New Scottish History program.
Chic McGregor
What do people make of it?
I think it is reasonable so far.
Hope everyone picked up on the debunking of the 'gaelic was not a
Lowland language' urban myth.
A signpost in Fife was used to point out Gaelic and Pictish
placenames, Whaur's Boabie?
Repeat of that prog. is on Sunday night BBC1 11ish.
Interesting the downestimating of numbers of Irish Dalriadans entering
Scotland due to new archaeological evidence, (similar to the
downgrading of Anglo-Saxon incoming estimates, which was not similarly
mentioned on the program however). I wonder how far the pendulum(or
is it a bandwagon on a piece of elastic?) is going to swing on this
before they decide they are actually underestimating migrations?
Historians are fun.
They could have mentioned that Dalriada and Pictland were united under
one king a couple of times at least before MacAlpine.
I would have liked to have heard an extract from the first recorded,
alleged utterance by a native of this land, Calgacus' speech to his
army before a battle and from the first poem Y Gododdin.
They might make an appearance yet.
regards
chic
sb3
sb3
Chic McGregor
>I thought tacitus just made that speech up?
>
Nobody can know whether Tacitus made the speech up or whether it was
recounted as reported by Roman spies. The same thing can be said of
anyone reporting anything.
I can understand it being rejected if:-
1) It were unreasonable for Calgacus to adress his troops before
battle.
2) It were unreasonable that a description of the speech by spies or
some other agency could have got back to Tacitus.
But I don't regard either of those as unreasonable.
OTOH
Given Tacitus' usual sycophantic politically sensitive style, I would
doubt that he would have made up some of the less than flattering
comments about Rome in the speech, neither I think would he have
'allowed' Tacitus to claim his people of being the last of the Free
and thus accord him the moral high ground.
i.e. there is fairly good common sense grounds to doubt that Tacitis
composed it.
There is certainly is no good reason to reject it.IMO
IMO it is most likely that some report of a speech percolated through
to Tacitus by some mechanism, whether it was by direct spying or by
the three and fourpence system, who knows?
I don't think he wrote it.
regards
chic
sb3
uncle agricola had spies, why did they not get his real name (calgicus?)
when other acounts of roman wars mention tribal readers by their indigenous
names, like ceasars account of his gaulish campaign.
sb3
connochies
Chic McGregor <charles....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3a9eeec8....@news.ntlworld.com...
> Just before I stop posting for another whilie.
> What do people make of it?
>
> I think it is reasonable so far.
>
> Hope everyone picked up on the debunking of the 'gaelic was not a
> Lowland language' urban myth.
> A signpost in Fife was used to point out Gaelic and Pictish
> placenames, Whaur's Boabie?
> Repeat of that prog. is on Sunday night BBC1 11ish.
I know this is a pet subject of yours, but I honestly can't see what you
think is being debunked. I have looked through various books and have yet
to find any claiming that Gaelic wasn't spoken in the Lowlands.
"By 1100 Gaelic law and custom had reached almost every part of what we now
call Scotland, including Lothian and the South East - from Scotland A New
HIstory by Michael Lynch"
"The country's monarch and aristocracy spoke Gaelic, as did the majority of
the people - from Scotland's Story by Tom Steel"
"English had established a basis in the Lothians, but had temporarily
retreated leaving a sprinkling of Gaelic place names south of the Forth, and
another dialect of Gaelic has found its way into the extreme south west -
Scotland's Place Names by David Dorward"
"When centuries later Q-Celtic came to the Borders, they changed P-Celtic
names into their own cousin language - from The Lost Kingdoms by Alistair
Moffat"
"Even in Lothian, seen by some as English of the English, Gaelic place names
are present in abundance, cheek by jowl with the Anglian and Brittonic
names -The Identity of the Scottish Nation by William Ferguson"
The new programme in this instance is only following a well beaten trail and
would be unlikely to surprise many people at all.
>
> Interesting the downestimating of numbers of Irish Dalriadans entering
> Scotland due to new archaeological evidence, (similar to the
> downgrading of Anglo-Saxon incoming estimates, which was not similarly
> mentioned on the program however). I wonder how far the pendulum(or
> is it a bandwagon on a piece of elastic?) is going to swing on this
> before they decide they are actually underestimating migrations?
> Historians are fun.
This part of the programme disappointed me. As I mentioned in a thread
several weeks ago, Fiona Watson's article in the BBC History Magazine says
"recent work inspired by archaeology of Dal Riata asserts that, however
close the links between that kingdom and Ireland [including language] the
Scots who lived there were in fact the native peoples of that area." I
waited in vain for this evidence to appear on our screens. There is
evidence, which has been around for well over half a century, which lead
some English historians to conclude that the Anglian presence in Bernicia
was little more than the aristocratic elite, and that the existing peasantry
remained on the land. But you are right of course, these theories ebb and
flow.
>
> They could have mentioned that Dalriada and Pictland were united under
> one king a couple of times at least before MacAlpine.
True. MacAlpine being the first is a myth.
>
> I would have liked to have heard an extract from the first recorded,
> alleged utterance by a native of this land, Calgacus' speech to his
> army before a battle and from the first poem Y Gododdin.
Likewise, but at least there was some Cymric poetry mentioned, which is
refreshing as this is often totally ignored by Scottish historians.
>
>
> They might make an appearance yet.
I bought the book and must admit that trying to squeeze 2000 years of
history into one smallish volume leaves you with a feeling of skimming over
the surface. Out of about 240 pagesThe Clearances receive only a couple of
paragraphs, whilst the 45 gets only this one sentence 'In 1715 and 1745
Jacobite risings had threatened to topple the insecure Hanovarian dynasty,
while periodic rumblings and disturbances rumoured to be Jacobite inspired
ensured that Britain's ruling elites remained nervous at least until the
1750s.' Whilst I agree that the 45 normally receives attention way beyond
its importance; I feel that some people may feel cheated at buying whole
chapters on jute workers in Dundee. I was exaggerating over that last point
of course.
cheers
Allan
>
> regards
> chic
Chic McGregor
<co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>
>Chic McGregor <charles....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:3a9eeec8....@news.ntlworld.com...
>> Just before I stop posting for another whilie.
>> What do people make of it?
>>
>> I think it is reasonable so far.
>>
>> Hope everyone picked up on the debunking of the 'gaelic was not a
>> Lowland language' urban myth.
>> A signpost in Fife was used to point out Gaelic and Pictish
>> placenames, Whaur's Boabie?
>> Repeat of that prog. is on Sunday night BBC1 11ish.
>
>I know this is a pet subject of yours, but I honestly can't see what you
>think is being debunked. I have looked through various books and have yet
>to find any claiming that Gaelic wasn't spoken in the Lowlands.
>
Not a pet subject, I can assure you, I'd much rather not have to be
continually pointing it out.
Note also, I said URBAN myth. It is almost entirely the domain of the
chattering classes. Although I noticed Auld Bob recently inferred it
(unintentionally I'm sure) to a newcomer to the group. I couldn't even
guess how many times I've had to correct that misconception in pubs or
at parties.(especially in Glesgoe's West End). At one time, you could
be guaranteed whenever you mentioned that you were learning Gaelic
some wag would spout forth thus. Thankfully, the incidence seems to
be actually dying off now.
>"By 1100 Gaelic law and custom had reached almost every part of what we now
>call Scotland, including Lothian and the South East - from Scotland A New
>HIstory by Michael Lynch"
>
>"The country's monarch and aristocracy spoke Gaelic, as did the majority of
>the people - from Scotland's Story by Tom Steel"
>
>"English had established a basis in the Lothians, but had temporarily
>retreated leaving a sprinkling of Gaelic place names south of the Forth, and
>another dialect of Gaelic has found its way into the extreme south west -
>Scotland's Place Names by David Dorward"
>
>"When centuries later Q-Celtic came to the Borders, they changed P-Celtic
>names into their own cousin language - from The Lost Kingdoms by Alistair
>Moffat"
>
>"Even in Lothian, seen by some as English of the English, Gaelic place names
>are present in abundance, cheek by jowl with the Anglian and Brittonic
>names -The Identity of the Scottish Nation by William Ferguson"
>
You've been busy. Wish I'd clarified URBAN. Still your quotes are
informative.
I have 3 of the 5 books you cite.
Ferguson, although I don't recall your quote, appears to be
'debunking' to an extent himself.:-) As I remember he goes to some
length to establish Gaelic placenames in Lothian, the early name for
the village of Temple rings a bell. (no pun int.) I would normally
look it up but I'm in the middle of something.
>The new programme in this instance is only following a well beaten trail and
>would be unlikely to surprise many people at all.
>
I would like to think so, but I still have my doubts.
>
>
>>
>> Interesting the downestimating of numbers of Irish Dalriadans entering
>> Scotland due to new archaeological evidence, (similar to the
>> downgrading of Anglo-Saxon incoming estimates, which was not similarly
>> mentioned on the program however). I wonder how far the pendulum(or
>> is it a bandwagon on a piece of elastic?) is going to swing on this
>> before they decide they are actually underestimating migrations?
>> Historians are fun.
>
>This part of the programme disappointed me. As I mentioned in a thread
>several weeks ago, Fiona Watson's article in the BBC History Magazine says
>"recent work inspired by archaeology of Dal Riata asserts that, however
>close the links between that kingdom and Ireland [including language] the
>Scots who lived there were in fact the native peoples of that area." I
I missed that. I must say I welcome the news as a (hitherto) minority
believer that the Picts must have spoke a form of Gaelic.
(Intermarriages, shared kings, maq/maqq for son, gaelic king names in
lists, 'missing' language, art forms, logistics, etc.). I expect that
this new evidence will swing the language argument that way again
(used to be the consensus 40 yearsish ago). There is too much
evidence for Pictish continuum to the West coast, art, brochs etc. to
propose a pre-Dalriadan gaelic/pictish mainland interface.
>waited in vain for this evidence to appear on our screens. There is
>evidence, which has been around for well over half a century, which lead
>some English historians to conclude that the Anglian presence in Bernicia
>was little more than the aristocratic elite, and that the existing peasantry
>remained on the land. But you are right of course, these theories ebb and
>flow.
>
Well at least the new ones are archaelogically based. Now if we can
only get them to an appreciation of logistics.:-)
BTW AIIRC Ferguson was dogmatically 'the Picts were P-Celtic' :-) So
even someone that bright can get it wrong. (Actually there's a couple
of things I disagree with him on, but at least he has the balls to
push the boat out).
Also AIIRC (remembering a previous post), he mentions that Picts were
called Galwegians somewhere.
>
>>
>> They could have mentioned that Dalriada and Pictland were united under
>> one king a couple of times at least before MacAlpine.
>
>
>True. MacAlpine being the first is a myth.
>
>
>>
>> I would have liked to have heard an extract from the first recorded,
>> alleged utterance by a native of this land, Calgacus' speech to his
>> army before a battle and from the first poem Y Gododdin.
>
>Likewise, but at least there was some Cymric poetry mentioned, which is
>refreshing as this is often totally ignored by Scottish historians.
>
Not to mention English and Welsh ones.
>
>>
>>
>> They might make an appearance yet.
>
>
>I bought the book and must admit that trying to squeeze 2000 years of
Aye, I suppose we'll need tae fork oot agen.
>history into one smallish volume leaves you with a feeling of skimming over
>the surface. Out of about 240 pagesThe Clearances receive only a couple of
>paragraphs, whilst the 45 gets only this one sentence 'In 1715 and 1745
>Jacobite risings had threatened to topple the insecure Hanovarian dynasty,
>while periodic rumblings and disturbances rumoured to be Jacobite inspired
>ensured that Britain's ruling elites remained nervous at least until the
>1750s.' Whilst I agree that the 45 normally receives attention way beyond
>its importance; I feel that some people may feel cheated at buying whole
Well maybe a balance is redressed.
>chapters on jute workers in Dundee. I was exaggerating over that last point
>of course.
>
Ah Dundeh, the city of the three Jays, Jealousy (Perth's nearby),
Junkfood (pehs) and Jobless
regards
chic
Nick-Durie
connochies <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:97p8jt$jf5$3...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I feel that some people may feel cheated at buying whole
> chapters on jute workers in Dundee.
Eh canna see wit's wrang wi that. Wit ir you haiverin at, Dundee needs mehr
o thon! As Scotland's first city it anelie richt at we hae the biggest pert
o onie historie book!
(/hw/ interogative in the tradeetional Dundee is ayewes /w/, Eh deh ken how
this is. Emdie hae onie ideas?)
Auld Bob Peffers
For crying out loud Chic. I told the person the language of her ancestors
was unlikely to be Gaelic and here you are claiming I said Gaelic was never
spoken in the Lowlands and Borders. That is not quite the same thing at all.
Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees? I said no such thing. I said
Gaelic was unlikely to be the language of her ancestors for the very good
reason that when the people from the area were emigrating to the Americas
etc., the language they would most likely have spoken was Lallans and not
Gaelic. I had several of my family who went to the Americas at that time and
one who was sent as a convict to Australia. I am certain they were Lallans
speakers and probably knew no Gaelic. Are you going to dispute that?
--
Auld Bob Peffers,
Web site, The Eck's Files.
http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
connochies
Nick-Durie <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote in message
news:3aa04...@news2.vip.uk.com...
>
> connochies <co...@conno.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
> news:97p8jt$jf5$3...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > I feel that some people may feel cheated at buying whole
> > chapters on jute workers in Dundee.
>
> Eh canna see wit's wrang wi that. Wit ir you haiverin at, Dundee needs
mehr
> o thon! As Scotland's first city it anelie richt at we hae the biggest
pert
> o onie historie book!
Ay, A'll chynge that ti hosiery fowk fae Hawick than. A deh ken if there's
ony Teires ti hae thair taes stampit on SCS. Thenks for thon e-mail ye sent
iz. Some interestin points.
Allan
Nick-Durie
Pity he didn't say where Mons Graupius was tho, eh no?
> regards
> chic
>
>
>
Albert Steptoe
charles....@ntlworld.com says...
> Just before I stop posting for another whilie.
> What do people make of it?
>
> I think it is reasonable so far.
I think it's terribly twee in it's presentation
style - a bit like The Beechgrove Garden meets Weir's
Awa. It could be a bit more dynamic. There's very little
in it so far that I didn't do at school.
It also appears to have skipped over the impact
Christianity had on the country in the first millenium.
Didn't Ian Grimble do all this in Who Are The Scots? back
in the 70s?
> They could have mentioned that Dalriada and Pictland were united under
> one king a couple of times at least before MacAlpine.
I thought they did - Alba under Constantine.
>
connochies
Albert Steptoe <herc...@rag-n-bone.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.150d90a01...@news.ntlworld.com...
I can't really remember which Constantine they were referring to, but I
think it was Kenneth's grand-son Constantine II. There were 3 Constantines
of Alba, which was of course after the reign of Kenneth. However before
this there was also a Constantine King of Picts from 789 to 820AD, who was
also the King of Dalriada; as was his brother Oengus II who ruled from 820
to 834AD.
Allan
>
> >
Chic McGregor
MacAlpine was referred to as King of Picts after his union also.
regards
chic
Albert Steptoe
co...@conno.greatxscape.net says...
> > > They could have mentioned that Dalriada and Pictland were united under
> > > one king a couple of times at least before MacAlpine.
> >
> > I thought they did - Alba under Constantine.
>
> I can't really remember which Constantine they were referring to, but I
> think it was Kenneth's grand-son Constantine II. There were 3 Constantines
> of Alba, which was of course after the reign of Kenneth. However before
> this there was also a Constantine King of Picts from 789 to 820AD, who was
> also the King of Dalriada; as was his brother Oengus II who ruled from 820
> to 834AD.
>
You're right. It was Constantine II. It was in 937 that
Aethelstan came north to do battle with Constantine.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
> news:97p8jt$jf5$3...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > I feel that some people may feel cheated at buying whole
> > chapters on jute workers in Dundee.
>
> Eh canna see wit's wrang wi that. Wit ir you haiverin at, Dundee needs
mehr
> o thon! As Scotland's first city it anelie richt at we hae the biggest
pert
> o onie historie book!
Are you sure it's not published by D C Thompson?
The adorable
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Alan Hardie <axha...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f464atcbnmi4fl65q...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 02:38:10 -0000, "Nick-Durie"
> <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Pity he didn't say where Mons Graupius was tho, eh no?
> >
>
>
That would be more feasible if Ben Wyvis were ON the Black Isle, no?
The adorable
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Micheil
How startling! Like thinking Ben Nevis is on Skye!
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr nan Ňg...
Micheil
wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Mar 2001 05:00:19 GMT, mic...@arainnmhor.com (Micheil)
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:07:41 -0000, "Adam Whyte-Settlar"
>><glw...@dialstart.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Alan Hardie <axha...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>
>>>> Ben Wyvis, Black Isle,
>>>>
>>>That would be more feasible if Ben Wyvis were ON the Black Isle, no?
>
>Instead of merely being adjacent to it. Fair point.
>
>>
>>How startling! Like thinking Ben Nevis is on Skye!
>>
>
>Actually, it's nothing like thinking Ben Nevis was on Skye.
>
It is to my mind.
Adam Whyte-Settlar
> ><glw...@dialstart.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Alan Hardie <axha...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> >>>
> >>That would be more feasible if Ben Wyvis were ON the Black Isle, no?
>
Well you know how I just love to be pedantic so I will point out that it is
not really adjacent either.
The Black Isle ends mid point in the river Conon at Conon Bridge. The summit
of Ben Wyvis is about 9 miles west of there.
Between Conon Bridge and 'The Ben' You have the ridge of the 'The Cats
Back' then the land drops into 'The Strath' of the Peffery then rises again
to 'The Hieghts of Achterneed' then there is about 4 or 5 miles of
undulating lowland foothills and moors before you reach the eastern flank of
The Ben.
> >
> >How startling! Like thinking Ben Nevis is on Skye!
> >
>
> Actually, it's nothing like thinking Ben Nevis was on Skye.
On this point we are agreed. I think Micheil must have been having another
of his turns when he wrote that.
The adorable
Adam Whyte-Settlar