are the words used in brahmin
dialect are common Tamil words? Can they be found in the dictionary -
like avaal, manni, athimper, etc. If brahmins thought
their dialect is superior I am wondering why they didn't take an
effort to poularize it. May be they did and I am not aware of it.
I am not accusing anybody. So guys hold your fascist/dravidatvas
name calling!!
Prabaharan
> RS
C. R. Selvakumar
>In article <Cp1o9...@cup.hp.com>, sesh...@cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri) writes:
>> I hope I am not misunderstood when I say that
>> not all forms of speech can be considered equal, except
>> by the most committed PC person, who is quite deaf to
>> the music of good prose. In every major language, certain forms
>> are considered more elegant, and this has nothing to do with
>> the "superiority" of the speaker. I know for a fact that in
>> Bengali, the Western (Indian) dialect is considered more refined
>> and pleasing than the East Bengali version, even by my Bangladeshi
>> friends. We are all familiar with the hierarchy in English, with
>> the Received Pronunciation derived from Oxford and later adopted
>> by the BBC being considered the most acceptable, and
>> Cockney of East London being considered quite unrefined.
>
> I am not an exert on linguistic matters. I thought BBC
>tries to eliminate slangs and bring about some uniformity (some may
Yes, there is a 'standard' form of tamil ( not the pronounciation but
written and spoken forms and words. This standard is what one can
see in formal writing and speaking which is by and large understood
by people. ( English spoken forms more nearly conforms to the
standard written form because of other reasons). Raghu Seshadri's
point is not all forms can be considered as equally elegant
( but then who is to decide, what is elegant and with what criteria
and a whole morass of sticky issues).
Like BBC you can say standard TV news or Radio news reader's
tamil, tamil used in most editorials of magazines and newspapers
are kinda 'standard tamil'.
>call this fascism) in the dialect. Are the words used in brahmin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>dialect are common Tamil words? Can they be found in the dictionary -
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>like avaal, manni, athimper, etc. If brahmins thought
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The brahmin dialect is one of the finest, without doubt.
Their pronounciation is also excellent except in 'sh'.
You can find the words in any dictionary ( not owned or
printed by brahmins, if you have any doubts. I don't mean
you'll have doubts, but just to be clear.).
avaaL = avarkaL ( the loss of 'k' is characteritic of some speeches)
manni = thamayan manaivi
aththimpEr orginally meant 'aththai kaNavar' but today it more often
means thamakkaiyin kaNavar ( sister's husband). I would guess
that this is because 'aththai's husband' is by relationship
called 'maaman' and a maaman can marry a sister. It is a pure
tamil word ( aththaiyin pEr = aththaiyin 'aaL' as the original
sense).
agam, aam ( again loss of 'ka') is a fine tamil word.
aaththukku < agaththukku is a fine usage.
A point often not recognized is the brahmin dialect has a large
overlap with certain other communities too ( piLLai, mudaliyaar,
chettiyaar).
chettiyaarvaaL = chettiyaar avargaL ( loss of 'k' )
piLLaivaaL, mudaliyaarvaaL
( but people have not heard paRaiyarvaaL, mooppanaarvaaL
which is not to digress but to point out a usage restriction)
>their dialect is superior I am wondering why they didn't take an
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Superior' is not a way to put it. It is certainly pure,
extremely pleasing, very refined. But so is Madras
kuzhaich chaNdaik kaari's words 'meyyaava, (i)raavukku
vandhuduppaa and many other usages'.
Almost every region of TN has fine, pure tamil words.
Various communities have very fine tamil words all their
own so to say..
>effort to poularize it. May be they did and I am not aware of it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is already popular to some extent. Some more words have to be
pupularized ( for example like 'sEppu' = sivappu. 'sE' means
red in tamil. sEgil, sevalai mean 'reddish cow/bull', sEkkai
means reddish young shoot of a leaf ( also means thazhumbu)
and many other words are there meaning red (sembu, sEmbu etc.).
There are many fine words and expressions used by other
region/communities which need to be popularized ( an example
is the solavadai as used in thirunelvEli which was even used
in the net by Sankarapandi. sol > solavam + adai whose
meaning is a 'popular saying' having a different flavour than
'pazhamozhi' ) [ sol, solavam has connections to
indo-european slokam, slav..]
One thing I would like to see more popularly is a clear
distinction of 'zha, La, la' as practised by some of
the communities which includes brahmins.
>I am not accusing anybody. So guys hold your fascist/dravidatvas
>name calling!!
>Prabaharan
>> RS
anbudan -Selvaa
MF...@utcvm.utc.edu
sesh...@cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri) writes:
>
> Most are, some aren't. The Tengalai Iyengars were quite
> attached to Tamil, btw, and coined Tamil words for several
> Sanskrit ones that are widely used by the whole Tamil
> community. Thus the familiar 'Sambar' is called 'kuzhambu'
> and 'Rasam' is 'Sattamudu', the kitchen is ' Tiru madai palli'
> etc. So, you see, the picture is not as clearcut as you might
> think at first blush.
>
The above mentioned words, "kuzhambu", "saathamudhu"
are used by vadakalai iyengaars also. There are many
more such words used exclusively by iyengaars. Some
months ago a compilation of these words was published in
one of the tamizh magazines, AnanNda vikatan or
kumutham or something like that.
>-If brahmins thought
>-their dialect is superior I am wondering why they didn't take an
>-effort to poularize it. May be they did and I am not aware of it.
>
> Good question. But you show some naivete about
> the way people exhibit exclusivity. The whole point of
> snobbery is to establish a closed club from which
> others are excluded. If everyone has your hoity toity
> accents, how can you feel different and superior ? I
> therefore don't feel surprised that no efforts to popularize
> it were made. This could be one unpleasant reason.
>
Many brahmins I have seen do not use brahmin language
when talking to people who are not brahmins.
I am not convinced that the reason is a feeling
of superiority about brahmin language. As a matter of fact
brahmins are made fun of by others for the way they
talk.
P. Dileepan
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
# Are the words used in brahmin
# dialect are common Tamil words? Can they be found in the dictionary -
# like avaal, manni, athimper, etc.
Let me assume that your query above is genuine and is not with any
kind of `vishamam'. You have to define what a `common thamizh word' is
first. There are two different things here. One is words which are
normally found in thamizh pronounced differently by brahmins.
[in the following, I use the word `non-brahmins' in a very loose
manner to indicate all those who are not brahmins and do not use what
is usually called the brahmin dialect. My apologies if I offend anyone
by my usage]
Examples:
(1)
`akam' is one of the most beautiful words in thamizh to mean 'veedu
(house)'. In brahmin dialect, one usually uses it as
"naan aaththukkup pOREn (I am going to the house)"
This is usually confused with "I am going to a river" and made fun of
by many non-brahmins (in a light-hearted way - no doubt).
This word is very common in thamizh, `piRandhakam', `pukkakam'
etc. were words used in literature. They are used by brahmins even
today as `piRandhaam', `pukkaam' etc. The equivalent usage by
non-brahmins is `piRandha veedu' or `poRandha voodu', `pukundha veedu'
etc.
You can find neither `aam' nor `voodu' in dictionary. You will find
only `akam' or `veedu' in any dictionary.
(2)
`aththimbEr' is a corrupted form of `aththai anbar (aunt's lover)'
Obviously you wouldn't find this word in dictionary because after all
it is a spoken dialect!
(3)
`maiththunan', `maiththuni' meant in the earlier thamizh literature
lovers or husband-wife.
(aaNdaal's thiruppaavai - uN maiththunan pEr paada, also some of the
discussions I had with Sundara Pandian in SCT on this earlier)
These words currently mean different things in a brahmin dialect.
`machchinan', `machchini' etc. are used to refer to the spouse of
one's siblings.
non-brahmins and especially those in the villages, even now use the
word `machchaan' to refer to husband or male lover. Note: on the
other hand the word `machchi' used in madras college circles actually
mean brother of a man's wife or lover. Hence derogatory at times
(figure it out!!) and at times closeness in friendship!
And again you will not see these words in any dictionary!
I can give a detailed meaning of every such word that is being used
and all of them are a specific way of saying words which ARE as
thamizh as `thamizh' itself.
Then the second category of words, which are purely of sanskrit
origin. It is like introducing an english word in a thamizh sentence
even though there may be a thamizh equivalent.
[in a recent interview with kamala hasan, the interviewer asks him:
"neenga indha moovila eppidi act paNNineenga?" whereas he could have
easily asked "neenga indha padaththila eppidi nadichcheenga?"]
a common `vaazhththu' in brahminical houses is "kshEmamaa iruppaa!"
meaning "nanRaaka iru". also greetings like "soukyamaa irukkiyaa?"
etc. Do we have a problem with this? Should we have a problem with
this at all?
If at all anything, I have seen some real beautiful thamizh words being
preserved in its entirety as they are used atleast by brahmins. The
words mentioned by Raghu Seshadri(??) like `madaip paLLi' (read naLa
venbaa) have almost been given up by the mainstream thamizh people. I
am sure, similar to this many other communities will preserve certain
beautiful thamizh words which other communities have stopped using.
[I have forgotten another class of words which are a combination of
beautiful thamizh adjectives with derivatives of sanskrit words like
`thiruvaaraadhanai' = thiru + aaraadhanai]
# If brahmins thought
# their dialect is superior I am wondering why they didn't take an
# effort to poularize it. May be they did and I am not aware of it.
Excuse me! Who ever said that brahmins thought their dialect was
superior and wanted to impose it on others? And why should they have
to popularize it? Only if they start imposing it on others that we
will see problems erupting! And then you can come shouting, "hey stop
all this _____ thiNippu."
# I am not accusing anybody. So guys hold your fascist/dravidatvas
# name calling!!
Prabaharan, I admire you!
--Badri.
# Prabaharan
--
------------------------
S.Badrinarayanan
Dept. of Mech. and Aero.
Cornell University
------------------------
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: >
: > One thing I would like to see more popularly is a clear
: > the communities which includes brahmins.
: 'zha, La, la' is pronounced correctly by most of the Brahmins IMHO. But it is not
: by most of the rest, especially 'zha'. Some times I used to wonder, eventhough 'zha'
: is touted as the most beautiful and unique letter in Tamil, most Tamils cannot say it
: correctly, so it must have been an import to Tamil.
very true. Tamils borrowed thamizh
anban
kathir
: Balu
Raghu Seshadri
Sure. Basically, it is the mark of initiation into
Brahmacharya - the way of life sanctified by study of the
Veda, and practice of the spiritual disciplines
which would lead to liberation and Enlightenment.
Brahmacharya refers to the Way of Brahman. ( Brahman
here is not the caste but the Vedic name for Supreme
Truth.) The thread was the symbol that the boy was now
ready to embark on the Period of Study that marked the
first stage of life.
It is a license, as it were, to study the sacred books,
to perform the Vedic ceremonies and to begin the spiritual
practices. The thread ceremony, therefore, is considered
practically a Second Birth ( dvija ). It is meant to be worn
for life, and its loss had to be atoned for by strict penances.
It marks the beginning of the Sandhya prayers that one is supposed
to perform for the rest of one's life.
You can now perhaps get the significance and measure
of sacredness attached to the thread.
Someone else had asked about the thread for women. This used
to be the practice during the Rig Vedic times, but fell
into disuse as the status of women worsened. The female
Rishi Maitreyi wore the thread.
>We are all familiar with the hierarchy in English, with
>the Received Pronunciation derived from Oxford and later adopted
>by the BBC being considered the most acceptable, and
>Cockney of East London being considered quite unrefined.
-I am not an exert on linguistic matters. I thought BBC
-tries to eliminate slangs and bring about some uniformity (some may
-call this fascism) in the dialect.
When the BBC first began to adopt RP, it was feared by
some that all the varieties of English speech will give
way to a monotonous uniformity, thanks to the influence
of radio. That hasn't happened.
-Are the words used in brahmin
-dialect are common Tamil words?
Most are, some aren't. The Tengalai Iyengars were quite
attached to Tamil, btw, and coined Tamil words for several
Sanskrit ones that are widely used by the whole Tamil
community. Thus the familiar 'Sambar' is called 'kuzhambu'
and 'Rasam' is 'Sattamudu', the kitchen is ' Tiru madai palli'
etc. So, you see, the picture is not as clearcut as you might
think at first blush.
-Can they be found in the dictionary -
-like avaal, manni, athimper, etc.
:-)
I don't have a dictionary, nor do I know the etymology
of these words. So I will field this to Dr Selva.
-If brahmins thought
-their dialect is superior I am wondering why they didn't take an
-effort to poularize it. May be they did and I am not aware of it.
Good question. But you show some naivete about
the way people exhibit exclusivity. The whole point of
snobbery is to establish a closed club from which
others are excluded. If everyone has your hoity toity
accents, how can you feel different and superior ? I
therefore don't feel surprised that no efforts to popularize
it were made. This could be one unpleasant reason.
You also have to reckon with the durablity of the dialects.
See what little impact the tremendous influence of
the BBC over 50 years has had on the various English
dialects. People, in general, like to keep their own,
EVEN if they admired another style of speech different from
theirs. People are inherently conservative.
Another reason is the total lack of the missionary instinct
among the old Brahmins. Conversion of any sort was
voluntary, and no attempts were made to change any group's
behavior. Every group was left alone to pursue its ways.
This can be viewed quite benignly too.
-Prabaharan
RS
Kris Balasubramanian
> One thing I would like to see more popularly is a clear
> distinction of 'zha, La, la' as practised by some of
> the communities which includes brahmins.
'zha, La, la' is pronounced correctly by most of the Brahmins IMHO. But it is not
by most of the rest, especially 'zha'. Some times I used to wonder, eventhough 'zha'
is touted as the most beautiful and unique letter in Tamil, most Tamils cannot say it
correctly, so it must have been an import to Tamil.
Balu
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: tries to eliminate slangs and bring about some uniformity (some may
: call this fascism) in the dialect. Are the words used in brahmin
: dialect are common Tamil words? Can they be found in the dictionary -
: like avaal, manni, athimper, etc. If brahmins thought
These words might sound new for
thamizhs in eezham but as many discussed they are
very thamizh. I can list some words used in kongku
region that will not appear in any dictionary.
People always like it when I use them.
one might encounter these
words in movies. Ex amaithip padai,
sathyaraaj.
ennudaiya->enRa, enbada
magan-->mavan
irukka vENdum-irukkONum.
thollai(trouble)-rOthanai.
paNNukiRai-seykiRaai->paNRe
manaivi->samsaaram
kazhiththu->kirumichchu
kathir aRuthu->karuthaRuthu
kanRu(calf)->kannu
veLLaamai, pOkam etc are formal thamizh words
used by farmers.
one might also notice people putting respect in each
words Ex. How are you? ennungka eppadinganka irukkeereengka.
There are many anglicised words like seekku paduththukittar-
meaning he is sick. plasar caar-pleasure caar. booteesu-A pair of shoes,
boots. poththaan-button. arakaa trowsaru=half-pant.
These words are local and people of all castes use them.
anban
kathir
: their dialect is superior I am wondering why they didn't take an
Prabhu Balaraman
..hear! hear! Please note that *only* 'Anban' Selvaa and 'Anban' Selvaa
only is qualified to draw conclusions about a 'particular community' for
we all know of his exemplary faculties of deduction and above all his
irreproachable honesty and sincerity! Also note that 'Anban' Selvaa
has kindly agreed to share with his definitive conclusions about
1. A 'particular community's proclivity towards clanism..
2. A 'particular community's proclivity to take sides with members of
a 'particular community'..
3. The general audience's lack of understanding of the 'Love' that
'Anbans' have been actively spreading..
4. da..da..daa..
C. R. Selvakumar
Kris Balasubramanian <kri...@sparcle.EBay.Sun.COM> wrote:
>>
>> One thing I would like to see more popularly is a clear
>> distinction of 'zha, La, la' as practised by some of
>> the communities which includes brahmins.
>
> But it is not by most of the rest, especially 'zha'.
Most of the brahmins and uppercaste people and many of the
educated people in all communities pronounce this correctly.
The care brahmins give for pronounciation ( any langauge)
is expemplary.
>Some times I used to wonder, eventhough 'zha'
>is touted as the most beautiful and unique letter in Tamil,
>most Tamils cannot say it correctly, so it must have been
>an import to Tamil.
Your conclusion is rather too hasty but it is true most of the
tamils don't pronounce it well enough. There is a saying
chiththiramum kaip pazhakkam, senthamizhum naap pazhakkam.
One can not come to such conclusions based on these observations.
For a variety of reasons pronounciations can get modified.
Nobody knows when tamil started as langauge with zha as one of its
letters/phonemes. No other neibouring langauge with any antiquity
comparable to tamil has a phoneme comparable to zha ( russian has
zhja which is a bit closer but can't be called comparable to zha).
>Balu
-Selvaa
C. R. Selvakumar
>-Can you at least tell me the reason for wearing a poonool.>
>
> Sure. Basically, it is the mark of initiation into
> Brahmacharya - the way of life sanctified by study of the
> Veda, and practice of the spiritual disciplines
> which would lead to liberation and Enlightenment.
> Brahmacharya refers to the Way of Brahman. ( Brahman
> here is not the caste but the Vedic name for Supreme
> Truth.) The thread was the symbol that the boy was now
> ready to embark on the Period of Study that marked the
> first stage of life.
nool kaRpathai otti noolai maatinaargaL.
nool nooRpathu pOla iRai nOnbu nooRRanar.
>
[..]
>-dialect are common Tamil words?
>
> Most are, some aren't. The Tengalai Iyengars were quite
> attached to Tamil, btw, and coined Tamil words for several
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Sanskrit ones that are widely used by the whole Tamil
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As far as I know this is not true. Read on.
> community. Thus the familiar 'Sambar' is called 'kuzhambu'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If at all Sambaar must be very recent. kuzhambu is used
by 95% of people. Even people who use sambaar use
mOrkkuzhambu, vendhayakkuzhambu, puLikkuzhambu, vaththakkuzhambu
and thus kuzhambu took a more restricted usage. Sambaar
had come to denote a preparation of kuzhambu with more
lentils and this had become more popular only in certain communities
and slowly spreading to others due to the usage in hotels.
> and 'Rasam' is 'Sattamudu', the kitchen is ' Tiru madai palli'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here Rasam could have existed for a very long time and
saattamudu could be a coinage though one can not be sure.
madaip paLLi is a not a new coinage ( the addition of thiru
might be). Several words like 'aduppaangarai, adukkaLai,
are used for samaiyal aRai.
> etc. So, you see, the picture is not as clearcut as you might
> think at first blush.
>
>-Can they be found in the dictionary -
>-like avaal, manni, athimper, etc.
>
> :-)
>
> I don't have a dictionary, nor do I know the etymology
> of these words. So I will field this to Dr Selva.
I've already explained these in another post.
>
[..]
>-Prabaharan
> RS
>
anbudan -Selvaa
Arasu Chellaiah
(Kris Balasubramanian) wrote:
I am not so sure that most Thamizh's cannot say "zha" "La" or "la"
correctly.
These letters are in some of the most common words that both brahmins and
non brahmins use. For example- VazhaiPazham, Kazhuvu, Muzham, Vazhukku,
Kizhakku
Paal, Pal, Kal, Nel, MuL, KaL, PaLLam, ThaLLu etc. This list is endless.
Although in some reagions of Thamizh Nadu some of these words may be
pronounced
incorrectly (both by brahmins and non brahmins), most of the times the
pronounciation by the common populace was not too much off the mark.
-
However, some of the Thamizh word used only in the written form by the non
brahmins are in common usage by brahmins, of course the pronounciation
changed over time.
Ex- vanthundu- vanthukondu
avaa - avarkaL, avar
vaRReLa - vaRukiReeRkaLa
nEKKu - YenaKKu
nOKKu - unaKKu
The word aham was already mentioned in another posting. In Kerala, I was
told
that the Namboodhiri brahmins use the word "illam"( house ) commonly.
anbudan,
arasu chellaiah
Arasu Chellaiah
selv...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (C. R. Selvakumar) wrote:
deleted..
> Nobody knows when tamil started as langauge with zha as one of its
> letters/phonemes. No other neibouring langauge with any antiquity
> comparable to tamil has a phoneme comparable to zha ( russian has
> zhja which is a bit closer but can't be called comparable to zha).
>
> >Balu
> -Selvaa
Dr. Silambole Chellappan, who is a learned scholar in
Thamizh, commented on "zha"(when he was in USA invited
by FeTNA). He said this letter is unique to Thamizh language and
In Cilapathikaram, usage of words for musical instruments like "Kuzhal"
"Yazh" "Muzhavu" suggests musical instruments may have originated first
in Thamizh culture. ThiruKKuRRaL also has those musical instruments
names.
(Kuzhal inithu Yazh inithu enbar thammaKKaL
MazhaLai Chol KeLathavar)
It is little hard for me to believe that sophisticated musical instruments
came into existence first in Thamizh culture. Can any body
mention earlier literature (other than Thamizh) containing names of
any musical instruments ?
anbudan,
arasu chellaiah
Arasu Chellaiah
(Arasu Chellaiah) wrote:
DELETED
>
> However, some of the Thamizh word used only in the written form by the non
> brahmins are in common usage by brahmins, of course the pronounciation
> changed over time.
>
> Ex- vanthundu- vanthukondu
> avaa - avarkaL, avar
> vaRReLa - vaRukiReeRkaLa
> nEKKu - YenaKKu
> nOKKu - unaKKu
When I posted this message I was thinking of "ILLam" and "Aham". I realize
that the above words I cited as examples are also in common usage in
unique
non brahmin dialect.
anbudan,
arasu chellaiah
Raghavan Jayaraman
What a comic relief!!!!
raghavan
C. R. Selvakumar
If you have any points to counter, let me hear and we can discuss.
If you merely post this kinda stuff, I would have to conclude
( you see I'm qualified to conclude as per your declaration)
that you have no stuff and all you can do is type out some
$$$$ words and such wonderful conclusions as above.
If you are angry you can not reason properly. If you can't
reason with people, most reasonable people will not accpet what
you say ( however neatly enumerated ). I suggest, for a change,
read FFT's jokes on how to boil an egg from different people's
perspectives..
anbudan ( kObam uLLa idaththil thaan kuNam irukkum enRa
nambikkaiyil ) - Selvaa
C. R. Selvakumar
Arasu Chellaiah <ar...@pharmdec.wustl.edu> wrote:
>In article <CpAxE...@sun3.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca>,
>selv...@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (C. R. Selvakumar) wrote:
>deleted..
>> Nobody knows when tamil started as langauge with zha as one of its
>> letters/phonemes. No other neibouring langauge with any antiquity
>> comparable to tamil has a phoneme comparable to zha ( russian has
>> zhja which is a bit closer but can't be called comparable to zha).
>>
>> >Balu
>> -Selvaa
>
>Dr. Silambole Chellappan, who is a learned scholar in
>Thamizh, commented on "zha"(when he was in USA invited
>by FeTNA). He said this letter is unique to Thamizh language and
>In Cilapathikaram, usage of words for musical instruments like "Kuzhal"
>"Yazh" "Muzhavu" suggests musical instruments may have originated first
>in Thamizh culture. ThiruKKuRRaL also has those musical instruments
>names.
All cultures more or less had music and dance and they are
always intriguingly interesting and rich. How these got
evolved, we can only guess. I don't think Tamil musical instruments
can be considered 'first' . Greek, Egyptians et al had
instruments. What can be rightly called as unique and 'first'
is probably the _systematic_ development of music with
paNs and a great body of literature on this which other
civilizations seem not to have. The oldest elaborately
systematic music developed in Tamil. Silappathikaaram and
Adiyaarukku nallaar urai contain rich details. Tholkappiyam
and Sangam literature talk certain details which are astonishing.
thEvaaram is 1200 years old with paN, thaaLam. many musical
works are metioned but now lost.
( Flute, Stringed instruments and drum must be found in many many
cultures and it is not correct to claim 'first')
>
>(Kuzhal inithu Yazh inithu enbar thammaKKaL
>MazhaLai Chol KeLathavar)
>
> It is little hard for me to believe that sophisticated musical instruments
>came into existence first in Thamizh culture. Can any body
>mention earlier literature (other than Thamizh) containing names of
>any musical instruments ?
Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Egyptian.
>anbudan,
>arasu chellaiah
anbudan -Selvaa
v2...@delphi.com
a posting by Selva that he has decided to minimize his postings because of
the responses that he got. I am saddened by this. I have disagreed with him.
I have always felt that he brought a certain modesty and dignity to the group.
Chandrasekhar (some quick thoughts)