Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof request.
Ganesan
3/27/97
Hi Friends,
I have a tamil poem by Kirubananda Variyar in the same tune of
"Jana Gana Mana Adhinaayaka ...", our national anthem.
Variyar (of course. who else will he sing?) praises Murugan
of aaRu paDai veeDu in that song.
In the high school days, I have heard a spoof on our national anthem.
a gentle mockery. It has words like " ... iDli, vaDai, saambaar ..."
in the tune of "Jana gana mana ...". A gentle mocking imitation.
If anyone remembers, please mail it to me.
Thanks,
N. Ganesan
nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
***********************************************************************
This morning, I translated a classic haiku.
A child is crying,
asking, "Get it down for me!"
- the full moon hanging.
Issa, (1763-1823), Edo period poet of Japan
azhutha kuzhanthai vizhainthathu - "vaanil
ezhuthingaL thaa, thanakku" enRu.
kuRal by N. Ganesan
nilaac cORu uuTTal, ambuliyai viLaiyaaDa azhaiththal -
nam marabukaL allavO?!
Keywords:
Gopala Ganesh
Hi Arasu!
Superb! Just loved it and laughed my guts out!!
Please post other such gems that you might have picked up from the
wonderful heartland of TN!!!
In my humble opinion, let us have MUCH, MUCH MORE of such things and less
of you know what in SCT!
- ganesh
V. Chandramouli
Let alone the spoof, I wonder how many people can sing the national anthem
correctly. Upon reading this post I tried singing the anthem and I must
admit wasn't smooth sailing the first time. I remembered the melody but the
words were rusty. After a few agonizing, embarrassing moments, I mananged to
get the whole thing out. I felt rather low I must admit. But more objectively
speaking, without any sentimental feeling, it is like any other thing you learn.
If you don't use it for a while, things do get rusty. I have never had
the occassion to sing or hear the anthem in the last 5 years. But this reasoning
appears specious to me for some reason :-)
This song is based on the Shankarabharnam scale which should come as no surprise.
Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
Anyway, since these questions are not related to Indian classical music, perhaps
an email to vcha...@eecs.umich.edu would be better. Maybe I can look it up
in the library but it is easier to ask :-)
thanks,
--Chandramouli
lindires
In rec.music.indian.classical Arasu Chellaiah <ar...@pharmdec.wustl.edu> wrote:
> In article <5hbdn5$8...@cisu2.jsc.nasa.gov>, nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
> (Ganesan) wrote:
{snipped}
The tamizh spoof was really hilarious. Could some one kindly post the
original to help me sing the tamil spoof in tune and enjoy a little
more.
thanks,
Vishnupriya
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
V. Chandramouli (vcha...@dip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
: was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
: chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
About this song being composed to honour King George
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is lie spread by RSS and other vested interests.
I
found this very interesting passage from the book "Khaki Shorts and
Saffron Flags-A Critique of the Hindu Right" by Tapan Basu, Pradip Datta,
Sumit Sarkar, Tanika Sarkar and Sambuddha Sen. [Published by Orient
Longman, 1993]
Page 38-39:
"There are a few Sanskrit mantras with which all sevaks are meant to
begin the day, begin their meals,and which they chant before they sleep.
The day is closed with a singing of the entire hymn of Bande Mataram by
Bankim Chandra, its Bengali parts included. The entirety is given special
emphasis since the hymn supposedly encompasses the authentic shape of
undivided pre-partition Bharatmata: an abbreviation of the hymn,
consequently, implies a symbolic surrender of her symbolic integrity. As
the saffron flag rather than the tricolor is regarded as the true
national flag, this hymn is similarly affirmed to be the true national
hymn. RABINDRANATH'S JANA GANA MANA IS EXPUNGED, BY EXPOUNDING THE FALSE
~~~~~~~
MYTH THAT THE POET HAD COMPOSED IT NOT TO SALUTE THE COUNTRY BUT TO GREET
GEORGE V."
Sumit Sarkar (one of the authors) is a reputed historian. All the authors
are professional academics.
Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
"Sanchayita".
Let me draw your attention to the fourth stanza of the poem. [I have
retrieved and edited it from the Web]
Ghora-timira-ghana nibira nishithey peerita moorchita deshey
Jagrata chila taba abichala mangala natanayaney animeshey.
Dooh-swapney aatankey /Rakkhaa kariley ankey /Snehamayee toomi MAATAA.
~~~~~~~~~~
Jana-gana-dookkha-traayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
to you, who relieve the pain of people.
Please note that in this stanza, Bharat-Bhaagya-Bidhaata is addressed as
"Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
In Sanchayita (the collection of some Tagore poems), the annotation to
the poem mentions the following:[my translation from Bengali]
"This poem was published in 1318 Magh issue of Tatwabodhini Patrika and
it was sung in the Magh Festival that year. It was also sung in the
Congress Session that year."
{Note: 1318 is Bengal era. The present year is 1403 Bengal era.}
Note that there is no reference to it being sung BY RABINDRANATH to
welcome King George.
Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
could not have influenced the decision.
: Anyway, since these questions are not related to Indian classical music, perhaps
: an email to vcha...@eecs.umich.edu would be better. Maybe I can look it up
: in the library but it is easier to ask :-)
: thanks,
: --Chandramouli
The complete song is posted below. The first stanza is our National Anthem.
"jana-gaNa-mana-adhinAyaka jaya he
bhArata-bhAgya-vidhAtA
panjAba-sindhu-gujarATa-marAThA-
drAviDa-utkala-bangA
vindhya-himAcala-yamunA-gangA
ucchala-jaladhi-tarangA
tava s'ubha nAme jAge
tava s'ubha ASisa mAge
gAhe tava jaya-gAthA
jana-gaNa-mangala-dAyaka jaya he
bhArata-bhAgya-vidhAtA
jaya he, jaya he, jaya he,
jaya jaya jaya jaya he"
"Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people,
Dispenser of India's destiny.
Thy name rouses the hearts of the Punjab, Sind, Gujarat and Maratha,
Of the Dravid and Orissa and Bengal.
It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
mingles in the music of the Jamuna and Ganges
and is chanted by the waves of the Indian Sea.
They pray for thy blessings and sing thy praise.
The saving of all people waits in thy hand,
Thou dispenser of India's destiny,
Victory, victory, victory to thee."
Patana-abhyoodaya-bandhoora-panthaa, yuga-yuga dhaabita yaatri.
Hey Chira-Saarathi, taba ratha-chakrey mookharita patha dina-raatri.
Daaroona Biplaba maajhey Taba sankkha-dhwani baajey,
Sankata-dookka-traataa.
Jana-gana-patha-parichaayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
The road is difficult, with rise and fall; the travellers travel
this road for ages. Oh Eternal Charioteer, the wheels of your
chariot keep this way alive day and night. In the midst of all
chaos, your conch shell sounds aloud, as savior of pains and
perils of the journey. Glory to you, who leads people on the way.
Ghora-timira-ghana nibira nishithey peerita moorchita deshey
Jagrata chila taba abichala mangala natanayaney animeshey.
Dooh-swapney aatankey /Rakkhaa kariley ankey /Snehamayee toomi maataa.
Jana-gana-dookkha-traayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
to you, who relieve the pain of people.
Raatri prabhaatila, oodila rabichchhabi poorba-oodya-giri-bhaaley -
Gahey bihangama, poonya samirana naba-jibana-rasa-dhaaley.
Taba karoonaaroona-raagey Nidrita Bharata jagey
Taba charaney nata maathaa.
Jaya jaya jaya hey, jaya Rajeshwara Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaataa.
Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
The night is over, the sun is rising at the eastern mountains,
the birds are singing; the gentle breeze is bringing in the nectar
of new life. Your kind rays awaken the sleeping India; they all
bow their heads to your feet. Glory to you, again and again, Oh
King of the kings!
Finally, somebody had posted a Tamil spoof of Jana Gana Mana. Would some
kind soul translate that spoof, so that we can enjoy it too.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: V. Chandramouli (vcha...@dip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: : Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
: : was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
: : chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
: About this song being composed to honour King George
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: This is lie spread by RSS and other vested interests.
Nalinaksha: I knew that this would be coming.
Afterall, all the bad that is India, is because of
RSS.
Why do you not simply accept the plain fact. That
the great poet could have erred. Or was he an infallible
person.
The notion that RNT wrote Jana Gana as a prashasti
gaana for the king, is as old as the song itself.
For instance the newspapers write:
The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
"The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by him
specially to welcome the Emperor." (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
"The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore of a
song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor." (Englishman, Dec.28).
"When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on Wednesday
27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted unanomously."
(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
Some interesting things to be noted:
a) RNT did not contradict these reports, that the song was in honor
of king.
b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
nationalism.
c) Why do you think that the Brits. unanimously encouraged the singing
of RNT's song, while on the other hand, banned Vande Mataram since
in their opinion it promoted sedition.
d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
Indian nationalism for a change.
: I
: found this very interesting passage from the book "Khaki Shorts and
: Saffron Flags-A Critique of the Hindu Right" by Tapan Basu, Pradip Datta,
: Sumit Sarkar, Tanika Sarkar and Sambuddha Sen. [Published by Orient
: Longman, 1993]
: Page 38-39:
: "There are a few Sanskrit mantras with which all sevaks are meant to
: begin the day, begin their meals,and which they chant before they sleep.
: The day is closed with a singing of the entire hymn of Bande Mataram by
: Bankim Chandra, its Bengali parts included. The entirety is given special
: emphasis since the hymn supposedly encompasses the authentic shape of
: undivided pre-partition Bharatmata: an abbreviation of the hymn,
: consequently, implies a symbolic surrender of her symbolic integrity. As
: the saffron flag rather than the tricolor is regarded as the true
: national flag, this hymn is similarly affirmed to be the true national
: hymn. RABINDRANATH'S JANA GANA MANA IS EXPUNGED, BY EXPOUNDING THE FALSE
Well, this "very interesting passage" shows nothing. Do not try to
divert the debate. This "very interesting passage" in no way shows
that RSS have spread a lie that RNT's song was for the king. The
useless historians have said nothing to substantiate their claim.
Of course, they are reputed, since they and you are in harmony.
: MYTH THAT THE POET HAD COMPOSED IT NOT TO SALUTE THE COUNTRY BUT TO GREET
: GEORGE V."
: Sumit Sarkar (one of the authors) is a reputed historian. All the authors
: are professional academics.
: Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
: 5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
: find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
: "Sanchayita".
: Let me draw your attention to the fourth stanza of the poem. [I have
: retrieved and edited it from the Web]
: Ghora-timira-ghana nibira nishithey peerita moorchita deshey
: Jagrata chila taba abichala mangala natanayaney animeshey.
: Dooh-swapney aatankey /Rakkhaa kariley ankey /Snehamayee toomi MAATAA.
: ~~~~~~~~~~
: Jana-gana-dookkha-traayaka jaya hey, Bharata-Bhaagya-Bidhaata!
: Jaya hey, jaya hey jaya hey, jaya jaya jaya, jaya hey.
: It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
: even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
: the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
: fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: to you, who relieve the pain of people.
: Please note that in this stanza, Bharat-Bhaagya-Bidhaata is addressed as
: "Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
: the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
That is the only good point in your argument. But still it does
not go beyond a certain point. The poet was trying
to say that the king was LIKE a loving mother. In fact
you too have used the word "like".
Still further, India is a loving mother. She is called Bharat.
The poet repeatedly alludes to the vidahaat of Bharat's bhagya.
Naturally, he would not me mentioning India as the bhagya
vidhaataa of Bharat mataa. RNT was much better that.
: In Sanchayita (the collection of some Tagore poems), the annotation to
: the poem mentions the following:[my translation from Bengali]
: "This poem was published in 1318 Magh issue of Tatwabodhini Patrika and
: it was sung in the Magh Festival that year. It was also sung in the
: Congress Session that year."
: {Note: 1318 is Bengal era. The present year is 1403 Bengal era.}
Note: That the Congress of these years was not a champion of Indian
freedom. Most of the folks were simply chamchaas of Brits. And
history does tell us that the primary job of Congress was to ensure
a smooth sailing for the Brits.
: Note that there is no reference to it being sung BY RABINDRANATH to
: welcome King George.
This does not prove anything. Poets have the habit of saying
simple things in complicated ways, and complicated things in
simple ways.
: Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
: of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
: could not have influenced the decision.
This is no proof that the song was not for the Brits. And Indians have had
a pretty good record of making the wrong decisions, that too knowingly.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Gopala Ganesh
Hi!
I took the liberty of SLIGHTLY modifying line # 2 and # 11 to remove the
negative portrayal of India. Also, changed the psikkuthu in line # 3 to
"pasikku", to make it flow (in my opinion, of course), a little smoother!
Other than that, it can be sung, just like JGM! - ganesh
spoof sung to the tune of Jana-Gana-Mana!
>>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>
>> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
>>
>> panjaap pasikku pOdunga parOttaa
>>
>> thaaLicha thakkaaLi kurumaa
>>
>> venthaya kuzhambum vengaaya vadayum
>>
>> oothappam irunthaal koduyyaa
>>
>> thayir vadai masaal vaday thOsai
>>
>> hostel boori mEl aasai
>>
>> ayyayyO idliyaa vENdaam
>>
>> janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>
>> idhuvalla indru nam indhiya
>>
>> COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
>>
>> suda suda suda COffee!!!"
>>
>>
>> NESCOFFEE!!
>> (in lieu of Jai Hind!)
Arasu Chellaiah
> 3/27/97
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> I have a tamil poem by Kirubananda Variyar in the same tune of
> "Jana Gana Mana Adhinaayaka ...", our national anthem.
> Variyar (of course. who else will he sing?) praises Murugan
> of aaRu paDai veeDu in that song.
>
> In the high school days, I have heard a spoof on our national anthem.
> a gentle mockery. It has words like " ... iDli, vaDai, saambaar ..."
> in the tune of "Jana gana mana ...". A gentle mocking imitation.
> If anyone remembers, please mail it to me.
>
> Thanks,
> N. Ganesan
> nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
>
>
I am posting whatever I remember on this. The person who sang this to me
mentioned this originated from Annamalai University.
" JanangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattiNi
PaarungaL ithuthaan Indhia
Panjaab pasikkuthu pOdunga prOttA
thaaLicha thakkALi kurumA
Venthiya kuzhambum vengAya vadayum
OOthappam irunthAl koduyyA
thayir vadai masAl vaday dhOsai
hostel boori mEl Asai
ayyayyO idliyA vENdAm
JanangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattiNi
PArungaL ithuthAn Indhia
COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
Suda suda suda COffee!!!"
" NESCOFFEE "
(Jey hind)
Arnab Gupta
Nachiketa Tiwari wrote...
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
>..[deleted]..
>The notion that RNT wrote Jana Gana as a prashasti
>gaana for the king, is as old as the song itself.
>For instance the newspapers write:
>
>The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
>"The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by him
>specially to welcome the Emperor." (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
>
>"The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore of a
>song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor." (Englishman, Dec.28).
>
>"When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on Wednesday
>27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
>resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted unanomously."
>(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
>
>Some interesting things to be noted:
>
>a) RNT did not contradict these reports, that the song was in honor
> of king.
>
He actually did. About eight to ten years ago there appeared an
article in the `sharodiyo' number of the Bengali magazine `Desh'
on the same issue. It quoted letters from Tagore in which he
contradicted these accusations. I have asked someone back in
Calcutta to dig up that article and send me a photocopy. Rest
assure, I will type it down for you once I get it.
>b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
> a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
> not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
> of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
> nationalism.
>
`Jana Gana Mana', unlike many other patriotic songs, can be interpreted
in various ways. Frankly speaking, I don't see anything in it that
could be objectionable to the English ruling class, or `potentially
contribute to Indian nationalism'. The song was pretty much unknown
and unpopular before it was taken as the national anthem.
>c) Why do you think that the Brits. unanimously encouraged the singing
> of RNT's song, while on the other hand, banned Vande Mataram since
> in their opinion it promoted sedition.
>
What do you exactly mean by `encourage'? What proofs have you got that
they wanted (if that is what you have meant) this song to be popularized ?
>d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
> that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
> they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
> Indian nationalism for a change.
Can you please quote the exact nature of this `praise', and the report
on this ceremony you have mentioned ?
..[deleted]..
>: Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
>: of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
>: could not have influenced the decision.
>
>This is no proof that the song was not for the Brits. And Indians have had
>a pretty good record of making the wrong decisions, that too knowingly.
So what's your `proof' that the song was `for the Brits' ?
Please remember...
1. You have quoted a pro-British newspaper to prove your point and
NOTHING else. Then again, it is a `report' only, and hence based
on what the reporter percieved the song as. It DOES NOT quote
anyone (including the organizers or the poet or even the British)
to give even an hint that the song was actually sung in praise of
the emperor. In his correspondences, that I mentioned earlier,
Rabindranath himself did not support the interpretation that it
was sung for the purpose that you have mentioned.
2. Interpretations are not good at proving a point in a point in a debate
on an objective issue like this. If you interpret `Bharata Bhagya Vidhata'
as the emperor please remember that many others would like to see
the same `Vidhata' as God.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
brao
In article <5hgs56$mip$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya <bha...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
...
> It was the darkest of the dark nights; the entire country was sick,
> even unconsciuos. Your kind eyes didn't rest; they kept a round-
> the-clock vigil (on the ailing country). In the nightmares and
> fears, you protected us in your lap, like a loving mother. Glory
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> to you, who relieve the pain of people.
>
>Please note that in this stanza, Bharat-Bhaagya-Bidhaata is addressed as
>"Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
>the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
By itself, the above is not conclusive evidence that
Bharata-Bhagya-vidhaata is not identified with King George.
In Indian literary tradition, it is not uncommon for a nominally male
figure to be given "maternal" attributes, especially if the "male"
figure is God or someone God-like, such as a king-emperor. There are
several Sanskrit verses with male God-figures (e.g., Rama, Krishna, or
Narasimha) in which they are explicitly equated with a mother.
e.g., "twamEva maata pitaa twamEva
twamEva vidyaa draviNam twamEva ..."
(referring to Lord Krishna)
"maataa narasimhascha pitaa narasimha..." by Adi Sankara
(referring to Lord Narasimha).
Also, note that the emotion of "vaatsalyam", i.e., the feeling of a
cow towards its calf is very commonly attributed in language to male
(or traditionally male) adults like fathers and gurus towards their
young wards.
Tagore being alive or not at the time of selection of Janaganamana is
not relevant, as the reverence and goodwill towards him would have
transcended any need for him to exert personal influence in the
decision.
On reading the whole poem, it sounds like it is basically directed
towards an abstract "vidhaata" of the country's destiny, but the term
"Rajeswara" in the final stanza is a strong hint that it does refer to
a King. But this is not conclusive either, since "Rajeswara" is (I
believe) another name for Lord Siva, i.e., synonymous with the divine.
But basically the controversy has no more than academic significance.
My personal views.
Bapa Rao
N. Tiwari
Arnab Gupta (GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: Nachiketa Tiwari wrote...
: >Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: >..[deleted]..
: >The notion that RNT wrote Jana Gana as a prashasti
: >gaana for the king, is as old as the song itself.
: >For instance the newspapers write:
: >
: >The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
: >"The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by him
: >specially to welcome the Emperor." (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
: >
: >"The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore of a
: >song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor." (Englishman, Dec.28).
: >
: >"When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on Wednesday
: >27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
: >resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted unanomously."
: >(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
: >
: >Some interesting things to be noted:
: >
: >a) RNT did not contradict these reports, that the song was in honor
: > of king.
: >
: He actually did. About eight to ten years ago there appeared an
: article in the `sharodiyo' number of the Bengali magazine `Desh'
: on the same issue. It quoted letters from Tagore in which he
: contradicted these accusations. I have asked someone back in
: Calcutta to dig up that article and send me a photocopy. Rest
: assure, I will type it down for you once I get it.
That will be a good idea.
: >b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
: > a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
: > not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
: > of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
: > nationalism.
: >
: `Jana Gana Mana', unlike many other patriotic songs, can be interpreted
: in various ways. Frankly speaking, I don't see anything in it that
: could be objectionable to the English ruling class, or `potentially
: contribute to Indian nationalism'. The song was pretty much unknown
: and unpopular before it was taken as the national anthem.
It is one think to interpret. It is another thing
to sing a song in front of an emperor. Surely, I
would not sing a song, in the colonial times, in
front of George 5, during the time of his coronation
that will be a bhajan. And surely, if I sang a bhajan
then the newspapers would not report that I sang a
ballad.
: >c) Why do you think that the Brits. unanimously encouraged the singing
: > of RNT's song, while on the other hand, banned Vande Mataram since
: > in their opinion it promoted sedition.
: >
: What do you exactly mean by `encourage'? What proofs have you got that
: they wanted (if that is what you have meant) this song to be popularized ?
: >d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
: > that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
: > they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
: > Indian nationalism for a change.
: Can you please quote the exact nature of this `praise', and the report
: on this ceremony you have mentioned ?
Yes. It is from a book: The Story of a Song. I do not remember
the author.
: ..[deleted]..
: >: Also note that the song Jana Gana Mana, was adopted as the National Anthem
: >: of India on January 24, 1950. Rabindranath was long dead by that time and
: >: could not have influenced the decision.
: >
: >This is no proof that the song was not for the Brits. And Indians have had
: >a pretty good record of making the wrong decisions, that too knowingly.
: So what's your `proof' that the song was `for the Brits' ?
Well, Arnab: I have cited my proof. Actual newspaper reports.
Nalinaksha'r proof is no proof at all. His argument is: "Look
India adopted it, after the death of RNT". That is not a proof.
: Please remember...
: 1. You have quoted a pro-British newspaper to prove your point and
: NOTHING else. Then again, it is a `report' only, and hence based
: on what the reporter percieved the song as. It DOES NOT quote
: anyone (including the organizers or the poet or even the British)
: to give even an hint that the song was actually sung in praise of
: the emperor. In his correspondences, that I mentioned earlier,
: Rabindranath himself did not support the interpretation that it
: was sung for the purpose that you have mentioned.
I quoted 3 newspapers. All the newspapers say the same thing.
It could be very well possible that the poet, after redefining
himself (as a nationalist) tried to reinterpretation his kriti.
That will not be surprising, since humans evolve as they grow.
But that does not mean that we deny the earlier phases of our
lives, if they turn out to be inconsitent with our present
phase.
: 2. Interpretations are not good at proving a point in a point in a debate
: on an objective issue like this. If you interpret `Bharata Bhagya Vidhata'
: as the emperor please remember that many others would like to see
: the same `Vidhata' as God.
Vidhaataa could be used as God. But in courts, "malik", "huzoor", "vidhaataa",
"swami" has countlessly been used to praise the raja/rani too. If you interpret
a song, interpret it in the context in it was sung. Any interpretation,
that neglects the context, with a view to feel good, will in my opinion
be a dishonest exercise.
RNT, like a lot of Indians of those times, was only responding
to what was percieved as OK. It was only in the later times,
that he rediscovered his Indian self. It is his rediscovery
that inspires me.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Rajaraman Jayakrishnan
Gopala Ganesh wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I took the liberty of SLIGHTLY modifying line # 2 and # 11 to remove the
> negative portrayal of India. Also, changed the psikkuthu in line # 3 to
> "pasikku", to make it flow (in my opinion, of course), a little smoother!
> Other than that, it can be sung, just like JGM! - ganesh
>
> spoof sung to the tune of Jana-Gana-Mana!
>
> >>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
> >>
> >> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
.....
Looks great now! Thanks.
Jayakrishnan
Kathiravan
In article <5hgs56$mip$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) writes:
|> V. Chandramouli (vcha...@dip.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
|> : Can someone post details on when this song was composed? Is it true that this song
|> : was composed to honor King George's visit to India? Why "Vande mataram" was not
|> : chosen as the anthem instead, if that is true?
|>
|> About this song being composed to honour King George
|> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|> This is lie spread by RSS and other vested interests.
|>
So that the saffron goons can have a field day with
Vante mataram. VHP released this as one of their agenda
to develop India.
[All the laborious effort deleted]
India is a garland of different flowers sadly
handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
falls short of them when one finds the draconian
laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
been used against Indians with opposing political
views.
V.C.Vijayaraghavan
On Mar 28, 1997 16:37:58 in article <Re: Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof
request.>, 'bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya)' wrote:
>Finally, somebody had posted a Tamil spoof of Jana Gana Mana. Would some
>kind soul translate that spoof, so that we can enjoy it too.
>
>--
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
by not-so-kind soul)
>>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>
>> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
>>
>>
>> thaaLicha thakkaaLi kurumaa
>>
>> venthaya kuzhambum vengaaya vadayum
>>
>> oothappam irunthaal koduyyaa
>>
>> thayir vadai masaal vaday thOsai
>>
>> hostel boori mEl aasai
>>
>> ayyayyO idliyaa vENdaam
>>
>>
>>
>> COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
>>
>> suda suda suda COffee!!!"
>>
>>
>> NESCOFFEE!!
>> (in lieu of Jai Hind!)
Is this not our India of today
To remove hunger make parota
With fried tomato korma
Fenugreek sambhar and onion vadai
Give me oothappam if you have
Curd vadai, masal vadai, dosai
And puri are wanted now
But no iddli please
Peoples stomachs are full of hunger
Is this not our India of today
Coffee coffee coffee
Hot hot hot hot coffee
Gopala Ganesh
vi...@vossnet.co.uk(V.C.Vijayaraghavan) wrote:
>
>Here is the tamil spoof ( version of Gopala Ganesh) and it's translation (
>by not-so-kind soul)
>
just a small correction noted below! - ganesh
>
>>>" janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>>
>>> idhuvalla indru nam indhia
>>>
>>> panjaap pasikku pOdunga parOttaa
>>>
>>> thaaLicha thakkaaLi kurumaa
>>>
>>> venthaya kuzhambum vengaaya vadayum
>>>
>>> oothappam irunthaal koduyyaa
>>>
>>> thayir vadai masaal vaday thOsai
>>>
>>> hostel boori mEl aasai
>>>
>>> ayyayyO idliyaa vENdaam
>>>
>>> janangaLin manangaLil pasi panjam pattini
>>>
>>> idhuvalla indru nam indhiya
>>>
>>> COffee!! COffee!! COffee!!
>>>
>>> suda suda suda COffee!!!"
>>>
>>>
>>> NESCOFFEE!!
>>> (in lieu of Jai Hind!)
>
>
>
>Peoples stomachs are full of hunger
>
>Is this not our India of today
^^^^^^^^^^^
I meant "this is not", NOT "Is this not"! i.e. my modification of the
original posted by Arasu was intended to render it positive, not negative!
>
>To remove hunger make parota
>
>With fried tomato korma
>
>Fenugreek sambhar and onion vadai
>
>Give me oothappam if you have
>
>Curd vadai, masal vadai, dosai
>
>And puri are wanted now
>
>But no iddli please
>
>Peoples stomachs are full of hunger
>
>Is this not our India of today
^^^^^^^^^^^^
same as above!
M.Ranganathan
In article <5hhm8h$m...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
> India is a garland of different flowers sadly
>handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
>What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
>Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
>ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
Good heavens Mr. Kathirist! You are quite a bombastic gas bag.
>falls short of them when one finds the draconian
>laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
>been used against Indians with opposing political
>views.
How so Mr. Kathirist? Please elaborate. How many millions
did Nehru kill?
I say Mr. Kathirist, have you ever considered returning to
your homeland and cleaning up the mess. Running for office
perhaps? Oh Canada is far too nice eh? A socialist country
besides. It is a matter of principle of course.....
"What about you ?" you ask -- well, well, I have never pretended
to care have I?
Ranga.
Arnab Gupta
Nachiketa Tiwari wrote...
..[deleted]..
>: >b) Why should a song in praise of God, or India, be sung in front of
>: > a King, who was a ruler of India in those days. The Brits were
>: > not idiots, that they would ensure the singing of a song in front
>: > of their master, that might potentially contribute to Indian
>: > nationalism.
>: >
>
>: `Jana Gana Mana', unlike many other patriotic songs, can be interpreted
>: in various ways. Frankly speaking, I don't see anything in it that
>: could be objectionable to the English ruling class, or `potentially
>: contribute to Indian nationalism'. The song was pretty much unknown
>: and unpopular before it was taken as the national anthem.
>
>It is one think to interpret. It is another thing
>to sing a song in front of an emperor. Surely, I
>would not sing a song, in the colonial times, in
>front of George 5, during the time of his coronation
>that will be a bhajan. And surely, if I sang a bhajan
>then the newspapers would not report that I sang a
>ballad.
>
You have to remember two things here...
1. The occasion was the meeting of the Indian National Congress. So
to sing something related to India is not quite out of context
here. The song, I repeat once again, has been interpreted by the
poet himself and many others to be one in praise of the God and
not the emperor.
2. There is nothing in the song that can be objectionable to the British.
As you have noted (in your source) the song can be interpreted as
one referring to the Emperor. So it is not surprising that the British
found nothing wrong with it. But this by itself does not prove that
the song refers to the Emperor as `Bharata Bhagya Vidhata'.
..[deleted]..
>: >d) When the Brits left India, they gave a fighter plane to India. On
>: > that occasion, Jana Gana was sung. They praised the song too. Were
>: > they worshipping mother India at that time. Or were they experiencing
>: > Indian nationalism for a change.
>
>: Can you please quote the exact nature of this `praise', and the report
>: on this ceremony you have mentioned ?
>
>Yes. It is from a book: The Story of a Song. I do not remember
>the author.
>
Once again, the incedent you have mentioned does not necessarily *prove* that
the song is in praise of the emperor. It's the interpretation of the British.
In any case, I will appreciate if you kindly quote the book (if you have it
with you presently).
..[deleted]..
There can be no question of rediscovery in this case. He was actually
pretty much sure about what he was doing. What follows is a quote
from `The Myriad-Minded Man' (Rabindranath's biography by Andrew
Robinson and Krishna Dutta) on this incedent:
"...The tangle around Tagore in Bengal was perfectly illustrated by an
incedent in December. `Jana Gana Mana' is today India's national
anthem, selected in the 1950s and composed by Tagore in late 1911.
Officially it was written for the meeting of the Indian National
Congress in Calcutta in December 1911, where it was sung for the
first time. Most probably it was really composed for the occasion
of George V's coronation at the Durbar held in Delhi in the same
month - but not sung at the Durbar because it was insufficiently
`loyal'. There the head of the Pathuriaghat Tagores held an umbrella
over King George; perhaps he and the Bengalis on the national
reception committee had hoped that Rabindranath could manage a song
in the same spirit as the umbrella. If so they were dissapointed.
The following year in London one of Tagore's Bengali friends explained
how the song came about to W. B. Yeats, who told Ezra Pound, who
then passed the story on to his father in the USA, calling it a
joke `worthy of Voltaire':
The national committee came to Mr. Tagore and asked him to
write something for the [Delhi Durbar]. And as you know Mr.
Tagore is very obliging. And all that afternoon he tried to
write a poem, and he could not. And that evening the poet
as usual retired to his meditation. And in the morning he
descended with a sheet of paper. He said `Here is the poem
I have written. It is addressed to the deity. But you may
give it to the national committee. Perhaps it will content
them.'
....."
Note the following points...
1. The song was written in 1911. Five years before this Rabindranath
participated actively in the Banga-Bhanga andolon (the protest
against the division of Bengal). The period is generally referred
to as the Nationalistic period of Tagore. Most of his songs in the
praise of the country were written during this period. So, there
the accusation that he was `loyal' to the Empire at that time or
`the poet, after redefining himself (as a nationalist) tried to
reinterpretation his kriti' *does not* stand.
2. The poet himself interpreted the song (when he wrote it) as one
`addressed to the diety' not the Emperor.
3. The British *did not* find the song very praiseworthy.
So, accusing Rabindranath in this issue on the basis of newspaper reports
or British interpretations of the song is rather unfortunate, IMO.
Specially so, when he himself made it clear that the song was written
in the praise of God right after he composed it.
Thanks,
Arnab.
Kathiravan
In article <5hk4r0$4...@catfish.cs.umd.edu>, ra...@cs.umd.edu (M.Ranganathan) writes:
|> In article <5hhm8h$m...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
|> > India is a garland of different flowers sadly
|> >handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
|> >What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
|> >Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
|> >ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
|>
|>
|> Good heavens Mr. Kathirist! You are quite a bombastic gas bag.
|>
Never more than you. Considering your open public
boasting the Higher
you Go;the Iyengar you become:-)
|> >falls short of them when one finds the draconian
|> >laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
|> >been used against Indians with opposing political
|> >views.
|>
|>
|> How so Mr. Kathirist? Please elaborate. How many millions
|> did Nehru kill?
Pretend to sleep. .
Count the numbers lost during partition. Read up
history. Nehru and his aamaanj saamees would never
agree on federalism and power sharing. Muslims stood
behind Jinnah. And whom do you think has to bear the
blame for the mayhem. Even if you split 0.5 each the
number will be more than million. Makes Hitler a
pigmie. Add more.... from below
Emergency killings, killing 3000+ Sikhs in Delhi and 10,000
odd in Punjab during false encounters, killings in
nagaland, mizoram, assam, wars with neighbours,
killing 8000 innocents in Elam all are the legacy
of `Mama of India'
|> I say Mr. Kathirist, have you ever considered returning to
|> your homeland and cleaning up the mess. Running for office
|> perhaps? Oh Canada is far too nice eh? A socialist country
|> besides. It is a matter of principle of course.....
|>
|> "What about you ?" you ask -- well, well, I have never pretended
|> to care have I?
|>
You ask and answer your own questions.
|> Ranga.
|>
|>
V. Chandramouli
Well, I seemed to have inadvertently stirred up a hornet's nest. I was shocked
to see so many posts on this topic. This thread has nothing to do with ICM and should be stopped at once. It is fast degenrating into a RSS versus non-RSS and patriotic and non-patriotic people, wars. I had clearly said in my post with that innocuous question (or so I thought) that since the answer had nothing to do with ICM, to respond by email. But I guess this was a chance for people to show to the rest of the world, as if they cared, their opinios/hatred.
I will go to the library and form my own opinions on this matter. To all the
other nettors, my sincere apologies for engendering this deluge.
--Chandramouli
ps: This thread might be of interest to the people involved. However, it should
be discussed in a more appropriate newsgroup, IMO.
P.Siddharth
Kathiravan wrote:
>
> India is a garland of different flowers sadly
> handed over to monkeys [Nehru and Co] by MK Gandhi.
> What can they do. They screwed it up. For 49 years.
> Congress and Nehru have the largest share of damage
> ever done to human race in the world. Even Hitler
> laws enshrined in the Constitution and how it has
> been used against Indians with opposing political
> views.
As per the Dravidian oracle, power should have been handed over to the
D.K.( Dravida Kazgam). Even though Corruption is a commonplace in India,
D.K. would have included the right of politicians to pillage and loot, a
fundamental right under the constitution and this would have avoided all
the problems.Tamil should have been made the national language and with
ethnic cleansing should have started 49 years ago.Universities and
schools should have been abolished and degrees should have been handed
down to based on caste, as is done now in T.N.Only idiots should have
been allowed to run for election. These opportunities were missed and
because of this Kathiravan is not the Prime Minister and has to work for
a living.What a tragedy.
Anonymous IU Student
I dont know what the Tamil 'spoof' of the national
anthem means, but speaking for myself, I wouldn't
like the national anthem to be 'spoofed'. Perhaps some
things could be left untouched by irreverence - the
flag, the anthem among other things.
Just an old-fashioned thought.
Samir Dhume
<sdh...@indiana.edu>
Nice haiku, though.
Ganesan wrote:
>
> 3/27/97
>
> Hi Friends,
>
> I have a tamil poem by Kirubananda Variyar in the same tune of
> "Jana Gana Mana Adhinaayaka ...", our national anthem.
> Variyar (of course. who else will he sing?) praises Murugan
> of aaRu paDai veeDu in that song.
>
> In the high school days, I have heard a spoof on our national anthem.
> a gentle mockery. It has words like " ... iDli, vaDai, saambaar ..."
> in the tune of "Jana gana mana ...". A gentle mocking imitation.
> If anyone remembers, please mail it to me.
>
> Thanks,
> N. Ganesan
> nas...@lms420.jsc.nasa.gov
>
V.C.Vijayaraghavan
On Mar 30, 1997 14:21:57 in article <Re: Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof
request.>, 'Anonymous IU Student <stu...@indiana.edu>' wrote:
>
>I dont know what the Tamil 'spoof' of the national
>anthem means,
the meaning. It looks like it has been composed by college students in a
hostel waiting for their food to be served. To me it looks like a 'spoof'
rather than spoof, more a spoof on a spoof.
but speaking for myself, I wouldn't
>like the national anthem to be 'spoofed'. Perhaps some
>things could be left untouched by irreverence -
Samir Dhume
V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote:
>
> On Mar 30, 1997 14:21:57 in article <Re: Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof
>
>
> Nothing is to be left untouched by irreverance
>
Perhaps tomorrow you might want to use the tricolor
as toilet paper ?
Spit on your father's photograph ? It's only paper,
after all. If you have qualms, allow me to.
Samir.
M.Ranganathan
In article <5hkjvd$e...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
>
>|>
>|> Good heavens Mr. Kathirist! You are quite a bombastic gas bag.
>|>
> Never more than you. Considering your open public
>boasting the Higher
>you Go;the Iyengar you become:-)
No No. Dont misquote me. Thats "The Iyer you go the Iyengar you become".
>|> How so Mr. Kathirist? Please elaborate. How many millions
>|> did Nehru kill?
>
> Pretend to sleep. .
>
> Count the numbers lost during partition. Read up
People are responsible for their own savagery. Nobody could
prevent them from killing each other. Not Gandhi nor Nehru.
Whatever gave you the idea that Nehru was responsible?
>history. Nehru and his aamaanj saamees would never
>agree on federalism and power sharing. Muslims stood
>behind Jinnah. And whom do you think has to bear the
>blame for the mayhem. Even if you split 0.5 each the
>number will be more than million. Makes Hitler a
>pigmie. Add more.... from below
Thats funny. So the people involved had nothing to do with it eh. It
was all the fault of Nehru? Look here, Nehru never issued an order to
kill. He was stupid in his centralized industrial policy and Fabian
socialism but he never was a killer.
>
>
> Emergency killings, killing 3000+ Sikhs in Delhi and 10,000
>odd in Punjab during false encounters, killings in
>nagaland, mizoram, assam, wars with neighbours,
>killing 8000 innocents in Elam all are the legacy
>of `Mama of India'
Err... we were discussing the "Chacha of India". Mama Gandhi does not
enter into the discussion. Incidentally, the combination of the two
comes nowhere close to Hitler. Hitler, old chap, issued direct orders
which resulted in the death of atleast 6,000,000 people. You may have a
tough time matching that in all of human history. Stalin perhpaps comes
close. You know Stalin - the fellow after whom the glorious Mayor of
Chennai is named.
You have a knack for being bombastic. You would win in Tamizh Nadoo hands
down. They gobble this kind of thing up. Do consider running.
Ranga.
N. Tiwari
Arnab Gupta (GUP...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: The national committee came to Mr. Tagore and asked him to
: Note the following points...
Arnab_ji:
1. Your own citation (from RNT's biography) says that perhaps the
song WAS written for the Brits in the first place.
2. Tagore, according to your own quote, says approx to the effect
"take it away, i wrote it for the deity, but they could use
for other purposes". Note that he said this the morning after
he had composed the song. After the national committe asked
him to write something for Delhi Durbar. Perhaps, that tells
us that RNT was confused and his kriti was in part devoted
to praise of George 5. This duplicity of mind, and thought
is very human. Especially, when one is not sure as to what
is one doing, or stand for. Perhaps, his acceptance to wriet
something in the first place (as per Congress's instruction)
and his categorizing the song as a tribute to deity the
morning after, does indeed exposes his confusion and his
lack of steadfastedness in that period.
3. Perhaps, the Brits did not find it praiseworthy enough
to be sung in the court. But, as I had mentioned earlies,
they did use the song on lots of other occasions, to eulogize
the king. I am sorry but I cannot substantiate this directly
by quoting a book, since I do not have the book.
4. I personally would not care about the song, had it been
not our national anthem. Its stature as national anthem
is what makes me unconfortable. For two reasons:
a) I have not yet been able to convince myself that the
song was written for God and not the king, as claimed
by you and others.
b) Even if I accept your arguments, and proposition, it
still does not make it a national anthem. Because either
it is a song devoted to king, (and praises the king)
or it is a song devoted to God (and praises God). In
either case, it is not devoted to Mother India. So,
I do not think that it is qualified enough to be a
national anthem. Because if that could be so, then
any good bhajan could qualify for our national anthem.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
V.C.Vijayaraghavan
On Mar 30, 1997 18:23:01 in article <Re: Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof
request.>, 'Samir Dhume <sdh...@indiana.edu>' wrote:
>
>Perhaps tomorrow you might want to use the tricolor
>as toilet paper ?
>
>Spit on your father's photograph ? It's only paper,
>after all. If you have qualms, allow me to.
>
>Samir.
form of reverance. . These acts smack of a peculiar religious rites and
rituals ,of however distorted variety. Irreverance is irreverant to all
religion, counter-religion, distorted religion and anti-religion
Novice
Anonymous IU Student (stu...@indiana.edu) wrote:
: I dont know what the Tamil 'spoof' of the national
: like the national anthem to be 'spoofed'. Perhaps some
: flag, the anthem among other things.
: Just an old-fashioned thought.
: Samir Dhume
I don't know what the hell the national anthem means.
I wonder whether more than 2% of tamilnadu students know the
meaning of national anthem.
May be if they could have appreciated the meaning of that
Jana Gana stuff (if there is any) they may not have created
the spoof.
By the way, what language is that "Jana Gana" stuff. ?!
I am guessing it to be bengali.
I wouldn't be surprised if it is Hindi or Marathi.
sur...@usa.net
In article <333E5F...@mail.idt.net>,
> As per the Dravidian oracle, power should have been handed over to the
> D.K.( Dravida Kazgam). Even though Corruption is a commonplace in India,
> D.K. would have included the right of politicians to pillage and loot,
It is the brahminical setup of yours which loots the common man
to the hilt. Look at this undereducated guy Krishnamurthy of SAIL.
He became the chairman just because he was a brahmin and looted
200 crores. Now he is part of the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation. Probably
donated 25 lakhs for the "upliftment" of society. What a bunch of
spineless assholes. And this pimp Siddarth has the guts to talk
as though brahminism is the light of the world.
a
> fundamental right under the constitution and this would have avoided all
> the problems.Tamil should have been made the national language and with
Tamil will be the national language if the majority of people in a
a country are Tamils. Tamils do not aspire to prop up a dead language
like some misguided morons do.
> ethnic cleansing should have started 49 years ago.Universities and
> schools should have been abolished and degrees should have been handed
> down to based on caste, as is done now in T.N.Only idiots should have
> been allowed to run for election. These opportunities were missed and
> because of this Kathiravan is not the Prime Minister and has to work for
> a living.What a tragedy.
A honorable profession to earn a living is much better than hiding behind
a religious body and pimping for a bitch just because she is a brahmin.
Ganga.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Valliappa Lakshmanan
>"Maataa"(Mother). If it was King George that the poet had in mind then
>the proper word would have been "Pita" (Father).
> bow their heads to your feet. Glory to you, again and again, Oh
> King of the kings!
>
Your thesis seems to be contradicted by the last stanza. If it is Bharat
Mata being addressed, why talk about the "King of Kings". "Queen of them
all" might fit better :)
What year did King George come to India?
>
>Finally, somebody had posted a Tamil spoof of Jana Gana Mana. Would some
>kind soul translate that spoof, so that we can enjoy it too.
>
>--
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
On the lines of: people going hungry, this is India, followed by foods
they'd like to see (idli, vadai, sambar etc., go back and read it!)
lakshman
Sankara Narayanan
My dear Nalinaksha,
A lie repeated frequently becomes a truth eventually .. but alas, even
the
sheer TRUTH, just because it comes from the Saffron brigade becomes a
lie ..huh ?
It is pathetic that at present only the saffron camp is lobbying for the
truly nationalistic ideas, including Vande Mataram... BTW, as per the
Indian constitution , Vande Mataram should be treated with EQUAL
respect as that of jana-gana-mana (read the article below).
Here is the account of true events .... compiled from 2 main sources :
1. Excerpts from ``Story of a Song: Ecstacy and Agony'' by Shivaramu
...
2. Vande Mataram by Moni Bagchee, published by Bhavan's Book trust.
It's a little long, I know. But I decided to post it this way, because
I did not want to present any partial truths...
------------------------------------------------------
GENESIS OF JANAGANAMANA:
W.B. Yeats is a great Irish poet. He was a friend of Tagore's,
and a great admirer of his works. He wrote a beautiful introduction
to Tagore's Gitanjali. Once an Indian disciple of Tagore met Yeats.
In a letter to Lady Gregory in America, Yeats mentioned that he had
told him that Sarojini Naidu's brother was unhappy that Tagore wrote
a poem welcoming King George V. He also narrated to her an appetising
story he had from the disciple warning her that it was strictly off the
record. It concerns the circumstances in which Janaganamana
was composed: ``The National Congress people asked Tagore for a poem
of welcome. He tried to write it, but could not. He got up very early
in the morning and wrote a very beautiful poem, not one of his best,
but still beautiful. When he came down, he said to one of us, `Here is
a poem which I have written. It is addressed to God, but give it to
Congress
people. It will please them. They will think it is addressed to the
King.
' All Tagore's own followers knew it meant God, but others did not.''
(The Indian Express, June 3, 1968)
The Calcutta Congress session began on December 26, 1911. The
proceedings on the first day began with Vandemataram. The second day was
entirely devoted to things connected with the welcoming of King George
V,
and this day the song Janaganamana was sung, and at the closing ceremony
Rajbhuja Dutt Choudhary's 'Badshah Hamara' was sung. On the third day
Saraladevi sang her own composition 'Namo Hindustan'.
The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
``The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by
him
specially to welcome the Emperor.'' (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
``The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore
of a
song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor.'' (Englishman,
Dec.28).
``When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on
Wednesday
27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted
unanomously.''
(Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
In the eyes of many leaders of the day, loyalty to the nation and
loyalty
to the Emperor were identical. King George V had proclaimed on Dec.12
the
annulment of the partition of Bengal. There was therefore nothing
unnatural
or extraordinary in a Bengali poet, Rabindranath Tagore, composing or
singing
a song in praise of the Emperor out of gratitude. But differences of
opinion
were bound to arise when the question of its adoption as the national
anthem
came up. The choice of a national anthem should undoubtedly be one which
can
be a fountain of inspiration by the sanctity of its origin.
Rabindranath Tagore did not contradict newspaper reports which
characterised
Janaganamana as a song composed in honour of King George V. Gradually
the tide
of nationalism began to affect the old values. Loyalty to the country
and
loyalty to the King became irreconcilable. Honour, devotion and love of
the
country not only ceased to co-exist with honour, devotion and love of
King
Emperor, but mutually antagonistic.
Also the British government which was charging people with sedition
for
singing Vande Mataram extended high regard to Janaganamana. It was sung
in
Government schools, and in scout groups which fostered loyalty to the
British
throne. At the time British quit India, a fighter plane was presented by
England to India, and on this occasion Janaganamana was sung. The
British
also praised the song. It is anybody's guess as to why they praised it?
ACCEPTENCE AS NATIONAL ANTHEM:
January 26, 1950 was set for the Indian Republic. The national anthem
was
to be chosen before the election of the President. The objection
advanced
Vandemataram was that unlike Janaganamana it did not suit band music,
but
Master Krishna Rao had solved the difficulty. He had given a
demonstration
before the members of the Constituent Assembly who had to decide the
issue.
Moreover, there was generous appreciation from experts in Bombay, both
official
and professional. It was therefore expected, that unless the technical
objec-
tion was a mere facade, the Constituent Assembly would adopt Vande
Mataram
as the national anthem. The Government's objections having been
disproved,
the nation heaved a sigh of relief.
Mahatma Gandhi wanted Vande Mataram to be our national anthem. The
song
was invariably sung at his prayer meetings. After Vande Matram was sung
on
August 29, 1947, Gandhi ji said, ``Vande Matram should be set to music
so that
millions can sing it together, and feel the thrill. They should all sing
in
the same raga, with the same bhava. Shantiniketan or some other
competent
institution should design an acceptable raga.'' This wish of Gandhi ji
was
fulfilled through Master Krishni Rao's craftmanship.
After this time, the whole of Bengal, under the leadership of its
Premier
Dr B. C. Roy, took up the campaign in favour of Vande Mataram.
In view of this background, the possibility of the members of the
Constit-
uent Assembly, inspired by sentiments of patriotism, adopting Vande
Mataram
as the national anthem was indeed strong. But things were happening
behind the
scene.
AND THE CONTROVERSY STARTED ....
Pt. Vishnu Digambar Paluskar founded the Gandharva Mahavidhyalaya. A
well-
known musician, he was also a proud patriot. He brought into vogue the
tradi-
tion of singing national songs at public functions. .........
.... Paluskar attended Congress session, year after year,
since 1915, and his performance captured the hearts of delegates.
In 1923 the Congress session was held at Kakinada, which is now in
Andhra
Pradesh. As usual Paluskar was invited to it. He rose to sing Vande
Mataram.
Maulana Mohamed Ali was the President of the Congress that year.
``When Vishnu Digambar rose to sing Vande Mataram in conformity with
tradition, Maulana Saheb raised an objection on the ground that music
was
taboo to his religion. The leaders assembled were completely bewildered.
Vishnu
Digambar was incensed, and hit back: `This is a national forum, not the
plateform of any single community. This is no mosque to object to music.
There
is no justification for a ban on music here. When the President could
put up
with the music in the presidential procession, why does he object to it
here?'
Having silenced the President, without waiting for his reply, he
proceeded to
sing Vande Mataram and completed it. Respect for his sense of national
pride
and love of the motherland grew. The people admired his moral courage,
and
applauded him heartily.'' (Vishnu Digambar Paluskar, National Book
Trust, p.54)
It came as a great shock to the people that Maulana Md. Ali should
object
the singing of Vande Mataram. There was no doubt that this was an
indication
of a mentality of separatism which refused to identify itself with the
main-
stream of national life. But this episode did little damage either to
the
greatness or the popularity of the song. Mahatma Gandhi repeatedly
referred
to the virtues of this national anthem. ``When we sing that ode to the
mother-
land, Bande Mataram, we sing it to the whole of India.'' (Kesari January
1924)
The opposition of Muslim League to Vande Mataram, however, continued
to
wax and they started putting pressure on Congress leadership against the
sing-
ing of this song. It was the height of irony on the part of the Muslim
League,
which was bent upon breaking the unity of India, emotionally,
geographically,
and in all other ways, to express its concern about `the growth of
genuine
natinalism'. Those in Congress who were eager to pander to every
slightest
wish of the League were agitated, and a feeling developed that unless ML
is
dissatisfied and it was won over the unity of the country would be
imperilled.
In such a situation CWC in 1937 decided to maim and curtail the national
song.
The CWC appointed a sub-committee with Maulana Azad, Nehru, Subhash
Chandra
Bose and Acharya Narendra Dev as members to review the eligibility of VM
to
the status of national anthem. The committee was to take the guidance of
Rabindranath Tagore. And this sub-committee endorsed the CWC's
resolution
to adopt VM in its truncated form as the national anthem:
``Anandmath was the story of a heroic struggle against foreign rule.
Because
it happened to be a Muslim rule, a fresh objection was raised. Bankim's
object was to arouse through his novels a patriotic awakening among the
people
so that they became consious of their slavery under the British. He
couldn't
do it overtly, but his fiction achieved the purpose. The revolutinaries
of
Bengal accepted it in this spirit in the early part of the century; it
bacame
the mantra of those who mounted the gallows in a bid to emanicipate the
country
>from alien bondage...The Congress, however, in order to conciliate the Muslims,
mutilated the song and ordered that only first two stanzas of it should
be
sung.'' (Muslim Politics, S. Mukherjee, p.53)
.. AFTER INDEPENDENCE:
In GOI's publication (Our National Songs), it is said that experts
were
of the view that Vande Mataram lacked rhythm and movement. Of course
they were
official experts, and remain unidentified. In their opinion the
essential
qualification of a national anthem is `tal' (beat) and hence recommeded
Janaganamana.
Mahatama Gandhi called Janaganamana a religious hymn, not the
national
anthem, but he characterised numerous times Vandemataram as the national
anthem.
About Janaganamana, Humayun Kabir agrees with the view expressed by
Gandhiji. ``In a sense it is more a religious hymn for all mankind than
a
national anthem for any country.'' (Rabindaranath Tagore, a Centenary
Vol.p.152)
And let us see what are the sentiments expressed by many about VM:
Vandemataram was an expression of nationalism, its very soul, and
therefore
the natinal anthem. It quickly spread throughout India, and was on the
lips of
millions as the national anthem. (Maharishi Aurobind in `Mahayogi' p.47)
``The greatest and most enduring gift of the swedeshi movement was
Vande
Mataram, the uncrowned national anthem.'' (The Cambridge History of
India,
Vol.IV, p.608)
``Bankim Chandra Chatterjee's poem Vande Mataram first appeared in
his
novel Anandamath in 1882, and soon became the Merseillaise of the
nationalist
movement throughout India.'' (A Book of India, B.N. Pande, p.67)
``Bande Mataram: A song which occurs in Bankim Chatterjee's novel.
The song
was quite popular during nationalist agitations in the early part of
this
century in Bengal. Subsequently it became a kind of unofficial national
anthem.'' (Nehru, The first sixty years, Vol.II, p.577)
``Vandemataram, which at the beginning of the 20th century became the
anthem
of the Indian nationalist movement, is the motherland personified.''
(Tilak and
the Struggle for Indian Freedom, p.253)
``Vande Mataram! These are the magic words which will open the door
of his
iron safe, break through the walls of his strong room, and confound the
hearts
of those who are disloyal to its call to say Vande Mataram.''
(Rabindranath
Tagore in Glorious Thoughts of Tagore, p.165)
Therefore, it was the natural expectation that this great national
anthem
would continue as the official national anthem of India. It was used in
the
Constituent assembly, and was sung by Smt. Sucheta Kriplani. But soon a
dis-
cordant note began to be heard. Much to the surprise of its own members,
the
Constituent assembly deferred the question of adopting the national
anthem
again and again. Who were behind the controversy and what were their
motives?
The following excerpt from Pt. Nehru's statement on this issue may
provide
some clue:
``It is unfortunate that some kind of argument has arisen between VM
and Jana.
VM is obviously and indisputedly the premier national song of India,
with a
great historical tradition and intimately connected with our struggle
for
freedom. That position it is bound to retain and no other song can
displace
it. It represents the passion and poignancy of that struggle but perhaps
not
so much the culmination of it. In regard to the national anthem tune, it
was
felt that the tune was more important than the words, and this tune
should be
such as to represent the Indian musical genius as well as to some extent
the
Western, so that it might easily be adapted to orchestra and band music,
and
to playing abroad. The real significance of the national anthem is
perhaps
more abroad than in the home country. Past experience has shown that
Janagana
tune has been greatly appreciated and admired abroad...VM with all its
very
great attraction and historical background, was not easily suitable for
orchastras in foreign countries.. It seemed therefore that while VM
should
continue to be the national song par excellence in India, the national
anthem
tune should be that of Janaganamana, and the wording of Janagana be
altered
suitably to fit in with existing circumstances.'' (Glorious Thoughts of
Nehru,
p.139)
The above rational and criteria for selecting a national anthem
coming from
the PM, had shocked the people of India. These ideas of Nehru's were
severly
criticised in the press and in other forums universally. The gallup
polls
conducted by some organizations on this issue showed that 95% people
favored
VM as the national anthem.
``When the objection was raised to the adoption of VM as the national
anthem on the ground that it was full of idolatry, Aurobindo said Durga
to
whom it paid homage was none other than Bharata Mata symbolising
Knowledge,
Power, Greatness and Glory.'' (Resurgent India, p.191)
The charge that VM cannot be set to the tune to suit band and foreign
orchestra was disproved when it was set to melodious tune by an ace
musician
Master Krishna Rao, but Nehru ji did not budge. And Dr Rajendra Prasad
who
was presiding the Constituent assembly on 24 January 1950 made the
following
statement which also became the final decision on this issue:
``The composition consisting of words and music known as Janaganamana
is
the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the
Government
may authorise as occasion arises, and the song Vande Mataram, which has
played
a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honored
equally
with Janaganamana and shall have equal status with it. (Applause) I hope
this
will satify members.'' (Constituent Assembly of India, Vil.XII,
24-1-1950)
-----------------------------------------
>
> Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
> 5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
> find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
> "Sanchayita".
<stuff deleted>
It was really good that you posted all the stanzas..the translation too
was
good... but I think you missed one stanza .. (I am recollecting this
from my
memory)
aharaha tava aahvaana himaachal, suni tava udaar baanI,
hindu-bauddha-sikh-jaina-paarasik musalmaan krishTaanI,
pUrab pashchim yaashe, tava simhaasan paashe ...
.......
Could you complete the remaining lines ???
This stanza, obviously refers to the various religions practised in
India..
The objection that was raised to it's inclusion at that time was that
even if a new religion is formed in future, India will welcome it (Glory
to the great Hindu thought !) .. and the people of that religion may
feel that theirs is not included in the national anthem !
-Sankara Narayanan
Samir Dhume
This looks like a definition of irreverence that
is not familiar to me (and possibly Webster).
Samir
Samir Dhume
>
> I don't know what the hell the national anthem means.
> I wonder whether more than 2% of tamilnadu students know the
> meaning of national anthem.
>
> May be if they could have appreciated the meaning of that
> Jana Gana stuff (if there is any) they may not have created
> the spoof.
>
> By the way, what language is that "Jana Gana" stuff. ?!
> I am guessing it to be bengali.
> I wouldn't be surprised if it is Hindi or Marathi.
Somehow indignation doesn't go well with ignorance.
The language is Bengali. I will not, of course,
explain the meaning of the 'Jana Gana stuff' to you.
Cheers,
Samir
Kathiravan
In article <333EAF...@indiana.edu>, Samir Dhume <sdh...@indiana.edu> writes:
|> V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote:
|> >
|> > On Mar 30, 1997 14:21:57 in article <Re: Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof
|> >
|>
|> >
|> > Nothing is to be left untouched by irreverance
|> >
|>
|> Perhaps tomorrow you might want to use the tricolor
|> as toilet paper ?
|>
|> Spit on your father's photograph ? It's only paper,
|> after all. If you have qualms, allow me to.
|>
|> Samir
Why are you so worked up at this
and resort to personal abuse.
If you considered something so holy
why did you leave for a plastic card.
Most of the politicians who governmed India
did use Tricolor and Gandhi's photo as tiolet
tissue. That is why you are here Don't tell
me that you came here to get Nobel prize.
If India is contained only in the tricolor
flag that NRIs raise and cut cakes on republic
day let it not exist.
Gopala Ganesh
Hi!
The spoof was a song made up of popular south Indian foods, sung to the
tune of JGM. Nothing more, nothing less! There was no disrespect to
India or JGM in it!! As such, don't get worked up, friends!!! relax!!!! -
ganesh
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Sankara Narayanan (san...@vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
: My dear Nalinaksha,
: A lie repeated frequently becomes a truth eventually .. but alas, even
: the
: sheer TRUTH, just because it comes from the Saffron brigade becomes a
: lie ..huh ?
: It is pathetic that at present only the saffron camp is lobbying for the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: truly nationalistic ideas, including Vande Mataram... BTW, as per the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think that the nationalism of Saffron is poison.
: Indian constitution , Vande Mataram should be treated with EQUAL
: respect as that of jana-gana-mana (read the article below).
: Here is the account of true events .... compiled from 2 main sources :
: 1. Excerpts from ``Story of a Song: Ecstacy and Agony'' by Shivaramu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nachiketa has been quoting from this book and has given quotes from the
same parts which you have utilised. Please give the following information
1. Publisher of the book, year of publication.
2. Credentials of Shivaramu.
Nachiketa, despite my many requests did not provide these informations.
: GENESIS OF JANAGANAMANA:
: W.B. Yeats is a great Irish poet. He was a friend of Tagore's,
: and a great admirer of his works. He wrote a beautiful introduction
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The great Shivaramu might not have known that the relationship between
Yeats and Tagore deteriorated later.
: to Tagore's Gitanjali. Once an Indian disciple of Tagore met Yeats.
: In a letter to Lady Gregory in America, Yeats mentioned that he had
: told him that Sarojini Naidu's brother was unhappy that Tagore wrote
: a poem welcoming King George V. He also narrated to her an appetising
: story he had from the disciple warning her that it was strictly off the
: record. It concerns the circumstances in which Janaganamana
: was composed: ``The National Congress people asked Tagore for a poem
: of welcome. He tried to write it, but could not. He got up very early
: in the morning and wrote a very beautiful poem, not one of his best,
: but still beautiful. When he came down, he said to one of us, `Here is
: a poem which I have written. It is addressed to God, but give it to
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Congress
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: people. It will please them. They will think it is addressed to the
: King.
: ' All Tagore's own followers knew it meant God, but others did not.''
: (The Indian Express, June 3, 1968)
If this story is true, then the song was composed in praise of God, the
way Tagore conceived him to be. It is however curious that Congress asked
for a poem to welcome the King. Now, if the poet says that he wrote the
poem in praise of God, then that should end the matter and it ,by itself,
proves that the poem was NOT written to salute King George.
: The Calcutta Congress session began on December 26, 1911. The
: proceedings on the first day began with Vandemataram. The second day was
: entirely devoted to things connected with the welcoming of King George
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: V,
~~~~~~~~~
Did King George attend this session? Does any body know.
: and this day the song Janaganamana was sung, and at the closing ceremony
: Rajbhuja Dutt Choudhary's 'Badshah Hamara' was sung. On the third day
: Saraladevi sang her own composition 'Namo Hindustan'.
: The news papers reports had the following comments on Janaganaman:
: ``The Bengali poet Babu Rabindranath Tagore sang a song composed by
: him
: specially to welcome the Emperor.'' (Statesman, Dec.28, 1911)
: ``The proceedings began with the singing by Babu Rabindranath Tagore
: of a
: song specially composed by him in honour of the Emperor.'' (Englishman,
: Dec.28).
: ``When the proceedings of the Indian National Congress began on
: Wednesday
: 27th December 1911, a Bengali song in welcome of the Emperor was sung. A
: resolution welcoming the Emperor and Empress was also adopted
: unanomously.''
: (Indian, Dec. 29, 1911)
It is extermely curious that
a)None of the reports mention the name of the song.
b)None of the reports mention whether a public announcement was made
prior to the singing of the song to the effect that the song was composed
in praise of the emperor. Does Shivaramu through a light on this subject?
c)Two of the papers were well known for their pro-british stance-namely,
Englishman and Statesman.
: In the eyes of many leaders of the day, loyalty to the nation and
: loyalty
: to the Emperor were identical. King George V had proclaimed on Dec.12
: the
: annulment of the partition of Bengal. There was therefore nothing
: unnatural
: or extraordinary in a Bengali poet, Rabindranath Tagore, composing or
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is also extremely curious that Shivaramu ignores the earlier statement
attributed to the poet that the song was composed in praise of God.
: singing
: a song in praise of the Emperor out of gratitude. But differences of
: opinion
: were bound to arise when the question of its adoption as the national
: anthem
: came up. The choice of a national anthem should undoubtedly be one which
: can
: be a fountain of inspiration by the sanctity of its origin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All very laudable objective. Let me add that I have no opinion on the
suitability or lack of it of Jana Gana Mana as a national anthem.
However, this display of patriotic fervour is somewhat suspect because
clearly Shivaramu did not find it amiss that, as per his narration, it was
the Congress party which organised the welcome. Also his statement about
loyality to country being equivalent to loyality to the king in the
mindset of the then leaders show that he had no idea of the intensity of
Banga-Vanga Aandolan.
: Rabindranath Tagore did not contradict newspaper reports which
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
According to Arnab Gupta's posting he did!
: characterised
: Janaganamana as a song composed in honour of King George V. Gradually
: the tide
: of nationalism began to affect the old values. Loyalty to the country
: and
: loyalty to the King became irreconcilable. Honour, devotion and love of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: the
: country not only ceased to co-exist with honour, devotion and love of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: King
: Emperor, but mutually antagonistic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When did this transition occurr? Did the Banga-Vanga aandolan thought
that love for country is equal to love for the king? Once again what are
Shiva Ramu's credentials? The authors of the book quoted by me ("Khaki
Shorts and Saffron Flag") were academics.
: Also the British government which was charging people with sedition
: for
: singing Vande Mataram extended high regard to Janaganamana. It was sung
: in
: Government schools, and in scout groups which fostered loyalty to the
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All the narrations of Bengali school life in those days must have missed
this singing of Jana Gana Mana or may be it was not implemented in
Bengal! Mostly the Govt.schools sang God save the King.
: British
: throne. At the time British quit India, a fighter plane was presented by
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How come we are just left with a one liner-is there a newspaper report
of this incident?
: England to India, and on this occasion Janaganamana was sung. The
: British
: also praised the song. It is anybody's guess as to why they praised it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When and where did the British praise it?
: Mahatma Gandhi wanted Vande Mataram to be our national anthem. The
: song
: was invariably sung at his prayer meetings. After Vande Matram was sung
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Was it? I thought it was Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram.......
:
: It came as a great shock to the people that Maulana Md. Ali should
: object
: the singing of Vande Mataram. There was no doubt that this was an
: indication
: of a mentality of separatism which refused to identify itself with the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: main-
: stream of national life. But this episode did little damage either to
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The chauvinistic slip is showing!. Mohammed Ali objected to the song
being sung on the ground that it is against his religious belief.
Paluskar believed that he had a right to sing the song and went ahead
and sang it. Paluskar certainly had the right, but why does Shivaramu
conclude that the assertion that music is taboo makes Mohammed Ali the
separatist? Or is it that nationalism is as defined by Hindus only?
: The opposition of Muslim League to Vande Mataram, however, continued
: to
: wax and they started putting pressure on Congress leadership against the
: sing-
: ing of this song. It was the height of irony on the part of the Muslim
: League,
: which was bent upon breaking the unity of India, emotionally,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: geographically,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: and in all other ways, to express its concern about `the growth of
: genuine
: natinalism'. Those in Congress who were eager to pander to every
: slightest
: wish of the League were agitated, and a feeling developed that unless ML
: is
: dissatisfied and it was won over the unity of the country would be
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: imperilled.
: In such a situation CWC in 1937 decided to maim and curtail the national
: song.
The above paragraph is cock and bull. Nehru's shameful sabotage of
Cabinet Mission plan is now well known. So is the way Badshah Khan was
left high and dry. We all know about League's complicity in partition.
Congress also is equally guilty of partition. Once again Shivaramu's
credentials please. Also let us know whether he was/is a member of RSS/BJP.
: ``Anandmath was the story of a heroic struggle against foreign rule.
: Because
: it happened to be a Muslim rule, a fresh objection was raised. Bankim's
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So the Muslims were "foreign"!.How were these muslim rulers foreigners?
They were as much Indian as you or me.
: object was to arouse through his novels a patriotic awakening among the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: people
: so that they became consious of their slavery under the British. He
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: couldn't
: do it overtly, but his fiction achieved the purpose. The revolutinaries
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
motivation was to save his job.
: of
: Bengal accepted it in this spirit in the early part of the century; it
: bacame
: the mantra of those who mounted the gallows in a bid to emanicipate the
: country
: >from alien bondage...The Congress, however, in order to conciliate the Muslims,
: mutilated the song and ordered that only first two stanzas of it should
: be
: sung.'' (Muslim Politics, S. Mukherjee, p.53)
Vande Mataram did play a historic role and was the slogan of our martyrs.
However, the author S Mukherjee seems to use the well known language of
Muslim baiting. Is the full name by any chance Syama Prasad Mukerjee?
": orchastras in foreign countries.. It seemed therefore that while VM
: should
: continue to be the national song par excellence in India, the national
: anthem
: tune should be that of Janaganamana, and the wording of Janagana be
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: altered
: suitably to fit in with existing circumstances.'' (Glorious Thoughts of
: Nehru,
: p.139)
I have deleted the voluminous quotes you have reproduced in narrating the
historic role of Vande Mataram. This is not disputed. What is disputed
(by me) is that Jana Gana Mana was composed to eulogise King George. The
praise of Vande Mataram is a non-sequiter. I would also like to know how
was the wording of Jana Gana Mana altered?
: criticised in the press and in other forums universally. The gallup
: polls
: conducted by some organizations on this issue showed that 95% people
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: favored
: VM as the national anthem.
Gallup poll indeed! Who conducted it and when and how?
: ``When the objection was raised to the adoption of VM as the national
: anthem on the ground that it was full of idolatry, Aurobindo said Durga
: to
: whom it paid homage was none other than Bharata Mata symbolising
: Knowledge,
: Power, Greatness and Glory.'' (Resurgent India, p.191)
The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
: ``The composition consisting of words and music known as Janaganamana
: is
: the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pray what were the alterations if any?
: >
: > Let us examine the song itself. The poem is named "BharatBidhata". It has
: > 5 stanzas-out of which the first stanza is our National Anthem. You can
: > find the poem in the popular collection of Rabindranath's poems called
: > "Sanchayita".
: <stuff deleted>
: It was really good that you posted all the stanzas..the translation too
: was
: good... but I think you missed one stanza .. (I am recollecting this
: from my
: memory)
: aharaha tava aahvaana himaachal, suni tava udaar baanI,
: hindu-bauddha-sikh-jaina-paarasik musalmaan krishTaanI,
: pUrab pashchim yaashe, tava simhaasan paashe ...
: .......
: Could you complete the remaining lines ???
Sure
..............................premhar hoy gatha
Jaya jaya jaya he, jaya Rajeshwar, Bharat Bhagya Bidhataa
: This stanza, obviously refers to the various religions practised in
: India..
: The objection that was raised to it's inclusion at that time was that
: even if a new religion is formed in future, India will welcome it (Glor
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
y
: to the great Hindu thought !) .. and the people of that religion may
: feel that theirs is not included in the national anthem !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am curious to know the name of the person who raised such an asinine
objection. Incidentally, I grew up in Assam. There has been lot of anti
Bengali propaganda in Assam. Many Assamese sincerely believe that
Rabindranath was anti-Assamese and thats why he did not include either
Assam in Panjab-Sindhu-Gujrat-Maratha-Dravir-Utkal-Banga or the mighty
Brahmaputra in Vindhya-Himachal-Jamuna-Ganga. As a result in many
official functions in Assam Jana Gana Mana was replaced with Lakshminath
Bezbarua's "Aa Mor AAponar Dexh". Considering that Tagore did not name
the Bahai, Shinto, Tao in his litany of religions the song should have
been instantly rejected:)).
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: Nachiketa has been quoting from this book and has given quotes from the
: same parts which you have utilised. Please give the following information
: 1. Publisher of the book, year of publication.
: 2. Credentials of Shivaramu.
: Nachiketa, despite my many requests did not provide these informations.
Listen. I have also given refs. from newspapers. Why do you
not go and check into the archives of these newspapers. I
am sure that you have contacts in India. And if you are so
acutely worried, pl. go and and check into that.
Or is it you habit to simply ask for refs. when you have
nothing substantial to add.
Still further, there has been atleast one more person,
(Arnab) who posted excerpts from a biography of RNT
which claims that there is a good chance that the song
was written for the king. His biography also says, that
RNT was approached the by INC folks to write such a songs,
and on the morning after, he did produce such a song.
And then RNT added, that the song was written for the
deity, but could be used for praise of God. But then
he did afterall accept the request of INC to write the
song. That creates a suspicion, that RNT quite possibly
and quite unhappily, did write a song to praise the king.
Still further, this song was sung in the INC session, in
praise of king. I am quite sure that Arnab's ref. might
also testify that. So you have two choices:
a) TO check into the accuracy of these refs. (papers, and Arnab's
ref.)
b) To complain, whine and then ask me to shut up, as you
did on a previous occasion.
: : GENESIS OF JANAGANAMANA:
: : W.B. Yeats is a great Irish poet. He was a friend of Tagore's,
: : and a great admirer of his works. He wrote a beautiful introduction
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: The great Shivaramu might not have known that the relationship between
: Yeats and Tagore deteriorated later.
And so, perhaps of spite, Yeats decided to tarnish RNT. Very
much like RSS in present times. Keep on going, NB, I am listening.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com
In article <5hvk6d$1n5$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) wrote:
<a lot of witty exchange with Shankar Narayan>
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
From what I understand, the objections raised by Md.Ali was that
according to Islam, a Muslim is not supposed to bow before anyone but
God. "Vande Mataram" meant "I bow to thee, Mother",- a religious paradox
for Muslim Indians. Therefore,as has always been the case,it was not
adopted as the National Anthem to pacify religious sentiments of a
particular community.
"Jana Gana Mana" and "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" both were considered, but
Iqbal having become fanatic pro-pakistani in his last days, his
composition was rejected . Jana Gana Mana was Hindi-ized from its
original Bengali rendering and accepted unanimously, with no scope of
resentment from any religious groups.
"Vande Mataram" was systematically phased out by pseudo-secularists(
and,I am quite ashamed to say, even Mahatma Gandhi, who considered the
song an emblem of the violence-minded freedom fighters) even though it
was the song of mass appeal at the time of independence. Forgetting
history, "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" was prodded on at every
occasion(especially by Gandhiji and his henchman Chacha Nehru),- the
result is the regular playing of this song by the Military Band at every
Independence and Republic Day parades to this day.
Instead of there being disputes over "Vande Mataram" versus "Jana Gana
Mana" , both of which can ostensibly serve as our National Anthem, we
should try to revive the "Vande Mataram" as truly the National Song,- it
would make more sense to issue official orders to the organizers of the
bands to play it instead of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha".
Such is the pseudo-secular push for "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" that (I
forget the name of the event) in the last Asian Games, one Indian Medal
winner was (mistakenly ??????) greeted at the medal-award-podium with the
tune of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" INSTEAD OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM !!!!
what a shame!!!!!!!!
The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
-Apurba Krishna Sircar
"I can resist everything but Temptation" -Oscar Wilde
N. Tiwari
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: In article <5hvk6d$1n5$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
: bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) wrote:
: <a lot of witty exchange with Shankar Narayan>
: > Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
: From what I understand, the objections raised by Md.Ali was that
: according to Islam, a Muslim is not supposed to bow before anyone but
: God. "Vande Mataram" meant "I bow to thee, Mother",- a religious paradox
: for Muslim Indians. Therefore,as has always been the case,it was not
: adopted as the National Anthem to pacify religious sentiments of a
: particular community.
: "Jana Gana Mana" and "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" both were considered, but
: Iqbal having become fanatic pro-pakistani in his last days, his
: composition was rejected . Jana Gana Mana was Hindi-ized from its
: original Bengali rendering and accepted unanimously, with no scope of
: resentment from any religious groups.
Actually, there was a lot of resentment from the Vande Mataram
bhaktas. Gandhi was one of those persons, who favored VM. But
Chacha, was indeed the boss.
: "Vande Mataram" was systematically phased out by pseudo-secularists(
: and,I am quite ashamed to say, even Mahatma Gandhi, who considered the
: song an emblem of the violence-minded freedom fighters) even though it
: was the song of mass appeal at the time of independence. Forgetting
: history, "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" was prodded on at every
: occasion(especially by Gandhiji and his henchman Chacha Nehru),- the
: result is the regular playing of this song by the Military Band at every
: Independence and Republic Day parades to this day.
Is that right. THis will indeed be news to me, that Gandhiji
actually oppose the usage of Vande Mataram. I thought otherwise. Could you
pl. substantiate this claim of yours. Irrespective of Gandhiji's
views, I feel that Vande Mataram, is much more aesthetic,
much more moving, and much more beautiful tribute to Bharat
Mataa. Iqbal's song, is a song about lifeless land, while
VM is about a mataa. Jana Gana is a song about king, (or
according to Nalinaksha and others, about God), but
definitely not about mother India.
: Instead of there being disputes over "Vande Mataram" versus "Jana Gana
: Mana" , both of which can ostensibly serve as our National Anthem, we
: should try to revive the "Vande Mataram" as truly the National Song,- it
: would make more sense to issue official orders to the organizers of the
: bands to play it instead of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha".
: Such is the pseudo-secular push for "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" that (I
: forget the name of the event) in the last Asian Games, one Indian Medal
: winner was (mistakenly ??????) greeted at the medal-award-podium with the
: tune of "Saare Jahaan Se Achchha" INSTEAD OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM !!!!
: what a shame!!!!!!!!
A shame indeed.
: The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
: push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
: for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
: daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
: the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
I personally do not care about Jana Gana Mana. To me, it is
pretty uninspiring. However, I still feel moved, when I revisit
my days in India. During those days, each morning, on Vividh
Bharati, the first song which was sung was Vande Mataram. A
group of men and women used to do that. That used to be a good
thing to begin with. Also, Hemant Kumar's rendition of the
song, in movie Vande Mataram, is quite beautiful, though difficult
to sing. I totally agree that conscious efforts should
be made to restore Vande Mataram to its pristine glory. To me,
it acts like a mantra.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Srabani Banerjee
asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
[...]
> The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> daily.
In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
down people's throats. Why?
Srabani
d...@csd.uwm.edu
Can we please keep this thread OUT of rec.music.indian.classical?
Please.
Balaji Gadhiraju
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
>
> Sankara Narayanan (san...@vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
> I am curious to know the name of the person who raised such an asinine
> objection. Incidentally, I grew up in Assam. There has been lot of anti
> Bengali propaganda in Assam. Many Assamese sincerely believe that
> Rabindranath was anti-Assamese and thats why he did not include either
> Assam in Panjab-Sindhu-Gujrat-Maratha-Dravir-Utkal-Banga or the mighty
> Brahmaputra in Vindhya-Himachal-Jamuna-Ganga. As a result in many
> official functions in Assam Jana Gana Mana was replaced with Lakshminath
> Bezbarua's "Aa Mor AAponar Dexh". Considering that Tagore did not name
> the Bahai, Shinto, Tao in his litany of religions the song should have
> been instantly rejected:)).
>
>
> --
> Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
I don't know why Ravindranath Tagore referred to entire south india as
dravid, where as there are four major independent cultures there, like
any of the cultures he specifically refers to like Punjab-sindhu-gujarat
etc.
May be he was ignorant about these facts. But it is not proper to club
around 30% of population into some "misc" category.
By the way Andhra Pradesh has it's own defacto state anthem.
I am curious to know if other states also have similar songs?
Regards,
balaji.
--
Sankara Narayanan
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya wrote:
> : a poem which I have written. It is addressed to God, but give it to
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : Congress
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : people. It will please them. They will think it is addressed to the
> : King.
> : ' All Tagore's own followers knew it meant God, but others did not.''
> : (The Indian Express, June 3, 1968)
>
> If this story is true, then the song was composed in praise of God, the
> way Tagore conceived him to be. It is however curious that Congress asked
> for a poem to welcome the King. Now, if the poet says that he wrote the
> poem in praise of God, then that should end the matter and it ,by itself,
> proves that the poem was NOT written to salute King George.
That's right ! SO, Tagore accepted that it was written to praise
God.. not Mother India ... How can such a song be called a National
anthem of a secular state ??
<snip> <snip>
>
> : In the eyes of many leaders of the day, loyalty to the nation and
> : loyalty
> : to the Emperor were identical. King George V had proclaimed on Dec.12
> : the
> : annulment of the partition of Bengal. There was therefore nothing
> : unnatural
> : or extraordinary in a Bengali poet, Rabindranath Tagore, composing or
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> It is also extremely curious that Shivaramu ignores the earlier statement
> attributed to the poet that the song was composed in praise of God.
>
Shivaramu was right in predicting the sentiments of those times ..
Even some of the harcore freedom fighters of those days welcomed
the King during his visit to India.... It was considered as a
gesture of goodwill and positive outlook of the British Empire
towards India... B.G. TIlak welcomed the KIng. The Nationalist
poet from Tamil Nadu Subramanya Bharathi also composed a song
in praise of the King.
<snip> <snip>
> : Rabindranath Tagore did not contradict newspaper reports which
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> According to Arnab Gupta's posting he did!
May be .. that's interesting !
>
> : characterised
> : Janaganamana as a song composed in honour of King George V. Gradually
> : the tide
> : of nationalism began to affect the old values. Loyalty to the country
> : and
> : loyalty to the King became irreconcilable. Honour, devotion and love of
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : the
> : country not only ceased to co-exist with honour, devotion and love of
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : King
> : Emperor, but mutually antagonistic.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> When did this transition occurr? Did the Banga-Vanga aandolan thought
> that love for country is equal to love for the king? Once again what are
> Shiva Ramu's credentials? The authors of the book quoted by me ("Khaki
> Shorts and Saffron Flag") were academics.
This is ridiculous ! SOme of the historians and academics are treated
with what can be called as 'intellectual untouchability' just
because they bring out some truths which match the idelogy of the
Saffron camp ! Shivaramu is one of them.
The authors of "Khakhi Shirts ..." are well known for their bias
towards a camp and their childish pransks on some aspetcs connected
with Indian History and Nationalism.
<snip>
> : Mahatma Gandhi wanted Vande Mataram to be our national anthem. The
> : song
> : was invariably sung at his prayer meetings. After Vande Matram was sung
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Was it? I thought it was Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram.......
Actually Gandhiji's prayer consisted of many songs and Bhajans...
Vande Mataram was the first and foremost of the Nationalistic
songs sung in his prayer meetings.. Later on it included the full
version of Jana Gana Mana also ..Refer to "Ashram Bhajanavali",
A Book of Gandhian prayers in Hindi published by Navjivan Trust.
<snip>
>
> : It came as a great shock to the people that Maulana Md. Ali should
> : object
> : the singing of Vande Mataram. There was no doubt that this was an
> : indication
> : of a mentality of separatism which refused to identify itself with the
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : main-
> : stream of national life. But this episode did little damage either to
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> The chauvinistic slip is showing!. Mohammed Ali objected to the song
> being sung on the ground that it is against his religious belief.
> Paluskar believed that he had a right to sing the song and went ahead
> and sang it. Paluskar certainly had the right, but why does Shivaramu
> conclude that the assertion that music is taboo makes Mohammed Ali the
> separatist? Or is it that nationalism is as defined by Hindus only?
I don't find ANY chauvinitic slip here ! The point is that Md. Ali
objected to the singing of the Song which was the soul of Nationalistic
Movement and the Slogan of millions of Indians on the grounds that
it was against HIS RELIGION.. Does that mean only things supported
by HIS RELIGION should form the core of nationalism ?? THe point
is not music being taboo.. but disrespecting the nationalistic
sentiments based on the narrow parochial views of his religion !
<snip> <snip>
> : ``Anandmath was the story of a heroic struggle against foreign rule.
> : Because
> : it happened to be a Muslim rule, a fresh objection was raised. Bankim's
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> So the Muslims were "foreign"!.How were these muslim rulers foreigners?
> They were as much Indian as you or me.
>
> : object was to arouse through his novels a patriotic awakening among the
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : people
> : so that they became consious of their slavery under the British. He
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : couldn't
> : do it overtly, but his fiction achieved the purpose. The revolutinaries
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
> was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
> sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
> the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
> motivation was to save his job.
I think it is a big inslut on one of the great partiots of country,
who gave us the inspiring slogan of "Vande Mataram".. Showing the
kings who fought against the Muslim Imperialism as Heros is not just
specific to Anandmath ..
During the freedom movement, SHivaji Maharaj was projected as a great
hero, all over India particularly in Maharashtra ... NOt just because
he opposed Muslims, because of his quest for freedom, Same was true
with Rana Pratap Singh , Guru Gobind SIngh etc..
>
> : of
> : Bengal accepted it in this spirit in the early part of the century; it
> : bacame
> : the mantra of those who mounted the gallows in a bid to emanicipate the
> : country
> : >from alien bondage...The Congress, however, in order to conciliate the Muslims,
> : mutilated the song and ordered that only first two stanzas of it should
> : be
> : sung.'' (Muslim Politics, S. Mukherjee, p.53)
>
> Vande Mataram did play a historic role and was the slogan of our martyrs.
> However, the author S Mukherjee seems to use the well known language of
> Muslim baiting. Is the full name by any chance Syama Prasad Mukerjee?
That's what I said in the begining .. DOes truth become
false just because it comes from Saffron Camp ?? BTW, this
is another Mukherjee, not Shyama Prasad.
>
> ": orchastras in foreign countries.. It seemed therefore that while VM
> : should
> : continue to be the national song par excellence in India, the national
> : anthem
> : tune should be that of Janaganamana, and the wording of Janagana be
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : altered
> : suitably to fit in with existing circumstances.'' (Glorious Thoughts of
> : Nehru,
> : p.139)
>
> I have deleted the voluminous quotes you have reproduced in narrating the
> historic role of Vande Mataram. This is not disputed. What is disputed
> (by me) is that Jana Gana Mana was composed to eulogise King George. The
> praise of Vande Mataram is a non-sequiter. I would also like to know how
> was the wording of Jana Gana Mana altered?
Agreed with the first part of your above statement.. the significance
of all those quotes IS that everyone who praised VM called it an
unoffical National Anthem and a great portrayal of Indian
Nationhood... But Jana gana Mana never received any such remark
from anybody, even if we assume that JGM was composed to praise
GOd and not the KIng, still it does not make it any better to
the already existing National Anthem, VM.
GIven the historic role of VM, what is disputed by me is that why was
it thrown out and a new song with shallow emotions and inspiration
made the national anthem, just to satisfy the whims and fancies
of some people/groups.
The think the alteration of the wordings here mean the Hindi-sation
of the original Bengali version.
>
> : criticised in the press and in other forums universally. The gallup
> : polls
> : conducted by some organizations on this issue showed that 95% people
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : favored
> : VM as the national anthem.
>
> Gallup poll indeed! Who conducted it and when and how?
I don't have any resources as proof at this moment to foster this
argument. Will reproduce one if I get it.
>
> : ``When the objection was raised to the adoption of VM as the national
> : anthem on the ground that it was full of idolatry, Aurobindo said Durga
> : to
> : whom it paid homage was none other than Bharata Mata symbolising
> : Knowledge,
> : Power, Greatness and Glory.'' (Resurgent India, p.191)
>
> The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
> worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
> claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
> They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
> as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
This demand is NOT AT ALL reasonable. I would describe it as anti-
naional and intolerant..
First of all, it is a false objection to call VM as a song of idolatory
!
It praises the natural resources of the great land of India and
expresses solidarity towards the Mother India ...
Just because it was sung in praise of Durga Ma doesn't make it a
idolatory or religious song ... I am just curious to know whether
Islamic beleif allows even the idea of National Anthem or not ! Because
the national anthem praises the NATION and not Allah !
I would also like to know what are the national anthems of Strictly
Islamic countires (Saudi Arabia, Iran etc.) and whether they
praise anything other than Allah or Islam !
If such is thre case, why can't Muslims oppose the national emblem
of India, which is an IDOL from an ancient pillar, of lions, chakra
and bull ? Above all, it's engraved with the words 'Satyameve
Jayate' from Mundaka Upanishad, holy book of Hindus ?
Do they have the courage to do it ??
This is nothing but Muslim communalism and Fundamentalism,
whch finds fault with every damn thing saying it's against
ISlam ! I am surprised how a sensible person like you
could defend a filthy argument like this !
>
> : ``The composition consisting of words and music known as Janaganamana
> : is
> : the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations as the
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Pray what were the alterations if any?
The alteraions meant the dropping of the other stanzas, except
the first one .. Pl. remember that the above lines are quoted
from the Proceedings of Lok Sabha,.. they are not the views
of any individual !
-Sankara Narayanan
Supratik Das
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
> In article <5hvk6d$1n5$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
> bha...@unixg.ubc.ca (Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya) wrote:
> <a lot of witty exchange with Shankar Narayan>
> > Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
> From what I understand, the objections raised by Md.Ali was that
> according to Islam, a Muslim is not supposed to bow before anyone but
> God. "Vande Mataram" meant "I bow to thee, Mother",- a religious paradox
> for Muslim Indians. Therefore,as has always been the case,it was not
> adopted as the National Anthem to pacify religious sentiments of a
> particular community.
I am in absolute agreement with the rest of your post. I think Vande Mataram
should definitely be revived. The arguement about worshipping the mother
is illogocal because this is meant to eulogize the motherland i.e. the
LAND. Countless Muslim countries have national songs which eulogize the
'Fatherland'. The arguement against 'Vande Mataram' forwarded by pseudos
and plefties like Nalinaksha is stupid. Nalinaksha and comrades can in the
meantime sing 'Vande Mao Tse Tung....' if he wishes. India is free
country after all.
> The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
> the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
Since you brought it up I'll let you know that the 'Saffron Brigade'
tried that but were time and again prevented from doing so. They
tried it in UP and the Left in colloboration with that decent fellow
Mulayam jumped up and down with their dhotis. Of course the
Congressi hoodlums cannot be expected to understand such delicate
matters as national anthem, etc. India is the only country (I don't know
of any other) which doesn't ask its schoolchildren to sing the national
anthem (I am not even talking about the national song) regularly. The
pseudo garbage wouldn't allow it even though their Commie brethen
elsewhere do sing such songs sometimes in praise of Mao as in China.
> -Apurba Krishna Sircar
Supratik
Uday S. Reddy
Mr. Narayanan,
I notice that despite repeated urgings by N.Bhattacharya, you have
provided no information about the credentials of this Mr. Shivaramu
that you quoted at length. That is important because without knowing
he is, we don't know how authentic his information is, what his
standards of proof are etc. (I know Indian publishers often don't
give us information about the authors. But have you tried to find
out?) Any knowledge of his ideological leanings is also important
because obviously ideology colors one's historical perceptions.
>
> That's right ! SO, Tagore accepted that it was written to praise
> God.. not Mother India ... How can such a song be called a National
> anthem of a secular state ??
First of all, you seem to be accepting that Tagore wrote it in praise
of God. If so, this puts to rest the obscene accusation that it was
written in praise of King George.
I don't find it significant that it is not written in praise of
"Mother India." The poem symbolizes praying to God, collectively as a
nation, and asking for his blessings for the welfare of the nation. I
see nothing unnational about that.
I rather doubt that it is your program here to argue on behalf of
secularism. But, in any case, the "secularism" of India does not mean
Godlessness, it means that the government must transcend the sectarian
religious boundaries. If some atheist that does not believe in God at
all, complains that his national anthem is forcing him to pray to God,
I guess we will have reason to contemplate. But, we are a long way
from that yet.
>
> Shivaramu was right in predicting the sentiments of those times ..
> Even some of the harcore freedom fighters of those days welcomed
> the King during his visit to India.... It was considered as a
> gesture of goodwill and positive outlook of the British Empire
> towards India... B.G. TIlak welcomed the KIng. The Nationalist
> poet from Tamil Nadu Subramanya Bharathi also composed a song
> in praise of the King.
It is one thing to "welcome" the King and quite another to praise him
as the "Jana gana mana adhinaayak," don't you think? Tagore wasn't
welcoming anybody in his poem. I find it quite insulting for anybody
to suggest that Tagore was calling King George the "Bharat Bhagya
Vidhata" and even worse to suggest that we sing it everyday in total
ignorance!
> > I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
> > was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
> > sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
> > the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
> > motivation was to save his job.
>
> I think it is a big inslut on one of the great partiots of country,
> who gave us the inspiring slogan of "Vande Mataram".. Showing the
> kings who fought against the Muslim Imperialism as Heros is not just
> specific to Anandmath ..
NB gave the facts. He didn't insult anybody. Are you or are you not
accepting the claim that the first edition of Anandamath was about
struggle against the British?
> > Vande Mataram did play a historic role and was the slogan of our martyrs.
> > However, the author S Mukherjee seems to use the well known language of
> > Muslim baiting. Is the full name by any chance Syama Prasad Mukerjee?
>
> That's what I said in the begining .. DOes truth become
> false just because it comes from Saffron Camp ?? BTW, this
> is another Mukherjee, not Shyama Prasad.
How do you know? And, what is his full name, if you do know?
[And, yes, anything that comes from the Hindutva adherents has to be
taken with a very large dose of salt and cross-checked with other
sources.]
> Agreed with the first part of your above statement.. the significance
> of all those quotes IS that everyone who praised VM called it an
> unoffical National Anthem and a great portrayal of Indian
> Nationhood... But Jana gana Mana never received any such remark
> from anybody, even if we assume that JGM was composed to praise
> GOd and not the KIng, still it does not make it any better to
> the already existing National Anthem, VM.
>
> GIven the historic role of VM, what is disputed by me is that why was
> it thrown out and a new song with shallow emotions and inspiration
> made the national anthem, just to satisfy the whims and fancies
> of some people/groups.
I will come to the question about why VM could have been thrown out as
the National Anthem. But, what do you have against JGM to complain
about it?
You are still free to sing VM. It has the status as a National song.
It is respected all over the country. After all, the Akash Vani
program everyday begins with VM. So, what are we fighting about?
> > The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
> > worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
> > claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
> > They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
> > as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
>
> This demand is NOT AT ALL reasonable. I would describe it as anti-
> naional and intolerant..
Nonsense. From what I understand, the reason Muslims oppose VM is
that it appears to *deify* India. And, that, according to their
religous beliefs, is not permissible. This is what they mean when
they call it "idolatory."
That is a serious objection as far as I am concerned. If Muslims find
the song against their religious beliefs, they should not be forced to
sing it.
Uday Reddy
Anonymous IU Student
Kathiravan wrote:
>
> In article <333EAF...@indiana.edu>, Samir Dhume <sdh...@indiana.edu> writes:
> |> V.C.Vijayaraghavan wrote:
> |> >
> |> > On Mar 30, 1997 14:21:57 in article <Re: Jana gana mana - a tamil spoof
> |> >
> |>
> |> >
> |> > Nothing is to be left untouched by irreverance
> |> >
> |>
> |> Perhaps tomorrow you might want to use the tricolor
> |> as toilet paper ?
> |>
> |> Spit on your father's photograph ? It's only paper,
> |> after all. If you have qualms, allow me to.
> |>
> |> Samir
>
> Why are you so worked up at this
> and resort to personal abuse.
> If you considered something so holy
> why did you leave for a plastic card.
>
What plastic card ? And what's that
got to do with disrespect to the flag
and the anthem ?
I'm not worked up and neither I am
getting personal or offensive. I just
gave an instance where something that I
might not particularly care about
might be an object of reverence for
someone else.
If you plan on being irreverent, at
least be consistent.
> Most of the politicians who governmed India
> did use Tricolor and Gandhi's photo as tiolet
> tissue. That is why you are here Don't tell
> me that you came here to get Nobel prize.
Okay I wont (but only since you ask).
>
> If India is contained only in the tricolor
> flag that NRIs raise and cut cakes on republic
> day let it not exist.
I'm sure all this is relevant to the
discussion, though I cant see how.
Would a different mailing address suddenly
cast a different light on the matter ?
Cheers,
Samir
Ranjit Mathews Piravonu
Supratik Das wrote:
> I am in absolute agreement with the rest of your post. I think
> Vande Mataram should definitely be revived.
Is Vande Mataram worth quarreling over ? Jana Gana Mana has served
its purpose for a while now.
Ranjit Mathews Piravonu
Supratik Das wrote:
> I am in absolute agreement with the rest of your post. I think
> Vande Mataram should definitely be revived.
Is reviving Vande Mataram a higher priority than reducing the Muslim
birth rate ?
I was thinking about my reply to your posting yesterday and it struck
me that the 10 muslims added to India's population every year will
alter the balance in India faster than the Christians can gain
enough converts to create a third pole.
How do I get 10 million ?
Current estimates range up to 160 million Muslims.
Nearly half of them are below 20 & just getting ready to have 5
children.
So, we have 40 million women below 20 who will have 5 children
each in 20 years. That's 200 million children in 20 years or
10 million a year.
What about deaths ? Let's say illegal immigration more than balances
out deaths.
N. Tiwari
Followup to rmic removed.
Uday S. Reddy (re...@reddy.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Mr. Narayanan,
: I notice that despite repeated urgings by N.Bhattacharya, you have
: provided no information about the credentials of this Mr. Shivaramu
: that you quoted at length. That is important because without knowing
: he is, we don't know how authentic his information is, what his
: standards of proof are etc. (I know Indian publishers often don't
: give us information about the authors. But have you tried to find
: out?) Any knowledge of his ideological leanings is also important
: because obviously ideology colors one's historical perceptions.
The issue is not the credentials of Shivaramu or Nalinaksha's desires.
The issue is the accuracy of what is being asserted. There are
two things being said here;
a) That the song of RNT was composed and initially used by
INC to praise the King.
About this point, I feel that RNT did write it with some
hesitancy in praise of King. A couple of other do not. They
bank their assertion on the basis of RNT's denial that he
wrote it for the king. I base my assertion on the basis
of circumstances. The story goes like this:
RNT was approached by INC folks (source Arnab's biography
and Shivaramu's book) to write a song in praise of King.
The next morning, RNT did handout a song. But he added,
that I have written it for God, but you can use it for
your purposes. This to me at the very least illustrates
his confusion. At the max. it is a reflection of his
lack of conviction. Afterall, if I write a song for
purpose X, I will not willingly give it away to be
used for purpose Y. Specially, when Y stands for the praise
of an earthly tyrannical king, and X for praise of
the divine lord.
b) That the song is meaningless, as a national anthem.
A national anthem has to focus on nation. RNT's song
is about the ruler of a nation. (God or King). Hence
its status as our national anthem is ridiculous. It
is one more shining example of the intellectual
bankruptcy of the thekedars of our "secularism".
: First of all, you seem to be accepting that Tagore wrote it in praise
: of God. If so, this puts to rest the obscene accusation that it was
: written in praise of King George.
Mr. noone is infallible. Is criticism of RNT now "obscene".
RNT was indeed a supporter of British Raj in his earlier
times. You afterall do not get a knighthood for free.
BTW, did you criticise the misportrayal of Saraswati by
MF Hussain.
: I don't find it significant that it is not written in praise of
: "Mother India." The poem symbolizes praying to God, collectively as a
: nation, and asking for his blessings for the welfare of the nation. I
: see nothing unnational about that.
So much for your judgements. What the heck is a rashtra gaan
supposed to be about. ANd don't play with words like you have
done: "poem symbolizing praying to God, ....". It means nothing.
Despite all this verbiage, it still does not make it a rashtra
gaan.
Further, there is something national, something un_national,
and something a_national. RNT's song is not national. If
it praises God, then it is a_national. If it praises king,
then it is un_national.
: I rather doubt that it is your program here to argue on behalf of
: secularism. But, in any case, the "secularism" of India does not mean
: Godlessness,
"Secularism" is all about Godlesseness. Check your dictionary.
God ans secularism do not go together.
: [And, yes, anything that comes from the Hindutva adherents has to be
: taken with a very large dose of salt and cross-checked with other
: sources.]
That is you fundamental problem. Get over it. Remember, that
you have said: ANYTHING that comes from Hindutva cam....
Focus on the word ANYTHING, and explore the ridiculous_ness
of your assertion.
: I will come to the question about why VM could have been thrown out as
: the National Anthem. But, what do you have against JGM to complain
: about it?
The Constitution of Bharat, puts JGN and VM on EQUAL FOOTING.
However, the "secular" folks, because of not so unobvious
reasons, did manage to marginalise VM. And my gripe against
JGM has been explained above.
: > > The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
: > > worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
: > > claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
: > > They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
: > > as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
: >
: > This demand is NOT AT ALL reasonable. I would describe it as anti-
: > naional and intolerant..
: Nonsense. From what I understand, the reason Muslims oppose VM is
: that it appears to *deify* India. And, that, according to their
: religous beliefs, is not permissible. This is what they mean when
: they call it "idolatory."
: That is a serious objection as far as I am concerned. If Muslims find
: the song against their religious beliefs, they should not be forced to
: sing it.
Let those who have some problem, not sing it. But then, some
feelings should not get in the way of other's feelings. The
majority of India will have absolutely no problem in singing
VM. So, it should be made the sole soul song of India. And
believe me, if there were no "educationists" like you,
Muslims too would not be having chest pains, over the song.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
VB
>> The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
>> push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
>> for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
>> daily. That would be a fitting tribute to a song that quite literally was
>> the inspiration behind our Independence movement !
I'm not too sure about this. While (re)introducing VM is
quite commendable, why make it (VM,JGM or any such thingie)
*mandatory*? If a student doesnt sing VM/JGM, how would you
go about punishing him/her?
When you have 'patriotism-by-decree', you'll have 'patriots-
by-decree'; Is this what you want? An orwellian sheep-like
student body singing in one glorious voice? (then again, thus
spake the manifesto of the largest party in the land:
"one nation, one people, one culture").
As long as a student (like any other citizen of India) does
not go about deliberately defacing national icons, I think we
should let go easy; While someday in the near future we could
allow flag burning but our nation is too young, too ragtag, too
unsure of itself not to feel threatened by such actions.
Here's to the future.
>> -Apurba Krishna Sircar
>Supratik
N. Tiwari
VB (ba...@cs.umn.edu) wrote:
: Supratik Das <d...@aecom.yu.edu> writes:
: I'm not too sure about this. While (re)introducing VM is
: quite commendable, why make it (VM,JGM or any such thingie)
: *mandatory*? If a student doesnt sing VM/JGM, how would you
: go about punishing him/her?
Perhaps we are splitting too many hairs
here. In schools, it is quite common to
sing the national anthem, or a prayer
on certain occasions. I do not think
that anyone raises major ruckus
over such singing. Some of the crowd
sings, and some others, talk. And the
teachers, on quite a number of occasions
rebuke the ones who talk. But people still
talk, like I did. Not because people assert
their "right" to talk, but because people
too often forget the rebukes, and find
talking more enjoyable. And the game
continues. It is only on the fora like
sci where you could make a thread out
of it.
: When you have 'patriotism-by-decree', you'll have 'patriots-
: by-decree'; Is this what you want? An orwellian sheep-like
: student body singing in one glorious voice? (then again, thus
: spake the manifesto of the largest party in the land:
: "one nation, one people, one culture").
India is one nation. It is indeed one people. It has indeed
one culture. Many people prior to the current times have
made such claims. Gandhi for one. BJP is only re_echoing
what has been said earlier.
: As long as a student (like any other citizen of India) does
: not go about deliberately defacing national icons, I think we
: should let go easy; While someday in the near future we could
: allow flag burning but our nation is too young, too ragtag, too
: unsure of itself not to feel threatened by such actions.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Sankara Narayanan
Uday S. Reddy wrote:
>
> Mr. Narayanan,
>
> I notice that despite repeated urgings by N.Bhattacharya, you have
> provided no information about the credentials of this Mr. Shivaramu
> that you quoted at length. That is important because without knowing
> he is, we don't know how authentic his information is, what his
> standards of proof are etc. (I know Indian publishers often don't
> give us information about the authors. But have you tried to find
> out?) Any knowledge of his ideological leanings is also important
> because obviously ideology colors one's historical perceptions.
My Dear Uday,
Most part of Shivaramu's article quoted by me, contained facts
and quotes from many newspapers, magazines and some books...
It is just a compilation, nicely arranged to bring out the
various phases thru' which the controversey went thru'.
There is very less of views and opinions in that article.
If you think that even the quotations are altered, you are
free to refer to all the archives for their validity !
This apart, I have tried to find out info about the author... This
article is only the last part of a book authored by him on the subject
of
Vande Mataram song and the controversy surrounding it. Will post
once I get the info.
BTW< what makes you think there are ideological colours ??? The
article presented the info about both the songs in an impartial
manner.. IS it because, by any chance you are trying to look at
with coloured glasses ?
>
> >
> > That's right ! SO, Tagore accepted that it was written to praise
> > God.. not Mother India ... How can such a song be called a National
> > anthem of a secular state ??
>
> First of all, you seem to be accepting that Tagore wrote it in praise
> of God. If so, this puts to rest the obscene accusation that it was
> written in praise of King George.
>
> I don't find it significant that it is not written in praise of
> "Mother India." The poem symbolizes praying to God, collectively as a
> nation, and asking for his blessings for the welfare of the nation. I
> see nothing unnational about that.
>
> I rather doubt that it is your program here to argue on behalf of
> secularism. But, in any case, the "secularism" of India does not mean
> Godlessness, it means that the government must transcend the sectarian
> religious boundaries. If some atheist that does not believe in God at
> all, complains that his national anthem is forcing him to pray to God,
> I guess we will have reason to contemplate. But, we are a long way
> from that yet.
I agree to you here.. In fact the secularism practised in India is
a misnoker. Selcularism means (as per OXford English Dictionary) the
disassociation of any aspects of religion from any part of politics
or education..
But INdia has so many religious holidays etc... So what is practised
in the garb of secularism the age-old respect and tolerance for
all relgions ie. sarva-dharma-sama-bhava foster over centuries by
the Rishis and great men of Hindu religion..
Given that, I feel a national anthem SHOULD praise the nation, not
just it's geography, but every aspects of it's vibrant life, it's
very soul .. and that's why in the initial phases of Freedom
struggle, the entire nation accepted VM as the national anthem ..
ad please note that VM spread thru' the whole nation naturally
with the spreading of the Swadeshi movement.. and was already
in the hearts of millions as a symbol of nationalism.
> >
> > Shivaramu was right in predicting the sentiments of those times ..
> > Even some of the harcore freedom fighters of those days welcomed
> > the King during his visit to India.... It was considered as a
> > gesture of goodwill and positive outlook of the British Empire
> > towards India... B.G. TIlak welcomed the KIng. The Nationalist
> > poet from Tamil Nadu Subramanya Bharathi also composed a song
> > in praise of the King.
>
> It is one thing to "welcome" the King and quite another to praise him
> as the "Jana gana mana adhinaayak," don't you think? Tagore wasn't
> welcoming anybody in his poem. I find it quite insulting for anybody
> to suggest that Tagore was calling King George the "Bharat Bhagya
> Vidhata" and even worse to suggest that we sing it everyday in total
> ignorance!
Bharat-Bhagya-Bidhata means 'Ruler of India's Destiny'. If this title
perfectly suited somebody in those days,it was none other
than the BRitish King , right ?
(This doen't mean I'm saying he wrote it in praise of the King, I still
feel it was in praise of God)
>
> > > I suppose you know that in the first edition of Anandamath, the adversary
> > > was British. Bankim was a deputy magistrate. He was told that he could be
> > > sacked for writing a seditious novel. So in the second edition he changed
> > > the adversary from the British to the Muslim. In other words his
> > > motivation was to save his job.
> >
> > I think it is a big inslut on one of the great partiots of country,
> > who gave us the inspiring slogan of "Vande Mataram".. Showing the
> > kings who fought against the Muslim Imperialism as Heros is not just
> > specific to Anandmath ..
>
> NB gave the facts. He didn't insult anybody. Are you or are you not
> accepting the claim that the first edition of Anandamath was about
> struggle against the British?
LInking Anandmath and VM itself is not appropriate.. Bankim authored
VM as an independant song first and then incorporated it into his
novel... It should be noted that nobody wanted ANandmath to be
declared as a National Novel !So, VM should judged independently as
a song in itself.
Here is the account of the full story, compiled from the same soucres :
It is true that Vande Mataram blossomed forth in Anandamath, but it
is
even more true that it was Bankim's intention that it should blossom
forth
beyond Anandamath. For Vande Mataram, the song, was composed before
Anandamath was written.
How Bankim saw the wonderful vision that worked as a most powerful
spiri-
tual lever in the movement for his country's liberation, how he
immortalised
that vision in the hymn are not fully known. But this much is known that
one
auspicious moment arrived, in 1875, when Bankim took a holiday to escape
from
the hectic life of Calcutta. He boarded a train bound for his native
town
Kantalapada. As the city left behind, there was greenry all around and
his
heart filled with joy. The contemplation of the motherland with her rich
rivers, flowers, fruits and forests sent a pulsating current through
Bankim.
In that instant the sod was turned into divinity by magic. His eyes and
ears
became alert, hungry. His inner eye beheld the motherland in all her
rich
variety and beauty; his inner ear listened to voices from the earth, the
air
and the sky. And Nature begot her song! She gave it to benevolent
Bankim! He
bowed and received the gift. And then he reduced it to writing, as one
who
saw and heard the whole of it.
{\obeylines
Vande Mataram!
}
Those lakes, and rivers, the sacred Ganga, Jamuna, Godavari, Saraswati,
Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri; and those groves laden with fruits of many
kinds,
a very paradise on earth; and the soft breeze which gently kisses as it
passes by; and the endless greenry....
{\obeylines
Sujalam suphalam
Malayaja sheetalam
Sasya shyamalam
Mataram!
}
And the land bathed in moonlight, trees and creepers gay with tender
leaves
and flowers, the sweet smile and melodious voice.....
{\obeylines
Shubhra jyotsna pulakitayamineem
Phullakusumita drumadala shobhineem
Suhasineem sumadhura bhashineem
Sukhadam, varadam Mataram!
And the leonine roar that issues from multi-million throats; the
blinding
flash of millions of swords leaping up in an instant; and the spectacle
of
unfettered strength triumphantly trampling the enemy under its
elephantine
foot....
{\obeylines
Koti koti kantha kalakala ninadakarale
Koti koti bhujairdhrutakharakaravale
Ke bale ma tumi abale
Bahubala dharineem
Namami tarineem
Ripudala varineem
Mataram!
}
The ancient land of giver of the Vedas, and those centers of devotion,
power and knowledge....
{\obeylines
Tumi vidhya tumi dharma
Tumi hridi tumi marma
Twam hi pranah shareere
Bahute tumi ma shakti
Hridaye tumi ma bhakti
Tomarayi pratima gadi
Mandire mandire!
}
Jaya Durgi....Sri Lakshmi....Sri Saraswati... motherland! the Goddess
incarnate
{\obeylines
Twam hi Durga dashapraharana dharinee
Kamala kamaladala viharinee
Vani vidyadayinee
Namami twam
Namami kamalam
Amalam atulam
Sujalam suphalam
Mataram
Vande Mataram!
}
The one evergreen, ever new, and endowed with riches of many kinds....
{\obeylines
Shyamalam saralam
Susmitam bhushitam
Dharaneem bharaneem
Mataram!
}
The song was born, Bankim put the infant in the cradle of
Anandamath. He knew the great promise of the infant. The prophet was
aware
of the historic role it would play in times to come.
INCOPORATED IN ANANDMATH :
At the beginning of this novel:
A human voice breaks the midnight silence of a dark, dense forest:
``Will not my desire be fulfilled?''
``What price are you prepared to pay for it?'' The counter-question was
the
answer.
``My life, and all that is mine.''
``Your life is not of much moment; anyone can sacrifice it.''
``What else can I offer? Name the price.''
``Devotion!''
Holding life cheap, banishing the fear of death, devotion illumines
the
frontiers of the human mind in a sudden upsurge. The center of such
devo-
tion is Mother, the symbol of the Motherland! That was the premises on
which
the song Vandemataram gets incorporated in the novel.
A description of this Motherland occurs in Chapter 10:
Bhavananda is in a different mood. He is no more a sanaysin, bold and
infle-
xible. He is no more the ruthless general of the army. He isn't the
arrogant
man who a moment ago had humbled Mahendra. Amid the beauty of the land
and
water bathed in moonlight, his mind dances like an ocean in tide at the
sight
of the moon. Bhavananda turns gay and eager for friendly conversation.
He is
eager to talk. He makes many attempts to talk, but Mahendra does not
respond.
And then Bhavananda begins to sing for himself:
{\obeylines
Vande Mataram
Sujalam Suphalam
Malayaja Sheetalam
Mataram!
}
He sings with all his heart and soul, with great devotion, and his
masculine
voice, so pleasing to the ear, echoes and re-echoes, and filling the
whole
horizon with its resonance, creates an indescribable atmosphere...
Mahendra hears the song and is amazed. He cannot understand it. He asks
who
is the Mother, fed by rivers, fruit-bearing treas and fanned by the cool
breeze of the mountains.
Bhavananda does not seem to pay attention to the question. He is
immersed in
the song. Without pausing to answer him, he continues:
{\obeylines
Shubhrajyotsna pulakitayamineem
Phullakusumita drumadala shobhineem
.....
.....
}
Mahendra at first thinks that it may be an invocation to Durga. And then
he
feels it could not be. It is a description of the country, not of the
Goddess Durga. At that point Bhavananda wants to speak. The meaning of
the
song, and the way of his life, were not different. He explains it: ``We
do
not accept any other Mother. Jananee Janambhoomishcha swargadapi
gariyasi.
The motherland is our Mother; apart from her we have no mother, father,
brothers, wife or children, home of personal life; sujala, suphala,
malayaja
sheetalam, that is all we have.''
And then Mahendra understands the import of the song. He asks Bhavananda
to
continue the song. And as he sings tears roll down his cheeks...
And a new inspiration overcomes him. And now he is new person!
This is how other characters of the story get inspired and united. The
sublime characters which take part in the great story of Anandmath and
grow up
in elevating atmosphere display not only patriotism of a high order, but
also
the terrific strength of the sinews. They are living sparks which in the
face
of humiliation, burst into flames. They carry their love of the
motherland into
action. Koti koti kantha kalakala ninada karale! Koti koti bhujairdhruta
kharakaravale! These lines are then witnessed in earth-shaking events.
Individuals are mere tools.
The saga of the struggle and sacrifices of the heroes and martyres of
freedom is nothing but a manifestation of the unconquerable will of the
great Mother who inspired the saint and prophet Bankim to write
Anandamath
and give unto us Vande Mataram, the hymn of Liberty!
<snip> <Snip>
> > GIven the historic role of VM, what is disputed by me is that why was
> > it thrown out and a new song with shallow emotions and inspiration
> > made the national anthem, just to satisfy the whims and fancies
> > of some people/groups.
>
> I will come to the question about why VM could have been thrown out as
> the National Anthem. But, what do you have against JGM to complain
> about it?
>
> You are still free to sing VM. It has the status as a National song.
> It is respected all over the country. After all, the Akash Vani
> program everyday begins with VM. So, what are we fighting about?
>
I don't have aything aginst JGM.. I never said anything against it
in my posts also.. But Vande Mataram was a product of the true
and genuine emotions of the freedom struggle..
Congress and it's leardes buried all the good things and the
spirit of the national movement after independance and that's
why VM wa thrown out ..
Now again, the constitution says that VM enjoys EQUAL STATUS as
that of JGM .. SO, isn't it an anti-national act when somebody
opposes VM ?? Please answer.
> > > The point it that according to Islamic belief they cannot say that they
> > > worship an idol. In post independence India Muslim Leaders have often
> > > claimed that they be exempted from singing Vande Mataram on this ground.
> > > They also agreed that they would stand up when the song is being played
> > > as a mark of respect. I think this demand is a reasonable one.
> >
> > This demand is NOT AT ALL reasonable. I would describe it as anti-
> > naional and intolerant..
>
> Nonsense. From what I understand, the reason Muslims oppose VM is
> that it appears to *deify* India. And, that, according to their
> religous beliefs, is not permissible. This is what they mean when
> they call it "idolatory."
>
> That is a serious objection as far as I am concerned. If Muslims find
> the song against their religious beliefs, they should not be forced to
> sing it.
What is wrong in "deifying" India, if that was the spirit which sparked
of the National movement? Does that mean NMuslims will object to the
freedom movement as a whole ?? You are talking nonsense, buddy.
Friend, why did you delete all the remaing stuff that I wrote ? I asked,
on the same ground, WHY DON'T the MUslims oppose the National EMblem
of India and the 'Satyameva Jayate' in it ??? VM is not from any
religious
scripture, but 'Satyameva Jayate' is from Upanishads.
DO they have the courage to do this ??? If at all they do, won't
you consider that an anti-national act ???
Please answer this, if you want to continue the debate.
-Sankara Narayanan
>
> Uday Reddy
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
: India is one nation. It is indeed one people. It has indeed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: one culture. Many people prior to the current times have
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know whether India is one nation or not. It is definitely not one
people and not one culture. It has different cultures in it and the
conglomorate or the superset of all these cultures is Indian Culture.
As a Bengali, I have faced stereotypical innuendos from Non-Bengalis-most
of them Hindi speakers. (Before I am misunderstood, some of my closest
friends are Hindi speakers- I prefer to talk to them in Hindi and I have
nothing against the Hindi language or the Hindi speaking culture of North
India-I am merely asserting that the Bengali culture is different from
Hindi culture and other cultures that collectively make Indian culture).
This included
-our diction.
-our food habit. A particular fact which intrigued them was how can fish
head be a delicacy.
-a belief that every Bengali is a lazy bum and that when a Bengali
complains of injustice he is doing that just to create trouble and not
because there is genuine injustice.
-Bengalis lack something called "work ethic".
Let me also add that I have heard other sterotypes attributed to
different groups and none of them were complimentary. No we definitely
don't have the same culture.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
brao
In article <5i3fhm$1tp$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
N. Tiwari <nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu> wrote:
...
*Let those who have some problem, not sing it. But then, some
*feelings should not get in the way of other's feelings. The
*majority of India will have absolutely no problem in singing
*VM. So, it should be made the sole soul song of India. And
*believe me, if there were no "educationists" like you,
*Muslims too would not be having chest pains, over the song.
I think the above paragraph should be compulsory reading in some
future course titled "the psychology of India's Hindu-Muslim divide,
or why is it hard for pseudo-Hindus (sometimes known as Hindutva-ites)
to understand the essential anti-national character of their
ideology."
Nachiketa Tiwari, who presumably has thought the matter over, finds
nothing outrageous in adopting as a national anthem a song which 12% of
the population is forbidden by their consciences to sing. He thinks
nothing of conflating "national anthem" and "majority anthem," in all
seriousness mind you.
He is also evidently of the view that there is nothing wrong or
insulting about implying that Muslim Indians are merely tabulae rasae
waiting for evil pseudosecularists to write their religious script for
them. If I were a Muslim, I would be insulted by the suggestion that I
have to wait for some Hindu to tell me what is taboo in my
religion and what is not. In other words, Muslims by themselves cannot
make the choice to despise Vande Mataram (or not) or spit on the
national flag (or not); they have to be told what to do by some
bunch of Hindus, be it the "pseudo-secularist" bunch telling them to
go ahead and spit, or the "pseudo-Hindu" bunch telling them they had
better not.
Why not start a campaign to have the Confederate Stars and Bars
adopted as the U.S. national flag while you are at it? After all, if
it excludes blacks, they don't have to salute it, as long as the
majority whites accept it, it is fine.
My personal views.
Bapa Rao
Uday S. Reddy
Sankara Narayanan <san...@vnet.ibm.com> writes:
> Most part of Shivaramu's article quoted by me, contained facts
> and quotes from many newspapers, magazines and some books...
> It is just a compilation, nicely arranged to bring out the
> various phases thru' which the controversey went thru'.
> There is very less of views and opinions in that article.
> If you think that even the quotations are altered, you are
> free to refer to all the archives for their validity !
I am not contesting the quotes that Shivaramu gives. I don't have any
reason to suspect foul-play. But, I have plenty of reasons to suspect
bias. And, such bias gets exhibited in interpretation of the facts,
in selective presentation of evidence etc. For instance, Shivaramu's
extract claimed that Mohmd. Ali complained that *songs* were against
his religion. But, A Sircar pointed out that his complaint was about
*bowing* to Motherland (implicit in VM). There is a signficant
difference between the two.
> BTW< what makes you think there are ideological colours ??? The
> article presented the info about both the songs in an impartial
> manner.. IS it because, by any chance you are trying to look at
> with coloured glasses ?
It is my right to question everything I read, color or no color.
Are you questioning my right to question? If so, please say so and I
will stop reading your posts.
>
> I agree to you here.. In fact the secularism practised in India is
> a misnoker. Selcularism means (as per OXford English Dictionary) the
> disassociation of any aspects of religion from any part of politics
> or education..
>
> But INdia has so many religious holidays etc... So what is practised
> in the garb of secularism the age-old respect and tolerance for
> all relgions ie. sarva-dharma-sama-bhava foster over centuries by
> the Rishis and great men of Hindu religion..
I don't think there is any point in arguing what the word "secularism"
means. But, we understand correctly what the Indian idea of
secularism means. Words matter little; ideas do.
> Given that, I feel a national anthem SHOULD praise the nation, not
> just it's geography, but every aspects of it's vibrant life, it's
> very soul .. and that's why in the initial phases of Freedom
> struggle, the entire nation accepted VM as the national anthem ..
> ad please note that VM spread thru' the whole nation naturally
> with the spreading of the Swadeshi movement.. and was already
> in the hearts of millions as a symbol of nationalism.
I have nothing against VM. But, I believe the argument is about JGM,
not VM. It is true that JGM does not praise the land, at least not
directly, but I see little problem in that. One could, if one wishes,
interpret the Bharata-Bhagya-Vidhaata as being personified in the land
of India and regard it as praising the land. The song is certainly
open to such an interpretation, though it doesn't require it.
>
> Bharat-Bhagya-Bidhata means 'Ruler of India's Destiny'. If this title
> perfectly suited somebody in those days,it was none other
> than the BRitish King , right ?
>
> (This doen't mean I'm saying he wrote it in praise of the King, I still
> feel it was in praise of God)
I prefer not to translate it into English to understand its meaning;
the metaphors can get corrupted in the translation. Vidhata,
a derivative of Vidhi, is certainly a supernatural concept in Indian
thinking. It is not a Ruler. I see no reference to the King here.
> LInking Anandmath and VM itself is not appropriate.. Bankim authored
> VM as an independant song first and then incorporated it into his
> novel... It should be noted that nobody wanted ANandmath to be
> declared as a National Novel !So, VM should judged independently as
> a song in itself.
Since I don't know about Anandmath, I will defer this question to the
experts on the matter. But, I appreciate your quotation. It is
beautiful and moving.
> Congress and it's leardes buried all the good things and the
> spirit of the national movement after independance and that's
> why VM wa thrown out ..
I disagree with your interpretation. I haven't seen any Congress
leaders disrespect VM. In fact, your own quotes show the high regard
in which Nehru held it. He preferred JGM for the anthem for pragmatic
reasons.
> Now again, the constitution says that VM enjoys EQUAL STATUS as
> that of JGM .. SO, isn't it an anti-national act when somebody
> opposes VM ?? Please answer.
And, what is meant "opposing" VM?
> > Nonsense. From what I understand, the reason Muslims oppose VM is
> > that it appears to *deify* India. And, that, according to their
> > religous beliefs, is not permissible. This is what they mean when
> > they call it "idolatory."
> >
> > That is a serious objection as far as I am concerned. If Muslims find
> > the song against their religious beliefs, they should not be forced to
> > sing it.
>
> What is wrong in "deifying" India, if that was the spirit which sparked
> of the National movement? Does that mean NMuslims will object to the
> freedom movement as a whole ?? You are talking nonsense, buddy.
>
> Friend, why did you delete all the remaing stuff that I wrote ? I asked,
> on the same ground, WHY DON'T the MUslims oppose the National EMblem
> of India and the 'Satyameva Jayate' in it ??? VM is not from any
> religious
> scripture, but 'Satyameva Jayate' is from Upanishads.
>
> DO they have the courage to do this ??? If at all they do, won't
> you consider that an anti-national act ???
>
> Please answer this, if you want to continue the debate.
So, I suppose this is the crux of the matter. Why should Muslims have
any problem with Vande Mataram? I have explained it as far as I am
able to understand, but it doesn't seem that my explanation has made
any difference to your perceptions. Hindus are prone to deifying
everything in the world, our parents, our teachers, the elements,
animals, trees, anything else we please. I am a Hindu and I have no
problem with that. Some other religions don't do such things, and
Islam, in particular, prohibits deifying anything including its own
prophet. So, I can understand why they can't deify their motherland.
If you can't, well... I tried.
I have no intention of going into the other spurious issues that you
raise.
Cheers,
Uday Reddy
Srabani Banerjee
N. Tiwari wrote:
[...]
> : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> : > daily.
>
> : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
> : down people's throats. Why?
>
> What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> talked about is replacing one song by another.
> Schools already use JGM.
All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
your foot in your mouth, can you?
They could as well use
> VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
very irritating, to say the least.
Srabani
N. Tiwari
Srabani Banerjee (BANE...@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: asi...@atrmail2.attmail.com wrote:
: [...]
: > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
: > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
: > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
: > daily.
: In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
: down people's throats. Why?
What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
patriotism you are talking about. What is being
talked about is replacing one song by another.
Schools already use JGM. They could as well use
VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
VB
Gopala Ganesh <gga...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Hi!
Exactly!Parodies of well known hymns, anthems and other sacred
things existed throughout the history. I can still recall (in parts)
the parodies of some very serious slokas; And some scout songs I
learnt in India were rather blasphemous. May be someone should
compile an anthology of such things. (and X-post to rec.humor :)
In 'Married with Children' sitcom, the lead character (Al)
sings parodies of Stars&Stripes('oh sae') and Amazing Grace ('amazing
beaf'). In fact, parodies exist for most of the popular church
songs (there was one on 'Onward Xian Soldiers', very funny too);
Final advice: loosen up, go for a swim, eat ice cream, bask in
the sun, eat chinese (food:), shoot hoops, walk barefeet, take it
easy, live the life, let the caboose hang loose :-)
ind...@iastate.edu
In article <5i3suv$40d$1...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya <bha...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>India-I am merely asserting that the Bengali culture is different from
>Hindi culture and other cultures that collectively make Indian culture).
What is "Hindi" culture? Please explain.
>-a belief that every Bengali is a lazy bum and that when a Bengali
>complains of injustice he is doing that just to create trouble and not
>because there is genuine injustice.
Actually, most of us must have got this reading your posts on the net.
But rest assured we don't believe this to be true of ALL bengalees or of
ALL members of any community for that matter.
>-Bengalis lack something called "work ethic".
Not just because they are bengalees, but because the communist culture
that prevailed there for a long time. But don't worry, lower work ethics
is an India-wide phenomenon these days. There is some truth to the
saying after all "what Bengal thinks of today, rest of India thinks 10
years later". :)
>
>Let me also add that I have heard other sterotypes attributed to
>different groups and none of them were complimentary. No we definitely
>don't have the same culture.
I know what you mean. Like Hindi speaking people being responsible for
all ills of bengal. Banias, marwaris, dhotiwalas and Tikkis, hindi
speaking people being communalists, basically being evil just because
they speak hindi or wear dhoti or sport what you call Tikki. Very
stereotypical indeed. Not very complimentary either. And I thought I
will not be able to agree with you on anything, ever.
Let us enlist the similarities and dissimilarities of bengali and
"hindi" culture. But please define what "hindi" culture is, because if
you are willing to pay too much attention to small dissimilarities, even
two families will have differant cultures. and then all hindi speaking
states will not have the same culture, just like all indian states do
not ahve the same culture as per claim.
>--
>Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Sincerely,
Dhotiwala, evil brahmin, bania, marwari, Tikki, saffron communalist bigot.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
ind...@iastate.edu wrote:
: What is "Hindi" culture? Please explain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hindi culture is the culture of the people who consider their mother
tongue to be Hindi.
: >-a belief that every Bengali is a lazy bum and that when a Bengali
: >complains of injustice he is doing that just to create trouble and not
: >because there is genuine injustice.
: Actually, most of us must have got this reading your posts on the net.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
::))
: But rest assured we don't believe this to be true of ALL bengalees or of
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: ALL members of any community for that matter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have already expressed your views about muslims in a number of other
posts. Given that you have tarred at least one community with sweeping
generalisation, I am afraid that your statement above is not very credible.
: >-Bengalis lack something called "work ethic".
: Not just because they are bengalees, but because the communist culture
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: that prevailed there for a long time. But don't worry, lower work ethics
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: is an India-wide phenomenon these days. There is some truth to the
: saying after all "what Bengal thinks of today, rest of India thinks 10
: years later". :)
Do me a favour. Conduct the following experiment.
Step 1.: Go to the library. Pick up couple of books on organisational
behaviour.
Step 2: Look at the index of these books and look up motivation. Also
look up Maslow's theory of motivation and Herzberg's theory of motivation.
Step 3: Think hard and find a definition of work ethic that is DIFFERENT
in concept from the concept of motivation.
Do let us know the definition of the term "work ethic" that you may have
found at the end of step 3.
: I know what you mean. Like Hindi speaking people being responsible for
: all ills of bengal. Banias, marwaris, dhotiwalas and Tikkis, hindi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: speaking people being communalists, basically being evil just because
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: they speak hindi or wear dhoti or sport what you call Tikki. Very
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: stereotypical indeed. Not very complimentary either. And I thought I
: will not be able to agree with you on anything, ever.
I have never used the stereotypes you have mentioned in my posts. It is
your despearte attempt to put words in my mouth. However, it is also true
that these stereotype images are often conjured up, not by me though.
This also goes to prove my point that we have different culture.
: Let us enlist the similarities and dissimilarities of bengali and
: "hindi" culture. But please define what "hindi" culture is, because if
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only Hindi speaking people can define what their culture is. Just like I
said in another post-only Kashmiris can define what Kashmiriyat is.
: you are willing to pay too much attention to small dissimilarities, even
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: two families will have differant cultures. and then all hindi speaking
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your statement is very true. No two human beings are alike and so we are
all different. When we are talking about aggregative groupings like
Bengalis, Tamils, Hindi Speakers etc., we are taliking about broad
threads of commonality which runs through a particular group and
distinguishes it from another particular group. I am sure
your statement can be used to show that there are only small differences
between Swahili culture and Kannada culture ::)). After all you have made
an irrefutable statement. If I point out differences you can always say
that those differences are small and does not count.
: Sincerely,
: Dhotiwala, evil brahmin, bania, marwari, Tikki, saffron communalist bigot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You wrote it, I did not:)). BTW how can you be a brahmin and a bania at
the same time.
--
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
Soumitri Mukherjee
Srabani Banerjee wrote:
>
> N. Tiwari wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> > : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> > : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> > : > daily.
> >
> > : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
> > : down people's throats. Why?
> >
> > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> > talked about is replacing one song by another.
> > Schools already use JGM.
>
> all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
> your foot in your mouth, can you?
>
> > VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
>
> your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
> very irritating, to say the least.
>
> Srabani
Excuse me for butting in, but by the word 'schools' perhaps Mr. Tiwari
meant 'many schools', just not all schools. Should one vent so much
anger just because of such a semantic misunderstanding? Or was it
because Mr. Tiwari's response to your 'simple polite' inquiry started
with " What nonsense"? :)
Anyhow I also believe that no brand of patriotism should be forced down
people's throats to make them more patriotic than whatever patriotic
feelings come naturally to them with their own
knowledge-and-understandings.
---soumitri
N. Tiwari
: [...]
: > : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
: > : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
: > : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
: > : > daily.
: >
: > : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
: > : down people's throats. Why?
: >
: > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
: > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
: > talked about is replacing one song by another.
: > Schools already use JGM.
: All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
: all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
: your foot in your mouth, can you?
Did I say that. I think however, most of the schools
do that. Guess whose foot and whose mouth are we talking
about.
: They could as well use
: > VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
: I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
: your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
: very irritating, to say the least.
So, it is MY brand of idiocy that irritates you. Note your
own words. MY brand of irritates Sushri Srabani Banerjee.
There is one simple solution. Please put my name, in your
kill file. That way, you will remain unexposed to MY brand
of idiocy. And of course, you could revel in alternate brands
of idiocy. BTW, your this singular post reminds me of another
of those enlighthened posters on sci and scb. And incidentally
his initials are also SB. He also uses terms like "did not expecy
you to understand", or "my brand of idiocy".
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
: Let me also add that I have heard other sterotypes attributed to
: different groups and none of them were complimentary. No we definitely
: don't have the same culture.
Incidentally, this too is one more unifying aspect of the single
culture that India has. I have seen it at all places, and in all
sorts of places. And yes, this too is indeed a part of culture.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
N. Tiwari
brao (br...@pollux.usc.edu) wrote:
: In article <5i3fhm$1tp$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
: N. Tiwari <nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu> wrote:
: ...
: *Let those who have some problem, not sing it. But then, some
: *feelings should not get in the way of other's feelings. The
: *majority of India will have absolutely no problem in singing
: *VM. So, it should be made the sole soul song of India. And
: *believe me, if there were no "educationists" like you,
: *Muslims too would not be having chest pains, over the song.
: I think the above paragraph should be compulsory reading in some
: future course titled "the psychology of India's Hindu-Muslim divide,
: or why is it hard for pseudo-Hindus (sometimes known as Hindutva-ites)
: to understand the essential anti-national character of their
: ideology."
: Nachiketa Tiwari, who presumably has thought the matter over, finds
: nothing outrageous in adopting as a national anthem a song which 12% of
: the population is forbidden by their consciences to sing. He thinks
: nothing of conflating "national anthem" and "majority anthem," in all
: seriousness mind you.
: He is also evidently of the view that there is nothing wrong or
: insulting about implying that Muslim Indians are merely tabulae rasae
: waiting for evil pseudosecularists to write their religious script for
: them. If I were a Muslim, I would be insulted by the suggestion that I
: have to wait for some Hindu to tell me what is taboo in my
: religion and what is not. In other words, Muslims by themselves cannot
: make the choice to despise Vande Mataram (or not) or spit on the
: national flag (or not); they have to be told what to do by some
: bunch of Hindus, be it the "pseudo-secularist" bunch telling them to
: go ahead and spit, or the "pseudo-Hindu" bunch telling them they had
: better not.
Shri Rao:
1. It is not my suggestion, that choices have to be made
by group X, for group Y. It is also not my contention, that
group Y is unable to decide things on its own.
2. However, I do feel, that group Y (in this case Muslims)
have been told on more than one occasions, as to what is
in their communal interest, and what is not. The onus
of "educating" them has on more than one occasions, been
assumed by our p-secular leadership. Still further, I also
hold the opinion our p-secular leadership has done this
since they have always held the opinion, that they were
in the know of what was good for whom, and to what an
extent. Facets of "I know what is good for you" attitude
are visible in diverse and multiple situations. Be it the
way of our governance (notice the refusal of our leadership
to facilitate the installation of a popular govt. in UP
in recent times), to education (notice the opinions that
Arabic is somehow if not more, then almost as relevant as
Samskrit), to politics and political symbolism.
3. The notion that somehow everyone has to agree on everything
should be the sole benchmark in making important decisions
is neither desirable nor realistic. For instance, consider
the very idea of nation itself. From the view point of a
Jehovah's Witness, or a Muslim, the very idea of nation,
or flag, or national song is useless. These groups, in
theory are supposed to bow to no one, but the One. Given this
scenario, and the fact that we do have Jehovah's witness, as
well as Muslims, how do you bridge the seemingly wide
ideological rift.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Supratik Das
On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Srabani Banerjee wrote:
> N. Tiwari wrote:
> > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> > talked about is replacing one song by another.
> > Schools already use JGM.
> All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
> all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
> your foot in your mouth, can you?
That is precisely the point. Not all schools make students sing the
national anthem e.g. in our school we sung songs from the Book of Psalms
but never the national anthem. We should make our children sing the
national anthem as they do in most countries. Otherwise we will have the
repeated experiences of Indians sitting around when their national anthem
is being played. In fact there are millions of Indians who don't know that
their national anthem is being played and that they should pay respect to
it. This is why most Indians do not develop national feelings because it
is not nurtured. We are not talking of force here as in Communist
countries who follow the same garbage ideology as Nalinaksha. Neither am I
talking of useless pseudo-intellectuals like Nalinaksha but of the common
Indian. Nalinaksha and friends may in the meantime sing praises of Stalin.
> I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
> your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
> very irritating, to say the least.
I find this very irritating as well. Because what you think as normal we
find as idiotic and vice-versa. I think Nachiketa is right at least on
this occassion. I am aware that Bengalies have existed on extreme poles.
We have produced the best patriots and the worst traitors. Of course the
leftists belong to the last category. Hence, your problem with nationalism
is understandable. BTW, Nalinaksha has openly said he believes in Bengali
nationalism, in which case I was wondering whether they would make people
sing national anthems in their fantasy state of Bengal and what would
happen to millions of Gurkhas, Biharis, Doars people, Santhals who don't
want to sing 'their' song?
BTW what exactly is wrong with singing the national anthem. After all you
guys sing 'Shilpi Songrami Paul Robson.........' in almost every party
meeting.
> Srabani
Supratik
Srabani Banerjee
Soumitri Mukherjee wrote:
[...]
> > > : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> > > : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> > > : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> > > : > daily.
> > >
> > > : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
> > > : down people's throats. Why?
> > >
> > > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> > > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> > > talked about is replacing one song by another.
> > > Schools already use JGM.
> >
> > All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
> > all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
> > your foot in your mouth, can you?
> >
> > They could as well use
> > > VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
> >
> > I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
> > your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
> > very irritating, to say the least.
> >
> > Srabani
>
> Excuse me for butting in, but by the word 'schools' perhaps Mr. Tiwari
> meant 'many schools', just not all schools.
Oh yeah? Go back and read what asircar wrote - he was quite clearly
talking about all schools - if Mr.Tiwari did not mean all schools, his
followup makes even less sense.
Srabani
Srabani Banerjee
Supratik Das wrote:
> > All schools? Are you saying that it is compulsory for all students in
> > all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
> > your foot in your mouth, can you?
>
> That is precisely the point. Not all schools make students sing the
> national anthem e.g. in our school we sung songs from the Book of Psalms
> but never the national anthem.
So? You had a choice. You could have joined a school where they sang the
anthem everyday.
We should make our children sing the
> national anthem as they do in most countries. Otherwise we will have the
> repeated experiences of Indians sitting around when their national anthem
> is being played. In fact there are millions of Indians who don't know that
> their national anthem is being played and that they should pay respect to
> it. This is why most Indians do not develop national feelings because it
> is not nurtured. We are not talking of force here as in Communist
> countries
You are talking about exactly the same kind of force.
[lots of irrelevant garbage deleted]
>
> BTW what exactly is wrong with singing the national anthem.
Where on earth did I say that there is something wrong with singing it?
What next? Don't blame me for your reading handicap.
After all you
> guys sing 'Shilpi Songrami Paul Robson.........' in almost every party
> meeting.
`you guys sing...'? not only are you reading things that are not there,
now you've started hearing things as well, huh?
Srabani
V.S.Senthilkumar
ind...@iastate.edu wrote:
: Let us enlist the similarities and dissimilarities of bengali and
: "hindi" culture. But please define what "hindi" culture is, because if
: you are willing to pay too much attention to small dissimilarities, even
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: two families will have differant cultures. and then all hindi speaking
: states will not have the same culture, just like all indian states do
: not ahve the same culture as per claim.
If you think a hindian and a tamilian are of same culture,
then it is right to say that "hindian" and "italian" are of
same culture.
If language is a small dissimilarity, then the whole world
has just one culture.
-vs senthilkumar
patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Soumitri Mukherjee
Srabani Banerjee wrote:
>
> Soumitri Mukherjee wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > > : > The Saffron Brigade should , instead of criticizing "Jana Gana Mana",
> > > > : > push for every school in India, public or private,to make it compulsory
> > > > : > for all students to sing "Vande Mataram" before commencement of classes
> > > > : > daily.
> > > >
> > > > : In other words, your particular brand of patriotism should be forced
> > > > : down people's throats. Why?
> > > >
> > > > What nonsense. What is this "particular" brand of
> > > > patriotism you are talking about. What is being
> > > > talked about is replacing one song by another.
> > > > Schools already use JGM.
> > >
> > > all schools in India to sing JGM? Poor Nachiketa! you can't help puting
> > > your foot in your mouth, can you?
> > >
> > > > VM. How does "brand" figure in the picutre.
> > >
> > > I didn't expect you to understand that. Pardon me if I do not reply to
> > > your posts in the future. I find your *particular* *brand* of idiocy
> > > very irritating, to say the least.
> > >
> > > Srabani
> >
> > Excuse me for butting in, but by the word 'schools' perhaps Mr. Tiwari
> > meant 'many schools', just not all schools.
>
> Oh yeah? Go back and read what asircar wrote - he was quite clearly
> talking about all schools - if Mr.Tiwari did not mean all schools, his
> followup makes even less sense.
>
> Srabani
ok, I'm sorry for not going back that far enough to understand what
Mr.Tiwari meant by 'Schools already use JGM' would apply for 'all
schools', and also I did assume that with a minimum level of
intelligence, Mr. Tiwari could not have had meant such a sweeping remark
applicable for all schools in India. Surprisingly, in today's posting
(dated and timed as April 5, 1997, 17:15:18 GMT) Mr. Tiwari seemed to
have also mentioned that he did not mean 'all schools'. Anyhow my
position rests for the time being and you all can happily contine
further on this thread.
Also verry funny but I must say that your response of "Oh yeah?"
instantly brought me a notion of 'puro komor bNedhe nemepoDaar moton',
:), anyhow this is an irrelevant thought which I hope would be ignored
in your serious discussion of JGM vs. 'whatever'.
---soumitri
Anonymous IU Student
All right All right All right ! :-)
One final word...
You see, irreverence is a useful thing to have if there
is an over-indulgance of reverence in the first place.
While showing respect to the national anthem is hardly a necessary
and sufficient condition for ah, patriotism, it is our
duty and responsibilty to stand at attention when it is
being played. It is a small gesture not beyond the capabilities
of any two-legged human being.
And what does one see on any occasion when the anthem is
played ? People snigger, whisper, look around, shuffle
their feet impatiently. Some people are reminded of parodies
and cannot resist giggling. Most people -i think- remember the
parodies better than the anthem itself. Most of us are guilty
of such shameful behaviour.
I express my disapproval and that's all I can do.
The tragedy -alas- is that the significance of the anthem is
lost on many people. I wont shoot such people, but only because
I dont own a gun. :)
And now, as you so kindly suggest, I shall let the caboose
hang loose (It sounds like a cool thing to do, although I dont
know what it means)
Cheers,
Samir
Balaji Gadhiraju
ind...@iastate.edu wrote:
> Let us enlist the similarities and dissimilarities of bengali and
> "hindi" culture. But please define what "hindi" culture is, because if
> you are willing to pay too much attention to small dissimilarities, even
> two families will have differant cultures. and then all hindi speaking
> states will not have the same culture, just like all indian states do
> not ahve the same culture as per claim.
>
I dont understand why people find it difficult to accept and
agree that india consists of several subcultures, especially
BJP and RSS people. I dont think there is any harm in accepting
this fact and this is not going to result in each of this culture
separating from india and forming their own country. Actully
forcing the people to believe that entire india is one culture
may result in above.
I can not list the dissimilarities between Hindi and Bengali people.
But let me try to do the same for Telugu and Non Telugu People.
1. We speak different language.
2. Our food habits are different.
3. Traditional dresses are different.
3. Way of life in villages is different from any village in
north India.
4. Our names are different. Almost 100% by just looking at the
name i can say whether he is Telugu.
5. Marriage ceremonies are different.
6. Our music is different atleast from North India.
examples: In marriages we use "Nadaswaram" and NOT "Shehnai".
Movie songs.
Folk songs(Janapada gitalu)
Classical Music
These are some of the things which i can think of just now.
And i believe that thse and many other things make Telugu people
different culture from others.
--
balaji.
---------------------------------------
Email: bal...@2kweb.net
http://www.2kweb.net/balaji
---------------------------------------
N. Tiwari
V.S.Senthilkumar (v...@best.com) wrote:
: ind...@iastate.edu wrote:
: : Let us enlist the similarities and dissimilarities of bengali and
: : "hindi" culture. But please define what "hindi" culture is, because if
: : you are willing to pay too much attention to small dissimilarities, even
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : two families will have differant cultures. and then all hindi speaking
: : states will not have the same culture, just like all indian states do
: : not ahve the same culture as per claim.
: If you think a hindian and a tamilian are of same culture,
: then it is right to say that "hindian" and "italian" are of
: same culture.
: If language is a small dissimilarity, then the whole world
: has just one culture.
Actually, you are not too much off the mark. The notion
of vasudhaiva kutumbakam is precisely that. That is the
ultimate goal. That each and every person could empathize
and share the joys and sadness of each and every other
person in the world. And why even humans. This empathy
should in an ideal sense extend to all that is jada
as well as chetan. Modern environmental movements, in
some sense, also have a part of this idea of "vasudhaiva
kutumbakam" at their respective cores. With the almost
exponential growth of science, this idea of havin a global
family, is not only a desirable goal from an other-worldly
perspective, but also a definite neccesity.
However, to reach that ultimate goal, we as Indians have
to learn to share our sorrows and joys within ourselves.
That begins with me as an individual, to my family, to
my locality and so on. So, a Hindian reaching out to a
Italian is a possibility. But it comes later. Prior to
that lies the idea of reaching out to a Tamilian, and then
a Sri Lankan.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Kathiravan
In article <334803C0...@2kweb.net>, Balaji Gadhiraju <bal...@2kweb.net> writes:
|> ind...@iastate.edu wrote:
|>
|> > Let us enlist the similarities and dissimilarities of bengali and
|> > "hindi" culture. But please define what "hindi" culture is, because if
|> > you are willing to pay too much attention to small dissimilarities, even
|> > two families will have differant cultures. and then all hindi speaking
|> > states will not have the same culture, just like all indian states do
|> > not ahve the same culture as per claim.
|> >
|>
|>
|> I dont understand why people find it difficult to accept and
|> agree that india consists of several subcultures, especially
|> BJP and RSS people. I dont think there is any harm in accepting
|> this fact and this is not going to result in each of this culture
|> separating from india and forming their own country. Actully
|> forcing the people to believe that entire india is one culture
|> may result in above.
If you don't understand why the Hindutvadis proclaim
one people, one country please read below:
Politics in India is based mainly on class/caste lines. The
upper-caste/class during British times gained an advantage over
the working and toiling masses and captured bureacracy and other
pillars of democracy. They proclaimed this one Nation theory as
the ultimate patriotic thing. But after 50 years they have slowly
lost grip on their Nation.
Nationalism would have won if the leaders of the Nationalist
parties were not downright thieves and soundrels and shared power
with the lower-castes. These leaders
abused democracy and freedom and many a time insulted regional
low caste leadership. The upper-caste leadership never had the
touch of MK Gandhi who was the man of the masses. But they used
the media and rhetorics combined with high-handed tactics to
suppress any dissension. They insulted stalwarts like Jaya prakash
Narayanan and Lohia. But the upper-caste leaders are removed from the
masses.
Democracy has to have its real meaning and masses will have
to be deciding their leaders. This is the natural outcome and
the upper-caste leadership of National parties are scared to
face this reality. Their counter revolution is this one Hindu
Nation theory. But Dalit intelletuals are too aware of
these tactics. Every move of these scoundrels is recorded and
people are alerted.
Their Ganesh processesion is engineered to spill Sudra and
Muslim blood. None of the upper-caste media is for
banning such blood spilling experiments. Ayodya was their last
ditch effort to unite Sudras under Hindu flag against Muslims.
VHP now speaks about Mathura and Kasi. But BJP scared of the
response people gave to its tactics is keeping quiet.
No upper-caste leader worth his salt has condemned this religious
fanatism or the goonery of its political leadership. That should not surprise
anybody considering the history of the sub-continent.
|> I can not list the dissimilarities between Hindi and Bengali people.
|> But let me try to do the same for Telugu and Non Telugu People.
|>
|> 1. We speak different language.
|> 2. Our food habits are different.
|> 3. Traditional dresses are different.
|> 3. Way of life in villages is different from any village in
|> north India.
|> 4. Our names are different. Almost 100% by just looking at the
|> name i can say whether he is Telugu.
|> 5. Marriage ceremonies are different.
|> 6. Our music is different atleast from North India.
|>
|> examples: In marriages we use "Nadaswaram" and NOT "Shehnai".
|> Movie songs.
|> Folk songs(Janapada gitalu)
|> Classical Music
Well said.
M.Ranganathan
In article <5ib5vm$8...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
>
>
> If you don't understand why the Hindutvadis proclaim
>one people, one country please read below:
>
> Politics in India is based mainly on class/caste lines. The
>upper-caste/class during British times gained an advantage over
>the working and toiling masses and captured bureacracy and other
Working, toiling masses eh? Kool! Let them eat cake! Whats the matter? They
cant eat cake. Oh well. Let them eat pudding.
>pillars of democracy. They proclaimed this one Nation theory as
>the ultimate patriotic thing. But after 50 years they have slowly
>lost grip on their Nation.
Dear Mr. Kathirist,
You are slowly loosing your grip on reality. Corruption and thuggery
in Indian politics cuts across caste lines. If you cant admit to that
you are amazingly prejudiced or just intellectually dishonest.
>
> Nationalism would have won if the leaders of the Nationalist
>parties were not downright thieves and soundrels and shared power
>with the lower-castes. These leaders
Hmmm... last time I checked, Karunanidhi was a barber caste or some
such thing. As far as scoundrels go, Karuna is hard to beat.
>abused democracy and freedom and many a time insulted regional
>low caste leadership. The upper-caste leadership never had the
>touch of MK Gandhi who was the man of the masses. But they used
>the media and rhetorics combined with high-handed tactics to
>suppress any dissension. They insulted stalwarts like Jaya prakash
Errr... I dont think JP Narayanan was a "lower caste man".
>Narayanan and Lohia. But the upper-caste leaders are removed from the
>masses.
>
> Democracy has to have its real meaning and masses will have
>to be deciding their leaders. This is the natural outcome and
Last I checked it was one man one vote. Masses do decide their leaders
and unless you run for elections, you can hardly complain about *their*
choices. If Indians want to screw themselves by electing thugs, thats
their choice. Have you even bothered to vote in elections of late?
Whats the matter? Too damn hard to get off your duff and shrug off the
relative comfort of your Canadian abode eh?
>
> Their Ganesh processesion is engineered to spill Sudra and
>Muslim blood.
"Their" Ganesh festival is engineered to celebrate their festival.
Violence happens because of other reasons. Nobody plans a festival with
the express intent of splilling blood.
Well, perhaps mariammaminists do. Gotta give the godess meat eh?
Ranga.
Kathiravan
In article <5ibmrf$c...@baekdoo.cs.umd.edu>, ra...@cs.umd.edu (M.Ranganathan) writes:
|> In article <5ib5vm$8...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
|> >
|> >
|> > If you don't understand why the Hindutvadis proclaim
|> >one people, one country please read below:
|> >
|> > Politics in India is based mainly on class/caste lines. The
|> >upper-caste/class during British times gained an advantage over
|> >the working and toiling masses and captured bureacracy and other
|>
|>
|>
|> Working, toiling masses eh? Kool! Let them eat cake! Whats the matter? They
|> cant eat cake. Oh well. Let them eat pudding.
|>
|>
They don't need you to shower your grace. They are all
set to take the cream. Not simply on a platter but after some
more struggle that is in store. Wait and watch the fun. Even Congress party
is getting Mandalised.
|>
|>
|> >pillars of democracy. They proclaimed this one Nation theory as
|> >the ultimate patriotic thing. But after 50 years they have slowly
|> >lost grip on their Nation.
|>
|>
|> Dear Mr. Kathirist,
|>
|>
|> You are slowly loosing your grip on reality. Corruption and thuggery
|> in Indian politics cuts across caste lines. If you cant admit to that
|> you are amazingly prejudiced or just intellectually dishonest.
|>
I am very much at grips with reality. Unscrupulous fellows exist
in every section of human population. But in India the
unscrupulous among the upper-castes/class go unpunished.
Compare tandoor Sharma, HKL Bhagath with Billa and
Ranga or assasins of MrsGandhi. Law should apply equally
on every body Ranga.
Just how you and some fellows defended Atal Behari
Bajpayee who was responsible for killing of 1000's of
Muslims showed how uncouth and unscrupulous clannish
people can get. For you as long as your common minimum
agenda works you will defend it. You even questioned
how BJP could be banned. I explained how in a secular
democracy there is no room for BJP,VHP,RSS, Muslim League.
For Hindutvadis crime has crossed the limit and now
it is legitimate and politically acceptable to commit it in
the name of Ram.
We don't want Manu Smirthi as law of the land. Punish
all the criminals immaterial of their caste. Get it Mr.
Ranga. Maybe you need a stronger reality dose.
|>
|> >
|> > Nationalism would have won if the leaders of the Nationalist
|> >parties were not downright thieves and soundrels and shared power
|> >with the lower-castes. These leaders
|>
|>
|> Hmmm... last time I checked, Karunanidhi was a barber caste or some
|> such thing. As far as scoundrels go, Karuna is hard to beat.
|>
Sure. Check out. He belongs to Isai vellaalar community.
He is far more honest and sincere and has been victimised
becasue of his caste twice. No wonder Emergencies, Sarkaria Commisions
came up with nothing.
|>
|> >abused democracy and freedom and many a time insulted regional
|> >low caste leadership. The upper-caste leadership never had the
|> >touch of MK Gandhi who was the man of the masses. But they used
|> >the media and rhetorics combined with high-handed tactics to
|> >suppress any dissension. They insulted stalwarts like Jaya prakash
|>
|>
|>
|> Errr... I dont think JP Narayanan was a "lower caste man".
|>
|>
Sure. Read about JP. and how he was insulted by Indira
Gandhi while the Congress AmAm sAmIs kept quiet. Now what is
happening to Congress. Never be arrogant when at top Ranga.
You lose it all. It applies to everybody.
|>
|> >Narayanan and Lohia. But the upper-caste leaders are removed from the
|> >masses.
|> >
|> > Democracy has to have its real meaning and masses will have
|> >to be deciding their leaders. This is the natural outcome and
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|> Last I checked it was one man one vote. Masses do decide their leaders
|> and unless you run for elections, you can hardly complain about *their*
|> choices. If Indians want to screw themselves by electing thugs, thats
|> their choice. Have you even bothered to vote in elections of late?
|> Whats the matter? Too damn hard to get off your duff and shrug off the
|> relative comfort of your Canadian abode eh?
|>
Indian masses are intelligent enough. That is why they
got together and even Congress is getting Mandalised. Indians
are not screwing themselves. It is educated and still feudal
people like you who want the feudal laws and afraid of
democracy.
My vote: I still retain my citizenship and ration card.
I am an Indian and is that your problem. As you mentioned
before in this forum you wrote off India just for the narrowest
of reasons. I did not and never will.
|>
|>
|>
|>
|> >
|> > Their Ganesh processesion is engineered to spill Sudra and
|> >Muslim blood.
|>
|>
|> "Their" Ganesh festival is engineered to celebrate their festival.
|> Violence happens because of other reasons. Nobody plans a festival with
|> the express intent of splilling blood.
Sure! Why go through certain areas in town and set
up some thugs to throw stones at the crowd and engineer
the communal clash.
Ganesh processions are engineered to start violence.
This is a tactic devised by marathi brahmins and spreading
like wild fire, thanks to pest called Hindu Munnani and other
fronts in Tamil Nadu. These outfits grew from nowhere in
Tamil Nadu during MGR and JJ regime.
|> Well, perhaps mariammaminists do. Gotta give the godess meat eh?
|>
May Marriamman bless you for your goat. I only
feed her with rooster. My goats go to kALiamman.
|> Ranga.
|>
sur...@usa.net
In article <5i8udi$lgv$4...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari) wrote:
> Actually, you are not too much off the mark. The notion
> of vasudhaiva kutumbakam is precisely that. That is the
> ultimate goal. That each and every person could empathize
> and share the joys and sadness of each and every other
> person in the world. And why even humans. This empathy
> should in an ideal sense extend to all that is jada
> as well as chetan. Modern environmental movements, in
> some sense, also have a part of this idea of "vasudhaiva
> kutumbakam" at their respective cores. With the almost
> exponential growth of science, this idea of havin a global
> family, is not only a desirable goal from an other-worldly
> perspective, but also a definite neccesity.
???????
> However, to reach that ultimate goal, we as Indians have
> to learn to share our sorrows and joys within ourselves.
> That begins with me as an individual, to my family, to
> my locality and so on. So, a Hindian reaching out to a
> Italian is a possibility. But it comes later.
Do we need to make the BJP the ruler of Italy before this happens?
Prior to
> that lies the idea of reaching out to a Tamilian, and then
> a Sri Lankan.
Ah, so we must make the BJP the rulers of the Tamils. What a
pity. I thought unity had a smaller price.
Ganga.
>
> --
> Nachiketa Tiwari
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
brao
In article <5i63bo$6ji$4...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
N. Tiwari <nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu> wrote:
...
>Shri Rao:
>
>1. It is not my suggestion, that choices have to be made
> by group X, for group Y. It is also not my contention, that
> group Y is unable to decide things on its own.
>
>2. However, I do feel, that group Y (in this case Muslims)
> have been told on more than one occasions, as to what is
> in their communal interest, and what is not. The onus
> of "educating" them has on more than one occasions, been
> assumed by our p-secular leadership. Still further, I also
My point of view is that Muslims (or Hindus or poor people or whoever)
are not mindless children to be "educated" into one line of thinking
or another; I mean, different groups such as left-wingers and Hindutva
types will try their best to influence the thinking of other people,
but ultimately people will make some kind of a rational decision
oriented towards their best interests, based on the information they
have. In my opinion, the tone and content of your remarks vis-a-vis
Muslims suggests that (from my point of view) you believe Muslims as a
group are an exception to this free participation in the marketplace
of ideas. I regard such an outlook as an insulting denial of the
maturity and dignity that should be expected, prima facie, of every
human being and people. In other words, the burden is on you to
demonstrate that Muslims as a whole are idiots who dance to the tune
of some mythic "p-seculars," as opposed to having sound,
understandable reasons (from their point of view) for the
decisions they make (as a group.) If you didn't mean to imply that
Muslims are idiots, why then, it should be clear that the views of
"p-seculars"(what this label means, other than a catchall pejorative
for everyone who doesn't attend shaka, I am unable to fathom ) are
inherently just as valuable as the views of "p-Hindus" (aka
Hindutva-ites) in their role as inputs to the Muslim
decision-making process. Basically there is no transcendent reason why
the rest of us should care that "p-seculars" (sic) and their views
irritate you and you perhaps would rather not have those views aired.
Barring convincing proof to the contrary, people should be deemed
capable of judging everyone's utterances on their own merits, with
respect to their individual situation. Anything else is an insult to
human dignity.
> hold the opinion our p-secular leadership has done this
> since they have always held the opinion, that they were
> in the know of what was good for whom, and to what an
> extent. Facets of "I know what is good for you" attitude
It is quite ok for someone to believe that they know what is good for
whom. Virtually every one of your posts indicates such certainity on
your part, as do most of mine on political subjects. This is what it
means to have opinions and convictions about things. I suspect what
you really mean is, "how dare that other idiot think he knows what is
good; everyone should know that it is _I_ who knows what is good for
all." :-)
What is not ok is to presume that someone will blindly buy someone
else's notion of what is good for them, simply because they are Muslim
or Brahmin or bourgeois or whatever. Maybe they do, but until this is
clearly demonstrated they should have the benefit of the doubt.
> are visible in diverse and multiple situations. Be it the
> way of our governance (notice the refusal of our leadership
> to facilitate the installation of a popular govt. in UP
> in recent times), to education (notice the opinions that
> Arabic is somehow if not more, then almost as relevant as
> Samskrit), to politics and political symbolism.
The UP government issue is simple partisan politics played out in the
aftermath of a hung legislature. If the BJP had gotten a clear
majority, no one could have prevented them from forming the
government. People whose favorite "team" didn't get to be king are
always going to whine that their opponents were bourgeois or
pseudo-seculars or some other cheap and meaningless label. It is not
proof of anything in an objective sense, and it is not
clear why normal folks, without partisan agenda should give a damn
about such things.
Same thing about the Arabic vs. Sanskrit issue. I know more Sanskrit
than Arabic, and that knowledge helps me in ways that are specific to
my situation, but that doesn't mean that there aren't allowed to be
other Indians for whom it is the other way around. I really don't see
why anyone should lose sleep over this, unless the problem is
with acknowledging the fact that India is a diverse place, and the
culture of Arabia and Persia and England (among others) have all
contributed to the mix. In a free country, people are allowed to give
importance to any cultural direction they choose.
>
>3. The notion that somehow everyone has to agree on everything
> should be the sole benchmark in making important decisions
> is neither desirable nor realistic. For instance, consider
> the very idea of nation itself. From the view point of a
> Jehovah's Witness, or a Muslim, the very idea of nation,
> or flag, or national song is useless. These groups, in
> theory are supposed to bow to no one, but the One. Given this
> scenario, and the fact that we do have Jehovah's witness, as
> well as Muslims, how do you bridge the seemingly wide
> ideological rift.
I didn't say that everyone has to agree on everything, so please don't
imply that I did. The essence of "vivekam" or discrimination is in
knowing what principle to apply when, and not to treat every problem
like a nail just because one has somehow got hold of a hammer. In my
experience, I have found that, in tracts emanating from the "Hindu
Right," this sense of discrimination appears to be sorely lacking.
Let me spell this out with respect to the national anthem issue.
Symbolic matters like the national anthem exist solely for the purpose
of bringing the nation together. If, due to a failure of creativity,
or maybe due to the fact that there is no actual togethernes in the
nation to be inspired by any song, we cannot come up with something
suitable, then at the least, the choice should not be such as to
knowingly divide the nation. This is why Vande Mataram, despite its
other merits, is a bad choice for a national anthem. Having a national
anthem is not a requirement for having a free country. In my view (no
offense intended) it is incomprehensibly stupid to insist on a
particular national anthem knowing in advance that it would alienate
12% of the population virtually en masse. Unless of course, one wants
to announce to that 12% that they have to accept this against their
will, simply because they are now a weakened minority. If the latter
is the case, then no one should be surprised if the 12% decide to rise
up in revolt. Even if they don't revolt overtly, if there enough
tensions and resentments to impede national progress, I have to wonder
what these worthy Hindutva-folks could be thinking when they insist on
needlessly creating a problem for the nation, based on nothing but the
fact that they like a particular song and have a tendency to give more
importance to their egos than in searching for an understanding
of the foundations of a successful and free India.
The case of Jehovah's witnesses is not relevant since they won't pay
obeisance to any symbol of statehood; there is no particular anthem
that offends them. On the other hand, their religion forbids them to
actively oppose (or support) the state for any reason; so the fact
that the rest of the citizens chose some national anthem doesn't
interest them in any way.
VB
nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari) writes:
>: I rather doubt that it is your program here to argue on behalf of
>: secularism. But, in any case, the "secularism" of India does not mean
>: Godlessness,
>"Secularism" is all about Godlesseness. Check your dictionary.
>God ans secularism do not go together.
I could not help responding to this assertion. No disrespect
intended but its simply incorrect. You seem to confuse secularism
with atheism. Secularism passes no judgement on God, on his/her/its
existence or its impact on non-state-related business.
It is a really simple idea of separation of church and state.
No more no less. In fact, in most of the current secular admini-
strations, atheists are routinely shortchanged in the interests
of keeping peace with majority populace (non-atheists). One
example would be the tax breaks enjoyed by religious establish-
ments;
Oh that reminds me: The govt should get out of the
business of running the temples asap. One objection often
voiced is that in pre-independence India, enormous endowments
were made to the temples by princes/kings out of public
kitty. However, I'd say, whats done is done; we *did* start
out on a clean slate in 1947. Its about time we, citizens of
India, concentrated more on generation of new wealth and
stopped worrying about who got a bigger slice of some
ancient pie.
Peace!
N. Tiwari
sur...@usa.net wrote:
: In article <5i8udi$lgv$4...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
: nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari) wrote:
: ???????
: Ganga.
Dear Ganga maiyaa or Suresh bhaiyaa:
Your remark "???????" is followed by your usual
diatribe against BJP. Perhaps, if you had understood
what I wrote in the first para, (which you did not,
since you reacted by typing ??????), you would have
realized the irrelevance of your later remarks.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
N. Tiwari
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya (bha...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: On previous occasssions when we debated this, I had asked you
: a)Whether these Newspapers are available in Virginia Poly, in which case
: I would ask for an interlibrary loan.
No they are not. However, you could get them from Calcutta.
: b)whether these quotes of Newspaper reports are from a book and in that
: case I wanted a fuller reference.
Yes they are from a book. I do not have a fuller reference.
: Regarding my contacts in India they have more pressing responsibilities
: than to go searching for a newspaper report.
Then so be it. BT: Same here.
: I have re-read Arnab's post. His post says the following:
: a) There was a request to Rabindranath to write a song welcoming the king.
: b)Rabindranath could not produce such a song. One day in his inspiration
: he wrote a poem on Bharata-Bhagya-Bidhata. In his mind the poem was to
: the glorious destiny of India. He picturised this destiny as a deity.
: c)He gives this song to "National commission" thinking that it might make
: them happy. [It was not very clear whether this commission was meant to
: celebrate Kings visit or whether this was Congress.
: d) The song was NOT SUNG in Delhi Durbar because it was not considered to
: be full of sufficient praise.
: So the only thing that comes out of this quote was that there was a
: request to Rabindranath to write a poem welcoming the king.
: Jana-Gana-Mana was addressed to the Indian destiny and Not to the king
: George (This is as per Rabindranath's own testimony which both Shivaramu
: (who is he by the way) and Dutta and Robinson mentions).
Now please re-read that post again. IN fact, his post tells
the very same things, that others have have claimed on the
basis of their readings of ShivaRamu's book. However,
you have repackaged the post of Arnab:
This is what he wrote, from his reading of RNT's biography.
a) The author's of biography have a feeling that the song WAS
written for king.
b) INC asked RNT to write a song to that effect.
c) INC produced a song next morning. However, he said something
like: This is for God (not destiny which you casually slipped
in). But you could recycle it for your purpose.
d) The song WAS sung at INC session in praise of king. (Not at
Durbar, because it WAS NOT PATRIOTIC ENUF. (The singing of
song is not mentioned in Arnab's post. However, the newspapers
alluded to it. The song BEING NOT PATRIOTIC ENUF is mentioned
in Arnab's post).
My interpretation: The opinion of Brits that songs was NOT
patriotic enuf, is imo itself a testimony that the song was
written for King bhakti. However, it was not meet the expectations
of Brits.
Finally, Nalinaksha, I really wonder about your abilities
to reformulate the existant to suit your ideological goals.
For instance, you by implying that RNT's song was written in
honor of deity (which was destiny) is one good example
of that. And such "facts" repeated 1000 times will become
facts indeed. However, what will happen in the end will
be that RNT will come out as an idiot. People, who will
believe in your "facts" will complain:
"Look, here is this person writing a song about India's
bhagya vidhata, and then calls that vidhata of India
is a God by the name of destiny. So, destiny is India's destiny".
Suggestion: Be more careful.
: : Still further, this song was sung in the INC session, in
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: : praise of king. I am quite sure that Arnab's ref. might
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: How do you conclude this? Was there a public announcement before the song
: was sung saying something like "Now our poet Rabindranath will sing a
: special composition in honour of His Exellency the King"? Even the
: Newspaper reports(?) quoted by you say nothing more then that a song by
: Rabindranath was sung at the INC session!.
You seem to selectively chose your own versions or facts. Read
the "newspaper reports". They say that the song was sung in
praise of king. Or is this a habit you got from your readings
of Sarkar et al.
: : b) To complain, whine and then ask me to shut up, as you
: : did on a previous occasion.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: No, I am merely asking you to provide the reference to Shivaramu's book
: and tell us his credentials and how far the compare with the credentials
: of say Sumit Sarkar.
Perhaps better. BTW,
it is not only Shivramu's story. Arnab mentions one more
story.
--------------------------------------------
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
M.Ranganathan
>I am very much at grips with reality. Unscrupulous fellows exist
>in every section of human population. But in India the
I am amazed. Finally you are coming to grips with reality.
>unscrupulous among the upper-castes/class go unpunished.
>Compare tandoor Sharma, HKL Bhagath with Billa and
>Ranga or assasins of MrsGandhi. Law should apply equally
>on every body Ranga.
Cant argue with you there.
>
> Just how you and some fellows defended Atal Behari
>Bajpayee who was responsible for killing of 1000's of
Errr... I did not support Vajpaye. I dont think he was responsible for
hooliganism however. To make that claim stick you have to prove that
he issued orders to kill.
>Muslims showed how uncouth and unscrupulous clannish
>people can get. For you as long as your common minimum
>agenda works you will defend it. You even questioned
>how BJP could be banned. I explained how in a secular
>democracy there is no room for BJP,VHP,RSS, Muslim League.
BJP cannot be banned because it represents the millions who voted for
it. Muslim Leauge cannot be banned for the same reason. In any case,
you will simply add to their cause by banning them. You dont understand
what secularism means. Secularism does not equate to banning religious
interests - just in separating "church and state". ie. If the
Hindutvavadis wanted to make India a Hindu republic (as they do) then
it is certainly against secularism. However, in the same fashion as the
extreme right is not banned here (for example the nazi party is legal)
you cannot ban Hindu (or muslim parties). You see, rhetoric is not
punishable. Only actual actions are.
>For Hindutvadis crime has crossed the limit and now
>it is legitimate and politically acceptable to commit it in
>the name of Ram.
Phony celestial beings are not good enough reasons to kill each other.
Ram or Allah or Jesus H. Christ or even Mariamma are not good enough
reasons to commit crimes. However, rhetoric is NOT against the law.
>
> We don't want Manu Smirthi as law of the land. Punish
>all the criminals immaterial of their caste. Get it Mr.
Atta boy Kathiravan! I got it long ago. Now I am glad to see some signs
that you are getting it.
>Ranga. Maybe you need a stronger reality dose.
Not at all. I am firmly grounded in reality. I disavow caste loyalties but
that does not mean I will stand idly around while you victimize Brahmins or
any other caste. You must understand people act as Individuals. They
do not necessearily represent their particular community or race or
whatever. So when you curse Indian politicians, I will will join voices
with you but when you curse at their community and I will be yelling at
you.
Ranga.
V.S.Senthilkumar
N. Tiwari (nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu) wrote:
: V.S.Senthilkumar (v...@best.com) wrote:
: : If you think a hindian and a tamilian are of same culture,
: : then it is right to say that "hindian" and "italian" are of
: : same culture.
: : If language is a small dissimilarity, then the whole world
: : has just one culture.
<snip>
: ultimate goal. That each and every person could empathize
: and share the joys and sadness of each and every other
: person in the world. And why even humans. This empathy
: should in an ideal sense extend to all that is jada
: as well as chetan. Modern environmental movements, in
: some sense, also have a part of this idea of "vasudhaiva
: kutumbakam" at their respective cores. With the almost
: exponential growth of science, this idea of havin a global
: family, is not only a desirable goal from an other-worldly
: perspective, but also a definite neccesity.
: However, to reach that ultimate goal, we as Indians have
: to learn to share our sorrows and joys within ourselves.
: That begins with me as an individual, to my family, to
: my locality and so on. So, a Hindian reaching out to a
: Italian is a possibility. But it comes later. Prior to
: that lies the idea of reaching out to a Tamilian, and then
: a Sri Lankan.
I don't know what the f*** "vasudhaiva kutumbakam" means.
It probably a hindi stuff. If so, i don't care to know.
Any way,
I think you see too much star trek to talk about all the
global family stuff of A.D. 2700.
If that is what you want, as a first step don't be a fanatic
about hindi. English has more potential to evolve as a global
language than hindi.
-vs senthilkumar
Nagasimha Iyengar
brao wrote:
>
> My point of view is that Muslims (or Hindus or poor people or whoever)
> are not mindless children to be "educated" into one line of thinking
Could'nt agree more. However, is'nt it funny how the muslim leadership
_has_ treated the muslims as "mindless adults" all these years?
Notice how they issue fatwas telling the muslims whom to vote and
whom not to vote. And their fatwas work too!!
> or another; I mean, different groups such as left-wingers and Hindutva
> types will try their best to influence the thinking of other people,
So will the Congress/TDP/DMK/JD...
> but ultimately people will make some kind of a rational decision
> oriented towards their best interests, based on the information they
> have.
In an under-educated country like India, hardly.
> In my opinion, the tone and content of your remarks vis-a-vis
> Muslims suggests that (from my point of view) you believe Muslims as a
> group are an exception to this free participation in the marketplace
> of ideas.
Historically, this has been true.
Barring the elite muslims (5%), the rest have largely withdrawn
themselves
into a shell, and their participation in the national mainstream has
been dismal. One only has to look at the number of muslims in the
army/police/services or even in modern private enterprise. From the
day they opted for a segregated school system(madrasas), they cut
themselves off the mainstream, and hence "free participation in the
marketplace of ideas" is an alien concept to them.
> In other words, the burden is on you to
> demonstrate that Muslims as a whole are idiots who dance to the tune
> of some mythic "p-seculars," as opposed to having sound,
> understandable reasons (from their point of view) for the
> decisions they make (as a group.)
Muslims are not idiots by birth. They have as much brainpower and
intelligence as any hindu/jew/sikh or any other group.
However, the islamic education, the rabid leadership and the
psecularist politician have collaborated to turn them into
idiots. They are victims, but not in the sense most people
mean.
> "p-seculars"(what this label means, other than a catchall pejorative
> for everyone who doesn't attend shaka, I am unable to fathom ) are
A simplistic dig at a simple concept...
> Same thing about the Arabic vs. Sanskrit issue. I know more Sanskrit
> ...(deleted)
> In a free country people are allowed to give
> importance to any cultural direction they choose.
Good point.
Now can you please tell us why is it that if a bunch
of Gowdas want to start a school and a college with the
sole purpose of teaching the superiority of Gowda culture,
the Gowda language, the Gowda food, the Gowda caste, the
Gowda gods, the Gowda skin-color, they are banned by law
from doing so?
Because, you see, Gowdas are hindus.
The point which we rabid,fascist,nazi BJP supporters
have been trying to make is - Why is it that in India
the minorities are allowed to give importance to any
cultural direction they choose, while the majority
is prohibited by law from doing so?
> The essence of "vivekam" or discrimination is in
> knowing what principle to apply when, and not to treat every problem
> like a nail just because one has somehow got hold of a hammer. In my
> experience, I have found that, in tracts emanating from the "Hindu
> Right," this sense of discrimination appears to be sorely lacking.
You're wrong. The "Hindu Right" has been extremely careful in
charting its manifesto to make sure that _no one's_ rights
are discriminated.
> Having a national
> anthem is not a requirement for having a free country.
I agree to this.
> In my view (no
> offense intended) it is incomprehensibly stupid to insist on a
> particular national anthem knowing in advance that it would alienate
> 12% of the population virtually en masse. Unless of course, one wants
> to announce to that 12% that they have to accept this against their
> will, simply because they are now a weakened minority. If the latter
> is the case, then no one should be surprised if the 12% decide to rise
> up in revolt.
You seem to be fascinated by the 12% figure. Now I would'nt be
too sure if you had made the above statement had the muslims
been 0.12% of the population. For example, if a small community,
say Naidus, oppose JanaGanaMana, for whatever reasons - do you
propose that we drop it as the national anthem because we cannot
alienate 0.0018% of the population?
Going by your logic, we should. Because numbers should not matter.
Even if ONE citizen of India opposes JGM, the national anthem
should be dropped because we cannot alienate even a single person.
> Even if they don't revolt overtly, if there enough
> tensions and resentments to impede national progress, I have to wonder
Define "enough". 12% again? So if the Naidus revolt, they
are not a threat "enough" to impede national progress?
> what these worthy Hindutva-folks could be thinking when they insist on
> needlessly creating a problem for the nation, based on nothing but the
> fact that they like a particular song and have a tendency to give more
> importance to their egos than in searching for an understanding
> of the foundations of a successful and free India.
While I agree with you on the sentiment that changing national
anthems, changing name to Bharat etc are not exactly the priority
for India, I am dismayed at the thought that a segment of the
population is _against_ it. Especially when this segment of the
population has far bigger problems to worry about.
Naga
--
Disclaimer: My views only
Spam-proof email address: Remove the J's in the email address before
sending.
M.Ranganathan
In article <5ie0ve$2...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Now don't define secularism for your convenience. Probably
>you have to revisit BJP/VHP/RSSs agenda. I don't have much
>to say now that I know your stand.
I would oppose banning KKK and Nazis in the US. That does not mean I
belong to the KKK. Likewise, I will fight anybody who wants to ban
any organization regardless of their ideology. Your pissing Dravidaa's
DK party included.
> BJP organized this pogrom. Train loads of people were taken
>to Ayodya. Some of its leaders even led the show. Now you ask
>for proof. You are pretending to go into a selective sleep mode.
The leaders who issued orders to kill should be put in jail. If Vajpaye was
involved and it can be proven of course he should do time. However, every man
is innocent till proven guilty.
>
> Don't come and tell me a story that politics is not
>communal. It is certainly communal interests that motivate
Indeed politics in India is communal. But that does not mean you should
hate the communities. When you make sweeping statements about Brahmins for
example, you are essentially making a statement about every individual
who happens to be one. You never seem to understand that simple fact.
>
> People holding public and religious responsibilities are
>individuals who are answerable to public and critics. ABV
Indeed. That is true. But you cannot ban parties because they espouse
views that you may find distasteful.
>is the President of a communal party that participated in
>a pogrom and you still defend him. It looks like in your
I dont defend him -- only in the right of his party to exist.
Kathiravan
In article <5idhbc$d...@baekdoo.cs.umd.edu>, ra...@cs.umd.edu (M.Ranganathan) writes:
|> In article <5ic07q$o...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
|> >
|>
|>
|> >Muslims showed how uncouth and unscrupulous clannish
|> >people can get. For you as long as your common minimum
|> >agenda works you will defend it. You even questioned
|> >how BJP could be banned. I explained how in a secular
|> >democracy there is no room for BJP,VHP,RSS, Muslim League.
|>
|> BJP cannot be banned because it represents the millions who voted for
|> it. Muslim Leauge cannot be banned for the same reason. In any case,
|> you will simply add to their cause by banning them. You dont understand
|> what secularism means. Secularism does not equate to banning religious
|> interests - just in separating "church and state". ie. If the
|> Hindutvavadis wanted to make India a Hindu republic (as they do) then
|> it is certainly against secularism. However, in the same fashion as the
|> extreme right is not banned here (for example the nazi party is legal)
|> you cannot ban Hindu (or muslim parties). You see, rhetoric is not
|> punishable. Only actual actions are.
|>
Now don't define secularism for your convenience. Probably
you have to revisit BJP/VHP/RSSs agenda. I don't have much
to say now that I know your stand.
|> >For Hindutvadis crime has crossed the limit and now
|> >it is legitimate and politically acceptable to commit it in
|> >the name of Ram.
|>
|>
|> Phony celestial beings are not good enough reasons to kill each other.
|> Ram or Allah or Jesus H. Christ or even Mariamma are not good enough
|> reasons to commit crimes. However, rhetoric is NOT against the law.
BJP organized this pogrom. Train loads of people were taken
to Ayodya. Some of its leaders even led the show. Now you ask
for proof. You are pretending to go into a selective sleep mode.
|>
|> Not at all. I am firmly grounded in reality. I disavow caste loyalties but
|> that does not mean I will stand idly around while you victimize Brahmins or
|> any other caste. You must understand people act as Individuals. They
|> do not necessearily represent their particular community or race or
|> whatever. So when you curse Indian politicians, I will will join voices
|> with you but when you curse at their community and I will be yelling at
|> you.
Don't come and tell me a story that politics is not
communal. It is certainly communal interests that motivate
Shakaracharya of Kanchi and RV the past President to back JJ.
It is certainly the communal interest of
Shankar Dayal Sharma to fall on the feet of Shakaracharya
and show that on TV. These people are not individuals. They
are part of the establishment that practices communal
policies in religion and politics.
People holding public and religious responsibilities are
individuals who are answerable to public and critics. ABV
is the President of a communal party that participated in
a pogrom and you still defend him. It looks like in your
dictionary if communalism
goes beyond a limit. i.e. from rhetorics to actual action
of parading people to destroy places of worship and killing
minorities it is OK!
Yell. I don't care. I am pointing out reality.
|> Ranga.
|>
N. Tiwari
Kathiravan (kkri...@bnr.ca) wrote:
: Now don't define secularism for your convenience. Probably
: you have to revisit BJP/VHP/RSSs agenda. I don't have much
: to say now that I know your stand.
Kathiravan_ji:
Please go thru the agenda of BJP. It is at:
Also, please do bear in mind that RSS and VHP, are not
political organizations. That is why, they do not fight
elections. However, they are related to BJP. They provide
the inspiration, and a sense of direction. In the same
way, as a raj_guru gave set the philosophy of a king
in past times.
BJP, from its manifesto, in no way advocate a state
that promotes inequity based on religion. The only way
to disprove this stmt. is by citing up appropriate
lines from the BJP manifesto.
: BJP organized this pogrom. Train loads of people were taken
: to Ayodya. Some of its leaders even led the show. Now you ask
: for proof. You are pretending to go into a selective sleep mode.
That does not tell us that this is a proof of
un_secularism. Yes, BJP had a very strong component
in asserting the Hindu_ness of the disputed structure.
But that is not a proof that BJP plans to pursue
policies that put nonHindus to disadvantage. What
it does show is that BJP stands for the rights of
Hindus. For some reason, a lot of Hindus, including
me, have been feeling that Hindus, and their faith
has been taken for granted. The Ram Janma Bhoomi
andolan was in part to assert the rights of Hindus.
I do not see anything wrong in that.
: |> Not at all. I am firmly grounded in reality. I disavow caste loyalties but
: |> that does not mean I will stand idly around while you victimize Brahmins or
: |> any other caste. You must understand people act as Individuals. They
: |> do not necessearily represent their particular community or race or
: |> whatever. So when you curse Indian politicians, I will will join voices
: |> with you but when you curse at their community and I will be yelling at
: |> you.
: Don't come and tell me a story that politics is not
: communal. It is certainly communal interests that motivate
: Shakaracharya of Kanchi and RV the past President to back JJ.
: It is certainly the communal interest of
: Shankar Dayal Sharma to fall on the feet of Shakaracharya
: and show that on TV. These people are not individuals. They
: are part of the establishment that practices communal
: policies in religion and politics.
That shows nothing. If I am a president, I can still fall at the
feet of a Shankaracharya. Nothing wrong with that. Secularism
does not imply that you get divorced from your religious beliefs.
For instance, we all know the close relationship between Billy
Graham, and a lot of American leaders, including American
presidents. I have absolutely no problem with it. The problem
arises, when govt. favors one religion over other. It is then
that I have a problem. In the case of India, there are
laws, that actually favor the nonHindus. That to me, is
wrong, and must be opposed.
Nachiketa Tiwari
brao
In article <334AA8E3...@grajmercy.ijos.com>,
Nagasimha Iyengar <iyen...@graJmercy.iJos.com> wrote:
*brao wrote:
**
** My point of view is that Muslims (or Hindus or poor people or whoever)
** are not mindless children to be "educated" into one line of thinking
*
*Could'nt agree more. However, is'nt it funny how the muslim leadership
*_has_ treated the muslims as "mindless adults" all these years?
*Notice how they issue fatwas telling the muslims whom to vote and
*whom not to vote. And their fatwas work too!!
Muslims are not the only ones who vote en bloc in India. Castes,
trades union, and all sorts of other groupings do the same. Forming
groups to promote shared political and cultural interests is
universal in human society. So is having leaders and following the
instructions of those leaders, to varying degrees. If you object to
Muslims in particular acting in this manner, perhaps you will be able
to explain the specific nature of your objection.
*
** or another; I mean, different groups such as left-wingers and Hindutva
** types will try their best to influence the thinking of other people,
*
*So will the Congress/TDP/DMK/JD...
*
** but ultimately people will make some kind of a rational decision
** oriented towards their best interests, based on the information they
** have.
*
*In an under-educated country like India, hardly.
Oh, you are mistaken if you think people without education and college
degrees are mindless, irrational idiots. The key is in the phrase
"based on the information they have."
*
** In my opinion, the tone and content of your remarks vis-a-vis
** Muslims suggests that (from my point of view) you believe Muslims as a
** group are an exception to this free participation in the marketplace
** of ideas.
*
*Historically, this has been true.
*
*Barring the elite muslims (5%), the rest have largely withdrawn
*themselves
*into a shell, and their participation in the national mainstream has
*been dismal. One only has to look at the number of muslims in the
*army/police/services or even in modern private enterprise. From the
*day they opted for a segregated school system(madrasas), they cut
*themselves off the mainstream, and hence "free participation in the
*marketplace of ideas" is an alien concept to them.
Again, you have to explain specifically why you think Muslims stand
out in this regard, as opposed to any impoverished segment of
society.
Note that free, universal public education has been available in India
for several decades now. Yet a relatively small number of poorer
people break out of their accustomed generational pattern of how their
children are taught--usually it is the family trade, it is very
rarely modern education. Where literacy and education drives have been
successful in recent times, it has been in areas where either the
government or the NGOs aggressively "sold" the benefits of modern
education to the people.
Both the pattern of staying away from formal modern education as well
as the pattern of being drawn to it in the presence of aggressive
marketing of education are, I believe, pretty uniform across a given
socioeconomic class. Religion is not a factor here. My information is
only anecdotal, but I am quite certain that actual statistical studies
will bear this out. There is at least one mostly-Muslim village in
Rayalaseema in A.P., where the girls took the lead in getting educated
and then teaching their adults. There was absolutely none of this
irrational resistance that you are claiming.
I honestly think that a lot of people allow their thinking to be
clouded by their prejudice against Muslims qua Muslims. Socioeconomic
class and shared elements of Indian culture (the tendency to
congregate into exclusive caste-like groupings, for example) play a
far more significant role in people's collective behavior than
religion.
It is unfortunate that for a great many of us, education and college
degrees don't bring with them the ability to think clearly; oftentimes
the native shrewdness and clarity of thinking that may exist in the
unlettered mind get obscured during the process of acquiring a degree
(and along with it the often unwarranted presumption of
intelligence).
*
** In other words, the burden is on you to
** demonstrate that Muslims as a whole are idiots who dance to the tune
** of some mythic "p-seculars," as opposed to having sound,
** understandable reasons (from their point of view) for the
** decisions they make (as a group.)
*
*Muslims are not idiots by birth. They have as much brainpower and
*intelligence as any hindu/jew/sikh or any other group.
*
*However, the islamic education, the rabid leadership and the
*psecularist politician have collaborated to turn them into
*idiots. They are victims, but not in the sense most people
*mean.
*
** "p-seculars"(what this label means, other than a catchall pejorative
** for everyone who doesn't attend shaka, I am unable to fathom ) are
*
*A simplistic dig at a simple concept...
*
** Same thing about the Arabic vs. Sanskrit issue. I know more Sanskrit
** ...(deleted)
** In a free country people are allowed to give
** importance to any cultural direction they choose.
*
*Good point.
*
*Now can you please tell us why is it that if a bunch
*of Gowdas want to start a school and a college with the
*sole purpose of teaching the superiority of Gowda culture,
*the Gowda language, the Gowda food, the Gowda caste, the
*Gowda gods, the Gowda skin-color, they are banned by law
*from doing so?
*
*Because, you see, Gowdas are hindus.
Did the Gowdas try this and were they prevented? Or are you arguing a
hypothetical case?
I can tell you that, in a number of Hindu religious ceremonies that I
have personally participated in, there were sanskrit verses that
clearly stated that brahmins were superior and sudras are inferior and
hence to be shunned. There are schools in Tirupati among other places that
exist for the purpose of teaching people to conduct these ceremonies.
These institutions are not illegal.
*
*The point which we rabid,fascist,nazi BJP supporters
*have been trying to make is - Why is it that in India
They say confession is good for the soul. :-)
Actually you left out the descriptor that I consider most
important. It is, to put it politely, "often befuddled in the mind."
*the minorities are allowed to give importance to any
*cultural direction they choose, while the majority
*is prohibited by law from doing so?
Can you be specific as to what you mean by majority is and what they
are prohibited by law from doing?
India's electoral system is naturally oriented towards "vote-bank"
politics. Also, as a political culture, we don't have the absolutist
level of respect for free expression that may be found in, say the
United States. Between the two, "vote bank appeasement" and a pattern
of "banning" this and that are quite common. The only thing one may
"accuse" the Muslims of doing (if that) is being consistent in voting
as a bloc (which under the right circumstances could be quite
advantageous to them) and gaining the right amount of attention from
the politicians.
*
** The essence of "vivekam" or discrimination is in
** knowing what principle to apply when, and not to treat every problem
** like a nail just because one has somehow got hold of a hammer. In my
** experience, I have found that, in tracts emanating from the "Hindu
** Right," this sense of discrimination appears to be sorely lacking.
*
*You're wrong. The "Hindu Right" has been extremely careful in
*charting its manifesto to make sure that _no one's_ rights
*are discriminated.
If your statement is meant to be a response to mine, I am afraid it
makes no sense whatsoever. You failed to understand what I wrote,
literally.
*
** Having a national
** anthem is not a requirement for having a free country.
*
*I agree to this.
*
** In my view (no
** offense intended) it is incomprehensibly stupid to insist on a
** particular national anthem knowing in advance that it would alienate
** 12% of the population virtually en masse. Unless of course, one wants
** to announce to that 12% that they have to accept this against their
** will, simply because they are now a weakened minority. If the latter
** is the case, then no one should be surprised if the 12% decide to rise
** up in revolt.
*
*You seem to be fascinated by the 12% figure. Now I would'nt be
*too sure if you had made the above statement had the muslims
*been 0.12% of the population. For example, if a small community,
*say Naidus, oppose JanaGanaMana, for whatever reasons - do you
*propose that we drop it as the national anthem because we cannot
*alienate 0.0018% of the population?
Did the Naidus object? If not, who cares?
The point is that it is not worth seriously jeopardizing national
cohesiveness for the sake of something inessential. Reminds me of the
story of the monkey and the king--the monkey, a friend of the king,
became annoyed when a fly dared to land on the king during his sleep;
so he chased after the fly with a sword, and eventually managed to cut
off the sleeping king's head.
And yes, numbers and potential for damage to the socioeconomic fabric
are important. (In the story of the monkey, imagine that he used a
rolled-up newspaper instead of a sword to chase the fly; or the fly
was not in the vicinity of any vital organ; the consequence
would not have been as tragic.) If you think alienating Muslims is an
acceptable price to pay for something or other, then you have to
answer the question of what you are going to do with such a huge
number of disaffected people who are capable of collective action. One
possibility that occurs to me is the Rwandan version of the Final
Solution where we just go and slaughter all Muslims. We have
experienced localized versions of that during the Partition. Do people
with any brains really think that Indian society is capable of
withstanding more experiences like that, this time on a national
scale? If they don't, how do they justify such ignorant and
unthinking belligerence instead of searching for constructive
solutions?
*
*Going by your logic, we should. Because numbers should not matter.
*Even if ONE citizen of India opposes JGM, the national anthem
*should be dropped because we cannot alienate even a single person.
On the contrary, the country can comfortably survive a small,
scattered number of alienated individuals. All countries have such
people all the time.
I really don't view this thing in such an academic (in the sense of
having no practical use) way; the quality of the decisions is more
usefully measured in terms of lost lives, property, productivity etc.
That is why I don't care about your hypothetical Gowdas and Naidus.
*
** Even if they don't revolt overtly, if there enough
** tensions and resentments to impede national progress, I have to wonder
*
*Define "enough". 12% again? So if the Naidus revolt, they
*are not a threat "enough" to impede national progress?
*
** what these worthy Hindutva-folks could be thinking when they insist on
** needlessly creating a problem for the nation, based on nothing but the
** fact that they like a particular song and have a tendency to give more
** importance to their egos than in searching for an understanding
** of the foundations of a successful and free India.
*
*While I agree with you on the sentiment that changing national
*anthems, changing name to Bharat etc are not exactly the priority
*for India, I am dismayed at the thought that a segment of the
*population is _against_ it. Especially when this segment of the
*population has far bigger problems to worry about.
Maybe it is unfortunate; maybe if I were to think it worthwhile to worry
about it, I might even share your dismay. But to me, it makes no sense
to waste national energy having a tantrum over someone else's
priorities especially where they conceern relatively insignficant
things; in a diverse country like India, every imaginable group has
its own opinions and priorities and bitterly resents anyone telling
them they are wrong. Muslims are not an exception to this. They are
similar fractal-like divisions among Muslims as well. There are people
who are fond of saying, essentially that India as we know it today has
no particular right to exist, implying that it wouln't be bad to see
it break up. To me, the reason why India is worth defending against
such folks is its promise of finding a way to build a constructive and
productive union out of such diverse and assertive groups. In that
sense, I think India stands or falls by how constructively she is able
to handle the "Muslim problem." At least the Hindutva folks should be
thanked for turning this into enough of a problem that the country is
forced to test its capacity to come up with solutions.
N. Tiwari
Kathiravan (kkri...@bnr.ca) wrote:
: You are technically right. But no Indian politician can ever
: be tried, however many people he will kill and maim. A leader
: of a party that carried a murderous agenda is directly responsible
: . Nothing will absolve him from the sin unless he disowns the
: party as a scrupulous individual. Advani was pictured in the parade.
: ABV was in the background and tactically avoided the action.
Actually, politicians have been raringly tried, and
sentenced too. The most recent cases belonging to
HKL Bhagat, and Kalpanath Rai. Then, there is the
case of Advani. Of all the netas, who have come out
clean, amongst these is Advani. When charges were
hurled against him of corruption, I thought that
perhaps, he was one more person. But then, strangely
enuff, he was the ONLY one, who said that he is not
going to contest elections, till the day, he is
cleared of the accusations. In contrast to his
standings, look what other "messiahs" said. For
instnace, Lalloo Yadav mentioned that he will take
the matter to people's court (as if elections are
there to judge one's honest/corrupt practices).
Going back to LKA's parade, I think that it was a
courageous thing to do. And if it indeed was wrong,
look what our secular sarkar at Delhi was doing.
VP Singh's interviews in Indian Express revealed,
that he agreed with RSS people that the existence
of a mandir at the place in dispute was unquestionable.
Then, he did not stop LKA. He was hoping that this
problem should be taken care of Laloo or Mulayam.
: |> >
: |> > Don't come and tell me a story that politics is not
: |> >communal. It is certainly communal interests that motivate
: |>
: |>
: |> Indeed politics in India is communal. But that does not mean you should
: |> hate the communities. When you make sweeping statements about Brahmins for
: |> example, you are essentially making a statement about every individual
: |> who happens to be one. You never seem to understand that simple fact.
: |>
: If you assume or misinterpret my statements Yes.
: I am talking to you here as an individual right.
: I know you believe in fairness
: and justice. Everybody comes with a different background
: with preferences and leanings. You may not be a religious
: fanatic BUT you may not understand why religion is bad in
: politics. You believe everybody in India other than Muslim
: and Christian are Hindus. I don't believe I am a Hindu
: because the classification itself is done by somebody.
Are you aware fo the nexus of missionaries, and Christian
clergy in your own home state (TN) and politics. The
Hindus have acquired this art only in relatively recent
times. However, the art as such has been in vogue since
a very long time. The nexus between clerics, and their
creed, and politics, has been all pervasive. We have
seen it happen in Kerala, in NE, in Goa, in TN, and
all sorts of places. Every Friday, the Imam of Jama
Masjid, delivers a sermons, that is on a number of
occasions, political.
If you really stand opposed to religious role in
politics, you should begin in the places which I
mentioned. ANd believe me, if that stops, the
Hindu backlash will disappear too.
: We all practice distinct cultures, worship different Gods
: and are a very diverse group of people. My opposition come
: from this view. The `Hindu' leaders who mostly come from the
: upper-caste North Indian society are trying to play this
: card and are threatening not just my self-identity BUT
: the self-identity of a host of tribes and ethnic groups.
: However suave or sophisticated, this tactics is destructive
: for our diveristy. It is difficult for somebody like you
: to understand about diversity if all you have seen is
: town and cities.
People in forests and remote places are being marginalised.
Yes that is true. But guess by whom!! By missionaries.
Take a peek in NE, and other areas. In places, where
these people are active, nativeness has been compromised
in the name of spiritual development. This problem is
not endemic to India. Continents, have been changed
and then native cultures eradicated, in the name of
God. I think it was TUtu, who said:
When the white man came, he had God, and we had
bread. Now we have God, and he has bread.
: Lets agree to disagree. There is no room for communal
: parties in democratic and plural set-up. BJP with VHP
: and RSS as Raja Gurus is out to establish the glorious
: caste system (Manu Tharma) with a few privileged people by virtue of
: birth become Gurus and other fight, till and shovel shit.
Your reaction is a consequence of you conditioning.
Did you know, that the foundation of the Ram temple
at the demolised strucutre's site was laid down by
a "Shudra". Did you know, that VHP is actively in-
volved in incorporating Shudras into the profession
of priesthood.
Did you know, that despite in the Saudi plane crash,
the only ones, who disposed off the dead bodies of
Muslim passengers, as per Islamic rites, were people
from the RSS.
Yes, if people like these become Gurus, then that
is indeed very good.
: The VHP demands (in bracket the true meaning
: of these deamnds).
: Scrap article 370 of the constitution.
: [Do not give special status to Kashmir]
Precisely. What is so SPECIAL about some
people. Are not all supposed to be EQUAL.
: Withdraw the act protecting places of
: worship.
: [so that we can demolish more Masjids
: and pave way for bloodshed]
Not correct.
: Arrange to sing vandemataram compulsorily in
: schools.
: [so as to keep religious minorities under
: eternal insecurity]
How come. If you praise your mother, how can
one feel insecure. That is ridiculous. If
you praise Tamil Nadu, should I, a person
from Rajasthan feel insecure. If that is ideed
true, then the problem is with me, and not
you.
: Deport immigrants from Bangladesh. [because
: they are useless poor non-brahmins converted
: to Islam. If pakistani immigrants have to be
: deported many bigshots including Advani may
: have to leave the country]
The issue is deporting of ILLEGAL immigrants.
If Advani falls in that category, then so be
it. Afterall, a country has some laws, and
those laws are supposed to be enforced, and
not flouted.
: Build Ram temple in Ayodya. [Now that the
: Masjid has been demolished].
That is a good idea. Esp. after the structure
is no more.
: Ban conversion out of Hinduism. [Because
: there can be no conversion into Hinduism]
I do not agree to banning of conversion by
law. But steps should be taken to ensure
that conversion is not happening because
of money, or power. Also, Muslims have converted
of Hinduism.
: Ban cow slaughter. [Because the poor of
: Indians will be deprived of their protein
: food]
A very big issue. There are religious,
as well as environmental concerns. If
cow killing is ok, then how about making
pictures of Mohd. and putting in newspapers.
Atleast in the latter case, you are not
killing someone.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Kathiravan
In article <5igfov$rem$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, nti...@rs3.esm.vt.edu (N. Tiwari) writes:
|> Kathiravan (kkri...@bnr.ca) wrote:
|>
|> : and Christian are Hindus. I don't believe I am a Hindu
|> : because the classification itself is done by somebody.
|>
|> Are you aware fo the nexus of missionaries, and Christian
|> clergy in your own home state (TN) and politics. The
|> Hindus have acquired this art only in relatively recent
|> times. However, the art as such has been in vogue since
|> a very long time. The nexus between clerics, and their
|> creed, and politics, has been all pervasive. We have
|> seen it happen in Kerala, in NE, in Goa, in TN, and
|> all sorts of places. Every Friday, the Imam of Jama
|> Masjid, delivers a sermons, that is on a number of
|> occasions, political.
My idea is not to have religion as an agenda
in electoral politics. It applies to Muslims or
Imam Bukhari as much as Sankaracharya.
|> If you really stand opposed to religious role in
|> politics, you should begin in the places which I
|> mentioned. ANd believe me, if that stops, the
|> Hindu backlash will disappear too.
There is nothing called `Hindu'. It is the
invention of scoundrels to come to power. If somebody
converts religion it is his personal choice.
|> : However suave or sophisticated, this tactics is destructive
|> : for our diveristy. It is difficult for somebody like you
|> : to understand about diversity if all you have seen is
|> : town and cities.
|>
|> People in forests and remote places are being marginalised.
|> Yes that is true. But guess by whom!! By missionaries.
|> Take a peek in NE, and other areas. In places, where
|> these people are active, nativeness has been compromised
|> in the name of spiritual development. This problem is
|> not endemic to India. Continents, have been changed
|> and then native cultures eradicated, in the name of
|> God. I think it was TUtu, who said:
|>
|> When the white man came, he had God, and we had
|> bread. Now we have God, and he has bread.
True. Tutu is a christian and yet African.
We can be the same. The hill tribal elders are
opposing conversion. When you fellas put that
piece of thread on a `Shudra' and say you become
a `brahmin' from now that is conversion and
rather bad one.
Leave the Shudra or whatever he/she is alone.
Infact you fellas are polluting our people the
Shudras and Panchamas you called in your holy
texts by trying to brahmanise/hinduise for vote
bank. Not only that you are parading our brothers
and sisters against our own Muslim and Christian
brothers. That is your problem boy!.
You know in TN there is a non-electoral, non-political
grass-root movement against all sorts of conversion.
|> : Lets agree to disagree. There is no room for communal
|> : parties in democratic and plural set-up. BJP with VHP
|> : and RSS as Raja Gurus is out to establish the glorious
|> : caste system (Manu Tharma) with a few privileged people by virtue of
|> : birth become Gurus and other fight, till and shovel shit.
|>
|> Your reaction is a consequence of you conditioning.
|> Did you know, that the foundation of the Ram temple
|> at the demolised strucutre's site was laid down by
|> a "Shudra". Did you know, that VHP is actively in-
|> volved in incorporating Shudras into the profession
|> of priesthood.
Go back. You stop converting us.
|> Did you know, that despite in the Saudi plane crash,
|> the only ones, who disposed off the dead bodies of
|> Muslim passengers, as per Islamic rites, were people
|> from the RSS.
|>
|> Yes, if people like these become Gurus, then that
|> is indeed very good.
People become Gurus by learning and teaching.
The filthy system that you have created discriminates
certain people from learning and has crippled some
people forever. Now instead of making amends you are
try to ceremoniously convert them, use them in your war
against our Muslim and Christian brothers. What a criminal
attitude.
|> : The VHP demands (in bracket the true meaning
|> : of these deamnds).
|>
|> : Scrap article 370 of the constitution.
|>
|> : [Do not give special status to Kashmir]
|>
|> Precisely. What is so SPECIAL about some
|> people. Are not all supposed to be EQUAL.
Equal slaves for you is better. I'd love
all states to be autonomous like say Quebec in Canada.
What is your problem. You would spend trillions in
army and yet keep your status quo as Raja Guru.
|> : Withdraw the act protecting places of
|> : worship.
|>
|> : [so that we can demolish more Masjids
|> : and pave way for bloodshed]
|>
|> Not correct.
|>
|> : Arrange to sing vandemataram compulsorily in
|> : schools.
|>
|> : [so as to keep religious minorities under
|> : eternal insecurity]
|>
|> How come. If you praise your mother, how can
|> one feel insecure. That is ridiculous. If
|> you praise Tamil Nadu, should I, a person
|> from Rajasthan feel insecure. If that is ideed
|> true, then the problem is with me, and not
|> you.
Praise your mother in your private quarters.
Don't force [read the word compulsorily] me to
sing your mother. Get the difference and shed
off your feudal instincts.
|> : Deport immigrants from Bangladesh. [because
|> : they are useless poor non-brahmins converted
|> : to Islam. If pakistani immigrants have to be
|> : deported many bigshots including Advani may
|> : have to leave the country]
|>
|> The issue is deporting of ILLEGAL immigrants.
|> If Advani falls in that category, then so be
|> it. Afterall, a country has some laws, and
|> those laws are supposed to be enforced, and
|> not flouted.
|> : Build Ram temple in Ayodya. [Now that the
|> : Masjid has been demolished].
|>
|> That is a good idea. Esp. after the structure
|> is no more.
So you say you'd put salt on wound rather than
amend. A good thing about BJP/RSS vaals is they
are a known quantity. Congress palys it both ways.
Kudos.
One more reason that I should oppose BJP.
|> : Ban conversion out of Hinduism. [Because
|> : there can be no conversion into Hinduism]
|>
|> I do not agree to banning of conversion by
|> law. But steps should be taken to ensure
|> that conversion is not happening because
|> of money, or power. Also, Muslims have converted
|> of Hinduism.
|>
|> : Ban cow slaughter. [Because the poor of
|> : Indians will be deprived of their protein
|> : food]
|>
|> A very big issue. There are religious,
|> as well as environmental concerns. If
|> cow killing is ok, then how about making
|> pictures of Mohd. and putting in newspapers.
|> Atleast in the latter case, you are not
|> killing someone.
Mohd is not my enemy. Neither Ram is my great
friend. You visit my village and see for yourself.
People don't know if they are ~hindu' because there
is nothing called Hindu identity for us.
And you come and tell me about conversion. We
never converted even when British was favoring
Christians. My grandfather who died at 93 said
that proudly. He would have no clue about being
a `Hindu'.
|> --
|> Nachiketa Tiwari
Kathiravan
In article <5iecvg$e...@baekdoo.cs.umd.edu>, ra...@cs.umd.edu (M.Ranganathan) writes:
|> In article <5ie0ve$2...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, Kathiravan <kkri...@bnr.ca> wrote:
|> >
|> >
|> > Now don't define secularism for your convenience. Probably
|> >you have to revisit BJP/VHP/RSSs agenda. I don't have much
|> >to say now that I know your stand.
|>
|>
|> I would oppose banning KKK and Nazis in the US. That does not mean I
|> belong to the KKK. Likewise, I will fight anybody who wants to ban
|> any organization regardless of their ideology. Your pissing Dravidaa's
|> DK party included.
I don't belong to DK party for your information.
|>
|>
|>
|> > BJP organized this pogrom. Train loads of people were taken
|> >to Ayodya. Some of its leaders even led the show. Now you ask
|> >for proof. You are pretending to go into a selective sleep mode.
|>
|>
|>
|> The leaders who issued orders to kill should be put in jail. If Vajpaye was
|> involved and it can be proven of course he should do time. However, every man
|> is innocent till proven guilty.
|>
You are technically right. But no Indian politician can ever
be tried, however many people he will kill and maim. A leader
of a party that carried a murderous agenda is directly responsible
. Nothing will absolve him from the sin unless he disowns the
party as a scrupulous individual. Advani was pictured in the parade.
ABV was in the background and tactically avoided the action.
|> >
|> > Don't come and tell me a story that politics is not
|> >communal. It is certainly communal interests that motivate
|>
|>
|> Indeed politics in India is communal. But that does not mean you should
|> hate the communities. When you make sweeping statements about Brahmins for
|> example, you are essentially making a statement about every individual
|> who happens to be one. You never seem to understand that simple fact.
|>
If you assume or misinterpret my statements Yes.
I am talking to you here as an individual right.
I know you believe in fairness
and justice. Everybody comes with a different background
with preferences and leanings. You may not be a religious
fanatic BUT you may not understand why religion is bad in
politics. You believe everybody in India other than Muslim
and Christian are Hindus. I don't believe I am a Hindu
because the classification itself is done by somebody.
We all practice distinct cultures, worship different Gods
and are a very diverse group of people. My opposition come
from this view. The `Hindu' leaders who mostly come from the
upper-caste North Indian society are trying to play this
card and are threatening not just my self-identity BUT
the self-identity of a host of tribes and ethnic groups.
However suave or sophisticated, this tactics is destructive
for our diveristy. It is difficult for somebody like you
to understand about diversity if all you have seen is
town and cities. People live in hills and villages who
don't know if they are `Hindu'. Aren't you practicisng
extremism by labelling them `Hindus'. For the upper-castes
it is a convenience. They don't have to oppose this agenda.
Infact it is politically unwise and sometimes suicidal
for them to do so. You may not be even realising some
of the things I am saying. It is OK! But I don't mind
getting something across the table for your consideration.
|> >
|> > People holding public and religious responsibilities are
|> >individuals who are answerable to public and critics. ABV
|>
|> Indeed. That is true. But you cannot ban parties because they espouse
|> views that you may find distasteful.
|>
|>
|> >is the President of a communal party that participated in
|> >a pogrom and you still defend him. It looks like in your
|>
|>
|> I dont defend him -- only in the right of his party to exist.
|>
Lets agree to disagree. There is no room for communal
parties in democratic and plural set-up. BJP with VHP
and RSS as Raja Gurus is out to establish the glorious
caste system (Manu Tharma) with a few privileged people by virtue of
birth become Gurus and other fight, till and shovel shit.
It is a Holy Land!
By Sangamitra in Periyar Era.. March 1996.
The Vishwa Hindu Parishad has come out
with a new 40 point agenda. They say, they would
create a powerful Hindu vote bank, which any political
party can encash, if once they accept this agenda.
How this vote bank will turn into political power,
nobody knows. You are eager to know the contents
of the VHP agenda, aren't you? We do not want
to waste our space on this rubbish [Refer `
THE HINDU' 17-1-96].
ALL TALL BUT ANTI-PEOPLE CLAIMS
The VHP demands (in bracket the true meaning
of these deamnds).
Scrap article 370 of the constitution.
[Do not give special status to Kashmir]
Withdraw the act protecting places of
worship.
[so that we can demolish more Masjids
and pave way for bloodshed]
Arrange to sing vandemataram compulsorily in
schools.
[so as to keep religious minorities under
eternal insecurity]
Deport immigrants from Bangladesh. [because
they are useless poor non-brahmins converted
to Islam. If pakistani immigrants have to be
deported many bigshots including Advani may
have to leave the country]
Build Ram temple in Ayodya. [Now that the
Masjid has been demolished].
Ban conversion out of Hinduism. [Because
there can be no conversion into Hinduism]
Ban cow slaughter. [Because the poor of
Indians will be deprived of their protein
food]
A few other demands
The VHP makes a few stupid and
nonsensical demands too. One is that India's
history must be re-written. That is, it should
contain only such facts as would suit the VHP/
RSS claims. Did you not see fake archeological
evidences from below the debris of babri masjid?
Oh! How elaborately and painstakingly they
planted these `evidences'? Such evidences
must go into history books too, No? And
last comes the joke of the millennium, the
VHP wants abortion to be banned. Why? Abortion
promotes immorality! Immorality will vanish
if the immoral child is allowed to be born
instead of being aborted.
No reservation if there is conversion
The VHP does not anywhere expound, whether
there would be any enhancement or extension of
reservation. It does not open up on proportional
reservation either. The only thing VHP says on
reservations is that people entering other
religions on conversion will forfeit their
reservation privileges. The president of
VHP, Mr. V.H. Dalmia says that by these
40 points, `The Hindu [read uppercaste brahmana
bania] aspirations are taken care
of'.
Communal campaign for political gains
The `Hindu' comment on the otherhand makes
it clear that it isa communal campaign by
VHP/RSS for political
gains by BJP. While BJP may not use religious
and fundamentalist matter in the election
campaign for the fear of dragged into
courts, the VHP/RSS can use any quantum of
this stuff. The VHP/RSS believe that the
minorities are not part of the Indian
nation. They talk of National mainstream,
comprising only of Hindus, Sikhs but not
Christians and Muslims even if born and
brought up in India.
What about food, shelter and clothing?
Does the VHP have any wise and valid
plan to provide food, shelter and clothing
to the teeming millions of India? The average
Indian sits on the ground, sleeps on the ground
and when time comes is cremated on the ground.
Ill-fed and under-clothed he is an aweful
shame by any world standards. VHP has nothing
to offer by way of social, economic and
political novelties to salvage these
masses.
No health, No education
The world has about 100 crore of
illiterate persons. About 60 crores live
in India alone. More than 50% of Indians
are below poverty line. There are oceans
on three sides of the country and ocean
full of fish. Yet the widest sickness in the country
is protein shortage. If only there had been
a proper fisheries development policy,
India could have become the richest nation
in the world through fish-trade and fish-food.
But what does VHP say? Non-vegetarianism
will be discouraged.......! So drastically
unrealistic and anti-people is the VHP.
Nothing about monopolistic hold on
the pillars of democracy
The VHP does not come out, on
making democracy a viable workable
and deep-rooted system in India.
All the four pillars of democracy, namely
the executive, judiciary, legislature
and press are the strong hold of
brahman-banias. Democratic forces have
suffocating and throttling effect. Does
VHP want to restore democracy to the full and
bloom? No there is nothing about it in the
40 point agenda.
|>
|>
P.Siddharth
Kathiravan wrote:
>
>> |> >Muslims showed how uncouth and unscrupulous clannish
> |> >people can get. For you as long as your common minimum
> |> >agenda works you will defend it. You even questioned
> |> >how BJP could be banned. I explained how in a secular
> |> >democracy there is no room for BJP,VHP,RSS, Muslim League.
> |>
The truly secular parties are the following:
DMK/ADMK/DK- because they want to decimate brahmins and exile the north
indians from India. they also are against Hindu religeon (not muslims
and christians) and their idol EVR was the most secular because broke
idols of ganesh and Ram.
Telugu Desam Party is a party of Kammas , very secular because they only
hate Reddys
Bahujan Samaj Party even though they like brahmins, they hate OBC's and
Yadavs
Deva Gowda who hates lingayats and his party in U.P. is a Thakur party
who hate banias.
Congress party of Sitaram Kesari who hate Thakurs,banias,brahmins and
want 100% reservations
Akali Dal who only hate hindus.
This logic is the result of a brain that has not been used by such
useless excercises as reading.Facts are not important.If anyone
disagrees with you one can always get support of like minded suresh and
Kattabomman.They are also people of high breeding and have been brought
up with a good respectable vocabulary,like 'pimp'bastard' etc.Secularism
means a belief in caste and discrimination so that the retarded can get
a chance and people with 5th grade education should be given
degrees.Then they can claim to be equal to others who have come up by
merit and write nonsense.
Nagasimha Iyengar
brao wrote:
> Muslims are not the only ones who vote en bloc in India. Castes,
> trades union, and all sorts of other groupings do the same. Forming
While it is true that collective tendencies plague almost all segments
of indian society, it is also a fact that among muslims it is endemic.
They have reached a stage where no individual thought or action is
tolerated.
> Oh, you are mistaken if you think people without education and college
> degrees are mindless, irrational idiots. The key is in the phrase
> "based on the information they have."
And if they cannot read or write, what will be their information based
on?
> Again, you have to explain specifically why you think Muslims stand
> out in this regard, as opposed to any impoverished segment of
> society.
The extent. While it is true that an impoverished low-caste hindu
segment like, say, kurubas, also vote for a candidate of their own
caste, they have the judgement to reject any candidate who screams
that "Kurubas are in danger" and "Non-kurubas are filth". The muslims
do not posess this judgement, and those who do, are afraid to act
on their judgement.
> Both the pattern of staying away from formal modern education as well
> as the pattern of being drawn to it in the presence of aggressive
> marketing of education are, I believe, pretty uniform across a given
> socioeconomic class. Religion is not a factor here.
I never once said that Islam is a factor. Muslim leadership, the
politicians of the last 5 decades are a factor. They have ensured,
simply to stay in power, that the common muslim does not get a
modern education to join the mainstream. In fact, they DO NOT
want the common muslim to join the mainstream. Whom will he vote
for, if he does?!!
> My information is
> only anecdotal, but I am quite certain that actual statistical studies
> will bear this out. There is at least one mostly-Muslim village in
> Rayalaseema in A.P., where the girls took the lead in getting educated
> and then teaching their adults. There was absolutely none of this
> irrational resistance that you are claiming.
>
Please please please...
Do not generalise on one example. And BTW, do the mullahs know
of this village?
> I honestly think that a lot of people allow their thinking to be
> clouded by their prejudice against Muslims qua Muslims. Socioeconomic
> class and shared elements of Indian culture (the tendency to
> congregate into exclusive caste-like groupings, for example) play a
> far more significant role in people's collective behavior than
> religion.
A clever way of hinting that I'm prejudiced against muslims ;)
That's OK. You're not the first to try this.
Caste plays a more significant role than religion in collective
behaviour? Check your sources again. Caste system has largely
been limited to choosing of spouses. When I think back of my
childhood in India and remember my old friends, I can recall
everything, their talk, dress, tastes, likes, dislikes, except
their caste.
>
> It is unfortunate that for a great many of us, education and college
> degrees don't bring with them the ability to think clearly; oftentimes
> the native shrewdness and clarity of thinking that may exist in the
> unlettered mind get obscured during the process of acquiring a degree
> (and along with it the often unwarranted presumption of
> intelligence).
What was it that you wrote? Confession is good for the soul?
> Did the Gowdas try this and were they prevented? Or are you arguing a
> hypothetical case?
Brao, this _has_ to be a hypothetical case. Because hindus by law are
not allowed to have religious schools. So much so that Ramkrishna
Mission
tried to declare itself to be non-hindu to start their own school.
>
> I can tell you that, in a number of Hindu religious ceremonies that I
> have personally participated in, there were sanskrit verses that
> clearly stated that brahmins were superior and sudras are inferior and
> hence to be shunned. There are schools in Tirupati among other places that
> exist for the purpose of teaching people to conduct these ceremonies.
> These institutions are not illegal.
Talk about comparing apples and oranges.
You're talking of schools for priests. I'm talking about regular
schools, like the muslim and jesuit schools. Hindus are _not_
allowed to have it.
> Can you be specific as to what you mean by majority is and what they
> are prohibited by law from doing?
I studied in St.Xaviers. And in Sacred Heart.
These schools were missionary schools, and the governemnt
had no say in whom they could hire as teachers, what they
could charge, what they could teach, etc etc. In the moral
science class, we had jesuit teachings. And these schools
were recognised by the Bihar govt!! Please name one hindu
school which exists, like the one I mentioned above.
> Did the Naidus object? If not, who cares?
You failed to tell me what you think should be done in a
hypothetical situation like "Naidus oppose JGM". Should
JGM be banned? Yes or No.
> And yes, numbers and potential for damage to the socioeconomic fabric
> are important.
EXCUUSE MEEE!!
This is the kind of hypocritical thinking which has been the
backbone of vote-bank politics.
If muslims are "more important" then Naidus because they are
in larger numbers, then hindus must be "more important"
than muslims by the same logic!!
> If you think alienating Muslims is an
> acceptable price to pay for something or other, then you have to
> answer the question of what you are going to do with such a huge
> number of disaffected people who are capable of collective action.
Translation: If 12% of the population starts throwing bombs at
kindergartens, what do we do?
If vande-mataram and changing the name to Bharat is going
to trigger off a revolt, then the disease affecting the
community is past curing stage. What they're trying to say
is that even if 82% of the population is asking for something
which does not violate anyone's rights in the nation, we'll
revolt because "we don't like it".
> On the contrary, the country can comfortably survive a small,
> scattered number of alienated individuals. All countries have such
> people all the time.
I see.
So if Naidus start throwing bombs at buses, "we can handle them".
Because they're only 0.0018% of the population.
> Maybe it is unfortunate; maybe if I were to think it worthwhile to worry
> about it, I might even share your dismay. But to me, it makes no sense
> to waste national energy having a tantrum over someone else's
> priorities especially where they conceern relatively insignficant
> things;
I do agree with this. However, define "insignificant". Insignificant
to whom? To me and you, yes. How about to the millions who want
VM? And if this is insignificant, your 12% should be yawning at
making VM as the anthem. But you say that they'll be up in arms.
Which means it _is_ significant.
Naga
Disclaimer: My views only.
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
Nagasimha Iyengar
I sent a longish reply earlier but something in my ISP
seems to have swallowed it up. Hence, another hasty
attempt to recreate what I wrote...
brao wrote:
> Muslims are not the only ones who vote en bloc in India. Castes,
> trades union, and all sorts of other groupings do the same. Forming
> groups to promote shared political and cultural interests is
> universal in human society. So is having leaders and following the
> instructions of those leaders, to varying degrees. If you object to
> Muslims in particular acting in this manner, perhaps you will be able
> to explain the specific nature of your objection.
The extent of the problem. A low caste kuruba voting for a kuruba
candidate has the discrimination to denounce candidates who scream
"kurubas are in danger" or "non-kurubas are filth", largely
due to secular education. The muslims lack in this largely due
to islamic education.
> Oh, you are mistaken if you think people without education and college
> degrees are mindless, irrational idiots. The key is in the phrase
> "based on the information they have."
If they cannot read and write, what information will they base on?
> Again, you have to explain specifically why you think Muslims stand
> out in this regard, as opposed to any impoverished segment of
> society.
Repeat: Religious education, fundamentalist leaders, and psuedo-
secular politicians.
> I honestly think that a lot of people allow their thinking to be
> clouded by their prejudice against Muslims qua Muslims. Socioeconomic
> class and shared elements of Indian culture (the tendency to
> congregate into exclusive caste-like groupings, for example) play a
> far more significant role in people's collective behavior than
> religion.
An insidious way of suggesting that I'm prejudiced against muslims
because of their faith - not because of their actions. That's all
right brao - you're not the first to stumble.
>
> It is unfortunate that for a great many of us, education and college
> degrees don't bring with them the ability to think clearly; oftentimes
> the native shrewdness and clarity of thinking that may exist in the
> unlettered mind get obscured during the process of acquiring a degree
> (and along with it the often unwarranted presumption of
> intelligence).
In your own words: Confession does good to the soul ;)
> Did the Gowdas try this and were they prevented? Or are you arguing a
> hypothetical case?
It _has_ to be a hypothetical case. It is banned by law in India
for hindus to freely operate schools.
>
> I can tell you that, in a number of Hindu religious ceremonies that I
> have personally participated in, there were sanskrit verses that
> clearly stated that brahmins were superior and sudras are inferior and
> hence to be shunned. There are schools in Tirupati among other places that
> exist for the purpose of teaching people to conduct these ceremonies.
> These institutions are not illegal.
Apples and oranges, anyone?
You're talking of schools for priests.
I'm talking of hindu variants of St.Xavier's, etc.. which
are prohibited.
> Did the Naidus object? If not, who cares?
Hypothetically, if they object, would you ban it?
> The point is that it is not worth seriously jeopardizing national
> cohesiveness for the sake of something inessential.
Inessential to whom? Me? Yes. You? Yes. But what about the
hundreds of millions who want it?
> If you think alienating Muslims is an
> acceptable price to pay for something or other, then you have to
> answer the question of what you are going to do with such a huge
> number of disaffected people who are capable of collective action.
Translation: What do we do if 12% of the population starts
throwing bombs?
We let, as the politicians put it, the law take its own course.
> On the contrary, the country can comfortably survive a small,
> scattered number of alienated individuals. All countries have such
> people all the time.
I see.
If the naidus start throwing bombs, we can comfortably contain
them since they are only 0.00018% of the population. Hence let's
ignore their sentiments.
> But to me, it makes no sense
> to waste national energy having a tantrum over someone else's
> priorities especially where they conceern relatively insignficant
> things;
Insignificant? To whom? Inessential? to whom?
The point is brao - where does this stop?
If >50% of the population wants something which does not
violate anyone else's rights in a democracy, they should
be given it.
It is ridiculous to say that VM and "Bharat" will offend
muslims and hence we should not do it.(Personally, I
don't think the average muslim even cares).
Sometime in the last decade, a small band of muslims, commies
and other hyper-secular congressvadis were arguing that India
should not name its tanks and missiles as "Arjun", "Trishul"
because it might hurt the sentiments of muslims. And like
you, they screamed that muslims would be up in arms. VP Singh
rightly laughed them off. Did anything happen? Not a thing.
Same in this situation. Nothing will happen. Muslims, hindus
and christians will continue to stand in long lines for ration
rice and kerosene.
You sound like Amitabh Bachchan, who refused to light a lamp
at an inaugural function recently because it was communal!!!
sur...@usa.net
In article <5idh4u$pfv$2...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
Dear Nachiketha Maami,
To a person from Tamil Nadu (meaning Tamil country),
strange words like the ones you had used to prop up
the destructive hindutva agenda is indeed something
incomprehensible and more importantly unwanted.
It would be better if the hindutva brigade stopped talking
in a strange tongue and put their "good" words into action,
rather than spread hatred on the ground.
I just wish the hindutva brigade stays away from the south.
Ganga.
> since you reacted by typing ??????), you would have
> realized the irrelevance of your later remarks.
--
> Nachiketa Tiwari
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
sur...@usa.net
In article <334C60...@mail.idt.net>,
ps...@mail.idt.net wrote:
[.......pimp siddarth ravings deleted....]
> This logic is the result of a brain that has not been used by such
> useless excercises as reading.Facts are not important.
Come on Maams. Please explain to us about the brilliant logic by
which the brahmans fleeced the rest of society for thousands of years.
Also include the benefits the brahmans got by pimping for the brits.
Now that you moronic pimps have looted everything you want a
level playing field? Let us see your "facts" to prove me wrong.
If anyone
> disagrees with you one can always get support of like minded suresh and
> Kattabomman.
Maama, you are one of the vilest persons on SCT. I will continue to
talk to you in the language you understand. The first one to call
me "indecent" is a brahmin. He!He!(Also the second one till the
n th one..)
They are also people of high breeding and have been brought
> up with a good respectable vocabulary,like 'pimp'bastard' etc.Secularism
Please tell me MAAAMS, if you go around pimping for fair skinned women
(like proundiyengar aka ravikrishna iyengar used to boast) what do you
expect to be called? Nothing but a pimp. This is not a bad word, my
dear MAAMS, it is only the actions of people like you which make it
bad.
> means a belief in caste and discrimination so that the retarded can get
> a chance and people with 5th grade education should be given
Coome on MAAAAAAAMS. Get a grip on yourself in your old age. Why should
a pimp like you be worried about educational qualifications of others.
> degrees.Then they can claim to be equal to others who have come up by
> merit and write nonsense.
Ganga.
sur...@usa.net
In article <334BA5...@merck.com>,
Nagasimha Iyengar <nagasimh...@merck.com> wrote:
>
> brao wrote:
>
> > I can tell you that, in a number of Hindu religious ceremonies that I
> > have personally participated in, there were sanskrit verses that
> > clearly stated that brahmins were superior and sudras are inferior and
> > hence to be shunned. There are schools in Tirupati among other places that
> > exist for the purpose of teaching people to conduct these ceremonies.
> > These institutions are not illegal.
>
I couldn't help but observe this rather frank admission by Mr. Rao about
the brahminical practices being followed even today. I have to respect
Mr. Rao for refusing to be a part of this. On the other hand, I find
it hard to digest that Mr. Iyengar has completely ignored this issue
(implying tacit approval for this practice?) in his reply below.
> Talk about comparing apples and oranges.
>
> You're talking of schools for priests. I'm talking about regular
> schools, like the muslim and jesuit schools. Hindus are _not_
> allowed to have it.
>
Hindutva supporters will go to any end to justify their claims about
the "terrible" muslims, while they treat the hindu lower castes with
such scorn!
Ganga.
> Naga
>
> Disclaimer: My views only.
>
> The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
> This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
> my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
> made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
> sender.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Balakrishnan
are closed to non-Hindus. However, minority institutions are allowed to
close their doors to those who do not belong to that minority.
>Sometime in the last decade, a small band of muslims, commies
>and other hyper-secular congressvadis were arguing that India
>should not name its tanks and missiles as "Arjun", "Trishul"
>because it might hurt the sentiments of muslims. And like
>you, they screamed that muslims would be up in arms. VP Singh
>rightly laughed them off. Did anything happen? Not a thing.
>
>Same in this situation. Nothing will happen. Muslims, hindus
>and christians will continue to stand in long lines for ration
>rice and kerosene.
>
>You sound like Amitabh Bachchan, who refused to light a lamp
>at an inaugural function recently because it was communal!!!
>
>Naga
>
Lighting a lamp in a function can be viewed as communal, or as Indian.
It should also be remembered that whatever is viewed as an Indian
tradition is viewed within India as a Hindu tradition by the minorities.
I am not saying that all believe so but only that I have heard voices of
dissent from members of the minority as also majority communities.
Things like lighting a lamp are harmless(except for the loss of time
caused by the incompetent organizers) and the reason why people object
to these is not entirely clear. If one were to remove all events which
are associated with hinduism from public functions, then there will be
nothing remaining of Indian origin. Indian functions will be no
different from Western functions!
Balakrishnan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BALAKRISHNAN VISWANATHAN
vis...@omc.lan.mcgill.ca
bs...@musicb.mcgill.ca
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarve janaah sukhino bhavantu
M.Ranganathan
In article <334C60...@mail.idt.net>, P.Siddharth <ps...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>
>The truly secular parties are the following:
>DMK/ADMK/DK- because they want to decimate brahmins and exile the north
>indians from India. they also are against Hindu religeon (not muslims
>and christians) and their idol EVR was the most secular because broke
>idols of ganesh and Ram.
>Telugu Desam Party is a party of Kammas , very secular because they only
>hate Reddys
>Bahujan Samaj Party even though they like brahmins, they hate OBC's and
>Yadavs
>Deva Gowda who hates lingayats and his party in U.P. is a Thakur party
>who hate banias.
>Congress party of Sitaram Kesari who hate Thakurs,banias,brahmins and
>want 100% reservations
>Akali Dal who only hate hindus.
Good heavens! This sounds like a GRE problem.
Select one:
1. A person who is a Kamma and Bania hates Brahmins
2. A pro reservation person hates Kammas.
3. Deve Gowda is a Yadav.
4. Akali Dal Hates idols.
5. EVR was an idol who drank piss and broke other idols.
6. None of the above.
7. Some of the above.
9. Sikhs are Hindus.
10. Kathiravan is Hindu although he does not know it. (He who knows not
and knows not that he knows not is a fool).
Here's an artificially intelligent lisp predicate to offset the natural
stupidity of SCT.
(Hates ( Gowda ( yadav( bania(lingayat (isa kathirist hindu))))) kattaboman)
>Kattabomman.They are also people of high breeding and have been brought
>up with a good respectable vocabulary,like 'pimp'bastard' etc.Secularism
What vocabulary would you use if you were highly into breeding?
N. Tiwari
sur...@usa.net wrote:
: Hindutva supporters will go to any end to justify their claims about
: the "terrible" muslims, while they treat the hindu lower castes with
: such scorn!
I do not know about the large Hindu population,
but some of the most hard core Hindus (by which
I imply those who have gone thru RSS drills)
have hardly caste equations at the top of your
heads. And for no uncertain reason, Tirupati
is not one of the strong holds of Hindutva_
vaadis.
Did you know that the Ram Temple's founding
stone was laid by a Shudra.
--
Nachiketa Tiwari
Nagasimha Iyengar
sur...@usa.net wrote:
> > brao wrote:
> > > I can tell you that, in a number of Hindu religious ceremonies that I
> > > have personally participated in, there were sanskrit verses that
> > > clearly stated that brahmins were superior and sudras are inferior and
> > > hence to be shunned. There are schools in Tirupati among other places that
> > > exist for the purpose of teaching people to conduct these ceremonies.
> > > These institutions are not illegal.
> the brahminical practices being followed even today. I have to respect
> Mr. Rao for refusing to be a part of this.
There is nothing explicit in brao's message that he refused to be a
part of such religious ceremonies. All he was saying was that such
practices and institutions exist.
> On the other hand, I find
> it hard to digest that Mr. Iyengar has completely ignored this issue
> (implying tacit approval for this practice?) in his reply below.
The practice of considering shudras as inferior is ghastly and
medieval. It is adharma inside out.