Q-Gaelic vs. P-Welsh.
Micheil
(I found a dictionary page of Welsh "P" words, so I picked out some
with Gaelic "C" equivalents.
ENGLISH WELSH SCOTS GAELIC
what pa cia
when pan cuin
kettle pair coire
cough peswch casad
easter pasg caisg
four pedwar ceithir
head pen ceann (Manx "kin")
high chief penadur ceannaird
children plantos clann
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
Amlyn
5 pump cuig
gerald.copp
son mab/map mac
which, on the one hand, gives all those Mac-what-have-yous and McDonald's,
etc. and, on the other, gives Parry (ap Harry), Powell (ap Howell), Pugh (ap
Hugh|) etc., or with names with an initial vowel, Bevan (ab Evan), Bowen (ab
Owen) etc.
Micheil <mic...@arainnmhor.com> wrote in message
news:3a98a9d5.26506844@news...
Colin Jones
rule.
Here are some examples
ENGLISH WELSH IRISH
true gwir fíor
wine gwin fíon
man gw^r fear
hay gwair féar
seaweed gwymon feamainn
seagull gwylan faoileán
weak gwan fann
squeeze gwasgu fáscadh
miracle gwyrth feart
festival gw^yl féile
I'm sure there must be a lot more.
"gerald.copp" <geral...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:PNim6.27506$5n4.5...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Mike MacKinnon
"Colin Jones" <colin...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:97h3ns$951$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
> Just as interesting, but hardly ever mentioned, is the GW-Welsh vs.
F-Gaelic
> rule.
>
> Here are some examples
>
> ENGLISH WELSH IRISH
> true gwir fíor
> wine gwin fíon
Welsh for woman? In Irish it's 'mna'. (pronounced moonnaa)
> hay gwair féar
> seaweed gwymon feamainn
> seagull gwylan faoileán
> weak gwan fann
> squeeze gwasgu fáscadh
> miracle gwyrth feart
>
Mike
> > > - mìcheil
> > >
> > > - innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thìr nan Òg...
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Dave Thomas
<colin...@btinternet.com> writes
>Just as interesting, but hardly ever mentioned, is the GW-Welsh vs. F-Gaelic
>rule.
>
>Here are some examples
>
>ENGLISH WELSH IRISH
>true gwir fíor
>wine gwin fíon
>man gw^r fear
>hay gwair féar
>seaweed gwymon feamainn
>seagull gwylan faoileán
>weak gwan fann
>squeeze gwasgu fáscadh
>miracle gwyrth feart
>festival gw^yl féile
>
>I'm sure there must be a lot more.
Hmm! Interesting - here are a few more
Root gwreidd freumh
Feast gwledd fleadh
and one that shows both changes;
Wet gwlyb fliuch
dave
--
Dave Thomas
Colin Jones
English.
Colin/Cailean
"Mike MacKinnon" <mmack...@pgpower.com> wrote in message
news:r34n6.4353$PF4....@news.iol.ie...
> > > > - měcheil
> > > >
> > > > - innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Colin Jones
The other phenomenon which links G in Welsh with F in Irish is how the sound
disappears when mutated - the G disappears in Welsh and FH is silent in
Irish.
Colin/Cailean
"Dave Thomas" <da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:30y8$LAk2O...@qantam.demon.co.uk...
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
plural and genitive singular of Bean. The way it developed is that the form
Bean became a form similar to bná in the genitive singular and the plural.
The B was then changed into M because of the 'n'. Out of interest Bean and
Bun are related to the English word Queen, just as Cow is related to the
Irish Bó and the Welsh Buwch.
Another interesting thing about all this is how certain words have certain
concepts connected to them. Initial Ll- often indicates something bad - not
always though because a number of different sounds in Celtic fell together
and are represented by LL in Welsh, such as initial L- and initial SL- . In
English you can still see this with words beginning with an initial Sl-
having a negative or bad meaning, such as Slap, Slip, Slay, Slow - the only
native 'good' word that I can think of in English that begins with Sl- is
Slim and if we were to go back to a time when food was sparse, slim would
probably mean death during the next famine, hence the Sl- sound.
Irish has off course kept the initial Sl-.
Another aside is that the contrast between Ap and Ab exists in Irish as
well - although no longer recognised by the standard literary language. The
forms in Irish are Mac and Mag, whence the Mag in my surname which a lot of
people change into Mac when they write it in deference to the modern
literary norm.
"Colin Jones" <colin...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:97jg36$a2e$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
Micheil
<mmack...@pgpower.com> wrote:
>
>"Colin Jones" <colin...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:97h3ns$951$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
>> Just as interesting, but hardly ever mentioned, is the GW-Welsh vs.
>F-Gaelic
>> rule.
>>
>> Here are some examples
>>
>> ENGLISH WELSH IRISH
>> true gwir fíor
>> wine gwin fíon
>> man gw^r fear fír (what's
>Welsh for woman? In Irish it's 'mna'. (pronounced moonnaa)
>> hay gwair féar
>> seaweed gwymon feamainn
>> seagull gwylan faoileán
>> weak gwan fann
>> squeeze gwasgu fáscadh
>> miracle gwyrth feart
>> festival gw^yl féile Feís
>>
I never knew about that. I know lots of shifts for European languages
- b-v in Spanish dialects (Cordoba/Cordova, g-w in
French/Norman-French (garanti/warranty), d-th &b-f in German/English
(dieb/thief) but this is an unexpected treat. Thank you!
>
>> I'm sure there must be a lot more.
>>
>> "gerald.copp" <geral...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:PNim6.27506$5n4.5...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>> > Surely you're missing the most obvious and ubiquitous:
>> >
>> > son mab/map mac
>> >
>> > which, on the one hand, gives all those Mac-what-have-yous and
>McDonald's,
>> > etc. and, on the other, gives Parry (ap Harry), Powell (ap Howell), Pugh
>> (ap
>> > Hugh|) etc., or with names with an initial vowel, Bevan (ab Evan), Bowen
>> (ab
>> > Owen) etc.
I knew about map, but never realized about mab. You've given me a
whole new area to explore. Bevan and Bowen - of course! Thank you.
Micheil
It still goes on - look at the Cockney shift that has appeared within
one generation, where vv is substituted for th as in muvver, bovver.
Dave Thomas
writes
tuth, saucepan is sospan and hear ear year and here always seem to come
out of my mouth with the same yur sound - I have been trying to tune
into some of the Welsh diphthongs, which have lost a lot of their
richness in South Wales and many seem to come out as aye sounds. The
diphthong eu produces a distinct sound in North Wales, (where the u is
something like the French eu) there eu produces a sound that is a
*phonetic combination* of the two letters.
But ain't languages fascinating - and isn't it funny how many of us get
a kick out of discovering something like the above, gw / f link!!
--
Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas
<colin...@btinternet.com> writes
>Even more interesting.....
>
>The other phenomenon which links G in Welsh with F in Irish is how the sound
>disappears when mutated - the G disappears in Welsh and FH is silent in
>Irish.
>
>Colin/Cailean
I think that many gw words in Welsh are mutations of Latin and other
adoptions - where the g has been put in to match the expected Welsh
mutation - or rather the *w* words have been treated as though they were
already mutated!!!
eg: Gwenerol=venereal, gwers=verse, gwerth=worth, gwiber=viper,
gwin=wine, gwellt=velt,veldt etc, gwyllt=wild and commonly in names like
Gwilym, Gwatkin, Gwalter.
I assume that Gwr = man which seems cognate with Gaelic Fear, have a
common link in Latin Vir? So Welsh would have made it something like
gwir and Gaelic retained an earlier IE diphthong??
dave
--
Dave Thomas
Micheil
<colin...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>The Welsh equivalent of 'mná' would be 'menyw', pronounced like 'menu' in
>English.
>
>Colin/Cailean
Interestingly, in Scots Gaelic the word for woman is bean (say, ben).
Mna (m'nah) is the genitive case. Very irregular declension.
It's not the custom in Gaelic to name a woman separately; she is Bean
Sheumais - Ben Hamish - Shaymas'/James' wife, but then men are often
identified by their mother's name as in Aonghas Peigi - Peggy's Angus.
Micheil
<mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Mná is related to the Welsh word Bun - an old word meaning woman. Mná is the
>plural and genitive singular of Bean. The way it developed is that the form
>Bean became a form similar to bná in the genitive singular and the plural.
>The B was then changed into M because of the 'n'. Out of interest Bean and
>Bun are related to the English word Queen, just as Cow is related to the
>Irish Bó and the Welsh Buwch.
So are you suggesting a C - B shift from English to Celtic languages?
>Another interesting thing about all this is how certain words have certain
>concepts connected to them. Initial Ll- often indicates something bad - not
>always though because a number of different sounds in Celtic fell together
>and are represented by LL in Welsh, such as initial L- and initial SL- . In
>English you can still see this with words beginning with an initial Sl-
>having a negative or bad meaning, such as Slap, Slip, Slay, Slow - the only
>native 'good' word that I can think of in English that begins with Sl- is
>Slim and if we were to go back to a time when food was sparse, slim would
>probably mean death during the next famine, hence the Sl- sound.
>
>Irish has off course kept the initial Sl-.
The paragraph above and the one below hint at something I tried to
develop as a theory in my 20s, to wit the three-consonant cluster so
common to Arabic, like ktb (to do with books) and slm (to do with
peace).
S(a)l(a)m (peace); (Mu)sl(i)m (person practising Islam); (I)sl(a)m
(resignation/acceptance = peace) etc.
I decided there were traces of a two-consonant cluster in English,
like your "sl" and my "gr" for plants - grow, grass, green, etc. I was
shot down in flames, but I still like it!
The paragraph below sounds like a consonantal change for the sake of
euphony. Common in Arabic with "the". Al abd (the slave, as in
Abdullah - slave of God); Esh shems (the sun); Ar rahman ar rahim (the
compassionate, the merciful, part of a religious affirmation.
Abraham/Ibrahim means Merciful father, a reference to Abraham not
sacrificing his son.)
Micheil
<da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>- mìcheil
>>
>>- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thìr nan Òg...
>>
>As a prime candidate for the murder of English vowels - Tooth is always
>tuth, saucepan is sospan and hear ear year and here always seem to come
>out of my mouth with the same yur sound - I have been trying to tune
>into some of the Welsh diphthongs, which have lost a lot of their
>richness in South Wales and many seem to come out as aye sounds. The
>diphthong eu produces a distinct sound in North Wales, (where the u is
>something like the French eu) there eu produces a sound that is a
>*phonetic combination* of the two letters.
We have the same sound in Scots Gaelic. It's written "ao" as in "gaol"
(love) and is pronounced like the French "gueule" (animal's maw).
>
>But ain't languages fascinating - and isn't it funny how many of us get
>a kick out of discovering something like the above, gw / f link!!
I love it! Like finding gold.
>--
>Dave Thomas
- mìcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thìr nan Òg...
Micheil
It's interesting that L:atin has vir and homo for man. Gaelic also has
two words, fear and duine. Fear is a general word for a man, like a
guy or a bloke - a person, the literary English "one" as in "one must"
It's used of things as well, as in the Maclean warcry; "Fear (one)
eil' airson Eachuinn - another one (a sword blow) for Hector.
Duine is a man is as opposed to a woman or an animal.
It's interesting that Gaelic sees some people as being like furniture
in certain situations, using the general male object term Fear, rather
the man word Duine. For example, Fear a' bhata (Ferra VA tah) -
Boatman, really, the boat bloke; and Fear an taighe, (Ferran TIE yeh)
man of the house (the host), really, the house fellow, the house guy.
John Sullivan
<mic...@arainnmhor.com>
>L:atin has vir and homo for man.
Surely "vir" is "man" as opposed to woman, and "homo" is "mankind"?
--
John Sullivan Remove the dots in yDdraigGoch for my real address.
-------------
Virtuoso: someone who plays pieces of music of little artistic merit
faster and louder than anyone else.
Taid Deri
"Dave Thomas" wrote > >>In article <97h3ns$951$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>,
Colin Jones writes
> >>>Just as interesting, but hardly ever mentioned, is the GW-Welsh vs.
F-Gaelic
> >>>rule.
> >one generation, where vv is substituted for th as in muvver, bovver.
> >
> >- měcheil
>
> a kick out of discovering something like the above, gw / f link!!
Another snippet. In more recent times borrowings into Welsh of words
beginning with w have tended to use the letter ch as the mutator rather than
g so that 'chwerthchweil' is now an everyday expression here. I suspect,
having heard Robert Croft talking about 'warae'-ing cricket, where we would
'chwarae' it, that this usage might be confined to the North, but,
nevertheless, I wonder if any of our linguists can explain the shift.
Hwyl
Taid Deri
"Micheil" wrote >
> It's not the custom in Gaelic to name a woman separately; she is Bean
> Sheumais - Ben Hamish - Shaymas'/James' wife, but then men are often
> identified by their mother's name as in Aonghas Peigi - Peggy's Angus.
A not dissimilar system here, in an area where Tom Jones is not the
uncommonest of names, was that of identifying a person by their spouse, viz
Tom husband of Bethan. In an extreme case, some years ago, when there
was also a surfeit of Bethans, we had a lady identified as Bethan wife of
Tom husband of Bethan. It does not sound so absurd in Welsh:
Bethan wraig Twm gwr Bethan.
It happens in other languages, too. I always liked the Arabic custom of
calling a proud father , say, Abu Hamid, 'Father of Hamid'. So much so
that I adopted the method in arriving at my newsgroup 'ffugenw'. Deri is
the eldest son of my eldest son.
Hwyl
Taid Deri
"Micheil" wrote > >
> It's interesting that L:atin has vir and homo for man. Gaelic also has
> two words, fear and duine. Fear is a general word for a man, like a
> guy or a bloke - a person, the literary English "one" as in "one must"
> It's used of things as well, as in the Maclean warcry; "Fear (one)
> eil' airson Eachuinn - another one (a sword blow) for Hector.
Interestinger and interestinger. Two words in Welsh as well - gwr and dyn,
although in our case dyn is the word that could translate as the English
'one'.
Hwyl
gerald.copp
Micheil wrote:
> Interestingly, in Scots Gaelic the word for woman is bean (say, ben).
Does that explain the use of 'hen' in place of say 'dear' or 'love' when a
male addresses his wife, for instance. "Would you like a cup of tea, hen" is
an example of how a friend living in Edinburgh uses the word.
John Sullivan
sgrifenodd gerald.copp <geral...@ntlworld.com>
Isn't that actually "hin", an abbreviation of "hinnie", a she-ass, used
affectionately by Tynesiders:
Geordie English
Why-aye, hinnie Yes, dear
Micheil
I have an Arab son (don't ask) and in his social circle I am known as
Abu Jamil - Jamil's Father.
In China you would be an "A Yeh" a paternal side grandfather. Your
wife would be an "A Mah".
I'm an "A Gung" - a maternal side grandfather and my wife was an "A
Po".
Even quite distant Chinese relationships are defined by separate names
and can become exceedingly complicated to keep track of.
For example, "kai dai", an insulting term for someone who is a cousin
by way of the father's concubine, rather than the official wife!
Resist the temptation to use it next time you drop by your local
Chinese take away, unless you don't mind going away hungry...
Because Chinese civilization is so ancient, it has long been decided
that the extended family is the logical natural unit.
As an example of how deeply held this belief is, the stepmother of a
friend of mine decided she couldn't bear living with her husband's
children after he died and moved into a Chinese old folk's home.
This is in itself a controversial matter for Chinese families, who
regard such things as bringing shame and disgrace on the families who
don't look after their old folk but warehouse them in such places.
However, in view of the old lady's intransigence, there was nothing
the family could do to persuade her to stay.
She went to a Wong Family Tong (society) home. She has a very
attractive and well-equipped suite for which she pays a nominal rent
and has in-house help if needed, especially in the event of medical
emergencies.
To qualify, all she had to do was prove she was born to a family
called Wong. It is estimated that the name Wong and its North Chinese
variant, Wang, is carried by 400 million people.
The proof was to have two friends vouch for her family name, and this
leads to another interesting Chinese custom.
In Chinese society, personal honour is a very important matter, which
is one of the many reasons I like doing business with Chinese people,
who mostly tend to adhere to standards of honesty pretty much
undreamed of in modern western commercial society.
So in Hong Kong, if you wanted a substantial loan from a bank, all you
had to do was produce two or three current users of the bank to vouch
for your good character. This did not involve them becoming a surety
for the loan or underwriting it in any way; their own good characters
were the security.
Thus, it was possible for a penniless man to borrow a million dollars
if he had friends to vouch for him who were already banking at the
establishment he approached.
This system was rarely abused, but when the Chinese started moving
into Vancouver in force just before Hong Kong reverted to China, they
were amazed to discover that in the west a man's word is not always
his bond. However, being a pragmatic lot, they would trot into the
nearest bank, deposit a couple of million dollars, borrow half of it
back and pay it back it the next day, thereby giving themselves Triple
A credit records as good payers.
My wife did the same thing for us (the Canadian banks won't accept
that any more now, though!) and we enjoyed a range of services and
favours unknown to the average bank customer. I still do.
The US banks however are still open to such obvious manipulation, and
my standing with my American bank is that of most favoured customer.
This includes paying nothing for any transaction, like monthly
statements, cashing cheques, wiring money, etc.
It all goes back to my grandfather's sage remark - "Never fight the
system - use it."
So I do. Whenever I deal with Chinese people, I always ensure that
whatever I do conforms with their personal beliefs. In particular, if
I can find out what their personal lucky numbers are, you may be sure
that any document I produce for their approval contains that lucky
number somewhere, usually in the price under discussion. When they see
it, they often smile quietly and usually sign without demur.
Usually - but one once started laughing and said the equivalent of
"What a manipulative sod! No wonder you Scots think you own Hong
Kong!"
What can I say? It's hereditary - just check the genome and you can
see the tartan gene right in there - look for the part that controls
the brain's ability to feel pleasure...
I got nobbled once though. A man sent me a very low-priced offer, so I
countered with a very high-priced one, and told the intermediary to
make sure he saw it was composed of his lucky numbers.
The buyer, somewhat enraged, riposted by adjusting the same numbers to
lower his original offer by at least a third and sent it back with a
note saying, "This is the actual order of my lucky numbers."
To my anguished realization, there was no combination in between that
would be to my benefit, so I finally sent back a reasonable counter
offer and, after some substantial grumbling and negotiating - I
suspect, solely for the purpose of punishing me - it was accepted.
Later, I met his very charming granddaughter and told her this story -
she was very modern-minded, with a PhD and an amused contempt for the
old superstitions. She listened to my story, then smiled and said,
"Now you've learned something else about the Chinese - when we're
buying, the ONLY lucky number is zero!"
As a Scot, I was able to relate to that thought with no difficulty...
The words in Chinese for buy and sell are the same. The only
difference is the tone used to say them. If you say "My, my!" in the
usual way, you are also saying the Cantonese words for "Buy, Sell" -
the first "My" high-pitched, the second "My" low-pitched.
I got confused once and in the middle of buying something, I
accidently said, "I was quite looking forward to selling this!",
meaning of course to say "I was quite looking forward to buying this"
and imply that the pleasure and therefore the likelihood of me buying
were diminishing because the seller was refusing to lower his price.
Everything came to an instant standstill and the seller said, all
sharp-eyed and suspicious - and VERY tellingly, I thought! - "You mean
there's still some profit left in this?"
Needless to say, the price rose like a rocket and I left, disgusted
with myself at losing control of my tongue!
The best negotiator I ever knew was my wife. Other people used to hire
her to close deals for them - no kidding! She had all the mercy of
Gengis Khan's personal torturer when it came to haggling over a buck.
The weirdest was my grandfather. If he didn't like the direction the
price was taking, he'd simply stop and start at the bottom (or top)
again, amid agonized cries of, "That's not fair!"!
The worst ever was an Arab couple, who started weeping and crying. The
moment the price fell to the level they were after, the tears stopped
like magic. I was never able to sink that low - well, not without
inhaling onion juice...
Micheil
I wouldn't think so - Gaelic and Lowland culture are totally
different; as different as Mexican and American.
Micheil
I hear this listening to today's Gaelic, where the DH and GH
sounds are becoming CH sounds. If you've ever ever heard a Dutchman
say "g" as in "daag" (day), you'll know the older sound.
It's like "Och!" said with a hard "ch". A "g" sound instead of the
softer "c" sound.
Like saying "Ugh!" with an och-like "gh" instead of a "g".
Micheil
I imagine these distinctions are common to all Celtic languages. Like
lenition, where Cymru becomes Gymru, which is common to all.
The best example in Gaelic is Seumas (SHAYmus) which means James.
When you talk to Seumas, you call him Sheumais - pronounced HAYmish
and usually written Hamish in English.
Most people don't know that Shaymus and Hamish are the same name.
Gaelic adjectives lenite after feminine nouns, and can be subtle.
In Gaelic and more and more in Irish, lenition is denoted by adding an
"h" after the lenited consonant. The Irish used to put a dot over the
lenited consonant.
This cleverly allows you to see what the original word was - unlike
the Brythonic languages! <smirk>
Gaelic: Tha Màiri bhàn mòr. (ha MAH-ree vahn more)
Literally: Is Mary beautiful tall.
Freely: Beautiful Mary is tall.
Gaelic: Tha Màiri mhòr bàn. (ha MAH-ree vore bahn)
Literally: Is Mary tall beautiful.
Freely: Tall Mary is beautiful.
Gaelic: Tha Màiri mòr bàn. (ha MAH-ree mor bahn)
Literally: Is Mary tall beautiful.
Freely: Mary is tall (and) beautiful.
Gaelic: Tha Màiri mhòr bhàn. (ha MAH-ree vore vahn)
Literally: Is Mary tall beautiful.
Freely: It's tall beautiful Mary!
Unlike the English, Gaelic speakers tend to run their words together
so they become one long sound. This, combined with the constant
lenition, which generally softens or silences the lenited consonant,
makes it hard to understand unless you are fairly fluent. The only
word m,ost non-Gaels can pick out is "agus" which means "and", and
even then is often shortened to "'us" or "'s".
Thus the remark by a friend that Gaelic sounds like "a hee a haw agus
a hee a haw!" through their noses.
Many sounds are said nasally which doesn't help. In Sutherlandshire,
many people speak with a nasal accent. The general impression for
newcomers is that the people are clearing their throats and groaning
and it only becomes apparent after some time that a conversation is
underway!
(The same friend said that local councils should be obliged to put up
little signs saying, "Beware, Gaelic conversations in progress!")
My children used to mock me mercilessly for saying "sto~n" (STAWN =
stone) and for grunting agreement through my nose. They speak with
perfect clear Canadian accents, except that the wee-est one says
"Thrrrree!" and then corrects herself!
She was in Scotland and England recently and was not partisan about
Scotland in any way. Today she surprised me by saying that she didn't
feel safe in London and thought the people were rude and unfriendly,
whereas in Edinburgh she felt safe and people went out of their way to
be helpful. As she's a slender, pretty honey-blonde with an engaging
grin, I wasn't too surprised, but I was astonished by her remarks
about London, which always seemed a friendly place to me.
"In Edinburgh they thought I was American," she said, "but when I told
them I was Canadian and my Dad was from the Western Isles, they were
downright welcoming! I loved Scotland - I'm going back for sure!"
She will too - she's now the youngest department head at Air Canada
and can get me there and back for under a hundred pounds, so you can
guess how little she has to pay for herself. I worry about my baby and
I'm grateful that you Embra folk looked after her!
- mìcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thìr nan Òg...
Heather Rose Jones
>
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:31:18 -0000, "Muiris Mag Ualghairg"
> <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >Mná is related to the Welsh word Bun - an old word meaning woman. Mná is the
> >plural and genitive singular of Bean. The way it developed is that the form
> >Bean became a form similar to bná in the genitive singular and the plural.
> >The B was then changed into M because of the 'n'. Out of interest Bean and
> >Bun are related to the English word Queen, just as Cow is related to the
> >Irish Bó and the Welsh Buwch.
>
> So are you suggesting a C - B shift from English to Celtic languages?
Goodness, no. Particularly since these aren't examples of lateral
borrowing, but of parallel inheritance from Indo-European. If I recall
correctly, the PIE reconstruction for this particular set of
correspondences is "gw" (which, as you'll note, contains both velar and
labial elements -- the Germanic family jumped in the velar direction on
this sound, and the Celtic family in the labial direction).
--
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*********
Nick-Durie
John Sullivan <jo...@y.ddraig.goch.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:BTjS2MEW...@yddraiggoch.demon.co.uk...
> Yn erthygl <3aa028eb.9509081@news>, sgrifenodd Micheil
> <mic...@arainnmhor.com>
> >L:atin has vir and homo for man.
>
> Surely "vir" is "man" as opposed to woman, and "homo" is "mankind"?
And 'were' is English for man.
Micheil
<mars...@pentredu.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Micheil" wrote, amidst lots of other interesting things:
>
>> The words in Chinese for buy and sell are the same. The only
>> difference is the tone used to say them. If you say "My, my!" in the
>> usual way, you are also saying the Cantonese words for "Buy, Sell" -
>> the first "My" high-pitched, the second "My" low-pitched.
>>
>> I got confused once and in the middle of buying something, I
>> accidently said, "I was quite looking forward to selling this!",
>> meaning of course to say "I was quite looking forward to buying this"
>> and imply that the pleasure and therefore the likelihood of me buying
>> were diminishing because the seller was refusing to lower his price.
>>
>> Everything came to an instant standstill and the seller said, all
>> sharp-eyed and suspicious - and VERY tellingly, I thought! - "You mean
>> there's still some profit left in this?"
>
>That brought back memories. It's a long time since I made an eejit of
>myself over mai/mai and even then it only raised a smile because there was
>never any way that I was going to wrap my tongue around the eight tones of
>Cantonese well enough to haggle in that language. I once had a bit of a
>dabble at Mandarin whilst living in Taiwan but even that was a bit of a
>waste of time because Taiwanese folk of my age still spoke Japanese as a
>second language and tended to resent the mainland Mandarin speakers,
>although they would never dare to say so.
>
>Tsai chien
Hey ya! Ni tong Putonghua - hao! Wo tong siu siu.
Wow! You speak Mandarin - good! I speak a little.
Ngoh sik gong Kwan-tung-wa - jung yi hou do!
I know how to speak Cantonese - I like it it a lot!
Ni syu, go go yan gong Kwan-tung-wa. Hou do Chung-gwok po tau.
Here, everyone speaks Cantonese. Many Chinese stores.
The district I live in is about 60% Chinese. Low crime rate, quiet
streets at night. Friendly neighbours, low prices.
You might like the old Chinese name for Vancouver - Ham Soei Fao -
Salt Water City. The newcomers call it Wan = Van(couver). The old
timers call the US, Gum Shan - Golden Mountain; the newcomers call it
Mei-gwok = America Country. Canada is Ga-nah-daiih in Cantonese and
Ja-na-ta in Mandarin. Scotland is Soo-Gay-Lan, but I don't know a
Chinese name for Wales...
How about Ga-muih-leih (Cymru) meaning "Increase coal percentage."?
That seems appropriate for all you old timer Ystad Rhondda colliers!
(God knows, I do my best!)
Joi gin! (gin like grin with no "r")
Mike MacKinnon
More likely to be from the Danish 'hun' for she or her. Possessive is
'hendes' (pro. hennes) IIRC.
Mike
dave
Micheil <mic...@arainnmhor.com> wrote in article
<3aa3511b.5089765@news>...
'Wales' in Mandarin is 'wei er si' - I don't know the characters, so I
can't tell you what it means. Gong gwong dong wa ngo m jido (I don't know
what it is in Cantonese).
By the way, there's debate amongst some Cornish speakers at the moment
about what to say for 'Japanese' - Japonek or Nihonek. What do the Welsh
use?
Gans gorhemmynnadow an gwella, Dave
Dave Thomas
redu.freeserve.co.uk> writes
Is this a modern change though Deri? If so what happened to words like
Chwech=six?? Is it possible that chw was used for the assumed non-
mutated (KW)=(Qu) words? Though some of the ch words seem to be
adoptions of (WH) sounds ie, Chwyl=wheel, chwip=whip, chwiban=whistle,
chwisgi=whisky??
South Wales does seem to dispense with the use of assumed mutations far
more readily than North and *ware teg* was always the cry I remember!!
But where does *chwarae* itself come from? Is it cognate with Latin
Vario!! in the sense that it implies a changed role and like other
languages, chwarae can mean either to act or play a sport?? Does this
relate to the Gaelic Cluich, or is that more akin to playing a game as
in Latin Ludo??
Hwyl
dave
--
Dave Thomas
Taid Deri
"Micheil" wrote
>
> Hey ya! Ni tong Putonghua - hao! Wo tong siu siu.
> Wow! You speak Mandarin - good! I speak a little.
Not so. At best I picked up a few useful words and phrases which helped to
get a better feel for a meeting with a Peking-dialect speaking official
before listening to the interpreter's version, plus a few quite useless
phrases like 'forty four stone lions' which made quite a nice expletive in
the office, much to the amusement of the young ladies there. ( It went
something like 'Ssu shih ssu jju shih shih tzu'). But it has virtually all
gone now, along with most of the snippets of other languages that I picked
up along the way. You have to use them to keep them and I'm afraid that I
never did.
> The district I live in is about 60% Chinese. Low crime rate, quiet
> streets at night. Friendly neighbours, low prices.
I'd heard that Vancouver had invited the Triads in when Hong Kong became
subject to the Chinese Government, but maybe they have reformed, or
something :-)
> , but I don't know a Chinese name for Wales...
It's T'ien-kuo, loosely, Heaven on Earth. '-)
Tzai jin
Taid Deri
"Dave Thomas" wrote
>Taid Deri wrote
> >Another snippet. In more recent times borrowings into Welsh of words
> >beginning with w have tended to use the letter ch as the mutator rather
than
> >g so that 'chwerthchweil' is now an everyday expression here. I
suspect,
> >having heard Robert Croft talking about 'warae'-ing cricket, where we
would
> >'chwarae' it, that this usage might be confined to the North, but,
> >nevertheless, I wonder if any of our linguists can explain the shift.
>
> Is this a modern change though Deri? If so what happened to words like
> Chwech=six?? Is it possible that chw was used for the assumed non-
> mutated (KW)=(Qu) words? Though some of the ch words seem to be
> adoptions of (WH) sounds ie, Chwyl=wheel, chwip=whip, chwiban=whistle,
> chwisgi=whisky??
>
> South Wales does seem to dispense with the use of assumed mutations far
> more readily than North and *ware teg* was always the cry I remember!!
> But where does *chwarae* itself come from? Is it cognate with Latin
> Vario!! in the sense that it implies a changed role and like other
> languages, chwarae can mean either to act or play a sport?? Does this
> relate to the Gaelic Cluich, or is that more akin to playing a game as
> in Latin Ludo??
Recent to me, Dave, means any time since the Romans were here.
The chw was certainly well in use in the 19th C autobiographies I have read
and may, of course, be much earlier. That's why I suggested that one of
the linguists
amongst us could throw a little light on the matter. Let's give them
another chance.
Hwyl
Heather Rose Jones
> "Dave Thomas" wrote
> >Taid Deri wrote
> > >Another snippet. In more recent times borrowings into Welsh of words
> > >beginning with w have tended to use the letter ch as the mutator rather
> than
> > >g so that 'chwerthchweil' is now an everyday expression here. I
> suspect,
> > Is this a modern change though Deri? If so what happened to words like
> > Chwech=six?? Is it possible that chw was used for the assumed non-
> > mutated (KW)=(Qu) words? Though some of the ch words seem to be
> > adoptions of (WH) sounds ie, Chwyl=wheel, chwip=whip, chwiban=whistle,
> > chwisgi=whisky??
> Recent to me, Dave, means any time since the Romans were here.
> The chw was certainly well in use in the 19th C autobiographies I have read
> and may, of course, be much earlier. That's why I suggested that one of
> the linguists
> amongst us could throw a little light on the matter. Let's give them
> another chance.
I suspect it's just a shift in the "translation" of the perceived sound.
Consider it in this context: when you listen to someone speaking a
significantly different dialect of ... oh, let's pick on English just as
an example ... than the one you speak, after a short period your brain
automatically starts "converting" the sounds you hear into the
corresponding ones in your own dialect. In a parallel, but somewhat
different context, if you listen to someone pronouncing sounds or
sound-combinations that don't normally occur in your own language, your
brain will tend to convert them into sounds or sound-combinations that
your language considers "allowable". (This tendency can be counteracted
by training and practice, of course.) Consider, for example, the ways
in which some of the Arabic consonants get pronounced by English speakers.
Welsh doesn't "normally" allow plain initial "w" in words. (The rare
exceptions, e.g., "wedi", are usually cases where a lenited form has
fossilized as a lexical item.) So someone whose primary language is
Welsh will tend to "hear" initial "w" as some related sound that Welsh
_does_ allow. One obvious candidate is a lenited initial "gw-". When
the input-sound is an aspirated "w" (as in Enlgish "wh-" words), another
obvious candidate is Welsh initial "chw-".
When you look at words that Welsh borrowed from English during the
medieval period, it may also make sense to consider the correspondence
of English initial "g-" with Norman French initial "gu-" in many
contexts. At that time, there may have been a very strong context for
considering the difference between initial "w-" and initial "gw-" to be
more like one of accent than of contrasting sounds.
The shift to correlating English initial "w-" with Welsh initial "chw-"
may be influenced by any number of factors, and I'd hate to speculate
without doing a bit more research. (For that matter, I'd want to do a
little more research to see if and how the aspirated English initial "w"
was borrowed into Welsh in the medieval period.)
Dave Thomas
<hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> writes
between the Welsh gw words and IE though? There seems to be a
relationship between most gw words and Latin as in say;
gwacau=empty=vacuo
gwall=mistake=fall...
gwain=sheath=ven..(vein)
gwala=plenty=val..(very much)
gwast..=waste=vast...
gweddwi=widow=vidua
gwib..=roam=vag(virg..vib...)
gwir=truth=ver..
gwisgo=robe=ves..
gwr=man=vir..
gwrach=hag=virago
But as many do not seem to be direct borrowings from Latin, would I be
right in thinking that there may be a common IE link rather than a Latin
import in many cases?
dave
--
Dave Thomas
David Chan
> Ngoh sik gong Kwan-tung-wa - jung yi hou do!
> I know how to speak Cantonese - I like it it a lot!
>
> Ni syu, go go yan gong Kwan-tung-wa. Hou do Chung-gwok po tau.
> Here, everyone speaks Cantonese. Many Chinese stores.
Heehee thanks for the translations - I was misreading the romanised
versions and I wondered why you were eating Cantonese :-)
> How about Ga-muih-leih (Cymru) meaning "Increase coal percentage."?
Nice :-)
David
--
"If all things are one, what room is there for speech? If [speech] does
exist, we have two; and two and one, three; from which point onwards, even
the best mathematicians will fail to reach the ultimate." --- Zhuang Zi
David Chan
> By the way, there's debate amongst some Cornish speakers at the moment
> about what to say for 'Japanese' - Japonek or Nihonek. What do the Welsh
> use?
My Collins Spwriel dictionary says "Siapaneg" for the language and
"Siapaneaidd" otherwise. It does give both "Siapa/n" and "Nihon" for the
country though. BBC Newyddion seems to use "Siapan" more often:
http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/scripts/
query.idq?TemplateName=query&CiRestriction=Siapan
(all one line)
HTH,
--
David
Heather Rose Jones
> Thanks very much Heather, very interesting. Do you see a direct link
> between the Welsh gw words and IE though? There seems to be a
> relationship between most gw words and Latin as in say;
If I were composing this at home (rather than in a coffee-house), I'd
just consult the GPC for origins on these. But what I suspect is that
you've got the sound-correspondence being produced a combination of
parallel inheritance from Proto-Indo-European, borrowing by Welsh from
Latin, borrowing by Welsh from English where the English may be a Latin
or French borrowing, and possibly some other routes as well. Just for
fun, here's my off-the-top-of-my-head suspicions, and I'll check the
"real story" when I get home.
> gwacau=empty=vacuo
most likely a borrowing from Latin
> gwall=mistake=fall...
I have this recollection that "gwall" in the "mistake" sense is an
extension from some more concrete meaning, perhaps "gap". I don't think
there's any connection between these two at all -- the phonetics don't
correspond well.
> gwain=sheath=ven..(vein)
Actually I suspectc this is from Latin "vagina" (in it's original
meaning of "sheath") -- remember that an intervocalic "g" in something
borrowed into Brittonic is going to lenite away to nothing on the way to Welsh.
> gwala=plenty=val..(very much)
I'm not sure what word you're trying to make a correspondence with here.
> gwast..=waste=vast...
I'll guess this one is a Welsh borrowing either of the English word
(which I _think_ is a borrowing from French) or a Welsh borrowing
directly from Latin.
> gweddwi=widow=vidua
Welsh borrowing from Latin
> gwib..=roam=vag(virg..vib...)
Again, I don't know what word you're trying to correspond this with.
> gwir=truth=ver..
This one I believe is simply a parallel inheritance from PIE.
> gwisgo=robe=ves..
Unlikely, since the Latin root is actually "vest-" -- you can't just
drop the "t" because it's inconvenient.
> gwr=man=vir..
Parallel inheritance from PIE.
> gwrach=hag=virago
The phonetics just don't look right for this correspondence.
> But as many do not seem to be direct borrowings from Latin, would I be
> right in thinking that there may be a common IE link rather than a Latin
> import in many cases?
See above.
Heather Rose Jones
to that source.
Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> Dave Thomas wrote:
> > gwacau=empty=vacuo
>
> most likely a borrowing from Latin
correct
> > gwall=mistake=fall...
>
> I have this recollection that "gwall" in the "mistake" sense is an
> extension from some more concrete meaning, perhaps "gap". I don't think
> there's any connection between these two at all -- the phonetics don't
> correspond well.
Shows it as a native word from a root possibly meaning "to deceive" but
this meaning isn't certain.
> > gwain=sheath=ven..(vein)
>
> Actually I suspectc this is from Latin "vagina" (in it's original
> meaning of "sheath") -- remember that an intervocalic "g" in something
> borrowed into Brittonic is going to lenite away to nothing on the way to Welsh.
correct
> > gwala=plenty=val..(very much)
>
> I'm not sure what word you're trying to make a correspondence with here.
from a native root meaning something like "to press, push" (i.e.,
"stuffed full"?)
> > gwast..=waste=vast...
>
> I'll guess this one is a Welsh borrowing either of the English word
> (which I _think_ is a borrowing from French) or a Welsh borrowing
> directly from Latin.
from Middle Enlgish
> > gweddwi=widow=vidua
>
> Welsh borrowing from Latin
turns out to be cognate with the Latin rather than derived from it, a
parallel development from PIE
> > gwib..=roam=vag(virg..vib...)
>
> Again, I don't know what word you're trying to correspond this with.
a native root, but cognate with English "whip"
> > gwir=truth=ver..
>
> This one I believe is simply a parallel inheritance from PIE.
correct
> > gwisgo=robe=ves..
>
> Unlikely, since the Latin root is actually "vest-" -- you can't just
> drop the "t" because it's inconvenient.
a native root, but Latin vest- is derived from a related PIE root
> > gwr=man=vir..
>
> Parallel inheritance from PIE.
correct
> > gwrach=hag=virago
>
> The phonetics just don't look right for this correspondence.
"Gwrach" is from a variant of the same Common Celtic root as "gwraig"
(*urakko vs. *urako), not related to Latin "virago"
Micheil
The Canadian Government unwittingly welcomed numbers of triads from
Hong Kong, as well as most of the big bosses. This came to an end when
the Royal Hong Kong Police contacted them and asked incredulously if
they knew who they were accepting. Uh oh...!
>> , but I don't know a Chinese name for Wales...
>
>It's T'ien-kuo, loosely, Heaven on Earth. '-)
Funny - I thought that had already been taken...
>Tzai jin
(After that crack about Tien-kuo)
Wahn hei hou!
(Good luck!)
Micheil
wrote:
>On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Micheil wrote:
>
>> Ngoh sik gong Kwan-tung-wa - jung yi hou do!
>> I know how to speak Cantonese - I like it it a lot!
>>
>> Ni syu, go go yan gong Kwan-tung-wa. Hou do Chung-gwok po tau.
>> Here, everyone speaks Cantonese. Many Chinese stores.
>
>Heehee thanks for the translations - I was misreading the romanised
>versions and I wondered why you were eating Cantonese :-)
I wasn't bothering to accent them, which is what confused you.
I'm a great fan of the Yale system for Romanizing Cantonese devised by
Prof. Parker Po-Hei Huang, which uses accents for the seven tones and
ignores the rumoured 8th and 9th!
1. A high-range, level tone is represented by a bar over the vowel.
(Can't be reproduced here as far as I know, only in Microsoft Word.)
2. A mid-range, level tone is written like "sik"
3. A low-range, level has an "h" inserted, like "sihk"
4. Rising (sík)
5. Falling (sěk)
6. Inserted "h" for the low-range tones - síhk and sěhk.
There are no rising or falling mid-range tones as far as I'm aware,
only mid-range level tones.
Eat would be sihk (low-range, level)
Know (how to) would be sik with a bar over the "i" (high-range,
level)
Thank God for Mandarin with only four tones!
>> How about Ga-muih-leih (Cymru) meaning "Increase coal percentage."?
>
>Nice :-)
Thank you.
All scraps of praise gratefully accepted!
>
>David
>--
>"If all things are one, what room is there for speech? If [speech] does
>exist, we have two; and two and one, three; from which point onwards, even
>the best mathematicians will fail to reach the ultimate." --- Zhuang Zi
>
Dave Thomas
<hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> writes
>Ok, now that I'm home with my GPC, let's see how well I did, according
>to that source.
>
>Heather Rose Jones wrote:
>> Dave Thomas wrote:
>
>> > gwacau=empty=vacuo
>>
>> most likely a borrowing from Latin
>
>correct
>
>> > gwall=mistake=fall...
>>
>> I have this recollection that "gwall" in the "mistake" sense is an
>> extension from some more concrete meaning, perhaps "gap". I don't think
>> there's any connection between these two at all -- the phonetics don't
>> correspond well.
>
>Shows it as a native word from a root possibly meaning "to deceive" but
>this meaning isn't certain.
>
>> > gwain=sheath=ven..(vein)
>>
>> Actually I suspectc this is from Latin "vagina" (in it's original
>> meaning of "sheath") -- remember that an intervocalic "g" in something
>> borrowed into Brittonic is going to lenite away to nothing on the way to
>Welsh.
>
>correct
>
>> > gwala=plenty=val..(very much)
>>
>> I'm not sure what word you're trying to make a correspondence with here.
I was guessing that the Val element in words like valde = intensely,
very much, and valesco = grow strong, might have a link.
>
>from a native root meaning something like "to press, push" (i.e.,
>"stuffed full"?)
>
>> > gwast..=waste=vast...
>>
>> I'll guess this one is a Welsh borrowing either of the English word
>> (which I _think_ is a borrowing from French) or a Welsh borrowing
>> directly from Latin.
>
>from Middle Enlgish
>
>> > gweddwi=widow=vidua
>>
>> Welsh borrowing from Latin
>
>turns out to be cognate with the Latin rather than derived from it, a
>parallel development from PIE
ISTR that Sanskrit has something like Vi-dhu = woman without!!
>
>> > gwib..=roam=vag(virg..vib...)
>>
>> Again, I don't know what word you're trying to correspond this with.
Guessing at several possibles here including Vibro, and vagor
>
>a native root, but cognate with English "whip"
>
>> > gwir=truth=ver..
>>
>> This one I believe is simply a parallel inheritance from PIE.
>
>correct
>
>> > gwisgo=robe=ves..
>>
>> Unlikely, since the Latin root is actually "vest-" -- you can't just
>> drop the "t" because it's inconvenient.
>
>a native root, but Latin vest- is derived from a related PIE root
>
>> > gwr=man=vir..
>>
>> Parallel inheritance from PIE.
>
>correct
>
>> > gwrach=hag=virago
>>
>> The phonetics just don't look right for this correspondence.
>
>"Gwrach" is from a variant of the same Common Celtic root as "gwraig"
>(*urakko vs. *urako), not related to Latin "virago"
>
I am surprised that there isn't a correspondence here - and interested
that you were able to spot the incorrect phonetics.
I would be very interested in knowing what your etymological source is
Heather - Pardon my ignorance, but what is the GPC (Geriadur ??
Cymraeg)??
So what would be the PIE link to the Welsh *gw*, (K)v???
Micheil
I've added the Scots Gaelic equivalents to the end of each line.
>
>gwacau=empty=vacuo = falamh
>gwall=mistake=fall... = mearachd
>gwain=sheath=ven..(vein) = cuisle (the Irish Acushla = my vein = my beloved comes from this)
>gwala=plenty=val..(very much) = pailteas
>gwast..=waste=vast... = fasach (desert)
>gweddwi=widow=vidua = banntrach
>gwib..=roam=vag(virg..vib...) = farsanach (given to roaming)
>gwir=truth=ver.. = firinn
>gwisgo=robe=ves.. = falluinn
>gwr=man=vir.. = fear
>gwrach=hag=virago = cailleach
>
>But as many do not seem to be direct borrowings from Latin, would I be
>right in thinking that there may be a common IE link rather than a Latin
>import in many cases?
>
>dave
I think so. For example, the Sanskrit word for Widow is Vidhava, like
German Witwe, French Veuve, etc. So many familiar words seem to start
there.
There has also been some argument in the past as to whether Latin
borrowed from the Celtic languages or vice versa.
You can certainly see Latin to Celtic borrowing in the Gaelic days of
the week. The Gaelic words for day are latha, la (an original and
poetic form) and diugh, used only in "an diugh = today.
The following words appear to be of great antiquity and are probably
identical in Irish.
Monday - Di-luain (Moon in Gaelic is geallach)
Tuesday - Di-mairt (Day of Mars)
Wednesday - Di-ciadain (di +ceud + aoin - Day of first fast)
Thursday - Di-ardaoin (Day of our second fast?)
Friday - Di-haoine (Day of the Fast)
Saturday - Di-sathurna (Day of Saturn
Sunday - Di-domhnaich (Day of the Dominus/Lord. Also an old Gaelic
word for house, domhnus, cf. Russian/Polish Dom = a house. Modern
Gaelic - Taigh.)
We do have some borrowings which are unusual in that the actual
borrowing root is not always what you would suppose.
The best example is saighdear, a soldier. (said SAH-jerr and the word
from which the Scots word Sodger comes from.)
Despite its apparent relationship to the English Soldier, no
relationship exists. Salt in Gaelic is Salunn, so using the English
model, Salunnair would be the Gaelic for soldier if the word were
derived by the Latin-English route.
Saighdear comes from the word saighead, (SAH-etch), an arrow. Sagitta
in Latin, so Saighdear is an Archer, a Sagittarius. It may surprise
you to know that the Celts were expert archers - look at the Welsh
longbow - and the smaller Highland version was still a powerful
weapon.
And, like the Mongols and the native Americans, they did not pull the
bowstring back to their eye to fire. Instead they held the bow at
waist level and, holding the string, pushed the bow away until it
reached full stretch. By doing this. a much more powerful bow can be
bent than is possible if pulling the string back, thereby increasing
the power of the arrow's flight.
As a matter of interest, part of my military service was spent
examining and dissecting Highland fighting techniques so I could teach
them to soldiers. As you may or may not know, Highlanders were
extremely competent warriors and had a varied bag of fighting tricks
that won them many battles against near-impossible odds.
Just consider the possibilities of a targe, a shield held tightly to
the left arm by two bands, with a 12 inch spike sticking out in front,
while the left hand clenched a dirk, a long knife/almost short sword,
used in combination with a 36 inch long, two inch wide double edged
sword, the hand protected by a metal basket.
When attacking an enemy, the targe and spike were used to snag the
enemy's weapon and push it aside. The spike and dirk offered a good
chance to stab him at some point. Meanwhile the sword hurtled
diagonally downwards towards his left shoulder, aiming for his neck.
Rather like a man using a scythe, a Highlander could reap his way
quickly and efficiently through a dozen soldiers, which is why so many
tales exist of Highlanders defeating apparently overwhelming numbers
- he was essentially a fighting machine, protected by his weapons,
rather than by armour.
I discovered that when holding a submachine pistol, such as a Sten or
Sterling at waist height, if the left hand could be arranged in an
up-and-down position to hold the weapon as the hand would be if it
were holding a bow at waist height, extreme accuracy suddenly became
possible without aiming by eye.
I don't know why this works, but it does. I tested my theory with a
Tommygun, which has a downward pointing handle for the left hand to
hold and got amazing scores!
No doubt the old Celtic archers enjoyed the same success, especially
as, unlike the Welsh who shot from two to four hundred yards away
because they were usually facing heavily armoured cavalry, the Celtic
archer usually shot close to and the power of his bow meant he did not
have to aim upwards to get distance but could shoot in a straight
line. Killer accuracy.
As a matter of historical interest, the Welsh longbow was the guided
missile weapon of its time and irrevocably spelled the end of the
armoured knight. At Poitiers, the Welsh archers massacred the French
knights, whose chain mail and armour combination proved useless
against the metal tipped arrows raining from the sky. A good Welsh
archer could be loosing off his sixth arrow before the first one hit
its target. Multiply him by 200 companions and the enemy had no chance
of survival. The arrows must have been like a waterfall of death, with
around 1,200 in the air at the same time, all aimed with great
accuracy. Terrifying and lethal.
The knights did their best to adapt, replacing chain mail with solid
armour and doing their best to close the gaps between the fitted
pieces, but they proved so unwieldy that they were easily hooked off
their horses with pikes, and killed with a quick thrust between the
helmet and the neckplate or gorget; the weight of their armour taking
away all the freedom and quickness of movement they had enjoyed with
chain mail. Make no mistake, knights were big, tough, healthy fellows,
unlike their vassals, and they could fight all day!
As a matter of modern interest, the last time the gorget was used by
any European army was by the German military police in WWII, who wore
a symbolic style around their necks, suspended by a chain. You've seen
them in films. Today the only armour left is the helmet and most
armies, like the US Army, have adopted the German style, which
protects the back of the neck and is formed so it deflects rather than
absorbs a glancing bullet. Smart men, those old German military
designers!
I spent months studying all this stuff, so you could sleep soundly at
night, knowing that whatever happened, someone out there had a handle
on those Welsh archers and tank-like knights!
It's said that the British two-fingered obscene gesture comes from the
Welsh custom of flashing their arrow fingers at the French to show
they still had them ready for use, as the French would allegedly cut
the first and second fingers off the hand of every Welsh archer they
captured in order to neutralize the dangerous little Brythonae!
Mike MacKinnon
"Micheil" <mic...@arainnmhor.com> wrote in message
news:3aa72028.22545904@news...
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:50:00 +0000, Dave Thomas
> <da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >In article <3AA5D7A0...@socrates.berkeley.edu>, Heather Rose Jones
> ><hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> writes
> >>Taid Deri wrote:
> >>> "Dave Thomas" wrote
> >>> >Taid Deri wrote
Snipped for brevity>
> I think so. For example, the Sanskrit word for Widow is Vidhava, like
> German Witwe, French Veuve, etc. So many familiar words seem to start
> there.
>
> There has also been some argument in the past as to whether Latin
> borrowed from the Celtic languages or vice versa.
>
> You can certainly see Latin to Celtic borrowing in the Gaelic days of
> the week. The Gaelic words for day are latha, la (an original and
> poetic form) and diugh, used only in "an diugh = today.
>
> The following words appear to be of great antiquity and are probably
> identical in Irish.
>
> Monday - Di-luain (Moon in Gaelic is geallach)
> Tuesday - Di-mairt (Day of Mars)
> Wednesday - Di-ciadain (di +ceud + aoin - Day of first fast)
> Thursday - Di-ardaoin (Day of our second fast?)
> Friday - Di-haoine (Day of the Fast)
> Saturday - Di-sathurna (Day of Saturn
> Sunday - Di-domhnaich (Day of the Dominus/Lord. Also an old Gaelic
> word for house, domhnus, cf. Russian/Polish Dom = a house. Modern
> Gaelic - Taigh.)
>
Could 'Dom' also be the root for the Dutch, German etc word for 'cathedral?'
> We do have some borrowings which are unusual in that the actual
> borrowing root is not always what you would suppose.
>
> The best example is saighdear, a soldier. (said SAH-jerr and the word
> from which the Scots word Sodger comes from.)
>
> Despite its apparent relationship to the English Soldier, no
> relationship exists. Salt in Gaelic is Salunn, so using the English
> model, Salunnair would be the Gaelic for soldier if the word were
> derived by the Latin-English route.
>
> Saighdear comes from the word saighead, (SAH-etch), an arrow. Sagitta
> in Latin, so Saighdear is an Archer, a Sagittarius. It may surprise
> you to know that the Celts were expert archers - look at the Welsh
> longbow - and the smaller Highland version was still a powerful
> weapon.
Very interesting. I didn't know that.
Could this be because, by aligning the shoulder with the target, you are
actually, tho' not with the eye?
The 'Feldgendarmerie', like the 'Fallschirmjäger' were supposedly issued the
best kit and arms. You're right about the gorget.
> I spent months studying all this stuff, so you could sleep soundly at
> night, knowing that whatever happened, someone out there had a handle
> on those Welsh archers and tank-like knights!
>
> It's said that the British two-fingered obscene gesture comes from the
> Welsh custom of flashing their arrow fingers at the French to show
> they still had them ready for use, as the French would allegedly cut
> the first and second fingers off the hand of every Welsh archer they
> captured in order to neutralize the dangerous little Brythonae!
>
Well, well!! That figures. Or fingers!
Mike
Dave Thomas
writes
Big snip........
>
>I've added the Scots Gaelic equivalents to the end of each line.
>>
>>gwacau=empty=vacuo = falamh
>>gwall=mistake=fall... = mearachd
>>gwain=sheath=ven..(vein) = cuisle (the Irish Acushla = my vein = my beloved
>comes from this)
>>gwala=plenty=val..(very much) = pailteas
>>gwast..=waste=vast... = fasach (desert)
>>gweddwi=widow=vidua = banntrach
>>gwib..=roam=vag(virg..vib...) = farsanach (given to roaming)
>>gwir=truth=ver.. = firinn
>>gwisgo=robe=ves.. = falluinn
>>gwr=man=vir.. = fear
>>gwrach=hag=virago = cailleach
>>
>>But as many do not seem to be direct borrowings from Latin, would I be
>>right in thinking that there may be a common IE link rather than a Latin
>>import in many cases?
>I think so. For example, the Sanskrit word for Widow is Vidhava, like
>German Witwe, French Veuve, etc. So many familiar words seem to start
>there.
Yes I have seen something similar which translates as something like
*Woman-without*
>
>There has also been some argument in the past as to whether Latin
>borrowed from the Celtic languages or vice versa.
I have an interest in Etruscan and although I suspect that it may have a
closer affinity with Semitic languages than IE there are several words
that seem to have a Celtic ring to them
>
>You can certainly see Latin to Celtic borrowing in the Gaelic days of
>the week. The Gaelic words for day are latha, la (an original and
>poetic form) and diugh, used only in "an diugh = today.
Welsh Dydd!
>
>The following words appear to be of great antiquity and are probably
>identical in Irish.
>
>Monday - Di-luain (Moon in Gaelic is geallach)
>Tuesday - Di-mairt (Day of Mars)
>Wednesday - Di-ciadain (di +ceud + aoin - Day of first fast)
>Thursday - Di-ardaoin (Day of our second fast?)
>Friday - Di-haoine (Day of the Fast)
>Saturday - Di-sathurna (Day of Saturn
>Sunday - Di-domhnaich (Day of the Dominus/Lord. Also an old Gaelic
>word for house, domhnus, cf. Russian/Polish Dom = a house. Modern
>Gaelic - Taigh.)
Welsh Ty of course!!
>
>We do have some borrowings which are unusual in that the actual
>borrowing root is not always what you would suppose.
>
>The best example is saighdear, a soldier. (said SAH-jerr and the word
>from which the Scots word Sodger comes from.)
>
>Despite its apparent relationship to the English Soldier, no
>relationship exists. Salt in Gaelic is Salunn, so using the English
>model, Salunnair would be the Gaelic for soldier if the word were
>derived by the Latin-English route.
>
>Saighdear comes from the word saighead, (SAH-etch), an arrow. Sagitta
>in Latin, so Saighdear is an Archer, a Sagittarius. It may surprise
>you to know that the Celts were expert archers - look at the Welsh
>longbow - and the smaller Highland version was still a powerful
>weapon.
Since the Welsh for soldier is milwr, I think it is reasonable and
perhaps expected that it would be a direct Latin borrowing. Halen being
Welsh for salt doesn't figure anywhere in military use that I can see
(Greek hal=sea)?.
Saethydd or Saethwr are Welsh for archer. (as Heather points out the g
would disappear).
Snipped a fascinating account of Highland fighting techniques.....
I am sure that the Welsh long bow was developed for use against chain-
mail. What I have yet to fully grasp is who were the *Welsh* archers, I
have great difficulty in understanding whether the majority were
actually of Welsh stock or whether they were for example drawn more from
the vast number of Flemings who had been settled in Wales, originally as
a buffer between the Welsh and the Marchers.
I find it difficult to believe that the Normans would have felt
comfortable with several thousand Welshmen being allowed to hone their
archery skills at the time when rebellion was constantly in the air??
I don't think the Welsh ever achieved anything like the standard of hand
to hand fighting that the Highlanders did - from what I can gather one
of their most successful tactics were to draw the English in to the
mountainous regions and then double back to knock off the supply wagons.
This tactic together with a few weeks of Welsh drizzle led to Henry III
getting so p****d off on one expedition that he ordered the blinding of
all the hostages he would surround himself with on his Welsh visits.
As far as the Welsh long-bow was concerned, I assume that the sideways
stance was used to get distance/penetration and to maximise this the
archer would not have drawn to eye - but pulled back to get maximum
stretch?? As you say it may have been easier to push the bow forward
than pull the string back??
--
Dave Thomas
Gareth Williams
<da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> spake, saying ...
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is the GPC (Geriadur ?? Cymraeg)??
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru
Heather Rose Jones
> >> > gwrach=hag=virago
> >>
> >> The phonetics just don't look right for this correspondence.
> >
> >"Gwrach" is from a variant of the same Common Celtic root as "gwraig"
> >(*urakko vs. *urako), not related to Latin "virago"
> >
> I am surprised that there isn't a correspondence here - and interested
> that you were able to spot the incorrect phonetics.
Fairly straight-forward -- if it had been a Welsh borrowing from Latin,
then the intervocalic "g" in "virago" would have disappeared in the
transition from Brittonic to Welsh. Welsh "ch" internally (or finally,
which started out as internally) may derive from a number of sources
(geminate "k", or a number of of continuant+k combinations) but none of
them would have corresponded to Latin "g" as a common inheritance.
> I would be very interested in knowing what your etymological source is
> Heather - Pardon my ignorance, but what is the GPC (Geriadur ??
> Cymraeg)??
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru -- "the OED of Welsh".
> So what would be the PIE link to the Welsh *gw*, (K)v???
Welsh "gw" derives (primarily) from PIE consonantal "u" (also written in
some systems as "w", but this can be misleading because the vocalic and
consonantal sounds maintained close connections, and a transcription
system that represents this is probably preferable).
Dave Thomas
<g...@nospam.sorry> writes
Cheers Gareth
--
Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas
<hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> writes
>Dave Thomas wrote:
>
>> >> > gwrach=hag=virago
>> >>
>> >> The phonetics just don't look right for this correspondence.
>> >
>> >"Gwrach" is from a variant of the same Common Celtic root as "gwraig"
>> >(*urakko vs. *urako), not related to Latin "virago"
>> >
>> I am surprised that there isn't a correspondence here - and interested
>> that you were able to spot the incorrect phonetics.
>
>Fairly straight-forward -- if it had been a Welsh borrowing from Latin,
>then the intervocalic "g" in "virago" would have disappeared in the
>transition from Brittonic to Welsh. Welsh "ch" internally (or finally,
>which started out as internally) may derive from a number of sources
>(geminate "k", or a number of of continuant+k combinations) but none of
>them would have corresponded to Latin "g" as a common inheritance.
So inter-vocalic g would disappear but presumably inter-vocalic c would
be retained. I am thinking of 'Draig' presumably a derivative of draco?
Or was there already a Brittonic alternative?
>
>> I would be very interested in knowing what your etymological source is
>> Heather - Pardon my ignorance, but what is the GPC (Geriadur ??
>> Cymraeg)??
>
>Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru -- "the OED of Welsh".
Thanks Heather! I hadn't realised there was a Welsh etymological
dictionary!!!!
Winfried Hühn
> Could 'Dom' also be the root for the Dutch, German etc word for 'cathedral?'
>
German "Dom" is a borrowing from Latin "domus dei" -- House of God
Winfred
Taid Deri
"Micheil" wrote
(large snip - do I get too vicarious a pleasure from snipping posts?)
> I've added the Scots Gaelic equivalents to the end of each line.
> >
> >gwain=sheath=ven..(vein) = cuisle (the Irish Acushla = my vein = my
beloved comes from this)
You've stimulated the old memory cells again. Do I recall a song called
'Macushla', heard a few years ago in childhood?
Hwyl
Taid Deri
"Dave Thomas" wrote
(economy sized snip to save space)
> I am sure that the Welsh long bow was developed for use against chain-
> mail. What I have yet to fully grasp is who were the *Welsh* archers, I
> have great difficulty in understanding whether the majority were
> actually of Welsh stock or whether they were for example drawn more from
> the vast number of Flemings who had been settled in Wales, originally as
> a buffer between the Welsh and the Marchers.
>
> I find it difficult to believe that the Normans would have felt
> comfortable with several thousand Welshmen being allowed to hone their
> archery skills at the time when rebellion was constantly in the air??
Nice try, Dave, but I'm afraid that the archers really were red blooded
Welsh speaking Welshmen. The 14th Century was high on the Love cycle of
the Love-Hate relationship with the Plantagenet rulers, Wales prospered, the
Welsh gentry were doing very nicely out of the situation, especially in the
Marches, and the lower echelons of society had a nice little earner going,
shooting arrows for the Black Prince and his buddies. Iolo Goch's poetry
extolled their expertise and also had a few nice words to say about their
leaders - the English kings. The only time there was any doubt about
whether the Welsh would fight was early in the century at Bannockburn. In
the event they did, but they probably wished that they hadn't because they
were cut to pieces by the Scottish cavalry.
Don't forget that even Owain Glyndwr was proud to serve the King in battle
until he backed a loser in the King stakes at the end of the century.
Hwyl
Taid Deri
"dave" wrote
> 'Wales' in Mandarin is 'wei er si' - I don't know the characters, so I
> can't tell you what it means. Gong gwong dong wa ngo m jido (I don't know
> what it is in Cantonese).
Seeing the attempt at the phonetic transcription of 'Wales' into a language
which does not support an 'l' sound in that position brought back memories
of having business cards printed with a Mandarin version on the back.
Anyone who had an 'l' in their name certainly posed a problem for the
translators, but they were extremely cunning in getting around it. We
often wondered whether any translator with a sense of humour was able to
work in a 'funny' meaning into the characters used, but I don't think that
they did - at least the cards were always accepted with a straight face.
However, if our names were used in the body of a report or letter the
Mandarin characters were never used. The letter used to be turned on its
side and the full European name typed in, making an extremely slow job
(typing the letter in characters) even slower. I suppose that computers
have made such typing jobs much easier nowadays.
All strictly irrelevant, but, anyway, thanks for the memory.
Hwyl
Micheil
My understanding is that Etruscan is closely linked to Gheg and Tosk,
the two languages of Albania.
Pelagos, I think.
The Gaelic for soldier is Mile. There is a village in Galicia, where
we apparently lived for a thousand years or more, called Ardmile,
which is Gaelic for High Soldier or Head Soldier; i.e. General.
>
>Saethydd or Saethwr are Welsh for archer. (as Heather points out the g
>would disappear).
>
>Snipped a fascinating account of Highland fighting techniques.....
>
>I am sure that the Welsh long bow was developed for use against chain-
>mail. What I have yet to fully grasp is who were the *Welsh* archers, I
>have great difficulty in understanding whether the majority were
>actually of Welsh stock or whether they were for example drawn more from
>the vast number of Flemings who had been settled in Wales, originally as
>a buffer between the Welsh and the Marchers.
>
>I find it difficult to believe that the Normans would have felt
>comfortable with several thousand Welshmen being allowed to hone their
>archery skills at the time when rebellion was constantly in the air??
>
>I don't think the Welsh ever achieved anything like the standard of hand
>to hand fighting that the Highlanders did - from what I can gather one
>of their most successful tactics were to draw the English in to the
>mountainous regions and then double back to knock off the supply wagons.
>This tactic together with a few weeks of Welsh drizzle led to Henry III
>getting so p****d off on one expedition that he ordered the blinding of
>all the hostages he would surround himself with on his Welsh visits.
>
>As far as the Welsh long-bow was concerned, I assume that the sideways
>stance was used to get distance/penetration and to maximise this the
>archer would not have drawn to eye - but pulled back to get maximum
>stretch?? As you say it may have been easier to push the bow forward
>than pull the string back??
For sure - far too many accounts of this technique exist for it to
have been mere speculation.
The standard Highland battle technique was to run at high speed
against the enemy and swarm them. Like all irregular troops, the
lightning strike followd by the lightning withdrawal was their
standard fighting plan.
Culloden was lost because for the first time the Highlanders were
ordered to stand and fight in the European manner and were decimated
by the English cannon while the vacillating Prince Charles tried to
make up his mind to order them to charge.
Even so, when the order to charge finally came, many managed to fight
their way through the first three ranks of Redcoats and attack the
auxiliaries.
Many were killed by a new technique introduced by the Duke of
Cumberland, whereby when a Highlander raised his sword to strike, the
English soldier to the left of the man being attacked stabbed the
Highlander in the armpit with his new-fangled bayonet and prayed that
his companion to his left did the same to the Highlander attacking
him.
It should be understood that this was a brave action on the part of
the English soldier, as he could not defend himself against the man
directly attacking him. It worked, and the power of the Highland
tribes was lost for ever on that day at Culloden.
We their descendants are raised with a sense of futile rage that we
could not have been there to turn the day. Rather like the people in
Florida who could have voted in the Bush-Gore election and didn't
bother!
>Dave Thomas
Micheil
I think it's an Indo-European word. so it would be almost universal
among Indo-European languages.
>> We do have some borrowings which are unusual in that the actual
>> borrowing root is not always what you would suppose.
>>
>> The best example is saighdear, a soldier. (said SAH-jerr and the word
>> from which the Scots word Sodger comes from.)
>>
>> Despite its apparent relationship to the English Soldier, no
>> relationship exists. Salt in Gaelic is Salunn, so using the English
>> model, Salunnair would be the Gaelic for soldier if the word were
>> derived by the Latin-English route.
>>
>> Saighdear comes from the word saighead, (SAH-etch), an arrow. Sagitta
>> in Latin, so Saighdear is an Archer, a Sagittarius. It may surprise
>> you to know that the Celts were expert archers - look at the Welsh
>> longbow - and the smaller Highland version was still a powerful
>> weapon.
>
>Very interesting. I didn't know that.
It is, isn't it? I was delighted when someone first explained it to
me.
It has to be something like that. There are lots of tricks for
shooting straight without using the eye. The best known is probably
the American Western trick of laying the forefinger along the barrel
of a revolver and using the second finger to pull the trigger.
This is based on the indisputable fact that when you point at
something, you point at it directly. Try it on someone - point
directly at their eye and chances are they'll tell you all they can
see is the end of your finger - proof that your pointing aim is deadly
accurate!
Sadly, you can't do this with an automatic pistol, as the sliding
action of the the spent case being ejected and a new round loaded
makes it impossible, unless you want to jam the weapon.
Short-barreled weapons are notoriously inaccurate beyond a few yards,
so when you see a cowboy shoot out where no one gets hurt, it may look
silly, but technically it's totally accurate!
That's why the long-barreled pistol is favoured by professional
assassins - I'm not talking about rubbish like the Mafia, but people
like the old KGB Department V, "Mokriyeh Diyela - Wet Affairs" as it
was nicknamed - because it gives one a lot more accuracy at a
distance.
A pistol is really a very poor weapon, no matter how much
craftsmanship goes into it, and pistols like the 4"-barrel Saturday
Night Special often seen in US detective films, and the Derringer, are
nearly useless unless you fire within five feet of the victim.
The danger is that, unlike a longer barreled pistol, which you can
take away from a gunman fairly safely if you're quick and intelligent
in choosing your moment, you can fumble the short-barreled pistol and
get shot.
Seeing we're into professional notes, if you're ever in a situation
where a pistol is being held on you, a pro keeps it close to his body
so you can't snatch it away. Oddly, this is reassuring, as it tells
you he's a pro and won't fire unless he think it's necessary.
The ones who terrify me are the ones who hold the pistol at arm's
length, as until you can get close enough to grab it away,there is an
excellent chance that anything sudden happening will startle them into
firing and if you're the one it's pointing at, you may be killed.
If you're ever in a hostage situation, the longer you're there, the
more precarious your chances of survival are. Once the terrorists
start killing people, you are in extreme danger and should use any
chance you get to counter attack.
Again, terrorists are usually well-trained and you will have few
opportunities to get close enough, but if you do, a pencil, pen or
handle of a steel comb suddenly stabbed into his or her eye is vastly
preferable to you being shot and dumped out the front door to persuade
the other side to hurry along with the cash and the plane out of town.
If you're lucky, it will happen in Israel or the US, where there is a
good chance that the hostages will include some older men with Vietnam
combat experience and no emotional problems about killing terrorists.
If you're unlucky, you'll be among a bunch of pacifists who will
succumb instantly to the Stockholm Syndrome and turn you in if they
see you getting ready to fight, in the hope of trading you for their
own survival.
The key to survival is your willingness to kill. If your own life is
at stake, try it - you'll love it!
The Wehrmacht nickname for them was "Chaindogs", referring to their
gorget chains.
Micheil
Just a few days ago I rediscovered a Chinese invitation card which I
have treasured lo these many years.
Here is the exact wording.
"LNVLTATLON"
"Mr.Cao Yong requests the horrour of your
Presence at the Inouguration of the Paint
-ing Exhibition of himself on Tuesday mor
-ning, on Febrary 14th at 10 o'clocR At
Beijing Artist Gallery ( Beijing Concert
Hall )"
Cao Yong was a Tibetan and one of the leading avant-garde of Chinese
art; a rather sad overtone. Who knows how it went - it arrived long
after the exhibition date.
Here's another invitation from a Chinese coastal city, Dalian, from
the Mayor, Wei Fuhai, who wrote to potential guests inviting them to
attend a get-together from 25-28 May, called: "China International
Business Conference and Negotiations".
The invitation concludes with a flourish and an unforgettable
misprint.
"Dear Mr, and Mrs, Dalian is the window of foreign economic
cooperation of China and a beautiful tourist city as well. Kind
hospitality, A-class service and expected fruitful outcome will add
the beauty and charm of Dalian spring in May. She is inviting you and
your friends to come as quests. It is our firm belief that your visit
and stay here will be worthwhile and forgetable."
In Peking's Friendship Store, the latest brand of paper tissues was
launched under the unforgettable name, "Clean Finger Nail".
As this was the brand name in English they finally decided on, the
mind boggles at some of the names the makers must have considered.
In the bad old Maoist days, one was blandly introduced or referred to
"the Responsible Official of the Department Concerned". Very
remniniscent of that notorious Soviet Government Department,
"Upravleniye Diyela" - the "Department of Doings".
Now China lets it all hang out, as per Xu Ruiling's card. He was the:
"Vice-whole Manage of The Tobacco Mechanical Bloc Co., Kunming
Kunming Machine % Factory of the Part-time-job Factory Director"
And finally an excerpt from a sports report in the China Daily, which
proves that a misprint can be more accurate than the original version:
"It was the 73rd career Grand Prick title for McEnroe."
Micheil
You did indeed - what I wrote was confusing, (sorry!) as "A chuisle"
really means "Oh love (vein)" and "Mo chuisle" means "My love (vein)".
In modern Scots Gaelic there is a tendency to drop the "A" when using
the vocative case and the only people who use it habitually these days
are learners, who are stuck with grammars and dictionaries written in
the beginning or middle of the 20th century.
In Scots Gaelic and other languages, including Scots in days gone by,
using parts of the body other than the heart was quite common when
expressing love, thus "My vein!" The Irish still do it.
A similar concept is seen in the English oaths, "Stab me (vitals)!" -
18th c.; "In the bowels of Christ" - Oliver Cromwell, 17th c.; and in
20th c. Cockney, "Cor blimey!" (God blind me.)
If you've noticed the Irish expression, "Asthore" that means "Oh
treasure".
Scots and Irish Gaelic are mutually intelligible and so is Manx, once
one deciphers the spelling, which is a form of English phonetics.
Indeed, there is a legend that the Isle of Man was settled by Outer
Hebrideans at some time in the distant past.
Interesting story in the Telegraph a couple of weeks ago - new DNA
studies showing that as many as 60% of Icelandic women are of Scottish
descent. A lot of forgotten history implicit in that statistic.
It will be interesting to see how many Welsh people living in Môn (or
Anglesey as we foreign folk say!) are actually Irish by descent. With
all the upsets DNA is producing these days, it will come as no
surprise to find that the Celtic people were actually Ainus from Japan
who thought they were on their way to their winter holiday in Hawai'i!
Dave Thomas
writes
>>
>>I have an interest in Etruscan and although I suspect that it may have a
>>closer affinity with Semitic languages than IE there are several words
>>that seem to have a Celtic ring to them
>
>My understanding is that Etruscan is closely linked to Gheg and Tosk,
>the two languages of Albania.
The nearest matching scripts were found in Lydia. Many of the names
connected with divination are close matches with Semitic although the
inscriptions use less *flowery* language. Etruscan uses one word for
eternaly - where the same text in Phoenician uses *for as many years as
there are stars in the sky*.
>>Since the Welsh for soldier is milwr, I think it is reasonable and
>>perhaps expected that it would be a direct Latin borrowing. Halen being
>>Welsh for salt doesn't figure anywhere in military use that I can see
>>(Greek hal=sea)?.
>
>Pelagos, I think.
And also hals (which is also salt in NT Greek).
>
>The Gaelic for soldier is Mile. There is a village in Galicia, where
>we apparently lived for a thousand years or more, called Ardmile,
>which is Gaelic for High Soldier or Head Soldier; i.e. General.
Ah! So it may not be a Latin borrowing then!!
>>As far as the Welsh long-bow was concerned, I assume that the sideways
>>stance was used to get distance/penetration and to maximise this the
>>archer would not have drawn to eye - but pulled back to get maximum
>>stretch?? As you say it may have been easier to push the bow forward
>>than pull the string back??
>
>For sure - far too many accounts of this technique exist for it to
>have been mere speculation.
>
>The standard Highland battle technique was to run at high speed
>against the enemy and swarm them. Like all irregular troops, the
>lightning strike followd by the lightning withdrawal was their
>standard fighting plan.
>
>Culloden was lost because for the first time the Highlanders were
>ordered to stand and fight in the European manner and were decimated
>by the English cannon while the vacillating Prince Charles tried to
>make up his mind to order them to charge.
>
>Even so, when the order to charge finally came, many managed to fight
>their way through the first three ranks of Redcoats and attack the
>auxiliaries.
>
>Many were killed by a new technique introduced by the Duke of
>Cumberland, whereby when a Highlander raised his sword to strike, the
>English soldier to the left of the man being attacked stabbed the
>Highlander in the armpit with his new-fangled bayonet and prayed that
>his companion to his left did the same to the Highlander attacking
>him.
I was at Culloden last year, (quite an experience). The *sgiaths*? in
the museum did not have the spikes of the earlier shields. Presumably
the spike and dirk technique would have been less effective against
bayonets than swords? Of course the shields on display may not have been
representative of those actually used on the battlefield.
>
>It should be understood that this was a brave action on the part of
>the English soldier, as he could not defend himself against the man
>directly attacking him. It worked, and the power of the Highland
>tribes was lost for ever on that day at Culloden.
>
>We their descendants are raised with a sense of futile rage that we
>could not have been there to turn the day. Rather like the people in
>Florida who could have voted in the Bush-Gore election and didn't
>bother!
:-)
Dave Thomas
edu.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>
>"Dave Thomas" wrote
> (economy sized snip to save space)
>
>> I am sure that the Welsh long bow was developed for use against chain-
>> mail. What I have yet to fully grasp is who were the *Welsh* archers, I
>> have great difficulty in understanding whether the majority were
>> actually of Welsh stock or whether they were for example drawn more from
>> the vast number of Flemings who had been settled in Wales, originally as
>> a buffer between the Welsh and the Marchers.
>>
>> I find it difficult to believe that the Normans would have felt
>> comfortable with several thousand Welshmen being allowed to hone their
>> archery skills at the time when rebellion was constantly in the air??
>
>Nice try, Dave, but I'm afraid that the archers really were red blooded
>Welsh speaking Welshmen.
Oh I know many were Deri. But the Crecy Roll at Carmarthen lists many
names that were not ap.
>The 14th Century was high on the Love cycle of
>the Love-Hate relationship with the Plantagenet rulers, Wales prospered,
Well this is a little off topic but I know you would be disappointed if
I didn't respond.;-)
Colonisation creates many complexities of loyalties. The Statute of
Rhuddlan had defined the Welsh as second class citizens, who could not
own land, live in towns, trade, marry English people etc. Despite this
there was of course a squirearchy, many of whom bought licences to be
English (often revoked by the local lord - when it suited him - as the
get out clause was *against the Lords interest*).
So Wales may have prospered but without the right to trade it is
difficult to see how the Welsh would have prospered.
> the
>Welsh gentry were doing very nicely out of the situation, especially in the
>Marches,
The squirearchy in the Marches were questionably worse off than in the
Principality as they had no recourse to the Kings Law and were generally
excluded from lands below 500 ft.
>and the lower echelons of society had a nice little earner going,
>shooting arrows for the Black Prince and his buddies.
There were also several hundred Welshmen living in France, who fought
for the French....
>Iolo Goch's poetry
>extolled their expertise and also had a few nice words to say about their
>leaders - the English kings.
Iolo Goch had only *king's men* as his patrons - (possibly a wise choice
as they would have been the better off of the Welsh). - Sir Rhys ap
Gruffydd - (one of the first Welshmen to plead to be made an Englishman)
- Sir Hywel y Fwyall - He even wrote a Panygeric on the Earl of March -
Roger Mortimer ... whose popularity in the Principality was boundless!!!
>The only time there was any doubt about
>whether the Welsh would fight was early in the century at Bannockburn. In
>the event they did, but they probably wished that they hadn't because they
>were cut to pieces by the Scottish cavalry.
From the accounts of Highland fighting here, they would not have stood a
chance. ;-)
>Don't forget that even Owain Glyndwr was proud to serve the King in battle
>until he backed a loser in the King stakes at the end of the century.
Whether he was proud or not - he certainly was viewed as a Kings man
originally - but many sources indicate that he was being groomed for
stardom, by the Welsh squirearchy, as early as 1380.
No! The point I was trying to make is that most of the burgesses of the
North lived in fear of attacks from the Welsh and petitioned for more
protection. There had been numerous small scale uprisings and attacks.
The settlers here were convinced that the Welsh would drive them all
from the country.
I would not see the situation as being much different than that in India
when it was colonised. Those leaders who came over to the British being
allowed to retain some token measure of perceived authority.
The formation of armies from Colonial troops is always a risky business
and there are a few mutinies to prove it.
What puzzles me a little is how the Welsh archers would have maintained
their skills. Remember, they were barred from living anywhere that they
could have been supervised - like garrison towns! Dishing out rifles
willy nilly, to Indian sepoys and allowing them to take them home to
practice, doesn't sound like good military practice - The majority of
the Welsh peasantry lived, unsupervised in the Welshries of the Marches
and away from the rural English communities in the Principality.
To maintain the arm strength required for longbow archery surely
required constant practice - It became mandatory for Englishmen to
practice their archery - how and where did the Welsh archer maintain his
skill?
Taid Deri
"Micheil" wrote
> Interesting story in the Telegraph a couple of weeks ago - new DNA
> studies showing that as many as 60% of Icelandic women are of Scottish
> descent. A lot of forgotten history implicit in that statistic.
>
Fascinating. I can see the young Vikings now, in the spring, with the sap
rising in their veins, hopping in to their long boats for a trip down to
Scotland for a bit of rape and pillage, and liking it so much that they
decided to take a bit of homework back with them. But then I have to say,
wait a minute, where did the the experts isolate their original Scottish
gene? There's another study going on at the moment in the Northern
Highlands and Islands which is expected to show that most folk up there
carry Norse genes. If that is so and the original study took its gene
samples from the North then it's possible that they have merely found more
Norse genes in Iceland, so that Magnusdottir is pure Norse after all.
I find these studies interesting, but the geneticists seem to me to be very
coy about revealing the basis for their very mediable conclusions. I know
that in the very few I've seen which give sample sizes and geographical
distributions I could draw rather different conclusions to the ones they
publish. Never mind, still interesting, but to be taken with a grain of
salt as yet.
> It will be interesting to see how many Welsh people living in Môn (or
> Anglesey as we foreign folk say!) are actually Irish by descent. With
> all the upsets DNA is producing these days, it will come as no
> surprise to find that the Celtic people were actually Ainus from Japan
> who thought they were on their way to their winter holiday in Hawai'i!
Farsands of 'em. The first recorded inhabitants were Irish, or Goidels
anyway, and there is lots of historical evidence of subsequent invasions by
the Irish, including the Viking Irish. I recall that Auleodd, King of
Dublin etc, had a castle at Moel-y-Don, where I used to swim as a lad.
(Incidentally, it was his great grandson, Madoc, who discovered America.)
Even where I live now, some 20 miles inland on the mainland, we have lots of
place name indications of an Irish presence, including a hill called
Iwerddon (Ireland).
The Ainu theory I like.
Hwyl
Taid Deri
"Dave Thomas" wrote
> No! The point I was trying to make is that most of the burgesses of the
> North lived in fear of attacks from the Welsh and petitioned for more
> protection. There had been numerous small scale uprisings and attacks.
> The settlers here were convinced that the Welsh would drive them all
> from the country.
>
> What puzzles me a little is how the Welsh archers would have maintained
> their skills. Remember, they were barred from living anywhere that they
> could have been supervised - like garrison towns! Dishing out rifles
> willy nilly, to Indian sepoys and allowing them to take them home to
> practice, doesn't sound like good military practice - The majority of
> the Welsh peasantry lived, unsupervised in the Welshries of the Marches
> and away from the rural English communities in the Principality.
>
> To maintain the arm strength required for longbow archery surely
> required constant practice - It became mandatory for Englishmen to
> practice their archery - how and where did the Welsh archer maintain his
> skill?
I'm not an expert in archery (amongst many other things) but wasn't it the
custom for a bowman to make his own bow to suit himself -his arrows as well-
so there would be no question of the English dishing out bows to them?
Then what's needed? A field, a boy with an apple on his head, and away you
go. They certainly would not need supervision from an English NCO.
Anyway, they must have practised somewhere because they were still at it at
Agincourt in 1415 on behalf of the King - or young Prince Hal as he then
was.
By the way, as you are probably aware, it is still mandatory to practise
your archery.
Hwyl
Micheil
<mars...@pentredu.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Micheil" wrote
>
>> Interesting story in the Telegraph a couple of weeks ago - new DNA
>> studies showing that as many as 60% of Icelandic women are of Scottish
>> descent. A lot of forgotten history implicit in that statistic.
>>
>Fascinating. I can see the young Vikings now, in the spring, with the sap
>rising in their veins, hopping in to their long boats for a trip down to
>Scotland for a bit of rape and pillage, and liking it so much that they
>decided to take a bit of homework back with them. But then I have to say,
>wait a minute, where did the the experts isolate their original Scottish
>gene? There's another study going on at the moment in the Northern
>Highlands and Islands which is expected to show that most folk up there
>carry Norse genes. If that is so and the original study took its gene
>samples from the North then it's possible that they have merely found more
>Norse genes in Iceland, so that Magnusdottir is pure Norse after all.
>I find these studies interesting, but the geneticists seem to me to be very
>coy about revealing the basis for their very mediable conclusions. I know
>that in the very few I've seen which give sample sizes and geographical
>distributions I could draw rather different conclusions to the ones they
>publish. Never mind, still interesting, but to be taken with a grain of
>salt as yet.
There was a previous study suggesting that many Irish people went to
live in Iceland as well.
As for Norse blood in the Northern Highlands and Island, that's taken
for granted by us, as half the names are Norse. If you remember that
Mac means Son, then it doesn't take much imagination to back-translate
to the root names of MacNeil (Nilssen), MacAuliffe (Olafssen),
MacAnders (Anderssen), MacLeod (Lodssen), etc.
Many Gaelic first names in that area are also heavily Norse - Torquil,
Somhairle (Somerled). The Hebrides stopped speaking Norse in about the
1400s and in Shetland and Orkney, in the 1600s. Many Hebridean place
names are Norse rather than Gaelic, like Stein in Skye, Trollaval
(Troll Mountain) on my island, Rum, and Stornoway (Steornabhagh -
Steorna's Bay) in the Outer Hebrides.
>> It will be interesting to see how many Welsh people living in Môn (or
>> Anglesey as we foreign folk say!) are actually Irish by descent. With
>> all the upsets DNA is producing these days, it will come as no
>> surprise to find that the Celtic people were actually Ainus from Japan
>> who thought they were on their way to their winter holiday in Hawai'i!
>
>Farsands of 'em. The first recorded inhabitants were Irish, or Goidels
>anyway, and there is lots of historical evidence of subsequent invasions by
>the Irish, including the Viking Irish. I recall that Auleodd, King of
>Dublin etc, had a castle at Moel-y-Don, where I used to swim as a lad.
>(Incidentally, it was his great grandson, Madoc, who discovered America.)
>Even where I live now, some 20 miles inland on the mainland, we have lots of
>place name indications of an Irish presence, including a hill called
>Iwerddon (Ireland).
I ben close to where the Mandans lived - they were the tribe alleged
to be descended from Prince Madoc's men. Many early Welsh explorers
commented on similarities between the two cultures, coracles, similar
words, etc. Unfortunately we'll never know for sure, because disease
brought by the whites wiped out the entire tribe in the 1840s.
>The Ainu theory I like.
The Japanese call them the "Hairy Ainu"; the English call us the
"Hairy Arses".
I rest my case!
Hwyl
Heather Rose Jones
>
> In article <3AA7D135...@socrates.berkeley.edu>, Heather Rose Jones
> <hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> writes
> >Dave Thomas wrote:
> >
> >> >> > gwrach=hag=virago
> >> >>
> >> >> The phonetics just don't look right for this correspondence.
> >> >
> >> >"Gwrach" is from a variant of the same Common Celtic root as "gwraig"
> >> >(*urakko vs. *urako), not related to Latin "virago"
> >> >
> >> I am surprised that there isn't a correspondence here - and interested
> >> that you were able to spot the incorrect phonetics.
> >
> >Fairly straight-forward -- if it had been a Welsh borrowing from Latin,
> >then the intervocalic "g" in "virago" would have disappeared in the
> >transition from Brittonic to Welsh. Welsh "ch" internally (or finally,
> >which started out as internally) may derive from a number of sources
> >(geminate "k", or a number of of continuant+k combinations) but none of
> >them would have corresponded to Latin "g" as a common inheritance.
>
> So inter-vocalic g would disappear but presumably inter-vocalic c would
> be retained. I am thinking of 'Draig' presumably a derivative of draco?
> Or was there already a Brittonic alternative?
Intervocalic "c" would have lenited to "g" -- what you have to keep in
mind is that the later Welsh grammatical lenition is just a special case
of the intervocalic (to oversimplify somewhat) lenition that occurred
throughout the language. In places where the environment was fixed
(e.g., the middle of a word) the lenition simply became a permanent
sound-change. In places where the environment was determined by
neighboring words, it became grammatical.
Charles Jones
> There are lots of tricks for
> shooting straight without using the eye. The best known is probably
> the American Western trick of laying the forefinger along the barrel
> of a revolver and using the second finger to pull the trigger.
Wow, the only time I've ever done that I considered it a serious mistake.
The bruise from the gasses at the barrel/cylinder gap didn't go away for
a week.
But then I have long fingers ...
CharlesJ
--
===========================================================
Works at HP, doesn't | Charles Jones
speak for HP | Hewlett-Packard Company - CPSS
| Loveland, Colorado, USA
Micheil
wrote:
>In article <3aa9c507.14288196@news>, mic...@arainnmhor.com says...
>
>> There are lots of tricks for
>> shooting straight without using the eye. The best known is probably
>> the American Western trick of laying the forefinger along the barrel
>> of a revolver and using the second finger to pull the trigger.
>
>Wow, the only time I've ever done that I considered it a serious mistake.
>The bruise from the gasses at the barrel/cylinder gap didn't go away for
>a week.
>
>But then I have long fingers ...
>
>CharlesJ
>
And the cowboys wore leather gloves!