When Did Malayalam Branch From Tamil?
Srinivas
mentions this started occuring in 9th century AD:
Proto-Tamil Malayalam, the common stock of Tamil and Malayalam
apparently disintegrated over a period of four of five centuries from
the ninth century on, resulting in the emergence of Malayalam as a
language distinct from Tamil.
yet, i read somewhere else that malayalam branched from tamil only 400
years ago. this sounds somewhat plausible to me given that the sri
lankan tamils migrated from *kerala* and not TN.
second question: did malayalam branch from tamil, or from
proto-tamil/malayalam?
thanks!
Srinivas
i'm sorry. i dind't realize that there was a linguistic-arithmatics
available after everyone told me on sci.lang that linguistic
divergence can't be computed with algorithms.
> > second question: did malayalam branch from tamil, or from
> > proto-tamil/malayalam?
>
> (a) What would the difference be?
please refer to your enc. brittanica/americana.
> (b) Do you not have access to, say, the Encyclopaedia Britannica?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Srinivas wrote:
> >
> > > Did you do the arithmetic? They come out just about the same.
> >
> > i'm sorry. i dind't realize that there was a linguistic-arithmatics
> > available after everyone told me on sci.lang that linguistic
> > divergence can't be computed with algorithms.
>
>
> > yet, i read somewhere else that malayalam branched from tamil only 400
> > years ago. this sounds somewhat plausible to me given that the sri
> > lankan tamils migrated from *kerala* and not TN.
>
> by the comparative method sometimes called lexicostatistics,
> sometimes glottochronology, it is entirely worthless. If
> it was obtained from historical documents, it is credible
> and likely quite reliable.
>
> What you probably mean by "Malayalam branched from Tamil"
> is
>
> 1. the name "Malayalam" did not appear until 400 years ago
>
> or:
>
> 2. since then Tamil has remained relatively unchanged, whilst
> Malayalam has diverged from the Tamil of 1600 AD
>
> I see nothing wrong with either or both claims, if they
> are based on dated documentary evidence.
>
> >
> > > > second question: did malayalam branch from tamil, or from
> > > > proto-tamil/malayalam?
>
> terminology, accessorily a matter of what comparative
> model you use.
(The other thing he wrote was
> > Proto-Tamil Malayalam, the common stock of Tamil and Malayalam
> > apparently disintegrated over a period of four of five centuries from
> > the ninth century on, resulting in the emergence of Malayalam as a
> > language distinct from Tamil.
and 9th century (ending in 900) + 400-500 years is 1400 AD, not much
different (linguistically speaking) from 1550 AD (we don't know when his
"400 years ago" was published, so let's take mid-century).)
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
pallavan
letters close to Sinhala letters.
I think present day Tamil has nothing to do with the MALAYALAM of OLD or
NEW!
TAMIL was seperated as different language before first century because
TAMIL NADU was occupied by unknown KALABRAS for three centuries from 1 AD
to 3AD. No data is available during these period on TAMIL HISTORY!
Saviors of Tamil Nadu from the KALABRA domination were Pandiyas and Pallavas
who came from the NORTH spoke PALI.
No datas available about the relations between Pallavas and SERA kings. But
Kerala Royals has same last name """VARMA(N)"""".
Srinivas <rateof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Srinivas
> > 1. the name "Malayalam" did not appear until 400 years ago
> >
> > or:
> >
> > 2. since then Tamil has remained relatively unchanged, whilst
> > Malayalam has diverged from the Tamil of 1600 AD
i wonder what caused this divergence (assuming that malayalam branched
from tamil, and not proto-malayalam/tamil)? i noticed that there are
people named "pillay" across both states: from southern kerala and
southern tn (where the 2 states meet). perhaps some schism occured
which was political and/or maybe religious in nature. this schism is
what seperated the iranian's ancient religion of zoroastrianism to
hinduism.
perhaps there are some religious-based words in malayalam which means
the *opposite* in tamil. for example, the word for a god in tamil
nadu may mean "devil" in malayalam. this is seen in hinduism and
zoroastrian ('deva' at one time meant something 'bad' in hinduism and
zoroastrian, but later, in meant something 'good' in hinduism [the
word "devil" is a cognate of "deva"]).
Srinivas
is more similar to hindi than to tamil, which did *NOT* cvome from
sanskrit. ironically, singhalese is more similar to english (our
medium of communication) than tamil, since english and singhalese are
indo-european.
Lalith Vijayabahu
I agree with you. Philological evidence does seem to show that Sinhala is
ultimately derived from old Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) through middle Indo-Aryan or
Prakrit (whose best representative is Pali, the language of the Buddhist
scriptures). However the Sinhalese language was greatly influenced by Elu which is
indigenous to Sri Lanka and spoken by the Veddahs.
"Due to its strategic position in the waterways of the east, the Sinhala language
has been susceptible to manifold foreign linguistic influences. This has come
mainly from Tamil, the Dravidian language spoken by the Tamils of neighbouring
South India. Tamil influence was particularly felt after the 11th century,
following the great cholan invasion of the island. Such words as padakkam (medal),
kulappu (agitation), kappam (tribute), sellam (play), mattam (level), salli
(money), padi (wages), kodi (flag), oppu (proof), ottu (espionage) in common
parlance in Sinhala, are infact Tamil loans."
-- Asiff hussein, "Evolution of the Sinhala language"
Sinhala maybe an Indo Aryan tongue, but it is the closest Indro Aryan language to
Tamil. I'd say it is more similar to Tamil than Hindi or English.
Harlan Messinger
>But I cannot accept this idea because MALAYALAM has its unique features and
>letters close to Sinhala letters.
One of the biggest non-sequiturs I've seen in a while. Hebrew and
Arabic are related, German and Yiddish are related, Turkish and Kyrgyz
are related, and in each pair one language is written using a
different alphabet from the other. The writing being used has
*nothing* to do with whether the languages are related. Some languages
have been written with different alphabets: Turkish used to be written
with Arabic script, for example, and shifted to a modified Roman
alphabet.
>
--
Harlan Messinger
There is no xyz in my actual e-mail address.
pallavan
Nothing there in sinhala as you claim!
Tamil, Sinhala and Malayalam consist Sanskrit and PALI words. Sinhala has
more Pali words than Sanskrit!
I think you know nothing about PALI! Further you have no knowledge of TAMIL
or SINHALA!
Sinhala itself a unique language to Sri Lanka only. Gramattically Sinhala is
closer to TAMIL or similar to Tamil.
Hindi has nothing to do with Sinhala anyway!
Without knowing Sinhala, dont try to fool yourself!
Srinivas <rateof...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:db6703fe.02012...@posting.google.com...
pallavan
before AD!
Is it after the 11th century?
Moggalana of Sigiriya went to s/india and came with Tamil forces to defeat
his brother KASYAPPA in 4th Century. Is this not true?
Can you tell what is the meaning of KANDY or SENGADAGALA?
Kandy is a word used in KERALA. Even the Sri Lankan HILL COUNTRY was known
as MALAYA( TAMIL- MALAI=hill) RATA even before 11th century.
MALAYA RATA, and MALAYALAM have very close cultural links as well.
The ELU is the common ancesstor for SINHALA, MALAYALAM and TAMIL. Most of
the SINHALA town or city names are not SINHALA. They have the root in
MALAYALAM or TAMIL.
Sinhala and Tamil had influenced by the PALI speaking PALLAVA KINGDOM of
South India. One Sinhala prince MANA VAMMA(VARMA) was in the court of
Narasimha Pallava in the 4-5 century. He participated in the war against
Chalukya Pulikesi. Pallavas were victorious over PULIKESI.
TRIPITAKA was translated from SINHALA to PALI by BHIKKU BUDDHA GHOSA from
KANCHIPURAM which was the capital of PALLAVA KINGS. JAFFNA kings too
belonged to the PALLAVA KINGS. This is why they were called as ARYA
CHAKRAWARTHIS. PALLAVA KINGS were identified as BRAHMINS who belong to
BHARADWAJA GOTHRA. Some PALLAVA KINGS were BUDDHISTS. One PALLAVA king's
name was BUDDHA VARMA.
Sinhala, Tamil and Malayalam have the common root for their "LETTERS or
scripts".
The Sinhala word " KANTHULU" is for tears. KAN=EYE. THULI=drop ( EYE DROPS
in TAMIL) Can any body trace the origin in HINDI or PALI for this word? This
is a TAMIL originated word.
Anthroplogically Sinhalese have no resemblences with NORTH INDIANS. LOOK at
the cricket team of SRI LANKA!
Further Sri lankan racist politics is now trying to make blunders in the
history as well.
Bandaranayake or Senanayake or Jayawardene has no ancestry in North India.
This is a proven fact. Political opportunism is not history.
Lalith Vijayabahu <nomail...@nospam.com> wrote in message
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Karuval Suntha
"pallavan" <pall...@eol.ca> wrote in message
news:XSA38.1148$Vd.3...@news.eol.ca...
> Sinhala itself a unique language to Sri Lanka only. Gramattically Sinhala
is
> closer to TAMIL or similar to Tamil.
>
That's right!!
Karuval Suntha
> TRIPITAKA was translated from SINHALA to PALI by BHIKKU BUDDHA GHOSA from
> KANCHIPURAM which was the capital of PALLAVA KINGS. JAFFNA kings too
> belonged to the PALLAVA KINGS. This is why they were called as ARYA
> CHAKRAWARTHIS. PALLAVA KINGS were identified as BRAHMINS who belong to
> BHARADWAJA GOTHRA. Some PALLAVA KINGS were BUDDHISTS. One PALLAVA king's
> name was BUDDHA VARMA.
When Kanchipuram was under Buddhist influence Pallava Kings are Buddhist.
After Hindus defeated Buddhist influence Pallava Kings are Hindus.
>
> Sinhala, Tamil and Malayalam have the common root for their "LETTERS or
> scripts".
>
> The Sinhala word " KANTHULU" is for tears. KAN=EYE. THULI=drop ( EYE
DROPS
> in TAMIL) Can any body trace the origin in HINDI or PALI for this word?
This
> is a TAMIL originated word.
PALI usage in Sinhala is very minimal compare to Tamil Usage in Sinhala!!!
>
> Anthroplogically Sinhalese have no resemblences with NORTH INDIANS. LOOK
at
> the cricket team of SRI LANKA!
>
> Further Sri lankan racist politics is now trying to make blunders in the
> history as well.
Right!!
>
> Bandaranayake or Senanayake or Jayawardene has no ancestry in North India.
> This is a proven fact. Political opportunism is not history.
Right!!!
Karuval Suntha
> "Due to its strategic position in the waterways of the east, the Sinhala
language
> has been susceptible to manifold foreign linguistic influences. This has
come
> mainly from Tamil, the Dravidian language spoken by the Tamils of
neighbouring
> South India. Tamil influence was particularly felt after the 11th century,
> following the great cholan invasion of the island.
There is no archeological proof for this except Sinhala Government Funded
propaganda!!!
Peter T. Daniels
>
> I know Sinhala, Tamil and Malayalam well! and English also!
> Nothing there in sinhala as you claim!
> Tamil, Sinhala and Malayalam consist Sanskrit and PALI words. Sinhala has
> more Pali words than Sanskrit!
>
> I think you know nothing about PALI! Further you have no knowledge of TAMIL
> or SINHALA!
>
> Sinhala itself a unique language to Sri Lanka only. Gramattically Sinhala is
> closer to TAMIL or similar to Tamil.
>
> Hindi has nothing to do with Sinhala anyway!
>
> Without knowing Sinhala, dont try to fool yourself!
Gee, and I used to wonder why nearly all the remaining pornography shops
in New York City are run by Sri Lankans.
Karuval Suntha
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@att.net> wrote in message
news:3C4F2C...@att.net...
Meenaradchagan Vishnu
A CORRECTION: ...all run by *Sinhalese*!
This is one reason we (Tamils) want to go separate.
The Sinhala race has lost its self-esteem and is sinking very fast.
The men sell porn in NY city. The women go and work as maid servents
in Arab countries and are routinely ill-treated and raped by their Arab
masters. (There have been rumours that the SL high commission in these
countries actually profits by selling illegitimate babys born to these
women to the west.) Sinhala government encourages pedophile tourists
to continue to come and victimize Sinhala boys. Thousands of army
desserters have settled for a life of robbery and crime in the south.
Meenan Vishnu
Lalith Vijayabahu
You have cited numerous historical incidents but I do not see how they are
related to the argument. The word Kandy is supposed to be the anglicised form of
'kande' or 'kanda' which means 'mountain' in Sinhala. Most Sinhala place names
do have a Sinhala origin, there are many common suffixes such as gama (village)
gala (rock), giri (rock), deniya (rice field), pitiya (park), pura (town), tara
(ford), tota (port), vila (pond), wewa (lake), mulla (corner, place). The words
that go in front of these usually have some historical significance or reflect
an environmental feature of the area.
Buddhaghosa was actually born in northen India, near Bodh Gaya. 'Amongst the
sparse details that he gives about himself, he declared that he once lived in
Kanchipuram and in Morandacetaka, which some historians identify with Mylapore
near Madras.'
I'm no linguistic expert, but the fact that the scripts look similar is rather
flimsy evidence of a close relationship don't you think? As the quote in my
previous post revealed, there are many Tamil words that have become part of the
Sinhala language, but that does not mean Sinhala is a Dravidian tongue.
'By linguistic research, it has been possible to connect a number of Sinhala
words to words occuring in European, Iranian and North Indian languages. Such
resemblances are however not very apparent due to the profound sound changes
they have undergone throughout the centuries. For example, Sinhala hatha (seven)
is related not only to the Hindi sat and the Sanskrit Sapta, but also to the
Persian haft, French sept, Greek hepta, and Latin septem.
The evolution of Sinhala from Sanskrit and Prakrit (which is best represented by
the conservative Pali) maybe explained on the basis of sound change through
specific laws.
For example, in Sanskrit, the sound r takes more prominence, appearing in many
words. This is not so in Prakrit (Pali) which has a tendency to eliminate this
sound. In turn Pali words possessed a high proportion of double consonants, a
feature that was eliminated in Sinhala. This had taken place by the 3rd century
B.C. as borne out by the earliest cave inscriptions.
Sanskrit Pali Sinhala
karman kamma kam (work)
marga magga maga (path )
Other sound changes include the change of ch to s, which took place during the
8th century A.C. and became regular by the 10th century.
Pali Sinhala
gachach gasa (tree)
kuchchi kusa (womb)
The change of p to v which occured between the 1st-2nd centuries A.C.
Pali Sinhala
rupa ruva (form)
papa pau (sin)
The change of j to d, which first took place in the 4th century A.C. and became
regular by
the 9th century.
Pali Sinhala
vejja vedha (physician)
ajja adha (today)
and the change of t to l, which as the renowned German philologist, Wilhelm
Geiger has noted, took place through an intermediate d. This occured sometime
between the 6th-10th centuries A.C.
Pali Sinhala
putavi polova (earth)
mata mala (dead) '
-- Asiff Hussein, Evolution of the Sinhala language
pallavan
Buddha and Sinhalese also were HINDUS!
Your sakkili comments are not necessary here because you support a HINDU
KILLER catholic LTTE!
Karuval Suntha <karu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uLC38.5671$Okf....@news2.bloor.is...
pallavan
did not identify any ELU in Sinhala. Why?
PALI was an influential language in the Indian sub continent. Spread of
Buddhism or political power is the reason for the PALI influence of Sinhala
language.
KANTHA is a word mean MALAI(HILL) in Tamil as well! This is the reason Tamil
Hindus have names like KANTHA(N), KANTHA SAMY, KANTHIAH.
Lord MURUGA or Kataragama Devio is always stationed on HILLS(KANTHA) and he
is too called by HINDU TAMILS by those names mentioned above!
Sinhala Urumaya?
In Tamil URUMAI mean ownership. I think the same is for in Sinhala as well!
Further I found many Sinhala villages named like PALLA TARA or NALLURUWA or
like NAINA MADAMA, ANA VILUNTHAVA(PUTTALAM), THOPPU, KANJI KULIYA, HETTI
POLA,
I can site hundreds of them which have TAMIL or South Indian names.
Can you tell what is HERATH MUTHIYANSELAGE....? How many lakhs of SINHALESE
carry this name?
MUTHALI or Muthalige ?
Warna SENA RASA PUTHRAM?
The word SERENDIB is a corrupted form of SERAN THEEVU or THIVA?
SL was known as the island of KERALITES. SERA(N) = KERALA.
This word carry no meaning in ARABIC language or PORTUGESE!
KANDY was renamed some 25 years ago as MAHA NUWARA! Why?
If you deduct PALI and Sanskrit from TAMIL, Sinhalese and Malayalam, you
will get ELU the common ancestor of all these three languages!
Most of the SINHALA researchers who have no knowledge of TAMIL and MALAYALAM
tried to distance SINHALA from TAMIL and MALAYALAM! This is a sad affair for
Sri Lankans.
Further Sinhala or Sri Lanka is really a place of ELU, then Sinhala cannot
be a Euro-Indian- Aryan language.
Lalith Vijayabahu <nomail...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3C4F5DF9...@nospam.com...
pallavan
You too have no proof of any ARCHELOGICAL proofs for your TAMIL home lands.
Further most of the place names in Jaffna district are NON TAMIL NAMES.
PORTUGESE brought in thousands of labourers from MALABAR to Jaffna for the
TOBACCO plantations. Theese records are available.
Karuval Suntha <karu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cOC38.5673$Okf....@news2.bloor.is...
pallavan
are forced to have sex with LTTE criminals in their camps. They filmed and
photographed these in details. Most of the time these youung Tamils are
drugged by LTTE!
You dont need a SEX SHOP but you have a sex abusing organization in the name
of LTTE!
Meenaradchagan Vishnu <mvi...@bbcr11.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:a2niif$k50$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca...
Karuval Suntha
fuck you think you are idiot!!! to tell what to do asshole. Shut the fuck
asshole get back to the manhole and eat the shit motherfucker!!!
"pallavan" <pall...@eol.ca> wrote in message
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Karuval Suntha
"pallavan" <pall...@eol.ca> wrote in message
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Karuval Suntha
"pallavan" <pall...@eol.ca> wrote in message
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Karuval Suntha
"pallavan" <pall...@eol.ca> wrote in message
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pallavan
Catholic coolies like you know how to bark with out any substance.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
I never be a lier than Sakkili KARAYAN PRABHAKARAN who killed so many HINDU
people in the name of EEEEEEEEEEELAM!
Can you tell why LTTE hang on with CATHOLIC CHURCH?
Karuval Suntha <karu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HAT38.8295$eL....@news1.bloor.is...
pallavan
SANKILI was not a KARAYAN and KARAYANS were brought in by PORTUGESE to
destroy HINDUS in the NORTH! Further Sankili was not a TAMIL.
Karuval Suntha <karu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ET38.8297$eL....@news1.bloor.is...
pallavan
Sakkili Suresh Manickkavasagan is the living example.
Karuval Suntha <karu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:XET38.8298$eL....@news1.bloor.is...
pallavan
LTTE and its coolies like you know how to bark and cheat others with their
tiny brain.
Where is your EEEEEEEEEEELAM?
pallavan
Lalith Vijayabahu <nomail...@nospam.com> wrote in message
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