are we jealous of brahmins? - followup to Sam's 2
IYE...@ucsvax.ucs.umass.edu
Subject: Re:tAre we jealous of brahmins?
Sam's opinions (most) in the previous thread. His point pertaining to positive
and negative concerning brahmins alone in this article. Please read my
previous thread and Sam's previous thread to get a complete idea of his
opinion.
Sam says:
To the point whether we are joulous of brahmins the answer depends on which
virtue ?. I certainly envy the way their women folk made progress in the
--------------------------------------
society. They were the most oppressed lot probably 50 years ago.
---------------------------------------------------------------
They deserve appreciation.
_____________________________Damu's opinions_________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________
In this context let me share with you the changes that have
taken place since independence (my fathers generation) in the tamil brahmin
community. I look forward to similar opinions from nettors who could educate
me and other nettors as to what is the rate of change in their respective
communities.
As this is a long "report" of my observations I shall follow this up with
negative or unnecessary things that I would like to see, change in my life time
, in the next two threads. Your comments welcome.
All are my humble opinions unless otherwise stated!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The positive changes
____________________
1. As pointed out by Sam, the major change that has taken place is the
education of the brahmin women. They participate in societal activities which
were previously done by men. To be specific, as educators and positive role
models for women in colleges. As medical doctors for women they have more less
displaced the previous "maruththuvar" [a man performing health check on
people]. A significant number of them do public service as well.
2. A large physical change[outward] in outward appearance which was often
times used to convey their unique belief [e.g. tuft or kudumi, no moustache or
facial hair, ear rings, dress pattern and religious symbols such as pattai and
naamam]. This in itself is no big deal. However when challenged about their
"uniqueness" in appearance they were quick to evaluate this aspect and adjusted
rapidly.
3. Large social changes pertaining to the practice of the so called "vedic
religion". An examination of pictures taken during ceremonies and personal
experiences in birth, marriage, death and other such ceremonies will reveal
such changes. For examples see below.
marriage - the girl visiting the guys house before marriage, cinema songs in
marriage parties. Include in this, the disposal of the public announcement of
a girl coming off age.
birth - using modern names for boys and girls while tradition does not allow
anything other than the use of god's name or to be particular the name of the
god of a particular "thiruththalam".
death ceremonies, performing the rites for ancestors. I would say that a good
portion of Brahmins have given up this.
"ammavasya tharpaNam" or offering prayers for dead ancestors every "no moon"
day.
4. Hygenic and social changes such as: 1) a women working all around the house
throughout the year, 2) widows participating in marriage ceremonies, 3) widows
dress code change and participation in almost all social ceremonies. Trying
their hand in the business area. The number of inter-caste marriages have
increased and continue to increase (the change in this department is not major)
5. A genuine belief that the "caste" system is wrong. I have
noticed a genuine change in the mental attitude of the brahmin community,
being an inside observer, during my life time. Even though
the change in this area is not major, there is neverthless continuing change.
I beleive the change in this area is especially slow because of the way the
system works back home (there are limited resoures and limited exploration of
new and bold ideas).
______________________________________________________________________________
Sam Says:
What irritates me among them is when some ass coming with a theory
to support the claim that intelligence is inherited and it is the whole and
sole ancestral property of ours. The whole community then absorbs the impact.
______________________________________________________________________________
________________________________Damu continues_______________________________
Still Negative (IMO) or area's where I would like changes to take place:
-----------------------------------------------
follows in the next two threads.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>The positive changes
>____________________
>1. As pointed out by Sam, the major change that has taken place is the
>education of the brahmin women. They participate in societal activities which
>were previously done by men. To be specific, as educators and positive role
>models for women in colleges. As medical doctors for women they have more less
>displaced the previous "maruththuvar" [a man performing health check on
>people]. A significant number of them do public service as well.
It is correct. A lot of women doctors
in general. Without quoting my community [ a non brahmin community
that did not have reservations during my father's time] I can
say that a lot of women in our community and other communities
in kongku area are getting educated. [we are still
backward in that area] Most of them get into
medical school. Infact there are more girls than boys
in medical school and equal number in engg [remember the
community is more than 20 % of TN's population].
In other communities, lack of education is
a problem.
In some areas they still defend old customs [esp.
religious inst.s] Like we have advanced ahead of them
in worship practices. mEl maruvaththoor has 1 crore
devotees but still a good magazine like HINDU
would talk about a jeeyar visiting a mutt where
1000 people gathered.
anban
kathir
M. Sundaramoorthy
> In some areas they still defend old customs [esp.
>religious inst.s] Like we have advanced ahead of them
>in worship practices. mEl maruvaththoor has 1 crore
>devotees but still a good magazine like HINDU
>would talk about a jeeyar visiting a mutt where
>1000 people gathered.
>
I see double standards in your postings in every aspects - language,
religion, castes and so on. I will stop pointing out only one for
example and leave the others to yourself to ponder over.
You always boast about rationalism, Periyar's contributions to
remove irrational practices etc. What makes you think that one crore
( if the figures are correct, we have nothing to be proud about
that), Tamils going after a self styled Godman, Bangaru is an
advanced form of worship?. Time and again you quote one or the other
Sithar to claim God is in yourself, but now claim one crore Tamils
going after this man is an advanced worship practice and at the
same time denounce Brahmins going after their religious leaders.
If you don't know, Periyar denounced the very concept of God and
the related religious practices. I don't think he divided Gods and
Godesses into Aryan and Dravidian groups, and denounced the former
and blindly praised the later. If he criticised the so called
Aryan Gods more vehemently than the so called Dravidian Gods, the
reason might be he was sorrounded by the Tamil zeolots, which was
the greatest blunder he committed in my opinion. A true Periyar
follower would expand his ideology, which himself failed to do for
one or the other reason, to the other Gods, relgions and castes
as well and criticise them, NOT BLINDLY PRAISE the so called Dravidian
religion and Gods. If one does that in the name of Periyar, he is a
sheer Tamil fanatic/Dravidian racist and nothing to do with his
ideology.
My humble request to you is read his writings more carefully,
argue rationally, if you want to be rationalist yourself.
Or, write great about the so called Dravidian Gods, religions,
languages, Kongu castes etc. and denounce everything related to
Brahmin, Sanskrit, Aryan etc. Please don't do both - they don't
go along with each other. It only reflects the fanatical attitude
that is very common among the so called Periyar followers.
When others bring in the discussion on Periyar, please don't spoil
the discussion with the double standard postings and random quotes
from Dravidian religious texts and confuse others. It would do more
damage to the name of Periyar, misunderstanding of his views and more
importantly it will totally undo what the other people do to remove
those misunderstandings. I wonder if your posts on Periyar would
have ever done any good to himself and his views. I would not hesitate
to say your double standard posts coupled with your praises of
Periyar would have done more damage to him.
I end with a change in the perspective of Bharathidasan, whom you
often claim as a great poet, about God. When he was a believer,
he wrote:
illai enbOn yaaradaa?
thillai senRu paaradaa.
When he turned atheist, he denounced himself;
illai enbOn naanadaa
aththillai senRu thaanada.
If his Tamil nationalism and admiration to Periyar arose out of sheer
fanaticsm like many "followers" of Periyar, he would have blindly
praised the residing Dravidian God of Thillai, the saints who sang
on him, but criticised the priests of that temple.
Don't take this personal. Try to get the point.
>
> anban
> kathir
>
M. Sundaramoorthy
sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
Badrinarayanan Seshadri
[much intro. deleted]
Damu gives his opinion on the positive changes that has happened
in the Brahmin society. I see that much change has happened but
whether they or positive or neutral (of no consequence) only time
can tell. I do not fully agree with Damu.
>The positive changes
>____________________
>1. As pointed out by Sam, the major change that has taken place is the
>education of the brahmin women. They participate in societal activities which
>were previously done by men. To be specific, as educators and positive role
>models for women in colleges. As medical doctors for women they have more less
>displaced the previous "maruththuvar" [a man performing health check on
>people]. A significant number of them do public service as well.
I am not being cynical. But IMO increase in education among women
is more due to the demands of the marriage market. True, many
parents started encouraging their girls to go to school. But
they had to do it because a girl with a good education and a
decent job gets 'sold' out quickly (and with less dowry too) in the
marriage market. In many cases girl's career plans are completely
thrown away because the parents find it difficult to get a bridegroom
who has a better qualification than the bride. Only if the
children break out of the parental intrusion that their
education is going to be useful to them.
>2. A large physical change[outward] in outward appearance which was often
>times used to convey their unique belief [e.g. tuft or kudumi, no moustache or
>facial hair, ear rings, dress pattern and religious symbols such as pattai and
>naamam]. This in itself is no big deal. However when challenged about their
>"uniqueness" in appearance they were quick to evaluate this aspect and adjusted
>rapidly.
The physical change is because the young people are ashamed
of having a tuft and kadukkan. With the advent of cinema, they
wanted to have a hair style like RajiniKanth and Kamal. Also
they were teased by their fellow "nonbrahmins". In fact the so
called religious symbols are common for all irrespective of the
caste. I know of so many chettiyaars with beautiful "n^aamam"
adorning their n^eRRi. Majority of brahmins continued to follow
wearing these symbols because they assumed that that is how a devoted
person should live. The moment people's belief in God started
diminishing, they stopped painting their forehead. The same thing
can be said of the sacred thread. I don't see any reason why
this should be considered a positive change for Brahmins in
particular.
>3. Large social changes pertaining to the practice of the so called "vedic
>religion". An examination of pictures taken during ceremonies and personal
>experiences in birth, marriage, death and other such ceremonies will reveal
>such changes. For examples see below.
>marriage - the girl visiting the guys house before marriage, cinema songs in
>marriage parties. Include in this, the disposal of the public announcement of
>a girl coming off age.
>birth - using modern names for boys and girls while tradition does not allow
>anything other than the use of god's name or to be particular the name of the
>god of a particular "thiruththalam".
>death ceremonies, performing the rites for ancestors. I would say that a good
>portion of Brahmins have given up this.
>"ammavasya tharpaNam" or offering prayers for dead ancestors every "no moon"
>day.
I don't see any reason why these things should be considered
positive changes. These things just happen. They are of no
consequence actually. I would rather name my son as Damodharan
instead of stalin :-). Also I can say that more than 90% of
marriages in the recent times have become more of a social
function than a ritual. I don't see again why you consider this
a positive change. I would consider it a positive change, if we
do away completely with all these stupid ceremonies.
>5. A genuine belief that the "caste" system is wrong. I have
>noticed a genuine change in the mental attitude of the brahmin community,
>being an inside observer, during my life time. Even though
>the change in this area is not major, there is neverthless continuing change.
>I beleive the change in this area is especially slow because of the way the
>system works back home (there are limited resoures and limited exploration of
>new and bold ideas).
I think this is one positive change. The idea that I come
from Brahma's mouth and you from some other place and only
I can do this and you shouldn't has changed. Still some
old people will be claiming that we are going towards the
end of kaliyugam but I see that this is the only significant
change which is positive. I can have kudumi, wear thirumaN,
wear panchakachcham instead of pants but I shouldn't oppress
or deny things to other communities.
--Badri.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
> When others bring in the discussion on Periyar, please don't spoil
> the discussion with the double standard postings and random quotes
> from Dravidian religious texts and confuse others. It would do more
> damage to the name of Periyar, misunderstanding of his views and more
> importantly it will totally undo what the other people do to remove
> those misunderstandings. I wonder if your posts on Periyar would
> have ever done any good to himself and his views. I would not hesitate
I did not originally post on periyaar. I have not read
about him as some others did. I do not quote
religious texts to forward periyaar or defend him.
In reply to Dan I explained as a Hindu
why I see periyaar attack Brahmanism as a school
of Hindu thought.
> to say your double standard posts coupled with your praises of
> Periyar would have done more damage to him.
My quoting of mEl maruvaththoor was just an
instance where as far as I know caste [women] is not the bar
in front of gOd to perform the poosai. [I myself
came to know this thro' friends] Women are not allowed
in the conventional Hindu system.
I also do not know whether Bangaru has
written any book defending castes.
If there are blind followers [i am not one] then
I will not hesitate to condemn them. I consider
prayer by everybody [accomodating women] as an advancement.
I am not an atheist and need not be
to defend periyaar for whatever good he has done.
I also do not say any thing about periyaar's belief
in gOd. I defended him [when dan wrote] why he
attacked Hindu practices.
Finally I do not subscribe to atheism.
I did not say he was a theist. I defended
that he did not put chappals in temples of
any presiding deities. He was selfless
and hence noble. Please refer to my reply to Dan.
I do not know why you mix my posts and think
that one should be an athiest to defend the
good of periyaar. Maybe some DK idiots can
can go and tell saani for santhanam etc.
I respect my religion and I belive that there
is a lot of simple and humble feelings about
being second to just god.
You quoting that I say "BD as a great poet"
is just out of the air. I have not quoted
a single verse of bharathidasan other than
thamizhukkum amuthenRu pEr.
What I see is that your extrapolate
to make points.
I do not see contradiction in
1) defending periyaar or whoever for
their contribution in working
towards self-respect and equality.
2) Being a theist
As I have been since
the very beginning in my life..
> Don't take this personal. Try to get the point.
>>
>> anban
>> kathir
>>
No it is not personal. I just defended
why periyaar opposed Hindu religious establishment.
I do believe in gOd and see a lot of screw ups
in religious beliefs. Like the connection drawn
between raaman and maayOn and creating hatred
by saying "X is bad, Y is better as X is praised
by his people for being virtuous."
> M. Sundaramoorthy
> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
I am not fanatic about my religion.
I quoted John and said "How Christians worship in
thamizh." I go to church ocassionally.
anban
kathir
S. Sankarapandi
In article <kat.743200496@tomalak> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurth
i) writes:
>In <2C4C4BE...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sunda
ramoorthy) writes:
>
>> When others bring in the discussion on Periyar, please don't spoil
>> the discussion with the double standard postings and random quotes
>> from Dravidian religious texts and confuse others. It would do more
>> damage to the name of Periyar, misunderstanding of his views and more
>> importantly it will totally undo what the other people do to remove
>> those misunderstandings. I wonder if your posts on Periyar would
>> have ever done any good to himself and his views. I would not hesitate
>
> about him as some others did. I do not quote
> religious texts to forward periyaar or defend him.
>
> In reply to Dan I explained as a Hindu
> why I see periyaar attack Brahmanism as a school
> of Hindu thought.
I normally dont read all your postings after I tried to convince you many
times in vain. Now, I have to agree with Sundaramoorthy because you
certainly show double standards in your postings (including this one).
I will ask you a few questions which you first try to answer.
1. You say that you are a strong believer of God and Tamil Hinduism. In that
case, what is your opinion about Periyar's athiest principles. Dont say that
your defend Periyar because he opposed the caste-ridden Hindu philosophy etc.
Periyar did not get into temple and attack statues. But, he did ridicule all
Hindu Gods including your Murugan (whom you time and again praise in this net
with Kanthar sashti Kavacam etc) for an example. He ridiculed believers like
you for believing in God. You can say the saying of Periyar such as
"kadavuLaik kaRpithavan kaattu miraNdi, parappiyavan ayOkkiyan, vaNanguvan
muttaaL" etc. What is your opinion on this ? Why these things never strike
you and I would expect you to blast Periyar to openly insult believers like
this.
2. You all the time criticize only the Sanskrit religious books or songs.
Your sensiblities start functioning only when some body talks high about them
(which I appreciate). But you chose to ignore any discussions about
male-chavunism in Tirukkural or Cilappathikaaram or atleast in Tamil movies or
songs. I have not seen a single article from you either opposing or
supporting. I dont think that it is because of not having time or knowledge.
It is simply because of the fact you dont want to open the Tamil-black box in
public so that tamil books would lose credibility.
3. Regarding `paarppaar': I think this word has become derogatory because of
the DK-DMK public meetings, it is equivalent to calling others as `Shudras' or
the Afro-Americans as Negros. Dont justify that this is a Tamil word and it is
found in Tamil poems etc. The same Bharathi (whom you quote here) has also
mentioned about Shudras in the poems. Do you think that non-Brahmins should
be called as `sUththirar'.
4. Bangaru adikaLaar: Just because he has more followers or because women are
allowed to perform poojas (I doubt this however !), he or Tamil worshipping
will not become great. Tami worshipping has gladly accepted almost all the
practices of brahminism. One should also notice about the personal motives of
Bangaru AdikaL in running such a temple and mElaas.
5. Very often, you come with an idea that canadian temples should have
Othuvaar so that Tamil archanai could be conducted. I can understand your
enthusiasm in hearing Tamil archanais (however, personally I disagree with
temple or religion or priesthood etc but you can ignore this for the time
being). I want to know whether your Othuvaar can be free of the caste
feelings. From my experience (my father's family profession was `Othuvaar',
though my father did not do it. My cousins are still doing poojas in some
local Amman temples of Tuticorin, Arumuga Neri etc in nellai dt and I have also
done poojas along with them when I used to go to their places for school
vacations), they are no different from the Brahmin priests except that they
dont know Sanskrit. Even then, my uncle and cousins would say that Sanskrit is
great for archanai etc due to their faith in Brahminism.
6. How about you going to venkateswara temples etc though you have been quite
critical about ignoring tamil worshipping etc.
I can point out even more inconsistencies, double standards from your postings.
Interestingly you have never commented about the parts in my articles which you
would not agree with. But you chose to appreciate only the parts in my
articles which you like. I want your opinions about my other comments about
God, religion, Periyar etc..
I have not yet gone into my harsh criticisms of DK-DMK regarding language,
caste etc. I have already confronted you many times regarding these things but
not gotten any reasonable answers.
Let me stop here to get answers from you.
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>In article <kat.743200496@tomalak> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurth
>i) writes:
>>In <2C4C4BE...@news.service.uci.edu> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sunda
>ramoorthy) writes:
>>
>>
>> In reply to Dan I explained as a Hindu
>> why I see periyaar attack Brahmanism as a school
>> of Hindu thought.
> I normally dont read all your postings after I tried to convince you many
>times in vain. Now, I have to agree with Sundaramoorthy because you
>certainly show double standards in your postings (including this one).
sangkar:
You read about periyaar. You quote his speeches.
I was not aware of periyaar's contribution
directly or thro' books.
My uncle used to tell me only one thing.
[ Please also note that I am not
a voracious reader. I do not read
books other than texts, some poems.
I have admitted that I have not read
a novel].
He worked for us. He wanted everybody to
live with self respect. He said "we are second
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to nobody". That struck me.
> I will ask you a few questions which you first try to answer.
>1. You say that you are a strong believer of God and Tamil Hinduism. In that
>case, what is your opinion about Periyar's athiest principles. Dont say that
I have heard only
brahmins accuse him as athiest. I do see that
from your article that he openly was an athiest.
If he found that
that is the way he chose to break a system that
was sick because of some people misusing it that
was his way . I never defended him on being a
theist. I did not know if he was. I did not defend..
What convinced me was his self respect
rhyming "naam yaarkkum kudiyallOm".
>your defend Periyar because he opposed the caste-ridden Hindu philosophy etc.
>Periyar did not get into temple and attack statues. But, he did ridicule all
>Hindu Gods including your Murugan (whom you time and again praise in this net
>with Kanthar sashti Kavacam etc) for an example. He ridiculed believers like
>you for believing in God. You can say the saying of Periyar such as
>"kadavuLaik kaRpithavan kaattu miraNdi, parappiyavan ayOkkiyan, vaNanguvan
>muttaaL" etc. What is your opinion on this ? Why these things never strike
>you and I would expect you to blast Periyar to openly insult believers like
>this.
Yes. My understanding of periyaar.
I believe in my uncle when he said "he worked for
us"
[ My father's background is really poor. He was
termed FC. He was one of the few who still wore
a dhothi in azhagappa when he graduated].
My uncle is a sincere person. He had zero education.
But he would not lie. When I brought him the topic
of gOd he said periyaar always wanted to people
to realize their gOd and not believe in somebody
to show gOd. He was a dovout person. kaavadi
was a ritual he was always doing.
He infact told me "periyaar sonnaar nee un kadavuLaip
paar. paapaan sollung kadavuLai nambaathE.
athai thirichchu evan vENaalum avar mEl
pazhi pOdalaam." He never told told me
this until I grew up. I was not very convinced
but still believe that periyaar was not like
some of the DK guys who say santhanam=shit.
He did not want to trivialize to santhanam and
shit for sure.
Also in my native place, we have our own temple.
[kula theivam]. We do our own poosai. We were
our own slaves or master's. I have seen some
lower caste people work for us when we did
not even have electricity [in the earliest 70's].
But most of them left for thiruppoor and kangeyam
town in search of better jobs.
[ All the farm work was done by my uncle,
aunt and my cousins. My dad and I would pitch in
if we go there
My aunt would not treat them any different other
than giving them food not containing yoghurt.
We were mostly vegetarians. I asked her why?
The only reason she ever told me was "they eat beef"
Also I noticed they spoke telugu. I did not find
out where they came from. I did observe racism
in the colloquial speech like "ottang kaNdaana
latturaNdaiya".
I have heard this from many people
I did not listen to this remark of
periyaar.
>2. You all the time criticize only the Sanskrit religious books or songs.
>Your sensiblities start functioning only when some body talks high about them
>(which I appreciate). But you chose to ignore any discussions about
>male-chavunism in Tirukkural or Cilappathikaaram or atleast in Tamil movies or
Yes. I did not discuss. I did talk once
on silambu to be shut up. About movie songs
I have myself posted mostly thaalaattoos.
When somebody posted "anthi mazhai pozhihiRathu
, ,,,,, " I remeber I did make comments on
viraha thaapam of some lines. Yes "thEham
yaavum theeyin thaaham".
Even in our sangkam when students want to sing
film songs I always advice them to sings good
songs. I do not have an attitude like all songs
are bad. Well I might not like. I know some like
it.
On the side I never saw a movie until about "15
years". My parents were strict about that.
People were talkin about eve teasing in the
net. I am very sorry to say that I haven't seen
that in my life, in kaangEyam [mostly with grandparents]
kOvai [with parents and GRG school, aargas]
thiruchchi [RSK and later BPHSS (RK MISSION)]
and REC (home and library and a few good friends).
>songs. I have not seen a single article from you either opposing or
>supporting. I dont think that it is because of not having time or knowledge.
>It is simply because of the fact you dont want to open the Tamil-black box in
>public so that tamil books would lose credibility.
I do not care if somebody finds fault.
As far I know silambu is a real story with
some mihai like burning of madurai. There
is no question on that.
I respect kaNNagi for what she stood
for. Not bcse she was slave of husband. She was
a courageous woman who sought justice.
I like the poetry of silambu although`
I havent read in full. I like the kaanal
vari oodal. oodal is a subtle feeling
in luv that is not dealt in detail
in many stories including KR.
silambu is also simple and beautiful.
The vasanams are crisp and it is the
first drama- written in any Indian
language. [on paper ]. I am proud
about that. I do not claim that
Madurai was burnt in her wrath.
>3. Regarding `paarppaar': I think this word has become derogatory because of
>the DK-DMK public meetings, it is equivalent to calling others as `Shudras' or
>the Afro-Americans as Negros. Dont justify that this is a Tamil word and it is
>found in Tamil poems etc. The same Bharathi (whom you quote here) has also
>mentioned about Shudras in the poems. Do you think that non-Brahmins should
>be called as `sUththirar'.
My friend raajah in ottawa and myself
make fun of each other by telling caste names. We did
not take it into heart. Infact my caste is not one
of those vaaL types we always
>4. Bangaru adikaLaar: Just because he has more followers or because women are
>allowed to perform poojas (I doubt this however !), he or Tamil worshipping
>will not become great. Tami worshipping has gladly accepted almost all the
>practices of brahminism. One should also notice about the personal motives of
>Bangaru AdikaL in running such a temple and mElaas.
I did not mention Bangaru . I did mention the reform. I have not
seen, been to that place. SOme friends always used to say
about mEl maruvaththoor and only VRK [sidney] told me
that bangaru is a crook but did not say why.
>5. Very often, you come with an idea that canadian temples should have
>Othuvaar so that Tamil archanai could be conducted. I can understand your
>enthusiasm in hearing Tamil archanais (however, personally I disagree with
>temple or religion or priesthood etc but you can ignore this for the time
>being). I want to know whether your Othuvaar can be free of the caste
>feelings. From my experience (my father's family profession was `Othuvaar',
>though my father did not do it. My cousins are still doing poojas in some
>local Amman temples of Tuticorin, Arumuga Neri etc in nellai dt and I have also
>done poojas along with them when I used to go to their places for school
>vacations), they are no different from the Brahmin priests except that they
>dont know Sanskrit. Even then, my uncle and cousins would say that Sanskrit is
>great for archanai etc due to their faith in Brahminism.
I sincerely feel that there is a lot of truth in our
thamizh paththi texts. They do not talk about castes.
I feel some things that I cannot say. I do not know
that Othuvars show off or not.
If you read my article opposing swami sithpavaanandaa
[who is not a brahmin-comes from my community] devious
way of saying sanskrit will solve the language crisis.
I read that book on vaasaham urai. Some of his
reasons why sanskrit should be the national
language were vague. Please do not say
that I do not read your articles. I did
write about that. atlanta sree knows that.
My only wish is that I want to see
thamizh people feeling proud of their
language not considering it is second
to any god language and brahmanism not
screw up by slowly introducing rituals
changing names, giving names like
darshika [which parents did not know].
If they did themselves I respect
them. They could convert, change etc.
But somebody coming and making them feel
inferior I do not like.
>6. How about you going to venkateswara temples etc though you have been quite
>critical about ignoring tamil worshipping etc.
My philosophy is " well my knee is hurt. I cannot
cut it off". That is why I invited all brahmins
to join people like me in instituting
thamizh worship.
Please see below in my reply to kalyam subra
: My reply
>
> There are more than 100' s of these pudungkals.
>.. They
>sell ganga water for $ z.
> In short Brahmanisn is more poisonous than
>snake. It needs a lot of effort on the
>part of everybody, including Brahmins to
>kill it.
> We are plagued by corrupt practices.
>I do not want to still convert. Want
>to fight within the sytem. see that
>thamizh is brought into forefront
>in our own temples and our religion
>I can point out even more inconsistencies, double standards from your postings.
yaarai yaarumE kuRai kaNdu koNdE pOhalaam.
naan manathil uLLathai ezhuthupavan. enakku
therintha aLavu ezhathuvEn. thavaRu irunthaal
uNmaiyaana muRaiyil suttikkaattalaam.
naan sollaathathai sonnaal athu muRai alla.
[ivan favourite ivan. nee oru DK.
ivan oru DMK just becasue I opposed
dismissal of MK's govt unlawfully]
>Interestingly you have never commented about the parts in my articles which you
>would not agree with. But you chose to appreciate only the parts in my
>articles which you like. I want your opinions about my other comments about
>God, religion, Periyar etc..
I have written what I knew of periyaar.
He just stood for self respect as far as I
am concerned. Respect your kind
as well as yourself. Your are second to
none. Our people just lack that.
I never defended that he is THEIST.
I have no books on periyaar to
write about. I learnt from meenan's
thesis article about periyaar more than
heresay..
People who rule just think they
are superior.
>I have not yet gone into my harsh criticisms of DK-DMK regarding language,
>caste etc. I have already confronted you many times regarding these things but
>not gotten any reasonable answers.
Language. They screwed up thamizh. Burnt all
texts. I do not know.
In fact you told me about their self patronage
and not letting thamizh grow. Well Jeya will do
better. Leave me.
You confront me on that and if I do not answer
please for godsake know that I just do not know.
What I know is that there was some thamizh
revival. There could be negative points.
Even raajaaji commended them in his
later days.
As long as thamizhs can rule
themselves and not get killed by other
races I am happy. Politicians are cheap.
I do agree. I do not have any respect
for veeramaNi or his DK.
I do not belive in language purism.
But again I will employ self - respect
and mutual good. If they learn
a SI language we will learn Hindi.
Then both the parties will be benefitted
and real nationalism is born.
I know a few words of Hindi.
I just helped a sardar in the immigration
counter in Ottawa . He did not know
a single word in english. After all
everybody is human. Their language,
punjabi is also one of the national
languages and I respect them as people
who have identity and a lot of
self -respect.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well sangkar you can find faults.
right,left and center. I am no
gOd or saint. simple man just
aspiring thamizh self respect
and looking for thamizh worship
in thamizh temples before death.
nd not scared by rituals of milk pouring,
demanding ritualistic brahmanism. I for one
would go an extra length if any body is willing
to respect my language and not put some artificial
language and practice karavu.
I believe it is sin to use sanskrit
in thamizh crowd or vice versa.
anban
kathir..
I might not be able to answer you
due to lack of time. Shall try.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>In article <kat.743200496@tomalak> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurth
>i) writes:
>3. Regarding `paarppaar': I think this word has become derogatory because of
>the DK-DMK public meetings, it is equivalent to calling others as `Shudras' or
>the Afro-Americans as Negros. Dont justify that this is a Tamil word and it is
>found in Tamil poems etc. The same Bharathi (whom you quote here) has also
>mentioned about Shudras in the poems. Do you think that non-Brahmins should
>be called as `sUththirar'.
I did not write on this point much about how I feel
about.
I had a long duel with a laavanya mOhan
from Finland and Raj joined as well.
I was referring paarpaar as a caste. They
said they did not know that it was a
correct word. Yes. Caste based word.
Brahmin thamizhized a piraamaNar-after
I read thirumoolar I seldom use it.
He wants, rather demands piraamaNar to
have a lot of qualities. Since it
is a qulity based as an anthaNar I
sometimes do not use it as there could`
be only a few true piraamaNar or anthaNar
amoung paarpaars.
I personlly have not attended
a single DK-DMK meeting.
And your assumption that it
is derogatory sounds new to me.
In our speech anything said
with ... an has less respect.
When you say aar it implies
no derogatory.
I have used it
umpteen number of times and I find
it weird rather now that you raise
concerns as somebody objected.
Why was the title of your sudalai mode
posts paarpaanum -veLLalanum. If
you so worried about that you
could have changed that a bit.
I am one who does not keep
something in heart and write bad
thing. When I call some people who
follow something " stupid" why would
I worry. It it is right it is right.
If it is wrong it is wrong.
Icing and smoothing for finer effects
is not my character
ps. meena calls me always jokingly
with my caste name-- paya. She is
elder to me. I do not call her
paapaaththi. because I respect
her for her age and her good
and frank character.
anban
kathir
>S. Sankarapandi
>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Krishna Sivaramapuram
Hey kathir,
I have followed most of your articles. But this particular article in
which you answered sankarapandi's questions really impressed me.
You were quite straight forward in accepting that you haven't read much
to talk about these sensitive issues. But you should accept one thing.
Tamizhs do not consider other languages better than their own language
tamizh. And in that way you blaming tamilnadu brahmins is
unreasonable. If you don't know let me tell you this. I have
heard many brahmins when they come out of the state, since they
can't get admission to study advanced courses, state that they do
not want to leave their state but couldn't continue there due to
the procedure used to give admissions. I'm a brahmin and I for one
would have never liked to leave TN.
And your concept of brahmins praising sanskrit is wrong. Not many
brahmins speak sanskrit. Everyone in TN speaks only tamil. If they
use sanskrit for some poojas and all what is the problem. Everyone
has some privacy. Some ancestors of the brahmin community migh have
used sanskrit for their power. But not now. People do not really
care about many things now. So in the present day world, most of
your arguments against brahmins doesn't stand at all.
BTW, here too I always make it a point to speak in tamil and also
teach tamil to some of my friends... Also whenever I go on stage
I make it a point to sing atleast one tamil song ( even though
not many like my singing ;-)) ). I appreciate your love for
tamil and do support it. But you can definitely show that love
without abusing the present day brahmins, for they haven't done
anything against tamil.
>>S. Sankarapandi
>>ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
krish
--
S S Krishna
Deptt. of Computer Science
Oregon State Univ, Corvallis, OR 97331
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>In article <kat.743223263@yar> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>Hey kathir,
> I have followed most of your articles. But this particular article in
> which you answered sankarapandi's questions really impressed me.
> You were quite straight forward in accepting that you haven't read much
> to talk about these sensitive issues. But you should accept one thing.
> Tamizhs do not consider other languages better than their own language
> tamizh. And in that way you blaming tamilnadu brahmins is
> unreasonable. If you don't know let me tell you this. I have
I did not comment about periyaar's theism becasue
I do not know. I never studied. I have heard some brahmin friends
accuse him even abuse him. But the only thing I found out
was periyaar did not organize any violence against brahmins.
I do not pick up this guy that guy and blame them.
The problem is the establishment that approves superiority
based on their birth. When somebody puts himself [may be if
a non-paarpaan] in that position it is very bad. The people
mostly believe in a gOd, the almighty. Certainly the gullible
will do all the aasaarams, sadangkukaL and the priests exploit
them.
One remarkable change in our area. No priests. No
great sadangkukaL. Some rich guys do veedu puNNiya archchanai,
call a preist, give all he wants to make gOd happy. My
mother's uncle is one who did that. I confronted him
as we never did anything for our new house. We just
boiled milk, offered prayer and invited neighbours
and gave some money to our raaju koththaNaar. Every
year we give something to raaju during pongkal. He
built the house for us.
> heard many brahmins when they come out of the state, since they
> can't get admission to study advanced courses, state that they do
> not want to leave their state but couldn't continue there due to
> the procedure used to give admissions. I'm a brahmin and I for one
> would have never liked to leave TN.
Yes. I did find many paarpaar friends quite pious,
simple and dont air superiority. Some people like
my former room mate was a radical; disbeliever.
He always used to commend us and encourage us for he
knows for generations we did not read or write anything
as opposed to some veLLaalars [piLLiarmaars, saiva mudaLiyaars]
who had a long tradition of formal learning in thamizh.
But I cannot hide the fact that I have encountered
a lot of plain supremacists . I do disntinguish them as
I do not respect them and have nicer paarpaar friends.
> And your concept of brahmins praising sanskrit is wrong. Not many
> brahmins speak sanskrit. Everyone in TN speaks only tamil. If they
> use sanskrit for some poojas and all what is the problem. Everyone
> has some privacy. Some ancestors of the brahmin community migh have
> used sanskrit for their power. But not now. People do not really
> care about many things now. So in the present day world, most of
> your arguments against brahmins doesn't stand at all.
My point was how can so much funds allocated
for sanskrit a non living language and very
disproportionally. Please
look into that. The power brokers in the
center who happened to be the sanskrit-type [if you wish
I take care in not putting every common man in the
community and also include pan indian brahminists]
do support that. Establishmenst like
BHEL and central govt. are totally community controlled.
I have written about this earlier.
> BTW, here too I always make it a point to speak in tamil and also
> teach tamil to some of my friends... Also whenever I go on stage
> I make it a point to sing atleast one tamil song ( even though
> not many like my singing ;-)) ). I appreciate your love for
> tamil and do support it. But you can definitely show that love
> without abusing the present day brahmins, for they haven't done
> anything against tamil.
I feel good about your love for thamizh.
thanks,
anban
kathir
Krishna Sivaramapuram
> I did not comment about periyaar's theism becasue
> I do not know. I never studied. I have heard some brahmin friends
> accuse him even abuse him. But the only thing I found out
> was periyaar did not organize any violence against brahmins.
>
> I do not pick up this guy that guy and blame them.
> The problem is the establishment that approves superiority
> based on their birth. When somebody puts himself [may be if
> a non-paarpaan] in that position it is very bad. The people
> mostly believe in a gOd, the almighty. Certainly the gullible
> will do all the aasaarams, sadangkukaL and the priests exploit
> them.
One important question arises from reading many of your postings. You
yourself have said that you have found many good brahmins too. In my
opinion, many are like that (good). Very few are still practicing the
old traditions. In that case, why blame the whole community of
brahmins. Why not only those people who are responsible for those kind of
acts? BTW, there are people of this kind in every caste. So why not group
all these people who still practice casteism instead of just
saying brahmins are responsible.
>
> One remarkable change in our area. No priests. No
> great sadangkukaL. Some rich guys do veedu puNNiya archchanai,
> call a preist, give all he wants to make gOd happy. My
> mother's uncle is one who did that. I confronted him
> as we never did anything for our new house. We just
> boiled milk, offered prayer and invited neighbours
> and gave some money to our raaju koththaNaar. Every
> year we give something to raaju during pongkal. He
> built the house for us.
Also the questions about ceremonies and poojas.... These are good
place to get-together with relatives and friends. Why not view it
in that way rather than picking upon the language used for the
mantras in those ceremonies. Every caste has its good and bad points.
Why not take the good points? Many on this net have been talking
of only the bad points and that too only about brahmins?
If you are really intested in taking the bad elements off the
community shouldn't you be talking against the bad points in
each and every caste rather than just the brahmins?
> My point was how can so much funds allocated
> for sanskrit a non living language and very
> disproportionally. Please
People never like things to become extinct in this world. When they see
something is near extinction, they tend to put in some resources to
revive it. Sanskrit is one among them. It was one of those languages
which was once a commonly spoken language in India (according to what I
have heard). Nowadays it is not being spoken. Also the interest in
learning sanskrit is also waning. These are sure signs off something
which is going out of vogue. That is probably the only reason why
sanskrit is given some priority these days. Since it is one of
our 15 national languages it is out duty to revive it. As far as tamil
is concerned it is being spoken still and its popularity is always rising.
Moreover I don't think the money put into tamil research in less.....
> look into that. The power brokers in the
> center who happened to be the sanskrit-type [if you wish
> I take care in not putting every common man in the
> community and also include pan indian brahminists]
> do support that. Establishmenst like
> BHEL and central govt. are totally community controlled.
> I have written about this earlier.
It is better to put it this way. It is not only brahmins who do these things.
Anyone who is in power in India ( for that matter at any place) will do this.
It is common human psychology.
Also as someone requested you, can you please drop the word paarpaar from
you comments from now. You may consider that as a valid tamil word. But it
is definitely derogatory these days, particularly after some political
parties used that word to irritate the brahmins.
You can even use pirAmaNar as you have used sometimes. That is a tamil
word too. Even that sounds a bit odd to me. But I can live with it if
you want to use only a tamil word ( until I find something better).
But I would definitely like you to use the english word brahmin. When
you writing the whole stuff in English, why not use one more english
word. It is really not worth, to hurt the feelings of so many people for the
sake of sticking to tamil. Is it?
> thanks,
> anban
> kathir
M. Sundaramoorthy
>
>
> I did not originally post on periyaar. I have not read
> about him as some others did. I do not quote
> religious texts to forward periyaar or defend him.
article on Periyar. When someone does, don't intervene and screw
up, as you yourself claim you haven't read as others did.
> In reply to Dan I explained as a Hindu
> why I see periyaar attack Brahmanism as a school
> of Hindu thought.
Yes he did attack Bramhminism. But didn't not exclude the so called
Dravidian Gods, which you keep glorifying now, in his attacks.
>
>
> My quoting of mEl maruvaththoor was just an
> instance where as far as I know caste [women] is not the bar
> in front of gOd to perform the poosai. [I myself
> came to know this thro' friends] Women are not allowed
> in the conventional Hindu system.
Will you be more clear here?. Do they have priests from low castes
or women? Or no priest at all?. Can anyone enter the Sanctum
Sanctorum (sp?) to perform poosai?.
>
> I also do not know whether Bangaru has
> written any book defending castes.
> If there are blind followers [i am not one] then
> I will not hesitate to condemn them. I consider
> prayer by everybody [accomodating women] as an advancement.
Ok. I haven't read any book of Sankarachari myself as I was least
interested in such books. I believe you that he did write books
espousing caste and join you to condemn him and the defenders of
such beliefs he propagtes.
Now tell me, what proportions of the followers of Sankarachari
are castist and Bangaru have no caste feelings. If you can
convince me that a significant portion of Bangaru's followers
shed their caste identities and feelings, I don't mind becoming
his follower myself. If at least 50% of his 1 crore followers
did that it is a major achviement of all time. But I doubt, if
1% of the people did.
> I am not an atheist and need not be
> to defend periyaar for whatever good he has done.
> I also do not say any thing about periyaar's belief
> in gOd. I defended him [when dan wrote] why he
> attacked Hindu practices.
I have no problem with atheists or theists or agnostics. What I was
questioning was the racist attitudes of some of them. Your posts
with "my religion/Gods/language is superior to yours" attitude is
nothing but a mirror image of Kuram's racist posts.
>
> I do not know why you mix my posts and think
> that one should be an athiest to defend the
> good of periyaar. Maybe some DK idiots can
> can go and tell saani for santhanam etc.
The fact that his quote "kadavuLai nambugiRavan muttaaL, kadvuLaip
padaiththavan kaattumiraaNdi, kadavuLaip parappugiRavan aiyyOggian"
is found on the pedestal of his statues all over, show that it is
his basic idea of God and his entire ideology is built on it.
(In previous posts of Meenan this quote used to be there, but in the
current series it is mystyriously missing, though they are 'reposts').
Now coming to your point that you need not be atheist to defend Periyar,
there are different people using his name for different purposes. The
major among them are vote the thirsty politicians and those who want
reservations, no matter they have any faith in his basic ideolgy and
rational or not.
> I respect my religion and I belive that there
> is a lot of simple and humble feelings about
> being second to just god.
I don't have any problem here. But I question only if you blast other
religions and caste for reasons that are prevelant in "your" religion
and caste also. That is what I called double standard.
>
> You quoting that I say "BD as a great poet"
> is just out of the air. I have not quoted
> a single verse of bharathidasan other than
> thamizhukkum amuthenRu pEr.
Yes. He is a great poet, whether or not you say. But not just because
he wrote 'thamizhukkum amuthenRu pEr'. There are much better poems
of him than this emotional one.
>
>
> No it is not personal. I just defended
> why periyaar opposed Hindu religious establishment.
> I do believe in gOd and see a lot of screw ups
> in religious beliefs. Like the connection drawn
> between raaman and maayOn and creating hatred
> by saying "X is bad, Y is better as X is praised
> by his people for being virtuous."
He said both X and Y are bad. But you say Y is bad and X is good
as opposed to those who say X is bad and Y is good. That is where,
I say, your double standard posts creat false impression about
Periyar.
>
> I am not fanatic about my religion.
> I quoted John and said "How Christians worship in
> thamizh." I go to church ocassionally.
>
>
> anban
> kathir
M. Sundaramoorthy
sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
P.S: Instead of finding faults and accusing Brahmins alone on weekly
basis for espousing caste feelings, try to do something to remove
such feelings from your community people. There is lot of work
that needs to be done in Kongu vElaalar community also. It is
a politically dominant caste, whichever the party rules. The caste
based favouritism in that community is as high as in Brahmin
community ( I have seen this at least among students and faculty
members in Guindy Engineering college and IISc, when I was a student
there). The low caste 'arunthathiyar' community in Kongu region is
the one of the most oppressed communities, where the Kongu Gownders
and Kamma Naidu's are the most powerful land owning communities.
(please don't quote Manikkavasagar or Thirumoolar to claim there is
no caste among "Dravidians" or in "Dravidian religion". I am talking
about contemporary realities).
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>
>People never like things to become extinct in this world. When they see
>something is near extinction, they tend to put in some resources to
>revive it. Sanskrit is one among them. It was one of those languages
>which was once a commonly spoken language in India (according to what I
"according to what I have heard" Sanskrit was never a spoken
language . I also infer from various considerations that
sanskrit was not a spoken language. A long time ago Vedic
must have been a spoken language, I admit, in the north west and again
by a small community ( not by majority of people in any significantly
large region as far as I can infer).
Sanksrit appears to be an artificially
cultivated language ( like a garden).
Sanskrit must have been in the ken of a small section of
people even in the ancient days and certainly in the last
2000 ( two thousand ) years or so. While the truth seems
to be ( as far as I can infer) that Sanskrit _absorbed_ a lot
of native words and ideas, it is often said by sanskrit
enthusiasts that native languages borrowed from skt.
>have heard). Nowadays it is not being spoken. Also the interest in
>learning sanskrit is also waning. These are sure signs off something
>which is going out of vogue. That is probably the only reason why
>sanskrit is given some priority these days. Since it is one of
>our 15 national languages it is out duty to revive it. As far as tamil
>is concerned it is being spoken still and its popularity is always rising.
>Moreover I don't think the money put into tamil research in less.....
While I fully support the idea of sanskrit scholarship and
Govt. money spent for it etc., I think it is extremely unjust
not to spend equal or larger sum of money for a living ancient
language of india, Tamil. I don't agree that skt. need to be
given any priority higher than tamil. I disagree with you about
'reviving' skt. as a natural language since i believe skt was
not a natural language. I would gladly accept that skt scholarship
need to be revived. Speaking in skt will be like speaking
in esperanto ( _can_ be done ..but.. :) )
Although I don't have figures with me, the money spent for
skt. is much much greater than for tamil. Also, national
honours are given for skt scholars, why does not india give
national honours to tamil scholars ( say for DevanEya Paavaanar,
and many living scholars) ??! The disparity and unjust
practices of the cental govt. in this matter of language
are innumerable..
>S S Krishna
>
>Deptt. of Computer Science
>Oregon State Univ, Corvallis, OR 97331
anbudan
-Selvaa
Krishna Sivaramapuram
>In article <22k7q7...@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> siv...@jasper.CS.ORST.EDU (Krishna Sivaramapuram) writes:
>>
>>People never like things to become extinct in this world. When they see
>>something is near extinction, they tend to put in some resources to
>>revive it. Sanskrit is one among them. It was one of those languages
>>which was once a commonly spoken language in India (according to what I
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> "according to what I have heard" Sanskrit was never a spoken
> language . I also infer from various considerations that
> sanskrit was not a spoken language. A long time ago Vedic
> must have been a spoken language, I admit, in the north west and again
When I said "once a commonly spoken language" I meant a very very long time
ago. As you said during the vedic periods... As I haven't read the facts by
myself, I'm not too sure about this either. But the whole point I was getting
to is that it is definitely a language which not many people want to study
(and hence dying). That's why people are trying to revive it...
> While I fully support the idea of sanskrit scholarship and
> Govt. money spent for it etc., I think it is extremely unjust
> not to spend equal or larger sum of money for a living ancient
> language of india, Tamil. I don't agree that skt. need to be
If you accept that sanskrit is a sort of a dying language in the context of this
discussion ( that is compared with respect to tamil) spending more amount of
money (compared to tamil) to revive that language is reasonable.
> Although I don't have figures with me, the money spent for
> skt. is much much greater than for tamil. Also, national
> honours are given for skt scholars, why does not india give
> national honours to tamil scholars ( say for DevanEya Paavaanar,
> and many living scholars) ??! The disparity and unjust
> practices of the cental govt. in this matter of language
> are innumerable..
I didn't know about the national honours and stuff like that. Thanks for
filling me in with some details. But I would like to know, how many
other Indian national languages enjoy this privilege. If no other Indian
national language enjoys this privilege other than sanskrit, then I guess
it is justified, since sanskrit is probably the only not widely spoken language
(right now) in India.
> anbudan
> -Selvaa
krish
--
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>In article <kat.743200496@tomalak> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>> My quoting of mEl maruvaththoor was just an
>> instance where as far as I know caste [women] is not the bar
>> in front of gOd to perform the poosai. [I myself
>> came to know this thro' friends] Women are not allowed
>> in the conventional Hindu system.
> Will you be more clear here?. Do they have priests from low castes
> or women? Or no priest at all?. Can anyone enter the Sanctum
> Sanctorum (sp?) to perform poosai?.
I just don't know. I told that I heard from
friends that people of all castes are let in to
do poosai. I haven't been there to tell. I am sorry
if I did not give more factual information.
>>
>> I am not an atheist and need not be
>> to defend periyaar for whatever good he has done.
>> I also do not say any thing about periyaar's belief
>> in gOd. I defended him [when dan wrote] why he
>> attacked Hindu practices.
> I have no problem with atheists or theists or agnostics. What I was
> questioning was the racist attitudes of some of them. Your posts
> with "my religion/Gods/language is superior to yours" attitude is
> nothing but a mirror image of Kuram's racist posts.
>
I only said the evolution of HALF_MALE concept
in saiva siththaantham. PLEASE QUOTE MY POSTS and SHOW
THAT I TOLD "Your Gods are greater than mine". It is
the principle I was talking about. God is one. You
cannot trivialize and simplify anything.
>>
>>
>> I do believe in gOd and see a lot of screw ups
>> in religious beliefs. Like the connection drawn
>> between raaman and maayOn and creating hatred
>> by saying "X is bad, Y is better as X is praised
>> by his people for being virtuous."
>
> He said both X and Y are bad. But you say Y is bad and X is good
> as opposed to those who say X is bad and Y is good. That is where,
Infact he did attack Y-God (as somebody has projected
thro a story)
and not X-Man(his man praised by his people for being
virtuous).
> I say, your double standard posts creat false impression about
> Periyar.
Please sundar do not mix up. My article on
Raaman vs RaavaNan was not on periyaar thread.
Please read my mail carefully.
I am sure you have read ramayanam.
I am referring
to saying Rama was a gOd. Ravana was a sinner.
X-Ravana and Y -Rama.
and Ravana is not claimed by me or anybody as
gOd. But he is a virtuous person according
to my faith and the story does not say
Y-Rama is any better than Y.
What I said was that it is Y-Rama much a myth
or concept as maayOn or thirumaal and there is
no connection between raaman and maayOn [kaNNan] and that
it is bad in principle to integrate some gOd
into a regional gOd and spin a story around depicting
somebody in that region [X-Ravana] as bad while he is considerd
good.
I do not think my article on Ramayanam is double
standard or projects wrong periyaar.
And PLEASE DO not make wrong conclusions.
that I said my god is better than your gOd.
Please do not trivialize. If you want to
seroiusly argue tell it right in the respective
thread. That would mean sincerity in criticism.
Do not form opinions, combine them and say
"you say your god is better than other person's
gOd". that I never said. The Raaman discussion was a old one
of selva that I posted.
demonizing X and his people [soorpaNahai, taadakai]
and deifying
Y and projecting Y to X's people is what was
objected to not X itself [gOd, the only one].
>>
>> I am not fanatic about my religion.
>> I quoted John and said "How Christians worship in
>> thamizh." I go to church ocassionally.
>>
>>
>> anban
>> kathir
> M. Sundaramoorthy
> sun...@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
Note: I do not defend oppression and casteism
displayed by my community or any other community.
I was not attacking any person. [If you felt that
way I am sorry]. I never support reservations
for educated rich people as I have written
umpteen times.I boycotted the meeting they
called in our community for pushing it
to most backward class from backward class.
I never needed any reservations, my dad
needed [FC] and he did not have. I only
identify me as a thamizh who has roots in
koNGku country.
My reply to Dan was instantaneous and I
did not use theism to defend periyaar or continue
more on that thread with Dan as some others
who knew more did.
S. Sankarapandi
In article <kat.743230968@yar> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) w
rites:
>In <22ia1n$c...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state
.edu (S. Sankarapandi) writes:
>
>
>>In article <kat.743200496@tomalak> k...@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamur
th
>>i) writes:
>
>>3. Regarding `paarppaar': I think this word has become derogatory because of
>>the DK-DMK public meetings, it is equivalent to calling others as `Shudras' o
r
>>the Afro-Americans as Negros. Dont justify that this is a Tamil word and it
is
>>found in Tamil poems etc. The same Bharathi (whom you quote here) has also
>>mentioned about Shudras in the poems. Do you think that non-Brahmins should
>>be called as `sUththirar'.
>
>about.
>
> I had a long duel with a laavanya mOhan
>from Finland and Raj joined as well.
>I was referring paarpaar as a caste. They
>said they did not know that it was a
>correct word. Yes. Caste based word.
>
> Brahmin thamizhized a piraamaNar-after
>I read thirumoolar I seldom use it.
>He wants, rather demands piraamaNar to
>have a lot of qualities. Since it
>is a qulity based as an anthaNar I
>sometimes do not use it as there could`
>be only a few true piraamaNar or anthaNar
>amoung paarpaars.
>
> I personlly have not attended
>a single DK-DMK meeting.
>And your assumption that it
>is derogatory sounds new to me.
>In our speech anything said
>with ... an has less respect.
>When you say aar it implies
>no derogatory.
>
I read your other follow-up to my posting also. I understand that you talk
many things which you were not very clear about. That is the reason your views
are self-contradicting. If you dont know, I will repeat again on this issue.
The word `paarppaar' is a Tamil word for Brahmin but it has become derogatory
because of the bad political connotations (is similar to `negro' for
African-americans). However, in sociological research of Tamil Nadu, they are
still being referred to as `paarppaar' as analogous to `Negro' in
anthropological research. But when we address or refer somebody with the word,
they feel it as derogatory. If they feel that way, why should one call with
that name.
> I have used it
>umpteen number of times and I find
>it weird rather now that you raise
>concerns as somebody objected.
>Why was the title of your sudalai mode
>posts paarpaanum -veLLalanum. If
>you so worried about that you
>could have changed that a bit.
>
As I said before, I dont read all your postings. I have only seen RRS using
such names against some individuals in this net. We all (including you)
condemned him. I specifically changed the title alone in my translation. The
original article was a sociological research article by Prof.Rajagowthaman
with the title "paarppanarum vELaaLarum Thamizhagamum". I tranlated the whole
article in English without any change except the title. I posted them under
the title "TN castes - a brief sociological history".
> I am one who does not keep
>something in heart and write bad
>thing. When I call some people who
>follow something " stupid" why would
>I worry. It it is right it is right.
>If it is wrong it is wrong.
>Icing and smoothing for finer effects
>is not my character
I understand this and I think many others who find your postings offensive also
understand this. I only wanted to point out the inconsistencies (or double
standards or contradications) that arise because of your instantaneous
reaction. I too dont like icing and smoothing to present myself more pleasing
than what I am. But when I say something, I am very clear about my thinking
and I analyze whether I contradict myself. Even then, I fail sometimes and try
to correct my opinions when others point out.
Your explantions about God-religion-Tamil etc have not yet convinced me. May be
you should think more about them.
S. Sankarapandi
ssan...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Mahesh S. Kumar
>
>
>
> One remarkable change in our area. No priests. No
> great sadangkukaL. Some rich guys do veedu puNNiya archchanai,
> call a preist, give all he wants to make gOd happy. My
> mother's uncle is one who did that. I confronted him
> as we never did anything for our new house. We just
> boiled milk, offered prayer and invited neighbours
You can 'just boil milk' and offer prayers and none should
find fault with that. On the other hand if a brahmin 'just
sprinkles water' and offers prayers, you seem to have a big
problem. WHY ???
> thanks,
> anban
> kathir
>
>
Mahesh Kumar
usual disclaimer applies.