Kshatriyas Superior to Brahmins -- EXHIBIT C
Kulbir Singh
: In article <20010517234955...@ng-fp1.aol.com>, KNaray6684 says...
:>
:>>From: "M. Ranjit Mathews" ranjit....@MailAndNews.com
:>
:>>About which year did Kshatriya kings give their knowledge to Brahmins? What
:>>happened to Kshatriya kings' knowledge after they gave their knowledge to
:>>Brahmins? Megastenes, writing 2300 years ago, mentioned Brahmins as
:>>possessing
:>>and disseminating knowledge; he didn't seem to notice any Kshatriya kings
:>>with
:>>knowledge.
:>
:>Actually, the Upanishads are replete with conversations between kings and
:>brahmins. King Janaka, the father of Sita was known to be a bhrahmarshi. And in
:>his court, there were female Vedantins among them Maitreyi. When Yajnavalkya
:>eneters his court and there follows an argument in the court in which
:>Yajnavalkya argues every other out. Simialrly, there were instances in whcih
:>the brahmins received the instruction on Self and the Brahman from the kings.
:>But those are the kings who were brahminical by tradition. I don't think that
:>today's Kshatriaya elements can claim any kind of lineage to those kings.
:>Today's kshatriya elements of North India are a bunch of cowards. The only
:>thing that they lack, before we call them the muslims, is circumcision. Once we
:>have that in place, the kshatriya element is no different from the inferior
:>Pakistani.
: 2300 years ago, Megasthenes may have found Brahmins disseminating what little
: they knew. Even today, you have Brahmins continuing their two bit "panda"
: business, attempting to attract any followers they can and telling them what
: little they can. For Brahmins the knowledge given to them by Kshatriyas has
: long become a business which fortunately has caused greater and greater loss of
: any real knowledge in their caste, until their rites and rituals can be termed
: quite "UNHINDU" by anyone knowing the Vedas.
: But rest assured that after Megasthenes, it was still the Kshatriyas who
: possessed the knowledge of the Brahma. They were just termed "Buddhists." Just
: go and check the memoirs of Hieun Tsang and you'll find out that at this point
: in Bharatiya history, most of the philosophers had crossed over to the Buddhist
: side. This was due to Buddha having revived ancient knowledge under the new
: fold of Buddhism because no Brahmin could even explain the unity of Shiva and
: Shakti to him.
: Thus it has always been the Kshatriyas who have revived ancient knowledge,
: regardless of whether the Brahmins accepted it as Hinduism or as another heretic
: religion. The fact remains that every Brahmin was defeated by a Buddhist called
: Hiuen Tsang in full view of the court of Harshavardhana. Such was the great
: knowledge of the Vedic Hindu Brahmins! Couldn't answer any of Buddha's queries,
: couldn't answer Hiuen Tsang's queries, but quite like KNarayanan, always
: attempted to put the blame on Kshatriyas. They always seem to find shortcomings
: in Kshatriyas and end up quite short when they confront them!
The current reality is quite different from what may
have happened in the past. The Kshatriyas as a group
don't have much power in the domain of knowledge
and education anymore. This can be easily verified
by looking at the faculty list of any school of higher
learning in India. The Kshatriyas don't enjoy
any real advantage in the contemporary life in India.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
M. Ranjit Mathews
> ksi...@ml.com wrote:
> The current reality is quite different from what may
> have happened in the past. The Kshatriyas as a group
> don't have much power in the domain of knowledge
> and education anymore.
When did Kshatriyas lose their power in the domains of knowledge and education?
ksi...@ml.com
says...
>
>Kulbir Singh <kbh...@sfu.ca> wrote in message news:<9epni6$3qb$3...@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
>> ksi...@ml.com wrote:
>
>> The current reality is quite different from what may
>> have happened in the past. The Kshatriyas as a group
>> don't have much power in the domain of knowledge
>> and education anymore.
>
>When did Kshatriyas lose their power in the domains of knowledge and education?
With the demise of Buddhism engineered by the Hindu Brahmins such as
Shankaracharya.
>> This can be easily verified
>> by looking at the faculty list of any school of higher
>> learning in India. The Kshatriyas don't enjoy
>> any real advantage in the contemporary life in India.
They lost most of their political power when the Brahmins became successful in
stabbing them in the back, circa 800 AD or so when an isolated Harshavardhana
was murdered by rebels led by Brahmins -- he had formerly exiled about 500
Brahmins for a failed conspiracy to assasinate him following their defeat at the
hands of Hieun Tsang who studied at Nalanda. The T'ang dynasty of China
fortunately killed off all the rebels, but the masterless land was eventually
distributed by Brahmins to rulers of their choice despite the relatives of
Harshavardhana continuing to rule in the Magadhan region. This is apparent as
historians note that the populace came under the impression that the solar
dynasty had departed from this world.
So from the 800AD-1300AD we see the rise of the Hun clans as Rajputs in the
northwest advancing towards the north-east using the greedy Hindu Brahmin and
their holy cow Kamadhenu as their entry ticket. The declared intention of the
Rajputs and the Brahmins during the birth described in the Puranas was to
destroy the ancient Kshatriyas.
But not surprisingly Buddhism managed to survive in the north-east for a while
longer while the newly created Rajput dynasties attempted to consolidate the
region amongst themselves and the ancient Kshatriyas retained control over the
northeast. Failure to take the northeast or expand to the south led to the
demise of Rajput power, as the Muslims pressed them from the northwest while the
Magadhan region prevented their advancement towards the northeast.
The Muslims managed to take over Gujarat, financed their campaigns by the wealth
looted from the Gujjus and successfully defeated the smaller kingdoms finally
managing to consolidate their power in central UP.
So it can be safely said that owing to that singular disintegration caused by
Brahmin conspiracy against the Harshavardhana empire, Bharat was no more! Since
then India has largely been invaded by successive waves of foreigners quite
successfully penetrating the Brahmin defenses and anyone else who managed to
gain a foothold in the north. First it was the Muslims against the Rajputs,
then the Sikhs and Marathas vs the Muslims, then it was the British against the
Muslims and then of course the Brahmins against the rest as Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru
was left in control by the abdicating Brits!
But let us not forget, that now it is Laloo Yadav against all the Brahmins!
ksi...@ml.com
>
>ksi...@ml.com wrote:
>The current reality is quite different from what may
>have happened in the past. The Kshatriyas as a group
>don't have much power in the domain of knowledge
>and education anymore. This can be easily verified
>by looking at the faculty list of any school of higher
>learning in India. The Kshatriyas don't enjoy
>any real advantage in the contemporary life in India.
The current reality is no different from the past. Kshatriyas were never geeky
enough to be the faculty in universities. They were warriors and had a lot of
meditative experience, thus they were supreme in what are called "mystical
sciences." They weren't reciting all the shashtra by heart even then, that was
the geek caste's job!
Having power in the domain of knowledge is different from being school teachers
or faculty. Kshatriyas were those who defined the ancient knowledge and the
Brahmins were allowed to spread it, the Kshatriyas themselves didn't go and
start teaching little kids, they had better things to do. Thus all the confused
kids were taught the Upanisads by geeks who had no experience in the subject
itself.
Naturally, after the demise of Bharat and the birth of India, leadership in all
fields became established in the west and thus the Brahmins have become great
followers of the western leaders who have been leading them around by the cow's
noose and nose ever since. Since then they have been spreading the knowledge
which they have acquired from the west quite faithfully I may add. But with the
BJP has come the time again, the time when they will attempt to stab the western
society from which they have learned everything in the back to assert their own
supremacy and attempt to project a hodge podge identity of the "modern
traditionalist." It is the nature of the "sattva" mentality!
P.G.Gopal
course Rabri Devi and himself). Bihar is in this woebegone state because of the Yadavs
and other low lives of his ilk infest Bihar.
Kulbir Singh
: So from the 800AD-1300AD we see the rise of the Hun clans as Rajputs in the
: northwest advancing towards the north-east using the greedy Hindu Brahmin and
: their holy cow Kamadhenu as their entry ticket. The declared intention of the
: Rajputs and the Brahmins during the birth described in the Puranas was to
: destroy the ancient Kshatriyas.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It seems that destroying each other has been an
integral part of the people's psyche from
that region since ancient times. The current
Indian politics is just a continuation of the
age old traditions. However, it goes to the
credit of the Indian people that despite
politics of mutual destruction -- India has
gained so much international prestige for
its achievements and moral leadership.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: But not surprisingly Buddhism managed to survive in the north-east for a while
Kulbir Singh
: So it can be safely said that owing to that singular disintegration caused by
: Brahmin conspiracy against the Harshavardhana empire, Bharat was no more!
It is hard for finite to grasp the infinite. The laws
of karma, birth, death and rebirth may appear to be
treacherous to our mediocre minds but they do have
a divine sanction if we believe the scriptures.
If the death of Bharat gave birth to foreign
invasions resulting in present day India --
we may presume that India would also
take rebirth in some other form after its
demise. In case this does happen -- we should
pray that we don't end up with the same
tattered Indian soul of Gandhi and Nehru
soaked in deceit and injustices which we
discarded after so much suffering.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Since then India has largely been invaded by successive waves of
Arindam Banerjee
> Laloo Yadav is not against only the Brahmins he is also against all Biharis(except of
> course Rabri Devi and himself). Bihar is in this woebegone state because of the Yadavs
> and other low lives of his ilk infest Bihar.
What woebegone state? Biharis don't want their Lalloos lose in
political
battles. The joy they get, to see their Lalloos loose in high places
(thereby
showing contempt for the foul and useless Indian political system
which
can never deliver good results and needs total upheaval) compensates
adequately for whatever negative impressions outsiders may get.
I hold Lalloo in high esteem, as he is the father of many children
whom he
has brought up very well, showing great family values. What the
world needs is more Lalloos and Rabris, so as to put such population
issues
that would force interest in the new ideas presented in my book "To
the Stars!"
freely available for reading at:
www.users.bigpond.com/adda1234/index.htm
Arindam Banerjee.
zapperzee
> >When did Kshatriyas lose their power in the domains of knowledge and education?
>
> With the demise of Buddhism engineered by the Hindu Brahmins such as
> Shankaracharya.
>
> >> This can be easily verified
> >> by looking at the faculty list of any school of higher
> >> learning in India. The Kshatriyas don't enjoy
> >> any real advantage in the contemporary life in India.
>
> They lost most of their political power when the Brahmins became successful in
> stabbing them in the back, circa 800 AD or so when an isolated Harshavardhana
> was murdered by rebels led by Brahmins -- he had formerly exiled about 500
> Brahmins for a failed conspiracy to assasinate him following their defeat at the
Kshatriyas became Buddhists. They willingly(?) embraced a non-violent
way of life. What the brahmins did may have (au contraire) revitalized
the defence mechanism and helped defer, if not prevent, the marauds
from the west.
ksi...@ml.com
That is a ridiculous assertion that Buddhists cannot defend themselves. For
your information the two most prominent Kshatriyas who defended India before the
Brahmins stabbed them in the back were Buddhists. One was called
Harshavardhana, the other was called Baladitya. The Kshatriya prince of the
Bihar region responsible for defeating the Hun seige laid to Patna was himself a
Buddhist.
I don't think I have to go to China or Japan as examples. I think it is quite
obvious that Brahmins would use any and all available excuses to stab people in
the back to usurp power! Any defense mechanism initiated by inculcating foreign
invaders in Hinduism can barely be called a "defense mechanism!" It is more
like selling out, which is common to the Brahmin gene pool, Vajpayee included!
ksi...@ml.com
As a matter of fact, the mere thought of that fool Shankracharya restoring
Hinduism should be rephrased to Shankracharya spreading Brahmin stupidity after
the Brahmins being utterly defeated by Buddhists! Just because the Kshatriyas
explained the Vedas to the Brahmins once doesn't mean that the Brahmins retained
the understanding at a later time. And books without understanding are worth as
much as the paper they are written on.
All notions of Brahma have always been explained foremost and most ably by the
Kshatriyas of Bharata including Gautama Buddha and always distorted for the sake
of business money-making purposes by Hindu Brahmins. Wherever the Kshatriyas
go, that becomes Hinduism! Therefore if the Kshatriyas adopted Buddhism, that
means that it was the real Hinduism and the version of the Brahmins was just
their business sign board! That is why Buddhism of Tibet and China and Japan
has the real meaning of the worship methods vs the hollow stupidity common to
the mistaken Brahmin rituals which they themselves do not understand. The
Buddhist worship rituals are actually close to the tantra texts than are the
Hindu rituals commonly performed by Brahmins today.
The Hindu rituals of today are simply stupidity encouraged to maintain the
Brahmin income. Rest assured there is nothing of great value even in the words
of your greatest Brahmins such as Shankaracharya or Dayananda Sarasvati etc. Go
and follow their words and waste your life! Good riddance to fools!
ksi...@ml.com
The real Siddhartha Gautama Buddha was a siddha Hindu. He had questioned the
most prominent Brahmins in the region and was dissatisified with their
understanding of Shiva and Shakti. So he set out and meditated for many years
and he finally received enlightenment, which in the classical Hindu tradition is
termed siddhi. He decided to return to society to restore the meditative
knowledge of Hinduism which had been lost due to Brahmin Business Incorporated.
And when he returned he deemed Shaivism as the most perfect crystal of a
religion, thus he was hardly an anti-traditionalist.
As the slimy Hindu Brahmin was more interested in making money from fools than
telling them about the meditation performed by ancient Kshatriyas, within
Hinduism then the knowledge or emphasis on meditation was lost. This is also
the case today after Shankaracharya's restoration of "Hinduism." That it is
significant to all Hindu rituals is obvious from even a cursory glance of the
Upanisads. But the money grubbing Hindu Brahmins never had the time to read the
Upanisads, as they were too busy chanting all the samhitas at the top of their
lungs at the nearest yagna thrown by some wealthy fool who couldn't offer a
single oblation correctly for his life and most Brahmins wouldn't be able to
even tell him how to do it correctly.
That all Hindu rituals or agamic texts come from Shiva and Shakti is highly
significant which the average Hindu does not know thanks to Brahmin Business
Incorporated. For even if he knew, how can the slimy, money-grubbing,
back-stabbing Hindu Brahmin tell his client that what he is doing in terms of
rituals has no effect without appropriate meditative knowledge which could take
years. Can a slimy, money-grubbing, back-stabbing Hindu Brahmin wait that long
to make a few bucks? We don't think so.
Therefore those who were intelligent or honest amongst the Brahmins or can we
term them even learned, quickly saw the truth in Buddha's message. Buddha being
a traditionalist decided to visit Kashi. And when the Brahmins of Kashi were
defeated, Buddha is not deemed a heretic by them. He is termed the new
"tathagata" or the law-giver. This is normal and perfectly expected for Hindu
rituals have always come from Shiva and Shakti schools, from those who were
siddha and could use the meditative knowledge acquired to affect nature. For
this reason, most of the tantrics and yogic types were quite enthusiastic
Buddhists -- Kshatriyas, Brahmins, Vaishya, Sudras all included. So what did we
have left amongst those who did not believe in Buddha ?
The likes of Mihiragula, the great Hindu Hun, who used to throw elephants off a
cliff in the name of Shaivism! Was he a siddha ? We don't think so, because he
went crying back home to Kashmir after Yasodhara (?), a Kshatriya of Nalanda
came back to kick his butt when he thought he had conquered Patna. Thanks to
the Hun Mihiragula's mommy-dearest's intervention, Yasodhara spared his life and
allowed him to return to Kashmir. But the effects of the teaching of the
remaining Hindu (non-Buddhist) Brahmins should be quite apparent. I am sure
that quite a few Upanisads were dedicated to this character who detailed the
meditative experience of throwing elephants off of cliffs and the greatness of
the great mother goddess who if she be your own mother could save you from being
killed by damn Buddhists!
BUT THEN IF SO MANY HINDUS BECAME BUDDHISTS OR CAME TO AGREE WITH BUDDHA'S
MEDITATIVE POINT OF VIEW, WHO DREW THE LINE BETWEEN BUDDHISTS AND HINDUS ?
PARTICULARLY WHEN THE BUDDHISTS THEMSELVES DID NOT REJECT ANCIENT HINDUISM!
Yes, you guessed it, the Bhangi Brahmin Business Incorporated decided that the
Buddhist monkhood became a threat to their money-grubbing business. It even
threatened to replace them as the Brahmins of Bharat. And well, all those silly
ignorant Brahmins such as Shankaracharya who had to have a Shudra teach him the
basics of yoga, couldn't have that happen! So what to do ? Well, let's see the
Buddhists have found favor with all the intelligent kings, so how about creating
a few stupid kings! HOW ABOUT STABBING THE EXISTING KINGS IN THE BACK AND
MAKING NEW HINDU KINGS OUT OF THE INVADERS IN THE NAME OF NATIONALISM! WE WILL
SAVE THE HINDUS FROM FOREIGNERS BY HAVING THEM RULED BY FOREIGNERS AND GETTING
RID OF THE BUDDHIST MONKS DAMN IT!
FACT: BUDDHA WAS THE LAST TATHAGATA OF HINDUISM WHO UNDERSTOOD THE CLASSICAL
NOTIONS OF THE HINDU BRAHMA! THOSE HINDU BRAHMINS WHO KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT
ANYTHING QUICKLY BECAME BUDDHISTS AS FOR THE INTELLIGENT A MERE HINT IS ENOUGH!
THE IDIOTS WHO REMAINED DECIDED TO STAB BUDDHA IN THE BACK WITH THE HELP OF
FOREIGNERS TO SAVE THEIR MONEY-MAKING BUSINESS. AND THAT IS THE UNDENIABLE
TRUTH!
Kulbir Singh
: Laloo Yadav is not against only the Brahmins he is also against all Biharis(except of
: course Rabri Devi and himself). Bihar is in this woebegone state because of the Yadavs
: and other low lives of his ilk infest Bihar.
Is it OK to single out Laloo just because he is a
lower-caste politician? What is mentioned here
can be said about any Indian politician.
If Bihar is woebegone because of Yadavs, what
is India woebegone due to?
regards,
Kulbir Singh
Kulbir Singh
: "P.G.Gopal" <pgg...@computer.net> wrote in message news:<3B15000F...@computer.net>...
Laloo has a lot of courage. There are very few
politicians who can say what they actually mean.
When Laloo says: 'Maaro Saale Brahmin Ko' he
actually means it.
In the context of Indian society -- where people
often make fraudulent claims of intellectual
prowess, wealth etc. -- the brutal honesty
displayed by Lalooo in his dealings with
the public and the press comes across as a
breeze of fresh air. Laloo is quite
non-conformist. While most of the people
try to impress others with their intelligence,
knowledge (real or imaginary) and
sophistication -- Laloo takes pride in his
rustic manners, crude jokes and somewhat
uncouth demeanor.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: www.users.bigpond.com/adda1234/index.htm
: Arindam Banerjee.
bholu
What a genius.
P.G.Gopal
some kind of direct connection with my brain ? I am singling out Laloo, because he is the
lowest of the low lives(and I do not mean low caste ), even lower than
Jayalalitha (and she is a Brahmin), and that is saying a lot. India is woebegone because of
the likes of Laloo and Jayalalitha and because of assorted Sardarjis and assorted Muslims
and assorted Hindus and assorted Christians who would very much prefer to destroy rather
than build.
Rgds, Gopal
Kulbir Singh
: Why do you think I am singling out Laloo becaause he is a low caste politician ? Do have
: some kind of direct connection with my brain ? I am singling out Laloo, because he is the
: lowest of the low lives(and I do not mean low caste ), even lower than
: Jayalalitha (and she is a Brahmin), and that is saying a lot.
: India is woebegone because of
: the likes of Laloo and Jayalalitha and because of assorted Sardarjis and assorted Muslims
: and assorted Hindus and assorted Christians who would very much prefer to destroy rather
: than build.
But let us not forget that Laloo has ruled
his state for a relatively short time. So his
role in the misfortunes of Bihar and India
can't be significant.
Also let us not lose sight of the fact
that the government apparatus/machinery
has never been in the hands of assorted
Sikhs, Muslims, Christians who are more
interested in destroying rather than
building. Almost all the state power is
in the hands of IAS/IPS officers and
judges who according to several surveys
posted on the net don't belong to this
assorted disgruntled group. It looks
like our diagnosis is fundamentally
flawed.
The propensity for flawed, dishonest and
deceitful diagnosis among the ruling class
due to malice and prejudice is much more
harmful than the lack of enthusiasm among
assorted Sikhs, Muslims and Christians to
build. And interestingly Laloos and
Jayalalithas have nothing to do with
misdiagnosis.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Rgds, Gopal
Kulbir Singh
: In short he is an idiot and doesn't try to hide it.
: What a genius.
An honest straight-talking idiot is much
less harmful than a slick idiot with fraudulent
scholarly claims.
You go to an Indian government office -- the
more corrupt the official -- the more
sophisticated and polished he would appear.
Gandhiji was writing volumes and volumes about
morality and sin in lofty language of
self-righteousness while being abusive to his
family and his political opponents. The
language of a person isn't an accurate
measure of his/her real motives and
intentions.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
bholu
realize this simple truth.
Kulbir Singh
: I would take a smart honest guy anyday to an idiot of any ilk. They do
: a lot better. Hope others realize this simple truth.
And I hope that you are sure you want to
look for a smart honest guy in South Asia and
not somewhere in Andromeda galaxy.
For last several years -- almost everyday
there is a report in some Indian newspaper
quoting unnamed government officials
about Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence
agency's subversive activities in India.
Also a couple of days ago -- India's
Interior Minister -- the minister incharge
of internal security, Mr. Advani -- expressed
his confidence about having peaceful, friendly
relations with Pakistan.
Now please don't rush to a hasty judgement.
I am not expecting any answer from you.
Think carefully about what I have written
above and ask yourself, "Are Indian people
a bunch of stupid morons who can be fooled
year after year till eternity?"
I believe you will feel a great sense of
relief and satisfaction after you find an
answer to this question.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh wrote:
Arindam Banerjee
Why do you think so? I do not know about his courage,
but I'll allow he is a successful buffoon. And he
is certainly potent, which is very good.
>There are very few
> politicians who can say what they actually mean.
There are no politicians who can say what they actually mean.
People who can say what they actually mean are people of
principle, not politics.
> When Laloo says: 'Maaro Saale Brahmin Ko' he
> actually means it.
So how many Brahmins has Lalloo killed? A million? A thousand? One?
See, this slogan is just as empty as "Garibi Hatao".
> In the context of Indian society -- where people
> often make fraudulent claims of intellectual
> prowess, wealth etc. -- the brutal honesty
> displayed by Lalooo in his dealings with
> the public and the press comes across as a
> breeze of fresh air.
Yes, I'll allow that Lalloo has shown better than anything
else why our Constitution, which lets people choose Lalloos loose
in high places must be completely scrapped.
>Laloo is quite
> non-conformist.
I cannot agree. Lalloo does conform very well to the egregiousness
of those who elect him. He is truly their representative.
>While most of the people
> try to impress others with their intelligence,
> knowledge (real or imaginary) and
> sophistication --
No, I cannot agree. Most people try to impress others with show
of money and power. Successfully, I may add.
>Laloo takes pride in his
> rustic manners, crude jokes and somewhat
> uncouth demeanor.
True. If no thief, he is at least a marvellous buffoon.
Well, it takes all types to make a world, and we certainly need more Lalloos
for increase of human population.
Arindam Banerjee
> regards,
>
> Kulbir Singh
bholu
the worse. Democracy is a poor form of government - unfortunately it is
still the best. Americans too face the same dilemmas. The boss of Italy, Mr.
Berlusconi is no saint.
The government, I have little faith in. All I wish for them is to get out of
the way sufficiently enough to allow people to reach their potential. They
will get their kickbacks or campaign monies - but as long as their decisions
are become less relevant to the economic health of the country, I have no
problems.
P.G.Gopal
ilk have ruled their respective states that can all be gleaned to be assorted Sardarjis and
assorted DMK's and assorted Laloos, assorted Christians have ruled Kerala and even the center
has been ruled by assorted Chandrashekhars, Charan Singhs, Shastris(of the non Brahmin kind),
Gandhis( a combination of Kashmiri Brahmin and Parsi). Even the IAS and IPS consists of a large
proportion of "lower" castes. Thus it is specious to say that the 'higher" castes are lording
it over assorted Sardarjis, Lalooos, DMK's etc., Only hate in some hate infested minds makes
them think so.
Rgds, Gopal
ksi...@ml.com
says...
>
>> Laloo has a lot of courage.
>
>Why do you think so? I do not know about his courage,
>but I'll allow he is a successful buffoon. And he
>is certainly potent, which is very good.
Because he's not afraid to say something back even in the Parliament of India
when insulted personally. And he reacts immediately thus exhibiting no fear or
hesitation, which are very important characteristics by themselves. Which is
more than we can say for bhangi Vajpayee who would be slapped around every day
and forced to kiss my shoes if I had been elected to the Parliament.
>>There are very few
>> politicians who can say what they actually mean.
>
>There are no politicians who can say what they actually mean.
>People who can say what they actually mean are people of
>principle, not politics.
It requires courage to say what you mean. The first sure sign of courage is
saying things that other people don't like to hear. Laloo has said plenty that
others don't like to hear, things that were quite unpopular amongst people in
high places. Nobody has suffered more politically due to the stance that he has
taken for the backward rustic populace. Unlike other backward leaders, he has
never compromised when pressed due to political circumstance. Like other
politicians it was certainly possible for him to cut deals either at the state
level or at the center. That shows that he has integrity.
>> When Laloo says: 'Maaro Saale Brahmin Ko' he
>> actually means it.
>
>So how many Brahmins has Lalloo killed? A million? A thousand? One?
>See, this slogan is just as empty as "Garibi Hatao".
Leadership does not require doing all the work yourself. It means changing the
mindset of the people so that they feel free to act. Laloo has freed a very
large section of the population from feelings of inadequacy, fears and shame
which was common to the poorer sections of society. Before Laloo came to the
Indian scene, urban people of Bihar and UP were even afraid to be associated
with the rustic populace unless it had to do with some urban twit going and
teaching the poor villagers the beauty of the language of Bhojpuri while
improving their rotten lot in life. Now it has become quite acceptable and
going by the popularity of the Shekhar Suman show, even hip. But more
importantly the rustic populace feels it has the authority to acquire political
leadership, it has begun to assert itself not as a population with needs
dependent on others for leadership, but fully capable of leading itself. More
importantly they don't want leadership which is from outsiders like Brahmins
etc. This is a major change whether people like to admit it or not.
>> In the context of Indian society -- where people
>> often make fraudulent claims of intellectual
>> prowess, wealth etc. -- the brutal honesty
>> displayed by Lalooo in his dealings with
>> the public and the press comes across as a
>> breeze of fresh air.
>
>Yes, I'll allow that Lalloo has shown better than anything
>else why our Constitution, which lets people choose Lalloos loose
>in high places must be completely scrapped.
The only people who should be scrapped are people who dislike Laloo Yadav. They
are abnormal and indecent. Forget about being allowed to vote, they should not
be allowed to come out of their houses! They are obviously stupid!
>>Laloo is quite
>> non-conformist.
>
>I cannot agree. Lalloo does conform very well to the egregiousness
>of those who elect him. He is truly their representative.
Laloo Yadav is the only person who has thus far dared to wear an electric blue
sweater in the parliament which looks today just as it looked when a political
acquaintance had remarked to my father -- "when we enter the Parliament everyone
wears the same old white and it looks quite like a 'dhobion ki baarat'." That
is what it means to be a non-conformist, to be wearing the only electric blue
sweater in a sea of white Nehru/Gandhi look-alikes.
It is quite obvious that there are many people who despite all the signs cannot
read a personality correctly. These are the same people who expect a man like
Vajpayee to become a conqueror! Ha, ha, ha! Nature and profession when in
harmony work so effectively that a good part of the nation pitted politically
against one man such as Laloo Yadav loses repeatedly to him. In other words, he
doesn't have to work at it, HE IS A NATURAL BORN LEADER!
ksi...@ml.com
>
>I would take a smart honest guy anyday to an idiot of any ilk. They do a lot better. Hope others
>realize this simple truth.
Then we must ask what do you do to avoid yourself ?
ksi...@ml.com
>
>In soc.culture.punjab P.G.Gopal <pgg...@computer.net> wrote:
>
>: Why do you think I am singling out Laloo becaause he is a low caste politician ? Do have
>: some kind of direct connection with my brain ? I am singling out Laloo, because he is the
>: lowest of the low lives(and I do not mean low caste ), even lower than
>: Jayalalitha (and she is a Brahmin), and that is saying a lot.
>
>: India is woebegone because of
>: the likes of Laloo and Jayalalitha and because of assorted Sardarjis and assorted Muslims
>: and assorted Hindus and assorted Christians who would very much prefer to destroy rather
>: than build.
>
>But let us not forget that Laloo has ruled
>his state for a relatively short time. So his
>role in the misfortunes of Bihar and India
>can't be significant.
Kulbir let's just put the shoe on the head of the person wearing it. For these
Brahmins the most apt phrase is "jiska joota usi kaa sara!" These Brahmins have
claimed that because Bihar has lowest economic statistics in India, it is due to
leadership of Laloo Yadav. So let us apply the same to the country of India.
It has one of the lowest economic statistics of the entire world. So could it
be due to Brahmin leadership during all these years in the central government ?
ksi...@ml.com
>
>Why do you think I am singling out Laloo becaause he is a low caste politician ? Do have
>some kind of direct connection with my brain ? I am singling out Laloo, because he is the
>lowest of the low lives(and I do not mean low caste ), even lower than
>Jayalalitha (and she is a Brahmin), and that is saying a lot. India is woebegone because of
>the likes of Laloo and Jayalalitha and because of assorted Sardarjis and assorted Muslims
>and assorted Hindus and assorted Christians who would very much prefer to destroy rather
>than build.
>Rgds, Gopal
From the highest of the highs of the Brahmin cow's mouth comes the definition of
the lowest of the low!
Arindam Banerjee
> In article <890e65ea.01060...@posting.google.com>, Arindam Banerjee
> says...
> >
> >> Laloo has a lot of courage.
> >
> >Why do you think so? I do not know about his courage,
> >but I'll allow he is a successful buffoon. And he
> >is certainly potent, which is very good.
>
> Because he's not afraid to say something back even in the Parliament of India
> when insulted personally.
I never said that he was a Soniatype Congressman! Lalloo is
no different from Indira et al when it comes to power-grabbing for himself
and his castefellows. He is far worse, actually.
>And he reacts immediately thus exhibiting no fear or
> hesitation, which are very important characteristics by themselves.
He could hardly be any kind of leader, if he were otherwise. The question is,
where is he leading his followers? If his only slogan is to kill brahmins,
then he cannot expect to win the support of rational people.
>Which is
> more than we can say for bhangi Vajpayee who would be slapped around every day
> and forced to kiss my shoes if I had been elected to the Parliament.
You mean you would slap people and make them kiss your shoes if you were
elected to the Indian Parliament. Now that shows something about your
mentality, but does not diminish Mr Vajpayee in any way.
> >>There are very few
> >> politicians who can say what they actually mean.
> >
> >There are no politicians who can say what they actually mean.
> >People who can say what they actually mean are people of
> >principle, not politics.
>
> It requires courage to say what you mean. The first sure sign of courage is
> saying things that other people don't like to hear. Laloo has said plenty that
> others don't like to hear, things that were quite unpopular amongst people in
> high places.
If he asks his followers to kill brahmins, why should he be
popular among people who do not want to become genocidal maniacs?
>Nobody has suffered more politically due to the stance that he has
> taken for the backward rustic populace. Unlike other backward leaders, he has
> never compromised when pressed due to political circumstance. Like other
> politicians it was certainly possible for him to cut deals either at the state
> level or at the center. That shows that he has integrity.
Unlike most politicians, he has been in and out of jail on charges of huge
embezzlements. He has flouted democratic norms as blatantly as possible; by
not resigning when chargesheeted (as BJP officials did under tehelka.com
accusations) and instead very cleverly installed his wife to the post of CM,
making a mockery of the entire electoral process. The good thing here is
that the stupidity of the Constitution has been showed up.
I don't think your arguments bear water. Lalloo is just as scheming a
politician as any other. He changes allegiances, and compromises, quite
readily. He grovels for the support of a stupid foreign woman, compromising
without redemption the dignity of the Biharis.
He inflames his followers with rhetoric of the lowest kind. In short
he appeals to the basest elements of the people - far from trying to elevate
them, he tries to unite them on the basis of pure hatred and envy.
He brings no good things, that will improve productivity, or efficiency.
Nothing, no industries, no schools, hospitals, roads... nothing except buckets
of arrogance deriving from contrived mythology.
He survives in power because his followers are simple and blinkered.
> >> When Laloo says: 'Maaro Saale Brahmin Ko' he
> >> actually means it.
> >
> >So how many Brahmins has Lalloo killed? A million? A thousand? One?
> >See, this slogan is just as empty as "Garibi Hatao".
>
> Leadership does not require doing all the work yourself.
You are evading my question. Lalloo is a coward if he cannot even kill one
brahmin with his own hands. He is such a coward, he is telling his followers
to kill brahmins, instead. Peculiarly, he is considered brave, by some.
He has even failed to get his followers to kill brahmins indiscriminately, as
they did in the Cultural Revolution in Communist countries. So, that way, he
is (mercifully) a total failure.
>It means changing the
> mindset of the people so that they feel free to act. Laloo has freed a very
> large section of the population from feelings of inadequacy, fears and shame
> which was common to the poorer sections of society. Before Laloo came to the
> Indian scene, urban people of Bihar and UP were even afraid to be associated
> with the rustic populace unless it had to do with some urban twit going and
> teaching the poor villagers the beauty of the language of Bhojpuri while
> improving their rotten lot in life. Now it has become quite acceptable and
> going by the popularity of the Shekhar Suman show, even hip. But more
> importantly the rustic populace feels it has the authority to acquire political
> leadership, it has begun to assert itself not as a population with needs
> dependent on others for leadership, but fully capable of leading itself. More
> importantly they don't want leadership which is from outsiders like Brahmins
> etc. This is a major change whether people like to admit it or not.
It will be very good, if the rural population will stand up for itself. But
Lalloo can hardly claim anything for that. There are many other forces involved,
that are non-political. The radio, television, primary education, post office,
good health initiatives, vernacular newspapers, social workers... Politicians
like Lalloo are only a nuisance, they stand in the way. They support just
their own group, and are parasites so far as all the rest are concerned.
> >> In the context of Indian society -- where people
> >> often make fraudulent claims of intellectual
> >> prowess, wealth etc. -- the brutal honesty
> >> displayed by Lalooo in his dealings with
> >> the public and the press comes across as a
> >> breeze of fresh air.
> >
> >Yes, I'll allow that Lalloo has shown better than anything
> >else why our Constitution, which lets people choose Lalloos loose
> >in high places must be completely scrapped.
>
> The only people who should be scrapped are people who dislike Laloo Yadav. They
> are abnormal and indecent. Forget about being allowed to vote, they should not
> be allowed to come out of their houses! They are obviously stupid!
So, Lalloo and you do not believe in the democratic process. You are fascists,
trying to impose your will upon others. In fact, you do not have a clue to
the democratic process, even though you live in a democratic country. I am
saying that our democratic process is bad and needs change for the better
through a superior constitution, of the kind better-off countries possess.
Basically you are talking civil war. The racist Khalistanis tried that, and failed
miserably. All they'll have is the contempt of everyone else, including Sikhs.
> >>Laloo is quite
> >> non-conformist.
> >
> >I cannot agree. Lalloo does conform very well to the egregiousness
> >of those who elect him. He is truly their representative.
>
> Laloo Yadav is the only person who has thus far dared to wear an electric blue
> sweater in the parliament which looks today just as it looked when a political
> acquaintance had remarked to my father -- "when we enter the Parliament everyone
> wears the same old white and it looks quite like a 'dhobion ki baarat'." That
> is what it means to be a non-conformist, to be wearing the only electric blue
> sweater in a sea of white Nehru/Gandhi look-alikes.
As if his dress matters! Politicians are supposed to enact laws, not make
fashion statements. Obviously Lalloo is such a buffoon, he does not have the
wits to understand let alone make laws, so he resorts to gimmickry to please
his followers.
> It is quite obvious that there are many people who despite all the signs cannot
> read a personality correctly. These are the same people who expect a man like
> Vajpayee to become a conqueror! Ha, ha, ha! Nature and profession when in
> harmony work so effectively that a good part of the nation pitted politically
> against one man such as Laloo Yadav loses repeatedly to him. In other words, he
> doesn't have to work at it, HE IS A NATURAL BORN LEADER!
...of idiots.
Arindam Banerjee
Kulbir Singh
: The government, I have little faith in. All I wish for them is to get out of
: the way sufficiently enough to allow people to reach their potential. They
: will get their kickbacks or campaign monies - but as long as their decisions
: are become less relevant to the economic health of the country, I have no
: problems.
It is natural for the privileged castes in India
to have less faith in government. Less government
not only means lower taxes for them -- but it also
means unfair advantage for jobs in the public
and private sector.
It is the poor lower-caste people who need larger
government for primary education, basic health care
and a visible presence in the administration through
reservation.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
Kulbir Singh
:> Laloo has a lot of courage.
: Why do you think so? I do not know about his courage,
: but I'll allow he is a successful buffoon. And he
: is certainly potent, which is very good.
No other Bihar politician of last 50 years
has defied the upper-caste establishment
(administration, press etc) so brazenly
-- the way Laloo has done.
It is said that the IAS/IPS/IFS officers won't
touch the feet of Babu Jagjivan Ram due to
his inferior caste while they had no such
inhibitions for the other ministers of the
cabinet. And Babu Jagjivan Ram didn't
mind humiliations of this kind for several
decades so that he could remain the minister.
In contrast Laloo Yadav openly mocks his
persecuters and challenges them against
heavy odds.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
Arindam Banerjee
"Kulbir Singh" <kbh...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:9fhngr$eed$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca...
> In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> :> Laloo has a lot of courage.
>
> : Why do you think so? I do not know about his courage,
> : but I'll allow he is a successful buffoon. And he
> : is certainly potent, which is very good.
>
> No other Bihar politician of last 50 years
> has defied the upper-caste establishment
> (administration, press etc) so brazenly
> -- the way Laloo has done.
If he did any good with that approach, I would applaud
him. Since he did not, he has only been a buffoon, at the
kindest.
> It is said that the IAS/IPS/IFS officers won't
> touch the feet of Babu Jagjivan Ram due to
> his inferior caste while they had no such
> inhibitions for the other ministers of the
> cabinet.
"It is said" you say. I have never heard of any CS
officer touching the feet of any senior minister, unless
he has genuine respect for him, arising out of some
personal reason (kinship, regard). To the best of
my knowledge, that is not the way the Indian Govt.
works. I think important matters should not be discussed
on the basis of hearsay. If you have any direct knowledge,
then say so, and I'll be open-minded enough to admit
your evidence.
>And Babu Jagjivan Ram didn't
> mind humiliations of this kind for several
> decades so that he could remain the minister.
If not touching feet counts as a humiliation, I have
humiliated all the senior officers I worked for, in
my career in India.
> In contrast Laloo Yadav openly mocks his
> persecuters and challenges them against
> heavy odds.
That is okay. What else can be expected from any leader?
The point is that while he is a potent person, and a good
buffoon, he is a complete nuisance to people who are
guided by reason.
ksi...@ml.com
says...
>> In contrast Laloo Yadav openly mocks his
>> persecuters and challenges them against
>> heavy odds.
>
>That is okay. What else can be expected from any leader?
>The point is that while he is a potent person, and a good
>buffoon, he is a complete nuisance to people who are
>guided by reason.
Hmm, a "potent buffoon!" I think that is an intellectual watchamacallit
'euphemism' for what other ordinary folks call a sense of humour! Ho, ho, ho!
Laloo Yadav has broken new ground in the kind of persona that a politician can
assume in India and still succeed. Prior to Laloo Yadav, you could either wear
a silly looking Nehru jacket and pretend to be descended from royalty or wear a
dhot and walk around half naked hobbling on a stick like Gandhi or some other
"pacifist" freedom fighter.
In that herd, the one rustic Laloo Yadav decided to actually enjoy the
limelight and give the press something more interesting to quote than -- "jai
javan, jai kisan!"
If Vajpayee and Advani projected for themselves an orthodox religious image
hoping the naive amongst the voters will worship them as the naive typically do,
Laloo Yadav's intention forever was to project a more politically savvy, playful
personality as advertised by his political posters -- "apne kisma kaa akelaa
hai, bahuta khela khelaa hai!" And the most staunch supporters of Laloo Yadav
have done exactly that, they have not voted for a Yudhisthir, they have voted
for their Krishna. They have not elected a man to be worshipped by conventioal
society, but elected a man who could play with conventional society! And Laloo
has delivered on his promise many times over! Ha, ha, ha!
Kulbir Singh
: "Kulbir Singh" <kbh...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
: news:9fhngr$eed$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca...
:> In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
:>
:> :> Laloo has a lot of courage.
:>
:> : Why do you think so? I do not know about his courage,
:> : but I'll allow he is a successful buffoon. And he
:> : is certainly potent, which is very good.
:>
:> No other Bihar politician of last 50 years
:> has defied the upper-caste establishment
:> (administration, press etc) so brazenly
:> -- the way Laloo has done.
: If he did any good with that approach, I would applaud
: him. Since he did not, he has only been a buffoon, at the
: kindest.
Remember, doing good isn't a part of
Indian politics.
What good did Laloo's predecessors do
whom the upper-caste establishment and
people like PG Gopal didn't despise so
much and intellectuals such as your
exalted-self didn't consider
buffoons? The issue is whether
Laloo has more courage or not
compared to other Bihari politicians
of last 50 years. The answer is yes.
What you are doing in this argument is
totally unfair. Suppose someone wants
to give credit to you for your scientific
achievements and one of your detractors
butts in and says wait a minute -- Mr.
Banerjee can't be a good scientist
because he is a lousy cricketer.
Accomplishments in the field of science
and the performance in cricket aren't
related.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
Kulbir Singh
:> It is said that the IAS/IPS/IFS officers won't
:> touch the feet of Babu Jagjivan Ram due to
:> his inferior caste while they had no such
:> inhibitions for the other ministers of the
:> cabinet.
: "It is said" you say. I have never heard of any CS
: officer touching the feet of any senior minister, unless
: he has genuine respect for him, arising out of some
: personal reason (kinship, regard). To the best of
: my knowledge, that is not the way the Indian Govt.
: works. I think important matters should not be discussed
: on the basis of hearsay. If you have any direct knowledge,
: then say so, and I'll be open-minded enough to admit
: your evidence.
I read about Jagjivan Ram episode in
Dalit Voice which I am sure many people
won't consider as trustworthy as Times of India,
Indian Express and India Today.
It is unfortunate that what we find believable
and what we find hearsay is determined by the
kind of politics we belong to. If we
do a survey -- most of the people who'd
dismiss the information I gave about Jagjivan Ram
as hearsay would completely believe in the
stories that Laloo is involved in stealing
cars and other petty thefts in Bihar.
They'd also believe in the stories that Baba
Jarnail Singh was involved in smuggling and
flesh-trade; and prior to June 1984, Sri Darbar
Sahib Amritsar had become an important hub
(pilgrim centre) for flesh-trade.
Truth is the first casualty of blind
political polarization.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Arindam Banerjee
M. Ranjit Mathews
> In that herd, the one rustic Laloo Yadav decided to actually enjoy the
> limelight and give the press something more interesting to quote than -- "jai
> javan, jai kisan!"
Well, talking of "Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan", what do you think of Lal
Bahadur Shastri as compared to Lalloo?
Arindam Banerjee
> 'euphemism' for what other ordinary folks call a sense of humour! Ho, ho, ho!
Well, you may get him some Christian votes for that Santa Claus impersonation!
> Laloo Yadav has broken new ground in the kind of persona that a politician can
> assume in India and still succeed. Prior to Laloo Yadav, you could either wear
> a silly looking Nehru jacket and pretend to be descended from royalty or wear a
> dhot and walk around half naked hobbling on a stick like Gandhi or some other
> "pacifist" freedom fighter.
Correct.
> In that herd, the one rustic Laloo Yadav decided to actually enjoy the
> limelight and give the press something more interesting to quote than -- "jai
> javan, jai kisan!"
Again, no problem from my side, so long as he refrains from enunciating
genocidal policies.
> If Vajpayee and Advani projected for themselves an orthodox religious image
> hoping the naive amongst the voters will worship them as the naive typically do,
> Laloo Yadav's intention forever was to project a more politically savvy, playful
> personality as advertised by his political posters -- "apne kisma kaa akelaa
> hai, bahuta khela khelaa hai!" And the most staunch supporters of Laloo Yadav
> have done exactly that, they have not voted for a Yudhisthir, they have voted
> for their Krishna.
Lord Krishna was not a buffoon. Lalloo more correctly represents the likes
of those arrogant and violent Yadavas who self-destroyed, creating so much
anguish for Lord Krishna, that it hastened the end of his incarnation.
Looks like things have not changed over five thousand years, so far as the
bumptious Yadava mentality is concerned.
>They have not elected a man to be worshipped by conventioal
> society, but elected a man who could play with conventional society! And Laloo
> has delivered on his promise many times over! Ha, ha, ha!
Again, you are not far off the mark. Yadavas as a group were and are
a vigorous, talented, and straightforward lot. But they never quite succeeded,
in the larger population, due to certain limitations.
Arindam Banerjee
bholu
Kulbir Singh wrote:
> It is natural for the privileged castes in India
> to have less faith in government. Less government
> not only means lower taxes for them -- but it also
> means unfair advantage for jobs in the public
> and private sector.
Good sense of humor.
Anyway, I don't even want to get into that nonsense - you and
Kunal and roll in the mud.
This is another reason for big expanded role for private sector.
Merit, not birth, will rule. And it is PATRONIZING AND
INSULTING to the "lower" castes to assume they cannot
compete on merit.
> It is the poor lower-caste people who need larger
> government for primary education, basic health care
> and a visible presence in the administration through
> reservation.
This I cannit disagree with, except I would change the
criterion from caste to economic need.
>
>
> regards,
>
> Kulbir Singh
Kulbir Singh
: So, Lalloo and you do not believe in the democratic process. You are
: fascists, trying to impose your will upon others. In fact, you do
: not have a clue to the democratic process, even though you live in
: a democratic country. I am saying that our democratic process is
: bad and needs change for the better through a superior constitution,
: of the kind better-off countries possess.
: Basically you are talking civil war. The racist Khalistanis tried that,
: and failed miserably. All they'll have is the contempt of everyone
: else, including Sikhs.
The racist Khalistanis failed in their evil designs
and they have the contempt of everyone including
Sikhs for a very simple reason. They didn't follow
the most basic principle which guides the politics
of the subcontinent. And that basic principle
is an undying faith in the Gandhain philosophy.
No protest movement can succeed (the creation
of Bangladesh was an exception) unless its
protagonists carefully study through Gandhian
writings the art of conducting politics.
Unless people clearly understand the mindset
which prompted Gandhiji to say that Vedas is
like an ocean and every other Indian thought
is like a small river which merges in this
big ocean; unless people clearly understand
the mindset which prompted Gandhiji to
say that Devanagri script was the most
superior script among all the Indian
scripts -- succes is going to elude them
and all the protest movements will end up
being petty, narrow-minded, hate-filled,
racist struggles.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: ...of idiots.
: Arindam Banerjee
Kulbir Singh
: So, Lalloo and you do not believe in the democratic process. You are
: fascists, trying to impose your will upon others. In fact, you do not
: have a clue to the democratic process, even though you live in a
: democratic country. I am saying that our democratic process is bad
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: and needs change for the better through a superior constitution, of
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: the kind better-off countries possess.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The constitution of a country is as good as the people
who enforce it and interpret it. When the enforcers
and interpreters are an integral part of lusciously
criminal landscape -- no constitution is worth
the paper it's written on.
We never want to accept our responsibility for
anything because accepting the responsibility means
changing our behaviour, our mindset. So we are
constantly looking for smokescreens, scapegoats --
anything which would allow us to be self-righteous
without accepting the responsibility.
Blaming the constitution is the latest scam of
politically savvy Indians. How would a new
constitution be helpful when the most powerful
Indian -- the Prime Minister of the country --
dismisses the investigation of tehelka.com
as politically motivated; when the minister
responsible for internal security is involved
in riots resulting in tens of thousands of
deaths?
Are we going to solicit the services of some
mythical Devtas from Devaloka to strictly enforce
and correctly interpret the new magical
superior-constitution?
: ...of idiots.
Arindam Banerjee
> In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> : "Kulbir Singh" <kbh...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> : news:9fhngr$eed$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca...
> :> In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> :> Laloo has a lot of courage.
>
> :> : Why do you think so? I do not know about his courage,
> :> : but I'll allow he is a successful buffoon. And he
> :> : is certainly potent, which is very good.
> :>
> :> No other Bihar politician of last 50 years
> :> has defied the upper-caste establishment
> :> (administration, press etc) so brazenly
> :> -- the way Laloo has done.
>
> : If he did any good with that approach, I would applaud
> : him. Since he did not, he has only been a buffoon, at the
> : kindest.
>
> Remember, doing good isn't a part of
> Indian politics.
Unfortunately, that has been true so far. However, there are
bad politicians, and worse politicians. A politician preaching
genocide, like Hitler and Lalloo, plumbs the lowest depths of badness.
> What good did Laloo's predecessors do
> whom the upper-caste establishment and
> people like PG Gopal didn't despise so
> much and intellectuals such as your
> exalted-self didn't consider
> buffoons?
At least they did not spread Mandalitis. That is, they did not
try to crush all hope for future generations, by pursuing the
most blantant and divisive casteist politics. They did try to
uplift the masses, through primary education, famine relief, law and order,
social reform, higher education and industrialisation, good foreign
policy. Politicians of the Lalloo-Mulayam type are totally incompetent,
relying simply and purely upon caste-based electoral arithmetic to get
elected. They believe that all the state's money should go for their
re-election, and spend same accordingly, without any heed for those
outside their own castes. This is a fundamentally unstable
situation. It is true that they are only amplifying the Nehru-Gandhi
errors, grossly.
> The issue is whether
> Laloo has more courage or not
> compared to other Bihari politicians
> of last 50 years. The answer is yes.
Well, agreed. But Lalloo has lost half of Bihar,
fortunately for the Jharkhandis. I am very happy
about this.
> What you are doing in this argument is
> totally unfair. Suppose someone wants
> to give credit to you for your scientific
> achievements and one of your detractors
> butts in and says wait a minute -- Mr.
> Banerjee can't be a good scientist
> because he is a lousy cricketer.
It could be that my scientific achievements may be held
to be most the remarkable ever by future generations, but I do object
to being labelled as a lousy cricketer. While I admit that
Tendulkar's batting is superior to mine, I think I can go to
the crease with more style; and in any case I don't think I
can do much worse than Mr Ajit Agarkar in Australia, batting-wise.
> Accomplishments in the field of science
> and the performance in cricket aren't
> related.
Not quite true. Science is there in all practical human endeavour.
I have not given up hope of beating all speed records, in earth
or in space, yet.
With best wishes,
Kulbir Singh
:> : If he did any good with that approach, I would applaud
:> : him. Since he did not, he has only been a buffoon, at the
:> : kindest.
:>
:> Remember, doing good isn't a part of
:> Indian politics.
: Unfortunately, that has been true so far. However, there are
: bad politicians, and worse politicians. A politician preaching
: genocide, like Hitler and Lalloo, plumbs the lowest depths of badness.
When Sri Singh Sahib Bhai Sahib Mohan Chand Karam
Chand Khalsa Gandhiji preaches tolerance and
non-violence -- one million people are
mercillesly butchered during riots and Mahatmaji
becomes the father of the nation.
Ironically when Laloo preaches genocide against
upper-castes -- it is the private army of
the upper-castes which kill thousands of
lower-castes in massacres.
Apparently Laloo isn't as successful
as his detractors might want to give
him credit for. Or may be Laloo needs
to change his strategy and start preaching
tolerance and non-violence instead of
genocide.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: With best wishes,
: Arindam Banerjee
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh <kbh...@sfu.ca> wrote in message news:<9fjck6$mtg$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
:> In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
:>
:> : "Kulbir Singh" <kbh...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
:
:> What good did Laloo's predecessors do
:> whom the upper-caste establishment and
:> people like PG Gopal didn't despise so
:> much and intellectuals such as your
:> exalted-self didn't consider
:> buffoons?
: At least they did not spread Mandalitis. That is, they did not
: try to crush all hope for future generations, by pursuing the
: most blantant and divisive casteist politics.
The recommendations of Mandal commission are
aimed to imrprove the conditions of lower-caste
people and these recommendations have the blessings
of one of the most honest Indian politician
of great integrity -- VP Singh.
It is understandable that upper-caste people are
quite upset with the recommendations. Several years
ago they launched an agitation against its
implementation.
What you consider to be divisive casteist
politics is a vehicle for a better life for
hundreds of millions of poor Indians.
: Politicians of the Lalloo-Mulayam type are totally incompetent,
: relying simply and purely upon caste-based electoral arithmetic to get
: elected.
Respected Sir,
Can you please name one Indian politician in last
50 years who didn't use caste-based electoral
arithmetic to get elected?
In case you are unable to name such a person --
I'd request you to kindly desist from criticizing
those politicians who are trying (howsoever, token
symbolic or politically motivated their attempt may
be) to give a voice to the poor and disadvantaged
people of our country.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: With best wishes,
: Arindam Banerjee
Arindam Banerjee
> :> : him. Since he did not, he has only been a buffoon, at the
> :> : kindest.
> :>
> :> Remember, doing good isn't a part of
> :> Indian politics.
>
> : Unfortunately, that has been true so far. However, there are
> : bad politicians, and worse politicians. A politician preaching
> : genocide, like Hitler and Lalloo, plumbs the lowest depths of badness.
>
> When Sri Singh Sahib Bhai Sahib Mohan Chand Karam
> Chand Khalsa Gandhiji preaches tolerance and
> non-violence -- one million people are
> mercillesly butchered during riots and Mahatmaji
> becomes the father of the nation.
I have to agree that Gandhiji was a very bad political leader,
going by such results as you have pointed out.
He should have foreseen the riots, and tried to prevent them
through practical and good political means, as opposed to
spiritual and moral humbug. He totally neglected the
distrust between the religious communities, and this blindness
caused him to make such errors good politicians would not
have committed.
> Ironically when Laloo preaches genocide against
> upper-castes -- it is the private army of
> the upper-castes which kill thousands of
> lower-castes in massacres.
You have a gift for exaggerating numbers. Massacres are
comparatively few, and far between, and the numbers so far
are at most in the order of a few dozen. The "lower-castes"
are not sheep either - they retaliate in kind.
If the Chief Minister preaches genocide for all who do not
support him, what else can be expected but civil war? Since
Lalloo is a buffoon, no one including myself takes him seriously.
Lalloo has neither the wits, nor the organisation, and I suspect,
not the innate evil, to be another Hitler or Stalin.
Let us never forget that parliamentary democracy, evolved from
civil war in England. It is a peaceful alternative to civil war.
Thus parliamentary democracy, instead of killing and destroying
the country, enriches it. But this only happens when the right
for the other party to rule, as per law, over a limited period of
time, is recognised by all parties. Failure to understand this
basic principle, once again leads to civil war, inevitably.
Since Lalloo is only a bumptious bumpkin, he has no idea at all
about the basics of parliamentary democracy. He sees this as an
exercise to make hay just for himself and his castefellows, any
way he can.
> Apparently Laloo isn't as successful
> as his detractors might want to give
> him credit for. Or may be Laloo needs
> to change his strategy and start preaching
> tolerance and non-violence instead of
> genocide.
Certainly. He can do that from jail, where he'll belong, if the
charges against him are proven beyond doubt.
Arindam Banerjee
> :> whom the upper-caste establishment and
> :> people like PG Gopal didn't despise so
> :> much and intellectuals such as your
> :> exalted-self didn't consider
> :> buffoons?
>
> : At least they did not spread Mandalitis. That is, they did not
> : try to crush all hope for future generations, by pursuing the
> : most blantant and divisive casteist politics.
>
> The recommendations of Mandal commission are
> aimed to imrprove the conditions of lower-caste
> people and these recommendations have the blessings
> of one of the most honest Indian politician
> of great integrity -- VP Singh.
A chaps who resigns when faced with any problem; a man who licks
feet and afterwards stabs in the back; a man who to win power
initiates the worst kind of divisive politics designed for pemament
discord - no Mr Singh, I cannot think highly about that man.
Mandal-reservations will never improve their lot - it will only create
endless bickering and continue their sense of inferiority. It will
stifle their talents in govt. and public sector, because they won't
have any scope for initiative there. It is the greatest curse, all
the more so because it seems to do good, and in fact, does so for
a small vocal minority who want to perpetuate the benefits for their
descendants. The "lower-castes" would be much better off with good
primary education, technical jobs, business opportunities, health
provision, better transport and telecommunications, etc. They would
become much richer, and use their talents in the directions of their
own interests, not rot in govt. offices.
I have written about all this before, so I don't want to repeat. The
plain fact is that as an Indian who will be considered upper caste on
the basis of my name, I have no place in India, thanks to the logic
of reservations. Nor for my children either - if they want to take
up Australian citizenship, I don't see how I can dissuade them. They
have been brought up to respect equal rights.
The only good thing about Mandalitis is that it should make upper-castes
more aware of opportunities as self-employed, or in the private sector.
> It is understandable that upper-caste people are
> quite upset with the recommendations. Several years
> ago they launched an agitation against its
> implementation.
True. Well, life goes on. The "upper-castes" now are now totally
disenchanted with the political process, and are looking out for
themslves as best they can.
> What you consider to be divisive casteist
> politics is a vehicle for a better life for
> hundreds of millions of poor Indians.
>
> : Politicians of the Lalloo-Mulayam type are totally incompetent,
> : relying simply and purely upon caste-based electoral arithmetic to get
> : elected.
>
> Respected Sir,
>
> Can you please name one Indian politician in last
> 50 years who didn't use caste-based electoral
> arithmetic to get elected?
I'd say quite a few Congress and Communist persons, in
Bihar and Bengal. Jyoti babu never used caste-based
electoral arithmetic - he used a well-trained mafia
to get elected.
> In case you are unable to name such a person --
> I'd request you to kindly desist from criticizing
> those politicians who are trying (howsoever, token
> symbolic or politically motivated their attempt may
> be) to give a voice to the poor and disadvantaged
> people of our country.
Lalloo's people are neither poor nor disadvantaged, thanks
to Lalloo's initiatives regarding the cow-fodder issue, and
many others, that have impoverished and disadvantaged
non-Lalloo people. They, and their sympathisers, are not likely to
desist from abusing or ridiculing Lalloo, as they please.
Arindam Banerjee
Arindam Banerjee
> :> touch the feet of Babu Jagjivan Ram due to
> :> his inferior caste while they had no such
> :> inhibitions for the other ministers of the
> :> cabinet.
>
> : "It is said" you say. I have never heard of any CS
> : officer touching the feet of any senior minister, unless
> : he has genuine respect for him, arising out of some
> : personal reason (kinship, regard). To the best of
> : my knowledge, that is not the way the Indian Govt.
> : works. I think important matters should not be discussed
> : on the basis of hearsay. If you have any direct knowledge,
> : then say so, and I'll be open-minded enough to admit
> : your evidence.
>
> I read about Jagjivan Ram episode in
> Dalit Voice which I am sure many people
> won't consider as trustworthy as Times of India,
> Indian Express and India Today.
I give equal weightage to all publications. I start from
a zero level to all reported news, then work up to a certain percentage of
plausibility, using cross-referencing, logical analysis,
consistency with other papers and accepted past information, etc.
> It is unfortunate that what we find believable
> and what we find hearsay is determined by the
> kind of politics we belong to.
Very true. I fully agree.
If we
> do a survey -- most of the people who'd
> dismiss the information I gave about Jagjivan Ram
> as hearsay would completely believe in the
> stories that Laloo is involved in stealing
> cars and other petty thefts in Bihar.
You didn't say anything about Mr Ram - you said that
IAS officers did not touch his feet, presumably
because he was lower caste. Feet-touching has its own
logic, which you may not understand. In fact, you
said nothing controversial at all! All you wrote
showed the ignorance of non-Hindus about some Hindu
customs, and getting unduly excited about same.
As for Lalloo, he is credited with much bigger thefts.
Rightly or wrongly, he is known to his detractors
as a chara-chor, not a mere car thief. So Lalloo's
supporters, notably Shri Kunal Singh, despise
small-time political thievery, as
exposed by tehelka.com
> They'd also believe in the stories that Baba
> Jarnail Singh was involved in smuggling and
> flesh-trade; and prior to June 1984, Sri Darbar
> Sahib Amritsar had become an important hub
> (pilgrim centre) for flesh-trade.
To tell the truth, I do know at least one colleague
(non-Sikh, Punjabi Hindu) who was terribly upset by
the Army action. He said the whole thing had been
totally unnecessary, and should have been avoided.
I cannot agree more. But there was no alternative. What
essentially was a bickering between two Congress
leaders became amplified. Bhindranwale was raised
by Indira Gandhi to curb the Darbara Singh faction,
and lift the Zail Singh group. Bhindranwale became
Indira's Frankenstein - he grouped with the Akali
zealots and made a bid for a huge separate state,
with backing from rich maladjusted overseas Sikhs.
He was also helped by reactionary forces,
troubled by the rise of the the Nirankaris
(whose leader was murdered) and also by the increasing
Hinduisation of Sikhs. Genuine grievances,like
Chandigarh to Punjab, and not-so-genuine grievances,
like not having Punjabi for the state langugae, also
were factors for Bhindranwale's popularity. It is
far from difficult to find faults in the Indian
system, and even without the exaggerations he made
Bhindranwale could be, as he was, highly inflammatory. With
more and more murders of Sikhs (Atwal is just one
example) and also Hindus by the separatists, things became tough for
Bhindranwale who turned the Golden Temple into a
fortress. No Govt. worth its name can stand such a
situation. So the Army action was inevitable, though
done with maximum sensitivity to Sikh feelings. Far
fewer Indian lives needed to be lost, otherwise.
Those are the facts, as I understand. Please feel
free to insert your own comments or rebuttals. (I
fear I have oversimplified Punjabi politics.) The point is
that a place of worship was used for insurrection,
and no one suggested it was used for prostitution.
> Truth is the first casualty of blind
> political polarization.
Exactly.
Arindam Banerjee
Kulbir Singh
:>
: If we
:> do a survey -- most of the people who'd
:> dismiss the information I gave about Jagjivan Ram
:> as hearsay would completely believe in the
:> stories that Laloo is involved in stealing
:> cars and other petty thefts in Bihar.
: You didn't say anything about Mr Ram - you said that
: IAS officers did not touch his feet, presumably
: because he was lower caste. Feet-touching has its own
++++++++++++++++++++++++
: logic, which you may not understand. In fact, you
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: said nothing controversial at all! All you wrote
++++++++++++
: showed the ignorance of non-Hindus about some Hindu
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: customs, and getting unduly excited about same.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What I wrote was quite simple. The bureaucrats touched
the feet of upper-caste ministers but didn't
touch Jagjivan Ram's feet because of his lower-caste.
Now you are free to give this story as reported in
Dalit Voice any intellectual spin -- engineering,
evolutionary, biological, molecular, computational,
musical, linguistic, economical, historical, cultural,
religious, whatever. I don't have anything more
to add to the story. I'd let the readers use their
own judgement and interpret the story the way they
want to.
Kulbir Singh
: As for Lalloo, he is credited with much bigger thefts.
: Rightly or wrongly, he is known to his detractors
: as a chara-chor, not a mere car thief. So Lalloo's
: supporters, notably Shri Kunal Singh, despise
: small-time political thievery, as exposed by tehelka.com
Laloo's supporters, notably Shri Kunal Singh despise
much more than small-time thievery, as exposed by
tehelka.com. You need to read their postings
a lot more carefully.
Kulbir Singh
:
:> They'd also believe in the stories that Baba
Such is the power of tanks and helicopter gunships
that we use them to take away other nations language,
culture, traditions, way of life, and surreptitiously
replace them with our own; force their children to sing
our anthem...salute our flag; send our soldiers in their
homes to strip away their resources, dignity and pride.
And lo and behold, such is the power of tanks
and helicopter gunships that we also force them
to accept our version of events.
This is what subjugation is all about.
Kulbir Singh
:
:> They'd also believe in the stories that Baba
:> Jarnail Singh was involved in smuggling and
:> flesh-trade; and prior to June 1984, Sri Darbar
:> Sahib Amritsar had become an important hub
:> (pilgrim centre) for flesh-trade.
: It is
: far from difficult to find faults in the Indian
: system, and even without the exaggerations he made
: Bhindranwale could be, as he was, highly inflammatory.
There is no dearth of inflammation in Indian
political landscape. Biharis found Mrs Gandhi
quite inflammatory and Tamils found Rajiv
Gandhi inflammatory. But none of these groups
invaded Delhi with their armies and sent commandos
equipped with sophisticated weapons to 1
Safdarjang Road to flush out terrorists.
Kulbir Singh
: Mandal-reservations will never improve their lot - it will only create
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: endless bickering and continue their sense of inferiority. It will
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: stifle their talents in govt. and public sector, because they won't
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: have any scope for initiative there. It is the greatest curse, all
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: the more so because it seems to do good, and in fact, does so for
: a small vocal minority who want to perpetuate the benefits for their
: descendants. The "lower-castes" would be much better off with good
: primary education, technical jobs, business opportunities, health
: provision, better transport and telecommunications, etc. They would
: become much richer, and use their talents in the directions of their
: own interests, not rot in govt. offices.
Our undisguised obsession and unsatiated
urge to define others, interpret their
history and politics and tell them what
is good for them and what is not,
symptomatic of a contagious crippling
affliction caused by delusions of supremacy
and grandeour and nurtured by feelings
of arrogance is a logical but disastrous
fallout of Gandhian legacy. For the future
to be less dark than the present and the
past -- an immediate treatment of this
debilitating affliction is essential.
: The only good thing about Mandalitis is that it
: should make upper-castes more aware of opportunities
: as self-employed,or in the private sector.
And without this awareness -- the upper-castes
run the risk of losing their beloved empire
founded on a continuous barrage of balderdash
and endless shenanigans.
Kulbir Singh
:>
:> Can you please name one Indian politician in last
:> 50 years who didn't use caste-based electoral
:> arithmetic to get elected?
: I'd say quite a few Congress and Communist persons, in
: Bihar and Bengal. Jyoti babu never used caste-based
: electoral arithmetic - he used a well-trained mafia
: to get elected.
If Jyoti Babu and his party can get elected
in Bengal continuously for 25 odd years by using
a well-trained mafia -- we can't help but draw the
inference that Bengalis as a nation are a bunch
of idiots and the widely-held belief about their
political maturity and intelligence is a myth.
Arya Raychaudhuri
Kulbir Singh wrote:
It may be due to aversion of some bengalis towards circumcised
politicians.
Arjoe
Kulbir Singh
:> In case you are unable to name such a person --
:> I'd request you to kindly desist from criticizing
:> those politicians who are trying (howsoever, token
:> symbolic or politically motivated their attempt may
:> be) to give a voice to the poor and disadvantaged
:> people of our country.
: Lalloo's people are neither poor nor disadvantaged, thanks
: to Lalloo's initiatives regarding the cow-fodder issue, and
: many others, that have impoverished and disadvantaged
: non-Lalloo people. They, and their sympathisers, are not likely to
: desist from abusing or ridiculing Lalloo, as they please.
If some people are adamant on abusing or ridiculing
Laloo -- that is OK. It just shows that there are
people who have a hard time in accepting that lower-caste
people have as much right to milk Bharat Mata
as others. The lower-caste people may not be as slick
and smooth in milking due to late start but given
enough practice and experience they'd do equally well.
So no need to lose hope. The mystique of the holyland,
the splendid punyabhumi -- the eternal land of peace and
bliss -- isn't likely to wither away anytime soon.
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh wrote:
Counselling can be a possible solution.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Arjoe
Arya Raychaudhuri
Kulbir Singh wrote:
> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> : Kulbir Singh wrote:
>
> :> In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> :>
> :> :>
> :> :> Can you please name one Indian politician in last
> :> :> 50 years who didn't use caste-based electoral
> :> :> arithmetic to get elected?
> :>
> :> : I'd say quite a few Congress and Communist persons, in
> :> : Bihar and Bengal. Jyoti babu never used caste-based
> :> : electoral arithmetic - he used a well-trained mafia
> :> : to get elected.
> :>
> :> If Jyoti Babu and his party can get elected
> :> in Bengal continuously for 25 odd years by using
> :> a well-trained mafia -- we can't help but draw the
> :> inference that Bengalis as a nation are a bunch
> :> of idiots and the widely-held belief about their
> :> political maturity and intelligence is a myth.
>
> : It may be due to aversion of some bengalis towards circumcised
> : politicians.
>
> Counselling can be a possible solution.
Are you trying to determine what is a good solution for other(s)? :)
>
>
> regards,
>
> Kulbir Singh
>
> : Arjoe
aryanviking
Kulbir Singh wrote:
----> As we know from history -- the renaissance in India originated
from Bengal with that truly great son of India Raja Ram Mohan Roy -- it
produced great philosophers and intellectuals -- but one wonders what
went wrong and where -- I guess if anybody is to be blamed it must sure
be the commies with their equality of everything philosophy -- the
commies bring equality by bring down the intellect of the highest level
to that of guttter ghetto level -- they never try to bring equality by
uplifting the gutter ghetto levels to the level of intellect -- such
sustained campaign must sure have curbed all the intellect and ofcourse
produces sham intellectuals with commie orientations from gutter
universities like JNU etc -- just waiting for a true intellectual from
Bengal --
>
>
> : Arindam Banerjee
P.G.Gopal
Kulbir Singh wrote:
Sardarji: All those wet Khalisthlooney dreams, for naught ?
I think acceptance of reality is the first step towards mental peace,
and may I wish you that ?
Rgds, Gopal
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh wrote:
:> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
:> : It may be due to aversion of some bengalis towards circumcised
:> : politicians.
:>
:> Counselling can be a possible solution.
: Are you trying to determine what is a good solution for other(s)? :)
Not at all.
Sheikh Mujibur Rehman -- a circumcised politician --
became very popular in Bengal because he realized that
counselling was a good solution.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
:> : Arjoe
Arya Raychaudhuri
Kulbir Singh wrote:
> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> : Kulbir Singh wrote:
>
> :> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> :> : It may be due to aversion of some bengalis towards circumcised
> :> : politicians.
> :>
> :> Counselling can be a possible solution.
>
> : Are you trying to determine what is a good solution for other(s)? :)
>
> Not at all.
>
> Sheikh Mujibur Rehman -- a circumcised politician --
> became very popular in Bengal because he realized that
> counselling was a good solution.
You are switching context from Jyoti-babu's W. Bengal to Mujib's Bangladesh.
These are two different political entities.
Arjoe
>
>
> regards,
>
> Kulbir Singh
>
> :> : Arjoe
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh wrote:
:> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
:>
:> : Kulbir Singh wrote:
:>
:> :> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
:>
:> :> : It may be due to aversion of some bengalis towards circumcised
:> :> : politicians.
:> :>
:> :> Counselling can be a possible solution.
:>
:> : Are you trying to determine what is a good solution for other(s)? :)
:>
:> Not at all.
:>
:> Sheikh Mujibur Rehman -- a circumcised politician --
:> became very popular in Bengal because he realized that
:> counselling was a good solution.
: You are switching context from Jyoti-babu's W. Bengal to Mujib's Bangladesh.
: These are two different political entities.
And you are switching context from circumcised politicians to
artificial political boundaries.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Arjoe
Arya Raychaudhuri
Kulbir Singh wrote:
> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> : Kulbir Singh wrote:
>
> :> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> :>
> :> : Kulbir Singh wrote:
> :>
> :> :> In soc.culture.punjab Arya Raychaudhuri <arya.ray...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> :>
> :> :> : It may be due to aversion of some bengalis towards circumcised
> :> :> : politicians.
> :> :>
> :> :> Counselling can be a possible solution.
> :>
> :> : Are you trying to determine what is a good solution for other(s)? :)
> :>
> :> Not at all.
> :>
> :> Sheikh Mujibur Rehman -- a circumcised politician --
> :> became very popular in Bengal because he realized that
> :> counselling was a good solution.
>
> : You are switching context from Jyoti-babu's W. Bengal to Mujib's Bangladesh.
> : These are two different political entities.
>
> And you are switching context from circumcised politicians to
> artificial political boundaries.
Why artificial? People get killed while crossing it!
>
>
> regards,
>
> Kulbir Singh
>
> : Arjoe
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh wrote:
:>
:> : You are switching context from Jyoti-babu's W. Bengal to Mujib's Bangladesh.
:> : These are two different political entities.
:>
:> And you are switching context from circumcised politicians to
:> artificial political boundaries.
: Why artificial? People get killed while crossing it!
People get killed while driving their cars. They
get killed in Delhi while watching TV with their
families inside their homes.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
:> : Arjoe
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh wrote:
: Sardarji: All those wet Khalisthlooney dreams, for naught ?
Panditji,
Why talk about wet dreams when we can as well talk about
wet reality buried underneath the proud formidable ruins
of medieval shopping centres of Ghazni, Kabul and Kandhar?
Why dreams have more attraction for you than reality?
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Rgds, Gopal
Arindam Banerjee
What is "our" in this context, but the wishes of some deranged Sikhs?
Most Sikhs were and are happy in India, where they have prospered not
only in Punjab but in all other states. India is a voluntary union of
many states. Their languages, cultures, traditions, ways of life are
all highly respected. It is also understood that other languages, etc.
must be respected, or at least, not openly disrespected. The Sikhs
were no different from all other Indians, in this respect.
> And lo and behold, such is the power of tanks
> and helicopter gunships that we also force them
> to accept our version of events.
I have just given a pure summary of events that are too well documented
in newspapers and also in public memory. It is not any Govt. version; it
is just my own summary. If you find anything wrong about it, dispute it
by all means.
> This is what subjugation is all about.
I saw a map of the proposed Khalistan, and it was a huge land area
that included many places where Sikhs were by no means in the
majority. For that matter, even in Punjab proper they just had
a slim majority, which they wanted to increase by pure terrorism.
So, the Khalistanis wanted to subjugate non-Khalistanis, who had no
wish at all to join Khalistan, unlike the Sikhs who joined India of
their free will.
Peaceful means failed, and violence was necessary to subjugate the
Khalistanis. Where the Govt. failed was in not nipping this huge, painful
and unnecessary problem in the bud. We have to thank the Congress
party for that, with its moralizing humbug, and dictatorial tendencies.
Arindam Banerjee.
Arindam Banerjee
Gandhian legacy is a non-issue.
I don't have any urge to define others. It is others
who define themselves, want to define themselves, as
backward. They have every desire to remain backward,
so as to gain from reservations, to last until eternity.
I find this horrid, shameful and stupid.
Since I have the privilege of living in a country with
a superior political system, I can see what the
people in India cannot see. I can see
how they may use their own underutilised resources for
their own good, if they can escape the illogic
of reservations. They will then build up a vibrant
economy based upon self-employment, and the private sector.
Basically I want all Indians to think on positive lines,
not self-defeating lines. It is for the so-called backward
castes to see that reservations will never do them any good.
Once they accept that logic, by seeing things as people in
progressive countries do, they themselves will throw away
the chains of reservations. That day may soon come, given
new technology such as Satellite TV, phones, cheap travel and
Internet.
>For the future
> to be less dark than the present and the
> past -- an immediate treatment of this
> debilitating affliction is essential.
Yes, throw out the Indian Constitution, and have another where
the word "caste" is not mentioned.
> : The only good thing about Mandalitis is that it
> : should make upper-castes more aware of opportunities
> : as self-employed,or in the private sector.
>
> And without this awareness -- the upper-castes
> run the risk of losing their beloved empire
> founded on a continuous barrage of balderdash
> and endless shenanigans.
The last line sounds like Lalloo at his normal self. Is Lalloo
now qualified for upper-castehood?
Arindam Banerjee.
P.G.Gopal
real world where there are nation states that include India but do not
include dream states like Khalisthlooneyland. I do not have dreams of
the rapine of Mahmud of Ghazana or on the depredations of Lord Roberts
in Khandahar nor of travels of Sir Francis Younghusband in Kabul. By the
way, you have openly acknowledged that you are a Sardarji, and
consequently my addressing you as such. You will find in my writings on
the net my respect and admiration of Sikhs. I have not however,indicated
my caste,but you have obviously identified me with a sect that you have
openly hated nearly as much as you hate India, do I commend you on your
apparent perspicacity ?
Rgds, Gopal
Arindam Banerjee
> In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <arin...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> :>
>
> If we
> :> do a survey -- most of the people who'd
> :> dismiss the information I gave about Jagjivan Ram
> :> as hearsay would completely believe in the
> :> stories that Laloo is involved in stealing
> :> cars and other petty thefts in Bihar.
>
> : You didn't say anything about Mr Ram - you said that
> : IAS officers did not touch his feet, presumably
> : because he was lower caste. Feet-touching has its own
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> : logic, which you may not understand. In fact, you
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> : said nothing controversial at all! All you wrote
> ++++++++++++
> : showed the ignorance of non-Hindus about some Hindu
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> : customs, and getting unduly excited about same.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> What I wrote was quite simple. The bureaucrats touched
> the feet of upper-caste ministers but didn't
> touch Jagjivan Ram's feet because of his lower-caste.
I don't believe stories about bureaucrats touching
the feet of any kind of ministers, as a matter of routine.
Anyway why should a progressive person like Jagjivan Ram
want others to touch his feet? I never heard, during his
lifetime, him speaking out against this "injustice" meted
to him. He was not one to take anything he considered
unjust lightly.
I suppose there are sycophants who do that sort of thing
in a corrupt politician-bureaucrat nexus. To the best of
my knowledge and experience (I have/had a few IAS/ICS relatives,
and as a student leader I met a Union Cabinet Minister) this
is a non-issue.
Basically, feet-touching is a matter of personal choice - no one
can make you do it, though small children are often urged to do
so by their parents. When they grow up, they often refrain from
this practice, or restrict it to their immediate family, or just
those they hold in high regard.
> Now you are free to give this story as reported in
> Dalit Voice any intellectual spin -- engineering,
> evolutionary, biological, molecular, computational,
> musical, linguistic, economical, historical, cultural,
> religious, whatever. I don't have anything more
> to add to the story.
Thank you for the story, Mr Singh. It gives valuable
insights into the training of Dalit thinking, for it shows how
they can be instigated by exaggerations and non-issues.
> I'd let the readers use their
> own judgement and interpret the story the way they
> want to.
Wonderful.
My feelings, exactly.
Kulbir Singh
: Mr. Bhatia: I am not prone to dreaming wet or otherwise as I live in a
: real world where there are nation states that include India but do not
: include dream states like Khalisthlooneyland.
If you are not prone to dreaming and you don't want to look
under the ruins of medieval shopping centres of Ghazni,
Kabul and Kandhar -- that is fine. No problem.
Congratulations on your great intelligence in knowing
that in the real world there are nation states that include
India but don't include states like Khalisthlooneyland.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Rgds, Gopal
Kulbir Singh
:>
:> Such is the power of tanks and helicopter gunships
:> that we use them to take away other nations language,
:> culture, traditions, way of life, and surreptitiously
:> replace them with our own; force their children to sing
:> our anthem...salute our flag; send our soldiers in their
:> homes to strip away their resources, dignity and pride.
: Most Sikhs were and are happy in India, where they have prospered not
: only in Punjab but in all other states. India is a voluntary union of
: many states. Their languages, cultures, traditions, ways of life are
: all highly respected. It is also understood that other languages, etc.
: must be respected, or at least, not openly disrespected. The Sikhs
: were no different from all other Indians, in this respect.
Dear Sir,
The qualities of grace, balance, precision, truth and
equanimity are uncommon and when we come across a single
individual who possesses all these qualities -- it is a
rare honour.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Arindam Banerjee.
Kulbir Singh
:> Such is the power of tanks and helicopter gunships
:> that we use them to take away other nations language,
:> culture, traditions, way of life, and surreptitiously
:> replace them with our own; force their children to sing
:> our anthem...salute our flag; send our soldiers in their
:> homes to strip away their resources, dignity and pride.
: What is "our" in this context, but the wishes of some deranged Sikhs?
Sir,
You are so perceptive.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Arindam Banerjee.
Kulbir Singh
:> And lo and behold, such is the power of tanks
:> and helicopter gunships that we also force them
:> to accept our version of events.
:> This is what subjugation is all about.
: I saw a map of the proposed Khalistan, and it was a huge land area
: that included many places where Sikhs were by no means in the
: majority. For that matter, even in Punjab proper they just had
: a slim majority, which they wanted to increase by pure terrorism.
Khalistan, slim majority, pure terrorism, evolutionary
biology, the meanderings of a lunatic, the lure of the
unknown, the call of the wild, the promise of the
adventure, the milking of Bharat Mata...the patriotic
sedition....the chemistry of mathematical physics...
Kulbir Singh
:> And lo and behold, such is the power of tanks
:> and helicopter gunships that we also force them
:> to accept our version of events.
: I have just given a pure summary of events that are too well documented
: in newspapers and also in public memory. It is not any Govt. version; it
: is just my own summary. If you find anything wrong about it, dispute it
: by all means.
The pristine mountain snow, the luscious dense green
forests, the rugged coastline, the soothing melody of
hummingbrids, the rythmic music of dark grey
clouds, the sparkling moonlit nights and the
joyous blissful trance in the realm of gleaming
shining stars.....the words lose their
meaning...the speech becomes a distraction...
Kulbir Singh
:> And lo and behold, such is the power of tanks
:> and helicopter gunships that we also force them
:> to accept our version of events.
:> This is what subjugation is all about.
: Peaceful means failed, and violence was necessary to subjugate the
: Khalistanis.
The violence against the soul...the thunder of a lion,
the crying of the meek..the slavery of the mind..the
geology of the brain...the flight of the cattle...the
mercy of a cow...the swimming of the parrot...the birth
of a camel...the surgery of the cake....the hijack
of a binder....the light of a faucet...
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: Where the Govt. failed was in not nipping this huge, painful
Arindam Banerjee
>
> : I saw a map of the proposed Khalistan, and it was a huge land area
> : that included many places where Sikhs were by no means in the
> : majority. For that matter, even in Punjab proper they just had
> : a slim majority, which they wanted to increase by pure terrorism.
> Khalistan, slim majority, pure terrorism, evolutionary
> biology, the meanderings of a lunatic, the lure of the
> unknown, the call of the wild, the promise of the
> adventure, the milking of Bharat Mata...the patriotic
> sedition....the chemistry of mathematical physics...
Eh, Mr Singh?
ksi...@ml.com
says...
>
>Basically, feet-touching is a matter of personal choice - no one
>can make you do it, though small children are often urged to do
>so by their parents. When they grow up, they often refrain from
>this practice, or restrict it to their immediate family, or just
>those they hold in high regard.
Nonsense! It is obvious when someone is left out of the process or ritual of
giving respect. If I have everybody sitting on a high chair and I assign
someone to a low chair in a corner then technically there is nothing wrong with
it. I could even claim that someone has to sit in the low chair. But in life
perceptions count and it makes a difference.
ksi...@ml.com
says...
>Since I have the privilege of living in a country with
>a superior political system, I can see what the
>people in India cannot see. I can see
>how they may use their own underutilised resources for
>their own good, if they can escape the illogic
>of reservations. They will then build up a vibrant
>economy based upon self-employment, and the private sector.
Nonsense! I've never heard this kind of stupid association of the outcome of
economic success and imposing it as a pre-development condition on a
poverty-ridden country. This is why most people can reasonably convince
themselves of anything, the associations they form are quite ludicrous. Why
don't we take the stupidity further and just claim that if the Indian economy
developed the same GDP as the US, then we will become successful for sure!
Therefore by your argument India did not become a "positive vibrant economy
based upon self-employment" prior to the Mandal reservations due to what ?
Prior to Mandal reservations, India became a Brahminocracy due to what reason ?
The pre-Mandal reservation period clearly shows the Indian experience that given
no reservations, political representation will be denied to the majority of the
populace. And these Brahmins are now complaining because there are dalit and
agrarian leaders representing their populations. They have some nerve! There
should be reservations in politics! It should be ensured that the Parliament
represents the ethnic composition of the Indian population, otherwise it should
be DISMISSED!
de...@india.org
uppercastes are working every unjust, cruel, inhuman way to suppress the
HAVE NOTS, the lower and backward castes.
That's nullifying retrograde effort, there is no synergy in the society no
progressive thoughts for the development of the society.
This society is leading to more conflicts.
>
Kulbir Singh
:> When Sri Singh Sahib Bhai Sahib Mohan Chand Karam
:> Chand Khalsa Gandhiji preaches tolerance and
:> non-violence -- one million people are
:> mercillesly butchered during riots and Mahatmaji
:> becomes the father of the nation.
: I have to agree that Gandhiji was a very bad political leader,
: going by such results as you have pointed out.
: He should have foreseen the riots, and tried to prevent them
: through practical and good political means, as opposed to
: spiritual and moral humbug. He totally neglected the
: distrust between the religious communities, and this blindness
++++++++++++++++++
: caused him to make such errors good politicians would not
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: have committed.
Such is the power of tanks and helicopter gunships
that a person responsible for the merciless butchering
of 1 million people is just "a bad political leader..
who made small errors" but still good enough to be the
father of the nation but the people demanding
respect, dignity and equality are "deranged" and
"maladjusted" who pose a serious danger to the society.
Kulbir Singh
: Since Lalloo is only a bumptious bumpkin, he has no idea at all
: about the basics of parliamentary democracy.
While every other politician is well-versed in the
basics of parliamentary democracy. Too bad for
bumptious bumpkins!!!!
regards,
Kulbir Singh
:He sees this as an
: exercise to make hay just for himself and his castefellows, any
: way he can.
:
: Arindam Banerjee
Kulbir Singh
:
:> Apparently Laloo isn't as successful
:> as his detractors might want to give
:> him credit for. Or may be Laloo needs
:> to change his strategy and start preaching
:> tolerance and non-violence instead of
:> genocide.
: Certainly. He can do that from jail, where he'll belong, if the
: charges against him are proven beyond doubt.
Yes, and once Laloo is in jail -- all the corruption in
Indian politics will vanish and India will become a
paradise.
ksi...@ml.com
It has already been proven beyond doubt to every voter in Bihar that the
judiciary of India has too many cow sympathisers who send opposing politicians
to jail just a few days before elections. Laloo Yadav has already cleaned up a
good deal of Brahmin scum from Bihari politics, the reservations have ensured
that they get cleaned up from the administrative machinery of India, and now we
have to figure out a way to throw them out of the damn judiciary!
Kulbir Singh
:>
:> The recommendations of Mandal commission are
:> aimed to imrprove the conditions of lower-caste
:> people and these recommendations have the blessings
:> of one of the most honest Indian politician
:> of great integrity -- VP Singh.
: A chaps who resigns when faced with any problem; a man who licks
: feet and afterwards stabs in the back; a man who to win power
: initiates the worst kind of divisive politics designed for pemament
: discord - no Mr Singh, I cannot think highly about that man.
Yes, I can see why you can't think highly
about VP Singh. You don't like divisive
politics -- politics designed for permanent
discord.
ksi...@ml.com
>
>In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>
>: Since Lalloo is only a bumptious bumpkin, he has no idea at all
>: about the basics of parliamentary democracy.
>
>While every other politician is well-versed in the
>basics of parliamentary democracy. Too bad for
>bumptious bumpkins!!!!
I hate to break it to this fool, but Laloo Yadav knows the laws of India better
than the Brahmin Bannerjee. He has a law degree to prove it, and considerable
experience fighting the various cases his opposition has charged him with.
Laloo Yadav has fought more cases regarding constitutionality of decisions than
Arindam Bannerjee has even read about! But this kind of false exaggerated sense
of one's abilities seems common within the Brahmin caste despite repeated
defeats that would cause ordinary men to think otherwise.
ksi...@ml.com
Correct, it is easy to hide behind the mask of politics and blame the effects of
your socio-economic strategies on the people when it gets out of control!
Kulbir Singh
: Kulbir Singh <kbh...@sfu.ca> wrote in message news:<9fu1eu$16k$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
:>For the future
:> to be less dark than the present and the
:> past -- an immediate treatment of this
:> debilitating affliction is essential.
: Yes, throw out the Indian Constitution, and have another where
: the word "caste" is not mentioned.
Yes, an excellent idea. Once we are done away with
the mild constitutional safegaurds against
caste discrimination that exist in the present
constitution -- we are free to practice our
beliefs and our progress and prosperity
(which is being hindered by the word caste
in the present constitution) is guaranteed.
We didn't have the caste-based constitution
for several thousand years and as we all know, no
one bothered about caste.
ksi...@ml.com
Maybe the US should throw out the word "race" and maybe "religion" from its
constitution as well. That way Mr. Brahmin Bannerjee could redefine
Parliamentary Democracy and Presidential Democracy all at the same time!
Kulbir Singh
: ksi...@ml.com wrote in message news:<lLMS6.3739$v4.1...@www.newsranger.com>...
:>Nobody has suffered more politically due to the stance that he has
:> taken for the backward rustic populace. Unlike other backward leaders,
:> he has never compromised when pressed due to political circumstance.
:> Like other politicians it was certainly possible for him to cut
:> deals either at the state level or at the center. That shows that
:> he has integrity.
: Unlike most politicians, he has been in and out of jail on charges of huge
: embezzlements. He has flouted democratic norms as blatantly as possible; by
: not resigning when chargesheeted (as BJP officials did under tehelka.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
: accusations) and instead very cleverly installed his wife to the post of CM,
+++++++++++
: making a mockery of the entire electoral process. The good thing here is
: that the stupidity of the Constitution has been showed up.
Sir, you are being a bit unfair here. We can't expect
every Indian politician to live up to the high standards
of ethics, properiety and patriotism set by BJP
functionaries. We should realize that there are also
lesser mortals among us.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: ...of idiots.
: Arindam Banerjee
Kulbir Singh
: ksi...@ml.com wrote in message news:<lLMS6.3739$v4.1...@www.newsranger.com>...
: I never said that he was a Soniatype Congressman! Lalloo is
: no different from Indira et al when it comes to power-grabbing for himself
: and his castefellows. He is far worse, actually.
:>And he reacts immediately thus exhibiting no fear or
:> hesitation, which are very important characteristics by themselves.
: He could hardly be any kind of leader, if he were otherwise. The question is,
: where is he leading his followers? If his only slogan is to kill brahmins,
: then he cannot expect to win the support of rational people.
I agree. The support of rational people is essential
for parliamentary democracy. It is the rational people
who nurture and sustain a free, prosperous and progressive
society.
ksi...@ml.com
Yes, apparently some of us lesser mortals have to get married, raise a family
instead of spending their entire life keeping rundis. We cannot all follow in
the footsteps of the great Brahmin Devata Vajpayee!
ksi...@ml.com
Brahmins do not like discord! They like all people to agree that they are the
most suited to rule and most suited to do just about everything else! They want
everyone integrated, ONE NATION, UNDER ONE BRAHMIN! Once you disagree, you are a
problem and you simply refuse to see the light!
ksi...@ml.com
Yes, the support of rational people is indeed essential. And most rational
people have decided that Brahmins are evil and they don't even want to see them
anywhere in Bihari politics. We don't want to hear from Brahmin women about how
they are raped and had children buried somewhere in Bengal or that the political
associates of this or that backward caste leader have been raping them for days
without any physical proof. We don't want to hear from Brahmin men how their
hitmen have testified regarding Muslim MPs in Bihar. We don't want to hear from
Brahmin men the latest errors in social etiquette made by Laloo Yadav and we
don't want to hear their shivering tales of Muslims terrorizing them!
IN SHORT, THE LESS SAID BY A DAMN BRAHMIN THE BETTER! THAT IS THE MOST RATIONAL
CONCLUSION ONE CAN COME TO WHEN ONE EXAMINES THE PAST EVENTS AND INDEED PAST
HISTORY! THESE PEOPLE ARE PATHOLOGICAL LIARS AND PRONE TO DRAMATICS!
ksi...@ml.com
>CONCLUSION ONE CAN COME TO WHEN ONE EXAMINES THE PAST EVENTS AND INDEED PAST
>HISTORY! THESE PEOPLE ARE PATHOLOGICAL LIARS AND PRONE TO DRAMATICS!
To believe the words of a caste historically known for cowardice and
backstabbing is not rationality, it is bad judgement. So far, the Brahminocracy
has claimed the following regarding Laloo Yadav in Bihari politics:
1) Laloo Yadav only won because he captured voting booths
2) Laloo Yadav won because he successfully terrorised the Bihari populace
3) Laloo Yadav has billions of dollars from the animal husbandry scam
4) Laloo Yadav's brother in law is a goon, and his right hand man.
5) Mrityunjaya Yadav, the son of an RJD politician, raped some Brahmin woman and
indeed many other politicians from the RJD also raped her.
6) Laloo Yadav can't have his daughter married because he is a terror and all
the Yadav men in Bihar are afraid to marry his daugther.
7) Laloo Yadav wins because of Sahabuddin who is a Muslim goon.
And now for the reality check:
1) Laloo Yadav won despite the election commission's reforms which many
political spectators expected to break his ruling party's back.
2) Most of the stories from Bihar associated with massacres seem to have Bihari
Bhumihars as the troublemakers.
3) Nobody has found a cent in connection with the fodder scam associated with
Laloo Yadav and that is despite trying for several years with all central
government CBI officials claiming to receive threats to their lives everyday.
4) Laloo Yadav had a fallout with his brother in law, supposedly his right hand
man, the terror of Bihar who beat up a few JNU students in Delhi.
5) There was no evidence of any rape by Mrityunjaya Yadav. When pressed for
evidence, the woman claimed that some dead child born of his rape was buried in
the West Bengal cemetery, this "lead" also turned out to be a false one and was
verified by the WB police.
6) Laloo Yadav's daughter eventually married an NRI computer professional.
7) Sahabuddin also has had somewhat of a fallout with Laloo Yadav making it
quite apparent that he is as independent as every other Bihari politican.
And now of course their latest claim revolves around the confession of a Bihari
Brahmin hitman! Now given all these claims of Brahmins regarding just Bihari
politics alone, is trusting their claims rational ? Is it good judgement ? And
this is just Bihar, I can also proceed to UP which witnessed the exact same
political tactics by Brahminocracy to attempt to dislodge the popular
government. In my opinion if Brahmins have not lost all credibility, it must be
due to the person being convinced being either a fool or a coward prone to
believing horror stories and shivering all night!
Arindam Banerjee
> In article <1fbb6f69.0106...@posting.google.com>, Arindam Banerjee
> says...
> >Since I have the privilege of living in a country with
> >a superior political system, I can see what the
> >people in India cannot see. I can see
> >how they may use their own underutilised resources for
> >their own good, if they can escape the illogic
> >of reservations. They will then build up a vibrant
> >economy based upon self-employment, and the private sector.
>
> Nonsense! I've never heard this kind of stupid association of the outcome of
> economic success and imposing it as a pre-development condition on a
> poverty-ridden country.
You have not heard, then, of the reason why each and every firstworld
country
is a firstworld country. They never had the reservations policy! It
was
feudalism, then mercantilism, capitalism and now self-employment. The
whole
idea of reservations would be ridiculous both now, and always in the
past,
in all European countries. In fact, they had the absolute opposite of
reservations - they had big aristocracies with lots of class
differences.
What helped the lower classes was not reservations, but democracy
which
initiated socialist policies that went for better wages for the
workers on a
continuing basis.
>This is why most people can reasonably convince
> themselves of anything, the associations they form are quite ludicrous.
Bluff and bluster are the only things Lalloo and his supporters have.
I cannot
compete with them, there.
>Why
> don't we take the stupidity further and just claim that if the Indian economy
> developed the same GDP as the US, then we will become successful for sure!
The question is, how to develop the same GNP.
> Therefore by your argument India did not become a "positive vibrant economy
> based upon self-employment" prior to the Mandal reservations due to what ?
There were many reasons. In a way Mandal reservations will create a
positive
vibrant economy based upon self-employment, when the upper castes will
cease
to seek govt. jobs. However, with Mandalitis the political scene is
pretty disastrous, (poor law and order, horrible infrastructure, low
leadership, huge corruption (Lalloo breaks all limits, at least as per
allegations), high inefficiency,...)
The main reasons for India's lack of economic growth prior to
Mandalitis were:
- political (dynasticism, casteism, communism... all bad things)
- technical (we started with a very low technical base)
- initial poverty (we had nothing except violence when we got
independence)
- rehabilitating displaced people (displaced because of partition)
- weak infrastructure (nothing like firstworld countries)
- weak education (illiteracy hinders advancement)
- lack of self-confidence (due to centuries of foreign rule)
- wars with neighbours
- internal strife (language, religion, caste)
- brain drain
- civil war (Kashmir, NE, Punjab)
- unproductive use of resources (we use 5000 year old technology in
the fields)
Oh well, that was for starters. After writing all that, I wonder how
we still
manage to have a life expectancy in the sixties, these days. Surely
some
credit should go to the hardworking and committed people who manage
things
despite the politicians and their corrupt cronies - I mean good
bureaucrats,
and the wonderful ordinary people of India.
> Prior to Mandal reservations, India became a Brahminocracy due to what reason ?
Historically, some brahmins always helped the rulers of Indian states
to run the administration. That happened in the Hindu period, the
Mughal period
and also the British period. If anything, in modern India their
influence has
greatly diminshed. For that matter, there are hardly any practising
brahmins
left. People are brahmins only through their names, these days. Very
good
thing, too. This means that other occupations, formerly denied to
brahmins,
are now open.
> The pre-Mandal reservation period clearly shows the Indian experience that given
> no reservations, political representation will be denied to the majority of the
> populace.
If Mandal reservations was only for political reasons, then there
would have
been no problems. Reserved constituencies always existed, for the
purpose of
giving political representation to diverse groups.
>And these Brahmins are now complaining because there are dalit and
> agrarian leaders representing their populations. They have some nerve!
No, they are not doing that at all.
There
> should be reservations in politics! It should be ensured that the Parliament
> represents the ethnic composition of the Indian population, otherwise it should
> be DISMISSED!
The Parliament has always represented the ethnic composition. That is
not
the issue. Mandalitis means enshrining backwardness in the
population, by
reserving govt. jobs and university admissions for the backwards, for
(as
we can see) all time to come. The big political game now is for a
caste
to declare itself as backward, so as to get privileges.
Arindam Banerjee.
Arindam Banerjee
> >: no different from Indira et al when it comes to power-grabbing for himself
> >: and his castefellows. He is far worse, actually.
>
> >:>And he reacts immediately thus exhibiting no fear or
> >:> hesitation, which are very important characteristics by themselves.
>
> >: He could hardly be any kind of leader, if he were otherwise. The question is,
> >: where is he leading his followers? If his only slogan is to kill brahmins,
> >: then he cannot expect to win the support of rational people.
> >
> >I agree. The support of rational people is essential
> >for parliamentary democracy. It is the rational people
> >who nurture and sustain a free, prosperous and progressive
> >society.
>
> Yes, the support of rational people is indeed essential. And most rational
> people have decided that Brahmins are evil and they don't even want to see them
> anywhere in Bihari politics.
How democratic!
We don't want to hear from Brahmin women about how
> they are raped and had children buried somewhere in Bengal or that the political
> associates of this or that backward caste leader have been raping them for days
> without any physical proof.
So brahmin women can be raped, and their children murdered, as the Yadavs
please? But of course, Lalloo has said that brahmins should be murdered.
Not that anyone takes him seriously, for he is only a nuisance, albeit a
potentially dangerous one.
>We don't want to hear from Brahmin men how their
> hitmen have testified regarding Muslim MPs in Bihar. We don't want to hear from
> Brahmin men the latest errors in social etiquette made by Laloo Yadav and we
> don't want to hear their shivering tales of Muslims terrorizing them!
I don't think anyone wants to say anything to the Lalloos. They are only fit
for mirth and merriment.
> IN SHORT, THE LESS SAID BY A DAMN BRAHMIN THE BETTER! THAT IS THE MOST RATIONAL
> CONCLUSION ONE CAN COME TO WHEN ONE EXAMINES THE PAST EVENTS AND INDEED PAST
> HISTORY! THESE PEOPLE ARE PATHOLOGICAL LIARS AND PRONE TO DRAMATICS!
So why are YOU screaming? Are you a brahmin? :) :)
Arindam Banerjee
Correct. Divisive politics ultimately means foreign conquest, and
slavery for the people. Which is what we may well expect when the
Lalloos are elected - see, how readily he crawls to a stupid foreign
woman for political support.
Arindam Banerjee
But Arindam Banerjee is not calling for the genocide of Lalloos, unlike the
Lalloos who are calling for the genocide of brahmins.
I don't think they teach the legality of genocide in even the kind of law
school graced by Lalloo. I suppose Lalloo may have seen some film of Hitler,
that seems to be the only education he got.
The Lalloos think that threatening brahmins with genocide will make them
shiver; the brahmins must stitch their sides, to prevent themselves
from bursting with laughter.
When Biharis realise that chosing Lalloos to run loose in high places can
only make them lose, the rest of us will know that they have come to their
senses.
Anyway, there are no more Lalloos loose in Jharkhand, his writ runs elsewhere,
and that means not having to carry a few kilos of crap on one's Jharkhandi
head.
Arindam Banerjee
> In article <9g5nns$c8l$4...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, Kulbir Singh says...
> >
> >In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >
> >:>
> >:> The recommendations of Mandal commission are
> >:> aimed to imrprove the conditions of lower-caste
> >:> people and these recommendations have the blessings
> >:> of one of the most honest Indian politician
> >:> of great integrity -- VP Singh.
>
> >: A chaps who resigns when faced with any problem; a man who licks
> >: feet and afterwards stabs in the back; a man who to win power
> >: discord - no Mr Singh, I cannot think highly about that man.
> >
> >Yes, I can see why you can't think highly
> >about VP Singh. You don't like divisive
> >politics -- politics designed for permanent
> >discord.
>
>
> Brahmins do not like discord!
"Jagat meiN hai ghar ki phhoot boori" - Bharatendu Harishchandra.
I don't know about the first modern Hindi poet's caste, though.
Discord for the sake of discord, or personal gain at others' expense,
is not liked by rational people, anywhere. Discord because of
injustice caused by people in power, is another matter altogether.
As for Mr V P Singh, I don't think highly of him because he is a two-faced
treacherous person. He cannot be said to have integrity. People like D K Barooah
(India is Indira and Indira is India) and R K Dhawan, being total sycophants,
can be credited with integrity of a kind.
>They like all people to agree that they are the
> most suited to rule and most suited to do just about everything else!
That is what the Lalloos want.
> They want
> everyone integrated, ONE NATION, UNDER ONE BRAHMIN! Once you disagree, you are a
> problem and you simply refuse to see the light!
Again, this is Lalloo-thinking. Brahmin thinking is more like what was
presented by Shri Bharat Bhushan in the famous song "Yeh duniya agar mil
bhi jaye toe kya hai", which inspires the following lines:
This world -
Of Lalloos, Jyoti Basoos, Jayalilathas and Sonias;
Of buffoons, bandits, thieves and chootiyas -
If you get this world, so what?
So bloody what?
Arindam Banerjee.
Arya Raychaudhuri
Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> ksi...@ml.com wrote in message news:<LrpV6.5218$pb1.1...@www.newsranger.com>...
> > In article <1fbb6f69.0106...@posting.google.com>, Arindam Banerjee
> > says...
> > >Since I have the privilege of living in a country with
> > >a superior political system, I can see what the
> > >people in India cannot see. I can see
> > >how they may use their own underutilised resources for
> > >their own good, if they can escape the illogic
> > >of reservations. They will then build up a vibrant
> > >economy based upon self-employment, and the private sector.
> >
> > Nonsense! I've never heard this kind of stupid association of the outcome of
> > economic success and imposing it as a pre-development condition on a
> > poverty-ridden country.
>
> You have not heard, then, of the reason why each and every firstworld
> country
> is a firstworld country. They never had the reservations policy!
This is a factual error. In the US, which is a first world country,
the official affirmative action is still in place. Also, the way they
sometimes go out of their way to suppress hi-tech "aliens" through
information racism and such means, it may appear that they themselves
are on some kind of reservation.
ksi...@ml.com
says...
>
>> >: I never said that he was a Soniatype Congressman! Lalloo is
>> >: no different from Indira et al when it comes to power-grabbing for himself
>> >: and his castefellows. He is far worse, actually.
>>
>> >:>And he reacts immediately thus exhibiting no fear or
>> >:> hesitation, which are very important characteristics by themselves.
>>
>> >: He could hardly be any kind of leader, if he were otherwise. The question is,
>> >: where is he leading his followers? If his only slogan is to kill brahmins,
>> >: then he cannot expect to win the support of rational people.
>> >
>> >I agree. The support of rational people is essential
>> >for parliamentary democracy. It is the rational people
>> >who nurture and sustain a free, prosperous and progressive
>> >society.
>>
>> Yes, the support of rational people is indeed essential. And most rational
>> people have decided that Brahmins are evil and they don't even want to see them
>> anywhere in Bihari politics.
>
>How democratic!
Yes, it is apparent that the masses hate Brahmins. Why should we change the
natural course of things!
>We don't want to hear from Brahmin women about how
>> they are raped and had children buried somewhere in Bengal or that the political
>> associates of this or that backward caste leader have been raping them for days
>> without any physical proof.
>
>So brahmin women can be raped, and their children murdered, as the Yadavs
>please? But of course, Lalloo has said that brahmins should be murdered.
>Not that anyone takes him seriously, for he is only a nuisance, albeit a
>potentially dangerous one.
As the old story goes, when a boy cries wolf and there is no wolf, one day the
wolf will come and he will cry wolf and he'll be eaten by one. "Jasa karani
tasa bhoga vidhata!"
>>We don't want to hear from Brahmin men how their
>> hitmen have testified regarding Muslim MPs in Bihar. We don't want to hear from
>> Brahmin men the latest errors in social etiquette made by Laloo Yadav and we
>> don't want to hear their shivering tales of Muslims terrorizing them!
>
>I don't think anyone wants to say anything to the Lalloos. They are only fit
>for mirth and merriment.
But Brahmins are not even good for merriment!
>> IN SHORT, THE LESS SAID BY A DAMN BRAHMIN THE BETTER! THAT IS THE MOST RATIONAL
>> CONCLUSION ONE CAN COME TO WHEN ONE EXAMINES THE PAST EVENTS AND INDEED PAST
>> HISTORY! THESE PEOPLE ARE PATHOLOGICAL LIARS AND PRONE TO DRAMATICS!
>
>So why are YOU screaming? Are you a brahmin? :) :)
BECAUSE IT IS TIME THAT EVERYONE REALIZED THAT BRAHMIN CASTE PRODUCES NOTHING
BUT COWARDS AND PATHOLOGICAL LIARS! ALL THEIR ARGUMENTS ARE INTENDED TO EITHER
JUSTIFY THEIR COWARDICE OR COVER UP THEIR LIES! AND THE MORE PEOPLE WHO REALIZE
IT THE BETTER!
The Brahmin character, whether he be from Bihar, UP, Punjab or Tamil Nadu, is
essentially the same. They are fearful creatures who want to come up with a
philosophy that will prevent people from beating them up and giving them a
privileged position despite being mentally inept and physically incapable. Thus
men like Vajpayee are their favored leaders for his mere existence justifies
intellectual, physical and carnal weakness. Thus every Brahmin can relate to
him and feel better about himself.
It is the nature of the weak to stab people in the back. It is in the nature of
the crooked to lie. It is in the nature of the coward to rely on pretenses.
Brahmins have stabbed the Bharatiya people in the back, they have lied to cover
it up, and they have pretended spirituality. That is what they have done, and
that is their continued behaviour in Indian politics. It is a natural outcome
of their nature. THAT IS ALL!
ksi...@ml.com
>> In article <9g5ndr$c8l$2...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, Kulbir Singh says...
>> >
>> >In soc.culture.punjab Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >: Since Lalloo is only a bumptious bumpkin, he has no idea at all
>> >: about the basics of parliamentary democracy.
>> >
>> >While every other politician is well-versed in the
>> >basics of parliamentary democracy. Too bad for
>> >bumptious bumpkins!!!!
>>
>> I hate to break it to this fool, but Laloo Yadav knows the laws of India better
>> than the Brahmin Bannerjee. He has a law degree to prove it, and considerable
>> experience fighting the various cases his opposition has charged him with.
>> Laloo Yadav has fought more cases regarding constitutionality of decisions than
>> Arindam Bannerjee has even read about! But this kind of false exaggerated sense
>> of one's abilities seems common within the Brahmin caste despite repeated
>> defeats that would cause ordinary men to think otherwise.
>
>But Arindam Banerjee is not calling for the genocide of Lalloos, unlike the
>Lalloos who are calling for the genocide of brahmins.
That is because Arindam Banerjee comes from the cowardly Brahmin race which
cannot think of a direct consequence such as genocide. It relies on stabbing a
few rulers in the back, feeding off of the common populace like parasites,
keeping a few devadasi rundis, while maintaining pretenses of superiority by
avoiding touching this or that race of hardier men. The rest of us Hindus all
know the type, the average Hindu Brahmin.
>I don't think they teach the legality of genocide in even the kind of law
>school graced by Lalloo. I suppose Lalloo may have seen some film of Hitler,
>that seems to be the only education he got.
Hitler seems more admired by Brahmins like Bala Gangadhara Tilaka. People who
come from a laboring backgrounds like Laloo Yadav canont develop the airs of
supriority of a Brahmin from the German Aryan race due to studying linguistics
while living on free handouts! But they do get a very good education in social
perceptions and social status mad how it is maintained by the lazy descendants
of self made men.
>The Lalloos think that threatening brahmins with genocide will make them
>shiver; the brahmins must stitch their sides, to prevent themselves
>from bursting with laughter.
We are not concerned with Brahmins shivering, the mere presence of a meat-eating
Dalit male can achieve that quite easily. WE REALLY DO JUST WANT TO GET RID OF
THE BUGGERS ONCE AND FOR ALL!
>When Biharis realise that chosing Lalloos to run loose in high places can
>only make them lose, the rest of us will know that they have come to their
>senses.
We Biharis have every intention to make the Brahmins lose all their senses.
>Anyway, there are no more Lalloos loose in Jharkhand, his writ runs elsewhere,
>and that means not having to carry a few kilos of crap on one's Jharkhandi
>head.
Yes, now that Jharkhand is the envy of all the world, I am sure that every
Jharkhandi head is now thinking the same thing, HOW TO GET RID OF THE BHANGI
BJP. The latest seems to be that the Samata Party wants to part ways with the
Brahmins. Go figure!