What is Zhuong Guo2 Ren2(ZGR) [p+culture]? <ZE>
Tze-yau Huang
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What is Zhuong Guo2 Ren2 (ZGR)?
Yes, ZE want to continue the discussion on this issue.
From the discussion in SCC and the "shu3 dian3 wang4 zhu3" in SCT,
ZE sees this topic is a very important part of our political and
cultural conflict on this net, and calmly studying this issue would
be beneficial to any of us who care about EAST ASIA.
ZE wants to present a concept that STATE is different from NATION, but
due to the limit of time, ZE has not collected enough material for the
detailed discussion. However, the main idea is of the concept is that
STATE is a political allocation of space (mainly land in today's world)
and the collective political structure within the boundary of such a
space; NATION is a cultural group of people sharing similar language,
customs, and of course culture. So, PRC is a STATE, ROC is a STATE, US
is a STATE, and Japan is a STATE, but they are all not NATION in this
concept. People like Kurds living in different STATEs, however, are
NATIONs. ZE is sorry that more detail of the concept is not available
now.
Still, ZE wants to discuss about what ZGR is. Is ZGR the citizenship for
STATE of PRC or is ZGR the ethnicity for Han4 (Hua2) Ren2?
Note that ZGR has a modern difinition while its usage was rare before this
century, so there was a purpose or a cause for the new binding of ZGR.
Note that ZE is avoiding to use Chinese because the English word is based on
Western perspective which we can hardly be meaningful for the people in EAST
ASIA.
--ZE Group
ZE would appreciate the following modification of the response title:
1. Change the author's name to yours when you respond.
2. Change the whole topic if you'd like to discuss about things such as
the pronounciation of words like bu4 or fu4 (e.g. from SCC).
[You can send e-mail to inform the change to the person your respond to.]
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Tze-yau Huang
--ZE Group
[You can send e-mail to inform the change to the person you respond to.]
Z [D[Dw
I just heard from a friend from HK that some people from taiwan
denying themself as a chinese, they want to say that they are
taiwanese, is that true? is that resonable? or if it is, I
would like to know what the reason is. please give me the answer,
thanks!
Tze-yau Huang
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True, all people from Taiwan are Taiwanese and some of them do not want
to be called Chinese while some of them do not want to be called Taiwanese.
Well, it is reasonable that some Taiwanese do not want to be evaluated as
Chinese since Chinese, a English word, reflects a Western conception about
people ruled by PRC (People's Republic of China, if you do not know yet)
Taiwan is not a part of PRC is the consensus among 99% of people in Taiwan
or more.
ZE Group itself feels the word Chinese is whatever the Westerners define
from time to time. When Chinese means Han people, there is no reason that
Han Taiwanese should deny this identity, but when Chinese means citizenship
of PRC, then even Tibetans ruled by PRC are considered non-Chinese so why
should Taiwanese not ruled by PRC pay respect to PRC and claim the citizenship?
There is a dispute about citizenship of ROC (Republic of China, a rare used
term today), and ZE has no idea on judging the issue.
The dispute is about the legitmacy of ROC on Taiwan but there is also a dispute
about ROC's claim that it represents China which is not taken by Westerners any
more. If you want to know more about the legitmacy of ROC on Taiwan, please
post another query because ZE does not want to start a dispute on this issue
without proper reasons.
Again, ZE expects comments on "What is Zhuong Guo2 Ren2 (ZGR)?"
What is Chinese is a different issue.
--ZE Group
Tze-yau Huang
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Bernard Nietschmann (Professor of Geography in UC Berkeley, 1988)
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Most international states are not nations. Nations are geographically bounded territories of a common people who share a sense of homogeneity and identify themselves as "one people" on the basis of common ancestry, history, society, institutions, ideology, often religion, and language. The existence of nations is ancient. Today there are between 3000 and 5000 nations; some have small populations and areas, and some have populations reaching into the millions and territories larger than many states.
Most people could not name even ten of the world's nations.
A state is a centralized political system, recognized by other states, that uses a civilian and military bureaucracy to enforce one set of institutions and laws, and sometimes a single language and region within its claimed boundaries. This is done regardless of the presence of nations that have preexisting and different laws and institutions and who may not accept imposed state sovereignty. Although most state governments assert that their state is made up of one common people (a nation), more tahn 9
5 percent of the international states are multinational, that is, composed of many nations, some unconsenting. In 1945, there were 72 states, and today there are 168, most of which are represented in the United Nations. Of these, very few are "nation-states" (Iceland, Western Samoa, East Germany, Poland, Denmark, and few others).
...
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from "Miskito and Kuna Struggle for National Autonomy" in Tribal Peoples and Development Issues (ed. John H. Bodley), Mountain View: May field, 1988.
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Quoted by ZE Group
Tze-yau Huang
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Bernard Nietschmann (Professor of Geography in UC Berkeley, 1988)
...
Most international states are not nations. Nations are geographically
bounded territories of a common people who share a sense of homogeneity
and identify themselves as "one people" on the basis of common ancestry,
history, society, institutions, ideology, often religion, and language.
The existence of nations is ancient. Today there are between 3000 and
5000 nations; some have small populations and areas, and some have popula-
tions reaching into the millions and territories larger than many states.
Most people could not name even ten of the world's nations.
A state is a centralized political system, recognized by other states,
that uses a civilian and military bureaucracy to enforce one set of insti-
tutions and laws, and sometimes a single language and region within its
claimed boundaries. This is done regardless of the presence of nations
that have preexisting and different laws and institutions and who may not
accept imposed state sovereignty. Although most state governments assert
that their state is made up of one common people (a nation), more than 95
percent of the international states are multinational, that is, composed
of many nations, some unconsenting. In 1945, there were 72 states, and
today there are 168, most of which are represented in the United Nations.
Of these, very few are "nation-states" (Iceland, Western Samoa, East Ger-
many, Poland, Denmark, and few others).
...
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from "Miskito and Kuna Struggle for National Autonomy" in Tribal Peoples
and Development Issues (ed. John H. Bodley), Mountain View: May field, 1988.
*******
Quoted by ZE Group
Hwang, Chien-Jong
Japan, France?, Hungry, England, German, Spain?, Tailand?, Russia (not
USSR), Poland, Tibet, Napal, Egypt, Australia?. There, that's 14.
I'm not sure if I'm getting it right. Better Yet, why don't you
provide us a list of nations, say 20?
Now about nation-states, the only ones I can think of are: Japan,
Napal, Hungry, Poland, Egypt?, Germany?, France?, Australia?
Tailand?. I don't know. What are the nation-states in existance?
Interesting topic.
ChienJong
Tze-yau Huang
>OK, I give up. I only know few nations. Let's see. We have Han,
>Japan, France?, Hungry, England, German, Spain?, Tailand?, Russia (not
>USSR), Poland, Tibet, Napal, Egypt, Australia?. There, that's 14.
>I'm not sure if I'm getting it right. Better Yet, why don't you
>provide us a list of nations, say 20?
>
Japanese population. There are other indegenous people in different
parts of Japan plus some digital percentages of Korean and Han. Also,
Okinawa, Japan has non-nihhonjin majority.
Then France is was formed by different European peoples and there are
some difference between north and south France while today there are
some non-Europeans such as Arab, African, and Asian in France. One
vivid fact is that there is a "skin-head-typed" party in France called
French Front collecting 10% of French national votes.
West Germanny is somewhat similar to France.
Australia was a white colony where aboriginal people are still existing.
Anglo-Australians probably can be counted as a nation while Austria can
be a nation-state if it does not have some Hungrians and other Eastern
Europeans there.
For example of nation, there are many "Indian" nations throughout the both
continents of America while their names might not be famous. Many minorities
ruled by PRC are nations too. BTW, Kurdish people is a nation without state.
In India, there are 16 major languages, so each language is probably used by
several nations.
>Now about nation-states, the only ones I can think of are: Japan,
>Napal, Hungry, Poland, Egypt?, Germany?, France?, Australia?
>Tailand?. I don't know. What are the nation-states in existance?
>
>Interesting topic.
>
>ChienJong
Hmmm ... nation-state is rare and ZE can only find few of them such as
Fiji (and other Oceanic states), Danmark, and Iceland.
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Well, the main purpose of posting this quote is to provide a perspective
about differentiating nations and states. Many problems discussedd on
this net have some thing to do with the relationship between Han nation
(in a loose difinition) and Han dominated states (China, Singapore,
and Taiwan). There are Han people all over the world for historical
reasons and do Han people really need "one" nation-state? What does
nationalism mean to Han people under the perspective ZE presents? Is
"unification" only an expansion of political structure, or is it actually
a type of Third World Imperialism?
Come back to a fundamental question, what is "Zhuong Guo2 Ren2"(ZGR)?
Shall there be only one "Zhuong Guo2"(ZG), Taiwanese has to be citizen
of Taiwan rather than ZGR. For PRC certainly rules ZG and ZGR, and not
all Han people has to be ZG citizen and not every ZGR has to be Han.
Members of ZE were all born in Taiwan and is asking why should some ZGR
feel angry against us when we say that we are not ZGR while we tell them
that we are Han people?
--ZE Group