Belgian soldiers roast Somali boy
Naeem Mohaiemen
Lat week's issue of VILLAGE VOICE (NYC) carried on it's cover,
full-color photo of the two belgian soldiers roasting the Somali boy
over a fire.
"First time, these pictures are being carried in a US paper"
Zahid Hussain wrote:
This article is taken from The Telegraph without permission,
the original and related links can be found at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000153516021256&rtmo=33af817d&atmo=33af817d&P4_FOLLOW_ON=/97/6/24/wbel24.html&pg=/et/97/6/24/wbel24.html
Belgian UN troops admit to 'roasting' Somali boy
By Robert Fox and AFP
TWO Belgian paratroopers who were photographed "roasting" a Somali
boy over a flaming brazier are expected to be jailed for only a
month and fined £200 after admitting the atrocity in a military
court in Brussels yesterday.
Privates Claude Baert and Kurt Coelus faced a maximum of a year in
jail but the prosecutor demanded only a month. Sentence will be
passed on Monday. The case against a third soldier accused of
atrocities during the United Nations "Restore Hope" mission three
years ago was adjourned until September.
Sgt Dirk Nassel is accused of forcing a young Somali to eat pork,
drink salt water, and then eat his vomit. The three soldiers
were charged with assault and threatening behaviour.
A fourth member of the 3rd battalion of the Parachute Regiment,
based at Tielen in Flanders, is also due to go on trial in
September. Sergeant Major Rudy Derkinderen is suspected of
having murdered a Somali whom he was photographed urinating on.
The circumstances surrounding the death of another child at
the paratroopers' base near Kismayo in southern Somalia are also
under investigation. According to the testimony of two
former paratroopers, the boy, who had been caught trying to
steal food, died after being locked in a container for 48 hours.
The Defence Minister, Jean-Pol Poncelet, has promised that any
of the paratroopers found guilty of criminal acts in Somalia
will be dishonourably discharged. Baert has already left the
army but Coelus is now in the navy and Nassel has remained at Tielen.
Mr Poncelet has also ordered an inquiry to establish whether
the incidents were part of a broader pattern of abuse of the
local population. If it is, he has promised to disband the
3rd battalion.
Fifteen members of the regiment were investigated in 1995 for
"acts of sadism and torture" against Somalian civilians.
One paratrooper has been sentenced to five years, following the
murder of a Somalian youth, who allegedly had uncovered illegal
arms trading by the paratroopers. Belgium is the third country
involved in the "Restore Hope" mission to charge its soldiers
for serious misdemeanours against Somalian civilians, including
rape, torture and murder. In 1995 a group of Canadian paratroopers
were investigated for torturing a Somali to death and killing
three others.
The charges of indiscipline, racism, and the rituals for new members
of the unit led to the Canadian Airborne Regiment being disbanded
last year. Earlier this month gruesome photographs were published
in a Milan magazine of Italian soldiers torturing a young Somali
youth, and abusing and raping a young Somali girl. Two Italian
generals involved in "Restore Hope" have subsequently resigned
to clear the way for a major investigation of the unit involved,
the Folgore (Lightning) Division currently deployed on peacekeeping
duties in Albania.
The Italian parliament has set up a major investigation and boards
of inquiry of the Italian army are at work. Paratroopers of the
Folgore claim that they were specifically trained in methods of
torture to aid interrogation. According to one witness Italian
soldiers tied a young Somali girl to the front of an armoured
carrier and raped her while officers looked on.
The witness told investigators: "When the officers wanted to have
fun, everybody went along with it."
Over the weekend an interpreter with the Italian force in
Somalia accused a Folgore battalion commander of sexually abusing
a 13-year-old Somali youth. The "Restore Hope" mission has become
the most controversial of all recent peacekeeping operations
undertaken under the UN banner. It was mandated in 1992 to
provide medical aid and food after civil order in Somalia
collapsedfollowing the overthrow of the Marxist dictator
Maj Gen Muhammad Siad Barré, after a 17-year civil war.
The operation was directed by an American admiral, and spearheaded
by American Marines. After the murder of 20 Pakistani soldiers in
an ambush and the killing and dragging of two American Marines
through the streets of Mogadishu, the American command moved
from peacekeeping to offensive operations against the warlords
running the main Somali cities, principally Mogadishu and Kismayo.
Though they used helicopter gunships and area bombardment, the
Americans failed to defeat the leading warlord, Gen Muhammad
Farrah Aidid, and eventually the UN forces were ordered to withdraw.
A common thread through the accusations against the Belgian, Italian
and Canadian forces, is the racism ofelite units, particularly
airborne units, and their inability to adapt to low-intensity
peacekeeping operations.
Last week an Italian paratrooper said: "What's the big deal?
They are just niggers anyway."
The head of the UN's peacekeeping department, Under Secretary
General Bernard Miyet, said: "The image of the United Nations
has been tarnished."
Abdinasir Magan
Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
>
> Lat week's issue of VILLAGE VOICE (NYC) carried on it's cover,
> full-color photo of the two belgian soldiers roasting the Somali boy
> over a fire.
>
Those people who have roasted our people under a vague mask of autocratic
sytle of humanism are the same people who have victimised millions of
people through racism and mayhem in the past. These new developments
would only accentuate the fact that the West has unleashed their true
character of racism and sarvitude. And they would like us to buy the
idea that they are the true champions of Humanism and thus liberalsim!
Give us a break.
Regrads
Abdinasir Magan.
'hayan' Mohamed A Omer
First, I condenm all those who came as humanitrian effort and end up
killing innocent Somali victims. It is an outrage and unacceptable.
However, don't you think we are overreacting a bit for few individuals and
the emotional outpour display is bordering hyppcrisy . For starters, they
are digging *mass grave* with hundreds of victims in Hargeisa. And what
about all the killing of innocent Somalis by the hands of other Somalis
that is happening all over the lands of Somalis. Sure, the thought of
foreign perpetrators brings back the nightmare of colonial days and boils
our blood that much more, however the end result for the *victims* is the
same: Death, suffering or both. That is why I am usually moved by the
numbers. And the bottom lines is: a million ( and counting) Somalis lost
their lives by the hands of other Somalis........ Why are we silent about
that.???????
Hayan.
Stephen Liddell
>Lat week's issue of VILLAGE VOICE (NYC) carried on it's cover,
>full-color photo of the two belgian soldiers roasting the Somali boy
>over a fire.
I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
question should be executed.
Stephen Liddell
Abdinasir Magan
Hayan
My heart goes out to the victims of Somalia..to those who have suffered
in the hands of our warlords and those Siad Barre victimised.
From my last post on the subject of the Belgian troops roasting a somali
kid and the subject you are discussing presently are very different. In
the artilce you were referring to, I was raising the point that:
LIBERAL NATIONS WHO CLAIMED TO LIBERATE THE VICTIMS OF THE FAMINE
FROM STARVATION WERE JUST USING FASCIST TACTICS' (i.e.An example is
roasting our kids to death under a superficial banner of Humanism).
Now I recall neither Siad Barre nor anyone of our warlords claiming to be
the champions of Humanism! This is not as same as a situation of civil
war. In Somali’s current status quo, people are victims because people
are being deprived their ability to think positively by their warlords,
also had there not been support given to the ruthless warlords, the scale
of mass murder committed by other Somalis would have been avoided. Now
did the Belgian, Italian and Canadian troops get any support from us to
roast our kids to death in the same way as our warlords even up to the
present day are getting support from their clans and sub-clans to kill
each other??
Salaama
Abdinasir Magan
chatterjee avik prasun
Stephen Liddell (step...@ndirect.co.uk) wrote:
: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 06:56:34 +0000, Naeem Mohaiemen
: <naeem.m...@homebox.com> wrote:
: >Lat week's issue of VILLAGE VOICE (NYC) carried on it's cover,
: >full-color photo of the two belgian soldiers roasting the Somali boy
: >over a fire.
: I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
: question should be executed.
No question. I am surprised and shocked that the media at large seems
to have completely ignored this barbarity; I mean, I haven't read of this
in any other newspaper, or heard of it over the radio. Is indeed
utterly shocking.
-avik.
: Stephen Liddell
Bangla Baboo
hay...@glo.be wrote:
>
> > I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
> > question should be executed.
> >
>
> Is this Somalian Justice ? What about the Somalians
> who killed American peace troopers, and dragged their
> bodies after a car all over town ? I have seen that
> film footage.
Why, you little shit? Does your "gorah poojah" extend to the
fact that innocent Somailis are tortured at will?
>
> Somalia was a mess before 'restore hope' started.
>
> If the world community had done nothing, 100 thousands
> more people would have been killed or died of hunger.
Had the world community done nothing in history, your parents
would probably still be cleaning shithouses in India. Amazing
how your perceptiomns change once you and yours leave the toilets.
> The way you react, makes my idea stronger that Afrika should
> solve its own problems, like they did in rwanda.
>
> The 'roasting' proves nothing. Things like that happen
> in a scout camp as jokes. If you hold somebody that high
> above a fire, he is not even going to feel heat. You are
> scared, that's true. But that is the idea of scout camp, to learn to
> control your fear.
You're actually comparing this to a scout camp??? May I suggest
that you don't post your real name . . . it'll probably embarass
your family.
> My gsm and my friends wallet just got stolen by "an african
> representative" here in Belgium. Because we were not Islamic?
> Am I a victim of racism ?
Actually, your shit probably got stolen 'cos you and your
idiot friend are fools for not having guarded your valuables.
You're not a victim of racism . . . you're a victim of your
own stupidity.
hay...@glo.be
> I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
> question should be executed.
>
> Stephen Liddell
Is this Somalian Justice ? What about the Somalians
who killed American peace troopers, and dragged their
bodies after a car all over town ? I have seen that
film footage.
Somalia was a mess before 'restore hope' started.
If the world community had done nothing, 100 thousands
more people would have been killed or died of hunger.
The way you react, makes my idea stronger that Afrika should
solve its own problems, like they did in rwanda.
The 'roasting' proves nothing. Things like that happen
in a scout camp as jokes. If you hold somebody that high
above a fire, he is not even going to feel heat. You are
scared, that's true. But that is the idea of scout camp, to learn to
control your fear.
Yes, cry outrage ! When you really should be outraged,
you will have no voice left.
chatterjee avik prasun
hay...@glo.be wrote:
: > I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
: > question should be executed.
: >
: > Stephen Liddell
: Is this Somalian Justice ? What about the Somalians
: who killed American peace troopers, and dragged their
: bodies after a car all over town ? I have seen that
: film footage.
Are you seriously urging this as justification for the act of these
soldiers (assuming their act of roasting the boy was indeed true, i.e.,
that it did indeed happen ???) ????
: Somalia was a mess before 'restore hope' started.
: If the world community had done nothing, 100 thousands
: more people would have been killed or died of hunger.
I still do not see how this is a justification......
: The way you react, makes my idea stronger that Afrika should
: solve its own problems, like they did in rwanda.
I agree with you there; EXCEPT that many, not by any means
ALL, of the problems in Africa today ARE vestiges of the colonial
legacy. NOTE : I AM NOT saying "blame the white man for everything";
not at all. Also, no group has a monopoly on racism either. But,
several problems there were left behind by the colonial powers
due to the way they divided up the continent. But, by and large,
I accept this point of yours.
: The 'roasting' proves nothing. Things like that happen
: in a scout camp as jokes. If you hold somebody that high
: above a fire, he is not even going to feel heat. You are
: scared, that's true. But that is the idea of scout camp, to learn to
: control your fear.
I had assumed that the kid *HAD* been roasted, i.e.,
killed, and that it wasnt a joke.....
: Yes, cry outrage ! When you really should be outraged,
: you will have no voice left.
: My gsm and my friends wallet just got stolen by "an african
: representative" here in Belgium. Because we were not Islamic?
: Am I a victim of racism ?
I have found landlords refusing to rent to me on the grounds
that I am coloured; and have found storeowners reluctant to serve
me, saying openly they don't feel like serving foreigners.
So, am I, too, a victim of racism ????
As I said : No ethnic group has a monopoly on racists and bigots.
-avik.
Amina Mire
chatterjee avik prasun (apch...@staff.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: hay...@glo.be wrote:
: : > "I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
: : > question should be executed".
: : >
Dear Stephen Liddell:
I agree with you that this is an act of utter gruelty.
However, will executing these two soldiers solve the root cause of
the politics of cruelty?
These two soldiers are a part of enterprise of militarism, fascism,
imperialism, and patriarchy.
They were trained to see the world along the line of "freind-enemy,"
where the enemy, include, all those "dark races, muslims...ect".
You see this from the Western media's relentless campaign against the
Muslim people. In most of the western media, muslim people have been
subjected to virulent campaign where muslim people are often depicted as
dangerous, blood suckers who think "they will meet Allah if the kill
Jews and Christains". This is a direct quote from Roland Reagan.
Now, why must we be suprised when these young soldiers treat a Somali who is
both a Muslim and a black with this type of cruelity?
We must fight against racism at the level of popular media rather than
seeking to persecute specific cases. Executing these two soldiers will not
change the racist military enterprise which produced them in the first place.
Finally, I agree with the assertion that displaying of dead American soldiers
after they were killed was one of the ugliest scenes I have ever
seen and a dark spot in our consciouness as Somali people. It is against
code of Islamic conduct to harm prisoners and to mistreast your enemy
once they become prisoners of war.
Sincerely,
Amina Mire
: : Is this Somalian Justice ? What about the Somalians
: -avik.
:
TZ
Mr Belgian,
Your response was similar to the reply of a trapped wilderbeast.
For some strange reason, white people feel that they have the
universal solutions to mankinds problems, yet they are the ones
initiating these problems. Attempts to civilize the 'uncivilized'
niggers/negres/negros or what have you, in Somalia, by the Europeans
have been an utter failure - now they are bickering about the lack of
Somali support for their 'humanitarian' mission.
The Somalis who killed American troops came nowhere close to matching
the number of slain Somalis. You asked: "What about the Somalians
who killed American peace troopers, and dragged their bodies after a
car all over town ? " May I ask you if you also watched the footage
of American soldiers randomly shooting into crowds, killing pregnant
women and children, beating and harassing Somali men? Is that okay
because they are darkies?
Somalia was a mess before Restore Hope started, true, but it remains a
mess long after they [Restore Hope Cronies] left. You are
misinformed: your white brethen did nothing for Somalia; true, they
passed out some food here and there, and even managed to send some
Somali families to western countries (as a result many of them will be
'westernized'), but food would still grow in Somalia without their
help.
Africa does not need Europe, it never did!
If roasting a boy is nothing special to you (since you are in Belgium,
a country where homosexual child molesters run rampant), then I can
understand, yet I would be inclined to label you as being sadistic.
No, you are not a victim of racism; you are a proponent of it!
___________________________
Taddese Zicke
tz...@lennon.csufresno.edu
http://lennon.csufresno.edu/~tz011
..
hay...@glo.be wrote:
: > I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
: > question should be executed.
: >
: Is this Somalian Justice ? What about the Somalians
: who killed American peace troopers, and dragged their
: bodies after a car all over town ? I have seen that
: film footage.
: The way you react, makes my idea stronger that Afrika should
: solve its own problems, like they did in rwanda.
Very true indeed. This roasting thing will never have happened if Be
never bothered to go there in the first place. I think you are right.
This does not, of course, justify roasting people. Leave it to the
Africans to solve their own problems.
Walter Muls
on...@merlion.singnet.com.sg (..) wrote:
Just heard on the radio : the court martial in Brussels found them not
guilty.
muls@globe
Anthony Hulsman
mu...@glo.be (Walter Muls) wrote:
>Just heard on the radio : the court martial in Brussels found them not
>guilty.
yup, insufficient evidence.
Anthony.
Your Friendly Neighbor
am...@chass.utoronto.ca (Amina Mire) writes:
>
> chatterjee avik prasun (apch...@staff.uiuc.edu) wrote:
> : hay...@glo.be wrote:
> : : > "I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
> : : > question should be executed".
> : : >
> : : > Stephen Liddell
>
>
> Dear Stephen Liddell:
.......[stuff neatly deleted]..............
> Now, why must we be suprised when these young soldiers treat a Somali who is
> both a Muslim and a black with this type of cruelity?
> We must fight against racism at the level of popular media rather than
> seeking to persecute specific cases. Executing these two soldiers will not
> change the racist military enterprise which produced them in the first place.
Specific cases should be set as examples. And at the same time, fight
against racism should continue.
-Anwarul Azim-
Anthony Hulsman
y...@allwise.mh.att.com (Yussuf S. Ali) wrote:
>>>Just heard on the radio : the court martial in Brussels found them not
>>>guilty.
>
>I am not all surprised.
>
>Yussuf
So when will the Somalis who murdered the US soldiers stand trial????
Anthony.
layman
am...@chass.utoronto.ca (Amina Mire) wrote:
>chatterjee avik prasun (apch...@staff.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: hay...@glo.be wrote:
>: : > "I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
>: : > question should be executed".
>: : >
>: : > Stephen Liddell
>
>
>Dear Stephen Liddell:
>
>However, will executing these two soldiers solve the root cause of
>the politics of cruelty?
>These two soldiers are a part of enterprise of militarism, fascism,
>imperialism, and patriarchy.
You are not off the mark: I just read on (Http://www.telegraph.co.uk)
that the two paratroopers were set free with reprimand. The judge
understood their claim that they were "playing games". Now, this is some
judge.
smk.
Yussuf S. Ali
J.J.Jama
Anthony Hulsman wrote:
>
> y...@allwise.mh.att.com (Yussuf S. Ali) wrote:
>
> >>>Just heard on the radio : the court martial in Brussels found them not
> >>>guilty.
> >
> >I am not all surprised.
> >
> >Yussuf
>
>
> Anthony.
Mr Anthony :
How dare you compare killing and torturing; unarmed defenceless small
kids of that of killing and dragging Us soldiers well traind well
equiped in a war zone , in an area they should not have been there in
the first place .
Anthony when the American soldiers will stand trial for their target
practice in Mogadishu????.
J.J.Jama
Ruben Van Parys
Steph Feremans <st...@vub.ac.be> schreef in artikel
<5pdfrq$f...@imol2.vub.ac.be>...
> >> So when will the Somalis who murdered the US soldiers stand trial????
> >>
> >> Anthony.
> It is a shame they were not found guilty. Happily our minister of
defence
> does not agree and is looking for some other possibilities to punish one
of them
> (the other left the army already) and will try to sweep out racism in the
army.
>
> Let's hope he succeeds, and please, be aware that most Belgians do not
agree
> with fascist pigs as antony.
Fascist pig? Because he thinks that justice has to come from both sides?
Is that the way you like to 'discuss' ?
Ruben Van Parys.
--
* thuispagina : "Volksnationalisme op het Web"
* adres : http://titan.glo.be/~gd32200
*
* welkom !
J.J.Jama
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Walter Muls wrote:
>
> on...@merlion.singnet.com.sg (..) wrote:
>
> >hay...@glo.be wrote:
> >: > I think this is outrageous and if it is true the two soldiers in
> >: > question should be executed.
> >: >
> >: > Stephen Liddell
> >
> >: Is this Somalian Justice ? What about the Somalians
> >: who killed American peace troopers, and dragged their
> >: bodies after a car all over town ? I have seen that
> >: film footage.
> >
> >: The way you react, makes my idea stronger that Afrika should
> >: solve its own problems, like they did in rwanda.
> >
> >Very true indeed. This roasting thing will never have happened if Be
> >never bothered to go there in the first place. I think you are right.
> >This does not, of course, justify roasting people. Leave it to the
> >Africans to solve their own problems.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Just heard on the radio : the court martial in Brussels found them not
> guilty.
>
> muls@globe
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Belgian Soldiers Acquitted of Torture
By Stephanie Griffith
Associated Press Writer
Monday, June 30, 1997; 6:38 p.m. EDT
BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) -- Two Belgian
peacekeepers accused of torturing a Somali boy
by stretching him over an open fire were
acquitted Monday by a military court.
The court found that privates Claude Baert and
Kurt Coelus did not engage in torture in 1993
but in a playful game meant to discourage the
child from stealing.
The two were also cleared of charges of assault
and battery and threatening behavior.
``The court considered there was no evidence
that the attack was meant to hurt the child
(but that) it was a form of playing without
violence,'' Prosecutor Luc Walleyn told
reporters.
The prosecution had sought a monthlong jail
term for both soldiers, who were among the U.N.
peacekeepers from 21 countries sent to Somalia
in ``Operation Restore Hope.''
The 1993-1995 mission was to protect and feed a
population suffering in the anarchy of civil
war. However, there have been numerous reports
that some peacekeepers -- including Belgians,
Italians and Canadians -- brutalized the
civilians they were sent to help.
Monday's verdict raised questions about how
successful prosecutors will be in obtaining
guilty verdicts in similar cases of misconducts
involving other Belgian peacekeepers.
The cases of Baert and Coelus came to light
after a Belgian newspaper published pictures of
the two holding a young Somali boy over an open
fire. Baert has since left the armed forces,
Coelus has transferred to the Belgian navy.
Last week, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan
expressed shock and anger at reports of
violence and torture ``which are unacceptable
and counter to everything peacekeeping stands
for.''
A Canadian government investigation on the
Canadian experience in Somalia is due to be
made public Wednesday.
--------------780D6B8E3003--
Anthony Hulsman
st...@vub.ac.be (Steph Feremans) wrote:
>It is a shame they were not found guilty. Happily our minister of defence
>does not agree and is looking for some other possibilities to punish one of them
>(the other left the army already) and will try to sweep out racism in the army.
>
>Let's hope he succeeds, and please, be aware that most Belgians do not agree
>with fascist pigs as antony.
Why dont you just move over there and kneel before him. Ask him to forgive the
retarded Belgians who dont immediately agree with his (and your) point of view
and then just drop dead.
Anthony.
'hayan' Mohamed A Omer
On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Abdinasir Magan wrote:
> Hayan
>=20
> Now I recall neither Siad Barre nor anyone of our warlords claiming to be=
=20
> the champions of Humanism! This is not as same as a situation of civil=20
> war. In Somali=92s current status quo, people are victims because people=
=20
=09Dear Abdinasir,
I couldn't agree you more. The whole thing " Restore Hope" was face saving
public relations scam for a sitting duck president, George Bush who was
about to relinquish power to the president elect Bill Clinton at the time.
There was nothing Humanitarian about it. Of the 2 billion dollars touted
in their media, Only about 50 million dollars has reached to the somali
people. What is more, this turned out to be deadly for the innocent
Somalis who became open season for the racist *elements* in Western
armies. We should never be silent about the horrific actions of these
white dogs. Otherwise, they will do it again to other innocent victims
somewhere in Africa.=20
Be that as it may, in the earlier article, my intention was merely to
remind us that there are also other *Somali victims*. However, that
doesn't mean that the two issue can be addressed separately.
Thanks for the clarification. I really appreciated.
Nabadgelyo.
hayan.
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hayan' Mohamed A Omer wrote:
> >=20
> > First, I condenm all those who came as humanitrian effort and end up
> > killing innocent Somali victims. It is an outrage and unacceptable.
> >=20
> > However, don't you think we are overreacting a bit for few individuals =
and
> > the emotional outpour display is bordering hyppcrisy . For starters, t=
hey
> > are digging *mass grave* with hundreds of victims in Hargeisa. And what
> > about all the killing of innocent Somalis by the hands of other Somalis
> > that is happening all over the lands of Somalis. Sure, the thought of
> > foreign perpetrators brings back the nightmare of colonial days and boi=
ls
> > our blood that much more, however the end result for the *victims* is t=
he
> > same: Death, suffering or both. That is why I am usually moved by the
> > numbers. And the bottom lines is: a million ( and counting) Somalis l=
ost
> > their lives by the hands of other Somalis........ Why are we silent ab=
out
> > that.???????
> >=20
> > Hayan.
> >
>=20
>=20
Gerrit Potoms
tz...@lennon.csufresno.edu (TZ) writes:
% Mr Belgian,
Nice to meet you too, Mr. Somali.
% The Somalis who killed American troops came nowhere close to matching
% the number of slain Somalis.
So what? That can in no way be an excuse for the killing
of American peace troopers. Unlike some other people in
the world, we kind of value *every* human life, and don't
think that a murder can be justified just because 'the
other guys are bad, too'.
% You asked: "What about the Somalians
% who killed American peace troopers, and dragged their bodies after a
% car all over town ? " May I ask you if you also watched the footage
% of American soldiers randomly shooting into crowds, killing pregnant
% women and children, beating and harassing Somali men? Is that okay
% because they are darkies?
Did my dear fellow countryman say anything that could be considered
as remotely suggesting what you describe above? Or are your nice
conjectures just the result of a twisted fantasy? Are you one
of those guys who think there is a fascist/nazi/racist/whatever
hiding behind every tree?
% Somalia was a mess before Restore Hope started, true, but it remains a
% mess long after they [Restore Hope Cronies] left. You are
% misinformed: your white brethen did nothing for Somalia;
??? White brethen ???
It seems to be a hobby of yours to distinguish people just based
on the colour of their skin. If you happen to have an English
dictionnary, you could check that there exists an English word
describing this kind of attitude. It's called: 'racism'.
% true, they
% passed out some food here and there, and even managed to send some
% Somali families to western countries (as a result many of them will be
% 'westernized'), but food would still grow in Somalia without their
% help.
That might be true, but it seems to be a little bit difficult to
bring it to its consumers, considering the mess you guys made.
% Africa does not need Europe, it never did!
Oh come on!! Africa needs Europe, just as Europe can't do without
Africa! Let's make an attempt to live together, instead of
spending our time posting racialistic crap on Usenet, shall we?
% If roasting a boy is nothing special to you (since you are in Belgium,
% a country where homosexual child molesters run rampant)
Yeah, right!
If you are really serious about this, there is a worrying error
in your perception of the world. There is a slim possibility
that a new pair of glasses can do the trick, but I'm
afraid that, considering the severity of your case, only long
and persistent psychiatric treatment will provide a solution.
On the other hand... if it was meant as a joke, you just have
a poor taste of humour.
[CUT]
Gerrit
Anthony Hulsman
"J.J.Jama" <ja...@inforamp.net> wrote:
>Mr Anthony :
>How dare you compare killing and torturing; unarmed defenceless small
>kids of that of killing and dragging Us soldiers well traind well
>equiped in a war zone , in an area they should not have been there in
>the first place .
>
>Anthony when the American soldiers will stand trial for their target
>practice in Mogadishu????.
I have not yet heard of any misconduct by US troops. But if any proof of that
should be found I am sure the soldiers involved will be courtmartialed. I am
not so sure of a similar treatment of Somali misconduct.
This just proves once again we should mind our own business and stay out of
foreign conflicts where all parties involved hate us. Whoever got us into that
mess anyways?
Anthony.
Steph Feremans
"J.J.Jama" <ja...@inforamp.net> wrote:
>> >>>Just heard on the radio : the court martial in Brussels found them not
>> >>>guilty.
>>
>> Anthony.
>
>How dare you compare killing and torturing; unarmed defenceless small
>kids of that of killing and dragging Us soldiers well traind well
>equiped in a war zone , in an area they should not have been there in
>the first place .
>
>Anthony when the American soldiers will stand trial for their target
>practice in Mogadishu????.
>
It is a shame they were not found guilty. Happily our minister of defence
does not agree and is looking for some other possibilities to punish one of them
(the other left the army already) and will try to sweep out racism in the army.
Let's hope he succeeds, and please, be aware that most Belgians do not agree
with fascist pigs as antony.
--
Steph Feremans
Vrije Universiteit Brussel
smk
'hayan' Mohamed A Omer <om...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
>First, I condenm all those who came as humanitrian effort and end up
>killing innocent Somali victims. It is an outrage and unacceptable.
>
>the emotional outpour display is bordering hyppcrisy . For starters, they
>are digging *mass grave* with hundreds of victims in Hargeisa. And what
>about all the killing of innocent Somalis by the hands of other Somalis
========================================================================
Good question? But you are missing the point. Those Smalis didn't have
a fancy title like "Operation Restore Hope". Can't you see the glaring
hypocrisy or more to the point self-contradiction between mission and
action? What really go to me is the further facade put on in Belgium to
portray a picture of accountability in the form of 'prosecuting' the
paratroopers. Not even a slap on the wrist! Imagine the reverse: if
journalists had caught a European being roasted in some dark corner of
Africa, the news, the cry and the name calling will spread like forest
fire in the middle of summer. Some how barbarism when performed by
Europeans tends to become easy to swallow for the public. That is the
sad thing about this world.
smk.
Cliff Morrison
In article <33bce97...@news.innet.be>, ant...@club.innet.be (Anthony
Hulsman) wrote:
> "J.J.Jama" <ja...@inforamp.net> wrote:
>
> >Mr Anthony :
> >How dare you compare killing and torturing; unarmed defenceless small
> >kids of that of killing and dragging Us soldiers well traind well
> >equiped in a war zone , in an area they should not have been there in
> >the first place .
> >
Are you suggesting US soldiers are not people too?
Come off it, its pretty obvious from your attitude and expression that if
circumstances were reversed and the soldiers happened to be on the same
side as you supported, anything they did would be ok by you, or if it was
wrong you wouldn't take notice of it. (And nowadays in case you hadn't
noticed soldiers come in all ages and not necessarily in uniform, but just
as potentially lethal.) I don't happen to think outside forces should have
been sent into Somalia either.
If the boy had been something unfashionable like Iraqui or Serbian you
probably wouldn't give a damn if the soldiers ate him with chips. That
said, he obviously should not have been toasted whoever he was.
But as things are, he just being used as a handy pawn in an argument over
other politics.
Geert Van de Wiele
> So when will the Somalis who murdered the US soldiers stand trial????
>
> Anthony.
wrong place for them :-)
Amina Mire
Dear Steph Feremans:
Things always happen in a particular historical context.
I am sure most of the belgian people thought that their soldiers went
to Somalia to help and not the harm the people of Somalia. But at a closer
level, I want you think and take a moment to reflect on the history of
Belgium with respect to Africa. Just go back to the 19 century and read
the pages of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. See the role the
Belgium governement played in the destruction of Zaire, Rwanda and other
countries in Africa. The Belgium governement has, for example, in 19
century creatured a pseudo-anthroplogy field of "research" designed to
shaw the African people in those nations under the Belgium occupation as
intellectually inferior! This is a well documented historical fact. Also
Conrad alludes to this supposed research in the Heart of Darkness in
the dialogue between Marlow and the doctor just before Marlow was up
to venture to the "Heart of darkness"
While I have no doubt that many of the ordinary Belgian people do not hold
racist or fascist views, however, a closer look into how refugees, who come
to Belgium, seeking protection from prescution as well as hope for
better lives, are treated as outseiders, "other" who are not allowed
to enjoy the privilege to go school or
obtain decent jobs reveals that Belgium had and still has a
history of both racism and imperialism.
The Belgium government as well as private Belgium companies draw great
wealth and material resources from Africa at expense of the African people . It
is rather contradictory for the Belgium people to claim that it upholds
a moral position which respects the rights of all human beings
regardless of culture, religion and race.
This is a problem not just for the Belgium but for all those who
masquerade under the bannar of "liberal democracies"
Sincerely,
Amin amire
(st...@vub.ac.be) wrote:
: "J.J.Jama" <ja...@inforamp.net> wrote:
: >> >>>Just heard on the radio : the court martial in Brussels found them not
: >> >>>guilty.
: >> So when will the Somalis who murdered the US soldiers stand trial????
: >>
: >> Anthony.
: >
: >Mr Anthony :
: >How dare you compare killing and torturing; unarmed defenceless small
: >kids of that of killing and dragging Us soldiers well traind well
: >equiped in a war zone , in an area they should not have been there in
: >the first place .
: >
: >Anthony when the American soldiers will stand trial for their target
Abdinasit Magan
'hayan' Mohamed A Omer wrote:
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I really appreciated.
>
> Nabadgelyo.
>
> hayan
My pleasure.
Nabaa'diino
Abdinasir Magan
Amina Mire
The torture and the killing of unarmed Somali youth, men and women by
Candian, Belgian and other foreign nations during so-called 'Operation
Restore Hope' clearly highlights the increasing reality of
a world divided, irreconcilably, into center with its excess of capital,
and periphery with its excess of inactive of
labour. To keep this precarious relationship from unbecoming,
developed nations of the center have increased their reliance on
military force. For exmple, one needs to question what is the function
of NATO ofter the fall of the "communist" nations?
It is not through democratic negociations, which, in many cases, mean
redistribution of wealth as well as sharing of advanced technology and
science that capitalist nations prepared deal with global conflicts. It
seems capitalist powers of the developed military/industrial complex
prefer brute force over justice and
universal peace. As we head to the 21 century, roughly 15% of the
global population living in the G7 nations comand more then 80% of
the total avialable global natural resources. The people of the Third
World will come by
any means necessary to the center, in search of better lives, whether
the those living in the afluent nations of the west like it or not.
The Belgium solderies were sent to Somalia not out of love for the the Somali
people but to prevent mass
immigration of "starving, dark looking people" coming into the
metropolitans of Europe!
the renewed populartiy of Jean Raspeal's chilling racist futuristic
novel, Camp of The Saints, among Right-Wing Intellectuals and
immirgantion officers in Europe and North American is a case in point.
But the people of the The Third World will not accept their current
state of misery quitely. For one simple reason, CNN shows to even the
remotest corner of the earth, the excess of "western living standards".
If such living standard is to be maintained with all mean necessary, then
stay tone, because things are going to get even more unglier than just
"roasting" of few Somali boys by Belgium soldiers!
Sincerely,
Amina mire
Amina Mire (am...@chass.utoronto.ca) wrote:
: Dear Steph Feremans:
Gerrit Potoms
am...@chass.utoronto.ca (Amina Mire) writes:
% Things always happen in a particular historical context.
Damn right, they do!
% I am sure most of the belgian people thought that their soldiers went
% to Somalia to help and not the harm the people of Somalia.
Damn right, again.
% But at a closer
% level, I want you think and take a moment to reflect on the history of
% Belgium with respect to Africa. Just go back to the 19 century and read
% the pages of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. See the role the
% Belgium governement played in the destruction of Zaire, Rwanda and other
% countries in Africa. The Belgium governement has,
Sigh... another whizkid that has just discovered the Net.
The Belgium government, right! Not to mention, of course, the
America government, the Canada government and the China government.
% for example, in 19
% century creatured
Creatured??
% pseudo-anthroplogy field of "research" designed to
% shaw the African people in those nations under the Belgium occupation as
% intellectually inferior! This is a well documented historical fact. Also
% Conrad alludes to this supposed research in the Heart of Darkness in
% the dialogue between Marlow and the doctor just before Marlow was up
% to venture to the "Heart of darkness"
This might all be very true, but which conclusions are you going to
draw from these facts? That the Belgian colonists were all very
wicked people? As someone once said, and I quote: 'Things always happen
in a particular historical context'. I wonder whether the person
who has written this sentence understands its true meaning, or
has just copied it from some text book in order to try and look like
a smart guy. Wouldn't it be possible that this sentence implies
that, since people always operate in a certain historical context,
they can only be judged by the moral standards valid in that
particular context? Judging people by some moral system that
has come to existance long after they left this valley of tears,
isn't just unfair, it's ridiculous.
I even have the slight impression that there is something else
seriously wrong with your way of thinking. Are you, by any chance,
trying to suggest that, for the Belgians behaved badly in 19th
century Africa (again,
NOT according to 19th century standards, but according to
our late 20th century post-modern/new-age/pre-sexual/whatever
values system), they haven't changed a bit ever since?
That is as preposterous as saying that most people still believe
the earth is as flat as a pancake, just because our ancestors
believed this!
% While I have no doubt that many of the ordinary Belgian people do not hold
% racist or fascist views, however, a closer look into how refugees, who come
% to Belgium, seeking protection from prescution as well as hope for
% better lives, are treated as outseiders, "other" who are not allowed
% to enjoy the privilege to go school or
% obtain decent jobs reveals that Belgium had and still has a
% history of both racism and imperialism.
Blahblahblah... Who has told you that? Have you come to Belgium
to investigate these matters? Have you actually ***ever*** been
to Belgium? Or are you just making this up?
% The Belgium government as well as private Belgium companies draw great
% wealth and material resources from Africa at expense of the African people . % It
% is rather contradictory for the Belgium people
The 'Belgium' people? ***Which*** Belgium people? Define 'people'.
Define 'Belgian people'. Wake up, lad, there is no such thing as
the 'Belgium' people. Have you ever heard of Flanders and Wallonia?
What do you think they are? Brands of ice cream? TV shows?
The new type of diapers your mother has just kindly provided
you with? Actually, do you happen to possess a primary school
degree?
% to claim that it upholds
% a moral position which respects the rights of all human beings
% regardless of culture, religion and race.
% This is a problem not just for the Belgium but for all those who
% masquerade under the bannar of "liberal democracies"
So, which alternative to 'liberal democracy' do you suggest?
Which 'bannar' (sic) are we supposed to follow now?
Gerrit
Amina Mire
Dear Gerrit Potoms:
I am glad that you have decided to air your views here in the public
forum rather sending private nasty emails.
Now, I have the following to say to you in response to some of the
objections you raised in response to the piece reproduced below:
First, the context I am talking about here is the historical context
through which Belgium as a nation consciously created and actively
supported a culture of imperialism and racism for the sole reason of
material gain for itself which often meant harm to others.
Second, the Belgian young sodiers whose utter cruety of roasting
helpless young Somali boys, raping Somali women have shocked the world,
including many citezens of Belgium, have been trained as young men
under the guidance of racist/fascist military officers who see the world
along narrow line of "friend and enemey".
These young men were thought, to hate and to kill the enemy. The enemy
often includes all those "dark races"
These soldiers are therefore a part of cultural milieu of violence
hate, militarism, imperialism, racism and fascism.
Third, I realize that the government of Belguim does always represent
the wishes of every Belgium citizen nor do I believe that the Belgian
people are undiferenciated homogeneous group of people, neverthess,
the government of Belgium as well private companies have been engaged
and are still engaged in enterprise of imperialism and are still
involved some of the darkest and sadest human tragedies in central
Africa such as Rwanda, and Zaire.
If you do not know this, I ugre you to read relationship between
successive regimes in Belgium and the one of the most ruthless
dictators in the African continent-- Mbuto of Zaire.
After decades of Mbabuto's rule, today one of the richest in terms of
natural resource in the Continenet of Africa is in total ruins.
Finally, you do not know whether I am a woman or a man but yet you made
up your mind a priori and decided to call me "a Lad"
This is intersting for the following reasons:
First, my name is posted in the piece which clearly indicates my
gender. After all the name Amina is one of most common name in many parts of
the world. This shows how little you know about the world outside of your
little village; second, in the American south, during slavery period,
the white men used say when addressing black man "boy or lad".
This of course, is designed to deny the black man's humanity.
Now Potoms what makes you call me a Lad?
Sincerely,
Amina Mire
(pot...@esat.kuleuven.ac.be) wrote:
Gerrit Potoms
am...@chass.utoronto.ca (Amina Mire) writes:
% Dear Gerrit Potoms:
%
% I am glad that you have decided to air your views here in the public
% forum rather sending private nasty emails.
My beloved Amina Mire,
I can hardly find the propper words to express my delight about the fact
that you seem to choose your words with greater care in the 'public forum'
version of your message, than in the version you send to my E-mail
address, in a response to the copy of my posting I was so corteous to
provide you with.
% Now, I have the following to say to you in response to some of the
% objections you raised in response to the piece reproduced below:
% First, the context I am talking about here is the historical context
% through which Belgium as a nation consciously created and actively
% supported a culture of imperialism and racism for the sole reason of
% material gain for itself which often meant harm to others.
... to which I'd like to retort that 'historical contexts' have the
strong inclination to change over time. The present attitude of Belgian
government is as different from that of the one described in Conrad's
1902 novel than the latter was from the attitude of the 17th century's
Spanish rulers of these regions or from that of the Roman occupation.
You don't think we all still believe earth to be as flat as a pancake,
just because our ancestors adhered to this belief, do you?
% Second, the Belgian young sodiers whose utter cruety of roasting
% helpless young Somali boys, raping Somali women have shocked the world,
Raping Somali women? Now, *that* is what I call a serious accusation!
Do you happen to have a list of the Belgian para troopers who are guilty
of rape? A list of the victims? Are there any witnesses? When did all
this happen? If you are not able to back up thia claims with some serious
evidence, you just *might* have made yourself guilty of libel, which,
as far as I know, is considered to be a misdemeanor in Canada ...
% including many citezens of Belgium, have been trained as young men
% under the guidance of racist/fascist military officers who see the world
% along narrow line of "friend and enemey".
% These young men were thought, to hate and to kill the enemy. The enemy
% often includes all those "dark races"
% These soldiers are therefore a part of cultural milieu of violence
% hate, militarism, imperialism, racism and fascism.
Imperialism, racism, fascism ... That is all very easy to write and
post on Usenet, of course. I could just as well write a posting in
which I claim that Canada is a crappy state, where the police has
the naughty habit of having little boys for breakfast.
It might be sligtly harder to elaborate a bit on this. I.e.: what
makes you think this? How do you know that Belgian military officers
are racist/fascist? Have you met enough Belgian officers to draw
general conclusions? Have you ever met a Belgian officer? Have you
ever read an independent and believable report or that stated that
Belgian officers, in general, are racist or fascist? Have you double-checked
these sources? You see, I've lived in Belgium for almost my entire
life, I know one or two fellows in the army, and, although they might
have the inclination to divide the world in 'friends' and 'ennemies'
(for, hey, they're the *army*, they're supposed to protect us against
possible ennemies. Or are you claiming that Europe has no ennemies what-
soever?) , they're anything *but* the gang of ferocious, women-raping,
little-boy-roasting animals you described. Therefore, I have the
strong impression that you have no real knowledge about Belgium,
its inhabitants, its politics, its habits and culture, and are just
making up whatever you are saying based on I don't know what
biased articles or superficial TV programs you might have read or watched.
Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong, and see that you actually *do*
possess some knowledge about Belgium, other than that it's a small
Western European country, that it used to have a large colony in Central
Africa, nowadays known as 'Congo', and that some of its soldiers have been accused
of crimes committed during the peace-keeping operations in Somalia.
So, come on, try to surprise me ;-)
% Third, I realize that the government of Belguim does always represent
% the wishes of every Belgium citizen nor do I believe that the Belgian
% people are undiferenciated homogeneous group of people,
That should be a BelgiAN citizen. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BELGIAN
PEOPLE, for crying out loud!! Are you blind, or what? There are Belgian
citizens, all right, but there are not enough defining characteristics
to speak of a Belgian (BelgiAN, you see) people.
% neverthess,
% the government of Belgium as well private companies have been engaged
% and are still engaged in enterprise of imperialism and are still
% involved some of the darkest and sadest human tragedies in central
% Africa such as Rwanda, and Zaire.
Yeah, right! Next thing you're going to say is that the Rwanda massacre
was plotted by some perverted Belgian government officials!
Speaking of the Rwanda massacre, *that* is kind of an illuminating example
of the way in which business should be done in Africa, don't you think so?
One million people killed in only a couple of months time; even the nazi's
never reached such high 'levels' in their 'achievements'. Which won't
hamper you guys even the sligtest bit to continue saying that everything
that goes wrong nowadays in Africa is due to European colonialism/
racism/fascism/whateverism , and that Africans would have been far
better of if they were left alone ...
% If you do not know this, I ugre you to read relationship between
% successive regimes in Belgium
What 'successive regimes' in Belgium? Have you ever looked into political
evolution in Belgium since 1960 (year of Congo's independance)? The same
bunch of guys, although now splitted into 2 parties (CVP in Flanders,
PSC in Wallonia) have been in office ever since (admittedly, with different
partners, to make a majority).
% and the one of the most ruthless
% dictators in the African continent-- Mbuto of Zaire.
% After decades of Mbabuto's rule,
What exactly is his name? Mbuto? Mbabuto? Mbabubibetoto? Make up your
mind, please.
% today one of the richest in terms of
% natural resource in the Continenet of Africa is in total ruins.
... notwithstanding the fact that, during the later years of Belgian
occupation, although Congo wasn't an independant country (which
is wrong), there used to be stability, good roads, good and cheap
health care ... Only 30 years of black dictatorship have brought
this once so prosperous country to ruins, that's right.
% Finally, you do not know whether I am a woman or a man but yet you made
% up your mind a priori and decided to call me "a Lad"
Caught me there! But, since most contributors to the Usenet are men, it's
always the safest bet to presume the person you're talking to is male.
It is unfortunate, however, that plain English forces one to make this
kind of assumptions when one is writing to somebody. Probably, we
should consider switching to a completely genderless language. I'd
vote for Japanese ;)
% This is intersting for the following reasons:
% First, my name is posted in the piece which clearly indicates my
% gender. After all the name Amina is one of most common name in many parts of
% the world. This shows how little you know about the world outside of your
% little village;
Do I? Then, why is it that I am able to discuss with so many different
people around the globe in their native language,
while the only thing *you* seem to be able to mutter
is a lingo spread, first by Anglo-Saxon battle axes, and later by
English guns?
But yes, I humbly admit I've never come across the name 'Amira' before.
One is never too old to learn new things.
% second, in the American south, during slavery period,
% the white men used say when addressing black man "boy or lad".
% This of course, is designed to deny the black man's humanity.
% Now Potoms what makes you call me a Lad?
Never address people by their family name, unless if you add Mr. , Mrs. or Miss, dear.
It might be considered to be rude.
And I can't recall why, uncautiously having made the decision I was
talking to a man, I choose the word 'lad' instead of 'bloke', 'chap' or
'mate'. After all, I'm not a native English speaker, and hence don't
have special feelings about particular English words. And I think it
is not really fair to accuse a poor Belgian of having borrowed some
pejorative vocabulary from people who lived, 150 years ago, at
the other side of the world, don't you?
Gerrit
Abdinasir Magan
Gerrit Potoms wrote:
>
> ... to which I'd like to retort that 'historical contexts' have the
> strong inclination to change over time. The present attitude of Belgian
> government is as different from that of the one described in Conrad's
> 1902 novel than the latter was from the attitude of the 17th century's
> Spanish rulers of these regions or from that of the Roman occupation.
> You don't think we all still believe earth to be as flat as a pancake,
> just because our ancestors adhered to this belief, do you?
>
This is true. But this incident about the roasting of that defendless
Somali kid surely reflects continuity in the ugly side of the Belgian
History which has not changed, given these recent events, a lot since
the heyday of the imperial Belgian evil.
>Speaking of the Rwanda massacre, *that* is kind of an illuminating
>example of the way in which business should be done in Africa, don't
>you think so? One million people killed in only a couple of months
>time; even the nazi's never reached such high 'levels' in their
>'achievements'. Which won't hamper you guys even the sligtest bit to
>continue saying that everything that goes wrong nowadays in Africa is
>due to European colonialism/ racism/fascism/whateverism , and that
>Africans would have been far better of if they were left alone ...
Talking about the recent genocide in Rwanda, it was only when militant
gangs, trained and unleashed by the French Army, the genocide took place.
While the then President of France was lecturing the rest of the world
that he would not tolerate such international horror, an estimated of 200
French troops were actively participating in Rwanda’s genocide. They
also encouraged the Hutus to wipe out the entire Tutsi population. Now
you tell me if the Europeans have not, negetively, intervened in the
domestic affairs of Rwanda?? Why can't you leave us alone, guys :).
You see, the Europeans have not been an indifferent part in Rwanda’s
genocide troubles. This appalling “collective” genocide was carried out
daily by gangs of `Western' trained milita-men from Hutu majority and
the West, France to be precise. The West nowadays intervene, directly or
indirectly, in the domestic affairs of many African states not because
they cater for the victims of the "enginereed" civil unrests but because
their intention is the pursue of their self-interest. They often use
`Humanitarianism', a reworked version of the old Colonialism, to cover up
their real motives.
Bye
Abdinasir Magan
Abdinasir Magan
> Gerrit Potoms wrote:
>
>... to which I'd like to retort that 'historical contexts' have the
>strong inclination to change over time. The present attitude of
>Belgian government is as different from that of the one described in
>Conrad's 1902 novel than the latter was from the attitude of the 17th
>century's Spanish rulers of these regions or from that of the Roman
>occupation. You don't think we all still believe earth to be as flat as
>a pancake, just because our ancestors adhered to this belief, do you?
This is true. But this incident about the roasting of that defendless
Somali kid surely reflects continuity in the ugly side of the Belgian
History which has not changed, given these recent events, a lot since
the heyday of the imperial Belgian evil.
>
> >Speaking of the Rwanda massacre, *that* is kind of an illuminating
> >example of the way in which business should be done in Africa, don't
> >you think so? One million people killed in only a couple of months
> >time; even the nazi's never reached such high 'levels' in their
> >'achievements'. Which won't hamper you guys even the sligtest bit to
> >continue saying that everything that goes wrong nowadays in Africa is
> >due to European colonialism/ racism/fascism/whateverism , and that
> >Africans would have been far better of if they were left alone ...
Talking about the recent genocide in Rwanda, it was only when militant
gangs, trained and unleashed by the French Army, the genocide took
place.While the then President of France was lecturing the rest of the
Steph Feremans
Gerrit Potoms <pot...@esat.kuleuven.ac.be> wrote:
>That should be a BelgiAN citizen. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BELGIAN
>PEOPLE, for crying out loud!! Are you blind, or what? There are Belgian
>citizens, all right, but there are not enough defining characteristics
>to speak of a Belgian (BelgiAN, you see) people.
Not true. There sure is something like Belgian people. I am one of them, and I think we
are many many more than the few which consider themselves as flemish or walloon first.
Gerrit Potoms
st...@vub.ac.be (Steph Feremans) writes:
% Gerrit Potoms <pot...@esat.kuleuven.ac.be> wrote:
% >That should be a BelgiAN citizen. AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BELGIAN
% >PEOPLE, for crying out loud!! Are you blind, or what? There are Belgian
% >citizens, all right, but there are not enough defining characteristics
% >to speak of a Belgian (BelgiAN, you see) people.
%
%
% Not true. There sure is something like Belgian people.
% I am one of them, and I think we
% are many many more than the few which consider themselves
% as flemish or walloon first.
Get yourself a life.
Gerrit
Waqar Ali Shah
Please bear in mind that being Islamic means subscribing to the religion
Islam. It does not imply anything regarding race.
hay...@glo.be wrote:
: My gsm and my friends wallet just got stolen by "an african
: representative" here in Belgium. Because we were not Islamic?
: Am I a victim of racism ?
--
Aniruddha Das
st...@vub.ac.be (Steph Feremans) wrote:
>
> It is a shame they were not found guilty. Happily our minister of defence
> does not agree and is looking for some other possibilities to punish one of them
> (the other left the army already) and will try to sweep out racism in the army.
>
> Let's hope he succeeds, and please, be aware that most Belgians do not agree
> with fascist pigs as antony.
I am certainly glad to hear that!! I agree that we should not
stereotype Belgians as fascists or racists...I know of many very broad
minded Belgians..I think we should condemn such activites as that of
the two soldiers regardless of their skin color. Those two were
bigots and sadists and in a way I feel sorry for their lack of
intellect and for the fact that they really haven't evolved into human
beings yet. Anyway..animals exist in all races, and we should condemn
them everywhere...
Nandan