The National/Official Language of India - A Dravidian Perspective
kann...@mailexcite.com
Before we begin any discussion on Nationalism and the National language we
must ask ourselves important questions. Who are we as a people? Where do we
come from? What is our history? What is our heritage etc? Jawaharlal Nehru is
often hailed as the architect of mordern India. To the extent he was an
architect he was a poor one. He along with others educated in England, in
their idealistic zeal transplanted ideas and institutions that were used in
England into India without any regard for who we are as a people.
Who are we as a people? We are not a modern nation state in the same way as
the Netherlands or Denmark. We are the political expression of an ancient
Civilization. (This political expression also happens to be a long sought
historical aspiration - BharatVarsha, making any discussion on the subject
highly emotional). So much so that any disagreement of the language issue can
only mean traitorship to the national cause.
India is a pluralistic country. Racial, cultural and linguistic pluralism has
been part of Indian civilization from its origins. The story of Hindu Indian
civilization can be summed in one phrase - decimination and subjugation of
the Dravidian by the Aryan (with Buddhism providing some relief and Islam
providing some diversion). Despite the fact that some racial intermixing took
place early, the caste system was a racist order - varna asrama dharma -
which subjugated the Dravidian.
Ethnologists estimate 61% of India 's population is pre Aryan (Dravidian and
Australoid) 19% Turkish Mongol and only 20% Aryan.
Language is not only a means of communication. It is also a means of cultural
expression. After Independence many languages have been significantly
transformed. Hindhi is undergoing massive Sanskritization by substituing
Sanskrit for Urdu which was the legacy of muslim rule. Likewise Telugu and
Kannada are also undergoing Sanskritization. To this day I have never
understood how the Sanskritization of Hindhi would be the heritage of a vast
majority of backward caste people and Dalits in Northern India. If they
wanted to replace Urdu should nt they do it with Pali/Prakrits which was
spoken by the common man than Sanskrit. Likewise should 'nt Telugu and
Kannada Dravidianize instead of Sanskritize. Even though India has gotten
independence politically it has 'nt got its independence culturally. A small
group of Brahmins whose heritage is of Aryan origin define the cultural and
linguistic heritage of their respective societies. The only exception to this
rule is the great Dravidian state of Tamilnad. Tamil has undergone
significant desanskritisation during this century. Tamil is phonetically
sanskrit free today.
When we choose a National/Official language for a civilizational country like
India we must not look merely at convienience or how many speakers we have of
that language today. Before colonisation nobody in Asia or Africa spoke
English. Today English is the lingua franca of the world. If we want we can
learn any language. What we must do is identify the right language to learn.
We must choose our national/official language(pre eminent language of our
land) based on our heritage and history if we want to build a nation. Since
61% of India 's population is of a Dravidian origin that language should be a
Dravidian language. Since the other 3 Dravidian languages - Kannada, Telugu
and Malayalam are Sanskritised for many centuries now it leaves us only with
TAMIL.
If we stopped viewing Tamil as a regional language spoken only by 7% of the
population and started viewing it from a historical perspective it would be
much more easier to accept it.
Kannan
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Balaji Gadhiraju
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> Language is not only a means of communication. It is also a means of cultural
> expression. After Independence many languages have been significantly
> transformed. Hindhi is undergoing massive Sanskritization by substituing
> Sanskrit for Urdu which was the legacy of muslim rule. Likewise Telugu and
> Kannada are also undergoing Sanskritization. To this day I have never
> understood how the Sanskritization of Hindhi would be the heritage of a vast
> majority of backward caste people and Dalits in Northern India. If they
> wanted to replace Urdu should nt they do it with Pali/Prakrits which was
> spoken by the common man than Sanskrit. Likewise should 'nt Telugu and
> Kannada Dravidianize instead of Sanskritize.
I believe for a language to survive it has to evolve by abosrbing words
from
other languages also. In that way Telugu has retained it's dravidian
words
and absorbed many sanskrit words where needed. In spoken Telugu the
usage of
Sanskrit words is much less but in written language(Grandhikamu) the
usage of
Sanskrit words is much more. Also in scietific and other text books,
where
there are no Telugu words they are borrowed from both Sanskrit and
English.
I don't know if forcibly removing words of origin from a particular
language will
help, unless somehow we don't like the language of origin(Sanskrit in
this case).
> Even though India has gotten
> independence politically it has 'nt got its independence culturally. A small
> group of Brahmins whose heritage is of Aryan origin define the cultural and
> linguistic heritage of their respective societies. The only exception to this
> rule is the great Dravidian state of Tamilnad. Tamil has undergone
> significant desanskritisation during this century. Tamil is phonetically
> sanskrit free today.
>
I don't know that much about Tamil to comment about this but i believe
usage of English
words in the spoken Tamil should be high. Is that okay?(as they are not
Sanskrit).
As long as any language retains it's originality and abosrbs necessary
words from
other languages i don't see any problem in it.
Currently in India very little effort is made to preserve indian
languages and main
threat is English. Every parent wants their kid to go to English medium
school and
take great pride in speaking in English at home. So survival of a
language depends
on the speakers of that language and their pride it it.
>
> Kannan
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
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Sridhar
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> spoken by the common man than Sanskrit. Likewise should 'nt Telugu and
> independence politically it has 'nt got its independence culturally. A small
> group of Brahmins whose heritage is of Aryan origin define the cultural and
> linguistic heritage of their respective societies. The only exception to this
> rule is the great Dravidian state of Tamilnad. Tamil has undergone
> significant desanskritisation during this century. Tamil is phonetically
> sanskrit free today.
>
> India we must not look merely at convienience or how many speakers we have of
> that language today. Before colonisation nobody in Asia or Africa spoke
> English. Today English is the lingua franca of the world. If we want we can
> learn any language. What we must do is identify the right language to learn.
> We must choose our national/official language(pre eminent language of our
> land) based on our heritage and history if we want to build a nation. Since
> 61% of India 's population is of a Dravidian origin that language should be a
> Dravidian language. Since the other 3 Dravidian languages - Kannada, Telugu
> and Malayalam are Sanskritised for many centuries now it leaves us only with
> TAMIL.
>
> If we stopped viewing Tamil as a regional language spoken only by 7% of the
> population and started viewing it from a historical perspective it would be
> much more easier to accept it.
>
this looks like fun. let's stab away. bros and siz, as our good friend
here has "loquaced", india is 61% dravidian, and 20% aryan. we need a
national language that truly *represents* the people. like our good
friend also says, tamil has been stripped of all sanskrit content by
the great people of the grand dravidian republic.. er.. state of
tamilnad. but this, imho, is a negative. we need a national
language that is willing to absorb from other languages and enrich
itself, just as india has absorbed people from various cultures and
called them her own. since language is not just a means of communication
but a symbol of culture, it doesn't matter if nobody actually speaks
the national language. ladies and gentlemen, allow me to present you
the great, sweet, musical language called kannada. i am told it's
sanskrit content is right about 20% and the dravidian content
tantalisingly perched at 61%. in addition, it has been influenced by
urdu, telugu, marathi, etc. should be no problem to introduce more
words from other languages too. a whopping 3% of the indian population
speaks it but mind you ladies and gentlemen, in the year 1600,
0% of indians spoke english and here we are today teaching the
average brit/yank that it's always "e" after "i" unless following "c"
and whatnot. once we stop viewing kannada as a vernacular language and
get a broad cultural perspective, you'll all surely agree with me on
this matter. so, ladies and gents, please look up in front
of your good selves, heads held at a 36% elevation, bring those tears
to your eyes and pledge your souls to kannada. jai hind.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6nc1c0$kg6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
Statement 1:
> India is a pluralistic country. Racial, cultural and linguistic pluralism has
> been part of Indian civilization from its origins.
> Ethnologists estimate 61% of India 's population is pre Aryan (Dravidian and
> Australoid) 19% Turkish Mongol and only 20% Aryan.
> The story of Hindu Indian civilization can be summed in one phrase -
decimination and subjugation of the Dravidian by the Aryan. Statement 3
contradicts Statements 1 & 2. If the "Aryans" had subjugated the
"dravidians", how could there be cultural and linguistic pluralism(S.1)? If
the "dravidians" had been decimated, how are they the majority today(S.2)?
-Vivek.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
Why is it a racist order? Because "varna" refers to color? That is the
interpretation given by folks who want to interpret the Indian tradition as a
race struggle. Let us see what "varna" is. The sanskrit word "varam" means
"choice". For instance, "svayamvaram" means "self-choice" - the act of
choosing a suitable partner by a woman. We find instances of this even in
Thamizh. Often in "devotional" movies we hear God granting a boon to a
devotee - "BhakthA, Enna Varam vEndum?". "varam" here refers to the "choice"
of the devotee. Also, a marraige alliance for a girl is called "varan"(looks
like they extended a lot of "choice" to women in those days). The degenerate
caste system arose becuase of the disastrous confusion of jAti with
VarnAshrama Dharma. -Vivek.
Mo
Excellent post . I think you are pushing against an open door.
There will be no resistance in 'Aryan' India to learning Tamil if it
was explained that it represents the glorious Dravidian heritage of
India -the true idol worshipping Hinduism.
If just one other Dravidian state -Kerala , Karnataka , Andhra
Pradesh can be persuaded of Tamil's case the Parliament would pass the
bill making it the third national language tomorrow..
Sridhar
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <6nc1c0$kg6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > India is a pluralistic country. Racial, cultural and linguistic pluralism has
> > been part of Indian civilization from its origins.
> Statement 2:
> > Ethnologists estimate 61% of India 's population is pre Aryan (Dravidian and
> > Australoid) 19% Turkish Mongol and only 20% Aryan.
> Statement 3:
> > The story of Hindu Indian civilization can be summed in one phrase -
>
> decimination and subjugation of the Dravidian by the Aryan. Statement 3
> contradicts Statements 1 & 2. If the "Aryans" had subjugated the
> "dravidians", how could there be cultural and linguistic pluralism(S.1)? If
> the "dravidians" had been decimated, how are they the majority today(S.2)?
they would have formed 610% of the population but for the decimation.
don't we realize this elementary fact ?
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <35ec9d16....@news.clara.net>,
11305...@compuserve.com (Mo) wrote:
> There will be no resistance in 'Aryan' India to learning Tamil if it
> was explained that it represents the glorious Dravidian heritage of
> India -the true idol worshipping Hinduism.
dravidians to India is "idol worshipping Hinduism".
> If just one other Dravidian state -Kerala , Karnataka , Andhra
> Pradesh can be persuaded of Tamil's case the Parliament would pass the
> bill making it the third national language tomorrow..
Why should they espouse Thamizh? They will promote their respective
languages (as they rightfully should). I still do not understand how
"official status" of Thamizh is the panacea for all of India's problems.
kann...@mailexcite.com
> was explained that it represents the glorious Dravidian heritage of
> India -the true idol worshipping Hinduism.
> Pradesh can be persuaded of Tamil's case the Parliament would pass the
> bill making it the third national language tomorrow..
>
We are attempting to choose a "Dravidian" language as a National/Official
language. Let them convince me that their languages are more Dravidian than
Tamil or let them Dravidianize their languages completely then I will accept
their language as a Official/National language.
I am asking for a special place for Tamil because of its rich litreture or
antiquity - though on both these categories Tamil can more than easily make
the grade. I am basing it on the fact that it is a purely (unsanskritised)
Dravidian language and is thereby the heritage of millions and millions of
oppressed dark skinned Dravidians right thro' the length and breath of
India.
Most of these Dravidian brothers and sisters all over India are unaware of
their heritage. What is the heritage of Dalits and Backward castes all over
India(including Andhra and Karnataka) - Dasa, dasyu, sudra, candala, asura,
rakshasa and the list goes on. How would it be if they knew it was really -
Dravidian, Indus Valley Civilization, Sivan, Murugan, sangam TAMIL, the great
Thirukural ....(this list goes on and on and on). Learning TAMIL provides a
one step doorway to this rich heritage.
Instead of looking at Tamil as a regional language it is time that we look at
it as the linguistic component of Dravidian heritage.
Kannan
mmuk...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6nc1c0$kg6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> Ethnologists estimate 61% of India 's population is pre Aryan (Dravidian and
> Australoid) 19% Turkish Mongol and only 20% Aryan.
>
Most encyclopaedias I've seen seem to have it the other way around - 2/3
Indo-Aryan, and 1/3 Dravidian - approximately.
> The only exception to this
> rule is the great Dravidian state of Tamilnad. Tamil has undergone
> significant desanskritisation during this century. Tamil is phonetically
> sanskrit free today.
Why is "de-Sanskritization" good? I think Sanskrit has made Malayalam (and
possibly other South Indian languages) richer.
> Today English is the lingua franca of the world. If we want we can
> learn any language. What we must do is identify the right language to learn.
Somebody else compared English and Tamil.. I would say English is the lingua
franca because of its openness and acceptance of foreign influences (in
addition to historical advantages). Tamil's current situation is more similar
to French - a great reluctance in accepting outside influences, an
overemphasis on "purity", basically a siege mentality. (This is not to
reflect on the Tamil people - more a result of the political climate over
there.)
Jim K Jacob
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 mmuk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <6nc1c0$kg6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> >
> > Ethnologists estimate 61% of India 's population is pre Aryan (Dravidian and
> > Australoid) 19% Turkish Mongol and only 20% Aryan.
> >
>
> Most encyclopaedias I've seen seem to have it the other way around - 2/3
> Indo-Aryan, and 1/3 Dravidian - approximately.
The encyclopedias are going more by linguistic than ethnic,
66% of the population of India resides in the northern part
particularly U.P. as they have a overpopulation problem,
Whatever their ethnicity or ancestry they speak a Indo-aryan
language, though their are groups here and their in the north
that do speak a non-indo-aryan language.
> > The only exception to this
> > rule is the great Dravidian state of Tamilnad. Tamil has undergone
> > significant desanskritisation during this century. Tamil is phonetically
> > sanskrit free today.
> Why is "de-Sanskritization" good? I think Sanskrit has made Malayalam (and
> possibly other South Indian languages) richer.
It is good as their is not a dravidian language that is "pure" so
as to preserve it uniqueness. Tamil is the one with the least
Sanskrit so it is easier to purge and so we might know what the
original language of India was. I think the combination found in
Malayalam is a good one, so it would be wrong to de-sankritize
it, though just by having sanskrit in a language doesn't necessarily
make it richer.
> > Today English is the lingua franca of the world. If we want we can
> > learn any language. What we must do is identify the right language to learn.
>
> Somebody else compared English and Tamil.. I would say English is the lingua
> franca because of its openness and acceptance of foreign influences (in
> addition to historical advantages). Tamil's current situation is more similar
> to French - a great reluctance in accepting outside influences, an
> overemphasis on "purity", basically a siege mentality. (This is not to
> reflect on the Tamil people - more a result of the political climate over
> there.)
I think english is a good lingua franc of world at the moment, it
is spoken and understood by a good part of the world, and a good
number more are familiar with it.
Raghu Seshadri
mmuk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: > The only exception to this
: > rule is the great Dravidian state of Tamilnad. Tamil has undergone
: > significant desanskritisation during this century. Tamil is phonetically
: > sanskrit free today.
:
: Why is "de-Sanskritization" good?
Er.. Mr mmukundan, this is an axiom in the
"great dravidian state". You never, ever, question
it. OK ?
By questioning it, you reveal yourself as an
evil neo-nazi brahminist Hitlerite anti-dravidian caste-supremacist
capitalist ! (oops, wrong rhetoric, forget the
capitalist part, but everything else applies.)
Never mind that for 2000 years, none of the great
Tamil poets and literateurs felt the need to
de-Sanskritize; never mind that ALL their great works
use numerous Sanskrit-origin words and phrases
as a matter of course. And also never mind that
there is no evidence that any great literature
has emerged from the pens of those who have
this dogmatic belief in this axiom.
Never mind any of that, it is an axiom,
you gotta believe it if you know what's good
for you !
RS
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6ndtnu$q56$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> We are attempting to choose a "Dravidian" language as a National/Official
> language. Let them convince me that their languages are more Dravidian than
> Tamil or let them Dravidianize their languages completely then I will accept
> their language as a Official/National language.
Do you mean de-sanskritization as dravidianization? Why should they
dravidianize their languages? Sanskrit is well integrated in to the other
dravidian languages. So much so that de-sanskritization might destroy the
language or at the very least diminish the vocabulary significantly. I don't
see any betrayal to their dravidian heritage by adoption of sanskrit. Only
those who see dravidian as a race and exaggerate a cartesian divide between
the "Aryan" and "dravidian" can propose such utter non-sense. Sanskrit has
played a pivotal role in the development of these languages. It is impossible
to just subtract it away. -Vivek.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
> antiquity - though on both these categories Tamil can more than easily make
> the grade. I am basing it on the fact that it is a purely (unsanskritised)
> Dravidian language and is thereby the heritage of millions and millions of
> oppressed dark skinned Dravidians right thro' the length and breath of
> India.
I think most Indian languages have rich literature. As to antiquity among
dravidian languages, Kannada comes close to Thamizh. Also, "pure-ness" of any
language is a myth. Thamizh has borrowed many words from Sanskrit. How can
you prove the "pure-ness" of Thamizh? How do you find a one-to-one
correspondence between caste and language? The only common area is
Socio-linguistics. You are welcome to discuss language in that light.
Besides, the president of India is a dark skinned, dravidian. Modern India
does offer avenues of advancement for all. -Vivek.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6ndtnu$q56$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> Most of these Dravidian brothers and sisters all over India are unaware of
> their heritage. What is the heritage of Dalits and Backward castes all over
> India(including Andhra and Karnataka) - Dasa, dasyu, sudra, candala, asura,
> rakshasa and the list goes on. How would it be if they knew it was really -
> Dravidian, Indus Valley Civilization, Sivan, Murugan, sangam TAMIL, the great
> Thirukural ....(this list goes on and on and on). Learning TAMIL provides a
> one step doorway to this rich heritage.
The very first Kural mentions "Adhi Bhagavan". It should be tainted
according to your reasoning.
> Instead of looking at Tamil as a regional language it is time that we look at
> it as the linguistic component of Dravidian heritage.
It already is. So are Kannada, Telugu and MalayAlam. You reject these
languages as un-dravidian because of the Sanskrit influence.
M. Ranjit Mathews
Mo wrote:
> Excellent post . I think you are pushing against an open door.
> There will be no resistance in 'Aryan' India to learning Tamil if it
> was explained that it represents the glorious Dravidian heritage of
> India -the true idol worshipping Hinduism.
> If just one other Dravidian state -Kerala , Karnataka , Andhra
> Pradesh can be persuaded of Tamil's case the Parliament would pass the
> bill making it the third national language tomorrow..
If you're trying to replace Hindi as an official language with a more
balanced mixture of Indic and Dravidian, I would suggest Gondi :-):-) If
your aim is something else, I don't think it's worth the effort. South
Indians are not particularly inclined towards arriving at a standard
Dravidian language that may be imposed on other Dravidian speakers. It's
much easier to choose a Munda language. Santali has 6 million speakers.
We don't know that the Munda language family is any less old in India
than the Dravidian family. Now, do you think every one should learn
Santali ?
BTW, if would like to restate your case for the preservation of Indian
languages by proposing a scheme that will allow Gonds and Santals (say)
to use Gondi and Santali indefinitely as their primary language of
communication, that would be an interesting scheme to review.
Consider the following case study:
3 illiterate villagers / tribals in Bengal speak Santali, Assami and
Bengali, respectively, at home. The Santali and Assami also have a
command of spoken Bengali, which they use as their link language to
communicate with Bengalis and each other. These 3 villagers decide to
send their children to school. What language(s) should the school use for
its medium of instruction and what other languages should it teach ?
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6ndum0$q...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
Hey Raghu Seshadri, Listen man. Listen. You know what we are up against. Let
me give you a 4000 year Brahminical track record in the Indian sub continent.
Get a damn print out of it and read it before you post/reply to anything
anybody posts or says. Atleast read it before you say anything about
Dravidians. Also send a copy of it to your fanatical Brahminical friends who
even in the late twentieth century defend caste oppression.
I have 'nt seen a single Brahmin write on the net saying that the subjugation
of the Dravidians was a mistake. The only thing you do is to erect monumental
defenses.
BRAMINICAL RECORD OF ANTI DRAVIDIAN ACTIVITIES IN INDIAN HISTORY.
- Destroying Indus Valley Civilization one of the advanced Civilizations at
its time. - Converting the language of the North Indian Dravidians to
Sanskrit. - Killing dark skinned Dravidians in North India. - Introducing the
caste system in North India. - Dividing humans on the basis of color of their
skin. - Bringing the caste system to South India. - Infiltrating and
sanskritising Dravidian languages in South India. (Atleast 3 languages-
Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu have been Sanskritised to a point of no
return). - Making humiliation an aspect of everyday life for Dravidians all
over India for 4000 years. - Attempting to Sanskritise Tamil and almost
succeeding untill being caught red handed by Marai Malai Adigal. -
Introducing superstions in India. - Trying to claim that the Aryan god Vishnu
was superior to our great Dravidian God Siva untill being caught red handed
by the medieval Saivite movement. - Demonizing Dravidians in the Vedas as
Sudras, Rakshasas, Asuras, Candalas, Dasas and Dasyus. - Stealing the
Dravidian God Muruga's temple and making it into Aryan God Venkatachalapathy
in Tirupathi. - Totally destroying Buddhism ( a caste free Indian religion)
reintroducing caste system. - Shooting and ruthlessly killing Mahathma
Gandhi. - ..... - ..... - ..... - ..... - ..... the list goes on and on.
We are up against an order so cruel and evil. If you put things in perspective
you will know that we are just trying to reclaim our civilization and our self
respect. We have no Axioms.
Now Raghu why don 't you go North India and ask the Brahmins there why they
are sanskritising Hindhi. Why are the Brahmins sanskritising kannada? If it
is O.K. for you to sanskritise languages it is OK for us to de-sanskritize
Tamil too. Let us make a beginning in not having one set of standards for us
and one for you.
As for me I have never hated brahmins as human beings. But we will not put up
with casteism and Brahmin domination.
Kannan
Raghu Seshadri
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
: > Er.. Mr mmukundan, this is an axiom in the
: > "great dravidian state". You never, ever, question
: > it. OK ?
: >
: > By questioning it, you reveal yourself as an
: > evil neo-nazi brahminist Hitlerite anti-dravidian caste-supremacist
: > capitalist ! (oops, wrong rhetoric, forget the
: > capitalist part, but everything else applies.)
....
: Get a damn print out of it and read it before you post/reply to anything
: anybody posts or says. Atleast read it before you say anything about
: Dravidians. Also send a copy of it to your fanatical Brahminical friends who
: even in the late twentieth century defend caste oppression.
etc
I thank Mr Kannan for proving my point
so well. I was afraid Mr mmukundan would
have thought I was exaggerating the
mindless nonsense and the relentless hate
propaganda that goes on in the great
dravidian state. Mr Kannan supports me on that
score very well indeed.
Thank you, sir !
RS
Madurai Veeran
Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
<359f2d93....@news.clara.net>...
>On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:04:47 GMT, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>>Instead of looking at Tamil as a regional language it is time that we look
at
>it as the linguistic component of Dravidian heritage.<
> Yes. The Tamil that should be adopted is the Tamil that the
>people of Tamil Nadu want. I think if the Tamil people were able to
>persuade just one other southern state to put forward the idea of
>Tamil as the third national language of India , it could be adopted
>before the millenium and training schemes for the thousands of
>teachers necessary for the country started.
> Maybe for a period of five years the Northern states would go
>in for teaching it voluntarily and then after that it would be
>compulsory. If the Aryans expect the Dravidians to learn Hindi then
>its only fair that they take the trouble to learn Tamil in return..
Lingua franca of India should be English. English afterall, is
a derivative of Sanskrit. Sanksrit loving Aryan descedents
should not have any objection to it. After all knowledge of
English is essential to understand Western science and
technology. And English is no alien language to Indians.
Hindi or any other regional language should have never been the
lingua franca and should never be accepted as India's
lingua franca. Having Hindi as national language has
disadvantaged all those non-Hindi speakers.
Mother tongue should be the second language and it should
be made compulsory. If you want to learn a third language,
suit yourself.
Any other proposition is just adding more dimensions
to the existing language problem of India.
And by the way, Sanksrit should never be allowed to be the
national language of India. Sanksrit, a language that
was kept away from the mainstream public, symbolizes
everything evil in Indian culture. A language that
the scheming brahminists used as a secret language to
communicate only among themselves all their evil designs,
should never be accepted by the common public as their
national language.
Madurai Veeran
M. Ranjit Mathews
Raghu Seshadri wrote:
> - Making humiliation an aspect of everyday life for Dravidians all
> : over India for 4000 years.
More contemporarily, was it a mistake for some Dravidians (say Thevars, Nadars and
Kaunders according to news reports) to make humiliation a part of daily life for
other Dravidians (Dalits) ?
M. Ranjit Mathews
Mo wrote:
> >Indians are not particularly inclined towards arriving at a standard
> Dravidian language that may be imposed on other Dravidian speakers<
> No. Tamil would be additional to the Mother Tongue Malayalam
> etc.
> The Santals would learn English for the science and maths
> classes , bengali for language and literature and maybe history in
> Hindi and geography in Tamil . English has to be the predominant
> language nobody argues with that , but unless you make the medium of
> instruction in some subjects in other languages they will die out.
> Santal can be taught in Santal areas for a couple of lessons a week .
If you restricted Hindi lessons to a couple of periods a week and made
North Indians use other languages for the rest of their school curriculum,
would that preserve or kill Hindi ? If European countries offered courses
in only English, German and Russian for all except 2 periods a week, would
that preserve or kill Europe's diversity ?
> India's diversity needs to be preserved. English is killing it.
Your proposal seeks to kill India's diversity far more effectively. If
implemented tomorrow, the entire Munda language family would become extinct
in a few generations. Other language families would survive, but would have
only a few languages left (4 in the case of the Dravidian family).
How has India's diversity been preserved for the last millenium ? Take a
look at Tamilnadu as a case study. Saurashtris retained their language
because they used it at home and had informal instruction in their
traditional trade of weaving in that language for 1000 years. In addition,
they learnt Tamil as a link language so that they could use it for shopping
in a bazaar (say). Likewise, there were Telugu and Malayalam medium schools
in Tamilnadu till a generation back; they too retained their mother tongue
in addition to learning Tamil as a link language. Likewise with the
Marathis of Tanjore who were originally brought by Ekoji (Sivaji's 1/2
brother), Serfoji, etc.
Taking Bengal as a case study, currently most people speak their mother
tongue of Santali, Assami or whatever and use Bengali as a link language.
If you added English, Hindi and Tamil as mandatory languages, how would
that contribute to their retaining some form of either their mother tongue
or their link language of Bengali a millenium from now ? Is Hindi as the
only Indic language used as a medium of instruction in much of North India
helping to maintain North India's diversity of languages such as Maghi,
Maithili, Braj Basha, Awadhi, Chattisgarhi, Marwari, Thari, Haryanvi,
Kumaoni, Urdu, etc. ?
M. Ranjit Mathews
Madurai Veeran wrote:
> Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> <359f2d93....@news.clara.net>...
> >On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:04:47 GMT, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> >>Instead of looking at Tamil as a regional language it is time that we look
> at
> >it as the linguistic component of Dravidian heritage.<
> > Yes. The Tamil that should be adopted is the Tamil that the
> >people of Tamil Nadu want. I think if the Tamil people were able to
> >persuade just one other southern state to put forward the idea of
> >Tamil as the third national language of India , it could be adopted
> >before the millenium and training schemes for the thousands of
> >teachers necessary for the country started.
> > Maybe for a period of five years the Northern states would go
> >in for teaching it voluntarily and then after that it would be
> >compulsory. If the Aryans expect the Dravidians to learn Hindi then
> >its only fair that they take the trouble to learn Tamil in return..
>
> Lingua franca of India should be English.
Not necessarily. West Europe has 2 lingua francas - English and German. East
Europe also has 2 lingua francas - English and Russian. Likewise, there's
nothing wrong with Hindi continuing to be the lingua franca of North India and
Bengali continuing to be the lingua franca of Northeast India and South India
continuing the practice of a certain proportion of the population knowing the
language of the nearest neighboring state rather than having a common link
language for all of South India.
It's not practicable for a highly centralized Federal agency such as the Indian
Army to use a language other than Hindi. More decentralized agencies such as
the Railways and Postal Service and Income Tax Department should, of course use
a number of languages as necessary. As for the highest levels of industry,
science and technology, it's the captains and high priests of those fields that
largely control what they use as a lingua franca on an all India basis.
> English after all, is a derivative of Sanskrit.
According to a small coterie of Indian historians, at any rate :-):-)
Mo
If you ever read any of my posts , you will realise that far
from being deriding it , I think idol worshipping is the one of the
greatest inventions of humans as it lead to a remarkable development
of culutre - sculpture , dress, music , dance etc.
It is the Tamils who are always going on about being
Dravidian. So if 30-60% of India's population is of Dravidian origin
and I think the figure may well be true than one of the Dravidian
languages deserves to be an official compulsory language to balance
the two Aryan languages of English and Hindi.
On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 16:41:59 GMT, v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
In article <35ec9d16....@news.clara.net>,
11305...@compuserve.com (Mo) wrote:
> There will be no resistance in 'Aryan' India to learning Tamil if it
> was explained that it represents the glorious Dravidian heritage of
> India -the true idol worshipping Hinduism.
Do I sense some derision here? So, you think the ONLY contribution
of
dravidians to India is "idol worshipping Hinduism".
> If just one other Dravidian state -Kerala , Karnataka , Andhra
> Pradesh can be persuaded of Tamil's case the Parliament would pass the
> bill making it the third national language tomorrow..
Why should they espouse Thamizh? They will promote their respective
languages (as they rightfully should). I still do not understand how
"official status" of Thamizh is the panacea for all of India's
problems.
-Vivek.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion
Overlord
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> In article <35ec9d16....@news.clara.net>,
> 11305...@compuserve.com (Mo) wrote:
> the grade. I am basing it on the fact that it is a purely (unsanskritised)
> Dravidian language and is thereby the heritage of millions and millions of
> oppressed dark skinned Dravidians right thro' the length and breath of
> India.
"Oppressed" by whom? This "oppression" mentality
to extract concessions has got to go. I propose that
people be given 2 languages to learn. In the north,
that language can be English and Hindi, and in the
South it can be English + whatever southern language
you wish.
That is the best solution. However keep in mind, that
you will be missing all the great Hindi films and songs.
mmuk...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6nee07$fn3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> Infiltrating and
> sanskritising Dravidian languages in South India. (Atleast 3 languages-
> Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu have been Sanskritised to a point of no
> return).
Point of no return! This attitude is rather insulting to us non-Tamil South
Indians. Your agenda seems to be to replace Hindi domination with Tamil
domination (at least in South India)!
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
> was superior to our great Dravidian God Siva untill being caught red handed
> by the medieval Saivite movement.
are portrayed to be dark-skinned. How do you explain that?
> Dravidian God Muruga's temple and making it into Aryan God Venkatachalapathy
> in Tirupathi.
There is no evidence for this except that Murugan Temples are on top of
hills usually.
> Totally destroying Buddhism ( a caste free Indian religion) reintroducing
caste system. Buddhism died a natural death in India. If it is a brahmanical
conspiracy, how come Jainism (a non-brahmanical) religion is alive and well
in India today? -Vivek.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
The allegations against brahmins are : a) Inventing the "caste system" b)
Using it to dominate and oppress the lower castes. I have already written
about the rationale behind the "varNAshrama Dharma". The caste system evolved
as a corruption of this ideal and as such the upper castes (not just the
brahmins) are responsible for it. If it is an apology you expect, then let me
be the first one to say - sorry. But, the brahmins are not the only ones who
have been ( and are ) casteist. Most of the upper-caste hindus are also
casteist. Also, throughout history, several brahmins (among others) have
opposed the caste system as well (Thiru. RAmAnujar, BhArathyAr in the Tamil
land). Some of the leading lights of the erst-while Justice Party(the parent
organization of the DK) were high caste non-brahmins. Their agenda was just
to bring their respective communities on par with the brahmins. Not the
elimination of casteism. -Vivek.
Mo
Mo
>Indians are not particularly inclined towards arriving at a standard
Dravidian language that may be imposed on other Dravidian speakers<
No. Tamil would be additional to the Mother Tongue Malayalam
etc.
The Santals would learn English for the science and maths
classes , bengali for language and literature and maybe history in
Hindi and geography in Tamil . English has to be the predominant
language nobody argues with that , but unless you make the medium of
instruction in some subjects in other languages they will die out.
Santal can be taught in Santal areas for a couple of lessons a week .
it.
On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:37:44 -0500, "M. Ranjit Mathews"
<ran...@austin.ibm.com> wrote:
Mo wrote:
> Excellent post . I think you are pushing against an open door.
> There will be no resistance in 'Aryan' India to learning Tamil if it
> was explained that it represents the glorious Dravidian heritage of
> India -the true idol worshipping Hinduism.
> If just one other Dravidian state -Kerala , Karnataka , Andhra
> Pradesh can be persuaded of Tamil's case the Parliament would pass the
> bill making it the third national language tomorrow..
If you're trying to replace Hindi as an official language with a more
balanced mixture of Indic and Dravidian, I would suggest Gondi :-):-)
If
your aim is something else, I don't think it's worth the effort. South
Indians are not particularly inclined towards arriving at a standard
Raghu Seshadri
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
: Hey Raghu Seshadri, Listen man. Listen. You know what we are up against. Let
No, I don't.
: me give you a 4000 year Brahminical track record in the Indian sub continent.
: Get a damn print out of it and read it before you post/reply to anything
: anybody posts or says. Atleast read it before you say anything about
: Dravidians. Also send a copy of it to your fanatical Brahminical friends who
: even in the late twentieth century defend caste oppression.
Unfortunately I have no fanatical
brahminical friends. So I cannot send it to anyone.
: I have 'nt seen a single Brahmin write on the net saying that the subjugation
: of the Dravidians was a mistake. The only thing you do is to erect monumental
: defenses.
Then you must be blind, because I have
seen literally hundreds of such statements
written by brahmins.
Just so that you don't repeat this nonsense -
here, I say it - "the subjugation
of the Dravidians was a mistake."
Now, you can never again truthfully
proclaim that you have never seen a single brahmin
write this.
Let me see how truthful you are in the
future.
: BRAMINICAL RECORD OF ANTI DRAVIDIAN ACTIVITIES IN INDIAN HISTORY.
:
: - Destroying Indus Valley Civilization one of the advanced Civilizations at
: its time.
Wrong-o. There is no evidence that the Aryans arrived
within 1000 years of the disappearance of the Indus
Valley Civilization. Current scientific consensus is
that its demise was due to a prodigiously long
drought which lasted 400 years and spanned all the
way from Iraq to the valley.
But don't worry about all this; science is a fraud
concocted by brahmins and aryans, and the great
dravidian land need not bother with it.
- Converting the language of the North Indian Dravidians to
: Sanskrit.
On the contrary, Sanskrit was especially restricted
to be a court and a sacerdotal language; the common man
didn't have much access to it. There is no way
the dravidians' language was converted to Sanskrit.
- Killing dark skinned Dravidians in North India. - Introducing the
Outside our subject, so no comment.
: caste system in North India. - Dividing humans on the basis of color of their
: skin. - Bringing the caste system to South India. - Infiltrating and
Outside our subject, so no comment.
: sanskritising Dravidian languages in South India. (Atleast 3 languages-
: Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu have been Sanskritised to a point of no
: return).
This is true. Why is this bad ? was the question
Mr mmukundan asked. Simply repeating it doesn't
answer his question.
- Making humiliation an aspect of everyday life for Dravidians all
: over India for 4000 years.
Outside our subject, so, rotten as this is,
I withhold comment, not because it is not
true, but because I don't wish to ramble
off topic.
- Attempting to Sanskritise Tamil and almost
: succeeding untill being caught red handed by Marai Malai Adigal. -
:-) Did he have a flashlight ? How exactly
did he get them redhanded ?
Again, why is it bad ?
: Introducing superstions in India. - Trying to claim that the Aryan god Vishnu
: was superior to our great Dravidian God Siva untill being caught red handed
: by the medieval Saivite movement. - Demonizing Dravidians in the Vedas as
: Sudras, Rakshasas, Asuras, Candalas, Dasas and Dasyus. - Stealing the
: Dravidian God Muruga's temple and making it into Aryan God Venkatachalapathy
: in Tirupathi. - Totally destroying Buddhism ( a caste free Indian religion)
: reintroducing caste system. - Shooting and ruthlessly killing Mahathma
: Gandhi. - ..... - ..... - ..... - ..... - ..... the list goes on and on.
The list goes on, unfortunately it is a
totally irrelevant list that is going on,
so I will let it go on and not comment
on it.
Hope your next list is relevant to the
subject.
: We are up against an order so cruel and evil. If you put things in perspective
: you will know that we are just trying to reclaim our civilization and our self
: respect. We have no Axioms.
If writing lies and rambling into
irrelevancies is your way of reclaiming your
civilization, I doubt that anyone will
consider your attempt a success.
: Now Raghu why don 't you go North India and ask the Brahmins there why they
: are sanskritising Hindhi. Why are the Brahmins sanskritising kannada? If it
: is O.K. for you to sanskritise languages it is OK for us to de-sanskritize
: Tamil too. Let us make a beginning in not having one set of standards for us
: and one for you.
Are you under the impression that I,
Raghu Seshadri, am singlehandedly
sanskritizing everything :-)
I wasn't aware that there is any group of
brahmins involved in this Sanskritization
of kannada or whatever today ! Can you
bring evidence for this statement ?
Again (lets see if you follow this),
I have no objection to your deSanskritization.
Go ahead, do whatever you want, even
though your ancestors like Valluvar didn't
see any need to. And they, (unlike you)
fully experienced the brunt of brahmin
supremacy. In your day, it is non-brahmin
supremacy over the brahmin.
Whereas you object to Sanskritization.
So you need to explain why, I don't have
any explaining to do. Do you get this ?
: As for me I have never hated brahmins as human beings. But we will not put up
: with casteism and Brahmin domination.
AGain an irrelevancy. The topic is Sanskritization of
Tamil, or deSanskritization, not casteism or brahmin
domination.
RS
:
: Kannan
:
:
: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
mani...@hotmail.com
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > Dravidian God Muruga's temple and making it into Aryan God Venkatachalapathy
> > in Tirupathi.
>
> There is no evidence for this except that Murugan Temples are on top of
> hills usually.
vEnkata mountains are traditionally held to be northern boundary of the Tamil
country and Tamils have referred to these sacred mountains since at least the
Sangam era. (TolkAppiyam and CilapatikAram mention it). Murugan is the God of
Kurinci land (Hills and valleys) and it makes sense that if the Tamils were
going to build a temple on a hill they are going to build one for Murugan and
not Thirumaal, the TAMIL god of the Mullai land. There really may have been a
shrine for Murugan on top of the Thirumalai in the distant past.
But this surmise doesn't prove that the temple that Saint Ramanujar found on
the Thirumalai was a Murugan temple or a Saivaite temple. Alwars who predate
Saint Ramanjuar make explicit reference to the Lord of Tiruvenkatam (poigai
Alwar, bhuthathu Alwar and pEy Alwar) in addition to the later Alwars.
However, there are reasons to suspect that it may have been an Aruhan temple
(Jain) as well as a Buddhist shrine. When Saint Ramanujar came to the feet of
the Lord of the Hills, it wasn't at all obvious what temple it was, and he saw
the Idol as the manifestation of Thirumaal.
It was not unusual in the medieval Tamil Nadu to convert existing Buddha
Pallis and Jain temples into Saivaite shrines. Every Saaththun (Shasta)
temple became either a Ganapathi temple or an Ayyappan temple. Even within
the perimeters of modern Kaamaatchi temple in Kanchi, they still keep finding
Buddhist relics. Today we take it for granted that under every Arasamaram
there will be a Pillaiyaar. It was not always so. Arasamaram stood for the
Bodhi tree and there were probably Buddhist shrines under most of those. So
it is quite possible that the temple at Thirumalai may have been built for
some deity other than Thirumaal. But I have not heard of a single instance
of Vaishnavaites taking over any Saivaite temple or vice the versa. So, if
any of you are aware of historical evidence that it happened or even a
legend, I am interested.
Venkatachalapathy merely means "Lord of the Venkata Hills" as does
Venkateswaran, one of the other names of the Lord. Tamils also address the
Lord as perumAL, a common name for Thirumaal in the Tamil country. I am not
sure why the Lord of the Thirumalai should be considered an Aryan God. If
anything, one can make the argument that Lord Shiva is a northern god, what
with his abode being the Himalayas and all that. And one can make a very
persuasive argument that Thiruvainavam is essentially a Tamil centered pan-
Indian religion. This summary of reducing all of the religious thought of
India as essentially an Aryan vs Dravidian war is dangerously simplistic and
is quite insulting to those illustrious ancestors.
Mani M. Manivannan
Fremont, CA, USA.
Raghu Seshadri
Madurai Veeran (Madurai...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: And by the way, Sanksrit should never be allowed to be the
: national language of India. Sanksrit, a language that
: was kept away from the mainstream public, symbolizes
: everything evil in Indian culture. A language that
: the scheming brahminists used as a secret language to
: communicate only among themselves all their evil designs,
: should never be accepted by the common public as their
: national language.
Is there a move to make Sanskrit the
national language ? I am not aware of any;
this seems to be a nightmare only in your
mind, Mr Veeran. There is no such move,
you are safe now, please come out, breathe
deeply and calm yourself.
Wouldn't it look odd if I went around
screaming " India should never accept German
as our national language ! It is the language of the
Nazis ! It is evil !!" etc etc, when there
is no move by anyone proposing such
a thing ? :-)
Any obsession, untempered by reason, leads
to nuttiness in the long run. Whether the
obsession is religion, or language or
whatever.
RS
pallavan
Sanskrit is the only common component in all Indian languages. I do not know it
is used as a secret language. The problem is politics not the Sanskrit. English
cannot be the common language to Indians because only few thousand people know
English. Tamil politics lead to cocoonize the Tamils in India. Look at your
neighbouring Kerala. They study Hindi and another language. Keralites are now
good examples of Indian literate. You talk of brahmanists. Why can not the
Tamils master Sanskrit?
Madurai Veeran wrote:
> Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> <359f2d93....@news.clara.net>...
> Lingua franca of India should be English. English afterall, is
> a derivative of Sanskrit. Sanksrit loving Aryan descedents
> should not have any objection to it. After all knowledge of
> English is essential to understand Western science and
> technology. And English is no alien language to Indians.
>
> Hindi or any other regional language should have never been the
> lingua franca and should never be accepted as India's
> lingua franca. Having Hindi as national language has
> disadvantaged all those non-Hindi speakers.
>
> Mother tongue should be the second language and it should
> be made compulsory. If you want to learn a third language,
> suit yourself.
>
> Any other proposition is just adding more dimensions
> to the existing language problem of India.
>
> And by the way, Sanksrit should never be allowed to be the
> national language of India. Sanksrit, a language that
> was kept away from the mainstream public, symbolizes
> everything evil in Indian culture. A language that
> the scheming brahminists used as a secret language to
> communicate only among themselves all their evil designs,
> should never be accepted by the common public as their
> national language.
>
> Madurai Veeran
M. Ranjit Mathews
pallavan wrote:
> Sanskrit is the only common component in all Indian languages. I do not know it
> is used as a secret language. The problem is politics not the Sanskrit. English
> cannot be the common language to Indians because only few thousand people know
> English.
11 million in 1961. 40 million or so today. There's no common language to all
Singaporeans or all Belgians either. 70% of Indians, however, speak 2 languages and
30% speak 3, which gives them something in common with neighboring Indians.
> Tamil politics lead to cocoonize the Tamils in India. Look at your
> neighbouring Kerala. They study Hindi and another language. Keralites are now
> good examples of Indian literate. You talk of brahmanists. Why can not the
> Tamils master Sanskrit ?
Do you want your maid and coolie's children to mandatorily learn Sanskrit or at any
rate flunk a year if they can't master it ? Are all Europeans required to master
Latin ? There is no common language to all Indians. In any case, where are you
going to find a Sanskrit or Hindi teacher in Udumalpet, Pollachi, Bhavani,Vandavasi
or Tirunelveli ? It would be like telling Zimbabweans that they all have to learn
Arabic and sending them scrambling to find Arabic teachers.
who...@my-dejanews.com
In article <359ddfe4....@news.clara.net>,
11305...@compuserve.com (Mo) wrote:
>
> If you ever read any of my posts , you will realise that far
> from being deriding it , I think idol worshipping is the one of the
> greatest inventions of humans as it lead to a remarkable development
I heard the greatest invention of humans is wheel.
Tamil
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I
> > rakshasa and the list goes on. How would it be if they knew it was really -
> > Dravidian, Indus Valley Civilization, Sivan, Murugan, sangam TAMIL, the great
> > Thirukural ....(this list goes on and on and on). Learning TAMIL provides a
> > one step doorway to this rich heritage.
>
> The very first Kural mentions "Adhi Bhagavan". It should be tainted
> according to your reasoning.
>
aadhi_pagavan. pagavan has been explained as different from
Bhagavan by many Tamil scholars. padi_aLappavan.
paguththu_vazhangupavan. iRaivan the same.
> > Instead of looking at Tamil as a regional language it is time that we look at
> > it as the linguistic component of Dravidian heritage.
> It already is. So are Kannada, Telugu and MalayAlam. You reject these
> languages as un-dravidian because of the Sanskrit influence.
> -Vivek.
Sanskr
pira...@hotmail.com
>
kannan_s was putting on a reasonable face. Now the mask is off. He turns out
to be yet another bigot... That's a disappointment. I thought he was
proferring new ideas (however odd they may sound) - but he's just another
anti-Brahmin Dravidian fascist.
> Sudras, Rakshasas, Asuras, Candalas, Dasas and Dasyus. - Stealing the
> Dravidian God Muruga's temple and making it into Aryan God Venkatachalapathy
> in Tirupathi. -
You are just ignorant. There are significant numbers of brahmins who worship
Shiva and Muruga. Most Tamil Iyers consider themselves as Saivites, for
example. So Brahmins have NO REASON to "plot" against Shiva or Muruga. As for
calling Venkatachalapathy an Aryan god... tell that to the millions of
Telugus and Tamils who worship in Tirupathi.
Talk about paranoia!
> are sanskritising Hindhi. Why are the Brahmins sanskritising kannada? If it
I think Tamil Dravidian extremists need to understand one thing - their view
of Sanskrit == Brahmin and Brahmin == Sanskrit is not shared among other
states - including other South Indian states. Sanskrit is well integrated in
their languages, and there are plenty of non-Brahmin literary figures in
those states that contribute to the development of those languages - many of
whom are also Sanskrit scholars.
P. I. Ramanan
EMPIRE B.C.B.S.
How about a true national language of Hindi where thousands of words from
Tamil and other southern Indian states are incorporated. If Hindi can
contain Arab words, Persian words, etc. why not more native southern Indian
words? This attempt at a unified language might just work by finally not
alienating the true remaining Hindus in the south any longer. A new
national language can be made if we tried hard enough.
Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in article
<359f2d93....@news.clara.net>...
> On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:04:47 GMT, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> >Instead of looking at Tamil as a regional language it is time that we
look at
> it as the linguistic component of Dravidian heritage.<
Raghu Seshadri
EMPIRE B.C.B.S. (sha...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: How about a true national language of Hindi where thousands of words from
: Tamil and other southern Indian states are incorporated. If Hindi can
: contain Arab words, Persian words, etc. why not more native southern Indian
: words? This attempt at a unified language might just work by finally not
: alienating the true remaining Hindus in the south any longer. A new
: national language can be made if we tried hard enough.
A truly original idea, and it is not
infeasible in theory. You will, however,
have to overcome the stiff resistance of
the politicians whose careers are based on
the language divisions, and their dupes.
Not an easy task. I commend your creative
solution.
RS
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6neu9s$694$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, mani...@hotmail.com wrote:
> vEnkata mountains are traditionally held to be northern boundary of the Tamil
> country and Tamils have referred to these sacred mountains since at least the
> Sangam era. (TolkAppiyam and CilapatikAram mention it). Murugan is the God of
> Kurinci land (Hills and valleys)
CilapatikAram does mention ThiruvEnkatam. It says "ThAmarai Marban Kidantha
vannam". How does that refer to Murugan? The only argument for a Murugan
temple is by the "Kurinci KadavUl" argument you have mentioned above. There
definitely seems to be a possiblity of a buddhist shrine. The practice of
tonsure and wearing saffron are considered to be buddhist practices. It is
interesting that these do not exist any other Vaishnava temple(AFAIK). It
could have been an ancient vaishnava temple that was taken over by the
buddhists. D.C. Ahir mentions the medieval bhakti movement taking over many
buddhist shrines in his book "Buddhism in South India". But, what he leaves
out conveniently is that the buddhists themselves have appropriated several
non-buddhist temples. -Vivek.
thiruna...@my-dejanews.com
> Madurai Veeran wrote:
>
> > Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > <359f2d93....@news.clara.net>...
> > >On Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:04:47 GMT, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > >>Instead of looking at Tamil as a regional language it is time that we look
> > at
> > >it as the linguistic component of Dravidian heritage.<
> > > Yes. The Tamil that should be adopted is the Tamil that the
> > >people of Tamil Nadu want. I think if the Tamil people were able to
> > >persuade just one other southern state to put forward the idea of
> > >Tamil as the third national language of India , it could be adopted
> > >before the millenium and training schemes for the thousands of
> > >teachers necessary for the country started.
> > > Maybe for a period of five years the Northern states would go
> > >in for teaching it voluntarily and then after that it would be
> > >compulsory. If the Aryans expect the Dravidians to learn Hindi then
> > >its only fair that they take the trouble to learn Tamil in return..
> >
> > Lingua franca of India should be English. English afterall, is
> > a derivative of Sanskrit. Sanksrit loving Aryan descedents
> > should not have any objection to it. After all knowledge of
> > English is essential to understand Western science and
> > technology. And English is no alien language to Indians.
> >
> > Hindi or any other regional language should have never been the
> > lingua franca and should never be accepted as India's
> > lingua franca. Having Hindi as national language has
> > disadvantaged all those non-Hindi speakers.
> >
> > Mother tongue should be the second language and it should
> > be made compulsory. If you want to learn a third language,
> > suit yourself.
> >
> > Any other proposition is just adding more dimensions
> > to the existing language problem of India.
> >
> > And by the way, Sanksrit should never be allowed to be the
> > national language of India. Sanksrit, a language that
> > was kept away from the mainstream public, symbolizes
> > everything evil in Indian culture. A language that
> > the scheming brahminists used as a secret language to
> > communicate only among themselves all their evil designs,
> > should never be accepted by the common public as their
> > national language.
> >
> > Madurai Veeran
>
>
When the southern states are not ready to share their river waters, I do not
know how they would accept Tamil as Lingua Franca! Even the latest Dravidian
University started at the behest of Mr.Chandra Babu Naidu in Kuppam does not
seperate any single language, but it collectively sees as Dravidian languages
(Tamil, Telugu, Kannada & Malayalam). Just like the possiveness for the river
waters, the language also has mixed in the blood stream of the people, and
nobody can alter that so easily.
When the derivative of Sanskrit (English) is acceptable as Lingua Franca, why
not the main stream language of Sanskrit itself be accepted as the National
Language? If it is made as the National Language it shall be among the main
stream public and whatever evil designs that were created could be smashed
off! When the evil designs of the Brahminists are there to break all by
itself, why people would not come forward to break it, and learn the language
which has immense knowledge, to all the people?
Has the language created any inferiority complex among a section of people who
call themselves "core-Dravidians"?
When almost all the European Universities (especially German) has a Department
of Sanskrit Studies, we Indians should be ashamed that not even a handful of
the Universities in the Language's homeland offer the same.
The word "Sanskrit" itself means 'the way to live'
Surely Sanskrit will show us a better way of life, if chosen as our national
language.
THIRUNARAYANAN
M. Ranjit Mathews
Raghu Seshadri wrote:
Not an original idea. Espranto is an example. If you want such a language, try
Gondi (2 million speakers), whose closest major relatives are Telugu and MP
dialects of Hindi.
Raghu Seshadri
Gondi it is then. Works for me .
RS
:
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6ngbvr$da$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
pira...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <6nee07$fn3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > BRAMINICAL RECORD OF ANTI DRAVIDIAN ACTIVITIES IN INDIAN HISTORY.
> >
>
> kannan_s was putting on a reasonable face. Now the mask is off. He turns out
> to be yet another bigot... That's a disappointment. I thought he was
> proferring new ideas (however odd they may sound) - but he's just another
> anti-Brahmin Dravidian fascist.
Read thro' all my postings. I don't have any masks. I am a Tamil Dravidian. I
am staunchly opposed to Brahminism as I believe any right thinking human
being must be.
Your friend called Dravidians in Tamilnadu as people who live by axioms. I
wanted to give him a list of things he must remind himself before he posts
rubbish like that.
I don t think that there is anything wrong with my above comment. Ofcourse
the Brahmins as leaders of the Aryan people did awfull things in their 4000
years history to the Dravidian people. The history books are full of it, the
Vedas are full of it and if you are conscientious people your hearts should
be full of it. Mr.P.I.Ramannan, I just don't think you care. Have you made
one posting so far against Brahmin domination. Did you ever say once brahmins
did awfull things so far in Indian history. Never. Because you just don't
care.
Can you Mr.P.I.Rammanan make a list of all the awfull things Brahmins as
leaders of the Aryans did to Dravidians in the last 4000 years of Indian
history. Please do it. If you are not able to do it naturally atleast - yes
wear a mask and do it. You believe deeply you were not wrong. I am not asking
for revenge but I am looking for acknowlegement. The Germans accept that what
they did to the Jews was wrong. You fellows don't. You pursue your self
interest with single minded determination. What a shame.
Kannan
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <01bda5db$4a52c080$6f0e...@p17687.empirebcbs.com>,
"EMPIRE B.C.B.S." <sha...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> How about a true national language of Hindi where thousands of words from
> Tamil and other southern Indian states are incorporated. If Hindi can
> contain Arab words, Persian words, etc. why not more native southern Indian
> words? This attempt at a unified language might just work by finally not
> alienating the true remaining Hindus in the south any longer. A new
> national language can be made if we tried hard enough.
One that encompasses most Indian languages and is written in Latin script (to
solve the script issues). We can make phonetic modifications to the script and
make it cursive enough for modern usage. This has been done in Turkey.
-Vivek.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <359B96...@nortel.ca>,Tamil <kkri...@nortel.ca> wrote:
> aadhi_pagavan. pagavan has been explained as different from
> Bhagavan by many Tamil scholars. padi_aLappavan.
> paguththu_vazhangupavan. iRaivan the same.
Well, the Thamizh script does not make the distinction between "P" and "B".
Hence, "Bhagavan" could very well be read as "pagavan". I don't know the
etymology of "Bhagavan" or "pagavan" but atleast superficially it seems to
refer to "God", that too by a "sanskritic" word. My question is, would Mr.
Kannan consider this to be treachery on ThiruValluvar's part? -Vivek.
K. Srinivasan
M. Ranjit Mathews wrote in message <359AFFFF...@austin.ibm.com>...
>Raghu Seshadri wrote:
>
>> - Making humiliation an aspect of everyday life for Dravidians all
>> : over India for 4000 years.
>
>More contemporarily, was it a mistake for some Dravidians (say Thevars,
Nadars and
>Kaunders according to news reports) to make humiliation a part of daily
life for
>other Dravidians (Dalits) ?
>
Hey, come on! Our concern for Dalits is only to win votes.
To be successful in that, we can only blame Brahmins
and fan-up hatred against them whether they do any harm
to Dalits today or not. Condemning the other powerful castes
that you mentioned for the attrocities they commit on Dalits will
cost us votes. Anyways, those poor souls are doing
all these bad things to Dalits only because they are misled
by Manu, a Brahmin.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
Thiruna...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> When the derivative of Sanskrit (English) is acceptable as Lingua Franca, why
> not the main stream language of Sanskrit itself be accepted as the National
> Language?
Interesting proposition. I have thought about this one myself. Except for
some notable exceptions, I think it is fair to say that sanskrit has
influenced majority of the Indian Languages. The rationale of making Hindi
the national language is to have a Sanskritized version of the popular
Hindustani which is written in the Nagari script. The Indian Constitution
clearly directs the development of Hindi on Sanskritic lines. I wonder why
they did not choose to have Sanskrit itself as the National language. Was it
considered to be too elitist or brahmanical? Was it rejected becuase it was a
"dead" language? Was there any opposition from the conservative, upper-caste
folks who did not want the "deva bhAshA" to become public? I think Savarkar
proposed Sanskrit to be the national language. -Vivek.
kann...@mailexcite.com
Mr.Thirunarayanan, this is the first time I see someone pleading for Sanskrit
on the net who agrees that the Brahmins have done evil things.
Congratulations Sir. Otherwise the general trend out here is this - "if you
said brahmins have done awfull things in history" on the net then you are a
Dravidian bigot.
Kannan
In article <6ngqs4$ov7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> When the derivative of Sanskrit (English) is acceptable as Lingua Franca, why
> not the main stream language of Sanskrit itself be accepted as the National
> Language? If it is made as the National Language it shall be among the main
> stream public and whatever evil designs that were created could be smashed
> off! When the evil designs of the Brahminists are there to break all by
> itself, why people would not come forward to break it, and learn the language
> which has immense knowledge, to all the people?
>
> Has the language created any inferiority complex among a section of people who
> call themselves "core-Dravidians"?
>
> When almost all the European Universities (especially German) has a Department
> of Sanskrit Studies, we Indians should be ashamed that not even a handful of
> the Universities in the Language's homeland offer the same.
>
> The word "Sanskrit" itself means 'the way to live'
>
> Surely Sanskrit will show us a better way of life, if chosen as our national
> language.
>
> THIRUNARAYANAN
>
M. Ranjit Mathews
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <01bda5db$4a52c080$6f0e...@p17687.empirebcbs.com>,
> "EMPIRE B.C.B.S." <sha...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > How about a true national language of Hindi where thousands of words from
> > Tamil and other southern Indian states are incorporated. If Hindi can
> > contain Arab words, Persian words, etc. why not more native southern Indian
> > words? This attempt at a unified language might just work by finally not
> > alienating the true remaining Hindus in the south any longer. A new
> > national language can be made if we tried hard enough.
> Quite possible. I remember someone saying that we can create a new prakrit.
> One that encompasses most Indian languages and is written in Latin script (to
> solve the script issues). We can make phonetic modifications to the script and
> make it cursive enough for modern usage. This has been done in Turkey.
> -Vivek.
To some extent, it's just a matter of grammar and vocabulary. It's possible to
contrive a scheme where a common collection of roots/stems taken from Hindi,
Tamil and English is used to construct a vocabulary for each of the three
languages, and sentences constructed in any of the languages by drawing from its
vocabulary and applying the language's grammatical rules. It might be a trifle
contrived, but not unworkable.
Raghu Seshadri
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
: Your friend called Dravidians in Tamilnadu as people who live by axioms. I
: wanted to give him a list of things he must remind himself before he posts
: rubbish like that.
But that list had nothing to do with the
subject, so your reminding was totally useless.
It is like reminding me about world war 2
when we are discussing the second law of
thermodynamics.
And you didn't explain why what I said was
rubbish. In fact you didn't address my point
at all. You went off into your pet topic,
and now you are pretending that you wrote
something sensible.
: I don t think that there is anything wrong with my above comment. Ofcourse
: the Brahmins as leaders of the Aryan people did awfull things in their 4000
: years history to the Dravidian people. The history books are full of it, the
: Vedas are full of it and if you are conscientious people your hearts should
: be full of it. Mr.P.I.Ramannan, I just don't think you care. Have you made
: one posting so far against Brahmin domination. Did you ever say once brahmins
: did awfull things so far in Indian history. Never. Because you just don't
: care.
See, this guy is at it again. I told him
that the old oppressions were bad, Mr Ganesan told
him it was bad, but he just pretends that no one
agrees with him that it was bad. Even if mr Ramanan
agrees it was bad, he will not change his tune
or his rhetoric. He knows only one tune, so he will
play that tune even after it has stopped becoming
relevant.
I think he doesn't know the answer to the
question that Mr mmukundan asked, so he is
writing some stuff that he knows about, like
a poor student tries to fill up pages when he
doesn't know the answer.
: Can you Mr.P.I.Rammanan make a list of all the awfull things Brahmins as
: leaders of the Aryans did to Dravidians in the last 4000 years of Indian
: history. Please do it. If you are not able to do it naturally atleast - yes
: wear a mask and do it. You believe deeply you were not wrong. I am not asking
: for revenge but I am looking for acknowlegement. The Germans accept that what
: they did to the Jews was wrong. You fellows don't. You pursue your self
: interest with single minded determination. What a shame.
What a shame that you can write only one
post no matter what the subject :-)
Here, I acknowledge that I personally
oppressed millions over thousands of years :-)
Now that acknowledgement is over,
please answer the question, if you know how.
RS
Jim K Jacob
I see that you said only "Hindus" in the south is the audience you
are trying to reach when you say a national language with more
dravidian words. Why Only Hindus?! A good portion of the south is
not Hindu, are they not indian also? would a language not effect them too?
Those are irresponsible words Mo, that is why India will continue
with its fractious violence and politics, and why unity is a hard
thing to reach!
On Fri, 3 Jul 1998, Mo wrote:
> Thousands may be too much , but certainly if Hindi inspires to
> be a national language then it has to take in hundreds from other
> languages of India..
>
>
> On 2 Jul 1998 17:14:36 GMT, "EMPIRE B.C.B.S." <sha...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>
> How about a true national language of Hindi where thousands of words
> from
> Tamil and other southern Indian states are incorporated. If Hindi can
> contain Arab words, Persian words, etc. why not more native southern
> Indian
> words? This attempt at a unified language might just work by finally
> not
> alienating the true remaining Hindus in the south any longer. A new
> national language can be made if we tried hard enough.
That is quite offending Mo, there is a higher percentage of
non-hindus in the south than the north, more non-hindu dravidians
percentage wise than as opposed to non-hindu northners. Why are
you trying to use "divide" tactics? You could learn a lot from
us southerners, who as opposed to the north, despite our petty fights
here and there, are lot more peaceful and harmonious, and that is with
more non-hindus in the region. I wonder what that says about the north?
> Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in article
Jim K Jacob
I second that request!
I agree Mr. Kannan!
On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> In article <6ngbvr$da$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> pira...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <6nee07$fn3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > BRAMINICAL RECORD OF ANTI DRAVIDIAN ACTIVITIES IN INDIAN HISTORY.
> > >
> >
> > kannan_s was putting on a reasonable face. Now the mask is off. He turns out
> > to be yet another bigot... That's a disappointment. I thought he was
> > proferring new ideas (however odd they may sound) - but he's just another
> > anti-Brahmin Dravidian fascist.
>
> Read thro' all my postings. I don't have any masks. I am a Tamil Dravidian. I
> am staunchly opposed to Brahminism as I believe any right thinking human
> being must be.
>
> Your friend called Dravidians in Tamilnadu as people who live by axioms. I
> wanted to give him a list of things he must remind himself before he posts
> rubbish like that.
>
> I don t think that there is anything wrong with my above comment. Ofcourse
> the Brahmins as leaders of the Aryan people did awfull things in their 4000
> years history to the Dravidian people. The history books are full of it, the
> Vedas are full of it and if you are conscientious people your hearts should
> be full of it. Mr.P.I.Ramannan, I just don't think you care. Have you made
> one posting so far against Brahmin domination. Did you ever say once brahmins
> did awfull things so far in Indian history. Never. Because you just don't
> care.
>
> Can you Mr.P.I.Rammanan make a list of all the awfull things Brahmins as
> leaders of the Aryans did to Dravidians in the last 4000 years of Indian
> history. Please do it. If you are not able to do it naturally atleast - yes
> wear a mask and do it. You believe deeply you were not wrong. I am not asking
> for revenge but I am looking for acknowlegement. The Germans accept that what
> they did to the Jews was wrong. You fellows don't. You pursue your self
> interest with single minded determination. What a shame.
>
> Kannan
Raghu Seshadri
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
: Mr.Thirunarayanan, this is the first time I see someone pleading for Sanskrit
: on the net who agrees that the Brahmins have done evil things.
: Congratulations Sir. Otherwise the general trend out here is this - "if you
: said brahmins have done awfull things in history" on the net then you are a
: Dravidian bigot.
What a liar. That the caste system with the brahmins
on top caused a lot of injustices to the "lower" castes
is so well-known it doesn't need repeating, and
no one has denied it at all. Mr Kannan just wants
to repeat his pet subject ad nauseum as
he doesn't seem to know about anything else.
No matter how many people agree with the fact that
he is harping on, he will never let go of
claiming that no brahmin is admitting it.
Because once he does that, he will have to
talk about something else, and that is a problem.
RS
RS
Sanskrit is the only common component in all Indian languages. I do not know it is used as a secret language.
The problem is politics not the Sanskrit. English
cannot be the common language to Indians because only few thousand people know English.
Tamil politics lead to cocoonize the Tamils in India. Look at your neighbouring Kerala. They study Hindi and another language. Keralites are now good examples of Indian literate.Why is then, the hindi speaking heartlands of UP, MP and Bihar are poor and with a low litercy rate ?
You talk of brahmanists. Why can not the Tamils master Sanskrit?
How many non-Tamil Indians have mastered sanskrit ?
RS
Mo
Thousands may be too much , but certainly if Hindi inspires to
be a national language then it has to take in hundreds from other
languages of India..
On 2 Jul 1998 17:14:36 GMT, "EMPIRE B.C.B.S." <sha...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
How about a true national language of Hindi where thousands of words
from
Tamil and other southern Indian states are incorporated. If Hindi can
contain Arab words, Persian words, etc. why not more native southern
Indian
words? This attempt at a unified language might just work by finally
not
alienating the true remaining Hindus in the south any longer. A new
national language can be made if we tried hard enough.
Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in article
Y. Malaiya
sha...@mindspring.com wrote:
> How about a true national language of Hindi where thousands of words from
> Tamil and other southern Indian states are incorporated. If Hindi can
> contain Arab words, Persian words, etc. why not more native southern Indian
> words? This attempt at a unified language might just work by finally not
> alienating the true remaining Hindus in the south any longer. A new
> national language can be made if we tried hard enough.
Hindi, and even Sanskrit contains many words of Dravidian origin. They
have become such a native part of Sanskrit/Hindi that only experts
can identify them as having originated from Dravidian (Tamil).
In general it would be very hard to separate the "Aryan" and "Dravidian"
components of Indian Culture.
Yashwant
Madurai Veeran
Raghu Seshadri wrote in message <6nejsr$k...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>...
>kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
>
>Wrong-o. There is no evidence that the Aryans arrived
>within 1000 years of the disappearance of the Indus
>Valley Civilization. Current scientific consensus is
>that its demise was due to a prodigiously long
>drought which lasted 400 years and spanned all the
>way from Iraq to the valley.
>
>But don't worry about all this; science is a fraud
>concocted by brahmins and aryans, and the great
^^^^^^^
>dravidian land need not bother with it.
>
No wonder science in India stinks Mr. Seshadri.
And that kind of science, as you say, dravidian land
should not bother with. All that aryan-ness, you seem
to be so proud of, appears only to have contributed
to the atrophy of creative thinking of the people
of the dravidian land.
And by the way,
>: sanskritising Dravidian languages in South India. (Atleast 3 languages-
>: Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu have been Sanskritised to a point of no
>: return).
>
>This is true. Why is this bad ? was the question
>Mr mmukundan asked. Simply repeating it doesn't
>answer his question.
>
[1] Sanskrit has always been claimed to be a language
of the 'aryan' outsiders, invented for the sole
purpose of maintaining their 'aryan' culture,
knowledge(?) and philosophy(?) among themselves.
[2] Sanksrit was a medium of expression of that
'aryan-ness' and whatever prerogatives claimed
for possessing that knowledge.
[3] Sanskrit's worshippers are primarily brahmins
and in all these 4000 years, they never wanted
their encryption language to become mainstream
language.
[4] There is no reason to believe that
Sanskritization of the Dravidian languages took
place to remedy the deficiencies of the native
Dravidian languages. It was the reluctance of
those newly arrived 'aryans' to adapt to the language
and culture of their new homeland, coupled with
the dominant social position that they worked out
for themselves that led to the Sanskritization of
those Dravidian languages. This was not enrich the
language, but to create a sense of inferiority
complex. In the Tamil homeland,those 'aryans' had
a much more humbling experience and the Tamils
resisted such attempts and continue to do so.
[5] Sanskrit is a stunted moribund language. A language
confined to few has no chance of developing in a way to
be of use to everyone. And for that very reason,
today it is a dead language and Tamil, a language
of comparable age, is not. If Sanskrit was/is a
vibrant language it would not have died out.
[6] Sanskrit is a constant reminder of the evils of
Hindu society. A foreign import, whose sole purpose was
to conceal the scheming machinations of the
conniving few from the priestly class. Sanskrit is a
vestigial baggage of the infamous brahminical Hindu past.
[7] The more the brahmins clamor for resusitation of
Sanskrit, the more the reason to be wary of the
hidden agenda.
Madurai Veeran
Madurai Veeran
pallavan wrote in message <359B8E14...@centtel.com>...
>Sanskrit is the only common component in all Indian languages.
As usual you are making a nonsensical statement, without any knowledge.
> I do not know it
>is used as a secret language.
You should find out before you make tall claims. Nothing wrong in
being a Sinhalese of pure aryan descent. You can still contribute
to meaningful discussion.
> The problem is politics not the Sanskrit.
Sanskrit was politics. A very ancient politics.
> English
>cannot be the common language to Indians because only few thousand people
know
>English.
Again you do not know a thing and still insist on making statements.
> Tamil politics lead to cocoonize the Tamils in India.
As usual, wrong here.
> Look at your
>neighbouring Kerala. They study Hindi and another language.
If you want to learn Hindi, please do so. And you can claim to be
a good example of Indian(?) literate.
> Keralites are now
>good examples of Indian literate.
You seem to have no grasp of what is being discussed here.
>You talk of brahmanists. Why can not the
>Tamils master Sanskrit?
>
My dear fella. You have no clue. Tamils are masters of Sanskrit.
Let me make a request. Please avoid posting claims that you
can not substantiate.
Madurai Veeran
Madurai Veeran
Raghu Seshadri wrote in message <6nlmq0$n...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>...
>Madurai Veeran (Madurai...@pacbell.net) wrote:
>: No wonder science in India stinks Mr. Seshadri.
>: And that kind of science, as you say, dravidian land
>: should not bother with. All that aryan-ness, you seem
>: to be so proud of, appears only to have contributed
>: to the atrophy of creative thinking of the people
>: of the dravidian land.
>
>There are so many things wrong with what you say,
>I don't know where to begin.
As usual, you have removed the context of my previous
statement.
>
>I don't recall saying I am proud of aryan-ness,
>so don't know where you got that. Do you always have
>to imagine things, to bolster your nonexistent case ?
>
>There are n't different kinds of science. There is only
>one kind. And if it says there is no evidence Aryans
>killed off Indus valley civilization, yo have to
>accept that, even if yu are a great dravidian :-)
I am not disputing the arguments against an aryan
invasion that was supposed to have wiped out the
Indus valley civilization. Whether all those evidences
quoted for such an argument do really follow the
rigors scientific proof is an open question. Certainly,
the reason you quoted is not the only one.
>
>(funny list deleted)
>
>None of these "points" address the issue again.
>I am coming to the conclusion that you don't have
>anything to say on the subject, so you keep going
>to your pet brahmin vs nonbrahmin issue, which has
>been flogged to stupor.
>
>Btw, your last "point" is very funny. I didn't know
>grown men could harbor such childish notions.
>
>RS
Here is more 'funny stuff' to humor Mr. R.Seshadri.
Question:
Why is "de-Sanskritization" good? I think Sanskrit has made Malayalam (and
possibly other South Indian languages) richer? -- from Mukundan.
Reason:
Thanks to Meenan Vishnu for posting the following
on Indology discussion group.
AUTHOR, ETC.: Walker, George Benjamin, 1913-
TITLE: The Hindu world; an encyclopedic survey of Hinduism
by Benjamin Walker.
IMPRINT: New York, Praeger [c1968]
Excerpts from the above book.
--begin quote--
The period of Brahminical revival was the age that fixed the
criterion for every subsequent interpretation of Hindu life
and culture. It was the time when the ancient Indian traditions
as they existed in the regional languages were taken over,
adapted to the priestly bias and hammered into the new mould
of Sanskrit. Into the sacred tongue the earlier tomes were
transcribed for the deification of brahmins and the damnation
of sudras. Under heavy pressure of brahmin orthodoxy the
indigenous writings were first sanskritized and then the whole of
Sanskrit literature brahminized.
It was in many ways a calamitous substitute. Local nomenclature was
altered to fit the Sanskrit alphabet; native sentiments were put
through the mill of Sanskrit syntax, and a great deal of indigenous
material irretrievably lost.
Interpretations of pre-Sanskrit and what might be called `un-Sanskrit'
life were further distorted by wilful tendentiousness that shaped into
orthodox form the mythology, history and even the geography of ancient
India. Its corruptions crept into the regional languages by its
insistence on its own sanctity and stilted rules.
And in most cases it debased what it influenced. The noble early poetry
of Tamil, characterized by simplicity and realism, never recovered its
freshness after contact with Sanskrit, and Tamil literature was
thereafter subjected to the artificialities of the northern tongue.
Practically every vernacular literature has suffered in like manner
as long as it lay under the influence of Sanskrit influence.
--end quote--
"
Madurai Veeran
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6ngr8j$k...@news.or.intel.com>,
Yes you folks are right. Dalits are being oppressed on a day to basis by
other upper castes all over India not just brahmins. Yes you are also right
that from a historical standpoint this is a result of the Brahminical caste
order - Manu Dharma. But this kind of discrimination and oppression is not
carried out by educated people. I am not saying that education alone would
solve it. It could help significantly. I have overwhelming faith in the power
of spirituality. What was done by religion could be undone by it. I am
particularly impressed with the role of Buddhism in removing caste barriers
in Indian history.
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6nehhl$7...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
>
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> : > Er.. Mr mmukundan, this is an axiom in the
> : > "great dravidian state". You never, ever, question
> : > it. OK ?
> : >
> : > By questioning it, you reveal yourself as an
> : > evil neo-nazi brahminist Hitlerite anti-dravidian caste-supremacist
> : > capitalist ! (oops, wrong rhetoric, forget the
> : > capitalist part, but everything else applies.)
>
> ....
> : Get a damn print out of it and read it before you post/reply to anything
> : anybody posts or says. Atleast read it before you say anything about
> : Dravidians. Also send a copy of it to your fanatical Brahminical friends who
> : even in the late twentieth century defend caste oppression.
> etc
>
> I thank Mr Kannan for proving my point
> so well. I was afraid Mr mmukundan would
> have thought I was exaggerating the
> mindless nonsense and the relentless hate
> propaganda that goes on in the great
> dravidian state. Mr Kannan supports me on that
> score very well indeed.
>
Where is the mindless nonsense and relentless hate in those 4 lines. I did
'nt call you names, I did 'nt say anything derogatory, I was just not being
polite. You said we Dravidians live by axioms. Humans don 't live by axioms
only automatons do. If you likened us to automatons then you don't deserve to
be spoken to politely. I think some of you (like a few others here on the net
) suffer from a persecution complex.
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6nh6r1$a...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
Sanskrit
> : on the net who agrees that the Brahmins have done evil things.
> : Congratulations Sir. Otherwise the general trend out here is this - "if you
> : said brahmins have done awfull things in history" on the net then you are a
> : Dravidian bigot.
>
> What a liar. That the caste system with the brahmins
> on top caused a lot of injustices to the "lower" castes
> is so well-known it doesn't need repeating, and
> no one has denied it at all. Mr Kannan just wants
> to repeat his pet subject ad nauseum as
> he doesn't seem to know about anything else.
>
Hey Raghu,
Then why the heck are you on the net. Hanging out and doing this high octane
defense?
kann...@mailexcite.com
Hey Raghu,
Here is the answer to your question
> : Why is "de-Sanskritization" good?
>
It is how we seek to self identify ourselves. It is how we see ourselves. Who
are Tamils - we are Dravidians. More importantly we are not Aryans. Why is it
so important that we are not Aryans. Because we have been subjugated and
oppressed by Aryans. Removing elements of Aryan culture and since it is
possible - language - is in a sense we regain our self respect and dignity.
Is that wrong Raghu?
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6nejht$n5r$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
mmuk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <6nee07$fn3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > sanskritising Dravidian languages in South India. (Atleast 3 languages-
> > Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu have been Sanskritised to a point of no
> > return).
>
> Indians. Your agenda seems to be to replace Hindi domination with Tamil
> domination (at least in South India)!
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
In retrospect, I think I should not have used the phrase "point of no return".
It was wrong and I am sorry.
Personally I have nothing against any language. All languages of the world
are great languages. Tamil also had some Sanskrit in it which was removed
during this century. Other South Indian languages cannot remove Sanskrit
without giving up their essential charecteristic. It is not necessary that
they should. They are just as great in the present form.
But when we talk of a common Dravidian heritage - Tamil in a non Sanskritised
form is more reflective of that heritage.
pira...@hotmail.com
Re: National Language, etc.
In article <6np6l0$son$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> Yes you folks are right. Dalits are being oppressed on a day to basis by
> other upper castes all over India not just brahmins.
In Tamil Nadu, I don't think there's any Dalit being oppressed by Brahmins.
> But this kind of discrimination and oppression is not
> carried out by educated people.
How do you know? Is there any survey? In any case, I don't see how this point
is relevant... Brahmins alone are being blamed in SCT for caste oppression.
That's the issue the original poster is raising.
P. I. Ramanan
pira...@hotmail.com
Re: National Language - Dravidian Perspective etc.
In article <6nguj6$u80$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> I am staunchly opposed to Brahminism as I believe any right thinking human
> being must be.
'Brahminism' is a pseudo-word invented to blame Brahmins for all caste-related
problems. You yourself slipped into attacking Brahmins, starting off with
attacking 'Brahminism'.
>
> I don t think that there is anything wrong with my above comment.
There's plenty wrong with your laundry list of Brahmin crimes.
1) You produced this list in order to associate a specific person
with the real and imagined crimes committed by members of his caste
in the past. This notion of associating a person with past generations
and discriminating against that person is at the core of Tamil Nadu's
reservation system today.
2) Secondly, by listing various 'atrocities' and holding all Brahmins
responsible for them, you are indulging in fascist scapegoating methods.
There was no evidence cited in your post pointing to Brahmins as being
guilty parties, nor was there any evidence cited connecting those Brahmins
(if they were responsible) with the current generation. Nor was there any
proof of a centuries-old conspiracy being carried out by the Brahmin
community. Issues like the decline of Buddhism and the murder of Gandhi are
complex, and you used them to blame current-day Tamil Brahmins who have
NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE ISSUES.
> Have you made
> one posting so far against Brahmin domination.
I don't see any Brahmin domination in Tamil Nadu. As for the past, certainly
I condemn the casteism practiced by my ancestors. I also condemn the
anti-Brahmin casteism being practiced by many posters in SCT.
Will you condemn the excesses of the Dravidian movement?
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6npbo1$7nt$1...@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>,
"Madurai Veeran" <Madurai...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> I am not disputing the arguments against an aryan
> invasion that was supposed to have wiped out the
> Indus valley civilization. Whether all those evidences
> quoted for such an argument do really follow the
> rigors scientific proof is an open question.
Indological scholars are divided over the question of the Aryan presence in
India. Even though the invasion theory has gone out of vogue, many scholars
(mostly non-Indians) still argue an immigration of Aryan tribes in to India.
On the other hand, there are several scholars(mostly Indian) who favor an
indigenous origin of the vedic Aryans. Both of these schools use "scientific"
means to prove their claim. We cannot know for sure until the Indus valley
script is deciphered. Until then, claims of "Scientific proof" will be a
vague generalization. After all, even those who favored the invasion theory,
a mere century ago, bolstered their claims by "scientific" evidence. -Vivek.
Raghu Seshadri
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
: > What a liar. That the caste system with the brahmins
: > on top caused a lot of injustices to the "lower" castes
: > is so well-known it doesn't need repeating, and
: > no one has denied it at all. Mr Kannan just wants
: > to repeat his pet subject ad nauseum as
: > he doesn't seem to know about anything else.
:
: Hey Raghu,
: Then why the heck are you on the net. Hanging out and doing this high octane
: defense?
I don't understand your second sentence. About your first -
do you mean to say only people who turn everything into
a caste war deserve to be on the net ?
RS
Raghu Seshadri
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
: Where is the mindless nonsense and relentless hate in those 4 lines. I did
: 'nt call you names, I did 'nt say anything derogatory, I was just not being
: polite.
The hate is in referring to my caste in a discussion that
had nothing to do with it. The hate is in not being polite
when issues should be discussed, not persons.
: You said we Dravidians live by axioms. Humans don 't live by axioms
: only automatons do. If you likened us to automatons then you don't deserve to
: be spoken to politely. I think some of you (like a few others here on the net
: ) suffer from a persecution complex.
There are several things wrong here.
"we dravidians" is one error. There is no such thing
as dravidians as if it is a separate race. It isn't.
Secondly, everyone deserves to be spoken to politely.
Politeness is not a favor you do to others, it is
the way you advertize your own level of culture.
I lose nothing by your impoliteness, but you have
broadcast to the world your culture and upbringing.
Thirdly I have never been persecuted by anyone, and
I hate or resent no one. The overwhelming emotion in my
heart is one of compassion for others, but for this,
my mental state is one of amusement at the comedy
that this life shows in its multifaceted hues.
Fourth, none of this has any relevance to the topic
under "discussion" about which you have said nothing
so far.
RS
:
: Kannan
:
: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Raghu Seshadri
Madurai Veeran (Madurai...@pacbell.net) wrote:
: I am not disputing the arguments against an aryan
: invasion that was supposed to have wiped out the
: Indus valley civilization. Whether all those evidences
: quoted for such an argument do really follow the
: the reason you quoted is not the only one.
In other words, you will continue to believe
whatever you want to believe, even though the
best available scientific evidence doesn't support
it :-)
This is what is known as an unscientific approach,
dogmatism, prejudice, being a prisoner to conventional
thinking etc, which in its extreme ugly form
leads to fanaticism.
: Here is more 'funny stuff' to humor Mr. R.Seshadri.
:
: Question:
:
: Why is "de-Sanskritization" good? I think Sanskrit has made Malayalam (and
: possibly other South Indian languages) richer? -- from Mukundan.
:
: Reason:
Once again , a non-answer. The question is not whether
Tamil should be given up in favor of Sanskrit. Mr Veeran's
paranoia has departed the confines of reason.
RS
Raghu Seshadri
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
: Hey Raghu,
: Here is the answer to your question
: > : Why is "de-Sanskritization" good?
: >
:
: It is how we seek to self identify ourselves. It is how we see ourselves. Who
: are Tamils - we are Dravidians. More importantly we are not Aryans. Why is it
: so important that we are not Aryans. Because we have been subjugated and
: oppressed by Aryans. Removing elements of Aryan culture and since it is
: possible - language - is in a sense we regain our self respect and dignity.
: Is that wrong Raghu?
I thank you , Kannan, for initiating a reasonable
dialog. But our earlier exchanges lead me to request
the following - 1) Will you demonstrate an open mind
on the question or is it already made up ?
2) Can you assure me you will not get sidetracked into
talking about my caste origin etc, and just focus
on the issues ?
If you can proffer the assurances I need, we can have
a useful dialog, otherwise I feel it would be a total
waste.
Regards,
RS
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6nr9b5$mc8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
pira...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Re: National Language, etc.
> In article <6np6l0$son$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> >
>
>
> In Tamil Nadu, I don't think there's any Dalit being oppressed by Brahmins.
>
If the intent of this comment is to exculpate responsibility then you are a
bad man.
kann...@mailexcite.com
> > I am staunchly opposed to Brahminism as I believe any right thinking human
> > being must be.
>
> 'Brahminism' is a pseudo-word invented to blame Brahmins for all caste-related
> problems. You yourself slipped into attacking Brahmins, starting off with
> attacking 'Brahminism'.
To the extent I use the term Brahmin - I mean it to be perpetrators and
sustainers of the caste system.
> > I don t think that there is anything wrong with my above comment.
>
> There's plenty wrong with your laundry list of Brahmin crimes.
>
> 1) You produced this list in order to associate a specific person
> with the real and imagined crimes committed by members of his caste
> in the past. This notion of associating a person with past generations
> and discriminating against that person is at the core of Tamil Nadu's
> reservation system today.
Let me tell you something Mr.P.I.Ramannan. I am classified as forward caste
in Tamilnadu 's reservation system and I am not a Brahmin. But every posting
I made is against caste oppression. I have made postings arguing in favour of
reservation.
> Will you condemn the excesses of the Dravidian movement?
Absolutely. I believe the Dravidian movement has(or may be is still) in a
reactionary phase. I think it should evolve into a constructive phase. I
think it and many other like minded parties/social reform groups have a major
role to play in India.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6nr8c9$kpo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> But when we talk of a common Dravidian heritage - Tamil in a non Sanskritised
> form is more reflective of that heritage.
I think it is very self-serving to speak of Thamizh as a "pure" dravidian
language. I don't agree that de-sanskritized thamizh is the proto-typical
dravidian language. MalayAlam, for instance, contains many old thamizh words
which are no longer present in spoken(even written) thamizh (words like
"vili"-call, "kazhi"-consume etc.). Sanskrit(for better or worse) has been
an integral part of the development of literary forms of Kannada, Telugu and
MalayAlam. But, that does not betray their dravidian roots. An off-spring of
a black American man and a White American woman, may not be black(literally)
but is still considered to be African-American. You cannot just take the
"white" part out and make the child a "pure" black one. Besides, even the
Sanskrit influence in Thamizh is considerable. How do you propose to
eradicate that? -Vivek.
Jim K Jacob
I totally agree with you Mr. Kannan,
Where in the world other than India is there a dravidian group
of languages?!
Indo-aryan is related to a group spread from europe to north India!
We are a unique group found no where in the world except in India, and
now we are to be wiped out by these fanatics masquerading as nationalists,
who say that India needs a indo-aryan face so subject the non-aryans
to this indo-aryan culture! What is it going to take before we dravidians
unite and try to take back our status and our culture! We need to
teach all the low-castes in the south and the north that they are the
original indians, and they should feel no inferiority to people who sought
to build there nations on our brothers sweat and blood!
NO man is less than another man(or woman for you P.C. people!)
HOw did this heresy ever enter our land and why have we put up with
it for this long.
We need a AWAKENING!
On Mon, 6 Jul 1998 kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> Hey Raghu,
> Here is the answer to your question
> > : Why is "de-Sanskritization" good?
> >
>
> It is how we seek to self identify ourselves. It is how we see ourselves. Who
> are Tamils - we are Dravidians. More importantly we are not Aryans. Why is it
> so important that we are not Aryans. Because we have been subjugated and
> oppressed by Aryans. Removing elements of Aryan culture and since it is
> possible - language - is in a sense we regain our self respect and dignity.
> Is that wrong Raghu?
>
> Kannan
Jim K Jacob
M. Ranjit Mathews
Balaji Gadhiraju wrote:
> Jim K Jacob wrote:
> >
> > I totally agree with you Mr. Kannan,
> > Where in the world other than India is there a dravidian group
> > of languages?!
>
> I believe there is a langauge called Brahui in Pakistan.
and Kurukh in Nepal.
> For complete list of dravidian langauges checkout:
>
> http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/families/Dravidian.html
>
> There is lot of info about all the languages in the world at this
> site:
>
> http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/
>
> --
> balaji.
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6nptto$4...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
sesh...@cse.ucsc.edu (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
>
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> : Hey Raghu,
> : Here is the answer to your question
> : > : Why is "de-Sanskritization" good?
> : >
> :
> : It is how we seek to self identify ourselves. It is how we see ourselves.
Who
> : are Tamils - we are Dravidians. More importantly we are not Aryans. Why is
it
> : so important that we are not Aryans. Because we have been subjugated and
> : oppressed by Aryans. Removing elements of Aryan culture and since it is
> : possible - language - is in a sense we regain our self respect and dignity.
> : Is that wrong Raghu?
>
> dialog. But our earlier exchanges lead me to request
> the following - 1) Will you demonstrate an open mind
> on the question or is it already made up ?
> 2) Can you assure me you will not get sidetracked into
> talking about my caste origin etc, and just focus
> on the issues ?
>
> If you can proffer the assurances I need, we can have
> a useful dialog, otherwise I feel it would be a total
> waste.
>
> Regards,
> RS
>
I usually don't get into bickerings. But if you say something funny about
Dravidians I won 't take it and keep quite. I will give you back. Yes you can
have a dialog with me. I always have an open mind and am willing to listen.
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6nrg52$1g1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <6nr8c9$kpo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > But when we talk of a common Dravidian heritage - Tamil in a non
Sanskritised
> > form is more reflective of that heritage.
>
> an integral part of the development of literary forms of Kannada, Telugu and
> MalayAlam. But, that does not betray their dravidian roots. An off-spring of
> a black American man and a White American woman, may not be black(literally)
> but is still considered to be African-American. You cannot just take the
> "white" part out and make the child a "pure" black one. Besides, even the
> Sanskrit influence in Thamizh is considerable. How do you propose to
> eradicate that? -Vivek.
>
>
If your father is black and your mother is white you sure cannot take the
white part out. But you should 'nt ask your father to be your brother just
because he is black. Why should you be ashamed of having a black father?
Balaji Gadhiraju
Jim K Jacob wrote:
>
> I totally agree with you Mr. Kannan,
> Where in the world other than India is there a dravidian group
> of languages?!
I believe there is a langauge called Brahui in Pakistan.
For complete list of dravidian langauges checkout:
pira...@hotmail.com
Re: National Language etc.
In article <6nrhjj$3vn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> To the extent I use the term Brahmin - I mean it to be perpetrators and
> sustainers of the caste system.
That is not how it sounded in your 'laundry list'. That list is a standard
compendium of lies, exaggerations, and half-truths that has been used to
harass Brahmins in TN. Also, you just can't keep re-assigning meanings to
words which have other meanings. Anyway, now that you've clarified it - it
doesn't seem that offensive.
> > Will you condemn the excesses of the Dravidian movement?
>
> Absolutely. I believe the Dravidian movement has(or may be is still) in a
> reactionary phase. I think it should evolve into a constructive phase. I
> think it and many other like minded parties/social reform groups have a major
> role to play in India.
Glad to hear this.
P. I. Ramanan
pira...@hotmail.com
Re: National Language, etc.
In article <6nrf5k$v99$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > In Tamil Nadu, I don't think there's any Dalit being oppressed by Brahmins.
> >
>
> If the intent of this comment is to exculpate responsibility then you are a
> bad man.
The intent is to bring a dose of reality to the discussion. A stranger to
Tamil culture & politics reading SCT for the last few years would think that
Brahmins currently play a dominant role in Tamil Nadu, oppress everyone else,
control everything etc. In many ways, SCT is frozen at the turn of the
century, in the 1900s, while we are marching on towards the twenty-first
century.
mmuk...@my-dejanews.com
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.98070...@Bayou.UH.EDU>,
Jim K Jacob <jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU> wrote:
>
>
> I totally agree with you Mr. Kannan,
> Where in the world other than India is there a dravidian group
> of languages?!
Indeed we should be proud of the Dravidian language group and its
literary heritage, which is second to none.
But the issue at hand seems to be that Mr. Kannan wants a special status
for Tamil - a sort of "more equal among equals" - within the Dravidian
language group.
kann...@mailexcite.com
In article <6ntj5p$e7o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
If you realise that Tamil is not just a regional language but at the very
foundation of Indian civilization (the original language of India spoken by
the Dravidians) it would'nt be difficult to give that status Mr.Mukkundan.
Japanese culture is of Chinese origin but the only country the Japanese
revere even today is China. Since Indian culture is of dual origin -
Dravidian and Aryan and because we have a history of Aryan subjugation we are
culturally conditioned to value Aryan over Dravidian. (the Great Dravidian
state of Tamilnad being an exception). We must change that. Then it is easier
to accept Tamil.
I want people to change their outlook, unlearn their predominant modes of
responding and thinking. Then accepting Tamil will be more easier not among
Dravidian languages alone but in the nation as well.
Kannan
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6ns1bn$pr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> If your father is black and your mother is white you sure cannot take the
> white part out. But you should 'nt ask your father to be your brother just
> because he is black. Why should you be ashamed of having a black father?
I did not get the logic of the "brother" part, Mr. Kannan. Besides, there
might be a few southerners who are ashamed of their dravidian heritage. There
are also many southerners who identify with the "Aryan" past of India. But,
are they the representative sample of all south Indians? I don't have to
prove my dravidian pride by vitriolic hatred towards all things "Aryan" in
India. My dravidian-ism stems from my language, my heritage and my culture.
It is up to the individuals to define their own identity. Even the slightest
knowledge of Dravidian history will speak volumes about its greatness. As
such, most people who are aware of this, do not hide it. So, why are we
fighting ghosts? -Vivek.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6ntpdc$p6n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> If you realise that Tamil is not just a regional language but at the very
> foundation of Indian civilization (the original language of India spoken by
> the Dravidians) it would'nt be difficult to give that status Mr.Mukkundan.
There is no evidence for this. BTW, can you prove that the Indus/Saraswati
valley people spoke Thamizh/proto-Thamizh? Scholars are divided over the
language issues of Anicent India. We won't know for sure until the ISV script
is deciphered.
> Japanese culture is of Chinese origin but the only country the Japanese
> revere even today is China.
Japanese don't like chinese and koreans. They are quite xenophobic. It is
true that several aspects of japanese culture originated in China but
japanese do not identify with chinese.
> Since Indian culture is of dual origin -
> Dravidian and Aryan and because we have a history of Aryan subjugation we are
> culturally conditioned to value Aryan over Dravidian. (the Great Dravidian
> state of Tamilnad being an exception). We must change that.
If you are saying that most people would like to be "Aryan" in India then
you have a point. But, special status for Thamizh alone will not change that.
kann...@mailexcite.com
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <6ns1bn$pr$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > If your father is black and your mother is white you sure cannot take the
> > white part out. But you should 'nt ask your father to be your brother just
> > because he is black. Why should you be ashamed of having a black father?
>
> I did not get the logic of the "brother" part, Mr. Kannan. Besides, there
> might be a few southerners who are ashamed of their dravidian heritage. There
> are also many southerners who identify with the "Aryan" past of India. But,
> are they the representative sample of all south Indians? I don't have to
> prove my dravidian pride by vitriolic hatred towards all things "Aryan" in
> India. My dravidian-ism stems from my language, my heritage and my culture.
> It is up to the individuals to define their own identity. Even the slightest
> knowledge of Dravidian history will speak volumes about its greatness. As
> such, most people who are aware of this, do not hide it. So, why are we
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
Tamil and Sanskrit form the foundatation of other South Indian languages. All
I am saying is the speakers of these languages should 'nt say that they did
not evolve from Tamil.
Kannan
kann...@mailexcite.com
kann...@mailexcite.com
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <6ntpdc$p6n$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> > If you realise that Tamil is not just a regional language but at the very
> > foundation of Indian civilization (the original language of India spoken by
> > the Dravidians) it would'nt be difficult to give that status Mr.Mukkundan.
>
> There is no evidence for this. BTW, can you prove that the Indus/Saraswati
> valley people spoke Thamizh/proto-Thamizh? Scholars are divided over the
> language issues of Anicent India. We won't know for sure until the ISV script
> is deciphered.
>
> > Japanese culture is of Chinese origin but the only country the Japanese
> > revere even today is China.
>
> Japanese don't like chinese and koreans. They are quite xenophobic. It is
> true that several aspects of japanese culture originated in China but
> japanese do not identify with chinese.
You are right on the korean stuff. But they regard China as a place where
their culture came from.
>
> > Since Indian culture is of dual origin -
> > Dravidian and Aryan and because we have a history of Aryan subjugation we
are
> > culturally conditioned to value Aryan over Dravidian. (the Great Dravidian
> > state of Tamilnad being an exception). We must change that.
>
> If you are saying that most people would like to be "Aryan" in India then
> you have a point. But, special status for Thamizh alone will not change that.
> -Vivek.
At last we are getting somewhere. Most people in India would like to be Aryan
despite their culture and ethnicity being essentially Dravidian. Why this
partiallity? Why be ashamed? Learning Tamil could be a doorway to Dravidian
heritage. What better ideas do you have.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
> At last we are getting somewhere. Most people in India would like to be Aryan
> despite their culture and ethnicity being essentially Dravidian. Why this
> partiallity? Why be ashamed? Learning Tamil could be a doorway to Dravidian
> heritage. What better ideas do you have.
For starters, regional identities have served as bulwarks against
homogeneity. Please remember that all this "Aryan" stuff (as well as the
"dravidian" stuff) are essentially Nineteenth century concepts. I think that
some nationalists and revivalists pounced on the Aryan Race theory and used
it to glorify India's hoary past. Their motive is not dissimilar to what our
drAvidavAdis did with respect to the Sangam era etc. If you are arguing for
constructing a national identity that is not based on Race, I am with you.
This could very well be the constructive role of the dravidian movement that
you had mentioned in an earlier post. But, if the intention is to strike a
deep wedge between Indians, I would oppose that. -Vivek.
v_ga...@my-dejanews.com
> > > revere even today is China.
> >
> > Japanese don't like chinese and koreans. They are quite xenophobic. It is
> > true that several aspects of japanese culture originated in China but
> > japanese do not identify with chinese.
>
> You are right on the korean stuff. But they regard China as a place where
> their culture came from.
Most Japanese consider Japan and everything Japanese to have descended from
Sun-God. I doubt if they "revere" China. Japanese soldiers committed heinous
crimes against Chinese civilians during WWII. Were they acts of "reverence"?
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Re: National Language, etc.
> In article <6nrf5k$v99$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
>
> > > In Tamil Nadu, I don't think there's any Dalit being oppressed by Brahmins.
> > >
> >
> > If the intent of this comment is to exculpate responsibility then you are a
> > bad man.
>
> The intent is to bring a dose of reality to the discussion. A stranger to
> Tamil culture & politics reading SCT for the last few years would think that
> Brahmins currently play a dominant role in Tamil Nadu, oppress everyone else,
Of course! Karunanidhi's doctor is Brahmin so Brahmins must be dominant :-)
> control everything etc. In many ways, SCT is frozen at the turn of the
> century, in the 1900s, while we are marching on towards the twenty-first
> century.
>
> P. I. Ramanan
>
Raghu Seshadri
:
: I usually don't get into bickerings. But if you say something funny about
: Dravidians I won 't take it and keep quite. I will give you back. Yes you can
: have a dialog with me. I always have an open mind and am willing to listen.
:
: Kannan
First off, I do not make fun of entire groups,
only those specific persons or subgroups that
are guilty of something. Therefore this caveat
on your part is quite unnecessary.
This groupism is what I find so pernicious;
people are ready to find fault with all members
of a group as if everyone of them is guilty.
It is laughable that you should think I will
do the same bad thing that I deplore in others.
Secondly, groups like aryans and dravidians
do not exist today. These historical groups
have not retained their identity, anymore than
Vikings or Normans or Saxons. You are no more
a Dravidian than Mr Churchill is a Saxon
or Hitler and I are aryans.
RS
M. Ranjit Mathews
> I totally agree with you Mr. Kannan,
> Where in the world other than India is there a dravidian group
> of languages?!
> Indo-aryan is related to a group spread from europe to north India!
> We are a unique group found no where in the world except in India, and
> now we are to be wiped out by these fanatics masquerading as nationalists,
> who say that India needs a indo-aryan face so subject the non-aryans
> to this indo-aryan culture!
Perfection is hard to find. Time averaging of progress sometimes works for the best.
One government makes this quantum of progress, the next government makes that
quantum, and so on. If you're afraid of the BJP, they don't have the mandate
(majority) to subject half-breeds (most of us "non-aryans" are mongrels) to very
much. All they have the mandate to do is beef up India a little on the defense front
and look the other way (just like previous governments) when this hothead or that
incites a group of vigilantes to some hotheaded act or the other. It's admittedly
not a perfect state of affairs, but not having better choices, the question is
whether India will be (in some respect or the other) better off when the next
government takes office.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> i think that is fair enough. One Dravidian language should
> represent the Dravidian culture just as Hindi represents the Aryan
> one.
Official languages have nothing to do with culture. They are either
working languages of organizations or languages for people to interact
with organizations. This is not to say that the official language does
not have a cultural aspect to it, but rather that it's unnecessary to
focus on the cultural aspects of a language in order for it to be used as
a working language. For example, Tamilians joining the Indian Armed
Forces use Hindi without learning Tulsidas, Kabir, Rahim or Premchand.
Likewise, scientists and technicians joining ISRO use English without
dwelling unduly on Hardy, Shakespeare, Dickens, Byron or Milton. As for
interaction, Singaporeans interact with their government in any one of
the official languages, as do Belgians and Swiss.
> This Dravidian language in my opinion should be Tamil , but
> the Dravidians should agree amongst themselves and that languageshould
> be compulsory for all Aryans to learn..
I can't imagine speakers of Dravidian languages ganging up and agreeing
on which language they should impose on each other, let alone upon Indic
(Indo-Aryan) language speakers, especially when they (except Karnataka)
haven't yet imposed their own language on linguistic minorities in their
own states. Tamilnadu doesn't impose Tamil, Kerala doesn't impose
Malayalam and Andhra doesn't impose Telugu. Likewise, Singapore doesn't
impose Chinese.
> On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 16:42:33 GMT, mmuk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.95q.98070...@Bayou.UH.EDU>,
> Jim K Jacob <jja...@Bayou.UH.EDU> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I totally agree with you Mr. Kannan,
> > Where in the world other than India is there a dravidian group
> > of languages?!
>
Raghu Seshadri
: revere even today is China. Since Indian culture is of dual origin -
: Dravidian and Aryan and because we have a history of Aryan subjugation we are
: culturally conditioned to value Aryan over Dravidian. (the Great Dravidian
: state of Tamilnad being an exception).
What Mr Kannan does not seem to have noticed
is that , many centuries before he was born,
the aryan and dravidian streams had fused
together to such an extent that even experts
cannot tell which was which anymore. There is
fair evidence that vegetarianism, yoga, the
muni tradition, carnatic music, classical dance
etc were all of dravidian origin. All these
joined the great Indian mainstream two thousand
years ago. Yet Mr Kannan pretends that he can
discern a distinction that great scholars
have failed to find :-)
This socalled aryan-dravidian divide is an
error. There is no such thing. Calling TN the
"great dravidian" is like calling modern Swedes
the "great Vikings". Except for a certain
misplaced nostalgia, these words are meaningless
in today's context.
The sooner modern Indians come out of mytho-
historic fogs and face the present, the better off
they would be.
RS
Raghu Seshadri
: At last we are getting somewhere. Most people in India would like to be Aryan
: despite their culture and ethnicity being essentially Dravidian. Why this
: partiallity? Why be ashamed? Learning Tamil could be a doorway to Dravidian
: heritage. What better ideas do you have.
A better idea would be to learn how much of
India's culture is a true intermingling, and
how much India and hinduism owe to the
dravidian heritage. And how little "racial"
divisions matter in today's life. After
educating oneself on all this, one can propagate
this knowledge to others.
This way, you'd be in a better position to
achieve your aims, as you yourself would have
come to appreciate your heritage in full
measure.
Parochialism, divisiveness, empty feelings
of superiority based on myth, harping on
nonexistent racial groupings etc are not likely
to lead to your goals.
RS
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Tamil and Sanskrit form the foundatation of other South Indian languages. All
> I am saying is the speakers of these languages should 'nt say that they did
> not evolve from Tamil.
Only Malayalam evolved from Tamil (not from today's Tamil of course). Kodagu is
Tamil's cousin, Kannada an even more distant cousin and Tulu a still more distant
cousin. Telugu is not descended from Tamil, although Proto-Dravidian is their
common ancestor.
Balaji Gadhiraju
>
> On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:29:00 GMT, kann...@mailexcite.com wrote:
> .If you realise that Tamil is not just a regional language but at the
> very
> foundation of Indian civilization (the original language of India
> spoken by
> the Dravidians) it would'nt be difficult to give that status <
> select one language to be the national language of India , it will be
> accepted in the North -there was no resistance to Telugu in Haryana
> for example.
> Once Hindi and Tamil become co-equal the real enemy -English
> which is killing all Indian languages and culture can be tackled..
You haven't answered how this is going to help Telugu.
Also why leaving the third language to the student's choice is
not a better idea?
Does your suggestion mean we are abandoning english? If not
what difference it makes?