Sunday morning
Moira de Swardt
seven. Then I discovered that he hadn't come home. I understand that he
did evenutally get home for lunch.
A quick bath for me and some dry food for the cat was all I had time for
before dressing for early morning mass.
This particular mass was an unmitigated disaster. The assistant priest both
celebrated and preached. Either is a trial, both is a form of penance which
serves as expiation of sins greater than any I committed this week and I'm
throwing a great deal of uncharitability into that mix. Although I suppose
his sermon was no worse than any of a dozen others I've had to endure. The
real mess was the liturgical minister who is strange and to add to his
problems he left his reading spectacles at home. Although this doesn't
explain why he pronounced the absolution. At that point one of the wardens
took over. I lodged a request after the service that the particular
offendee not be allowed to lead worship again. I have made this request
before, though, so I don't hold out much hope. Christians can be quite
charitable at times.
After the service I went home to collect my watch and cell phone, both left
behind in my haste this morning. I now fed the cat properly for those who
were concerned about her welfare.
I then headed out to the office. On the way an old man walking in Kingsway
Avenue held up his hand imploringly. I drove past him and then circled
back, doing two u-turns to pull up beside him. Turns out he missed his bus
to Sophiatown and couldn't get to the Greek Orthodox Church there. I gave
him a lift, thinking of Steve Hayes as I did so. Steve suggested I might be
interested in visiting that particular church to see the style and icons. I
didn't interrupt the service, but stared from the back. Also visited a
little side chapel.
My boss and I did some work and then I went shopping for him while he went
off to the airport for yet another business trip. He's left me mountains of
work for next week which is only a four day in office week as I'm attending
a one day seminar with my ex-boyfriend, the economist, on HIV and AIDS and
the impact on the economy. That should be pleasant as a social occasion,
the gravity of the subject notwithstanding.
Some months back I was talking to a young Muslim medical student from
Mayfair and I mentioned that I sometimes ate at the "best Indian restaurant
in town". He said "Bismillah"s?" I shook my head and he then said "The
Taj Palace?" which is where I eat quite often. I made a note to try
Bismillah's, an undertaking which I honoured today for lunch. I had the
chicken korma with a double helping of garlic naan. I'm sure I now won't be
able to smell whether Peter has been similarly indulging in the correct
quantity of garlic.
Hmm. I'm now sleepy. I think I may head off home for a post-prandial nap.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
news:c8q41f$g2b$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> I have made this request
> before, though, so I don't hold out much hope. Christians can be quite
> charitable at times.
>
>
> Some months back I was talking to a young Muslim medical student from
> Mayfair and I mentioned that I sometimes ate at the "best Indian
restaurant
> in town". He said "Bismillah"s?" I shook my head and he then said "The
> Taj Palace?" which is where I eat quite often. I made a note to try
> Bismillah's, an undertaking which I honoured today for lunch. I had the
> chicken korma with a double helping of garlic naan. I'm sure I now won't
be
> able to smell whether Peter has been similarly indulging in the correct
> quantity of garlic.
>
is now the best Indian in Cape Town. To be fair we had lunch at the Bukhara
a week or so ago and it wasn't bad, not bad at all, at least compared to the
dreadful food I had the last time I went (three years ago) - it isn't a
patch on the Jaipur Palace though.
I visited the palace in Jaipur too, with my brother some years back, it is a
hotel now, but very impressive - we met an old University friend of his,
Juggat Jaipur who would have been the Maharaja if they still had them - he
was a pleasant chap and gave us a few beers while we looked at photographs
of him playing polo with Charles Windsor and so forth.
--
The telephone current is a phenomenon of the ether, say the theorists. But
what is ether? No one knows. Sir Oliver Lodge has guessed that it is
"perhaps the only substantial thing in the material universe"; but no one
knows. - The History of the Telephone, Herbet Casson 1910
Moira de Swardt
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> "Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
> > I have made this request
> > before, though, so I don't hold out much hope. Christians can be quite
> > charitable at times.
> What is charitable about forcing people to listen to guff?
Hmm. Hadn't thought of it from that angle.
> I have just returned from lunch with my father at the Jaipur Palace -
which
> is now the best Indian in Cape Town. To be fair we had lunch at the
Bukhara
> a week or so ago and it wasn't bad, not bad at all, at least compared to
the
> dreadful food I had the last time I went (three years ago) - it isn't a
> patch on the Jaipur Palace though.
> I visited the palace in Jaipur too, with my brother some years back, it is
a
> hotel now, but very impressive - we met an old University friend of his,
> Juggat Jaipur who would have been the Maharaja if they still had them - he
> was a pleasant chap and gave us a few beers while we looked at photographs
> of him playing polo with Charles Windsor and so forth.
I have India on my list of places I'd like to visit.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
>
> > I visited the palace in Jaipur too, with my brother some years back, it
is
> a
> > hotel now, but very impressive - we met an old University friend of his,
> > Juggat Jaipur who would have been the Maharaja if they still had them -
he
> > was a pleasant chap and gave us a few beers while we looked at
photographs
> > of him playing polo with Charles Windsor and so forth.
>
> I have India on my list of places I'd like to visit.
>
system and are not too distressed by deliberately maimed beggars and lepers.
--
First--That pleasure which produces no pain is to be embraced.
Second--That pain which produces no pleasure is to be avoided.
Third--That pleasure is to be avoided which prevents a greater
pleasure, or produces a greater pain.
Fourth--That pain is to be endured which averts a greater pain, or
secures a greater pleasure - Monsieur de l'Enclos
Camel
<PLONK>
Your pretentiousness is an embarrassment to the human race.
________
Regards,
Camel
________
_____
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Camel" <fr...@amph.com> wrote in message
news:ueo1b0l6lua0j5spn...@4ax.com...
>
> Your pretentiousness is an embarrassment to the human race.
>
you behave politely other people will treat you the same way.
--
"The moral of the tale is this: whoever allows himself to be
whipped, deserves to be whipped.
"The blows, as you see, have agreed with me; the roseate supersensual
mist has dissolved, and no one can ever make me believe again that
these 'sacred apes of Benares' or Plato's rooster are the image of God." -
Venus in Furs
by Leopold von Sacher-Masoch
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>As usual I woke up at five and read until I could risk waking Mark at about
>seven. Then I discovered that he hadn't come home. I understand that he
>did evenutally get home for lunch.
>
>A quick bath for me and some dry food for the cat was all I had time for
>before dressing for early morning mass.
>
>This particular mass was an unmitigated disaster. The assistant priest both
>celebrated and preached. Either is a trial, both is a form of penance which
>serves as expiation of sins greater than any I committed this week and I'm
>throwing a great deal of uncharitability into that mix. Although I suppose
>his sermon was no worse than any of a dozen others I've had to endure. The
>real mess was the liturgical minister who is strange and to add to his
>problems he left his reading spectacles at home. Although this doesn't
>explain why he pronounced the absolution. At that point one of the wardens
>took over. I lodged a request after the service that the particular
>offendee not be allowed to lead worship again. I have made this request
>before, though, so I don't hold out much hope. Christians can be quite
>charitable at times.
After the hectic discusions with alt.usage.english, I think I should point out
that you appear to be the offendee :-)
>
>Hmm. I'm now sleepy. I think I may head off home for a post-prandial nap.
Did you ever take up that LiveJournal thingy?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
conciliator
>
> "Camel" <fr...@amph.com> wrote in message
> news:ueo1b0l6lua0j5spn...@4ax.com...
> >
> > Your pretentiousness is an embarrassment to the human race.
> >
> You don't have to be embarrassed by having been dragged up in a
swamp - if
> you behave politely other people will treat you the same way.
>
>
> --
he belongs in a swamp - hence his (false) address.
Moira de Swardt
> > I have India on my list of places I'd like to visit.
> It is a wonderful place, particularly if you have a cast-iron digestive
> system and are not too distressed by deliberately maimed beggars and
lepers.
Cast-iron digestive system and a very hard heart. I could probably even
drink "Delhi's finest" and cope, although I won't. I've worked with
indigents for too long to be squeamish about poverty.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> After the hectic discusions with alt.usage.english, I think I should point
out
> that you appear to be the offendee :-)
Oops! Yes.
> >Hmm. I'm now sleepy. I think I may head off home for a post-prandial
nap.
I'm blaming the after lunch sleepiness.
> Did you ever take up that LiveJournal thingy?
No. Too much like hard work. I'm busy with some more UNISA courses and
trying to make a living - causing me some grey hairs at the moment. Job is
in the process of folding and a very good friend who knows the situation
told me to worry.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
just to get acclimatised, then bottled water the second and tap water the
third. On the third day I also went down to the market in Delhi and bought
some samoosas from a stall - just to make sure that the tum wasn't giving me
a false impression of coping on effete hotel food. There wasn't, of course,
a cholera epidemic on at the time.
--
'It is quite a dark day' - Emma, on opening the curtains to prove that night
is in fact day
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
news:c8s1sb$rde$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
>
> No. Too much like hard work. I'm busy with some more UNISA courses and
> trying to make a living - causing me some grey hairs at the moment. Job
is
> in the process of folding and a very good friend who knows the situation
> told me to worry.
>
--
"Just think," she buzzed inconsequently, "my sister in Cambridgeshire has
hatched out thirty-three White Orpington chickens in her incubator!"
"What eggs did she put in it?" asked Francesca.
"Oh, some very special strain of White Orpington."
"Then I don't see anything remarkable in the result. If she had put in
crocodile's eggs and hatched out White Orpingtons, there might have been
something to write to Country Life about." - Sake, The Unbearable Bassington
Moira de Swardt
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> I had absolutely no problem with the water there. I had beer the first
day,
> just to get acclimatised, then bottled water the second and tap water the
> third. On the third day I also went down to the market in Delhi and bought
> some samoosas from a stall - just to make sure that the tum wasn't giving
me
> a false impression of coping on effete hotel food. There wasn't, of
course,
> a cholera epidemic on at the time.
Do what the locals of a similar station in life do, I always say. The
Kenyans boil their water in Nairobi but not in some other towns. Each
municipality is responsible for determining whether their water is treated
or not. People now boil their water in Harare.
Cooked food that hasn't stood is usually quite safe especially if it has
been semi-heated in a microwave oven.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
> > No. Too much like hard work. I'm busy with some more UNISA courses and
> > trying to make a living - causing me some grey hairs at the moment. Job
> is
> > in the process of folding and a very good friend who knows the situation
> > told me to worry.
> Just so long as the worry helps matters, why not indulge...
Prompts the trip to get the paper.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
>
> > I had absolutely no problem with the water there. I had beer the first
> day,
> > just to get acclimatised, then bottled water the second and tap water
the
> > third. On the third day I also went down to the market in Delhi and
bought
> > some samoosas from a stall - just to make sure that the tum wasn't
giving
> me
> > a false impression of coping on effete hotel food. There wasn't, of
> course,
> > a cholera epidemic on at the time.
>
> Do what the locals of a similar station in life do, I always say. The
> Kenyans boil their water in Nairobi but not in some other towns. Each
> municipality is responsible for determining whether their water is treated
> or not. People now boil their water in Harare.
>
that I was there.
>
> Cooked food that hasn't stood is usually quite safe especially if it has
> been semi-heated in a microwave oven.
>
than when I was there - there were none then.
--
Some clubs still use the game for a garden-party, where long trailing
skirts, sunshades, and basket chairs predominate. Perhaps a game or two is
played in the cool of the evening. That sort of club should be avoided if
you are a keen and enthusiastic player. - Lawn Tennis for Ladies
Ferdi Greyling
You people are gonna get fat.
Moira de Swardt
"Ferdi Greyling" <NoS...@tome.com> wrote in message
> You people are gonna get fat.
And the problem with that is?
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
> "Ferdi Greyling" <NoS...@tome.com> wrote in message
>
> > You people are gonna get fat.
>
> And the problem with that is?
>
that, though obesity had increased by 61% in the US over the past two
decades and, as expected, hypertension had also increased by a large amount,
general mortality and mortality from heart attacks, strokes and so forth
had not increased - thus proving that the link betwen obesity and death had
been vastly over stated. It is an interesting observation.
conciliator
Not good for the heart, girl. Has to work too much hard, as the saying
goes. :>)
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>> Do what the locals of a similar station in life do, I always say. The
>> Kenyans boil their water in Nairobi but not in some other towns. Each
>> municipality is responsible for determining whether their water is treated
>> or not. People now boil their water in Harare.
>>
>I found the water in Nairobi quite potable and drank tapwater for the month
>that I was there.
I think I did too, but not in Moscow or Tirana.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:56:35 +0200, "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za>
> wrote:
>
> >> Do what the locals of a similar station in life do, I always say. The
> >> Kenyans boil their water in Nairobi but not in some other towns. Each
> >> municipality is responsible for determining whether their water is
treated
> >> or not. People now boil their water in Harare.
> >>
> >I found the water in Nairobi quite potable and drank tapwater for the
month
> >that I was there.
>
> I think I did too, but not in Moscow or Tirana.
>
particularly liked the taste of the apples, they hadn't any high-technology
sprays so relied on old, knobbly varieties that were very tasty.
Talk of Albania makes me a little sad, just a few days ago I discovered the
amphora that I bought in Volre had had one of its arms smashed by the
movers - it is, of course, virtually irreplacable, albeit that it probably
cost me less than a pound to buy.
Jordan
>
> Funny you should ask that! A recent article in the New Scientist pointed out
> that, though obesity had increased by 61% in the US over the past two
> decades and, as expected, hypertension had also increased by a large amount,
> general mortality and mortality from heart attacks, strokes and so forth
> had not increased - thus proving that the link betwen obesity and death had
> been vastly over stated. It is an interesting observation.
>
Could it be that obesity (like HIV) is not an instant killer? Maybe it
is a life shortener. Maybe the die off will start in earnest 10 years or
so down the line, yes?
Jordan
>
> There probably are a lot more microwave ovens in the market in Delhi now
> than when I was there - there were none then.
>
Here I am wondering why you are such a compulsive name dropper? Are you
sure you have ever left the confines of Cape Town?
Moira de Swardt
"Jordan" <J...@nadroj.net> wrote in message
> Could it be that obesity (like HIV) is not an instant killer? Maybe it
> is a life shortener. Maybe the die off will start in earnest 10 years or
> so down the line, yes?
Obesity is linked to hypertension, diabetes and high cholestrol. All three
are linked to heart disease.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
Lots of people have travelled to lots of interesting places. I've never
read any reason to doubt the veracity of Peter's comments. Of course, if
Peter was in Delhi before microwave ovens were invented, or at least
commonplace that would make his visit to Delhi quite a long time back.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
Peter H.M. Brooks
possible motivations can they have?
I was in Delhi in 1987, which is indeed some time ago - hence my point.
Why do people think that we are lying?? Are they such compulisive liars that
they think that everybody else is?
--
"No!" she replied proudly and mockingly, "but I have the whip."
She drew it quickly from the pocket of her fur-coat, and struck him
in the face with the handle. He rose, and drew back a couple of paces. -
"Venus in Furs" Leopold von Sacher-Masoch
Peter H.M. Brooks
"
Why our fears about fat are misplaced
New Scientist vol 182 issue 2445 - 01 May 2004, page 20
The war on obesity is based not on sound science but on medical
self-interest and cultural hysteria, argues Paul Campos
FAT, flab, adipose tissue: call it what you will, it is one of the great
obsessions of our age. In the early 1980s, stories about obesity were
running in the world's major English-language media at the modest rate of
about one per week. By 2003, reports sociologist Abigail Saguy from the
University of California at Los Angeles, the figure had expanded to nearly
20 per day. We are in the throes of an unprecedented "obesity epidemic",
doctors, scientists and health organisations repeatedly tell us.
Well, people certainly have been getting fatter in many countries. But
here's the conundrum: overall health and life expectancy in these nations
continues to improve. Take the US. Between 1990 and 2002 life expectancy
here rose from 75.2 to 77.4 years, even though the nation's obesity rate
rose, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, by 61 per
cent. Indeed over that same period, the incidence of type 2 diabetes, the
supposed bête noire of rising obesity levels, hardly changed, while death
rates from heart disease, hypertension and some cancers actually dropped.
Perhaps the timebomb has yet to go off: public health officials often claim
we are "about" to see the devastating consequences of obesity. Yet their
predecessors were making the same claims 50 years ago - and indeed according
to current definitions nearly half the American population was overweight as
long ago as 1960.
So what else is going on that might explain the conundrum? In the past few
years I have been taking a close look at the claims of those who warn of the
supposedly impending global calamity of the obesity epidemic. I have sought
out the studies and findings behind the public health pronouncements, and
canvassed views from a wide range of experts on what they really reveal.
What I have found may prove hard for some to swallow: save for exceptions
involving truly extreme cases, the medical literature simply does not
support the claim that higher than average weight is a significant
independent health risk.
What it actually demonstrates is, first, that the association between
increased weight and increased health risk is weak, and disappears
altogether when confounding variables are taken into account; and second,
that public health programmes which attempt to make "overweight" and "obese"
people thinner are, for a variety of reasons, likely to do more harm than
good. In short, the current war on fat is an irrational outburst of cultural
hysteria, unsupported by sound science.
Sceptical? Here are some statistics from what was, in the 1980s, the world's
largest ever epidemiological study. From records of nearly 2 million
Norwegians spanning a decade, it found the highest life expectancy among
people with a body mass index (BMI) of 26 to 28 - people who were solidly
overweight, according to definitions now used by, among others, the World
Health Organization and the American public health establishment.
Furthermore, the study found people with a BMI of 18 to 20 (almost all of
whom these same institutions would classify as "ideally thin") had a lower
life expectancy than those with BMIs between 34 and 36: who under current
classifications were 60 to 75 pounds (25 to 35 kilograms) overweight, and
therefore seriously obese.
As my book The Obesity Myth describes in detail, these statistics are
typical of such studies. Large-scale studies consistently find little or no
increase in mortality risk associated with weight, except at statistical
extremes. Indeed, many such studies find the lowest mortality rates among
supposedly overweight people, and a higher mortality risk among people who
are five pounds "underweight" than among those who are supposedly 75 pounds
overweight. And even these modest associations disappear when variables
other than weight are taken into account. BMI figures correlate with
increased mortality risk only among sedentary individuals: people who
maintain quite modest activity levels show no such correlation.
But aren't fat people who slim down and stay slim healthier in the long run?
Nobody can say, because no long-term study has tested the notion. And why
not? For the simple reason that researchers have been unable to produce
significant long-term weight loss in statistically meaningful numbers of
people. Researchers repeatedly find instead that for the vast majority of
people the long-term result of attempts to lose weight is "weight cycling" -
repeatedly losing weight and then putting it on again. And that, as numerous
studies have found, is no recipe for long-term health. For example, the
famous Framingham study in the US found a strong correlation between weight
cycling and mortality, and no increased risk among obese people who did not
weight cycle.
Given all this, how do the public health officials who wage the increasingly
intense war on fat support their arguments? The answer should disturb anyone
who believes science is immune to the effects of economic and ideological
bias. For on close inspection, the current panic over obesity is based on a
severe distortion of scientific data.
The distortion tends to take one of three common forms. The first goes to
the heart of the nature of epidemiology, which is, in the words of Harvard
researcher Charles Hennekens, "a crude and inexact science".
Epidemiologists, he says, "tend to overstate findings, either because we
want attention or more grant money". (Ironically it is Hennekens whose work
has been exploited by some of the worst fomenters of fat panic.)
Large-scale observational studies can never control for more than a few of
the many factors that might explain the associations they observe between
risk factors and disease, so epidemiologists who are careful not to
overstate their findings will point to the dangers of attributing causal
significance to small risk associations. A common rule of thumb is to view
with suspicion any factor that fails to at least double relative risk,
especially when the baseline risk is small.
Yet in the case of obesity, such caution is routinely abandoned. Health
officials and researchers all too often treat small risks as presumptively
causal. One recent study, for example, found a 13 per cent increased risk of
post-menopausal breast cancer associated with being overweight. It added up
to just one extra death per 10,000 "overweight" women per year. The authors
still treated the finding as strong evidence of a causal relationship
between weight and cancer.
A second way in which health officials - and some researchers - routinely
distort the facts on obesity is through ignoring confounding variables.
There is overwhelming evidence that many causes of ill-health
disproportionately affect the heavier than average - sedentary lifestyle,
nutrition, weight cycling, poverty, access to and discrimination in
healthcare, social discrimination generally. Yet many prominent obesity
researchers prefer instead to pin the blame exclusively on body fat.
A particularly egregious example of this is a famous study that appeared in
the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 1999, which
concluded that excess weight was killing 300,000 Americans per year. This
"fact" has been cited more than 1700 times in the major English-language
media over the last two years alone. In their statement of methods, the
authors noted: "Our calculations assume that all (controlling for age, sex
and smoking) excess mortality in obese people is due to their adiposity."
While assuming the validity of one's conclusion certainly simplifies the
process of scientific investigation, research ought to be about more than
confirming hypotheses through circular reasoning.
The final distortion is to adopt flexible standards of proof. When those
prosecuting the war on fat encounter findings that appear to confirm their
views, they often dismiss any attempt to question them as ignorant,
irrational or biased. Yet with findings that contradict their views, this
confident positivism vanishes. The contradictory findings are explained away
by an almost endless assortment of methodological caveats.
This leaping back and forth between uncritical faith and profound scepticism
is particularly striking when researchers perform interpretive acrobatics
with their own findings. For example, the authors of a 2003 JAMA study
concluded that it provided compelling evidence of the deadly effects of
higher than average weight. The study actually found negligible mortality
increases among whites with BMIs up to the mid-30s, and no evidence of
elevated mortality rates among black Americans across the "overweight" range
(BMI 25 to 30). Indeed, among black women, no extra mortality risk was
observed until a BMI of 37. But an accompanying editorial, by JoAnn Manson
of the Harvard Medical School, commented that "it would be a great
disservice to blacks if these results were used to promulgate the concept
that excess weight is not harmful to them".
Ultimately, the current panic over increasing body mass has little to do
with science, and everything to do with cultural and political factors that
distort scientific enquiry. Among those factors are greed (consensus panels
put together by organisations such as the WHO that have declared obesity a
major health crisis are often made up wholly of doctors who run diet
clinics), and cultural anxieties about social overconsumption in general.
Consider this. While the average American is about eight pounds heavier than
in 1990, the average American car now weighs several hundred pounds more
than it did in that year. Which statistic has more relevance to the world's
long-term health?
Paul Campos
Paul Campos is a professor of law at the University of Colorado. The Obesity
Myth is published by Gotham Books (www.obesitymyth.com)
"
Ferdi Greyling
<first...@wol.co.za> wrote:
<<>"Ferdi Greyling" <NoS...@tome.com> wrote in message
>
>> You people are gonna get fat.
>
>And the problem with that is?>>
That you are gonna have to get thin again.
Jordan
OK but it remains a "slow" killer as opposed to "as soon as you get fat
you die", yes?
Jordan
Fair comment, now perhaps you would like to speculate about what sort of
mental pathology drives someone to be a "serial"
name-dropper/bragger/showoff (take your pick)?
Peter H.M. Brooks
of somebody else having travelled a little - I generally avoid talking of
places I've been to actually, unless relevant to the conversation, as I know
that other people's holiday stories aren't very interesting. I've only
actually mentioned a very few places I've been to in this group.
Name-dropping generally involves the names of people that some consider
famous or important rather than the names of places.
Like many things, I've found travel a little paradoxical. I had no
particular desire to travel the world, in fact the process of travelling is
generally uncomfortable and boring. As a result, it seems, I've ended up
visiting a considerable number of places and quite enjoyed it.
Moira is correct, I was in Dehli in around 1985. There certainly were
microwave ovens at that time, and in Dehli, but most certainly not in the
street markets - or, if there were any, they were uncommon enough not to
have been visible to me.
Showing off, or bragging, ought to involve attempting to claim some sort of
achievement - simply having visited places is hardly any sort of
accomplishment! I'd have to think you must have lived a very limited or
sheltered life to imagine that.
Moira de Swardt
"Ferdi Greyling" <NoS...@tome.com> wrote in message
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:39:44 +0200, "Moira de Swardt"
> <first...@wol.co.za> wrote:
> <<>"Ferdi Greyling" <NoS...@tome.com> wrote in message
> >> You people are gonna get fat.
> >And the problem with that is?>>
> That you are gonna have to get thin again.
The only thing that one *has* to do is die. Very few people ultimately lose
weight and keep it off.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
> > Lots of people have travelled to lots of interesting places. I've never
> > read any reason to doubt the veracity of Peter's comments. Of course, if
> > Peter was in Delhi before microwave ovens were invented, or at least
> > commonplace that would make his visit to Delhi quite a long time back.
> Fair comment, now perhaps you would like to speculate about what sort of
> mental pathology drives someone to be a "serial"
> name-dropper/bragger/showoff (take your pick)?
This newsgroup is about sharing cultural experiences, especially as we find
them through our daily lives in South Africa. A country's culture includes
the types of food eaten there, the entertainments that people enjoy, the
cultural and sporting activities they pursue, the places the local people
visit, their places of worship etc. Most people don't regard talking about
places visited as "bragging" or "showing off" where they are relevant to the
discussions going on, which Peter's discussion about Delhi was as I
introduced the city by talking about "Delhi's finest" to refer to what I
considered to be water I'd be nervous of drinking, but which probably
wouldn't kill me as I have a cast iron constitution. Peter simply said he
drank unboiled tap water there and lived to tell the tale.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Ferdi Greyling
<first...@wol.co.za> wrote:
<<The only thing that one *has* to do is die.>>
I would say breathe and eat as well.
Peter H.M. Brooks
such a strong reaction to it though - I know the groan that goes up when
anybody offers to show their holiday snaps, but I haven't met such fury at
the idea that somebody else might have travelled to a few places. It seems a
bit odd to me, but, no doubt, in time, Jordan will explain why he is so
hypersensitive to this.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>
>"Jordan" <J...@nadroj.net> wrote in message
>> Fair comment, now perhaps you would like to speculate about what sort of
>> mental pathology drives someone to be a "serial"
>> name-dropper/bragger/showoff (take your pick)?
>
>This newsgroup is about sharing cultural experiences, especially as we find
>them through our daily lives in South Africa. A country's culture includes
>the types of food eaten there, the entertainments that people enjoy, the
>cultural and sporting activities they pursue, the places the local people
>visit, their places of worship etc. Most people don't regard talking about
>places visited as "bragging" or "showing off" where they are relevant to the
>discussions going on, which Peter's discussion about Delhi was as I
>introduced the city by talking about "Delhi's finest" to refer to what I
>considered to be water I'd be nervous of drinking, but which probably
>wouldn't kill me as I have a cast iron constitution. Peter simply said he
>drank unboiled tap water there and lived to tell the tale.
One does sometimes wonder about the culture of people who want to speculate
about other people's supposed mental pathology. A form or projection, perhaps?
But having said that, I think it it would be about as profitable as
speculations on whether Pluto were made of Camembert or Brie.
Jordan
>
>
> This newsgroup is about sharing cultural experiences, especially as we find
> them through our daily lives in South Africa. A country's culture includes
> the types of food eaten there, the entertainments that people enjoy, the
> cultural and sporting activities they pursue, the places the local people
> visit, their places of worship etc. Most people don't regard talking about
> places visited as "bragging" or "showing off" where they are relevant to the
> discussions going on, which Peter's discussion about Delhi was as I
> introduced the city by talking about "Delhi's finest" to refer to what I
> considered to be water I'd be nervous of drinking, but which probably
> wouldn't kill me as I have a cast iron constitution. Peter simply said he
> drank unboiled tap water there and lived to tell the tale.
>
> Moira, the Faerie Godmother
>
Seeing you represent "most people" can I play this game too?
You see when he mentioned Delhi it reminded me of the stink, not as bad
as Taipei you understand but just as chaotic as Bangkok. But a better
way to describe Hang Kong would be "bustling" rather than chaotic, no?
But how would one describe Macao? More "colourful" perhaps but not as
"colourful" as Stone Town in Zanzibar and certainly not as colourful as
the life that one finds on the Manto, Morogo and Borigo reefs not to
mention Turtles Den. But then not quite as good as either the Great
Barrier Reef of the ten places I've dived in the Caribbean. But after
all the sun and sea water nothing quite beats autumn in Aspen does it?
I mean Ottawa and Vancouver are pretty in autumn but does anything
beat little old Pitlochry? But then some prefer views. Anything more
stunning than the Grand Canyon or the New York skyline and our own Blyde
River? But for pure spectacle it must be Serengeti and the Masai Mara
especially during the migration. But my favourite is Londolozi. I mean
Mala Mala, Timbavati, Pondoro are OK and the river rafting at Balule is
great but nothing on balance compared to Londolozi. That doesn't mean
that Ngorongoro Crater is not a must see of course and Phinda must be in
with a shout. ......
How am I doing Moira? Am I getting the gist of it?
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Moira de Swardt wrote:
>
>
> How am I doing Moira? Am I getting the gist of it?
>
was rather hoping you'd explain your extreme sensitivity in this area - some
childhood accident maybe. You still can, you know, I am genuinely
interested.
Jordan
> "Jordan" <J...@nadroj.net> wrote in message
> news:c96f9l$1m$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
>>Moira de Swardt wrote:
>>
>>
>>How am I doing Moira? Am I getting the gist of it?
>>
>
> I can't answer for Moira, but I don't think you've got the point at all. I
> was rather hoping you'd explain your extreme sensitivity in this area - some
> childhood accident maybe. You still can, you know, I am genuinely
> interested.
>
I suggest I got you all wrapped up. Sort of Walter Mitty sort of guy I
see. Sad.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> > "Jordan" <J...@nadroj.net> wrote in message
> > news:c96f9l$1m$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> >
> >>Moira de Swardt wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>How am I doing Moira? Am I getting the gist of it?
> >>
> >
> > I can't answer for Moira, but I don't think you've got the point at all.
I
> > was rather hoping you'd explain your extreme sensitivity in this area -
some
> > childhood accident maybe. You still can, you know, I am genuinely
> > interested.
> >
>
I'm sorry that you're sad. To make you feel a little happier maybe you'd
like to know some of the places I haven't been to. Two whole continents -
I've never been to South America, nor Antarctica. I've also never been to
China, Vietnam, Canada, Poland, Cambodia, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt or
Sudan.
There, now, Jordan, lets hope that makes you feel better.
--
"I can generally manage to attend to more than one thing at a time," said
Serena, rashly; "I think I must have a sort of double brain."
"Much better to economise and have one really good one," observed Lady
Caroline. - Saki The Unbearable Bassington
Jordan
>
> I'm sorry that you're sad. To make you feel a little happier maybe you'd
> like to know some of the places I haven't been to. Two whole continents -
> I've never been to South America, nor Antarctica. I've also never been to
> China, Vietnam, Canada, Poland, Cambodia, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt or
> Sudan.
>
> There, now, Jordan, lets hope that makes you feel better.
>
What dol? You haven't been to South America or on one of those wonderful
cruises to "white South" or done the "in the steps of Scott" thing. I
wouldn't be telling everyone about that if I were you otherwise the
people you so desperately need to impress will cease to oooh and aaah
when you regale them with the wonders of your travels.
Peter H.M. Brooks
I can see that, if you were me, as you say, you would be out to impress
people just because you'd visited places. Fortunately, for me at any rate,
you are not me, so I have no such desire and am prefectly happy to mention
that I haven't been somewhere. If I find somebody who has visited somewhere
that I haven't, not being paranoid, I don't immediately disbelieve them
either, if I'm interested in the place then I might ask them to tell me
something about it, so that I can learn. Maybe you can try it some day and
see if it works for you.
You might also be happier if you didn't accuse people of lying when you have
no evidence to support your accusation - other people just might come to the
conclusion that your accusations suggest more about you and your inclination
to untruth than the person you accuse.
Jordan
> "Jordan" <J...@nadroj.net> wrote in message
> news:c99r19$hbp$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
>>Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'm sorry that you're sad. To make you feel a little happier maybe you'd
>>>like to know some of the places I haven't been to. Two whole
>
> continents -
>
>>>I've never been to South America, nor Antarctica. I've also never been
>
> to
>
>>>China, Vietnam, Canada, Poland, Cambodia, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt or
>>>Sudan.
>>>
>>>There, now, Jordan, lets hope that makes you feel better.
>>>
>>
>>What dol? You haven't been to South America or on one of those wonderful
>>cruises to "white South" or done the "in the steps of Scott" thing. I
>>wouldn't be telling everyone about that if I were you otherwise the
>>people you so desperately need to impress will cease to oooh and aaah
>>when you regale them with the wonders of your travels.
>>
>
> What on earth makes you so envious??
Talking about envy I can just imagine how green you turned when you
heard that old thingy had stayed in a better hotel and eaten at a better
restaurant than you while in Dehli. You are really going to have to read
up on the in-places before you go to all these places and then fail to
impress. You do actually go to these places?
>
> I can see that, if you were me, as you say, you would be out to impress
> people just because you'd visited places. Fortunately, for me at any rate,
> you are not me, so I have no such desire and am prefectly happy to mention
> that I haven't been somewhere. If I find somebody who has visited somewhere
> that I haven't, not being paranoid, I don't immediately disbelieve them
> either, if I'm interested in the place then I might ask them to tell me
> something about it, so that I can learn. Maybe you can try it some day and
> see if it works for you.
What seems to work for you is if someone says they were in "x" then you
just can't help yourself but to say that you have been in "y" which is
better. If someone has eaten at "z" restaurant then you just have to go
one up and "claim" that you have been to "z" on numerous times but also
to the other much better place just around the corner. You are
unfortunately not unique the wife of one of the partners is also just
such an irritating prat.
>
> You might also be happier if you didn't accuse people of lying when you have
> no evidence to support your accusation - other people just might come to the
> conclusion that your accusations suggest more about you and your inclination
> to untruth than the person you accuse.
>
Embellishing a better word then? Pathological liar may be a little to
strong but maybe not altogether inaccurate, yes? Why are you getting so
worried about this? A little too close to the bone?
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>
>> >
> > You might also be happier if you didn't accuse people of lying when you
have
> > no evidence to support your accusation - other people just might come to
the
> > conclusion that your accusations suggest more about you and your
inclination
> > to untruth than the person you accuse.
> >
>
> Embellishing a better word then? Pathological liar may be a little to
> strong but maybe not altogether inaccurate, yes? Why are you getting so
> worried about this? A little too close to the bone?
>
liar because you accuse others of it. Good - you also project well - nice to
hear it worries you.
Yes, I've known irritating people in the past, and embellishers and liars
to. The ones that amused me most were those that, like you, give themselves
away so well. One claimed to have gone to 'Caius' [he pronounced it thus]
college Cambridge. An otherwise faultless friend of mine at school used to
embellish incidents so much that, on occasion, when he described an incident
in which I had been involved I didn't recognize it at all.
Now I have no need to explain myself to somebody as disturbed, sensitive and
confabulatory as your self, however, just for the record. You are, in fact,
completely wrong. I am as truthful on the internet as my, reasonably good,
memory will allow and I have been so since I started posting in the late
'80s. So, if I have mentioned being to a place then I have actually been
there and one of my old passports would, if I ever had to, prove it.
So, bad luck you chose the wrong person to accuse. Somehow I doubt that this
will teach you a proper lesson for the future - but I can live in hope.
Since you clearly don't know, I might as well point out that honest people
are irritated by false accusations, even from utter pillocks, because they
value truth and honesty and their consequent reputation for it. That, as
well as a genuine interest in your pathological envy, is why I have bothered
to answer your pathetic accusations.
--
Innocence shall make False Accusation blush. - A Winter's Tale
JordanK
>
> Ah, at least you understood one point - people are likely to consider you a
> liar because you accuse others of it. Good - you also project well - nice to
> hear it worries you.
Ahh when you say point it reminds me of Cape Point, but then again it
could be Point Sur Lighthouse in the area of Monterey Bay or Fort Point
in San Francisco Bay? But it must be a lighthouse, yes? Could it be
Montauk Point Lighthouse, or Pigeon Point Lighthouse, or Big Bay Point
Lighthouse, or even Marshall Point Lighthouse. My memory worries me. So
many things seen and places visited but alas so little remembered.
>
> Yes, I've known irritating people in the past, and embellishers and liars
> to. The ones that amused me most were those that, like you, give themselves
> away so well. One claimed to have gone to 'Caius' [he pronounced it thus]
> college Cambridge. An otherwise faultless friend of mine at school used to
> embellish incidents so much that, on occasion, when he described an incident
> in which I had been involved I didn't recognize it at all.
Yes like one on our list who forgot he had claimed to be learning the
trumpet and had to apply some fancy footwork to talk himself out of that
lie. And dear boy and that microwave specialist from Dehli. Bit of a
poofter I fear but nevertheless could talk a good fight. Had the habit
of being a real Walter Mitty type. Nothing he hadn't done. No place he
hadn't visited, no restaurant not sampled. A prize prat as you are sure
to realise. Sadly had some groupies hanging one to his every word and
then some.
>
> Now I have no need to explain myself to somebody as disturbed, sensitive and
> confabulatory as your self, however, just for the record. You are, in fact,
> completely wrong. I am as truthful on the internet as my, reasonably good,
> memory will allow and I have been so since I started posting in the late
> '80s. So, if I have mentioned being to a place then I have actually been
> there and one of my old passports would, if I ever had to, prove it.
>
Yes I know the type well. Like alcoholics they are prepared to swear on
a stack of bibles. And they really think people believe them. Great
entertainment, great liars, prats.
> So, bad luck you chose the wrong person to accuse. Somehow I doubt that this
> will teach you a proper lesson for the future - but I can live in hope.
Yes they do try and brazen it out until the bitter end. Too much to lose
you see. No place left to go. Sadly pathetic.
>
> Since you clearly don't know, I might as well point out that honest people
> are irritated by false accusations, even from utter pillocks, because they
> value truth and honesty and their consequent reputation for it. That, as
> well as a genuine interest in your pathological envy, is why I have bothered
> to answer your pathetic accusations.
>
Funny you should say that because pathological liars also defend their
'supposed' honour to the bitter end. Will be prepared to roll out a long
list of references whom would attest to their absolute honesty even
though no one really cares as one lie is sure to follow another.
------------------------------------------------------
"Methinks thou doth protest too much!" apologies to WS
Peter H.M. Brooks
"JordanK" <J...@dippy.net> wrote in message
news:c9da1q$hjv$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> >
>
> Funny you should say that because pathological liars also defend their
> 'supposed' honour to the bitter end.
>
doubt you deserve them.
--
Honi soit qui mal y pense
JordanK
>
> I'll leave you to all your delusions, your jealosy and your bitterness - no
> doubt you deserve them.
>
When Laurence Overmire wrote the following words they were tailor made
for you, no?
If you knew the person
He thinks he is
You’d have to admit
He’s one very special guy.
Dream on Peter ;-)
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Since you clearly don't know, I might as well point out that honest people
>are irritated by false accusations, even from utter pillocks, because they
>value truth and honesty and their consequent reputation for it. That, as
>well as a genuine interest in your pathological envy, is why I have bothered
>to answer your pathetic accusations.
When people habitually post ad hominems, I tend not to download their messages
from the server, since it is a fair assumption that very little of what they
write is worth reading.
I occasionally see bits of what they say quoted by other posters, and it
usually fails to persuade me that it is worth my while to download their
posts.
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40baae2f....@news.saix.net...
> On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:22:10 +0200, "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za>
> wrote:
>
> >Since you clearly don't know, I might as well point out that honest
people
> >are irritated by false accusations, even from utter pillocks, because
they
> >value truth and honesty and their consequent reputation for it. That, as
> >well as a genuine interest in your pathological envy, is why I have
bothered
> >to answer your pathetic accusations.
>
> When people habitually post ad hominems, I tend not to download their
messages
> from the server, since it is a fair assumption that very little of what
they
> write is worth reading.
>
> I occasionally see bits of what they say quoted by other posters, and it
> usually fails to persuade me that it is worth my while to download their
> posts.
>
Richard Bonnage
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
news:c9egis$jc6$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
or discussion, the context of the message is negated.?
Richard.
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Richard Bonnage" <bon...@icon.co.za> wrote in message
news:c9ej4n$org$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> news:c9egis$jc6$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> >
> > "Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:40baae2f....@news.saix.net...
> > > On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:22:10 +0200, "Peter H.M. Brooks"
> <pe...@new.co.za>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I occasionally see bits of what they say quoted by other posters, and
it
> > > usually fails to persuade me that it is worth my while to download
their
> > > posts.
> > >
> > That is a wise approach!
> >
> Why is that wise, because we disagree with other methods of debate
> or discussion, the context of the message is negated.?
>
avoid spam which shows itself in massive cross-posting (cross-posting to
three or four relevant groups is a sound idea). Sometimes reasonable debate
becomes heated (more often if it is a sensitive matter under discussion) and
this heat can induce the odd emotional ad hominem that can be safely ignored
as well.
Steve, quite correctly, makes the point that people who habitually indulge
in ad hominems are a different matter. I agree with him, such people tend
only to wish to have a fight and the exchanges they produce are usually
tedious to anybody not involved - so putting such people in your kill file
is unlikely to lose you anything of interest. I agree with Steve too that
people who are like that tend not to have anything interesting to say
anyway - after all, if they did, then they wouldn't be interested in simply
attacking people, they'd be interested in ideas, information, debate and
different opinions and worth listening to.
If you really enjoy attacks on people, the so-called 'flame-wars', then
there are plenty of places you can go to find them. If that is not your
interest then people who cause such things in interesting groups are simply
a form of troll. Trolls are not interesting.
--
"That," he said, "is a distinguished civilian, John Stuart Mill. He
was an authority on political economy."
"Why?" asked Bertie.
"Well, he wanted to be; he thought it was a useful thing to be."
Bertie gave an expressive grunt, which conveyed his opinion that
there was no accounting for tastes. - Saki, The Toys of Peace
Richard Bonnage
>
> "Richard Bonnage" <bon...@icon.co.za> wrote in message
> news:c9ej4n$org$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> >
> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:c9egis$jc6$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> > >
> > > "Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:40baae2f....@news.saix.net...
> > > > On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:22:10 +0200, "Peter H.M. Brooks"
> > <pe...@new.co.za>
>
> If you really enjoy attacks on people, the so-called 'flame-wars', then
> there are plenty of places you can go to find them. If that is not your
> interest then people who cause such things in interesting groups are
simply
> a form of troll. Trolls are not interesting.
>
>
The foreplay is usually quite good but it is difficult to judge the winner.
I agree trolls of the cyber type, are usually not interesting, but sometimes
I find them amusing. When ever politics or religion are discussed it
is inevitable someone will take offence.
I suppose some people are more sensitive than others and take umbrage
when someone has a dig at them, there's nothing wrong with that. It takes
all sorts.
Richard
Moira de Swardt
> Seeing you represent "most people" can I play this game too?
> You see when he mentioned Delhi it reminded me of the stink, not as bad
> as Taipei you understand but just as chaotic as Bangkok. But a better
> way to describe Hang Kong would be "bustling" rather than chaotic, no?
> But how would one describe Macao? More "colourful" perhaps but not as
> "colourful" as Stone Town in Zanzibar and certainly not as colourful as
> the life that one finds on the Manto, Morogo and Borigo reefs not to
> mention Turtles Den. But then not quite as good as either the Great
> Barrier Reef of the ten places I've dived in the Caribbean. But after
> all the sun and sea water nothing quite beats autumn in Aspen does it?
> I mean Ottawa and Vancouver are pretty in autumn but does anything
> beat little old Pitlochry? But then some prefer views. Anything more
> stunning than the Grand Canyon or the New York skyline and our own Blyde
> River? But for pure spectacle it must be Serengeti and the Masai Mara
> especially during the migration. But my favourite is Londolozi. I mean
> Mala Mala, Timbavati, Pondoro are OK and the river rafting at Balule is
> great but nothing on balance compared to Londolozi. That doesn't mean
> that Ngorongoro Crater is not a must see of course and Phinda must be in
> with a shout. ......
> How am I doing Moira? Am I getting the gist of it?
Would you like me to share my experiences of those places above, some of
which I have visited? The Peter can add his. Etc.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Moira de Swardt
"Jordan" <J...@nadroj.net> wrote in message
> Talking about envy I can just imagine how green you turned when you
> heard that old thingy had stayed in a better hotel and eaten at a better
> restaurant than you while in Dehli. You are really going to have to read
> up on the in-places before you go to all these places and then fail to
> impress. You do actually go to these places?
One goes to places and then shares information with others. Most people who
travel choose their entertainments and hotels and restaurants in manners
which suit their personalities. I do tend to look at internet sites and/or
travel guides before I travel, but I seldom book for anything, tending to
eat when and where it's convenient rather than what is specifically
recommended, unless what is specifically recommended is also conveniently
located.
> What seems to work for you is if someone says they were in "x" then you
> just can't help yourself but to say that you have been in "y" which is
> better. If someone has eaten at "z" restaurant then you just have to go
> one up and "claim" that you have been to "z" on numerous times but also
> to the other much better place just around the corner. You are
> unfortunately not unique the wife of one of the partners is also just
> such an irritating prat.
Places are often different, rather than better. Most people who travel
seldom repeat the experience in one particular location, preferring the
wider exposure to different things and places. "Locals" are usually called
that for a good reason.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Moira de Swardt" <first...@wol.co.za> wrote in message
news:c9htsf$1rg$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
>
> Places are often different, rather than better. Most people who travel
> seldom repeat the experience in one particular location, preferring the
> wider exposure to different things and places. "Locals" are usually
called
> that for a good reason.
>
old favourites. The Parthenon is quite a different place in mid-Winter, for
example, than it is in Summer - you can almost have the whole place to
yourself in winter which is pretty marvelous.
It is also nice to introduce other people to places that you've been to
before - so they can have he excitement of seeing the good bits rather than
have the more foot-sore experience you had. I've been to Venice a number of
times (winter again is the best time) and it has been most exciting when
I've introduced a friend to the place (and gone back to the restaurant that
I remember so well for its pasts with squid's ink sauce).
The other reason is when you have to travel somewhere for work. For years I
went to Grenoble two or three times a year and tried different restaurants -
eventually it wasn't really possible to find new ones so I was pleased when,
the trips changed to being to Lyon opening up a whole new vista of great
places to eat. It was in Lyon that I first encountered the idea of a pint
bottle of wine. I wish they had them here. Half a bottle is too small an
amount if you are eating dinner on your own and a whole bottle two much
while a pint is just perfect. Of course it was a metric 'pint' being 500ml,
but it is close enough for the missing few millilitres not to be missed.
Slow Eddy
Yeah well I sometimes have the crazy idea of going to Florence in midwinter
and hoping for a rainy day with bitter winds driving the stuff against the
doorways. Reason is I'd like to go and see the Ufizzi Gallery, but just
can't find the patience to endure the three-block queue. So the net result
is that all I can really tell you about the culture of Florence is that
people look at you funny if you cook yourself a fine meal of noodles on a
Gaz cooker on the steps of the cathedral, especially if you wash this down
with a box of wine.
But then I think to myself I could just slap together something much better
than that Ufizzi stuff in the shed out of scrap metal and that old tractor
engine we still haven't found a use for. Forty minutes of transforming junk
into priceless art treasures sure is easier than enduring an Italian winter
just for the sake of having an art gallery to yourself. Still, it's a bit
of a toss-up.
Oh, if you get off the train from Fiesole at the wrong station there's a
really cool modern church. You can see the spire from the station platform.
It has an unusually Gothic-looking spire, but there's no roof cladding on
this. It's just a skeleton. And the bells of the campanile are thus
exposed, hanging inside a roof which is only suggested by some structural
steel. Don't miss it.
--
Slow Eddy
Slow Eddy
> It is also nice to introduce other people to places that you've been to
> before - so they can have he excitement of seeing the good bits rather
> than have the more foot-sore experience you had. I've been to Venice a
> number of times (winter again is the best time) and it has been most
> exciting when I've introduced a friend to the place (and gone back to the
> restaurant that I remember so well for its pasts with squid's ink sauce).
>
G'day. I'd like to introduce you to the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre out way
beyond the old black stump back of Bourke. "Welcome to Oodnadatta,
Altitude: 620m, Population: Maybe" says the sign at what must be the edge
of town (though the town's not that easy to detect). Oodnadatta is - or was
- a railway siding along the old Ghan railway up into the Northern
Territory. The line's been scrapped, and I suppose that means that
Oodnadatta has been scrapped, too. (A mate of mine survived by recovering
railway sleepers from the old line for a few months; a mate of his bought a
few thousand kilometers of defunct railway line cheap and was busy ripping
it up when my mate came through with one of the road trains).
The great feature of Oodnadatta before it vanished forever was the
Oodnadatta Picture Theatre. This was a makeshift drive-in screen faced by a
single bench, which looked a bit like a low post rail fence. In the middle
of that thin bench was a stand for the projector.
So we was sittin there arguin as to whether it should be "Taming the Dragon"
or "Fighting Tiger Dawn" again and Norm said all right mate we settle this
with duelling pistols at dawn. So its my turn and someone throws the bloody
bottle all crook so of course I miss the bloody thing. So Norm says ha ha
you couldn't hit a cow in the cunt with a shovel, mate. And I tell him the
boong threw the thing all crook. And he tells me the boong is going to kill
me for calling him a boong. But the boong says Nah mate don't mind him. Hes
South African and they all racist. Then he says that movie line about
keffas and Norm says good one mate. And in the end it don't matter because
I woke up in the dust of the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre in a pile of my own
vomit which still tasted a bit like pie and sauce, strangely. Makes you
wonder what they put in those things. In the end they did a double feature
and decided it would be kinder to just leave me there in the red dust of
the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre to sleep it off.
Actually I didn't, but focusing on that fact would bugger up a very nice
story about the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre, and isn't that what really
counts?
--
Slow Eddy
Peter H.M. Brooks
"Slow Eddy" <notmyrea...@sillyboy.co.ru> wrote in message
news:jjbl9c...@verdun.local...
> >
> Actually I didn't, but focusing on that fact would bugger up a very nice
> story about the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre, and isn't that what really
> counts?
>
encountered first in books by Peter Cary and later in Oz and Nz. If you
think that the story is the thing then write fiction and enjoy it. If you
think that what happened is the thing then join me, and tell the story as it
was. Surely it is a matter for you to decide. Why do you need my help?
Moira de Swardt
"Slow Eddy" <notmyrea...@sillyboy.co.ru> wrote in message
> Yeah well I sometimes have the crazy idea of going to Florence in
midwinter
> and hoping for a rainy day with bitter winds driving the stuff against the
> doorways. Reason is I'd like to go and see the Ufizzi Gallery, but just
> can't find the patience to endure the three-block queue. So the net result
> is that all I can really tell you about the culture of Florence is that
> people look at you funny if you cook yourself a fine meal of noodles on a
> Gaz cooker on the steps of the cathedral, especially if you wash this down
> with a box of wine.
You're cheating. No-one mentioned Florence. :-)
I've never been to Italy, but one of my friends goes every second year. In
alternate years he goes elsewhere. If I win the lottery I'm going to
Bayreuth with him. However, back to art galleries in Italy. Apparently if
you write to the art gallery you can book your place, then you can just
march up to the front door, saving the queues for people who have recently
visited the Tower of London and Madame Waxworks in London.
I managed to get a fabulous guided tour, including free tea and cake, of the
SA National Gallery by the curator, including works in the archives, through
the person who taught him that trick. Art historians don't have to wait in
queues and nor do their friends. :-)
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Slow Eddy
>
> "Slow Eddy" <notmyrea...@sillyboy.co.ru> wrote in message
> news:jjbl9c...@verdun.local...
>> >
>> Actually I didn't, but focusing on that fact would bugger up a very nice
>> story about the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre, and isn't that what really
>> counts?
>>
> I really couldn't tell, Eddy. I have rather enjoyed the word 'crook'
> though, encountered first in books by Peter Cary and later in Oz and Nz.
> If you think that the story is the thing then write fiction and enjoy it.
> If you think that what happened is the thing then join me, and tell the
> story as it was. Surely it is a matter for you to decide. Why do you need
> my help?
>
Would a collage count as the truth? I mean if I had a perfectly boring
sandwich at the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre in broad daylight when all the
local Abos were somewhere in the surrounding spinifex grass sleeping off
their dole cheque day hangovers, that wouldn't make much of a traveller's
tale. So take the genuinely Australian idiomatic reference to cows and
shovels, the genuine drunk Abos from somewhere else, the bloke who shot at
bottles like Annie Oakley to amuse himself, the kind of movie I imagined
would be fought over at the Oodnadatta Picture Theatre, etc. and you have a
good picture of the effect of this place on one traveller's imagination at
the time. While he chewed like a sleepy cow on its cud, on a completely
tasteless sandwich. The sign at the "entrance" to "town" was genuine. I
hope someone kept it for a museum.
Trouble with questions about what really matters - as opposed to what
happened - is that the answers are elusive. You need all the help you can
get with those. It doesn't actually help, of course, but you still need all
the help you can get.
--
Slow Eddy
Slow Eddy
>
> "Slow Eddy" <notmyrea...@sillyboy.co.ru> wrote in message
>
>> Yeah well I sometimes have the crazy idea of going to Florence in
> midwinter
>> and hoping for a rainy day with bitter winds driving the stuff against
>> the doorways. Reason is I'd like to go and see the Ufizzi Gallery, but
>> just can't find the patience to endure the three-block queue. So the net
>> result is that all I can really tell you about the culture of Florence is
>> that people look at you funny if you cook yourself a fine meal of noodles
>> on a Gaz cooker on the steps of the cathedral, especially if you wash
>> this down with a box of wine.
>
> You're cheating. No-one mentioned Florence. :-)
>
I was just in the mood for making Jordan froth at the mouth. And of course I
had to invent an excuse to drop the name of the town I draw my inspiration
from. As all us travelling posers do at every possible opportunity, just to
make other people feel inferior to us.
> I've never been to Italy, but one of my friends goes every second year.
> In
> alternate years he goes elsewhere. If I win the lottery I'm going to
> Bayreuth with him. However, back to art galleries in Italy. Apparently
> if you write to the art gallery you can book your place, then you can just
> march up to the front door, saving the queues for people who have recently
> visited the Tower of London and Madame Waxworks in London.
>
Ah, Bayreuth! Herman Goering's favourite town. Never have been there, but
maybe when I go and visit my cousin his dole cheque will be big enough to
take us there.
You *must* go to Italy. The trains are cheap, the campgrounds aren't too
expensive, and MacDonalds sell their so-called "Big Mac" cheap enough for
you to buy almost enough of them to convince your stomach that it got a
meal off you when you're too lazy to cook or have wearied of the strange
looks people give to those performing the perfectly ordinary act of boiling
up their two minute noodles at lunch time.
Don't bother with the art galleries. Give yourself a few days at Pompeii,
and go and have a look at the Amalfi penninsula. The water is almost as
blue as the water in the Sinoia Caves, and I've discovered that this is
mainly on account of its being completely sterile and devoid of marine
life.
> I managed to get a fabulous guided tour, including free tea and cake, of
> the SA National Gallery by the curator, including works in the archives,
> through
> the person who taught him that trick. Art historians don't have to wait
> in
> queues and nor do their friends. :-)
>
> Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Your tip for the art galleries is one to remember. My idea of a visit to an
art gallery is to go and find the impressionist paintings; go up close and
look at the dots and how random they all look; then step back until a
picture forms; enjoy that gee whizz feeling for a few moments; go back up
close to the painting till it once again disintegrates into a random
assemblage of dots; step back ... It always astonishes me to find how long
it takes for me to get bored with this. Other paintings I just look at in
books (I've inherited my cousin's), but a book picture of an impressionist
painting gives no clue to the fantastic trick the artists use to make
these.
--
Slow Eddy
Peter H.M. Brooks
sort.
My offer is still open.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Moira de Swardt wrote:
>
> Ah, Bayreuth! Herman Goering's favourite town. Never have been there, but
> maybe when I go and visit my cousin his dole cheque will be big enough to
> take us there.
>
Slow Eddy
>
> "Slow Eddy" <notmyrea...@sillyboy.co.ru> wrote in message
> news:sbhq9c....@verdun.local...
>> Moira de Swardt wrote:
>>
>> Ah, Bayreuth! Herman Goering's favourite town. Never have been there, but
>> maybe when I go and visit my cousin his dole cheque will be big enough to
>> take us there.
>>
> Adolf Hitler's favourite drink was water. Should we give it up?
>
I recall reading a quote - by Ambrose Bierce, perhaps - accusing water
drinkers of the worst abominations in history. I suppose it depends on the
sample you select. (Ghengis Khan, for instance, preferred something
potently alcoholic made from mare's milk).
Same with Bayreuth. I think it may have been Goethe's favourite town as
well.
Herman Goering loved Sweden. Just his kind of country. Don't know if he ever
yearned to return to German West though.
--
Slow Eddy
Slow Eddy
Not that I've noticed. One would perhaps have to substitute the word "one"
for "you" (plural and generic) in the sentences. "A person" is not an
acceptable substitute phrase. "People" is several degrees less acceptable.
"We" might do, but that's always struck me as a manipulative and presumtious
word in many contexts.
> My offer is still open.
>
I accept. What's your opinion about the embellishment of an empty picture
theatre in the middle of nowhere with some fictional characters from the
middle of nowhere in the context of telling the world what the Oodnadatta
Picture Theatre is either really like or ought to be like?
--
Slow Eddy
Peter H.M. Brooks
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>
> I accept. What's your opinion about the embellishment of an empty picture
> theatre in the middle of nowhere with some fictional characters from the
> middle of nowhere in the context of telling the world what the Oodnadatta
> Picture Theatre is either really like or ought to be like?
>
to know in order to frame my reply.
--
'Happiness lies in conquering one's enemies, driving them in front of
oneself, in taking their property, in savouring their despair, in outraging
their wives and daughters.' - Genghis Khan
Moira de Swardt
> > Ah, Bayreuth! Herman Goering's favourite town. Never have been there,
but
> > maybe when I go and visit my cousin his dole cheque will be big enough
to
> > take us there.
> Adolf Hitler's favourite drink was water. Should we give it up?
Only if there's enough substitute for drinking *and* bathing.
Moira, the Faerie Godmother
Slow Eddy
>
> "Slow Eddy" <notmyrea...@sillyboy.co.ru> wrote in message
> news:2oat9c....@verdun.local...
>> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>>
>> I accept. What's your opinion about the embellishment of an empty picture
>> theatre in the middle of nowhere with some fictional characters from the
>> middle of nowhere in the context of telling the world what the Oodnadatta
>> Picture Theatre is either really like or ought to be like?
>>
> Are there really empty picture palaces in the middle of nowhere? I do need
> to know in order to frame my reply.
>
>
More like drive-ins with no facilities for cars. One screen, one long wooden
bench of the kind a drunk man would fall off at exactly the point where
he's had too much, and a bit of a raised table for the projector. Plenty of
beer cans, but no people around by day. Yes. At Oodnadatta, and no doubt at
divers other localities.
--
Slow Eddy