!ONSLAUGHT ON OUR CHILDREN CONTINUES
Hein...@bellemodel.co.za
please read the following message from an ACDP Councillor;
It is important that people who care for the future of our children be
aware of what is being planned for them.
Subject: ACDP LETTER CONCERNING EDUCATION BILL
CURRICULUM 2005 - THE ONSLAUGHT ON OUR CHILDREN CONTINUES
INTRODUCTION
On 30th July 2001, the Education Department released the
new National Curriculum for comment. Responses and
comments must be in by 12 October. Very few teachers
have even heard about it, and hardly any consultation has
taken place with parents, children, churches and
communities.
The document consists of a whopping 1400 pages of
doublespeak and deliberately complicated language and
logic designed to confuse most of us amongst ambiguity
and flowery language.
A SCRIPTURAL THOUGHT
Scripture requires of us to "instruct our children in the ways
of the Lord and they will not depart from them."
What happens most of the time, is we simply instruct our
children in the knowledge of the Lord and hope for the
best.
There is a vast difference between knowledge and ways.
To raise your child in the ways of the Lord implies daily
practical instruction. Sunday school knowledge does not
fulfil this obligation.
Most Christian parents and institutions refrain from school
involvement as it seen as a government function and they
therefore "give unto Caesar".
Give your coins if you want to...they have Caesar's face on
them, but DO NOT give your children. They are created in
the image of God!
SOME DETAILS
I have listed below some of the issues of concern to
Christian parents and only from two modules, namely Life
Orientation and Social Sciences. Take note - ONLY
SOME!
Be aware that these are the essences on which your child
will be assessed to determine if he or she has acquired
sufficient "life skills" to function in the New World planned
for them.
LIFE ORIENTATION
Grade R Identify private parts of their body
This is a major success for the followers of Margaret
Sanger, a known "supreme race" adherent, a racist and
pro abortionist who many years back pushed for show and
tell sessions in primary schools so that children could
understand their "sexuality"
Identify symbols relating to AT LEAST three religions
other than their own.
This in itself might appear harmless, but watch the
progression to actual understanding and acceptance of
other religions
Grade 3
Describe the worship practices of AT LEAST three
other religions
Grade 4
Describe how nature can be a source of spiritual
health
Now we're getting there. One faith, one world. This is no
more than indoctrination into the whole Mother Earth God
philosophy and is blatant paganism.
Grade 4
Describe the value systems of AT LEAST Four
religions As well as festivals, rituals and customs
This technique has already been used well in America in
teaching children that all religions are the same because
we all believe in good things! Take note that the depth of
knowledge required of other languages progresses with
each grade.
Grade 6
Explain children's rights
UNESCO has long been pushing for an agenda of
children's rights, which clearly state that parental control in
the area of religion and sexual practices must be removed
and children be allowed freedom of choice from age 13.
The whole principle behind the "rights of children" is in
direct contrast with the responsibilities laid out Biblically.
Grade 6 - Learning Outcome 2
This is seen as a period when parental and family
influence is no longer of essence.
This is not my opinion. The C2005 documents clearly
indicate this!
Grade 7 - 9
Look at holistic and traditional healing.
Throwing bones, chanting mantra's and asking the Earth
Goddess for healing is as far from Christian faith as what
we can possibly go.
Discuss "life cycles".
As in when you come back in your next life would you like
to be a corrupt politician, or perhaps a grasshopper.
Perhaps here, I would like to make a point. Scripture
clearly says that we serve either God or satan. We need to
get our definition of "satanist" clearly sorted out in our
minds. Any study, of any faith, other than Christianity, is
the study of satanism.
Understand the basic human right of abortion.
This is grade 7 people! Heaven alone knows what they are
going to be teaching them in sex education if they need to
know this "right"
Understand how similar belief systems are.
Because then it doesn't matter which God you serve.
Assessment WILL be based on pre-determined criteria
and standards.
So much for tolerance and open mindedness! Guess who
will be setting these criteria? If you think Christians, please
give me a call. We need to talk :-)
Learner profiles will be kept on record as to their
holistic development of values and attitudes.
This has worked very well in previous mind manipulative
states such as the Soviet Union and China. Gotta keep
tabs on the rebels. No subsidies, no varsity entrance. Not
for Christian rebels!
SOCIAL SCIENCES
Promote a broader understanding of the concept
"family"
God is obviously incorrect on this issue and just plain old
bigoted for not taking into account homosexual
relationships and good old living together.
Encourage learners to understand that culture/religion
and identity are not fixed.
"For me to live is Christ" Our identity, who we are as
Christians, is intricately tied up in our faith and can never
be separated. This methodology has been used in other OBE
systems to separate the child's faith from that of the
parents.
Recognise that there can be more than one version of
history
eg. Maybe God did not create the world but indeed we
came from apes.
And a look at the recommendations for History
includes...
South Africa - no mention made of the impact of the
missionaries at all But a study of Egyptian religion
recommended. AS WELL as a study of the spread of
Islam, their education centres, trade etc. This in a
education system that supposedly wants to remove
religious education from schools. Perhaps Christianity, but
definitely not religion!
Discussion of Agenda 21
which promotes the evolution theory as well as abortion as
a means of keeping the world population within
controllable limits. For those of you out there that still feel
the world is over populated consider this... If God says
that children are a blessing, how can they ever be a
curse?
Grade 7
Archaeological evidence of evolution of man.
Take note of the subtle mixing of science and theory. No
evolutionist has ever proved his theories!
Understand that it was not only politics that vilified
Africa but also "imported" religion.
Christianity is one of these obvious filthy imports!
Studying the ideology of capitalism.
Hard work never killed anybody except Africa it seems :-)
Whatever could be the solution? Of course - Socialism.
ARTS & CULTURE
Sings songs pertaining to own religion/culture.
What next...
Identify and explain content and purpose of different
religious songs
Ah ha! Can't just practice your own religion.
GRADE 6
MUST be able to sing canons from AT LEAST three
different cultures/religions.
This is no more than an infringement on basic human
rights. No one should be forced to learn or partake in any
religion other than their own.
OVERVIEW
This new Curriculum 2005 is more than a tool to impose a
totalitarian system of social control that is totally
unchristian and will make the Communist regimes look
like amateurs in indoctrination.
Our only chance of reversing this trend is now! Our
children's futures depend on it.
For those who think you are safe in private or Christian
schools, think again. The system will be imposed on ALL
schools in South Africa.
The system overall will effect the following:
Render our children vulnerable to propaganda by
diffusing individual and cultural identities. This diffusion is
nothing but a relentless psycho-political programme of
mind conditioning, removing all individual values so that
other can be instilled in their place. "When the house is
swept clean, the demon plus seven even worse than he
will move in"
Impose interfaith religion upon them as a compulsory,
examinable subject, requiring our children to confess the
values of this "new" religion if they want to receive
recognised qualifications.
Demonize minorities and individual thinking by
establishing a norm of compromise and "group think". The
individual identity of children will be crushed under the
weight of the collective.
Destroy social diversity by homogenizing moral values
and requiring children to acquire and demonstrate state
approved values.
---
I am not religious, but I do believe that such subtle government propaganda is
harmful for society.
Most adults can't tell the difference, how can pupils. -
---
Mel
news:9pmrtj$nok$3...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> To those of you with kids who are still struggling with the "yes/no"
battle,
> please read the following message from an ACDP Councillor;
> It is important that people who care for the future of our children be
> aware of what is being planned for them.
> Subject: ACDP LETTER CONCERNING EDUCATION BILL
Coming from an idiot who operates a site devoted to porn (and has links to
smut)... the irony is rich...
Why don't you just go and fuck off, you silly little hypocrite?
--
Smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
FFMG
news:9pmsoq$ob3$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
LOL,
I can't believe he didn't even try to hide the website.
Well spotted Mel
--
FFMG
Please remove _NOSPAM in email address for reply.
Ruddie
like Heinrich. However you two are absolute pillocks. One of you sits in the
UK - why don't you bugger off back to SA if you think all is hunky dory
there? Mel you will follow the path of many a white SA liberal. Arse creep
the ANC until things become intolerable and then run off overseas to tell
others your horror stories whilst the others who cannot run are left to
drown in the crap you helped create.
Heinrich ignore these two. At least you are honest enough to post under your
normal email addy.
FFMG <Florent@guelfucci__NOSPAM.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9pmug4$h8r$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Mel
news:6zKv7.22875$GT3.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> FFMG <Florent@guelfucci__NOSPAM.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9pmug4$h8r$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Mel" <rrc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:9pmsoq$ob3$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> > > <Hein...@BelleModel.co.za> wrote in message
> > > news:9pmrtj$nok$3...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> > > > To those of you with kids who are still struggling with the "yes/no"
> > > > battle,
> > > > please read the following message from an ACDP Councillor;
> > > > It is important that people who care for the future of our children
be
> > > > aware of what is being planned for them.
> > > > Subject: ACDP LETTER CONCERNING EDUCATION BILL
> > > Coming from an idiot who operates a site devoted to porn (and has
links
> > > to smut)... the irony is rich...
> > > http://www.bellemodel.co.za/
> > > Why don't you just go and fuck off, you silly little hypocrite?
> > I can't believe he didn't even try to hide the website.
> > Well spotted Mel
> like Heinrich.
A little strange???
That is a major understatement...
> However you two are absolute pillocks.
A pillock? Oh well, I can live with that...
> Mel you will follow the path of many a white SA liberal.
I see you know my political leanings? That's interesting because I am
honestly so confused I couldn't say... some days I am an out and out Nazi,
and the next day I vote DA...
> Arse creep the ANC
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Not likely!
> until things become intolerable and then run off overseas to tell
> others your horror stories whilst the others who cannot run are left to
> drown in the crap you helped create.
In what why am I responsible for what "crap"??? Cos I haven't the faintest
idea what you are talking about...
> Heinrich ignore these two. At least you are honest enough to post under
your
> normal email addy.
Heinrich is most likely a pedophile... a lot of pedophiles in South Africa
are Afrikaans and can quote the Bible fluently...
Just so as you get the logic clearly... this is what I said...
1. A white South African man is a pedophile IMPLIES they are highly likely
to be Afrikaans and very religious
2. A person is a white South African Afrikaans man and is very religious
IMPLIES nothing... (the implication goes only one way)...
Ruddie, you are most likely also a pedophile... tell us... where did Gert
van Rooyen bury the bodies?? There are a lot of South African families who
would like to bury their children... but can't... because they don't know
what happened to them...
And that is why I would sign into law legislation that allows pedophiles to
be tortured until they reveal their secrets or die...
In your case, Ruddie, I am happy to make an exception: whether you are a
pedophile or not, I would torture you until you die... just because I am
rather bored this late Saturday evening...
<Insert death threats here please>
--
Smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
You will pay for your sins. If you have already paid, please disregard this
message.
FFMG
news:6zKv7.22875$GT3.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> like Heinrich. However you two are absolute pillocks. One of you sits in
the
> UK - why don't you bugger off back to SA if you think all is hunky dory
> there?
What's your insult?
I am trying to return to SA and I never said it was hunky dory?
Hein...@bellemodel.co.za
><Hein...@BelleModel.co.za> wrote in message
>> To those of you with kids who are still struggling with the "yes/no"
>battle,
>> please read the following message from an ACDP Councillor;
>> It is important that people who care for the future of our children be
>> aware of what is being planned for them.
>> Subject: ACDP LETTER CONCERNING EDUCATION BILL
>
>Coming from an idiot who operates a site devoted to porn (and has links to
>smut)... the irony is rich...
>
>http://www.bellemodel.co.za/
>
>Why don't you just go and fuck off, you silly little hypocrite?
>
----------------------- Advert --------------------
Discreet Accommodation - South Africa, Pretoria, Sunny Side
R100 (US$20)/night, R625 (US$110)/week
1 bedroom flats (furnished, self-catering) + lock-up garages.
Very private. (Extras available on request...!)
HeinRich 012-341-2290 : 9h45-10h15, 16h15-16h45, 19h00-20h00 Mon-Sun
mailto:Hein...@BelleModel.co.za
<a href="http://www.bellemodel.co.za/accommodations.html"> www.bellemodel.co.za/accommodations.html </a>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hein...@bellemodel.co.za
than any goverment has run this country during the same period. My real
names, phone numbers & address are on my website.
>It may be a little strange to hear this sort of material coming from a man
>like Heinrich. However you two are absolute pillocks. One of you sits in the
>UK - why don't you bugger off back to SA if you think all is hunky dory
>there? Mel you will follow the path of many a white SA liberal. Arse creep
>the ANC until things become intolerable and then run off overseas to tell
>others your horror stories whilst the others who cannot run are left to
>drown in the crap you helped create.
>
>Heinrich ignore these two. At least you are honest enough to post under your
>normal email addy.
>
>> > > To those of you with kids who are still struggling with the "yes/no"
>> > battle,
>> > > please read the following message from an ACDP Councillor;
>> > > It is important that people who care for the future of our children be
>> > > aware of what is being planned for them.
>> > > Subject: ACDP LETTER CONCERNING EDUCATION BILL
>> >
>> > Coming from an idiot who operates a site devoted to porn (and has links
>to
>> > smut)... the irony is rich...
>> >
>> > http://www.bellemodel.co.za/
>> >
>> > Why don't you just go and fuck off, you silly little hypocrite?
>> >
>> > --
>> > Smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
>>
>> LOL,
>> I can't believe he didn't even try to hide the website.
>>
>> Well spotted Mel
----------------------- Advert --------------------
Moira de Swardt
<Hein...@BelleModel.co.za> wrote in message
<Snip>
> CURRICULUM 2005 - THE ONSLAUGHT ON OUR CHILDREN CONTINUES
<Snip>
> On 30th July 2001, the Education Department released the
> new National Curriculum for comment. Responses and
> comments must be in by 12 October. Very few teachers
> have even heard about it, and hardly any consultation has
> taken place with parents, children, churches and
> communities.
Since when has consultation with parents, children, churches and
communities been a feature of our education system? Why are people
in outrage *now* about this lack. It's not sudden. Yes, consult by
all means, but don't make out that a lack of consultation is
something new and sinister.
<Snip>
> A SCRIPTURAL THOUGHT
> Scripture requires of us to "instruct our children in the ways
> of the Lord and they will not depart from them."
> What happens most of the time, is we simply instruct our
> children in the knowledge of the Lord and hope for the
> best.
> There is a vast difference between knowledge and ways.
> To raise your child in the ways of the Lord implies daily
> practical instruction. Sunday school knowledge does not
> fulfil this obligation.
Exactly. Parents have an obligation to raise their children, and
educate them in religious matters. It is not a function of a
government school.
> Most Christian parents and institutions refrain from school
> involvement as it seen as a government function and they
> therefore "give unto Caesar".
"Giving unto Caesar" implies taxes rather than sending children to a
government school. Responsible parents *never* abdicate their role
in their children's education.
> Give your coins if you want to...they have Caesar's face on
> them, but DO NOT give your children. They are created in
> the image of God!
Taxation is not voluntary. It is obligatory.
<Snip>
> I have listed below some of the issues of concern to
> Christian parents and only from two modules, namely Life
> Orientation and Social Sciences. Take note - ONLY
> SOME!
I assume you believe these to be the main ones?
> Be aware that these are the essences on which your child
> will be assessed to determine if he or she has acquired
> sufficient "life skills" to function in the New World planned
> for them.
"New World"? Capitalisation deliberate? I hope the education
system plans to teach punctuation skills. That would be an
improvement on what most people gleaned from our so-called
"Christian education".
> LIFE ORIENTATION
> Grade R Identify private parts of their body
What is "Grade R"?
And this is some kind of plot? Rubbish. It is a disgrace that a
child of four or five still refers to a vagina as "down there" or
some other euphamism. It's absolutely shocking when a child of
school age does it. Children should be given working terms for all
body parts and all bodily functions.
> This is a major success for the followers of Margaret
> Sanger, a known "supreme race" adherent, a racist and
> pro abortionist who many years back pushed for show and
> tell sessions in primary schools so that children could
> understand their "sexuality"
Knowing terms such as "penis", "vagina", and "anus" is some kind of
racist victory? Why is the word "sexuality" in inverted commas?
Sexuality is something that everyone has, whether they are new born
or 105 years old. It is distinct from gender, orientation and
sensuality. What is so threatening about it?
I'm quite sure that there has never been any desire to have children
show their own "private parts" to anyone. Merely to demystify the
whole procedure. Take some of the curiousity out of "Let's play
doctor doctor". Should protect children, not harm them.
> Identify symbols relating to AT LEAST three religions
> other than their own.
> This in itself might appear harmless, but watch the
> progression to actual understanding and acceptance of
> other religions
You're right. It is harmless. Together with recognising flags,
racial characteristics, different languages etc. People are
different. The world has many different religions. It makes sense
that children are taught to recognise the different symbols. That
way the progression can be towards understanding and acceptance.
Clue. Desirable goal.
Look at Afghanistan - the Taliban wants to eliminate understanding
and acceptance of Christianity. Many Christians are praying that
they won't be the ruling party for long. Now, you appear to be
saying that Christians mustn't allow understanding and acceptance of
Islam or Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism or Wicca or Shintoism?
> Grade 3
> Describe the worship practices of AT LEAST three
> other religions
Great.
> Grade 4
> Describe how nature can be a source of spiritual
> health
And this is untrue because ...?
> Now we're getting there. One faith, one world. This is no
> more than indoctrination into the whole Mother Earth God
> philosophy and is blatant paganism.
Paganism? Christianity and other monotheistic religions don't
appreciate nature or recognise that nature can be *a* source of
spiritual health? Have you *read* the Bible? Do you understand the
concept of spiritual health?
> Grade 4
> Describe the value systems of AT LEAST Four
> religions As well as festivals, rituals and customs
> This technique has already been used well in America in
> teaching children that all religions are the same because
> we all believe in good things! Take note that the depth of
> knowledge required of other languages progresses with
> each grade.
No, it teaches that all religions are different. However, if
religion does not promote "good things" there doesn't seem to be any
point in it.
One trusts that depth of knowledge progresses with each grade. This
includes languages (sic) and religous knowledge.
> Grade 6
> Explain children's rights
> UNESCO has long been pushing for an agenda of
> children's rights, which clearly state that parental control in
> the area of religion and sexual practices must be removed
> and children be allowed freedom of choice from age 13.
It does? I haven't got the charter to hand, but I don't recall this
being a feature of the charter which I have seen. Try UNICEF's
website.
> The whole principle behind the "rights of children" is in
> direct contrast with the responsibilities laid out Biblically.
Whose responsibilities? What responsibilities? Of course, the
Bible doesn't require that one should educate one's children, and
one can sacrifice them or sell them into slavery or marry them off
against their will to rich, old people, so I suppose that must be
what you're talking about? Funny, it figures that a pornographer
would be opposed to children's rights.
> Grade 6 - Learning Outcome 2
> This is seen as a period when parental and family
> influence is no longer of essence.
> This is not my opinion. The C2005 documents clearly
> indicate this!
Do you understand what "of essence" means? A child in Grade 6 is
likely to be between 11 and 13 years of age in Africa. Ever hear of
"peer influence"? It's at this age that it kicks in.
> Grade 7 - 9
> Look at holistic and traditional healing.
> Throwing bones, chanting mantra's and asking the Earth
> Goddess for healing is as far from Christian faith as what
> we can possibly go.
And gentle massage is not the way Christian mothers soothe their ill
children? Healing oils diffused in a little burner is not a
variation of the annointing of oils specified in the Bible? Drugs,
operations etc. are Christian?
And praying to God for healing is different from asking the Earth
Goddess for healing *how*? (We accept that this involves different
gods).
> Discuss "life cycles".
> As in when you come back in your next life would you like
> to be a corrupt politician, or perhaps a grasshopper.
"Life cycles"? These refer to the chain from little silkworm egg
to little silkworm to cocoon to moth to egg.
You seem to be referring to reincarnation. While I don't believe in
reincarnation, anything with a brain would be an improvement for
some people.
> Perhaps here, I would like to make a point. Scripture
> clearly says that we serve either God or satan. We need to
> get our definition of "satanist" clearly sorted out in our
> minds. Any study, of any faith, other than Christianity, is
> the study of satanism.
Drivel. Satanism is satanism. Other religions are other religions.
Christianity is a many splendoured thing - it has room for all sorts
of people.
> Understand the basic human right of abortion.
> This is grade 7 people! Heaven alone knows what they are
> going to be teaching them in sex education if they need to
> know this "right"
And children who have entered puberty should know how the body
functions, and what abortion is, and that it is a controversial
subject, and they should be able to name two or three arguments on
either side - then, hopefully, they will be able to develop their
own thinking along these lines. Maybe we'll have children who can
think by the time they reach high school? Wouldn't that be great?
> Understand how similar belief systems are.
Which belief systems? Of course there are similarities and
differences in belief systems. Teaching children to deal with the
concept of similarities and differences is vital for a vast number
of processes, including religious ones.
> Because then it doesn't matter which God you serve.
Of course it matters. No-one is trying to create a system whereby
belief systems are valueless. It merely doesn't give anyone the
right to insist that *their* belief system is the only one, or,
indeed, the *best* one.
> Assessment WILL be based on pre-determined criteria
> and standards.
And how do you *want* assessment to take place? On some kind of
system approved by *your* religious group?
> So much for tolerance and open mindedness! Guess who
> will be setting these criteria? If you think Christians, please
> give me a call. We need to talk :-)
The use of a little smiley emoticon doesn't soften this drivel one
bit. Christians are notorious for *not* being tolerant and open
minded. Why should they (or we, for I admit, with some reluctance
in view of the drivel to which I'm responding, that I am a
Christian) get to choose for everyone?
> Learner profiles will be kept on record as to their
> holistic development of values and attitudes.
As it should be.
> This has worked very well in previous mind manipulative
> states such as the Soviet Union and China. Gotta keep
> tabs on the rebels. No subsidies, no varsity entrance. Not
> for Christian rebels!
Drivel. There is no sinister reason for this. If, however, the
powers that be decide that the Jerry Falwell's of the world don't
deserve state funded education, then it would probably be a step in
the right direction. After all, hate is not a Christian family
value.
> SOCIAL SCIENCES
> Promote a broader understanding of the concept
> "family"
> God is obviously incorrect on this issue and just plain old
> bigoted for not taking into account homosexual
> relationships and good old living together.
Oh, we have decided that God is incorrect on this issue. We no
longer condone (Christian) polygamous marriage. Marriage is not for
life or until some irate husband gets the pip because supper's not
on the table at the appointed hour.
The term "family" has only very briefly meant the little nuclear
family which fundamentalists so admire. Deal with it.
> Encourage learners to understand that culture/religion
> and identity are not fixed.
Absolutely. How else does evangelism work?
> "For me to live is Christ" Our identity, who we are as
> Christians, is intricately tied up in our faith and can never
> be separated. This methodology has been used in other OBE
> systems to separate the child's faith from that of the
> parents.
Why should it be acceptable to win converts *to* Christ, but not
*from* Christ? If a religion has substance, then it should be
strong enough to withstand attack.
> Recognise that there can be more than one version of
> history
> eg. Maybe God did not create the world but indeed we
> came from apes.
You seem to be confusing the evolution/creation debate with history.
Neither is history in the sense of the word which is implied above,
although both form part of the history of humankind.
Of course there's more than one version of history. A visit to the
sites where battles took place will indicate that the locals (often
the losers) viewed the reasons and results quite differently from
the invaders.
> And a look at the recommendations for History
> includes...
> South Africa - no mention made of the impact of the
> missionaries at all But a study of Egyptian religion
> recommended. AS WELL as a study of the spread of
> Islam, their education centres, trade etc. This in a
> education system that supposedly wants to remove
> religious education from schools. Perhaps Christianity, but
> definitely not religion!
South African history did not discuss the impact of the missionaries
in my day until the later years of high school. However, ancient
civilisations was covered in standard six (grade eight). I
understand that many things are being introduced earlier now than
when I was educated, shortly after the Dark Ages. The study of
Islam was ignored in my day, so I never *quite* understood the
purpose of the Crusades and the Middle East crises was a mystery.
One needs information to be able to make sense of everyday things -
you know, like the current USA attacks on Afghanistan.
> Discussion of Agenda 21
> which promotes the evolution theory as well as abortion as
> a means of keeping the world population within
> controllable limits. For those of you out there that still feel
> the world is over populated consider this... If God says
> that children are a blessing, how can they ever be a
> curse?
Do you think children should be denied the information which will
enable them to make their own decisions? Children who are given
both sides of an argument will usually make better decisions than
children who are only given one side and then told that that is the
correct side.
> Grade 7
> Archaeological evidence of evolution of man.
> Take note of the subtle mixing of science and theory. No
> evolutionist has ever proved his theories!
And the Bible hasn't explained the archaeological evidence, has it?
This is no biggie, except for Christian fundamentalists.
> Understand that it was not only politics that vilified
> Africa but also "imported" religion.
> Christianity is one of these obvious filthy imports!
Where does it say "filthy"? Remember that everything comes with
both pros and cons. This is the reasoning the syllabus is trying to
teach. Obviously the old system of education failed miserably in
teaching reasoning skills.
> Studying the ideology of capitalism.
> Hard work never killed anybody except Africa it seems :-)
> Whatever could be the solution? Of course - Socialism.
Where does it say that capitalism is bad?
> ARTS & CULTURE
> Sings songs pertaining to own religion/culture.
> What next...
Little dances relating to one's own religion and culture?
Little meals relating to one's own religion and culture?
> Identify and explain content and purpose of different
> religious songs
> Ah ha! Can't just practice your own religion.
Christmas carols are not usually sung at Easter. By *any* religion.
Different religious songs. Songs for weddings, songs for funerals,
songs for praise, songs for worship, songs for prayer, songs for
meditation. Different religious songs. I'm sure all religions
have different liturgies for weddings and funerals.
> GRADE 6
> MUST be able to sing canons from AT LEAST three
> different cultures/religions.
Kumbaya (East African)
Hallelu (Jewish)
God is so good (American)
Vader Jacob (European)
Siyabonga (Southern African)
> This is no more than an infringement on basic human
> rights. No one should be forced to learn or partake in any
> religion other than their own.
Culture or religion. Wouldn't we be impoverished if we denied
people the right to view different cultures and religions and then
to use them? Hmm. No "whole number" system - the Arabs invented
that. No writing - the Chinese invented that. Etcetera, etcetera.
> OVERVIEW
> This new Curriculum 2005 is more than a tool to impose a
> totalitarian system of social control that is totally
> unchristian and will make the Communist regimes look
> like amateurs in indoctrination.
Drivel.
> Our only chance of reversing this trend is now! Our
> children's futures depend on it.
Drivel.
> For those who think you are safe in private or Christian
> schools, think again. The system will be imposed on ALL
> schools in South Africa.
Only if the intention is to write external examinations.
> The system overall will effect the following:
> Render our children vulnerable to propaganda by
> diffusing individual and cultural identities. This diffusion is
> nothing but a relentless psycho-political programme of
> mind conditioning, removing all individual values so that
> other can be instilled in their place. "When the house is
> swept clean, the demon plus seven even worse than he
> will move in"
The intention is not to diffuse individual and cultural identities,
but to celebrate them. In so doing the values will be enhanced.
> Impose interfaith religion upon them as a compulsory,
> examinable subject, requiring our children to confess the
> values of this "new" religion if they want to receive
> recognised qualifications.
There is no such thing as "interfaith religion". However, children
should be able to recognise that their own religion (where they have
one) is not the only religion, nor is it automatically better than
the religion of another.
> Demonize minorities and individual thinking by
> establishing a norm of compromise and "group think". The
> individual identity of children will be crushed under the
> weight of the collective.
No. It will protect minorities and allow children to celebrate
their individual identies, even within "homogenous" groups.
> Destroy social diversity by homogenizing moral values
> and requiring children to acquire and demonstrate state
> approved values.
Not so. There are no "state approved values" in the various
religions. Remember, the children are being asked to look at the
values of the various religions.
> I am not religious, but I do believe that such subtle government
propaganda is
> harmful for society.
> Most adults can't tell the difference, how can pupils. -
Of course subtle propaganda is harmful to society, but it has taken
place for generations. Teaching children to think is one way of
subverting *any* propaganda and teaching children the concept that
dogma needs to be evaluated.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Mark Richardson
Moira de Swardt <moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote in message
news:9q4p2b$k58$2...@ctb-nnrp1.saix.net...
>
> <Hein...@BelleModel.co.za> wrote in message
> Since when has consultation with parents, children, churches and
> communities been a feature of our education system? Why are people
> in outrage *now* about this lack. It's not sudden. Yes, consult by
> all means, but don't make out that a lack of consultation is
> something new and sinister.
The fact that consultation was not a feature of past administrations does
not mean that consultation per se is not necessary. In this case there a
truly fundamental change in the education system is on the cards. It's
intention is to ensure that education at all levels and whether private, or
public or at home is rigidly prescribed, even though results are not
considered to be important.
There is also a strong suspicion that the requirement that a child learns
about three religions is the thin end of the wedge of a policy of attacking
Christian beliefs. If there are militant atheists, or Muslims amongst those
in the Ministry of Education, responsible for formulating policy directives,
this may not be as unlikely as Kader Asmal made it out to be on the Tim
Modise Show. After that performance I would rate him as a man in whom any
sensible person would be reluctant to place any trust whatsoever. He gave no
indication that he intends to let any representations alter his very firm
purpose and he resorted to the time honoured politicians escape route, by
assuring listeners that there would be a meeting in Cape Town at which
opponents of the proposals would have a chance to air their views. What he
did not say, but which he implied by his demeanour and responses during the
programme, is that he will take not the slightest notice of any such
representations, but will be able to walk away from that meeting assuring
the country that "full consultations" have taken place.
However, what really needs to be considered is that the Ministry of
Education is quite unable to manage it's present responsibilities,
especially those that involve monitoring performance of existing teaching
and administrative personnel. How it is proposed that, when Asmal was only
able to send out 11 000 notices of the proposed changes when there are 27
000 schools involved, a radically new teaching method is going to be able to
be implemented across the country. If he cannot even advise the schools of
what it is that he proposes how on earth are all the individual teachers
going to receive instruction and monitoring in the new ways?
This "new education system" was originally "curriculum 2000". The fact that
it is now "Curriculum 2005" says much for the competence and appreciation of
the situation on the part of those punting the system. The worrying feature
is that an easy target for official sanctions will be the private schools,
particularly those with a strong Christian ethic. That, to me seems to be
the primary aim of the exercise. Any actual competence in properly
introducing, implementing and monitoring the new system seems to be as
unlikely as Asmal being a passenger in one of those Russian space trips -
although the country would benefit more from that than having him where he
is right now.
Mark Richardson
Moira de Swardt
Mark Richardson <ma...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> > Since when has consultation with parents, children, churches and
> > communities been a feature of our education system? Why are
people
> > in outrage *now* about this lack. It's not sudden. Yes,
consult by
> > all means, but don't make out that a lack of consultation is
> > something new and sinister.
> The fact that consultation was not a feature of past
administrations does
> not mean that consultation per se is not necessary. In this case
there a
> truly fundamental change in the education system is on the cards.
It's
> intention is to ensure that education at all levels and whether
private, or
> public or at home is rigidly prescribed, even though results are
not
> considered to be important.
The fact that results may not be important is far more worrying than
the possible "propaganda" issues raised by the original poster.
Children are not allowed to fail more than once per cycle (Grade 1
to 3 is one cycle, Grade 4 to 7 is the second cycle, Grades 8, 9
and, I think 10 form the third cycle, while Grades 11 and 12 are not
regarded as being compulsory).
Home education can never be "rigidly prescribed" and to a lesser
degree private education also has leeway. Surely only "results" can
demand that children learn certain things? When children can
reproduce these facts then what else they are taught cannot be
censured.
Learning about other religions is not an attack on any religion.
Anyone who believes that their own religion is so inferior that
learning about another one is an attack on it is a sad, pathetic
figure. I am not only a believer in the saving grace of the Lord
Jesus Christ, but I have been set aside to make it my life's work to
proclaim the same. I do not, for a second, believe that learning
about any other religion is a threat to my belief, or to the
validity of such belief for other people.
I didn't see the programme concerned, but Asmal has one of the more
impressive records in relation to his ministerial duties. I hope he
intends to continue in a similar vein.
> However, what really needs to be considered is that the Ministry
of
> Education is quite unable to manage it's present responsibilities,
> especially those that involve monitoring performance of existing
teaching
> and administrative personnel. How it is proposed that, when Asmal
was only
> able to send out 11 000 notices of the proposed changes when there
are 27
> 000 schools involved, a radically new teaching method is going to
be able to
> be implemented across the country. If he cannot even advise the
schools of
> what it is that he proposes how on earth are all the individual
teachers
> going to receive instruction and monitoring in the new ways?
What new ways? The syllabus is merely being adapted. The school
syllabus has been adapted at regular intervals since "Pa fell off
the bus". The "new" teaching method has already been implemented.
Teachers have all been workshopped, upgraded, retrained or whatever
they want to call it.
> This "new education system" was originally "curriculum 2000". The
fact that
> it is now "Curriculum 2005" says much for the competence and
appreciation of
> the situation on the part of those punting the system. The
worrying feature
> is that an easy target for official sanctions will be the private
schools,
> particularly those with a strong Christian ethic. That, to me
seems to be
> the primary aim of the exercise. Any actual competence in properly
> introducing, implementing and monitoring the new system seems to
be as
> unlikely as Asmal being a passenger in one of those Russian space
trips -
> although the country would benefit more from that than having him
where he
> is right now.
I do not think that the adaptation of the curriculum is an admission
of incompetence. Quite the reverse. And I really don't see what
"official sanctions" will be applied to private schools, especially
those with a strong Christian ethic. Christianity has survived 2000
years of attacks, heresy, watering down, assimilation and
disinterest. It will survive being compared to other world
religions. It may even be better for the comparison.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Steve Hayes
<moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote:
>It's
>> intention is to ensure that education at all levels and whether
>private, or
>> public or at home is rigidly prescribed, even though results are
>not
>> considered to be important.
>
>The fact that results may not be important is far more worrying than
>the possible "propaganda" issues raised by the original poster.
>Children are not allowed to fail more than once per cycle (Grade 1
>to 3 is one cycle, Grade 4 to 7 is the second cycle, Grades 8, 9
>and, I think 10 form the third cycle, while Grades 11 and 12 are not
>regarded as being compulsory).
I thought that the whole aim of "Outcomes-based Education" was that results
("outcomes") WERE important. The aim was to deprive teachers of the old excuse
"We taught them that but they didn't learn it" (which is Input-based
Education).
I haven't participated in this thread before, partly because I was so
gob-smacked at the thought of a guy who runs a porn site posting such an item
with such a title. I would have thought advocating sex education to prepare
kids for careers as "sex workers" would have been more appropriate.
The document itself looks like just one more reason for not voting for the
ACDP. Every time I'm tempted to vote for them they produce something like
that, which reminds me why I don't.
For myself, after seeing the evils of Christian National Education, I believe
that "religious education" has no place in state schools. The whole OBE thing
was far too ambitious for South African schools. It requires a lot of highly
qualified teachers, not ones whose brains have been turned to mush by 40 years
of CNE. And in addition, the government laid off the older and more
experienced teachers (ie those who qualified before CNE became ubiquitous),
saying that there were too many teachers. That was a good way of ensuring that
education remained in the same sorry mess that it was under the Nats, and that
any attempts at "transformation" would fail.
And if the whole thing was too ambitious, then religious education is even
more so. Where are they going to get the teachers who can do that sort of
thing?
In the CNE days, religious education was a farce. In many schools it was left
to the teachers who liked that kind of thing, and most of those who liked that
kind of thing had some kind of sectarian hobby-horse to ride. Kids from one
high school (in Durban) were forever complaining to me about the kind of stuff
their Mormon religious education teacher was teaching them. My own kids had a
Seventh-Day Adventist in primary school.
I think it's fine to teach such stuff at schools run by religious bodies. If
the mormons and the Seventh-Day Adventists want to teach that stuff, they
should run their own schools, and then the parents and the kids and everyone
else know what they are getting. They can teach Islam in the Madressa, or
whatever.
This is not to say that kids should learn nothing of different religions at
state schools -- but let them learn them in history and geography. It's hard
to study the history of India without learning something about Hinduism and
Buddhism and Islam. It's hard to learn the history of the Near East without
learning something about Judaism and Christianity and Islam. And so on. Let it
be taught by history teachers who even if they do have a sectarian axe to
grind, can at least temper it by the constraints of their discipline.
Steve Hayes
http://www.suite101.com/myhome.cfm/methodius
For spammers:
tos...@aol.com ab...@aol.com ab...@yahoo.com u...@ftc.gov
ab...@hotmail.com ab...@msn.com ab...@mindspring.net
abuse-n...@uu.net ab...@dialsprint.net ab...@earthlink.com
postm...@attglobal.net ab...@bellsouth.net ab...@sympatico.ca
Mark Richardson
> private, or
> > public or at home is rigidly prescribed, even though results are
> not
> > considered to be important.
>
> The fact that results may not be important is far more worrying than
> the possible "propaganda" issues raised by the original poster.
> Children are not allowed to fail more than once per cycle (Grade 1
> to 3 is one cycle, Grade 4 to 7 is the second cycle, Grades 8, 9
> and, I think 10 form the third cycle, while Grades 11 and 12 are not
> regarded as being compulsory).
>
> Home education can never be "rigidly prescribed" and to a lesser
> degree private education also has leeway. Surely only "results" can
> demand that children learn certain things? When children can
> reproduce these facts then what else they are taught cannot be
> censured.
If the home educated child wishes to take a national examination what has
been taught does become important.
> Learning about other religions is not an attack on any religion.
> Anyone who believes that their own religion is so inferior that
> learning about another one is an attack on it is a sad, pathetic
> figure. I am not only a believer in the saving grace of the Lord
> Jesus Christ, but I have been set aside to make it my life's work to
> proclaim the same. I do not, for a second, believe that learning
> about any other religion is a threat to my belief, or to the
> validity of such belief for other people.
I would not quarrel with that. However, it is the potential for denigrating
the one whilst promoting another that is of concern. I would suggest that
religous adherence and teaching is something that should be left to the
family, unless the child is purposely sent to a school with a declared
religous adherence and with the expecation that the child will receive relig
ous instruction at school.
> I didn't see the programme concerned, but Asmal has one of the more
> impressive records in relation to his ministerial duties. I hope he
> intends to continue in a similar vein.
I do not. His performance on that show was extremely worrying.
> What new ways? The syllabus is merely being adapted. The school
> syllabus has been adapted at regular intervals since "Pa fell off
> the bus". The "new" teaching method has already been implemented.
> Teachers have all been workshopped, upgraded, retrained or whatever
> they want to call it.
OBE is up and running throughout the country? That is news and I am sure
that schools in Transkei would be interested to know that that is how they
are now operating. All teachers have been workshopped, upgraded,
retrained????? I must tell my daughter that that is what has happened to her
and I am sure that she and her colleagues,. when she tells them, will be
more than a little surprised.
> I do not think that the adaptation of the curriculum is an admission
> of incompetence. Quite the reverse. And I really don't see what
> "official sanctions" will be applied to private schools, especially
> those with a strong Christian ethic. Christianity has survived 2000
> years of attacks, heresy, watering down, assimilation and
> disinterest. It will survive being compared to other world
> religions. It may even be better for the comparison.
It is not the adaptation of a curriculum that is an admission of
incompetence, it is the current administration of education that is
massively incompetent. When a deputy headmaster of a junior school,in
Engcobo District can get away with impregnating two girls per annum for ten
years and not a thing is done about it, until yesterday after huge press
pressure, how many more, less heinous, deficiencies go completely
unremarked?
Administration is so bad that whilst teachers who resigned more than a year
ago and others who died before that, are still being paid, one of my
daughter's colleagues has not received a cent after ten months following
appointment to a new post. Not even action by the Ombudsman has been able to
produce results because the department simply ignores him.
To expect such a maladministered organisation to introduce, implement, and
control a brand new curriculum is not in any way realistic.
I am sure that Christianity will survive. It actually does better under
threat than otherwise. But, I am concerned at what appears to be a need, on
the part of those now in authority, to undermine a faith that is being
encouraged in a child by his family, at the most vulnerable time in the
child's life, where questions of faith are at issue. The only comforting
feature about this whole exercise is that the monumental incompetence of
government to properly administer education will mean that their capacity
for monitoring the performance of educators will be no better then than it
is now.
Mark Richardson
Moira de Swardt
Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> <moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote:
> I thought that the whole aim of "Outcomes-based Education" was
that results
> ("outcomes") WERE important. The aim was to deprive teachers of
the old excuse
> "We taught them that but they didn't learn it" (which is
Input-based
> Education).
We've had this discussion before on this forum. Same participants,
too, I think.
The outcomes can be nothing more than desirable outcomes. The truth
is that much education is based on "input" and people will only
learn what they want to learn, or at least what they are willing to
learn.
> >Learning about other religions is not an attack on any religion.
> >Anyone who believes that their own religion is so inferior that
> >learning about another one is an attack on it is a sad, pathetic
> >figure. I am not only a believer in the saving grace of the Lord
> >Jesus Christ, but I have been set aside to make it my life's work
to
> >proclaim the same. I do not, for a second, believe that learning
> >about any other religion is a threat to my belief, or to the
> >validity of such belief for other people.
> I haven't participated in this thread before, partly because I was
so
> gob-smacked at the thought of a guy who runs a porn site posting
such an item
> with such a title. I would have thought advocating sex education
to prepare
> kids for careers as "sex workers" would have been more
appropriate.
Hmm. I fear you may be correct. However, I was not surprised that
someone who runs a porn site would want children not to be taught to
think. Children who don't think about things, particularly values,
are so much more susceptible to reacting to external stimuli, and
sexual stimili are aided by hormones.
> The document itself looks like just one more reason for not voting
for the
> ACDP. Every time I'm tempted to vote for them they produce
something like
> that, which reminds me why I don't.
You've been tempted to vote for them? I find them horribly
fundamentalist, hateful people. Questions involving the death
sentence, abortion (I've always been puzzled by the particular
linking fundamentalists have on the aforementioned), homosexuality,
women's place in society etc. are complicated contextually by time
and place. I cannot even consider voting for people who would
impose a theocracy if they had the power to do so.
> For myself, after seeing the evils of Christian National
Education, I believe
> that "religious education" has no place in state schools.
I suspect that most deeply religious people would agree with you on
this one. Religious education is rightly the function of the
parents, not the church, the state or even religious schools.
> The whole OBE thing
> was far too ambitious for South African schools. It requires a lot
of highly
> qualified teachers, not ones whose brains have been turned to mush
by 40 years
> of CNE. And in addition, the government laid off the older and
more
> experienced teachers (ie those who qualified before CNE became
ubiquitous),
> saying that there were too many teachers. That was a good way of
ensuring that
> education remained in the same sorry mess that it was under the
Nats, and that
> any attempts at "transformation" would fail.
Interesting. There *are* still some good teachers out there, but
many of the best ones have been lured out to big business or forced
out to other avenues. I know at least four former teachers who
reckon they earn three times the money with much less work in the
world of banking. Several former teachers are ministers of
religion, some of whom reckon that its no less lucrative nor
demanding than teaching.
> And if the whole thing was too ambitious, then religious education
is even
> more so. Where are they going to get the teachers who can do that
sort of
> thing?
I'm not sure that the requirements of the syllabus are actually very
demanding. I assume there are teachers' guides available with the
actual information. The web has all that information - and more -
at the click of a mouse.
> In the CNE days, religious education was a farce. In many schools
it was left
> to the teachers who liked that kind of thing, and most of those
who liked that
> kind of thing had some kind of sectarian hobby-horse to ride. Kids
from one
> high school (in Durban) were forever complaining to me about the
kind of stuff
> their Mormon religious education teacher was teaching them. My own
kids had a
> Seventh-Day Adventist in primary school.
And I'm sure it didn't harm any of them. Children tend to know they
are being bullied and to resist accordingly.
> I think it's fine to teach such stuff at schools run by religious
bodies. If
> the mormons and the Seventh-Day Adventists want to teach that
stuff, they
> should run their own schools, and then the parents and the kids
and everyone
> else know what they are getting. They can teach Islam in the
Madressa, or
> whatever.
Absolutely.
> This is not to say that kids should learn nothing of different
religions at
> state schools -- but let them learn them in history and geography.
It's hard
> to study the history of India without learning something about
Hinduism and
> Buddhism and Islam. It's hard to learn the history of the Near
East without
> learning something about Judaism and Christianity and Islam. And
so on. Let it
> be taught by history teachers who even if they do have a sectarian
axe to
> grind, can at least temper it by the constraints of their
discipline.
It would appear, from the context of the original post, to form part
of social studies, not "Religious Instruction" as we knew it. And I
think it is a good thing, not a bad thing to do some basic
comparative studies very early in life.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
> > Home education can never be "rigidly prescribed" and to a lesser
> > degree private education also has leeway. Surely only "results"
can
> > demand that children learn certain things? When children can
> > reproduce these facts then what else they are taught cannot be
> > censured.
> If the home educated child wishes to take a national examination
what has
> been taught does become important.
You were the one who raised the issue of the results not being
important. However, there is coaching for the purpose of taking
exams, and then there is education. Hopefully home education would
fulfil both requirements, otherwise one might as well save one's
energy.
> > Learning about other religions is not an attack on any religion.
> > Anyone who believes that their own religion is so inferior that
> > learning about another one is an attack on it is a sad, pathetic
> > figure. I am not only a believer in the saving grace of the
Lord
> > Jesus Christ, but I have been set aside to make it my life's
work to
> > proclaim the same. I do not, for a second, believe that
learning
> > about any other religion is a threat to my belief, or to the
> > validity of such belief for other people.
> I would not quarrel with that. However, it is the potential for
denigrating
> the one whilst promoting another that is of concern.
In practice I wonder if that would happen? And to what extent? In
a Muslim school there would be denigration of which religions, and
in a Jewish school there would be denigration of which religions,
and in a Christian school there would be denigration of which
religions? And then in state schools which religions would be
denigrated? I suspect that there would be less denigration than
when comparative religion is not taught.
> I would suggest that
> religous adherence and teaching is something that should be left
to the
> family, unless the child is purposely sent to a school with a
declared
> religous adherence and with the expecation that the child will
receive relig
> ous instruction at school.
Agreed.
> > I didn't see the programme concerned, but Asmal has one of the
more
> > impressive records in relation to his ministerial duties. I
hope he
> > intends to continue in a similar vein.
> I do not. His performance on that show was extremely worrying.
Hmm. I didn't see the programme.
> > What new ways? The syllabus is merely being adapted. The
school
> > syllabus has been adapted at regular intervals since "Pa fell
off
> > the bus". The "new" teaching method has already been
implemented.
> > Teachers have all been workshopped, upgraded, retrained or
whatever
> > they want to call it.
> OBE is up and running throughout the country? That is news and I
am sure
> that schools in Transkei would be interested to know that that is
how they
> are now operating. All teachers have been workshopped, upgraded,
> retrained????? I must tell my daughter that that is what has
happened to her
> and I am sure that she and her colleagues,. when she tells them,
will be
> more than a little surprised.
Why haven't they been workshopped, upgraded or retrained? I teach
quite a bit of first aid at various schools and nearly all the
schools where I have taught have staff rooms so filled with notices
of these various workshops that one can't turn around without seeing
one.
Perhaps the Eastern Cape administration is particularly tardy in
this regard? Judging from the national matric results it is
possible that the Northern Province, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape
are lagging behind in various things which national government is
demanding.
> > I do not think that the adaptation of the curriculum is an
admission
> > of incompetence. Quite the reverse. And I really don't see
what
> > "official sanctions" will be applied to private schools,
especially
> > those with a strong Christian ethic. Christianity has survived
2000
> > years of attacks, heresy, watering down, assimilation and
> > disinterest. It will survive being compared to other world
> > religions. It may even be better for the comparison.
> It is not the adaptation of a curriculum that is an admission of
> incompetence, it is the current administration of education that
is
> massively incompetent. When a deputy headmaster of a junior
school,in
> Engcobo District can get away with impregnating two girls per
annum for ten
> years and not a thing is done about it, until yesterday after huge
press
> pressure, how many more, less heinous, deficiencies go completely
> unremarked?
Well, that's not the fault of the people drafting national syllabus
requirements. It's a jolly disgrace that teachers and headmasters
are so badly behaved, but hardly the fault of their colleagues. Can
you imagine how you'd feel if I screamed that all teachers in the
Eastern Cape should have a month's salary docked to cover the
lying-in costs of the mothers?
> Administration is so bad that whilst teachers who resigned more
than a year
> ago and others who died before that, are still being paid, one of
my
> daughter's colleagues has not received a cent after ten months
following
> appointment to a new post. Not even action by the Ombudsman has
been able to
> produce results because the department simply ignores him.
Action should start at local level. The will of the people *is*
important when one has parents toytoying outside the school.
> To expect such a maladministered organisation to introduce,
implement, and
> control a brand new curriculum is not in any way realistic.
Well, I suggest that the curriculum is not the problem. Whatever it
is, it's probably not being taught by the majority of teachers.
> I am sure that Christianity will survive. It actually does better
under
> threat than otherwise. But, I am concerned at what appears to be a
need, on
> the part of those now in authority, to undermine a faith that is
being
> encouraged in a child by his family, at the most vulnerable time
in the
> child's life, where questions of faith are at issue. The only
comforting
> feature about this whole exercise is that the monumental
incompetence of
> government to properly administer education will mean that their
capacity
> for monitoring the performance of educators will be no better then
than it
> is now.
That's not a comfort. That's a reason for home education by those
who are competent to undertake it.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Andrew
>
>
> > For those who think you are safe in private or Christian
> > schools, think again. The system will be imposed on ALL
> > schools in South Africa.
>
This is bullshit. I'm at a private school and the curriculum is the choice
of the school as well as whether to write independent or state exams.
Andrew
Moira de Swardt
Andrew <andre...@usa.net> wrote in message>
> > > schools, think again. The system will be imposed on ALL
> > > schools in South Africa.
> >
>
>
> This is bullshit. I'm at a private school and the curriculum is
the choice
> of the school as well as whether to write independent or state
exams.
Andrew, the above was not written by me. The attribution is wrong.
Please sort it out in your mind. My reply would only have had two >
> markers in *this* post.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Mark Richardson
I do not think that Moira wrote that. Neither did, I but I believe that by
2005 it will be the case. The row is not about the present situation, but
what it will be in 2005.
Mark Richardson
Mark Richardson
>
> Mark Richardson <ma...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> > Moira de Swardt <moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote in
>
> what has
> > been taught does become important.
>
> You were the one who raised the issue of the results not being
> important. However, there is coaching for the purpose of taking
> exams, and then there is education. Hopefully home education would
> fulfil both requirements, otherwise one might as well save one's
> energy.
I believe that the results are very important, It is the promoters of the
new system who appear to believe that they are not.
> > I would not quarrel with that. However, it is the potential for
> denigrating
> > the one whilst promoting another that is of concern.
>
> In practice I wonder if that would happen? And to what extent? In
> a Muslim school there would be denigration of which religions, and
> in a Jewish school there would be denigration of which religions,
> and in a Christian school there would be denigration of which
> religions? And then in state schools which religions would be
> denigrated? I suspect that there would be less denigration than
> when comparative religion is not taught.
In state schools it would be the curriculum for the particular subject that
would determine the emphases, biases etc. to be employed and if the
decisions as to what curricula are to cover are in the hands of people like
Asmal, then I believe that there is considerable cause for concern. If a
parent makes a choice to send a child to a "religion based" school, then
that
is a choice that the parent makes and has a right to make and the decision
of that parent will be made in the knowledge of the religious education that
the child will be expected to receive there.
> > > I didn't see the programme concerned, but Asmal has one of the
> more
> > > impressive records in relation to his ministerial duties. I
> hope he
> > > intends to continue in a similar vein.
>
> > I do not. His performance on that show was extremely worrying.
>
> Hmm. I didn't see the programme.
The Tim Modise Show, is a radio programme, not a TV show, broadcast, with
public
participation, between 08,30 and 10,00, on weekdays on SAfM.
> Why haven't they been workshopped, upgraded or retrained? I teach
> quite a bit of first aid at various schools and nearly all the
> schools where I have taught have staff rooms so filled with notices
> of these various workshops that one can't turn around without seeing
> one.
The administration in this Province (Eastern Cape) do not even know who
their employees are, let alone providing workshops, seminars etc. There are
still schools which, at this time in the year have not received text books
which should have been available in January. The list of failings could go
on and on, but suffice it to say that actual, proper, administration and
oversight on teaching is non-existent.
> Perhaps the Eastern Cape administration is particularly tardy in
> this regard? Judging from the national matric results it is
> possible that the Northern Province, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape
> are lagging behind in various things which national government is
> demanding.
The Eastern Cape represents a considerable number of people and the
administration of education is, to all intents and purposes, non-existent.
How it is proposed that the new system will be implemented might be
considered to be a mystery,except that the ex-Model "C" Schools are still
operating well, if under some unnecessary stresses and pressures and the
teaching staff is generally competent and able to cope with the planned
changes. The impact of the new curriculum is likely to be in such
establishments and since it represents what it amounts to as a "general
dumbing down" in order to achieve conformity, it will be a disaster, because
it is these schools, overwhelmingly, with the capacity to make things
happen. If
this is tampered with by stressing conformity rather than achievement, then
we are in for an even rougher ride in the future.
> > It is not the adaptation of a curriculum that is an admission of
> > incompetence, it is the current administration of education that
> >is massively incompetent. When a deputy headmaster of a junior
> >school,in Engcobo District can get away with impregnating two
> > girls per annum for ten years and not a thing is done about it,
> > until yesterday after huge press pressure, how many more,
> > less heinous, deficiencies go completely
> > unremarked?
> Well, that's not the fault of the people drafting national syllabus
> requirements. It's a jolly disgrace that teachers and headmasters
> are so badly behaved, but hardly the fault of their colleagues. Can
> you imagine how you'd feel if I screamed that all teachers in the
> Eastern Cape should have a month's salary docked to cover the
> lying-in costs of the mothers?
It is the fault of the people proposing to introduce a new and radically
different syllabus, if they completely ignore the question of how it is
going to be implemented.
> Action should start at local level. The will of the people *is*
> important when one has parents toytoying outside the school.
The "people" who would toyi-toyi have no idea what this is all about and in
most of the rural areas and town ships here in the Eastern Cape have no
interest whatsoever in what goes on in the schools. If they did show any
interest it could make quite a difference.
> > To expect such a maladministered organisation to introduce,
> implement, and
> > control a brand new curriculum is not in any way realistic.
>
> Well, I suggest that the curriculum is not the problem. Whatever it
> is, it's probably not being taught by the majority of teachers.
Naturally it is not being taught yet. That is because the teachers who are
supposed to be teaching it have no idea what it is all about. The proposals
contained in Asmal's 11000 documents have not even been received in most
cases, let alone read, understood and introduced. He is still to hold his
"Consultative Meeting" in Cape Town and only after that will the
introduction start. That is why it is called "Curriculum 2005".
> > The only comforting feature about this whole exercise is
> > that the monumental incompetence of government to properly
> >administer education will mean that their capacity
> > for monitoring the performance of educators will be no better then
> > than it is now.
> That's not a comfort. That's a reason for home education by those
> who are competent to undertake it.
The "Home Educators" are going to be required to conform to the new
Curriculum and this new curriculum, conflicts with the beliefs and values of
many of those who would be home educators (precisely because they regard
achievement and excellence as worthwhile and conformity, as an end result,
unacceptable). I think that there is a conflict with the Constitution, which
the new Curriculum is supposed to be intended to imprint in the minds of all
children, in that the rights of parents to teach their children as they see
fit, rather than as the state sees fit, are going to be removed.
Mark Richardson
Andrew
>
> Andrew, the above was not written by me. The attribution is wrong.
> Please sort it out in your mind. My reply would only have had two >
> > markers in *this* post.
Sorry, I knew it hadn't been, just attributed wrong. Sorry :)
Andrew
Andrew
I know, my mistake
Andrew
NC
>
> I know, my mistake
Will someone put this young lad right. Admitting to making a mistake AND an
apology. What is the newsgroup coming to? :-)
Moira de Swardt
NC <eg...@connect.ab.ca> wrote in message
> "Andrew" <andre...@usa.net> wrote in message
> > I know, my mistake
> Will someone put this young lad right. Admitting to making a
mistake AND an
> apology. What is the newsgroup coming to? :-)
My influence again, I hope?
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Steve Hayes
Newsgroups: za.schools
Subject: !ONSLAUGHT ON OUR CHILDREN CONTINUES
From: "Stephen Hayes" <Stephen.Hayesp...@fmlynet.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2001 05:58:16
FamilyNet Newsgate
Moira de Swardt wrote in a message to Moira de Swardt:
MdS> From: "Moira de Swardt" <moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz>
MdS> Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> <moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote:
> I thought that the whole aim of "Outcomes-based Education" was
MdS> that results
> ("outcomes") WERE important. The aim was to deprive teachers of
MdS> the old excuse
> "We taught them that but they didn't learn it" (which is
MdS> Input-based
> Education).
MdS> We've had this discussion before on this forum. Same
MdS> participants, too, I think.
I seem to remember that, yes.
MdS> The outcomes can be nothing more than desirable outcomes. The
MdS> truth is that much education is based on "input" and people will
MdS> only learn what they want to learn, or at least what they are
MdS> willing to learn.
True. It's simply a matter of what you are measuring to decide what the
outcome
is, and measure it against what you desire.
> The document itself looks like just one more reason for not voting
MdS> for the
> ACDP. Every time I'm tempted to vote for them they produce
MdS> something like
> that, which reminds me why I don't.
MdS> You've been tempted to vote for them? I find them horribly
MdS> fundamentalist, hateful people. Questions involving the death
MdS> sentence, abortion (I've always been puzzled by the particular
MdS> linking fundamentalists have on the aforementioned),
MdS> homosexuality, women's place in society etc. are complicated
MdS> contextually by time and place. I cannot even consider voting for
MdS> people who would impose a theocracy if they had the power to do
MdS> so.
The temptations have been rather fleeting, and dispelled by the literature
they've issued immediately before the election, which looks like leftover
propaganda financed by Connie Mulder's former Department of Information. In
fact it is.
Their last minute stuff is often written by one Edward Cain, who was an
ultra-rightwing looney, way to the right of the Nats (Connie Mulder parted
company with them). I don't think they are all like that, however, which is
why
they speak with mixed voices. I think there are some ingenuous sould who think
that anything with the label "Christian" must be good, and fail to realise
that
it is simply a baited hook.
> For myself, after seeing the evils of Christian National
MdS> Education, I believe
> that "religious education" has no place in state schools.
MdS> I suspect that most deeply religious people would agree with you
MdS> on this one. Religious education is rightly the function of the
MdS> parents, not the church, the state or even religious schools.
Which is how Christianity survived in the USSR.
> The whole OBE thing
> was far too ambitious for South African schools. It requires a lot
MdS> of highly
> qualified teachers, not ones whose brains have been turned to mush
MdS> by 40 years
> of CNE. And in addition, the government laid off the older and
MdS> more
> experienced teachers (ie those who qualified before CNE became
MdS> ubiquitous),
> saying that there were too many teachers. That was a good way of
MdS> ensuring that
> education remained in the same sorry mess that it was under the
MdS> Nats, and that
> any attempts at "transformation" would fail.
MdS> Interesting. There *are* still some good teachers out there, but
MdS> many of the best ones have been lured out to big business or
MdS> forced out to other avenues. I know at least four former
MdS> teachers who reckon they earn three times the money with much less
MdS> work in the world of banking. Several former teachers are
MdS> ministers of
MdS> religion, some of whom reckon that its no less lucrative nor
MdS> demanding than teaching.
I'm sure there are, but a lot of the more experienced ones were pressured into
taking early retirement because of a "surplus".
> And if the whole thing was too ambitious, then religious education
MdS> is even
> more so. Where are they going to get the teachers who can do that
MdS> sort of
> thing?
MdS> I'm not sure that the requirements of the syllabus are actually
MdS> very demanding. I assume there are teachers' guides available
MdS> with the actual information. The web has all that information -
MdS> and more - at the click of a mouse.
How many schools have web connections, or even computers?
> In the CNE days, religious education was a farce. In many schools
MdS> it was left
> to the teachers who liked that kind of thing, and most of those
MdS> who liked that
> kind of thing had some kind of sectarian hobby-horse to ride. Kids
MdS> from one
> high school (in Durban) were forever complaining to me about the
MdS> kind of stuff
> their Mormon religious education teacher was teaching them. My own
MdS> kids had a
> Seventh-Day Adventist in primary school.
MdS> And I'm sure it didn't harm any of them. Children tend to know
MdS> they are being bullied and to resist accordingly.
It wasn't necessarily being bullied, just misinformed. And one can still see
the effects of Nat indoctrination on people, even sometimes in opinions
expressed on this newsgroup.
> This is not to say that kids should learn nothing of different
MdS> religions at
> state schools -- but let them learn them in history and geography.
MdS> It's hard
> to study the history of India without learning something about
MdS> Hinduism and
> Buddhism and Islam. It's hard to learn the history of the Near
MdS> East without
> learning something about Judaism and Christianity and Islam. And
MdS> so on. Let it
> be taught by history teachers who even if they do have a sectarian
MdS> axe to
> grind, can at least temper it by the constraints of their
MdS> discipline.
MdS> It would appear, from the context of the original post, to form
MdS> part of social studies, not "Religious Instruction" as we knew it.
MdS> And I think it is a good thing, not a bad thing to do some basic
MdS> comparative studies very early in life.
Agreed. I don't think it's a threat. But I hope they don't retain religious
instruction as such in state schools, even it it may temporarily increase
unemployment among members of the DROB (Dutch Reformed Old Boys Club) who are
pushing for it.
Incidentally, your message didn't make it to my regular news server -- I got
it
via my BBS.
Keep well
Steve Hayes
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
FamilyNet <> Internet Gated Mail
http://www.fmlynet.org
Moira de Swardt
Huh? Oh, OK, I think?
> Subject: !ONSLAUGHT ON OUR CHILDREN CONTINUES
> From: "Stephen Hayes" <Stephen.Hayesp...@fmlynet.org>
> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2001 05:58:16
> FamilyNet Newsgate
> Moira de Swardt wrote in a message to Moira de Swardt:
Huh?
Relieved to hear that.
> Their last minute stuff is often written by one Edward Cain, who
was an
> ultra-rightwing looney, way to the right of the Nats (Connie
Mulder parted
> company with them). I don't think they are all like that, however,
which is
> why
> they speak with mixed voices. I think there are some ingenuous
sould who think
> that anything with the label "Christian" must be good, and fail to
realise
> that
> it is simply a baited hook.
I think that's a by-product of a system which didn't encourage
people to question the status quo. I'm trying to teach my nieces
about the various publishers, and the reputations that they
establish for themselves, and then how to evaluate whether the
publisher measures up to what they have come to expect from that
publisher. My niece who's twelve seems to have cottoned on to the
idea.
> > For myself, after seeing the evils of Christian National
> MdS> Education, I believe
> > that "religious education" has no place in state schools.
> MdS> I suspect that most deeply religious people would agree with
you
> MdS> on this one. Religious education is rightly the function of
the
> MdS> parents, not the church, the state or even religious
schools.
> Which is how Christianity survived in the USSR.
<Snip>
> MdS> Interesting. There *are* still some good teachers out
there, but
> MdS> many of the best ones have been lured out to big business or
> MdS> forced out to other avenues. I know at least four former
> MdS> teachers who reckon they earn three times the money with
much less
> MdS> work in the world of banking. Several former teachers are
> MdS> ministers of
> MdS> religion, some of whom reckon that its no less lucrative nor
> MdS> demanding than teaching.
> I'm sure there are, but a lot of the more experienced ones were
pressured into
> taking early retirement because of a "surplus".
Sad.
<Snip>
> MdS> I'm not sure that the requirements of the syllabus are
actually
> MdS> very demanding. I assume there are teachers' guides
available
> MdS> with the actual information. The web has all that
information -
> MdS> and more - at the click of a mouse.
> How many schools have web connections, or even computers?
I'm not sure. All, or at least most of the city ones would have
access, if not computers, I should imagine. I'm rather ininformed
about the situation at rural schools, particularly South African
rural schools. I have visited two rural Swazi schools. This is two
more than in South Africa other than my own denomination's schools.
<Snip>
> MdS> And I'm sure it didn't harm any of them. Children tend to
know
> MdS> they are being bullied and to resist accordingly.
> It wasn't necessarily being bullied, just misinformed. And one can
still see
> the effects of Nat indoctrination on people, even sometimes in
opinions
> expressed on this newsgroup.
Interestingly the Nationalists politics sucked, and the practical
application of theology was a travesty, but doctrinally the
Calvinists of the NGK persuasion are not *too* offensive. Coming
from an Armenian background, I am. :-)
<Snip>
> MdS> It would appear, from the context of the original post, to
form
> MdS> part of social studies, not "Religious Instruction" as we
knew it.
> MdS> And I think it is a good thing, not a bad thing to do some
basic
> MdS> comparative studies very early in life.
> Agreed. I don't think it's a threat. But I hope they don't retain
religious
> instruction as such in state schools, even it it may temporarily
increase
> unemployment among members of the DROB (Dutch Reformed Old Boys
Club) who are
> pushing for it.
Ah! They do have a surplus of clergy at the moment. They've been
trying to find sponsorship for them to work in the Emergency
Services Chaplaincy simply so that they can be gainfully employed.
I serve in this capacity in Swaziland as a volunteer.
> Incidentally, your message didn't make it to my regular news
server -- I got
> it
> via my BBS.
Good heavens. I've been trying to subscribe to the Phileo group,
without success. I've managed to send myself a post!!!!
I'll believe anything about BBS now.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Steve Hayes
<moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote:
>> Their last minute stuff is often written by one Edward Cain, who
>was an
>> ultra-rightwing looney, way to the right of the Nats (Connie
>Mulder parted
>> company with them). I don't think they are all like that, however,
>which is
>> why
>> they speak with mixed voices. I think there are some ingenuous
>sould who think
>> that anything with the label "Christian" must be good, and fail to
>realise
>> that
>> it is simply a baited hook.
>
>I think that's a by-product of a system which didn't encourage
>people to question the status quo. I'm trying to teach my nieces
>about the various publishers, and the reputations that they
>establish for themselves, and then how to evaluate whether the
>publisher measures up to what they have come to expect from that
>publisher. My niece who's twelve seems to have cottoned on to the
>idea.
Possibly, but I think it's more widespread than that -- how do urban legends
spread so widely, and keep resurfacing? The Procter & Gamble "satanic symbol"
one is a perennial among gullible Christians, not only in South Africa, but in
other countries too.
>> MdS> I'm not sure that the requirements of the syllabus are
>actually
>> MdS> very demanding. I assume there are teachers' guides
>available
>> MdS> with the actual information. The web has all that
>information -
>> MdS> and more - at the click of a mouse.
>
>> How many schools have web connections, or even computers?
>
>I'm not sure. All, or at least most of the city ones would have
>access, if not computers, I should imagine. I'm rather ininformed
>about the situation at rural schools, particularly South African
>rural schools. I have visited two rural Swazi schools. This is two
>more than in South Africa other than my own denomination's schools.
I think most of the city schools in the wealthier suburbs may have computers,
but I think even in the towns many of the schools in poorer areas don't.
><Snip>
>
>> MdS> And I'm sure it didn't harm any of them. Children tend to
>know
>> MdS> they are being bullied and to resist accordingly.
>
>> It wasn't necessarily being bullied, just misinformed. And one can
>still see
>> the effects of Nat indoctrination on people, even sometimes in
>opinions
>> expressed on this newsgroup.
>
>Interestingly the Nationalists politics sucked, and the practical
>application of theology was a travesty, but doctrinally the
>Calvinists of the NGK persuasion are not *too* offensive. Coming
>from an Armenian background, I am. :-)
What I found interesting was that the theologically conservative ones were
more politically liberal, and vice versa.
>> MdS> It would appear, from the context of the original post, to
>form
>> MdS> part of social studies, not "Religious Instruction" as we
>knew it.
>> MdS> And I think it is a good thing, not a bad thing to do some
>basic
>> MdS> comparative studies very early in life.
>
>> Agreed. I don't think it's a threat. But I hope they don't retain
>religious
>> instruction as such in state schools, even it it may temporarily
>increase
>> unemployment among members of the DROB (Dutch Reformed Old Boys
>Club) who are
>> pushing for it.
>
>Ah! They do have a surplus of clergy at the moment. They've been
>trying to find sponsorship for them to work in the Emergency
>Services Chaplaincy simply so that they can be gainfully employed.
>I serve in this capacity in Swaziland as a volunteer.
In the past, the theology faculty at Unisa absorbed many of those who had
dropped out, because of marital problems, loss of faith etc. They gravitated
towards the departments of Old and New Testament, where they had a nice gravy
train while Biblical Instruction remained a compulsort subject in state
schools. Students (who were employed by the education departments as teachers)
saw it as an easy option, and so could get a BEd with Biblical Instruction and
some other slush subject, and improve their qualifications, and thus their
salaries. Those who saw which way the wind was blowing politically moved early
to the Religious Studies department, and started agitating to usurp the role.
That's a bit cynical and over-simplified, but it is more or less what
happened.
>> Incidentally, your message didn't make it to my regular news
>server -- I got
>> it
>> via my BBS.
>
>Good heavens. I've been trying to subscribe to the Phileo group,
>without success. I've managed to send myself a post!!!!
>I'll believe anything about BBS now.
Like to start one in Swaziland - electronic comunications for the masses,
intermediate technology and all that stuff?
See
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/bbs.htm
Moira de Swardt
Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Possibly, but I think it's more widespread than that -- how do
urban legends
> spread so widely, and keep resurfacing? The Procter & Gamble
"satanic symbol"
> one is a perennial among gullible Christians, not only in South
Africa, but in
> other countries too.
Steve, I don't know how these things happen. I have a friend who
has a B.Com. Hons, an MBA, an American Masters' Degree in Computers.
She is generally bright, alert and articulate. She *circulates*
this sort of drivel, including things like "Nokia are giving away a
free cell phone to anyone who sends this e-mail to one hundred
people who don't want - how should I phrase this? - in their in
boxes.
> In the past, the theology faculty at Unisa absorbed many of those
who had
> dropped out, because of marital problems, loss of faith etc. They
gravitated
> towards the departments of Old and New Testament, where they had a
nice gravy
> train while Biblical Instruction remained a compulsort subject in
state
> schools. Students (who were employed by the education departments
as teachers)
> saw it as an easy option, and so could get a BEd with Biblical
Instruction and
> some other slush subject, and improve their qualifications, and
thus their
> salaries. Those who saw which way the wind was blowing politically
moved early
> to the Religious Studies department, and started agitating to
usurp the role.
I did Biblical Studies I because it was a compulsory subject for
B.Th. I did Biblical Studies II because it was a very easy credit
in comparison to the rest. It didn't give me a great deal of
respect for the department. The departments of Church History and
Theological Ethics (that was linked to some other department) were
*much* tougher.
Religious Studies has moved to the Arts Faculty.
> That's a bit cynical and over-simplified, but it is more or less
what
> happened.
By the time I started my B.Th (1992) things were already starting to
move in a more liberal direction in comparison to earlier studies in
the Faculty of Law in the early eighties and the Arts Faculty in the
mid and late seventies.
> Like to start one in Swaziland - electronic comunications for the
masses,
> intermediate technology and all that stuff?
No. Sounds like hard work. I'm already about as committed as I can
cope with. My day starts at 05h55 every alternate week, and 07h00
on the other week. In the week I start at 07h00 I only finish at
17h00 or when everything is balanced, cleaned and locked. In the
the week when I start at 05h55 my day ends at 16h00 unless there is
a crisis, as there was today, when I only returned home at close to
18h00. I do get a tea break and a lunch break. On alternate
Mondays I have an evening meeting from 18h00 to 21h00, as I do on
one Tuesday a month, every Thursday I have *two* meetings, one at
17h30 and one at 19h30. At least one weekend a month I'm in
Johannesburg. On Tuesdays and Thursdays I teach first aid in my
lunch time. On some Wednesdays I conduct a Bible Study in my lunch
time. I have promised to start another Bible Study on Tuesdays -
after the time when my Tuesday meeting *should* be finished. If I
had time I'd like to teach life saving down at the local swimming
pool. I'd also like to work with young out of school girls,
teaching them life skills and helping them to start income
generating projects. *However* I am starting to run out of time ...
I need *some* down time.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Steve Hayes
<moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote:
>
>Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>> Possibly, but I think it's more widespread than that -- how do
>urban legends
>> spread so widely, and keep resurfacing? The Procter & Gamble
>"satanic symbol"
>> one is a perennial among gullible Christians, not only in South
>Africa, but in
>> other countries too.
>
>Steve, I don't know how these things happen. I have a friend who
>has a B.Com. Hons, an MBA, an American Masters' Degree in Computers.
>She is generally bright, alert and articulate. She *circulates*
>this sort of drivel, including things like "Nokia are giving away a
>free cell phone to anyone who sends this e-mail to one hundred
>people who don't want - how should I phrase this? - in their in
>boxes.
I remember when the "rabbit in the thorn tree" u/l was current -- remember
that one? It was that the First National Bank log (which showed a thorn tree)
had a rabbit hidden in it, which showed that the FNB was affiliated to the
ANC.
It later became the title of a book on urban legends by Arthur Goldstuck, and
so became the most famous South African urban legend.
That was around the time that BBSs were young, and most of the people sending
e-mail to each other had to be computer literate in order to get the thing to
work.
But it appeared that they were not literate in other ways, to judge by the
number who swallowed that particular legend.
I questioned it, whenever someone spread it.
I would ask, "What evidence do you have that the ANC uses a rabbit as its
emblem?"
And they would reply, "Just look at the logo, you really can see a rabbit
there" and would often give quite detailed instructions on how to find the
rabbit.
It later became the title of a book on urban legends by Arthur Goldstuck, and
so became the most famous South African urban legend.
We have now had an ANC government for over 7 years, and I'm still waiting for
that particular rabbit to jump out of the hat.
Moira de Swardt
Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> I remember when the "rabbit in the thorn tree" u/l was current --
remember
> that one? It was that the First National Bank log (which showed a
thorn tree)
> had a rabbit hidden in it, which showed that the FNB was
affiliated to the
> ANC.
I remember it.
> It later became the title of a book on urban legends by Arthur
Goldstuck, and
> so became the most famous South African urban legend.
I remember the book, too.
> That was around the time that BBSs were young, and most of the
people sending
> e-mail to each other had to be computer literate in order to get
the thing to
> work.
What are BBSs?
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Simon Slavin
"Moira de Swardt" <moira.d...@africaonline.co.sz> wrote:
> > That was around the time that BBSs were young, and most of the
> people sending
> > e-mail to each other had to be computer literate in order to get
> the thing to
> > work.
>
> What are BBSs?
Bulletin Board Systems -- the precursor to Internet Service
Providers from before it was easy to get on the Internet.
Please note that this thread is cross-posted to alt.folklore.urban
which has a set of rules which bans many acronyms. Please read
the style-guide before posting to that group.
Simon.
--
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk | I have a hunch that [] the unknown sequences
No junk email please. | of DNA [will decode into] copyright notices
| and patent protections. -- Donald E. Knuth
The French Was There.
JohnM
>
>What are BBSs?
Moira!
BBSs were Bulletin Boards. I suppose one could call them earlier
versions of Web sites which required special hardware, lots of modems, a
sysop and a dedicated program running from DOS. There was a magazine
dedicated to the then Netties called Boardwalk which I'm sad to admit I
subscribed to: I had a TBBS (type of BBS) myself once :-)
Ah, those were the days...
--
JohnM - Hi, this time from alt.folklore.urban. You are x-posting again :-)
TeaLady
news:fDnJTPAW...@scroll.demon.co.uk...
I remember BBSs. Belonged to a local one, was a guru at work because
I could find all sorts of documents and applets and programs that no
one else knew about, or where to find. Downloaded tons of stuff,
hours at a time, uploaded tons, hours and hours more. Paid exorbitant
fees when we exceeded the standard hours per month. Just was getting
really good at navigating the BBS and the sysop opened up a door to
the web. I was enthralled, forked over the extra money he requested
(all of $50, I think, for an entire year, time limited access, of
course). Then Hubby found out about the net. As we had 1 computer
back then (he has 5 now. I have 1. We are capitalist pigs) and it was
*his*, I lost access. Couldn't access from work anymore - the spare
phone line was taken over and I had no way to access the BBS or the
net.
So I was an old timer, once upon a time, but lost a lot of years
waiting to get a turn at the box. Now I am a newbie again - only been
online for 3 years, only watching/reading newsgroups for 1 1/2, only
participating for a few months.
TeaLady
--
This is an important experiment, because it proves, scientifically,
that it would be a big mistake, no matter how tempting it may be,
for us to try to build rockets using vacuum cleaners powered by
propane. (Dave Barry, Miami News Herald, 10/11/2001)
Moira de Swardt
> >What are BBSs?
> JohnM - Hi, this time from alt.folklore.urban. You are x-posting
again :-)
Swdi, I support cross posting. How else does one find interesting
newsgroups?
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Ferdi Greyling
wrote:
<<>And they would reply, "Just look at the logo, you really can see a
rabbit
>there" and would often give quite detailed instructions on how to find the
>rabbit. >>
He,he..
Today some still see a hammer and a sickle in there too.
Steve Hayes
For BBSs, see
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/bbs.htm
I sent this to Arthur Goldstuck, and had an interesting reply from him.
"The rabbit was indeed a symbol of the ANC - but from the perspective of the
police in Kwazulu-Natal. In the days of the comrades and the vigilantes, they
used to go on nighly "hunting" expeditions, ostensibly to go catch rabbits,
which was their slang for comrades."
Mel
news:ZKMz7.186$lY5.2...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> I remember BBSs. Belonged to a local one, was a guru at work because
> I could find all sorts of documents and applets and programs that no
> one else knew about, or where to find. Downloaded tons of stuff,
> hours at a time, uploaded tons, hours and hours more. Paid exorbitant
> fees when we exceeded the standard hours per month. Just was getting
> really good at navigating the BBS and the sysop opened up a door to
> the web. I was enthralled, forked over the extra money he requested
> (all of $50, I think, for an entire year, time limited access, of
> course). Then Hubby found out about the net. As we had 1 computer
> back then (he has 5 now. I have 1. We are capitalist pigs) and it was
> *his*, I lost access. Couldn't access from work anymore - the spare
> phone line was taken over and I had no way to access the BBS or the
> net.
> So I was an old timer, once upon a time, but lost a lot of years
> waiting to get a turn at the box. Now I am a newbie again - only been
> online for 3 years, only watching/reading newsgroups for 1 1/2, only
> participating for a few months.
welcome back! :-)
--
Smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
You will pay for your sins. If you have already paid, please disregard this
message.