Profanity in the USSR
Neal Dalton
Subject: International Intercultural Newsletter #4
To: Multiple recipients of list XCULT-L <XCULT-L@PSUVM>
Vulgarity and Insults: A Cross-Cultural Perspective
A Word of Explanation
This issue of the newsletter will deal with an unusual
topic. It is the topic of obscenity or profanity. These
are the words that are traditionally not taught in the
foreign language classrooms. Although profanity is common
in virtually every culture, what different cultures view as
obscene or profane varies greatly. In this issue we will
discuss some of these differences. A WORD OF WARNING: Some
of the language used in this issue may be rather "colorful",
please be aware that these words are not being used for
sensationalism, but for the purpose of discussion, please do
not become offended by the use or discussion of these words.
This is a topic I personally find extremely interesting and
would appreciate any comments you may have. I hope you can
appreciate this rather "unusual" topic of language.
--Doug Byler JDB134
======================================================================
Profanity in the USSR
In the Soviet Union, and in particular Russia, the use of vulgarity
and profanity is widespread. In this culture 'swearing' is perhaps
even more popular than in America. Dr. Linda Ivanits, professor of
Russian and Slavic languages at Penn State, says that there is
really no comparison for the swearing done in the Soviet Republics.
She had several interesting things to say about the Russian's use
of vulgarity. For instance, the Russian's classify their 'dirty' words
into two categories. A lesser, which contains scatological terms,
and a more serious group. This harsher category is known as "mat" and
contains numerous references to the mother and the sexual organs of
both male and female. Dr. Ivanits, also mentioned that when a Russian
is truly angered or frustrated with another, he/she can manage to string
together about ten minutes of such "mat" insults. She told me a story,
where a young man boarded a bus, and feeling ill, desired to sit in the
section reserved for older people or pregnant women. When he discovered
that the section was occupied by a women bearing a child, he asked her
if she would surrender her seat. When she refused, he became irate and
began screaming obscenities at the woman. Not a single person on the
bus was fazed and noone said a thing to the young man.
So, it would seem that the Russians are more carefree in their use
of vulgarity. In fact, another professor in the Russian department
(whose anonymity is being preserved) has compiled a sizeable volume
of Russian 'swear' words. In addition to his collection of vulgarities
he also mentioned that the Russian's also have many more obscene hand
gestures than the Americans. He, like Dr. Ivanits, seems to think that
the Russian's are far ahead of us Americans at the insult game. Perhaps
in this age of glasnost, some of this will rub off on us.
--Todd Castilow TSC103
Victor Leo Sachs
>In my various wandering through the internet I ran into this. [NRD]
>
>
> In the Soviet Union, and in particular Russia, the use of vulgarity
>and profanity is widespread. In this culture 'swearing' is perhaps
>even more popular than in America. Dr. Linda Ivanits, professor of
>Russian and Slavic languages at Penn State, says that there is
>really no comparison for the swearing done in the Soviet Republics.
Well. Talk about things that make you go hmmm... My mind right now is
building 10-level constructions from the diverse variety of Russian curses,
all addressed to Todd Castilow, thus substantiating his remark about the
strength of Russian unprintables. But believe me -- and I think all Russian
readers of this newsgroup will agree -- the fact that some Russian phrases
can make American dockers blush like schoolgirls doesn't mean that such phrases
are used carefree and are publicly accepted.
"Mat", the serious curse words, are indeed used a lot, and actually
some people use words "blia" (short for bliad', "mat" word for a hooker)
the way American kids use "like", inserting it wherever they can and doing
so absolutely automatically, not realizing they are making an innocent
phrase obscene. Curses are often appended to regular words, enlivening
them and adding new dimensions to their meaning.
Now I sound like an advocate to obscenity, and I do believe
that there are occasions when anything other than a good strong
curse just fails to get the message across. But what really irks me
in the above article is the awful generalisation about Russians being
tolerant of insulting language and rude behavior. The story about the
"nice" guy on the bus and subsequent lack of reaction from the others sounds
like, pardon my Russian, complete BS. I _know_, and hope you agree,
that Russians are extremely sensitive to dirty language in public places,
especially in presence of women. A dirty-mouthed bastard like the one
described above would be kicked off the bus faster than he could say, well,
[censored] ( unless this bastard had Arnold's looks and presented the imme-
diate danger of termination to anybody interfering. :-).
Speaking of women ( and some people will find this sexist), using
bad language in female presence is complete taboo. Nothing can end a date
faster than a casually dropped curse, unless it is a part of a joke and
doesn't come as a surprise to the lady in question. (Of course, I am talking
about *nice* girls -- there are always exceptions). This is where Ame-
ricans can learn from Russians -- a-to-z-words used by ladies and
gentlemen in the good ole US of A usually come as a surprise to Russians
who acquaint themselves with American culture. ;-)
Yep, I have to admit that language used by ,say, Soviet college
students ( of the same gender! ) when they talk, is _very_ different
from that of Dostoevskiy; but how many of you have seen Russian fiction
stories or movies with bad words in them? And don't just write it off as
censorship requirements!
I would like to hear your comments, fellow newsreaders.
Victor Sachs *
Washington University * ** Soviet Students In America, **
St.Louis, Mo * UNITE!
e-mail: vl...@cec1.wustl.edu *
kenton yee
>contains numerous references to the mother and the sexual organs of
>both male and female. Dr. Ivanits, also mentioned that when a Russian
>is truly angered or frustrated with another, he/she can manage to string
>together about ten minutes of such "mat" insults.
>gestures than the Americans. He, like Dr. Ivanits, seems to think that
>the Russian's are far ahead of us Americans at the insult game.
how 'bout ethnic and racial putdowns?
Michael Rabinovich
I agree completely with this comment. Although the "dirty" words
in russian are dirtier than in American, they are used much more
carefully. Actually, it took me awhile to get used to phrases like
"Do not screw up on the test!" said by college girls in the most
casual manner. In fact, this kind of language is considered nothing
more than informal, and can be run across in a seminar talk,
or even in technical literature!
Now, there are circles in Russia where very casual usage of swearings
is common, but these circles definitely do not intersect with
intelectuals, educated or well-mannered people.
Misha.
nathan
agly words as offen as some people can imagine. The level of
education is important in this case and I am sure that
among low-level educated American people you will find tha they
use sleng more offen that it is really nessesary. For example,
you will find words SHIT and FUCK (I am not sure in spelling)
all around movies, books etc. In fact, problem of "mat" is inte-
resting form linquistical point of view - many of these words
came from the time when Russia was under tatars many centures
ago and have tatar origin. More of that, in some areas of Russia,
let say in the North part those words, at least some of them
are considered as normal words, but words, which we consider as
normal, assumed as "mat" there. One another point. Here, in Israel
I see that people who don't know Russian at all, use Russian
mat even without understanding the exact meaning, just to enforce
the message, to express strong emotions. It means that in par-
ticular situations people need smth strong to express themselves
better and more clear, but I always think, that it is indicate
that this kind of people don't know their own language good
enough to find the proper word for their emotions.
Nathan, LIB...@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL
Dmitry V. Volodin
>In article <1991Sep15.0...@wuecl.wustl.edu> vl...@cec1.wustl.edu (Victor Leo Sachs) writes:
>>In article <910914193...@redwood22.cray.com> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SC...@indycms.bitnet> writes:
>>>In my various wandering through the internet I ran into this. [NRD]
>>>
>>>[ deleted ]
[in fact it is not Misha Rabinovich himself, but he happily duplicates
previous messages. Misha, don't you know that you system has a text editor?]
>Now, there are circles in Russia where very casual usage of swearings
>is common, but these circles definitely do not intersect with
>intelectuals, educated or well-mannered people.
Of course, there are circles, where they cannot hear any "mat" words at all.
Usually these people consider themselves as highly moral and the Culture
Bearers. Usually they are the same people who strictly follow all taboos
of the Soviet society. Really "intellectual, educated or [is it exclusive or
or what? :-)] well-mannered" people just feel when it is appropriate to
use the words. And of course, they don't use the precious gems of "mat"
in the "punctuation mark"-style, as they are used by the "lower classes"
(lokhi, urlo - for you, slang lovers).
A couple of observations on the theme:
I always thought, that the art of "mat" is a popular ("narodnoje")
art, until I discovered, how dull and unimaginative it is when
used by "rabochimi i kolkhoznikami". Most fantastic "mat" one
can ever hear is produced by "nechestnye" (i.e. the businesspeople
of the Black Market) and real itellectuals.
Another observation from one of my rare trips outside of Moscow:
"mat" is used in much more casual manner in Latvia. One can hear
it in many more inappropriate situations, than in Moscow. E.g.
a taxi driver don't mind to shout something really nasty to his
fellow-driver regardless of whether there are women in his own car.
Vot takaya poyeben'. :-)
>Misha.
--
Dima
Oleg Vishnepolsky
>... [tons of text deleted]
> Now, there are circles in Russia where very casual usage of swearings
> is common, but these circles definitely do not intersect with
> intelectuals, educated or well-mannered people.
You sound like you are trying to defend intelligentsia at the expense of
the rest of people. There is nothing to defend from. Use of "mat" is very
well justified if you have to live in a state of bullshit (pardon
my French, please).
The first word I heard when I first entered MIFI's dormitory was "pizdets",
and I must confess that not only that did not shock my ear, but I used
this kind of language myself rather heavily while in school and after.
"Mat" is a natural reaction of an organism to harsh conditions it has to
live in. A lot of those well-mannered people that you mention often times
were conformists with the regime. An honest man should not be able to
characterize the communist regime or the state of affairs it has been
inducing without some colorful epithet.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
My employer may disagree.
A Kashko
>all around movies, books etc. In fact, problem of "mat" is inte-
>resting form linquistical point of view - many of these words
>came from the time when Russia was under tatars many centures
>ago and have tatar origin. More of that, in some areas of Russia,
That is interesting: Could you give references please?
>let say in the North part those words, at least some of them
>are considered as normal words, but words, which we consider as
>normal, assumed as "mat" there. One another point. Here, in Israel
This too is interesting. It is however normal in any large
country.
I have long thaught that any foreigh language course should
include a study of profanity: not out of any sort of
"voyeurism", but on practical grounds. One wants to know what not to
say, and which words are unacceptable in certain levels of society.
One wants to be able to identify trouble before it starts,
and being able to recognise and understand profanity is a help.
And when one does want to swear in the language it is nice to be able to
do so properly, at the right intensity level.
Unfortunately most language courses pretend swearing does not exist.
It is a part of language and life and needs to be tackled by the student.
People get killed over insults, and language teachers pretend they never happen.
serg%...@gargoyle.uchicago.edu
Oleg Vishnepolsky
> ...
> ...She told me a story,
> where a young man boarded a bus, and feeling ill, desired to sit in the
> section reserved for older people or pregnant women. When he discovered
> that the section was occupied by a women bearing a child, he asked her
> if she would surrender her seat. When she refused, he became irate and
> began screaming obscenities at the woman. Not a single person on the
> bus was fazed and noone said a thing to the young man.
> --Todd Castilow TSC103
A story like that is a lot more likely to happen in New York subway.
This story is a poisonous garbage and should be regarded as such by
this community.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Michael Rabinovich
>mi...@cs.washington.edu (Michael Rabinovich) writes:
>>... [tons of text deleted]
>> Now, there are circles in Russia where very casual usage of swearings
>> is common, but these circles definitely do not intersect with
>> intelectuals, educated or well-mannered people.
>>... [tons of text deleted]
>
>You sound like you are trying to defend intelligentsia at the expense of
>the rest of people. There is nothing to defend from. Use of "mat" is very
>well justified if you have to live in a state of bullshit (pardon
>my French, please).
While I agree that my statement above does sound too strong, I cannot agree
that living in a "state of bullshit" causes people to swear more. In fact,
I observed that ex-Soviets living here tend to use swearings more. My
explanation is that they know they cannot be understood by passers-by and
thus feel "safer". In any case, this observation, if correct, contradicts
with your point.
>The first word I heard when I first entered MIFI's dormitory was "pizdets",
This tells something about MIFI and the state of science in general in
the USSR. All too often, people were able to enter good schools or establish
themselves in the scientific nomenclature not because of there
intellectual abilities but because of mighty relatives or good record
in communist books. This also partially explains the pittiful current state of
science in the USSR.
>and I must confess that not only that did not shock my ear, but I used
>this kind of language myself rather heavily while in school and after.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Most teenagers go through times when they use mat "rather heavily"
among themselves. I guess they associate it with being adults. In most
cases though this goes away pretty fast, usually when they start dating
girls. Using mat rather heavily after graduating from university is a
differnet matter. Probably, you were not lucky enough to find the
circles that would appreciate good manners in people.
>"Mat" is a natural reaction of an organism to harsh conditions it has to
>live in. A lot of those well-mannered people that you mention often times
>were conformists with the regime.
What do you mean by conformists? People who were part of the regime
nomenclature, or people who agreed with the regime, or
people who did not fight with the regime? I do not have much knowlegde about
the first two categories as none of people I spent time with were among them.
As to the third category, too broad class of people falls into it to be
any indicative in our argument. I also had a good fortune to know
quite a few people who actively opposed the regime, and I cannot recall that
they used mat. (the fact that those people were *Jewish* activists
should not weaken my argument because they were definitely products of
Russian culture).
> An honest man should not be able to
>characterize the communist regime or the state of affairs it has been
>inducing without some colorful epithet.
But an educated and/or intellectual man should be able to find colourful
epithet without using mat.
>
>Oleg Vishnepolsky
To conclude, I am not saying that mat is an absolute taboo among well-
mannered people. It may be fine in some anecdote, or in other VERY SPECIAL
case. Someone mentioned Burkov and Pushkin. I also knew one guy who used mat
freely as a matter of principle (he believed that it was legitimate part
of language being discriminated by snobs). All I am saying is that it is
not correct that Russians use mat less carefully than American. In fact,
it is just the opposite.
Misha.
John E. Beebe
When I studied for a few months in the Soviet Union, I was surprised to
find that a majority of the grafitti, especially on the grounds of and
around Leningrad State University, were in ENGLISH! I have a friend
there who is approx. 16, and who studies English in High School; one
day during a conversation with him, he was extremely interested in
learning English curses. I obliged in teaching him some, and found in
somewhat difficult to come up with the Russian translation so he would
understand the curse, and then to teach him how to use the curse
properly.
On a similar note, the American professor leading my Foreign Study
Program (through CIEE), told the tale of how during the first time my
college participated in the program (in the '60s), some students were
very interested in learning Russian curses, and kept little notebooks
in which to write these down. One day, on an outing, a students lost
one of these notebooks, and it was returned to him by a rather upset
babushka.
---
"Just my 2 cents."
John Beebe (john....@dartmouth.edu)
Dartmouth College, NH
Oleg Kiselev
>Actually, it took me awhile to get used to phrases like
>"Do not screw up on the test!" said by college girls in the most
>casual manner. In fact, this kind of language is considered nothing
>more than informal, and can be run across in a seminar talk,
>or even in technical literature!
This is extremely misleadding. The state of profanity in the Russian-speaking
USSR was about the same as it is in the "polite South" on US. Everyone knows
it, women are not suppose to use it except in bed with a lover, men are not
supposed to use it in front of women or in "polite company". Otherwise,
"mat" is used as heavily among the people as it is in US among the
construction workers.
In fact, when I was a kid in USSR my language was far more "impolite" than
when I was a construction worker in US.
>Now, there are circles in Russia where very casual usage of swearings
>is common, but these circles definitely do not intersect with
>intelectuals, educated or well-mannered people.
This is again extremely misleading. Track down an educated, well-mannered
intellectual with a 1/2 litre of vodka and a couple of friends and you
will hear the entire broad spectrum of the high-octane stream of obscenities.
--
Oleg Kiselev ol...@veritas.com
VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg
(408)727-1222x586
Oleg Vishnepolsky
> In article <1991Sep16....@watson.ibm.com> ol...@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
> >The first word I heard when I first entered MIFI's dormitory was "pizdets",
>
> This tells something about MIFI and the state of science in general in
> the USSR.
No, it does not. You are being "chistoplyui".
> >and I must confess that not only that did not shock my ear, but I used
> >this kind of language myself rather heavily while in school and after.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Most teenagers go through times when they use mat "rather heavily"
> among themselves. I guess they associate it with being adults. In most
> cases though this goes away pretty fast, usually when they start dating
> girls. Using mat rather heavily after graduating from university is a
> differnet matter. Probably, you were not lucky enough to find the
> circles that would appreciate good manners in people.
No, it had more to with the fact that my family was persecuted by KGB, if it
interests you.
> I also had a good fortune to know
> quite a few people who actively opposed the regime, and I cannot recall that
> they used mat. (the fact that those people were *Jewish* activists
> should not weaken my argument because they were definitely products of
> Russian culture).
Any names ? The dissidents I met were using the mat "rather heavily".
I must admit the dissidents I have met were "ethnic" Russians.
>
> > An honest man should not be able to
> >characterize the communist regime or the state of affairs it has been
> >inducing without some colorful epithet.
>
> But an educated and/or intellectual man should be able to find colourful
> epithet without using mat.
No, Misha. Mat is the only way that describes the communism with the right
connotations.
To answer your question about conformism, anyone who lets oneself to be
fed bullshit and says 'thank you' is a conformist.
I personally was fed up with those "well-mannered" people who had "figa"
in their pockets, but voted "for" ("Yes, communism is bad, but we have
to live here") - instead of sending communist straight where they belong -
"na hui".
I suspect that the 20th century will be called the century of conformism
(with those nice Soviet and German "well-mannered" people who let 100 mils
of people die).
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Olga V Fishman
<deleted>
>This is extremely misleadding. The state of profanity in the Russian-speaking
>USSR was about the same as it is in the "polite South" on US. Everyone knows
>it, women are not suppose to use it except in bed with a lover, men are not
~~""""""""""""
>supposed to use it in front of women or in "polite company". Otherwise,
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I think that some russian immigrants already start forgetting it.
:-( :-( :-(
>>Now, there are circles in Russia where very casual usage of swearings
>>is common, but these circles definitely do not intersect with
??? are you sure?
Then some people on this newsgroup are not intellectuals, educated, or
well-mannered, (which I doubt )
>Oleg Kiselev ol...@veritas.com
>VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg
>(408)727-1222x586
Olga, (who also wanted to post a poem, but then decided it would be
considered kids' stuff compare to the other poems. :-( So instead she
decided to be insulted. :-(
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski
> ... ...
>Olga, (who also wanted to post a poem, but then decided it would be
>considered kids' stuff compare to the other poems. :-( So instead she
>decided to be insulted. :-(
Would you, could you, please, change your mind again?
Wlodek
Olga V Fishman
> Wlodek
NO! :-(
especially concidering a fact that most of u aren't impressed with
russian girls( which I personally fail to comprehend) :-(
and the chastushki-posting started as a result of that
Very much impressed with herself OLGA
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski
A request
---------
Enough of restrooms! (and powder rooms ?)
We need some fresh air in this group
We want Olga & Michelle
To post poetry
Some old fashioned cliches
We know Olga a bit
But who's the other lady?
Why,
I don't give ... er ... er ... a dime
"Michelle" is just to rhyme
Help Olga, you're the master
This poem is already a disaster
Wlodek,
1991-09-21
Olga V Fishman
o
S> Stihi pisat' ty vizhu master,
menya uvy eto zadelo!
Seichas voz'mu ya svoi flomaster
I bystren'ko primus' za delo:
The following I heared form my friends:
1. Tri girlicy pod windom
speakli pozno eveninkom:
"Kaby ya byla kingica" -
Speakaet odna girlica,-
"ya b dlya fathera kinga
makanula childrenka!"
1991-09-21
2. Myenya milyi ne celuet:
Govorit: "Potom, Potom..."
Prihozhu, a on na pechke
Treniruetsya s kotom
3. Odnazhdy v studienuu zimnuu poru
Sizhu za reshietkoi v temnice syroi
Glyazhy, podnimaetcya medlenno v goru
Vskormlennyi v nevolye orel molodoi.
I shevstvuya vazhno v spokoistvii chinnom
Moi grustnyi tovarisch mahaya krylom
V bol'shih sapogah, v polushubke ovchinnom
krovavuu pischu zhuet pod oknom.
Olga
Leonid Libkin
>3. Odnazhdy v studienuu zimnuu poru
> Sizhu za reshietkoi v temnice syroi
> Glyazhy, podnimaetcya medlenno v goru
> Vskormlennyi v nevolye orel molodoi.
How about this:
Odnazhdy v studenuu zimnuu poru
Splotilas' na veki velikaja Rus',
Glyazhy, podnimaetsya medlenno v goru
Velikij moguchij sovetskij soyuz.
Well, I am not sure "velikij" is used twice. Anyway, I had enough time
to forget it.
> I shevstvuya vazhno v spokoistvii chinnom
> Moi grustnyi tovarisch mahaya krylom
> V bol'shih sapogah, v polushubke ovchinnom
> krovavuu pischu zhuet pod oknom.
I shevstvuja vazhno v spokoistvii chinnom
Lenin velikij nam put' ozaril,
V bol'shikh sapogakh, v polushubke ovchinnom
Na trud i na podvigi nas vdohnovil.
>
>Olga
00r0ma...@bsu-ucs.uucp
I have been to Soviet Union for six years from 1982 to 1988 and I have not
found anything like Victor said - that the person will be kicked out of the
bus.. Normally people don`t want to interfere in such cases...
But the one thing, there is no "mat" in russian films....
Gennady Feygin
> Sizhu za reshietkoi v temnice syroi
> Glyazhy, podnimaetcya medlenno v goru
> Vskormlennyi v nevolye orel molodoi.
> I shevstvuya vazhno v spokoistvii chinnom
> Moi grustnyi tovarisch mahaya krylom
> V bol'shih sapogah, v polushubke ovchinnom
> krovavuu pischu zhuet pod oknom.
>
>Olga
Me and my cousin once decided to put misic from Soviet patriotic songs to a
better use with different lirics.
Unfortunately we cannot reproduce music on the net just yet so readers will
have to perform a thought experiment:
a) Music from Vstavay, strana ogromnaya goes well with words from
V lesu rodilas' yelochka,
Internatzional (Vstavay, proklyat'yem zakleymyenniy) --- with word
from Proshchay, nemitaya rossiya.
The lines from Nekrasov from above should go well with Soviet anthem.
(This was also pointed out by another poster on the net).
Any other examples?
G.Feygin
Olga V Fishman
>Any other examples?
>G.Feygin
We did exactly the same with the first 2 songs.
However "vstavai proklyat'em zaklemennyi"
sound's much better if you sing it using the
melody of famous "Ya vam ne skazhu za vsu Odessu"
Pesnya:
Pod znamenem Marksizma
Marksizma-Leninizma
K pobedde Kommunizma
Nas partiya vedet
Predstv'te sebe, Predstav'te sebe
K pobede Kommunisma
Predstv'te sebe, Predstav'te sebe
Nas partiya vedet.
Olga
P.S. the one about nemytaya rossia is very good :-)
but i forgot the words of the poem :-(
A Kashko
>
>I have been to Soviet Union for six years from 1982 to 1988 and I have not
>found anything like Victor said - that the person will be kicked out of the
>bus.. Normally people don`t want to interfere in such cases...
The English are like that too
Srdjan Mitrovic
(Olga V Fishman) writes:
>especially concidering a fact that most of u aren't impressed with
>russian girls( which I personally fail to comprehend) :-(
Not correct for me, and maybe for most people who had been
lucky to meet Russians without Inturist shield.
On my recent short stay in Novosibirsk, Akademgorodok I was very
much impressed by the inner and the outer beauty of the Russian girls
and women. I can not talk for the Moscow girls, one friend from Moscow
said that those from Sibiria are more natural. Do not flame me
for that, but he might be right.
Summing it up I would like to share the following sentences of
Hubertus F. Jahn which appeared in the latest "Kursbuch". The topic
of this "Kursbuch" is Russia and is filled with excellent essays on
Russia by Russian and non-Russian authors. The catch is that it is
written in German:
"You can not say good-bye to Russia. You must break away, hoping
that your soul will follow sometime, but also risk that it stays
behind forever, protected by good friends."
Best regards,
Srdjan Mitrovic
Oleg Vishnepolsky
> ...
> Me and my cousin once decided to put misic from Soviet patriotic songs to a
> better use with different lirics.
>
> Unfortunately we cannot reproduce music on the net just yet so readers will
> have to perform a thought experiment:
>
> a) Music from Vstavay, strana ogromnaya goes well with words from
> V lesu rodilas' yelochka,
>
> Internatzional (Vstavay, proklyat'yem zakleymyenniy) --- with word
> from Proshchay, nemitaya rossiya.
>
> The lines from Nekrasov from above should go well with Soviet anthem.
> (This was also pointed out by another poster on the net).
>
> Any other examples?
>
> G.Feygin
>
Yes, "Leytenant izranennyi prohripel vpered" and "Na proklyatom ostrove" from
the movie "Brilliantovaya ruka". As far as a) it was well known in Moscow
around 74 - I heard it from several people.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Oleg Vishnepolsky
(Olga V Fishman) writes:
> >supposed to use it in front of women or in "polite company". Otherwise,
> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
> I think that some russian immigrants already start forgetting it.
> :-( :-( :-(
>
Olga, the subject of Russian profanities is a quite serious one,
because as you probably know, it is part of the culture under
discussion in this group.
Those who find the subject objectionable may easily skip
the articles in question (you can easily discriminate based on
the subject line).
And we are very impressed with Russian girls. Who said that
we are not ? So much so, that some of us even ventured into
poetry about them :-)
One of the Olegs
Oleg Vishnepolsky
>
> A request
> ---------
>
> Enough of restrooms! (and powder rooms ?)
> We need some fresh air in this group
> We want Olga & Michelle
> To post poetry
> Some old fashioned cliches
>
> We know Olga a bit
> But who's the other lady?
> Why,
> I don't give ... er ... er ... a dime
> "Michelle" is just to rhyme
>
> Help Olga, you're the master
> This poem is already a disaster
>
>
> Wlodek,
You are right. The only thing which comes to mind is:
Romantizm seichas ne v mode.
F... each other na komode.
See ? We definitely need some help.
We need some help
with rhymes and style,
and Olga is
ahead a mile.
Oleg
CROO...@ua1vm.bitnet
What do you meane "The E are like that too" ? You wanna watch you say
about us Brits -- smash your face in I will. (Just proving my point.)
Actualy it's more the French who ...
I'm both Fr & Brit. Best, d
From: % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % %
% David Crookall % Editor: Simulation & Gaming: An International %
% MA-TESOL Prgrm % Journal (Sage); Dir: Project IDEALS (FIPSE, DoE). %
% English/Morgan, Univ of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0244, USA. %
% Phones: 205-348-9494 (w), 205-752-0690 (h); (44) 305-889-352 (UK). %
% E-mail: crookall @ ua1vm.bitnet / ua1vm.ua.edu. Fax: 205-348-5298. %
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% % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % % %
Olga V Fishman
>Oleg
ROMANTISM - that's it! How did you found out?!
Ya deisvitel'no ochen' romanticheskaya devushka v
Duhe Turgeneva. Lublu berezki, osinki... chto eshe...
Nu hohloma u menya po vsemu domu visit.Da eshe konechno
lublu romanticheskie stihi Serezhki Esenina. I chego
eto ya uehala ottuda - sama ne znau. Pryamo dusha bolit.
Da... Stihi vot ochen' lublu romanticheskie i vezhlivyh rebyat.
Olga
Michael Rabinovich
>ROMANTISM - that's it! How did you found out?!
>Ya deisvitel'no ochen' romanticheskaya devushka v
>Duhe Turgeneva. Lublu berezki, osinki... chto eshe...
>Nu hohloma u menya po vsemu domu visit.Da eshe konechno
>lublu romanticheskie stihi Serezhki Esenina. I chego
>eto ya uehala ottuda - sama ne znau. Pryamo dusha bolit.
Olya, you probably left "ottuda" when you were a child. To make you feel
better, let me remind you what else you left behind. Your future son will
not be afraid to go to summer camp because the other guys will tease him
(Zhid, zhid, na verevochke drozhit!). He will not be bitten in the army.
You will not be afraid that your child will become interested in humanities,
because (s)he has a chance to get higher education in engineering only.
None of your loved ones will ever be humiliated at the personnel department
during job hunting ("You should understand, if it depended on me, I would
hire you this very minute. But... If you were at least Russian in papers,
even with your last name, I could try to do something. But... I am sorry")
So, it's a tradeoff. I also miss things you are missing. But I am very happy
that I am here. Also, this country has been influenced by the immigrants
in the past. With so many europeans coming, may be we can change it a little
to be more idealistic and less money-worshiping...
As to bereoski i osinki, this country still has quite a bit (in fact,
if things do not change, all forests here soon will be just bereoski i osinki).
Seriosly, just do not give in to "american life stile", and you can have
quite a bit of what you are missing: Forest outings, mushroom hunting,
poetry readings, theaters, hikes, tents with guitars (and without showers
within 10 miles, if you insist).
>Da... Stihi vot ochen' lublu romanticheskie i vezhlivyh rebyat.
>Olga
Ne veshai nos.
Misha.
Leonid Libkin
[stuff deleted]
>(Zhid, zhid, na verevochke drozhit!). He will not be bitten in the army.
^^^^^^
Perhaps you meant "beaten". Makes a difference, doesn't it?
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski
Olga forgets to add ":-)" :
>
>>>ROMANTISM - that's it! How did you found out?!
>>>Ya deisvitel'no ochen' romanticheskaya devushka v
>>>Duhe Turgeneva. Lublu berezki, osinki... chto eshe...
>>>Nu hohloma u menya po vsemu domu visit.Da eshe konechno
>>>lublu romanticheskie stihi Serezhki Esenina. I chego
>>>eto ya uehala ottuda - sama ne znau. Pryamo dusha bolit.
Michael Rabinovich worries serdechno:
>>Olya, ...
>> Seriosly, ...
Olya applies her newly acquired american psychological know-how:
>RELAX!!!
But not too much, because Misha, it already happened
and may happen again -- Olya:
> I ... wanted to be CYNICAl! <watch the tricky lower case "l"; wh>
Misha has a strong suggestion for Olga anyway:
>> ... just do not give in to "american life stile", and you can have
>> quite a bit of what you are missing: ...
>>
>> ... tents with guitars (and without showers
>> within 10 miles, ...).
Let me add Olga that while you might have hard time to hear
the mentioned guitars, you'll easily find those tents 'cos they smell
from a 100 miles away.
Yolki, yolki palki, i tisha
glubokaya uz slishkom Misha
romantichny. Inogda kak to
romantichneye rugatsa matom
Wlodek
PS. just another cent of silliness from sillicon valley.
Oleg Kiselev
>>> quite a bit of what you are missing: ...
Huh. And what, pray tell, is this "american life stile"? I doubt very
many of us live even remotely similar life styles. Personally, I had
always missed my friends, lovers and landscapes, not the life style.
--
Olga V Fishman
>In article <1991Sep24....@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ovf1...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Olga V Fishman) writes:
>>ROMANTISM - that's it! How did you found out?!
>>Ya deisvitel'no ochen' romanticheskaya devushka v
>>Duhe Turgeneva. Lublu berezki, osinki... chto eshe...
>>Nu hohloma u menya po vsemu domu visit.Da eshe konechno
>>lublu romanticheskie stihi Serezhki Esenina. I chego
>>eto ya uehala ottuda - sama ne znau. Pryamo dusha bolit.
>Olya, you probably left "ottuda" when you were a child. To make you feel
Nope, I left 4 years ago. I was 17
>better, let me remind you what else you left behind. Your future son will
>not be afraid to go to summer camp because the other guys will tease him
>(Zhid, zhid, na verevochke drozhit!). He will not be bitten in the army.
RELAX!!! Can't u anderstand a joke. I was being SARCASTIC.
I really hope everyone else realized it. :-)
I totally understand your feelings, and myself feel the same way.
I just didn't like Oleg calling me Romantic and wanted to be CYNICAl!
>You will not be afraid that your child will become interested in humanities,
>because (s)he has a chance to get higher education in engineering only.
>None of your loved ones will ever be humiliated at the personnel department
>during job hunting ("You should understand, if it depended on me, I would
>hire you this very minute. But... If you were at least Russian in papers,
>even with your last name, I could try to do something. But... I am sorry")
NO, I am 100% Jewish. And was Jewish on papers. ;-) (proud)
>So, it's a tradeoff. I also miss things you are missing. But I am very happy
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that I am here. Also, this country has been influenced by the immigrants
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ME TOO!
>in the past. With so many europeans coming, may be we can change it a little
>to be more idealistic and less money-worshiping...
I REALLY hope so too
>As to bereoski i osinki, this country still has quite a bit (in fact,
>if things do not change, all forests here soon will be just bereoski i osinki).
>Seriosly, just do not give in to "american life stile", and you can have
>quite a bit of what you are missing: Forest outings, mushroom hunting,
>poetry readings, theaters, hikes, tents with guitars (and without showers
>within 10 miles, if you insist).
>>Da... Stihi vot ochen' lublu romanticheskie i vezhlivyh rebyat.
>>Olga
>Ne veshai nos.
>Misha.
I am sorry You misudertood me, but I am really glad you posted this
because Some people in this newsgroup might be needing such info.
Olga
:-)
INFIDEL
Snow, snow, all the world over
Snow to the world's end swirling,
A candle was burning on the table,
A candle burning.
As bugs swarming in summer
Fly to the candle flame,
The snowflakes swarming outside
Flew at the window frame.
The blizzard etched on the window
Frosty patterning.
A candle was burning on the table,
A candle burning.
The lighted ceiling carried
A shadowy frieze:
Entwining hands, entwining feet,
Entwining destinies.
And two little shoes dropped,
Plonk caboom from the mattress.
And candle wax like tears dropped
On an empty dress.
And all was lost in a tunnel
Of grey snow churning.
A candle was burning on the table,
A candle burning.
And when a draught flattened the flame,
Temptation blazed
And like a fiery angel raised
Two cross-shaped wings.
All February the snow fell
And sometimes till morning
A candle was burning on the table,
A candle burning.
B. Pasternak 1948
Gennady Feygin
>In article <1991Sep24.1...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, mi...@cs.washington.edu (Michael Rabinovich) writes:
>> In article <1991Sep24....@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ovf1...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Olga V Fishman) writes:
>>
>
>> None of your loved ones will ever be humiliated ............................
>
>Oh yea-a-a-a-a-a-a... ????!!!!
>
>Never say ever/never. Too strong.
>I've been here for little more than 2 years (not long , huh?),
>but have already ran into some antisemitic stuff.
>
>I recall that interview with INS in Rome, when the officer
>said "This country [U.S.] is no paradise" That was the first
>smart government worker I ever met. Have not seen much of those
>afterwards. :-)
We can deduce from above that smart government workers are exiled abroad.
8>(()
G.Feygin
[Standard Disclaimer]
Oleg Vishnepolsky
> I really hope everyone else realized it. :-)
> I totally understand your feelings, and myself feel the same way.
> I just didn't like Oleg calling me Romantic and wanted to be CYNICAl!
> Olga
> :-)
>
You are right - sometimes you have to forewarn that what you
say here is a joke, othwerwise you run a risk of being flamed or
simply misunderstood. Something like "Vnimanie - shuchu:".
Vnimanie - shuchu:
Mine was a general observation rather an attempt to attach romantism
to you. If you got a different impression, you are mistaken.
Very romantic Oleg
Olga V Fishman
> Olga forgets to add ":-)" :
>>
>>>>ROMANTISM - that's it! How did you found out?!
>>>>Ya deisvitel'no ochen' romanticheskaya devushka v
>>>>Duhe Turgeneva. Lublu berezki, osinki... chto eshe...
>>>>Nu hohloma u menya po vsemu domu visit.Da eshe konechno
>>>>lublu romanticheskie stihi Serezhki Esenina. I chego
>>>>eto ya uehala ottuda - sama ne znau. Pryamo dusha bolit.
> Michael Rabinovich worries serdechno:
>>>Olya, ...
>>> Seriosly, ...
> Olya applies her newly acquired american psychological know-how:
>>RELAX!!!
> But not too much, because Misha, it already happened
> and may happen again -- Olya:
And Wlodek should become sports commentator.
>> I ... wanted to be CYNICAl! <watch the tricky lower case "l"; wh>
> Misha has a strong suggestion for Olga anyway:
>>> ... just do not give in to "american life stile", and you can have
>>> quite a bit of what you are missing: ...
>>>
>>> ... tents with guitars (and without showers
>>> within 10 miles, ...).
>Let me add Olga that while you might have hard time to hear
>the mentioned guitars, you'll easily find those tents 'cos they smell
>from a 100 miles away.
>
>
Not only I will have hard time hearing mentioned gutars, but it's
also pretty hard to find a forest here near our campus. And the
weather is almost never really nice for an outing in a forest.
:-(
Corn fields don"t smell very good either. :-(
OLGA
Vadim M. Sapiro
> None of your loved ones will ever be humiliated ............................
Oh yea-a-a-a-a-a-a... ????!!!!
Never say ever/never. Too strong.
I've been here for little more than 2 years (not long , huh?),
but have already ran into some antisemitic stuff.
I recall that interview with INS in Rome, when the officer
said "This country [U.S.] is no paradise" That was the first
smart government worker I ever met. Have not seen much of those
afterwards. :-)
--
| vm...@eng.umd.edu | ...Brain fried -- |
| (Vadim M. Sapiro) | Core dumped... |
% scan for << "Arnold Schwarzenegger"^J^D
"Arnold Schwarzenegger": << terminator not found.
Sergej Roytman
In article <1991Sep25.1...@eng.umd.edu>, vm...@eng.umd.edu (Vadim M. Sapiro) writes:
> In article <1991Sep24.1...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, mi...@cs.washington.edu (Michael Rabinovich) writes:
> > In article <1991Sep24....@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ovf1...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Olga V Fishman) writes:
> > None of your loved ones will ever be humiliated ............................
> Oh yea-a-a-a-a-a-a... ????!!!!
>
> Never say ever/never. Too strong.
> I've been here for little more than 2 years (not long , huh?),
> but have already ran into some antisemitic stuff.
I've been here somewhat longer (say, fifteen years), and I have run
into some weird types, of course. The difference seems to be that
Americans are not as casually antisemitic as Russians. In my experi-
ence, antisemitism is more anomolous than expected. This is signifi-
cant. Not everyone around here likes everyone else, of course, but
I've never run into any serious problems of this sort -- and if do,
I can expect the government to be on _my_ side!
> I recall that interview with INS in Rome, when the officer
> said "This country [U.S.] is no paradise" That was the first
> smart government worker I ever met. Have not seen much of those
> afterwards. :-)
They changed the job specs. :-)
> --
>
> | vm...@eng.umd.edu | ...Brain fried -- |
> | (Vadim M. Sapiro) | Core dumped... |
> % scan for << "Arnold Schwarzenegger"^J^D
> "Arnold Schwarzenegger": << terminator not found.
>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| ft...@engin.umich.edu | "... a stainless steel rat in the |
| (Sergej Roytman) | ferroconcrete wainscoting of Internet" |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Death to four-line .sigs!
Oleg Kiselev
>weather is almost never really nice for an outing in a forest.
Move to California, then. Transfer to UC Santa Cruz and enjoy the sun, the
ocean, the redwoods and forested, beautiful mountains with hundreds of square
miles of national parks. And the SillyCone Valley is just over the hill.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Ot Moskvy do samykh do okrain,
S Yuzhnykh gor do severnykh morey
Chelovek prokhodit kak khozyain
... Esli on, konechno, ne evrey.
Oleg
Galina Kofman
Would you two rather be alone at this tender moment? :-)
Asya Kamsky
>In article <1991Sep24.1...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, mi...@cs.washington.edu (Michael Rabinovich) writes:
>> None of your loved ones will ever be humiliated ............................
>
>Oh yea-a-a-a-a-a-a... ????!!!!
>
>Never say ever/never. Too strong.
>I've been here for little more than 2 years (not long , huh?),
>but have already ran into some antisemitic stuff.
But Michael is not talking about isolated incidents. He's talking about
official, institutionalised racism, the likes of which this country hasn't
seen for a few decades. I am not "humiliated" by some idiot's comments,
but I imagine I would be terrified of "pogrom"s and the like. Not to
mention the fact that I was able to go to a university here, get the
education I wanted, and get the job I wanted (or not wanted :-) ).
This country not a paradise? No one said it would be. But it's not hell either.
--
"She's making movies on location she don't know what it means"
Asya Kamsky e-mail: as...@ux5.lbl.gov Go Red Sox
(510)486-7428 other: Lawrence Berkeley Labs, 50/232 "no fate"
Olga V Fishman
I think that the Oleg's purpose in this case was not to invite me
to California, but instead to make me feel even worse, by describing
just what exactly I am missing in details.
He is a pretty sarcastic guy, even though tries to pretend to be
Romantic.
Olga
Gennady Feygin
>In article <1991Sep25.1...@eng.umd.edu> vm...@eng.umd.edu (Vadim M. Sapiro) writes:
>>In article <1991Sep24.1...@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, mi...@cs.washington.edu (Michael Rabinovich) writes:
>> [talking about life in the US vs the good ol' SU
>>> None of your loved ones will ever be humiliated ............................
>>
>>Oh yea-a-a-a-a-a-a... ????!!!!
>>
>>Never say ever/never. Too strong.
>>I've been here for little more than 2 years (not long , huh?),
>>but have already ran into some antisemitic stuff.
>
>But Michael is not talking about isolated incidents. He's talking about
>official, institutionalised racism, the likes of which this country hasn't
>seen for a few decades. I am not "humiliated" by some idiot's comments,
>but I imagine I would be terrified of "pogrom"s and the like. Not to
What happened in Crown Heights, was that not a pogrom? Hundreds of blacks
can kill Jews as well as the Black Hundred ("Tchornaya sotnya")!
>Asya Kamsky e-mail: as...@ux5.lbl.gov Go Red Sox
>(510)486-7428 other: Lawrence Berkeley Labs, 50/232 "no fate"
G. Feygin
[Standard Disclaimer]
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Olga, I knew this would happen sooner or later. You mistook Oleg Kiselev
for truly yours.
The other Oleg maybe as sarcastic as I am, but he never pretended to be
Romantic.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Sergei Nirenburg
>Me and my cousin once decided to put misic from Soviet patriotic songs to a
>better use with different lirics.
>Unfortunately we cannot reproduce music on the net just yet so readers will
>have to perform a thought experiment:
>
>a) Music from Vstavay, strana ogromnaya goes well with words from
>V lesu rodilas' yelochka,
>
>Internatzional (Vstavay, proklyat'yem zakleymyenniy) --- with word
>from Proshchay, nemitaya rossiya.
Well, my favorite is somewhat more refined, in the poetic sense, I mean.
It is Blok's
Ja pomnyu nezhnost' vashix plech.
Oni zastenchivy i chutki.
I laskoj prervannuju rech
Vdrug posle boltovni i shutki.
Etc.
This goes SPLENDIDLY to the tune of
Tam, gde pexota ne projdet,
Gde bronepoezd ne promchitsya,
Ugryumyj tank ne propolzyot,
Tam proletit stal'naya ptitsa.
>G.Feygin
Also -- by popular (well, almost popular) demand, some more chastushki and
such. Some are good. Some are not so. Sorry.
Ja lezhu s chuzhoj zhenoju
Sis'ki belye krutya.
To kak zver' ona zavoet,
To zaplachet, kak ditja.
Or another one from Igor Garik (an excerpt from the long poem "Obgusevshie
Lebedi")
Evrejskim zanjavshis' voprosom,
Potemkin, knyaz', ushel ot del.
Nauki brosiv, Lomonosov
Ekaterinu poimel.
Uchenyj, on boyalsya spleten
I tol'ko nochyu k nej xodil...
Starik Derzhavin ix zametil
I, v grob sxodja, blagoslovil.
=====================================
Shiroka strana moya rodnaya.
Gde ni plyun', to suka, to mudak.
Ya drugoj takoj strany ne znaju,
Gde tak.
And also,
Ot Moskvy do samyx do okrain,
S juzhnyx gor do severnyx morej
Chelovek proxodit, kak xozyain,
Esli on, konechno, ne evrej.
Za stolom nikto u nas ne Lifshits,
etc.
------
In general, old Soviet songs, which all of us "carry in our hearts since we
were in our cradle," naturally, are great fun when their lyrics are given a
second thought. I admit that I am partial to all of them because I used to
earn my living playing them in one of my previous lives. So, I remember a
lot of possibilities of different meanings, including
Iz otkrytyx okon shkoly
Slyshny kriki oktyabrjat
(like, what's going on there?!)
or
A bez menya, a bez menya
Zdes' nichego by ne stoyalo...
and, on a similar uplifting note,
Vzdymaya vvys' svoy apparat poslushnyj...
Anybody to continue in this vein?
Would be a pleasure, wouldn't it? Even without a real rendition...
Sergei
Elizabeth Schwartz
>>But Michael is not talking about isolated incidents. He's talking about
>>official, institutionalised racism, the likes of which this country hasn't
>
>can kill Jews as well as the Black Hundred ("Tchornaya sotnya")!
Nope, what happened in Crown Heights was a racial fight, between two somewhat
matched groups. The authorities tried to break it up. Although individual
members of the government might have had some personal sympathies,
the government didnt take sides. That's a bit different from a pogrom!
There is a lot of racism in America. But, you can usually avoid
it with some planning...a group which is discriminated against in
one neighborhood goes unnoticed in another. Not great, but at least
the government isnt legalizing it...a bit different than having "Jew"
or "Coloured" stamped on your passport...
--
Betsy Schwartz Internet: bet...@cs.umb.edu
System Administrator BITNET:ESCHWARTZ%UMBSK...@NS.UMB.EDU
U-Mass Boston Computer Science Dept.
Harbor Campus Boston, MA 02125-3393
Oleg Kiselev
>He is a pretty sarcastic guy, even though tries to pretend to be Romantic.
I resent that remark. As the other Oleg pointed out, he's the one who
pretends being "Romantic." I am an old, sarcastic realist.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
>But Michael is not talking about isolated incidents. He's talking about
>official, institutionalised racism, the likes of which this country hasn't
>but I imagine I would be terrified of "pogrom"s and the like.
>Asya Kamsky e-mail: as...@ux5.lbl.gov Go Red Sox
>(510)486-7428 other: Lawrence Berkeley Labs, 50/232 "no fate"
Regarding "institutionalized" anti-semitism:
Why do Jewish emigrants have to prove to the State Department run
INS that they are refugees ? Why Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany
were turned away by the same department (which knew very well
what was going on inside Germany) ? Sure, antisemitism here
is on the order of magnitude less than in the USSR.
But "never again" is too strong and can lead to dangerous
complacency.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
John C. Hyde
>
>Regarding "institutionalized" anti-semitism:
>Why do Jewish emigrants have to prove to the State Department run
>INS that they are refugees ?
Because it is (practically) the only way to be allowed to this country
(of course). But you already knew that. What you seem to ignore is
that, because Jewish emigrants DO have this option, they are able to
immigrate, PERIOD! Non-Jews simply have no opportunity to immigrate at
all. The laws do not discriminate, except that in the case of Jewish
would-be immigrants, a loophole is provided. If anything, that is
PRO-Jewish discrimination.
I realize that this statement is not Politically Correct (TM). The
correct viewpoint is to see Jews anywhere in the world as being a
persecuted minority, and to feel symathetic and reach for my wallet
(I'm being a bit sarcastic here, I realize).
I have no doubt that Jewish folks are discriminated against in the SU,
but I doubt that said persecution is any worse than what the blacks in
this country experience. I don't see that as sufficient reason to
grant them (or any similar group) special status.
>Why Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany were turned away by the same
>department (which knew very well what was going on inside Germany)?
I'd have to hear a lot more historical facts to be convinced that this
was due to antisemitism. I'd speculate that it was due more to
apathy, a disease which is rampant in this country.
We don't have any obligation (moral or otherwise) to accept as
immigrants the persecuted minorities from other countries.
--
John C. Hyde | "Only a brave person is willing honestly to admit,
| and fearlessly to face, what a sincere and
jh...@convex.com | logical mind discovers." -Rodan of Alexandria
Gennady Feygin
>In article <1991Sep30.1...@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> gfe...@eecg.toronto.edu (Gennady Feygin) writes:
>>>But Michael is not talking about isolated incidents. He's talking about
>>>official, institutionalised racism, the likes of which this country hasn't
>>
>>What happened in Crown Heights, was that not a pogrom? Hundreds of blacks
>>can kill Jews as well as the Black Hundred ("Tchornaya sotnya")!
>
>Nope, what happened in Crown Heights was a racial fight, between two somewhat
Why? Just because CNN said so? Dream on, Betsy.
A fight means two groups are fighting. When one group hits the other
without being hit in return it is no longer a fight, but a pogrom.
Sort of like armed robbery is NOT a "fight over money".
>matched groups. The authorities tried to break it up. Although individual
>members of the government might have had some personal sympathies,
>the government didnt take sides.
Government did not have to take sides. They knew that blacks have the
numeric advantage, and are willing to fight. They also know that Jews
(especially Hassidim) will not fight back. So they have an excellent
outlet for the black frustrations. This is in no way different from
what happened in Kishinev at the turn of the century. Oops one
little difference --- pogrom in Kishenev was condemned by just
about all American political and religious leaders.
> That's a bit different from a pogrom!
> There is a lot of racism in America. But, you can usually avoid
>it with some planning...a group which is discriminated against in
>one neighborhood goes unnoticed in another. Not great, but at least
>the government isnt legalizing it...a bit different than having "Jew"
yeah, as long as you do not wear kippah, do not go to sinagogue,
and hide your Jewishness at all times. Perhaps changing your name from
Schwarz to Black might help? Then again --- Hitler had no trouble
finding Jews - even in "racially integrated neihbourhoods".
>
>or "Coloured" stamped on your passport...
>
>--
>Betsy Schwartz Internet: bet...@cs.umb.edu
>System Administrator BITNET:ESCHWARTZ%UMBSK...@NS.UMB.EDU
>U-Mass Boston Computer Science Dept.
>Harbor Campus Boston, MA 02125-3393
G.Feygin
[Standard Disclaimer]
Daan Sandee
|> In article <1991Oct01.1...@watson.ibm.com> ol...@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
|> >
|> >Regarding "institutionalized" anti-semitism:
|> >Why do Jewish emigrants have to prove to the State Department run
|> >INS that they are refugees ?
|>
|> Because it is (practically) the only way to be allowed to this country
|> (of course). But you already knew that. What you seem to ignore is
|> that, because Jewish emigrants DO have this option, they are able to
|> immigrate, PERIOD! Non-Jews simply have no opportunity to immigrate at
|> all. The laws do not discriminate, except that in the case of Jewish
|> would-be immigrants, a loophole is provided. If anything, that is
|> PRO-Jewish discrimination.
Let me stick to the facts, and not bring into it the issue of whether Jews
ought to be allowed to immigrate or not.
*Anybody* can immigrate into the USA by one of several ways, all of which are
accessible to anybody regardless of religion, race, or ethnic background.
(Like myself, for instance. I'm not a Jew, yet I got in.)
*Anybody* can immigrate, for instance, when able to prove that he/she is
a political refugee.
This to refute your absolute statement above that non-Jews cannot immigrate,
"PERIOD".
Having established that, some further points :
1. Any immigrant claiming persecution has to prove that. If the State Dept
is assuming that any Soviet Jew may very well be a victim of persecution,
that is pro-Jewish discrimination, sure enough. But I don't know that the
State Dept so assumes. In any case, Oleg has no call to claim that Jews
are discriminated *against* in this issue.
2. It is ironic that the U.S. Govt has for 20 (50? 74? 100?) years been
pestering the Soviet Govt to allow Jews to emigrate, yet when they do
get out, the same U.S. Govt refuses to let them into the U.S. But I agree
with John that the U.S. Govt has a perfect right to write its own laws.
It's just that Jews in the Soviet Union, over the years, have been
wanting to go to the US, and then discovered after having put in a
request for emigration (and we know what *that* led to in the old SU),
that they might possibly get out but not into the U.S.
3. Finally, the Immigration Act (both the old and the new one) does provide
quotas for immigrants depending on country of origin. This is active
discrimination (mostly against Asians), but, again, the govt has the
right to do this. The 14th Amendment only applies to U.S. citizens - not
to potential immigrants. I'm not complaining - neither personally (though
I had to wait 18 months to get through the quota delay) nor as a citizen
of the world. It's just that the "Give me your tired, your poor" has been
out of date since 1922.
Daan Sandee san...@think.com
Thinking Machines Corporation
Cambridge, Mass 02142
Oleg Vishnepolsky
> In article <1991Oct01.1...@watson.ibm.com> ol...@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
> >
> >Regarding "institutionalized" anti-semitism:
> >Why do Jewish emigrants have to prove to the State Department run
> >INS that they are refugees ?
>
> Because it is (practically) the only way to be allowed to this country
> (of course). But you already knew that. What you seem to ignore is
> that, because Jewish emigrants DO have this option, they are able to
> immigrate, PERIOD! Non-Jews simply have no opportunity to immigrate at
> all. The laws do not discriminate, except that in the case of Jewish
> would-be immigrants, a loophole is provided. If anything, that is
> PRO-Jewish discrimination.
If it is PRO-Jewish discrimination, than it's to the USSR's credit.
>
> I realize that this statement is not Politically Correct (TM). The
> correct viewpoint is to see Jews anywhere in the world as being a
> persecuted minority, and to feel symathetic and reach for my wallet
> (I'm being a bit sarcastic here, I realize).
>
> I have no doubt that Jewish folks are discriminated against in the SU,
> but I doubt that said persecution is any worse than what the blacks in
> this country experience. I don't see that as sufficient reason to
> grant them (or any similar group) special status.
Refugee status is given to any person that has been persecuted in
his/her homeland for his/her political convictions or national
origin. Since anti-Semitism in the USSR is a given, why make
every applicant prove it ? If you argued that this is because of
the bureaucracy I would have harder time disproving that.
>
> >Why Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany were turned away by the same
> >department (which knew very well what was going on inside Germany)?
>
> I'd have to hear a lot more historical facts to be convinced that this
> was due to antisemitism. I'd speculate that it was due more to
> apathy, a disease which is rampant in this country.
So, you saying FDR and his men were in apathy at the time ?
Regardless of that, polls taken at that time showed wide-spread
prejudice towards Jews. If you interested, I can bring some numbers
next time.
>
> We don't have any obligation (moral or otherwise) to accept as
> immigrants the persecuted minorities from other countries.
>
On whose behalf are you speaking, John ?
> John C. Hyde | "Only a brave person is willing honestly to admit,
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Oleg Vishnepolsky
..
> Having established that, some further points :
> 1. Any immigrant claiming persecution has to prove that. If the State Dept
> is assuming that any Soviet Jew may very well be a victim of persecution,
> that is pro-Jewish discrimination, sure enough. But I don't know that the
> State Dept so assumes. In any case, Oleg has no call to claim that Jews
> are discriminated *against* in this issue.
I do not see any point in proving to you that ALL the Jews
in the USSR are victims of persecution. It is a very well documented fact.
You can look it up in a local library.
> 2. It is ironic that the U.S. Govt has for 20 (50? 74? 100?) years been
> pestering the Soviet Govt to allow Jews to emigrate, yet when they do
> get out, the same U.S. Govt refuses to let them into the U.S. But I agree
> with John that the U.S. Govt has a perfect right to write its own laws.
> It's just that Jews in the Soviet Union, over the years, have been
> wanting to go to the US, and then discovered after having put in a
> request for emigration (and we know what *that* led to in the old SU),
> that they might possibly get out but not into the U.S.
This has no bearing on what we are arguing about.
> 3. Finally, the Immigration Act (both the old and the new one) does provide
> quotas for immigrants depending on country of origin. This is active
> discrimination (mostly against Asians), but, again, the govt has the
> right to do this. The 14th Amendment only applies to U.S. citizens - not
> to potential immigrants. I'm not complaining - neither personally (though
> I had to wait 18 months to get through the quota delay) nor as a citizen
> of the world. It's just that the "Give me your tired, your poor" has been
> out of date since 1922.
Quotas always have been for immigrants, and not refugees.
> Daan Sandee san...@think.com
Oleg Vishnepolsky
Asya Kamsky
>In <.142324...@convex.com> John C. Hyde <jh...@convex.COM> writes:
>If it is PRO-Jewish discrimination, then it's to the USSR's credit.
>> I have no doubt that Jewish folks are discriminated against in the SU,
>> but I doubt that said persecution is any worse than what the blacks in
>> this country experience. I don't see that as sufficient reason to
>> grant them (or any similar group) special status.
>
>Refugee status is given to any person that has been persecuted in
>his/her homeland for his/her political convictions or national
>origin. Since anti-Semitism in the USSR is a given, why make
>every applicant prove it ? If you argued that this is because of
>the bureaucracy I would have harder time disproving that.
I don't know about now, but when my family emmigrated in 1977, we had
to prove persecution. Both my parents were extensively interviewed in
Vienna, where as I recall they had to explain why it was that life
was so hard, and what reasons they had for leaving. I seem to remember
that it wasn't too hard for them to show persecution. So where is the
special status?
>> We don't have any obligation (moral or otherwise) to accept as
>> immigrants the persecuted minorities from other countries.
>
>On whose behalf are you speaking, John ?
>
Well, certainly not on mine. As an American I'm pretty ashamed of
attitudes like the above existing in this country.
Give me your politically correct tired...
Sad, but true.
--
"She's making movies on location she don't know what it means"
Asya Kamsky e-mail: as...@ux5.lbl.gov Go Red Sox
seth.r.rosenthal
Oleg's examples here are a little stilted. Like it or not the republicans
have been playing politics with the Soviet Jews. Is this nice? No.
Is this cynical? Yes. Is this anti-semitic? I think not. Its the
uglier side of politics. When SU was the "evil empire" Soviet Jews
were a convenient tool for Reagan. When Gorbachev is a beacon of
light to the world, and the most popular politician in West Germany,
it is an embarassment to have a persecuted people still trying to get
out as if nothing is different. Its wrong and cynical but politics
not hatred of Jews. If anything more Jewish immigrants is perceived
as stimulating science and economy as it has in previous generations.
To understand turning refugees away, as horrible as the consequences
were you need to understand a bit more about the American world
view, and politics in that period.
Americans have always been very xenophobic about immigrants of all
sorts, Irish, Italian, Jewish, Latino,... You can see it today with
the attitudes towards Carribean blacks. Emma Lazarus (a German Jewess)
did not reflect the prevailing public views. They were also not willing
to believe the stories coming out of Europe until late in the war.
The stories coming from Stalin were being discredited as propaganda.
The boat that the Germans sent to Cuba that was turned away from the
states came before Pearl Harbor when the climate was highly isolationist
so taking sides was something that was seen as politically dangerous.
There were lots more Germans here marching for Hitler than there
were Jews here then. That added up to votes even for Roosevelt.
He had to be attacked first, then he could take sides.
Don't get me wrong, there is anti-semitism here, from some
surprising quarters. These are not the examples I would use.
The lynching of Leo Frank in Atlanta is a good example.
By the way do any of you know that during the aftermath
of the revolution here, Hebrew was proposed as the national
language, since this was seen as being the "New Israel"
the new promised land.
Seth Rosenthal
Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
..
> Why? Just because CNN said so? Dream on, Betsy.
> G.Feygin
Speaking of CNN. Several months ago I had an opportunity to listen
to the CNN's Special Assignment report on Israel-Arab tensions
in Israel (Gaza strip, I think). CNN took Arab's side, and went
into horrors of Israel occupation. The fact that Israelis actions
were in response to 4 Jewish women stabbed was not even mentioned.
All the interviews they showed were those taken from agitated Arabs.
I was of thinking a writing a letter to Mr Turner (the owner
of CNN, TBS, etc). I never did - for which I am sorry - costed
only 25 cents at the time.
Oleg Vishnepolsky
John C. Hyde
(Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>
>> We don't have any obligation (moral or otherwise) to accept as
>> immigrants the persecuted minorities from other countries.
>
>On whose behalf are you speaking, John ?
What makes you assume that I am speaking on anybody's behalf?
As an American citizen, I have the right to express my opinion on any
subject, and as a registered voter who does exercise that right, I
also feel that I have a right to express opinions regarding the
policies of our (my) government.
At the present time, I feel that our government's policies tend to
favor minorities to the disadvantage of the majority.
I would rather see our government accept the extremely gifted and
talented as first priority for immigration status, rather than
allowing "persecution" as the easiest way to allow others to come.
(Let me add that "gifted" could certainly include craftsmen, artists,
and so on, and needn't necessarily imply only the college-educated).
In this day and age, there will always be those who are "persecuted"
as the Jews are in Russia. As a taxpayer and a voter, it is not my
government's responsibility to be the orphanage to the misfits of the
world.
Groups in THIS country who are "persecuted" bravely and sometimes
tragically WIN the right to fair treatment.
--
John C. Hyde | "Only a brave person is willing honestly to admit,
Elizabeth Schwartz
>Government did not have to take sides. They knew that blacks have the
>numeric advantage, and are willing to fight. They also know that Jews
>(especially Hassidim) will not fight back. So they have an excellent
>outlet for the black frustrations. This is in no way different from
>what happened in Kishinev at the turn of the century. Oops one
>little difference --- pogrom in Kishenev was condemned by just
>about all American political and religious leaders.
saw Jews fighting in Skokie. The Jewish Defense League, for
example, is one organized group of Jewish fighters. As for
Hasidim, I have seen pictures of stone-throwing mobs of Hasidim
in Jerusalem. WIthout getting into the issue of who is right,
I sure don't see where you get the ideas that Jews won't fight!
Dale R. Shaver
>In article <1991Oct04.1...@watson.ibm.com> ol...@watson.ibm.com
>(Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>>
>>> We don't have any obligation (moral or otherwise) to accept as
>>> immigrants the persecuted minorities from other countries.
>>
>>On whose behalf are you speaking, John ?
>
>What makes you assume that I am speaking on anybody's behalf?
>
>as the Jews are in Russia. As a taxpayer and a voter, it is not my
>government's responsibility to be the orphanage to the misfits of the
>world.
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning
To be free..."
--
--
Dale Shaver, Technical Support Engineer Phone: (916) 928-6433, x 6218
Unify Corporation, Sacramento, California Fax: (916) 928-6403
d...@unify.Com or {{ucdavis,csun,lll-crg}!csusac,pyramid,sequent}!unify!dxs
Enrique Triep
> In article <1991Oct01.1...@watson.ibm.com> ol...@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
This discussion probably belongs in soc.sulture.jewish, so - "izvinite, ne-evrei i ne-sochuvstvuyuschie", but the following shouldn't go uncommented on.
> I have no doubt that Jewish folks are discriminated against in the SU,
> but I doubt that said persecution is any worse than what the blacks in
> this country experience. I don't see that as sufficient reason to
> grant them (or any similar group) special status.
Talking about black "persecution", I would recommend past tense in the above.
As to special statuses - aren't there things like minority-oriented scholarships, programs for women-scientists ( all examples drawn from academic life since i
know it best), affirmative action etc. How do you define a "special status"
and eligibility criteria?
As to analogies between blacks ( Hispanics, Indians, you-name-it) here and Jews
there - I somehow never heard about anything "affirmative" towards Soviet Jews
( with the exception of "student admittion quotas" in major Universities,
but those were of, say, negative nature).
And, listen, John Hyde, what's that "we don't have to admitt all you immigrants"
stuff? Who are "we"? Is the fact that your grandfather came here 100 years
earlier then mine giving you right to deside where I have to live?
>
>
> --
> John C. Hyde | "Only a brave person is willing honestly to admit,
> | and fearlessly to face, what a sincere and
> jh...@convex.com | logical mind discovers." -Rodan of Alexandria
Vadim Levin, Alien.
Igor Sheyn
>ROMANTISM - that's it! How did you found out?!
>Ya deisvitel'no ochen' romanticheskaya devushka v
>Duhe Turgeneva. Lublu berezki, osinki... chto eshe...
>Nu hohloma u menya po vsemu domu visit.Da eshe konechno
>lublu romanticheskie stihi Serezhki Esenina. I chego
>eto ya uehala ottuda - sama ne znau. Pryamo dusha bolit.
that I am here. Also, this country has been influenced by the immigrants
in the past. With so many europeans coming, may be we can change it a little
to be more idealistic and less money-worshiping...
>Olga
Ne veshai nos.
Ty zabyvaesh' chto America menyet lydey gorazdo v bol'shey stepeni chem lydi ee. Dostatochno posmotret'
na bol'shinstvo russkih here, in Boston. So dream on, but don't forget the reality.