oru braamaNa thamizhanin Olam: siRu kavithai.
M.Srikanth
oru braamaNath thamizhanin Olam
===============================
adikkaatheergaL!
en thaththaa
iRanthu pOi vittar.
naavithanin savaraththiRku pin
Snaanam seytha avar udambaiyum,
thaazhththappattOrai
theenda maRuththa avar
viralgaLaiyum
appOthE
eriththu vittOm.
mithikkaatheergaL!
en urimaigaLin
sadalangaLaa ungaL
ethirkaalaththukku
eruvaaga vEndum?
thuraththaatheergaL!
katchik kodiyin
kambaththaal adiththu,
perumbaanmai pEsi,
naan puraNdu vaLarntha
thamizh maNNilirunthu ennaith
thuraththaatheergaL.
veRukkaatheergaL!
ungaL
veRuppu visha virutchaththin
vithaigaL, theRiththu
vizhumidam -
engaL veettuth thottil.
- Srikanth.
Raghavan Jayaraman
Would U cut down your histrionics.
raghavan
Gayathri Krishnamurthy
>
> Would U cut down your histrionics.
>
> raghavan
>
Histrionics or not, IMO, there are things like freedom of speech (including
freedom of histrionics, I suppose ;-) ), first amendment etc etc. Let us
at least respect peoples' right to express themselves, so long as they do
so without vulgar or offensive language.
Peace,
Gayathri.
Vasan
> Would U cut down your histrionics.
Every human has his own problems and airing them may probably help
in reducing the mental tension, one has (or had gone through).
Why flame him, unnecessarily?
This would in turn bring in arguments, just to go back harping on
oft-repeated beaten-to-death issues.
Vasan
Raghavan Jayaraman
Pleasssssssssse! Don't start lecturing! That was not an attempt to flame
Srikanth or subdue freedom of speech. It was my comment on his poem.
raghavan
Raghavan Jayaraman
That oneliner by itself was a complete criticism. I was pointing outyour
affected figure of speech [outcry] with bloated words like adi, midi,
kollu, vidathe, thuratthu, which IMO didn't create the special effect of
highlighting the rest of the info. So I asked you to cut down such
artificial "anigalans". Infact the only apt usage was "verukkAdeergal"
which epitomizes the reason the poem was written for, in the first place.
Anyway lemme do some nit-picking..........
In article <64...@ogicse.ogi.edu>, M.Srikanth <ka...@brown.cse.ogi.edu> wrote:
>
> oru braamaNath thamizhanin Olam
> ===============================
>
>adikkaatheergaL!
>en thaththaa
>iRanthu pOi vittar.
>naavithanin savaraththiRku pin
>Snaanam seytha avar udambaiyum,
"seytha" should be "seivitha" since the former represents action by "self"
Also "udambaiyum" should be "udambai" since you haven't added anything else
in the latter stanzas to be burnt along with the body. If you had added
caste feelings prevalent in your community or your family to be burnt along
with the body,[udambaiyum], then it would have added the much needed
emphasis, which you were groping for using other words as mentioned by me
in the opening paragraph.
>thaazhththappattOrai
>theenda maRuththa avar
"avar" should be "avargal" since reference is made to "thaazhththapattOr"
>viralgaLaiyum
>appOthE
>eriththu vittOm.
>
>mithikkaatheergaL!
>en urimaigaLin
>sadalangaLaa ungaL
>ethirkaalaththukku
>eruvaaga vEndum?
>
"sadalangal - eru" doesn't go with the "oru-brahmin's" practice of burning
the dead:-o:-)
>thuraththaatheergaL!
>katchik kodiyin
>kambaththaal adiththu,
it should be katchi kodi kambam or katchi kodi parakkum kambam.
>perumbaanmai pEsi,
>naan puraNdu vaLarntha
>thamizh maNNilirunthu ennaith
>thuraththaatheergaL.
>
>veRukkaatheergaL!
>ungaL
>veRuppu visha virutchaththin
>vithaigaL, theRiththu
>vizhumidam -
>engaL veettuth thottil.
>
I think you mean "thottam" isn't it?
>- Srikanth.
raghavan
ps:- I hope I wouldn't see something like this:-)
kadikAtheergal
ungal kadiyin magimai
ennai SCT pakkamE vara
thadukiradu
Shekar Ramanathan
srikanth.
In article <2i46h8$e...@news.acns.nwu.edu> ra...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Raghavan Jayaraman) writes:
>
>
>In article <64...@ogicse.ogi.edu>, M.Srikanth <ka...@brown.cse.ogi.edu> wrote:
>>
>> oru braamaNath thamizhanin Olam
>> ===============================
>>
>>adikkaatheergaL!
>>en thaththaa
>>iRanthu pOi vittar.
>>naavithanin savaraththiRku pin
>>Snaanam seytha avar udambaiyum,
>
>
>"seytha" should be "seivitha" since the former represents action by "self"
>Also "udambaiyum" should be "udambai" since you haven't added anything else
>in the latter stanzas to be burnt along with the body. If you had added
>caste feelings prevalent in your community or your family to be burnt along
>with the body,[udambaiyum], then it would have added the much needed
>emphasis, which you were groping for using other words as mentioned by me
>in the opening paragraph.
Probably you are write on these counts but I feel I have been successful in
conveying what I needed to convey.
>
>
>>thaazhththappattOrai
>>theenda maRuththa avar
>
>"avar" should be "avargal" since reference is made to "thaazhththapattOr"
The reference is to thaaththaa and not thaazhthappattOr.
>>
>>mithikkaatheergaL!
>>en urimaigaLin
>>sadalangaLaa ungaL
>>ethirkaalaththukku
>>eruvaaga vEndum?
>>
>
>"sadalangal - eru" doesn't go with the "oru-brahmin's" practice of burning
>the dead:-o:-)
Obviously this is not a physical sadalam but a metaphorical one. I think this
is nothing more than nitpicking.
>>veRukkaatheergaL!
>>ungaL
>>veRuppu visha virutchaththin
>>vithaigaL, theRiththu
>>vizhumidam -
>>engaL veettuth thottil.
>>
>I think you mean "thottam" isn't it?
No. I mean thottil. I wonder how many readers understood what I was trying to
say here. I meant to say that hatred leads to a vicious circle of hate-filled
generations. Today's persectors are tomorrwos's persecuted. If I hate you the
seeds of my hatred germinate in your mind. The seeds of today's hatred will
germinate in the minds of the generation of tomorrow.
Thanks for elaborating on your criticism, Raghavan. I really appreciate it.
Srikanth.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chandrashekar Ramanathan email: she...@CS.MsState.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vasan
> That oneliner by itself was a complete criticism. I was pointing outyour
> affected figure of speech [outcry] with bloated words like adi, midi,
> kollu, vidathe, thuratthu, which IMO didn't create the special effect of
> highlighting the rest of the info. So I asked you to cut down such
> artificial "anigalans". Infact the only apt usage was "verukkAdeergal"
> which epitomizes the reason the poem was written for, in the first place.
> Anyway lemme do some nit-picking..........
>>naavithanin savaraththiRku pin
>>Snaanam seytha avar udambaiyum,
>
> "seytha" should be "seivitha" since the former represents action by "self"
I think you got it wrong - that is, the time SriKanth has mentioned here -
when you read with different breaks Raghavan.
It was his thaaththaa who bathed after the shave/hair-cut, not after the
death.
> Also "udambaiyum" should be "udambai" since you haven't added anything else
> in the latter stanzas to be burnt along with the body. If you had added
> caste feelings prevalent in your community or your family to be burnt along
> with the body,[udambaiyum], then it would have added the much needed
See, he is hinting that something else is going to be burnt alongwith -
though in this context, the 'something else' (the fingers) were acutally
part of the said body (of the corpse/thaaththaa)
>>thaazhththappattOrai
>>theenda maRuththa avar
^^^^
> "avar" should be "avargal" since reference is made to "thaazhththapattOr"
>>viralgaLaiyum
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Read it as 'avar viralgaLaiym' - followed in the next sentence - which
would make sense as belonging to the grandpa.
>>sadalangaLaa ungaL
>>ethirkaalaththukku
>>eruvaaga vEndum?
>>
>
> "sadalangal - eru" doesn't go with the "oru-brahmin's" practice of burning
> the dead:-o:-)
Okay.
>>veRukkaatheergaL!
>>ungaL
>>veRuppu visha virutchaththin
>>vithaigaL, theRiththu
>>vizhumidam -
>>engaL veettuth thottil.
>>
>
> I think you mean "thottam" isn't it?
Could you have meant the cradle itself, SriKanth? Like it is passed onto
the future generationS?
> ps:- I hope I wouldn't see something like this:-)
>
> kadikAtheergal
> ungal kadiyin magimai
> ennai SCT pakkamE vara
> thadukiradu
adikAtheergal,
in case, indha followup
thappAgha irundhAl.
Did I really mistake your 'kadi' as a wanton analysis of the Olam, Rags?
Vasan
A P Nagaraj
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
or
aaaaaah AAAAAh uaaaah aaaaaaaah aah(Nayagan style);-)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
and thus spakE
Nagaraj.
v2...@news.delphi.com
However, in the case of your olam, I couldn't help laughing, once I
figured out the joke. It took me back to my Kumudam reading days.
Once there was a popular Malayalam movie called `Avaludaiya Ravugal'. There
was a takeoff on this in Kumudam called `Avaludaiya Bravugal'. The title
itself was the whole joke. (`Ravu' in Malayalam means `morning', I think.
Most people in Madras of course don't know this; they expected the movie to
be a lot wilder than it actually was). The cockamamy story of `Avaludaiya
Bravugal' went something like this:
A wife is saving her old bras so that she can give it to the servant woman.
One day she discovers that her stash of old bras is missing. To find who
has taken it, she places another bra in the same place, only to find her
husband take it; she confronts her husband, who says, `My pin cushion is
not working well. So what I do is get these old bras, cut the cups out, stack
them one over the other. I get a very nice pin cushion this way.'
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
: I generally do not like attempts to make a joke out of serious statements.
: However, in the case of your olam, I couldn't help laughing, once I
: figured out the joke. It took me back to my Kumudam reading days.
: Once there was a popular Malayalam movie called `Avaludaiya Ravugal'. There
: was a takeoff on this in Kumudam called `Avaludaiya Bravugal'. The title
: itself was the whole joke. (`Ravu' in Malayalam means `morning', I think.
: Most people in Madras of course don't know this; they expected the movie to
: be a lot wilder than it actually was). The cockamamy story of `Avaludaiya
: Bravugal' went something like this:
aiyaah! saami puththi mazhuNGkip pOnaalum parava illai.
kONalaap pOguthE. raavu-iravu-night Not morning or afternoon. In colloquial
thamizh 'i' is omitted. If people in Madras understand raavu
it means they do not understand thamizh.
"raavaikku padukka pOkaRathukku munna koNYcham
thiyaanam paNNivittu padu"
ellaam sariyaap pudum-))
: not working well. So what I do is get these old bras, cut the cups out, stack
: them one over the other. I get a very nice pin cushion this way.'
anban
kathir
Satish Subramanian
I got a reply from Mr. Kripa (kr...@cedar.buffalo.edu)
regarding the meaning of 'raavu' and he writes:
--
~From kr...@cedar.buffalo.edu Sat Feb 5 15:48:09 1994
~Subject: Re: Raavu (Re: oru braamaNa.. )
~Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
~X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
=> The original poster was talking about the meaning of 'raavu'
=> in Malayalam and not in Tamil. And I think there is some
=> truth to the meaning he wrote - Ravu might mean 'morning'.
=> Someone who has knowledge of malayalam can confirm this.
i've lived all my life in kErALam.
rAvile == "in the morning"
rAthRi == "night"
rAthRiyil == "in the night"
rAvu == "night"
pAthirA == "midnight"
peace,
--kr.pA
----
bye
satish
Satish Subramanian
>V2...@DELPHI.COM (v2...@news.delphi.com) wrote:
>: itself was the whole joke. (`Ravu' in Malayalam means `morning', I think.
>: Most people in Madras of course don't know this; they expected the movie to
> kONalaap pOguthE. raavu-iravu-night Not morning or afternoon. In colloquial
>thamizh 'i' is omitted. If people in Madras understand raavu
>it means they do not understand thamizh.
The original poster was talking about the meaning of 'raavu'
in Malayalam and not in Tamil. And I think there is some
truth to the meaning he wrote - Ravu might mean 'morning'.
Someone who has knowledge of malayalam can confirm this.
> kathir
--
satish
V2...@delphi.com
I was once living near Quilon for a period of two months and saw a lot of
Malayalam
movies (some in tent theatres). This practical training part of my education
was really valuable :) . In the toothpaste commercials, they always talked
about the benefits of using their toothpaste `raathriyilum ravilum'. I was
surprised by this and asked somebody, who told me that `ravu' means `morning'.
Chandrasekhar
v2...@news.delphi.com
a wild one. I had thought that the commercial used `raavu' for morning;
apparently, it used a somewhat different word `raa'.
Sundara Pandian
[...]
> The original poster was talking about the meaning of 'raavu'
> in Malayalam and not in Tamil. And I think there is some
> truth to the meaning he wrote - Ravu might mean 'morning'.
> Someone who has knowledge of malayalam can confirm this.
The original poster was wrong. The common Malayalam words for
`night' are `raa' or `raatri' (Sanskrit). In colloquial Malayalam,
`raavu' < `raathri' is used for `night'. For instance, the
Malayalam words for `midnight' are `paathi raa' and `ardharaatri'
(Here the words `raa' and `raatri' for `night' are used in a
natural way.)
The common Hindi words for `night' are `raat' and `raatri' and
both these words have a Sanskrit origin. The Tamil words for `night'
are `iravu', `iraa' (derived from the Sanskrit word `raatri').
The pure Tamil meanings of the word `iravu' are `beggary', `mendicity',
`mercy', `kindness' etc. and it should be clear that the meaning
`night' for `iravu' is a borrowing for the Sanskrit word `raatri'.
The Malayalam word for `dawn' is `pulari' and this word has a
dravidian origin. Indeed, `pularthal' is a Tamil verb having
`to dawn, as the day' as one of its many meanings. The other
meanings of `pularthal' are `to fade', `to grow dry', `to faint',
`to decrease', `to clear up' etc. The root sense of `pularthal'
as may be seen from these is `to fade' or `to clear up'. Because
the dawn of the day is the time when the night fades or clears up,
it came to be called as `pular-kaalai' in Tamil and `pulari'
in Malayalam.
The Tamil verb `pularnthathu' is still used in the sense of dawning
like `pozuthu pulanthathu', but the Tamil word for `dawn' in common
usage now is `vidikaalai' or `vidiyaR kaalai' (compare the verbs
`pularthal' and `vidithal'). `pulari' is in common usage in Malayalam
as `dawn'. Vaali uses this word in the lyrics of one Malayalam sounding
Kamal-Janaki song,
"sayana nEram, manmadha yaagam"
"pulari varaiyil nammudE lOgam"
> satish
Namaste,
- SP -
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
Sundara Pandian <s...@cec.wustl.edu> wrote:
>Requests Shri Satish Subramanian <subr...@myria.cs.umn.edu> :
>
> [...]
>
>> The original poster was talking about the meaning of 'raavu'
>> in Malayalam and not in Tamil. And I think there is some
>> truth to the meaning he wrote - Ravu might mean 'morning'.
>> Someone who has knowledge of malayalam can confirm this.
>
> The original poster was wrong. The common Malayalam words for
>`night' are `raa' or `raatri' (Sanskrit). In colloquial Malayalam,
>`raavu' < `raathri' is used for `night'. For instance, the
>Malayalam words for `midnight' are `paathi raa' and `ardharaatri'
>(Here the words `raa' and `raatri' for `night' are used in a
>natural way.)
>
> The common Hindi words for `night' are `raat' and `raatri' and
>both these words have a Sanskrit origin. The Tamil words for `night'
>are `iravu', `iraa' (derived from the Sanskrit word `raatri').
>The pure Tamil meanings of the word `iravu' are `beggary', `mendicity',
>`mercy', `kindness' etc. and it should be clear that the meaning
>`night' for `iravu' is a borrowing for the Sanskrit word `raatri'.
The word 'iraa' in tamil means 'night' and it is not a borrowing
from Sanskrit as SP says. It is Sanskrit which borrowed this word
from Tamil. There is no honest cognate in Indo-European or innate
sense in Sanskrit. It is not uncommon for indians and some
westerners to assume a word to be of Skt origin if it is found in
skt literature ( no other proof is required :-) ).
Let me cite a few words from "A dictionary of selected synonyms
in the principal indo-european languages" by Carl D. Buck ,
University of Chicago Press
Greek: niz Goth: nahts Lithuanian: naktis
Latin: nox Old Norse:nOlt Lett: nakts
Italian:nolte Danish: nat Church Slav:nosti
French: nuit Swedish: natt Polish: noc
Spanish:noche Old Eng: niht Russian: noc
Rumanian:noapte Mid Eng: night Skt: rAtri-, ksap-,
nakt-
Irish: adaig (nocht) Dutch: nacht Avestan: xsap-
Welsh: nos Old German: naht
Breton: noz German: nacht
As you will see that all ( except Irish) the Indo-european
languages including
Sanskrit has a word similar to 'nak, nat, nacht'. In addition
Sanskrit which is very close to the Iranian Avestan language
has a very similar word 'ksap-' similar to Avestan word 'xsap-'.
The word 'rAtri-' is an odd man out ( or odd wonan out ! )
It is clearly a borrowed word; it is borrowed from tamil
'iraa, iraavu' with litle doubt.
In the etymological dictionary ( Kurzfefasstes etymologisches..)
of Manfred Mayrhofer, he says the word rAtri meaning 'night'
is ' nicht hinreichend erklaert' ( = not adequately explained).
It is well known that people have tried to relate this
Sanskrit word with Greek 'Lithu, Lathu' etc. ( Leto, mother of
Appollo and Artemis' originally personification of mother bla bla.)
The word 'iraa' means in the root sense 'without, absent'.
'iraap pozhuthu' means ' a time without the sun' ( often the
meaning of 'pozhuthu' is sun; it can also mean time).
The meaning of begging etc, come about because of the same
root sense of 'without' ( without means, without food..).
The word 'al' for
night also comes from the same root sense of 'without, absent'.
( as already pointed out the occurence of 'al' meaning
night can be observed in the usages 'aalum pagalum' or 'allankaadi'
and the night-flower 'alli'). For anyone who understand tamil,
it should be clear that 'al = iraa = 'without, absent' '.
[ the indo -european words also seem to mean 'without' ( = nicht),
although I'm not sure ]
In summary, Sanskrit word rAtri is a borrowing and it is from
tamil 'iraa, iraavu'. That the word 'rAt' is popular throughout
India is another point to be noted that tamil/dravidianoid
word is pan-indian like so many other words.
>
> Namaste,
> - SP -
>
anbudan
-Selvaa
K. Srinivasan
(C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
> The word 'iraa' in tamil means 'night' and it is not a borrowing
> from Sanskrit as SP says. It is Sanskrit which borrowed this word
> from Tamil. There is no honest cognate in Indo-European or innate
> sense in Sanskrit. It is not uncommon for indians and some
> westerners to assume a word to be of Skt origin if it is found in
> skt literature ( no other proof is required :-) ).
>
> Let me cite a few words from "A dictionary of selected synonyms
> in the principal indo-european languages" by Carl D. Buck ,
> University of Chicago Press
>
> Greek: niz Goth: nahts Lithuanian: naktis
> Latin: nox Old Norse:nOlt Lett: nakts
> Italian:nolte Danish: nat Church Slav:nosti
> French: nuit Swedish: natt Polish: noc
> Spanish:noche Old Eng: niht Russian: noc
> Rumanian:noapte Mid Eng: night Skt: rAtri-, ksap-,
> nakt-
> Irish: adaig (nocht) Dutch: nacht Avestan: xsap-
> Welsh: nos Old German: naht
> Breton: noz German: nacht
>
>
> As you will see that all ( except Irish) the Indo-european
> languages including
> Sanskrit has a word similar to 'nak, nat, nacht'. In addition
"night" in Sanskrit is "nisha", which is more commonly used than 'ksap'
and "raatri".
"raathri" is likely to be of non-indo-european (Dravidian) origin
as you have illustrated and used in Modern Indian languages.
> The word 'iraa' means in the root sense 'without, absent'.
> 'iraap pozhuthu' means ' a time without the sun' ( often the
> meaning of 'pozhuthu' is sun; it can also mean time).
>
> anbudan
> -Selvaa
>
>
anbudan
Srini
IRUTHAYANATHAN, RICHARD A.
I am astonished by the meaning of 'pozhuthu'in selva's article.
B'cos pozhuthu means a period of time, not the sun.
Ipp_pozhuthu , That_pozhuthu , App_pozhuthu : now ,this time ,that time.
Athikalaip_pozhuthu , Anthip_pozhuthu : down , dusk
Nadu_niship_pozhuthu : midnight
the pozhuthu stands for the time ,and some times it stands for an
certain period. But not always for the sun (day time..)
Without knowing which period we are talking about, pozhuthu is a
time period ,not stands for the day time.
The opposition for "iravu"( night) is "pakal" , not pozhuthu.
Not only is pozhuthu wrong in selva's article "iraa' also is wrong.
There is no word in tamil called "iraa".
iraa comes from iravu as
iravu + pozhuthu = iraap_pozhuthu
with the combination other words iravu becomes
iravu + ........... = iraap_......
= irash_.......
= iraak_......
=
=
=
without iravu these words are meaningless. so iraa does have any thing
as "without' ,"absent ", iraa is stands for iravu.
nanri
richard
*******************************************************************************
Richard A Iruthayanathan
ra_...@pavo.concordia.ca
Concordia University
Montreal, PQ
CANADA
*******************************************************************************
Sundara Pandian
[...]
> I am astonished by the meaning of 'pozhuthu' in Selva's article.
> B'cos pozhuthu means a period of time, not the sun.
Selva is not wrong in saying that `pozuthu' means a period
of time and sun, though I don't agree with him that `pozuthu'
often means `sun'. Among the two meanings `time' and `sun',
the meaning `time' is more often used in the formal and common
Tamil in usage now than `sun'..
> Ipp_pozhuthu , That_pozhuthu , App_pozhuthu : now ,this time ,that time.
> Athikalaip_pozhuthu , Anthip_pozhuthu : down , dusk
> Nadu_niship_pozhuthu : midnight
> The pozhuthu stands for the time ,and some times it stands for an
> certain period. But not always for the sun (day time..)
> Without knowing which period we are talking about, pozhuthu is a
> time period ,not stands for the day time.
I don't think Selva meant `day time' by `sun' as you are quoting
him. In the formal and common Tamil, `pozuthu' also has the meaning
`kathiravan' or `sooriyan' (Skt.) like
`pozuthu pularnthathu' = The sun has risen (dawn)
`pozuthu saaynthathu' = The sun has set (dusk)
`pOthu saanja vELai' = dusk, evening
> The opposition for "iravu"( night) is "pakal" , not pozhuthu.
I don't think Selva interpreted `iraap pozuthu' as `not pozuthu'
as you're saying, but rather `kathiravan iraatha pozuthu' (the period
without Sun). [The common Tamil word for `without' is `illaatha'..]
> Not only is pozhuthu wrong in selva's article "iraa' also is wrong.
Selva's interpretation of `iraa' is indeed questionable, but
not for your reasons. Of the two interpretations for `iraa' (by
Selva and Vasu), I like the one by Vasu. `iravu' > `iraa' looks
more plausible like `kanavu' > `kanaa'..
> There is no word in tamil called "iraa".
Probably, you meant to say the word `iraa' is not used in the
sense of `without' in Tamil. Selva has interpreted `iraa' as
`iru' + `aa' = not present. This is indeed a Tamil word, but this
word is rarely used or extinct in Tamil in the sense of `without'..
[`illaa' or `illaatha' are common Tamil words for `absent' ]
> iraa comes from iravu as
> iravu + pozhuthu = iraap_pozhuthu
I agree..
> nanri
> richard
- SP -