Halloween in Scotland
Constance Cooper
a year. As I recall, there wasn't really any type of Halloween
celebration. There was Guy Fawkes Day, which featured costumes and a
bonfire, but that was it. This was about 20 years ago.
Now I'm living in Edinburgh, and I see all this Halloween stuff in the
stores, pumpkin carving kits being sold, etc. Is this a recent
development? Do they have Halloween in England now too? Did I just
somehow miss it when I was in England before, or has this custom migrated
to the UK since I was here before? Or does Scotland have Halloween and
England not?
What should I expect to see on Halloween in Edinburgh? Do I need to lay in
a supply of candies to give to trick-or-treaters? Are there any special
events at pubs, etc. that I should know about?
Thanks,
Constance Cooper
Gordon....@comlab.ox.ac.uk
>I am an American, but when I was 8 years old my family lived in England for
>a year. As I recall, there wasn't really any type of Halloween
>celebration. There was Guy Fawkes Day, which featured costumes and a
>bonfire, but that was it. This was about 20 years ago.
Guy Fawkes Day is not the same thing though you probably know that.
The bonfire is supposed to represent the execution of Guy Fawkes, one of
the conspirators in the Gunpowder Plot to blow up James VI and I the
Parliament in London because of perceived anti-Catholicism. I doubt
that many people acknowledge this part of the history of November 5th,
except in Northern Ireland.
>Now I'm living in Edinburgh, and I see all this Halloween stuff in the
>stores, pumpkin carving kits being sold, etc. Is this a recent
>development? Do they have Halloween in England now too? Did I just
>somehow miss it when I was in England before, or has this custom migrated
>to the UK since I was here before? Or does Scotland have Halloween and
>England not?
It certainly seems to be in England now - with trick or treaters.
Scotland in the late 60s and 70s certainly had Halloween and we
used to have to earn our treat by singing or something. Dookin for
apples and other things went on - Oor Wullie an The Broons
portrayed these events.
Russell Craig-James
(as in Swedes) that we carved, not pumpkins! I believe All Hallows Eve is a
pagan festival that's as old as the hills in these parts.
Russ :-)
Gordon....@comlab.ox.ac.uk wrote in message
<717lnh$604$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>...
James Wallace
Russell Craig-James <rus...@craig-james.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
7181aq$poi$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net...
Charles Mcgregor
from cco...@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Constance Cooper) contains these words:
> I am an American, but when I was 8 years old my family lived in England for
> a year. As I recall, there wasn't really any type of Halloween
> celebration. There was Guy Fawkes Day, which featured costumes and a
> bonfire, but that was it. This was about 20 years ago.
> Now I'm living in Edinburgh, and I see all this Halloween stuff in the
> stores, pumpkin carving kits being sold, etc. Is this a recent
> development? Do they have Halloween in England now too? Did I just
> somehow miss it when I was in England before, or has this custom migrated
> to the UK since I was here before? Or does Scotland have Halloween and
> England not?
> What should I expect to see on Halloween in Edinburgh? Do I need to lay in
> a supply of candies to give to trick-or-treaters? Are there any special
> events at pubs, etc. that I should know about?
It is an ancient Celtic festival going back probably 2,500 years
or more. It was/is known as Samhain, Summers end, in Celtic mythology
all the ghosts of our ancestors are let loose for one night to
roam the Earth. America got it from Scots and Irish (and Welsh?)
settlers.
In Scotland the tradition is to give gifts to children who will
visit you, once they have 'performed'. They don't 'trick' you if
you do not give, as in America.
The 'performance' is some party-piece, singing, telling a joke,
that kind of thing.
Gifts are usually sweets, fruit and nuts.
Before the rampant commercialisation of confectionary
the traditions were to have the older children 'Dook fur aiples'
where the children had to bite apples floating in a basin of water,
once they had one by the teeth they could retreive and obtain it.
For younger children you had 'Forkin fur aiples', an easier task,
where the children stood on a chair and held a for handle in their
teeth, taking aim, they would release it into the basin of apples
and water and retreive and keep any apple they so skewered.
Another game was 'treacle scones' where children had to eat a
scone covered in treacle hanging on a piece of string.
Some people retain one or all of the above tasks.
Don't let them go with a gift if they haven't done
their party-piece(well not unless they are awfy wee).
regards
chic
Jakun
Charles Mcgregor wrote in message <199810290...@zetnet.co.uk>...
<snip>
>In Scotland the tradition is to give gifts to children who will
>visit you, once they have 'performed'. They don't 'trick' you if
>you do not give, as in America.
>The 'performance' is some party-piece, singing, telling a joke,
>that kind of thing.
<snip>
We call it "guisin" ("guy-zin") in NE Scotland. We were often given money
for our performances (in addition to sweeties etc) which would then be used
to buy fireworks the following week.
Charles Mcgregor
from "Jakun" <daa...@bigNOSPAMfoot.com> contains these words:
Indeed and in the West of Scotland it is known as 'Galoshin'. I think the
'guisin' in the North East must come from merging with 'guysing' where kids
used to make up a dummy of Guy Fawkes, to be burned later on Nov 5, and trundle
him around in a cart asking for 'a penny for the guy?' (A cynic might say
the act of merging two giving festivals in the NE would come naturally
to them ;-))
The Guy Fawkes tradition comes from England obviously.
regards
chic
A Myles
>The message <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>
>> We call it "guisin" ("guy-zin") in NE Scotland. We were often given money
>> for our performances (in addition to sweeties etc) which would then be used
>> to buy fireworks the following week.
>Indeed and in the West of Scotland it is known as 'Galoshin'. I think the
>'guisin' in the North East must come from merging with 'guysing' where kids
It's "guisin" in central Scotland on the East too, for what it's worth.
Andy
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hel...@western.wave.ca
"Jakun" <daa...@bigNOSPAMfoot.com> wrote:
>
> Charles Mcgregor wrote in message <199810290...@zetnet.co.uk>...
>
> <snip>
> >In Scotland the tradition is to give gifts to children who will
> >visit you, once they have 'performed'. They don't 'trick' you if
> >you do not give, as in America.
> >The 'performance' is some party-piece, singing, telling a joke,
> >that kind of thing.
> <snip>
>
> for our performances (in addition to sweeties etc) which would then be used
> to buy fireworks the following week.
>
In Fife we used to shout "I ye wattin ony guisers?" I always understood
that it was just because we were 'in disguise". Too simple? We had to
do the party piece too before being given money - nae sweeties!
I can also remember the fun? we had at Halloween parties at the church
where they had paper on the floor and scones dripping with treacle strung
up and we had to nibble at the scones. What a sticky mess!
In 1967 my sister was here in Canada, and her son and my youngest
daughter (both 4) had thought it was so great getting all that candy from
'trick or treating' that they started out on the rounds again the next
morning. They were quite upset when my next door neighbour brought
them home.
Helen
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Graham Benny
>
> Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> >The message <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>
>
> >> for our performances (in addition to sweeties etc) which would then be used
> >> to buy fireworks the following week.
>
> >'guisin' in the North East must come from merging with 'guysing' where kids
>
> It's "guisin" in central Scotland on the East too, for what it's worth.
>
And in Ayrshire as well.
Graham
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Anti-Spam e-mail address modification in operation!
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Jakun
hel...@western.wave.ca wrote in message <719ve4$2gj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>,
> "Jakun" <daa...@bigNOSPAMfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>> Charles Mcgregor wrote in message <199810290...@zetnet.co.uk>...
<snip>
> that it was just because we were 'in disguise". Too simple? We had to
> do the party piece too before being given money - nae sweeties!
Same up in Angus, Helen - although we were liberally showered with sweeties
too! (Making it a point to avoid the 'auld wifies' who gave you 'granny
sookers' or 'bilins', but making a beeline for their peers who were renowned
bakers, and would usually have wonderful treats such as treacle toffee;
coconut macaroons or chocolate crispies to offer, often still warm! ;-) )
> I can also remember the fun? we had at Halloween parties at the church
> where they had paper on the floor and scones dripping with treacle strung
> up and we had to nibble at the scones. What a sticky mess!
Whit? Nae dookin fer epples?!!
> In 1967 my sister was here in Canada, and her son and my youngest
> daughter (both 4) had thought it was so great getting all that candy from
> 'trick or treating' that they started out on the rounds again the next
> morning. They were quite upset when my next door neighbour brought
> them home.
Aww...the pair things! ;-)
Ian O. Morrison
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>Indeed and in the West of Scotland it is known as 'Galoshin'. I think the
>'guisin' in the North East must come from merging with 'guysing' where kids
>used to make up a dummy of Guy Fawkes, to be burned later on Nov 5, and trundle
>him around in a cart asking for 'a penny for the guy?' (A cynic might say
>the act of merging two giving festivals in the NE would come naturally
>to them ;-))
No, we've had this discussion before and I seem to recall that the word
"guising" is derived from "disguising" and has nothing to do with Guy
Fawkes.
I've lived in east, west and northern Scotland and "guising" is much
commoner everywhere, in my experience.
---
Ian O. Morrison
- http://www2.scran.ac.uk/staff/ianm/index.htm
Charles Mcgregor
from aj...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Myles) contains these words:
> Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
> >The message <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>
> >> We call it "guisin" ("guy-zin") in NE Scotland. We were often given money
> >> for our performances (in addition to sweeties etc) which would then be used
> >> to buy fireworks the following week.
> >Indeed and in the West of Scotland it is known as 'Galoshin'. I think the
> >'guisin' in the North East must come from merging with 'guysing' where kids
> It's "guisin" in central Scotland on the East too, for what it's worth.
> Andy
I knew that but it spoiled my punchline :-)
regards
chic
helenr
Jakun wrote in message <36388...@news1.tm.net.my>...
>
>hel...@western.wave.ca wrote in message
<719ve4$2gj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>In article <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>,
>> "Jakun" <daa...@bigNOSPAMfoot.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Charles Mcgregor wrote in message <199810290...@zetnet.co.uk>...
><snip>
>> In Fife we used to shout "I ye wattin ony guisers?" I always understood
>> that it was just because we were 'in disguise". Too simple? We had to
>> do the party piece too before being given money - nae sweeties!
>
>
>Same up in Angus, Helen - although we were liberally showered with sweeties
>too! (Making it a point to avoid the 'auld wifies' who gave you 'granny
>sookers' or 'bilins', but making a beeline for their peers who were
renowned
>bakers, and would usually have wonderful treats such as treacle toffee;
>coconut macaroons or chocolate crispies to offer, often still warm! ;-) )
Actually, the lack o sweeties didnae bother me too much since ma mither
had a sweetie shop. I literally sickened myself of chocolate the first year
that I was allowed to work behind the counter, but I still like 'bilins'
;-)
I can remember my Dad coming in to the shop, looking at me and saying,
"Is that yer bliddy jaws gaun agane?" or "By jings, there'll be nae profit
made
here, cause you're eatin it aa." Being a fly Fifer, my stock answer was
always
that Cadbury or Fry had just come out with a new chocolate bar and I had
to be able to tell customers whether it was good or not ;-)
>> I can also remember the fun? we had at Halloween parties at the church
>> where they had paper on the floor and scones dripping with treacle strung
>> up and we had to nibble at the scones. What a sticky mess!
>
>
>Whit? Nae dookin fer epples?!!
Oh aye. That tae. That came efter the dreepy, traicle scones so that the
mess got washed aff! Thrifty conservationists we were, even back then.
Helen
Alan Smaill
> No, we've had this discussion before and I seem to recall that the word
> "guising" is derived from "disguising" and has nothing to do with Guy
> Fawkes.
or disguising from guising?
A dictionary to hand has "guise" from old French guise, with one meaning
of dress, giving guiser.
> ---
>
> Ian O. Morrison
> - http://www2.scran.ac.uk/staff/ianm/index.htm
--
Alan Smaill, email: A.Sm...@ed.ac.uk
Division of Informatics tel: 44-131-650-2710
Edinburgh University.
Roderick MacDonald
> Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
> >The message <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>
And it's "guisin" in Galloway too.
No-one's mentioned dangling treacle scones from string and trying to
eat them with no hands.
Sausage rolls next week....
Rod
Douglas MacGowan
winter. Many of the livestock were not expected to live through the hard
winter, and were slaughtered at this time. This naturally led to an
abundance of fresh meat, hence a party and feast was initiated at this time
of year.
- Douglas
Charles Mcgregor
from "Douglas MacGowan" <macg...@sirius.com> contains these words:
> - Douglas
The Celtic festival Samhain is one of 4 festivals, one at each quarter.
It is properly in gaelic, Samhuinn which means hallow tide or season,
the feast of
All-souls. The souls of all the dead are said to be free on that day, Nov 1st.
Halloween is actually the night before where lanterns and such are
supposed to scare the souls that will emerge at midnight, away from
your house.
It is also used in gaelic for the entire month of November.
Wintering cattle would be run between two bonfires to 'protect' them.
regards
chic
jmaxwell
have been lost? I recently read a book on King James IV by a fellow called
Mackie(I don't recall his first initials). He stated that Scotland was rich in
traditions during James IV's reign. They were mostly related to the Roman church's
calendar, and as a result, most of the festivals were done away with at the time
of the Reformation. I suspect that a great deal of these festivals would have
contained pre-christian motifs and the like. One can only wonder, I suppose...
John Maxwell
Jakun
>
>Jakun wrote in message <36388...@news1.tm.net.my>...
>>
>>hel...@western.wave.ca wrote in message
><719ve4$2gj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>>In article <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>,
>>> "Jakun" <daa...@bigNOSPAMfoot.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Charles Mcgregor wrote in message <199810290...@zetnet.co.uk>...
>><snip>
> had a sweetie shop. I literally sickened myself of chocolate the first
year
> that I was allowed to work behind the counter, but I still like 'bilins'
>;-)
I'll bet you had a lot of envious pals at school! ;-)
Seriously though, I *do* mourn the passing of the wee old sweetie shops in
Scotland - nothing beats getting your "quarter" of sweeties poured out of a
big glass jar onto the metal scales and then into a wee poke! Somehow,
buying a plastic pack off the shelf at Asda or Tesco's just doesn't do it
for me....
(My biggest problem was always deciding what to buy - my favourites (to this
day!) wine gums or liquorice allsorts, or something like "midget gems",
which gave you 'more' for your money!)
> I can remember my Dad coming in to the shop, looking at me and saying,
> "Is that yer bliddy jaws gaun agane?" or "By jings, there'll be nae profit
>made
> here, cause you're eatin it aa." Being a fly Fifer, my stock answer was
>always
> that Cadbury or Fry had just come out with a new chocolate bar and I had
> to be able to tell customers whether it was good or not ;-)
Hehe...quick on the draw, even back then, huh?! ;-)
<snip>
>>Whit? Nae dookin fer epples?!!
>
> Oh aye. That tae. That came efter the dreepy, traicle scones so that the
> mess got washed aff! Thrifty conservationists we were, even back then.
That's what I like to hear! ;-)
hel...@western.wave.ca
I did ;-)
> Sausage rolls next week....
I can hardly wait!
Helen
>
> Rod
Ian O. Morrison
<sma...@dai.ed.ac.uk> writes
>"Ian O. Morrison" <I...@nmsdoc.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> No, we've had this discussion before and I seem to recall that the word
>> "guising" is derived from "disguising" and has nothing to do with Guy
>> Fawkes.
>
>or disguising from guising?
>A dictionary to hand has "guise" from old French guise, with one meaning
>of dress, giving guiser.
Yes, you're probably right. It did occur to me, after I had posted, as
always, that it was probably the other way round!
Perhaps a linguist could explain to me, in words of one syllable
preferably, why "guising" is dressing up and "disguising" is dressing up
to hide one's true identity? Shouldn't "disguise" logically mean
undressing? Is it the same sort of ridiculous English language anomaly
as flammable/inflammable?
Russell Craig-James
>Perhaps a linguist could explain to me, in words of one syllable
>preferably, why "guising" is dressing up and "disguising" is dressing up
>to hide one's true identity? Shouldn't "disguise" logically mean
>undressing? Is it the same sort of ridiculous English language anomaly
>as flammable/inflammable?
>
>
Orkadian origin I beleive, and then Scots:
Guise is a fashion of dress; a masque or masquerade according to Chambers,
The Concise Scots Dictionary. A Guiser is a masquerader, now esp. one of a
party of children who go in disguise from door to door offering
entertainment in return for gifts or money ( both when I was a kid, mmm
monkey nuts and apples); esp. at Halloween. Looks like "Geezer" may have
the same origins!
Roderick MacDonald
from hel...@western.wave.ca contains these words:
> In article <199810291...@zetnet.co.uk>,
> Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > The message <719n8p$icm$1...@scotsman.ed.ac.uk>
> > from aj...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk ( A Myles) contains these words:
> >
> > > Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > > >The message <3637d...@news1.tm.net.my>
> >
> > > >> We call it "guisin" ("guy-zin") in NE Scotland. We were often given
> money
> > > >> for our performances (in addition to sweeties etc) which would then be
> used
> > > >> to buy fireworks the following week.
> >
> > > >Indeed and in the West of Scotland it is known as 'Galoshin'. I think the
> > > >'guisin' in the North East must come from merging with 'guysing' where kids
> >
> > > It's "guisin" in central Scotland on the East too, for what it's worth.
> >
> > And it's "guisin" in Galloway too.
> >
> > No-one's mentioned dangling treacle scones from string and trying to
> > eat them with no hands.
> I did ;-)
Yes, I downloaded your message when I sent mine - we're not all on a
permanent connection you know!!
Regards
Rod
Charles Mcgregor
from "Russell Craig-James" <rus...@craig-james.freeserve.co.uk>
contains these words:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was a blinkin joke O.K. A gentle prod at the NE. I said as much
didn't I. Sob!
chic
Charles Mcgregor
from "Russell Craig-James" <rus...@craig-james.freeserve.co.uk>
contains these words:
> >Perhaps a linguist could explain to me, in words of one syllable
> >preferably, why "guising" is dressing up and "disguising" is dressing up
> >to hide one's true identity? Shouldn't "disguise" logically mean
> >undressing? Is it the same sort of ridiculous English language anomaly
> >as flammable/inflammable?
> >
> >
> Orkadian origin I beleive, and then Scots:
Oh yeah? Is this the same Orcadia which claims NOT
to be Celtic.
> Guise is a fashion of dress; a masque or masquerade according to Chambers,
> The Concise Scots Dictionary. A Guiser is a masquerader, now esp. one of a
> party of children who go in disguise from door to door offering
> entertainment in return for gifts or money ( both when I was a kid, mmm
> monkey nuts and apples); esp. at Halloween. Looks like "Geezer" may have
> the same origins!
regards
Scots
Charles Mcgregor
from Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > I did ;-)
So did I.
regards
chic
Roderick MacDonald
from Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > Yes, I downloaded your message when I sent mine - we're not all on a
> > permanent connection you know!!
> So did I.
Hail ZIMACS! Mighty God of Usenet!
Rod
hel...@western.wave.ca
Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> The message <71cgkm$gcn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
> from hel...@western.wave.ca contains these words:
>
> > In article <199810291...@zetnet.co.uk>,
> > Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > And it's "guisin" in Galloway too.
> > >
> > > No-one's mentioned dangling treacle scones from string and trying to
> > > eat them with no hands.
>
> > I did ;-)
>
> permanent connection you know!!
Aye richt enough, it has its advantages;-)
Cheers,
Helen
Charles Mcgregor
from Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> The message <199810302...@zetnet.co.uk>
> from Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > > Yes, I downloaded your message when I sent mine - we're not all on a
> > > permanent connection you know!!
> > So did I.
> Hail ZIMACS! Mighty God of Usenet!
> Rod
Now, now, let's just keep withint' family.
regards
chic
Marjorie
>
>[interesting history snipped]
>
> In Scotland the tradition is to give gifts to children who will
> visit you, once they have 'performed'. They don't 'trick' you if
> you do not give, as in America.
> The 'performance' is some party-piece, singing, telling a joke,
> that kind of thing.
>
although usually the folk didn't press the young ones too hard for their
performance. After we'd made the rounds of neighbors then we'd gather
at one family's home for a party. We also ducked for apples (see below)
usually in a large tin washtub...had to be on our knees with hands
behind our backs. I don't recall the 'forking apples' variation.
But I never heard of treacle scones. I do recall, however, one occasion
when we were challenged to eat apples dangling from strings; maybe a
variation on the above. Anyway, there was a whole line of apples
suspended from strings and a row of contestants. Two of them teamed up
on first one's apple and then the other's. They won and declared, over
the protests of the vanquished, that no one had said co-operation was
ruled out!
[Bracing for the Halloween invasion of Athens]
Marjorie
> Gifts are usually sweets, fruit and nuts.
>
> Before the rampant commercialisation of confectionary
> the traditions were to have the older children 'Dook fur aiples'
> where the children had to bite apples floating in a basin of water,
> once they had one by the teeth they could retreive and obtain it.
> For younger children you had 'Forkin fur aiples', an easier task,
> where the children stood on a chair and held a for handle in their
> teeth, taking aim, they would release it into the basin of apples
> and water and retreive and keep any apple they so skewered.
> Another game was 'treacle scones' where children had to eat a
> scone covered in treacle hanging on a piece of string.
>
> Some people retain one or all of the above tasks.
> Don't let them go with a gift if they haven't done
> their party-piece(well not unless they are awfy wee).
>
> regards
> chic
Marjorie
>
[snip]
> No-one's mentioned dangling treacle scones from string and trying to
> eat them with no hands.
>
>
> Rod
??? What about sausage rolls? Are they a part of Halloween in
Scotland?
Marjorie
Marjorie
>
[snip]
> Same up in Angus, Helen - although we were liberally showered with
>sweeties too! (Making it a point to avoid the 'auld wifies' who gave
>you 'granny sookers' or 'bilins', but making a beeline for their
>peers who were renowned bakers, and would usually have wonderful
>treats such as treacle toffee; coconut macaroons or chocolate
>crispies to offer, often still warm!
;-) )
Please enlighten me. What are 'bilins'
Is Halloween observed generally throughout the UK or primarily in
Scotland?
Marjorie
Roderick MacDonald
from Marjorie <ma...@frognet.net> contains these words:
> Jakun wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> > Same up in Angus, Helen - although we were liberally showered with
> >sweeties too! (Making it a point to avoid the 'auld wifies' who gave
> >you 'granny sookers' or 'bilins', but making a beeline for their
> >peers who were renowned bakers, and would usually have wonderful
> >treats such as treacle toffee; coconut macaroons or chocolate
> >crispies to offer, often still warm!
> ;-) )
> Please enlighten me. What are 'bilins'
Soor plooms et al
> Is Halloween observed generally throughout the UK or primarily in
> Scotland?
England seems to have adopted the substandard "trick or treating"
nonsense from America
Rod
Roderick MacDonald
from Marjorie <ma...@frognet.net> contains these words:
> Marjorie
The Witchcraft Act of 1735 contained a clause preventing the
consumption of pork and pastry comestibles on Hallowe'en, but since
the Act was repealed in the 1950s, sausage rolls have been a legal
foodstuff for cold and hungry guisers.
Some people believe that the Bridie was a cunning means of
circumnavigating the 1735 Act, as onion is well known (to the State
of California among others) to ward off bauchles and ghosties.
Now that my guising days are over, I prefer to keep the sausage rolls
for Bonfire night, but I expect to consume a few left-over monkey
nuts before the weekend is out.
Rod
hel...@western.wave.ca
ma...@frognet.net wrote:
> Jakun wrote:
> >
> [snip]
>
> > Same up in Angus, Helen - although we were liberally showered with
> >sweeties too! (Making it a point to avoid the 'auld wifies' who gave
> >you 'granny sookers' or 'bilins', but making a beeline for their
> >peers who were renowned bakers, and would usually have wonderful
> >treats such as treacle toffee; coconut macaroons or chocolate
> >crispies to offer, often still warm!
> ;-) )
>
> Please enlighten me. What are 'bilins'
Hard (boiled) candy. e.g. pan drap (pan drop - U.S. Scotch mint),
stippit ba (striped balls), horehound (much tittering as kids
when someone bought them!).
Helen
>
> Is Halloween observed generally throughout the UK or primarily in
> Scotland?
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
hel...@western.wave.ca
ma...@frognet.net wrote:
> Roderick MacDonald wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> > No-one's mentioned dangling treacle scones from string and trying to
> > eat them with no hands.
> >
> > Sausage rolls next week....
> >
> > Rod
>
> ??? What about sausage rolls? Are they a part of Halloween in
> Scotland?
I could be wrong (sometimes I am <g>) Marjorie, but I think he's
'puin oor leg'. Time will tell!
Helen
Pu the ither wan Rod! It plays Annie Laurie!
hel...@western.wave.ca
Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> The message <363A58...@frognet.net>
> from Marjorie <ma...@frognet.net> contains these words:
>
> > >
> > [snip]
> > > No-one's mentioned dangling treacle scones from string and trying to
> > > eat them with no hands.
> > >
> > > Sausage rolls next week....
> > >
> > > Rod
> > ??? What about sausage rolls? Are they a part of Halloween in
> > Scotland?
>
>
> The Witchcraft Act of 1735 contained a clause preventing the
> consumption of pork and pastry comestibles on Hallowe'en, but since
> the Act was repealed in the 1950s, sausage rolls have been a legal
> foodstuff for cold and hungry guisers.
Thanks Rod.You're a fount of interesting, obscure information.
Boy, I wish I'd been guisin at your house! Nobody ever gave me
a sausage roll :-(
> Some people believe that the Bridie was a cunning means of
> circumnavigating the 1735 Act, as onion is well known (to the State
> of California among others) to ward off bauchles and ghosties.
>
> Now that my guising days are over, I prefer to keep the sausage rolls
> for Bonfire night, but I expect to consume a few left-over monkey
> nuts before the weekend is out.
Ah weel, it's humble pie, nae sausage rolls, for me. Ah'm awa up
tae Opie's (an unlikely name for a Scottish butcher) an console
masel wi some o his delicious Forfar bridies an haggis :-)
Helen
Jakun
hel...@western.wave.ca wrote in message <71f5kv$380$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <199810311...@zetnet.co.uk>,
> Roderick MacDonald <r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> The message <363A58...@frognet.net>
>> from Marjorie <ma...@frognet.net> contains these words:
<snip>
> Ah weel, it's humble pie, nae sausage rolls, for me. Ah'm awa up
> tae Opie's (an unlikely name for a Scottish butcher) an console
> masel wi some o his delicious Forfar bridies an haggis :-)
You'll be glad to know I'm well envious of you, Helen - not only a Scottish
butcher, but one who sells *Forfar bridies* AND haggis?!!! *Sigh* Not much
chance of either hereabouts...guess I'll just have to wait till December!
;-)
David
(the Farfir loon)
hel...@western.wave.ca
You'll enjoy it all the more for the anticipation ;-)
Opie also sells Fry's Cream, macaroon bars, Penguins, chocolate
snowballs...OK, OK, I'll stop now so you can stop drooling!
Helen
P.S. Glad you enjoyed the "sweeties"!
Stephen Hamilton
Roderick MacDonald wrote:
>
>
> > Is Halloween observed generally throughout the UK or primarily in
> > Scotland?
>
> England seems to have adopted the substandard "trick or treating"
> nonsense from America
>
> Rod
What cultural arrogance! There is *nothing* substandard about our "trick or
treating" in fact it is becoming more and more realistic as the years tick
off. For example, when I was younger we'd have no fear whatsoever of
perverts, razor blades in our treats or anything else. Now however. . .I've
been doing my bit too. Having spent several years baiting the local weans
with candy, I've been working them up into a more pragmatic world-view by
startling them (last year I dressed up as MacP), then minor boobytraps (leg
catches and so on). This year it's barbed wire and crawling drill with live
ammo, and by next I'll have them ready to venture downtown in broad daylight
confident of their ability to ward off the natives.
America is no place for wussies.
Happy Halloween!
MacRobert
Alan Hardie
Douglas MacGowan wrote in message <01be0383$091dce60$57e586cd@macgowan>...
>I heard that the festival of Samhain was in honor of the beginning of
>winter. Many of the livestock were not expected to live through the hard
>winter, and were slaughtered at this time. This naturally led to an
>abundance of fresh meat, hence a party and feast was initiated at this time
>of year.
>
The word bonfire comes from bone fire where the bones or inedible parts of
the slaughtered beasts were burnt. It is almost certain that the tradition
of burning the Guy on a bonfire on 5th November and Halloween derive from
one and the same tradition.
------------------------------------
regards
Alan Hardie
Alan Hardie
jmaxwell wrote in message <3639121B...@netinc.ca>...
> I wonder what other festivals, and cultural traditions, particular to
Scotland,
>have been lost? I recently read a book on King James IV by a fellow called
>Mackie(I don't recall his first initials). He stated that Scotland was rich
in
>traditions during James IV's reign. They were mostly related to the Roman
church's
>calendar, and as a result, most of the festivals were done away with at the
time
>of the Reformation. I suspect that a great deal of these festivals would
have
>contained pre-christian motifs and the like. One can only wonder, I
suppose...
>
The persecution of witches in Scotland in large numbers (4500 as compared to
1000 in England with 5 times the population) is often thought to reflect the
zealotry of the Protestant Reformation in Scotland. It is certainly true
that the political ideology of the time equated witchcraft with "popery",
but it is as likely that the large numbers reflected the fact that there
were far more practising "witches" in Scotland in the 16/17th C. These
practices had been more or less ignored by the pre-Reformation Catholic
church and survived in a Scotland which was less affected by Anglo-Saxon,
Roman or even Celtic settlements than was England.
It is likely that they were not indulging in anything "Satanic" for the
simple reason that the practice of witchcraft pre-dates even the Celts and
derives from Wicca, the religion of the Bronze Age people who built the
stone circles (Stone Henge, Callanish etc).
------------------------------------
regards
Alan Hardie
Fog Brat
<a.hard...@which.net> wrote:
>The persecution of witches in Scotland in large numbers (4500 as compared to
>1000 in England with 5 times the population) is often thought to reflect the
>zealotry of the Protestant Reformation in Scotland.
It's pretty well established that the Prebyterian Kirk was responsible
for witch-hunting in Scotland. Plus, of course, England didn't get
King James VI until 1603 :) (which is not to imply that Elizabethan
witchcraft laws weren't draconian, mind you!)
>It is certainly true
>that the political ideology of the time equated witchcraft with "popery",
>but it is as likely that the large numbers reflected the fact that there
>were far more practising "witches" in Scotland in the 16/17th C.
You'll need to be very careful with the word "witch," as it had a very
definite meaning even into this time period. This isn't a word that
was tossed around in the religious and secular power structure,
because it was very highly charged. Witch-detection (at the time) was
considered almost a science. In addition, the Scottish outbreaks tend
to align quite well with political events, rather better than in the
rest of Europe.
An accurate definition of "practising witch" for this time period
would undoubtedly include some sort of consortation with the Devil, as
well as the presence of familiars, the Devil's mark, and so on. It was
easy to be accused...but this doesn't mean that the *definition* of
"witch" includes every sort of irrirtability!
>These
>practices had been more or less ignored by the pre-Reformation Catholic
>church and survived in a Scotland which was less affected by Anglo-Saxon,
>Roman or even Celtic settlements than was England.
And some pre-Christian deities and ideas were incorporated into the
Church. They weren't dummies about how to win converts. Besides, the
Highlands and Lowlands have very different witchcraft motifs anyhow. I
do, BTW, assume we're discussing Lowland/East Coast lore here.
>It is likely that they were not indulging in anything "Satanic" for the
>simple reason that the practice of witchcraft pre-dates even the Celts and
>derives from Wicca, the religion of the Bronze Age people who built the
>stone circles (Stone Henge, Callanish etc).
Malarky. You're mixing modern and historical definitions for your
convenience.
If you intend to discuss medieval and early-modern treatment of
witches, then it's best to use the definitions they used at the time.
Satanic pact could take a variety of forms; consorting with demons,
for example. Demons by this time included all manner of faeries and
pre-Christian deities...so, if you summoned, worked with, or alluded
to any of these beings in a mechanistic, goal-oriented way, that was
witchcraft.
IMO, the idea that any modern nature religion is a remnant of (or even
a descendant of) ancient paganism is unprovable at best (then again,
so is all religion). And that's as diplomatic as I'm going to get; it
all goes downhill from there.
-FB
"Atheists, by definition, make lousy witches."
-Me, 1996
Charles Mcgregor
from Stephen Hamilton <hota...@voy.net> contains these words:
> Roderick MacDonald wrote:
> Happy Halloween!
> MacRobert
Hi Steve,
I had great fun tonight scaring the shit out of them.
I downloaded scary Halloween music and sound effects from the
Web, we had the place only illiminated by candles. My wife
would let them in and then I would come through from the dining room
to the living room with the creak of opening door and horror organ
music reaching a crescendo at full Blast from my 80 watt speakers.
This was done with a slow funerial walk, staring wildly all the while.
I then said 'Welcome to our humble aboad, dost thou have some
entertainment for us?' in a deep ham actor voice with the scowl
and the piercing look, the lot.
We had about 40 of the wee buggers(and not so wee some of them).
As the evening progressed I became bolder and with the last group
of teenage girls (who were meant to be the spice girls) I was
a bit worried that I had gone too far cos one of them kept saying
'Oh Magod!, Oh Magod', however my teenage son came in later and
said that the girls had said the McGregor's house was 'pure dead
brilliant', so no irate parental visits afterall.
Happy halloween everybody.
regards
chic
Charles Mcgregor
from fog...@kezarcelts.net (Fog Brat) contains these words:
All this reformation stuff is irrelevant to the thread since Halloween
predates the reformation by millenia.
regards
chic
ironman
> > Is Halloween observed generally throughout the UK or primarily in
> > Scotland?
>
> England seems to have adopted the substandard "trick or treating"
> nonsense from America
>
> Rod
>
hello all......i'm a substandard american engaged to one of the most
beautiful souls alive today...she's glaswegian living in the westend
currently but will be moving here the first of next yr.....it amazes me the
pathetic attitudes of people the world over & their respective prejudices,
one to another...i adore scotland & find it absolutely enchanting, much
like my fiance, her family, & all that ive met so far.....but i find that
too many americans share the vice versa of your attitude towards
specifically scotland & the uk n general...u may say it's a small thing, to
the which i would reply, no shock here...small minds think along small
lines.....by the way....my understanding is that scotland tricks or
treats...would that suggest you just carelessly placed yourself lower on
the food chain than your rival englishmen, since according to you, they
adopted it from the <implied> "substandard" americans??? i doubt most of
your countrymen/women would concur (at least the ones that ive met). hope
to not ruffle too many feathers here....just an observation & an
exhortation to higher living/thinking....cheers~
--
The stone uncut is harmless, but ever the bore...
~ironman
Roderick MacDonald
Ooh, touchy!
If you really want to argue the merits of children dressing up as
ghosts and demanding reward on the basis of not tipping your
trashcans over, over the merits of kids dressing up as ghosts and
performing a poem, song, or some jokes in the hope of some nuts and
sweets, then I'm sure we could have an amusing but rather one-sided
discussion here.
Ask yourself "Which one is ritualised extortion, and which one is
entertainment?" and then ask yourself "Which of the two is therefore
substandard?"
Your understanding "that scotland tricks or treats" is wrong, and had
you bothered to read and follow this thread you would have realised
the difference between "Trick or Treating" and "Guising". Hopefully
you understand that difference now.
But if you see every comment on a comparision between American and
another culture as a threat to your Americanism, then I feel very
sorry for you. I only hope your Scottish girlfriend can give you a
wider sense of perspective. If she can't do that I'm sure she can
tell you where Newton Stewart is, and an air attack on my "den of
anti-American activity" could be scheduled for November 5.
Given the USAF's accuracy in these attacks, I will hopefully still be
able to see it from here, and it will save buying any fireworks.
Rod
Craig Cockburn
<r.mac...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>> specifically scotland & the uk n general...u may say it's a small thing, to
>> the which i would reply, no shock here...small minds think along small
>> lines.....by the way....my understanding is that scotland tricks or
Scotland doesn't trick or treat, that is an American custom. We observe
the older customs which were taken to the US by white settlers.
This may help a little:
Halloween
1785
Robert Burns
The following poem will, by many readers, be well enough understood; but
for the sake of those who are unacquainted with the manners and
traditions of the country where the scene is cast, notes are added to
give some account of the principal charms and spells of that night, so
big with prophecy to the peasantry in the west of Scotland. The passion
of prying into futurity makes a striking part of the history of human
nature in its rude state, in all ages and nations; and it may be some
entertainment to a philosophic mind , if any such honour the author with
a perusal, to see the remains of it among the more unenlightened in our
own.-R.B.
Yes! let the rich deride, the proud disdain,
The simple pleasure of the lowly train;
To me more dear, congenial to my heart,
One native charm, than all the gloss of art.-Goldsmith.
Upon that night, when fairies light
On Cassilis Downans dance,
Or owre the lays, in splendid blaze,
On sprightly coursers prance;
Or for Colean the rout is ta'en,
Beneath the moon's pale beams;
There, up the Cove,to stray an' rove,
Amang the rocks and streams
To sport that night;
Amang the bonie winding banks,
Where Doon rins , wimplin , clear;
Where Bruce ance rul'd the martial ranks,
An' shook his Carrick spear;
Some merry, friendly, countra-folks
Together did convene,
To burn their nits , an' pou their stocks ,
An' haud their Halloween
Fu' blythe that night.
The lasses feat , an' cleanly neat,
Mair braw than when they're fine;
Their faces blythe, fu' sweetly kythe ,
Hearts leal , an' warm, an' kin' :
The lads sae trig , wi' wooer-babs
Weel-knotted on their garten ;
Some unco blate , an' some wi' gabs
Gar lasses' hearts gang startin
Whiles fast at night.
Then, first an' foremost, thro' the kail ,
Their stocks maun a' be sought ance ;
They steek their een , and grape an' wale
For muckle anes , an' straught anes .
Poor hav'rel Will fell aff the drift ,
An' wandered thro' the bow-kail ,
An' pou't for want o' better shift
A runt was like a sow-tail
Sae bow't that night.
Then, straught or crooked, yird or nane ,
They roar an' cry a' throu'ther;
The vera wee-things , toddlin, rin ,
Wi' stocks out owre their shouther :
An' gif the custock's sweet or sour,
Wi' joctelegs they taste them;
Syne coziely, aboon the door,
Wi' cannie care, they've plac'd them
To lie that night.
The lassies staw frae 'mang them a' ,
To pou their stalks o' corn;
But Rab slips out, an' jinks about,
Behint the muckle thorn:
He grippit Nelly hard and fast:
Loud skirl'd a' the lasses;
But her tap-pickle maist was lost,
Whan kiutlin in the fause-house
Wi' him that night.
The auld guid-wife's weel-hoordit nits
Are round an' round dividend,
An' mony lads an' lasses' fates
Are there that night decided:
Some kindle couthie side by side,
And burn thegither trimly;
Some start awa wi' saucy pride,
An' jump out owre the chimlie
Fu' high that night.
Jean slips in twa , wi' tentie e'e ;
Wha 'twas, she wadna tell;
But this is Jock, an' this is me,
She says in to hersel':
He bleez'd owre her, an' she owre him,
As they wad never mair part:
Till fuff! he started up the lum ,
An' Jean had e'en a sair heart
To see't that night.
Poor Willie, wi' his bow-kail runt ,
Was brunt wi' primsie Mallie;
An' Mary, nae doubt, took the drunt ,
To be compar'd to Willie:
Mall's nit lap out, wi' pridefu' fling,
An' her ain fit , it brunt it;
While Willie lap , and swore by jing,
'Twas just the way he wanted
To be that night.
Nell had the fause-house in her min' ,
She pits hersel an' Rob in;
In loving bleeze they sweetly join,
Till white in ase they're sobbin:
Nell's heart was dancin at the view;
She whisper'd Rob to leuk for't:
Rob, stownlins , prie'd her bonie mou' ,
Fu' cozie in the neuk for't,
Unseen that night.
But Merran sat behint their backs,
Her thoughts on Andrew Bell:
She lea'es them gashin at their cracks ,
An' slips out-by hersel';
She thro' the yard the nearest taks ,
An' for the kiln she goes then,
An' darklins grapit for the bauks ,
And in the blue-clue throws then,
Right fear't that night.
An' ay she win't , an' ay she swat-
I wat she made nae jaukin ;
Till something held within the pat ,
Good Lord! but she was quaukin!
But whether 'twas the deil himsel ,
Or whether 'twas a bauk-en' ,
Or whether it was Andrew Bell,
She did na wait on talkin
To spier that night.
Wee Jenny to her graunie says,
"Will ye go wi' me, graunie?
I'll eat the apple at the glass,
I gat frae uncle Johnie:"
She fuff't her pipe wi' sic a lunt ,
In wrath she was sae vap'rin,
She notic't na an aizle brunt
Her braw , new, worset apron
Out thro' that night.
"Ye little skelpie-limmer's face!
I daur you try sic sportin,
As seek the foul thief ony place,
For him to spae your fortune:
Nae doubt but ye may get a sight!
Great cause ye hae to fear it;
For mony a ane has gotten a fright,
An' liv'd an' died deleerit ,
On sic a night.
" Ae hairst afore the Sherra-moor ,
I mind't as weel's yestreen-
I was a gilpey then, I'm sure
I was na past fyfteen:
The simmer had been cauld an' wat ,
An' stuff was unco green;
An' eye a rantin kirn we gat ,
An' just on Halloween
It fell that night.
"Our stibble-rig was Rab M'Graen,
A clever, sturdy fallow ;
His sin gat Eppie Sim wi' wean,
That lived in Achmacalla:
He gat hemp-seed, I mind it weel ,
An'he made unco light o't ;
But mony a day was by himsel',
He was sae sairly frighted
That vera night."
Then up gat fechtin Jamie Fleck,
An' he swoor by his conscience,
That he could saw hemp-seed a peck;
For it was a' but nonsense:
The auld guidman raught down the pock ,
An' out a handfu' gied him;
Syne bad him slip frae' mang the folk,
Sometime when nae ane see'd him,
An' try't that night.
He marches thro' amang the stacks ,
Tho' he was something sturtin ;
The graip he for a harrow taks ,
An' haurls at his curpin :
And ev'ry now an' then, he says,
"Hemp-seed I saw thee,
An' her that is to be my lass
Come after me, an' draw thee
As fast this night."
He wistl'd up Lord Lennox' March
To keep his courage cherry;
Altho' his hair began to arch,
He was sae fley'd an' eerie :
Till presently he hears a squeak,
An' then a grane an' gruntle ;
He by his shouther gae a keek ,
An' tumbled wi' a wintle
Out-owre that night.
He roar'd a horrid murder-shout,
In dreadfu' desperation!
An' young an' auld come rinnin out,
An' hear the sad narration:
He swoor 'twas hilchin Jean M'Craw,
Or crouchie Merran Humphie-
Till stop! she trotted thro' them a' ;
And wha was it but grumphie
Asteer that night!
Meg fain wad to the barn gaen ,
To winn three wechts o' naething ;
But for to meet the deil her lane ,
She pat but little faith in:
She gies the herd a pickle nits ,
An' twa red cheekit apples,
To watch, while for the barn she sets ,
In hopes to see Tam Kipples
That vera night.
She turns the key wi' cannie thraw ,
An'owre the threshold ventures;
But first on Sawnie gies a ca' ,
Syne baudly in she enters:
A ratton rattl'd up the wa' ,
An' she cry'd Lord preserve her!
An' ran thro' midden-hole an' a' ,
An' pray'd wi' zeal and fervour,
Fu' fast that night.
They hoy't out Will, wi' sair advice;
They hecht him some fine braw ane ;
It chanc'd the stack he faddom't thrice
Was timmer-propt for thrawin :
He taks a swirlie auld moss-oak
For some black, grousome carlin ;
An' loot a winze , an' drew a stroke,
Till skin in blypes cam haurlin
Aff's nieves that night.
A wanton widow Leezie was,
As cantie as a kittlen;
But och! that night, amang the shaws ,
She gat a fearfu' settlin!
She thro' the whins , an' by the cairn,
An' owre the hill gaed scrievin ;
Whare three lairds' lan's met at a burn ,
To dip her left sark-sleeve in,
Was bent that night.
Whiles owre a linn the burnie plays,
As thro' the glen it wimpl't ;
Whiles round a rocky scar it strays,
Whiles in a wiel it dimpl't;
Whiles glitter'd to the nightly rays,
Wi' bickerin', dancin' dazzle;
Whiles cookit undeneath the braes ,
Below the spreading hazel
Unseen that night.
Amang the brachens , on the brae ,
Between her an' the moon,
The deil , or else an outler quey ,
Gat up an' ga'e a croon :
Poor Leezie's heart maist lap the hool ;
Near lav'rock-height she jumpit ,
But mist a fit , an' in the pool
Out-owre the lugs she plumpit ,
Wi' a plunge that night.
In order, on the clean hearth-stane ,
The luggies three are ranged;
An' ev'ry time great care is ta'en
To see them duly changed:
Auld uncle John, wha wedlock's joys
Sin' Mar's-year did desire,
Because he gat the toom dish thrice,
He heav'd them on the fire
In wrath that night.
Wi' merry sangs , an' friendly cracks ,
I wat they did na weary;
And unco tales, an' funnie jokes-
Their sports were cheap an' cheery:
Till butter'd sowens , wi' fragrant lunt ,
Set a' their gabs a-steerin;
Syne , wi' a social glass o' strunt ,
They parted aff careerin
Fu' blythe that night.
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn") http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/
Port na Banrighinn, Alba. (Queensferry, Scotland) PGP key available.
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
Craig Cockburn
>you bothered to read and follow this thread you would have realised
>the difference between "Trick or Treating" and "Guising". Hopefully
>you understand that difference now.
>
differences between Scottish and American Halloween. I'll add this info to
the soc.culture.scottish FAQ, comments welcome.
The Celtic festival Samhain is one of the four quarter festivals.
In Gaelic it is Samhuinn which means hallow tide or season, the feast of
all-souls. The souls of all the dead are said to be free on that day, Nov
1st. 1st November was the first day of the Celtic new year and the
transition between old and new year was believed to set free evil spirits.
Halloween is actually the night before where lanterns (Gaelic: samhnag),
Hallowfires and such are supposed to scare the souls that will emerge at
midnight, away from your house. Samhuinn is also used in Gaelic for the
entire month of November. The name "Samhain" entered Canadian folklore as
"Sam Hain", the name of the guy doll which children would wheel round.
Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
1735 contained a clause preventing the consumption of pork and pastry
comestibles on Halloween although these days sausage rolls seem to a
popular treat for children - the act was repealed in the 1950s.
The children are invariably dressed up as something supernatural or spooky
and the entertainment usually consists of singing, telling a poem or joke
etc. They don't 'trick' you if you do not give, as in America. However,
after the showing of ET in the early 80s, the influence of American "trick
or treating" seems to have become more prevelant at least in England.
Halloween parties often consisted of various games, for instance
'Dooking fur aiples' where the children had to bite apples floating in a
basin of water, once they had one by the teeth they could retreive and
obtain it. For younger children you had 'Forkin fur aiples', an easier task,
where the children stood on a chair and held a fork handle in their teeth,
taking aim, they would release it into the basin of apples and water and
retreive and keep any apple they so skewered. Another game was 'treacle
scones' where children had to eat a scone covered in treacle hanging on
a piece of string.
Recommended further reading:
Tocher 7 (Autumn 1972) P201-207, P220
Tocher 15 (Autumn 1974) P241, P257
Published by the School of Scottish Studies, see [12.2]
See also "Halloween", a poem by Robert Burns (written 1785)
See [12.15] for further details of Halloween customs - some of these
migrated from the Celtic hogmanay of 31 October to the modern hogmanay
of 31 December with the change of calander.
Marjorie
>
> Roderick MacDonald wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > Is Halloween observed generally throughout the UK or primarily in
> > > Scotland?
> >
> > nonsense from America
> >
> > Rod
>
> treating" in fact it is becoming more and more realistic as the years tick
> off. For example, when I was younger we'd have no fear whatsoever of
> perverts, razor blades in our treats or anything else. Now however. . .I've
> been doing my bit too. Having spent several years baiting the local weans
> with candy, I've been working them up into a more pragmatic world-view by
> startling them (last year I dressed up as MacP), then minor boobytraps (leg
> catches and so on). This year it's barbed wire and crawling drill with live
> ammo, and by next I'll have them ready to venture downtown in broad daylight
> confident of their ability to ward off the natives.
> America is no place for wussies.
>
> Happy Halloween!
> MacRobert
Ye're a little behind the mark, MacRobert. In Athens last night, we had
a helicopter buzzing the main street with flashing lights and a
spotlight, herding the assembled revellers off into the alleys and
by-ways, while another chopper stood off to starboard in reserve. I
observed clots of them coming up my street before I turned off my lights
and retreated to an inside room, muttering..."I knew I should have left
town this weekend."... [NB this is an 'adult' party that gets out of
hand predictably almost every year.]
...not much sleep. Maybe I'll try Scotland next year...McGregors' house
sounds like fun. I remember doing that a few years back, and some of
the neighbor kids talked about it for weeks.
Regards,
Marjorie
bB
Charles Mcgregor
from Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> contains these words:
Craig, I did some web research last night, according to Brewster's Dictionary
of Follore which is on line, 'guiser' was a Scottish
Mummer at christmas time, so this is one tradition that has gone in
the other direction i.e. from yuletide to Halloween.
regards
chic
ironman
> Ooh, touchy!
>
> If you really want to argue the merits of children dressing up as
> ghosts and demanding reward on the basis of not tipping your
> trashcans over, over the merits of kids dressing up as ghosts and
> performing a poem, song, or some jokes in the hope of some nuts and
> sweets, then I'm sure we could have an amusing but rather one-sided
> discussion here.
>
> Ask yourself "Which one is ritualised extortion, and which one is
> entertainment?" and then ask yourself "Which of the two is therefore
> substandard?"
>
> Your understanding "that scotland tricks or treats" is wrong, and had
> you bothered to read and follow this thread you would have realised
> the difference between "Trick or Treating" and "Guising". Hopefully
> you understand that difference now.
>
> But if you see every comment on a comparision between American and
> another culture as a threat to your Americanism, then I feel very
> sorry for you. I only hope your Scottish girlfriend can give you a
> wider sense of perspective. If she can't do that I'm sure she can
> tell you where Newton Stewart is, and an air attack on my "den of
> anti-American activity" could be scheduled for November 5.
>
> Given the USAF's accuracy in these attacks, I will hopefully still be
> able to see it from here, and it will save buying any fireworks.
>
> Rod
>
.............::::::::::::::::_-_
& who's touchy!? first off ive read thru the thread & am also very current
on present day scotland on halloween...is it ure contention then that kids
n scotland r neither trick or treating or only gettn treats on a
performance?
u might try either re-reading wot i stated or acquiring better
comprehension skills...my point was not a defense of "americanism", as i
clearly stated my disappointment n americans that see scots & their country
(or any other culture) as ruddy & stuck back n time, to the which i would
agree we could use plenty of here n america as we border on arrogance &
then some due to our out-of-check pride n wot we regard as advancements as
a culture here....the obvious chip on ure shoulder didnt permit u to see
that i complemented ure great country & only took issue w/ ure attitude, as
well as anyone else's like ures the world over, towards "cultures" other
than ure(their) own....i admit maybe i came off a bit strong & it couldve
been taken, since n response to ure particular post, that i was assaulting
u specifically...my apologies for not being more concise...but i suspect
there would b little i could do to disuade u from wot appears to b a
prejudice against americans, the english, & god knows who else that might
not fit into ure convenient world of arrogance & pomposity....as for kids
trashing trash cans, et al...i now stand corrected on that point(did i make
that point?)...it would b ludicrous to think that anyone would b to blame
for scot lads'/lass' juvenile behaviour other than ures truly, good ole god
awful america....so, standing corrected before u now, my lord, this
american now will assume full responsibilty for all corruptible behaviour
of all children everywhere the world over, seeing as how otherwise they
would behave perfectly & w/o mischief, as u surely did n ure perfect
childhood of sainthood...hey...i have an idea....let's blame EVERYTHING on
america, that way not only can we take things sd out of context n our own
insecurities, but we can also continue our self-righteous denial that "if
it werent for...", we would b w/o blemish & could further our throne before
the earth...LOL<ohbrutha>
please, man.....come back to earth....u'll b missed i'm sure...but if uve
grown now endeared to ure perch, at least re-read my original post & try to
absorb a lesson to all humanity....otherwise we r never going to change
this planet....pretty amazing how substandards like myself can wring so
much out of a small debate like halloween, eh? maybe there is hope for us
all...god bless ure duress~ironman_-_
--
The stone uncut is harmless, but ever the bore...
~ironman
Society will often set the criminal free, but they will never forgive the
dreamer.
~Oscar Wylde
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds.
~Albert Einstein
Roderick MacDonald
from "ironman" <r_prod...@juno.com> contains these words:
<meaningless shite filter on>
> --
> The stone uncut is harmless, but ever the bore...
> ~ironman
> Society will often set the criminal free, but they will never forgive the
> dreamer.
> ~Oscar Wylde
> Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
> minds.
> ~Albert Einstein
<meaningless shite filter off>
Hey buddy - nice quotes, what happened to ure message?
Rod
Charles Mcgregor
from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
> In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
> Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
> >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
> >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
> I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
> in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
> family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
> When whoever-it-was originally suggested 'galoshin' I didn't see any
> posts providing other evidence for that word: in fact there were quite a
> few, like me, saying 'eh?' :-)
> Perhaps you shouldn't include 'galoshin' in the FAQ entry.
> The other info about the origins of Samhain is fascinating, though!
That was me David, and it is definitely what they call it here in Greenock.
Trust me, I've raised four kids here.
Of course I wouldn't hold to the spelling being correct, (or even claim
that there is a correct spelling), that's just the way it sounds.
Now my wife from Rutherglen says,.. she called it 'Guising' so it looks like
this usage does not extend to Glasgow.
I know most Glaswegians regard Glasgow as being on the West Coast although
most Greenockians view Glasgow as the far East. So to use the term 'West
Coast' may be misleading right enough, even though technically 'West Coast'
is still correct.
I have no idea how far inland or out or how far up and down the coast this term
is utilised, it may only be Inverclyde, i.e. Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow
Inverkip. My Daughter tells me someone she knows from Islay says it is used
there, this is intreguing since it raises the possibility of a gaelic origin.
One can certainly think of possibilities from the sound of it 'foreigners'
etc. If it is gaelic then it would be really interesting from a Wes..sorry
Inverclyde, perspective because they normally regard themselves as
out-Glasgowing, Glasgow, in terms of urban slang etc. We may have stumbled
on a wee cultural gem here.
Michael? Craig?
Anyone from furth of Inverclyde and Islay know of it's use?
Gordon Riddle should be able to back my Inverclyde claim.
I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
regards
chic
Alasdair Baxter
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> They don't 'trick' you if
>you do not give, as in America.
This is not strictly true. In the Scottish Highlands in the early
part of the century it was permissible for guisers to do tricks at
Hallowe'en. I have heard of a young woman being put between the trams
of a cart or "machine" and forced to run along the road with boys
pulling the vehicle. I have also heard of children rattling chains
outside houses since chains were supposed to be, in some way,
associated with the Powers of Darkness. Some children also played
"tican tacan on the windows". A large button was affixed to a piece
of cotton thread some 12 inches from its end. The end was fixed to
the window sash with a drawing pin. The other end of the thread was
used to make the button tap on the window. The idea was to get the
householder angry and chase the kids.
--
Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK. Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263
"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
.
Ian Stewart
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>The message <71ijdl$17d$1...@trek.squelch.localnet>
> from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
>
>
>> In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
>> Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
<<<Mostly snipped>>>
>> Perhaps you shouldn't include 'galoshin' in the FAQ entry.
>
>That was me David, and it is definitely what they call it here in Greenock.
>
>Now my wife from Rutherglen says,.. she called it 'Guising' so it looks like
>this usage does not extend to Glasgow.
>
>I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
>I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
Chic,
I didn't query it at the time but neither my wife (from the North side
of Glasgow) nor myself (Sou'side) had *ever* heard of the word -
"galoshin".
Both of us were "guisers" (not recently, I hasten to add).
That is also what they are called it in Lanarkshire where
we now live.
I had assumed when I saw that it was you who posted,
and knowing you had Greenock connections, that it was
a *local* expression. Didn't someone say it was also
"guising" in Ayrshire ?
- Ian Stewart
- Larkhall
- Scotland
>
>regards
>chic
>
>
Ian Stewart
>& who's touchy!? first off ive read thru the thread & am also very current
>on present day scotland on halloween...is it ure contention then that kids
>n scotland r neither trick or treating or only gettn treats on a
>performance?
>u might try either re-reading wot i stated or acquiring better
>comprehension skills
Bayou Wolf strikes again ?
f someone ever posts a translation of the following and feels the urge
to let me know about it, would they please fight it (the urge).
- Ian Stewart
- Scotland
The reason they call it the American Dream is because you
have to be asleep to believe it - George Carlin
I
hel...@western.wave.ca
According to the Concise Scots Dictionary:
Galatian: Galoshon: also in pl - 1. a play performed by boy
guisers at Hogmanay; a mumming play or entertainment at this
time (19-e20, C(entral) S(outhern Scots)
Do you suppose that this is the origin of your word chic?
Cheers,
Helen
In article <199811020...@zetnet.co.uk>,
Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> The message <71ijdl$17d$1...@trek.squelch.localnet>
> from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
>
> > In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
> > Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
> > >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
> > >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
>
> > I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
> > in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
> > family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
>
> > When whoever-it-was originally suggested 'galoshin' I didn't see any
> > posts providing other evidence for that word: in fact there were quite a
> > few, like me, saying 'eh?' :-)
>
> > Perhaps you shouldn't include 'galoshin' in the FAQ entry.
>
> > The other info about the origins of Samhain is fascinating, though!
>
> That was me David, and it is definitely what they call it here in Greenock.
> Trust me, I've raised four kids here.
> Of course I wouldn't hold to the spelling being correct, (or even claim
> that there is a correct spelling), that's just the way it sounds.
>
> Now my wife from Rutherglen says,.. she called it 'Guising' so it looks like
> this usage does not extend to Glasgow.
>
> I know most Glaswegians regard Glasgow as being on the West Coast although
> most Greenockians view Glasgow as the far East. So to use the term 'West
> Coast' may be misleading right enough, even though technically 'West Coast'
> is still correct.
>
> I have no idea how far inland or out or how far up and down the coast this
term
> is utilised, it may only be Inverclyde, i.e. Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow
> Inverkip. My Daughter tells me someone she knows from Islay says it is used
> there, this is intreguing since it raises the possibility of a gaelic origin.
> One can certainly think of possibilities from the sound of it 'foreigners'
> etc. If it is gaelic then it would be really interesting from a Wes..sorry
> Inverclyde, perspective because they normally regard themselves as
> out-Glasgowing, Glasgow, in terms of urban slang etc. We may have stumbled
> on a wee cultural gem here.
> Michael? Craig?
>
> Anyone from furth of Inverclyde and Islay know of it's use?
> Gordon Riddle should be able to back my Inverclyde claim.
>
> I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
> I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
>
> regards
> chic
John F. Eldredge
>If you really want to argue the merits of children dressing up as
>ghosts and demanding reward on the basis of not tipping your
>trashcans over, over the merits of kids dressing up as ghosts and
>performing a poem, song, or some jokes in the hope of some nuts and
>sweets, then I'm sure we could have an amusing but rather one-sided
>discussion here.
>
>Ask yourself "Which one is ritualised extortion, and which one is
>entertainment?" and then ask yourself "Which of the two is therefore
>substandard?"
In the Southeastern USA, where I have lived all my life, the "tricks"
part of trick-or-treating has been gone for decades, save for a few
rowdy teenagers. Halloween is an occasion for children to dress up in
fancy costumes and receive large amounts of candy. In my neighborhood
(in Nashville, Tennessee), the parents apparently take their children
to parties, as I have only had children come to my door once in six
years (and only a single group of them then). The door-to-door custom
still takes place in some parts of the city. Some northern cities,
most notably Detroit, have had problems for years with rioting and
looting on Halloween night, done by street gangs, but they are
bringing this under better control now. To my knowledge, there have
never been large-scale problems on Halloween in the Southeast during
my lifetime (I am 41).
--
John F. Eldredge -- eldr...@poboxes.com
PGP key available from http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/
--
"There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power;
not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson
Charles Mcgregor
from Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> regards
> chic
Right I checked dejanews and the only other person who disputed it
was Ian Morrison, whom I don't normally receive.
I did discover a mistake from last year, I'd forgotten we had some
posts on it then. I quoted my wife then as saying she had not
heard of 'Guising' until she came to Greenock and that she used
'Galoshin' in Rutherglen, this is wrong, I must have mis-heard
her, or she got mixed up. This is what made me think that it
was used in Glasgow too. Gordon Riddle posted last year that he
thought it was only in the Greenock area, belated, apology due
for this (that's two to him in a month).
regards
chic
Russell Craig-James
>>
>>Your understanding "that scotland tricks or treats" is wrong,
Unfortunately having spent the weekend in North Ayrshire I have to say that
Scotland does "Trick or Treat" all too well. Not a perty peice amongst the
over fed bairns.
The land of my childhood, I don't know it no more.
Russ
Gordon....@comlab.ox.ac.uk
>The message <199811020...@zetnet.co.uk>
> from Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
>
>> The message <71ijdl$17d$1...@trek.squelch.localnet>
>> from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
>
>> > In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
>> > Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
>> > >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
>> > >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
>
>> > I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
>> > in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
>> > family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
>
>> > When whoever-it-was originally suggested 'galoshin' I didn't see any
>> > posts providing other evidence for that word: in fact there were quite a
>> > few, like me, saying 'eh?' :-)
>
>> > Perhaps you shouldn't include 'galoshin' in the FAQ entry.
>
>> > The other info about the origins of Samhain is fascinating, though!
>
>> That was me David, and it is definitely what they call it here in Greenock.
>> Trust me, I've raised four kids here.
I can vouch for Chic on this one that galoshins (it was always plural to me -
like doing your messages) was the term in Greenock through the late 60s
and 70s when I was a lad.
>> Of course I wouldn't hold to the spelling being correct, (or even claim
>> that there is a correct spelling), that's just the way it sounds.
>
>> Now my wife from Rutherglen says,.. she called it 'Guising' so it looks like
>> this usage does not extend to Glasgow.
>
>> I know most Glaswegians regard Glasgow as being on the West Coast although
>> most Greenockians view Glasgow as the far East. So to use the term 'West
>> Coast' may be misleading right enough, even though technically 'West Coast'
>> is still correct.
>
>> I have no idea how far inland or out or how far up and down the coast this term
>> is utilised, it may only be Inverclyde, i.e. Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow
>> Inverkip. My Daughter tells me someone she knows from Islay says it is used
>> there, this is intreguing since it raises the possibility of a gaelic origin.
>> One can certainly think of possibilities from the sound of it 'foreigners'
>> etc. If it is gaelic then it would be really interesting from a Wes..sorry
>> Inverclyde, perspective because they normally regard themselves as
>> out-Glasgowing, Glasgow, in terms of urban slang etc. We may have stumbled
>> on a wee cultural gem here.
>> Michael? Craig?
>
>> Anyone from furth of Inverclyde and Islay know of it's use?
>> Gordon Riddle should be able to back my Inverclyde claim.
Who's this Riddle character? Is he related to Chic Magregir?
>> I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
>> I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
>
>Right I checked dejanews and the only other person who disputed it
>was Ian Morrison, whom I don't normally receive.
>
>I did discover a mistake from last year, I'd forgotten we had some
>posts on it then. I quoted my wife then as saying she had not
>heard of 'Guising' until she came to Greenock and that she used
>'Galoshin' in Rutherglen, this is wrong, I must have mis-heard
>her, or she got mixed up. This is what made me think that it
>was used in Glasgow too. Gordon Riddle posted last year that he
>thought it was only in the Greenock area
Yes, I remember being told that I was wrong.
>, belated, apology due
>for this (that's two to him in a month).
It's okay I am keeping a count.
>regards
>chic
Ian O. Morrison
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
<re use of the term "Galoshin">
>
>Right I checked dejanews and the only other person who disputed it
>was Ian Morrison, whom I don't normally receive.
>
Right, I checked the thread and
in article <199810291...@zetnet.co.uk>, Charles Mcgregor
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>>Indeed and in the West of Scotland it is known as 'Galoshin'. I think
>>the 'guisin' in the North East must come from merging with 'guysing'
>>where kids used to make up a dummy of Guy Fawkes, to be burned later
>>on Nov 5, and trundle
>>him around in a cart asking for 'a penny for the guy?' (A cynic might
>>say the act of merging two giving festivals in the NE would come
>>naturally to them ;-))
<and I responded>
>I've lived in east, west and northern Scotland and "guising" is much
>commoner everywhere, in my experience.
So, just to set the record straight (and, incidentally, to illustrate
chic's rather disingenuous misrepresentation of others' opinions), I
didn't dispute that the term "galoshin" existed, just that it was in
widespread use, even in the "West of Scotland".
I am rather saddened by the fact that the kids who come round the houses
in my neck of the woods seem to be utterly confused by all the guising,
Guy Fawkes and Christmas carol traditions, so that we get them regaling
us with songs on Hallowe'en (if they can't be bought off with fruit and
nuts in advance), chanting "penny for the guisers" (sic) for the
following week, then offering to "trick or treat" just before Christmas.
It is nice, though, that for all the media scare stories, Scotland is
generally safe enough for kids to wander round their communities in this
way.
---
Ian O. Morrison
- http://www2.scran.ac.uk/staff/ianm/index.htm
ironman
b right?
look all...i know ive pissed some of u (most of u?) off...which was never
my intention as i would rather b a peaceful part of the discussion(s) or
not b here...i probably used poor judgement initially, but as u can see, if
anyone has really read wot i sd to begin w/ & now this, i was only pointing
out a small pont that was pointing out(just happened to b on ure head,
Rod)...hehehe....i'm teasing mate so settle down =-)
anyway....not all americans r as arrogant as i as i'm sure the same is true
likewise...so this is my call for a truce, fair enuff? besides, i love
scotland & its people w/ all my heart...best wishes always~ironman
--
dreamer.
~Oscar Wylde
The stone uncut is harmless, but ever the bore...
~Ironman
Great Spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds.
~Albert Einstein
Russell Craig-James <rus...@craig-james.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in article
<71k2va$gao$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>...
Roderick MacDonald
from "Russell Craig-James" <rus...@craig-james.freeserve.co.uk>
contains these words:
> >>
> >>Your understanding "that scotland tricks or treats" is wrong,
> Unfortunately having spent the weekend in North Ayrshire I have to say that
> Scotland does "Trick or Treat" all too well. Not a perty peice amongst the
> over fed bairns.
> The land of my childhood, I don't know it no more.
> Russ
Well, I hope you told the wee buggers to sling their hooks unless you
got at least a limerick.
Rod
Charles Mcgregor
from hel...@western.wave.ca contains these words:
Yes of course, this must be right. I had already found a reference
to Brewster's Folklore Dictionary saying that 'Guiser' was the name
for a Scots Mummer at Yuletide and that the activity had transferred to
Halloween, so this fits in with the Scot's Dictionary definition.
It seems there were two forms of the word even in it's original
Yuletide setting, albeit one exclusively male.
One can't help wondering if the boys only version was to conteract
medieval machismo and an aversion to 'dressing up'?(the religious
reference would help there too). Maybe it was only boys who did
it then??
Both sexes use the word here, now.
Anyway.
Perhaps the entry in the Scots Dictionary should add 'still current
on South bank of lower Clyde' or some such.
I would normally defer to the dictionary definition, but since
the entry indicates that it was already a corruption of Galatian,
the spelling perhaps should be changed to Galoshin since the kids
here definitely use a 'shin' ending as opposed to a 'shon' ending.
The phonetic point of contention seeming rather to be whether
it should be spelled 'Galoshin', with 'o' as in 'fox' or 'Galoashin',
with 'oa' as in 'stoat'.
It's a pity about the non-gaelic root but there is still the
Celtic Connection via the 'Gal' in 'Galatians' of course.
So it wasn't completely off the mark
Thanks for your information, I'm sure Craig can ammend the
FAQ entry before including it.
regards
chic
> According to the Concise Scots Dictionary:
> Galatian: Galoshon: also in pl - 1. a play performed by boy
> guisers at Hogmanay; a mumming play or entertainment at this
> time (19-e20, C(entral) S(outhern Scots)
> Do you suppose that this is the origin of your word chic?
> Cheers,
> Helen
> In article <199811020...@zetnet.co.uk>,
> Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > The message <71ijdl$17d$1...@trek.squelch.localnet>
> > from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
> >
> > > In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
> > > Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
> > > >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
> > > >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
> >
> > > I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
> > > in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
> > > family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
> >
> > > When whoever-it-was originally suggested 'galoshin' I didn't see any
> > > posts providing other evidence for that word: in fact there were quite a
> > > few, like me, saying 'eh?' :-)
> >
> > > Perhaps you shouldn't include 'galoshin' in the FAQ entry.
> >
> > > The other info about the origins of Samhain is fascinating, though!
> >
> > That was me David, and it is definitely what they call it here in Greenock.
> > Trust me, I've raised four kids here.
> > Of course I wouldn't hold to the spelling being correct, (or even claim
> > that there is a correct spelling), that's just the way it sounds.
> >
> > Now my wife from Rutherglen says,.. she called it 'Guising' so it looks like
> > this usage does not extend to Glasgow.
> >
> > I know most Glaswegians regard Glasgow as being on the West Coast although
> > most Greenockians view Glasgow as the far East. So to use the term 'West
> > Coast' may be misleading right enough, even though technically 'West Coast'
> > is still correct.
> >
> > I have no idea how far inland or out or how far up and down the coast this
> term
> > is utilised, it may only be Inverclyde, i.e. Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow
> > Inverkip. My Daughter tells me someone she knows from Islay says it is used
> > there, this is intreguing since it raises the possibility of a gaelic origin.
> > One can certainly think of possibilities from the sound of it 'foreigners'
> > etc. If it is gaelic then it would be really interesting from a Wes..sorry
> > Inverclyde, perspective because they normally regard themselves as
> > out-Glasgowing, Glasgow, in terms of urban slang etc. We may have stumbled
> > on a wee cultural gem here.
> > Michael? Craig?
> >
> > Anyone from furth of Inverclyde and Islay know of it's use?
> > Gordon Riddle should be able to back my Inverclyde claim.
> >
> > I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
> > I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
> >
Fog Brat
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
<snipped meandering>
>All this reformation stuff is irrelevant to the thread since Halloween
>predates the reformation by millenia.
Agreed (though I'm not convinced I started this). Witches don't have
much to do with Halloween, anyhow. Just got one of my pet peeves
prodded, that's all. I just *hate* it when that happens...apologies.
-FB
Lachie Macquarie
>The message <71ijdl$17d$1...@trek.squelch.localnet>
> from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
>
>
>> In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
>> Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
>> >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
>> >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
>
>> I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
>> in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
>> family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
>
>Gordon Riddle should be able to back my Inverclyde claim.
>
>I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
>I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
>
>regards
>chic
>
>
>
--
Lachie Macquarie, Bod an Deamhain I wish.
Lachie Macquarie
<d...@trek.squelch.localnet> writes
>In article <199811020...@zetnet.co.uk>,
>Charles Mcgregor <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>The message <71ijdl$17d$1...@trek.squelch.localnet>
>> from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
>>
>>> In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
>>> Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
>>> >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
>>> >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
>>
>>> I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
>>> in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
>>> family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
>>
>>> posts providing other evidence for that word: in fact there were quite a
>>> few, like me, saying 'eh?' :-)
>>
>>> Perhaps you shouldn't include 'galoshin' in the FAQ entry.
>>
>>Trust me, I've raised four kids here.
>
>Sorry, I'd thought it was one of the USAns or something that had come up with
>it as some half-remembered guesstimate. Well, you live and learn :-)
>
>
>>Now my wife from Rutherglen says,.. she called it 'Guising' so it looks like
>>this usage does not extend to Glasgow.
>
>
>
>
>>I know most Glaswegians regard Glasgow as being on the West Coast although
>>most Greenockians view Glasgow as the far East. So to use the term 'West
>>Coast' may be misleading right enough, even though technically 'West Coast'
>>is still correct.
>
>than that. Yep, I was so far west of Glasgow, I had to travel via 'Jupiter' ;-)
>
Well I was via Saturn, sometimes.
>Now, I can't actually remember much of that far back, so I suppose I only
>have my recollections of my mum calling it 'guising' as I grew older, but
>like I said, she's from Glasgow, so probably wouldn't have used any other
>term.
>
>
>
>>I have no idea how far inland or out or how far up and down the coast this term
>>is utilised, it may only be Inverclyde, i.e. Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow
>>Inverkip. My Daughter tells me someone she knows from Islay says it is used
>>there, this is intreguing since it raises the possibility of a gaelic origin.
>>One can certainly think of possibilities from the sound of it 'foreigners'
>>etc. If it is gaelic then it would be really interesting from a Wes..sorry
>>Inverclyde, perspective because they normally regard themselves as
>>out-Glasgowing, Glasgow, in terms of urban slang etc. We may have stumbled
>>on a wee cultural gem here.
>
>It'd be interesting to find out for sure, but maybe we should define 'west
>coast' as regards this FAQ entry..
>
>
>
>>I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
>>I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
>
>There were 2 or 3, I think, querying the 'galoshin' word.
>(Your ISP is the same as mine, FWIW..)
>
>
>
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Dave.
dil...@nospam.hotmail.com
> Ah weel, it's humble pie, nae sausage rolls, for me. Ah'm awa up
> tae Opie's (an unlikely name for a Scottish butcher) an console
> masel wi some o his delicious Forfar bridies an haggis :-)
Helen, does he also serve up Lorne Sausages and real black pudding? We
can't get those delecacies here, and the time I had real square sausage
and black pudding was in Adelaide, had all the fogotten tastes of
boy-hood in them! :-)
--
Erismor OUI 1.9 Beta 4
Gordon....@comlab.ox.ac.uk
>In article <199811020...@zetnet.co.uk>, Charles Mcgregor
>>> >
>>> >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
>>> >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
>>> >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
>>
>>> I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
>>> in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
>>> family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
>>
>>Gordon Riddle should be able to back my Inverclyde claim.
>>
>>I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
>>
Isn't Dunoon in America? Or have they shipped it back to the Clyde?
Russell Craig-James
loaded way flu!
Russ :-)
Roderick MacDonald wrote in message <199811021...@zetnet.co.uk>...
Craig Cockburn
<d...@trek.squelch.localnet> writes
>>door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
>>entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
>
>I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
>in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
>family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
>
>posts providing other evidence for that word: in fact there were quite a
>few, like me, saying 'eh?' :-)
>
Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children
going door to door "guising" (or "Galoshin" on the south bank of the
lower Clyde)
Craig Cockburn
>>you bothered to read and follow this thread you would have realised
>>the difference between "Trick or Treating" and "Guising". Hopefully
>>you understand that difference now.
>>
>differences between Scottish and American Halloween. I'll add this info to
>the soc.culture.scottish FAQ, comments welcome.
>
As a result of that posting, I got quite a bit of feedback - here's an
amended version which should appear in the 30 Nov edition of the FAQ.
[12.19] Halloween
The Celtic festival Samhain is one of the four quarter festivals.
In Gaelic it is Samhuinn which means hallow tide or season, the feast of
all-souls. The souls of all the dead are said to be free on that day,
1st November. 1st November was the first day of the Celtic new year and
the transition between old and new year was believed to set free evil
spirits which would visit your house.
Halloween is actually the night before where lanterns (Gaelic: samhnag),
Hallowfires and such are supposed to scare the souls that will emerge at
midnight, away from your house. Samhuinn is also used in Gaelic for the
entire month of November. The name "Samhain" entered Canadian folklore
as "Sam Hain", the name of the guy doll which children would wheel
round.
Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children
going door to door "guising" (or "Galoshin" on the south bank of the
lower Clyde) dressing up and offering entertainment of various sorts in
return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of 1735 contained a clause
preventing the consumption of pork and pastry comestibles on Halloween
although these days sausage rolls seem to a popular treat for children -
the act was repealed in the 1950s.
The children are invariably dressed up as something supernatural or
spooky and the entertainment usually consists of singing, telling a poem
or joke etc. They don't 'trick' you if you do not give, as in America.
However, after the showing of ET in the early 80s, the influence of
American "trick or treating" seems to have become more prevelant at
least in England. Hollowed out turnips with candles in them are
sometimes displayed or carried. Note that many children in America do
not 'trick' either.
Halloween parties often consisted of various games, for instance
'Dooking fur aiples' where the children had to bite apples floating in a
basin of water, once they had one by the teeth they could retreive and
obtain it. Sometimes flour would be sprinkled on the surface of the
water.
For younger children a more modern game is 'Forkin fur aiples', an
easier task, where the children stood on a chair and held a fork handle
in their teeth, taking aim, they would release it into the basin of
apples and water and retreive and keep any apple they so skewered.
Another game was 'treacle scones' where children had to eat a scone
covered in treacle hanging on a piece of string.
One custom associated with Halloween in the Western Isles was to put two
large nuts in the fire. These were supposed to represent yourself and
your intended spouse. If the nuts jumped together when they warmed up
then this was deemed to be a good omen, but if they jumped apart then it
was time to look for someone else!
See [12.15] for further details of Halloween customs - some of these
migrated from the Celtic hogmanay of 31 October to the modern hogmanay
of 31 December with the change from the Celtic calander to the modern
calendar. However, according to Brewster's Dictionary of Folklore which
is on line, 'guiser' was a Scottish Mummer at Christmas time, so this
is one tradition that has gone in the other direction i.e. from
yuletide to Halloween.
Further info
------------
Recommended further reading:
Tocher 7 (Autumn 1972) P201-207, P220
Tocher 15 (Autumn 1974) P241, P257
Published by the School of Scottish Studies, see [12.2]
See also "Halloween", a poem by Robert Burns (written 1785)
Ian Stewart
>In <XyCChKAt...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk>, Lachie Macquarie <Lac...@lachiemacq.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>In article <199811020...@zetnet.co.uk>, Charles Mcgregor
>><chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>>>> >
>>>> >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
>>>> >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
>>>> >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
>>>
>>>> I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
>>>> in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
>>>> family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
>>>
>>>Anyone from furth of Inverclyde and Islay know of it's use?
>>>Gordon Riddle should be able to back my Inverclyde claim.
>>>
>>>I did not see any other queries on the word other than your own.
>>>I'll check dejanews in case my ISP is acting up.
>>>
>>Dunoon it is guising, where's Greenock?
>
>Isn't Dunoon in America? Or have they shipped it back to the Clyde?
No, no, no, it was America whit wis in Dunoon and they canni ship it
back 'cos they never took it away !
In fact, they never took a lot of stuff away. Just threw it over the
side o' the dry dock inti the nice clean watter.
Noo we're feart tae disturb it 'cos we don't know what it is that's in
a' the barrels an' stuff.
An absolutely disguisin state of affairs, makes ye galoshin angry.
Charles Mcgregor
from jo...@gelsalba.demon.co.uk (John Ewing) contains these words:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:02:50 GMT, Charles Mcgregor
> <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >The message <71ijdl$17d$1...@trek.squelch.localnet>
> > from d...@trek.squelch.localnet (David Marsh) contains these words:
> >
> >
> >> In article <ogSzGSAT...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
> >> Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Halloween customs in Scotland these days consist chiefly of children going
> >> >door to door "guising" (West Coast: "Galoshin") - dressed up and offering
> >> >entertainment of various sorts in return for gifts. The Witchcraft Act of
> >
> >> I've never heard guising called 'galoshin', and I lived in various places
> >> in west-central Scotland when I was growing up. And my mum's side of the
> >> family are from Glasgow too, FWIW..
> >
> [snip]
> >That was me David, and it is definitely what they call it here in Greenock.
> >Trust me, I've raised four kids here.
> >Of course I wouldn't hold to the spelling being correct, (or even claim
> >that there is a correct spelling), that's just the way it sounds.
> [snip]
> >I have no idea how far inland or out or how far up and down the coast this term
> >is utilised, it may only be Inverclyde, i.e. Greenock, Gourock, Port Glasgow
> >Inverkip.
> Just to throw in my groat's worth - I'm originally from Gourock, and
> I'd never heard of 'galoshing' until I read this thread. I've always
> known the tradition as 'guising'. It may be peculiar to Greenock;
> certain other words and phrases seem to be.
> Regards,
> John
> --
> John S. Ewing
> Glaschu / Glasgow
> Alba / Scotland
My wife teaches in Port Glasgow and assures me Galoshin is used there.
Technically, our estate is in Gourock although it is on the border with
Greenock, it is used here, My boy goes to Ardgowan primary in the centre
of Greenock and they use it there, I asked him.
I will of course, take your word for it that Gourock, more centrally,
does not use it, although it is a little surprising from the
geography I think you'll agree.
For those who do not know, Gourock (approx 10,000) is the most WESTERLY
of the three conjoined towns, i.e. the furthest away from Glasgow,
the other two being Greenock (Approx 50,000) and Port Glasgow (Approx
20,000). One explanation could be the number of incoming
professionals and retirals to Gourock???
I'm afraid Inverkip (Approx 2,000) was a similar 'geographically
based' assumption that due to your post should now await confirmation
before inclusion.
So South bank of Lower Clyde cannot be used eh?
The FAQ will just have to list Greenock and Port Glasgow then.
Fascinating, when I first posted this I was expecting 'same here'
posts from all over, and instead it looks like we have stumbled on the
very last outposts of a word which was once in common use.
Well, Well.
regards
chic
Charles Mcgregor
from jo...@gelsalba.demon.co.uk (John Ewing) contains these words:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:50:02 GMT, Charles Mcgregor
> <chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> [snip]
> >My wife teaches in Port Glasgow and assures me Galoshin is used there.
> >Technically, our estate is in Gourock although it is on the border with
> >Greenock, it is used here, My boy goes to Ardgowan primary in the centre
> >of Greenock and they use it there, I asked him.
> >I will of course, take your word for it that Gourock, more centrally,
> >does not use it, although it is a little surprising from the
> >geography I think you'll agree.
> [snip]
> > One explanation could be the number of incoming
> >professionals and retirals to Gourock???
> No such influence when I lived there - I left over twenty years ago. I
> suppose it is possible that 'galoshin' is used in Gourock now.
Well, possibly, but all evidence seems to suggest that we are looking
at a shrinking usage here so any reversal I suggest would be
unlikely.
regards
chic
Gordon....@comlab.ox.ac.uk
>On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:50:02 GMT, Charles Mcgregor
><chi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>My wife teaches in Port Glasgow and assures me Galoshin is used there.
>>Technically, our estate is in Gourock although it is on the border with
>>Greenock, it is used here, My boy goes to Ardgowan primary in the centre
>>of Greenock and they use it there, I asked him.
>>I will of course, take your word for it that Gourock, more centrally,
>>does not use it, although it is a little surprising from the
>>geography I think you'll agree.
>
>[snip]
>
>> One explanation could be the number of incoming
>>professionals and retirals to Gourock???
>
>No such influence when I lived there - I left over twenty years ago. I
>suppose it is possible that 'galoshin' is used in Gourock now.
Theer was a letter in The Guardian yesterday (Thursday) from a guy
with an address in Glasgow, in reply to someone who'd claimed Halloween
was just another American invention, who said that guisin and galoshan
(his spelling) was a long standing phenomenon in Scotland. I got the
impression that he meant in Glasgow and he claimed this from experience
of about 40 years.
So that's me, Chic, and a guy who writes leters to The Guardian.
Gordon
Ian O. Morrison
<chi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>Well, possibly, but all evidence seems to suggest that we are looking
>at a shrinking usage here so any reversal I suggest would be
>unlikely.
There was a letter in the "Guardian" yesterday (5th November) which
mentioned use of the word "galoshan" in the Glasgow area. It might not
be quite dead yet.
---
Ian O. Morrison
- Play with tigers, you get covered in yellow hair - Duckman
- http://www2.scran.ac.uk/staff/ianm/index.htm
theblue
the kids are busy as they can be working of our holidays information pages -
they want to cover all the holidays 'in the world.' Of course that's
impossible, but we've moved along on the American ones. We are interested in
legends now - anyone know a good legend????
maggieblue
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/1807/
Marjorie
>
[snip]
>
> Well, possibly, but all evidence seems to suggest that we are
>looking at a shrinking usage here so any reversal I suggest would be
> unlikely.
>
> chic
Alright, I've just baked my Halloween pumpkin into pies and was cutting
up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper. I
found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order to
put a candle inside it?
Pumpkins are much softer and besides there is all that soft bit with the
seeds in the middle that one can scoop out. Is there anyone on this
n.g. who has actually carved one of those things (neeps) for Halloween?
If so, how did you do it?
Any idea how long that has/had been part of the Halloween tradition?
I was reading in Dickinson's History of Scotland this week that root
crops were not common in Scotland "before the 18th century". ??? Can
anyone confirm or refute that? Or did he merely mean not in sufficient
amount to support livestock? [This was in context of the habit of
slaughtering cows in the fall because there was not enough hay to feed
them through the winter.]
Marjorie's Pumpkin Pie
1.5 c. cooked pumpkin or squash (haven't tried neeps - prob'ly too
strong)
1.5 c. evaporated milk or medium cream
6 tbsp. brown sugar
2 tbsp. white sugar
1/2 tsp. salt
1 tsp. cinnamon
1/2 tsp. ginger
1/8 tsp. cloves
1/4 c. light molasses
1/4 c. dark (Karo) syrup (golden syrup in UK would work)
3 slightly beaten eggs (I beat them fairly vigorously with fork)
1 tsp. vanilla or 2 tbsp. rum (NB. Hamilton variation is Talisker I
suppose)
Make a single pie crust to your favorite recipe. Pour this filling in
and bake at 425 F. (sorry, I don't remember what that is in UK terms -
med. hot?) for 45-55 minutes. Pie is done when knife blade comes out
clean. This will make one deep-dish 9 inch pie or two 7-8 inch pies. I
usually double it and make one 9 inch and two 8 inch pies. So much
better than using a 'store-bought' filling! Enjoy.
Regards,
Marjorie
Jakun
Marjorie wrote in message <36462C...@frognet.net>...
<snip>
>Alright, I've just baked my Halloween pumpkin into pies and was cutting
>up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper. I
>found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order to
>put a candle inside it?
Cut the top off and then howk away with something sharp! ;-) Takes forever,
but as kids we thoroughly enjoyed doing it! (As an aside, I seem to
remember the neep always gave off an awful smell whenever a lit candle was
placed inside and the top replaced.) My father was always the popular one
at that time of year, due to the massive neeps he grew in his 'plot' (=
'allotment' in Forfar!).
BTW - do you happen to know the etymology of 'rutabaga'?
>Pumpkins are much softer and besides there is all that soft bit with the
>seeds in the middle that one can scoop out. Is there anyone on this
>n.g. who has actually carved one of those things (neeps) for Halloween?
>If so, how did you do it?
Guilty as charged - see above! ;-)
>Any idea how long that has/had been part of the Halloween tradition?
<snip>
No idea, sorry.
David
seamus....@nowhere.com
Townsend, thereafter known as 'turnip' Townsend, in the mid-1700's.
SC
On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 14:22:56 +0800, "Jakun" <daa...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>
snip
helenr
Jakun wrote in message <36468...@news.tm.net.my>...
>
>Marjorie wrote in message <36462C...@frognet.net>...
>
><snip>
>>Alright, I've just baked my Halloween pumpkin into pies and was cutting
>>up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper. I
>>found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order to
>>put a candle inside it?
>
>Cut the top off and then howk away with something sharp! ;-) Takes
forever,
>but as kids we thoroughly enjoyed doing it! (As an aside, I seem to
>remember the neep always gave off an awful smell whenever a lit candle was
>placed inside and the top replaced.) My father was always the popular one
>at that time of year, due to the massive neeps he grew in his 'plot' (=
>'allotment' in Forfar!).
You're right about that David. Definitely not a job for weaklings! It was
fun though ;-) You're also right about the smell!
Nowadays, when I cut up turnip for lentil soup (mmmmm delicious), it's
a real production and often requires the use of a meat hammer on a
very sharp knife!!
>BTW - do you happen to know the etymology of 'rutabaga'?
According to my dictionary (The Standard College Dictionary), 'rutabaga'
is also known as 'swedish turnip' and is derived from Swedish dialect
"rotabagge". According to my Mother (I spoke to her this morning) "swedes
are the best, but they need a wee nip o frost."
>>Pumpkins are much softer and besides there is all that soft bit with the
>>seeds in the middle that one can scoop out. Is there anyone on this
>>n.g. who has actually carved one of those things (neeps) for Halloween?
>>If so, how did you do it?
>
>Guilty as charged - see above! ;-)
>
>>Any idea how long that has/had been part of the Halloween tradition?
><snip>
>
>No idea, sorry.
No, but my Mother (born in 1915) carved them as a child too.
Helen
The Sheldons
Jakun wrote:
> Marjorie wrote in message <36462C...@frognet.net>...
>
> <snip>
> >Alright, I've just baked my Halloween pumpkin into pies and was cutting
> >up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper. I
> >found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order to
> >put a candle inside it?
>
> Cut the top off and then howk away with something sharp! ;-) Takes forever,
> but as kids we thoroughly enjoyed doing it! (As an aside, I seem to
> remember the neep always gave off an awful smell whenever a lit candle was
> placed inside and the top replaced.) My father was always the popular one
> at that time of year, due to the massive neeps he grew in his 'plot' (=
> 'allotment' in Forfar!).
>
> BTW - do you happen to know the etymology of 'rutabaga'?
Failte,
According to my wonderful, know-it-all, weighs-a-tonne dictionary, the etymology
of 'rutabaga' is this: [ <dial. Sw. 'rotabagge' ]. According to my
dictionary, rutabaga is also known as 'Swedish turnip'.
Which leads to my question: when I prepare Scottish dishes and wish to include
"bashed neeps", I buy the large, deep-yellow variety. The small ones, which are
white with a purple top, are called "rutabagas" around here (New Hampshire,
USA). What do the Scots use?
Mise le meas,
Mairi
hel...@western.wave.ca
Scots prefer swedes -at least that's what my Mother prefers.
Helen
hel...@western.wave.ca
ma...@frognet.net wrote:
> Charles Mcgregor wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > Well, possibly, but all evidence seems to suggest that we are
> >looking at a shrinking usage here so any reversal I suggest would be
> > unlikely.
> >
> > regards
> > chic
>
> up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper. I
> found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order to
> put a candle inside it?
>
> seeds in the middle that one can scoop out. Is there anyone on this
> n.g. who has actually carved one of those things (neeps) for Halloween?
> If so, how did you do it?
>
>
> crops were not common in Scotland "before the 18th century". ??? Can
> anyone confirm or refute that? Or did he merely mean not in sufficient
> amount to support livestock? [This was in context of the habit of
> slaughtering cows in the fall because there was not enough hay to feed
> them through the winter.]
>
> Marjorie's Pumpkin Pie
>
> 1.5 c. cooked pumpkin or squash (haven't tried neeps - prob'ly too
> strong)
> 1.5 c. evaporated milk or medium cream
> 6 tbsp. brown sugar
> 2 tbsp. white sugar
> 1/2 tsp. salt
> 1 tsp. cinnamon
> 1/2 tsp. ginger
> 1/8 tsp. cloves
> 1/4 c. light molasses
> 1/4 c. dark (Karo) syrup (golden syrup in UK would work)
> 3 slightly beaten eggs (I beat them fairly vigorously with fork)
> 1 tsp. vanilla or 2 tbsp. rum (NB. Hamilton variation is Talisker I
> suppose)
>
> Make a single pie crust to your favorite recipe. Pour this filling in
> and bake at 425 F. (sorry, I don't remember what that is in UK terms -
> med. hot?) for 45-55 minutes. Pie is done when knife blade comes out
Hot oven ... 400 -475 degrees ... Regulo 6 - 9
Helen
> clean. This will make one deep-dish 9 inch pie or two 7-8 inch pies. I
> usually double it and make one 9 inch and two 8 inch pies. So much
> better than using a 'store-bought' filling! Enjoy.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Colin Will
hel...@western.wave.ca wrote in message <7279qp$hot$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <3647088B...@mediaone.net>,
> The Sheldons <NOS...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jakun wrote:
>>
>> > Marjorie wrote in message <36462C...@frognet.net>...
>> >
>> > <snip>
cutting
>> > >up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper.
I
>> > >found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order
to
>> > >put a candle inside it?
>> >
A similar sort of question on rec.arts.poems a few months back led me to
write the following poem:
Scottish Roots.
Brassica napus L., ml,
was brought from Holland to replace
B. rapa, which fed famished Scots
with English sheep-fodder.
We called it swede, getting it wrong,
and grew it for our beasts,
preferring sweet orange neeps
in our soups and savouries.
Now we're fashion-fed juvenile roots -
"baby beets", "cabbage-turnip", "white swedes",
turned, shaped, and only part-cooked
to preserve that field-fresh crunch -
and fleeced in fancy restaurants.
Colin Will
(FWIW rutabaga -Brasica napus - was introduced from Holland in 1755).
The Sheldons
hel...@western.wave.ca wrote:
> Scots prefer swedes -at least that's what my Mother prefers.
>
> Helen
Um-m-m-m... should I even *touch* this one?!?
Maybe I should ask, "Just what *is* your parentage, dear?"
Sorry... couldn't resist.... ;-)
Mairi
FRAJM
cattle feed and for the fun of saying it, I should imagine.
I have to say that I am shocked that Mairi finds herself among people so
deluded as to call white turnips rutabagas. They aren't and the people of New
Hampshire need to be told they aren't.
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
http://members.aol.com/frajm/
"All over the room throats were being strained and minds broadened."
-- P. G. Wodehouse, Piccadilly Jim
hel...@western.wave.ca
Perhaps this will answer your question;
In article <36471...@news.tm.net.my>,
"Jakun" <daa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> The Sheldons wrote in message <3647088B...@mediaone.net>...
>
> <snip>
> >According to my wonderful, know-it-all, weighs-a-tonne dictionary, the
> etymology
> >of 'rutabaga' is this: [ <dial. Sw. 'rotabagge' ]. According to my
> >dictionary, rutabaga is also known as 'Swedish turnip'.
>
> Aha...what we would call a 'swede'! :-)
Thanks David ;-)
Helen
hel...@western.wave.ca
The Sheldons <NOS...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
>
> Jakun wrote:
>
> > Marjorie wrote in message <36462C...@frognet.net>...
> >
> > <snip>
> > >Alright, I've just baked my Halloween pumpkin into pies and was cutting
> > >up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper. I
> > >found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order to
> > >put a candle inside it?
> >
> > Cut the top off and then howk away with something sharp! ;-) Takes forever,
> > but as kids we thoroughly enjoyed doing it! (As an aside, I seem to
> > remember the neep always gave off an awful smell whenever a lit candle was
> > placed inside and the top replaced.) My father was always the popular one
> > at that time of year, due to the massive neeps he grew in his 'plot' (=
> > 'allotment' in Forfar!).
> >
> > BTW - do you happen to know the etymology of 'rutabaga'?
>
> Failte,
>
etymology
> of 'rutabaga' is this: [ <dial. Sw. 'rotabagge' ]. According to my
> dictionary, rutabaga is also known as 'Swedish turnip'.
>
> "bashed neeps", I buy the large, deep-yellow variety. The small ones, which
are
> white with a purple top, are called "rutabagas" around here (New Hampshire,
> USA). What do the Scots use?
Swedes.
Steve Howie
:> Which leads to my question: when I prepare Scottish dishes and wish to include
:> "bashed neeps", I buy the large, deep-yellow variety. The small ones, which
: are
:> white with a purple top, are called "rutabagas" around here (New Hampshire,
:> USA). What do the Scots use?
: Swedes.
Actually, I thought the big ones were called 'rutabagas' in North America
and the smaller ones were referred to as 'turnips'. At least that's what
I saw in the veggie department at the supermarket recently.
I might add that proper turnips ( like the great whacking big anes frae
rural Aberdeenshire - yummy) are absolutley f*ing magic as a raw snack -
cut into 1/2" square strips.
Scotty
--
Steve Howie ro...@127.0.0.1
Netnews and Listserv Admin 519 824-4120 x2556
University of Guelph
"If it's not Scottish it's CRRRRAAAAAAAPPPPPP!"
helenr
Beth Kerman wrote in message ...
> Now I'm in the mood for haggis, tatties and neeps and I could
>throw in an ingin as weel. Thanks for making me homesick lads and
>lassies.
>
>;-)
Throw in anither tattie hen! Ah'll be richt up ;-)
Helen
Lachie Macquarie
>
>
>Jakun wrote:
>
>> Marjorie wrote in message <36462C...@frognet.net>...
>>
>> <snip>
>> >Alright, I've just baked my Halloween pumpkin into pies and was cutting
>> >up a rutabaga (that's what we call neeps in my part of US) for supper. I
>> >found myself wondering how on earth one would carve a turnip in order to
>> >put a candle inside it?
>>
>> Cut the top off and then howk away with something sharp! ;-) Takes forever,
>> but as kids we thoroughly enjoyed doing it! (As an aside, I seem to
>> remember the neep always gave off an awful smell whenever a lit candle was
>> placed inside and the top replaced.) My father was always the popular one
>> at that time of year, due to the massive neeps he grew in his 'plot' (=
>> 'allotment' in Forfar!).
>>
>> BTW - do you happen to know the etymology of 'rutabaga'?
>
>Failte,
>
>According to my wonderful, know-it-all, weighs-a-tonne dictionary, the etymology
>of 'rutabaga' is this: [ <dial. Sw. 'rotabagge' ]. According to my
>dictionary, rutabaga is also known as 'Swedish turnip'.
>
>"bashed neeps", I buy the large, deep-yellow variety. The small ones, which are
>white with a purple top,
I have a vague feeling that my pater referred to them as Milan's,
possibly the variety but I remember as a wee laddie delivering them to
the local grocer. The first time travelling by bus on my own. Also
damned tasty cooked with pepper, sugar and served al dente with white
sauce.
> are called "rutabagas" around here (New Hampshire,
>USA). What do the Scots use?
>
>Mise le meas,
>
>Mairi
>
--
Lachie Macquarie, Bod an Deamhain I wish.
helenr
Jakun wrote in message <36479...@news.tm.net.my>...
>
>Steve Howie wrote in message <727rjb$bkm$1...@testinfo.uoguelph.ca>...
>
><snip>
>>I might add that proper turnips ( like the great whacking big anes frae
>>rural Aberdeenshire - yummy) are absolutley f*ing magic as a raw snack -
>>cut into 1/2" square strips.
>
>
>raw neeps...!) ;-)
Me too! Don't tell anyone, but when we were kids, we stole tumshies oot o
a fairmer's field an et them on the spot ;-)
Helen
Beth Kerman
Do you remember what the tiny, white, sweet neeps were called? I
well remember pulling them from my father's garden, dusting them off, and
eating them right there and then. Mmmmmmm, delicious. I thought they
were called Swedes but I may be wrong. Thinking of that brought another
memory to mind....'Ingin Johnnies'. Remember the men who rode their bikes
around the neighborhood, with loads of onions hanging from them? I think
they were French....always wore a black beret. Ah memories!!!
Now I'm in the mood for haggis, tatties and neeps and I could
throw in an ingin as weel. Thanks for making me homesick lads and
lassies.
;-)
Jakun
The Sheldons wrote in message <3647088B...@mediaone.net>...
<snip>
>According to my wonderful, know-it-all, weighs-a-tonne dictionary, the
etymology
>of 'rutabaga' is this: [ <dial. Sw. 'rotabagge' ]. According to my
>dictionary, rutabaga is also known as 'Swedish turnip'.
Aha...what we would call a 'swede'! :-)
>Which leads to my question: when I prepare Scottish dishes and wish to
include
>"bashed neeps", I buy the large, deep-yellow variety. The small ones,
which are
>white with a purple top, are called "rutabagas" around here (New Hampshire,
>USA). What do the Scots use?
Both/either, depending on the dish, IIRC. For chappit neeps, we'd use the
big yellow ones; for other dishes, swedes might be the better choice.
Perhaps there is someone around s.c.s. who is more of a gourmand than me and
might know better?! ;-)
(For halloween lanterns, definitely the big yellow ones, BTW!)
Cheers
David