No offence to you personally Srikant, but are you taking the piss.
Gay is a concept that does not exist in our culture.
regards,
suresh.
Suresh Kannan
Aerospace Engineering
University of Manchester
www.demon.co.uk/roja
> tro...@powertech.no (Srikant) wrote:
>
> >Hi
> >I'm Srikant from Oslo, Norway.
> >Are there any Tamil gays out there?
> >I am 25 years old and I have been living in Oslo for a long time. I
> >would like to meet other gay-boys from Sri Lanka.
> >Please write me!
> >Srikant
>
> No offence to you personally Srikant, but are you taking the piss.
> Gay is a concept that does not exist in our culture.
>
> regards,
> suresh.
Geez, This is an explosive topic. Hmmm... I wonder if we are going to be
facing same kind of problems with regard to gays in India too. I know
there are Gays in Bombay with Ashok ??? ??? as a leading controversial
spokesman. I dunno...
____________________
_______________ Good Day !
__________ Leo.
_____
____________________________________________________
Time flies like an arrow, Fruit flies like a banana.
you gay guys on the net are so lazy. everytime this thread comes up, *i*
have to stand up for y'all. just because you send me bombay sisters
tapes, you think you've bought me off.
> On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Suresh Kannan wrote:
>
> > tro...@powertech.no (Srikant) wrote:
> >
> > >Hi
> > >I'm Srikant from Oslo, Norway.
> > >Are there any Tamil gays out there?
> > >I am 25 years old and I have been living in Oslo for a long time. I
> > >would like to meet other gay-boys from Sri Lanka.
> > >Please write me!
> > >Srikant
> >
> > No offence to you personally Srikant, but are you taking the piss.
> > Gay is a concept that does not exist in our culture.
really, sweetheart? aren't you the same guy who is making me repeat
myself in another thread? perhaps you just like to incite my
irritation. shall i offer you a reading list? where do i begin? well,
there's margaret trewick's anthropological work, there are the homoerotic
poems of kshetrayya (and basavanna if you want to discuss south indian
culture more generally, or the epics and puranas if you want to discuss
hindu culture more generally), there's the ombothus of madras beach,
there's...well, i thought mr. rajan was a dmk follower. surely you
remember what mr. karunanidhi said about a certain wedding at tirupati
between 2 tons of fun and a dusky rajnikantesque chubby chaser?
i will even repost some literary citations:
gay literature in Tamil. Karichan Kunju wrote a
novel in '60s titled "Pasitha manudam". The hero of the novel is a
bisexual. It created lot of controversy then and got him into lot of
trouble. By the way he was my Tamil teacher.
Recently, Su.Samuthiram wrote a novel titled "Vadamalli", Vanathi press.
The hero is a homosexual. I saw the review of this novel in march, 1995
Subamangala issue.
maybe suresh is just disillusioned b/c he can't find a nice tamil
boyfriend. never ye fear, sweetie, mr. right is out there.
> >
> > regards,
> > suresh.
>
> Geez, This is an explosive topic. Hmmm... I wonder if we are going to be
> facing same kind of problems with regard to gays in India too. I know
> there are Gays in Bombay with Ashok ??? ??? as a leading controversial
> spokesman. I dunno...
why do you need to go to bombay, when bangalore's disco is much closer?
or the bloody train station toilets in madras? or madras beach?
On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Suresh Kannan wrote:
> Gay is a concept that does not exist in our culture.
This is far from correct. Check out the directory maintained online by
Trikone and located at http://www.rahul.net/trikone/resources.html. It
contains addresses of organisations (about 10) based in India, in addition
to several more in the US, UK and Canada.
L Ramakrishnan
<deleted>
* gay literature in Tamil. Karichan Kunju wrote a
* novel in '60s titled "Pasitha manudam". The hero of the novel is a
* bisexual. It created lot of controversy then and got him into lot of
* trouble. By the way he was my Tamil teacher.
I can't believe that in spite of learning Tamil from Karichan
Kunju, you came up with that *cute* answering machine message:-)
* Recently, Su.Samuthiram wrote a novel titled "Vadamalli", Vanathi press.
* The hero is a homosexual. I saw the review of this novel in march, 1995
* Subamangala issue.
marappasu by thi.jaanakiraaman talks much about the heroine's
bisexual inclinations. More like, the heroine loves human body,
male or female, alike.
--badri
--
--------------------------------------------------
S.Badrinarayanan
Graduate Student
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
Cornell University
--------------------------------------------------
> Geez, This is an explosive topic. Hmmm... I wonder if we are going to be
> facing same kind of problems with regard to gays in India too. I know
> there are Gays in Bombay with Ashok ??? ??? as a leading controversial
> spokesman. I dunno...Leo, I think, is referring to Ashok Row Kavi. In a country where there is
uproar in the parliament over sex education in schools, homosexuality is
defnitely a controversial topic.
Wonder when Indian politicians would give up their Victorian morals when it
comes to sex. They don't seem to have morals when it comes to corruption.
Thaths
> Shabari Kumar (sm...@columbia.edu) wrote:
>
> <deleted>
>
> * gay literature in Tamil. Karichan Kunju wrote a
> * novel in '60s titled "Pasitha manudam". The hero of the novel is a
> * bisexual. It created lot of controversy then and got him into lot of
> * trouble. By the way he was my Tamil teacher.
>
> I can't believe that in spite of learning Tamil from Karichan
> Kunju, you came up with that *cute* answering machine message:-)
just to clarify, he wasn't my teacher. i was quoting from a post that
someone else had sent me.
> You are wrong. What >evidence do you have for the
> non-existence of the concept in the culture? Please substantiate. Don't
> tell me that there is no such concept among Tamils because "Sangam
> Literature" does not talk about it.
>
> > Geez, This is an explosive topic. Hmmm... I wonder if we are going to be
> > facing same kind of problems with regard to gays in India too. I know
> > there are Gays in Bombay with Ashok ??? ??? as a leading controversial
> > spokesman. I dunno...Leo, I think, is referring to Ashok Row Kavi. In a country where there is
> uproar in the parliament over sex education in schools, homosexuality is
> defnitely a controversial topic.
>
> Wonder when Indian politicians would give up their Victorian morals when it
> comes to sex. They don't seem to have morals when it comes to corruption.
>
> Thaths
Evidence? Let me put it this way. Even the animals don't do it. The only animal which experts
thought did it was the hyena... which was disproved recently.... by a french couple who studied
lions and hyenas for 18 years (this documentary won an award last year), I believe. I have
recorded this incredible documentary. It defines the relationshipship between lions and hyenas
and their environment.. DIGRESSING!!!!!!
Historical I have not read about any evidence. The closest is about eunuchs caressing the
phallus, and scrotum of the royalty while they are having a massage ...or something to that
effect. Please don't cite any recent references... or some movie made last year or so...
That is not culture. Homosexuality is not culture... I call it counter culture or the
underground. While the act is non-human, its the humanity in us that decides whether to accept
it or not. As a norm, a fad ...whatever. In the same vein why not bestiality??? as part of
culture. Freak shows by gypsies... have for hundreds of years displayed bestiality, but only as
an act. That is much later than current literary work in southern india.
As I said it's the humanity in us that gives credibility to homosexuality. I personally am
against homosexuality, but individual freedom is my first priority. So I say, unto each their
religion.
--
*******************************************************************************
All views/opinions expressed by me are mine and mine only. Those who disagree,
please pick a number and await your turn. - Shivram.
*******************************************************************************
>just to clarify, he wasn't my gay teacher.
> i was quoting from a post that
>someone else had sent me.
Badri,
you don't need to be ashamed of yourself for being
a gay, there is nothing wrong with it, since your
leader Jeyalalitha herself a homosexual person, i mean
there is a rumor that Jey and sasikala are lisbian partners.
(Its good to see homosexual ruling T'nadu.)
I am not gay person but i think gay people should
have equal rights as non-gay people. T'nadu
is a good place for gays where people democratically
elected a Homosexual as there leader.
--
Anpin nanpan
Sathi S. Sathiyavirathan
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~sathiyas/index7.html
> Thathachari wrote:
> > > > Gay is a concept that does not exist in our culture.Sorry Suresh.
>
> > You are wrong. What >evidence do you have for the
> > non-existence of the concept in the culture? Please substantiate. Don't
> > tell me that there is no such concept among Tamils because "Sangam
> > Literature" does not talk about it.
> >
> > > Geez, This is an explosive topic. Hmmm... I wonder if we are going to be
> > > facing same kind of problems with regard to gays in India too. I know
> > > there are Gays in Bombay with Ashok ??? ??? as a leading controversial
> > > spokesman. I dunno...Leo, I think, is referring to Ashok Row Kavi. In a country where there is
> > uproar in the parliament over sex education in schools, homosexuality is
> > defnitely a controversial topic.
> >
> > Wonder when Indian politicians would give up their Victorian morals when it
> > comes to sex. They don't seem to have morals when it comes to corruption.
> >
> > Thaths
>
> Evidence? Let me put it this way. Even the animals don't do it. The only animal which experts
actually, they do. primates of all kinds, pigs, cows (an amusing article
in world press review about this), right down the food chain to storks.
exclusive homosexuality is more rare but has been observed in storks
which mate for life and some primates. however, i am really not sure why
the animal kingdom is the model for human behavior. animals do lots of
things, like incest, that we certainly don't approve for human behavior.
> thought did it was the hyena... which was disproved recently.... by a french couple who studied
> lions and hyenas for 18 years (this documentary won an award last year), I believe. I have
> recorded this incredible documentary. It defines the relationshipship between lions and hyenas
> and their environment.. DIGRESSING!!!!!!
>
> Historical I have not read about any evidence. The closest is about eunuch
however, your limited reading is not quite the same thing as their being
no evidence, now is it? sticking to the indian tradition, there are clear
references to men boinking men and women boinking women in everything
from the Jaiminiya Brahmana to the Mahabharata to the Manusmriti to the
Arthashastra to the Padma Purana to the Susruta to the Bhikkuvinaya to
Buddhaghosa's edicts, as well as more ambiguous
references to homoerotic behavior and gay identity in other texts. I
grant to you that most of the ref. are not "gay positive", but they
certainly acknowledge the existence of homosexual behavior.
In Bhakti poetry, such as Basavanna's, the trope of male homosexuality
and bisexuality is often used, and indeed, homosexuality was sometimes a
rite of tantric worship. Tantric-influenced temples (Hindu or Buddhist)
show female worship of the yoni (you know, with the tongue) as well as
male.
as far babar's little friend and sufi poets, well, you know, so i won't
bother. as for the chapti namah, a 18th century poem by sheik jurat,
well...couldn't the net cops arrest me for that?
s caressing the
> phallus, and scrotum of the royalty while they are having a massage ...or something to that
> effect. Please don't cite any recent references... or some movie made last year or so...
> That is not culture. Homosexuality is not culture... I call it counter culture or the
> underground. While the act is non-human, its the humanity in us that decides whether to accept
> it or not. As a norm, a fad ...whatever. In the same vein why not bestiality??? as part of
> culture. Freak shows by gypsies... have for hundreds of years displayed bestiality, but only as
> an act. That is much later than current literary work in southern india.
>
> As I said it's the humanity in us that gives credibility to homosexuality. I personally am
hold on, either it's the humanity in us or the act is not human, which is
it? the difference between bestiality and homosexuality is that a human
adult can reasonably be expected to be able to give consent. this is
quite a difference. i won't be corny and mention that humans are also
generally capable of language (i mean is that a plus or a minus? :)).
I have to disagree. Could you point to the article you speak off. The discover
article I related too was very recent, as recent as Nov 95. Young hyena cubs
were shown 'practicing the act', though there was no contact. The commentary
went as follows (to the effect) ' researchers for a long time have pointed to
hyenas as a solid example of homosexuality, but this is far from the truth'. The
last example of animal homosexuality only proves untrue'. 'The very term
animal instinct is exactly that. Animals only copulate for procreation unlike
humans who do it for pleasure and procreation. Another scene was about lions. A
male lion joining the pride brutually kills three cubs in the pride. Moments
later the lioness 'flirts outrageously' with the lions, realizing that
procreation is imperative. One would expect otherwise. DIGRESSSINGGGGGG!!!
> however, i am really not sure why
> the animal kingdom is the model for human behavior. animals do lots of
> things, like incest, that we certainly don't approve for human behavior.
While I agree, the whole point was to establish the basic difference between
humans and animals. The ability to think rationally..common sense.. an ability
to discern between right and wrong. In the case of incest.... the motive is
procreation. It's the same difference that defines the behaviour of humans as
far as homosexuality or incest is concerned. This includes cannibalization.
> however, your limited reading is not quite the same thing as their being
> no evidence, now is it? sticking to the indian tradition, there are clear
> references to men boinking men and women boinking women in everything
> from the Jaiminiya Brahmana to the Mahabharata to the Manusmriti to the
> Arthashastra to the Padma Purana to the Susruta to the Bhikkuvinaya to
> Buddhaghosa's edicts, as well as more ambiguous
> references to homoerotic behavior and gay identity in other texts. I
> grant to you that most of the ref. are not "gay positive", but they
> certainly acknowledge the existence of homosexual behavior.
I haven't read all of teh works that you talk of. I will surely read them when I
get my hands on them. From my readings, I was saying that the references were
veiled. The closest description of the physical act was about the eunuchs. What
I was trying to establish was that this is not the norm. This is not culture.
The fact that they 'acknowledge the existence of homosexual behaviour' does not
mean that it is an acceptable tradition that is passed from generation to
generation. It's man's (and women's) desire to experiment... that has led to
the experimentation in homo-erotic behaviour. And nothing had led to it being
acceptable as culture.
> In Bhakti poetry, such as Basavanna's, the trope of male homosexuality
> and bisexuality is often used, and indeed, homosexuality was sometimes a
> rite of tantric worship. Tantric-influenced temples (Hindu or Buddhist)
> show female worship of the yoni (you know, with the tongue) as well as
> male.
You don't have to delve into tantrics to realize that man worships the phallus
too. That does not establish homosexuality or homosexuality as the norm. In
varanasi, during shiva rathri the biggest attraction is teh mating of the
phallus with the yoni. One has to realize that the worship of the phallus by
men or the yoni by women is no indication of homosexuality or the authorization
of homosexuality. You seem to have misunderstood such a ritual. The whole
episode is about the power of creation, where we fit in and where god figures in
this. Shakthi to be precise.
> hold on, either it's the humanity in us or the act is not human, which is
> it?
The act is inhuman. Period. Accepting that as a person's individual right,
freedom.. is humanity. It's the humanity in me that will accept another's desire
to be homosexual. While I despise the practice I don't encourage it either.
Your right to be a homosexual is guaranteed by your individual rights. I cannot
discriminate based on your sexual preferences.
> the difference between bestiality and homosexuality is that a human
> adult can reasonably be expected to be able to give consent. this is
> quite a difference. i won't be corny and mention that humans are also
> generally capable of language (i mean is that a plus or a minus? :)).
No, the difference is that human are expected to be rational about their
choices/sexual preferences.
*******************************************************************************All views/opinions expressed by me are mine and mine only. Those who disagree,
please pick a number and await your turn. - Shivram.
____
| |
| 77 |
|____|
*******************************************************************************
> i will even repost some literary citations:
>
> gay literature in Tamil. Karichan Kunju wrote a
> novel in '60s titled "Pasitha manudam". The hero of the novel is a
> bisexual. It created lot of controversy then and got him into lot of
> trouble. By the way he was my Tamil teacher.
>
> Recently, Su.Samuthiram wrote a novel titled "Vadamalli", Vanathi press.
> The hero is a homosexual. I saw the review of this novel in march, 1995
> Subamangala issue.
>
There is the short story "jin" (English Gin) by n^Ila. padgman^Aban
in the collection \bt in^dha n^URRANduch chiRukadhaikaL \et edited
by vittal rAv.
>
NOT opinionated, but just having and expressing opinions
for which I am solely responsible.
Swaminathan SANKARAN
Telephone: (306) 585-4988
FAX: (306) 585-4805
> Shabari Kumar wrote:
> > >Nemesis wrote..
> > > Evidence? Let me put it this way. Even the animals don't do it. The only animal which experts
> >
> > actually, they do. primates of all kinds, pigs, cows (an amusing article
> > in world press review about this), right down the food chain to storks.
> > exclusive homosexuality is more rare but has been observed in storks
> > which mate for life and some primates.
>
> I have to disagree. Could you point to the article you speak off. The discover
it's in 1988, i don't remember the month. however, if you do some
reading on homosexuality in the animal kingdom, it's sure to show up in
bibliographies. i think bonobos are a well-researched case of frequent
homosexual behavior, as are storks, which mate for life. if one observes
animals at any length (which i, having lived chez a dog-breeder, have
unfortunately have) one notices that they do many things we humans
construe as sexual which are non-procreative.
well, check out the manusmriti. manu seems to be quite aware of, if
you'll pardon the vulgarity, lesbian finger-fucking. i don't really wish
to go on in this vein. the ref.s i cited are *not* veiled. they are
other ref.s i could have cited which are veiled, but i purposedly did not
include them because i didn't feel like discussing this.
> I was trying to establish was that this is not the norm. This is not culture.
> The fact that they 'acknowledge the existence of homosexual behaviour' does not
> mean that it is an acceptable tradition that is passed from generation to
> generation. It's man's (and women's) desire to experiment... that has led to
ok, so we have established that homosexual behavior is not alien to
indian tradition. do we have clear
evidence of homosexual identities? in the caraka samhita, homosexuality
is clearly an identity, not just a behavior available to anyone (as it is
in say, the mahabharata). medical texts as a genre tend to support this
view, while sastric or poetic works either don't or don't discuss it. do
we have clear evidence of homosexual culture? well, for a few select
groups. for example, vatsyayana talks about bisexual rasiks (male), and
their frolicking. michael sweet has discussed the problem of
homosexuality in buddhist monostaries, mostly that there didn't seem
to be one, at least in comparision with heterosexuality. there is also the
tantric example (see below).
> the experimentation in homo-erotic behaviour. And nothing had led to it being
> acceptable as culture.
>
> > In Bhakti poetry, such as Basavanna's, the trope of male homosexuality
> > and bisexuality is often used, and indeed, homosexuality was sometimes a
> > rite of tantric worship. Tantric-influenced temples (Hindu or Buddhist)
> > show female worship of the yoni (you know, with the tongue) as well as
> > male.
>
> You don't have to delve into tantrics to realize that man worships the phallus
> too. That does not establish homosexuality or homosexuality as the norm. In
norm for what or whom? norm for the tantric in a particular era?
evidence suggests that it was. you know, i'm trying not to be crude, but
it does strike me that you need to buy yourself a copy of wendy doniger's
women, androgynes and other mythical beasts. wendy is hardly gay
positive herself, but she is full of copious evidence about the actuality
of homosexual practice. if man worships the phallus by taking it up his
rectum, it strkes me that indeed he does establish homosex as acceptable.
> varanasi, during shiva rathri the biggest attraction is teh mating of the
> phallus with the yoni. One has to realize that the worship of the phallus by
> men or the yoni by women is no indication of homosexuality or the authorizatio
let me get this straight. if a man sucks another man's dick, because
this cocksucking has religious implications, then it's not
homosexuality? under such rules, heterosexuality (often used as the
symbolism of the unity being and nothingness) doesn't exist either! what
are you, j. katz in disguise? my point here is simply this: in bhakti
imagery (we don't know what the poets actually did in bed) and in tantric
ritual, the attitude towards homosexuality is positive. you can argue
it's only homosexuality between certain circumscribed parameters, but the
same is true for heterosexuality (read the rati shastra for the latter).
get thee to a copy of the autobiography of yeshe tsogyel. one thing one
can conclude is that because the sexual was so deeply connected to the
spiritual, heterodox sexual practices were considered unremarkable.
n
> of homosexuality. You seem to have misunderstood such a ritual. The whole
> episode is about the power of creation, where we fit in and where god figures in
> this. Shakthi to be precise.
>
> > hold on, either it's the humanity in us or the act is not human, which is
> > it?
>
> The act is inhuman. Period. Accepting that as a person's individual right,
> freedom.. is humanity. It's the humanity in me that will accept another's desire
> to be homosexual. While I despise the practice I don't encourage it either.
> Your right to be a homosexual is guaranteed by your individual rights. I cannot
> discriminate based on your sexual preferences.
>
> > the difference between bestiality and homosexuality is that a human
> > adult can reasonably be expected to be able to give consent. this is
> > quite a difference. i won't be corny and mention that humans are also
> > generally capable of language (i mean is that a plus or a minus? :)).
>
> No, the difference is that human are expected to be rational about their
> choices/sexual preferences.
yes, and rationally, people have sex for more reasons than just
procreation (ever heard of birth control). that some people choose
members of their own sex shows nothing more or less than the fact that
some people like oysters and some like clams (wasn't this in some
olivier/tony curtis movie).
ok, i've given you an extensive enough reading list. this is my last word.
yours in struggle,
mina
>just to clarify, he wasn't my gay teacher.
> i was quoting from a post that
>someone else had sent me.
Badri,
you don't need to be ashamed of yourself for being
a gay, there is nothing wrong with it, since your
leader Jeyalalitha herself a homosexual person, i mean
there is a rumor that Jey and sasikala are Lesbian partners.
(Its good to see homosexual ruling T'nadu.)
I am not gay person but i think gay people should
have equal rights as non-gay people. T'nadu
is a good place for Gays where people democratically
elected a Homosexual as their leader.
>
> On 5 Feb 1996, Badrinarayanan Seshadri wrote:
>
> >just to clarify, he wasn't my gay teacher.
> > i was quoting from a post that
> >someone else had sent me.
first of all, you are not quoting from badri, you are quoting from me,
Mina Kumar, and if you are going to make innuendos based on this
(*doctored*) quote, i think i should be the one accused of being a big
old homo, and not badri. second of all, anyone who read the original
post can see quite clearly that you have changed it.
>
> Badri,
> you don't need to be ashamed of yourself for being
it's quite right and kind of you to point out that there is nothing wrong
being gay. i hope you'll think it equally right and kind of me to point
out that there is plenty wrong with doctoring quotes, and you should
indeed be ashamed of yourself.
> a gay, there is nothing wrong with it, since your
> leader Jeyalalitha herself a homosexual person, i mean
what a leap of logic. something is not wrong because one's leader does
it, is it? actually, some of us are quite capable of having leaders
whose behavior we do not approve of and emulate in toto.
> there is a rumor that Jey and sasikala are lisbian partners.
> (Its good to see homosexual ruling T'nadu.)
ok, after writing "their" for "there" in a post last week, i'm feeling
tres humble, so i won't say anything about lisbians, the lisping dykes
from Lisbao. (hey, who knew sasikala was pourtugese?).
>
> I am not gay person but i think gay people should
> have equal rights as non-gay people. T'nadu
> is a good place for gays where people democratically
> elected a Homosexual as there leader.
: On 5 Feb 1996, Badrinarayanan Seshadri wrote:
: >just to clarify, he wasn't my gay teacher.
: > i was quoting from a post that
: >someone else had sent me.
: Badri,
: you don't need to be ashamed of yourself for being
: a gay, there is nothing wrong with it, since your
: leader Jeyalalitha herself a homosexual person, i mean
: there is a rumor that Jey and sasikala are Lesbian partners.
: (Its good to see homosexual ruling T'nadu.)
:
: I am not gay person but i think gay people should
: have equal rights as non-gay people. T'nadu
: is a good place for Gays where people democratically
: elected a Homosexual as their leader.
: --
: Anpin nanpan
: Sathi S. Sathiyavirathan
: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~sathiyas/index7.html
No doubt Joseph Marriasingham will fit quite well into such society.