The name "Hazelrigg" -- origin/meaning?
DCGuerra
I'd appreciate any insight into this name.
Thank you in advance!
Donata
Roderick MacDonald
The message <199805121712...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
from dcgu...@aol.com (DCGuerra) contains these words:
> I'd appreciate any insight into this name.
> Thank you in advance!
> Donata
According to my gazetteer, there is a Hazelrigg about 10 miles inland
from Bamburgh, Northumberland, and a Hazlerigg just north of
Newcastle, also Northumberland. The "rigg" part may be from the same
route as "ridge", making the place name mean "ridge of hazel-trees."
HTH
Rod
DCGuerra
><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: The name "Hazelrigg" -- origin/meaning?
>From: Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk>
>Date: Tue, May 12, 1998 15:04 EDT
>Message-id: <199805122...@zetnet.co.uk>
Thank you, Rod. Have you come across many with this surname?
I met one (in the American South) who told me it was a "Highland name" and
that's about all he knew of it. (Yes, I use it you-know-where;-))
The thing is: I was over in the Welsh group gathering more material to use in
a major scene amplification and stumbled across a discussion of the root
"hazel" which, of course, is not the same in Welsh.
(Hazelrigg is my Countess' devouted longbowman.)
And you must know that the discourse we had, as picked up by Marjorie and Helen
has got me thinking about some misconceptions historians (or others) may have
about how some of us latch onto historical situations for dramatic purposes.
Don't have time now, but will expound later on a specific statement you make in
"Jews in Scotland". I think I'll change the string name to History/Art/Truth
at that point.
Thank you for checking your gazetteer for me (I assume this is a "map"!)
Sincerely,
Donata
Roderick MacDonald
The message <199805122141...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
from dcgu...@aol.com (DCGuerra) contains these words:
> >According to my gazetteer, there is a Hazelrigg about 10 miles inland
> >from Bamburgh, Northumberland, and a Hazlerigg just north of
> >Newcastle, also Northumberland. The "rigg" part may be from the same
> >route as "ridge", making the place name mean "ridge of hazel-trees."
> >
> >HTH
> >
> >Rod
> Thank you, Rod. Have you come across many with this surname?
As my memory serves, none at all. I know a Jill Rigg - she has four
sisters and one of them may be called Hazel....
> I met one (in the American South) who told me it was a "Highland name" and
> that's about all he knew of it. (Yes, I use it you-know-where;-))
It doesn't sound very Highland to me, but hey, don't let that stop you.
> The thing is: I was over in the Welsh group gathering more material to use in
> a major scene amplification and stumbled across a discussion of the root
> "hazel" which, of course, is not the same in Welsh.
> (Hazelrigg is my Countess' devouted longbowman.)
I thought the Countess of Buchan's Bowman was called Davie, and was
well-known for his tangerine jerkin. He may have been devout, or he
may have been devoted, but he is best known from the stirring 14th
century ballad "Davie, Bowman of Tannadice."
> And you must know that the discourse we had, as picked up by Marjorie and Helen
> has got me thinking about some misconceptions historians (or others) may have
> about how some of us latch onto historical situations for dramatic purposes.
You should spend more time thinking about the misconceptions
"dramatists" have about history.
> Don't have time now, but will expound later on a specific statement you make in
> "Jews in Scotland". I think I'll change the string name to History/Art/Truth
> at that point.
My juices are oozing in anticipation.
> Thank you for checking your gazetteer for me (I assume this is a "map"!)
You assume incorrectly - it was in fact a gazetteer.
> Sincerely,
> Donata
Love and hugs
Rod
hel...@networx.on.ca
In article <199805130...@zetnet.co.uk>,
Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The message <199805122141...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
> from dcgu...@aol.com (DCGuerra) contains these words:
>
> > >According to my gazetteer, there is a Hazelrigg about 10 miles inland
> > >from Bamburgh, Northumberland, and a Hazlerigg just north of
> > >Newcastle, also Northumberland. The "rigg" part may be from the same
> > >route as "ridge", making the place name mean "ridge of hazel-trees."
> > >
> > >HTH
> > >
> > >Rod
>
> > Thank you, Rod. Have you come across many with this surname?
>
> As my memory serves, none at all. I know a Jill Rigg - she has four
> sisters and one of them may be called Hazel....
Very cute :-)
> > I met one (in the American South) who told me it was a "Highland name" and
> > that's about all he knew of it. (Yes, I use it you-know-where;-))
>
> It doesn't sound very Highland to me, but hey, don't let that stop you.
I found this on the Internet, so can't vouch for the truth of it;
"Hazelrigg is a family of Anglo-Saxon origin before the year 1100 and
appears first in the ancient records in Northumberland."
Helen
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
DCGuerra
Subject: Re: The name "Hazelrigg" -- origin/meaning?
From: Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk>
Message-id: <199805130...@zetnet.co.uk>
The message <199805122141...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
from dcgu...@aol.com (DCGuerra) contains these words:
>> >According to my gazetteer, there is a Hazelrigg about 10 miles inland >>
>> I met one (in the American South) who told me it was a "Highland name" and
>> that's about all he knew of it. (Yes, I use it you-know-where;-))
>It doesn't sound very Highland to me, but hey, don't let that stop >you.
And knowing me, you know it won't. ;-)
>> The thing is: I was over in the Welsh group gathering more material to use
in
>> a major scene amplification and stumbled across a discussion of the root
>> "hazel" which, of course, is not the same in Welsh.
>> (Hazelrigg is my Countess' devouted longbowman.)
>:I thought the Countess of Buchan's Bowman was called Davie, >and was
>:well-known for his tangerine jerkin.
Tangerine jerkin! He sounds delicious. And perhaps as tart
to the mouth as sweet green gherkins hereabouts! Acidic entering and acerbic
coming out...
>: He may have been devout, or he
>:may have been devoted, but he is best known from the stirring >14th
>:century ballad "Davie, Bowman of Tannadice."
Devout and devoted --- have you ever noticed how the
religious and the erotic intertwine in our imaginations?
> >Don't have time now, but will expound later on a specific statement you make
in
> >"Jews in Scotland". I think I'll change the string name to
History/Art/Truth
> >at that point.
>My juices are oozing in anticipation.
I suspect your juices are more gherkin than jerkin.
>> Thank you for checking your gazetteer for me (I assume this is a "map"!)
>:You assume incorrectly - it was in fact a gazetteer.
Geographical dictionary, then? A word not seen often in these parts.
>Love and hugs
>Rod
Warm busses,
Donata
Edward(both furious and amused): "We come merely to conquer, crush, subjugate,
and punish the Scots... and instead sense a delicious temptation to toss this
general-in-skirts from her own
battlements!" --- _Caged_, copyright Donata Guerra, US Library of Congress
DCGuerra
>HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: The name "Hazelrigg" -- origin/meaning?
>From: hel...@networx.on.ca
>Date: Wed, May 13, 1998 13:21 EDT
>Message-id: <6jckr6$ljc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>> from dcgu...@aol.com (DCGuerra) contains these words:
>>
>> > >According to my gazetteer, there is a Hazelrigg about 10 miles inland
>> > >Newcastle, also Northumberland. The "rigg" part may be from the same
>> > >route as "ridge", making the place name mean "ridge of hazel-trees."
>> > >
>> > >HTH
>> > >
>> > >Rod
>>
>> > Thank you, Rod. Have you come across many with this surname?
>>
>> As my memory serves, none at all. I know a Jill Rigg - she has four
>> sisters and one of them may be called Hazel....
>
> Very cute :-)
Helen, Rod beats me on this comeback and leaves me speechless.
>
>> > I met one (in the American South) who told me it was a "Highland name"
>and
>> > that's about all he knew of it. (Yes, I use it you-know-where;-))
>>
>> It doesn't sound very Highland to me, but hey, don't let that stop you.
>
> I found this on the Internet, so can't vouch for the truth of it;
>
> "Hazelrigg is a family of Anglo-Saxon origin before the year 1100 and
> appears first in the ancient records in Northumberland."
>
> Helen
Helen, the long file you sent me won't translate on my computer, but I did make
it to the geneology site. Thank you!
I wonder if you can help me out on the name "Adger" -- one I gave Edward's
arrogant t cavalry captain (who bowed with such insolence to the encaged
Countess that the audience murmured.)
I have been looking for Adger on the Internet but can find nothing. I know it
must be an English name that I found in a source when writing the drama. Mind
you, I wrote the play five years ago and havesince taken on other projects
that literally swamp my memory and study shelves. These surnames are in books
in obscure libraries I no longer frequent!
Thank heavens for the Internet!
Donata
hel...@networx.on.ca
In article <199805141320...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
dcgu...@aol.com (DCGuerra) wrote:
> >> > Thank you, Rod. Have you come across many with this surname?
> >> Rod wrote:
> >> As my memory serves, none at all. I know a Jill Rigg - she has four
> >> sisters and one of them may be called Hazel....
> >
Helen wrote:
> > Very cute :-)
>
> Helen, Rod beats me on this comeback and leaves me speechless.
>
> > >> I met one (in the American South) who told me it was a "Highland name"
> > >>and that's about all he knew of it. (Yes, I use it you-know-where;-))
> >> Rod wrote:
> >> It doesn't sound very Highland to me, but hey, don't let that stop you.
> >
> > I found this on the Internet, so can't vouch for the truth of it;
> >
> > "Hazelrigg is a family of Anglo-Saxon origin before the year 1100 and
> > appears first in the ancient records in Northumberland."
> >
> > Helen
>
> Helen, the long file you sent me won't translate on my computer, but I did
> make it to the geneology site. Thank you!
>
> I wonder if you can help me out on the name "Adger" -- one I gave Edward's
> arrogant t cavalry captain (who bowed with such insolence to the encaged
> Countess that the audience murmured.)
>
> I have been looking for Adger on the Internet but can find nothing. I know
> it must be an English name that I found in a source when writing the drama.
> Mind you, I wrote the play five years ago and havesince taken on other
> projects that literally swamp my memory and study shelves. These surnames
> are in books in obscure libraries I no longer frequent!
>
> Thank heavens for the Internet!
>
> Donata
As far as Adger goes, it would seem that it is a Berwickshire family name
dating back to c.11th century.
Just a piece of trivia that I picked up along the way. It seems that
adger is a vt. meaning - To make a bonehead move with consequences that
could have been foreseen with even slight mental effort. E.g. 'He
started removing files and promptly adgered the whole project'.
This is according to something called the "The on-line hacker Jargon
File version 3.0.0, 27 JUL 1993". I'm still trying to find its etymology.
Ian Johnston
There are lots of places called "rig" or "rigg" in Galloway - I have seen it
claimed that this derives from the Gaelic for field. Perhaps one of the
local Gaels could confirm this?
Ian
Roderick MacDonald
The message <6jh3hn$o44$5...@news.ox.ac.uk>
from engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston) contains these words:
> Ian
There are indeed - I looked it up in Maxwell's "Place Names of
Galloway" and it gives examples like:
Riggins Hill - diminutive of rig, a ridge, a small ridge or rising in
the ground.
Rig o' Divots - Ridge of sods, turf.
Rig o' the Wellees - Ridge of the springs
A rig is also a strip of land, as in runrig, but I guess we all knew
that already.
Gaelic for field is "achadh" Is there another word?
Rod
From deepest, darkest Galloway.
Ian Johnston
Roderick MacDonald (r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk) wrote:
: There are indeed - I looked it up in Maxwell's "Place Names of
: Galloway" and it gives examples like:
: Riggins Hill - diminutive of rig, a ridge, a small ridge or rising in
: the ground.
Galloway has the best places names in Britain: you can walk over Rig of the
Jarness past Point of Snibe to the Range of the Awful Hand. As I hope to
do on Monday, weather permitting.
Ian
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig
On 15 May 1998 09:57:11 GMT, engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Ian Johnston)
wrote:
>There are lots of places called "rig" or "rigg" in Galloway - I have seen it
>claimed that this derives from the Gaelic for field. Perhaps one of the
>local Gaels could confirm this?
>
>Ian
As I recollect (caveat):
Rig or rigg is Scots for ridge and refers to the old-style method of
dividing the common farmland between families. Typically, a glen or
strath was divided into three qualities; good bottom land, less good
middle land and marginal upper land. Each family got one or more
strips of each so the wealth would be equally shared. They were
divided by small ridges to separate one man's crop from another, on
which the farmer could walk through to the back of his strip without
having to step on growing crops,
The system started to fall apart when fathers split their strips to
give each son a share and so on down the centuries. Rotation of crops
was not practised, I believe because every inch of arable soil was
needed to produce the poor quality, near-wild oats called bere.
By 1745 many village rigs were in deplorably depleted condition and
starvation was common. After the defeat at Culloden in 1746, the
English sent a land commission to study the Highlands and they brought
about some very sensible and humane changes which included the
abolition of the rig system, which is still remembered in many
Highland areas such as the Black Isle, through farm names which end in
rig or rigs.
When crop failures hit in 1782 and 1783, and the standard of living
could not be lowered any further, the Malthusian ceiling was reached
and emigration became the sole hope, with many selling themselves into
slavery to get passage to America while others died of hunger at the
roadside or on the seashore where they could survive a little longer
on seaweed, a scene that was to be repeated during the Potato Famine.
This was when the drinking of cow's blood mixed with milk became the
sole winter diet of many villages after the beef from the few cows
slaughtered in late autumn ran out. (Thus the "lifting time" - dawn -
when the cattle were lifted to their feet to graze because they were
too weak from the constant blood-letting to rise by themselves.)
However, because of the introduction of the potato with its superior
nutritional value, the population exploded and again the land suffered
as crop rotation was abandoned in order to feed all the mouths.
Grazing land was also severely damaged by the introduction of sheep
instead of cattle and has never really recovered as the curse of
Highland farming; heather and bracken, took over.
Starting in the early 1800s, savage clearances took place as sheep
were introduced and people left in large numbers for America.
Finally the Potato Famine devastated the population and so many left
it never again reached its former size. (396,000-odd in 1841.) Two
names stand out at this time, MacLeod of Dunvegan and MacDonald of
MacDonald; chiefs who bankrupted themselves to feed their clansmen.
There were others who bought grain for their people, but the famine
was too severe to be stemmed by individual efforts.
It is interesting to note that many modern researchers feel that the
government's dismantling of the clan system, with its chiefly checks
against marriage until a man had the means to support a wife (cottage,
cow, arable land) - still hanging on in Ireland with its famous people
not marrying until their mid-30's custom - was largely responsible for
the post-1745 problems which undoutedly came about because of the
population increase.
Too late to do anything about it now, that's for sure, as all that
grows in many parts of the Highlands today are Forestry Commission
trees; a last desperate effort to wrest the land back from the desert
of heather and bracken. The man who finds a way to kill them off - I'm
sure we'd keep some for auld lang syne - will make his fortune.
Měcheil Rob Mac Phŕdruig
"Faire faire dhuin' ňig
cia do bharantas mór?
'N i do bharail bhith
beň 's nach eug thu?"
John Mack
On Fri, 15 May 1998, Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig wrote:
>
> Rig or rigg is Scots for ridge and refers to the old-style method of
> dividing the common farmland between families. Typically, a glen or
> strath was divided into three qualities; good bottom land, less good
> middle land and marginal upper land. Each family got one or more
> strips of each so the wealth would be equally shared. They were
> divided by small ridges to separate one man's crop from another, on
> which the farmer could walk through to the back of his strip without
> having to step on growing crops,
>
> The system started to fall apart when fathers split their strips to
> give each son a share and so on down the centuries. Rotation of crops
> was not practised, I believe because every inch of arable soil was
> needed to produce the poor quality, near-wild oats called bere.
>
That sounds a lot like what happens in Shetland. A rig, the word is still
in use BTW, is a field up a hill side used for tatties, neaps, rye grass
or bere/barley often with strips of each rotating year by year. A field
used just as pasture for livestock on the other hand is normally called a
park.
John Mack
Marjorie
Micheil Rob Mac Phŕdruig wrote:
>
>
> Too late to do anything about it now, that's for sure, as all that
> grows in many parts of the Highlands today are Forestry Commission
> trees; a last desperate effort to wrest the land back from the desert
> of heather and bracken.
>
into the heart of Wales from the coast between Aberystwyth and
Canaervon...into what looked to be primeval forest. Have seen nothing
like it in either England or Scotland.
Does anyone know what were the original hardwoods in the Highlands
before deforestation? Are there any attempts to restore them anywhere
or is it all going into softwood conifers?
When did the major forests of Scotland disappear? 14th c? 15th c? or
later?
Regards,
Marjorie
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig
On Fri, 15 May 1998 23:21:16 +0000, Marjorie <ma...@frognet.net>
wrote:
Some of the original hardwoods were oak, as bog oak - oak preserved
underground in bogs - can still be found, often used for carving and
small items such as sgian dubh (kilt stocking knife) handles.
The modern trend is to plant fast-growing conifers and hybrid larch.
The government pinned its hopes on forestry as an industry; looking to
countries like Austria which did very well economically with a
reforestation program which created many jobs. The difficulty is scale
- you need a lot of land to be in major forestry because the crop
takes up to 25 years to mature.
Canada has its own problems with that, as although there are still
enormous stocks of original growth, they are hard to access.
Reforestation has been practiced less than promised and secondary
growth is not nearly as high-quality as original growth; something the
buyers have been quick to point out when buying allegedly Grade A
lumber which seems to have more of the characteristics of Grade B.
An odd footnote is that in the early days, many of the original growth
cut, perhaps up to 20%, was lost in storms and so on, as all lumber on
Canada is transported by floating it as huge rafts, some a mile or
more long. This original lumber is now being salvaged from lake
bottoms and is of a quality rarely seen today. Most of it is also too
large in circumference for modern sawmills to handle!
Of course the original stumps still survive and I was estimating
age-rings the other day on a huge log stump which floated ashore. I
calculated it to be about 700 years old, with the rings tightly
compacted, so it would be a good dense hard wood. The secondary growth
is perhaps 20 - 30 years old when it's cut, with widely spaced rings;
typically fast-growing characteristics. No one can tell me the quality
is the same. Of course for pulp and paper it doesn't matter, but for
ornamental wood building - wood for Asian temples is getting to be big
here - only the best is acceptable and Canada has some of the finest
wood in the world.
Some years ago I was chatting with an Austrian and his son on the
beach in Vancouver. I had made a fire and was burning cedar driftwood
to cook souvlaki - the wood gives it a wonderful taste. It turned out
that the Austrians were harpsichord and piano makers, in Canada to buy
raw materials. The father examined the wood I was burning and remarked
that in Austria they used a poorer quality for their instruments. I
was a little taken aback - a sense of being a Philistine - and he
understood my reaction and said, "Why not burn it - the trees go on
for ever." And they do, millions of acres of them.
The biggest forest fire here in recent times burned an area larger
than Belgium. It barely made a dent. So far this year there have been
245 fires in British Columbia, destroying 1,826 hectares (4,510 acres)
out of a total 50 million hectares (124 million acres) worth $16.5
billion per year; about half the province's income. The Canada total
burned in 1994 was 2 million hectares (5 million acres) out of a total
417.6 million hectares (1 billion acres) covering about half of
Canada. Remember, Canada is the world's second biggest country.
Remember too that Bill Gates, who lives just a few miles from me, has
nearly $50 billion US to his name, while Canada's $1 (the figures used
above) is worth about 70% of a US $1 and very roughly 50p. Gives one a
sense of perspective, doesn't it?
Firefighting costs about $143 million a year and about 50% are started
by people - campfires, broken glass in sunlight, etc. The rest are
started by lightning strikes. All the evidence shows that regular
burns are good for the forest so it's not as bad as it sounds, but
naturally the state is anxious to protect what it can because the
financial return is so massive.
So in terms of Scotland it seems rather hopeless growing timber, but
actually it isn't. Reforestation is the best and fastest way to
reclaim abandoned land and there's plenty cheap timber worldwide to
keep the pulp mill at Fort William (for example) going until
Scotland's new forests kick in. This is the great Canadian problem,
lowering costs to match Brazil and Indonesia and that why specialty
Asian woods - everything from Japanese houses to temples to you name
it, are so important.
Wood used for temples returns 10 times the value of wood cut for
regular use. It's prefinished to very exacting standards and has been
the salvation of at least one B.C. town which was on the edge of being
abandoned. (Towns are literally abandoned here when things go wrong -
you can sail the coastal waters and see towns in A-1 condition with no
humans for 200 miles because the work ran out. Very eerie.)
It's no wonder when the Highlanders first came to Nova Scotia, and the
Indians showed them that they had nothing to fear from the forests,
that within three years a thriving lumber trade was in place, sending
wood back home. Washington State is heavily Norwegian for just that
reason; lumbering and fishing are traditional Norwegian trades. Lots
of pretty blondes where I live!
And like Nova Scotia, it's very Scottish-looking, so I feel no sense
of strangeness, especially as millions of people of Scottish descent
live in the States and have set up pipe bands and Burns Clubs beyond
number. In Vancouver alone, a fairly short drive away across the
border, I have a choice of four Scottish bakers to buy my pan loaves
from, which I never do now without thinking of John Mack and feeling
guilty in case folk think I'm from Morningside!
Still, I remember what my uncle said about returning home from Sicily.
"I saw Africa and Italy and many other places, but the most beautiful
sight I ever saw was when the ship sailed into the Firth of Clyde."
How true. I sit here at night, typing and listening to the sea and the
wind in the forest and sometimes I do get hellish homesick.
DOBSCAN
>I wonder if you can help me out on the name "Adger" -- one I gave Edward's
>arrogant t cavalry captain (who bowed with such insolence to the encaged
>Countess that the audience murmured.)
It may be an anglasised version of Auger a French name.pronounced "Oh je ay"
dave
Michael Wade
In article <355c8287...@news.whidbey.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?Micheil_
Rob_Mac_Ph=E0druig?= <mik...@whidbey.com> writes
>When crop failures hit in 1782 and 1783, and the standard of living
>could not be lowered any further, the Malthusian ceiling was reached
>and emigration became the sole hope, with many selling themselves into
>slavery to get passage to America while others died of hunger at the
>roadside or on the seashore where they could survive a little longer
>on seaweed, a scene that was to be repeated during the Potato Famine.
>
It's my impression that prior to the 1840s, many people left the land
because they actually wanted to, and many landlords actively sought to
stop people emigrating. America and Canada were lands of opportunity
for people who lived in grinding poverty and many thousands *chose* to
go.
You're quite right though, the old agricultural system could not sustain
the strong growth in population of the Highlands.
>However, because of the introduction of the potato with its superior
>nutritional value,
>Starting in the early 1800s, savage clearances took place as sheep
>were introduced and people left in large numbers for America.
Which were the savage clearance of the 1800s? As late as the 1820s I've
seen primary material which shows that landlords wanted people to stay
on the land, but couldn't stop them taking off to Glasgow (where there
was work) and abroad.
The clearance of Scots from the Highlands began as early as the c17.
>Finally the Potato Famine devastated the population and so many left
>it never again reached its former size. (396,000-odd in 1841.) Two
>names stand out at this time, MacLeod of Dunvegan and MacDonald o
f
>MacDonald; chiefs who bankrupted themselves to feed their clansmen.
Failure of the potato crop in the 1840s was a major cause of clearance
in some areas, notably Islay. The principal landowner, Walter Frederick
Cmapbell, had acqured the estate in 1788. He too bankrupted himself
trying to protect his tenants, clansmen or not.
>It is interesting to note that many modern researchers feel that the
>government's dismantling of the clan system, with its chiefly checks
>against marriage until a man had the means to support a wife (cottage,
>cow, arable land) - still hanging on in Ireland with its famous people
>not marrying until their mid-30's custom - was largely responsible for
>the post-1745 problems which undoutedly came about because of the
>population increase.
Which 'many modern researchers', as a matter of interest?
>
>Too late to do anything about it now, that's for sure, as all that
>grows in many parts of the Highlands today are Forestry Commission
>trees; a last desperate effort to wrest the land back from the desert
>of heather and bracken. The man who finds a way to kill them off - I'm
>sure we'd keep some for auld lang syne - will make his fortune.
Rhodedendrum is another big problem in some areas. Folks on
Ardnamurchan are fighting a loosing battle against it. Problem is it
gets into that oak woodland (the climax vegetation) and its very
bushiness blots out the light from the forest floor, stifling the
natural plants of the indigenous woodland.
--
Michael Wade
DCGuerra
Thank you, dave!
Sheila Viemeister
Michael Wade wrote:
snip
> It's my impression that prior to the 1840s, many people left the land
> because they actually wanted to, and many landlords actively sought to
> stop people emigrating. America and Canada were lands of opportunity
> for people who lived in grinding poverty and many thousands *chose* to
> go.
emigration.
snip
> >Starting in the early 1800s, savage clearances took place as sheep
> >were introduced and people left in large numbers for America.
> Which were the savage clearance of the 1800s?
One which comes to mind is Strathnaver - the clearances in Sutherland
were quite savage, and largely occurred _before_ the potato famine.
Sheila Mackay Viemeister
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig
>Which were the savage clearance of the 1800s? As late as the 1820s I've
>seen primary material which shows that landlords wanted people to stay
>on the land, but couldn't stop them taking off to Glasgow (where there
>was work) and abroad.
The most notorious of all - the Sutherland Clearances - took place in
1814 and 1819.
>The clearance of Scots from the Highlands began as early as the c17.
Really? Have you any details?
>Micheil_>Rob_Mac_Ph=E0druig?= <mik...@whidbey.com> wroe
>
>>It is interesting to note that many modern researchers feel that the
>>government's dismantling of the clan system, with its chiefly checks
>>against marriage until a man had the means to support a wife (cottage,
>>cow, arable land) - still hanging on in Ireland with its famous people
>>not marrying until their mid-30's custom - was largely responsible for
>>the post-1745 problems which undoutedly came about because of the
>>population increase.
>
>Which 'many modern researchers', as a matter of interest?
Lord Dundee and Fraser Darling were two. I haven't the references to
hand for others but in any case it's an obvious conclusion in
hindsight. When you remove the checks aginst young people marrying
without the proverbial pot to pee in and introduce a high-nourishment
food like the potato (compaaratively speaking), the ensuing population
explosion is going to be a time bomb, and that's what happened.
Under customary clan law, numbers were held down because people
couldn't get permission from the chief to marry until they showed they
could support a family; a sensible safeguard against overpopulation.
The famines in Africa in this century following the partial
disintegration of chiefly tribal authority underline the point.
>>Too late to do anything about it now, that's for sure, as all that
>>grows in many parts of the Highlands today are Forestry Commission
>>trees; a last desperate effort to wrest the land back from the desert
>>of heather and bracken. The man who finds a way to kill them off - I'm
>>sure we'd keep some for auld lang syne - will make his fortune.
>
>Rhodedendrum is another big problem in some areas. Folks on
>Ardnamurchan are fighting a loosing battle against it. Problem is it
>gets into that oak woodland (the climax vegetation) and its very
>bushiness blots out the light from the forest floor, stifling the
>natural plants of the indigenous woodland.
>
I think I mentioned here before that I've actually seen it growing
right over the trees to form a canopy in Dorset, England. My mother
said she flew for several hundred miles over jungle in India with the
most amazing colour displays beneath her because of it doing the same.
Michael Wade
In article <355e45b1...@news.whidbey.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?Micheil_
Rob_Mac_Ph=E0druig?= <mik...@whidbey.com> writes
>>The clearance of Scots from the Highlands began as early as the c17.
>
>Really? Have you any details?
Someone who knows someone I'm working with is preparing a CD Rom about
Scots emigration to the Carolinas and Virginia. Interested? I'll post
more details when I know them.
--
Michael Wade
Michael Wade
In article <355DE19E...@viemeister.com>, Sheila Viemeister
<she...@viemeister.com> writes
>One which comes to mind is Strathnaver - the clearances in Sutherland
>were quite savage, and largely occurred _before_ the potato famine.
>
>Sheila Mackay Viemeister
True.
'Clearance' is a very emotive word for what appears to have been a very
complex process.
Of course there were savage evictions of many, many people. But others,
thousands of people, left the land of their own accord, over a very long
period of time.
--
Michael Wade
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig
>'Clearance' is a very emotive word for what appears to have been a very
>complex process.
>
>Of course there were savage evictions of many, many people. But others,
>thousands of people, left the land of their own accord, over a very long
>period of time.
Why do I get the feeling that you see this as ungrateful people
rejecting a favourable situation?
These people were refugees, escaping a life of brutal deprivation.
Consider that they knew they would never return; we know that because
songs and poems of the time talk of them in terms of being seen off as
though at a funeral; and they were going to a country thought of as
savage and wild, of which they knew almost nothing; where few would be
able to understand their language, etc. and there was no guarantee of
their survival. They are exactly cognate with the Irish emigrants and
their leaving represented an act of desperation.
There is a book called "Scotland Farewell" you might read which
contains full details of the emigrants going to Nova Scotia, including
long lists of passenger names where known; a story of heart-rending
cheating and lying by the promoters, leading to terrible hardship and
death. Yet it has a positive side, because the people were determined
to survive and did, and to this day consider themselves Highlanders
who live far from home.
Are you familar with the Canadian Boat Song? It's a Nova Scotia icon.
"From the lone shieling on the misty islands,
Mountains divide us, and the waste of seas.
Yet still the blood is true, the heart is Highland
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides."
Among all the peoples of Britain, only the Highland and the Irish
people had this experience and it has scarred our folk memories to a
degree inconceivable to those without a similar episode in their
history. Of course it has less impact in the homelands, but to those
of emigrant descent, it is a primary emotion and mocked only at
considerable risk to oneself. (I'm not suggesting that you or anyone
else is mocking it - we'll see if "someone" decides to.)
When talking to the descendants of the emigrants here, I am always
impressed by the degree of emotion most feel about it. It is the
direct cause of the powerful pro-IRA lobby here and the notorious
"Collecting for the Cause" collection tins one sees in American-Irish
pubs. And it also explains the still-strong prejudice against the
Highland chiefs in Nova Scotia, who were seen by the emigrants as
having failed in their duty to protect their clansmen.
It's a sad fact that the MacNab led his whole clan to Canada in 1819
as did the MacNeill with 370 Barra men in 1802; to the Carolinas, I
believe. The MacNeills did fine; the MacNab turned into a tyrant and
his clan had to be rescued by the government from the life of serfdom
he forced them into. However, that's by the by; when whole tribes move
out, you know there is a serious problem. And the families who went
ensured that their children never forgot why they had to go. They have
much in common with peoples like the Nez Perce, the Cherokee and the
Sioux who have their own "Trail of Tears" histories which still
influence their thinking.
I tend to be very dogmatic about these things because I identify very
strongly with them, particularly when, in Nova Scotia, I met the
descendants of people from my own island, which reduced me to tears. I
cannot begin to convey to you the emotions that poured through me when
I saw those smiling faces that should have been part of my childhood
but weren't because of the stupidities and brutalities that ripped our
people apart.
The feeling of "clan" is still very powerful; don't believe those
idiots who post to say that the clan system has vanished, because it
simply isn't true; and it especially isn't true for those clan members
who live overseas, as witness the turnouts whenever their chiefs visit
them. There seems to be a tremendous need in southern Scotland to
denigrate and belittle our culture and I for one am utterly sick of it
and quite certain I'm not alone. I find it ironic that they despise us
so, yet have eagerly ripped off our culture for its icons like
bagpipes and kilts, and even invented clans for families whose
ancestors would have shot a Highlander on sight. It's like the Ku Klux
Klan claiming that rhythm and blues is a Euopean invention.
Without of course wishing to suggest that the two are comparable, the
Clearances and the Holocaust have produced much the same mindset in
the descendants of those who survived them; namely, "Never again!"
BTW, re. your friend's CD about clearances, yes, please post details
when you have them.
Michael Wade
In article <355f344f...@news.whidbey.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?Micheil_
Rob_Mac_Ph=E0druig?= <mik...@whidbey.com> writes
MW:
>
>>'Clearance' is a very emotive word for what appears to have been a very
>>complex process.
>>
>>Of course there were savage evictions of many, many people. But others,
>>thousands of people, left the land of their own accord, over a very long
>>period of time.
MP:
>
>Why do I get the feeling that you see this as ungrateful people
>rejecting a favourable situation?
>
I have no idea, since I gave absolutely no suggestion of this.
>These people were refugees, escaping a life of brutal deprivation.
*snipping of interesting material about Nova Scotia*
This is true of many thousands of people. But, as well, many thousands
of others *chose* to go, and the process of emigration from Scotland
went on over centuries.
Your evidence is of a very significant and moving story which is, as you
say, quite properly part of the folk memory.
There are however significant factors involved in other emgirations, as
well as the 'savage clearances' of which you speak. Population
pressure, for example, is a simple factor which you noted earlier.
Many, many people actively chose to leave Scotland, and some who left
did so despite the best efforts of others to keep them here.
>(I'm not suggesting that you or anyone
>else is mocking it - we'll see if "someone" decides to.)
Good. Because I'm not mocking.
>
>And the families who went
>ensured that their children never forgot why they had to go. They have
>much in common with peoples like the Nez Perce, the Cherokee and the
>Sioux who have their own "Trail of Tears" histories which still
>influence their thinking.
But paradoxically, surely, Scots and other emigrants effectively cleared
native Americans from their lands? Or Aborigines, or Maoris. These
indigenous peoples, arguably, have been hidden from view (indeed they
still are), rather as the Highlanders were at the time of the
catastrophe of which you speak.
>There seems to be a tremendous need in southern Scotland to
>denigrate and belittle our culture and I for one am utterly sick of it
>and quite certain I'm not alone.
I'm not seeking to do this. I merely observed that the reasons for
leaving Scotland were many and complex.
>I find it ironic that they despise us
>so, yet have eagerly ripped off our culture for its icons like
>bagpipes and kilts, and even invented clans for families whose
>ancestors would have shot a Highlander on sight.
I don't despise anyone, and meet with very few examples of this attitude
amongst Lowlanders towards Highlanders. When I say 'few' I can't
actually think of any.
Presumably the army and Empire were in part responsible for popularising
the bagpipes and the kilt? Do you deplore their evolution as kinds of
national icon?
>BTW, re. your friend's CD about clearances, yes, please post details
>when you have them.
Watch this space - though you might have to watch it for a few months.
--
Michael Wade
Sandy Morton
In article <355d3d8a...@news.whidbey.com>,
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig <mik...@whidbey.com> wrote:
much snipped
> Of course the original stumps still survive and I was estimating
> age-rings the other day on a huge log stump which floated ashore. I
> calculated it to be about 700 years old, with the rings tightly
> compacted, so it would be a good dense hard wood.
Did you sow it or plant it?
Much more snipped
> Still, I remember what my uncle said about returning home from Sicily.
> "I saw Africa and Italy and many other places, but the most beautiful
> sight I ever saw was when the ship sailed into the Firth of Clyde."
> How true. I sit here at night, typing and listening to the sea and the
> wind in the forest and sometimes I do get hellish homesick.
I presume that he was on the right side of the boat and saw the
Cumbraes firts?
--
Sandy Millport
on the bicycle island
in the global village
Richard Kaulfuss
> > grows in many parts of the Highlands today are Forestry Commission
> > trees; a last desperate effort to wrest the land back from the desert
> > of heather and bracken.
> >
> into the heart of Wales from the coast between Aberystwyth and
> Canaervon...into what looked to be primeval forest. Have seen nothing
> like it in either England or Scotland.
> Does anyone know what were the original hardwoods in the Highlands
> before deforestation? Are there any attempts to restore them anywhere
> or is it all going into softwood conifers?
I know of one area which is being planted with native species. It's
quite close to one of the few remaining pockets of Ancient Caledonian
Forest. Ironically, given the proximity to the scene of the Glencalvie
clearance of 150 years ago, it is now the sheep, and those whose
livelihoods depend on them, that have been cleared.
> When did the major forests of Scotland disappear? 14th c? 15th c? or
> later?
>
The process has been ongoing since the Bronze Age. I think it was more
of a gradual thinning out, rather than wholesale felling.
--
Dick
DOBSCAN
In article <FJMiqHAo...@mwade.demon.co.uk>, Michael Wade
<cel...@mwade.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:27:52 +0100
>
>In article <355DE19E...@viemeister.com>, Sheila Viemeister
><she...@viemeister.com> writes
>
>>One which comes to mind is Strathnaver - the clearances in Sutherland
>>were quite savage, and largely occurred _before_ the potato famine.
>>
>>Sheila Mackay Viemeister
>
>True.
>
>'Clearance' is a very emotive word for what appears to have been a very
>complex process.
>
Not complex, sheep earned the absentee landlords more money than the people so
the people were thrown off the land. In many instances the parents of lads
serving in the Kings Highland Regiments came home to find that their parents
had been burnt out and deported/transported.
>Of course there were savage evictions of many, many people. But others,
>thousands of people, left the land of their own accord, over a very long
>period of time.
The highlands were over populated so many in the 1600 decided to leave and get
some of the land in the colonies. Imagine plenty of food to hunt, land of
yourown to grow things, lumber up the wazzoo and fresh water as well as no clan
chief busting your Balls to pay a rent.
Then the chiefs/lords/land owners needed the sea weed so they forced the
government to increase fares and levie a tax so the people could not afford to
leave. Then after the Napolionic wars the sheep could make more money, the land
was ruined and deforested and the people were thrown away and discarded.
Sort of why less of a fuss is made of the Chiefs in Scotland than is made by
the "Colonials" searching their roots. I met a couple of chiefs last year at
the Games in Maxville and was pleased to enjoy the quality of their Eaton
accents and that although they were the chiefs of Highland clans they could not
even say hello in our own language.
>Michael Wade
DOBSCAN
The Clearences Link # 1 Highland Clearances # 2 Highland Clearances # 3
Highland Clearances
I tried to get these in the click and go format but can not get them generally.
If you write the EXILE at gete...@aol.com they will send you the touch and
read sites.
Please express that you want clearances sites.
Dave
DOBSCAN
In article <9805181...@boehme.demon.co.uk>, dka...@boehme.demon.co.uk
(Richard Kaulfuss) writes:
>
>> When did the major forests of Scotland disappear? 14th c? 15th c? or
>> later?
>>
> The process has been ongoing since the Bronze Age. I think it was more
> of a gradual thinning out, rather than wholesale felling.
>
>--
> Dick
Also the change in temperature, and the sheep. Cattle put back to the land
sheep take from the land.
Dave
Christopher Bruce
Micheil Rob Mac Phŕdruig wrote:
>
> as crop rotation was abandoned in order to feed all the mouths.
Now William Cobbet, of whom it might be said, went to great lengths to
point out that the potato was an extremely poor substitute for the
normal diet of bread, cheese (and very occasional meat), plus of course
the ale and beer, which at that time was very well able to sustain a man
labouring in the fields for 12 hours or more.
The potato was a quick money crop and replaced many grain orientated
crops for that quick cash due to its popularity.
Scotland still produces excellent seed potatoes due to its particular
climate but this supposed global warming will put paid to that in a few
years time as the winter temperatures climb above that required to
produce a disease free tattie.
We'll be into bananas by then I suppose :-)
Chris
--
_/_/ mailto:br...@ks.sel.alcatel.de
_/ mailto:Christop...@compuserve.com
_/ The most wasted of all my days,
_/_/ is that upon which, I have not laughed!
Christopher Bruce
Michael Wade wrote:
>
> In article <355f344f...@news.whidbey.com>, =?iso-8859-1?q?Micheil_
> Rob_Mac_Ph=E0druig?= <mik...@whidbey.com> writes
>
> MW:
> >
> >>complex process.
> >>
> >>Of course there were savage evictions of many, many people. But others,
> >>thousands of people, left the land of their own accord, over a very long
> >>period of time.
>
> >
> >Why do I get the feeling that you see this as ungrateful people
> >rejecting a favourable situation?
> >
>
>
>
> This is true of many thousands of people. But, as well, many thousands
> of others *chose* to go, and the process of emigration from Scotland
> went on over centuries.
>
> Your evidence is of a very significant and moving story which is, as you
> say, quite properly part of the folk memory.
>
> There are however significant factors involved in other emgirations, as
> well as the 'savage clearances' of which you speak. Population
> pressure, for example, is a simple factor which you noted earlier.
> Many, many people actively chose to leave Scotland, and some who left
> did so despite the best efforts of others to keep them here.
I saw some time ago the mention of the book "The Fatal Shore"!
This went into much detail about yet another pressure that was actively
created by the governments of the day to get labour, cheap or otherwise,
out to the colonies.
The law often turned to shipping minor criminals to these colonies and
even some murderers were given the choice of death or the colonies and
it tells its own story when we know of some that refused even that,
preferring to hang!
There were enormous pressures to make the common man and woman give
consideration to emigration.
That others, with money, were encouraged to buy land in these far off
places or were even given it, provided they use the prison colony's
labour to grow food for the British navy.
Burns may well have had this in mind before his aborted trip to the West
Indies.
Actively choosing to leave Scotland, (or England, Ireland and Wales),
was more often than not, an absolute last chance for survival and a
better tomorrow. Thousands and thousands were sent on prison ships. This
was a very tough time for the ordinary man.
I think it unreasonable to refer to this as "leaving of their own
accord!"
> >And the families who went
> >ensured that their children never forgot why they had to go. They have
> >much in common with peoples like the Nez Perce, the Cherokee and the
> >Sioux who have their own "Trail of Tears" histories which still
> >influence their thinking.
>
> But paradoxically, surely, Scots and other emigrants effectively cleared
> native Americans from their lands? Or Aborigines, or Maoris. These
> indigenous peoples, arguably, have been hidden from view (indeed they
> still are), rather as the Highlanders were at the time of the
> catastrophe of which you speak.
Desparate that these tormented people had to kill and torment others to
survive, it has ever been so!
This long folk memory that certain peoples share is interesting. The
Irish most definitely have it as do the Scots, the 'one time'
Yugoslavians'!
The ability to keep a feud going for a few hundred years seems to go
hand in hand with this strong clan/folk memory and the deep emotional
link to ones homeland.
> >BTW, re. your friend's CD about clearances, yes, please post details
> >when you have them.
That goes for me too and I guess many others, so I think you had better
publicise it here Michael.
Regards
Michael Wade
In article <35615AC7...@lts.sel.alcatel.de>, Christopher Bruce
<br...@lts.sel.alcatel.de> writes
>
>Actively choosing to leave Scotland, (or England, Ireland and Wales),
>was more often than not, an absolute last chance for survival and a
>better tomorrow. Thousands and thousands were sent on prison ships. This
>was a very tough time for the ordinary man.
>
>I think it unreasonable to refer to this as "leaving of their own
>accord!"
I think you have a point, but we don't always have the time to chose the
best form of words, do we?
But - some who chose go abroad did go 'of their own accord' - officials
in the Indian Civil Service, merchants trading with the East. What were
the sons of the Glasgow middle classes to do otherwise?
>> >BTW, re. your friend's CD about clearances, yes, please post details
>> >when you have them.
>
>That goes for me too and I guess many others, so I think you had better
>publicise it here Michael.
>
We've talking end of '98 folks.
--
Michael Wade
Micheil Rob Mac Phàdruig
>In article <35615AC7...@lts.sel.alcatel.de>, Christopher Bruce
><br...@lts.sel.alcatel.de> writes
>>
>>Actively choosing to leave Scotland, (or England, Ireland and Wales),
>>was more often than not, an absolute last chance for survival and a
>>better tomorrow. Thousands and thousands were sent on prison ships. This
>>was a very tough time for the ordinary man.
>But - some who chose go abroad did go 'of their own accord' - officials
>in the Indian Civil Service, merchants trading with the East. What were
>the sons of the Glasgow middle classes to do otherwise?
>
A different nation. We were talking about the Highlanders who were as
different as Greeks to Germans.