Me meto donde no me llaman (sobre soc.culture.charnego)
Agusti Roig
Mario wrote:
>
> Agusti Roig <agu...@txati.upc.es> escribió
> > Por lo que respecta a que si tiene gracia o no que soc.culture.catalan
> > este todo el santo dia a la greña con la cuestion *nacional*... Bueno:
> > tal vez es inevitable, ¿no? Y tal vez no es del todo malo: al menos,
> > aunque no mucho, los bandos en liza se ven obligados, ni que sea su-
> > perficialmente, a leer los argumentos de la otra parte. Y, aunque
> > a muchos solo les sirva para reafirmarse en que *el otro* es un hijo
> > de la gran puta, pues yo lo creo mejor que no el vivir de espaldas
> > *al otro* y dedicarse a rumiar los agravios mutuos en la soledad
> > y seguridad que te daria estar tan solo rodeado de *los tuyos*.
> No lo plantearía yo como rumiar agravios lo que se puede hacer en un
> soc.culture.charnego. Como comentaba en la nota inicial, usando a título
> de ejemplo el tema de los apellidos en las candidaturas, creo que existe
> una
> infrarrepresentación del bloque social inmigrante en la sociedad catalana.
> Me parece que hay una carencia de organizaciones sociales que traten
> estas problemáticas (a mí, personalmente, me parece que lo de las Casas
> Regionales, no es suficiente). Temas como la solución _concreta_ que se ha
> dado al tema de la inmersión lingüística me parece evidente que han tenido
> que provocar importantes rozamientos en esa comunidad. Las encuestas
> no los han manifestado,
Las encuestas si que lo han manifestado. No se si la edicion de Madrid
de "El Pais" las recogio en su momento, pero la de Barcelona si y hace
dos años el rechazo a la politica linguistica de la Generalitat por con-
siderarla discriminadora para la lengua castellana estaba en el 30%. En
el otro extremo habia un 15% que la consideraba insuficiente para la len-
gua catalana.
> creo que por el nivel de sanción social que pueden
> esperar los discrepantes del entorno más nacionalista. Por ejemplo, me
> parece
> que unos profesores o unos padres que pretendiesen en su momento una
> educación
> naturalmente bilingüe se encontrarían con un rechazo social muy molesto, y
> el
> resultado es que se autocensuran (lo de que te llamen mal catalán, o mal
> gallego,
> o mal vasco, o mal español no le agrada a nadie).
Eso no es impensable. Sin embargo, todas estas personas que tienen
reparos para exponer sus ideas deberian saber que, a pesar de que el
panorama politico catalan este dominado por el nacionalismo de CiU +
ERC + PI + izquierda acomplejada, el hecho cierto es que Cataluña no
es, hoy por hoy, afortunadamente, un *mar* nacionalista catalan. Otras
encuestas (publicadas tambien por "El Pais" y dadas por buenas por par-
te de reconocidos representantes del nacionalismo catalan por la via
de *lamentar* que esos fueran los resultados) muestran como hasta un
80% de los catalanes se siente, en mayor o menor grado, tanto catalan
como español.
Por lo tanto, mas alla de la gran fortuna politica que tiene hoy CiU
aunando con su mensaje deliberadamente confuso a un 40% del electora-
do en las autonomicas, esta el hecho de fondo de que la Cataluña real
no es la que pintan los nacionalistas. Y tan solo hay que levantar el
dedo para señalar que el rey esta desnudo (y si puede ser sin caer en
el otro extremo del nacionalismo español, mejor).
Es decir, que a poco que organizaciones como el "Foro Babel" sigan con
su tarea, los nacionalistas catalanes van a tener que modificar su len-
guaje, actitudes y objetivos, pues se van a encontrar (como ya les ha
pasado con su intento de lengua oficial unica) que las resistencias les
superan ampliamente.
> Pues bien, creo que el que aparezcan más foros de intervención social de
> los
> inmigrantes, en los que puedan aparecer diferenciaciones, para que no todo
> sea
> o Cervantina o Traga_con_la_Generalitat, es en sí mismo riqueza y
> equilibrio para
> el futuro de la sociedad catalana. No veo el peligro de solipsismo que tú
> mencionas,
> porque si algo se saca como impresión en conversaciones con inmigrantes en
> Cataluña es que sus criticas se centran en los excesos del nacionalismo
> cultural en
> la dirección del monolingüiismo (en la educación, o en la
> señalización,...), en fin,
> en esos feos detalles de la derecha catalana -bastante bien secundada por
> la izquierda
> catalana).
El problema, Mario, es que los proponientes de soc.culture.charnego son
(moralmente al menos) "Cervantina". Y los *charnegos* de verdad (no los
residentes en los USA) o los catalanes no nacionalistas que escribimos
en soc.culture.catalan no necesitamos ese nuevo foro para defender que
el castellano es tan idioma *propio* de Cataluña como el catalan. Es de-
cir, que ¿para quien es ese foro? Pues no es improbable que acabe siendo
un sitio de reunion de: (1) mensajes de soc.culture.spain crossposteados
ahi por defecto, (2) los tres proponientes y algun *charnego* mas resi-
dente en Miami junto con todo ultraderechista que quiera juntarseles a
la vista del titulo. Con todo ello, no se que de bueno va a aportar a la
discusion y defensa (necesaria) de los derechos de los castellanoparlan-
tes de Cataluña.
Agusti Roig
ro...@ma1.upc.es
Gurriato Gurriatez
Agusti Roig wrote:
>
>
> El problema, Mario, es que los proponientes de soc.culture.charnego
> son
> (moralmente al menos) "Cervantina". Y los *charnegos* de verdad (no
> los
> residentes en los USA) o los catalanes no nacionalistas que escribimos
>
> en soc.culture.catalan no necesitamos ese nuevo foro para defender que
>
> el castellano es tan idioma *propio* de Cataluña como el catalan.
The Spanish spoken by Charnegos is not classic Castillian Spanish, but a
folck dialect reflecting the language of the poor segments of the
population of mostly Southern Spain with modifications of Catalan words.
Beign both languages of Latin origin, Spanish and Catalan can borrow
words quite easily from each other.
The same is true for the "Kamacu" Catalan dialect of Barcelona. Among
Charnegos, as among other ethnic groups, acculturation is not a simple
one-way process. The larger society in Catalonia has adopted many
Charnego features, not only such practical things as "tortilla de
patatas" , but such other cultural features as Flamenco music and
Spanish names.
And I would appreciate your taking my interest in Catalonia and the
Charnego people more seriously. I am not a foreign dilettante. Probably
you are already aware that I have I relatively good command of
Catalonian language, a reflection of the time expent there.
It is worth mentioning the origin of somme of the main opponents to
soc.culture.charnego:
Jaume Canaves is from the Balearic Islands, and Maracas is a Valencian
living in the Valencian Community. I would think that their rights to
give an opinion on the Charnego problem are approximatelly as
legitimate as mine.
> Es de-
> cir, que ¿para quien es ese foro? Pues no es improbable que acabe
> siendo
> un sitio de reunion de: (1) mensajes de soc.culture.spain
> crossposteados
> ahi por defecto, (2) los tres proponientes y algun *charnego* mas
> resi-
> dente en Miami junto con todo ultraderechista que quiera juntarseles a
>
> la vista del titulo. Con todo ello, no se que de bueno va a aportar a
> la
> discusion y defensa (necesaria) de los derechos de los
> castellanoparlan-
> tes de Cataluña.
The reason why tre group is needed is as follows:
For many years, Charnegos were both socially and politically
"invisible". Working and living in the isolated and separate world of
the urban barrios, Charnegos had little impact on the political system
or on the life of the larger community. Because of their predominantly
blue collar background, the low militancy in main political parties,
lack of participation in politics (and those who did seldom voted),
political leaders paid little attention to them.
This is beginning to change. Charnegos are taking asn increasingly
active role in public life. Nowdaya thios take place mostly at the
grass-roots level. Forums like the Internet have become essential for
thir struggle to maintain their cultural roots.
There is an increasing interest for Charnego cultural manifestations.
Charnego Flamenco music is flourishing. Some of the best witers of the
Catalonia of today are Charnego. After the struggles of the first and
second generation have produced enough acculturation and affluence for
the third generation to afford nostalgia for a vanishing ethnic culture,
the younger members of the third generation especially may become
fiercely concerned about a language they are notr allowed to use in the
Schools, custums they have never followed, and and identity they never
had.
I can give you the example of Antonio Ortiz (Hey, Floriopondio, how
you're doing), now an expert in Flamenco music, while people of his age
in Andalucia couldn't care less about anything other than American
Pop-music.
All this issues can be addressed in a forum like soc.culture.charnego.
You guys are concerned about issues which are of no interest to us (
like your obsessions with the Occitan language and the city of Alguer).
We can have the best of two worlds in two specialized forums. Let's
increase the menu so that everybody would enjoy their intellectual
meals.
Sincerely
EL COJO MANTECAS
Gurriato Gurriatez
Russ Allbery wrote:
> In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>
> > The reason why tre group is needed is as follows:
>
> > For many years, Charnegos were both socially and politically
> > "invisible". Working and living in the isolated and separate world
> of
> > the urban barrios, Charnegos had little impact on the political
> system
> > or on the life of the larger community. Because of their
> predominantly
> > blue collar background, the low militancy in main political parties,
>
> > lack of participation in politics (and those who did seldom voted),
> > political leaders paid little attention to them.
>
> Axiom #1: The Usenet is not the real world. The Usenet
> usually
> does not even resemble the real world.
> Corollary #1: Attempts to change the real world by altering
> the
> structure of the Usenet is an attempt to work sympathetic magic --
> electronic voodoo.
> -- Gene Spafford
>
> Usenet newsgroups shouldn't be created in an attempt to address
> real-world
> problems; they should rather be created when there is a demonstrated
> need
> for them and a sufficient quantity of interest in discussing a topic
> that
> the currently existing newsgroups are not sufficient.
>
You are absolutely right.Axiom # 2 : Numbers speak loud and clear.Tell
us how many interested people you need.
We will aks interested people to send a note of support to the creation
of soc.culture.charnego
and a statement of intention to participate in it.
Let's not speculate, but count.
Corollary #2; The opposition to the creation of the group would not be
so strong if there would be a prediction of lack of interest in it
The grouo will be polemic perhaps, boring and lacking interest, no way.
You don't have the slight idea how passionately this matter is beind
discussed in Spain nowadays.
Sincerely
EMILIO SORIA
> --
> Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
> <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Gurriato Gurriatez
Russ Allbery wrote:
> In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>
> > You are absolutely right. Axiom # 2 : Numbers speak loud and clear.
>
> No, actually, that's not axiom #2.
>
> > Tell us how many interested people you need. We will aks interested
>
> > people to send a note of support to the creation of
> soc.culture.charnego
>
> Uh-huh. Tell us how many interested people you need and we'll
> manufacture
> that number. No. The measure is of existing traffic, the existing
> traffic is crossposted political flamewars, not cultural discussion,
> and
> there isn't existing traffic support for this newsgroup as proposed.
Explain that to me:
To exist you need pre existing traffic
To get traffic you need to be existing already
The group is not in the stage of discussing issues such as the latest
Flamenco singer in Catalonia or the last novel of Vasquez Montalban as
we want to do. We have expent two weeks trying to contrarrest the
bombardement and boycott by people such as Artur Sixto, who has flooded
the thread with ad hominem falacies and defamations of character
The matter of fact is that the Net has given a forum to a Catalonian
community of 3 million people (soc.culture.catalan) but denies a
simmilar forum to a Catalonian community, also 3 million strong, just
because is a Spanish speaking one, and because has found a strong
opposition of a few far right nationalists who have rarefied the
atmosphere with their slanders.
I consider this mere discrimination and prejudice against this
community.
Mr. Sixto knew perfectly well that, to bycott the project, he only had
to produce some confussion with a smoke curtain of quarrelsome articles
to give an impression of dessarray and flame war. There is always
someone falling for that. This agenda has been made clear in the
sarcasms of Mr Jaume Canaves in some of his articles in Spanish.
Anyway, I am aware that you have to take your decisions based in scanty
evidence, and pressed by different social pressures.. I imagine it is
difficult for a non Spanish and Catalan speaking person to extricate
himself in this complex cultural and linguistic situation of an alien
culture. Only the Internet users fluent or semifluent in English had had
a chance to participate in this traffic of conversations. The relevance
of the postings in English for the last two weeks in this forum to the
postings related to the Charnegos posted in Spanish in their own forum
do not appear quite clear to me. Anyway, it will be a great
dissapointment to many people who were waiting for this forum to
interchange ideas and debate issues of their interest (not of the
interest of Mr. Sixto)
I do not perceive that the amount or quality of taffic in a possible
soc.culture.charnego was goring to be much different than the ones found
in soc.culture.catalan or similar forums.
>
>
> > Corollary #2; The opposition to the creation of the group would not
> be
> > so strong if there would be a prediction of lack of interest in it
>
> Be nice if you'd stop making up rules as you go along; there actually
> is a
> corollary #2 and it isn't that either. Furthermore, this also doesn't
>
> make any sense.
>
I wasn't trying to make rules, Mr. Allbery. I was trying to make
conversation
Sincerely
EMILIO SORIA
Mario
Agusti Roig <agu...@txati.upc.es> escribió en artículo
<34674D6D...@txati.upc.es>...
>
> Las encuestas si que lo han manifestado. No se si la edicion de Madrid
> de "El Pais" las recogio en su momento, pero la de Barcelona si y hace
> dos años el rechazo a la politica linguistica de la Generalitat por con-
> siderarla discriminadora para la lengua castellana estaba en el 30%. En
> el otro extremo habia un 15% que la consideraba insuficiente para la len-
> gua catalana.
>
Tienes razón. Pero me refería a que, aunque aparezca en las encuestas
un porcentaje significativo de rechazo a los excesos de la Generalitat,
necesariamente hay otro porcentaje oculto de autocensurados. Hay que
tener en cuenta que a cualquier tímida manifestación pública de oposición
aparecen -o eso es lo que yo he creído ver- respuestas _como_un_sólo_
hombre_ de múltiples instituciones catalanistas. Tengo para mí que la
misma auto-censura que afecta a muchos pobres incultos inmigrantes,
existe en algún que otro magistrado del T. Constitucional, lo que ya es
decir.
>
> Eso no es impensable. Sin embargo, todas estas personas que tienen
> reparos para exponer sus ideas deberian saber que, a pesar de que el
> panorama politico catalan este dominado por el nacionalismo de CiU +
> ERC + PI + izquierda acomplejada, el hecho cierto es que Cataluña no
> es, hoy por hoy, afortunadamente, un *mar* nacionalista catalan. Otras
> encuestas (publicadas tambien por "El Pais" y dadas por buenas por par-
> te de reconocidos representantes del nacionalismo catalan por la via
> de *lamentar* que esos fueran los resultados) muestran como hasta un
> 80% de los catalanes se siente, en mayor o menor grado, tanto catalan
> como español.
Para mí, lo que esto pone en primer plano es la necesidad de que los
partidos
de izquierda se desacomplejen y propongan a la sociedad catalana un
programa
mestizo, con las dificultades iniciales que ello puede tener (siempre serán
infinitamente menos difíciles que las que puede tener la izquierda israelí,
por ejemplo,
en una situación como la actual).
> El problema, Mario, es que los proponientes de soc.culture.charnego son
> (moralmente al menos) "Cervantina". Y los *charnegos* de verdad (no los
> residentes en los USA) o los catalanes no nacionalistas que escribimos
> en soc.culture.catalan no necesitamos ese nuevo foro para defender que
> el castellano es tan idioma *propio* de Cataluña como el catalan. Es de-
> cir, que ¿para quien es ese foro? Pues no es improbable que acabe siendo
> un sitio de reunion de: (1) mensajes de soc.culture.spain crossposteados
> ahi por defecto, (2) los tres proponientes y algun *charnego* mas resi-
> dente en Miami junto con todo ultraderechista que quiera juntarseles a
> la vista del titulo. Con todo ello, no se que de bueno va a aportar a la
> discusion y defensa (necesaria) de los derechos de los castellanoparlan-
> tes de Cataluña.
>
Mira, dos matizaciones sobre lo que dices:
(1) Por muy unilateral que sea ese nuevo foro, aunque sólo fuera un foro
especializado en publicar las barbaridades que aparecen en algunos libros
de texto, me parecería útil (las del tipo 'El Ebro, río catalán que nace
en tierras extrañas, etc. etc'.). Digo además que me parecería muy bien
otro foro en el que se publicasen las barbaridades pan-españolistas que
aparecen en algunos libros de texto.
(2) Respecto a la valoración de los promotores, yo no voy a entrar. Quiero
decir que les conozco _en_el_contexto_ flameante de las news -contexto
en que a todos se nos calienta demasiado la boca-. Claro que coincido
contigo en que las news no son un lugar para el debate sereno pero no por
eso las descalifico completamente, puesto que no impiden que entre tantos
Pedros, Pablos, USS Tozales y Donate sperms se puedan tener conversaciones
civilizadas. Si el grupo soc.culture.charnego me permitiese conocer un sólo
personaje valioso, ya fuese charnego o catalanista civilizado, para mí
sería suficiente.
Para terminar, Agustí, un detallazo lo de reproducir lo de Mientras Tanto.
Un saludo.
-----------------------------------------
if(naciste pa martillo)
del cielo te can los clavos;
else
goto m...@maptel.es
Information Security
Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
: Russ Allbery wrote:
: > In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
: >
: > > You are absolutely right. Axiom # 2 : Numbers speak loud and clear.
: >
: > No, actually, that's not axiom #2.
: >
: > > Tell us how many interested people you need. We will aks interested
: >
: > > people to send a note of support to the creation of
: > soc.culture.charnego
: >
: > Uh-huh. Tell us how many interested people you need and we'll
: > manufacture
: > that number. No. The measure is of existing traffic, the existing
: > traffic is crossposted political flamewars, not cultural discussion,
: > and
: > there isn't existing traffic support for this newsgroup as proposed.
: Explain that to me:
: To exist you need pre existing traffic
: To get traffic you need to be existing already
Ignore Russ.
He's on the steering committee of UCENET II (www.usenet2.org), a
vulture hierarchy that is duplicating perfectly good Usenet groups
in order to steal people from them. (see its list of groups that
it is duplicating)
Do whatever you think is best.
Russ no longer knows what he is doing.
---guy
Spam this: pe...@baileynm.com
Gurriato Gurriatez
antonio ortiz wrote:
> Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> >I can give you the example of Antonio Ortiz (Hey, Floriopondio, how
> >you're doing), now an expert in Flamenco music, while people of his
> >age in Andalucia couldn't care less about anything other than
> American
> >Pop-music.
>
> Muchas gracias por este comentario tuyo sobre mi pero como ya he dicho
>
> en anteriores ocasiones no soy partidario de la creacion de
> soc.culture.charnego. Cuando llegue el momento votare negativamente
> (con
> todo el valor que de un voto personal en la resolucion de este asunto)
>
> por estas razones:
Aclaro este punto. Creo que eres un experto en flamenco-pop. Rumbitas y
chorradas fusioneras- bakalaisticas. Me parece muy bien, pues eso es lo
que cantan los charnegos en tu tierra
De cante grande no tienes ni la mas reputisima idea. Tambien me parece
muy bien, pues eso es lo que cantan los gitanos en la mia. Es una
musica de dificil comprension a los no iniciados. Al cante muchos son
los llamados y pocos los escogidos.
> - Los "charnegos" son tan catalanes como los catalanoparlantes y por
> lo
> tanto su cultura, su idioma y su musica tienen cabida en el newsgroup
> soc.culture.catalan. Y en este punto estoy en desacuerdo con los
> catalanoparlantes que puedan estar en contra.
>
Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se
llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.Si asi
fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.
Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo. Los demas le habeis
seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que haya un grupo
dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en su titulo.
Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
> - La creacion de S.C.CH. provocaria una division innecesaria de los
> integrantes Interneros de las dos comunidades y favoreceria las
> pretensiones de esos "malvados enemigos polakos" que dices que quieren
>
> erradicar la lengua y cultura castellanas en soc.culture.catalan
>
Tu pareces ser el unico que no esta al tanto del proyecto de
erradicacion del castellano mediante el metodo de cambiar la lengua
materna de los niños antes de que tengan uso de razon.
Jaume Canaves en mas de una ocasion nos ha restregado este asunto por
los güevos con bastante pitorreo. La fecha que dio de plazo me para
completar el proceso creo que eran 25 años. La expresion empleada fue:
"teneis que pasar por el tubo, os guste o no os guste". Y añadio que "os
tendreis que joder, pues no podreis hacer otra cosa mas que cojeros
rabietas".
El resto del polakerio esta perfectamente al tanto de este asunto. Sin
embargo no quieren que el asunto trascienda mas de lo necesario, para
que el proceso se pueda completar sin escandalos y sin demasiadas
protestas. Esto es lo que indujo a Tontoliu a mentir como un bellaco (
en un ingles todavia mas macarronico que el mio) y decir en publico que
llevo a sus hijas a la escuela publica en Cataluña y le ofrecieron el
menu: "En que lengua quiere que eduquemos a sus nenas, Sr. Tontoliu, en
catalan o en castellano?" . Si esta matraca de la inmersion no os
pareciera una cosa vergonzosa no andaria Tontoliu mintiendo en publico
con tanta desfachatez para ocultarlo.
> - Hay que defender la catalanidad de la cultura de los "charnegos"
> catalanes en foros comunes junto a la poblacion catalanoparlante.
> soc.culture.catalan y soc.culture.charnego serian ghettos con esta
> particion...
>
> - La inmersion linguistica se realiza para salvar el idioma catalan y
> para favorecer el bilinguismo de todos los alumnos.
No hay ningun derecho a cancelar los derechos de las personas para
darselos a las lenguas que son entidades abstractas. El derecho de los
niños esta por encima de tanta pamplina. Los chiquillos salen de la
escuela sin saber hacer la o con un canuto y con un conocimiento
precario de su idioma. Pronto estaran diciendo cosas tales como lo de
"esta reinando en el rufo" (esta lloviendo en el techo), como algunos
hispanos del ghetto.
Nadie le esta negando a los catalanes el derecho a usar su lengua en
todas las manifestaciones de la vida diaria. Yo, en particular, no les
niego el derecho a la autodeterminacion, a la independencia o a lo que
les salga de las pelotas votar que se haga con su pais. Me parece que
el Cagafierros and Co tiene perfecto derecho a pedir la independencia si
le sale de las pelotas. Todas estas actividades son plenamente legitimas
y deben someterse al proceso democratico.
Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de una
comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta de
los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente preservar
el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo hay
miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar preservarlos
no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.
Mira el caso que hacen los franchutes a la langue-d'oc, occitano o como
querais llamarlo. En todo el pais hay menos de dos mil niños que esten
tomando unas clases de un par de horitas a la semana. Sin embargo ahi
tienes al polakerio es un continuo extasis occitano. Y lo de Alguer ya
esta tomando un cariz surrealista.El que cuatro viejas chapurrearan algo
de catalan en un pueblo sardo hace medio siglo al parecer tiene una
importancia cosmica. El que una comunidad de tres millones de personas
quiera que a sus hijos se les eduque en su idioma, idioma que es tambien
el de otros trescientos millones de personas, al parecer no tiene
importancia alguna.
Lo mismo digo de la religion. Hay religiones que se estan extinguiendo
por falta de fieles, y no por eso habria que tolerar la inmersion
religiosa de ningun niño en contra de la voluntad de los padres.
Como eres medio simple a lo mejor te has creido que no hay un gran
numero de charnegos que estan que trinan con lo de la inmersion de los
cojones. Mira lo que paso con lo de la Feria de Abril, las broncas que
tienen los pancas con las casas regionales y demas incidentes. Todavia
no hay ningun partido que acoja el amparo de la charnegada en su
plataforma ideologica, y son esas organizaciones las que estan llevando
la lucha a nivel de "grass-roots".
La gente no ha pedido la pseudoeducacion bilingüe, porque es un camelo
y una crueldad estigmatizadora contra el niño en las escuela. Ningun
padre en su sano juicio pondria a su hijo a que sufra ese calvario de
ridiculo y vergüenza. Eso les permite a los pancas afirmar que el 100%
de la poblacion esta encantadisima con el proceso.
> Se busca una
> comprension del 50% tanto en catalan y castellano. Si realmente fuera
> para exterminar el castellano estaria en desacuerdo con la inmersion y
>
> cuando el catalan esté a salvo será innecesaria la exclusividad de la
> enseñanza en catalán.
El unico que te crees que la immersion esta planeado como algo temporero
y que se cancelara en el futuro, eres tu. Bueno, quiza no: Agusti Roig
tambien se lo cree. Agusti se lo cree porque es una buena persona. Tu te
lo crees porque eres tonto del bote, que no hay que confundir la bondad
con la memez (perdona, chico, pero asi es como pienso)
La immersion solo se cancelaran si los charnegos luchan por ello. Los
partidos nacionales no van a ahcer nada por los charnegos (mira lo que
el PP hizo con el Aleix por defenderlos)
>
>
> - En todas partes cuecen habas. Habran "polakos" intransigentes pero
> yo
> muestro mi disconformidad respecto a sus opiniones y propuestas. igual
>
> como hay "espanyolistas" o "charnegos" tolerantes o intransigentes...
> No
> hay que satanizar el bando contrario.
Hostias con la satanizacion! Tu has visto como ha presentado el
polakerio en news.groups a los proponentes de soc.culture.charnego?.
Endeluego, Floripondio, hay veces que pienso que ademas de ser tonto es
que eres tontaina y ademas tonto del haba y de la pandereta. Y ademas de
la clase de los tontos utiles que van por el mundo de ordenanzas,
limpiandole las botas al señorito. y lo haces si malicia alguna, porque
estas muy predispuesto a creerte paparruchas oficiales que se dan por la
tele para consumo de panfilos.
EL COJO MANTECAS
t.r.mcloughlin
Information Security wrote:
> Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
> : Explain that to me:
>
> : To exist you need pre existing traffic
> : To get traffic you need to be existing already
>
> Ignore Russ.
>
> He's on the steering committee of UCENET II (www.usenet2.org), a
> vulture hierarchy that is duplicating perfectly good Usenet groups
> in order to steal people from them. (see its list of groups that
> it is duplicating)
Close, but not quite right. Usenet II is designed to steal
the *souls* of people from perfectly good Usenet groups, not
the people themselves.
It's a very creative (but immoral) design: an "active site" is
created when the the unsuspecting poster sends *what appears* to
be a post to UII, and then when he *reads* it, his soul is captured
and suspended in psion inference field. The devious part is that
the victim can not tell his soul is under UII control until
he attempts to use it. That can be anywhere from a few weeks to
years for most usenet posters. And by then, the soul has already
been smuggled out of the country or sold to AOL.
trm
Gurriato Gurriatez
Jaume M. Canaves wrote:
> [multiple crossposting removed]
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo
> se
> > llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.
>
> Catalan CULTURE, my dear Dr Soria. Catalan Culture, and that includes
> the
> culture of Catalan-speakers, Spanish-speakers, gypsies (like Peret and
>
> others), etc.
>
> Of course the group does not refer to the Country!. The purpose of the
>
> group was creating a group for people living in countries with a
> common
> Catalan heritage, that is people living in areas in Spain, Italy,
> France,
> and Andorra, not restricted to Catalonia.
>
> > Si asi fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
>
> The reason for the name is clearly exposed before.
>
> Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the real
> issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
> Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your concerns
>
> about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
>
Chaumita de misentrañas, I dont put shit together or separate. I don't
play with shit since age 1. I don't expect to play with shit until I'll
be ninety or so.Then I'll be drawing four bars with it on the walls of
the nursing home (recuerdos a Guifredo el Peludo, jejeje)
The RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego is chitchatting
about Charnego stuff, capisce?
> > Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que
> ser
> > en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en
> castellano.
>
> Well, that was the opinion of a person in a given moment. On the other
>
> hand Agusti Roig and most of posters have expressed in numerous
> occasions
> that messages in Spanish are welcome. Perhaps 1/3 or more of my
> messages
> in soc.culture.catalan are in Spanish!.
Mine were 1/3 or more in Catalan, and I still got the piruli-pirula of
the group.I'am proud to say that my Catalan is often better than tho one
spoken by some fascist pancas*
(*) panca= supporter of pancatalanism, the union of several countries
including Valencia and the Balearic Islands into a Mega Catalonia. This
is THE monotheme in soc.culture.catalan. They can talk about it for
hours. The other two topics are as follows:
a) three or four old folks in Alguer (Sardinia) who fifty years ago
still spoke broken Catalan.
b) the relation of Catalan to the occitan language of Southern France.
Whenerver somebody brings these topics to the group the whole pack
becames extatic.
However, if you dare to bring the issue of the relationship with the 3
millions of their countrymen who speak Spanish, they became hostile as
hell, and they chase you out of it (piruli-pirula) Spanish is not
consider a "proper" language (llengua propia) in Catalonia.
>
>
> > Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
> > linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo.
>
> And you are so naive that when somebody tell you to leave a group
> because
> of your trolling, you do it... I guess that if in any flame war
> everybody
> was reacting like you, the group would be empty in two weeks.
I left not because I was told to. I left because I was extremelly
annoyed by a chanting of piruli-pirula-piruli-pirula that went on for
days whenever I tried to post a message there. The rest of the group
thought that this was very funny and encouraged this behaviour.
Piruli-pirula-piruli isn't my kind of mantras. I find them boring.
Anyway, I think that you can make with your catalan group anything you
want. I don't care.
>
>
> Anyway, as clearly exposed in your messages in the thread 'ROBOTITOS A
> MI'
> and other threads you decided to abandon soc.culture.catalan because
> of
> the proposed moderation of the group, and most of people told you that
> if
> you wanted to self-exclude you from the group it was your decision
> but
> your posts were welcome if they were not crossposted to tons of
> irrelevant
> groups.
Tons? could you be a little more specific. I posted many of my messages
to both soc.culture.spain and soc.culture.catalan, something I still
think is perfectly appropiate. I was not posting them to
soc.culture.tibet or something like that. Some went to American Spanish
speaking groups. You don't seem to understand that Colombia is our
Andorra, and Venezuela is our Alguer.The Spanish speaking world is
rather large and an occasional crossporting to reach it is not a crimen
punished by the death penalty.
Te das cuen?
The experience of the Charnego is very SIMILAR to that of the Chicano
people. Both communities are trying to maintain their language in a
hostile territory ( May be you'd call it Territori Comanxe) I know both
societies quite well. For this reason I am posting (noT crossoposting)
my messages to both groups. If you don't like it you may go fly a kite
Bueno, lo dejo, que ya estoy hasta las narices de darle conversacion al
polakerio sobre tonterias sin importancia en mi vida.
Y como veo que te molesta la poesia, y para seguir con los temas
culturales, te dedico este poemilla clasico castellano, que parece
escrito especialmente para mi
Puede ser otoñal, mas nunca eunuco.
Siempre enhiesto y alzado como un pino;
las mujeres confirman que es divino
y que tiene grandisimo el trabuco.
Hasta luego. Y piruli-pirula, y a vivir, que son dos dias
EL COJO MANTECAS
LEVANTA PUEBLO CHARNEGO.
SUBIRAS COMO LA LECHE
CUANDO LA PONEN AL FUEGO
> > Los demas le habeis seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien
> que
> > haya un grupo dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que
> aparece en
> > su titulo.
>
> Soc.culture.catalan is not for Catalan language. The charter states
> clearly that it is a group about the Catalan language and the Catalan
> people in Catalan, Spanish, Occitan, French, English or Italian.
>
> > Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para
> la
> > gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
>
> The problems about the creation of the grup in the current terms of
> the
> proposal is what we are discusing now. If you want to discus the RFD,
> fine. If you don't want to, and you are just going to keep on
> repeating
> your mantras and whining about boycotts, racism, discrimination and
> other
> bullshit... you are going to end up killing all of us of an accute
> meningitis.
>
> [snip... plenty of snipping...]
>
> > Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de
> una
> > comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta
> de
> > los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente
> preservar
> > el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
> > tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
> > pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
> > lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo
> hay
> > miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar
> preservarlos
> > no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.
>
> Are there 3 milion 'charnegos' and 500 milions indians in Usenet? Wow!
>
> That IS impressive... Dr. Soria, perhaps those issues are important on
>
> your cloud but they are irrelevant in the discusion of the proposal.
>
> [about 70 lines of stuff already repeated in a number of posts
> deleted]
>
> Salut,
>
> Jaume
>
> -----
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
>
> UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted
> (0,0)
> 9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < .
> >
> La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease"
> --"-"--
> -------
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
antonio ortiz
Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>Aclaro este punto. Creo que eres un experto en flamenco-pop. Rumbitas >y chorradas fusioneras- bakalaisticas. Me parece muy bien, pues eso es >lo que cantan los charnegos en tu tierra
Me da igual lo que pienses en este punto, ya tengo bastante con saber
que a me gusta de verdad tanto el flamenco puro y el flamenco-fussion.
No me considero un experto de ninguna de mis musicas favoritas pero
aficionado y/o forofo si. Y si puedo ayudar a gente como German De
Algeciras y otros forofos del flamenco lo hago encantado.
> muy bien, pues eso es lo que cantan los gitanos en la mia. Es una
> musica de dificil comprension a los no iniciados. Al cante muchos son
> los llamados y pocos los escogidos.
La buena musica no es la que solo entienden unos pocos, te pareces mucho
a algunos jazzeros que creen que cuando menos se entienda su musica es
mejor. La musica flamenca es conocida en todo el mundo y para mi gusto
esta equiparada con el jazz, la musica popular brasileña, la musica
latina y otras musicas de alcance mundial. Y si yo escucho a Juan Breva
no es por que sea de dificil compresion, lo escucho por que me gusta.
> Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
> linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo. Los demas le habeis
No recuerdo que pasara eso exactamente...
> seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que haya un grupo
> dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en su titulo.
Yo seguire hablando castellano en SCC tanto como quiera.
>Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para >la gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
Porque es un mal rollo... Te recuerdo que solo he dicho que dare mi voto
negativo en la votacion, no entorpecere en nada mas y no te inventes
conspiraciones floripóndicas.
> Jaume Canaves en mas de una ocasion nos ha restregado este asunto por
> los güevos con bastante pitorreo. La fecha que dio de plazo me para
> completar el proceso creo que eran 25 años. La expresion empleada fue:
No decia alguien que las news es como la lucha libre americana? :)
Tu tambien has hecho de las tuyas! Y te digo una cosa, podre estar o no
de acuerdo con las ideas de Jaume pero es mucho mas sensato y tolerante
de lo que algunos de vosotros creeis.
>El unico que te crees que la immersion esta planeado como algo >temporero y que se cancelara en el futuro, eres tu. Bueno, quiza no: >Agusti Roig tambien se lo cree. Agusti se lo cree porque es una buena >persona. Tu te lo crees porque eres tonto del bote, que no hay que
La diferencia entre Agusti y yo es que el es "polako" y yo "charnego",
verdad? Siempre tienes el mismo error conmigo y de esta manera no me vas
a convencer. Soy el primero o de los primeros en defender la inclusion
de temas castellanos en SCC como propios. Con estas palabras solo me
haces ver que me consideras de igual manera que tratan algunos radicales
catalanistas a Agusti Roig.
Has pecado de exceso de protagonismo en la defensa de la comunidad
"charnega", en vez de apoyar o adaptar la via de Juanjo Sanmartin y de
un servidor preferiste condenarnos a Juanjo y a mi.
Y otro dato... "malvados enemigos polakos" como Jaume, Arthur, Ilergeta
y otros han defendido nuestras opiniones aunque no las compartieran
necesariamante. Si te fijas en un "bando" estamos un grupo hetereogeneo
(charnegos, polakos no nacionalistas, nacionalistas, independentistas,
etc...), el vuestro es mas homogeneo exceptuando buena gente como Milu
The Goss o German De Algeciras que siempre me han tratado bien.
>la clase de los tontos utiles que van por el mundo de ordenanzas,
>limpiandole las botas al señorito. y lo haces si malicia alguna, >porque estas muy predispuesto a creerte paparruchas oficiales que se
Siempre has demostrado tener hacia mi un nulo respeto asi que no me
escandaliza para nada tus palabras, es como el viento que pasa...
Jamas nos hemos entendido, Emilio.
--
Un saludo de ANTONIO ORTIZ a.k.a. TONY or GERSHWIN
*to...@org.abaforum.es*http://www.abaforum.es/tony
estud...@ciudad.com.ar
In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.971111141136.15185B-100000@biomail>,
"Jaume M. Canaves" <jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>
> [multiple crossposting removed]
>
Y por qué los removieron?
> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se
> > llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.
>
> Catalan CULTURE, my dear Dr Soria. Catalan Culture, and that includes the
> culture of Catalan-speakers, Spanish-speakers, gypsies (like Peret and
> others), etc.
>
Via Dejanews aparece soc.culture.catalunya.
> Of course the group does not refer to the Country!. The purpose of the
> group was creating a group for people living in countries with a common
> Catalan heritage, that is people living in areas in Spain, Italy, France,
> and Andorra, not restricted to Catalonia.
>
> > Si asi fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
>
> The reason for the name is clearly exposed before.
>
> Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the real
> issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
> Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your concerns
> about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
>
> > Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
> > en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.
>
> Well, that was the opinion of a person in a given moment. On the other
> hand Agusti Roig and most of posters have expressed in numerous occasions
> that messages in Spanish are welcome. Perhaps 1/3 or more of my messages
> in soc.culture.catalan are in Spanish!.
>
> > Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
> > linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo.
>
> And you are so naive that when somebody tell you to leave a group because
> of your trolling, you do it... I guess that if in any flame war everybody
> was reacting like you, the group would be empty in two weeks.
>
> Anyway, as clearly exposed in your messages in the thread 'ROBOTITOS A MI'
> and other threads you decided to abandon soc.culture.catalan because of
> the proposed moderation of the group, and most of people told you that if
> you wanted to self-exclude you from the group it was your decision but
> your posts were welcome if they were not crossposted to tons of irrelevant
> groups.
>
> > Los demas le habeis seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que
> > haya un grupo dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en
> > su titulo.
>
> Soc.culture.catalan is not for Catalan language. The charter states
> clearly that it is a group about the Catalan language and the Catalan
> people in Catalan, Spanish, Occitan, French, English or Italian.
>
> > Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
> > gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
>
> The problems about the creation of the grup in the current terms of the
> proposal is what we are discusing now. If you want to discus the RFD,
> fine. If you don't want to, and you are just going to keep on repeating
> your mantras and whining about boycotts, racism, discrimination and other
> bullshit... you are going to end up killing all of us of an accute
> meningitis.
>
> [snip... plenty of snipping...]
>
> > Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de una
> > comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta de
> > los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente preservar
> > el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
> > tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
> > pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
> > lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo hay
> > miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar preservarlos
> > no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.
>
> Are there 3 milion 'charnegos' and 500 milions indians in Usenet? Wow!
> That IS impressive... Dr. Soria, perhaps those issues are important on
> your cloud but they are irrelevant in the discusion of the proposal.
>
> [about 70 lines of stuff already repeated in a number of posts deleted]
>
> Salut,
>
> Jaume
>
Así que seguís en San Diego, y en La Jolla. Je Je, la tierra de Manzano.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
> UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted (0,0)
> 9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < . >
> La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease" --"-"--
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Gurriato Gurriatez
Russ Allbery wrote:
> In news.groups, Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>
> > To exist you need pre-existing traffic
> > To get traffic you need to be existing already
>
> The second statement is wrong. There are innumerable newsgroups in
> which
> the culture of Spanish-speaking Catalans could be discussed now (such
> as
> either soc.culture.spain or soc.culture.catalan). It would, of
> course,
> require that the participants exercise some self-control and not
> engage in
> the on-going flamewars.
We could just as well have a single group in the Net with two million
postings in it.
This is the eternal argument between lumpers and splitters.
I remind you that soc.culture.catalan refers to Catalan, a language and
a culture, not to Catalonia , a country. Otherwise it would have to be
called soc.culture.catalonian. The forum is meant to discuss issues
germane to Catalan culture and language. The main opponent to the
Charnego forum, Mr Sixto made this point quite clear. We are perceived
as intruders in soc.culture.catalan, and our presence is not wanted
there. This forum was not creted to discuss charnego issues.
Soc.culture.spain has already too much traffic. There are days with
more than200 postings. It is almost impossible to follow the threads
coherently. About one third of the traffict consits of Charnego related
matters. I think this is a good time to split into a separate group.
>
>
> > We have expent two weeks trying to contrarrest the bombardement and
> > boycott by people such as Artur Sixto, who has flooded the thread
> with
> > ad hominem falacies and defamations of character
>
> Next time, killfile him and talk about what you want to talk about.
No, Sir. The accussations were made in public and had to be answered.
Otherwise people would think that we agreed wiith his statements. We
would have prefered a calm, peaceful forum in which we would have had a
chance to bring forward the reasons for our desire to create a group,
instead of expendinf hours answering silly accusations. You took these
accusstions quite seriously yourself (you called them "antics"), thus
encouraging them. The proper moderation of this debate would have
required a statement that the group and not the proponents was under
scrutiny. You have rewarded the behaviour of those who made this debate
a riotous hoopla to boycott the project. I have been trying to present
the case with lengthy serious discussions. You seem to pay attention
only to flamewars.
I don't think any one should be given the privilege of silencing a
community by simply orchestrating a barrage of articles difaming the
proponents.
>
>
> > The matter of fact is that the Net has given a forum to a Catalonian
>
> > community of 3 million people (soc.culture.catalan) but denies a
> > simmilar forum to a Catalonian community, also 3 million strong,
> just
> > because is a Spanish speaking one,
>
> Um, no. There is a forum for groups of people who have been on the
> net in
> sufficient numbers to warrant one. Neither of those communities have
> three million people on Usenet, and it's the number of people on
> Usenet
> that's relevant.
Charnegos are more than half the population of Catalonia
Catalan speaking people (less than half) have a group of their own.
Charnegos don't
Does it mean that Charnegos don't use Usenet and Catalan-speaking people
do?
How you count people of different communities using Usenet?
You can count articles in the catalan community because they have a
group
You caanot count ours because we don't have one.
You would not count the tremendous number of Charnego related articles
in soc.culture.spain
You don't accept people sending notes of support to news.groups as a
valid evidence.
How do you supopose we should be proving the existence of large Charnego
participation in Usenet? Pease, tell us.
Americans call it Catch 22: We cannot get a group because we cannot
prove that we participate in sufficient numbers.
We cannot prove taht we participate in sufficient numbers becasuse we
don't have a group.
> > Only the Internet users fluent or semifluent in English had had a
> chance
> > to participate in this traffic of conversations. The relevance of
> the
> > postings in English for the last two weeks in this forum to the
> postings
> > related to the Charnegos posted in Spanish in their own forum do not
>
> > appear quite clear to me.
>
> This sounds like an excellent argument in favor of an es.* newsgroup,
> where the entire discussion could be held in Spanish and where the
> rules
> may be more to your liking. I'd encourage you to investigate that
> possibility.
No, this is again a falacy. I dont think that the percentage of people
fluent in English is higher in Turkey than among the Charnegos, and
turkish speaking people have a soc.culture and we don't. The same apply
to Argeria (I believe) and algerians have a soc.culture. and we don't
I dont think there is a higher total number of English speaking people
in Galicia (Galiza), Spain and they have a soc.culture, and we don't.
Galicians and Basques and Catalonians could carry their discussions sin
soc.culture.spain too, or use a es.* newsgroup.
Mexican Americans could carry their conversations in
soc.culture.mexican, couldn't they?
Why Charnegos are different? The numbers of Charnegos are roughly as
high as the nuimber of Galicians and Basques and Catalonians.
The Catalonian Nationalists want to send us to some absurd group of
expatriates. Would you care to explain why we are the Cinderellas in
this tale. What kind of shoe do you want us to fit in?
Just because a bunch of dedicated far right nationalist want to give the
impression of a solid, monolingual societey and make a lot of noise, it
is not a reason to deny us our room in the Net.
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
Concha
>- La inmersion linguistica se realiza para salvar el idioma catalan y
>para favorecer el bilinguismo de todos los alumnos. Se busca una
>comprension del 50% tanto en catalan y castellano. Si realmente fuera
>para exterminar el castellano estaria en desacuerdo con la inmersion y
>cuando el catalan esté a salvo será innecesaria la exclusividad de la
>enseñanza en catalán.
He leído con mucha atención varios de sus mesurados escritos y me ha
sorprendido lo que aquí escribe. ¿No le parece un poco inocente pensar
que "cuando el catalan esté a salvo será innecesaria la exclusividad
de la enseñanza en catalán"?
Sin querer entrar en un juicio de intenciones (que tanto abundan) me
parece un poco temerario imaginarlo.
Adios
Concha.
mequi mequi!!!
CARLOS F. POLI
>In article <Pine.SOL.3.96.971111141136.15185B-100000@biomail>,
> "Jaume M. Canaves" <jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> [multiple crossposting removed]
>>
>
>Y por qué los removieron?
>
>
>> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>>
>>
>> Catalan CULTURE, my dear Dr Soria. Catalan Culture, and that includes the
>> culture of Catalan-speakers, Spanish-speakers, gypsies (like Peret and
>> others), etc.
>>
>
>Via Dejanews aparece soc.culture.catalunya.
>
Exacto, y como verá esto también ha sido x-posteado allí.
>> Of course the group does not refer to the Country!. The purpose of the
>> group was creating a group for people living in countries with a common
>> Catalan heritage, that is people living in areas in Spain, Italy, France,
>> and Andorra, not restricted to Catalonia.
>>
>> > Si asi fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
>>
>> The reason for the name is clearly exposed before.
>>
>> Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the real
>> issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
>> Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your concerns
>> about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
>>
>> > Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
>> > en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.
>>
>> Well, that was the opinion of a person in a given moment. On the other
>> hand Agusti Roig and most of posters have expressed in numerous occasions
>> that messages in Spanish are welcome. Perhaps 1/3 or more of my messages
>> in soc.culture.catalan are in Spanish!.
>>
>> > Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
>> > linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo.
>>
>> And you are so naive that when somebody tell you to leave a group because
>> of your trolling, you do it... I guess that if in any flame war everybody
>> was reacting like you, the group would be empty in two weeks.
>>
>> Anyway, as clearly exposed in your messages in the thread 'ROBOTITOS A MI'
>> and other threads you decided to abandon soc.culture.catalan because of
>> the proposed moderation of the group, and most of people told you that if
>> you wanted to self-exclude you from the group it was your decision but
>> your posts were welcome if they were not crossposted to tons of irrelevant
>> groups.
>>
>> > Los demas le habeis seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que
>> > haya un grupo dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en
>> > su titulo.
>>
>> Soc.culture.catalan is not for Catalan language. The charter states
>> clearly that it is a group about the Catalan language and the Catalan
>> people in Catalan, Spanish, Occitan, French, English or Italian.
>>
>> > Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
>> > gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
>>
>> The problems about the creation of the grup in the current terms of the
>> proposal is what we are discusing now. If you want to discus the RFD,
>> fine. If you don't want to, and you are just going to keep on repeating
>> your mantras and whining about boycotts, racism, discrimination and other
>> bullshit... you are going to end up killing all of us of an accute
>> meningitis.
>>
>> [snip... plenty of snipping...]
>>
>> > Lo que no esta bien es que se cancelen los derechos linguisticos de una
>> > comunidad de 3 millones de personas. Eso esta en contra de la Carta de
>> > los Derechos Humanos y es un injusticia. Que alguien intente preservar
>> > el idioma Apache o el de los indios Miskitos (pongo por ejemplo. No
>> > tengo nada en contra de esa gente) me parece feten. Lo que no me
>> > pareceria feten es que cogieran a mis niños y los escolarizaran en
>> > lengua miskita por cojones y en contra de mis deseos. En el mundo hay
>> > miles de idiomas, el la India hay mas de 500, y el intentar preservarlos
>> > no es ninguna razon para desposeer a la gente de sus derechos.
>>
>> Are there 3 milion 'charnegos' and 500 milions indians in Usenet? Wow!
>> That IS impressive... Dr. Soria, perhaps those issues are important on
>> your cloud but they are irrelevant in the discusion of the proposal.
>>
>> [about 70 lines of stuff already repeated in a number of posts deleted]
>>
>> Salut,
>>
>> Jaume
>>
>Así que seguís en San Diego, y en La Jolla. Je Je, la tierra de Manzano.
>
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Life is a ___
>> UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y sexually transmitted (0,0)
>> 9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) 100% lethal < . >
>> La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// disease" --"-"--
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
--
Cordialmente desde Quilmes!
Carlos F. Poli, desde Quilmes, Bs. As., Argentina
Concha
Leyendo con cierta atención estos escritos en inglés llego a las
siguientes conclusiones:
Un grupo de personas decide solicitar la creación de
soc.culture.charnego, como foro de las personas de habla castellana de
Catalunya.
Otro grupo se opone por razones de tipo formal (no puede ser
soc.culture......, sino ............
Otro grupo se opone por la utilización del nombre "charnego"
Otro grupo se opone por considerar que deben utilizarse los foros ya
existentes.
Otro grupo lo forman los señores Henrietta Thomas, Lynn Diana
Gazis-Max y Russ Albery, representantes de Dios en la tierra y que
parecen tener la posibilidad de decidir (posibilidad que yo no tengo y
que seguramente es el inicio de una nueva etapa feudal en internet).
Estos últimos ponen de manifiesto inconvenientes relacionados con el
volumen de participantes, la utilización política, pero sobre todo
crean un inconveniente que consiste en su total desconocimiento del
catalán, del castellano y de la problemática tratada.
Sugiero una votación sobre la creación o no del grupo
soc.culture.charnego entre los participantes de soc.culture.spain y
soc.culture.catalan (o de cualquier otro grupo o colectivo o...que se
sienta implicado) para poder así pasar olimpicamente de la CENSURA del
poder en la red. Una vez establecido el resultado, por lo menos no
habrá que dar explicaciones.
Adios
Concha.
mequi mequi!!!
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez
Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> > You would not count the tremendous number of Charnego related articles
>
> I have, in fact, been counting those articles, and have specifically
> mentioned that in nearly every post I've made to this thread as evidence
> that a talk.politics.catalan or talk.politics.catalonia newsgroup would be
> entirely appropriate.
You have mentioned nothing of the sort. You said that all the debate in
this RFD in news.groups had revolved around political flamewars. You
didn't say anything about the charnego traffic on soc.culture.spain
until I pointed it out to you. The fact that you insist that all this
traffic is just politics means that either you haven't really examined
the threads in scs or you didn't understand them, probably because, they
are held in Spanish and Catalan. When I gave you a long list of
nonpolitical topics that had been extensively discussed in the RFD
debates, you dismissed it as irrelevant and accused me of making it up.
Incidentally, Ms. Thomas seems to have taken the time to go back and
work through the debates, and has revised her position accordingly.
Perhaps you should do the same, rather than continue to make snide
comments about our supposed inability to read your posts or express
ourselves.
--
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez Office # (607) 255 5034
Electrical Engineering Home # (607) 758 8962
112 Phillips Hall Fax # (607) 255 4565
Cornell University mailto:enr...@ee.cornell.edu
Ithaca, NY 14853 http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~enrique
Agusti Roig
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
I just want to point out some minor details concerning Ms. Thomas
information:
> And that's what I would like for us all to concentrate on. I have a
> copy of the 1995 World Almanac, and tomorrow, I'll post a brief
> history of Spain, which I think might help some of us Anglos get
> a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
> the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
>
> 72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
> 16.4% Catalan
> 8.2% Galician
> 2.3% Basque
I seriously doubt that "ethnic" is the right word. Maybe it
would be more neutral to talk about "citizens of" Catalonia,
citizens of Basque country..., and citizens of the rest of
the Spain.
> And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
>
> Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
> Spain:
>
> soc.culture.spain
> soc.culture.basque
> soc.culture.catalan
> soc.culture.galiza
>
> Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
> this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit and stop
> the black helicopter nonsense.
Well, I must say first that I don't agree with the existence of such
group soc.culture.charnego, but I don't have enough reasons to vote NO
(in case the CFV arrives some day). Nevertheless, I think that I can
express my opinion about the place where scch could be.
I think that, after reading the opinions expressed by Viper, Enrique
Diaz-Alvarez and Emilio Soria, the problems they talk about are poli-
tical problems. So, maybe, the group they want to create, should be
in the category talk.politics.* or something like this.
Another possibility, is that soc.culture.charnego should be a subgroup
of soc.culture.catalan., and could be called soc.culture.catalan.charne-
go. Of course, this possibility will offend the proponents, in the same
way it would have offended, probably, the proponents of soc.culture.ca-
talan that our group have been called soc.culture.spain.catalan.
But maybe I can say that Catalan culture and language is not exclusively
concentrated in the Catalan autonomous comunity of Spain, but also in
other spanish comunities and there are also catalan-speakers in France
and Italy (although very few). This is not the case about the supposed
"charnego culture": the proponents are only talking about the spanish-spea-
kers of Catalonia. So they are stricktly a subgroup of the catalan citizens.
(Despite 2 of the 3 proponents live actually in the States.)
Agusti Roig
ro...@ma1.upc.es
Gurriato Gurriatez
Agusti Roig wrote:
> Henrietta Thomas wrote:
Since Mr. Ortiz is on vacation I send this note to soc.culture.catalan
also
>
>
> I just want to point out some minor details concerning Ms. Thomas
> information:
>
> > And that's what I would like for us all to concentrate on. I have a
> > copy of the 1995 World Almanac, and tomorrow, I'll post a brief
> > history of Spain, which I think might help some of us Anglos get
> > a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
> > the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
> >
> > 72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
> > 16.4% Catalan
> > 8.2% Galician
> > 2.3% Basque
Pancas arnn't going to like the classification of Valencias as Spanish
rather than Catalan
And I know that you (Agusti) are going to resent taht Castilians are
consider "Spanish" and not the Catalan. Not in vain you are known as
"Agustinico Rojigualda"
And it is comical to find that Francisco Franco Bahamonde, the former
dictator, and Manuel Fraga Iribarne, the former leader of the Spanish
right party (who were both Galicians) are not considred "Spanish" by the
World Almanac.
For one reason or another, most Spaniards would disagree with the above
classification. This is the problem of getting your information from the
World Alamanac. Next time use "el Calendario Zaragozano para el Año
Venidero", which include a collection of Spanish Proverbs and the phases
of the moon. (estos guiris....)
>
>
> I seriously doubt that "ethnic" is the right word. Maybe it
> would be more neutral to talk about "citizens of" Catalonia,
> citizens of Basque country..., and citizens of the rest of
> the Spain.
Citizens is not the corrct word. An American citizen of Polish descent (
a real "polaco" :-|) ) can consider himself ethnically Polish and still
be a proud, patriotic American. Ethnicity has nothing to do with
citizenship.
Spaniards have hear the word "ethnic" mostly when listening the news
about Yugoslavia and Bosnia. To some the word has adquired certain nasty
connotoations. Ethnic only means belonging to a particular cultural,
linguistic or racial community.
>
>
> > And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
> >
> > Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
> > Spain:
> >
> > soc.culture.spain
> > soc.culture.basque
> > soc.culture.catalan
> > soc.culture.galiza
> >
> > Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
>
> > this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit
> and stop
> > the black helicopter nonsense.
>
> Well, I must say first that I don't agree with the existence of such
> group soc.culture.charnego, but I don't have enough reasons to vote NO
>
> (in case the CFV arrives some day). Nevertheless, I think that I can
> express my opinion about the place where scch could be.
>
Now, a private conversation with Agusti in Catalan. Henrietta doens't
need to read it if she doesn't want toAgusti, si s'hagues de votar ara
la soc.culture.charnego, quin seria el sentit del vot catala (inclos el
teu)?
No seria un vot favorable. En aquests moments, hi ha discrepancies
importants que obligarien a introduir modificacions substancials si es
vol el voto afirmatiu dels catalans. A partir d'aqui , nosaltres
intentarem fer el maxim esforç perque aquest grup tingui el maxim de
vots a favor o el minim de vots en contra si els ha de tenir. (Cal que
aprofitem que en Floripondio esta de vacances i aixi obtintrem un vot
negatiu de menys, :-|) )
Hi ha molt de temps per endavant. Despres de la lectura de l'esborrany
de la normativa del grup haura un moment que tots haurem de valorar la
futura normativa, probablement que els proponents harem de fer un ultim
esforç per apropar posicions. Els proponents faran el maxim d'esforç
perque hi hagi el minim de vots en contra del grup. El nostre "ultimate
goal" es aconseguir el vot afirmatiu d' en Sixto (jejeje)
Tots hariem de ser conscients que estem fem una proposta, i una proposta
significa una definicio de principis, dels objectius que volem pel grup.
De vegades es vol arribar a un grau de definicio en alguns aspectes que
es normal llavors que sorgeixin discrepancies.
Nosaltres (els proponents) apostem per una Catalunya bilingüe, amb dues
etnies diferenciades, enfront d'alguns contertulis que advoquen
obertament per una Catalunya monolingüe. Basicament volem que el ciutada
pugui escollir de forma real l'idioma amb el qual es vol relacionar amb
l'Administracio. Catalunya no es Andorra. La situacio social i
linguistica es ben diferent. A diferencia del principat pirinenc
Catalunya te dos idiomes oficials i dues etnies diferenciades. Dins del
futur newsgroup defensarem que la disponibilitat d'escollir la lengua
sigui vigent en els que es public, pero en el que es privat que cadascu
sigui lliure d'empar la llengua que vulgui, sigui castella o catala.
D'alguna forma la proposta del grup estableis diferences entre les
comunitats que viuen a Catalunya. Aixo es un primer reconeixement del
fet diferencial xarnego, una cosa que sembla molestar molt a alguns
contertulis catalans.
> I think that, after reading the opinions expressed by Viper, Enrique
> Diaz-Alvarez and Emilio Soria, the problems they talk about are poli-
> tical problems. So, maybe, the group they want to create, should be
> in the category talk.politics.* or something like this.
>
What an obssesion with the "politics" issue! ( que coñazo, tios). The
only "politics" that are being discussed are the linguistic politics of
the Generalitat towards the Charnego people. This is an IMPORTANT issue
for the Charnego culture and a perfectly legitimate topic of
conversation in a group for the Charnegos. I would imaging that in
soc.culture.kurdish there are a lot of threads about Turkish politics.
Culture has nothing to do with what Mr Russ Albery may think culture is.
He may think of culture as something related to art forms associated
with elites, such as classical forms of literature. music, dancing and
panting.
Sociologically speaking the concept of culture is brodader than that
used in common speech. Here, the term refers to EVERYTHING that is part
of a people's way of life. Politics and economy. Motown as well as
Mozart. Hamburguers as well as gourmet cuisine. Ping pong as well as
polo. Mr. Russ Albery has absolutely no rights to dictate what issues
should be importan in the Charnego world. Let the Charnego decide that
in their conversations in the group.
Culture may be defined as the beliefs, values, behaviour, and material
objects SHARED BY A PARTICULAR PEOPLE. Beliefs and values, particularly
when in conflit with the neighboring culture, result in political
activity. Man is a political animal, you cannot dissociate politics from
culture. This "political" nonsensical issue is a mere excuse to boycott
the project.
Agusti, you also seem to confuse culture with society. CULTURE is a way
of life or a social heritage that certain people have in common. SOCIETY
is the interaction among people within a geographical or political
boundary (which may be guided by one or more cultures living there).
Although the two concepts have different meaning, neither society nor
culture can exist without the other.
Agusti, think of THAT when you propose names for the group. The group
category has the name culture ( and not society) embeded in it.
How did you like the above "mantra:, Agusti? Me he pasao de rosca?
> Another possibility, is that soc.culture.charnego should be a subgroup
>
> of soc.culture.catalan., and could be called
> soc.culture.catalan.charne-
> go. Of course, this possibility will offend the proponents, in the
> same
> way it would have offended, probably, the proponents of
> soc.culture.ca-
> talan that our group have been called soc.culture.spain.catalan.
Should we include the Xurro (Churro in Castilina) etnia of Valencia to
be comprehensive?. This would satisfy the dream of the pancas of the
"Paisos" Empire.
Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
Again, private conversation with Mr Roig, now in Castilian:
Habra que convencer a Sanmarti para que lo acepte. Ya me lo imagino
yendo al juzgado de guardia a quejarse al señor juez de que Viper anda
sacando los tanques a la calle. A ver que piensa el juez cuando lo vea
con todas las vestiduras desgarradas y tal. La verdad es que hay gente
con gran sentido del drama.
>
>
> But maybe I can say that Catalan culture and language is not
> exclusively
> concentrated in the Catalan autonomous comunity of Spain, but also in
> other spanish comunities and there are also catalan-speakers in France
>
> and Italy (although very few). This is not the case about the supposed
>
> "charnego culture": the proponents are only talking about the
> spanish-spea-
> kers of Catalonia. So they are stricktly a subgroup of the catalan
> citizens.
> (Despite 2 of the 3 proponents live actually in the States.)
>
Buenu, Agustinico, meu fill, un salut cordial i fins
aviat
1001 (Miliu) a.k.a EL COJO MANTECAS and GURRIATO
Jaume M. Canaves
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez wrote:
> Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
> > soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
>
> I think this alternative is acceptable, although I still prefer the
> original soc.culture.charnego; the charter of soc.culture.catalan does
> not mention charnegos at all, so it would seem incongruous to make the
> charnego group its subgroup.
Enrique, you are absolutely right in your conclusion but the reason
is wrong. The charter of SCC does not mention charnegos because it doesn't
focus on the Catalan/Spanish/French/Occitan/Italian-speaking people
living in Catalonia, Balearic Islands, Valencia, etc. Language or culture
are not considered in discriminatory terms, and talking about 'charnegos'
would imply a certain discrimination.
The creation of a subgroup in soc.culture.catalan would be justified only
if the traffic in soc.culture.catalan was so big that a split was
necessary, and even then I don't think that 'ethnicity' should be the
criterion to split the group.
As you and other have said, a lot of the traffic about those so-called
'charnego issues' is generated in soc.culture.spain, so I don't think
using traffic from a group to justify a split in a second group makes
much sense.
Anyway, I still support the creation of a talk.politics.catalan or
a talk.politics.<whatever-you-want-instead-of-charnego>. Also, as
Henrietta suggested, you could give a second thought to the idea of
creating a soc.culture.castilian, a soc.culture.spain.castilian, or
a soc.culture.spain.immigrant
Cheers,
Jaume
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Money can't buy love,
UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y but it *can* rent
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) a very close
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// imitation"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Henrietta Thomas
In news.groups on 13 Nov 1997 20:09:22 -0800, Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu>
wrote:
>In news.groups, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez <enr...@ee.cornell.edu> writes:
>
>> The fact that you insist that all this traffic is just politics means
>> that either you haven't really examined the threads in scs or you didn't
>> understand them, probably because, they are held in Spanish and Catalan.
>
>Nope. It means that you're either lying or too wrapped up in the
>political flamewar you're enjoying to be honest with yourself. What you
>are saying is inconsistent with what people who do not have a vested
>political interest in this debate are saying, and what I can see with my
>own eyes.
One way to stop a flamewar is to stop reminding people that they are
having a flamewar, and to do your best to change the subject so that
things can move in a more constructive direction. :-)
>> Incidentally, Ms. Thomas seems to have taken the time to go back and
>> work through the debates, and has revised her position accordingly.
>
>Ms. Thomas is in a habit of taking the underdog position in newsgroup
>creation debates, but you'll notice that she still doesn't think you've
>got an appropriate name for your newsgroup.
And that's what I would like for us all to concentrate on. I have a
copy of the 1995 World Almanac, and tomorrow, I'll post a brief
history of Spain, which I think might help some of us Anglos get
a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
16.4% Catalan
8.2% Galician
2.3% Basque
And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
Spain:
soc.culture.spain
soc.culture.basque
soc.culture.catalan
soc.culture.galiza
Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit and stop
the black helicopter nonsense.
Followups to news.groups, soc.culture.spain.
Henrietta
===
Name of the game, ladies and gentlemen, is to communicate with
each other, NOT fighting. ---Erol Keskin, 10-21-97
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez
Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
> Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
> soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
>
I think this alternative is acceptable, although I still prefer the
original soc.culture.charnego; the charter of soc.culture.catalan does
not mention charnegos at all, so it would seem incongruous to make the
charnego group its subgroup.
Concha
>This sounds like an excellent argument in favor of an es.* newsgroup,
>where the entire discussion could be held in Spanish and where the rules
>may be more to your liking. I'd encourage you to investigate that
>possibility.
Si Bwana.
Adios
Concha.
mequi mequi!!!
Concha
>Ah otra cosa Concha : que cuatro gatos mal contados digan que
>representan a la poblacion castellano-hablante de catalunya es tan
>cierto como cuando eta dice representar al pueblo vasco. Es lo mismo,
>pero dudo que lo entiendas, pesa mas la tirria anti-catalana. Os
>importa una mierda convertir catalunya en una especie de bosnia,
>de hecho no parareis hasta conseguirlo. Maldita seas.
Lamento haberle incomodado. En ningún momento he expresado opinión
alguna a favor o en contra de soc.culture.charnego así que deduzco
algún tipo de prejuicio hacia mi que no comprendo.
No acepto su maldición y le ruego la retire.
Adios
Concha.
mequi mequi!!!
Concha
>the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
>
>72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
>16.4% Catalan
> 8.2% Galician
> 2.3% Basque
You are in the wrong way: Spanish is not an ethnic group. Valencian
and Asturian as well as Cantabrics or Andalusian cant be in the same
bag. Dont try to add apples with oranges. Catalan is not an ethnic
group, neither is galician and basque.
The 100% of Spain is a mixed blood race and a mestizo ethnic group.
Thats not the way to find it out.
>And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
And what about bable, valencian, castuo, chava, and charny?
>Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
>Spain:
>
> soc.culture.spain
> soc.culture.basque
> soc.culture.catalan
> soc.culture.galiza
>
>Where do the Charnego fit in this picture? I don't have an answer to
>this question. I just want serious people to think about it a bit and stop
>the black helicopter nonsense.
The charnego fit exactly in in the middle. A mestizo culture, a border
culture, a new culture, a multilingual culture born as the result of
all others previously settled and now increasingly washed up.
Just the same is happening the last 5.000 years.
Ave Caesar, charnegos te salutant.
Concha.
mequi mequi!!!
Artur Sixto
con...@tough.minded.es (Concha) writes:
|> >Seria absurd que els que podem legitimament votar NO permetem guanyar
|> >una votacio on la majoria de SIs seran de naturalesa il.legitima.
|>
|> Lo que es ilegítimo es deslegitimar sin motivo. Se tienen contrarios
|> pero no enemigos. Usted solo quiere muertos.
I was advising a disgusted LLuis Martinez not to give up his vote.
(He's against soc.culture.charnego but was talking about not voting.)
Translation:
Artur- It would be absurd that those who can legitimately vote NO
should allow the proponents to win a votation where most of YES
votes won't be legitimate [referring to established Usenet criteria,
since most YES votes are likely to come from political sympathy,
while opposition is against hierarchy and name of group choice].
Concha- What is illegitimate is to unlegitimize without reason.
You should have opponents, not enemies. You only want dead people.
I am so flattered that Concha -whose previous messages I answered
in detail- finally got to such an accurate and simple conclusion:
I have enemies that I want dead. (The charnego people I suppose.)
Bravo.
|> mequi mequi!!!
From MEC (Ministerio de Educacion y Cultura)?
From Mecca?
From me(z)quindad?
Sorry, Concha, but this article of yours is real disappointing
after the efforts you made to contribute some data. You were wise
stopping short from offering interpretations. It's sad to read
what I've just read. Very, very sad.
Artur Sixto
Henrietta Thomas
[soc.culture.mexican.american removed from newsgroups line]
In news.groups on Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:13:48 -0800, "Jaume M. Canaves"
<jcan...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Enrique Diaz-Alvarez wrote:
>
>> Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>>
>> > Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
>> > soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
>>
>> I think this alternative is acceptable, although I still prefer the
>> original soc.culture.charnego; the charter of soc.culture.catalan does
>> not mention charnegos at all, so it would seem incongruous to make the
>> charnego group its subgroup.
>
>Enrique, you are absolutely right in your conclusion but the reason
>is wrong. The charter of SCC does not mention charnegos because it doesn't
>focus on the Catalan/Spanish/French/Occitan/Italian-speaking people
>living in Catalonia, Balearic Islands, Valencia, etc. Language or culture
>are not considered in discriminatory terms, and talking about 'charnegos'
>would imply a certain discrimination.
And that, I understand, is because soc.culture.catalan is about a language,
not a place. What is really needed, IMO, is a newsgroup to talk about a
place - Catalonia - which would then have a subgroup to talk about a
particular people who live in that place and (for want of a better word)
call themselves Charnego. This leads me to:
soc.culture.catalonia
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego
What do you think?
Henrietta
Henrietta Thomas
In news.groups on Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:03:42 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
[snip]....
>Sociologically speaking the concept of culture is brodader than that
>used in common speech. Here, the term refers to EVERYTHING that is part
>of a people's way of life. Politics and economy. Motown as well as
>Mozart. Hamburguers as well as gourmet cuisine. Ping pong as well as
>polo. Mr. Russ Albery has absolutely no rights to dictate what issues
>should be importan in the Charnego world. Let the Charnego decide that
>in their conversations in the group.
>
>Culture may be defined as the beliefs, values, behaviour, and material
>objects SHARED BY A PARTICULAR PEOPLE. Beliefs and values, particularly
>when in conflit with the neighboring culture, result in political
>activity. Man is a political animal, you cannot dissociate politics from
>culture. This "political" nonsensical issue is a mere excuse to boycott
>the project.
I do not think Mr. Allbery is trying to "boycott the project." I think he is
trying to prevent the word "culture" being used to promote a purely
political objective. I agree with Mr. Allbery on that point. A culture group
should focus more on culture than on politics. This does not mean
that you never talk politics in soc.culture groups; it only means that
politics is not the main event.
[snip].....
>Now seriously: I would have no objections to call the group
>soc.culture.catalan.charnego. I think is a cute name.
I am seriously suggesting the creation of two groups:
soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)
What do you think? Would you be a proponent?
Juanjo Sanmartín
Henrietta Thomas <h...@wwa.com> escribió en artículo
<346d176d...@news.wwa.com>...
> I am seriously suggesting the creation of two groups:
>
> soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
OK, and soc.culture.balears, and soc.culture.valencia, and one ofr each
country were speaking catalan?. Seriously, soc.culture.catalan receive
inputs from all catalan countries and even (sometimes subduely) from
anticatalan (not only anticatalanist) people living out of Catalonia, like
most of defending of the S.C.Ch. group.
> soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)
>
In 34 years a lived in Catalonia, i've heard and readed the word "charnego"
less times than the last week, and the proponent (the presumed delinquent
Viper) is the first, I repeat the first person I know who is proud to name
himself "charnego", the first who calls (who insults) his companions,
neighbors, teachers, etc. born in Catalonia or catalan speakers, like
"polakos" (this is very, really too much, frequent in Spain but out of the
catalan countries) , and finally the first who calls (who insults) his
companions, neighbors, etc. with spanish roots (catalan or castilian
speakers), like "Charnegos".
Remember or inquire yourself seriously, the "charnego" is not a people, the
"polako" is not a people, the "bastard" is not a people, the "motherfucker"
is not a people, etc..
> What do you think? Would you be a proponent?
>
> Henrietta
> ===
> Name of the game, ladies and gentlemen, is to communicate with
> each other, NOT fighting. ---Erol Keskin, 10-21-97
>
That's clear what i think about, Mrs. Henrietta? Please don't fall into the
trap of the heiress (even unvoluntary) of the persecutors of the catalan
language and culture, still minorised.
Sincerely, a catalan with spanish roots and castilian speaker but, above
all proudly catalan, like most of the "famous" 3 million people like me.
Juanjo Sanmartín
P.S.: Please, stop soon this pitiful matter. Sorry for my poor english.
Artur Sixto
NAME ALTERNATIVES TO S.C.CHARNEGO SO FAR
Jaume M Canaves:
talk.politics.catalan
talk.politics.<whatever-you-want-instead-of-charnego>.
Russ Allbery
|>talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some
|>people apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing
|>another may be wise.
Henrietta Thomas:
soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)
`Sinner':
alt.politics.*
alt.misc.flames.catalonia-and-argentina
alt.flame.catalonia
alt.talk.politics.catalonia
1) I think an alt.poltics.* or a talk.politics.* group would be
allright. I disagree with the soc.culture hierarchy for reasons
that I've been on and on about. Basically: `charnego' doesn't
define a culture, and neither does it to be a spanish speaker
(coming from different places and being 400 million worldwide).
2) I disagree completely with a soc.culture.catalonia because:
^^^^^^^^^
-there's never been any demand for that group
-people are very keen to share a group between all catalan
speakers since the issues they face in the territories
sharing this language are intimately interrelated. For example,
the `charnego' issue is replicated in Valencia where the terms
`blavero' and `pancas' kind of substitute (politically) for
`charnego' and `polako'. That's why the group was named after
the language and not after regional boundaries.
-the creation of s.c.catalonia would be very detrimental
to s.c.catalan. It would either divert people at random
from the sister group, or it would be a clone of it.
-it would be confusing: people wanting to know about
Catalan culture would wonder which way to go.
-the traffic in s.c.catalan is far too low for a split
to be advantageuos rather than damaging.
3) Regarding the word `charnego', it's just unacceptable to me.
Charnego is a taboo word in Catalonia. It's understood by
most people to be an insult and it's just unthinkable that
a newsgroup can be called like that (except maybe in some
alt.outrageous.charnego form that nobody is interested in).
For the same set of reasons I think A. Roig's proposal of
soc.culture.catalan.charnego -being basically equivalent
to the original proposal- is just as unacceptable. It would
split soc.culture.catalan and incorporate an impossible word.
I suggest:
talk.politics.spain.languages
talk.politics.spain.bilingualism
talk.politics.catalan.countries
talk.politics.catalonia.bilingualism
But to be honest, the reasonable thing would be to let this
frenzy cool down and see what people want to have after
s.c.catalan's robomoderation is implemented. (That is, to
postpone the whole RFD/CFV procedure until then.)
This robomoderation is what prompted the proponents to
launch an s.c.ch. group thinking they would be prevented
from participating in s.c.catalan. (?) When robomoderation
is implemented they will come back to s.c.catalan after
a while and participate the same way catalan speakers are
now participating in s.c.s. and s.c.c. keeping the threads
separate. Either they will do that, I predict, or they'll
just loose interest in the whole affair and stay only in
s.c.s., or won't lose interest but will discuss in s.c.s.
the `charnego' issue (forgetting completely about the
creation of a specific group for that).
Artur Sixto
Gurriato Gurriatez
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> In news.groups on Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:53:36 +0100, "Miguel Angel"
> <ma...@iies.es>
> wrote:
>
> [snip].....
>
> Thanks for revealing the inadequacies of my Almanac. Other people
> have said similar things. (Note: These Almanacs are all written by
> Westerners, who often have no real knowledge of the countries they
> write about, and they apply Western terms - which may or may not
> be appropriate).
>
> Thanks also for reminding me about soc.culture.asturies. It is indeed
>
> a soc.culture.* group related to the country of Spain. So that makes
> five altogether, and if we ever get a proposal going here, I intend to
>
> ask that the RFD be posted to all five groups.
>
> >The Charnego term, an old derogatory one to refer to the Spanish
> speaking
> >immigrants to Catalonia, fits with the Spanish terms Moro (Moorish),
> Sudaca
> >(South-American) and with the French “Métèque”. Charnego especially
> well
> >fits with the second: Sudaca. And just for your information, there
> are
> >several associations in Spain, formed of South-Americans that have
> assumed
> >the tem Sudaca to refer to themselves, changing the derogatory
> meaning of
> >the term, into a positive one. And that is what I suppose that Mr.
> Viper
> >wants to do with a new group called soc.culture.charnego. Because I
> >understand things in this way, I support the creation of such group,
> the
> >same as I would support the creation of a Sudaca, or Moro group if
> such
> >groups were proposed with a similar aim.
Moro (Moor) is not a derogatory term. For instance, Mauritania means
land of the Moors.The Muslims of The Philippines call themselves Moros.
There was a Moro Liberation Front fighting for independence.
This is an example of a perfectly neutral word, Moro, used by some in a
derogatory way
Charnego is another such word .
This is not the case with Sudaka, which was a humorous deformation of
the word "sudamericano" with the use of the suffix "aka" which, together
with the suffix "ata" made many a word in the "Cheli" slang often used
by marihuana smokers ("fumatas") It is generally only mildly teasing,
although I imaging somebody can make it really insulting depending on
the context. Besides, Sudaka has a correct alternative: "Sudamericano".
Charnego doesn't have any synonims, unles using clumsy circumloquia
filling an entire page: "Immigrant to Catalonia who speaks bla, bla,
bla....."
Not long ago Juanjo Sanmartin made some wild and preposterous
accusations to Viper as being some sort of outlaw or criminal, proposing
a general insurrection in the country and advicing the Charnegos to
violently overthrow the government or something.
I found the whole thing quite comical, to say the truth. Mr Sanmartin
has always made such great and cute shows of being shocked! But this
last one has been simply hysterical :-)))))))))))))) !!!!!!!!! These
nationalists do not know what to invent any more to impress the
"gringos" (just kidding, no derogatory intention meant here)
We have asked once and again: if this people are not called Charnegos,
what are they called then? No answer, or may be "they are not called
anything because they do not exist" Some Catalan nationalists are
frustated abort the presence of an independent minded minority (which is
in reality a numerical majority) and react in the ostrich way, sticking
their heads in the sand: THEY DO NO EXIST, THEY DO NOT HAVE A NAME .
Please, be aware that these ideas are nothing but a trick to destroy the
project. Some eve said that the word Charnego was similar to the word
"nigger: the ultimate ethnic slur. Please read the anecdote published in
the newspapers of the newsman asking the archbishop is he was a
Charnego. Can you imagine a newsman asking a Black archbishop:"Sir, are
you a nigger?"
Sincerely
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
>
>
> Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more
> about the word "charnego." Now I have another question: In another
> thread, someone said the word is banned. Do you know if this is
> true? If so, do you know if it was banned by law?
>
> Slowly but surely, we are going to get all the pieces of this
> puzzle......
>
> Henrietta Thomas
> Chicago, Illinois, USA
> h...@wwa.com
> ---
> Confused by the noise in news.groups? For an in-depth explanation,
> see the Bernstein/McQuitty news.groups FAQ:
> http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html
Henrietta Thomas
[snip].....
Thanks for revealing the inadequacies of my Almanac. Other people
have said similar things. (Note: These Almanacs are all written by
Westerners, who often have no real knowledge of the countries they
write about, and they apply Western terms - which may or may not
be appropriate).
Thanks also for reminding me about soc.culture.asturies. It is indeed
a soc.culture.* group related to the country of Spain. So that makes
five altogether, and if we ever get a proposal going here, I intend to
ask that the RFD be posted to all five groups.
>The Charnego term, an old derogatory one to refer to the Spanish speaking
>immigrants to Catalonia, fits with the Spanish terms Moro (Moorish), Sudaca
>(South-American) and with the French “Métèque”. Charnego especially well
>fits with the second: Sudaca. And just for your information, there are
>several associations in Spain, formed of South-Americans that have assumed
>the tem Sudaca to refer to themselves, changing the derogatory meaning of
>the term, into a positive one. And that is what I suppose that Mr. Viper
>wants to do with a new group called soc.culture.charnego. Because I
>understand things in this way, I support the creation of such group, the
>same as I would support the creation of a Sudaca, or Moro group if such
>groups were proposed with a similar aim.
Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more
Henrietta Thomas
In news.groups on 15 Nov 1997 11:10:37 GMT, "Juanjo Sanmartín"
<ain...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]....
>In 34 years a lived in Catalonia, i've heard and readed the word "charnego"
>less times than the last week, and the proponent (the presumed delinquent
>Viper) is the first, I repeat the first person I know who is proud to name
>himself "charnego", the first who calls (who insults) his companions,
>neighbors, teachers, etc. born in Catalonia or catalan speakers, like
>"polakos" (this is very, really too much, frequent in Spain but out of the
>catalan countries) , and finally the first who calls (who insults) his
>companions, neighbors, etc. with spanish roots (catalan or castilian
>speakers), like "Charnegos".
>Remember or inquire yourself seriously, the "charnego" is not a people, the
>"polako" is not a people, the "bastard" is not a people, the "motherfucker"
>is not a people, etc..
[snip].....
>P.S.: Please, stop soon this pitiful matter. Sorry for my poor english.
Nothing wrong with your English. We will wrap this thing up just as
soon as we possibly can.
And do not worry about me getting caught in a trap. The more I
learn about a situation, the better I am able to deal with it. And I
have learned a great deal by discussing the pros and cons of
this proposal.
Concha
>I am so flattered that Concha -whose previous messages I answered
>in detail- finally got to such an accurate and simple conclusion:
>I have enemies that I want dead. (The charnego people I suppose.)
>Bravo.
You are not flattered, you are flattened por la extremada necesidad de
concordar los propios deseos con la realidad. La solución es fácil: se
niega toda evidencia y de paso se acusa al interlocutor (y mucho mejor
poniendo en su boca palabras nunca dichas). Al principio lo imaginé
producto algún problema de comprensión lectora, pero ahora ya lo
achaco a una evidente mala fe.
. It's sad to read
>what I've just read. Very, very sad.
Lo que es triste es que una persona aparentemente capacitada no pueda
ser objetivo. Ni siquiera lo intente.
Si quieres, puedes decir la última palabra-. No mereces respuesta.
Adios
Concha.
mequi mequi!!!
Miguel Angel
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>
>[snip].....
>Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more
>about the word "charnego." Now I have another question: In another
>thread, someone said the word is banned. Do you know if this is
>true? If so, do you know if it was banned by law?
>
>Slowly but surely, we are going to get all the pieces of this puzzle......
>
Hello again Ms. Thomas
The Spanish law is not so detailed to ban a single word. I suppose that like
in almost any other country, it is the social usage that determines the
inadequacy of a term to refer to some people. When in a trial someone claims
to be offended by a word that he considers to be derogatory for him, the
judge have to decide based on its social usage, to this purpose almost
official Dictionaries, like the one of the Spanish Academy can help, but
they do not give the last word.
And what I suppose is quite clear is that no judge will consider derogatory
a term used for someone to refer to himself. So if Mr. Viper, proponent of
the RFD wants to be included in a group called “charnego” there is no judge
or law in Spain to ban this.
Let me add another comment on the term charnego. The opposite “polaco” is
sometimes used to refer to the Catalan-speaking population of Catalonia. It
can be people that considers this term (polaco) derogatory, and perhaps that
was the truth in the past. Recently, a prestigious Catalan writer: Vázquez
Montalbán entitled one of his last books with the title “Un polaco en la
corte del Rey Juan Carlos” (A “polaco” in Juan Carlos King’s Court”)
referring to himself as polaco. Just to illustrate, once more, how social
usage changes with time, and derogatory terms of the past are proudly used
for the people to whom the former offending terms were addressed.
I hope this help to clarify a little bit the point.
Miguel Angel
ma...@iies.es
P.S. I did not translate “polaco” as Pole because the joke behind this term
(how difficult is to understand polish for a Spaniard) could not be shared
with Poles.
Miguel Angel
Gurriato Gurriatez escribió:
[snip]
I almost fully agree with your comments Mr. Gurriatez, but I would like to
clarify just one point. In this thread I tried to show to Ms. Thomas just
how the meaning of initially derogatory terms change to the point they are
assumed with a new, possitive meaning, by people who suffered them in the
past. This is, from my point of view, the case with charnego. Mr. Mario in a
sepparate thread has shown current possitive usages of the term charnego,
what illustrates my possition.
The example of "sudaca", slang for South-American, I thought could be
helpful because its change of usage. Or perhaps the "métèque" of Moustaki
can serve as an example of a former derogatory term that changes to a
possitive one.
But there are some additional terms that have changed. As you quite well
know, the term "rojo" (red) was used by fascists in Spain in a derogatory
usage, to the point that you could complain to a judge for being called that
(supposed that you were not). Nowadays there are people that proudly claim
to be "rojo" (not to many but there are), and no judge will condemn anyone
for calling "rojo" to a neighbour. Things change and words evolve with them.
The same, in my oppinion, applies to charnego.
Un cordial saludo.
Miguel Angel
Johny Maracas
On 15 Nov 1997 05:46:45 GMT, as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Artur Sixto)
wrote:
>
>|> mequi mequi!!!
>
>From MEC (Ministerio de Educacion y Cultura)?
>From Mecca?
>From me(z)quindad?
>
Eureka! I've found it! It's Latin: ME QUI [VULT] [?]:
"Who wants me ?" :-D
Johny
_ _ _
"Yes, I too can love." -- Count Dracula
Bram Stoker,«Dracula»
Email to: johny_...@hotmail.com
Con...@tough.minded.es
There a lot of missinformation about the term "charnego".
Please take a look at "Diccionario de argot español" (Víctor León
1980: 61):
Charnego, ga m. y f. En Cataluña, inmigrante de otra región.
As you can see there's actually no reference to pejorative
involvements. A lot of examples of meaning change for different words
have been mailed here.
In the other hand. My great-grandfather use to call "xarnego" (the
translation to catalan) to those people whose parents were french and
catalan (please note that some 100 years ago only a few spanish
inmigrants arrived to Catalonia). Years later, the same word became a
usual peyorative term for the inmigrants from the rest of Spain.
Around the 60's begun proud cultural movements specially in those
neighborhoods were inmigrants were concentrated. Thus, these peoples
then felt they were no more "spaniards" and neither "catalan". The
problem was worsening as the second and third generation grew.
A Valencian writer, former member of the Communist Party, called
Francisco Candel, through his writing "Donde la ciudad cambia de
nombre", presented a new vission of that new boundary: a new culture
as the result of a mixture - mestizo. Not a race miscegenation but a
culture one. Just as ever. One culture plus other = a new one. The
charnego.
Thus, the word charnego changed its connotations, the derogatory one,
to define a group of people.
Indeed, this mestizo culture, receives influences from both "spanish"
and "catalan" cultures" that can be found in meals (gastronomy), taste
(fashion), habits, relations, etc, and language.
For there is a new languaje! For instance, a great catalan singer and
composer, Joan Manuel Serrat (a charnego) in his LP ",...para piel de
manzana"(Ariola 1975) sings a song called "Caminito de la obra". The
following words are used:
Robinada = oxidada = oxidized
plegar = finalizar la jornada = to end work
arrepenchao = apoyado = to rest
escampa = extiende = to spread
tocho = ladrillo = brick
enchegará = pondrá en marcha = to start
calé = pasta, dinero = money
vale = de acuerdo = ok
empaso = tragó = to swallow
chala = alcantarilla = sewer
paleta = albañil = bricklayer
trabanqueta = zancadilla = trip
barrecha = bebida hecha de dos licores = a drink
porlan = cemento = cement
There a lot of other examples of charnego words of which i can give
information if required.
The soc.culture.charnego is to be engaged with a multicultural,
multilingual, multiethnic group of people. All of them between the old
"spanish" culture and the old "catalan" culture. As I am arguing the
assumption of a new awareness is the best approach to the real thing.
The people in the boundaries always create their own cultural
increasing awareness. The internalisation of the charnego reality
depends only on the charnego people.
Please move beyond the mainstream of significance and take an overview
to the raise of the culture we share.
Thank you for your attention.
Milú the Goss
mequi mequi!!!
Artur Sixto
[subject was: Re: Your opinion is important, Agusti.
(sobre soc.culture.charnego)]
h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) writes:
|> Thank you very much, Miguel Angel, for helping me to learn more
|> about the word "charnego." Now I have another question: In another
|> thread, someone said the word is banned. Do you know if this is
|> true? If so, do you know if it was banned by law?
I'd like to nuance Miguel Angel's information.
`Charnego' doesn't equate with `meteque' in french or `sudaca' in
spanish. I used the word `sudaca' for years not suspecting any
derogatory connotations. I got quite surprised to learn that some
people considered the word derogatory, particularly the latinamericans
in Spain. Since then, I've avoided the word.
`Charnego' is a word banned from language, but not by law! It's just
a social convention and matter of good sense. Since the word acquired
strong derogatory connotations, everybody started to avoid it except
the odd xenophobe insulting some immigrant.
To give you an example, I might still sometimes use the word `sudaca'
(to which I never attributed derogatory connotations) but I could
never, ever, use the word `charnego' neither in public nor on my own,
because it offends me. Not that the word could ever apply to me,
because I am catalan speaking and both my parents are catalan speaking
and descended from catalans. The word offends me because I can't help
associating it with the stupid xenophobes and racists that made it
into an insult decades ago.
It's been like that for decades and though I travel to Catalonia
several times a year, I've failed to detect any changes regarding
the word. I am unaware of any new fashion to recycle that word into
a group thing. From the reactions seen in soc.culture.catalan, from
spanish and catalan speakers alike, there is no such change and the
word is as offensive as it has been for decades.
People swearing the opposite are just those supporting the creation
of the newsgroup because they can't find a better word they say. They
are though, perfectly aware of the offensiveness of the word whatever
they say, to the point that I believe it's part of their reasons to
chose it. They pretend they want to `epater le bourgeois' (despite
being very much bourgeois themselves) but the pleasure comes more
from offending the catalan people than anything else. Another reason
is just political: trying to create something by putting a name on
it. Trying to turn a very heterogeneous mass of spanish speakers in
Catalonia, or part of that mass, into a community buying the `charnego'
propaganda and allowing itself to be used politically against catalan
parties and governmental policies. Viper has proudly defined himself
the whole thing in s.c.spain as agitprop. He kind of pictures himself
on some virtual barricade (very safely though).
You will find from time to time -unfrequently- the word `charnego'
used without insulting purposes, but it's rare. It's usually in
printed text, either journalistic or books when referring (directly
or not) to the historical context in which the word became an insult.
In these rare cases, it's not that the word has lost any derogatory
meaning: it's because it points to a situation of the past or a
situation in which other people might have used the word (derogatorily).
E. Diaz-Alvarez provided an example of that, recently, trying to `prove'
the normal use of the word. In a follow-up I explained already that
the journalist didn't use that word innocently. It's a policy in the
El Pais and other newspapers based in Madrid to present the situation
in Catalonia as one where catalan nationalism goes to far. Using the
word charnego in that interview was transparently intended to convey
to readers the notion that this kind of treatment is common in Catalo-
nia. The intention was that, and it made the journalist use `charnego'
despite the context being wrong: nobody would ever have applied the
word to an ecclesiastic, and much less to a bishop.
Anyway. You will never hear the word `charnego'. If you happened to,
it would be on a rare occasion and as an insult.
It's amazing that we should almost present a thesis on this subject
to substantiate here what everyone knows in the streets in my country.
E. Soria, Viper and colleagues imposed on everybody their polako/charnego
terminology in their threads in s.c.spain and s.c.catalan and that's
all. They have even inadvertently implied its offensiveness when they
say that `polako' is an insult that goes together with `charnego' as
opposites.
The word is an insult and I will oppose any newsgroup with that name,
in any hierarchy.
Artur Sixto
Gurriato Gurriatez
Miguel Angel wrote:
> I almost fully agree with your comments Mr. Gurriatez, but I would
> like to
> clarify just one point. In this thread I tried to show to Ms. Thomas
> just
> how the meaning of initially derogatory terms change to the point they
> are
> assumed with a new, possitive meaning, by people who suffered them in
> the
> past. This is, from my point of view, the case with charnego. Mr.
> Mario in a
> sepparate thread has shown current possitive usages of the term
> charnego,
> what illustrates my possition.
>
Picking a name for a newly created newsgroup is a lot licke picking one
for a baby: You want one that sounds good, one most people won't make
fun of and -most important- one everyone can agree on.
But instead of getting just mum, dad and maybe the grandparents to like
it, group proponents have it a little tougher. They need a name that the
entire world is happy with. That's not always easy, because it seems
everyone has an opinion. Just ask people in soc.culture.spain and
soc.culture.catalan about the Charnego group. There's no doubt that the
naming of the group is the toughest part to its approval. Both
Catalonians and Charnegos take the naming seriously. Community identity
is at stake. It is a matter of PRIDE
I believe that when Charnego people embrace the term "Charnego pride"
they mean more than they are unembarrassed by their language and
culture. They mean that to be Charnego is no disgrace, but an honor. Not
just the absence of shame, but delight and assertiveness in valuing an
ethnic designation that has long been stigmatized in Catalonia.
There is an important virtue in this assertion of the value of the
Charnego way of life. It combats something still eminently in need of
challenge: the assumption that because of their language and culture
Charnego people are stupid, francoist, "un-european", low, and that
because of their language Catalonian speaking people are smart,
developped, european, righteous.
Prejudice and discrimination persist in Catalonian society because they
are mutually reinforcing: Stereotypes become very real to those who
believe them, thus a category of people may become what they are defined
to be. By labeling a minority negatively and then acting accordingly,
people make their definition of the situation real in its consequences.
By considreing their culture an inferior product that has to be
erradicated may lead Catalonians to withhold equal access to jobs,
income, education, and political rights. Already an intensive propaganda
campaign has taken place indicating that "immersion" is meant to provide
better chances to kids to obtain a better job. This has became a self
fulfilled prophecy. As a matter of fact, the cultural and linguistic red
tape of the Catalonian government has caused the loss of thousands of
jobs for theCharnegos. While immersion policies do no produce innate
inferiority, it produces social inferiority , constraining many
Charnegos to poverty, low-prestige occupations, and poor housing in
Catalonia.
Catalonian tolerance to the cultural and linguistic diversity that does
occur is limited. The social movement to make Catalan the only official
language of the country is hardly encouragement of pluralism.The
movement is litle more than a backlash against ther rising percentage of
Charnegos in the population. It is an expression of xenophobia. Those
who would force everybody to speak Catalan are simply trying to stamp
out cultural systems on everyone
To some Americans, the idea of designating Catalan as the only official
language of Catalonia may seem an unnecessary law, even a bit silly
-after all, doesn't virtually everybody speak Catalan there? The
answer, in a word, is NO. In fact virtually everybody is fully fluent in
Spanish, but only half the population can converse in Catalan in an
adequate level. Making fluency in Catalanan a condition sine qua non for
high level jobs is de facto discriminating to more than half the
population. Converting the language of a numerical minority in an elite
status symbol is the worse form of discrimination that can be done in a
country.
Language -in a sense, our cultural heritage in coded form- is the most
important mean of cultural transmission, the process by which culture is
passed from one generation to the next. In certain ways, humans beings
may appear to be prisoners of culture, just as other animals are
prisoners of biology. Over millions of years of human evolution, the
evolution of languager and culture gradually took our species out of a
world shaped largely by biology into a world we shape extensively for
ourselves. The more we discover about the operation of our culture, the
greater will be our ability to use the freedom it offers to us.
Sincerely
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
Gurriato Gurriatez
Robert Kaplan wrote:
> I actually went and looked at all the travel guides on Catalonia (here
> in
> Texas).
>
> The ones that mention the word xarnego (or charnego) ALL indicate it
> is
> derogatory.
>
> Salu2,
>
> Pinko
>
I don't think Texan travel guides, checked out by an Argentinian, should
be an important criterium to name the group.
Pinko, for Christ's sake, you don't know what you are talking about.
Don't trivialize the issue.
GURRIATO GURRATEZ
(Ademas, nunca fuiste a mirar las guias, embusterazo, que te conozco. A
ti lo que te gusta es andar metiendo baza en todas las conversaciones,
sin saber de que coños va la cosa. Cosmopolita que es el compadrito...
Fiktor Part Deux.)
Gurriato Gurriatez
Artur Sixto wrote:
> Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
>
> |> > Mr. Soria, why don't you put your shit together and focus on the
> real
> |> > issue: the RATIONALE for the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
> |> > Soc.culture.catalan is working well, and you can address your
> concerns
> |> > about the health of the group anywhere else. Don't you think so?
> |>
> |> Chaumita de misentrañas, I dont put shit together or separate. I
> don't
> |> play with shit since age 1. I don't expect to play with shit until
> I'll
> |> be ninety or so.Then I'll be drawing four bars with it on the walls
> of
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> |> the nursing home (recuerdos a Guifredo el Peludo, jejeje)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> The `four bars' (= 4 stripes) that E. Soria `Gurriato' will be drawing
>
> with shit on the walls refer the catalan flag, which is known as the
> `four bars flag'. This is the kind of subtle humour that E. Soria and
> his friends are inflicting all the time on soc.culture.catalan.
>
> `Recuerdos a Guifredo el Peludo' means `regards to Wilfred the Hairy'
> and refers to Guifre el Pilos, the founder of the catalan royal
> dinasty
> or House of Barcelona. It reigned in Catalonia from the 9th til the
> 15th
> century (one of the longest lasting dinasties in the world). The guy
> is
> considered the `father of the country' and is legendarily attributed
> the
> creation of the catalan flag. He is just an historical guy associated
> with symbology and legends in Catalonia. That's what E. Soria craps
> on,
> and on and on and on.
>
> E. Soria suffers from an infantile psychological condition know as
> encopresis: crapping around on purpose, in despite.
>
> [I won't answer the rest of his 216 lines. Haven't got enough bleach.]
>
> Artur Sixto
>
> ps: I am against saluting flags, etc, and against severe fines and
> imprisonment for people who burn flags. I am not even against
> E. Soria crapping on the catalan flag. It's only that he always
> craps on the same one, and it gets more and more _boring_.
Yeah, must be very boring to follow me around all day long, reading all
I write, reviewing the archives for my old articles, clipping excerpts
of them.....hoping to give me un bon cop de falç.
> Mr. Soria, if was the nurse looking after you, I would have you
> drawing those four bars with shit 1000 times all over the wall.
Sixto, I am NOT running for office. There is no need of your
investigations.
Sixto investigates everything about the proponents of groups nowdays.
Sixto and his friends really like to dig up dirt. You want a newsgroup
and they hold up X-rays of yor chilhood.
Did you read about the video of the tycoon with the "lady" from
Equatorial Guinea? The judge has given an orden not to show any more
pictures in the paper "YA".
Everybody has an skeleton in their closet. The Catalan nationalists keep
hoping it's in there fooling around with another skeleton. If you have a
skeleton in your closet, Playboy and Penthouse will run nude photos of
it in next month's issue. Jejeje, You make me feel like one of these TV
evangelists
Too bad the dirt wasn't that good. Cave paintings in the nursing home
walls when I'll be ninety, in response to Jaume's advice to "put your
shit together".
You have MANY skeletons in your closet, querido Samicro. You remind me
of one when you mentioned those nurses taking care of me. Do you
remember when you said that you liked to go to parties dressed as a
nurse and show your tities to excite people. I could dig the story for
your reading pleasure, if you insist...Remember, els Charnegos tambe
esmolem ben be les eines.
Que tremoli l'enemic!!!!
By the way, do you know which part of my anatomy I call Wifredo el
Peludo (Wilfred the Hairy)?
How do you call yours, Pepino el Breve?
Saludos afectuosos
Gurriato Gurriatez
Viper
Juanjo Sanmartín wrote:
> and the proponent (the presumed delinquent Viper) is the first,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would like to ask Mr. Allbery or whoever, what I am supposed to do when
you're submitted to this stream of insults and personal vexations.
I DON'T LIKE SANMARTINES. I PREFER SANFERMINES.
PLEASE, STOP YOUR B.S.
Sanmartí, mamón, que te parta un rayo.
--
+-------------------------------------+
| Viper |
+-------------------------------------+
| mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es |
| Polytechnic University of Catalonia |
| Barcelona, Spain. |
+-------------------------------------+-+
| Votad/Voteu SI a soc.culture.charnego |
+-------------------------------------+-+
Viper
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
> Spain:
>
> soc.culture.spain
> soc.culture.basque
> soc.culture.catalan
> soc.culture.galiza
Excuse me, Ms. Thomas, but you forgot soc.culture.asturias.
Artur Sixto
[ subject was `Re: Your opinion is important, Agusti. Was:
Me meto donde no me llaman (sobre soc.culture.charnego)' ]
Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
|> Artur, con cierta razon, llamo la atencion al hecho de que el grupo se
|> llama soc.culture.CATALAN, refiriendose al idioma, no al pais.Si asi
|> fuera deberia haberse llamado soc.culture.CATALUNYA.
|> Tambien expreso la opinion de que la mayoria del trafico tendria que ser
|> en catalan, con la tolerancia de algun articulo ocasional en castellano.
This is true. (But it's not a matter of tolerance. It was a recommendation
to users that can write in catalan and answer people who can read catalan.)
|> Por ese motivo expulso a la gente del grupo a la que no consideraba
|> linguistica o idelogicamente deseable en el grupo. Los demas le habeis
This is false. No one expelled anybody from s.c.catalan: you left.
(Besides, it's impossible to expell anyone from an unmoderated group.)
|> seguido la corriente y me parece la mar de bien que haya un grupo
|> dedicado a hablar en una lengua determinada que aparece en su titulo.
|> Lo que no me parece nada bien es el bloqueo de crear otro grupo para la
|> gente de Cataluña de habla castellana.
This also is false. We are not against a group for people to have
flame wars in spanish about Catalonia. We are against such a group
being a soc.culture one, and above all, against calling it `charnego'.
|> Tu pareces ser el unico que no esta al tanto del proyecto de
|> erradicacion del castellano mediante el metodo de cambiar la lengua
|> materna de los niños antes de que tengan uso de razon.^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> Jaume Canaves en mas de una ocasion nos ha restregado este asunto por
|> los güevos con bastante pitorreo. La fecha que dio de plazo me para
|> completar el proceso creo que eran 25 años.
^^^^^^^
That was Jaume's mistake. In fact he meant 2.5 years, but in his
big hurry he forgot the point. :-))
|> El resto del polakerio esta perfectamente al tanto de este asunto. Sin
|> embargo no quieren que el asunto trascienda mas de lo necesario, para
|> que el proceso se pueda completar sin escandalos y sin demasiadas
|> protestas.
Oh, yes. We keep it secret. :-)) :-)) La conspiration du silence.
I'll keep silent about the rest of your 178 lines long article.
Artur Sixto
Artur Sixto
Fatima
Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
> Pinko, for Christ's sake, you don't know what you are talking about.
> Don't trivialize the issue.
>
> GURRIATO GURRATEZ
>
> (Ademas, nunca fuiste a mirar las guias, embusterazo, que te conozco. A
> ti lo que te gusta es andar metiendo baza en todas las conversaciones,
> sin saber de que coños va la cosa. Cosmopolita que es el compadrito...
> Fiktor Part Deux.)
Todo un "Pas de deux" con tutú de tules rojos
maillot de lentejuelas negras y a dar punta.
Bravo!!! Bruto!!! Bravisssimo!!
Observa la Aba con su impertinente, la impertinencia de algunos.
Saludos.
Lynn Diana Gazis
: Concha wrote:
: > ...
: > Otro grupo lo forman los se=F1ores Henrietta Thomas, Lynn Diana
: > Gazis-Max y Russ Albery, representantes de Dios en la tierra y que
Oops! I saw the bit about representing God on earth, and skipped past
this post as a flame, but, looking below, I see a possible serious
misunderstanding of the process.
: > parecen tener la posibilidad de decidir (posibilidad que yo no tengo y
: > que seguramente es el inicio de una nueva etapa feudal en internet).
It is not in fact true that the three of us have a power of decision that
the rest of you don't. Russ Allbery is, along with David Lawrence,
involved in moderating news.announce.newgroups, so he *does* get a say in
what RFDs and CFVs are posted. But that say is, almost always, to post
regardless of disagreement, and he has, by posting the RFD and indicating
that he will post any CFV, shown that he is *not* going to exercise that
power against this proposal.
Henrietta Thomas and I each have a vote, the same as anyone else. We've
both been on news.groups for a while, and have some knowledge about the
process, precedents with previous groups, and so on. In this regard, I
also want to distinguish between the rules which you *must* follow to get
a new group (e.g., an RFD which is not posted to news.announce.newgroups
is not a valid RFD, and will not result in a vote or group creation), and
the customs which help a new group along by making people less likely to
vote no (e.g. it is customary to answer questions about how much traffic
currently exists on a topic, and where the traffic for a new newsgroup is
likely to come from).
It is, indeed, to the advantage of the proponents to make enough changes
to this proposal that at least *some* no votes get changed to abstain
votes, since each no vote, from any source, must be countered by two yes
votes for the group to win. Possible changes include changes to the name
of the group, demonstrating traffic by setting up a mailing list first
(this one would take some time and therefore involve delaying the group),
or robomoderating the group against crossposts.
Lynn Gazis-Sax
Viper
Juanjo Sanmartín wrote:
> and the proponent (the presumed delinquent Viper) is the first,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I would like to ask Mr. Allbery or whoever, what I am supposed to do when
you're submitted to this stream of insults and personal vexations.
I DON'T LIKE SANMARTINES. I PREFER SANFERMINES.
PLEASE, STOP YOUR B.S.
Sanmartí, mamón, que te parta un rayo.
Gurriato Gurriatez
Lynn Diana Gazis wrote:
I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
interested in creating it
DO YOU WANT
1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar
2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first
My answer to all three questions is YES. I would like to see other
people's opinions.
The only thing I would not compromise is that I want the word "charnego"
appearing in the name, even if several other words are added. Please,
don't let these questions linger for too long. We need an answer and
proceed with the business
Sincerely
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
Ilergeta
Con...@tough.minded.es escribi=F3:
> There a lot of missinformation about the term "charnego".
>
> Please take a look at "Diccionario de argot espa=F1ol" (V=EDctor Le=F3n=
> 1980: 61):
>
> Charnego, ga m. y f. En Catalu=F1a, inmigrante de otra regi=F3n.
>
good, but please use a 'normal' dictionnary, not an argot dictionnary.I'v=
e
just posted the definition by the Spanish Language Academy official
language, and the term is derogative.
> As you can see there's actually no reference to pejorative
> involvements. A lot of examples of meaning change for different words
> have been mailed here.
>
> In the other hand. My great-grandfather use to call "xarnego" (the
> translation to catalan) to those people whose parents were french and
> catalan (please note that some 100 years ago only a few spanish
> inmigrants arrived to Catalonia). Years later, the same word became a
> usual peyorative term for the inmigrants from the rest of Spain.
>
so, your great-grandfather may have few spanish friends ;o)
> Around the 60's begun proud cultural movements specially in those
> neighborhoods were inmigrants were concentrated. Thus, these peoples
> then felt they were no more "spaniards" and neither "catalan". The
> problem was worsening as the second and third generation grew.
>
> A Valencian writer, former member of the Communist Party, called
> Francisco Candel, through his writing "Donde la ciudad cambia de
> nombre", presented a new vission of that new boundary: a new culture
> as the result of a mixture - mestizo. Not a race miscegenation but a
> culture one. Just as ever. One culture plus other =3D a new one. The
> charnego.
>
> Thus, the word charnego changed its connotations, the derogatory one,
> to define a group of people.
>
> Indeed, this mestizo culture, receives influences from both "spanish"
> and "catalan" cultures" that can be found in meals (gastronomy), taste
> (fashion), habits, relations, etc, and language.
>
> For there is a new languaje! For instance, a great catalan singer and
> composer, Joan Manuel Serrat (a charnego) in his LP ",...para piel de
> manzana"(Ariola 1975) sings a song called "Caminito de la obra". The
> following words are used:
>
> Robinada =3D oxidada =3D oxidized
> plegar =3D finalizar la jornada =3D to end work
> arrepenchao =3D apoyado =3D to rest
> escampa =3D extiende =3D to spread
> tocho =3D ladrillo =3D brick
> enchegar=E1 =3D pondr=E1 en marcha =3D to start
> cal=E9 =3D pasta, dinero =3D money
> vale =3D de acuerdo =3D ok
> empaso =3D trag=F3 =3D to swallow
> chala =3D alcantarilla =3D sewer
> paleta =3D alba=F1il =3D bricklayer
> trabanqueta =3D zancadilla =3D trip
> barrecha =3D bebida hecha de dos licores =3D a drink
> porlan =3D cemento =3D cement
>
ha ha ha!Do you want to write a "charnego"-spanish dictionnary?
theese all are words in 'construction workers argot'.
Is "charnego" an idiom? (ha ha ha!)
> There a lot of other examples of charnego words of which i can give
> information if required.
>
> The soc.culture.charnego is to be engaged with a multicultural,
> multilingual, multiethnic group of people. All of them between the old
> "spanish" culture and the old "catalan" culture. As I am arguing the
> assumption of a new awareness is the best approach to the real thing.
> The people in the boundaries always create their own cultural
> increasing awareness. The internalisation of the charnego reality
> depends only on the charnego people.
>
> Please move beyond the mainstream of significance and take an overview
> to the raise of the culture we share.
>
> Thank you for your attention.
>
> Mil=FA the Goss
> mequi mequi!!!
--
Jaume
_| | \
| | __ \ / __ \ __ \ _|_\ __ \
| | /____| | / | /____| | / |
| | \ | \ | \ | \__ |
_|___\____/ _| ___/ | ____/ _\ _____\
|
____/
c/e dropo...@rocketmail.com
ICQ #4155118
(please, remove the "NoSpam" word from my e-mail address in order to repl=
y
me)
Gurriato Gurriatez
Johny Maracas.
> And what are you going to do with the Asturian immigrants, the
>
> Galician immigrants and all the other non speaking Spanish immigrants?
>
> Johny
>
Maracas, voto al chapiro verde, si me enseñas un asturiano en Barna que
no hable castellano te invito a un viaje a Disneyworld con todos los
gastos pagados.
Gallego a lo mejor hay alguno aqui y aculla pero la verdad es que yo
jamas me cruce en su camino. Y si hay gallegos que quieren hablar en
gallego, pues por mi encantado. De eso se trata precisamente, de que la
gente hable lo que le salga de los nisperos, sin cuotas ni inmersiones.
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez
D...@netcom.com> <34708EDB...@unmc.edu>
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Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
> straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
> interested in creating it
>
> DO YOU WANT
>
> 1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar
>
> 2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
>
> 3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first
>
I agree with the robomoderation proposal. I believe Mr. Allbery and Ms.
Gazis have already indicated that this change would be enough for them
to drop their opposition to the group (if this is not the case, please
correct me). I would rather not change the name of the group to
soc.culture.catalan.charnego, for the reasons I explained earlier in the
thread.
I would like to hear from all those who previously intended to vote
against the group (other than those who oppose it for political reasons,
of course) whether or not robomoderation would be enough to rethink
their vote. Thanks.
>
> GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
--
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez Office # (607) 255 5034
Electrical Engineering Home # (607) 758 8962
112 Phillips Hall Fax # (607) 255 4565
Cornell University mailto:enr...@ee.cornell.edu
Ithaca, NY 14853 http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~enrique
Jaume M. Canaves
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Jaume M. Canaves wrote:
> extend or adapt the robomoderacion policy that is being proposed for
> soc.culture.catala to guarantee that there will bo censorship?. I mean,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sh*t!!! This keyboard is acting funny again. Where it says "will bo", it
should say "will bE No".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jaume M. Canaves i Vives ICQ#4740306 "Money can't buy love,
UCSD - Biology (0366) /_\ Y but it *can* rent
9500 Gilman Dr. 7 // \\ ( ) a very close
La Jolla, California 92093 \\_// \\_// imitation"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perique des Palottes
Concha ha escrit a soc.culture.catalan:
> Leyendo con cierta atención estos escritos en inglés llego a las
> siguientes conclusiones:
Com que afirmes que has llegit amb atenció, assumiré que duus
bona voluntat.
> Otro grupo lo forman los señores Henrietta Thomas, Lynn Diana
> Gazis-Max y Russ Albery, representantes de Dios en la tierra y que
> parecen tener la posibilidad de decidir (posibilidad que yo no tengo y
> que seguramente es el inicio de una nueva etapa feudal en internet).
Aquesta gent argumenta, cosa que tu no sembles fer. A tu et pot semblar
que aquesta gent decideix, però només t'ho sembla, no és pas veritat:
només diuen la seva opinió, més o menys argumentada. La decisió, si
és el cas, la donaran els vots de la gent, si hi arribeu.
> Estos últimos ponen de manifiesto inconvenientes relacionados con el
> volumen de participantes, la utilización política, pero sobre todo
> crean un inconveniente que consiste en su total desconocimiento del
> catalán, del castellano y de la problemática tratada.
Els arguments d'aquesta gent a mi no em sembla pas que tinguin res
a veure amb el seu coneixement o no del català o del castellà. També
tens problemes de comprensió lectora en anglès?
I a tu no et sembla que tu tinguis un problema consistent en el teu
total (o molt gran segons els teus comentaris) desconeixement de les
pràctiques per a la creació de grups de "news", i de les raons que hi
havien i encara hi han per haver creat i mantenir aquestes pràctiques?
> Sugiero una votación sobre la creación o no del grupo
> soc.culture.charnego entre los participantes de soc.culture.spain y
> soc.culture.catalan (o de cualquier otro grupo o colectivo o...que se
> sienta implicado)
Qualsevol persona amb accés a nntp pot sentir-s'hi implicat, i això és
el que fan aquestes persones, força constructivament i amb molta
paciència
em sembla a mi, considerant la coherència dels vostres arguments.
> para poder así pasar olimpicamente de la CENSURA del
> poder en la red.
Això, per a "poder passar del que voti la majoria perquè vosaltres
teniu la raó absoluta per manament diví". Ningú et/us priva de dir
el que volgueu (això seria censura), només se us demana (de fet se
us imposa, com també a tots nosaltres) que seguiu unes regles que
faciliten la vida a tothom o a la gran majoria (encara que a tu
personalment i a quatre gats no us ho sembli).
> Una vez establecido el resultado, por lo menos no
> habrá que dar explicaciones.
Això, "després d'executar tots els dissidents tothom estarà d'acord
amb vosaltres" (em recorda "Tintín al País dels Soviets", no sé perquè).
Si us plau, si entreu en el joc dels RFDs, seguiu les regles del joc,
no les intenteu canviar quan us sembla bé. I si us plau, discutiu
el que pertoca: les raons per a crear o no el grup proposat, o per
fer-lo així o aixà. No si tots els catalanoparlants tenen cua i banyes.
Gràcies per la vostra atenció, si és el cas.
--
...Si hoc tibi placet mitte nobis XX dollaria...
Pakete
Enrique Diaz-Alvarez <enr...@ee.cornell.edu> wrote:
I agree too with the proposal of robomoderating the charnego group
mi...@tough.minded.es
> O sea, que como no te gusta como estan marchando las cosas, al
> carajo con las normas y procedimientos. Nos montamos una votacion en
> nuestro cortijo particular y asi solo votaran los que a ti te de la
> gana. =BFNo?
Te pierde el deseo. Yo estoy contra un sistema que no he podido
escoger: por antidemocrático y por establecer reglas cercanas al
colonialismo cultural.
Y si eso supone impedir que esas personas que discrepan
> (y que ademas, segun tu, tienen capacidad de decidir) puedan votar,
> pues mucho mejor. Todos esos votos negativos que te ahorras. =
>
No me ahorro nada. Una votación implica a todos los interesados ¿si no
fuera así para qué hacerla? Tu ves demasiados fantasmas, pero lo que
es seguro es que vives del momio y todo te parece bien ¿no?
> Alguno pensara que, en cierta forma, eso no deja de ser un tipo de
> censura. Y no le faltara, creo yo, algo de razon...
La censura consiste en reivindicar la igualdad? Extraña cosa. Yo
quiero tratar los temas en pie de igualdad y no "teniendo que
convencer" a quien no conozco ni sé porqué está ahí.
En definitiva, estoy contra el sistema cerrado. ¿Tu estás a favor?
Un saludo
Milú the Goss
Milú the Goss
rObLe
Fatima <cad...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>Bravo!!! Bruto!!! Bravisssimo!!
>Saludos.
ya eMpieZAn laS muTuaS chUPadaS de cULo
r
O
b
L
e
dUrO y coNTundeNTe
Artur Sixto
Agusti Roig <agu...@txati.upc.es> writes:
|> > a little better perspective. For the moment, let me just say that
|> > the Almanac lists the following ethnic groups for Spain:
|> >
|> > 72.8% Spanish (Castilian, Valencian, Andalusian, Asturian)
|> > 16.4% Catalan
|> > 8.2% Galician
|> > 2.3% Basque
|>
|> I seriously doubt that "ethnic" is the right word. Maybe it
|> would be more neutral to talk about "citizens of" Catalonia,
|> citizens of Basque country..., and citizens of the rest of
|> the Spain.
I agree with him for a different reason. There's no point for
me in `neutralizing' and watering down realities. There are
different such ethnic realities in Spain but they overlap their
respective political boundaries and that's the problem (as usual).
The main ethnic groups are those Henrietta listed, but there
are others. Regarding those listed in her Almanac, some precsions
need be made. The percentages given correspond more or less to the
populations inhabiting the territories that are mentioned. But...
catalan ethnicity encompasses most of the Valencian region, a small
part of Aragon and the Balearic Islands. Some of the people in
Catalonia that are counted as ethnic catalans would reject it and
would regard themselves as ethnically spanish or something else.
|> > And the languages are: Spanish, Catalan, Galician, and Basque
and bable (Asturias), and leonese (Leon), and occitan (Val d'Aran),
and aragonese (Aragon), and portuguese (in some border areas). Most
of them will likely die out during the next century though.
Portuguese and Galician are considered by many experts to be the same
language (galaico-portuguese).
The basic thing is, the castilian/spanish ethnic group became central
and dominant since the middle ages. Since its origins in the XVIIc.
the spanish state was entirely in castilian/spanish hands. The attempt
was to follow the french example and transform Spain in an homogeneous
castilian speaking country. The attempt was largely unsuccessful until
this century and the different realms remained very much independent
up until the early XVIIIc. The first monarch to officialy hold the
Crown of Spain was Isabel II, Queen of Spain, in the early XIXc.
Artur Sixto
Viper
FMM wrote:
> Finally, as a non-Spaniard who speaks Spanish and had opportunities
> to visit a few places in Cataluyna as well as other sites of Spain,
> my impression of the despectiveness, or lack thereof, of 'charnego'
> (and 'maketo' for that matter) is that it has similarities with the
> current usage of some derogatory terms in the US, such as 'nigger'
> or 'spic': It may be quite acceptable for one of the target group
> to use the term, especially within the group, but rather offensive
> if used by another group.
Mr. Monasterio:
I AM A CHARNEGO. YOU ARE NOT. I perfectly know what IS an insult for me.
You do NOT. I realize when I feel OFFENDED by a term. You do NOT.
I was born in Barcelona. I have lived for almost 23 years in a charnego
quarter in Hospitalet de Llobregat, the second largest city in Catalonia.
Now I live in Barcelona, in a mixed neighborhood. I went to a high school
placed in a almost 100% charnego quarter. A great part of my friends are
charnegos. All my relatives are. I know perfectly what they (we) are, how
we feel, what we want, what we're worried about, what we have got, what we
haven't, what we expect and what we deserve. YOU DO NOT.
I read books of Juan Marsé and Agustín Goytisolo. I buy the new releases
of "El último de la fila" and "Loquillo". I listen to Justo Molinero's
radio station sometimes (very few times, that's the true). You, probably,
DO NOT. I know what the charnego culture is. You DO NOT.
Have I ever gone to the argentinean group to illustrate porteños or
rioplatenses about their matters and their way of living?.
Please, stop saying nonsenses about charnegos. I guess you have "a crush"
on me due to the former flame between SCS and SCA. Therefore, please again,
forget old rages and leave soc.culture.charnego alone.
> Until then, I would rather vote NO to soc.culture.charnego.
Haz lo que te salga de las pelotas.
Viper
Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Hell, talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some people
> apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing another may be
> wise.
Maybe. But inaccurate towards charnegos. If charnegos like the term, I
don't see the reason why we have to change the name of OUR group (although
I'm aware that "property" in Usenet is a pretty strange concept). In any
case, it's up to them. If 'polakos' or whoever feel disturbed or insulted
by the name, it's not OUR worry.
Cheers,
Jose Manuel Dieguez Perez
mi...@tough.minded.es wrote:
> Te pierde el deseo. Yo estoy contra un sistema que no he podido
> escoger: por antidemocr=E1tico y por establecer reglas cercanas al
> colonialismo cultural.
Estaras contra el sistema, pero, eso si, intentando aprovecharte
de todas las ventajas que pertenecer al sistema tiene. Nada te
impide montarte tu grupito de intercambio de dolientes mensajes
con la gente que quieras, pero tu quieres un grupo como Dios
manda, con la difusion que Usenet, ... permiten. Pero eso si,
montandotelo como a ti te de la gana. Pues eso, me temo, no es
muy coherente.
> No me ahorro nada. Una votaci=F3n implica a todos los interesados =BFsi=
no
> fuera as=ED para qu=E9 hacerla? Tu ves demasiados fantasmas, pero lo qu=
e
> es seguro es que vives del momio y todo te parece bien =BFno?
Uno: una votacion implica a los interesados. Pero tu no eres
quien para decidir quien esta interesado y quien no (ergo, quien
puede votar y quien no, quien puede participar en la discusion
y quien no, ...).
Dos: Yo no vivo del momio. Vivo de mi trabajo. Y no me parece
bien todo. Pero si quiero pertenecer a una organizacion para
aprovechar las ventajas que me ofrece, pues me adapto a sus
reglas. Sencillo, no?
> La censura consiste en reivindicar la igualdad? Extra=F1a cosa. Yo
> quiero tratar los temas en pie de igualdad y no "teniendo que
> convencer" a quien no conozco ni s=E9 porqu=E9 est=E1 ah=ED.
No la censura consiste en pretender designar quien puede votar y
quien no.
> En definitiva, estoy contra el sistema cerrado. =BFTu est=E1s a favor?
Yo no estoy a favor del sistema cerrado. Yo estoy a favor de cumplir
las normas establecidas por quienes hacen posible que esto funcione.
Tu no?
*********************************************************************
JOSE MANUEL DIEGUEZ PEREZ Non lle ponhades chatas a obra
Facultat d'Informatica de Barcelona mentras non estea rematada,
Laboratori de Calcul-Area de Gestio traballade nela.
Campus Nord UPC, Modul B6 (Castelao)
Jordi Girona Salgado, 1-3
E-08034 Barcelona
Phone: +34 3 4016946 email: jo...@fib.upc.es
Fax: +34 3 4017040 WWW: http://www-fib.upc.es/
Grupo de novas en Galego: http://www.simil.es/scg/scg.htm
Juanjo Sanmartín
Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> escribió en artículo
<3470B305...@unmc.edu>...
> Johny Maracas.
> Maracas, voto al chapiro verde, si me enseñas un asturiano en Barna que
> no hable castellano te invito a un viaje a Disneyworld con todos los
> gastos pagados.
>
> Gallego a lo mejor hay alguno aqui y aculla pero la verdad es que yo
> jamas me cruce en su camino. Y si hay gallegos que quieren hablar en
> gallego, pues por mi encantado. De eso se trata precisamente, de que la
> gente hable lo que le salga de los nisperos, sin cuotas ni inmersiones.
>
> GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
>
¡Ah claro!, las cuotas, inmersiones, y demás obligaciones constitucionales
o no (¿no habíamos quedado que por decreto no se impone una lengua?) solo
valen para las lenguas imperiales ¿me equivoco?
Juanjo Sanmartín
Gurriato Gurriatez
Jaume M. Canaves wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > > > Sanmartí, mamón, que te parta un rayo.
> > >
> > > "Sanmartin, cocksucker, get hit by a bolt"
> > >
> > > which indeed is a very mature attitude, isn't it, Mr. Proponent?
> >
> > I am quite mature, and still get quite angry at people calling me in
>
> > earnest a "presumed delinquent".
>
> Hell, a think that calling 'presumed delinquent' is not as bad as
> calling
> other people 'terrorists', a word that you and Viper have used quite
> frequently in this discusion
Please, provide a SINGLE example of my calling anyone terrorist in this
discussion. You guys have been clipping my complete production in the
Net. Please, bring a SINGLE example of my calling anyone a terrorist in
this discussion.
Jaume, these manipulations are very sleezy. In the long run they'll work
against you.
> ...
>
> > I have my own set of epithets for such people.
>
> We all know that, Dr. Soria.
>
> > Incidentally, "mamon" means "sucker", not "cocksuker", and "que te
>
> > parta un rayo' es the Spanish equivalent to "go fly a kite"
>
> Perhaps you are too sensitive for my literal translations, Dr.
> Soria...
> I though that you always despissed politically correctness, even in
> translations.
>
They are not literal translations. They are deliberately false
translations.Mamon is the word for sucker, not for cocksuker.
> > Please, Jaume, you know how to translate better than that. Stop
> difaming
> > Mr. Viper. These sleezy OJ's lawyer tricks will get you nowhere.
>
> There's no need to defamate Mr. Viper for the simple reason that his
> own messages portrait him perfectly. Nobody has resorted to insults
> and personal attacks in this discusion as Mr. Viper.
Your "translations" portrait him like that.I have seen also the
"translations" by Artur of a funny nickname he gave himself "Estenanita
Cueceleches"
> If you feel
> embarrassed by his messages and don't want him to keep on doing that,
> go and tell him. If he behaves like a childish moron,
Childish moron is my concept of a serious insult, not a compliment.What
a nice thing to say!!! Viper, we told you how to behave and you didn't,
you are a childish moron....
> pointing the
> inadequeacy of such behavior and telling him to stop it is not
> defamating him.
>
> Regarding 'tricks', what is going to take you nowhere is pointing
> fingers to everybody in this discusion, quoting parts of messages
> out of context in soc.culture.spain to inflame people, and calling
> anybody that doesn't follow your ideas or is critical with your
> proposal a
> 'radical nationalist'.
This is exactly what you have been doing for the last two weeks. You,
Artur and Maracas have been clipping anything you tought was
innapropiate from people's posts and bringing the clip to this forum.If
you want a myriad of examples I can provide them.
Sincerely
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
Jaume M. Canaves
On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Viper wrote:
> Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> >
> > Hell, talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some people
> > apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing another may be
> > wise.
>
> Maybe. But inaccurate towards charnegos. If charnegos like the term, I
> don't see the reason why we have to change the name of OUR group (although
> I'm aware that "property" in Usenet is a pretty strange concept). In any
> case, it's up to them. If 'polakos' or whoever feel disturbed or insulted
> by the name, it's not OUR worry.
Viper, there are 'charnegos' that oppose the name. If by saying "OUR"
group you mean the group for the 'charnegos' that don't feel ofended
by that word, so be it. But that is not a soc.culture group for all
the 'charnegos'. You want a soc.culture group? so you better cut a deal
with the 'charnegos' that oppose the creation of the group, otherwise
you are describing a talk.politics group.
Not only 'polakos' (thanks for the insult...) oppose the use of the word
'charnego', and nobody is falling for your accusations that everybody
that opposes the creation of *your* group is a 'polako' or a
'nationalist'.
Henrietta Thomas
In news.groups on 17 Nov 1997 00:56:42 GMT, as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Artur Sixto)
wrote:
>E. Soria suffers from an infantile psychological condition know as
>encopresis: crapping around on purpose, in despite.
>
>
>[I won't answer the rest of his 216 lines. Haven't got enough bleach.]
This is not necessary. If you don't like what Dr. Sorio says, just put
him in your killfile. We are here to discuss a proposal, not sling mud.
I am surprised because, in another thread, you made a good analysis
of the situation that led me to think you were ready for a compromise.
But I guess I was wrong. :-(
Followups to news.groups, soc.culture.spain.
Henrietta
===
Name of the game, ladies and gentlemen, is to communicate with
each other, NOT fighting. ---Erol Keskin, 10-21-97
Henrietta Thomas
[First, a thank you to Ms. Gazis-Sax for explaining that we are not Gods
on earth]
In news.groups on Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:37:16 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
[snip]....
>I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
>straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
>interested in creating it
>
>DO YOU WANT
>
>1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar
>
>2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
>
>3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first
>
>My answer to all three questions is YES. I would like to see other
>people's opinions.
>
>The only thing I would not compromise is that I want the word "charnego"
>appearing in the name, even if several other words are added. Please,
>don't let these questions linger for too long. We need an answer and
>proceed with the business
My answer is more or less YES, too. What you really need is to:
a) convince Viper to take this political proposal off the table,
b) get together on a private mailing list with supporters of the
idea and "hash things out" until you come with a better proposal,
c) set up a web site on charnego culture and see what kind of
reaction you get (the web site could include an invitation for people
to join a discussion list on charnego culture).
If you get a good reaction to the web site, you should get more
support for the newsgroup idea. But if not, you may want to rethink
the whole thing. There is no point in making a proposal which is
almost sure to fail.
Artur Sixto made a list of possible newsgroup names which have
already been suggested. He also says he counted at least 10
supporters posting in news.groups now. Even Jaume Canaves
is finally coming out with some constructive suggestions. This
is the place to start. Give yourself at least two or three months,
and see what you can do. Good proposals usually have a better
chance to pass.
Henrietta
---
Confused by the noise in news.groups? For an in-depth explanation,
see the Bernstein/McQuitty news.groups FAQ:
http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html
Johny Maracas
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:21:37 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
>
>I don't think Texan travel guides, checked out by an Argentinian, should
>be an important criterium to name the group.
>
And what about Extremaduran immigrants living in Nebraska but
pontificating about "charnegos" in Catalonia, Mr.Soria?
Johny
_ _ _
"And be these juggling fiends no more believ'd"
W.Shakespeare,«Macbeth» V,5,48
Email to: johny_...@hotmail.com
Gurriato Gurriatez
Johny Maracas wrote:
> >
> >I don't think Texan travel guides, checked out by an Argentinian,
> should
> >be an important criterium to name the group.
> >
>
> And what about Extremaduran immigrants living in Nebraska but
> pontificating about "charnegos" in Catalonia, Mr.Soria?
>
> Johny
>
I lived in Catalonia for an extended period of time, and I speak the
Catalan language. My daughter was born there. I have family in the area
and I visit there often. I was a Charnego for a number of years, until I
decided to emigrate to USA. As you can see from my articles I am pretty
well informed about the current situation there. Ask Artur about it if
you don't believe me.I don't get my information from Texan travel
guides.
You are a Valencian yourself, and you never lived in Catalonia.
Sincerely
GURRIATO
GURRIATEZ
Gurriato Gurriatez
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Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> [First, a thank you to Ms. Gazis-Sax for explaining that we are not
> Gods
> on earth]
>
> In news.groups on Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:37:16 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
> <eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
>
> [snip]....
>
> >I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
> >straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
> >interested in creating it
> >
> >DO YOU WANT
> >
> >1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something
> similar
> >
> >2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
> >
> >3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first
> >
> >My answer to all three questions is YES. I would like to see other
> >people's opinions.
> >
> >The only thing I would not compromise is that I want the word
> "charnego"
> >appearing in the name, even if several other words are added. Please,
>
> >don't let these questions linger for too long. We need an answer and
> >proceed with the business
>
> My answer is more or less YES, too. What you really need is to:
>
> a) convince Viper to take this political proposal off the table,
>
I think that most of us would agree to name the group
soc.culture.catalonia.charnego.The first name would desisgnate the
place, Catalonia, the second the culture, the Charnego If charnego is
not allowed to appear in the tittle, we would not be interested in
pursuing this project any longer. We would agree with the recomendation
of robomoderation.ButI don't think there is any interest by the other
proponents in delaying the proposal. Moderators said that they would be
satisfied if we would agree with one of the suggestions. We agreed with
two: changing the name of the group and robomoderating it.
We knew from the very beginning that the proposal was going to confront
the solid oposition of the Catalonians. We kew that they would be able
to present one or two "charnegos" making testimonials on how offended
they are by the proposal. We had lenghthy conversations about it in
E-Mail and we counted on it. We also knew who were going to be te
vociferous aponents, one by one. The whole thing was so predictable! The
voting direction of this particular community I think was already set
long in advance with a resolute aim to demolish the whole thing. You
have to give us some credit about knowledge of political and social
realities of the Spanish complex arena that theAmericans would have
difficulties to comprehend. We think that we still have a good winning
chance when the votacion will take place. Artur and Jaume Canaves would
not be compulsively trying to maim the project at an early stage before
votation if they were so sure about the results.Take into account that I
and some of the other proponents have been participating in
soc.culture.spain and soc.culture.catalonia for almost three years, we
konw almost every participant in the discussions and we can make very
accurate predictions about people reactions and behaviour.
Delaying the project will get us no extra votes. The only thing that
will be accomplished is having three or four people filibustering the
wole thing for two months with all kind of negative comments and
picking up flame wars to give the impression that this project is some
sort of political quarrel rather than a cultural undertaking. We are not
going to put up with two months of dirty tricks, clippings of old
postings, insults etc.There is even a Catalonian nationalist soliciting
the argentinians dayly to gang against me and making innuendos of the
project being some kind of racist scheme against the Moors, the
Portuguese, the Argentinian and the Catalonians and should be punished
by a court of law. He is writting the Spanish laws against racist
misconduct and publish them in these forums as if they were applicable
to me. I am becoming sick and tired of all this nonsense and I want to
get it over with.
Some of the moderators adviced to ignore these type of postings or
putting them in a killfile. I dont know about the rest of the
proponents, but I find very difficult to ignore this sort of things
All that you have seen in the screen in tha last two weeks during the
discussions was not directed to the Spanish public, but to the Net
authorities to see if the whole project could be cancelled. The Catalan
establishment and the Catalonian government are firmly commited to the
cultural homogeneization of the country and few Catalans would disagree
with this nationalistic project. The last thing they want is an
independent Charnego voice, whether is to talk about cultural matters or
about the weather..
Creating a group for discussion of "Charnego stuff" and Charnego
cultural and linguistic issues is always going to have the strong
political opposition of the Catalonians, no matter what. If we answer
their objections the whole thing becames a self fulfilled prophecy (
"see, the conversations are political") At this stage we think that the
back and forth arguments with the compulsive postings of Jaume Canaves
is a totally boring, repetitive, unproductive activity and I would like
to proceed with the project as planned , without delays. If the project
fails because people vote agains it, so be it.
In the last few days nothing new has been added to the discussions. The
same old boring stuff. That Mr Sanmartin finds the word charnego
insulting, answered by a list of oppinions to the contrary by writters
and Charnego intellectuals, that the intention of the group is political
and not cultural, that I am Net hooligan and so is Mr. Viper, etcetera.
I doubt that any thing more original is going to pop up in the next few
days. I would request that if the legalities of the proposal have been
fulfilled, to go ahead with it.
> b) get together on a private mailing list with supporters of the
> idea and "hash things out" until you come with a better proposal,
At this stage I would like to proceed with a soc.culture.catalonian
charnego, with robomoderation, without delaying the proposal.
I hope that Mr Viper agrees with that.
>
>
> c) set up a web site on charnego culture and see what kind of
> reaction you get (the web site could include an invitation for people
> to join a discussion list on charnego culture).
We have already a pretty good idea of the kind of support we are going
to get from private mailings in E-mail
>
>
> If you get a good reaction to the web site, you should get more
> support for the newsgroup idea. But if not, you may want to rethink
> the whole thing. There is no point in making a proposal which is
> almost sure to fail.
>
> Artur Sixto made a list of possible newsgroup names which have
> already been suggested. He also says he counted at least 10
> supporters posting in news.groups now. Even Jaume Canaves
> is finally coming out with some constructive suggestions. This
> is the place to start. Give yourself at least two or three months,
> and see what you can do. Good proposals usually have a better
> chance to pass.
>
> Henrietta
>
The last thing we would do is following Artur Sixto's advices for the
"betterment" of the group.
We don't want to give ourselves two or three months . We would like to
proceed. This is my undestanding of the situation from E-mail
conversations. If any of the proponens desagree, let us know about it.
Sincerely
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
--------------CC9F81439E225563F15952F3
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<HTML>
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>[First, a thank you to Ms. Gazis-Sax for explaining
that we are not Gods
<BR>on earth]
<P>In news.groups on Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:37:16 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<BR><eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
<P>[snip]....
<P>>I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
<BR>>straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
<BR>>interested in creating it
<BR>>
<BR>>DO YOU WANT
<BR>>
<BR>>1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar
<BR>>
<BR>>2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
<BR>>
<BR>>3) Delay of the date to have time to obtan a mailing list first
<BR>>
<BR>>My answer to all three questions is YES. I would like to see other
<BR>>people's opinions.
<BR>>
<BR>>The only thing I would not compromise is that I want the word "charnego"
<BR>>appearing in the name, even if several other words are added. Please,
<BR>>don't let these questions linger for too long. We need an answer and
<BR>>proceed with the business
<P>My answer is more or less YES, too. What you really need is to:
<P>a) convince Viper to take this political proposal off the table,
<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that most of us would agree to name the group soc.culture.catalonia.charnego.The
first name would desisgnate the place, Catalonia, the second the culture,
the Charnego If charnego is not allowed to appear in the tittle, we would
not be interested in pursuing this project any longer. We would agree with
the recomendation of robomoderation.ButI don't think there is any interest
by the other proponents in delaying the proposal. Moderators said that
they would be satisfied if we would agree with one of the suggestions.
We agreed with two: changing the name of the group and robomoderating it.
<P>We knew from the very beginning that the proposal was going to confront
the solid oposition of the Catalonians. We kew that they would be
able to present one or two "charnegos" making testimonials on how offended
they are by the proposal. We had lenghthy conversations about it in E-Mail
and we counted on it. We also knew who were going to be te vociferous aponents,
one by one. The whole thing was so predictable! The voting direction of
this particular community I think was already set long in advance with
a resolute aim to demolish the whole thing. You have to give us some credit
about knowledge of political and social realities of the Spanish complex
arena that theAmericans would have difficulties to comprehend. We think
that we still have a good winning chance when the votacion will take
place. Artur and Jaume Canaves would not be compulsively trying to maim
the project at an early stage before votation if they were so sure about
the results.Take into account that I and some of the other proponents have
been participating in soc.culture.spain and soc.culture.catalonia for almost
three years, we konw almost every participant in the discussions and we
can make very accurate predictions about people reactions and behaviour.
<P>Delaying the project will get us no extra votes. The only thing that
will be accomplished is having three or four people filibustering the wole
thing for two months with all kind of negative comments and picking
up flame wars to give the impression that this project is some sort of
political quarrel rather than a cultural undertaking. We are not going
to put up with two months of dirty tricks, clippings of old postings, insults
etc.There is even a Catalonian nationalist soliciting the argentinians
dayly to gang against me and making innuendos of the project being some
kind of racist scheme against the Moors, the Portuguese, the Argentinian
and the Catalonians and should be punished by a court of law. He is writting
the Spanish laws against racist misconduct and publish them in these forums
as if they were applicable to me. I am becoming sick and tired of all this
nonsense and I want to get it over with.
<BR>Some of the moderators adviced to ignore these type of postings or
putting them in a killfile. I dont know about the rest of the proponents,
but I find very difficult to ignore this sort of things
<P>All that you have seen in the screen in tha last two weeks during the
discussions was not directed to the Spanish public, but to the Net authorities
to see if the whole project could be cancelled. The Catalan establishment
and the Catalonian government are firmly commited to the cultural homogeneization
of the country and few Catalans would disagree with this nationalistic
project. The last thing they want is an independent Charnego voice, whether
is to talk about cultural matters or about the weather..
<P>Creating a group for discussion of "Charnego stuff" and Charnego cultural
and linguistic issues is always going to have the strong political opposition
of the Catalonians, no matter what. If we answer their objections the whole
thing becames a self fulfilled prophecy ( "see, the conversations are political")
At this stage we think that the back and forth arguments with the compulsive
postings of Jaume Canaves is a totally boring, repetitive, unproductive
activity and I would like to proceed with the project as planned , without
delays. If the project fails because people vote agains it, so be it.
<P>In the last few days nothing new has been added to the discussions.
The same old boring stuff. That Mr Sanmartin finds the word charnego insulting,
answered by a list of oppinions to the contrary by writters and Charnego
intellectuals, that the intention of the group is political and not cultural,
that I am Net hooligan and so is Mr. Viper, etcetera. I doubt that any
thing more original is going to pop up in the next few days. I would request
that if the legalities of the proposal have been fulfilled, to go ahead
with it.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<P>b) get together on a private mailing list with supporters of the
<BR>idea and "hash things out" until you come with a better proposal,</BLOCKQUOTE>
At this stage I would like to proceed with a soc.culture.catalonian charnego,
with robomoderation, without delaying the proposal.
<P>I hope that Mr Viper agrees with that.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<P>c) set up a web site on charnego culture and see what kind of
<BR>reaction you get (the web site could include an invitation for people
<BR>to join a discussion list on charnego culture).</BLOCKQUOTE>
We have already a pretty good idea of the kind of support we are going
to get from private mailings in E-mail
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<P>If you get a good reaction to the web site, you should get more
<BR>support for the newsgroup idea. But if not, you may want to rethink
<BR>the whole thing. There is no point in making a proposal which is
<BR>almost sure to fail.
<P>Artur Sixto made a list of possible newsgroup names which have
<BR>already been suggested. He also says he counted at least 10
<BR>supporters posting in news.groups now. Even Jaume Canaves
<BR>is finally coming out with some constructive suggestions. This
<BR>is the place to start. Give yourself at least two or three months,
<BR>and see what you can do. Good proposals usually have a better
<BR>chance to pass.
<P>Henrietta
<BR><A HREF="http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
The last thing we would do is following Artur Sixto's advices for the "betterment"
of the group.
<P>We don't want to give ourselves two or three months . We would like
to proceed. This is my undestanding of the situation from E-mail conversations.
If any of the proponens desagree, let us know about it.
<P>
<BR>
Sincerely
<P>
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
<BR> </HTML>
--------------CC9F81439E225563F15952F3--
Perique des Palottes
Con...@tough.minded.es wrote:
> For there is a new languaje [...sic]!
> The following words are used:
> [...]
> plegar = finalizar la jornada = to end work
> arrepenchao = apoyado = to rest
> tocho = ladrillo = brick
> enchegará = pondrá en marcha = to start
> [...]
What we can only see is a bunch of Catalan words that are usually
mixed in Spanish speech in Catalonia, be it due to illiteracy, be
it to achieve argotical or comical effects.
> Milú the Goss
> mequi mequi!!!
So Milu the Goss and Concha are the same too...
We can see hooow maaany people are favorable to your postulates.
mi...@tough.minded.es
> Yo no estoy a favor del sistema cerrado. Yo estoy a favor de cumplir
> las normas establecidas por quienes hacen posible que esto funcione.
> Tu no?
Pues no. Yo estoy a favor de poder discutir las normas que me afectan:
eso es la base de la democracia, la participación. Ya veo que tu punto
de vista no es ese. Lo lamento. La imposición de normas de obligado
cumplimiento me trae recuerdos amargos del pasado. También se
justificaban con tangos como el que cuentas "la paz", "el orden"...
Los sistemas de poder cerrados en los que estás tan a gusto me dan
grima. Si a tí te gustan es que vives del momio (sostengo).
Heil
Milú
Henrietta Thomas
In news.groups on Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:02:12 GMT, alva...@hotmail.com (Pakete)
wrote:
>Henrietta, Russ and Lynn Diana:
>
>In another thread I have affirmed that I agree with the robomoderation
>of the charnego group, but I'd want make before a couple of questions
>whose answer I've not been able to find in FAQ's.
>
>1) Should the robomoderation be necessary for the creation of
>soc.culture.catalan.charnego?
No. Not unless you expect a lot of crossposts, spam, or flamewars,
in which case you should propose a moderated group and explain
that it will be limited to robomoderation only.
This requires that you set up some moderation software, and appoint
someone to be in charge of the robomoderator. This person (or
persons) should be identified in the RFD, and you'd have to spell
out your moderation policies in the charter. It is kind of a complicated
thing, so I don't recommend it unless you are certain it is really
necessary. And judging by the types of insults we are seeing here
in news.groups, it might be worth it to have a "no crosspost" rule.
>2) Would be the robomoderation automatic starting from the creation of
>the group or would be subjected to a votation?
Moderation is never automatic. It would have to be voted on after it is
proposed by RFD.
I believe soc.culture.galiza is a moderated group. That's what they
asked for in their RFD, and when the proposal passed, that's what
they got. You might want to take a look at soc.culture.galiza to see
how they are making out.
soc.culture.basque is also a moderated group, so you might want
to take a look there, too.
Btw, let me explain that robomoderation would not affect my vote.
I have intended from the beginning to abstain, because I do not
intend to read or post to the group, and so far, I see no reason to
vote no.
Henrietta Thomas
[posted and mailed]
In news.groups on Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:18:27 +0100, Viper
<mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es> wrote:
>Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>
>> Now there are already four newsgroups covering the country of
>> Spain:
>>
>> soc.culture.spain
>> soc.culture.basque
>> soc.culture.catalan
>> soc.culture.galiza
>
> Excuse me, Ms. Thomas, but you forgot soc.culture.asturias.
I most certainly did, Viper, and I have already been corrected
on this by other posters. Now, it is my contention that four of
these groups (s.c.asturies, s.c.basque, s.c.galiza, and s.c.spain)
refer primarily to places, whereas s.c.catalan refers primarily to
a language. And I want to know where 'charnego' fits into the big
picture of the newsgroups related to Spain. It is important to me,
in the context of creating another newsgroup related to Spain,
that the subject of the newsgroup be recognized as legitimate
by readers of other groups related to Spain. This doesn't mean
everybody has to agree, just that there be sufficient support to
justify creating the group.
You will notice, for example, that there is no newsgroup named
soc.culture.anglo-american. Why not? Because the term
anglo-american is not commonly used to identify US citizens
whose ancestors came from England. The term 'anglo' is used
most often instead to refer to non-Hispanic whites in the United
States. There is no way you could make a separate newsgroup
from that.
Charnego is definitely not a place in Spain. The word refers to
immigrants to Catalonia from other parts of Spain, what one
poster has referred to as "internal immigration." This occurs in
most countries of the world; people are free to move around
almost anywhere they want within their own country. The difference
here is that the immigrants from Spain each have their own culture
and language which they bring with them to Catalonia, and some
apparently resist the idea that they must now become Catalans.
You went to soc.culture.catalan and soc.culture.spain to talk
about your feelings in regard to the charnego, and apparently
were not well received. A lot of harsh words flew back and forth,
so you decided to go out and create your own newsgroup. That
is not a bad idea, but you went about it in the wrong way. You
didn't take enough time to think about what the reaction would
be, and you were very surprised to find out that it was negative.
Now it's time to see what can be done to undo the damage.
I have made the following suggestions in a couple of other
threads:
1. Withdraw the current RFD.
2. Invite Spanish-speakers who support the idea to join
you on a mailing list and work together to make another
RFD which will be ten times better than this one.
3. Set up a web site to discuss charnego culture, and
see what kind of reaction you get.
4. Invite visitors to your web site to join the charnego
mailing list to discuss charnego culture and express
their views on the idea of a charnego newsgroup.
5. Take your time writing up your new proposal. It
will be worth it in the end. If you're going to have a
newsgroup, you should make it the best newsgroup
you can.
6. Take Russ Allbery's advice and ignore all slings
and arrows. They only serve to provoke you into
making angry responses, and that does not help
at all. I think you are smart enough to know how to
use a killfile.
FMM
On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:56:39 +0100
in <34716657...@alu-etsetb.upc.es>
Viper <mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es> wrote:
*
He notado que usted agrego soc.culture.spain en su respuesta a
mi articulo en news.groups (lo que no deja de ser ironico dada
su supuesta oposicion al cross-posting). Le mando mi respuesta
a s.c.s para que no parezca alli que he ignorado su respuesta.
*
| Mr. Monasterio:
|
| I AM A CHARNEGO. YOU ARE NOT. I perfectly know what IS an insult
| for me. You do NOT. I realize when I feel OFFENDED by a term. You
| do NOT.
|
| I was born in Barcelona. I have lived for almost 23 years in a
| charnego quarter in Hospitalet de Llobregat, the second largest
| city in Catalonia. Now I live in Barcelona, in a mixed neighborhood.
| I went to a high school placed in a almost 100% charnego quarter. A
| great part of my friends are charnegos. All my relatives are. I know
| perfectly what they (we) are, how we feel, what we want, what we're
| worried about, what we have got, what we haven't, what we expect and
| what we deserve. YOU DO NOT.
|
| I read books of Juan Marsé and Agustín Goytisolo. I buy the new
| releases of "El último de la fila" and "Loquillo". I listen to Justo
| Molinero's radio station sometimes (very few times, that's the true).
| You, probably, DO NOT. I know what the charnego culture is. You DO NOT.
|
| Have I ever gone to the argentinean group to illustrate porteños or
| rioplatenses about their matters and their way of living?.
|
| Please, stop saying nonsenses about charnegos. I guess you have "a
| crush" on me due to the former flame between SCS and SCA. Therefore,
| please again, forget old rages and leave soc.culture.charnego alone.
|
|> Until then, I would rather vote NO to soc.culture.charnego.
|
| Haz lo que te salga de las pelotas.
<
This posting illustrates well your attitude about Usenet NGs-creation
rules in general, and this RFD in particular. Both you and Mr. Soria
posted articles in Spanish-speaking soc.culture NGs such as S.C.A,
asking for them to make their views knwown in news.groups... Clearly,
you forgot to add that this was OK as long as one was in your favor,
else you complain and finish with a vulgar last line in Spanish as in
this case ("do whatever comes from your balls").
In this posting that infuriates you so much, Mr Martinez, I was only
correcting a misleading posting (under a faked identity) of Mr Cruz,
a correction which you do not dispute, and giving my opinion of what
I saw in your country. You seem to ignore that (a) you have no right
to impose censure just because you do not like my opinions, and (b)
the RFD period is just for this, to discuss and not censure people.
Your very attitude is not only contrary to the spirit of the Usenet,
but extremely myopic, as your own requirements to permit an opinion
(birthplace, local schooling, living in a charnego quarter, and the
all important listening to local radiostations) would *exclude* some
of your supporters.
I certainly do not have reasons to have grudges against you for the
flame war between s.c.a and s.c.s.; you seem to forget that I did
*not* participate in such puerile activities at all. I do happen to
know, yes, that you organized and commanded that flame war, simply
because that is a matter of Usenet record and not of opinion.
Finally, I cannot fail to note in your question about going to the
Argentine group to illustrate about matters and way of living, that
you have come from time to time to give us your assesment of various
matters. I remember, for instance, your masterpiece of
Subject: ME HE QUEDADO A GUSTO.
From: Viper <mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es>
Date: 1997/10/21
Message-ID: <344CF7A5...@alu-etsetb.upc.es>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.spain,soc.culture.argentina
where you illustrate to the fora (in rapturous detail, one must note)
your technique of defecation, which --to me-- describes your way of
living. Incidentally, in this article you added that "especially now
that I have left ... soc.culture.catalan at the hands of Don Arturo's
army" you had "started a search of new inspirations, especially among
the hispanic-american groups".
-- FM de Monasterio
> [for spambots]
-- root@localhost
-- abuse@localhost
-- rep.m...@mail.house.gov
Henrietta Thomas
In news.groups on Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:39:50 -0800, Gurriato Gurriatez
<eso...@unmc.edu> wrote:
>I think that most of us would agree to name the group
>soc.culture.catalonia.charnego.The first name would desisgnate the
>place, Catalonia, the second the culture, the Charnego If charnego is
>not allowed to appear in the tittle, we would not be interested in
>pursuing this project any longer. We would agree with the recomendation
>of robomoderation.ButI don't think there is any interest by the other
>proponents in delaying the proposal. Moderators said that they would be
>satisfied if we would agree with one of the suggestions. We agreed with
>two: changing the name of the group and robomoderating it.
In that case, I would suggest that you start writing another RFD to replace
the one currently on the table. It should include whatever revisions you
want to make in the rationale, a statement of your moderation policy, and
the names of the people who will be in charge of the robomoderator. You
should also add as many co-proponents as you can from among the
people you are talking to. And, of course, you should change the name.
[snip]....
>At this stage I would like to proceed with a soc.culture.catalonian
>charnego, with robomoderation, without delaying the proposal.
>
>I hope that Mr Viper agrees with that.
I hope so, too.
Henrietta
P.S. Please do not post html in Usenet. That will turn the "regulars"
off, too.
Artur Sixto
as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk (Artur Sixto) writes:
|> NAME ALTERNATIVES TO S.C.CHARNEGO SO FAR
|>
|>
|> Jaume M Canaves:
|>
|> talk.politics.catalan
|> talk.politics.<whatever-you-want-instead-of-charnego>.
|>
|> Russ Allbery
|>
|> |>talk.politics.charnego would probably work too, although some
|> |>people apparently are insulted enough by the term that choosing
|> |>another may be wise.
|>
|> Henrietta Thomas:
|>
|> soc.culture.catalonia (for the place)
|> soc.culture.catalonia.charnego (for the people)
She also proposed:
soc.culture.spain.minorities
Which I think is quite good.
Artur Sixto
|>
|> `Sinner':
|>
|> alt.politics.*
|> alt.misc.flames.catalonia-and-argentina
|> alt.flame.catalonia
|> alt.talk.politics.catalonia
|>
|>
|> 1) I think an alt.poltics.* or a talk.politics.* group would be
|> allright. I disagree with the soc.culture hierarchy for reasons
|> that I've been on and on about. Basically: `charnego' doesn't
|> define a culture, and neither does it to be a spanish speaker
|> (coming from different places and being 400 million worldwide).
|>
|> 2) I disagree completely with a soc.culture.catalonia because:
|> ^^^^^^^^^
|> -there's never been any demand for that group
|> -people are very keen to share a group between all catalan
|> speakers since the issues they face in the territories
|> sharing this language are intimately interrelated. For example,
|> the `charnego' issue is replicated in Valencia where the terms
|> `blavero' and `pancas' kind of substitute (politically) for
|> `charnego' and `polako'. That's why the group was named after
|> the language and not after regional boundaries.
|> -the creation of s.c.catalonia would be very detrimental
|> to s.c.catalan. It would either divert people at random
|> from the sister group, or it would be a clone of it.
|> -it would be confusing: people wanting to know about
|> Catalan culture would wonder which way to go.
|> -the traffic in s.c.catalan is far too low for a split
|> to be advantageuos rather than damaging.
|>
|> 3) Regarding the word `charnego', it's just unacceptable to me.
|> Charnego is a taboo word in Catalonia. It's understood by
|> most people to be an insult and it's just unthinkable that
|> a newsgroup can be called like that (except maybe in some
|> alt.outrageous.charnego form that nobody is interested in).
|>
|> For the same set of reasons I think A. Roig's proposal of
|> soc.culture.catalan.charnego -being basically equivalent
|> to the original proposal- is just as unacceptable. It would
|> split soc.culture.catalan and incorporate an impossible word.
|>
|> I suggest:
|>
|> talk.politics.spain.languages
|> talk.politics.spain.bilingualism
|> talk.politics.catalan.countries
|> talk.politics.catalonia.bilingualism
|>
|> But to be honest, the reasonable thing would be to let this
|> frenzy cool down and see what people want to have after
|> s.c.catalan's robomoderation is implemented. (That is, to
|> postpone the whole RFD/CFV procedure until then.)
|>
|> This robomoderation is what prompted the proponents to
|> launch an s.c.ch. group thinking they would be prevented
|> from participating in s.c.catalan. (?) When robomoderation
|> is implemented they will come back to s.c.catalan after
|> a while and participate the same way catalan speakers are
|> now participating in s.c.s. and s.c.c. keeping the threads
|> separate. Either they will do that, I predict, or they'll
|> just loose interest in the whole affair and stay only in
|> s.c.s., or won't lose interest but will discuss in s.c.s.
|> the `charnego' issue (forgetting completely about the
|> creation of a specific group for that).
|>
|> Artur Sixto
Fritz the Cat
Viper wrote:
>
> I read books of Juan Marsé and Agustín Goytisolo.
Many catalonians read such books, not only 'charnegos'.
OTOH when I want to read a book, I don't pay attention
of the author's 'ethnicity'. I read lots of sci-fi, almost
exclusively from USA authors. So what ?
> I buy the new releases
> of "El último de la fila" and "Loquillo".
I love 'El ultimo ...' and 'Loquillo'. So what ?
> I listen to Justo Molinero's
> radio station sometimes (very few times, that's the true).
This radio station is not 'charnego-oriented' but andalusian,
if I'm not wrong.
Very solid arguments, indeed !
-------------------------------
Voteu NO a soc.culture.charnego
-------------------------------
Lynn Diana Gazis
Henrietta Thomas (h...@wwa.com) wrote:
: In news.groups on Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:02:12 GMT, alva...@hotmail.com (Pakete)
: wrote:
: >Henrietta, Russ and Lynn Diana:
: >
: >In another thread I have affirmed that I agree with the robomoderation
: >of the charnego group, but I'd want make before a couple of questions
: >whose answer I've not been able to find in FAQ's.
: >
: >1) Should the robomoderation be necessary for the creation of
: >soc.culture.catalan.charnego?
: No. Not unless you expect a lot of crossposts, spam, or flamewars,
: in which case you should propose a moderated group and explain
: that it will be limited to robomoderation only.
There's something of a difference of opinion here in news.groups about
whether soc.culture groups *in general* should be moderated. Some people
(like Chris Stone) believe very strongly that soc.culture groups are too
flame-prone without some form of moderation, and recommend that any new
soc.culture group be at least robomoderated. Moderation is more common
in new soc.culture proposals than it was several years ago, and so,
though many groups in soc.culture are not moderated at all, the
proportion of new soc.culture groups which are moderated in some way is
higher.
I don't go as far as Chris Stone, in that I don't automatically recommend
moderation for all soc.culture groups. In this case, though, we already
*know* that there is a cross-posted political flamewar on this topic,
which is likely to find its way to the new group (and it doesn't much
matter which side started the flamewar, or who is more responsible for
it). So, I'd recommend at least robomoderation against crossposts, to
allow some room for more varied cultural discussions.
: This requires that you set up some moderation software, and appoint
: someone to be in charge of the robomoderator. This person (or
: persons) should be identified in the RFD, and you'd have to spell
: out your moderation policies in the charter. It is kind of a complicated
Agreed.
: thing, so I don't recommend it unless you are certain it is really
: necessary. And judging by the types of insults we are seeing here
: in news.groups, it might be worth it to have a "no crosspost" rule.
For a group which uses moderation *only* for crossposts, see talk.origins
(this one was controversial because it is the only robomoderated group in
talk, but would not be so controversial in a soc.culture group). This
crossposting restriction is perhaps too liberal, actually (talk.origins
is a group which needs to receive crossposts redirected from other
groups, and your group really wouldn't). You might want to check some of
the charters for other soc.culture groups, looking for ones which use
robomoderation, and then take the restrictions which could be applied
automatically.
[snipped]
: I believe soc.culture.galiza is a moderated group. That's what they
: asked for in their RFD, and when the proposal passed, that's what
: they got. You might want to take a look at soc.culture.galiza to see
: how they are making out.
: soc.culture.basque is also a moderated group, so you might want
: to take a look there, too.
Off the top of my head, other moderated soc.culture groups include
soc.culture.hawaii, soc.culture.ethiopea, I think I recall a proposal for
a moderated soc.culture.cameroon but forget whether it passed,
soc.culture.russian.moderated, soc.culture.african.american.moderated,
soc.culture.japan.moderated. Some of these groups (particularly the ones
which already have unmoderated alternatives available) may have
moderation policies more restrictive of content than I suspect you want,
but you can always borrow, from these groups, those restrictions which
apply only to format (such as no crossposting, no binaries, no messages
which are too large), and ignore the ones which involve moderating for
content or tone.
STUMP is a useful, publically available robomoderation program which you
can use to handle the crosspost restriction (and you could always set
your charter to allow crosspost restriction only, and not use other
moderation).
You would need at least one person who is able to operate the
robomoderator, and a site which it can be run from. Igor Chudov provides
a gateway for STUMP-moderated groups to use if they don't have a
well-connected site (that is, if injecting to news from the site which
you are running STUMP on doesn't result in good propagation).
: Btw, let me explain that robomoderation would not affect my vote.
: I have intended from the beginning to abstain, because I do not
: intend to read or post to the group, and so far, I see no reason to
: vote no.
: Henrietta
: ---
: Confused by the noise in news.groups? For an in-depth explanation,
: see the Bernstein/McQuitty news.groups FAQ:
: http://www.tezcat.com/~josephb/newsgroups/debate.html
It would, however, affect my vote (and that of some other people).
Lynn Gazis-Sax
Pakete
Fritz the Cat <cat_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Viper wrote:
>>
>> I read books of Juan Marsé and Agustín Goytisolo.
>Many catalonians read such books, not only 'charnegos'.
>OTOH when I want to read a book, I don't pay attention
>of the author's 'ethnicity'. I read lots of sci-fi, almost
>exclusively from USA authors. So what ?
I was reading during a few months tibetan books. Writed by tibetan
men. They talked in this books about tibetan culture. All the people
can read books of any culture. The fact of we read books of one or
another culture doesn't mean that a determinated culture doesn't exist
or isn't different of ours. So what?
>> I buy the new releases
>> of "El último de la fila" and "Loquillo".
>I love 'El ultimo ...' and 'Loquillo'. So what ?
An aragonese friend of mine loves 'Atahualpa Yupanki'. Does it mean
that doesn't exist 'peruan/inca culture/music' or must we deduce that
Atahualpa music belongs to aragonese culture?
>> I listen to Justo Molinero's
>> radio station sometimes (very few times, that's the true).
>This radio station is not 'charnego-oriented' but andalusian,
>if I'm not wrong.
Once more you might remember that charnegos are andalusians,
galicians, estremadurians, asturians, murcians, castilians... that one
day went to live and work to Catalonia.
>Very solid arguments, indeed !
Yours are neither a prodigy of solidity...
Cheers,
Pakete
Lynn Diana Gazis
Agustí Roig (ro...@ma1.upc.es) wrote:
[snipped]
: Otherwise, I think that the use of the term "ethnic group" implies
: a particular point of view --a nationalist one. And again, despite
: the desires or believes of Viper or artur, it doesn't seem that the
: majority of "charnegos", nor the majority of "catalans" (in the
: supposed *ethnic* sense) would agree to be classified acording
: the rules of Viper or artur.
Apparently the term "ethnic group" has different connotations in Spain
from the connotations it has in the US.
Lynn Gazis-Sax (who will try to avoid the term "ethnic group" in this
discussion, to avoid running into that difference in interpretation)
Artur Sixto
[subject was `Re: WHAT'S IN A GROUP NAME? PRIDE, SAY THE CHARNEGOS.
Was: Your opinion is important, Agusti. (sobre soc.culture.charnego)']
Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes on:
1) Name picking considerations
2) Confused catalonian/polako/charnego terminology
3) Community identity and pride
4) Language status (official and social) and fluency in catalan
5) Speaking in tongues (Pre-hominid)
-------------
1) NAME PICKING CONSIDERATIONS
|> Picking a name for a newly created newsgroup is a lot licke picking one
|> for a baby: You want one that sounds good, one most people won't make
|> fun of and -most important- one everyone can agree on.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So you picked `charnego' to make fun of catalans and, of course,
managed to have everyone agreed on that: most of us reject it.
2) CONFUSED CATALAONIAN/POLAKO/CHARNEGO TERMINOLOGY
|> Catalonians and Charnegos take the naming seriously.
Wasn't Catalonia according to you a mixture with 1 half of `polakos'
plus 1 half of `charnegos'? Don't the proponents scream at people when
somebody says that `charnegos' aren't Catalonian?
3) COMMUNITY IDENTITY AND PRIDE
|> Community identity is at stake. It is a matter of PRIDE
The only think at stake here is your personal pride. The proponents'
pride after leaving abruptly s.c.catalan motu proprio and bragging
in s.c.spain about ridiculing `polakos' by creating a s.c.charnego.
The community identity and pride you talk about are fictional and
you know it. The identity and pride of spanish speakers in Catalonia
comes from feeling chiefly catalans or spaniards, whith some people
having roots in other places also taking pride in being Andalusian,
Galician, Asturian, etc.
|> I believe that when Charnego people embrace the term "Charnego pride"
Spanish speakers have _not_ embraced the term `charnego'. It's a lie.
`Charengo pride' is an expression that you've made up for convenience
that nobody has ever used.
4) LANGUAGE STATUS (OFFICIAL AND SOCIAL) AND FLUENCY IN CATALAN
|> To some Americans, the idea of designating Catalan as the only official
|> language of Catalonia may seem an unnecessary law, even a bit silly
|> -after all, doesn't virtually everybody speak Catalan there? The
|> answer, in a word, is NO. In fact virtually everybody is fully fluent in
|> Spanish, but only half the population can converse in Catalan in an
|> adequate level.
It's untrue that catalan is being made the only official language
of Catalonia. The spanish Constitution, the catalan Statute of Autonomy,
the 1983 catalan law of Normalitzacio Linguistica and the new catalan
law of Politica Linguistica all state that spanish is official and
its use protected.
Tt's also untrue that only half the catalan population is conversant
with catalan. All spanish speakers understand it and most can use it.
|> Making fluency in Catalanan a condition sine qua non for
|> high level jobs is de facto discriminating to more than half the
|> population. Converting the language of a numerical minority in an elite
|> status symbol is the worse form of discrimination that can be done in a
|> country.
This is untrue. Both languages being official the administration must
ask for civil servants to know catalan. Otherwise it's catalan speakers'
right to adress the administration in their own language that would be
violated. The citizen's rights are above those of a few civil servants.
Besides, this thing about some people not being fluent in catalan will
soon be something of the past. So much so that the new law of Politica
Linguistica makes linguistics rights and duties the same for everybody,
introducing a duty to learn catalan where there still is only a duty to
learn spanish.
Your saying that catalan is being converted in a status symbol for
an elite is not just untrue: it's exageratedly untrue and plainly
ridiculous. Before I knew you I thought things could true or false
(allowing for uncertainties of course). Now I've discovered there
are 3 categories: true, untrue and exageratedly untrue.
5) SPEAKING IN TONGUES (PRE-HOMINID)
|> prisoners of biology. Over millions of years of human evolution, the
|> evolution of languager and culture gradually took our species out of a
Good to know that you `speak' languages several milion years old,
when all we had in the culture of pre-hominid primates was a limited
range of utterances and body language for want of an adequate larynx.
:-)
Artur Sixto
Artur Sixto
The debate on s.c.charnego turned to digressions on Logic, cave
paintings and transvestism. I won't say it doesn't make sense.
Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
|> Cave paintings in the nursing home
`Cave pantings' is an appropriate description. I suppose you
refer to what we call the `caverna' in Catalonia (good old
retrograde spanish nationalism, found left and right of the
political spectrum).
|> You have MANY skeletons in your closet, querido Samicro. You remind me
|> of one when you mentioned those nurses taking care of me. Do you
|> remember when you said that you liked to go to parties dressed as a
|> nurse and show your tities to excite people. I could dig the story for
|> your reading pleasure, if you insist...Remember, els Charnegos tambe
|> esmolem ben be les eines.
:-)) :-)) :-))
Oh, please, yes, copy it here: ridicule yourself a little more.
Not only I don't have any `skeleton in my closet', but I've never
been or mentioned going to parties dressed up like a nurse or
showing my tits.
|> By the way, do you know which part of my anatomy I call Wifredo el
|> Peludo (Wilfred the Hairy)?
|>
|> How do you call yours, Pepino el Breve?
In my case it's always been there, so I never call it.
Artur Sixto
Agustí Roig
Henrietta Thomas escribió:
> In news.groups on Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:06:34 GMT, alva...@hotmail.com (Pakete)
> wrote:
>
>
> >Ethnics groups? In Spain?
>
> >Please, Artur, don't say nonsenses.
>
> I believe he is saying that only because that's what my Almanac
> says -- it lists the "ethnic groups" of Spain -- and he is trying to
> clarify some of the meanings for me.
>
> It is obvious, however, that there are many different groupings
> of people in Spain. If we cannot call them "ethnic" groups, what
> shall we call them?
>
> Henrietta
Despite the nationalist desires of my collegue (so to speak) artur,
which in this particular point agrees with the proponents of
soc.culture.charnego, which belive too in the existence of an
"ethnic group" (namely the "charnego" one), maybe a better word
for them could be "people from" o "people living in" Catalonia,
Basque country, and so on...
This is if you are talking about the place (autonomous region
of Spain) where they live. If you are talking about their mother
tongue you could classify Spanish citizents by catalan-speaking,
basque-speaking,...
And, of course, you have spanish-speaking... in Catalonia (about
one half of the population).
Otherwise, I think that the use of the term "ethnic group" implies
a particular point of view --a nationalist one. And again, despite
the desires or believes of Viper or artur, it doesn't seem that the
majority of "charnegos", nor the majority of "catalans" (in the
supposed *ethnic* sense) would agree to be classified acording
the rules of Viper or artur.
This is only my opinion, of course.
Agustí Roig
Pakete
>[subject was `Re: WHAT'S IN A GROUP NAME? PRIDE, SAY THE CHARNEGOS.
>Was: Your opinion is important, Agusti. (sobre soc.culture.charnego)']
>Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes on:
>1) Name picking considerations
>2) Confused catalonian/polako/charnego terminology
>3) Community identity and pride
>4) Language status (official and social) and fluency in catalan
>5) Speaking in tongues (Pre-hominid)
-------------
and Artur Sixto (as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk) answered:
[...]
Please, Artur, stop of writing political discourses. Most of people in
the discussion have reached to the agreement of leaving finally
politics aside.
>5) SPEAKING IN TONGUES (PRE-HOMINID)
>|> prisoners of biology. Over millions of years of human evolution, the
>|> evolution of languager and culture gradually took our species out of a
>Good to know that you `speak' languages several milion years old,
>when all we had in the culture of pre-hominid primates was a limited
>range of utterances and body language for want of an adequate larynx.
>
>:-)
You forget Atlantida, Lemuria and other ancients millennial
civilizations. Not only the Catalan politicians distort the history.
Also some scientists want us to make believe that their theories are
the supreme truth... But the history of the man is much older than
which they tell us... [:-P
(Song dedicated to Artur, with affection...)
Black helicopters?
Strange sounds by night?
Anti-Catalonian conspiracies?
Guifré Pilós's X-files?
Who you gonna call?
Char-ne-gos!!!
>Artur Sixto
Relax, Artur, relax. Take it easy.
Affectionate greetings from Spain,
Pakete
Viper
Artur Sixto wrote:
> The basic thing is, the castilian/spanish ethnic group became central
> and dominant since the middle ages. Since its origins in the XVIIc.
> the spanish state was entirely in castilian/spanish hands. The attempt
> was to follow the french example and transform Spain in an homogeneous
> castilian speaking country. The attempt was largely unsuccessful until
> this century and the different realms remained very much independent
> up until the early XVIIIc. The first monarch to officialy hold the
> Crown of Spain was Isabel II, Queen of Spain, in the early XIXc.
That information was fairly good, but I still don't see the connexion
between it and the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
Anyway, I think Mr. 6-2 should bring some Julius Caesar's comments up
since he was too in Spain 2000 years ago. Maybe it can help somebody to
make a decision about SCCh.
Artur Sixto
h...@wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) writes:
|> >This is off-topic, but I'd like to offer you some information so
|> >you can revise your ideas. Catalonia has a fiscal deficit with
|> >Spain amounting every year to around 8,000 million dollars. That's
|> >the difference between money raised in taxes in Catalonia by the
|> >spanish central government and what it invests back in Catalonia.
|>
|> Thanks for the information. I will keep it in mind. But, you know, many
|> regions in other countries have the same problem -- they send more
|> money to the Federal Government than they get back. The difference
|> appears to be that many Catalonians apparently do not feel that they
|> are a part of Spain, but rather that they are a different country altogether.
|> So I think I understand your point.
You are right Henrietta. In Catalonia the situation is not felt
like it's just an excessive effort asked from them. The situation
is felt as spoliation because Catalans don't have the political
means to change it unless they tried some sort of insurrection
which is out of question and impossible in practical terms.
Besides, the meaning of the data above is worth explaining in
more meaningful terms. The fiscal deficit represents for every
Catalan family to suffer a net los of 3200$ dollars per year to
the spanish state in a country were per capita revenue and
standards of life are under the European Union average. The
8,000 million dollars I was talking about represent about
10% of the Catalan GDP. I don't know of other places were
`solidarity' reaches this heights. NGO fight unsuccessfully
for countries allocating 0.7% of their budget (not their GDP)
to solidarity schemes. Even in a federal country like Germany,
the richest lander hardly give so much money to the rest of
Germans. Also, the money they give is still going to Germans.
In Catalonia the feeling is like that of your money being
constantly siphoned from your pocket to the neighbor's: Spain
is a multinational country, unlike Germany and others.
Catalans feel that solidarity should be a matter of negociation,
not imposed. Unfortunately for Catalans, they made a catastrophic
mistake when the Statutes of Autonomy were drafted and negociated
with the spanish authorities and political parties. The Catalans
were offered the same financial arrangement as the Basques but
preferred a different one for reasons that would take time to
explain here. The deal with the Basques implies that they collect
the taxes and transfer to Madrid the money spent by the central
government on services run by it that are enjoyed by the Basque
Country. The Catalans went for an agreement were the money is
collected by the central government, which then transfers money
to the Catalan government for services run by the latter. This
arrangement has allowed for the central government to delay money
transfers -causing indebtment of the Catalan government-, to
transfer less money than the services cost and finally to invest
consistently less money in Catalonia than other places in relative
terms.
Artur Sixto
Pakete
Viper <mmar...@alu-etsetb.upc.es> wrote:
>Artur Sixto wrote:
>> The basic thing is, the castilian/spanish ethnic group became central
>> and dominant since the middle ages. Since its origins in the XVIIc.
>> the spanish state was entirely in castilian/spanish hands. The attempt
>> was to follow the french example and transform Spain in an homogeneous
>> castilian speaking country. The attempt was largely unsuccessful until
>> this century and the different realms remained very much independent
>> up until the early XVIIIc. The first monarch to officialy hold the
>> Crown of Spain was Isabel II, Queen of Spain, in the early XIXc.
> That information was fairly good, but I still don't see the connexion
>between it and the creation of soc.culture.charnego.
> Anyway, I think Mr. 6-2 should bring some Julius Caesar's comments up
>since he was too in Spain 2000 years ago. Maybe it can help somebody to
>make a decision about SCCh.
> Cheers,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, Julius Caesar, that opressor.
He came to Hispania when we was so calm, so happy!
Evil opressor!
That bisexual foreigner and his henchmen obliged us to learn Latin
language!
to construct cities!
to read!
to write!
to trade!
Who was he to impose us all this foreign culture?
Oh, Gods from the Earth, that foreigner damaged us so much!
If he had stayed there in Rome caressing his balls we had been much
happier.
We didn't want learn to read!
We was happy!
We want independence!
We say no to European Union!
European Union is a remake of the Roman Empire!
Say noooooooo!
Independence!
Desperta Ferro!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Dedicated with affection to Artur Sixto, The Last Almogaver Hero)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This history could be real... But it wasn't
Pakete
Jose Manuel Dieguez Perez
Agust=ED Roig wrote:
> I agree with Jaume: soc.culture.catalan."something" is OK with me.
> Evensoc.culture.catalan.charnego IF people in soc.culture.catalan who a=
re
> _real_
> "charnegos" (not in the derogatory sense), agree with it. If Jose Manue=
l Die-
> guez Perez, Antonio Ortiz, Juanjo Sanmartin and other "charnegos" that =
I
> forget right now (sorry), will not be offended by this name, I'll be ab=
le to
> vote YES. Otherwise, I suggest soc.culture.catalan.spanish-speaking or
> something similar.
I agree with Jaume, too. But I don't accept the "charnego" word. I'm
not
a charnego (at least, I don't "feel" that), even though some people
insists
that I am. I am a Galician who lives in Catalonia, I speak either
spanish
or catalan (or galician if you want to know). In order to name the
group
I can accept the "spanish-speaking" better.
> I absolutely agree with Jaume's. I think that the participation of
> Viper, Emilio Soria and Enrique Diez-Alvarez in the determination
> of moderation criteria of soc.cultur.catalan will be the best solution
> for all of our troubles.
> =
> (But, then..., may I ask something? Why do you need any
> soc.culture.catalan.charnego at all?)
Can't be said better...
Regards,
*********************************************************************
JOSE MANUEL DIEGUEZ PEREZ Non lle ponhades chatas a obra
Facultat d'Informatica de Barcelona mentras non estea rematada,
Laboratori de Calcul-Area de Gestio traballade nela.
Campus Nord UPC, Modul B6 (Castelao)
Jordi Girona Salgado, 1-3
E-08034 Barcelona
Phone: +34 3 4016946 email: jo...@fib.upc.es
Fax: +34 3 4017040 WWW: http://www-fib.upc.es/
Grupo de novas en Galego: http://www.simil.es/scg/scg.htm
Johny Maracas
On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:51:39 -0800, Perique des Palottes
<no...@nowhere.noland.etc> wrote:
>
>So Milu the Goss and Concha are the same too...
>We can see hooow maaany people are favorable to your postulates.
Yes,and NOW he signs himself vict...@pangea.org .
Gurriato Gurriatez
Artur, your descriptions of Catalonia are not descriptions of actual
behavior of populations as much as statements about how the diferent
cultures ot this country SHOULD behave.
You should distinguish between an IDEAL CULTURE, social patterns
described by YOUR cultural values and norms and the REAL culture,
designating social patterns that actually occur, such as the CHARNEGO
CULTURE.
You ( as well as EL ENANO) have an aprioristic model of how Catalonia
SHOULD be. Forcing this model on people with quotas, sanctions,
immersions is called "Normalizarion". An entire culture has to desappear
for your convenience. Three and a half million people has to stop using
Spanish because you don't think this is "normal" and doens't fit in your
compartmentalized idea of the world: One country, one culture, one
Enano.
What you think is NORMAL and what is actually going on in Catalonia are
two different things. This is very simmilar to what is going on in most
marriages, that while the vast majority of people aknowledge the
importance of sexual fidelity in marriage, rouglhly one half of married
people are sexually unfaithful to their sposes at some point in their
marriages. Adultery should not exist, but it does (roughly 50% of
people). Charnegos shouln't exist, but they do ( more than 50%)
I know that this was not happening in 1714. So, what? Americans have no
problem to understand that. All elements of cultural systems, language,
ideas, norms vary over time and among different segments of the
population. People don't care about the taxonomic classifications of
sociologist. They are what they want to be, not what some pedantic
pseudoscientist want them to be.
The cultural values and norms brought to North America by English
settlers centuries ago continue to shape American life, but many of her
current interpretations of them should seem strange to Sir Walter
Raleigh or Abigail Adams. In addition, immigrant from other cultures has
introduced such a variety of patterns into this society that American
culture is far more diverse than any single description can convey. The
same has occurred in Catalonia. The average Charnego couldn't care less
about Guifre el Pilos and other characters of the X century.. You should
take care to avoid value judgements about of people whose culture
differ from your own. In own day cultural distinctiveness has become
something to celebrate, so that many people who have migrated to
Catalonia want to maintain their tradicional Charnego way of life.
Americans must think that we are nuts. Here I am somebody asking for a
newsgroup for a culture, and a bunch of guys are talking to go to courts
of law to denonce me as some kind of dangerous radical woth terrorist
tendencies. I write the word "Charnego", which everybody uses in common
parlance in Catalonia, and the same expect that a thunderbolt will hit
me because of my blasphemy and that the ground will swallow me. You ask
for education in Spanish in a country where 100% of the pupulation
speaks it fluently and more than 50% has it as their mother tongue, and
they suggest that swahili would be a better idea because they have to
take revenge from some happenings of the XVII century.
Swahili, my ass
GURRIATO GURRIATEZ
GAIVS弒VLIVS嵩AESAR
INĚDIEĚXIIĚANTEĚKALĚDECĚANNOĚMMDCCXLIXĚAĚVĚCĚ, alva...@hotmail.com
(Pakete) AVSVSĚSCRIBEREĚEST:
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ah, Julius Caesar, that opressor.
>He came to Hispania when we was so calm, so happy!
>Evil opressor!
MENĚCĚCAESAREMĚTYRANNVMĚCIVITATIBVSĚHISPANISĚFVISSE?Ě
MENĚOPPRESOREMĚLIBERTATIĚEORVMĚQVIĚIPSEĚAĚPOMPEIANISĚLIBERAVI?Ě
MEN?ĚPROSEQVIĚNEQVEOĚTAMĚIRATVSĚVERBORVMĚIMPVDENTIVMĚSVMĚ
VTĚVERBAĚMEAĚFVGERINT:NONNEĚHOMVNCVLEĚBAETICEĚCOMMENTARIOSĚ
DEĚBELLOĚCIVILIĚMEOSĚLEGISTI?ĚNONNEĚMEAĚDIVINITATEĚMOVERIS?ĚERGOĚ
FERROĚMOVEBERIS...
>That bisexual foreigner and his henchmen.................................
QVIDĚESTĚTIBIĚCVMĚCVPIDITATIBVSĚMEISĚFVRCIFER?Ě EDEPOLĚPEDI-
CABOĚEGOĚTEĚETĚIRRVMABOĚFILIĚTERRAEĚNISIĚISTAĚGARRVLITASĚTVAĚSTATIMĚ
CESSAT:QVODĚIPSOĚIOVIĚPLACVITĚDIVOĚCAESARIĚNONĚPLACEBIT?.
>...................................................................obliged us to learn Latin
>language!
>to construct cities!
>to read!
>to write!
>to trade!
>
QVID?ĚQVOMODOĚTALIAĚNEFANDAĚDICEREĚAVSVSĚESTĚMAXIMEĚINTERĚ
PATHICOSĚPATHICE?ĚNVMQVAMĚNEMOĚVTĚLATINEĚLOQVERETVRĚCOERCITVSĚ
FVITĚSEDĚQVISQVISĚVOLVITĚHOCĚFECIT.
>Who was he to impose us all this foreign culture?
>
>Oh, Gods from the Earth, that foreigner damaged us so much!
>If he had stayed there in Rome caressing his balls we had been much
>happier.
>
>We didn't want learn to read!
>We was happy!
>We want independence!
>We say no to European Union!
>European Union is a remake of the Roman Empire!
>Say noooooooo!
>Independence!
>Desperta Ferro!
>
TEĚHVMANITATEMĚDISCEREĚNOLLE?ĚBAETICVMĚVELĚHISPANVMĚMAGISĚ
QVAMĚEVROPAEVMĚCIVEMĚESSEĚVELLE?ĚVIVEĚIGITVRĚVTĚPOSSISĚCVMĚVIVEREĚ
VTĚVISĚNONĚPOTESĚ
źVELĚFACĚSISĚPROCVRATORĚEXPOSITIONISĚVNIVERSALISĚ
VRBISĚHISPALENSIVMĚINĚANNOĚ1992ĚVELĚFACĚPORRIGASĚ
MANVMĚADĚSTIPEMĚQVAEĚPERĚ(PLANĚEMPLEOĚRVRAL)ĚEST╗
VALEĚATQVEĚVALE
SCRĚROMAEĚAĚDIVOĚIVLIOĚDIEĚPOSTĚLECTISTERNIAĚDEAEĚCYBELES
jb
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
In news.groups on 17 Nov 1997 00:56:42 GMT, as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk
(Artur Sixto)
wrote:
E. Soria suffers from an infantile psychological condition know as
encopresis: crapping around on purpose, in despite.
[I won't answer the rest of his 216 lines. Haven't got enough bleach.]
This is not necessary. If you don't like what Dr. Sorio says, just put
him in your killfile. We are here to discuss a proposal, not sling mud.
I am surprised because, in another thread, you made a good analysis
of the situation that led me to think you were ready for a compromise.
But I guess I was wrong. :-(
Followups to news.groups, soc.culture.spain.
Agustí Roig
Jaume M. Canaves escribió:
I agree with most of Jaume said about Emilio Soria's suggestions, so I will not
repeat
everything, but only point out some important things about their conversation:
> On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Gurriato Gurriatez wrote:
>
> > I would like to resolve this issues once for all by requesting a
> > straight answer from the proponents of the group and other people
> > interested in creating it
> >
> > DO YOU WANT
> >
> > 1) Change the name to soc.culture.catalan.charnego or something similar
I agree with Jaume: soc.culture.catalan."something" is OK with me.
Evensoc.culture.catalan.charnego IF people in soc.culture.catalan who are
_real_
"charnegos" (not in the derogatory sense), agree with it. If Jose Manuel Die-
guez Perez, Antonio Ortiz, Juanjo Sanmartin and other "charnegos" that I
forget right now (sorry), will not be offended by this name, I'll be able to
vote YES. Otherwise, I suggest soc.culture.catalan.spanish-speaking or
something similar.
> > 2) Robomoderation of the group against crossposting
>
> I find this proposal rather amusing, considering your attitude against
> the robomoderation of soc.culture.catalan.
[...]
> What about involving yourselves in the
> determination of the criteria to moderate soc.culture.catalan and
> participate in the drafting of the new charter for soc.culture.catalan?
I absolutely agree with Jaume's. I think that the participation of
Viper, Emilio Soria and Enrique Diez-Alvarez in the determination
of moderation criteria of soc.cultur.catalan will be the best solution
for all of our troubles.
(But, then..., may I ask something? Why do you need any
soc.culture.catalan.charnego at all?)
Agustí Roig
Artur Sixto
Gurriato Gurriatez <eso...@unmc.edu> writes:
|> Artur, your descriptions of Catalonia are not descriptions of actual
|> behavior of populations as much as statements about how the diferent
|> cultures ot this country SHOULD behave.
I haven't described behaviors. I don't know what you're talking about.
|> You should distinguish between an IDEAL CULTURE, social patterns
|> described by YOUR cultural values and norms and the REAL culture,
|> designating social patterns that actually occur, such as the CHARNEGO
|> CULTURE.
I've described Catalonia in terms of a multicultural society with
an autochtonous culture and language. I've never talked or dreamed
of some `ideal culture'. I only dream of ideal human beings. The
`charnego' word doesn't apply to any specific culture, and will
never do because you repeat it in capital letters in every post.
|> You ( as well as EL ENANO) have an aprioristic model of how Catalonia
|> SHOULD be. Forcing this model on people with quotas, sanctions,
I don't express aprioristic ideas about Catalonia and I am not willing
to impose anything on anybody. (And `models' can only be a priori BTW.)
The president of Catalonia that you call `THE DWARF' (enano) wins
democratic elections with a law that ensures proportional representation,
and everybody can vote: spanish speaking `charnegos' as well. It's true
that spanish speakers are half the population and yet they give `EL ENANO'
coalition 60 MPs out of 135, and the linguistic policies are endorsed
most parties up to a total of around 120 MPs.
|> immersions is called "Normalizarion". An entire culture has to desappear
|> for your convenience. Three and a half million people has to stop using
|> Spanish because you don't think this is "normal" and doens't fit in your
|> compartmentalized idea of the world: One country, one culture, one
|> Enano.
You lie. Nobody has to stop using their language because kids are
taught in catalan at school (public schools). Both languages are
official and protected, and Spanish is very much the dominant one
is many cases (like in the Media, cinema, trade, product labels, etc)
You resent that kids are taught in Catalan and why is that? Because
you do not want, despite all your discourses about multiculturalism
and metissage that they might end up intermarrying and speaking Catalan
at home, not even in the Nth generation. On the contrary, you know
that Catalan speakers _have_ to be bilingual and will always switch
to Spanish if the other person isn't fluent enough in Catalan. That
ensures that most mixed couples end up with Spanish speaking kids,
and _this_ is what you want. You couldn't care less about your fictional
`charnego' immigrant. What you are desperate to avoid is spanish speakers
feeling at home with Catalan the way Catalans feel at home with Spanish:
this would make linguistic tendencies change and Catalan recover from
its prostration. What the proponents feel involved with is _not_ the
immigrants, but dreams of a grand Spanish speaking Espana, a `Piel
de Toro' (=Spain) that would hold water. For that, you are ready
to manipulate the immigrant population and try to turn it against
Catalan political leaders and parties without asking them what they
want, which they say but you are _not_ interested. You don't listen
and you deny people's wishes: take the example of the spanish speakers
from _Catalonia_ in this debate. Most are against you but you ignore
and deny that.
|> What you think is NORMAL and what is actually going on in Catalonia are
|> two different things. This is very simmilar to what is going on in most
|> marriages, that while the vast majority of people aknowledge the
|> importance of sexual fidelity in marriage, rouglhly one half of married
|> people are sexually unfaithful to their sposes at some point in their
|> marriages. Adultery should not exist, but it does (roughly 50% of
|> people). Charnegos shouln't exist, but they do ( more than 50%)
I'm not interested in your sexual life if you have one.
|> I know that this was not happening in 1714. So, what? Americans have no
|> problem to understand that. All elements of cultural systems, language,
|> ideas, norms vary over time and among different segments of the
|> population. People don't care about the taxonomic classifications of
|> sociologist. They are what they want to be, not what some pedantic
|> pseudoscientist want them to be.
You are the only pedantic pseudoscientist: a medical doctor pretending
to lecture everyone on what `ethnicity' means, not having a fucking clue
about it and dismissing as `sociobabble' litterature quoted from profes-
sional sociolinguists.
|> I write the word "Charnego", which everybody uses in common parlance
|> in Catalonia
You lie. You won't normally hear that word in Catalonia and it'll have
bad connoations and be offensive when you do, most of times.
|> they suggest that swahili would be a better idea because they have to
|> take revenge from some happenings of the XVII century.
|>
|> Swahili, my ass
What's wrong with Swahili, you idiot? And where's the revenge? It is in
creating an insulting newsgroup because you won't be able to cross-post
insults to s.c.catalan when it gets robomoderated.
Artur Sixto
Artur Sixto
VOTE _NO_ TO A `CHARNEGO' NEWSGROUP
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See below about its Rationale...
jb <1stb...@neta.com> writes:
|> Henrietta Thomas wrote:
|>
|> In news.groups on 17 Nov 1997 00:56:42 GMT, as1...@cus.cam.ac.uk
|> (Artur Sixto)
|> wrote:
|>
|> E. Soria suffers from an infantile psychological condition know as
|> encopresis: crapping around on purpose, in despite.
|>
|>
|> [I won't answer the rest of his 216 lines. Haven't got enough bleach.]
|>
|> This is not necessary. If you don't like what Dr. Sorio says, just put
|> him in your killfile. We are here to discuss a proposal, not sling mud.
|> I am surprised because, in another thread, you made a good analysis
|> of the situation that led me to think you were ready for a compromise.
|> But I guess I was wrong. :-(
Thanks JB, for reproducing a post I had lost track of. I guess you've
done it just for the sake of people in alt.culture.us.hispanics (I
notice you include this NG in the headers which wasn't there, and I
am adding a few others.)
It's worth explaining something else to them. The condition I am
talking about is not mud slinging. E. Soria (aka Gurriato etc) keeps
making references to sex and defecation. He goes as far as crapping
on things in his messages (he says so) -usually on Catalans and their
language, institutions, symbols, governmental policies, etc- and even
picturing himself using shit to draw the Catalan flag on walls.
Even without this interesting coprophilia, Mr. Soria has always been
crapping a little more metaphorically on Catalans, their forums, etc
by sending them insults, deriding and despising them, flooding their
soc.culture group with irrelevant stuff cross-posted from s.c.spain,
etc. (He also cross-posted to s.c.argentina and other places to annoy
people.)
Now let's put all this together with two other facts. First, his
childish behavior: not listening, distorting things, deriving pleasure
from all his mischiefs, shit talk and people's anger, being obsessed
with 1 thing he wants, wasting everybody's time talking bollocks and
seeking attention, his exhibitionism, etc. Second, his extraordinary
ressentment of Catalans. The way he is (i.e. impossible) he must have
been a royal pain in the ass for all his colleagues in Barcelona. I am
sure he must have had problems, particularly with his lack of tact in
a land that was suffering a cultural genocide at the time, with people
clinging to their language and clandestine symbols. He must have
preferred to imagine (childishly again) that his social/professional
problems were all due to Catalan doctors' xenophobia and arrogance
and he finally had to seek work abroad (like so many other Catalan
doctors and scientists). Now he resents it and hates us though it's a
funny hate/love story because he still knows somewhere deeply inside
that he's lying to himself and everybody, and he can't get on with his
life and forget us for a day. He's even proud he can write passably
well in Catalan though he hates it (and himself a bit, like some real
Catalans, for not achieving real competence and fluency, or aisance).
So what do we have?
1) crapping around
2) childishness
3) ressentment (accounting for 1)
This is perfectly summarized in the metaphor of a kid suffering
from ENCOPRESIS.
Artur Sixto
DR. SORIO WOULD LOVE TO BE A CATALAN. HE HATES NOT BEING ABLE TO
FEEL LIKE A REAL CATALAN `DE LA CEBA', THEREFORE HE HATES THEM
BEING THERE AND REMINDING HIM HIS `FAILURE' AND HENCE WANTS US ALL
TO DISAPPEAR. HE THINKS (QUITE RIGHTLY SO) THAT WE WILL ALL COMMIT
HARA-KIRI WHEN WE SEE A CHARNEGO NEWSGROUP AND DOESN'T MIND THE
REAL OR PRESUMED `CHARNEGOS' COMMITING HARA-KIRI BY THE SAME TOKEN.
HE WILL GET HIS DAMN NG, HAVE US ALL DEAD AND THEN WILL MISS US
BUT WILL HAVE A REST: NO MORE POLAKOS, NO MORE CHARNEGOS, NOTHING.