Mudaliars are Weavers
Vivek Shanmuganathan (95410006-BS)
This is in response to the query related to the caste by name 'Veera Sengundha
Mudaliar'.
I am native of South Tamil Nadu. I am hailing from a place very close to Ettaiyapuram, the birth place of Subramanya Bharathi.
My village and ettaiyapuram and surrounding areas have a significant Mudaliar
population. In my village there are 'Sengundha Mudaliar' and 'KaickOla
Mudaliar'. Mostly, all the Mudaliar castes have Cotton Weaving as the primary
profession. Cotton Saarees, Lungis, Towels, Bed Sheets, etc. made by Mudaliars
are very good in quality. As I find, agriculture has always been a secondary
one for Mudaliars.
While 'Mudaliars' are regarded as 'Forward Community' as per govt rules,
'Kaickolars' and 'Sengundhars' are backward community and can avail themselves
of reservation in gov jobs and educational institutios.
I also know of Christian Mudalirs and Latin Catholic Mudaliars, who are
officially listed as forward community.
'Co-optex', The Cooperative Handloom Textile Society and Tamil Nadu gov are
giving due importance for the development of weavers in the state as clothin
is regarded an important basic need next only to food and water. Apart from
Mudaliars, Saurashtras (originally from Gujarat about 600 years ago) and
Saaliars are also weavers. Saurashtras are mostly silk-weavers while Mudaliars
use cotton.
However, I do not know the origin of the names 'sengundar', 'kaickolar' etc.
Best regards,
Vivek...
pallavan
history of them!
APrasadRao
>history of them!
Mr Pallavan your attempt at deriving a meaning for Kaikulavar as if they are
decendants of North Indian Kshatriyas are not correct. A lot of South Indians
claim north Indian Aryan ancestry specifically Kshatriya because they want to
elevate themselves over others.
Kaikulavar is more closely associated with function they do using their kai
which is their hand. So kaikulavar are weavers like Salliyar who claim Aryan
ancestry like all south india Vysyas. If you are an Indian you will know that
all Komati Chettys call themselves as Arya Vysya Chettys, this is common for
many non brahmin castes of south India.
Even fishermen in India claim Aryan ancestry, you have go behind these caste
stories to really understand who they are. Kaikulava Mudaliar are not Sengonda
Mudalaiar. But both do the same historical function which is weaving. This is
not to say Sengonda were ancient Padai Veerar but Kai Kulavar are not Pali
Speaking Pallavas who have become Tamils. They are pure Tamils. I am pretty
sure you have never come across a kaikullavar they have no resemblance to any
North Indians, they are Tamils.
Prasad Rao
pallavan
to assume your theory. Read the Chola history which was written by
K.Nilakanda Sastry. Further you read about the Pallava history of
Kanchipuram. Pallava kings used Pali as their language at first then
they changed to Sanskrit. They used a mixured language in their later
days.
Kaikulavar is the corruption for Kai kula in Tamil. Sometime I found in
Tamil Nadu They are called Kai Kolar. But the word Kai Kulavar means
Kulavar( people of a kula) belongs to Kai. KAI = KHAI is not in the
usage of Sanskrit or Tamil.
Read some Pali texts. King Asoka used Pali language as his court
language. Pallavas came from the Andhra. If you read King Asoka's
history you will know the Andhra country was ruled by King Asoka.
Other issue is Tamilization of other languages..
Can you tell me "Armenian Street" and "Aranmanaikaran Street" are same ?
Yes. Both are same. The word Armenian is corrupted into Tamil as
Aranmanaikaran, but they are different words. You ask any Tamil scholar
abot how the HAMILTON BRIDGE became BARBER BRIDGE?
Further the Senguntha(Tamilized) Mudali(ars) started weaving after the
arrival of the Vijayanagar rule. You should know that the past time or
hobby for the ancient Khastriya people was weaving. Elevating over the
other is an Indian problem. Most of the fallen kingdoms and their former
rulers are treated as low. Now thriving and claiming HIGH are the people
who collobarated with the invaders. Kshatriaya people were treated as
enemies by iinvaders but the Brahmins who were dependents of Kshatria
people changed their honour to invading beef eeters and worked for them.
Only the Rajas survived are the colloboraters or accepted the supremacy
of the invaders.
But the Pallavas were defeated by CHOLAS before any forighn invader but
many Pallava descendents worked for Cholas.
Your explanation for the word KAIKULAVAR is laughable. All the people
have hands and why did not they call Kaikulavar in Tamil Nadu?
You did not say the meaning and why these people are called "SENGUNTHA"
Muthaliars?
Claiming Aryan ancestry is nothing wrong if they are. Further Brahmins
are not the only Aryans. Kshatriyas are also part and parcel of the
Brahmins. Pallava Kings belonged to Bharadwaja Kotram. Present day
Kaikula people belong to NANTHI KOTHRAM. Nanthi Kothram is belongs to
the gurding of Lord Shiva. First Pallava King was NANTHI VARMA who
defeated the KHALBRAS and liberated Thonda Mandalam of Tamil nadu.
Sometime these Pallava kings were buddhists. Read the stories of Tamil
Saint. Thiru Gnana Sambanthar.
Your ignorance is visible that you tell that Kaikula is different from
Senguntha. First one is Pali, second one is Tamil but both words have
seperate meaning. Further Kaikula Muthaliars and Senguntha Muthaliars
are same people.
Do you know the Andhra "KAI KOLARU"? Kaikula people are not Tamils by
their ancestry, but now they become Tamils by all means. Queen of
England is German but theose royals speak English!
Not only Kaikula people, the Tamil Nadu Brahmins too has no resemblence
with any North Indians! Are you going to tell us that the Tamil nadu
Brahmis are not Aryan? Can you tell the colour of the Tamil people? You
better visit Kanchi and meet some Kaikula or Senguntha people.
Are you telling that their is no fisherman in North India?
Nayakkar are the people belonged to Vijaya Nagar Royal and soldier
clans, but many in Tamil Nadu work as farmers or leather workers. Is
this mean that those Nayakkars have no claim for their Telugu origin or
Vijaya Nagar connections?
APrasadRao
you are a decendant of Pure Aryan Living as a weaver in South India. I am sorry
to have done that.
I lived all my life in Madras among Tamilians and Telugus and Tamilized
Telugus. I have come across many "Velakanaiz" which is a nick name for
Mudaliars.
Your rendetion of gothrams is laughable, gothrams were introduced to south
India by hindu priests specifically for them, others picked it up afterwards
and created gothrams for them to feel better than others.
Telugu ancestry of many Tamils is a known fact. Even the great Tamilian EVR
Periar was of nayakar ancestry. Nayakar by itself has become a caste only now,
in Andhra no one is called a Nayyakar. Many Reddys, Naidus, Rajus were
amalgamated into Nayakkar caste. Many of the Vijaya nagara soldiers were Malla
and Madiga, as they came to Tamil Nadu they were now known by the title
Nayyakar, but some of them went back to their old jobs like what Malla and
Madiga do in AP. Thats why some Nayykar are in leather business. Also some
Nayyakar are land owners and cultivators like kappus and Kammas are in AP. My
Friend whose last name is Venkatrama Naidu is called by the title Nayyakaru in
his village close to Thanjavur although he is a Kapu Naidu.
Senhuntha Mudaliar do not intermarry with Kai Kula madualiar they are two
differant castes. It is probable that one has Tamil and the other Telugu
ancestry.
When I talked about fishermen I meant South Indian fishermen, castes such as
Parathavar say that the actual word is Bharathava so that they are North Indian
Kshatriyas called Bharath who after aloosing a war became shudra fishermen in
TN. Just like you said how your ancestors became Shudra weavers after loosing
the war to Cholas.
I have gone to Kanchipuram and Thanjavur where many Telugus and Tamils live.
They are a mixed bunch. In Kanchpuram all the Shop signs are even in Telugu
because a lot of Telugus come there to buy sarees woven by Saliyar, Kaikular,
Sengunthar etc. I have met many weavers including the Suarashtra kind. I can
tell you that there is a distinct physical differance between Surashtra Weavers
(who are real North Indians) and Kai Kular and Sengunthar who are Tamils and
Telugus. So dont teach Indians history we know ours very well and do not live
in a dream world. Periyar has made sure we knew our real history than to belive
in stupid gothrams.
Further I will tell you that the Pallavas and all other old Kingdoms used
Prakrit and Sanskrit in their courts. Also the Bharwadja gothram is a pure
Brahmin gothram and the kings coming from a learned Brahmins family has
happened in Indian history many times including Vijaynagar, Hoysala, Gupta, etc
But very sadly not a real north Indian Kshatriya made it to beyond the Vindyas
into South India not even the weaving kind. It was all made up by the locals
who are competing in a crowded field of Shudras.
Many Shudra Tamil and Telugu caste including the Pallar who claim Pallava
ancestry claim Arya Vysya or Arya Kshatriya ancestry which does not hold upto
in real history and genetic studies.
Prasad Rao.
yash...@my-dejanews.com
apras...@aol.com (APrasadRao) wrote:
> Your rendetion of gothrams is laughable, gothrams were introduced to south
> India by hindu priests specifically for them, others picked it up afterwards
> and created gothrams for them to feel better than others.
The term gothram can have two meanings. First, it is an exogamous
group. Secondly, for Brahmins and many non-brahmins, it is the the
name of an ancient rishi (sage). A brahmin with Bharadwaj gotram
is a "descendant" of sage Bhardwaj either genetially, or through
teacher-student relationship. If the gothram of Brahmin were
unknown, he would take the gothram of his teacher. The rishi-gotram
of a non-Brahmin family would the gothram of the Brahmin teacher
of the family, perhaps in remote antiquity. Thus the Buddha's
gotram was "Gautam" after the ancient sage Gautam.
> Prakrit and Sanskrit in their courts. Also the Bharwadja gothram is a pure
> Brahmin gothram and the kings coming from a learned Brahmins family has
> happened in Indian history many times including Vijaynagar, Hoysala, Gupta,
It is true that several royal families originated from Brahmins,
for example Shunga, Kanva, Guhilots of Udaipur, Chandellas of
Khajuraho etc. I don't think Guptas are one of them. Also
just as some Brahmins have become Kshatriyas, some Kshatriyas
have become Brahmin.
> But very sadly not a real north Indian Kshatriya made it to beyond the
>Vindyas into South India
It is quite possible that some did. We know for sure that
some Kshatriya of North originated south of the Vindhyas,
like the Rathores and Solanki.
Scholars disagree about who is a Kshatriya and who is a Shudra.
Some say that no Kshatriyas exist today. The propor view today
is to regard everyone belonging to all four varnas at the same
time.
Yashwant
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>
>Scholars disagree about who is a Kshatriya and who is a Shudra.
>Some say that no Kshatriyas exist today. The propor view today
>is to regard everyone belonging to all four varnas at the same
>time.
In South India , in contrast to North, whoever was not Brahmin was
considered Shudras. For example Nairs in Kerala are functional Kshatriyas,
but ritual shudras. Merchant castes werw also Vaishyas functionally, but
shudras ritually.
A term Sat was also added to shudras as Satshudras, as good shudras who
upheld the traditional order.
KRSReddy
>considered Shudras. For example Nairs in Kerala are functional Kshatriyas,
>but ritual shudras. Merchant castes werw also Vaishyas functionally, but
>shudras ritually.
>
>A term Sat was also added to shudras as Satshudras, as good shudras who
>upheld the traditional order.
>
>
Yes In S.India every one except Brahmins are Shudras. Most of the Northie
immigrants are merchants or workers caste like weavers hence even they are
Shudra or Vysya. Not a single soul is Kshatriya it is all made up by the
locals. Even the Reddys claim to be Kshatriya but they are just land owners
like the rest of them.
pallavan
developed history through that idea.
Can you tell when did the GOTHRAMS started in South India? Is it last
year?
Creating GOTHRAMS to show better than others! What do you mean? All the
brahmins do this?
You assumptions are wrong. Senguntha and Kai Kula Mudaliars are the same
people. Senguntha and Kai Kula people are one and the same in Sri Lanka.
They came from Kanchipuram before the Chola period!
I think Senguntha or Kaikula people not reached SHUDRA level in TN. This
is your assumption or your personal idea!
Bharathavas never claim any Kshatriya ancestry but you assume that
fisherman is low. Bharathavas are fishermen but they should have
connection with the North india. You can't deny them!
Can you tell about the fish eating Bengali Brahmins?
You did not tell the meaning of the words for SENGUNTHA and KAI KULA!
Do you know how the Kshatriya caste evolved?
At last you say " don't teach". This shows your defeat in your
assumptions. You did not say why the TN brahmins are not look like
Northern Brahmins!
Your Saurashtra weavers(400 years or less) are the latest arrivals to
Tamil Nadu. It will take time to change their physical shape! Further I
do not know why you expect Kai kula and Senguntha people should look
like Saurashtras? First you said that Senguntha and Kai kular are pure
Tamils. Now you say they are Telugu too. Good development after my
teaching .Sorry, posting!
APrasadRao wrote:
>
> I dont try to mislead you at all, may be I am breaking your belief system that
> you are a decendant of Pure Aryan Living as a weaver in South India. I am sorry
> to have done that.
>
> I lived all my life in Madras among Tamilians and Telugus and Tamilized
> Telugus. I have come across many "Velakanaiz" which is a nick name for
> Mudaliars.
>
> Your rendetion of gothrams is laughable, gothrams were introduced to south
> India by hindu priests specifically for them, others picked it up afterwards
> and created gothrams for them to feel better than others.
>
> Prakrit and Sanskrit in their courts. Also the Bharwadja gothram is a pure
> Brahmin gothram and the kings coming from a learned Brahmins family has
> happened in Indian history many times including Vijaynagar, Hoysala, Gupta, etc
>
> But very sadly not a real north Indian Kshatriya made it to beyond the Vindyas
pallavan
>
> In article <19981227133322...@ng-fu1.aol.com>,
> apras...@aol.com (APrasadRao) wrote:
>
> > India by hindu priests specifically for them, others picked it up afterwards
> > and created gothrams for them to feel better than others.
>
> group. Secondly, for Brahmins and many non-brahmins, it is the the
> name of an ancient rishi (sage). A brahmin with Bharadwaj gotram
> is a "descendant" of sage Bhardwaj either genetially, or through
> teacher-student relationship. If the gothram of Brahmin were
> unknown, he would take the gothram of his teacher. The rishi-gotram
> of a non-Brahmin family would the gothram of the Brahmin teacher
> of the family, perhaps in remote antiquity. Thus the Buddha's
> gotram was "Gautam" after the ancient sage Gautam.
Lord Buddha was identified as Kshatriya in Maha vamsa and in other
Buddhist chronicles.
>
> > Prakrit and Sanskrit in their courts. Also the Bharwadja gothram is a pure
> > Brahmin gothram and the kings coming from a learned Brahmins family has
> > happened in Indian history many times including Vijaynagar, Hoysala, Gupta,
>
> It is true that several royal families originated from Brahmins,
> for example Shunga, Kanva, Guhilots of Udaipur, Chandellas of
> Khajuraho etc. I don't think Guptas are one of them. Also
> just as some Brahmins have become Kshatriyas, some Kshatriyas
> have become Brahmin.
>
> > But very sadly not a real north Indian Kshatriya made it to beyond the
> >Vindyas into South India
>
> It is quite possible that some did. We know for sure that
> some Kshatriya of North originated south of the Vindhyas,
> like the Rathores and Solanki.
King Asoka's empire extended beyond Vindhyas. Andhra was under that. We
do no know the borders of Andhra at the time. Asoka pillar inscriptions
gives this informations.
>
> Scholars disagree about who is a Kshatriya and who is a Shudra.
> Some say that no Kshatriyas exist today. The propor view today
> is to regard everyone belonging to all four varnas at the same
> time.
>
pallavan
people cook up their own stories to elivate or safe guard their current
interests in India.
Those who were faithful to Hindu religion and their Kings were treated
in the last five centuries as aliens in their own countries. Their
ancestral past now became their own stories. Contributions of those
people to the culture and history is completely forgotten or destroyed.
KRSReddy
>people. Senguntha and Kai Kula people are one and the same in Sri Lanka.
You are in the wrong NG. In Tamilnadu they are differant castes. After
migrating to Sri lanka may be they intermarry.
>They came from Kanchipuram before the Chola period!
They must be Sinhalese by now, not Tamils or Telugus so not covered by the
caste system.
>I think Senguntha or Kaikula people not reached SHUDRA level in TN. This
>is your assumption or your personal idea!
Everyone except the Brahmins in Tamilnadu and Andhra are Shudras. Yaswant and
Vijay will vouch for that. Any book of south Indian history will tell you that.
We dont have any Vysyas or Kshatriyas from north India. All south Indians are
Sat Shudras except the Brahmins.
>Bharathavas never claim any Kshatriya ancestry but you assume that
Arya Bharatha Kshatriya Kulam is their title.
yash...@my-dejanews.com
> In South India , in contrast to North, whoever was not Brahmin was
> considered Shudras. For example Nairs in Kerala are functional Kshatriyas,
> but ritual shudras. Merchant castes werw also Vaishyas functionally, but
> shudras ritually.
>
> A term Sat was also added to shudras as Satshudras, as good shudras who
> upheld the traditional order.
KRSReddy also wrote:
> Everyone except the Brahmins in Tamilnadu and Andhra are Shudras. Yaswant and
> Vijay will vouch for that. Any book of south Indian history will tell you
> that.
> We dont have any Vysyas or Kshatriyas from north India. All south Indians are
> Sat Shudras except the Brahmins.
It is true that this is the view held by many scholars. For example,
BraahmaNotpatti-MartanNDa generally takes this view. It is based on the
fact that most communities in South do not traditionally go through
the upaviita (sacred thread) ceremony. By this view most of
the Indians are sat-shudras (non-untouchable shudras)
However many scholars in the past have declared that Kshatriyas
and Vaishyas have ceased to exist. While it is an extreme view,
it has some historic basis. The rajputs are regarded to be good
Kshatriyas today, however we know that they earned the title
of "Rajput" (rajaputra) because they are descendants of kings,
and not necessarily because they are descendants of the ancient
Kshatriya clans (Ikshvaku or Yadu). We know for sure that some
Rajputs originated from Brahmins (hence they are called Rishi-kula).
Some were conferred the status through a special ritual (they
are called Agni-kula). We now know, with absolute certainty,
that the Rathores are the descendants of Rashtrakutas and Solankis
are descendants of Chaulukyas, the two well known houses in
the South.
There is a problem with the no-kshatriya-today view. We can
be sure that there are descendants of the ancient Kshatriyas,
although we don't know who they are. It is well-known that the
andhaka-vrishi clan of Lord Krisha is extinct, but that
does not mean that all Yadava clans are extinct. (Incidentally
aabhiira and yaadava are not the same).
It should be recognized that even when the four-fold division
was a reasonable description (when the dharma-shastras were
composed) there were many exceptions. Many did not fit any
of the four varNas. To account for them, the varna-sankara
concept was invented. That allowed even yavanas (Indo-Greeks)
and Turushkas (Turks like the Kushans) to be accomodated.
BrahmaNotpatti-maartaNDA describes creation of several
Brahmin communities from non-brahmins through intervention
of kings (mainly Lord Rama) and sages, even though most
are biological descendants of the sages. Many scholars
hold that one does not become a Brahmin by being the son
of a brahmin. See for example, the vajra-suchii upanishad:
http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=338980130&CONTEXT=914972076.1943863317&hitnum=0
Descent is not just biological, it can be through transmission
of values. An Indian today can claim to be a descendant of
the rishis or the ancient kings even if he has not a drop of
thier blood. And it is quite possible, the some individuals of
the lowest castes may actually have some noble blood.
The distinction among the four varnas is meaningless today,
since in effect they have merged. Many Brahmins earn money
by crafting things. Supposed Shudras defend India, and
one is the supreme commander. Some Vaishyas are well
known authors and many Kshatriyas earn a living through
industrial investments.
pallavan
>
> >You assumptions are wrong. Senguntha and Kai Kula Mudaliars are the same
> >people. Senguntha and Kai Kula people are one and the same in Sri Lanka.
>
> You are in the wrong NG.
How is this?
In Tamilnadu they are differant castes. After
> migrating to Sri lanka may be they intermarry.
You confuse all or yourself! They are same people and maintain different
identity. Still you are not telling the real history of the Kai Kula
and Senguntha people.
>
> >They came from Kanchipuram before the Chola period!
>
> They must be Sinhalese by now, not Tamils or Telugus so not covered by the
> caste system.
This may be your invention.... not supported by any reasons..
>
> >I think Senguntha or Kaikula people not reached SHUDRA level in TN. This
> >is your assumption or your personal idea!
>
> Everyone except the Brahmins in Tamilnadu and Andhra are Shudras. Yaswant and
> Vijay will vouch for that. Any book of south Indian history will tell you that.
> We dont have any Vysyas or Kshatriyas from north India. All south Indians are
> Sat Shudras except the Brahmins.
This is the trouble of Indian approach of history!
cha...@mindspring.com
pallavan <pall...@home.com> wrote:
>
> Kaikulavar is the corruption for Kai kula in Tamil. Sometime I found in
> Tamil Nadu They are called Kai Kolar. But the word Kai Kulavar means
> Kulavar( people of a kula) belongs to Kai. KAI = KHAI is not in the
> usage of Sanskrit or Tamil.
I looked up the relevant words in
Saiva SidhdhAntha Kazhagam Thamizh Agaraathi
published by
Saiva SidhdhAntha nUR pathippuk kazhagam,
154, TTK Road, chennai - 600 018.
first print: 1964; latest 1996.
[agarAthi = dictionary] and found the following:
The reference being a dictionary, it is obvious that page numbers
are not needed]
1. sengkuntham = spear coated with blood
[sem (red) + kuntham (spear)= seng kuntham ]
2. sengkunthar = kaikkOLar
[from 1: also wielder of bloody spear]
3. kaikkOLar = sengkunthar; a community of people engaged in weaving
profession (neythal thozhil cheyyum oru jAthiyAr) [note: kai = hand; kOLar =
those who wield ...]
4. muthali = muthalvan; thalaivan;periyOn;muthaliAr
[muthal = first]
that is:
muthali = the first one; leader; great man; muthaliAr.
5. sEnaimuthaliAr = kaikkOla jAthiyAr
[senai = army; muthaliAr = leader; so leader of army]
Now, from this one can conclude the following:
1. Sengunthar muthaliAr and kaikOLar muthaliAr are the same [2, 3 & 5]
2. They had premier position in the days of yore [muthali]
3. They held premier position in army [army leader = sEnai muthaliAr;
wielders of bloody spears = sengkunthar]
4. They were also engaged in weaving. It could be that they took this up after
change of status with royalty.It is also normal to see a traditional
occupation during the peace times.
chandra
Suesa12
>1. Sengunthar muthaliAr and kaikOLar muthaliAr are the same [2, 3 & 5]
>2. They had premier position in the days of yore [muthali]
>3. They held premier position in army [army leader = sEnai muthaliAr;
>wielders of bloody spears = sengkunthar]
>4. They were also engaged in weaving. It could be that they took this up
>after
>change of status with royalty.It is also normal to see a traditional
>occupation during the peace times.
>
>
>
>chandra
>
Still it doesnt make them ritual Kshatriyas, ritually after becoming Hindus all
non Brahmins of the south are Shudras.
Many castes have lent members to the army, service in the Army is hereditary in
some groups like Coorgis, Nairs in south india but they are all Shudras. People
can invent anything they want but the reality is south indian caste system was
superimposed on a basically a tribal and clan system.
Many tribes and clans fused into one castes and single tribes became many
castes during the course of time.
Many so called backward castes in Tamilnadu and Andhra for that matter whole of
India have caste stories which place them with the sun and the moon.
But basically everyone in south India including the present day Kaikollar and
Sengunthar are Shudras under the Hindu Varna system but many of them invent
stories to upgrade themselves in the general society eyes. This is been going
on for many many generations.
Many castes are common across the Indian states. For example Vellalar among
Tamils are called Vellama among Telugus. Supposedly they migrated to Andhra
during the Chola days. Further Velamaru is a land owning caste in Karnataka
again with similar caste stories. Vellama and Vellamaru claim Kshatriya
ancestry in these states because they were the "rulers" once upon a time which
is only partly true because probably they were Chola soldiers and officers in
the Army who choose to settle down in these countries. Very intereestingly
their parent population in Tamil nadu i.e Vellalar are still considered as
shudras.
Similarly any one who had remote connection to millitary service wants to claim
Kshatriya ancestry but most probably they ancestors were soldiers and officers
in those army not just Kings only.
These antiquated claims are not valid under ethnological, historical and
genetic studies. The Mudaliars of many origins are close to the Shudra Tamils
and Telugus that say the Rajputs of Rajasthan who themselves are not of Indian
Kshatriya ancestry but are Scythian immigrants into India.
It is easier to claim fallen Kshatriya ancestry than brahminhood because you
really do not have to have the knowledge of the vedas for that.
In a modern India these are nothing but nuisance value discussions because in
atleast in big cosmopolotan cities like Madras, Trich and Madurai a lot of
intermarriage between differant castes and religions and even races are taking
place. And I am sure notwithstanding these antiquated caste claims INDIA is
surely marching towards a casteless future.
Sutha
NB I belive your interpretaion of Kaikollar than say Khai Kola or Kshatriya
Kula like some one else tried before. These kind of word trickery has been goin
on Tamilnadu for a long time. Thank you Chandra for your deligent work
.
pallavan
>
> >Now, from this one can conclude the following:
> >1. Sengunthar muthaliAr and kaikOLar muthaliAr are the same [2, 3 & 5]
> >2. They had premier position in the days of yore [muthali]
> >3. They held premier position in army [army leader = sEnai muthaliAr;
> >wielders of bloody spears = sengkunthar]
> >4. They were also engaged in weaving. It could be that they took this up
> >after
> >change of status with royalty.It is also normal to see a traditional
> >occupation during the peace times.
> >
> >
> >
> >chandra
> >
>
> Still it doesnt make them ritual Kshatriyas, ritually after becoming Hindus all
> non Brahmins of the south are Shudras.
Why ? Who define this?
>
> Many castes have lent members to the army, service in the Army is hereditary in
> some groups like Coorgis, Nairs in south india but they are all Shudras. People
> can invent anything they want but the reality is south indian caste system was
> superimposed on a basically a tribal and clan system.
There is no invention here. He tells the tradition the Kai kula people
maintain for centuries. Others who have no claims for any thing like
Kaikolar not accepting the facts because of their present day economical
status!
>
> Many tribes and clans fused into one castes and single tribes became many
> castes during the course of time.
>
> Many so called backward castes in Tamilnadu and Andhra for that matter whole of
> India have caste stories which place them with the sun and the moon.
>
> But basically everyone in south India including the present day Kaikollar and
> Sengunthar are Shudras under the Hindu Varna system but many of them invent
> stories to upgrade themselves in the general society eyes. This is been going
> on for many many generations.
Again I tell you that no invention here. Many other castes who were not
like the Kaikula or Senguntha people are unable to grasp or accept the
past glory of Senguntha and Kaikula people.
Can you show any evidence to show that Kai Kula or Senguntha people are
SUDRA?
>
> Many castes are common across the Indian states. For example Vellalar among
> Tamils are called Vellama among Telugus. Supposedly they migrated to Andhra
> during the Chola days. Further Velamaru is a land owning caste in Karnataka
> again with similar caste stories. Vellama and Vellamaru claim Kshatriya
> ancestry in these states because they were the "rulers" once upon a time which
> is only partly true because probably they were Chola soldiers and officers in
> the Army who choose to settle down in these countries. Very intereestingly
> their parent population in Tamil nadu i.e Vellalar are still considered as
> shudras.
Vellalar are from Tamil country. Kaikula or Senguntha people were not
originated from Tamil Nadu! This is the first time I hear that Vellala
people involved in war bu this is not correct because allways the
Vellala people were colonised for farming in conqures areas.
>
> Similarly any one who had remote connection to millitary service wants to claim
> Kshatriya ancestry but most probably they ancestors were soldiers and officers
> in those army not just Kings only.
>
> These antiquated claims are not valid under ethnological, historical and
> genetic studies.
Have you any evidences to prove that Kaikula or Senguntha people are not
Kshatriyas?
The Mudaliars of many origins are close to the Shudra Tamils
> and Telugus that say the Rajputs of Rajasthan who themselves are not of Indian
> Kshatriya ancestry but are Scythian immigrants into India.
How did the Scythians become Kshatriyas in Hindu India?
Now many Muslimized north Indians try to show them they are superirior
to South Indians!
>
> It is easier to claim fallen Kshatriya ancestry than brahminhood because you
> really do not have to have the knowledge of the vedas for that.
Kshatriayas are not practising Brahmins! Further how many brahmins have
Vedic knowledge ?
>
> In a modern India these are nothing but nuisance value discussions because in
> atleast in big cosmopolotan cities like Madras, Trich and Madurai a lot of
> intermarriage between differant castes and religions and even races are taking
> place. And I am sure notwithstanding these antiquated caste claims INDIA is
> surely marching towards a casteless future.
>
> Sutha
>
> NB I belive your interpretaion of Kaikollar than say Khai Kola or Kshatriya
> Kula like some one else tried before. These kind of word trickery has been goin
> on Tamilnadu for a long time. Thank you Chandra for your deligent work
>
Word trickery! Amazing of your words!
Tamilization killed many evidences of history. But you personaly unable
to accept the explanations and you should know that facts are facts!
pallavan
of a group of people are unable to swallow the facts.
cha...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> In article <368664CC...@home.com>,
> pallavan <pall...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Kaikulavar is the corruption for Kai kula in Tamil. Sometime I found in
> > Tamil Nadu They are called Kai Kolar. But the word Kai Kulavar means
> > Kulavar( people of a kula) belongs to Kai. KAI = KHAI is not in the
> > usage of Sanskrit or Tamil.
>
> I looked up the relevant words in
> Saiva SidhdhAntha Kazhagam Thamizh Agaraathi
> published by
> Saiva SidhdhAntha nUR pathippuk kazhagam,
> 154, TTK Road, chennai - 600 018.
> first print: 1964; latest 1996.
>
> [agarAthi = dictionary] and found the following:
> The reference being a dictionary, it is obvious that page numbers
> are not needed]
>
> 1. sengkuntham = spear coated with blood
> [sem (red) + kuntham (spear)= seng kuntham ]
>
> 2. sengkunthar = kaikkOLar
> [from 1: also wielder of bloody spear]
>
> 3. kaikkOLar = sengkunthar; a community of people engaged in weaving
> profession (neythal thozhil cheyyum oru jAthiyAr) [note: kai = hand; kOLar =
> those who wield ...]
>
> 4. muthali = muthalvan; thalaivan;periyOn;muthaliAr
> [muthal = first]
> that is:
> muthali = the first one; leader; great man; muthaliAr.
>
> 5. sEnaimuthaliAr = kaikkOla jAthiyAr
> [senai = army; muthaliAr = leader; so leader of army]
>
> Now, from this one can conclude the following:
> 1. Sengunthar muthaliAr and kaikOLar muthaliAr are the same [2, 3 & 5]
> 2. They had premier position in the days of yore [muthali]
> 3. They held premier position in army [army leader = sEnai muthaliAr;
> wielders of bloody spears = sengkunthar]
> 4. They were also engaged in weaving. It could be that they took this up after
> change of status with royalty.It is also normal to see a traditional
> occupation during the peace times.
>
> chandra
>
> >
>
cha...@mindspring.com
sue...@aol.com (Suesa12) wrote:
> >Now, from this one can conclude the following:
> >1. Sengunthar muthaliAr and kaikOLar muthaliAr are the same [2, 3 & 5]
> >2. They had premier position in the days of yore [muthali]
> >3. They held premier position in army [army leader = sEnai muthaliAr;
> >wielders of bloody spears = sengkunthar]
> >4. They were also engaged in weaving. It could be that they took this up
> >after
> >change of status with royalty.It is also normal to see a traditional
> >occupation during the peace times.
> >
> >
> >
> >chandra
> >
>
all
> non Brahmins of the south are Shudras.
>
>
> But basically everyone in south India including the present day Kaikollar and
> Sengunthar are Shudras under the Hindu Varna system but many of them invent
> stories to upgrade themselves in the general society eyes. This is been going
> on for many many generations.
>
Misters whoever out there who is trying to establish that sungunthars
belonged to the kshatriya or trying to deny that and trying to place them and
any other non-brahmins as shudras, I have this to say:...
Frankly my dear...I don't give a damn!
I quoted just what Sengunthars were doing...
How that is to be viewed as very subjective...
certain communities performing janitorial work mainly
are doing that objectively and to classifiy them as low class
or high class is subjective...
anyone trying to or whoever tried to classify them low class
is *truly* low class objectively speaking (the objectivity based on
simple human decency).
I say this both to Pallavan and to his antagonists.
The role brahmins was previously undertaken by "andhaNas"
which was not hereditary but a qualification attained
on a dynamic basis. To wit:
the 2000-year old ThirukkuRaL, the Tamil classic on morals and ethics
applicable to all of humanity clearly states:
andhaNar enpOr aRavOr maRRevvuyirkkum
chendhaNmai pUNdozhuga lAn.
["They are andhaNas who treat other lives gently"].
Anyway I will post some excerpts from researchers in Indology
who have established that a whole lot of "brahmins" were
from potters who had preeminent status from Indus Valley
Civilization days.
Fro example,
Bhrugu rishi was a potter par excellence.
So "Bhargava" gothram is descended from either the potter
or anybody who revered the potter enough to undertake that
name! They also cite the connection of Agasthya and potters,
frequent association of epic characters with potters.
Take for example:
in Mahabharatam, teh pANdavas hiding at potter's house.
Generallly potters were leading craftsmen in those days
and had great respect as intellectuals.
Suesa12
Caste status is defined by the Brahmin priests in South India
. >There is no invention here. He tells the tradition the Kai kula people
>maintain for centuries. Others who have no claims for any thing like
>Kaikolar not accepting the facts because of their present day economical
>status!
Invention is part of human history if you dont want to belive in the nature of
human being then you are living in this world.
> unable to grasp or accept the
>past glory of Senguntha and Kaikula people.
No we dont have a problem with the past glory of any people except that with
the acceptance of Hinduism southerners became caste hindus, before that we did
not have castes.
>Can you show any evidence to show that Kai Kula or Senguntha people are
>SUDRA?
Hindu Varna system says so
>Vellalar are from Tamil country. Kaikula or Senguntha people were not
From Mars ?
> first time I hear that Vellala
>people involved in war bu this is not correct because allways the
>Vellala people were colonised for farming in conqures areas.
You have lot to learn about Tamils and others my friend. First time yoy hear
about Vellamas thats shows you have been reading only what you want to which is
anti-tamil propaganda literature.
>> Similarly any one who had remote connection to millitary service wants to
>claim
>> Kshatriya ancestry but most probably they ancestors were soldiers and
>officers
>> in those army not just Kings only.
>>
>> These antiquated claims are not valid under ethnological, historical and
>> genetic studies.
>
>Have you any evidences to prove that Kaikula or Senguntha people are not
>Kshatriyas?
Show me your evidence other than a covoluted claim that Khai stood for
Kshatriya like Parathavar says it stood for Bharathavas
he he he
>The Mudaliars of many origins are close to the Shudra Tamils
>> and Telugus that say the Rajputs of Rajasthan who themselves are not of
>Indian
>> Kshatriya ancestry but are Scythian immigrants into India.
>
>How did the Scythians become Kshatriyas in Hindu India?
Because the Brahmins made certain ceremonies where by they beacme Kshatriyas
although even today no one will accept them as bonafide Kshatriyas of vedic
days.
>Now many Muslimized north Indians try to show them they are superirior
>to South Indians!
What an idiotic proposition ! only a Sri lankan can make!
>> It is easier to claim fallen Kshatriya ancestry than brahminhood because
>you
>> really do not have to have the knowledge of the vedas for that.
>Kshatriayas are not practising Brahmins! Further how many brahmins have
>Vedic knowledge ?
You have no idea about India and caste system. If you are Ksahtriya you were
supposed to know the vedas like the Brahmins but if you are fallen one like
hundresds and thousands of castes in India claim then you really dont have to.
>> In a modern India these are nothing but nuisance value discussions because
>in
>> atleast in big cosmopolotan cities like Madras, Trich and Madurai a lot of
>> intermarriage between differant castes and religions and even races are
>taking
>> place. And I am sure notwithstanding these antiquated caste claims INDIA is
>> surely marching towards a casteless future.
>>
>> Sutha
>>
>> NB I belive your interpretaion of Kaikollar than say Khai Kola or Kshatriya
>> Kula like some one else tried before. These kind of word trickery has been
>goin
>> on Tamilnadu for a long time. Thank you Chandra for your deligent work
>>
>Word trickery! Amazing of your words!
Khai +Ksahtriya is an amazing word trickery like Karai = Kuru and Parathavar
=Bharath it is all Shudras looking for Kshatriya ancestry word trickery,
All the Nayakkar in Tamilnadu wear the Poonool saying that they are Kshatriyas
too. Amasingly many of their parent populations in Andhra are still malla,
madiga, kapu, kamma and reddy all Shudras.
>Tamilization killed many evidences of history. But you personaly unable
>to accept the explanations and you should know that facts are facts!
The fact is all South Indian did not have castes before the acceptance of
Hinduism after which almost all of them became shudras. If you want to live in
a dream world that you are Kshatriyas then go on!
Even all Sri lankans including the Bhuddhist ones are Shudras. Not a single
Ksahtriyas in Sri lanka. That shows all indian immigrants to your country
specially from North India were former slaves of the real Aryan Kshatriyas.
Thats why they accepted Buddhism readily and abandoned Hindu religion because
Buddhism gave them a better status than the Hindu religion of Prince Vijaya.
Suesa12
>of a group of people are unable to swallow the facts.
Are you saying then that Kai Kolar mean those who hold or work with their hands
?
Suesa12
>people involved in war bu this is not correct because allways the
>Vellala people were colonised for farming in conqures areas.
You are totally wrong shows your ignorance about Tamil nadu. Vellalar are from
many regions there are many articles about it in this NG, check the archives
Kongu Velalar are Kanada Gowdas
Tuluva Velalar are Tulu speaking immigrants
Cholia Velalar are Chola soldiers who were given land by the kings
Saiva Velalar are Shaivite farmers of southern Tamilnadu
Kudumi Velalars are anothe group of southern velalars
Tondaimandala Velalar are thoose who have Tamil telugu ancestry but farmers
Further Velalar is not a caste by itself, only lately it has become a caste.
Any one who cultivated was called velalar
After conquest soldiers were given land by the kings and soldiers came from
many castes , tribes and clans (like the present day Nayakkar) but after these
soldier took up cultivation they became Velalars which meant a cultivator.
The concept of Velalar is not some huge conspiracy to control others like you
make it sound. May be in your country it is a political issue but in Tamil nadu
many people have become velalar, similarly Mudaliar is also title that many
people have attained and made into caste titles.
pallavan
pallavan
Khai become Kai in Tamil. The undeveloped Tamil features make lot of
problems in decoding other laguages..
pallavan
>
> >Why ? Who define this?
>
> Caste status is defined by the Brahmin priests in South India
Who are they?
>
> . >There is no invention here. He tells the tradition the Kai kula people
> >maintain for centuries. Others who have no claims for any thing like
> >Kaikolar not accepting the facts because of their present day economical
> >status!
>
> Invention is part of human history if you dont want to belive in the nature of
> human being then you are living in this world.
Invention may be a part for some but not for everybody!
>
> > unable to grasp or accept the
> >past glory of Senguntha and Kaikula people.
>
> No we dont have a problem with the past glory of any people except that with
> the acceptance of Hinduism southerners became caste hindus, before that we did
> not have castes.
Before means when?
>
> >Can you show any evidence to show that Kai Kula or Senguntha people are
> >SUDRA?
>
> Hindu Varna system says so
Where?
>
> >Vellalar are from Tamil country. Kaikula or Senguntha people were not
>
> From Mars ?
Your head says so..
>
> > first time I hear that Vellala
> >people involved in war bu this is not correct because allways the
> >Vellala people were colonised for farming in conqures areas.
>
> You have lot to learn about Tamils and others my friend. First time yoy hear
> about Vellamas thats shows you have been reading only what you want to which is
> anti-tamil propaganda literature.
What is anti Tamil here?
>
>
> >> Similarly any one who had remote connection to millitary service wants to
> >claim
> >> Kshatriya ancestry but most probably they ancestors were soldiers and
> >officers
> >> in those army not just Kings only.
> >>
> >> These antiquated claims are not valid under ethnological, historical and
> >> genetic studies.
>
> >
> >Have you any evidences to prove that Kaikula or Senguntha people are not
> >Kshatriyas?
>
> Show me your evidence other than a covoluted claim that Khai stood for
> Kshatriya like Parathavar says it stood for Bharathavas
Read some Prakrit and then you will know..
>
> he he he
>
> >The Mudaliars of many origins are close to the Shudra Tamils
> >> and Telugus that say the Rajputs of Rajasthan who themselves are not of
> >Indian
> >> Kshatriya ancestry but are Scythian immigrants into India.
>
> >
> >How did the Scythians become Kshatriyas in Hindu India?
>
> Because the Brahmins made certain ceremonies where by they beacme Kshatriyas
> although even today no one will accept them as bonafide Kshatriyas of vedic
> days.
>
> >Now many Muslimized north Indians try to show them they are superirior
> >to South Indians!
>
> What an idiotic proposition ! only a Sri lankan can make!
>
What is your RAKSHA BANDAN? Is it not idiotic for hindus?
> >> It is easier to claim fallen Kshatriya ancestry than brahminhood because
> >you
> >> really do not have to have the knowledge of the vedas for that.
>
> >Kshatriayas are not practising Brahmins! Further how many brahmins have
> >Vedic knowledge ?
>
> You have no idea about India and caste system. If you are Ksahtriya you were
> supposed to know the vedas like the Brahmins but if you are fallen one like
> hundresds and thousands of castes in India claim then you really dont have to.
Are all the Brahmins know VEDAS?
>
> >> In a modern India these are nothing but nuisance value discussions because
> >in
> >> atleast in big cosmopolotan cities like Madras, Trich and Madurai a lot of
> >> intermarriage between differant castes and religions and even races are
> >taking
> >> place. And I am sure notwithstanding these antiquated caste claims INDIA is
> >> surely marching towards a casteless future.
> >>
> >> Sutha
> >>
> >> NB I belive your interpretaion of Kaikollar than say Khai Kola or Kshatriya
> >> Kula like some one else tried before. These kind of word trickery has been
> >goin
> >> on Tamilnadu for a long time. Thank you Chandra for your deligent work
> >>
>
> >Word trickery! Amazing of your words!
>
> Khai +Ksahtriya is an amazing word trickery like Karai = Kuru and Parathavar
I do not contest others word trickery but in the case of KAI KULA I will
make my findings.
> =Bharath it is all Shudras looking for Kshatriya ancestry word trickery,
>
> All the Nayakkar in Tamilnadu wear the Poonool saying that they are Kshatriyas
> too. Amasingly many of their parent populations in Andhra are still malla,
> madiga, kapu, kamma and reddy all Shudras.
>
> >Tamilization killed many evidences of history. But you personaly unable
> >to accept the explanations and you should know that facts are facts!
>
> The fact is all South Indian did not have castes before the acceptance of
> Hinduism after which almost all of them became shudras. If you want to live in
> a dream world that you are Kshatriyas then go on!
>
> Even all Sri lankans including the Bhuddhist ones are Shudras. Not a single
> Ksahtriyas in Sri lanka. That shows all indian immigrants to your country
> specially from North India were former slaves of the real Aryan Kshatriyas.
> Thats why they accepted Buddhism readily and abandoned Hindu religion because
> Buddhism gave them a better status than the Hindu religion of Prince Vijaya.
Your openions are not correct. Buddhism never accepted Brahmanical ideas
and Buddhism was supported by many Kshatriya clans. You have no evidence
to show this "slave" story.
Brahmanical India always tried to down grade Buddhist India. Can you
understand the Buddhist culture once florished all over India?
pallavan
Suesa12
So you accept that you were wrong in saying that all Vellalars are Tamil
country people. Good start.
If you check the State government of Tamilnadu list of Backward castes you will
see a list which includes over 20 vellalars subcastes including Devvendra Kulla
vellalar who might be related to the your Pallava Sengunthar because they say
they are Pallavas who were enslaved by the Cholas :-) so we are talking about
your relatives here :-)
Suesa12
>>
>> >Why ? Who define this?
>>
>> Caste status is defined by the Brahmin priests in South India
>
>Who are they?
Dont you know who they are :-)
>>
>> . >There is no invention here. He tells the tradition the Kai kula people
>> >maintain for centuries. Others who have no claims for any thing like
>> >Kaikolar not accepting the facts because of their present day economical
>> >status!
>>
>> Invention is part of human history if you dont want to belive in the nature
>of
>> human being then you are living in this world.
>
>Invention may be a part for some but not for everybody!
Just a selected few Kshatriyas who happen to fit your theory
>>
>> > unable to grasp or accept the
>> >past glory of Senguntha and Kaikula people.
>>
>> No we dont have a problem with the past glory of any people except that
>with
>> the acceptance of Hinduism southerners became caste hindus, before that we
>did
>> not have castes.
>Before means when?
Between 6th and 3rd century B.C Brahmins and Bhudhist/Jains have showed up in
S. India.
Hindu religion became preemminent only after the 7th -8 th century AD
>> >Can you show any evidence to show that Kai Kula or Senguntha people are
>> >SUDRA?
>>
>> Hindu Varna system says so
>Where?
All works of literature written in S India about castes and groups mention
that every one except the Brahmins are Shudras.
Even a basic book like the Plus 2 Tamil grammar book mentions that fact. Infact
I remember my Tamil Master pointing it out and saying guess who made every one
Shudras !
>>
>> >Vellalar are from Tamil country. Kaikula or Senguntha people were not
>>
>> From Mars ?
>
>Your head says so..
Then where my friend your head ?
>>
>> > first time I hear that Vellala
>> >people involved in war bu this is not correct because allways the
>> >Vellala people were colonised for farming in conqures areas.
>>
>> You have lot to learn about Tamils and others my friend. First time yoy
>hear
>> about Vellamas thats shows you have been reading only what you want to
>which is
>> anti-tamil propaganda literature.
>
>What is anti Tamil here?
Because you comment about Tamils without fully knowing about them. The fact
that you did not know about the Vellama and Velamaru which is basic reading
when you read about Vellalar shows that you read only anti-Tamil history
written by various authors for various political purposes, spefically in your
country Sri Lanka where there is an affort to discredit Tamil history even in
Tamil Nadu.
You guys have calimed even ancient Pandyas were Aryan immigarnts from North
India only because your prince Vijaya married a Pandyan wife. This is an effort
to tell all your country men that they dont have the inferior Tamil blood in
them because Vijaya married a Pandiyan princes because she is a superior Aryan
Pandiyan princess.
This is an effort to keep these communities apart and I see you as a person
doing that in the net under a Tamil name.
>>
>>
>> >> Similarly any one who had remote connection to millitary service wants
>to
>> >claim
>> >> Kshatriya ancestry but most probably they ancestors were soldiers and
>> >officers
>> >> in those army not just Kings only.
>> >>
>> >> These antiquated claims are not valid under ethnological, historical and
>> >> genetic studies.
>>
>> >
>> >Have you any evidences to prove that Kaikula or Senguntha people are not
>> >Kshatriyas?
>>
>> Show me your evidence other than a covoluted claim that Khai stood for
>> Kshatriya like Parathavar says it stood for Bharathavas
>
>
>Read some Prakrit and then you will know..
So you dont have evidence other than the covoluted word trickery
Which is what ?
>
>> =Bharath it is all Shudras looking for Kshatriya ancestry word trickery,
>>
>> All the Nayakkar in Tamilnadu wear the Poonool saying that they are
>Kshatriyas
>> too. Amasingly many of their parent populations in Andhra are still malla,
>> madiga, kapu, kamma and reddy all Shudras.
>>
>> >Tamilization killed many evidences of history. But you personaly unable
>> >to accept the explanations and you should know that facts are facts!
>>
>> The fact is all South Indian did not have castes before the acceptance of
>> Hinduism after which almost all of them became shudras. If you want to live
>in
>> a dream world that you are Kshatriyas then go on!
>>
>> Even all Sri lankans including the Bhuddhist ones are Shudras. Not a single
>> Ksahtriyas in Sri lanka. That shows all indian immigrants to your country
>> specially from North India were former slaves of the real Aryan Kshatriyas.
>> Thats why they accepted Buddhism readily and abandoned Hindu religion
>because
>> Buddhism gave them a better status than the Hindu religion of Prince
>Vijaya.
>
>Your openions are not correct. Buddhism never accepted Brahmanical ideas
>and Buddhism was supported by many Kshatriya clans. You have no evidence
>to show this "slave" story.
How come all Sri Lankan Sinhalese are Shudras and what is the definition of
Shudras in north India. If you are north Indian Shudras you were obviously the
projeny of Aryan masters and their enslaved indegenous women! isnt it.
It is very likely that when Prince Vijaya came to Sri Lanka he brough along a
lot of Shudra slaves with him because he was a prince for gods sake.
Thats why so called Aryans in Srilanka all became Shudras because Shudra
workers outnumbered the Vijayas clan from day one.
It is like the English colonist in America taking hundreds more Irish slaves
with them and with time the Irish outnumber the english 100:1 and every one
becames Irish.
The castes system is a like a Pyramid in actuality you can only have one King
and his family but hundreds of thousands of workers. But with time these
slavish workers claim kings ancestry because they want to be better than
others.
If you count all the decendants of Pallava king in present day TN they probably
make upto 25% of Tamil nadu population Ha Ha ha ha ha ha
The Pallava kings must have been prolific breeders. God for them.
>
>Brahmanical India always tried to down grade Buddhist India. Can you
>understand the Buddhist culture once florished all over India?
Tamils were Bhudhist and Jains before they became Hindus in large numbers that
does not make some of us Aryan Kshatriyas like you claim.
You have to remember Thais, Cambodeans, Malyas like Tamils were also subjected
to same three religions and even among Balinese there are people who claim
Trivamsa that is Arya Kshatriya, Arya Vysya, and Brahmidom among them but they
all look like regular Indonesians :-)
Suesa12
>
>Khai become Kai in Tamil. The undeveloped Tamil features make lot of
>problems in decoding other laguages..
Why that is not cceptable because it fits the Sri Lankan propaganda that Tamils
were civilized by the Aryan Bhudhist Kshatriyas from North India.
This where I see you throu gh, you want to find evidence in Tamil Nadu which
fits your theory
1) All Srilankan Buddhist are Arya Kshatriyas from N India when we know some
how you all became Shudras in Sri Lanka (very funny for Aryans because no real
Aryan can be a shudra :-))
2) Aryan Kshatriyas ruled Tamils because one of your Kings married a Tamil
girl, and you dont want to feel like that you have inferior Tamil blood in you
but actually Arya Kshatriya blood from Tamil Nadu in you
for these two reasons i find you accepting certain word trickery and rejecting
others.
pallavan
indian works on the subject but all the time you write some "Junction
talks". If you cannot find any thing useful, please do not respond to my
postings!
pallavan
Please quote some of those!
You are not correct here. What is the history of Pandians?
Pandians started their kigdom at the shores of river TAMIRA BHARANI( IS
this Tamil?). Vijaya started his life at the TAMPA PANNI in Sri Lanka.
Both places are at the opposite shores. How can you deny all these
facts. Sometime some south Indian historians mainly Brahmins may write
some jokes as history. There is no question of Aryan superiority or any
other but the real historical facts are covered under the curtain of
hatred and racist bias. I do not want to use any aryan superior theory
or supportng them.
Can you tell the meaning of the words CHERA, CHOLA or Pandiya?
Are you telling that the word MADURAI is pure Tamil word?
pallavan
Vellala catogory? I know they are PALLANS and very much close to the
VELLALA people. So, you do not want with the Vellalalans! Pallans are
pure Tamils like Vellala people.
Suesa12
>indian works on the subject but all the time you write some "Junction
>talks". If you cannot find any thing useful, please do not respond to my
>postings!
OK where is your source ? other than asking me to read no name Pali books.
Suesa12
>Vellala catogory? I know they are PALLANS and very much close to the
>VELLALA people. So, you do not want with the Vellalalans! Pallans are
>pure Tamils like Vellala people.
Pallar claim Pallava Kshatriya ancestry like Sengunthar how come you will not
support it.
You see in the old days when Kshatriyas were defeated in wars they were sold
into slavery too by the victorious side. If you can accept fallen Kshatriyas
becoming shudra weavers why cant you accept that could have become slaves too.
There are many instances of that in history a popular Hindu Purana narrates
whow a Kshatriya king became a Chandala! and lost his wife and child in a slave
auction !
Again My Sri lankan friend not all Velalar are of Tamil origin many have
Kannada, Telugu, Tulu origins too. So brush up on Tamil nadu history a little
more.
pallavan
CHOLAS by Nilakanta Sastry
MERCHANT WARRIORS
MAHA VAMSA
CHULA VAMSA
SKANDA PURANA by Kachchiyappa Sivachariyar
pallavan
Pallans do not understand the difference between the word PALLAN and
PALLAVAN. Theier education is so low. This is the way you guys try to
interpret the history of others...
Very soon you Indian Tamils will write history saying MK STALIN ruled
Russia.
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >Vellalar are not sengundas but why are you not claiming them in the
> >Vellala catogory? I know they are PALLANS and very much close to the
> >VELLALA people. So, you do not want with the Vellalalans! Pallans are
> >pure Tamils like Vellala people.
>
> Pallar claim Pallava Kshatriya ancestry like Sengunthar how come you will not
> support it.
>
> You see in the old days when Kshatriyas were defeated in wars they were sold
> into slavery too by the victorious side. If you can accept fallen Kshatriyas
> becoming shudra weavers why cant you accept that could have become slaves too.
Kailkula people never be sold to anyone.
Suesa12
>CHOLAS by Nilakanta Sastry
>
>MERCHANT WARRIORS
>
>MAHA VAMSA
>
>CHULA VAMSA
>
>SKANDA PURANA by Kachchiyappa Sivachariyar
Or these are researched published articles in some reputable archelogical
journals ha ?
Any one can create history, I view Maha Vamsa, Chula Vamsa, Skanda Purana as
pure fictional histories created for the sake of priviledged elites by
parasitic priests both Hindu and Buddhists. You have to take it with a grain of
salt when refereancing these as some kind of research material unless backed
up with concrete evidence. It is like using the Holy bible and the Holy Quran
as referance material in a research article:-)
I have read Cholas by Nilkanta Sastry he does not provide any proof either
arechological, gentical, mythological, linguistic proof that sengunthar are
Aryan Kshatriyas.
Merchant warriors ?
Suesa12
>Pallans do not understand the difference between the word PALLAN and
>PALLAVAN. Theier education is so low. This is the way you guys try to
>interpret the history of others...
They understood it enough to claim Pallava ancestry. I for one even grant that
to them. If you study the socio-economic relationship between Pallar and land
owning so called OBCs you will realize the importance given to Pallar shaman
and medicine men in cleanzing ceremonies and in purifieing land ceremonies.
Many reserchers have attributed the importance played by the Pallar in land
related ceromonies to their former ownership of the land. As such their claim
that they were the rightful owners of the lands in Tondai Mandalam and were
enslaved by the Cholas has some credance.
As a non Indian and as a Non Tamil you do not realize the social advance many
of these so called SC/ST made in Tamil Nadu during the last 50 years. There are
IAS officers, Engineers, Doctors, Merchants, Politicians as well as day
laborers among the Pallar. There are many novelists, historians and poets among
SC/ST too.
Your depiction of them as PALLANS shows the utter disregard you have for fellow
human beings, specially the indication that Sri Lankans treat Tamils as less
than humans or as an inferior race.
pallavan
claims. Pallan are Pallans. What is the disgrace here? This is the name
of their original ancestry. Becoming engineers and other professionals
has nothing to do with this subject.
Who are you to grant Pallans the ancestry of Pallavans? If so, are you
accepting the Pallans belong to Bharadwaja Gothram, a brahmanical clan?
Higher than Vellala?
How do you know that I am not a Tamil? Do you expect me to support a
criminal gang like LTTE to show my Tamilness?
pallavan
Suesa12
>claims.
Hatred towards whom my friend. You have hatred towards Tamils that we can see
through.
Pallan are Pallans. What is the disgrace here? This is the name
>of their original ancestry.
Why the "undeveloped nature of Tamil" like you said did not shorten the
original Pallavar into Pallar ? Only Kshatriya Kula can become Kaikula but
Pallavar cant become Pallar is it because it doesnot fit your Singalese
propaganda against Tamils ?
Becoming engineers and other professionals
>has nothing to do with this subject.
You said they are idiots so they want know the differance between Pallavan and
Pallar LOL
>
>Who are you to grant Pallans the ancestry of Pallavans?
Not me it is they who claim and many reserachers into SC/ST relationship with
OBC see that the SC/ST originaly owned the land and were forcibly taken from
them by the OBC in ancient times, that is going on even today in TN, where the
SC/ST are gradually loosing their lands to OBCs.
.
If so, are you
>accepting the Pallans belong to Bharadwaja Gothram, a brahmanical clan?
Your reading of Indian history is based on Skanda Purana, Mahavamsa etc. Thats
why you persist on Gothrams. Non -brahmins really dont have gothrams. Only
Brahmins have gothrams of any value based on history. Non Brahmins just pick
any gothrams as they wish to improve their social standings. Specially south
Indians are all ritually Shudras as such gothrams have no value.
Pallar were from the land of Pallavas originally, their kings could have come
from Brahmin families as it has happened in Indian history many times including
the later Maratha rulers were Brahmins. So to grant an entire group of people
the ancestry of the kings is unscientific and charletan.
>Higher than Vellala?
We call them Saiva Vellalas in Tamil Nadu and are a miniscule minority in TN
are Shudras and do not claim any convoluted Aryan ancestry like you do.
>
>How do you know that I am not a Tamil? Do you expect me to support a
>criminal gang like LTTE to show my Tamilness?
I dont support LTTE either but you have never made any referance or effort in
the NET to show the world the atrocities done on the Tamils in Sri Lanka. All
what you have done is anti-Tamil propaganda against their history even in Tamil
Nadu and then call castes like Karayan, Pallan, Vellalan, Theevan etc in the
net in a derogotary maner which shows that you are not a Tamil. But a person
who knows a little bit about Tamil history and uses it to undermine Tamils. So
long.
Suesa12
>
Where is it prooven that Sengunthar are Aryan Kshatriya Immigrants from North
India. Your history is based on gothrams, puranas, caste stories etc. So it
does not stand upto critical research. Just throwing a book title without
quoating page numbers and corroborating evidence in not scientic and is
"Junction Talk'' so long Pallava.
Suesa12
of Dr K Krishnaswamy
Pudhiya Thamizhakam Party (PT), meaning the new party of The Tamil Land, in
Tamil Nadu, the southern-most state of India with its coastline facing the Bay
of Bengal, didn't win a single seat in '98 elections.
However, this new outfit, launched by Dr Karupaa-samy Krishnaswamy, a Dalit
doctor, has sent alarm bells ringing among the major political parties of Tamil
Nadu by wrecking the chances of DMK Front in five constituencies at least.
This young Dalit doctor, impeccably dressed, looks every inch a company
executive than a militant leader. Is he a Kanshi Ram in the making or a
visionary?
Electoral politics is not the end for Dr Krishnaswamy. His goal is, he asserts:
"Liberation of the Dalits."
Dr Krishnaswamy would stop at nothing to achieve the goal he has set for his
party, and would not hesitate to exhort his colleagues and followers to hit
back at the oppressors with all their might.
Against the allegation of fomenting violence in the 'hitherto calm and peaceful
pockets of Southern Tamil Nadu, he says emphatically:
"...that is a complacent, even callous upper caste/middle class perception.
Everything will be calm so long as the oppressed meekly and mutely put up with
all the injustice meted out to them. When they rise in revolt, they are
denounced as violent law breakers...mark my words, I am for violently opposing
any form of oppression. Ours is a struggle for survival. But tell me, can you
point to a single instance wherein we have taken up arms, assaulted or harmed
any castemen other than those who have wronged us?"
He started his political life while in college as a member of the Naxalite
faction of the communists, whose progenitor was a Dalit- Charu Mazumdar, that
puts its faith in Marxism-Leninism-Mao Zedong Thought, and, suffered a jail
term under MISA, India's Preventive Detention Act. He explains his caste
oriented struggle thus,
"The Marxist Leninists had adopted wrong tactics to bring about social
transformation."
While traditional Naxalites didn't agree with the ideological line taken up by
Dr Krishnaswamy, they donot dispute his sincerity in fighting to fulfil the
aspirations of the Dalits. No one believes that the Doctor is a saleable to the
highest bidder.
He launched a move to forge a larger identity of the Dalits (the downtrodden).
Though of Pallar caste by birth, he organised the exetremely docile cobbler
community in the Coimbatore belt, his home town. But he had to abandon his
efforts following the wrath of Naidus and Gounders. Next he tried to organise
Dalit Panther organisation and failed due to strong caste feelings among the
different Dalit sects. So he fell back on Pallars of his own caste and floated
the 'Devendrakula Vellalar Federation' in the mid 80s.
The name of his organisation means descendants of God Devendra. This has given
them pride, self respect and dignity - socially trade related caste names carry
derogatory connotations .
"..Look. we are dealing with large masses of oppressed in the name of
caste...if, for them, social recognition comes from such honorific, why should
I stand in the way? I didn't invent the term, surely. But I have no qualms in
using it, to rally together my people,"
he says when asked about his caste claiming lineage from the gods.
Dr Krishnaswamy got his political baptism could be be effectively dated to the
date he sought justice for the Kodiyankulam Dalits who were subjected to
appalling atrocities by the local police. He also fought vigorously the case of
Pallars of Tirunelveli in their tussle against upper caste Thevars. Soon he
became the rallying point for the Dalits of the entire state of Tamil Nadu.
He challenged the DMK-TMC combine to win a reserved Assembly seat in '96
elections. Clashes between Thevars and Pallars erupted over a host of issues -
and the formidable doctor was there to guide the counter attacks.
"For the first time we started hitting back. The Thevars could not even stand
the naming of a transport corporation after a fold Dalit hero and set up on us
viciously. We retaliated and that was made out to be too violent a reaction,"
the doctor says with flashing eyes.
"Be it Jayalalitha or Karunanidhi, they want to uphold the status quo. But we
are not going to sacrifice our interests in order that only the upper castes
can live in peace."
His next step? Would he join hands with Dr Ramdas who has the Vanniar votes in
his pocket and is deeply concerned about Dalits?
"An alliance with Dr Ramdas is possible, perhaps desirable, but right now he is
in the BJP-AIADMK....that is outrageously Anti Dalit,"
he says with a mixture of anger and anguish.
Pudhiya Tamizhakam has sought to reach out to all Dalit sections, minorities
and the Most Backward Castes in the recent elections. He did poll muslim votes
and some of the Adi Dravida ( Pariah ) votes.
"...Gradually we will expand our base,"
says Dr Krishnaswamy.
Would he grow in stature by exploiting the poor Dalits like a number of Dalit
political bigwigs of the past and present?
Will he grow into another Kanshi Ram, or a real Messiah of the oppressed, only
time will tell.
Arson and killing don't make news anymore in southern Tamil Nadu
Peace has -- mostly -- returned to southern Tamil Nadu.
At least, so one hopes. And the essential tragedy of this entire thing is that
one is reduced to hoping.
Minor incidents remain the order of the day but so intense has been the
conflagration of before, that an arson here or a killing there does not make
news anymore. Because even a death or three is 'acceptable', or so the feeling
goes, when set against the situation of April through June this year, when
entire families were decimated, and entire villages evacuated to prevent
wholesale slaughter.
There is in the observer a sense of deja vu, to this sequence of disorder and
order. The 'Kodiyankulam incidents' of 1994, when scheduled caste villagers
were beaten up and their community wells poisoned allegedly by the backward
class thevars in collusion with the local police, witnessed a similar
escalation of violence, followed by an eerie calm.
At the center of these controversies, invariably, has been the desecration of a
statue -- either of the late Forward Bloc leader Mutthuramalinga Thevar, or of
B R Ambedkar. This year, as a minor departure from the norm, the clashes were
sparked by an ill-advised state government move to name a public transport
corporation after Sundaralingam, a patriotic local military commander of a
bygone era.
Such caste violence is not confined to the southern parts of the state -- the
northern districts have seen violence of equal virulence, between the local
scheduled caste communities and the backward class vanniars, through the
seventies. The 'Meenakshipuram conversions' of local harijans to Islam in the
early eighties -- a surefire spark for violence, one would have thought -- had
the ironic effect of actually checking the violence. Because for the first
time, the various subsets of Hindus suddenly woke to the realization that
continued violence could actually end up driving Hindus of whatever persuasion
into Islam's fold.
The current caste clashes in Tamil Nadu are a contemporary fallout of historic
developments. The intermittent caste clashes, spread out over three or four
decades, are also an expression of an evolving socio-economic cause getting
lost in its political attainments.
It's not without reason that the 'self-respect movement' of the Dravidian
parties succeeded in Tamil Nadu, and the Justice Party and its various
manifestations ruled the roost at the height of the socio-political churning of
the society. The nawab of Arcot giving away revenue collection rights to the
British East India Company in the mid-eighteenth century meant that a region
with no great kings or kingdoms came under the British rule. And along the way,
jobs-on-merit at the hands of the alien ruler meant equal opportunity for equal
talents in a race for the survival of the fittest.
If the Brahmin community, because of its better learning, benefited initially,
others did not lag behind. When education brought them social enlightenment,
the otherwise well-off upper caste non-Brahmin communities saw through the
social imbalances that had no political or economic justification. It needs
pointing out that the Justice Party and its predecessors were organizations of
non-Brahmin upper castes, mostly educated landed gentry, equal to the Brahmins
in education and more than equal to them in economic status, but always one
rung below the Brahmins in social hierarchy and acceptability.
If the need for societal spread made the non-brahmin movement adopt education
and employment as its 'equalizer-slogans', the attainment of this goal, first
with the formation of the Justice Party and more so with that party's coming to
power in the 1919 elections, made the movement itself near-redundant. The
Communal G O of 1921 and its later-day modifications, all formalizing and
legitimizing the non-Brahmin movement's demands for reservations in education
and employment, benefited only the non-Brahmin upper castes initially. The
intermediary castes and the harijans, the later-day backwards and the scheduled
castes respectively -- to whom education and hence, non-farming, formal
employment -- were alien, were left mostly untouched.
It was thus left to 'Periyar' E V Ramaswami Naicker to take the non-brahmin
movement to the masses, a decade and a half after Gandhi had succeeded in doing
so with the Congress movement. If the Justice Party could fill the political
vacuum and use its own presence to ensure equality in education and employment
for the non-Brahmin upper castes, 'Periyar' necessarily had to demythify the
social status of the brahmins drawn mainly from religious edicts.
In the absence of any political power that was available to his later day DMK
followers for enforcing their 'social will', Periyar's movement did lead to
stray violence against the brahmins. If it did not gain greater proportions, it
could be because at the time there was no political protection.
The violence did not stop, it merely changed shape and contour. Once the
'brahmin question' was settled, then naturally came the divisions within the
non-brahmin segments. The 'Periyar factor' and the post-Independence
socio-economic reforms, particularly during the chief ministership of the late
K Kamaraj. has since ensured the spread of education, economic well-being and
consequent social awareness among the lower strata of the non-brahmin segments.
If the stresses and strains in the northern districts involved the upper caste
mudaliars and the backward vanniars, the upper caste saiva vellalars were
mostly short-circuited in the south, largely thanks to their numerical
minority. With Kamaraj, as chief minister, over-throwing a brahminical Rajaji,
his native nadar community usurped the role, and was ranged against the
thevars, the other numerically strong, emotionally backward community in the
region.
Though that question by itself has not been 'satisfactorily settled', the
perceived political patronage that the thevar community got under the
Jayalalitha chief ministership between 1991 and 1996 meant that the target of
the scheduled castes in the region also remained as focused as that of the
thevars themselves. And the scheduled castes, emancipated by education, and
empowered by economic prosperity compared to their own past, is out to ensure
that it be heard.
For all this, however, untouchability as a social curse still exists in many
parts of Tamil Nadu. The victims are always the scheduled castes, but the
perpetrators are not the upper caste brahmins, but the intermediate castes,
like the thevars, nadars and vanniars. The latter class sees the educated and
emancipated scheduled caste communities vying with them for a share in the
socio-economic cake by way of employment opportunities and the like.
This, and the rampant urbanisation of the state at the cost of prosperous
agrarian economy, and the self-assertion -- at times bordering on
self-righteousnes -- by indignant sections of the scheduled caste, have all
made matters worse. The thevars of southern Tamil Nadu, for instance, have not
been able to accept the social assertiveness of the scheduled caste youth,
caused by education and enlightenment, and the latter's economic prosperity,
again caused by education and employment, many of them in urban centers and as
far away as the Gulf.
It's also true that proximity to the political power-center, namely the state
capital of Madras, made empowerment that much easier for the backwards first,
and the scheduled castes later, in northern Tamil Nadu. Even the non-Brahmin
movement of Justice Party vintage had its base among the traditionally
power-conscious mudaliars of the north rather than the saiva vellalars,
addressed as Pillais, of the south.
Though they haven't won political power through elections as yet -- the chances
of them doing it on their own is next to impossible in a caste-conscious state
-- the vanniars of the north have made a political success of their Pattali
Makkal Katchi, taking the socio-political baton from the mudaliars. As it is,
it is, only in the western districts that the dominance of the non-brahmin
upper castes in the socio-political milieu is perceptible.
Nearly a century after the birth of the non-brahmin movement, Tamil Nadu is
still a society in transition. Surviving political identities notwithstanding,
the movement by itself has outlived its utility, what with the attainment of
political power by the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam, and the achievements on the
socio-economic front by Kamaraj, Karunanidhi and MGR in the last 40-plus years.
The Dravidian parties have lost their social moorings and purpose, as the
Brahmin Jayalalitha's ready acceptance as leader of the AIADMK would show.
Only, all that has happened before the social agenda of the scheduled castes
could be fulfilled.
Gandhi united the various untouchable communities in the country by addressing
them as 'harijans'. It is yet surprising that the recent events in southern
Tamil Nadu have made a ready acceptance of the Hindi term 'dalit' possible
among the scheduled castes of the state, despite its traditional anti-Hindi
sentiments. The parayars of the northern districts and the pallars of the
southern districts, who have been mutually distancing each other, have now come
back under a common tag.
The absence of a credible dalit political leadership -- the northern districts
gave up the search long back, and the southern districts are alternating
between the politically ambitious Dr S Krishnaswamy, heading the Devendra Kula
Vellalar Sangam, and the venom-spitting militant leader John Pandian -- is at
the heart of peripheral interest groups taking a pot-shot at the dalit
communities in the state. And of their frustrated youth, in turn, showing a
preference for the law of the jungle rather than the rule of law.
pallavan
other stories. Just you cannot say that all puranic stries are not true.
First you try to read some books and I will tell you the pages.
pallavan
he has Pallava ancestry. Your hatres towards Sinhalese is the reason for
your reply.
If the Pallava become Palla is a trouble in the Tamil Language. This is
not known to any Sinhalese. First time you have invented some new racial
propaganda here. Further you are relied mainly on " Junction talks"
rather than any scientific ones.
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >You tell nothing here but some hatered towards some others to prove your
> >claims.
>
> Hatred towards whom my friend. You have hatred towards Tamils that we can see
> through.
>
> Pallan are Pallans. What is the disgrace here? This is the name
> >of their original ancestry.
>
> Why the "undeveloped nature of Tamil" like you said did not shorten the
> original Pallavar into Pallar ? Only Kshatriya Kula can become Kaikula but
> Pallavar cant become Pallar is it because it doesnot fit your Singalese
> propaganda against Tamils ?
>
> Becoming engineers and other professionals
> >has nothing to do with this subject.
>
> You said they are idiots so they want know the differance between Pallavan and
> Pallar LOL
India has lot of idiots. Every body knows that.
>
> >
> >Who are you to grant Pallans the ancestry of Pallavans?
>
> Not me it is they who claim and many reserachers into SC/ST relationship with
> OBC see that the SC/ST originaly owned the land and were forcibly taken from
> them by the OBC in ancient times, that is going on even today in TN, where the
> SC/ST are gradually loosing their lands to OBCs.
So, you say that the real land owners are different people.
> If so, are you
> >accepting the Pallans belong to Bharadwaja Gothram, a brahmanical clan?
>
> Your reading of Indian history is based on Skanda Purana, Mahavamsa etc. Thats
> why you persist on Gothrams. Non -brahmins really dont have gothrams. Only
> Brahmins have gothrams of any value based on history. Non Brahmins just pick
> any gothrams as they wish to improve their social standings. Specially south
> Indians are all ritually Shudras as such gothrams have no value.
>
> Pallar were from the land of Pallavas originally, their kings could have come
Pallavans ruled not only Pallans but all the others too. Your Tamils
have some idiotic equations to prove something which are not concern for
them.
This is your Tamil so called WORD TRICKKERY.
> from Brahmin families as it has happened in Indian history many times including
> the later Maratha rulers were Brahmins. So to grant an entire group of people
> the ancestry of the kings is unscientific and charletan.
>
> >Higher than Vellala?
>
> We call them Saiva Vellalas in Tamil Nadu and are a miniscule minority in TN
> are Shudras and do not claim any convoluted Aryan ancestry like you do.
Who said Vellalas are Kshatriyas? All the Vellala people are Shudras.
>
> >
> >How do you know that I am not a Tamil? Do you expect me to support a
> >criminal gang like LTTE to show my Tamilness?
>
> I dont support LTTE either but you have never made any referance or effort in
> the NET to show the world the atrocities done on the Tamils in Sri Lanka. All
> what you have done is anti-Tamil propaganda against their history even in Tamil
> Nadu and then call castes like Karayan, Pallan, Vellalan, Theevan etc in the
> net in a derogotary maner which shows that you are not a Tamil. But a person
> who knows a little bit about Tamil history and uses it to undermine Tamils. So
> long.
Why cannot you come in yor original Tamil name if you are a Tamil?
I think you are a Sri lankan tamil barking for LTTE in some other names!
Suesa12
>other stories. Just you cannot say that all puranic stries are not true.
Purann stories are like reading the bible or quran based on some facts but
embellished to appeal to some, king, clan or people. So you have to take it
with apinch of salt.
>First you try to read some books and I will tell you the pages.
Because there is no evidence that you can present. I have read enough research
articles to know that you are a "junction Talk" charletan.
Suesa12
>he has Pallava ancestry. Your hatres towards Sinhalese is the reason for
>your reply.
Finnally your true colors are coming out why will I hate sinhalese when all
what you do is call all Tamil history fabricated and only Sri Lanka history is
true.
>If the Pallava become Palla is a trouble in the Tamil Language.
Why is that a trouble, Maruvuthal is a nature of all languages. No words stay
the same way for any length of time. Only when Tamil words change then
1) Tamil language has problems
2) Tamil language is undeveloped
Why the very reason you speak Sinhala versus Sanscrit is due to the resaon that
languages changed.
May it a problem with your language thats why you speak Sinhala
This is
>not known to any Sinhalese. First time you have invented some new racial
>propaganda here.
What racial propaganda
1) I resent that a Sri Lankan sinhalese tells Indian tamils that some of us are
not Tamils but related to somebody else even calling Anna as Pallava Kshatriya
so that we dont have any self esteem.
2) I have seen enough articles in your papers
"Disproving Tamil claims of antiquity to territory"
by Gamini Iriyagolle
where he calims that Prince Vijaya actually married an Aryan panyan princes
from Mathurai not a Tamil princes so Sinhalese have no impure Tamil blood. So I
have seen your propaganda and you are doing that on the NET for them. This what
your friend says about Pandiyans
"It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence, that
from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves as
the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U. Deraniyagala
in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747"
Now learn how to quote evidence than to throw it in mid conversation. I trying
to see how learned you are. You have read a bunch of books. But very
selectively and hapazardly and you have formed a theory in your mind, but you
dont have any scietific prooff other than anecdotal proof from puranas and
other caste embelishment books.
>> Becoming engineers and other professionals
>> >has nothing to do with this subject.
>>
>> You said they are idiots so they want know the differance between Pallavan
>and
>> Pallar LOL
>
>India has lot of idiots. Every body knows that.
Oh Sri lankan sinhalese dont have a lot of idiots ha thats why all your women
wash bathrooms in the middle east.
>>
>> >
>> >Who are you to grant Pallans the ancestry of Pallavans?
>>
>> Not me it is they who claim and many reserachers into SC/ST relationship
>with
>> OBC see that the SC/ST originaly owned the land and were forcibly taken
>from
>> them by the OBC in ancient times, that is going on even today in TN, where
>the
>> SC/ST are gradually loosing their lands to OBCs.
>
>So, you say that the real land owners are different people.
Every one owned land except after the formation of castes those who found
themselves at the bottom lost out more than others.
>> If so, are you
>> >accepting the Pallans belong to Bharadwaja Gothram, a brahmanical clan?
>>
>> Your reading of Indian history is based on Skanda Purana, Mahavamsa etc.
>Thats
>> why you persist on Gothrams. Non -brahmins really dont have gothrams. Only
>> Brahmins have gothrams of any value based on history. Non Brahmins just
>pick
>> any gothrams as they wish to improve their social standings. Specially
>south
>> Indians are all ritually Shudras as such gothrams have no value.
>>
>> Pallar were from the land of Pallavas originally, their kings could have
>come
>
>Pallavans ruled not only Pallans but all the others too. Your Tamils
>have some idiotic equations to prove something which are not concern for
>them.
So you are not a idiotic Tamil case in point that I have been making. You use a
Tamil name to discredit Tamils in the NET.
>This is your Tamil so called WORD TRICKKERY.
>
>> from Brahmin families as it has happened in Indian history many times
>including
>> the later Maratha rulers were Brahmins. So to grant an entire group of
>people
>> the ancestry of the kings is unscientific and charletan.
>>
>> >Higher than Vellala?
>>
>> We call them Saiva Vellalas in Tamil Nadu and are a miniscule minority in
>TN
>> are Shudras and do not claim any convoluted Aryan ancestry like you do.
>
>Who said Vellalas are Kshatriyas? All the Vellala people are Shudras.
Why do you have a hoery from the Purans for that too. Velamaru would like a dis
agree with you.
>>
>> >
>> >How do you know that I am not a Tamil? Do you expect me to support a
>> >criminal gang like LTTE to show my Tamilness?
>>
>> I dont support LTTE either but you have never made any referance or effort
>in
>> the NET to show the world the atrocities done on the Tamils in Sri Lanka.
>All
>> what you have done is anti-Tamil propaganda against their history even in
>Tamil
>> Nadu and then call castes like Karayan, Pallan, Vellalan, Theevan etc in
>the
>> net in a derogotary maner which shows that you are not a Tamil. But a
>person
>> who knows a little bit about Tamil history and uses it to undermine Tamils.
>So
>> long.
>
>Why cannot you come in yor original Tamil name if you are a Tamil?
>
>I think you are a Sri lankan tamil barking for LTTE in some other names!
What ever mr. Pallava from Sri lanakan, if I am LTTE then you a goon in the
Army who rapes teenage Tamil girls.
pallavan
are not an exception.
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >Pallar and Pallavan is not a Sinhala issue. No Sinhala Muthali know that
> >he has Pallava ancestry. Your hatres towards Sinhalese is the reason for
> >your reply.
>
> Finnally your true colors are coming out why will I hate sinhalese when all
> what you do is call all Tamil history fabricated and only Sri Lanka history is
> true.
Maha vamsa of Sri lanka is accepted as it contain more historical facts
by good scholors.
You are so jealous of Senguntha or Kai Kula people. You were unable to
accept the facts and try to make some tom foolery here. Your haterd
towards other castes in Tamil Nadu never help you or any other to
understand a true history of your own.
>
> >If the Pallava become Palla is a trouble in the Tamil Language.
>
> Why is that a trouble, Maruvuthal is a nature of all languages.
Maruvuthal is the problem. So, we must try to find out the original
words and original language to find out the historical issues. No
sensible person will accept any "MARUVUTHAL" word as true.
I wrote earlier that how a HAMILTON BRIDGE in Tamil nadu became BARBER
BRIDGE. You fellows will write history of the bridge as Dalit Barbers
built the bridge.
No words stay
> the same way for any length of time. Only when Tamil words change then
>
> 1) Tamil language has problems
> 2) Tamil language is undeveloped
>
> Why the very reason you speak Sinhala versus Sanscrit is due to the resaon that
> languages changed.
I di not speak Sinhala. this is your invention. I think your you feel
all the Sri Lankans are Sinhalese.
>
> May it a problem with your language thats why you speak Sinhala
>
> This is
> >not known to any Sinhalese. First time you have invented some new racial
> >propaganda here.
>
> What racial propaganda
>
> 1) I resent that a Sri Lankan sinhalese tells Indian tamils that some of us are
> not Tamils but related to somebody else even calling Anna as Pallava Kshatriya
> so that we dont have any self esteem.
You can have selfesteem if you are honest. You try to equate Pallan
with Pallavan. This is itself a demo. of people who have no self esteem.
Yes! Arignar Anna belong to the Kai Kula community of Kanchipuram.
Tamilaization was occured since the 3AD and the Kaikula clans became
Tamils now.
Many cleaners in Sri lanka came from Tamil Nadu. Even in Canada Sri
Lankan tamils are good cleaners and dish washers not like beggers in
tamil Nadu.
The word PALLAVA is still in question... This is not a Tamil word.
pallavan
>
> >You did not read anything but boasting!
> >
>
> Where is it prooven that Sengunthar are Aryan Kshatriya Immigrants from North
> India. Your history is based on gothrams, puranas, caste stories etc. So it
> does not stand upto critical research. Just throwing a book title without
> quoating page numbers and corroborating evidence in not scientic and is
> "Junction Talk'' so long Pallava.
>
>
Do some research in Gothrams.
If you really intelligent and read those books you do not need page
numbers.
Your Scintific invention
Pallavan = Pallan.
Ha ha ha
pallavan
>
> >First you should know the Indian history which is based on Puranas and
> >other stories. Just you cannot say that all puranic stries are not true.
>
> Purann stories are like reading the bible or quran based on some facts but
> embellished to appeal to some, king, clan or people. So you have to take it
> with apinch of salt.
But your theory of Pallan and Pallavan is worse than any Puranic
stories.
>
> >First you try to read some books and I will tell you the pages.
>
> Because there is no evidence that you can present. I have read enough research
> articles to know that you are a "junction Talk" charletan.
Again I tell you to read the books carefully.
pallavan
???????????
Moddaikum Mulankalukkum?
pallavan
>
> >You tell nothing here but some hatered towards some others to prove your
> >claims.
>
> Hatred towards whom my friend. You have hatred towards Tamils that we can see
> through.
New invention... A tamil group claims pallava ancestry is hatered
towards Tamil...
>
> Pallan are Pallans. What is the disgrace here? This is the name
> >of their original ancestry.
>
> Why the "undeveloped nature of Tamil" like you said did not shorten the
> original Pallavar into Pallar ?
This is your Tamil twist...
Only Kshatriya Kula can become Kaikula but
> Pallavar cant become Pallar is it because it doesnot fit your Singalese
> propaganda against Tamils ?
What is the Sinhalese propaganda here? But you are not tolerating the
claims of Senguntha or Kaikula people with Pallava royals.
>
> Becoming engineers and other professionals
> >has nothing to do with this subject.
>
> You said they are idiots so they want know the differance between Pallavan and
> Pallar LOL
>
> >
> >Who are you to grant Pallans the ancestry of Pallavans?
>
> Not me it is they who claim and many reserachers into SC/ST relationship with
> OBC see that the SC/ST originaly owned the land and were forcibly taken from
> them by the OBC in ancient times, that is going on even today in TN, where the
> SC/ST are gradually loosing their lands to OBCs.
> .
> If so, are you
> >accepting the Pallans belong to Bharadwaja Gothram, a brahmanical clan?
>
> Your reading of Indian history is based on Skanda Purana, Mahavamsa etc. Thats
> why you persist on Gothrams. Non -brahmins really dont have gothrams.
Kshatriyas evolved from the Brahmins and they too have Gothrams.
Only
> Brahmins have gothrams of any value based on history. Non Brahmins just pick
> any gothrams as they wish to improve their social standings. Specially south
> Indians are all ritually Shudras as such gothrams have no value.
>
> Pallar were from the land of Pallavas originally, their kings could have come
> from Brahmin families as it has happened in Indian history many times including
> the later Maratha rulers were Brahmins. So to grant an entire group of people
> the ancestry of the kings is unscientific and charletan.
>
> >Higher than Vellala?
>
> We call them Saiva Vellalas in Tamil Nadu and are a miniscule minority in TN
> are Shudras and do not claim any convoluted Aryan ancestry like you do.
Vellalan or Pallan cant claim any Aryan ancestry but the people of
Nanthi Gothram have all the rights and evidences to claim Aryan
ancestry.
>
> >
> >How do you know that I am not a Tamil? Do you expect me to support a
> >criminal gang like LTTE to show my Tamilness?
>
> I dont support LTTE either but you have never made any referance or effort in
> the NET to show the world the atrocities done on the Tamils in Sri Lanka.
Are you aware of the atrocities done by the Tamil Terrorist groups in
the name of Tamil Eelam?
Nedumaran and Ramadas &co make some money and popularity through talking
for Sri Lankan Tamils.
All
> what you have done is anti-Tamil propaganda against their history even in Tamil
> Nadu and then call castes like Karayan, Pallan, Vellalan, Theevan etc in the
> net in a derogotary maner which shows that you are not a Tamil.
I write Karayan or Pallan because it is their clanical name. How can you
say this is bad?
But a person
> who knows a little bit about Tamil history and uses it to undermine Tamils. So
> long.
I know better than you of your Tamil history.
I asked you the meaning of Chera, Chola and Pandiya but you never reply.
I asked you to explain TAMIRA BHARANI and TAMPA PANNI.
Why are you silent?
So, you tell that who ever Tamil involved in frauds must be respected in
the name of Tamil?
pallavan
>
> >This is your Tamil nadu problem...
> >Pallans do not understand the difference between the word PALLAN and
> >PALLAVAN. Theier education is so low. This is the way you guys try to
> >interpret the history of others...
>
> They understood it enough to claim Pallava ancestry. I for one even grant that
> to them. If you study the socio-economic relationship between Pallar and land
> owning so called OBCs you will realize the importance given to Pallar shaman
> and medicine men in cleanzing ceremonies and in purifieing land ceremonies.
This may be right. The Pallans are slaves of the land owners.
>
> Many reserchers have attributed the importance played by the Pallar in land
> related ceromonies to their former ownership of the land. As such their claim
> that they were the rightful owners of the lands in Tondai Mandalam and were
> enslaved by the Cholas has some credance.
>
> As a non Indian and as a Non Tamil you do not realize the social advance many
> of these so called SC/ST made in Tamil Nadu during the last 50 years. There are
> IAS officers, Engineers, Doctors, Merchants, Politicians as well as day
> laborers among the Pallar. There are many novelists, historians and poets among
> SC/ST too.
This does not mean that these Pallans are Pallavans.
>
> Your depiction of them as PALLANS shows the utter disregard you have for fellow
> human beings, specially the indication that Sri Lankans treat Tamils as less
> than humans or as an inferior race.
Goundan is called Goundan. Muthaliar is called Muthaliar. Why cannot
Pallan is called Pallan?
Are Tamils in Tamil nadu traet all Tamils equal? Look at the Tamils who
came to tamil Nadu under the Srima- Shastri pact, are now slaves. No
body take care of them. Every Tamil politician or groups try to use
them.
First you try to correct your HOUSE in order!
pallavan
>
> >Read
> >CHOLAS by Nilakanta Sastry
> >
> >MERCHANT WARRIORS
> >
> >MAHA VAMSA
> >
> >CHULA VAMSA
> >
> >SKANDA PURANA by Kachchiyappa Sivachariyar
>
> Or these are researched published articles in some reputable archelogical
> journals ha ?
Yes!
>
> Any one can create history, I view Maha Vamsa, Chula Vamsa, Skanda Purana as
> pure fictional histories created for the sake of priviledged elites by
> parasitic priests both Hindu and Buddhists.
You never see Maha vamsa which is respected by many universities in
India to find out many inormation about Indian history.
You have to take it with a grain of
> salt when refereancing these as some kind of research material unless backed
> up with concrete evidence. It is like using the Holy bible and the Holy Quran
> as referance material in a research article:-)
>
> I have read Cholas by Nilkanta Sastry he does not provide any proof either
> arechological, gentical, mythological, linguistic proof that sengunthar are
> Aryan Kshatriyas.
Read it again!
>
> Merchant warriors ?
pallavan
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >Vellalar are not sengundas but why are you not claiming them in the
> >Vellala catogory? I know they are PALLANS and very much close to the
> >VELLALA people. So, you do not want with the Vellalalans! Pallans are
> >pure Tamils like Vellala people.
>
> Pallar claim Pallava Kshatriya ancestry like Sengunthar how come you will not
> support it.
Pallans who are historically slaves to the land owning castes and they
too claimed a semi Vellala idntity i.e Devendra Kula Vellala but now
only they found a word PALLAVAN is available and started to claim that
as theirs. You must know the origin of the word Pallava is still in
dispute.
>
> You see in the old days when Kshatriyas were defeated in wars they were sold
> into slavery too by the victorious side. If you can accept fallen Kshatriyas
> becoming shudra weavers why cant you accept that could have become slaves too.
Suesa12
>
Is that Malayalam ? :-)
The following article was to be a eye opener for you to show that in Tamil Nadu
Saiva Vellalar are a miniscule minority not taking part in any political
activity or in oppressing any one or accepting others titles like Mudaliar.
Your Hatred towards Vellalars is based on your Sinhala experience with Sri
Lankan Vellalar who are a dominant caste in Sri Lanka.
In Tamil nadu it is Mudaliar then other OBC 's who dominate. Saiva Vellalars
are almost extinct caste.
>Suesa12 wrote:
>>
>> RADICAL PRESCRIPTIONS
>> of Dr K Krishnaswamy
Read this article you will understand how misplaced your hatred towards
Vellalar and them appropriating others titles is.
Suesa12
Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
by Gamini Iriyagolle
It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence, that
from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves as
the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U. Deraniyagala
in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747.
After the Aryan clans seized power, the developments in Sri Lanka and in the
Pandya country were different. In Sri Lanka the Aryans, who were called
Sinhalese, assimilated the indigenous inhabitants and all later immigrants
until their hydraulic civilisation decayed and collapsed in the dry zone. In
South India the Aryan ruling class became Tamilized, though the Dravidian
speakers themselves had been aryanized to a significant degree. "History begins
in the South of India as in the North with the advent of Aryans" (Nilakanta
Sastri. op. cit.p.64).
Lot of Tamils in Tamil Nadu fall for this crap wanting to be north Indian
Aryans. Justice Party and DK were founded by Mudaliar who knew the truth.
Suesa12
Suesa12
Suesa12
Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
by Gamini Iriyagolle
Founders of Justice Party and DK are Mudalairs who did not fall for this crap.
Suesa12
Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
by Gamini Iriyagolle
It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence, that
from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves as
the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U. Deraniyagala
in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747.
After the Aryan clans seized power, the developments in Sri Lanka and in the
Pandya country were different. In Sri Lanka the Aryans, who were called
Sinhalese, assimilated the indigenous inhabitants and all later immigrants
until their hydraulic civilisation decayed and collapsed in the dry zone. In
South India the Aryan ruling class became Tamilized, though the Dravidian
speakers themselves had been aryanized to a significant degree. "History begins
in the South of India as in the North with the advent of Aryans" (Nilakanta
Sastri. op. cit.p.64).
Lot of Tamils in Tamil Nadu fall for this crap but the founders of Justice
Party and DK, DMK are Mudaliars who did not fall for this crap.
Suesa12
Suesa12
Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
by Gamini Iriyagolle
It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence, that
from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves as
the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U. Deraniyagala
in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747.
After the Aryan clans seized power, the developments in Sri Lanka and in the
Pandya country were different. In Sri Lanka the Aryans, who were called
Sinhalese, assimilated the indigenous inhabitants and all later immigrants
until their hydraulic civilisation decayed and collapsed in the dry zone. In
South India the Aryan ruling class became Tamilized, though the Dravidian
speakers themselves had been aryanized to a significant degree. "History begins
in the South of India as in the North with the advent of Aryans" (Nilakanta
Sastri. op. cit.p.64).
Founders of DK and DMK are mudaliars who did not fall for this crap.
pallavan
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >Moddaikum Mulankalukkum?
> >
>
> Is that Malayalam ? :-)
>
> The following article was to be a eye opener for you to show that in Tamil Nadu
> Saiva Vellalar are a miniscule minority not taking part in any political
> activity or in oppressing any one or accepting others titles like Mudaliar.
>
> Your Hatred towards Vellalars is based on your Sinhala experience with Sri
> Lankan Vellalar who are a dominant caste in Sri Lanka.
>
> In Tamil nadu it is Mudaliar then other OBC 's who dominate. Saiva Vellalars
> are almost extinct caste.
>
> >Suesa12 wrote:
> >>
> >> RADICAL PRESCRIPTIONS
> >> of Dr K Krishnaswamy
>
pallavan
Pallavan theory...
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> Bottom line this is what you are doing for the Sri Lankans in the NET.
>
> Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
> by Gamini Iriyagolle
>
> It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence, that
> from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
> Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves as
> the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U. Deraniyagala
> in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747.
> After the Aryan clans seized power, the developments in Sri Lanka and in the
> Pandya country were different. In Sri Lanka the Aryans, who were called
> Sinhalese, assimilated the indigenous inhabitants and all later immigrants
> until their hydraulic civilisation decayed and collapsed in the dry zone. In
> South India the Aryan ruling class became Tamilized, though the Dravidian
> speakers themselves had been aryanized to a significant degree. "History begins
> in the South of India as in the North with the advent of Aryans" (Nilakanta
> Sastri. op. cit.p.64).
>
pallavan
>
> Bottom line this is what you are doing for the Sri Lankans in the NET.
>
> Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
> by Gamini Iriyagolle
>
> It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence, that
> from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
> Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves as
> the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U. Deraniyagala
> in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747.
> After the Aryan clans seized power, the developments in Sri Lanka and in the
> Pandya country were different. In Sri Lanka the Aryans, who were called
> Sinhalese, assimilated the indigenous inhabitants and all later immigrants
> until their hydraulic civilisation decayed and collapsed in the dry zone. In
> South India the Aryan ruling class became Tamilized, though the Dravidian
> speakers themselves had been aryanized to a significant degree. "History begins
> in the South of India as in the North with the advent of Aryans" (Nilakanta
> Sastri. op. cit.p.64).
>
Because of their Tamilization wanted a different ID.
pallavan
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> Bottomline this is what you are doing on the NET for the Sinhalese.
>
> Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
> by Gamini Iriyagolle
>
> It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence, that
> from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
> Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves as
> the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U. Deraniyagala
> in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747.
> After the Aryan clans seized power, the developments in Sri Lanka and in the
> Pandya country were different. In Sri Lanka the Aryans, who were called
> Sinhalese, assimilated the indigenous inhabitants and all later immigrants
> until their hydraulic civilisation decayed and collapsed in the dry zone. In
> South India the Aryan ruling class became Tamilized, though the Dravidian
> speakers themselves had been aryanized to a significant degree. "History begins
> in the South of India as in the North with the advent of Aryans" (Nilakanta
> Sastri. op. cit.p.64).
>
> Founders of DK and DMK are mudaliars who did not fall for this crap.
Suesa12
I did not say Pallar are from Pallavas only you said Kaikular are Kshatriya
Kula.
All what I said is if Kshatriya Kula can be accepted to be Kaikula why cannot
you accept Pallavar -> Pallar because there is critical research in this theory
other than in Puranas and Sinhala biased Mahavamsa.
But from your answer below that Tamil History is all fabricated (which I have
seen you make many times in the net) we are certain who you are . Only sinhala
history is not fabricated according to you. You once said Malaylees were north
Indians too :-)
So your stories that Arigner Anna is an Aryan is as laughable as it can come
from a Sri Lankan only.
Please keep reading your Purans in aid of Gamini Iriyagolle and people like
him. You have no credibility left in this Tamil NG. Why dont you keep to
Soc.culture.srilanka which is for you Sri Lankans, where they will belive your
propaganda.
>Tamil claims are most of the time baseless.. like your Pallan and
>Pallavan theory...
>
>Suesa12 wrote:
>>
>> Bottom line this is what you are doing for the Sri Lankans in the NET.
>>
>> Disproving Tamil claims to antiquity and territory - III & IV
>> by Gamini Iriyagolle
>>
>> It has been also affirmed, after examination of all available evidence,
>that
>> from the 6th century B.C. onwards Sri Lankan (i.e. Sinhala) kings and South
>> Indian Pandyan kings would have been Aryans who had established themselves
>as
>> the rulers of the indigenous population (A. Parpola, cited b S.U.
>Deraniyagala
>> in his monumental work Prehistory of Sri Lanka. Part II, p. 747.
>> After the Aryan clans seized power, the developments in Sri Lanka and in
>the
>> Pandya country were different. In Sri Lanka the Aryans, who were called
>> Sinhalese, assimilated the indigenous inhabitants and all later immigrants
>> until their hydraulic civilisation decayed and collapsed in the dry zone.
>In
>> South India the Aryan ruling class became Tamilized, though the Dravidian
>> speakers themselves had been aryanized to a significant degree. "History
>begins
>> in the South of India as in the North with the advent of Aryans" (Nilakanta
>> Sastri. op. cit.p.64).
>>
Suesa12
>
You say you are Tamil
But you call Vellalar in ceylon coolies
You call Karayans as lower class fisherman
You call Pallans as slaves
You call Mukkuvas as treacherous bastards
So that rules you out of 99.999% of Tamils in ceylon.
The only option open is that you a Sinhalese of Tamil decent like Kaikula who
hates Tamils like your PM Chandrika who is a Sinhalese of Tamil decent (she is
dark as night).
Remeber you said Sinhala mudalis do not know that they are Pallavas (not Tamils
but Arya Kshatryia Pallavas LOL)It is because the Mudalis dont want to be
looked down upon as lowerclass Tamils by their Sinhalese friends Those who know
that they have Tamil ancestry make up these Arya Kshatriya ancestry to be
accepted by Sinhalese including sinhalese fishermen in ceylon who are from
Tamil Nadu. (But you also contrdicted yourself when some asked you ceylonese
Khaikula must be Sinhalese you said no they are still Tamil in ceylon)
So live in your dream world that you are an blue eyed blonde haired Aryan
living among savages. Good night.
pallavan
uneducated people. Historical facts and the conduct of the people are
the chapters or turning points in History. I found Tamil people are the
majority exported as coolie laborers from India.
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >Sri lanka Vellalar are dominant coolies of the white colonial masters.
> >
>
> You say you are Tamil
>
> But you call Vellalar in ceylon coolies
> You call Karayans as lower class fisherman
> You call Pallans as slaves
> You call Mukkuvas as treacherous bastards
>
> So that rules you out of 99.999% of Tamils in ceylon.
>
> The only option open is that you a Sinhalese of Tamil decent like
Still you did not say what caste you belong?
Kaikula who
> hates Tamils like your PM Chandrika who is a Sinhalese of Tamil decent (she is
> dark as night).
Are you telling that all the DARK people are Tamil? Chandrika's ancestor
was a NEELA PERUMAL but no body knows that he was a Tamil or Kannada or
Telugu or Malayalee. All agree that he came from south India.
>
> Remeber you said Sinhala mudalis do not know that they are Pallavas (not Tamils
> but Arya Kshatryia Pallavas LOL)It is because the Mudalis dont want to be
> looked down upon as lowerclass Tamils by their Sinhalese friends Those who know
> that they have Tamil ancestry make up these Arya Kshatriya ancestry to be
> accepted by Sinhalese including sinhalese fishermen in ceylon who are from
> Tamil Nadu.
Sinhala fisherman, all of them are from South India and Tamil origin but
they never claim that they are Kshtriya. You invent stories because of
your ignorance about the history of Sri Lanka.
(But you also contrdicted yourself when some asked you ceylonese
> Khaikula must be Sinhalese you said no they are still Tamil in ceylon
No contradiction here. Khai kula people are still Tamils in Sri lanka. )
Suesa12
>uneducated people.
64% literacy is majority uneducated for you
Historical facts and the conduct of the people are
>the chapters or turning points in History. I found Tamil people are the
>majority exported as coolie laborers from India.
This Shows your Srilankan Sinhala bias, majority of Indians from India went to
other countries are from Bihar, UP, Bengal, MP then Tamilnadu, Andhra.
Also if you are Tamil then you must be a Tamil coolie like the rest of them
too.
>
>Suesa12 wrote:
>>
>> >Sri lanka Vellalar are dominant coolies of the white colonial masters.
>> >
>>
>> You say you are Tamil
>>
>> But you call Vellalar in ceylon coolies
>> You call Karayans as lower class fisherman
>> You call Pallans as slaves
>> You call Mukkuvas as treacherous bastards
>>
>> So that rules you out of 99.999% of Tamils in ceylon.
>>
>> The only option open is that you a Sinhalese of Tamil decent like
>
>Still you did not say what caste you belong?
>
So your are exposed No answer Mr. Pallava !
Which Tamil caste are you going to invent that you belong ? ha ha ha ha ha
> Kaikula who
>> hates Tamils like your PM Chandrika who is a Sinhalese of Tamil decent (she
>is
>> dark as night).
>
>Are you telling that all the DARK people are Tamil?
So you are dark too but thinks as a Kshatriya from North India very laughabale.
Chandrika's ancestor
>was a NEELA PERUMAL but no body knows that he was a Tamil or Kannada or
>Telugu or Malayalee. All agree that he came from south India.
Show me a Telugu or Kannada perumal, I belive the Perumal are Arya Kshatriyas
from North India who have been Tamilized like your Sri Lanka professors say he
he he he
Actulally the word Perumal is derived from Peruma which is an ancient Palli
word for the gothrams of Pallava kings
ho ho ho ho
>>
>> Remeber you said Sinhala mudalis do not know that they are Pallavas (not
>Tamils
>> but Arya Kshatryia Pallavas LOL)It is because the Mudalis dont want to be
>> looked down upon as lowerclass Tamils by their Sinhalese friends Those who
>know
>> that they have Tamil ancestry make up these Arya Kshatriya ancestry to be
>> accepted by Sinhalese including sinhalese fishermen in ceylon who are from
>> Tamil Nadu.
>
>Sinhala fisherman, all of them are from South India and Tamil origin but
>they never claim that they are Kshtriya. You invent stories because of
Yes like your esteemed Chula Vamsa which says these fisherman are Arya
Kshatriyas from North India who came with the Bo tree. Dont lie to me I have
read your Propaganda manuals
>your ignorance about the history of Sri Lanka.
> (But you also contrdicted yourself when some asked you ceylonese
>> Khaikula must be Sinhalese you said no they are still Tamil in ceylon
>
>No contradiction here. Khai kula people are still Tamils in Sri lanka. )
Thats why Sinhala Muthalis do not know their Pallava ancestry ? You contradict
yourself again and again.
Suesa12
>they never claim that they are Kshtriya. You invent stories
I will proove that you are a liar
Just read the following
http://kafula.msrc.sunysb.edu/~sbarrkum/newsgroups/differences.txt
specifically the following made up history of the fishermen of Chilaw
The article was written by Sereno- Barr Kumarakulasinghe
Some of the few groups that
do admit to recent immigration from India attempt to claim a North
Indian origin contrary to what is said in the history books. Heres a
current reference for one such from the Sunday Observer.
http://www.lanka.net/lakehouse/1997/08/03/fea04.html
Observer Sunday 03, August 1997
>The music-makers of Chilaw by Mihindukulasuriya Susantha Fernando
>The founding patriarch of this community was Mihindukulasuriya Mudiyanse,
>a Kshatriya general of North Indian origin, who with
>seven other Kshatriya generals lead a massive mercenary army from Kerala
>to Sri Lanka, at the call of King Sri Parakramabahu VI of
>Kotte (1412-1467), and won a fierce war against the South Indian invaders
>called Mukkaru, who had encamped at Puttalam.
This passage is based on the Mukkaru Hatana documented in the
Culavamsa (Culavamsa, XC 16). This passage differentiates between
the Ariya mercenaries who kill Senapati Mitta in the presence of
the Sihala soldiers. The Aryan mercenaries are considered to
be of Pandyan origin by Geiger. It should be noted that the Pandyan
dynasty with its capital in Madurai was considered be of Ariya descent
and is also related to some parts of the Jaffna Dynasty and the
Kandyan dynasties. The only North Indian Kshatriya connection is that
the Pandyans in Madurai consider themselves to be Aryans. However,
South Indian caste structure has only Brahamins and Sudras and
none of the other intervening castes prevalent in North Indian society.
Now tell me that somehow we have to belive every word from Mahavamsa,
Chulavamsa, Skanda Purana etc.
What ever these tall tales from these historic bablings of priests in the
service of kings have to be supported by archelogical, anthropological and
genetic evidence. Withput anyof these your claims are that of a Charletan in
theservices of a modern wannabe kings.
What is interesting is that Mukkuvar have become Mukkaru like Kai Kula have
become Kshatriya Kula!!!!
LOL
pallavan
people. Like your Pallans claims of Pallava ancestry!
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >Sinhala fisherman, all of them are from South India and Tamil origin but
> >they never claim that they are Kshtriya. You invent stories
>
> I will proove that you are a liar
>
> Just read the following
>
> http://kafula.msrc.sunysb.edu/~sbarrkum/newsgroups/differences.txt
>
> specifically the following made up history of the fishermen of Chilaw
>
> The article was written by Sereno- Barr Kumarakulasinghe
Thsi Barr Kumarakulasinghe who is a relative of Tamil leader SJV
Chelvanayagam, from a family of APPU KUTTY. They were of Malayala origin
but now they claim what ever suitable to his needs.
>
> Some of the few groups that
> do admit to recent immigration from India attempt to claim a North
> Indian origin contrary to what is said in the history books. Heres a
> current reference for one such from the Sunday Observer.
> http://www.lanka.net/lakehouse/1997/08/03/fea04.html
> Observer Sunday 03, August 1997
>
> >The music-makers of Chilaw by Mihindukulasuriya Susantha Fernando
> >The founding patriarch of this community was Mihindukulasuriya Mudiyanse,
> >a Kshatriya general of North Indian origin, who with
> >seven other Kshatriya generals lead a massive mercenary army from Kerala
> >to Sri Lanka, at the call of King Sri Parakramabahu VI of
> >Kotte (1412-1467), and won a fierce war against the South Indian invaders
> >called Mukkaru, who had encamped at Puttalam.
You are an idiot anyway! The general was of aryan origin but his
soldiers were Malayalees. You never understand Pali. So, you are trying
to prove your Pallan= Pallavan theory!
>
> This passage is based on the Mukkaru Hatana documented in the
> Culavamsa (Culavamsa, XC 16). This passage differentiates between
> the Ariya mercenaries who kill Senapati Mitta in the presence of
> the Sihala soldiers. The Aryan mercenaries are considered to
> be of Pandyan origin by Geiger. It should be noted that the Pandyan
> dynasty with its capital in Madurai was considered be of Ariya descent
> and is also related to some parts of the Jaffna Dynasty and the
> Kandyan dynasties. The only North Indian Kshatriya connection is that
> the Pandyans in Madurai consider themselves to be Aryans. However,
> South Indian caste structure has only Brahamins and Sudras and
> none of the other intervening castes prevalent in North Indian society.
Yes! All the S.Indians are Shudra but the others who have N.Indian
origin are not Shudra.
But your Pallan = Pallavan theory make Bharadwaja and Nanthi Gotrams as
low caste slaves. So you should know the faulse claims of the Pallans!
>
> Now tell me that somehow we have to belive every word from Mahavamsa,
> Chulavamsa, Skanda Purana etc.
>
> What ever these tall tales from these historic bablings of priests in the
> service of kings have to be supported by archelogical, anthropological and
> genetic evidence. Withput anyof these your claims are that of a Charletan in
> theservices of a modern wannabe kings.
>
> What is interesting is that Mukkuvar have become Mukkaru like Kai Kula have
> become Kshatriya Kula!!!!
You call in Tamil ,Mukkuvar but you are called as TAMIL in English!
Read some more Pali to undestand the CHULA VAMSA.
>
> LOL
pallavan
That is why your Tamils hang on to Jaya lalitha and MGR and Karunanithi!
I lived in your Tamil nadu for some years.
many of the fools do not understand the difference between GEMINI and
GERMANY!
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >Your explanations are laghable. The Tamil nadu population are majority
> >uneducated people.
>
> 64% literacy is majority uneducated for you
>
> Historical facts and the conduct of the people are
> >the chapters or turning points in History. I found Tamil people are the
> >majority exported as coolie laborers from India.
>
> This Shows your Srilankan Sinhala bias, majority of Indians from India went to
> other countries are from Bihar, UP, Bengal, MP then Tamilnadu, Andhra.
>
> Also if you are Tamil then you must be a Tamil coolie like the rest of them
> too.
My ancestry is not Tamil and no chances for your story!
There is no Sinhala bias here. Statistics from British Museum tell the
story!
More than a million to Sri lanka alone during the British time alone as
coolies from Tamil nadu.
What about the Malaysian Rubber plantations?
Don't you feel shame to export people from India?
> >Sinhala fisherman, all of them are from South India and Tamil origin but
Suesa12
So why do you have a Tamil name and claim to be Tamil in the net and go on
preaching us your SL history !
Suesa12
>people
Because I proved that you are a liar.
>http://kafula.msrc.sunysb.edu/~sbarrkum/newsgroups/differences.txt
Kshatriya Kula =kaikula, Mukkaru= Mukkuva, Parathava=Bharathava, Karyar=Kuru
is all made up stories in your Chulavamsa, Mahavamsa, Skanda purana which will
not stand up to real test :-)
It is an attempt to discredit Tamils thats all !
Suesa12
Sure a Eellava slave of the Namboothiris ;-)
pallavan
pallavan
>
> >You are talking something which is not related to Senguntha or Kaikula
> >people
>
> Because I proved that you are a liar.
You did not touch the subject but you behaved like an ordinary Tamil
Cinema fan..
You proved nothing but shouted woth anger and jealous.
>
> >http://kafula.msrc.sunysb.edu/~sbarrkum/newsgroups/differences.txt
>
> Kshatriya Kula =kaikula, Mukkaru= Mukkuva, Parathava=Bharathava,
Of course can you deny anything mentioned above are false WITH OUT
KNOWING THE LANGUAGE USED TO WRITE THOSE WORKS. You cannot understand
anything through your undeveloped tamil....
Karyar=Kuru
Karayar = karai(shore)ar. ARE PURE TAMIL FISHERMEN
But they relate them as Kuru Kulam because of Maha Bharatham..
YaYadhi, Puru, Guru, Sandhanu...
one of them married a fisherwoman....
> is all made up stories in your Chulavamsa, Mahavamsa, Skanda purana which will
> not stand up to real test :-)
All these books stood up for test long long ago and those books need no
certification from you or any other Pallans or any Krishnasamy from
Tamil Nadu.
>
You tried to equate Pallan with Pallavan because You have no ancestry of
anything to be proud. Opressing and suppressing of history never work in
a good direction.
> It is an attempt to discredit Tamils thats all !
Tamils discredit themselves by writing like you.. No other people are
needed to discredit tamil. Your Pallan =Pallavan theory is an example.
pallavan
Pallavan is not a Tamil name. First understand this. I am not preaching
SL history here but history of Tamil nadu...
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> >My ancestry is not Tamil and no chances for your story!
>
pallavan
Suesa12
>Pallavan is not a Tamil name. First understand this. I am not preaching
>SL history here but history of Tamil nadu...
Hey Srilankan Idiot!
Pallavan is either a Tamilized or Malayaliazed rendition of Pallava.
So either you are a Tamil or Malayalee. As you initially claimed Tamil ancestry
in the NET (we have ample proof) and now say you are not a Tamil.(I made you
say that :-))
You must be a Malayalee. But there are .0001% Malayalees with Pallavan as a
name.
So you made it all up. Your name, your ancestry and your knowledge from puranas
is just to confuse the Tamils on the net.
Suesa12
yes
Suesa12
>Cinema fan..
The subject Mr. Sri lankan Idiot is
Many caste groups in Tamilnadu and those who migrated to your country from
Tamilnadu claim Arya Kshatriya ancestry. But in Tamilnadu there are only
according to varna system only Shudras and Brahmins. No intermediary castes
like Kshatriyas and Vysyas like in north India.
>>http://kafula.msrc.sunysb.edu/~sbarrkum/newsgroups/differences.txt
>>
What the above article prooves is the caste embellishment stories in
Chulavamsa, Mahavamsa, Skandapurana has to be taken in with a pinch of salt.
Without proper archelogical, anthropological, genetic evidence these Tall
claims by people are just stories. And because of lack of critical reading you
persist on these theories.
Pallava to pallar connection has to do with their enslavement. Show me a single
group which became slaves voluntarily ? They were enslaved from the Pallava
country and brought to Cholamandalam and beyond by the Cholas.
They are not claiming Kshatriya ancestry, except that they were the cultivators
and land owners in Pallava country (ruled by your Bharatwaja gothram nandi
Varman etc) who were enslaved by the victorious Cholas and sold into salvery.
Now the critcal evidence is not in Chulavamsa, Skandapuran but in modern
research which indicates the emminance of Pallar in land realted ceremonies.
This in itself is not proof enough but atleast there is some critical evidence.
For your Kshatriya story to standup what archelogical, anthropological and
genetic studies besides caste embelishment stories have you provided. None,
beacuse there is none. May be you should get up from your couch infront of the
TV and do it yourself to proove yours and Gamini Irriyagols theory somehow some
of us are real Arya Kshatriyas. good luck.
pallavan
people never claim that they are sudras. Only others are sudras. Sri
lanka still maintain good historical and old traditions. Further the
shallow standards of education in Tamil Nadu has led for many
destruction of history. Research is not a supported subject in Tamil
Nadu..
Very soon you will quote evidences from Karunanithi's cinema stories as
historical evidences.
pallavan
pallavan
You again prove that you are an idiot again!
No historian so far identified the origin of PALLAVA or its meaning. You
are the first one tells that Pallava is tamil or Malayalam.
I always say that now for the last few centuries we speak Tamil and now
we are Tamil. This is not the case in the past like Tamil Nadu Brahmins.
Suesa12
>people never claim that they are sudras. Only others are sudras
We have castes only after conversion to Hinuism, before that we we Jains and
Buddhist. Sengunthas worked with Pallavas who were Buddhist so we did not have
castes then.
This invention of castes is all after we becoming Hindus. So we dont accept
that some Tamils are Shudras and some other Tamils are Kshatriyas. We are all
Tamils. End of story.
Suesa12
>You again prove that you are an idiot again!
>
Hey Sinhala Idiot, read my post again dont you know how to read
>No historian so far identified the origin of PALLAVA or its meaning. You
>are the first one tells that Pallava is tamil or Malayalam.
I said Pallav(an) is a Tamil/Malayala rendition of the word Pallava. Please
check a dictionary as to the meaning of the word rendition. May be your
esteemed Skanda Purana has a meaning for rendition. May be in your mara mandai
Dictionaries do not exist !!!
Suesa12
Like you think you are an Aryan Kshatriya. Your logic is convoluted.
Suesa12
> If anyone is interested to know where the Mudaliars come from? You
> need to refer to the scribal versions too of Kings. I was attracted to
> an argument in a book written by Mukkulathor Sangham that Mudaliars
> were orginally Devars who were part of the orginal Tamil community.
> It
> was also interesting to read how Devars view themselves in relation
> with other communities such as Vanniars, Konars and others. They did
> not place a higher status for themselves but identified as Tamils
> (?)or Nagars who are not Arians nor Dravidians. Dravidians were seen
> as aborigines of India but not lower in status. From such an
> understanding they derive that Pillais, Wandayars, Mudaliars are all
> slow transformation of identity into a different systems even before
> Aryans or as an outcome of Aryan intercourse. 'the poem--Kallar mella
> mella pillai yanar' justfy this and the present day mudaliars in Tamil
> Nadu derive their root directly into the Devar system and their (if
> this is true) matrilinial lineage between Devar and Mudaliar are the
> same. I think this present a case for Mudaliar's link with Devar
> community that might be different in other countries. Ref- Caldwell-
> history of Triunelveli, Mukulathor's history by Veera pandian, Tribes
> of South India.
(Author not me)
pallavan
Muthaliyars! He failed to identify the Kallar components in Muthaliars.
What is his explanation for the existing Muthali and muthaliar in
Sinhala community?
Muthali(ar) is a word related to the old royal houses and not to the
Kallar who ne ver had any royal connection.
pallavan
Is this a Tamil word?
pallavan
Like your PALLAN = PALLAVAN theries.
pallavan
pallavan
Suesa12
>Buddhism failed in eliminating the caste system.
How can we have castes before Buddhism and Jainism because Hindu religion
became prominent ONLY AFTER the demise of these religions. Tamils and other
native people of India NEVER had castes till the introduction of Hindu religion
after Buddhism and Jainism.
>Not necessarily to be true. He confused Kallar and others with
>Muthaliyars! He failed to identify the Kallar components in Muthaliars.
He did because he understood as any scholar would that Muthaliar is a title
that many castes including the Sengunthars have attained and jealously guarded.
>What is his explanation for the existing Muthali and muthaliar in
>Sinhala community?
What is the explanation for Saliyar in Salagama ?
What is the explanation for Karayar in Karawe ?
What is the explanation for Seniyar in Durave ?
It is called immigration to Sri Lanka from Tamil Nadu
>Muthali(ar) is a word related to the old royal houses and not to the
>Kallar who never had any royal connection.
One explanation for the following words
Kallar - Kallap Padai Veerar
Agamudayar - Ahap Padai Veerar
Maravar - Marap Padai Veerar
These are three elements of the Pallava and later Chola foot soldiers
>Suesa12 wrote:
pallavan
They, the colonialists, tried to make all the hindus as christians and
failed. Are you telling these christians has no castes? The same way
all the tamils never be buddhists. Even they adopted buddhism the
people in tamil Nadu maintained caste systems.
Suesa12 wrote:
>
> Pallavan Wrote
>
> >Buddhism failed in eliminating the caste system.
>
> How can we have castes before Buddhism and Jainism because Hindu religion
> became prominent ONLY AFTER the demise of these religions. Tamils and other
> native people of India NEVER had castes till the introduction of Hindu religion
> after Buddhism and Jainism.
remember Buddha was a Hindu Kshatriya. Before Buddhism or jainism
introduced the people of India followed Hinduism!
Read Buddhas's or any Jain History!
>
> >Not necessarily to be true. He confused Kallar and others with
> >Muthaliyars! He failed to identify the Kallar components in Muthaliars.
>
> He did because he understood as any scholar would that Muthaliar is a title
> that many castes including the Sengunthars have attained and jealously guarded.
You are jealous of Senguntha people and their past glory. You have
nothing to glorify your past. This is not the problem of Senguntha or
Kaikula people.
>
> >What is his explanation for the existing Muthali and muthaliar in
> >Sinhala community?
>
> What is the explanation for Saliyar in Salagama ?
> What is the explanation for Karayar in Karawe ?
> What is the explanation for Seniyar in Durave ?
>
> It is called immigration to Sri Lanka from Tamil Nadu
>
> >Muthali(ar) is a word related to the old royal houses and not to the
> >Kallar who never had any royal connection.
>
> One explanation for the following words
>
> Kallar - Kallap Padai Veerar
> Agamudayar - Ahap Padai Veerar
> Maravar - Marap Padai Veerar
>
> These are three elements of the Pallava and later Chola foot soldiers
Kallar or Maravar or Agamidiyar never be part of the Pallava soldiers.
Really the Kallar who are the descendents of the Khalabras, were
defeated by Pallava and Pandian forces.
>
> >Suesa12 wrote:
Suesa12
>They, the colonialists, tried to make all the hindus as christians and
>failed. Are you telling these christians has no castes? The same way
>all the tamils never be buddhists. Even they adopted buddhism the
>people in tamil Nadu maintained caste systems.
You have to look at timelines of History. Tamils only had tribes and clans, not
castes. Buddhism was introduced among animist Dravidian speaking people.
Jainism was very popular among the masses of present day Karnataka and Malabar.
Buddhism was preeminent among the masses of present day Andhra and Northern
Tamilnadu, rest of Tamilnadu and Travancore was a mixture of Jains and
Buddhist. All the Jaina and Buddhist temples and sites are older than any Hindu
temples and sites in South India in fact even India.
Off course this doesn't mean Tribal and clannish differences were amalgamated
into nations during the time of Buddhist and Jains, but castes is only the
invention of relatively modern times. So your effort to divide Tamils into
Shudras and Kshatriyas reflects an imprecise understanding of Tamil, Indian and
Hindu history.
pallavan
gothram. One of the oldest hindu Gothram dedicated for warriors!
Now the clans are identified as castes! Thsi is the reason kallan fight
pallan in Tamil nadu!
Pallan and vellalan do the same job. Then why Pallan is low? because
pallan belong to another clan!
Caste is not the recent invention! Clans changed into castes in tamil
nadu! This is why all the castes in tamil nadu tries to find a royal
link. You should realise one important thing. The rulers of tamil
country were not tamils. If they are Tamils, can you tell us the meaning
of the following words:
1. Chera
2. Chola
3. Pandiaya.
Why are you silent on the Khalabra rule of three centuries. This period
is called dark period of tamils!