A ThEvaaram verse (translation)
Sundara Pandian
popular ThEvaaram verse,
`maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
Siddhantha. I have some questions about the meanings of
some of the Tamil words in this `veNpaa'.
maasil veeNaiyum - What does it mean here ? What is
a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
Veena is a musical instrument.
I don't understand this comparison
here.. ) Does the poet mean that
the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
Was Carnatic music developed in the
days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
maalai madhiyamum - I know this means `evening' here.
In the current Tamil usage, `maalai'
itself means `evening'. This `maalai'
may be a short form of the old word
`maalai madhiyam' for `evening'.
veesu thenRalum - I know this means `pleasant wind'.
This comparison is clearly a continuation
of `maalai madhiyamum', as we get cool
wind in the evenings in TN.
veenkiLa vEnilum - I know that `vEnil' also means `kaaRRu'.
Also `veenkiLa' = `veengu + iLa'. I think
this comparison is a _repitition_.
moosu vaNdaRaip poykai - I know that `poykai' means a `pond'.
What is `moosu vaNdaRai' ? I was lost
here...
pOnRathE = Like above..
eesan endhan = Our Lord Shiva ( I think the word `eesan' for
Shiva is from the Sanskrit word `eeswaran' for
Shiva.. )
iNaiyadi = his glorious feet..
neezhalE = shelter.
A translation (to be completed):
-------------------------------
"Like a pure Veena (?), like a pleasant evening, like a cool wind,
like fresh, pleasing wind, like a (??) pond is the shelter of the
glorious feet of our Lord Shiva. "
- SP.
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>In article <930122061...@cec2.wustl.edu> s...@cec2.wustl.edu
> (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>> I think many Tamil nettors must have heard of the
>> popular ThEvaaram verse,
>>
>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>
>> maasil veeNaiyum - What does it mean here ? What is
>> a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
>> Veena is a musical instrument.
>> I don't understand this comparison
>> here.. ) Does the poet mean that
>> the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
>> music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
>> Was Carnatic music developed in the
>> days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
>>
>If 'maasil veeNaiyum' could mean 'maasilaa veeNaiyum', it makes
>sense. "Flawless veeNai". No cracks or loose joints.
>I suppose 'veeNai' is as old as 'SaraSvathi'.
It is maasil veeNaiyaum. It is correct. maasu=kuRRam-imperfect, flaw
maasu+il:no flaw, flawless.
In thamizh negation can be made just by addition:
Another Ex:
maasu+aRRa some times used like
"maasu aRu ponnE, valampuri muthE
karumbE thEnE ----------silappadikaaram `
anban
Kathiravan
Meenan Vishnu
> popular ThEvaaram verse,
>
> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>
> The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
> is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
> Siddhantha. I have some questions about the meanings of
> some of the Tamil words in this `veNpaa'.
>
> maasil veeNaiyum - What does it mean here ? What is
> a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
> Veena is a musical instrument.
> I don't understand this comparison
> here.. ) Does the poet mean that
> the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
> music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
> Was Carnatic music developed in the
> days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
maasil = maasu + il (flaw + not).
veeNai == a South Indian musical instrument
Hence it means flawless veeNai music.
>
> maalai madhiyamum - I know this means `evening' here.
> In the current Tamil usage, `maalai'
> itself means `evening'. This `maalai'
> may be a short form of the old word
> `maalai madhiyam' for `evening'.
maalai == evening, garland
madhi == moon, intellect
So it means evening moon.
>
> veesu thenRalum - I know this means `pleasant wind'.
> This comparison is clearly a continuation
> of `maalai madhiyamum', as we get cool
> wind in the evenings in TN.
veesu == blow, flow
thenRal == breeze.
So it means flowing breeze
>
> veenkiLa vEnilum - I know that `vEnil' also means `kaaRRu'.
> Also `veenkiLa' = `veengu + iLa'. I think
> this comparison is a _repitition_.
No it is not.
veenku == swell, full, overflow, abundant, luxuriant etc
iLa + vEnil == young, active, + spring season (also vasantham)
So it means luxuriant and lively spring season.
>
> moosu vaNdaRaip poykai - I know that `poykai' means a `pond'.
> What is `moosu vaNdaRai' ? I was lost
> here...
moosu == cuNNaampu (?), lime
moosu vaNdaRai == lime room (?) (see below for explanation)
poykai == pond
pOnRathu == it is like, identical to, same as
It means "The lime room is (cool) like a pond."
>
> pOnRathE = Like above..
>
> eesan endhan = Our Lord Shiva ( I think the word `eesan' for
> Shiva is from the Sanskrit word `eeswaran' for
> Shiva.. )
>
I think it should read eesan endhai.
eesan == Lord, God, Siva
endhai == (?)
iNai + adi == (?) + feet
nizal + E == shadow, shelter + verily
> iNaiyadi = his glorious feet..
>
> neezhalE = shelter.
>
>A translation (to be completed):
>-------------------------------
> "Like a pure Veena (?), like a pleasant evening, like a cool wind,
> like fresh, pleasing wind, like a (??) pond is the shelter of the
> glorious feet of our Lord Shiva. "
>
>- SP.
>
Like flaw-less veeNa (music)
And Like the (pleasant) evening moon
And Like flowing breeze
And Like luxuriant and lively spring season
And Even lime room is like a cool pond
When I am at the shelter of my Lord's feet.
Appar is said to have sung this when the Jains (the bad guys) tortured
him by placing him in a lime room (cunnaampu-aRai). When one is
placed in a lime room, he suffers because of de-hydration. But here
Appar says even the lime room is like a cool pond when he has taken
shelter in Lord's feet. This may have been a general statement
like the Valluvar who said "It is very difficult for one to destroy
mental anxiety except by being a theist" and an anti-Jain story
might have been woven around this song later (at the time of Periya Puranam)
Anyway Periya Puranam talks about Jain's torture of Appar. Other tortures
the Jains are alleged to have done to Appar include: tying Apper to a stone
and casting him in waters at which time he sang 'soRRuNai vEthiyan...'
and the stone started floating.
'kaRRuNaip pooddiyOr kadalinuL paaccinum naRRuNai aavathu namacci vaayavE'
kal == stone
thuNai == with, to, help
pooddi == tie, lock
Or == a, one
kadal + in == sea + 's
uL == inside
paacu + in + um == cast, jump + if + even
naL + thuNai == good + help
aavathu == be
nama + sivaaya + E == 'name of Siva (Skt)' + verily, indeed
(Even if one is tied to a stone and cast into water the manthra
'nama sivaya' will be of help)
Appar was one of the few non-Bramin (vELaaLar) naayanmaars.
He was a contemporary of thiru-njaana-sambandhar. He used go around
with an uLavaaram (a tool used for removing grass) to temples to clean
temple yards by removing grass. Appar was a Jain and was converted to
Saivaism by his sister. He cured the 'soolai nOy' of Pandian king with
the help of holy ash 'thiru neeRu'.
More than 70% of his works are lost when his and other naayanmaar's
Tamil works were locked by Smartha Bramins (to foster their Skt. tradition).
His and other naayanmaar are credited with bringing God and religion closer
to masses by introducing worship in mother tongue. Unfortunately, even
this Bakthi movement was later (around 12th century AD) hijacked by
Sanskrit zealots and temple worship and other daily rituals were
(and are still) done in Skt. However these naayanmaar still are
beloved of the Tamil people and the Bakthi lifestyle they started
spread to other states in India (TN is/was first in doing things in
India). However, the onslaught of Rationalism in this century had
identified some of the later ultra junk works (such as Periya PuraaNam)
of this movement to the Tamil people.
Meenan Vishnu
snr...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
"Masil VeeNai" - Who can think of such combinations of words like
this and which language can let you express so eloquently like this!!
except Tamil.
Thanks for the posting.
Hope someone will enlighten us on "Moosu VaNdarai".
Can someone tell me what raga is best suited for this eternal song.
I am sure I heard it somewhere.
VaaLga TamiL! VaaLga NatRamiLar!!
Anbudan
Ramanan
snr...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
>In <C19H4...@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> sr...@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.) writes:
>
>>In article <930122061...@cec2.wustl.edu> s...@cec2.wustl.edu
>> (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>> I think many Tamil nettors must have heard of the
>>> popular ThEvaaram verse,
>>>
>>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
meaning? It sounds so Goood!
>>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>>
>>> maasil veeNaiyum - What does it mean here ? What is
>>> a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
>>> Veena is a musical instrument.
>>> I don't understand this comparison
>>> here.. ) Does the poet mean that
>>> the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
>>> music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
>>> Was Carnatic music developed in the
>>> days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
>>>
>>If 'maasil veeNaiyum' could mean 'maasilaa veeNaiyum', it makes
>>sense. "Flawless veeNai". No cracks or loose joints.
>
>>I suppose 'veeNai' is as old as 'SaraSvathi'.
>
>
> It is maasil veeNaiyaum. It is correct. maasu=kuRRam-imperfect, flaw
>
> maasu+il:no flaw, flawless.
>
> In thamizh negation can be made just by addition:
>
> Another Ex:
> maasu+aRRa some times used like
>
> "maasu aRu ponnE, valampuri muthE
> karumbE thEnE ----------silappadikaaram `
>
>
Remember that Ambigapathy song "Maasilla Nilave naM Kadhalai"
Nilavu has some flaws but not her face!
so Masilla Nilavee....
But Maasil VeeNaiyum is superb combination.
I think of Bharathiyar's "Nalladhor Veenai" for comparison
Oh! TamiL is great!! We deserve to be proud of it!!!
>anban
>
>Kathiravan
anbudan
Ramanan
snr...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
But "Moosu" meaning "ChunNambu" is news to me.
This is the first time I hear it.
May be someone will enlighten us on that.
NanRi pala.
a
anbudan
Ramanan
Kathiravan Krishnamurthi
>In article <930122061...@cec2.wustl.edu> s...@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>> I think many Tamil nettors must have heard of the
>Sanskrit zealots and temple worship and other daily rituals were
>(and are still) done in Skt. However these naayanmaar still are
>beloved of the Tamil people and the Bakthi lifestyle they started
>spread to other states in India (TN is/was first in doing things in
>India). However, the onslaught of Rationalism in this century had
>identified some of the later ultra junk works (such as Periya PuraaNam)
>of this movement to the Tamil people.
periya puraaNam talks about a pakthan-devotee even offering his
wife to the Lord. What a moral?
Periyaar criticized this kind of stuff along with kampan's
stuff.
Kathiravan
>Meenan Vishnu
Sundara Pandian
> In a previous article s...@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>
>> The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
>> Siddhantha. I have some questions about the meanings of
>> some of the Tamil words in this `veNpaa'.
I am not sure this is from Appar ThEvaaram. When I read
this verse again today, it looks as it was written by
Maanikka Vaasakar.
>> maasil veeNaiyum - What does it mean here ? What is
>> a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
>> Veena is a musical instrument.
>> I don't understand this comparison
>> here.. ) Does the poet mean that
>> the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
>> music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
>> Was Carnatic music developed in the
>> days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
>maasil = maasu + il (flaw + not).
>veeNai == a South Indian musical instrument
>Hence it means flawless veeNai music.
I also thought in these lines, but not sure of it. I think
he means `flawless Carnatic music' here....
>>
>> maalai madhiyamum - I know this means `evening' here.
>maalai == evening, garland
>madhi == moon, intellect
>So it means evening moon.
I agree with you. `madhiyam' here means `moon' as you are
saying..
>>
>> veesu thenRalum - I know this means `pleasant wind'.
>> This comparison is clearly a continuation
>> of `maalai madhiyamum', as we get cool
>> wind in the evenings in TN.
> veesu == blow, flow
> thenRal == breeze.
> So it means flowing breeze
`flowing' is implicit here for the English translation and so
`veesu thenRalum' may be translated shortly as `breeze'.
>> veenkiLa vEnilum - I know that `vEnil' also means `kaaRRu'.
>> Also `veenkiLa' = `veengu + iLa'. I think
>> this comparison is a _repitition_.
> No it is not.
> veenku == swell, full, overflow, abundant, luxuriant etc
> iLa + vEnil == young, active, + spring season (also vasantham)
> So it means luxuriant and lively spring season.
You are correct. Yes, I have also heard of the usage `vEnil
kaalam' by some people..
>> moosu vaNdaRaip poykai - I know that `poykai' means a `pond'.
>> What is `moosu vaNdaRai' ? I was lost
>> here...
> moosu == cuNNaampu (?), lime
> moosu vaNdaRai == lime room (?) (see below for explanation)
> poykai == pond
I differ from you here. I don't think this is a correct translation
for `moosu vaNdaRai poykai..'. I see that you have tried to translate
this part with Appar's history.. I thought in the lines, what if this
was written by Maanikaa Vaasagar and I tried to translate it in that
case and I have some ideas now..
I have not seen the meaning `chuNNaambu' for `moosu' and I do see
the question mark you have put for this meaning.. This word `moosu'
is from `moochchu' meaning `breath'. Hence a good meaning that one
can get for `moosu' is `lively'. I think you have interpreted
`vaNdaRai' as `a lime room' [ with a question mark, meaning unsure]
I think a good meaning for `vaNdaRai' is `vaNdu + thuRai' meaning
the `place of bees'. Hence `moosu vaNdaRai poykai' may be translated
as
moosu vaNdaRai poykai == moosu (lively) + vaNdu(bees) + thuRai (place)
+ poykai (pond)
== A pond, where lively bees wander in joy
> pOnRathu == it is like, identical to, same as
> It means "The lime room is (cool) like a pond."
See above..
>> pOnRathE = Like above..
>>
>> eesan endhan = Our Lord Shiva ( I think the word `eesan' for
>> Shiva is from the Sanskrit word `eeswaran' for
>> Shiva.. )
>>
>I think it should read eesan endhai.
A typo. Sorry..
> eesan == Lord, God, Siva
> endhai == (?)
endhai == em + thanthai ( our father )
I am sure you must have heard of the Bharati's song,
`endhaiyum thaayum makizhndhu kulaavi
irundhathum inNnNaadE! ..'
Here Bharati is referring to his forefathers and foremothers in India.
> iNai + adi == (?) + feet
`iNai' means `sErndha' [composed]. I have taken the meaning
`glorious' from the context..
> nizal + E == shadow, shelter + verily
It is `neezhalE', I think. But the meaning is the same..
>> iNaiyadi = his glorious feet..
>>
>> neezhalE = shelter.
>>
>>A translation (to be completed):
>>-------------------------------
>> "Like a pure Veena (?), like a pleasant evening, like a cool wind,
>> like fresh, pleasing wind, like a (??) pond is the shelter of the
>> glorious feet of our Lord Shiva. "
>>
>>- SP.
>>
>Like flaw-less veeNa (music)
>And Like the (pleasant) evening moon
>And Like flowing breeze
>And Like luxuriant and lively spring season
>And Even lime room is like a cool pond
>When I am at the shelter of my Lord's feet.
[ Meenan Vishnu's historical details on Appar deleted.. ]
> Meenan Vishnu
Revised translation :
-------------------
" Like flawless, pleasing Veena music, like a pleasant evening
moon, like a pleasant breeze, like luxuriant and lively spring
season, like a pond where the lively bees wander in joy, is the
Sundara Pandian
>>>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>>>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>>>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>>>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>
>I am quite sure that I learned in school (Hinduism is a compulsory
>subject in Sri Lanka for Hindu Tamils) that this song was sung my
>thiru-naavukku-arasu alias appar.
So it is by appar..
>As I indicated with a question mark, I do not know the meaning of
>moosu. In colloquial Tamil (used in Jaffna) this word means heavy and noisy
>breathing (especillay after a hard work or of an asthma patient).
This meaning for `moosu' is in colloquial Tamil in TN also..
> Your interpretion of vaNdaRai as vaNdu + thuRai does not convince me.
> Here are some wild guesses:
> moosu == lotus, (or any other water flower)
> vaNdu == beetles, bees
> aRai == attract, surround
> poykai == pond
> So the line 'moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRathE' could mean
> Like a pond where (beautiful) lotus flowers attracts (or are surrounded by)
> bees.
I think you have given the correct translation for `moosu vaNdaRai poykai'.
> I think MaaNikka-vaacakar is of later times.
He is after Appar and Sundarar, and his period is 9th century A.D.
> He is the person who sung Siva Puraanam.
> He was a minister to Pandiyan and spent all the money
> the King had given him for purchasing horses. Shiva performed
> a thiruvizaiyaadal (holy play :-) by converting all the foxes (nari)
> to horses (pari). This incident happened on aavaNi moolam and is still
> celebrated in India.
I have heard this in a ThEvaarap pathikam ( Maanikka Vaasakar ? ) also :
`ariyodu piramarkku aLavaRi onnaan
nariyaik kuthirai aakkiya nanmaiyum
aaNdukoNdu aruLa azhakuru thoruvadi
PaaNdian thanakku parimaa viRRu
eeNdu kanakam isaiyap peRaadhu
aaNdaan enkOn aruLvazhi iruppa..'
ari = Vishnu
piramar = Brahma
aLavaRi = size measurable
onnaan = stood up
ariyodu piramarkku aLavaRi onnaan = Siva, whose Viswarupa form was
unmeasurable by Vishnu and
Brahma in their fight who was
the superior.
nariyai = fox
kuthirai = horse
aakkiya = converted
nanmaiyum = the goodness
nariyaik kuthirai aakiya nanmaium = Siva, who converted the foxes
to horses in goodness.
> Prof. Selvakumar is of the opinion that this (rather childish) story
> might have a deeper meaning. He said the upward movement of Kundalini
> (signifying spiritual progress) is called pari. The downward movement
> of Kundalini (signifying spiritual decay ) is called nari. So Shiva
> converted nari to pari might mean that Shiva (in the form of a Guru)
> initiated Mannikkavasakar in the path of spirituality. The Siva
> puraNam 'namacci vaayaa vaazha, naathan thaaL vaazha
> imaip pozuthum en-nencil neenkaathan thaaz vaazha...'
> has some interesting lines.
Selva's interpretation is interesting and lately I found the ThEvaaram
`maadhar piRai' (appar) interesting, but I will write about it later..
>- SP.
> Meenan Vishnu
-SP.
Meenan Vishnu
>In a previous article mvi...@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) writes:
>
>> In a previous article s...@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>
>>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>>
>>> The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
>>> Siddhantha. I have some questions about the meanings of
>>> some of the Tamil words in this `veNpaa'.
>
> I am not sure this is from Appar ThEvaaram. When I read
> this verse again today, it looks as it was written by
> Maanikka Vaasakar.
I am quite sure that I learned in school (Hinduism is a compulsory
subject in Sri Lanka for Hindu Tamils) that this song was sung my
thiru-naavukku-arasu alias appar.
As I indicated with a question mark, I do not know the meaning of
moosu. In colloquial Tamil (used in Jaffna) this word means heavy and noisy
breathing (especillay after a hard work or of an asthma patient).
Your interpretion of vaNdaRai as vaNdu + thuRai does not convince me.
Here are some wild guesses:
moosu == lotus, (or any other water flower)
vaNdu == beetles, bees
aRai == attract, surround
poykai == pond
So the line 'moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRathE' could mean
Like a pond where (beautiful) lotus flowers attracts (or are surrounded by)
bees.
I think MaaNikka-vaacakar is of later times. He is the person who sung
Siva-puraaNam. He was a minister to Pandiyan and spent all the money
the King had given him for purchasing horses. Shiva performed
a thiruvizaiyaadal (holy play :-) by converting all the foxes (nari)
to horses (pari). This incident happened on aavaNi moolam and is still
celebrated in India.
Prof. Selvakumar is of the opinion that this (rather childish) story
might have a deeper meaning. He said the upward movement of Kundalini
(signifying spiritual progress) is called pari. The downward movement
of Kundalini (signifying spiritual decay ) is called nari. So Shiva
converted nari to pari might mean that Shiva (in the form of a Guru)
initiated Mannikkavasakar in the path of spirituality. The Siva
puraNam 'namacci vaayaa vaazha, naathan thaaL vaazha
imaip pozuthum en-nencil neenkaathan thaaz vaazha...'
has some interesting lines.
>- SP.
Meenan Vishnu
Meenan Vishnu
>In a previous article, mvi...@bcr3.waterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) writes:
>
>>>>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>>>>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>>>>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>>>>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>>
>
>>I am quite sure that I learned in school (Hinduism is a compulsory
>>subject in Sri Lanka for Hindu Tamils) that this song was sung my
>>thiru-naavukku-arasu alias appar.
>
> So it is by appar..
>
>>As I indicated with a question mark, I do not know the meaning of
>>moosu. In colloquial Tamil (used in Jaffna) this word means heavy and noisy
>>breathing (especillay after a hard work or of an asthma patient).
>
> This meaning for `moosu' is in colloquial Tamil in TN also..
>
>> Your interpretion of vaNdaRai as vaNdu + thuRai does not convince me.
>> Here are some wild guesses:
>
>> moosu == lotus, (or any other water flower)
>> vaNdu == beetles, bees
>> aRai == attract, surround
>> poykai == pond
>
>> So the line 'moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRathE' could mean
>> Like a pond where (beautiful) lotus flowers attracts (or are surrounded by)
>> bees.
>
> I think you have given the correct translation for `moosu vaNdaRai poykai'.
Here is one more try with higher probability of correctness
moosu == my pocket dictionary does not have this. But it has
moosal. One of the meaning given to moosal is moyththal.
That is presence (esp of insects, bees etc)
vaNdu == bee, beetle etc
aRai == one of the meaning given in the dictionary is noise (Osai)
So the line could be 'A pond where noisy bees gather' (Surprisingly
there is no mention of flowers).
> I have heard this in a ThEvaarap pathikam ( Maanikka Vaasakar ? ) also :
>
> `ariyodu piramarkku aLavaRi onnaan
> nariyaik kuthirai aakkiya nanmaiyum
> aaNdukoNdu aruLa azhakuru thoruvadi
> PaaNdian thanakku parimaa viRRu
> eeNdu kanakam isaiyap peRaadhu
> aaNdaan enkOn aruLvazhi iruppa..'
>
> ari = Vishnu
> piramar = Brahma
> aLavaRi = size measurable
> onnaan = stood up
I think the words 'oN' 'ol' etc means do, make, possible etc.
ollum, oNNum both means 'possible (to do)'
oNNathu means 'impossible (to do)'
I think VaLLuvar has a kuRaL 'ollum vaay olha...' (Wherever it is possible to
do, do! ...)
Here oNNaan means '(he who is impossible (to do)'
It was impossible for both Vishnu and Brahma to measure Shiva.
(This is the version of Shaivaites. The Vaishnavaites have quite a different
version of the set up. They say that this Shiva foolishly gives boons to
all tom dick and harry and ends up in trouble and their Vishnu has to
save him. One story says that shiva gave a boon to an asura (bad guy)
a boon by which if he placed his hand over any one (be it god, human, etc)
then he/she/it would die. As soon as the asura got this boon, he wanted
to test it on Shiva. Shiva ran for his life and came to Vishnu, who
cleaverly averted Shiva's destruction. Vishnu told the asura that Shiva
being powerless could not have given such a boon, and that if he was in doubt
he could see it by placing his hand over his head. The asura did
as was asked and guess what, the asura died and once again Shiva was
saved)
Reading these stories, I can't help but come to the conclusion that
at one time or other, our ancestors intelligence must have been no
more than that of a five year old child.
>
>ariyodu piramarkku aLavaRi onnaan = Siva, whose Viswarupa form was
> unmeasurable by Vishnu and
> Brahma in their fight who was
> the superior.
>
>
>-SP.
>
I think our ancestors enriched our language by developing bakthi
thoughts in our language more than in any other language. Tamil
is rivaling Hebrew in the quantity (as well as quality) of
devotional hymns (evan after massive number of losses in the hands
of Skt. zealots).
Our duty at the moment, as Sornam Sankara wrote in ACT, is to develop
our language in Scientific and Rational thoughts. Let Tamil have more
original works in these (as Bharathi requested).
Meenan Vishnu
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>In a previous article mvi...@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) writes:
>
>> In a previous article s...@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>
>>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>>
>>> The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
>>> Siddhantha. I have some questions about the meanings of
>>> some of the Tamil words in this `veNpaa'.
>
> I am not sure this is from Appar ThEvaaram. When I read
> this verse again today, it looks as it was written by
> Maanikka Vaasakar.
The song 'maasil vINaiym..' is certainly by appar perumaan.
>
>>> maasil veeNaiyum - What does it mean here ? What is
>>> a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
>>> Veena is a musical instrument.
>>> I don't understand this comparison
>>> here.. ) Does the poet mean that
>>> the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
>>> music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
>>> Was Carnatic music developed in the
>>> days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
>
>>maasil = maasu + il (flaw + not).
>>veeNai == a South Indian musical instrument
>>Hence it means flawless veeNai music.
>
> I also thought in these lines, but not sure of it. I think
> he means `flawless Carnatic music' here....
Meenan's translation is quite correct. maasu + il means
'kuRRam illaatha'. Please note the popular names
'maasilaamaNi' ( meaning 'flawlwess gem'). My mother used to
say that 'A.M. storil paruppu vaanginaa maasu maru irukkaathu'
( = if you buy 'paruppu' in A.M. Store, it will be without
any adulteration and without stones etc..).
As Ramanan says in a post 'maasilaa nilavE..' is another
popular song; 'maasaRu ponnE..' is a very popular thaalaattu vari.
However, there is a hidden meaning for 'maasil vINai' which is
'spine'.
>
> [ some deleted]
>>> moosu vaNdaRaip poykai - I know that `poykai' means a `pond'.
>>> What is `moosu vaNdaRai' ? I was lost
>>> here...
>
>> moosu == cuNNaampu (?), lime
>> moosu vaNdaRai == lime room (?) (see below for explanation)
>> poykai == pond
>
> I differ from you here. I don't think this is a correct translation
> for `moosu vaNdaRai poykai..'. I see that you have tried to translate
> this part with Appar's history.. I thought in the lines, what if this
> was written by Maanikaa Vaasagar and I tried to translate it in that
> case and I have some ideas now..
>
> I have not seen the meaning `chuNNaambu' for `moosu' and I do see
> the question mark you have put for this meaning.. This word `moosu'
> is from `moochchu' meaning `breath'. Hence a good meaning that one
> can get for `moosu' is `lively'. I think you have interpreted
> `vaNdaRai' as `a lime room' [ with a question mark, meaning unsure]
> I think a good meaning for `vaNdaRai' is `vaNdu + thuRai' meaning
> the `place of bees'. Hence `moosu vaNdaRai poykai' may be translated
> as
>
> moosu vaNdaRai poykai == moosu (lively) + vaNdu(bees) + thuRai (place)
> + poykai (pond)
> == A pond, where lively bees wander in joy
Sundara Pandian's meaning as above is not correct; see below.
>
>> pOnRathu == it is like, identical to, same as
>
>> It means "The lime room is (cool) like a pond."
Well, the words 'mUsu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRathE' seems to
have been the most difficult line. Let me explain a bit.
The word 'mUsu' comes from the verb 'mUsal' or 'mUsuthal'.
mUsal means 'saathal' (= to die), 'moyththal' ( = to surround
like bees), 'Usi(p)pOthal' ( the snacks becoming unfit to
eat ; remeber the vadai giving rise to 'webs' after the 'due
date'..).
Thus I would say the prime meaning of 'mUsu' or 'moosu' is
'death-giving'. ( moosuthal for 'uruNdai or vadai' also means
the stuff bhas become 'dead' and hence unfit to eat)
vaNdaRai means 'chuNNambu aRai' because
one of the meanings of 'vaNdu' is 'conch shell' ( = sangu).
( the semantic root for vaNdu = sangu appears to be the
'hard' shell; 'vaN' means hard ). Other meanings such as
'a death cell filled with posionous stinging 'vaNdu' is
also possible. But the traditional meaning of 'chuNNaambu
kaLavaai' can not be discounted.
>
>
>>Like flaw-less veeNa (music)
>>And Like the (pleasant) evening moon
>>And Like flowing breeze
>>And Like luxuriant and lively spring season
>>And Even lime room is like a cool pond
>>When I am at the shelter of my Lord's feet.
>
> [ Meenan Vishnu's historical details on Appar deleted.. ]
>
>> Meenan Vishnu
>
> [ revised meaning of SP deleted ]
>
The translation given by Meenan Vishnu is quite accurate.
anbudan
-Selva
P.S. If we substitute 'God' for 'Isan' this song can be applicable to
any religion. It is a very beautiful song ! This was a
prayer song in Raja Muthiah high School in Raja Annamalai Puram
near Adyar in Madras, when I studied there; I don't know whether it is
still a prayer song there..
snr...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
>In article <930123001...@cec2.wustl.edu> s...@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>In a previous article mvi...@bcr3.uwaterloo.ca (Meenan Vishnu) writes:
>>
>>> In a previous article s...@cec2.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>
>>>> `maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
>>>> veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
>>>> moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
>>>> eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
>>>>
>>>> The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
>>>> Siddhantha. I have some questions about the meanings of
>>>> some of the Tamil words in this `veNpaa'.
>>
>>
>
> The song 'maasil vINaiym..' is certainly by appar perumaan.
>
>>
>>>> maasil veeNaiyum - What does it mean here ? What is
>>>> a `maasil veeNai' ? ( I know that
>>>> Veena is a musical instrument.
>>>> I don't understand this comparison
>>>> here.. ) Does the poet mean that
>>>> the shelter is pleasant like Carnatic
>>>> music in Veena without `abaswaram' ?
>>>> Was Carnatic music developed in the
>>>> days of Appar and Sundarar.. ?
>>
>>>maasil = maasu + il (flaw + not).
>>>veeNai == a South Indian musical instrument
>>>Hence it means flawless veeNai music.
>>
Thanks for this explanation. However, is "vaNdu" used for
sangu in the literature? What does the dictionaries say?
May be "moosu vaNdu" is a pure Tamil word for visha vaNdu
as you are suggesting by "poisonous stinging vaNdu".
In any case, the general meaning of "moosu vaNdaRai" is
becoming clear now.
>>>Like flaw-less veeNa (music)
>>>And Like the (pleasant) evening moon
>>>And Like flowing breeze
>>>And Like luxuriant and lively spring season
>>>And Even lime room is like a cool pond
>>>When I am at the shelter of my Lord's feet.
>>
>> [ Meenan Vishnu's historical details on Appar deleted.. ]
>>
>>> Meenan Vishnu
>>
>> [ revised meaning of SP deleted ]
>>
>
> The translation given by Meenan Vishnu is quite accurate.
>
> anbudan
> -Selva
>
I think "the sheltor of Lord's feet is like the cool (lime room like)
pond" is the right meaning.
anban
Ramanan
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
>
> Thanks for this explanation. However, is "vaNdu" used for
> sangu in the literature? What does the dictionaries say?
The meaning of 'sangu' ( shell) for 'vaNdu' _was_ from Kazhaga
thamizh agaraathi. The semantic root of 'vaN' = 'hard' is my
suggestion. I am not aware of any literary use of 'vaNdu' = sangu
elsewhere but it is my guess that if one searches one can find.
I am aware of another place in ThEvaaram where 'vaNdaRai' is
used by ThiruNYaanasambandar. This is because 'vaNdaRai' has
an inner spiritual meaning. Many words like 'maalai', 'muththu
maalai', kongai, aravam, karumbu, vINai .. etc. have hidden
meanings and there is no point in knowing the meanings without
_realizing_ what is said - the wise say...
For example 'nariyai pari aakkiya kathai' ( = the story of
transforming the jackals into horses; one of the playful
deeds {thiruviLaiyaadal} of Siva - this is said to have
been played for MaaNikka vaasagar). There is a hidden meaning
here. The 'nari' signifies the vital force flowing DOWN ( down
means towards the normal sexual organ).
The 'pari' ( = horse) signifies the vital force flowing
UP ( towards the head - sahasradaLam also called poo )
Thus we also have another meaning for the word 'pari_baashai'
( code language ) :)
Let me quote an appar thEvaaram ( Thirunaavukkarasar)
sung in ThiruvaarUr ( paN ( raagam): kaanthaaram);
appar is said to have lived before MaaNikkavaasagar:
nariyai kuthirai seyvaanum
naragarai thEvu seyvaanum
viratham koNdaada vallaanum
vichchinRi naaRu seyvaanum
murasathirn(dh) thaanai munnOda
munpaNin(dh) anbargaL Eththa
aravarai saaththi ninRaanum
aarUr amarntha ammaanE
Where from the first line you can see that 'nariyai kuthirai
seyvaanum' means one who makes a jackal into a horse. if you
take this with the 'puraana' story then MaaNikkavaasagar
is _earlier_ than thirunaavukkarasar ( appar) [ I hope
Sundara PaaNdian reads this ! ] Appar is said to have
lived in 6-7th century A.D.
I should also point out that there are many more places
where 'nari-pari' is used. There is another song 'naripuri kaadarangaa.."
In any case, there is a very elaborate symbolism in
Tamil religious songs ( Saivam and Vaishnavam) which
is extremely rich and deeply thought-provoking, but
there is not much point in dwelling on these without
real actual inner flowering.
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
> [ some deleted]
>As I indicated with a question mark, I do not know the meaning of
>moosu. In colloquial Tamil (used in Jaffna) this word means heavy and noisy
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>breathing (especillay after a hard work or of an asthma patient).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In Tamil Nadu too, moosu refers to the 'heavy and noisy breathing'.
The expression 'moosu moosu enRu vElai seykiRaan' or 'uzhaikkiRaan'
refers to the hard work.
> [ deleted some]
>Meenan Vishnu
>
- Selva
snr...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
The inner meanings you highlight in each case are extremely
interesting and thought provoking. Please continue to do this.
Speaking of vaNdu, I am reminded of a segment from the movie
" Aadhi Parasakthi " about Kumara Gurubarar.
The song in that segment goes like this:
"vaNdaar kuzhaRkanni malyathuvasan peRRa
maamadhurai iLanguyilee varugavee
kaNdaar tham kaNNukkum kaNaar tham nenjukkum
kaLippahum vaLamayilee varugavee"
Is this song from "Meenakshi piLLaithamizh"?
I liked an other segment from this movie about a
meenavan (Surulirajan acted). Good movie.
That reminds me of an other song, we used to sing as prayer
song in my elementary school, which is given below:
"kallarkkum kaRRavarkkum kaLipparulum kaLippee
kaaNaarkkum kaNdavarkkum kaNNaLikkum kaNNee
vallarkkum maattaarkkum varamaLikkum varamee
- - - - - - - - - -"
I don't remember the rest of it. Can some tell me where
this song is from?
Thanks in advance.
anbudan
Ramanan
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
Bala SWAMINATHAN
>>
>
>I think our ancestors enriched our language by developing bakthi
>thoughts in our language more than in any other language. Tamil
>is rivaling Hebrew in the quantity (as well as quality) of
>devotional hymns (evan after massive number of losses in the hands
>of Skt. zealots).
>
>Our duty at the moment, as Sornam Sankara wrote in ACT, is to develop
>our language in Scientific and Rational thoughts. Let Tamil have more
>original works in these (as Bharathi requested).
>
>Meenan Vishnu
Couldn't agree more. The series of articles posted at that time were quite
heavy in contents. I was hoping that that would trigger some healthy discussion
in the valai. Due to some turn of events, like the inception of SCT, the
discussions never took place.
Can somebody post those articles in parts?
Thanks
S_Bala
C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering
I agree with Bala. There was quite a bit of discussion on technical
Tamil. It would be wonderful if some _constructive_ thoughts are
discussed in the valai. I think it would also be great if our
valaiNYars consider this valai as an 'avai' = august body or forum
( and since all the persons who participate in the valai
ARE educated persons, it would be great if we care for
our avai_nadaththai. There can be fierce and spirited
arguments; one-upman ship can be played; satirizing and
ridiculing can be there; even insulting statements can
be there if felt necessary; BUT THE WORDS USED SHOULD BE
PARLIMENTARY; There is nothing gained except earning
a disrepute in using unfit ( foul) language.
If some people who don't care for these
avai_nadaththai principles and goals, there is nothing
anybody can do. We can only hope that our
fellow-valaiNYars will contribute constructive thoughts
even if criticizing others view-points.)
Sorry for the long digression. The 'aRiviyal thanizh' or what
S. Sankarapandi talked as 'naankaam thamizh' will be a valuable
contribution. It can be mildly funful too; for example:
I used to joke that the Tamil word for 'car or
automobile' is actually 'kaar' ! The reason is
in olden days cars were invariably in black in
colour and even there is a joke attributed to
Ford advertisement that 'Ford can give you any
color as long as it is black' and apparently the
General Motors were the the first to introduce
colours other than balck to gain market share..
Thus since in Tamil 'kaar' means 'black'
( a lot of literary citations can be given :) )
the car is called a 'kaar' in Tamil :)
If you ask my daughter she will say 'thaan_undhu'
for 'car'. The Tamil word 'thaanundhu' is an apt
word for car ( historically the horseless CARriage
became automobile meaning which pulls by itself
as car). A sports model can be called 'magizhundhu'
A van can be called 'siRRundhu' ( to contrast and
be related to pErundu). The Indian Lorry is
already called 'sumai_undhu'. I had earlier
suggested an _additional_ word ( not as a replacement)
for airplane as 'vaLi_undhu' since 'vaLi' means
'kaaRRu'. nIrundhu can be used as generic word for
water-borne vehicle. The engine cylinder is 'undhu_aRai'
The scooter can be called a uthai_undhu :)
( similar to the bicycle being called mithi_vaNdi)
Since the motor-bike looks more like bicycle
it can be called mithi_undhu :)
If our fellow-Tamils use enthusiastically use
these or other suitable words we can make
rapid strides in realizing 'aRiviyal Thamizh'
Hope this sparks some _fruitful_ discussion on these. Thanks to
Vishnu and Bala.
anbudan
- Selva
dlotu...@gmail.com
`maasil veeNaiyum maalai madhiyamum
veesu thenRalum veenkiLa vEnilum
moosu vaNdaRai poykaiyum pOnRadhE
eesan endhai iNaiydai neezhalE. '
The poet ( Appar ? ) talks here about how pleasant
is the shelter of the feet of Lord Shiva in Saiva
Siddhantha.
like the pleasant full moon (see, sight)
like the cool breeze to the body
like the spring season (fruits to taste, flowers to see)
like the pond with cool water covered with scented flowers covered by bees (smell)
Shiva's lotus feet gives happiness to all my senses.
(this he sang when he was put chunnambu kalavai)
