Paging Madra Dubh
Michilín
came across a phrase "bainney clabbagh"
Leaving aside much tracing of roots, etc., Bainney clabbagh means
curdled milk, and I remembered that "Come clabber come" is part of an
old Appalachian rhyme when beating milk with a dasher to make the
butter form more quickly.
So if your mother used to make butter and sing that old rhyme, now you
know where the word clabber comes from.
The more deeply I get into Manx, the more interesting I find it,
especially as the dictionary I'm working off is ancient and some of
the English words I don't know, but the Manx is close enough to Gaelic
that I can translate the old-style English into a modern English
equivalent.
I find it a unique experience to be using Scots Gaelic to translate
Manx Gaelic words so I can understand words no longer used in English.
Maybe it's an augury for the future, when we are all in Tìr nan Òg
(Ti\r nan O\g) where the only language spoken is Gaelic and we never
hear English again, except when souls who have managed to escape from
Paradise are hammering on our doors shouting, "PLEASE let us in!"
Michilín
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:423fbbf3.12442611@news...
>> I'm still working quietly away on the Manx-English dictionary and I
>> came across a phrase "bainney clabbagh"
>>
>> Leaving aside much tracing of roots, etc., Bainney clabbagh means
>> curdled milk, and I remembered that "Come clabber come" is part of an
>> old Appalachian rhyme when beating milk with a dasher to make the
>> butter form more quickly.
>
>It was indeed a churn song and clabbered milk was an expression commonly
>used.
>
>> So if your mother used to make butter and sing that old rhyme, now you
>> know where the word clabber comes from.
>
>Another grand old custom dying away.
>No one keeps milk cows any more.
>
>> The more deeply I get into Manx, the more interesting I find it,
>> especially as the dictionary I'm working off is ancient and some of
>> the English words I don't know, but the Manx is close enough to Gaelic
>> that I can translate the old-style English into a modern English
>> equivalent.
>
>I understand that after the last fluent speaker died there was a resurgence
>in efforts to preserve the language.
I understand it's now taught in schools as well as to adults and last
week I even saw an advertisement for a Manx teacher wanted with a fair
knowledge of the language, who must have his own car, etc. etc., so
obviously he's going to be travelling round the Island schools.
If you want to hear what Manx sounds like, here's are two short
Manx-language clips with a written translation.
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaelg/goo/samples.htm
I've been musing on the geo-political considerations and have
regretfully decided that with the best will in the world, we cannot
claim Man as the southernmost island of the Hebrides. No doubt they
will indignantly proclaim that they belong to themselves and no other!
I also found a piece of informnsation which says that Manx is a
combination of Ulster and Galloway (Scotland) Gaelic. As Ulster Gaelic
is essentially Scottish Gaelic with an accent and almost
indistinguishable from Islay Gaelic, I guess that's why it's so easy
for Scottish Gaels to understand Manx.
>
>> I find it a unique experience to be using Scots Gaelic to translate
>> Manx Gaelic words so I can understand words no longer used in English.
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's an augury for the future, when we are all in Tìr nan Òg
>> (Ti\r nan O\g) where the only language spoken is Gaelic and we never
>> hear English again, except when souls who have managed to escape from
>> Paradise are hammering on our doors shouting, "PLEASE let us in!"
>
>And since we all will be speaking God's own native tongue, we'll be
>understood and they won't.
Exactly! How very human that even in death we still think of our own
exclusivity!
Michilín
Madra Dubh
> came across a phrase "bainney clabbagh"
>
> Leaving aside much tracing of roots, etc., Bainney clabbagh means
> curdled milk, and I remembered that "Come clabber come" is part of an
> old Appalachian rhyme when beating milk with a dasher to make the
> butter form more quickly.
It was indeed a churn song and clabbered milk was an expression commonly
used.
> So if your mother used to make butter and sing that old rhyme, now you
> know where the word clabber comes from.
Another grand old custom dying away.
No one keeps milk cows any more.
> The more deeply I get into Manx, the more interesting I find it,
> especially as the dictionary I'm working off is ancient and some of
> the English words I don't know, but the Manx is close enough to Gaelic
> that I can translate the old-style English into a modern English
> equivalent.
I understand that after the last fluent speaker died there was a resurgence
in efforts to preserve the language.
> I find it a unique experience to be using Scots Gaelic to translate
> Manx Gaelic words so I can understand words no longer used in English.
>
>
> Maybe it's an augury for the future, when we are all in Tìr nan Òg
> (Ti\r nan O\g) where the only language spoken is Gaelic and we never
> hear English again, except when souls who have managed to escape from
> Paradise are hammering on our doors shouting, "PLEASE let us in!"
And since we all will be speaking God's own native tongue, we'll be
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42403e31.1160418@news...
Thanks, Highlander.
The pronunciation and rhythm seems, to this uneducated ear, quite different
than Irish Gaelic.
Much more so than one would expect for such closely related tongues.
What think ye?
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42403e31.1160418@news...
We humans do have a tendency to set ourselves apart.
Must be some ancient survival instinct.
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>> Maybe it's an augury for the future, when we are all in Těr nan Ňg
>>>> (Ti\r nan O\g) where the only language spoken is Gaelic and we never
>>>> hear English again, except when souls who have managed to escape from
>>>> Paradise are hammering on our doors shouting, "PLEASE let us in!"
>>>
>>>And since we all will be speaking God's own native tongue, we'll be
>>>understood and they won't.
>>
>> Exactly! How very human that even in death we still think of our own
>> exclusivity!
>
>Thanks, Highlander.
>The pronunciation and rhythm seems, to this uneducated ear, quite different
>than Irish Gaelic.
>Much more so than one would expect for such closely related tongues.
>What think ye?
It's as near Scots Gaelic as damn it. Remember, the Manx say it's a
combination of Ulster Gaelic and Galloway Gaelic, both of which were
closer to Scots Gaelic than modern Irish and both of which are nbow
extinct. All, including all versions of Scots Gaelic, were originally
dialects of Old Irish.
What startles me once in a while is that after a long run of what are
essentially Scots Gaelic words spelled with English spelling, suddenly
a completely different word will be given for a word which is shared
by Irish and Scots. For example, England is normally called Sasunn in
the Gaelic languages, but in Manx it is called Hoastyn. In Welsh
England is Lloegr.
I think there's some Welsh and maybe northwest English input into
Manx.
Michilín
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>> Maybe it's an augury for the future, when we are all in Těr nan Ňg
>>>> (Ti\r nan O\g) where the only language spoken is Gaelic and we never
>>>> hear English again, except when souls who have managed to escape from
>>>> Paradise are hammering on our doors shouting, "PLEASE let us in!"
>>>
>>>And since we all will be speaking God's own native tongue, we'll be
>>>understood and they won't.
>>
>> Exactly! How very human that even in death we still think of our own
>> exclusivity!
>
>We humans do have a tendency to set ourselves apart.
>Must be some ancient survival instinct.
The tribe against the world.
It seems that many of the names humans call themselves by mean "The
People". As opposed to the outsiders, one presumes.
Michilín
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42419d02.5815692@news...
It is a very common practice among Native Americans, calling themselves,
variously,
The People
The real people
True men
and on and on.
The real hoot to all this is the names Europeans picked up for the different
Indian nations.
Usually the names were derogatory slang for the next tribe up the road.
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Yeah, I can see that. We weren't exactly complimentary about the
neighbours either...
Michilín
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:4242200b.2694754@news...
Yes, I see what you mean, calling all those nice *nglishmen Sassenach,
Limey, and Pommie, and all.
I was interested to see there are derogatory terms used by the Lowland Scot
toward the Highland Scot to this day and even heard in Canada.
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42419410.3526450@news...
I've often wondered if there are any writings extant of ancient Gaulish and
if so, which (if any) of the modern Celtic languages it most resembled.
The Real Fifeshire Bimbo
> > Yeah, I can see that. We weren't exactly complimentary
> > about the neighbours either...
>
> Yes, I see what you mean, calling all those nice *nglishmen
> Sassenach, Limey, and Pommie, and all.
> I was interested to see there are derogatory terms used by
> the Lowland Scot toward the Highland Scot to this day and
> even heard in Canada.
Speaking as a Lowland Scot, Madra ... I'd have to say that is totally
untrue... pure fiction in fact! The product of pure paranoia :)
--
Cheers, Helen
hramsay at cogeco dot ca
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Maybe it's an augury for the future, when we are all in Tìr nan Òg
I was once shown a word list taken from Celtic grave inscriptions in
Portugal and most of the words were recognizable.
My (completely unacademic) feeling is that the Celtic languages are
quite likely very conservative, like Greek or Arabic, which have not
changed a great deal in several thousand years, so that one can select
a word from a Brythonic language (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and more
often than not find a recognizably similar Irish, Scots or Manx
equivalent.
Because of this, my guess is that Gaulish languges would have been
quite similar to modern Celtic languages. Indeed, it might even be
possible to reconstruct a Gaulish-type language form the survivors,
especially Old Irish which is still well-documented. Most Celtic
languages from the past however have never been written down butv were
oral cultures, with the exception of Welsh which was both oral and
written.
The tribes of Celtic speech came to the British Isles in two distinct
waves. The earlier invasion of the Goidels arrived in England with a
culture of bronze about 800 B.C., and in Ireland two centuries later,
and was part of the same movement which brought the Gauls into France.
The later conquest was by the Cymric-speaking Belgae who were equipped
with iron weapons. It began in the third century B.C., and was still
going on in Caesar's time. These Cymric Brythons reached Ireland in
small numbers only in the second century B.C. (Source: various)
Old Irish was spoken before and after the time of Christ.
Here's an Old Irish word list with Scottish Gaelic and English
translations: It's a good selection because it covers a range of
vocabulary and shows how little Old Irish and its granddaughter, Scots
Gaelic have changed over the last 2,000 - 3,000 years.
Old Irish ScotsGaelic English
(old/new meaning)
cú ------------------- cù -------------- hound
tol ------------------- toil ------------- will, wish
póc ----------------- pòg ----------- kiss
berid --------------- beir ----------- carry/catch
céle ---------------- cèile ---------- companion/spouse
ór ------------------- òr --------------- gold
buiden ------------ buidheann -- company, troop
delb --------------- dealbh -------- image/painting
dét ----------------- dèideadh ---- tooth/toothache
gort --------------- gort ------------- field, enclosure
dún ---------------- dùn ------------- fortress, fort, hill
bó ----------------- bò -------------- cow
mér -------------- meur ----------- finger
mug ------------- tràill ------------ slave
mod -------------- modh ---------- way, work
dub -------------- dubh ----------- black
dam ------------- damh ---------- ox/bullock, ox, stag
abb ------------- aba ------------- abbot
lomm ----------- lom ------------- bare, empty
loc --------------- loc ------------- place/place (archaic)
fod -------------- fada ----------- length
popul ----------- pobull --------- people
macc ----------- mac ------------ son
att --------------- at --------------- swelling
sopp ----------- sop ------------- wisp
ech ------------- each ----------- horse
áth -------------- àth ------------- ford
oíph ------------ maise --------- beauty
fér --------------- feur ------------ grass
sacart ---------- sagart -------- priest
secht ----------- seachd ------- seven
rún -------------- rùn-dìomhair - secret
corr ------------- còrra-sgriach - crane (bird)
coll ------------- calltainn ------ hazel
nert ------------- neart ---------- strength
tonn ------------ tonn ------------ wave
Michilín
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Maybe it's an augury for the future, when we are all in Tìr nan Òg
You've seen one in scs - teuchter, a word whose origin is allegedly
unknown, but is probably German; a part of the Lowland ancestry that
Lowlanders prefer to gloss over... The hatred of the Lowlanders for
the Highlanders is legendary in the Highlands and preserved in a
phrase "mì-rùn mòr nan Gall" - the total hatred of the Lowlander for
the Highlander.
It was seen in the massacre at Glencoe, in the treatment of the
wounded and captured after Culloden, in the rape, robbery and murder
in the Highlands by Lowland commanders and their troops in the search
for Bonnie Prince Charlie and in the later brutality of the famine and
the Clearances.
Lowlanders in Gaelic are called Gall, a word ,meaning foreigner, as in
Innse-Gall - Isles of Foreigners - the Hebrides.
The foreigners were the Vikings; the Hebrides were part of Norway
until the 1200s and Norse continued to be spoken there until the
1400s.
This puts the Islanders in the rather odd position of preserving the
Highlanders' language for them.
Michilín
Alan Smaill
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:35:17 GMT, "Madra Dubh"
> <cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
...
>>I've often wondered if there are any writings extant of ancient Gaulish and
>>if so, which (if any) of the modern Celtic languages it most resembled.
>>
>>
> I was once shown a word list taken from Celtic grave inscriptions in
> Portugal and most of the words were recognizable.
>
> My (completely unacademic) feeling is that the Celtic languages are
> quite likely very conservative, like Greek or Arabic, which have not
> changed a great deal in several thousand years, so that one can select
> a word from a Brythonic language (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) and more
> often than not find a recognizably similar Irish, Scots or Manx
> equivalent.
>
> Because of this, my guess is that Gaulish languges would have been
> quite similar to modern Celtic languages. Indeed, it might even be
> possible to reconstruct a Gaulish-type language form the survivors,
> especially Old Irish which is still well-documented. Most Celtic
> languages from the past however have never been written down butv were
> oral cultures, with the exception of Welsh which was both oral and
> written.
There's quite a bit known about gaulish Celtic, which goes in the
p-Celtic camp like Welsh. You can find bits and pieces on-line
eg:
french words of Gaulois origin:
users.skynet.be/sky37816/Mots_gaulois.html
even the English "change" is plausibly from Gaulish borrowed
into Latin and French.
> Michilín
--
Alan Smaill
Madra Dubh
"The Real Fifeshire Bimbo" <fi...@theKingdom.net> wrote in message
news:nlD0e.11834$RM2....@read1.cgocable.net...
Ah the ever picked upon Lowlanders...
;=)
The Real Fifeshire Bimbo
> "The Real Fifeshire Bimbo" <fi...@theKingdom.net> wrote
> >> "Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote
> >
> >> > Yeah, I can see that. We weren't exactly complimentary
> >> > about the neighbours either...
> >>
> >> Yes, I see what you mean, calling all those nice *nglishmen
> >> Sassenach, Limey, and Pommie, and all.
> >> I was interested to see there are derogatory terms used by
> >> the Lowland Scot toward the Highland Scot to this day and
> >> even heard in Canada.
Could you be a bit more explicit here Madra, please. Did I miss something
or was it indeed something I said?
> > Speaking as a Lowland Scot, Madra ... I'd have to say
> > that is totally untrue... pure fiction in fact! The product of
> > pure paranoia :)
> Ah the ever picked upon Lowlanders...
> ;=)
I think you have things reversed here my friend.
;-)
Josiah Jenkins
Fifeshire Bimbo" <fi...@theKingdom.net> :
So what's new ?
-- JJJ
Michilín
wrote:
Thank you - interesting. Regarding :borrowings, did you notice the old
word for place - "loc" clearly a borrowing from Latin "locus".
I was also surprised to discover that the Manx word for water is
ushtey and not ushkey as one would expect, given uisge/uisce from
Scots and Irish Gaelic.
I havw two thousand more cut and pastes to do and then I'll have
completed "A" and "B" in this dictionary venture. I figure there must
be something in the order of 25,000 - 30,000 entries.
Once I have the complete Manx-English dictionary on my computer in
Microsoft excel format, I can then sort them alphabetically and create
an English-Manx dictionary. This includes making thoiusands more
entries for reciprocal words, like oie=night and night =oie (Gaelic =
oidhche) .
After that I have to translate many of the English words which are
archaic. I have already learned lots of new (old) words I didn't know.
Because Manx is so like Gaelic, it helps me spot errors much more
quickly than I would if I were working with a language quite unlike
one I already know. It even enables me to insert expanded translations
for the unfortunately highly colloquial English which the previous
compiler was addicted to, back in the early 1900s I'd guess - lots of
Biggles-era words. For example, I left "Hard Cheese! as the
translation for B'olk eh! but also added Bad Luck!
I have a few days off as my poisoned foot struck again, so I went to
see my doctor and told him to cut open the sole of my foot and sort
out the problem. The pain was unbelievable when he pushed a needle in
to te area to "freeze" it - . - I understand now why beating people on
the soles of their feet is so popular in Asia. I have to wait three
days for the slit skin to heal and meanwhile it's really sore if I put
pressure on it at all. Thank God for whisky...
Michilín
Michilín
You mean that "Teuchter" is actually a Lowland word meaning "Our
beloved northern brethren and sistren..."
>Ah the ever picked upon Lowlanders...
> ;=)
I feel so guilty...
Michilín
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:4242f3c4.6185414@news...
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:35:17 GMT, "Madra Dubh"
I see your point.
Gaelic seems to have escaped the evolutionary changes one finds in other
languages.
As a matter of interest, did you use the old spellings for both the
examples?
I seem to recall there was a modernization of spellings for the Irish Gaelic
some years back.
Madra Dubh
"Alan Smaill" <sma...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fwe8y4c...@harpsquoy.inf.ed.ac.uk...
Alan, no English on this site?
I am very interested in checking it out.
Madra Dubh
"The Real Fifeshire Bimbo" <fi...@theKingdom.net> wrote in message
news:3mJ0e.11872$RM2....@read1.cgocable.net...
Not at all, Miz Helen.
I know to whom I am talking!
;=)
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:424386ff.43875940@news...
Well at least you guys aren't tossing Lowlanders off cliffs (are you)?
Odd though, there is also a distaste and distrust of "Fine Haired Furiners
from the lowlands even in my mountains.
Could this be true of mountain cultures everywhere?
Alan Smaill
> "Alan Smaill" <sma...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:fwe8y4c...@harpsquoy.inf.ed.ac.uk...
>> There's quite a bit known about gaulish Celtic, which goes in the
>> p-Celtic camp like Welsh. You can find bits and pieces on-line
>>
>> eg:
>> french words of Gaulois origin:
>> users.skynet.be/sky37816/Mots_gaulois.html
>
> Alan, no English on this site?
> I am very interested in checking it out.
English for a few on that site: (the * forms of gaulish are
assumed reconstructions)
Gaulish French Eng
*ard (prefix) ardoise slate
*arependis arpent acre
aven aven long cave
*banalto balai broom
barde barde bard
bec bec mouth (cf beak)
*blato blé wheat
*bawa boue mud
*bruco bruyère heath
etc etc
The resources I have seen are all French based,
eg French/Gaulish dictionary (380 pages!)
www.ladifference.fr/fiches/livres/francais-gaulois.html
ad for the book:
This handy guide, the first of its kind, arose from the need to satisfy
the many legitimate linguistic questions of the French about this
framentary ancestral toungue which varied recent discoveries have
opened up, and from which they have been cut off from time immemorial,
so much so that they sometimes doubt its very existence.
This work is of the highest lexicographic standard, giving for each entry
a word confirmed as gaulish (cited by an ancient (Roman) writer, found
in an inscription, reconstructed by certain rules); the meaning is clarified
by comparison with other Indo-european languages (most often old Irish),
allowing translation of the range of composite terms in which it
may appear. .....
--
Alan Smaill
Michilín
No, I used the modern Scots-Gaelic spellings. The Old Irish spellings
are of course unchangeable at this point in time as they are an
historical record. The Scots Gaelic equivalents are more valid in many
ways than the Irish equivalent, as Scots Gaelic might be said to be
further away from Old Irish than Modern Irish as a result of having
been spoken in a different country for some 1,500 years now.
I also used the Scots-Gaelic equivalents because I know them, whereas
I would have had to spend hours double-checking the Irish equivalents,
which I can recognize easily enough but don't actually know.
Michilín
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Whoa!
French words of Gallic origin
Based on an idea from Alain La Bonté.
Development of the list and collating: Olivier Bettens, Alain La
Bonté*, Jean-Pierre Lacroux*.
* (These are Breton names. Any French name starting with Le or La is
Breton in origin, just a O' is Irish and Mac is Scottish.
This list synthesizes the present state of an enterprise that is far
from being finished...
Last update: December 15, 1997. Further modifications will be
announced on France_langue.
Source abbreviations.
B: Biblorom Larousse.
H: Historic Robert.
L: Larousse of Old French.
P: Picoche.
R: Electronic Robert.
T: Tardivel.
W: Henriette Walter.
French word translations:
Column 1 - French word
Column 2 - Etymon (Earlier form of word in same language or ancestor
language. (* = not confirmed).
Column 3 - Date
Column 4 - Citation
Column 5 - Remarks.
1 - ajonc prélat. *jauga > ajo(u) XIIIe s. 1389 (P)RH berrichon agon
1 - furze/gorse prelate *jauga > ajo(u) XIIIe s. 1389 (P)RH berrichon
agon
From here on it becomes pretty rugged. Ther's a lot of searfching
around "alize" words, a French obsession with the idea that names
including the sound alize are found at leyline intersections, q.v.
(I can't believe how much crap I have stored in my brain!)
There is also chat about alose meaning a fish. As Gaulish is Cymbric,
we should expect the same word in Welsh, but a fish in Welsh is byscod
and I guess a clear Indo-European relation of Latin: piscus, Norse
fisk and English fish. (sk in Norse become sh in English -
skipper/shipper; skirt/shirt, etc.
Alouette - a lark.
In Latin: Alauda, connected with French "aloe". Most unlikely - aloe
is a wild fruit. Lark in Bretonis alc’hweder, in Welsh, ehedydd.
I suppose one could "hear" some faint resemblance...
Next, Alpe is Alp, a Celtic word as seen in Gaelic "Alba" =
"Scotland", allegedly "mountain pasture" in some obscure Celtic
language I don't have much faith in.
Ambassade, gaulish "ambactos" from Latin.
Next ardoise from Gaulish root "ard" = "high" in Gaelic and Irish and
also Ardennes, which I had never thought of but seems rational.
arpent ignored as latin.
aven means a pothole,
swallow (I assume from avaler = to swallow - the bird called swallow
in Welsh and Breton is gwennol and gwennili-siminal respectively)
or mountain chasm composed of limestone.
------------------------------------------------
(While hunting the Net for Welsh words, I found this:
http://groups.msn.com/WelshRepublicanComment/cymruscool.msnw
I was struck by its slogan - "
British is bullshit - Cymru (Wales) is cool"
(To show we're still on topic, slogan is derived from the Gaelic
sluagh gairm = war cry.)
The big problem here is that although I know some Welsh, I need a good
Welsh or Breton dictionary to compare these alleged Gaulish words.
The authors here are comparing their word collection to discover
modern French/Belgian/Swiss words which are of Gaulish origin. I think
there would be far better luck with known Cymbric languages like
Welsh, Breton or Cornish, or even more distant Celtic languages like
Scots Gaelic, Irish and Manx, as seen in the "ard" example which is
common to all three living Gaelic languages.
Here are some gaulish links in English!
http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/project/glossary/gloss2.html
The remarks on the Tocharian languages are particularly interesting as
they were very likely spoken by the Celts who moved to the East,
rather than the west, and whose communities are being excavated in
China as I type.
There was also an interesting remark about the Celts possibly getting
the word "cu" (Irish/Gaelic for "dog") from Chinese "ku" (dog - in
Cantonese, "gow") I think this is unlikely, as there are always a
percentage of words in unrelated languages which sound like and have
the same meaning, but purely by chance. The Japanese word "Taberu =
table" (remember that the Japanese pronounce "L" as "R") is an
example; but the Japanese had taberus long before they ever met a
European.
Also, the Gaelic plural for cu is coin, similar to the Greek Cynon
(dogs) and Latin Canus a dog and canine, like a dog. While the Celts
may have spent time wandering in Asia, their passage through or past
Greece was brief, although noted by local recorders of Greek history
who called them "Keltoi", the first mention of the word "Celtic" known
in European history.
(Facts may be slightly askew here and there, but the general thrust is
fairly accurate!)
Michilín
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Definitely. All mountain cultures react that way and for good reasons.
Firstly they only live in mountains because they were unable to get a
hold of the much better lowland arable land.
Secondly, they may have chosen to live in mountains as protection
against lowlanders.
From a lowlander's point of view, high land is worthless except as
summer grazing pasture, so there is no point in attacking the
highlanders to get it away from them.
Switzerland is the classic European example. Its entire defence system
is based on the rational theory that Switzerland is essentially
useless to anyone else, but if someone decides to attack it, they are
going to have a tough time capturing it, mountain by mountain.
Rather like Holland, which uses the sea as its defence and foils
invaders by opening the sea dykes and flooding the countryside. Or the
scorched earth policy which Russia has always used in summer, and the
Russian winter which they used to defeat Napoleon and Hitler.
Michilín
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I am very interested in checking it out.
More Gaulish words
http://www.lexilogos.com/gaulois_langue_dictionnaires.htm
Michilín
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:424441db.7618635@news...
>>"Alan Smaill" <sma...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
Thank you gentlemen for some excellent sites.
I had no idea that so much of the Gaulish tongue had been preserved.
I noticed a more marked resemblance to Latin than is to be found in modern
Celtic languages.
Could this be because Gaulish is closer in time to the ancient Italic mother
tongue (assuming this theory is still acceptable)?
Or could it be the influence of the Roman legions?
Or traders humping across the Alps?
Alan Smaill
I'm guessing that some of the forms recorded were a bit Latinised
in the recording (some of the words are known through mentions
in Latin texts). Also later Latin incorporated some Gaulish
words, which then got into French/Spanish via Latin
(chemin/camino for path), and it must be hard to separate out
the latin/Gaulish forms.
The idea of Italic origins for Celtic languages is not so popular these
days, see eg Colin Renfrew's "Archaeology and Language".
--
Alan Smaill
Michilín
I don't think it's even a starter at the gate. Individual words
borrowed back and forth are seductive at first glance, but the
structure and grammar of the Celtic languages instantly dismiss any
thought of a mother-daughter relationship.
The Celtic languages may have been in contact with Italic languages,
but there is no way that they ever married them. Indeed, the grammar
and structure of the Celtic languages hint lightly at a Semitic root,
but there is still something missing; possibly to be supplied by
Tocharian A or B or something like them.
Michilín
Madra Dubh
"Alan Smaill" <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:fwe7jju...@doncaster.inf.ed.ac.uk...
Even with my very limited knowledge of Gaelic, I see words that ought not be
loaners.
Such as the words for horse (Capal), sea, (Mar) etc:
Where do they believe Celtic languages fit on the Indo European language
tree these days.
We're not back to a Germanic tie, are we?
Michilín
The Celtic branch is a separate branch on its own. It is considered
the most distant of all the Indo European languages in terms of being
related. It has been suggested that the Celts learned their Celtic
language from another Indo-European group, but imposed the
non-Indo-European grammar/syntax from their old language onto the new
language.
Irish-English did pretty much the same thing, moving Irish grammar on
to their new English language and adjusting it to fit their comfort
zone by having Irish syntax replace English syntax. Thus:
Irish: Ah well now, Madra, if it isn't yourself that's come!
English: Ah, Madra, so you've come!
>We're not back to a Germanic tie, are we?
No.
There is a school of thought which thinks the Romans may have borrowed
the words from the Celts.
There is no doubt however, that a big word sharing took place. I could
probably write down a hundred examples given a little time and a Latin
dictionary (I have one) to look through to pick out examples from.
Your capall word is used throughout all the Romance languages as
caballo, etc. and even as chevalier in French; one who rides a cheval
(horse), just as cavalry do in English.
As for Mar, that word exists in almost all Indo-European languages.
From Morye in Russian to Mar in Spanish, Mer in French and Muir in
Gaelic - Mara is the genitive, of the sea, thus Macnamara - son of the
sea.
Oddly, in the northern Indo-European languages, mer or its equivalents
usually mean a lake, rather the sea. Meer in German, Mere in English,
etc. The word Sea is similar in the North as Zee or minor variations.
In the south, Lake is Lacus, Lago, Lac - and in Gaelic, Loch,
confirming that Gaelic entered Europe from the south rather than round
the northern Alps.. Various theories have all failed to convince as to
why the switch happened.
Sanskrit is the mother of all our western languages except for the few
which came from Mongolian like Finnish, Hungarian, Estonian and
Latvian or Lithuanian - I can never remember which, and Basque, a
pre-Indo-European language which has no relative in the world, yet
whose speakers, DNA tells us are closely related to us Celts.
Is Basque the language we originally spoke somewhere out there on the
Anatolian or the Asian plains and whose Grammar we imposed on a Celtic
language we heard and switched to, or whose original speakers enslaved
us, or what??
I have sat reading Basque grammar, but it does not seem especially
Gaelic, nor like any other language I know something about, really.
It has its own weirdnesses, but then what language hasn't?
Basque is called Euskara (Clear Speaking) by its users - check it out
for yourself!
Michilín
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:42477fb6.9130408@news...
I'd never considered that.
And your example using modern Irish and English clarifies the concept.
Perhaps there is some truth after all to the Steppes of Russia legends.
Perhaps not the language but what of the gramatic structure?
Is there a commonality there (pursuing your observation).
Michilín
<cca...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
None. It could not be further away from a Celtic language
grammatically. The syntax is entirely different and definitely
non-Indo-European.
BTW, I've now finished cutting and pasting "B" in the Manx Dictionary.
It took me six hours. Both A and B were huge. I now have to cut and
paste "C" which is even bigger; over 7,000 entries. The rest of the
alphabet, except for M and S as in most languages - there's a
psycholinguistic theory lurking there about baby noises - are much
smaller.
What has impressed me is the hge amount of scientific information and
also the number of unknown (to me) obscure English words I have to
research and add notes about. I figure that if I don't know an English
word, very few other people will know it, especially children.
For example: gerbe, corbel, twite, sumner's sheaf, etc.
gerbe - wreath (from French "gerbe - a wreath")
corbel - A bracket of stone, wood, brick, or other building material,
projecting from the face of a wall and generally used to support a
cornice or arch.
twite - small linnet-like finch
sumner's sheaf - or sumner's dues, which include a sheaf of three
bands of the three "principal corns", to be rendered by every
husbandman. Ref: http://www.gumbley.net/notea.htm - Manx Church Law in
the 19th Century.
Then there's the sex stuff as usual:
bwoideeaght or bwoidiaght - sexual intercourse.
bwoailley - penis
bwoalley - erection
bwoailley y crackan - masturbate - (lit. stretching the leather) *
brillane - clitoris
* the same phrase is used in Scots and Irish Gaelic.
and of course a poiint that has been frequently made, that the Celtic
languages can cope just as easily with new technical words as any
other language. For example, English usually borrows rather than
create, so it takes the word helicopter from Greek helico ptera,
circling wing, while Manx gives an old word a new meaning, bennaltagh,
flutterer or helicopter. Gaelic on the other hand, like English,
copies from Greek with heileacoptair.
I notice too some specifically Irish words rather than Scottish - like
rince - dance, Manx rinkey, where Scots says dannsa.
I really like this Manx language. The fact that is is written in
English phonetics makes it very easy to read and in some ways, less
confrontational than Irish or Scots Gaelic.
So, here endeth today's lesson!
Michilín
Michilín
that Manx might use Welsh words.
When you look at the location of the Isle of Man, you can see that it
lies pretty much equidistant from Ireland, Scotland, England and
Wales.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/information/map-uk.shtml
It seems reasonable therefore that people from Man would be in touch
with people from the surrounding countries and vice-versa.
However, what caught my attention as I was slogging my way through the
8,500 Manx words beginning with "C" were:
caayr = dwelling place or city
Caayr Adrian = Adrianople (Adrian's city)
caayr vriwnys = magistrate's bench or in literal translation, place of
sentence.
Vriwnys (say "vree-uh-neesh") is clearly Scots Gaelic bhreitheanais
(pronounce it "vree-uh-neesh") meaning "of judgement". Many non-Gaelic
speaking Scots are familiar with the word Brieve, a judge.
I know that Caer is Welsh for a fort.
In Irish and Gaelic fort is Dun, as in Dun Eidinn - Edwin's Fort, =
Edinburgh, seen in another version in the New Zealand city of Dunedin.
Dun is probably ancient British for fort as well, because the first
meaning for Dun in the Celtic languages is hill, as words like "dune"
in English seem too fortuitous to be coincidental.
The best known Caer in Welsh is Caernarfon, or Caernarvon as it is
often written in English to show that "f" is pronounced "v" in Welsh.
(The "f" sound in Welsh is written with a double letter, "ff", which
is why one sees strange looking family names like Smythe-ffrenshe
(Smith-French).
Caernarfon as I see it breaks down into:
Caer = fort/castle
yn = in
ar Fon = at/on/in the face of Fon,
There is an area called Arfon and as I know by the magic of Celtic
grammar that Fon must be Mon in the nominative case, then I know that
Caernarfon MUST be located on the land facing the island of Mon, or in
English, Anglesey.
Okay, I've found a Welsh map and sure enough Caernarfon is on the
coast looking directly at Mon, aka Anglesay.
http://www.derifawr.co.uk/gifs/anglesey_map.gif
(I'm quite pleased with myself for using my knowledge of Celtic
languages to make an educated guess and have it confirmed so promptly,
especially as I honestly had no idea where Caernarfon was.)
So if we return to our first map:
http://www.isle-of-man.com/information/map-uk.shtml
you can just make out (or take my word for it) that the Isle of Mon
(Anglesey) lies due south of the Isle of Man, with about 40 miles of
seas between them, I would guesstimate. For those unfamiliar with
distances at sea, the Isles of Mon and Man should be clearly visible
to each other on a good day.
So did the Welsh invade Man or what?
In a way they did. Mon/Anglesey saw a Roman fort built on the
outskirts of present day Caernarfon, called Segontium. The Romans knew
that Mon was a Druid stronghold and had already pinpointed the Druids
both in France and in Britain as the leaders of rebellion against
Roman rule. By the by, in modern Scots Gaelic Druidhe/Draoidh (the
spelling varies) means a sage, wise man, wizard, sorcerer and
unsurprisingly, druid.
Little is known now about Druids, mainly because of the Christian
church's absolute determination to exterminate every last one. We do
know that they fought against St. Columba, the bringer of Christianity
to Scotland, both when he evicted them from Iona and when he overcame
their magical demonstrations at the court of the Pictish King Brude,
who however was obviously not particularly impressed as he did not
convert to Christianity.
It is related that the Druids drew the Nature Cycle in the sand and
said that Christ conflicted with it. Columba took his staff and drew
an intersecting cross within the circle, saying that God does not
conflict with nature, but being the creator of it, compliments it. The
Druids allegedly withdrew in frustration. I would surmise that the
Cross inside the Nature Cycle became today's Celtic Cross.
The Romans gave some details of Druidical training which was to a
level almost incomprehensible to anyone except those who have spent
their lifetime learning Chinese characters.
Robert Graves, whom many consider to be the one really consequential
historical novelist of the twentieth century. give an extremely
detailed description of the Druids in his book, "I Claudius".
Like Siegfried Sassoon, he sublimated what he saw as the brutality and
stupidity of WWI by writing poetry, but later, disillusioned by how
the public were being systematically misled by politicians and the
press, wrote an autobiography called "Good-bye to All That" which is
now considered one of the best of the twentieth century.
His subsequent books examining western civilization, stand as a
monument to a great mind. The continuing commercial success of his
novels, "I Claudious" and "Claudius the God" and the popularity of
their BBC television adaptation is anything but coincidental.
Graves uses ancient Rome to show us the underbelly of contemporary
Europe and in so doing, opens our eyes to the reality of our own
civilization. Because he is a writer whose intellectual honesty shines
through every sentence, I personally consider his research on Druids
to be as authoritative as anything available today and this is why I
have taken a minute or two to eulogize him above in order to establish
what I consider to be his bona fides.
Here is what he wrote and it seems there is little doubt that his
words accurately reflect what the Romans originally reported. This is
going to be fairly lengthy, but those who object should remember that
this deals with the religion of Scotland and the other Celtic nations
before Christianity came. Few subjects could be more on topic.
From: 'I Claudius' by Robert Graves. The speaker is the Roman Emperor
Claudius. I have paragraphed it to make it less daunting to read.
"It would be as well to give here in brief an account of the main
features of Druidism, a religion which seems to be a fusion of Celtic
and aboriginal beliefs. I cannot guarantee that the details are true,
for reports are conflicting. No Druidical lore is allowed to be
consigned to writing and a terrible fate is threatened to those who
reveal even the less important mysteries.
"My account is based on the statements of prominent apostates from the
religion, but these include no Druidical priests. No consecrated Druid
has ever been persuaded to reveal the inner mysteries even under
torture.
"The word 'Druid' means 'Oak-man', because that is their sacred tree.
Their sacred year begins with the budding of the oak and ends with the
falling of its leaves. There is a god called Tanarus whose symbol is
the oak. It is he who with a flash of Iightening generates the
mistletoe on the oak-tree branch, which is the sovereign remedy
against witchcraft and all diseases.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(My note: In the Highlands, mistletoe was replaced by the mountain ash
or rowan tree. Many still grow in gardens in the Highlands and Cape
Breton and some still fashion protective crosses from its branches to
hang over cattle stalls, etc. Anyone who has been to a traditional
Christmas will remember seeing people being kissed under the
mistletoe, the remnants of a blessing to celebrate the start of the
New Year and the death of winter, translated into a Christmas - but
not a Christian - custom.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is also a sun-god called Mahon whose symbol is a white bull.
And then there is Lug, a god of medicine, poetry, and the arts, whose
symbol is the snake. These are all, however, the same person, a God of
Life-in-Death, worshipped in different aspects, like Osiris in Egypt.
"As Osiris is yearly drowned by a god of waste waters, so, this triple
deity is yearly killed by the God of Darkness and Water, his uncle
Nodons, and restored to life by the power of his sister Sulis, the
Goddess of Healing who corresponds to Isis.
"Nodons manifests himself by a monstrous wave of water, twelve feet
high, that at regular intervals comes running up the mouth of the
Severn, (My note: The famous Severn Bore still does the same today)
chief of the western rivers, causing great destruction to crops and
huts as far as thirty miles inland.
"The Druidical religion is not practised by the tribes as such, for
they are fighting units commanded by kings and noblemen, but by
thirteen secret societies, named after various sacred animals, the
members of any one of which belong to a variety of tribes; because it
is the month in which one is born - they have a thirteen-month year -
which decides the society to which one is to belong.
"There are the Beavers, and the Mice, and the Wolves, and the Rabbits,
and the Wild Cats (Clan Chattan - the Cat Society - still exists south
of Inverness under the Macintosh of Moy), and the Owls, and so on, and
each society has a particular lore of its own and is presided over by
a Druid. The Arch-Druid rules over the whole cult. The Druids take
no part in fighting, and members of the same society who fight tribal
battles on opposite sides are pledged to run to each other's rescue.
"The mysteries of the Druidical religion are concerned with a belief
in the immortality of the human soul, in support of which many natural
analogies are offered. One of these is the daily death and rebirth of
the sun, another is the yearly death and yearly rebirth of the leaves
of the oak, another is the yearly cutting of the corn and the
springing up of the seed.
"They say that man when he dies goes westward, like the setting sun,
to live in certain islands in the Atlantic ocean, until the time shall
come for him to be born again. (My note: the original belief, still
spoken of by Celts as the Scottish 'Tìr nan Òg', the Irish 'Tír na
nÓg' and the Manx 'Cheer ny Aeg'; the land of eternal youth)
"All over the island there are sacred altars known as 'dolmens', one
flat stone laid on two or more uprights. These are used in the
initiation ceremonies of the societies. The initiation is at once a
death and a rebirth. The candidate lies on the lintel stone and a
mock-sacrifice is then performed. By some magical means, the Druid
who performs it seems to cut off the man's head, which is exhibited
bleeding to the crowd.
The head is then joined to the trunk again and the supposed corpse is
placed underneath the dolmen, as in a grave, with mistletoe between
its lips; from which, after many prayers and charms, the new man comes
forth as if he were a child emerging from the womb and is instructed
in his new life by god-parents.
"Besides these dolmens there are upright stone altars, devoted to
phallic rites; for the Celtic Osiris resembles the Egyptian one in
this respect too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My note: Brittany (France) in particular abounds in dolmens. some
marching on in rows for miles.
The born-again concept seems to be a never-ending religious
phenomenon, not unique to Christianity by any means. It was widespread
and extremely popular among various religons at the time of Christ,
which has led many to suggest that Christ's Crucifixion was a faked
born-again death. This has resulted in at least one major heresy,
still followed by some in southern France it has been suggested,
called the Cathar Heresy which has been the subject of much
speculation and several books like "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" In
Occitan, that southern French language we keep returning to, Holy
Blood translates as Sang Real and it has been suggested that Holy
Grail is a misunderstanding of Sang Real as San Grail - Holy Cup.
It should also be kept in mind that travel was widespread in Roman
times, even silk from China was being sold in Rome by 100 BC. Ideas
travelled too; Claudius' remarks about the the ceremonies surrounding
the Egyptian god Osiris were probably known in Gaul (France)
The God Baal in the Bible was well known, and his name still lingers
in Britain in the Scottish festival of Beltane and the English
expression, to give someone "a baleful look". In Victorian times bale
was still used as a word for evil - "Tidings of bale she brought"
(William Cullen Bryant) and also for mental suffering or anguish -
"Relieve my spirit from the bale that bows it down" (Benjamin
Disraeli). In English it is still; used to mean a false God (Christian
influence again - religions hate competition.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rank in the societies is decided by the number of sacrifices a man
makes to the Gods, standing on the lintel stone of his ancestral
dolmen, by the number of enemies he kills in battle and by the honours
he wins in the annual religious games as charioteer, juggler,
wrestler, poet, or harper.
"Rank is shown by the masks and head-dresses which are wom during the
ceremonies and by the blue designs executed in woad (a marsh plant)
with which their whole bodies are painted. The Druid priesthood is
recruited from young men who have attained high rank in their secret
societies and to whom certain marks of divine favour have been given.
"But twenty years of hard study at the Druidical college are first
called for and it is by no means every candidate who succeeds in
passing through the necessary thirty-two degrees. The first twelve
years are spent in being initiated in turn into all the other secret
societies, ,in learning by heart enormous sagas of mythological poetry
and in the study of law, music, and astronomy. The next three years
are spent in the study of medicine. The next three are spent in the
study of omens and magic.
"The tests put upon candidates for the priesthood are immensely
severe. For example, there is a test of poetical composition. The
candidates must lie naked all night in a coffin-like box, only his
nostrils protruding above the icy water with which it is filled, and
with heavy stones laid on his chest. In this position he must compose
a poem of considerable length in the most difficult of the many
difficult bardic metres, on a subject which is given him as he is
placed in the box. On his emergence next mormng he must be able to
chant this poem to a melody which he has been simultaneously
composing, and accompany himself on the harp.
"Another test is to stand before the whole body of Druids and be asked
verse-questions in riddling form which must be answered in further
riddles, also in verse. These riddles all refer to obscure incidents
in the sacred poems, which which the candidate is supposed to be
familiar. Besides all this he must be able to raise magic mists and
winds and perform all sorts of conjuring tricks
.
"I shall tell you here of my only experience of Druidical magic. I
once asked a Druid to show me his skill. He called for three peas and
put them in a row across the palm of my outstretched hand. He said:
'Without moving your arm, can you blow away,the middle pea and not
blow away the outer ones?'
"I tried, but of course I could not; my breath blew all three peas
away. He picked them up and laid them in a row across his own palm.
Then he hold down the outer ones with the forefinger and little finger
of the same hand and blew the entre one away easily. I was angry at
being fooled. 'Anyone could do that,' I said, 'That's not magic,'
"He handed me the peas again. 'Try it,' he ordered.
"I began to do what he had done, but to my chagrin I found that not
only could I not command enough breath to blow away the pea - my lungs
seemed suddenly tightened - but that when l wanted to straighten out
my bent fingers again I could not. They were tightly cramped against
my palm and the nails were gradually driving into my flesh so that it
was with difficulty that I refrained from crying out. The sweat was
pouring down my face..,
"He asked, 'Is it so easy to do?'
"I answered ruefully: 'Not when a Druid is present.' He touched my
wrist and my fingers recovered from their cramp.
"The candidate's last test but one is to spend the longest night of
the year seated on a rocldng-stone called the 'Perilous Seat' which is
balanced over a deep chasm in a mountain somewhere in the west of the
island. Evil spirits come and talk to him all night and try by various
means to make him lose his balance.
"He must not answer a word, but address prayers and hyrnns of praise
to the Gods. If he escapes from this ordeal he is permitted to take
the final test, which is to drink a poisoned cup and go into a death
trance, and visit the Island of the Dead, and bring back from there
such proofs of his visit as will convince the examining Druids that he
has been accepted by the God of Life-in-Death as his priest.
"There are three ranks of Druid priests. There are those who have
passed all the tests, the true Druids; then come the Bards, those who
have passed in the bardic tests but have not yet satisfied the
examiners in soothsaying, medicine, and magic; then
come those who have satisfied the examiners in these latter tests,
but have not yet taken their bardic degree - they are known as the
Ovates or Listeners. It needs a bold heart to enter for the final
tests, which result in the death of three candidates out of every
five, I am informed, so most men are content enough with the degree of
Bard or Ovate.
"The Druids, then, are the law-givers and judges and the controllers
of public and private religion, and the greatest punishment that they
can mflict is to interdict men from the holy rites. Since this
excommunication is equivalent to sentencing men to perpetual
extinction - for only by taking part in these rites can they hope to
be reborn when they come to die - the Druids are all powerful, and it
is only a fool who will dare to oppose them.
"Every five years there is a great religious cleansing - like our
(Roman) five yearly census - and in expiation of national sins human
victims am burned alive in great wicker cages built to resemble men.
The victims are bandits, criminals, men who have revealed religious
secrets or have been guilty of any similar crime, and men whom the
Druids accuse of having unlawfully,practised magic to suit their
private ends and of having blighted crops or caused a pestilence by
doing so.
"The Druids at that time outlawed any man who had embraced the Roman
religion or allied himself by marriage with a family that had done so.
That, I suppose, they were entitled to do; but when it came to burning
such people alive, then they had to be taught a lesson.
"They have two peculiarly holy places. T'he first is the island of
Anglesey (Mon) on the west coast, where their winter quarters are,
among great groves of sacred oaks, and the sacred oak-log fire is kept
burning. This fire, kindled originally by lighting, is distributed
for the cremation of corpses, to ensure their reincarnation.
"The other sacred place is a great stone temple in the middle of
Britain, consisting of concentric rings of enormous trilithic and
monolithic altars. It is dedicated to the God of Life-In-Death and
from the New Year, which they reckon from the spring equinox, until
midsummer, they hold their annual religious Games there.
"A red-haired young man is chosen to represent the God dressed in
marvellous robes. While the Games last he is free to exactly as he
pleases. Everything is at his disposal, and if he a fancy to any
jewel or weapon, the owner counts himself honoured and gives it up
gladly. All the most beautiful girls are his playmates, and the
competing athletes and musicians do everything they can to win his
favour.
"Shortly before midsummer, however, he goes with the Arch-Druid, who
is the representative of the God of Death, to an oak on which
mistletoe grows. The Arch-Druid climbs the oak and cuts the mistletoe
with a golden sickle, taking care that it does not touch the ground.
This mistletoe is the soul of the oak, which then mysteriously withers
away. A white bull is sacrificed.
"The young man is wrapped in leafy oak branches and taken to the
Temple, which is so oriented that at dawn on Midsummer Day the sun
strikes down an avenue of stones and lights up the principal altar
where the young-man is laid, fast bound, and where the Arch-Druid
sacrifices him with the sharpened stem of the mistletoe. I cannot
discover what eventually happens to the body, which for the present
remains laid out on the stone of sacrifice, showing no sign of decay.
"But the priestess of Sulis, from a western town called the 'Waters of
Sulis', where there are medicinal springs, comes to claim it at the
autumn festival of farewell and the Goddess is then supposed to
restore it to life. The God is said to go by boat to the western
island where Nodons lives and to conquer him after a fierce fight.
The winter storms are the noise of that fight. He reappears next year
in the person of the new victim. The withered oak tree provides now
logs for the sacred fire.
"At the autumn festival of farewell each society sacrifices its tribal
animal, burning a wicker cage full of them, and all ritual masks and
head-dresses are burned too. It is at this stone temple that the
complicated initiation ceremony for new Druids takes place. It is said
to involve the sacrifice of newly-bom children. The temple stands in
the centre of a great necropolis, for all Druids and men of high
religious rank are buried here with ceremonies that ensure
reincarnation.
"There are British battle-gods and goddesses too, but they have little
connection with the Druid religion and sufficiently resemble our own
Mars and Bellona to make no description necessary.
"In France, the centre of Druidism was at Dreux, a town lying to the
west of Paris, some eighty miles from the Channel coast. Human
sacrifices continued to be performed there just as if Roman
civilization did not exist.
"Imagine, the Druids used to cut open the bodies of victims whom they
had sacrificed to the God Tanarus and examine their entrails for
auspices with as little compunction as you or I would feel in the case
of a ram or sacred chicken!
"Augustus had not attempted to put down Druidism; he had merely
forbidden Roman citizens to belong to secret societies or to attend
Druidical sacrifices. Tiberius had ventured to publish an edict
dissolving the Druidical order in France; but this edict was not
intended to be literally obeyed, only to withhold Roman official
sanction from any decisions arrived at or penalties imposed by a
Druidical council.
"The Druids continued to cause us trouble in France, though many
tribes now abandoned the cult altogether, and adopted our Roman
religion. I was determined, as soon as I had conquered Britain, to
strike a bargain with the Arch-Druid: in return for permission to
conduct his religion in Britain in the customary way (though
abstaining from any unfriendly preaching against Rome) he must refuse
to admit French candidates for initiation into the Druidical order and
must allow no British Druids to cross the Channel. Without priests,
the religion would soon die out in France, where I should make illegal
any Druidical ceremony or festival involving human sacrifice, and
charge with murder all who were found to have taken part in one.
Eventually, of course, Druidism would have to be stamped out in
Britain too; but that need not be thought about yet."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anent Druidism in the Isle of Man, we have Boetius, translated by
Alfred the Great, who had the same story as early Christian writers.
"Cratilinth, the Scottish King, A.D. 277," said he, "was very earnest
in the overthrow of Druidism in the Isle of Mon and elsewhere; and
upon the occasion of Dioclesian's persecution, when many Christians
fled to him for refuge, he gave them the Isle of Man for their
residence." He relates that Mannanan Beg "was the establisher and
cultivator of religion after the manner of the Egyptians.--He caused
great stones to be placed in the form of a circle."
Train, in his History of Man, refers to Mannanan Beg, Mac-y-Leirr, of
the first century, having kept the Island under mist by his
necromancy. "If he dreaded an enemy, he would cause one man to seem a
hundred, and that by Art Magic."
Mac-y-Leirr of the first century must have left a considerable
reputation behind him, because as late as the 1700s after Culloden
Moor, the North Uist bard Iain Mhic Fhearchair. aka John Mac Codrum
was being bugged by a bard from the Isle of Skye who called himself
Mac-a-leoir (Son of Sufficiency) and who came all the way to North
Uist to satirise MacCodrum, addressing him as follows:
Iain mhic Fhearchair MhicCodrum nan ròn
A thòisich air an droch ceàird,
Àrd éisg nan droch fhilidh
'S éiginn dhomhsa do thilleadh tràth.
(John, son of Farquhar MacCodrum of the seals,
who took up the evil trade,
arch satirist of the bad poets,
I must needs rebuff thee early.)
[Little seems to be known of Mac-a-leoir. The saying, 'S luath fear na
droch mhnatha air a' mhachair Uibhisteach (Fast is a man with a bad
wife on the plains of Uist) is ascribed to him, when on a very cold
day he remembered the wind-swept plains of Uist. The idea is that a
man who had a bad wife would be reduced, on account of scanty or
tattered clothing, to keeping himself warm by physical exertion.]
There is probably no connection, but the use of the same name (after
going through a dialect or two) is either coincidental or suggests a
forgotten story or reputation.
I picked the following off various sites.
King Finnan, 134 B.C., is said to have first established Druids there.
The Archdruid was known as Kion-druaight, (Head Druid) or
Ard-druaight. (High-Druid).
Plowden thought the Druids emigrated thither after the slaughter at
Mona; others declare Mona to have been an Irish Druidical settlement.
Sacheverell refers to Druidical cairns on the tops of hills, which
were dedicated to the Sun, and speaks of hymns having what were called
cairn tunes.
Train says, "So highly were the Manx Druids distinguished for their
knowledge of astronomy, astrology, and natural philosophy, that the
Kings of Scotland sent their sons to be educated there." He thought
that until 1417, "in imitation of the practice of the Druids, the laws
of the Island were locked up in the breasts of the Deemsters." The old
rude edifices of stone are still called Ti nan Druinich, or Druids'
houses.
McAlpine says that Druid in Manx means Magician.
-----------------------------------------------
As I own MacAlpine's Dictionary; an ancestor of mine thoughtfully
bought it in 1832 and I've had it since 1959, I looked this up. It
isn't true. MacAlpine does give Magician as a translation for Druid,
as well as sorcerer and philospher, but nowhere does he mention Manx.
However the dictionary I am working from does give the following
translations, all based on the root word for druid:
druiaght - incantation, fascination, magus
druiaghtagh - enchanting, sorcerer, romantic, wizard
druiaghtey - enchant
druiaghtys - conjuring, enchantment
I really feel I need to get a life...
Michilín
Michilín
various types.
As you can see, I am having more trouble with the English words than
the Manx and have been adding explanations of obscure English words.
cabbil - horses
cabbil foalley - breeding horses
cabbil-fuilleeaght - bloodstock
cabbil vaney - white caps (lit. white horses; boisterous waves)
cabbil vreckey - piebald horses
cabbil y ratch - field (in race)
cabbyl - horse, mount
cabbyl Arabagh - Arab (horse)
cabbyl assyl - mule
cabbyl assylagh - hinny, offspring of male horse and female donkey
cabbyl awin - hippopotamus (lit. horse of the river)
cabbyl bane - comber, long, peaking, foaming breaking wave; breaker
cabbyl beayn - stayer, horse specializing in longer distance races
cabbyl beg - hobby
cabbyl breck - piebald horse, dapple grey
cabbyl buigh - dun horse
cabbyl caggee - war horse, charger
cabbyl cairt - carthorse
cabbyl carriads - cabhorse, Victorian cab (taxi or hackney) horse
cabbyl cleaney - packhorse
cabbyl dhone - bay horse
cabbyl drid - trotting horse
cabbyl drug - dray horse
cabbyl faillee - hackney, Victorian cab (taxi) horse
cabbyl feieys - hunter (horse)
cabbyl glass - grey horse
cabbyl gorrym - dapple grey horse
cabbyl griagh - stud horse
cabbyl gyn brishey - bronco
cabbyl gyn caa - outsider
cabbyl jeeltit - palfrey
cabbyl keimyragh - pacer
cabbyl keylley - capercailie
cabbyl laadee - pack horse
cabbyl leaystagh - rocking horse
cabbyl lhiurey - thill horse, hitched to a carriage thill or shaft
cabbyl lhuir - shaft horse
cabbyl maidjey - wooden horse, hobby horse
cabbyl markee - hack
cabbyl obbyr - work horse
cabbyl oie - kelpie
cabbyl paggey - pack horse, a horse that carries goods on its back
cabbyl roie - race horse
cabbyl ruy - bay horse
cabbyl shee - fairy horse
cabbyl shesheree - work horse, plough horse
cabbyl spaainagh - jennet, a female donkey
cabbyl tappee - courser, spanker, hunter, racer, war horse; charger
cabbyl tayrnee - draught horse. a wagon horse
cabbyl toshee - trace horse
cabbyl ushtey - water horse, kelpie
cabbyl yiarn - motor cycle (lit. iron horse)
cabbylagh - horsy
Michilín
Michilín
surfaced - colporteur. In Manx it's "cadjer bibleyn", a peddler of
bibles, but the fact that English has a specific word for the business
rather fills me with awe.
I don't have the data handy, but my recollection is that English has
some 650,000 to 700,000 words, compared to French's 70,000 and
German's 85,000 words. Churchill was estimated to have known arounf
60,000 words; most of us manage with an understanding of perhaps
30,000 and use as few as 800 words to talk.
A vocabulary of less than 800 words is where the F word comes into its
own as in the phrase, "F*ck it, the f*cking f*cker's f*cked!"
When my children were small, with an eye on my own future, I kept
telling them, "Being poor means having to do everything the hard way
without getting any discounts" and I think the same is true of having
a minimal vocabulary.
If you find yourself using the F word along with "thingummy",
"whatsit", "you know what I mean", etc., then you are either an
Alzheimer's candidate or an intellectual garbage dump.
One of the pleasures of legal language is being able to express
yourself precisely and even better, knowing that those you are talking
to understand you precisely.
In the same way, a good vocabulary saves you hours of wasted time
having your auditors/audience trying to guess what you mean.
In Scotland, learning is revered and respected. Literate Scots are
proud that their compulsory Education Act is over 500 years old; an
intellectual goal not reached in England until a mere 125 years ago.
<smirking hideously>
.
Michilín
Michilín
In my search for further sources I foud this page
http://www.lang.ltsn.ac.uk/resources/keywordresources.aspx?keywordid=367
which led me to http://homepages.enterprise.net/kelly/index.html
(You have to go down the page to find an arrow to continue)
which leads to this - http://homepages.enterprise.net/kelly/smenu.html
which eventually led me here - Index of English - Manx Dictionary:
http://homepages.enterprise.net/kelly/LIST/DICTIONARY/dict/index.html
and here - Index of Manx - English Dictionary:
http://homepages.enterprise.net/kelly/LIST/DICTIONARY/dict2/index.html
Michilín
Lesley Robertson
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> schreef in bericht
news:424c385a.13148316@news...
>A most interesting English word that I have never heard before has
> surfaced - colporteur. In Manx it's "cadjer bibleyn", a peddler of
> bibles, but the fact that English has a specific word for the business
> rather fills me with awe.
>
> I don't have the data handy, but my recollection is that English has
> some 650,000 to 700,000 words, compared to French's 70,000 and
> German's 85,000 words. Churchill was estimated to have known arounf
> 60,000 words; most of us manage with an understanding of perhaps
> 30,000 and use as few as 800 words to talk.
>
other tongues... I'm willing to bet that "colporteur" started life in
France!
Lesley Robertson
Ian Morrison
> But that's because half the words in the *nglish language are nicked from
> other tongues... I'm willing to bet that "colporteur" started life in
> France!
Collins says:
"colporteur noun
a hawker of books, esp bibles
History: C18: from French, from colporter, probably from Old French
comporter to carry (see comport); influenced through folk etymology by
porter à col to carry on one's neck
colportage noun "
Not to be confused with Cole Porter, of course.
------
Ian O.
Rick
> Lesley Robertson wrote:
>
> > But that's because half the words in the *nglish language are nicked from
> > other tongues... I'm willing to bet that "colporteur" started life in
> > France!
>
> Collins says:
>
> "colporteur noun
> a hawker of books, esp bibles
> History: C18: from French, from colporter, probably from Old French
> comporter to carry (see comport); influenced through folk etymology by
> porter ą col to carry on one's neck
> colportage noun "
>
> Not to be confused with Cole Porter, of course.
>
> ------
> Ian O.
As I was about to say....
Ian Morrison
news:424C64BE...@alltel.net
> As I was about to say....
Great minds etc.
(you don't have to complete that saying, BTW)
------
Ian O.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Madra Dubh
(Forgive the top post)
Highlander, you are pouring the hours into this project.
I do hope you have plans to publish.
It would be a shame to waste all this good research.
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:424c3060.11106880@news...
Michilín
Oh for sure! I can see you have the buggers nailed!
Michilín
Madra Dubh
"Michilín" <mic...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:424c4ace.17872479@news...
Not a wasted effort though.
You've learned a good deal through your efforts.
And quite possibly put together some observations not made before,
especially in the area of Manx/Scots-Gaelic.
Michilín
Oh I agree absolutely, it was most interesting and I now feel I have a
real grip on what Manx is all about. I must say I now find it much
easier to follow than Irish.
Michilín