PALM TREES IN SCOTLAND
Peter Jason
The Gulf Stream is a warm ocean current in
the North Atlantic Ocean, flowing from the
Gulf of Mexico, northeast along the US coast
to Nantucket Island, and from there to the
British Isles and the Norwegian Seas.
First described by the Spanish navigator and
explorer Juan Ponce de León early in the 16th
century, the Gulf Stream's course was
originally charted in 1770, a collaboration
of Benjamin Franklin and Timothy Folger. In
1844, systematic surveying of the stream was
undertaken by the United States Coast and
Geodetic Survey. More recent efforts occurred
in the early 1930's, by the ketch Atlantis of
the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.
The Gulf of Mexico, once thought to be the
source of the Stream, actually contributes
very little to its flow. The Gulf Stream
results when two strong currents, the North
and South Equatorial Currents, mingle in the
passage between the Windward Islands and the
Caribbean Sea. Off the southern coast of
Florida, it is strengthened by other currents
from the northern coast of Puerto Rico and
from the Bahamas to the east.
The true Gulf Stream flows between the
Straits of Florida, and the Grand Banks.
However, it is part of a much larger Gulf
Stream System, that covers the entire
northward and eastward flow from the Straits
of Florida, including the branches crossing
the North Atlantic from the region south of
the Newfoundland Banks.
About 1,500 miles (2,414 km) northeast of
Cape Hatteras, in the area of the Grand
Banks, the warm Gulf Stream waters come close
to the cold, southward-flowing Labrador
Current. The contact of cold, humid air
moving over the Labrador Current with the
warm surface waters of the Gulf Stream causes
widespread condensation. This climatic
condition causes the region to have one of
the highest incidences of fog in the world.
In the western Atlantic, the current's
deep-blue water, with its higher temperature
and salinity, is readily distinguishable from
surrounding waters, particularly along its
well-defined western margin.
A major contribution of the Gulf Stream
System is its warming effect upon the
climates of adjacent land areas. In winter,
the air over the ocean west of Norway is more
than 40° F (22° C) warmer than the average
for that latitude, one of the greatest
temperature anomalies in the world. The
prevailing westerly winds carry the warmth
and moisture of the ocean to northwestern
Europe, giving Bergen, Norway, at 60 degrees
north latitude, an average high temperature
for its coldest month of 34° F (1° C), while
Reykjavík, Iceland, 4 degrees of latitude
farther north, has a 31° F (-0.6° C) average
for its coldest month.
Interestingly, along the western North
Atlantic, where the winds are predominantly
from the shore, the Gulf Stream has little
effect. Halifax, Nova Scotia, nearly 1,000
miles (1,609 km) south of Bergen, averages
only 23° F (-5° C) during its coldest month.
In southwestern England, the climatic
modification produced by the current is
reflected in the extraordinary mildness of
the winters at this northern latitude. Here,
winter vegetables and flowers are grown, and
lemon trees are seen in southern Devonshire.
And, let's not forget the palm trees in
Scotland!!
Logan Botanic Garden is in the parish of
Kirkmaiden, in the Rhinns of Galloway, a
narrow peninsula that juts out into the Irish
Sea, at the extreme south-west of Scotland.
Our friend, the Gulf Stream, gives these
gardens a virtual sub- tropical climate.
Thus, the Logan features plants usually
identified with warmer areas of the world,
including palm trees.
What a different world this would have been,
absent the Gulf Stream, with the British
Isles and Norway occupying a frozen tundra!
Paul C
wrote:
>
>Logan Botanic Garden is in the parish of
>Kirkmaiden, in the Rhinns of Galloway, a
>narrow peninsula that juts out into the Irish
>Sea, at the extreme south-west of Scotland.
>
>Our friend, the Gulf Stream, gives these
>gardens a virtual sub- tropical climate.
>Thus, the Logan features plants usually
>identified with warmer areas of the world,
>including palm trees.
You can go a lot further north than Galloway and see palm trees in
Scotland.
Plockton and Inverewe come to mind
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Plockton,_Wester_Ross.jpg/400px-Plockton,_Wester_Ross.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vickyb/264207087/in/set-72157594227742566/
S Viemeister
>
>
> You can go a lot further north than Galloway and see palm trees in
> Scotland.
>
> Plockton and Inverewe come to mind
>
I've even seen some in Orkney.
Cory Bhreckan
Ullapool too, but expect Adam to careen into this thread muttering
something about them really being big lilies and that we are all imbeciles.
--
"For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed." - William Topaz McGonagall
Peter Jason
"Cory Bhreckan"
<coryv...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in
message news:L_C2k.2705$lE3.1210@trnddc05...
Do they grow them under glass? Surely palms
are tropical plants.
The Highlander
> "Cory Bhreckan"
> <coryvrec...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in
> messagenews:L_C2k.2705$lE3.1210@trnddc05...
No, they grow outdoors. The reason is that the Gulf Stream, which
changes its name as it approaches the British Isles to the North
Atlantic Drift, washes against Ireland and the Scottish mainland and
gives both a warm climate during much of the year. The effect is
particularly noticeable in the Scilly Isles off southwest England,
where flowers are ready for the London market as early as January. And
at one time, most of the tobacco smoked in Ireland was grown there and
indeed may still be, and the North Atlantic Drift explains Ireland's
soft climate and green appearance.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
>> Paul C wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> You can go a lot further north than Galloway and see palm trees in
>>> Scotland.
>>>
>>> Plockton and Inverewe come to mind
>>>
>> Near the Royal Bank in Tongue, too.
>> I've even seen some in Orkney.
>
> Ullapool too, but expect Adam to careen into this thread muttering
> something about them really being big lilies and that we are all
> imbeciles.
Well it's true.
Unfortunately the myth is now so well established that even people who
really should know better continue to perpetuate it.
I'm not going to waste any more time on this one, other than to say that I
worked as a gardener in Inverewe Gardens and there were NO true palm trees
growing there. The trees that look like Palm trees are in fact Trachycarpus
fortunei and Cordyline australis - both of which are tough as old boots.
SFAICR the generally accepted European northern limit of any of the 30 odd
genera of the Palmaceae order - ie: true Palms - is just north of Lisbon.
Cory Bhreckan
So the date palms in the south of France aren't real palms?
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Correct.
The so-called 'date palm' is actually Phoenix dactlylifera of the order
Arecales - another lily. More closely related to the Magnolias than to the
Palms as it happens.
Anything else you want to know about trees feel free to ask - but think
yourself lucky - my charge-out rate used to be 130 quid an hour for this
stuff.
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
news:7dudnaN7Tvj4LtHV...@westnet.com.au...<Snip>
>> So the date palms in the south of France aren't real palms?
>
> Correct.
> The so-called 'date palm' is actually Phoenix dactlylifera of the order
> Arecales - another lily. More closely related to the Magnolias than to the
> Palms as it happens.
> Anything else you want to know about trees feel free to ask - but think
> yourself lucky - my charge-out rate used to be 130 quid an hour for this
> stuff.
Did you get much call for this type of information?
Cory Bhreckan
Things might have changed since you were in the biz.
"Arecaceae or Palmae (also known by the name Palmaceae, which is
taxonomically invalid[1]), the palm family, is a family of flowering
plants belonging to the monocot order, Arecales"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmaceae
Could it be that there *are* palm trees in Scotland?
deem...@aol.com
wrote:
> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
> > "Cory Bhreckan" <coryvrec...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
> >news:WnY2k.13474$bs3.2708@trnddc07...
> >> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
Palms are tropical in origin, but don't need tropical climates.
They just can't handle too many hard freezes. They thrive in South
Carolina which gets ice, snow, and all of the other winter goodies but
rarely hits below 25 degrees (Fahrenheit for the ferriners)
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"conwaycaine" <conwa...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Fga3k.1799$PZ6...@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
It was my full-time job for a couple of years. There's always a demand when
government grants available for planting the right trees in the right
places.
Mind you - I didn't get paid that much of course - that's just what my boss
charged for my services.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Maybe they've been reclassified since 1999 - it does happen - but this is
scs so I'm definitely still sticking to my sources which all say date palms
and cordylines are still lillies.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:778cda9f-3eef-4be7...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Which particular 'palms' are you talking about - there are about 3000 of
them.
Get the Latin name so we know we are talking about the same plants.
In other words: Cite?
: )
Adam Whyte-Settlar
> Could it be that there *are* palm trees in Scotland?
I just checked and this the current classification of the species that grows
in Inverewe, Plockton, Tongue and
Ullapool. It's a hardy native of New Zealand. They have become much more
popular in the UK in the last decade or so and there are even a couple of
young ones planted on the exposed Tore roundabout north of Inverness.
Kingdom: Plantae
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Liliopsida
Order: Asparagales
Family: Laxmanniaceae
Genus: Cordyline
Species: C. australis
So it's still a lily as of tonight.
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
Magnoliophyta-Liliopsida-Arecales-Palmae-(Sabal-Palmetto)
Cory Bhreckan
As are all palms.
Ian Smith
Damn it, Scotland does have palm trees! A bloke doon the pub said so. I
swear it!
Ian Smith
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote:
Here, whit aboot trachycarpuspus fortunei?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/6659301.stm
Adam Whyte-Settlar
"Ian Smith" <ianin...@btinternet.naespam.com> wrote in message
news:20080609194303.6d68b136@ianinhoose-laptop...
Pedantic b*st*rd. That's a weird one - it's from the snow covered mountains
of northern Burma and S W China. It can stand about 10 degrees of frost.
Hardly makes the case for the Gulf Stream being responsible.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/6659301.stm
Adam Whyte-Settlar
?
No they're not.
And the whole point was that Scotland is warm enough to support 'tropical'
palms - hardy includes lilies that grow on the edge of the south island of
NZ. These do not prove anything about the weather or Gulf Stream in
Scotland.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:426ced6d-f0ff-4c25...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
Magnoliophyta-Liliopsida-Arecales-Palmae-(Sabal-Palmetto)
You're using coconuts!
Havn't seen any coconuts north of Portugal myself.
Cory Bhreckan
Seeing that Gretna is at approximately the same latitude as Moscow and
Edmonton, neither known as a tropical paradise and that our dear Sheila
lives at nearly the same latitude as Stockholm and Helsinki, I'd say
it's pretty balmy in Scotland overall. Do you suppose that everyone
keeps their heaters running with their doors open?
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> <deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
<Snip>
> Palms are tropical in origin, but don't need tropical climates.
> They just can't handle too many hard freezes. They thrive in South
> Carolina which gets ice, snow, and all of the other winter goodies but
> rarely hits below 25 degrees (Fahrenheit for the ferriners)
>
> Which particular 'palms' are you talking about - there are about 3000 of
> them.
> Get the Latin name so we know we are talking about the same plants.
>
> In other words: Cite?
> : )
ADAM IS USING EMOTICONS AGAIN!!
(Inconsistent as the weather, he is)
conwaycaine
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>> Did you get much call for this type of information?
>
> It was my full-time job for a couple of years. There's always a demand
> when government grants available for planting the right trees in the right
> places.
> Mind you - I didn't get paid that much of course - that's just what my
> boss charged for my services.
The term "charged for my services" might take us to places we otherwise
would not wish to go.
But do tell us more..................
deem...@aol.com
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>
> news:1I-dnfD1K5mE2tDV...@westnet.com.au...
>
> <Snip>
> > Palms are tropical in origin, but don't need tropical climates.
> > They just can't handle too many hard freezes. They thrive in South
> > Carolina which gets ice, snow, and all of the other winter goodies but
> > rarely hits below 25 degrees (Fahrenheit for the ferriners)
>
> > Which particular 'palms' are you talking about - there are about 3000 of
> > them.
> > Get the Latin name so we know we are talking about the same plants.
>
> > In other words: Cite?
> > : )
>
> ADAM IS USING EMOTICONS AGAIN!!
> (Inconsistent as the weather, he is)
He's realized that I'm a sensitive being and was trying to spare my
feelings.
Ian Smith
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote:
Aye, wis joost stirrin things up. As the bloke says, the tree seems to
have got the benefit of waste heat from his central heating exhaust.
Ian Smith
Balmy indeed. Oor air conditioner runs the whole year roon. And we huv
tae take the coconuts doon before they hit somebdy's heid.
Cory Bhreckan
Did I say balmy? I meant barmy.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
I'm not denying that Scotland is (obviously) much warmer than other
countries at the same latitude. What I am saying is the presence of
Cordyline australis is not an especially good indicator of this warmth,
given that they would probably also survive in sheltered areas in Stockholm.
Also Trachycarpus fortunei - the only other 'palm' that I know of that
survives in the western Highlands - is an anomoly in that it is from the
snowy mountains of north Burma and has adapted to the unique weather systems
of that area.
You are right in that it appears to have been reclassified as a true palm
however. I didn't know that.
**** knows when that happened as I'm almost certain that back in '73 was
still classified as a Lily.
Whatever. There are dozens of other ways of proving you are all imbeciles so
it's a moot point really.
conwaycaine
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4939b306-ee5c-4b12...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
*Yep, that's old Adam. Known far and wide as"Mister Sensitivity".
deem...@aol.com
> <deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
Shhhh!!!!! We don't want to blow his cover!
Ian Smith
It takes skill to be a proper imbecile. I should know.
conwaycaine
<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8787ec2b-afc4-4249...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
*He's your typical gruff Scot with a heart of gold.
Fred J. McCall
:
:<deem...@aol.com> wrote in message
:
And he's gotta keep it quiet lest the owner discover he has it and
demands he return it.
--
"Adrenaline is like exercise, but without the excessive gym fees."
-- Professor Walsh, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
conwaycaine
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3tn5545r36inan0i3...@4ax.com...<Snip>
> :> He's realized that I'm a sensitive being and was trying to spare my
> :> feelings.
> :>
> :> *Yep, that's old Adam. Known far and wide as"Mister Sensitivity".
> :
> : Shhhh!!!!! We don't want to blow his cover!
> :
> :*He's your typical gruff Scot with a heart of gold.
> And he's gotta keep it quiet lest the owner discover he has it and
> demands he return it.
It's a hard life, up there in the frozen tundra.
We can't begrudge the man an occasional heart or two.....
The Highlander
> "Cory Bhreckan" <coryvrec...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:eVd3k.20876$Xu2.18993@trnddc04...
>
>
>
> > Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
> >>news:9Ca3k.375$n9.266@trndny01...
> >>> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
> >>>>news:WnY2k.13474$bs3.2708@trnddc07...
> >>>>> Adam Whyte-Settlar wrote:
industry on the Isle of Lewis, with surfboarders coming from as far
away as California to surf the warm breakers crashing in from the
Atlantic, along with the usual flotsam and jetsom (garbage) coming
ashore from Canada and the US.
The Highlander
S Viemeister
> However, I can tell you that the Gulf Stream has spawned a new
> industry on the Isle of Lewis, with surfboarders coming from as far
> away as California to surf the warm breakers crashing in from the
> Atlantic, along with the usual flotsam and jetsom (garbage) coming
> ashore from Canada and the US.
The was a major surfing event in Caithness recently......
Cory Bhreckan
Thurso is now a major surfing centre. The only snag is the stupendous
tidal drop, reef breaks are only good for an hour or so a day (half
coming in and half going out, kinda like Vancouver Island) so you're
pretty much stuck with beach breaks. Do they offer lead lined wetsuits
at the local surf shops?
S Viemeister
> S Viemeister wrote:
>> The Highlander wrote:
>>> However, I can tell you that the Gulf Stream has spawned a new
>>> industry on the Isle of Lewis, with surfboarders coming from as far
>>> away as California to surf the warm breakers crashing in from the
>>> Atlantic, along with the usual flotsam and jetsom (garbage) coming
>>> ashore from Canada and the US.
>>
>> The was a major surfing event in Caithness recently......
>
> Thurso is now a major surfing centre. The only snag is the stupendous
> tidal drop, reef breaks are only good for an hour or so a day (half
> coming in and half going out, kinda like Vancouver Island) so you're
> pretty much stuck with beach breaks. Do they offer lead lined wetsuits
> at the local surf shops?
>
La N
>S Viemeister wrote:
>> The Highlander wrote:
>>> However, I can tell you that the Gulf Stream has spawned a new
>>> industry on the Isle of Lewis, with surfboarders coming from as far
>>> away as California to surf the warm breakers crashing in from the
>>> Atlantic, along with the usual flotsam and jetsom (garbage) coming
>>> ashore from Canada and the US.
>>
>> The was a major surfing event in Caithness recently......
>
> Thurso is now a major surfing centre. The only snag is the stupendous
> tidal drop, reef breaks are only good for an hour or so a day (half coming
> in and half going out, kinda like Vancouver Island) so you're pretty much
> stuck with beach breaks. Do they offer lead lined wetsuits at the local
> surf shops?
>
My city in the interior of B.C. gets so damned hot in the summer that the
City Council a couple of years ago instituted a new gimmick. Palm trees were
imported from more southern climes and planted at various places in the
downtown core. The trees thrived and became favourite photo-op backdrops for
locals and tourists alike that they decided this would be more than a one
shot thing. So, just before winter they pull up the trees and put them in a
greenhouse and then replant them in late spring. A local oldtimer who was
born in Italy got all nostalgic for the ole country and volunteered to do
the pruning of the trees in question because it reminded him of his Italian
childhood ....
- nilita
S Viemeister
> in. :-)
>
Hmmmmm.....that might actually work!
Cory Bhreckan
Lead suits are notoriously hard to swim in.
Cory Bhreckan
> "Cory Bhreckan" <coryv...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:yzX4k.15492$3j2.2620@trnddc03...
>> S Viemeister wrote:
>>> The Highlander wrote:
>>>> However, I can tell you that the Gulf Stream has spawned a new
>>>> industry on the Isle of Lewis, with surfboarders coming from as far
>>>> away as California to surf the warm breakers crashing in from the
>>>> Atlantic, along with the usual flotsam and jetsom (garbage) coming
>>>> ashore from Canada and the US.
>>> The was a major surfing event in Caithness recently......
>> Thurso is now a major surfing centre. The only snag is the stupendous
>> tidal drop, reef breaks are only good for an hour or so a day (half coming
>> in and half going out, kinda like Vancouver Island) so you're pretty much
>> stuck with beach breaks. Do they offer lead lined wetsuits at the local
>> surf shops?
>>
>
> My city in the interior of B.C. gets so damned hot in the summer that the
> City Council a couple of years ago instituted a new gimmick. Palm trees
I'm sure they were some sort of lily.
> were
> imported from more southern climes and planted at various places in the
> downtown core. The trees thrived and became favourite photo-op backdrops for
> locals and tourists alike that they decided this would be more than a one
> shot thing. So, just before winter they pull up the trees and put them in a
> greenhouse and then replant them in late spring. A local oldtimer who was
> born in Italy got all nostalgic for the ole country and volunteered to do
> the pruning of the trees in question because it reminded him of his Italian
> childhood ....
Thanks for the whiplash. This thread has just careened in an entirely
new direction. I went surfing once on Vancouver Island, Crescent Beach I
think it was. I wore a spring suit (short wetsuit) do to the hot
temperature, it was late July. The water on the other hand was 56F
though. Surfing in completely numb feet isn't recommended.
>
> - nilita
S Viemeister
> S Viemeister wrote:
>> Custos Custodum wrote:
>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:51:50 -0400, S Viemeister
>>> <firs...@lastname.oc.ku> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cory Bhreckan wrote:
>>>>> S Viemeister wrote:
>>>>>> The Highlander wrote:
>>>>>>> However, I can tell you that the Gulf Stream has spawned a new
>>>>>>> industry on the Isle of Lewis, with surfboarders coming from as far
>>>>>>> away as California to surf the warm breakers crashing in from the
>>>>>>> Atlantic, along with the usual flotsam and jetsom (garbage) coming
>>>>>>> ashore from Canada and the US.
>>>>>> The was a major surfing event in Caithness recently......
>>>>> Thurso is now a major surfing centre. The only snag is the
>>>>> stupendous tidal drop, reef breaks are only good for an hour or so
>>>>> a day (half coming in and half going out, kinda like Vancouver
>>>>> Island) so you're pretty much stuck with beach breaks. Do they
>>>>> offer lead lined wetsuits at the local surf shops?
>>>>>
>>>> _That_ beach isn't very popular, for some reason......
>>>
>>> They should market it as a 'Hot-spot for surfers'. That'll pull them
>>> in. :-)
>>>
>>
>> Hmmmmm.....that might actually work!
>
> Lead suits are notoriously hard to swim in.
>
Cory Bhreckan
Suckers, hahahaha