Re: The neverending story: Georgia.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 4, 10:27 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On May 5, 10:58 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > Vladimir, do you really think FSB is NOT interested in disrupting NATO
> > > exercises?
> > > (Surely you can't start mutiny if there are not some real support for
> > > that in "object" country. Otherwise you end up like 1924 commie
> > > "uprising" in Estonia)
>
> > Surely, you must be joking, Vello, I know that you think that I am
> > very dumb and illogical,
>
> Karla, please do not wander in heads of other people - you have no
> idea what is happening there. If I fing your POST is illogical, I may
> notice it. But reading my posts you may see I'm not putting labels on
> other people - same advice to you if you want others will take you
> seriously.
>
Didn't you write to me that almost any post of mine shows "childish
logic mistakes" and indicates that my IQ is below 100, to be exact -
around 71:
On Dec 15 2007, 4:25 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> may I speculate that you just made typo writing 71 with
> additional 1? You make often quite childish logic
> mistakes, so if your IQ is over 100 you had to
> deliberatlely shelter it in almost any post you type.
>
> About your logic, I will help you in future - I have
> no time to go back and analyse your posts
>
Thanks. What would I do without you correcting my “childish logic”.
>
> differently from you I don't make things up.
>
Care to give an example of me "making things up"? Or did you make up
this accusation?
>
> I don't make things up.
>
Really? How about this, the most recent one:
On May 30, 1:13 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> One big neighbour of Ukraine is still fighting ww2 in TV
> and other media almost any day. A month before May 9
> there were almost no topics in Russian TV except ww2.
>
Did you make this up? I receive full weekly schedules for the top 18
(eighteen) Russian TV networks from the CityCat over the email. I
still haven't deleted the week of 20 April 2009 - 27 April 2009. I
skipmmed over the entire schedule and spotted not a single TV program
on the subject of WW2, out of the total of maybe 5 000 programs. If
you don't trust me - I
will be glad to forward a copy to you.
>
>> but do you really think that your reasoning
> > above is …. well, to put it politely, adequate? Is anything in the
> > World that is of benefit to the FSB - really the work of the FSB?
>
> Yes - it is adequate. No, not all things good for Russia are made by
> Russia (gas is good example:-))
>
Wouldn’t you also say that not all things good for USA, UK, Norway,
Canada (and all other countries on this planet) are made by USA, UK,
Norway, Canada respectively? Gas and oil are good examples. :-)
>
> Now look what you have done: you take my QUESTION about what Vladimir
> thinks about FSB attitude. Read again - there is not a single word
> about KGB as organiser of that mutiny. All I was talking was about
> motivation - and surely russia has some motivation.
>
I have a question of my own: didn't the CIA and MI5/6 have motivation
in discrediting Putin through the actions of such dissidents as
Kasparov, Khodorkovsky, Limonov, Berezovsky, Litvinenko and
Politkovskaya?
Also: the murder of a totally benign flake like Litvinenko was the
worst blow to Russia's reputation in many years. Didn't the CIA and
MI5/6 have motivation in discrediting Putin by killing him with such a
sensational, exotic, expensive ($10 million per vial), radoactive and
irrefutable poison as Polonium and then blaming FSB for it?
Same for the murder of Politkovskaya.
>
> It makes for me them more suspicious then Mossad
> or Santa Claus. But we have no proofs
> and differently from you I don't make things up.
>
Would you also say that Santa Clause is less likely to be behind the
murders of Litvinenko and Politkovskaya than the CIA and MI5/6?
>
> All I was talking was about
> motivation - and surely russia has some motivation.
>
Motivation for what? For the non-existent plots by Georgian military
and security officers to kill Saakashvili (at least 4 times) [6] [7]
[8] [9], Shevardnadze (dozens of times) [1] [2] [3] [5] and Stalin
long before them (hundreds of times) [no references needed],
manufactured by these men in order to suppress and imprison opposition
leaders?
REFERENCES:
[1] http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200011/kaplan-georgia/3
Where Europe Vanishes
Robert D. Kaplan
During my stay in Tbilisi it was announced that the latest in well
over a dozen conspiracies against Shevardnadze had been uncovered. The
next morning Shevardnadze called a press conference, where he calmly
told the journalists that the latest plot was more than a planned
assassination attempt against him—it involved a military coup "to
remove the entire leadership," including cabinet members and
parliamentarians. Of the reported conspiracies at least two were full-
fledged assassination attempts: a car bombing and a gun-and-grenade
attack. "The chieftain of this new plot is located abroad, in
Russia," Shevardnadze told us. This was predictable. No Western
diplomats I met had any doubt that Russia was behind the assassination
attempts. [speaking of the Western propaganda!] The Kremlin has an
imperial mentality; Washington does not. [That was 3 years before the
Occupation of Iraq. Speaking of the Western propaganda!]
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Kaplan
Demand for Kaplan's unorthodox analysis became more popular after the
September 11, 2001 attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C. In
his book Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos,
published shortly after 9/11, Kaplan offered the opinion that
political and business leaders should discard Christian/Jewish
morality in public decision-making in favor of a pagan morality
focused on the morality of the result rather than the morality of the
means.
[3] http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Eduard_Shevardnadze/
Two assassination attempts were mounted against Shevardnadze in August
1995 and February 1998 which his government blamed on remnants of
Gamsakhurdia's party.
[5] http://www.azer.org/aiweb/categories/topics/Quotes/quote_shevardnadze.html
Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze, 70, on February 10, 1998,
after surviving the second attempt on his life in 30 months. He
attributed the assassination attempt to a "third force" of
"international terrorism" in Russia.
[So, whose plot was it: Russia's or Gamsakhurdia's?]
[6] http://www.bakutoday.net/georgia-says-adjaria-behind-plot-to-kill-saakashvili.html
Georgia Says Adjaria Behind Plot To Kill Saakashvili
03/04/2004 03:47
Georgian authorities today accused the leadership of the autonomous
province of Adjaria of plotting to assassinate President Mikheil
Saakashvili.
[7] http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1010/42/351377.htm
Saakashvili Opponent Charged in Coup Plot
11 January 2008
Reuters
Georgian prosecutors on Thursday charged one of President Mikheil
Saakashvili's most powerful opponents, Badri Patarkatsishvili, with
plotting a coup and attempting to organize a terrorist attack.
[8] http://www.armeniandiaspora.com/forum/showthread.php?p=33723
TBILISI: Natelashvili: grenade a plot by Saakashvili
The Messenger, Georgia
July 29 2005
Head of the opposition Labor Party Shalva Natelashvili held a press
conference on Thursday to state that the investigation of the
terrorist act against the presidents of Georgia and the U.S. that has
been underway since May 10 has been "an advertising act of Georgian
authorities." "After looking through the available information, the
members of the party have come to the conclusion that the attempt on
the presidents had been staged by Georgian Minister of Internal
Affairs Vano Merabishvili who was acting on the instructions of
President Saakashvili," he said. Natelashvili claimed the chief
suspect Vladimir Arutunian collaborated with the authorities, while
the explosives found in his
home have been supplied by Georgian special services. "Saakashvili
wanted his name and the name of the U.S. president to be focused on by
the international media," he added. "The information we've gathered
surrounding May 10 suggests that the act was planned by the Georgian
authorities has already been sent to the U.S. Congress, the UN
Security Council, and U.S. law enforcement," he said.
[9] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30574427/
Georgia: Brief mutiny at military base halted
Moscow, opposition decry ‘tall tale’ after government alleges Russia
link
Tues., May 5, 2009
The mutiny followed an announcement by the Interior Ministry that it
had uncovered a Russia-supported plot to overthrow the government and
had arrested the suspected organizers. The defense minister said the
mutiny was in response to the arrests the night before.
But the Interior Ministry later backed off and said the coup plotters,
backed by Russian troops, were intent mainly on disrupting NATO
military exercises set to begin Wednesday in Georgia.
An official in Saakashvili's office said: … There was no evidence, he
said, that they planned a coup attempt. Neither is there any evidence
of Russian involvement. He spoke on condition he not be identified...
Defense Minister David Sikharulidze said he had been blocked from
entering the military base in Mukhrovani, about 20 miles from Tbilisi,
the capital. The base's tank battalion of about 500 army personnel had
announced that they would refuse to follow orders, he said.
Protests against Saakashvili
Saakashvili has been the target of more than three weeks of street
protests by opposition demonstrators demanding he resign. His
government has accused Russians of supporting the opposition.
A former British OSCE official told NBC News that he thinks the
Georgian government is accusing Russia of supporting a coup to deflect
attention away from protests.
The official in Saakashvili's office said, "There's absolutely nothing
going on in Tbilisi, at the base or anywhere in the country." He said
the mutiny was inspired by a small group of disgruntled officers who
were involved in a similar action at the same base in 2001.
Opposition leader and former Saakashvili ally Georgy Khaindrava said
the reports of the planned coup were made up. "It's nothing but a tall
tale, and we've heard so many of them already," Khaindrava said.
"Saakashvili could not make up anything smarter."
NBC News correspondent Jim Maceda, who has reported from the region,
said he thought Saakashvili was "dying to flex his muscles" ahead of
the NATO exercises. "This latest 'crushed coup' is more about internal
politics, and building up Saakashvili's 'western credentials,' than
any major threat to [his government]. Given [Saakashvili's] track
record, it could all be for show."
Arrests reported
Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said the suspected coup
plot was organized by a former special forces commander, Georgy
Gvaladze. Gvaladze and an army officer on active duty have been
arrested, the spokesman said.
But some former Soviet republics have recently decided not to take
part. Among the countries to back out was Armenia, Estonia, Latvia,
Kazakhstan, Moldova and Serbia also had decided to pull out.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On Jun 4, 6:38 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>> On Jun 4, 10:27 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>
> I have a question of my own: didn't the CIA and MI5/6 have motivation
> in discrediting Putin through the actions of such dissidents as
> Kasparov, Khodorkovsky, Limonov, Berezovsky, Litvinenko and
> Politkovskaya?
>
> Also: the murder of a totally benign flake like Litvinenko was the
> worst blow to Russia's reputation in many years. Didn't the CIA and
> MI5/6 have motivation in discrediting Putin by killing him with such a
> sensational, exotic, expensive ($10 million per vial), radoactive and
> irrefutable poison as Polonium and then blaming FSB for it?
>
> Same for the murder of Politkovskaya.
>
>> It makes for me them more suspicious then Mossad
>> or Santa Claus. But we have no proofs
>> and differently from you I don't make things up.
>>
>
> Would you also say that Santa Clause is less likely to be behind the
> murders of Litvinenko and Politkovskaya than the CIA and MI5/6?
>
So now you are into accusations karla?!
Hoping you can create a conspiracy theory which you can later recover
from GOOGLE and claim as having a stamp of authority? :)
--
Rostyk
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 4, 6:38 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
> >> On Jun 4, 10:27 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> >REFERENCES:
>
>> [1] http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200011/kaplan-georgia/3
>
> > Where Europe Vanishes
> > Robert D. Kaplan
>
> > During my stay in Tbilisi it was announced that the latest in
> > well over a dozen conspiracies against Shevardnadze had been
> > Russia," Shevardnadze told us. This was predictable. No Western
> > diplomats I met had any doubt that Russia was behind the
>> imperial mentality; Washington does not.
>
> Hoping you can create a conspiracy theory which you can later recover
> from GOOGLE and claim as having a stamp of authority? :)
>
Rostochek, I didn't create these conspiracy theories. I am quoting the
article by Robert D. Kaplan from the Atlantic Monthly about crazy
Western journalists' conspiracy theories about Russia being behind
"well over a dozen conspiracies against Shevardnadze". I agree with
you: these conspiracies never existed. Shevardnadze just fabricated
them.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Your melody sounds familiar.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
> Your melody sounds familiar.
>
I presume you are talking about my favourite march here, which I and
the Yabloko party want to see as the anthem of Russia. It **should**
sound familiar to you. Try to guess in which country the modern
portions were taken in these related videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIn3SSDQn6o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYyKHX5e-hc
Take 3 guesses.
How about the country in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b64kBUPCK1s
And here is the professional Russian rendition with lyrics:
vello
> On Jun 6, 1:44 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Your melody sounds familiar.
>
> I presume you are talking about my favourite march here, which I and
> the Yabloko party want to see as the anthem of Russia. It **should**
> sound familiar to you. Try to guess in which country the modern
> portions were taken in these related videos:
>
>
> Take 3 guesses.
>
> How about the country in this video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b64kBUPCK1s
>
> And here is the professional Russian rendition with lyrics:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O11wh8Z_jtk
That can be nice anthem for those leaving Russia for better hunting
fields - like you. But russians in Russia sure need some another song,
not "Farewell, fatherland". More, song itself is beautiful, but not
many countries do use military song as anthem. Take Germany, thay just
say they love their motherland and anything inside it over all things
in world.
Weird that you share musical preferences with Yabloko - with those
degenerats wanting to turn Russia into some "dermocratic" state like
France or Germany. Or Estonia.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 7, 10:48 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 1:44 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Your melody sounds familiar.
>
> > I presume you are talking about my favourite march here, which I and
> > the Yabloko party want to see as the anthem of Russia. It **should**
> > sound familiar to you. Try to guess in which country the modern
> > portions were taken in these related videos:
>
>
> > Take 3 guesses.
>
> > How about the country in this video:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b64kBUPCK1s
>
> > And here is the professional Russian rendition with lyrics:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O11wh8Z_jtk
>
> That can be nice anthem for those leaving Russia for better hunting
> fields - like you.
>
I left as a teenager in the late 1970s. My parents left because of
professional discrimination against them and their children, as Jews.
>
> But russians in Russia sure need some another song,
> not "Farewell, fatherland".
>
Why do you call it "Farewell, fatherland"? This is a song about
Russian soldiers leaving their women and homes to defend their
motherland in wars, like WW1 and WW2. Most will die.
Where did you get the idea that these soldiers were "emigrating to
better hunting fields"? Are you sure that the fields of war are
"better hunting fields" than peaceful life at home? Have you ever been
in a battle, where 80% of soldiers on each side fall dead?
>
> More, song itself is beautiful, but not
> many countries do use military song as anthem. Take Germany, thay just
> say they love their motherland and anything inside it over all things
> in world.
> Weird that you share musical preferences with Yabloko - with those
> degenerats wanting to turn Russia into some "dermocratic" state like
> France or Germany. Or Estonia.
>
I share almost all Yavlinsky’s and Yabloko’s positions in the
domestic are many – in the foreign relation spheres. Both of us are
for democratic but centrally controlled Russia, and condemn Yeltsin’s
criminal destruction and destabilization of Russia. Both of us want
Russia to be a peaceful and responsible member of the international
community, but we also want it to start vigorously defending its own
security and interests as much as do other major democratic
countries. Yabloko wants democracy but it does not mean that Russia
should become a slave to other democratic countries, in the same way
that USA and France are democracies but refuse to be slaves to other
democratic countries. “Democracy” and “international weakness” are
antonyms, not synonyms.
Here are some of the political positions of Yabloko that you may not
be familiar with.
http://yabloko.ru/Publ/2008/2008_09/080910_svob_mitrokh.html
September 2008
Yabloko’s Position on South Ossetia
Yabloko is the only party in Russia that has from the very beginning
condemned both the Russian war in Chechnya and Georgia’s aggression
against South Ossetia. Yabloko finds it likely that Saakashvili has
committed mass extermination of Ossetian people. The West played the
role of a provocateur. Hinting that Georgia may join NATO emboldened
Saakashvili and partially provoked him into aggression. It is very
surprising that the West has taken such a one-sided position.
As a peace-keeping force according to the existing agreement between
Georgia and South Ossetia, Russia was completely justified in moving
its troops to defend Ossetia. On the other hand, from the beginning
Yabloko has said that, in principle, it would be wrong for Russia to
carry the war into the Georgian territory. However, this entry was
unavoidable and necessary for the defence of South Ossetia. But after
the mission of defending Ossetia is accomplished, Russia did not lower
itself to the level of Georgian aggressors and pulled all of its
troops out of Georgia, as Yabloko had demanded in August 2008.
The case of South Ossetia is very similar to Kosovo. The Russian
recognition of S. Ossetia’s and Abkhazia’s independence was directly
provoked by West’s recognition of Kosovo. But Russia too is guilty of
double standards, as it had fought against the independence of
Chechnya. Yabloko is against the recognition of S. Ossetia’s and
Abkhazia’s independence, just as it’s against Kosovo independence.
http://www.yavlinsky.ru/news/index.phtml?id=833
Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe and NATO Expansion: Déjà
Vu
October 2002
Russia came to the May 2002 meeting with NATO on the Treaty on
Conventional Armed Forces in Europe with a more constructive position
than expected. “Baltic countries are joining NATO” – said the Russian
representatives - “Therefore, they must join the Treaty on
Conventional Armed Forces”.
NATO can gain unfair advantage by placing unlimited military resources
in the Baltic states. Sadly, the Baltic states refused Treaty on
Conventional Armed Forces in Europe.
[By the way, these three rogue states continue to refuse signing the
Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe to this day. ]
http://yabloko.ru/Union/Program/decl-99.html
[Yeltsin's actions against Russian interests during the break-up of
USSR] were stupid and treasonous. They took the young Russian state
along the worst possible development scenario. Yeltsin failed his
responsibilities.
The second most important goal for Russia [in 1999] is the immediate
imposition of order in Russia, and the restoration of strong
centralised rule. In a country, that is falling apart, it is
impossible to have a good economy. If the laws of the country and
Presidential and ministerial orders are ignored - it means that the
control of the country belongs not to the State but to lobbyists and
criminal clans.
Russia must create full-fledged system of national security, capable
to counteract the new threats of the 21st century. It must reorganize
its security system and strengthen its borders.
Russia also demands that the society condemns the personalities that
ruled Russia in the 1990s and their "reforms", and to assign
responsibilities to the people who were in charge. Yabloko is an anti-
oligarch party. We think that in the 1990s, the Big Business
aggressively took over the politics for the purpose of their profits.
http://www.yabloko.ru/Publ/RadioTV/yavl-tv6-3.html
Yavlinsky (the leader of Yabloko) in an Interview to Spectator, July
1999
The central moment at the Salzburg Summit was a confrontation between
Gregory Yavlinsky and the Secretary General of NATO Javier Solana
during the panel discussion on European Security and Kosovo. The
audience consisted of 750 people. In his speech about the lessons of
Kosovo, Yavlinsky said: "While defending the lives of one group of
people, you murdered other innocent people. I am concerned about the
gloating tones contained in speeches by the leaders of NATO, in
particular concerning Kosovo. "
In response, Solana said NATO had acted in the "spirit of UN".
Yavlinsky retorted: "The 'spirit' and the ‘letter’ are two different
things. I have grown up in a country, where people lived not according
to Law but according to the 'spirit'. This had led to horrible
tragedies. Solana had nothing to reply with.
In his interview, Yavlinsky said: "Milosevic is a criminal, but in
Kosovo, NATO has made a horrible mistake, for which all of Europe will
be paying dearly and for a very long time. NATO - primarily USA - has
created a never-to-heal wound in the center of Europe. These actions
have destroyed all security mechanisms all over the World. ... We are
seeing a silent alienation of Europe towards USA.
http://www.yabloko.ru/Press/Docs/2004/0323_lukin_kosovo.html
March 2004
What was happening in Kosovo before 1999 was undoubtedly evil. It had
to be stopped. But the organizers of the 1999 action [i.e., NATO]
found nothing better than to side with one bandit against another
one.
vello
> On Jun 7, 6:17 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > That can be nice anthem for those leaving Russia for better hunting
> > fields - like you.
>
> I left as a teenager in the late 1970s. My parents left because of
> professional discrimination against them and their children, as Jews.
>
>
>
> > But russians in Russia sure need some another song,
> > not "Farewell, fatherland".
>
> Why do you call it "Farewell, fatherland"?
Because those words do sound there constantly.
This is a song about
> Russian soldiers leaving their women and homes to defend their
> motherland in wars, like WW1 and WW2. Most will die.
>
> http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%89%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%...
>
> Where did you get the idea that these soldiers were "emigrating to
> better hunting fields"?
I don't get that idea. As always, it's your creation.
Are you sure that the fields of war are
> "better hunting fields" than peaceful life at home? Have you ever been
> in a battle, where 80% of soldiers on each side fall dead?
Well, a lot of estonians 2-3 generations back had this experience.
Still I don't want military song as anthem. Hardly flag and anthem are
places to talk about most dark times in history.
>
>
>
> > More, song itself is beautiful, but not
> > many countries do use military song as anthem. Take Germany, thay just
> > say they love their motherland and anything inside it over all things
> > in world.
> > Weird that you share musical preferences with Yabloko - with those
> > degenerats wanting to turn Russia into some "dermocratic" state like
> > France or Germany. Or Estonia.
>
> I share almost all Yavlinsky’s and Yabloko’s positions in the
> domestic are many – in the foreign relation spheres. Both of us are
> for democratic but centrally controlled Russia,
Democratic country is as centrally controlled as people wish - if we
talk about nation state. About empire, any nation must have right for
self determination up to seceding. Without that, empire turns to be a
"jail of nations".
and condemn Yeltsin’s
> criminal destruction and destabilization of Russia. Both of us want
> Russia to be a peaceful and responsible member of the international
> community, but we also want it to start vigorously defending its own
> security and interests as much as do other major democratic
> countries. Yabloko wants democracy but it does not mean that Russia
> should become a slave to other democratic countries, in the same way
> that USA and France are democracies but refuse to be slaves to other
> democratic countries. “Democracy” and “international weakness” are
> antonyms, not synonyms.
Read less putinist media. Who wants make Russia to slave for other
countries? And how can you see the way to democracy via from year to
year more totalitarian rule?
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 8, 10:26 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 6:17 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > Weird that you share musical preferences with Yabloko - with those
> > > degenerats wanting to turn Russia into some "dermocratic" state like
> > > France or Germany. Or Estonia.
> >
> > I share almost all Yavlinsky’s and Yabloko’s positions in the
> > domestic are many – in the foreign relation spheres. Both of us are
> > for democratic but centrally controlled Russia,
>
> Democratic country is as centrally controlled as people wish - if we
> talk about nation state.
>
Let’s not talk in tautologies and generalities. In my previous
article, I posted links to several concrete position papers by
Yabloko. I also posted their summaries in English. Do you agree with
these Yabloko positions?
vello
I was lazy to read them (I discuss with you, not with Yavlinski) but
basically they are sane people by me.
vello
vello wrote:
> On Jun 8, 10:26 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 6:17 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
> > > But russians in Russia sure need some another song,
> > > not "Farewell, fatherland".
> > Why do you call it "Farewell, fatherland"?
> Because those words do sound there constantly.
OK, it’s time to translate it:
Good-bye, home -
You translate it pretty wrong way - "otchii krai" IS land of fathers,
fatherland, not "home". As you know russian, it is not mistake but
just plain lying.
I agree: the German anthem “Deutschland, Deutschland über alles” is
unique and unsurpassed in its love for Fatherland. Here is just the
beginning:
Germany, Germany above all,
Above all in the world,
When, for protection and defence, it always
Takes a brotherly stand together.
From the Meuse to Memmel
From the Adige to the Belt,
Germany, Germany above everything,
Above everything in the world.
Oh, btw:
Meuse is in the Netherlands
Memmel is the city of Klajpeda in Lithuania
Adige is the second longest river in Italy flowing through the
province of Bolzano
So, in their anthem, Germans just express their love for their little
modest Fatherland incorporating all of Poland and Austria, big parts
of Lithuania and Czechoslovakia, a small part of Holland, and a big
part of Italy. Very touching! I can see how this song brings tears
to
your eyes. And I am sure our Polish and Lithuanian readers are
weeping
too. :-)
You say your IQ is over 70? Then you must understand that in 1841 when
those lyrics were written, all those places were german lands. When
wandering in Alto Adige, you still notice local people speak Deutsch.
For eastern part of Europe, areas mentioned were ethnically cleansed
from germans - shame for all of us. But you are plain stupid if you
ask from guy writing a song in 1841 to know European history of 20th
century and adjust his lyrics to years to come.
On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
> On Jun 8, 11:15 pm, dmitrijsfedot...@inbox.lv wrote:
> > > Well, a lot of estonians 2-3 generations back had this experience.
> > > Still I don't want military song as anthem. Hardly flag and
> > > anthem are places to talk about most dark times in history.
But Estonia and Russia are not the same thing. Being a tiny country,
Estonia could not win any big wars on its own. It just went from
being
a colony of one big bad European empire to another.
Well in 1920 we beat russians on Eastern and germans on southern front
- sometimes it happens. Karla, please chose one of two opportunities
excluding each other: A) EU is an Empire, B) Your IQ is at least 70.
But Russia has been independent for about 5 or 6 hundred years, much
of it as an empire. Wars brought enormous losses to Russia, but the
country is proud of its military victories over the Swedish Empire,
over Napoleon, its liberation of the Baltics from genocidal Turks,
and
the victory in WWII.
Why you don't add Georgian empire? And finnish, Estonian, Latvian,
Romanian, Hungarian Polish ones? Don't remember "genocidal Turks" here
in Baltics also.
> > Most of Russian history is dark.
To all peoples and lands, aggressions against them are darkness, but
Russia and a few other lucky countries have defeated all aggressors
in
the last 600 years or so. Thus, to them, war is also a proud story of
ultimate human sacrifice and heroism to end darkness and achieve
victory.
For that 600 years Russia become bigger by 600 times - so, when we
talk about Russian military, few attacks against Russia are by far not
typical - if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny Dukedom
of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
> Sure. This way need for an anthem talking about beauty of life is even
> more needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_anthem
A national anthem (also national hymn) is a generally patriotic
musical composition that evokes and eulogizes the history, traditions
and struggles of its people.
Look, this Slavyanka anthem doesn’t dwell on the dark suffering of
war. Nor does it contain any gloating or glorification of war. E.g.,
it never gloats about bombs bursting in air or about the need to
conquer everything and everybody, like the American Anthem, with
phrases like:
Then conquer we must ….
the foe's haughty host …
the bombs bursting in air …
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave…
O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!…
/The American Anthem was created in the War of 1812 against Britain
and was appropriately set to the tune of a popular British drinking
song./
Nor does Slavyanka call for the occupation of any other nation,
unlike
your beloved “Deutschland, Deutschland über alles”.
Say, idiot, witch parts on Earth Deutschlandlied is calling to occupy?
In original lyrics, it describes German nation in 1841. Today,
"geographical" verses are not in use any more.
Nor does Slavyanka lyrics represent a primitive caveman’s chant
repeating the same phrase again and again, and extolling the wonders
of monarchy and of licking the Queen’s ass, like the British Anthem:
sorry, you are just sick.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> 120. ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com View profile
>
> vello wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 10:26 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Jun 7, 6:17 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
> > > > But russians in Russia sure need some another song,
> > > > not "Farewell, fatherland".
> > > Why do you call it "Farewell, fatherland"?
> > Because those words do sound there constantly.
>
> OK, it’s time to translate it:
>
> Good-bye, home -
>
> fatherland, not "home".
>
No, "Otchiy kray" is not "fatherland" "Fatherland" is "Otechestvo".
"Otchiy kray" is the local area/principality/oblast where the person
grew up. Especially in poetry. For example:
Poetry of Aeksandr Tvatdovsky
Mat'-zemlia moya rodnaya,
Storona moya lesnaya,
Pridneprovskiy OTCHIY KRAY,
Zdravstvuy, syna privechay!
My mother, my native land,
My foresty side,
OTCHIY KRAY on the bank of Dnieper,
Say hello to your son!
Are the banks of Dnieper River a separate country?
>
> As you know russian, it is not mistake but
> just plain lying.
>
Wow. You are teaching me how to translate Russian poetry and even
accuse me of lying?! Let us see what **you** think these lyrics mean?
>
> That can be nice anthem for those leaving Russia for
> better hunting fields - like you. But russians in Russia
> sure need some another song, not "Farewell, fatherland".
>
Aha, so, in your highly educated and undisputable opinion, all these
soldiers, whose Motherland is beckoning them to valour, are boarding
the trains to emigrate for "better hunting fields" like I did? I don't
know what the soldiers in you country do, but when Russia calls
Russian soldiers to valour, they go to fight and to die to defend
their brides and homes, not to run into emigration like rats. And I
hear, Finns do too, to the last man, unlike some other countries.
Shall I teach you the Estonian language and Estonian poetry and accuse
you of lying about the Estonian language, Sir?
I take false accusations of lying very seriously, dear Sir. You, Sir,
are an ignoramus of no dignity nor integrity.
>
> You say your IQ is over 70?
>
As we say in Russia, everybody understands according to the limit of
his own abilities. "Kazhdyj ponimaet v meru svoikh sposobnostej".
When the Incas first saw the Spanish Conquistadors, they were amused
to see the Spaniards wear "cooking pots" on their heads. But when
they found out that the Spanish don't even use these "pots" for
cooking when camping, they decided that the Spaniards were retards.
The very next day, the Incas paid dearly for their presumptiveness, as
the "pots” on the "retarded" Spanish heads protected them against
Incas' arrows.
Stay well and defiant: we need people like you, who defy Darwin's
laws.
J. Anderson
"vello" <vell...@hot.ee> wrote in message news:fa5f0ab7-6780-488d-addc-
> You say your IQ is over 70?
Ei, ei, vanus on �le 70.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
Let me understand: you are discussing with me my realtion to Yabloko's
views and tastes, but you deem it unnecessary to find out what
Yabloko's views are?
On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
>You say your IQ is over 70?
>
LOL.
>
>>>> Yabloko’s Position on South Ossetia
>
>>>> ... Yabloko finds it likely that Saakashvili has
>>>> committed mass extermination of Ossetian people.
>>>> The West played the role of a provocateur.
>>>> Hinting that Georgia may join NATO emboldened
>>>> Saakashvili and partially provoked him into aggression.
>>>> It is very surprising that the West has taken such a
>>>> one-sided position.
>
>
> ... but basically they are sane people by me.
>
Nice to know. I thought it was mandatory for our overwhelmingly
brilliant and intelligent Baltic posters, like you, to deem it insane
to view NATO and the West as provocateurs.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message news:fa5f0ab7-6780-488d-addc-
> > You say your IQ is over 70?
>
>
Only in terms of wisdom.
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
I agree. Here is another Yabloko position that, I am sure, you will
find very sane:
http://www.kavkaz-uzel.ru/newstext/news/id/1186035.html
The Bronza Soldier Controversy
The Vice-chairman of Yabloko said: "The very act of re-burial is
barbaric. From now on, this is going to be a historical verdict
towards Estonians. Coffin-digging is unbeconing, this line must never
be crossed in a civilised society"
However, he also condemned the undiplomatic way the Russian government
handled this incident.
http://www.svobodanews.ru/content/transcript/391277.html
vello
> On Jun 8, 11:32 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > Let’s not talk in tautologies and generalities. In my previous
> > > article, I posted links to several concrete position papers by
> > > Yabloko. I also posted their summaries in English. Do you agree with
> > > these Yabloko positions?
>
> > I was lazy to read them (I discuss with you, not with Yavlinski)
>
> Let me understand: you are discussing with me my realtion to Yabloko's
> views and tastes, but you deem it unnecessary to find out what
> Yabloko's views are?
I know them in basis - and I'm not too interested in their wiews on
some particular single case, so I'm not interested in reading long
copy-pastes here.
>
> On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
>
>
> >You say your IQ is over 70?
>
> LOL.
Of course one with IQ in range of shoe number may type LOL as answer.
But as you pretend to number higher then 43-45, don't delete my
question but answer it. Here it again, without your castration.
You say your IQ is over 70? Then you must understand that in 1841
when
those lyrics were written, all those places were german lands. When
wandering in Alto Adige, you still notice local people speak Deutsch.
For eastern part of Europe, areas mentioned were ethnically cleansed
from germans - shame for all of us. But you are plain stupid if you
ask from guy writing a song in 1841 to know European history of 20th
century and adjust his lyrics to years to come.
>
>
>
> >>>> Yabloko’s Position on South Ossetia
>
> >>>> ... Yabloko finds it likely that Saakashvili has
> >>>> committed mass extermination of Ossetian people.
> >>>> The West played the role of a provocateur.
> >>>> Hinting that Georgia may join NATO emboldened
> >>>> Saakashvili and partially provoked him into aggression.
> >>>> It is very surprising that the West has taken such a
> >>>> one-sided position.
>
> > ... but basically they are sane people by me.
>
> Nice to know. I thought it was mandatory for our overwhelmingly
> brilliant and intelligent Baltic posters, like you, to deem it insane
> to view NATO and the West as provocateurs.- Hide quoted text -
>
Again you act as cheap corner advocate wanting to "win" the case even
if he knows his client is criminal. Yabloko is basically pro-democracy
party. Other thing, to make politics, one had to adjust a bit to
popular public opinion in country. Both you, me and Yavlinski know
very well that there is no need "to find it likely" who fucks who in
Ossetia and Abkhazia - numbers of %% of different ethnicities are
freely available for different years, so just a bit math.
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message news:fa5f0ab7-6780-488d-addc-
> > You say your IQ is over 70?
>
:-)
ostap_be...@hotmail.com
I am not asking him to do so. This song was perfect for the times that
it was written: 1841. However, by modern standard, the first stanza
is outdated and refers to lands that now belong to other countries,
including the Baltic republic of Lithuania.
How would you like if Russia chose as its anthem a song, written in
1841, that describes Russia as a land that includes Estonia, Finland,
Moldova, Ukraine, Poland and more than a dozen other lands that are
now independent? Even if the Russian omitted these references from the
official part that's sung, people in ex-USSR/ex-Russia would complain.
In fact, they do complain! The current Russian anthem is universally
called "stalinist" because its original text contains highly
objectionable text, including the praise for the Communist party,
Lenin and Stalin. Well, the new text is totally different and has no
offensive words at all. Yet people still accuse it of being
stalinist.
I am not criticizing the authors of any song that was chosen as some
country anthem. I just responded with sarcasm (which was lost on you)
to your criticism of Yabloko's idea of making the Slavyanka march the
Russian anthem.
For your information, Farewell of Slavyanka (Slavic woman) was written
in 1912 and had no lyrics. However, with each new war, people
informally created a multitude of lyrics for their causes: Russian
students that volunteered for WW1; White Army in Civil War; Siberian
Army in Civil War; Polish Partisans in WW2, etc. Because of its
association with the White Army, Stalin banned the Slavyanka melody
and it re-appeared in Russia only in 1957. Since then, numerous new
poems were written for Slavyanka. They were all totally different but
had one thing in common: because the name is Farewell of Slavyanka,
they start with a soldier saying goodbye to his bride to go to war.
The text I grew up with was that of the famous dissident poet
Alexander Galich, written in the 1960s.
In my first post, addressed to Rostyk, I posted two links of Ukrainian
Air Force graduates marching to Slavyanka march with no words, one
more link of the Norwegian Army marching to Slavyanka march with no
words, and one more link to a beautifully sung song set to words of a
well-respected writer Lazarev, written in 1984. In an interview,
Lazarev said that he wrote the lyrics to fit the atmosphere that
existed at the time the music was composed: 1912. Lazarev's lyrics is
one of dozens and dozens of lyrics that have been written for
Slavyanka. Lazarev's lyrics too are about Russian soldiers bidding
farewell to their brides and going off to an unspecified war. In the
video clip that I posted, the soldier was dressed in the Russian
military uniform circa early 20th sentury/WW1.
I had no intention to say that Lazarev's lyrics should become the
official text of the Russian anthem. In fact, I would expect the
Russian anthem to be just the Slavyanka March without any words.
Unexpectedly, I received a response from you, in which you:
1. Accused me of emigrating from Russia "for better hunting fields"
2. Asserted that Lazarev text is about emigrants like myself and thus
is unfit for Russia
3. Claimed that the text of the German anthem was an example to
follow, as it was about "love their motherland and anything inside it
over all things in world."
4. Expressed your opinion that Russia should not have a military
march as its anthem and claimed that few countries use military songs
as their anthems
In my response, I:
1. Provided Wiki's definition: "A national anthem is a generally
patriotic musical composition that evokes and eulogizes the history,
traditions and struggles of its people"
2. Pointed out to you that the anthem of my own country - USA - is a
military song with much more objectionable lyrics (than, say, Galich's
or Lazarev's lyrics to Slavyanka) from the pacifist point of view, as
it talks about conquests and about bombs bursting in battles.
3. Pointed out that the German anthem is based on the song
"Deutschland, Deutschland über alles") and the stanza that **you**
pointed as the one that Russia should imitate
>
> Take Germany, thay just say they love their motherland
> and anything inside it over all things in world.
>
is the first stanza:
Germany, Germany above all,
Above all in the world,
When, for protection and defence, it always
takes a brotherly stand together.
From the Meuse to the Neman,
From the Adige to the Belt,
|: Germany, Germany above everything,
Above everything in the world. :|
That is, you want Russia to imitate this kind of lyrics. Not that
there was anything wrong about these lyrics back in 1841...
4. Pointed out the silliness of the British Anthem, which, btw, also
contains not simply military but militaristiv and maybe even offensive
text:
O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks
In response, you wrote tons of garbage about how Russia was an
imperialist power and used its wars to attack and conquer other
peoples, and thus has no right to mention soldiers in its anthem
(which it doesn't, btw).
Well, wasn't Great Britain a much bigger imperialist than Russia?
Didn't most of its wars were launched to conquer other peoples? As I
recall, the "Sun never set on the British Empire" and conquering and
civilising India and third world countries was "the white man's
burden".
So, why don't you complain about the militarist text in the British
Anthem?
In summary:
0. The anthems are supposed to eulogizes the history and struggles of
the people
1. There is no official text to Slavyanka March and I never suggested
that if Slavyanka becomes the Russian anthem, then there should be any
lyrics to this anthem.
2. Lazarev's poem is that of pointing out the pains of war not the
glory of war
3. Most anthems, that I am aware of, contain much more militarist text
than Lazarev's
4. In my opinion, the real reason why you are so upset at the idea of
mentioning Russian soldiers is because Russia and then USSR colonised
your own country. If you were from India, you would be attacking the
British anthem instead. But should the British anthem be changed?
vello
It may be news for you, but surely germans are aware of changes on map
of europe and "geographical verses" are not part of anthem from 1945.
>
> How would you like if Russia chose as its anthem a song, written in
> 1841, that describes Russia as a land that includes Estonia, Finland,
> Moldova, Ukraine, Poland and more than a dozen other lands that are
> now independent? Even if the Russian omitted these references from the
> official part that's sung, people in ex-USSR/ex-Russia would complain.
Why? I think there is a lot of nice old russian songs about bygone
wars, some songs about Turkish war are still popular even in Estonia.
>
> In fact, they do complain! The current Russian anthem is universally
> called "stalinist" because its original text contains highly
> objectionable text, including the praise for the Communist party,
> Lenin and Stalin. Well, the new text is totally different and has no
> offensive words at all. Yet people still accuse it of being
> stalinist.
With soviet anthem, problem is not in lyrics. People who don't like it
think that rearranging old soviet anthem reflects ideas about rebirth
of Soviet Union in Russia.
> British anthem instead. But should the British anthem be changed?- Hide quoted text -
>
My god, Karla, I just think Russians must find something to love in
their country outside of overused military things. All big countries
have a long record of wars but except Russia, no one puts military
past as the sole source of national glory. No way I have bad feelings
about Russian people, they have unique history of being constantly
ruled by gangs killing more their own people then those of other
lands. You say you share Yabloko wiews but any critics to Putin regime
you read as critics of Russia.
I want to see Russia being nice and peaceful like Germany ofr France.
It would be good for russians at first - and for all neighbours of
that unhappy nation only second. But again russians are hostages of
one sick carlic: do you imagine France declaring that his worst
enemies are ...Luxembourg, Liechtenstein or Andorra? That French
president would present occupying part of Luxembourg as shining
military victory?
So my only idea was to hope russians get out from trap of military
glory and sufferings and start to understand that living conditions
and freedom of Volodya and Manya are much-much more important then
great battles of the past.
J. Anderson
> It may be news for you, but surely germans are aware
> of changes on map of europe and "geographical verses"
> are not part of anthem from 1945.
The first verse is actually forbidden. Only the third verse is in use, the
one about Unity, Justice and Freedom -- hardly something to complain about,
eh?
But my favourite is the second verse. It's about wine, women and music!
Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
Sollen in der Welt behalten
Ihren alten sch�nen Klang,
Uns zu edler Tat begeistern
Unser ganzes Leben lang.
Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
(German women, German loyalty,
German wine and German song,
Shall retain in the world,
Their old lovely ring
To inspire us to noble deeds
Our whole life long.
German women, German loyalty,
German wine and German song.)
Of course the German word 'Treue' has a much deeper meaning than the anemic
expression 'loyalty'.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
Moscow? Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
The first is stupid. The second is clearly a divide-and-conquer
balkanization idea aimed at creating fratricidal wars in Russia a la
Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> news:38f7892f-f7a0-4747...@f19g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > It may be news for you, but surely germans are aware
> > of changes on map of europe and "geographical verses"
> > are not part of anthem from 1945.
>
> The first verse is actually forbidden. Only the third verse is in use, the
> one about Unity, Justice and Freedom -- hardly something to complain about,
> eh?
>
> But my favourite is the second verse. It's about wine, women and music!
>
> Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
> Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
> Sollen in der Welt behalten
> Uns zu edler Tat begeistern
> Unser ganzes Leben lang.
> Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
> Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
>
> (German women, German loyalty,
> German wine and German song,
> Shall retain in the world,
> Their old lovely ring
> To inspire us to noble deeds
> Our whole life long.
> German women, German loyalty,
> German wine and German song.)
>
> Of course the German word 'Treue' has a much deeper meaning than the anemic
> expression 'loyalty'.
In estonian it is "truudus" - in the same meaning as in German. Do
english-speakers really lack that word? Faithfullness? fidelity? But
you are right, meaning and idea of Deutschlandlied is in its best in
second stanza.
vello
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
>
>
> > if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> > killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> > Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
> Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> Moscow?
then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
> a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
Again you were unable to read my post - nothing about tiny fürstentums
in my post. Try again!
> The first is stupid. The second is clearly a divide-and-conquer
> balkanization idea aimed at creating fratricidal wars in Russia a la
> Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
Again you answer to questions created by ...yourself. Read my original
post, all I want to say is there. Hundreds of nations lived on area
where for now is Russia. No nation on Earth will give up independence
as gift. It's not my business is Russia built up like German nation
200 years ago or as nation state - well, latter seems more natural for
me. But I'm sad about nations whose future was cut dead in process of
creating Russian Empire - as sad as about Inka or Maya civilizations
in America. And what I really hate: it is will to bring Cortezian
morale into 21 century.
The Black Monk
Cortez ended a bloodthirsty civilization whose ceremonies relied on
human sacrifice (estimates of the numbers sacrificed over the
centuries was in the 100,000s range - compared to 2,000 victims total
due to Torquemada's Inquisition). Assembly lines of victims getting
their hearts ripped out while they were still alive, priests dressed
in costumes made out of human skin....The Spaniards wisely saw the
Aztec gods as some kind of demons and were zealous in eradicating
them. Perhaps if there were a little bit more Cortez in the 20th
century there would have been a lot less evil.
regards,
BM
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jun 10, 3:26 am, ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > How would you like if Russia chose as its anthem a song, written in
> > 1841, that describes Russia as a land that includes Estonia, Finland,
> > Moldova, Ukraine, Poland and more than a dozen other lands that are
> > now independent? Even if the Russian omitted these references from the
> > official part that's sung, people in ex-USSR/ex-Russia would complain.
>
> Why? I think there is a lot of nice old russian songs about bygone
> wars, some songs about Turkish war are still popular even in Estonia.
>
Turkish War?! Funny that you mention. Farewell of Slavianka is exactly
that: an old russian song about Turkish/Balkan War:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_of_Slavianka
Farewell of Slavianka is a Russian patriotic march, written by the
composer Vasily Agapkin in honour of the Bulgarian women bidding
farewell to their husbands who left for the First Balkan War. The
march premiered in Tambov in 1912 and was subsequently released as a
single. Slavyanka means "Slavic woman".
In fact, the only Russian song about the Turkish War that I can recall
is Farewell of Slavianka. Isn’t Farewell of Slavianka exactly the song
that you are referring to? If not – what other song are you talking
about?
>
> > In fact, they do complain! The current Russian anthem is universally
> > called "stalinist" because its original text contains highly
> > objectionable text, including the praise for the Communist party,
> > Lenin and Stalin. Well, the new text is totally different and has no
> > offensive words at all. Yet people still accuse it of being
> > stalinist.
>
> With soviet anthem, problem is not in lyrics. People who don't like it
> think that rearranging old soviet anthem reflects ideas about rebirth
> of Soviet Union in Russia.
>
And I agree with that. That’s why Yabloko and I want to revert to a
traditional pre-Bolshevik Russian melody.
>
> My god, Karla, I just think Russians must find something to love in
> their country outside of overused military things.
>
The "military" thing about Agapkin's Farewell of Slavyanka is that it
is a march dedicated to the memory of Bulgarian soldiers and their
brides in the Balkan War that you so much admire, and thus has been
used by military marching bands all over the world, including Russia,
Poland, Ukraine and Norway. Are you saying that military marches,
without any military lyrics, should not be used as national anthems?
Isn't Anton right when he wrote that the main purpose of anthems these
days is to motivate athletes in their athletic battles at
championships and Olympics? Don't you think that fast and emotional
marches, created for the purpose of motivating soldiers in their
battles, are good for that?
And why is using the music of a military march about your beloved
Turkish War worse than still using and singing the American and
British anthems which contain hate-filled sentences that call for
conquest of enemies:
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air…
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes…
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore….
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave…
Then conquer we must….
“The blood of their foul footsteps' pollution”! Every time we go to a
hockey game, my son and I are supposed to join the rest of the
spectators in singing these vile, evil, hateful words. And what are
the “hireling and slaves” that the Anthem doesn’t want to be saved?
Why such cruelty towards slaves? The only slave-owning country in
Norht America at that time was USA itself.
O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her [our Queen’s] enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks
Is that the kind of words you want to hear in an anthem? Should
Russians also use some old song that spew hatred towards “enemies” and
asks God to destroy these enemies? I recall Stalin’s favourite death
sentence: “enemy of the people”. Sounds more democratic than “enemies
of the Queen”.
>
> All big countries
> have a long record of wars but except Russia, no one puts military
> past as the sole source of national glory.
>
Are we still talking about anthems or are you changing the subject to
that of general russophobia? If general russophobia - I am not going
to bite. I will say this: the main source of pride for me and all the
Russians that I personally know is culture - poetry, prose, theater,
film, art, music/dance, chess, sports - and Russia's cultural
achievements and admired and revered World-wide. But that's enough.
If we are still talking anthems - then I repeat: using a march melody/
rhythm is a good idea for any country. Especially when it is about
your own favourite: the Turkish War. What is not as good of an idea
would be to sing lyrics containing hatred towards and calls for
conquest of enemies, as do USA and UK anthems. In fact, mentioning
"enemies" at all in an anthem is a very bad idea. Why these words have
not been removed – I don’t understand.
>
> I want to see Russia being nice and peaceful like Germany ofr France.
>
Of course you do. So do I. But I want Russia to go to the original
source: to my country of America. USA is the Leader of the Free
World. If Russia wants greatest freedoms and democracies, it should
learn to behave like USA both internally and externally. And since
Germany, France and USA are the closest and warmest friends and fellow
NATO allies, I am sure that if Russia imitates USA - Germany, France
and all other countries that admire and militarily ally with USA will
be very happy. Won't you be happy?
One country that Russia should stop imitating is the country ruled and
controlled by an abominable criminal oligarch (7 indictments and 4
convictions on the charges of racketeering, money laundering,
influencing judges, corruption and every other white collar crime in
existence) who uses his ill-gotten $billions to buy elections; owns
and/or controls 6 out of 7 top TV networks; and who while married,
engages in sex orgies with 18-year-old girls/whores and with former
leaders of other countries.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> > > killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> > > Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
Moscow was started as a miniscule settlement in the huge 12th century
nation of Rus. Rus' first capital was the northern city of Novgorod
the Great. Then its ruler moved the Rus capital to the-then small town
of Kiev, primarily because the gentry of Novgorod were getting on his
nerve. Thanks to the inflow from other Rus cities and provinces, Kiev
grew like crazy and by the time Moscow was founded, Kiev became a big,
strong, beautiful capital of Rus. But Mongols came and separated Rus
into 3 parts that later became Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Kiev
became the capital of Ukraine, while various Russian cities fought to
become the capital of Russia, and the city of Moscow won through its
cunning and brute force. Then the Russian capital was moved to St.
Petersburg. Then it returned back to Moscow. And thanks to the inflow
from other Russian cities and provinces (including my own
grandparents), Moscow and St. Petersburg grew like crazy and became
big, strong, beautiful capitals of Russia.
So what? That's pretty much how all other countries ended up selecting
their capitals.
>
> Hundreds of nations lived on area
> where for now is Russia. No nation on Earth will give up independence
> as gift. But I'm sad about nations whose future was cut dead in process of
> creating Russian Empire - as sad as about Inka or Maya civilizations
> in America.
>
How about Basques, Gaulls/Celts/Brits, Abkhazians, Spanish Moors,
Gagauzes, Prussians and many-many other nations in Europe that either
don’t have a nation of their own or have disappeared altogether? How
about the Christian Armenio-Greek natives of Asia Minor all gobbled up
by Turkish invaders?
Yes, the Rus nation assimilated and/or conquered various non-Slavic
tribes. But the same happened in the other European countries: UK,
Spain, France, Germany. Also dozens of different "nations" assimilated
and or conquered, and then fused into one modern nation. And
certainly, my country of USA was built on the bones dozens if not
hundreds of various Native American tribes, who used to own all of
North America but have almost disappeared by now.
Why do you always harp on the way how various ethnicities were
dissolved into Russia, but never complain about the disappearance of
fellow Baltic Prussians under German rule?
I will tell you why. Because your own country’s suffering came from
the Soviet Union. So, you don’t really want to talk about the pains of
other nations at the hands of countries that are now your NATO allies.
You want to turn every topic of discussion into yet another tedious
rehashing of Russia’s crime, including those committed by the tiny
town of Moscow 800 years ago. To the point that when we discuss Iran
and Israel, you say “oh by the way!” and change the topic to
expressing your disgust at some quote from some second-rate
nationalist Russian writer.
>
> And what I really hate: it is will to bring Cortezian
> morale into 21 century.
>
I agree. In our times, national borders should be sacred, and no
country should annex or occupy, in part or in whole, any other country
unless authorized to do by the UN. And with so many modern points of
contention and strife - Abkhazia/Ossetia, Kosovo, Iraq,
Transdniestria, Basque country, Afghanistan, Israel/Palestine, Iran
(soon) - all these conflicts should be solved peacefully through
negotiations and through reaching a fair, thoughtful and comprehensive
set of international laws concerning how to resolve inter-ethnic
conflicts and which ethnic groups deserve independence and which
don't. There should be also a prescribed punishment for countries
that break UN law. For example, the international law specifically
states that country A can use force against country B only if either
country B had attacked country A first – or if such force is
authorized by the UN, as it was with the US invasion of Iraq. However,
when USA, UK and several other countries attacked Yugoslavia in 1999
and Iraq in 20003, they purposefully went against the will of the UN
and should have been severely punished. But they didn’t even receive a
slap on the wrist. And this has set up horrible precedents.
Let's stop rehashing past history. Let's talk about how to make the
Present and the Future peaceful, prosperous, just and fair. Do we
agree now?
captain!
"Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_be...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5f1a6ce3-8746-4dc1...@b6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
/////////////////////
lol. you had to throw in that last comment didn't ya? :)
captain!
On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
>
>
> > if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> > killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> > Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
> Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> Moscow?
Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
> a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
Again you were unable to read my post - nothing about tiny f�rstentums
in my post. Try again!
> The first is stupid. The second is clearly a divide-and-conquer
> balkanization idea aimed at creating fratricidal wars in Russia a la
> Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
Again you answer to questions created by ...yourself. Read my original
post, all I want to say is there. Hundreds of nations lived on area
where for now is Russia. No nation on Earth will give up independence
as gift. It's not my business is Russia built up like German nation
200 years ago or as nation state - well, latter seems more natural for
me. But I'm sad about nations whose future was cut dead in process of
creating Russian Empire - as sad as about Inka or Maya civilizations
in America. And what I really hate: it is will to bring Cortezian
morale into 21 century.
//////////////////////////
don't worry too much for those ancient civilizations. if things keep
following the pattern that they have since the beginning of human
civilization, what began with clans and evolved through the steps to nations
will again be absorbed into something larger. russia will go, the usa will
go, along with all the rest.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:5f1a6ce3-8746-4dc1...@b6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
I don't know about you but when I read this rant about "tiny Dukedom
of Moscovy", I took it to imply that somehow Russia was a tiny
miniscule place at that time. Which is of course false since the
territory of Rus was huge, with lots of large Russian cities like
Novgorod, Pskov, Suzdal, Vladimir, Rostov, etc. Moscow itself was a
tiny villlage located in the Vladimir-Suzdal principality. Thus,
implying that Russia was nothing more than this tiny village of Moscow
is insane.
As I recall, Paris, Berlin and Washington, DC too were at some point
small.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> > > killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> > > Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
> > Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> > Moscow?
>
> Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
> then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
> capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>
> Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
>
> > a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
>
> in my post. Try again!
>
> > The first is stupid. The second is clearly a divide-and-conquer
> > balkanization idea aimed at creating fratricidal wars in Russia a la
> > Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
>
> Again you answer to questions created by ...yourself. Read my original
> post, all I want to say is there. Hundreds of nations lived on area
> where for now is Russia. No nation on Earth will give up independence
> as gift. It's not my business is Russia built up like German nation
> 200 years ago or as nation state - well, latter seems more natural for
> me. But I'm sad about nations whose future was cut dead in process of
> creating Russian Empire - as sad as about Inka or Maya civilizations
> in America. And what I really hate: it is will to bring Cortezian
> morale into 21 century.
>
> //////////////////////////
>
> don't worry too much for those ancient civilizations. if things keep
> following the pattern that they have since the beginning of human
> civilization, what began with clans and evolved through the steps to nations
> will again be absorbed into something larger. russia will go, the usa will
> go, along with all the rest.
>
Except for Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine. To assure this,
people have already created a special Globe and Map of Ukraine:
http://www.tonnel.ru/digest/file/207045750_tonnel.jpg
http://www.34kurs.ru/pic/mapa_full.jpg
:-)
captain!
//////////////////
vello doesn't rant. that's why he's better than the average newsnet poster.
captain!
On Jun 12, 6:11 pm, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender
> Jr."<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> > > killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> > > Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
> > Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> > Moscow?
>
> Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
> then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
> capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>
> Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
>
> > a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
>
http://www.tonnel.ru/digest/file/207045750_tonnel.jpg
http://www.34kurs.ru/pic/mapa_full.jpg
:-)
///////////////////
heh heh, that is funny, but you dont need to worry about it because you're
in america. the american globe just has america sitting alone on an
otherwise featureless oceanic sphere.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:acf27a82-3908-467d...@v35g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
OK. He "harps".
Vladimir Makarenko
Correct me if I am wrong but the last comment is yours?
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
This is what all indicators point to.
People are so hostile to incoming future because it robs them of their past.
VM.
vello
> captain! wrote:
> > "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
> >news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> >>> if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> >>> killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> >>> Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
> >> Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> >> Moscow?
> > Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
> > then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
> > capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>
> > Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
> >> a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
>
> > in my post. Try again!
>
> >> The first is stupid. The second is clearly a divide-and-conquer
> >> balkanization idea aimed at creating fratricidal wars in Russia a la
> >> Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
>
> > Again you answer to questions created by ...yourself. Read my original
> > post, all I want to say is there. Hundreds of nations lived on area
> > where for now is Russia. No nation on Earth will give up independence
> > as gift. It's not my business is Russia built up like German nation
> > 200 years ago or as nation state - well, latter seems more natural for
> > me. But I'm sad about nations whose future was cut dead in process of
> > creating Russian Empire - as sad as about Inka or Maya civilizations
> > in America. And what I really hate: it is will to bring Cortezian
> > morale into 21 century.
>
> > //////////////////////////
>
> > don't worry too much for those ancient civilizations. if things keep
> > following the pattern that they have since the beginning of human
> > civilization, what began with clans and evolved through the steps to nations
> > will again be absorbed into something larger. russia will go, the usa will
> > go, along with all the rest.
>
> This is what all indicators point to.
> People are so hostile to incoming future because it robs them of their past.
>
> VM.
Eventually things most probably go towards single nation/language on
Earth. But for our time, directly opposide is dominent - today there
are much more independent states then 100 or 50 years ago. And
prospect that, say, Belgium or some other country will broke appart
seems much more probable by me then prospect of unification of
different nations into one country. In past, "absorbation" of nations
into something larger was 99% via imperialist wars. For today, there
is not so much imperial thinking left, so what would be the motivation
for nations to unite into one country? (I put 99% instead of 100 just
to avoid falling into trap with some single arguable case in the other
end of the world - but honestly, 100% is closer to truth then 99% by
me). I do know Syria and Egypt did something like uniting but, even if
it would turn to be successful, it would be case like unification of
Russian or German fürstentums into Russian/German state.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:620aaf52-3273-4578...@d25g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 12, 6:11 pm, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> >news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender
> > Jr."<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > > if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> > > > killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> > > > Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
> > > Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> > > Moscow?
>
> > Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
> > then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
> > capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>
> > Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
>
> > > a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
>
> > in my post. Try again!
>
> > > The first is stupid. The second is clearly a divide-and-conquer
> > > balkanization idea aimed at creating fratricidal wars in Russia a la
> > > Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
>
> > Again you answer to questions created by ...yourself. Read my original
> > post, all I want to say is there. Hundreds of nations lived on area
> > where for now is Russia. No nation on Earth will give up independence
> > as gift. It's not my business is Russia built up like German nation
> > 200 years ago or as nation state - well, latter seems more natural for
> > me. But I'm sad about nations whose future was cut dead in process of
> > creating Russian Empire - as sad as about Inka or Maya civilizations
> > in America. And what I really hate: it is will to bring Cortezian
> > morale into 21 century.
>
> > //////////////////////////
>
> > don't worry too much for those ancient civilizations. if things keep
> > following the pattern that they have since the beginning of human
> > civilization, what began with clans and evolved through the steps to
> > nations
> > will again be absorbed into something larger. russia will go, the usa will
> > go, along with all the rest.
>
> Except for Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine. To assure this,
> people have already created a special Globe and Map of Ukraine:
>
>
> :-)
>
> ///////////////////
>
> heh heh, that is funny, but you dont need to worry about it because you're
> in america. the american globe just has america sitting alone on an
> otherwise featureless oceanic sphere.
>
Have you seen the famous New Yorker cover from 1976 showing the
westward view of the World seen from their 9th Avenue windows:
Proves that you can see Russia not only from Alaska but from New York
as well.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Of course. This language will be a highly simplified version of modern
Pidgin English
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
>
> This is what all indicators point to.
> People are so hostile to incoming future because it robs them of their past.
>
Yes. The future ain't what it used to be.
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Jun 13, 7:19 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> captain! wrote:
>>> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>>> news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>>> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>>>>> if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
>>>>> killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
>>>>> Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>>>> Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
>>>> Moscow?
>>> Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
>>> then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
>>> capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>>> Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
>>>> a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
>
Everything is right but you apply the notion of "a state" which is not
applied anymore. It was when XIX-XX cent a state obligation was to
provide physical security: external and internal and that's it.
It is very different and wider today. Besides states started to get
standards on economic and legal issues. Supra state structure is in
place as EU.
Everywhere this process and structures will be unique as unique are the
participants - Arabs their way, SAmerica its own, etc. But it is
inevitable. Evolution - evolve or die out. Or get yourself a niche and
rot in cave like North Korea or Burma.
Those nations which are mindful to preserve their "genes" are spending
on their cutlural preservation - maybe there will be less Bently's on
the streets but more libraries around the country.
As I see it - small nations must lead the trend and have dedicated
programs of "cyber back up" of their cultures, because as of today even
big nations are on the path of irrevocable losses but they have much
more time because they have much more human carriers of their cultures.
What I find funny is that nobody does it really - despite the fact this
is so easy sale, people still are very "tribal" and grandma/pa songs is
their very soft spot.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Today one human generation goes through several generations of
technology, before it was otherwise - one level of technology lasted a
few generations of humans.
Accumulation and Transfer of knowledge becomes a problem.
We are going to bed without an idea what will be the breaking news in
the morning.
Which reminds me a short story of Silverberg (IIRC the name) how a guy
run into a civilization which language was evolving over night.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> On Jun 13, 12:55 pm, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>> On Jun 13, 7:19 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> captain! wrote:
>>>> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>>>> news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
>>>> <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>>>>>> if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
>>>>>> killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
>>>>>> Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>>>>> Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
>>>>> Moscow?
>>>> Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
>>>> then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
>>>> capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>>>> Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
>>>>> a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
Strongly disagree - depends on the customer and despite our modern day
decline in an average customer quality I think in a long term it will
radically improve: learning will be not anymore be an enterprise of
personal conquest but rather cheap cyber service: the old question will
stay however - what one can do with all the knowledge.
One of my favorite "sci-fi" books is Clifford Simak's "City" - how it
will happen step by step. Brilliant.
VM.
captain!
"Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:wsSdnT3BNLlRUq7X...@giganews.com...
no. it was karla's.
captain!
///////////////////
yes, and also the feeling that one's very identity is being absorbed and
collectivized.
captain!
On Jun 13, 7:19 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> captain! wrote:
> > "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
> >news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr."
> > <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> >>> if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> >>> killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> >>> Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
> >> Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> >> Moscow?
> > Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
> > then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
> > capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>
> > Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
> >> a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
>
Russian or German f�rstentums into Russian/German state.
////////////////////
the argument for unification would be mostly power.
military
economic
cultural
etc...
in some cases , efficiency could increase, although the EU shows the other
side of the coin.
the agruments against unification are numerous. like you said, it's not
something we will have to deal with during our lifetimes (at least not
voluntarily).
captain!
>
> One of my favorite "sci-fi" books is Clifford Simak's "City" - how it will
> happen step by step. Brilliant.
>
> VM.
sounds like an interesting book.
captain!
damn. i had no idea you liked such interesting books.
captain!
On Jun 13, 12:48 am, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:620aaf52-3273-4578...@d25g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 12, 6:11 pm, "captain!" <whomsoe...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> >news:577dd688-1d45-42e6...@y9g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 11, 5:00 am, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender
> > Jr."<ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jun 9, 2:53 am, vello <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote:
>
> > > > if you say "Russian soldier" for all of the world it is guy
> > > > killing-occupying tens, maybe hundreds of nations to make tiny
> > > > Dukedom of Moscovy to the biggest by territory country on the Earth.
>
> > > Are you saying that the capital of Russia should be moved away from
> > > Moscow?
>
> > Why should you ask what I'm saying? Your english is much-much better
> > then mine - just read what I type. No, there is nothing about moving
> > capital from Moscow. Try again - read slowly and without anger.
>
> > Or that Russia should not be united and should be broken into
>
> > > a multitude of tiny states a la Germany and Italy in the Middle Ages?
>
////////////////////
i know that pic :)
i have one done in a similar style for vancouver hanging in the basement. i
think it may have been inspired by the new york version (unless the guy
travelled around doing them for various cities).
here's a sad little jpg of the america on globe pic, which is a small
version of the one that inspired my initial comment above.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3577/3405557082_c11a3e3cbc_m.jpg
Vladimir Makarenko
I am not sure what face they put on the danger I think many different -
see Andrius - for him it is Jews and CIA. But there definitely appears
some emptiness which leads to angry nostalgia.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
Nope. Economy.
Power becomes more and more distributed and requires close cooperation
to be activated.
>
> in some cases , efficiency could increase, although the EU shows the other
> side of the coin.
>
That argument like yours about EU has a huge hole in it: tell me (and
with numbers) what there would be if there were no EU.
> the agruments against unification are numerous. like you said, it's not
> something we will have to deal with during our lifetimes (at least not
> voluntarily).
Unification is not binary - either unification or zero. It is slow
gradual evolutionary process "from here to eternity".
And it happens right now.
The trick is there will be no "end" point - every arrangement is transient.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
It is a piece of art and intellectual treat.
Imagine my amazement when I - in the very beginning - found out that
most aborigines here never heard of such outstanding writer/thinker.
Quite upsetting. Once there was a very nice sci fi bookstore "Forbidden
Planet" - had everything (you will not find Simak in Barnes & Noble or
Borders - they are trash keepers). Went out of business years ago. Sucks.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
I also like Simpsons.
I am Bart and Homer in a single person.
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
That is about right. What's the gig?
(btw, make a note - North Western passage IS the US property according
to the map.)
VM.
>
>
>
Vladimir Makarenko
Nope - it was yours, I quote: "lol". Which expressed your opinion (sort
of) about the message, what counts as a comment.
VM.
J. Anderson
> In estonian it is "truudus" - in the same meaning as in German.
> Do english-speakers really lack that word?
Probably. Maybe they lack "truudus" not only as a word?
And here's the Slavyanka in Finnish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haiYhza0vqo
Of course we have our own memories from the Turkish war of 1877-78:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxdjnm1t_FA
In those days a Finn was the dictator of Bulgaria!
http://www.interlingua.fi/gbul/gfehrnr.htm#ehrnrooth
vello
> "vello" <vellok...@hot.ee> wrote in message
>
> news:70e5f406-ab35-43d2...@37g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...
>
> > In estonian it is "truudus" - in the same meaning as in German.
> > Do english-speakers really lack that word?
>
> Probably. Maybe they lack "truudus" not only as a word?
Wenn alle untreu werden, so bleiben wir doch treu,
Daß immer noch auf Erden für euch ein Fähnlein sei.
Gefährten unsrer Jugend, ihr Bilder beßrer Zeit,
Die uns zu Männertugend und Liebestod geweiht.
>
> And here's the Slavyanka in Finnish:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haiYhza0vqo
>
> Of course we have our own memories from the Turkish war of 1877-78:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxdjnm1t_FA
>
> In those days a Finn was the dictator of Bulgaria!http://www.interlingua.fi/gbul/gfehrnr.htm#ehrnrooth
Sad he left - Bulgaria would be much better off for today.
captain!
//////////////
no offense to him personally, but usually the lowest members of society are
the ones who go on non-stop about jews, etc...
captain!
>>
>>
>> the argument for unification would be mostly power.
>> military
>> economic
>> cultural
>> etc...
>
> Nope. Economy.
> Power becomes more and more distributed and requires close cooperation to
> be activated.
>
what type of power are you refering to? certainly not military.
>>
>> in some cases , efficiency could increase, although the EU shows the
>> other side of the coin.
>>
>
>
> That argument like yours about EU has a huge hole in it: tell me (and with
> numbers) what there would be if there were no EU.
>
what i was alluding to was the enormous amount of bureaucracy in the EU.
bureaucracy is enemy to efficiency.
>
>> the agruments against unification are numerous. like you said, it's not
>> something we will have to deal with during our lifetimes (at least not
>> voluntarily).
>
> Unification is not binary - either unification or zero. It is slow gradual
> evolutionary process "from here to eternity".
> And it happens right now.
> The trick is there will be no "end" point - every arrangement is
> transient.
>
yes, agreed.
thus my example of large families evolving to tribes to kingdoms to nations
to... (whatever comes next).
captain!
quit eatin' the akita food. it's starting to influence your writings... :)
Vladimir Makarenko
I stand by my offense 101% - I know Jews who are more than just Friends.
The sucker wants to go cheap and take on them - be my guest. Just do not
whine later on that I play ugly.
What the fuck this whole endless attack on Jews, that they are soft target?
VM.
Vladimir Makarenko
> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2-udnYtwnbTs7ajX...@giganews.com...
>
>>>
>>> the argument for unification would be mostly power.
>>> military
>>> economic
>>> cultural
>>> etc...
>> Nope. Economy.
>> Power becomes more and more distributed and requires close cooperation to
>> be activated.
>>
>
> what type of power are you refering to? certainly not military.
Exactly - today military is a defense not a tool of projecting might.
Banks today are "commandos".
>
>>> in some cases , efficiency could increase, although the EU shows the
>>> other side of the coin.
>>>
>>
>> That argument like yours about EU has a huge hole in it: tell me (and with
>> numbers) what there would be if there were no EU.
>>
>
> what i was alluding to was the enormous amount of bureaucracy in the EU.
> bureaucracy is enemy to efficiency.
I do not argue with that - but show me what be a level of bureaucracy
(if to sum up - country by country) if there were no EU.
>
>
>>> the agruments against unification are numerous. like you said, it's not
>>> something we will have to deal with during our lifetimes (at least not
>>> voluntarily).
>> Unification is not binary - either unification or zero. It is slow gradual
>> evolutionary process "from here to eternity".
>> And it happens right now.
>> The trick is there will be no "end" point - every arrangement is
>> transient.
>>
>
> yes, agreed.
> thus my example of large families evolving to tribes to kingdoms to nations
> to... (whatever comes next).
Here we are on the same page. Except I said that first - I read it in my
Akita's notes (vol.86, page 3076) (well I didn't had time to provide the
reference), and you stole it.
As always I am a Light of Civilization and you are a canadian cannabis.
VM.
>
>
Vladimir Makarenko
I would *strongly* recommend - as a matter of personal safety to address
them with a Capital: Akita.
it's starting to influence your writings... :)
Her Highness - when she has time to talk to me, a Human, she says - "I
cannot believe what you eat. What is that "Red Color #40"?
VM.
>
>
captain!
>
>
> Exactly - today military is a defense not a tool of projecting might.
> Banks today are "commandos".
>
you're being philosophical. in the end it still comes down to clubs and
spears. animals: all
>>
>>>> in some cases , efficiency could increase, although the EU shows the
>>>> other side of the coin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That argument like yours about EU has a huge hole in it: tell me (and
>>> with numbers) what there would be if there were no EU.
>>>
>>
>> what i was alluding to was the enormous amount of bureaucracy in the EU.
>> bureaucracy is enemy to efficiency.
>
> I do not argue with that - but show me what be a level of bureaucracy (if
> to sum up - country by country) if there were no EU.
>
if you don't argue with it, why should i bother? :)
>>
>>
>>>> the agruments against unification are numerous. like you said, it's not
>>>> something we will have to deal with during our lifetimes (at least not
>>>> voluntarily).
>>> Unification is not binary - either unification or zero. It is slow
>>> gradual evolutionary process "from here to eternity".
>>> And it happens right now.
>>> The trick is there will be no "end" point - every arrangement is
>>> transient.
>>>
>>
>> yes, agreed.
>> thus my example of large families evolving to tribes to kingdoms to
>> nations to... (whatever comes next).
>
> Here we are on the same page. Except I said that first - I read it in my
> Akita's notes (vol.86, page 3076) (well I didn't had time to provide the
> reference), and you stole it.
> As always I am a Light of Civilization and you are a canadian cannabis.
>
who do you think told your akita in the first place?
hint: it's true master.
captain!
yikes! well it's your fault for buying that junk. get some veggies, rice,
chicken , fruit, and her HIGHness will be more approving.
btw, no red#40 in God's herb so mix a little as seasoning into some of your
piroshki one day.
captain!
>>
>> no offense to him personally, but usually the lowest members of society
>> are the ones who go on non-stop about jews, etc...
>>
>
> I stand by my offense 101% - I know Jews who are more than just Friends.
> The sucker wants to go cheap and take on them - be my guest. Just do not
> whine later on that I play ugly.
> What the fuck this whole endless attack on Jews, that they are soft
> target?
>
> VM.
honestly i can't undertand it, possibly due to family bias being passed down
from parent to child. that's how most of it works.
you could have a point with the soft target idea. jews don't go all nuts and
start blowing themselves up in crowded market places whenever... oh wait...
there's some bias coming from me now. thanks dad! :)
ps, the extreme version was obama killing a fly and people shitting their
pants because he was somehow cruel to the fly. heh heh poor obama. i bet he
had absolutely no idea of just how stupid the issue would become.
Vladimir Makarenko
> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:kvmdnZO47vxXxqHX...@giganews.com...
>
>>
>> Exactly - today military is a defense not a tool of projecting might.
>> Banks today are "commandos".
>>
>
> you're being philosophical. in the end it still comes down to clubs and
> spears. animals: all
A war today is a waste of money and a great PR failure. It was a tool of
politics yesterday - today this is the very last option.
>
>
>
>>>>> in some cases , efficiency could increase, although the EU shows the
>>>>> other side of the coin.
>>>>>
>>>> That argument like yours about EU has a huge hole in it: tell me (and
>>>> with numbers) what there would be if there were no EU.
>>>>
>>> what i was alluding to was the enormous amount of bureaucracy in the EU.
>>> bureaucracy is enemy to efficiency.
>> I do not argue with that - but show me what be a level of bureaucracy (if
>> to sum up - country by country) if there were no EU.
>>
>
> if you don't argue with it, why should i bother? :)
Because I am from an Empire and you are just a canadian.
>
>
>>>
>>>>> the agruments against unification are numerous. like you said, it's not
>>>>> something we will have to deal with during our lifetimes (at least not
>>>>> voluntarily).
>>>> Unification is not binary - either unification or zero. It is slow
>>>> gradual evolutionary process "from here to eternity".
>>>> And it happens right now.
>>>> The trick is there will be no "end" point - every arrangement is
>>>> transient.
>>>>
>>> yes, agreed.
>>> thus my example of large families evolving to tribes to kingdoms to
>>> nations to... (whatever comes next).
>> Here we are on the same page. Except I said that first - I read it in my
>> Akita's notes (vol.86, page 3076) (well I didn't had time to provide the
>> reference), and you stole it.
>> As always I am a Light of Civilization and you are a canadian cannabis.
>>
>
> who do you think told your akita in the first place?
> hint: it's true master.
Thanks for telling me that: her cell phone now is taken away, credit
cards canceled, and the only book left to read: Vladimir Zhirinovsky's
"A trip to Southern Seas".
Who could only think she would betray me with some Canadian.
VM.
>
>
Vladimir Makarenko
Hah, I see that it is seen even from across the boarder - they now throw
at Obama everything.
But he is a tough guy despite all the smiles besides there are a lot of
people who stand firm for him.
This country has to move forward, not be a pawn for some idiot who
decided to make his name in History book by taking on some medieval
moron dictator at a price of putting several thousands boys to coffins.
And this is just a part of it - he tried to take on the Constitution.
You don't have a Soviet Experience - I do. I was getting cold sweat
watching it.
VM.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> captain! wrote:
>> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:kvmdnZO47vxXxqHX...@giganews.com...
>>
>>>
>>> Exactly - today military is a defense not a tool of projecting might.
>>> Banks today are "commandos".
>>>
>>
>> you're being philosophical. in the end it still comes down to clubs
>> and spears. animals: all
>
> A war today is a waste of money and a great PR failure. It was a tool of
> politics yesterday - today this is the very last option.
>
It appears to have been successful in the last several instances:
Russia > Georgia, Israel > Gaza, Russia > Ichkeria,
Ceylonese Singhalese > Ceylonese Tamils
Though perhaps the last one on the list was a last option.
> VM.
>>
>>
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
wrote:
> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>
> > A war today is a waste of money and a great PR failure. It was a tool of
> > politics yesterday - today this is the very last option.
>
> Ummhmm... ?
> It appears to have been successful in the last several instances:
> Russia > Georgia, Israel > Gaza, Russia > Ichkeria,
> Ceylonese Singhalese > Ceylonese Tamils
> Though perhaps the last one on the list was a last option.
>
But it has been also a disaster in many recent instances:
USA > Iraq, Georgia > S. Ossetia, Israel > Hizbullah, Turkey > Kurdish
Iraq, Kosovo KLA > Montenegro; and USA > Afghanistan is not doing too
well either.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Umm. Ah, Well Bush was your president. :)
But how can you honestly say that Isreal's wars of territorial
expansion have not been successful?
Also you need to admit that what you call Georgia > S. Ossetia
was an internal police action most comparable to how russia
describes its actions in Ingushetia and against Ichkeria. This
attempt against internal terrorists was used by russia as its
pretext to invade Georgia. One need only keep in mind the preparatory
work done by russia in giving out russian citizenship to residents
of Georgia, in order to provide plausibility to their story of
invading to protect russian citizens.
was used b
J. Anderson
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1PR%l.58262$qa....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> But how can you honestly say that Isreal's
If you're going to misspell Israel it would be better to write Irreal.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
I don't houever make sense of the additional comment.
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
wrote:
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 21, 8:09 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>
> >>> A war today is a waste of money and a great PR failure. It was a tool of
> >>> politics yesterday - today this is the very last option.
> >> Ummhmm... ?
> >> It appears to have been successful in the last several instances:
> >> Russia > Georgia, Israel > Gaza, Russia > Ichkeria,
> >> Ceylonese Singhalese > Ceylonese Tamils
> >> Though perhaps the last one on the list was a last option.
>
> > But it has been also a disaster in many recent instances:
>
> > USA > Iraq, Georgia > S. Ossetia, Israel > Hizbullah, Turkey > Kurdish
> > Iraq, Kosovo KLA > Montenegro; and USA > Afghanistan is not doing too
> > well either.
>
> Umm. Ah, Well Bush was your president. :)
>
Not mine for sure.
>
> But how can you honestly say that Isreal's wars of territorial
> expansion have not been successful?
>
How can I say that Israel's latest war on Hizbullah hasn not been
successful? Because I beleive it hasn't. Honestly. Why do you find
this surprising?
>
> Also you need to admit that what you call Georgia > S. Ossetia
> was an internal police action most comparable to how russia
> describes its actions in Ingushetia and against Ichkeria.
>
Then why did you include "Russia > Ichkeria" in your own original
list:
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On Jun 22, 1:37 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 21, 8:09 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>>>>> A war today is a waste of money and a great PR failure. It was a tool of
>>>>> politics yesterday - today this is the very last option.
>>>> Ummhmm... ?
>>>> It appears to have been successful in the last several instances:
>>>> Russia > Georgia, Israel > Gaza, Russia > Ichkeria,
>>>> Ceylonese Singhalese > Ceylonese Tamils
>>>> Though perhaps the last one on the list was a last option.
>>> But it has been also a disaster in many recent instances:
>>> USA > Iraq, Georgia > S. Ossetia, Israel > Hizbullah, Turkey > Kurdish
>>> Iraq, Kosovo KLA > Montenegro; and USA > Afghanistan is not doing too
>>> well either.
>> Umm. Ah, Well Bush was your president. :)
>>
>
> Not mine for sure.
reign. If not, then what country are you a citizen/subject of?
>
>> But how can you honestly say that Isreal's wars of territorial
>> expansion have not been successful?
>>
>
> How can I say that Israel's latest war on Hizbullah hasn not been
> successful? Because I beleive it hasn't. Honestly. Why do you find
> this surprising?
Compare its' size now and in 1947. and the ongoing
colonization of occupied territories.
>
>> Also you need to admit that what you call Georgia > S. Ossetia
>> was an internal police action most comparable to how russia
>> describes its actions in Ingushetia and against Ichkeria.
>>
>
> Then why did you include "Russia > Ichkeria" in your own original
> list:
>
>>>> Russia > Georgia, Israel > Gaza, Russia > Ichkeria
Because at the time of the invasions Ichkeria had already freed
itself from russia, in all but formal international recognition.
Also the Russia > Georgia invasion is/was definitely an invasion
of a foreign sovereign country.
--
Rostyk
J. Anderson
Well, for me the Sionist state is somehow 'irreal' (= unreal).
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Tka0m.2437$Uf1...@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>> J. Anderson wrote:
>>> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>> news:1PR%l.58262$qa....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>>> But how can you honestly say that Isreal's
>>> If you're going to misspell Israel it would be better to write Irreal.
>> Thank you for the spelling corection.
>> I don't houever make sense of the additional comment.
>
> Well, for me the Sionist state is somehow 'irreal' (= unreal).
>
>
However irreal it may be, it isn't a figment of imagination.
Those people have amassed an arsenal of nuclear bombs and
their colonists are forcibly occupying and spreading into
the surrounding lands.
So one can not deny their existence as unreal.
J. Anderson
Israel is two thousand years of calamitous history projected through the
focal point of the Sho'ah into our time and into one single spot in the
Levant. It will give us no peace. It is unfortunately real, but everything
about it is unreal.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
surreal. Anyway the history of the Jewish religion and cultural group
so tightly bound to it, is longer than two thousand years. I seem to
recall a Babylonian exile a while before the time designated as
0 BC/AD. They count a number of 'holocausts', 'Sho'ah' ... expulsions
... in their history. The magic number 6.000.000 figures in several
(at least the recent) ones. In their wanderings they most resemble
the Romany/Gypsies, and some claim kinship to the remains of the
Khazar/Chazar (sp?) tribes, whose empire was destroyed by the Kyivan
empire.
--
Rostyk
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
wrote:
> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 22, 1:37 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote:
>
> >>> On Jun 21, 8:09 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" <urj...@bellsouth.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
> >>>>> A war today is a waste of money and a great PR failure. It was a tool of
> >>>>> politics yesterday - today this is the very last option.
> >>>> Ummhmm... ?
> >>>> It appears to have been successful in the last several instances:
> >>>> Russia > Georgia, Israel > Gaza, Russia > Ichkeria,
> >>>> Ceylonese Singhalese > Ceylonese Tamils
> >>>> Though perhaps the last one on the list was a last option.
> >>> But it has been also a disaster in many recent instances:
> >>> USA > Iraq, Georgia > S. Ossetia, Israel > Hizbullah, Turkey > Kurdish
> >>> Iraq, Kosovo KLA > Montenegro; and USA > Afghanistan is not doing too
> >>> well either.
> >> Umm. Ah, Well Bush was your president. :)
>
> > Not mine for sure.
>
> Were you not a citizen of the USA in 2000-Jan.2009 during his
> reign.
>
Yes, but I didn't vote for him. I voted Libertarian, as usual.
[tons of crap deleted]
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
wrote:
This is indeed a good point here. Indeed, Kiev was an imperialist
power. And indeed, Kiev brutally destroyed Khazars, slaughteriong
almost the entire civilian population, including a multitude of
innocent women and children. It was a clear genocide against Khazars.
And since the Ukrianian SBU is investigating all alleged genocides in
this region and issuing indictments against long dead Jews and
Latvians, I would expect SBU to soon issue similar indictments
against those degenerate Ukrainians who committed this heinous
genocide against the freedom-loving Khazar civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
A visitor to Atil wrote soon after the sacking of the city: "The Rus
attacked, and no grape or raisin remained, not a leaf on a branch."
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Vkarlamov, your imagination is fantastic.
You are welcome to add your Khazar ancestors to the roll
of innocent victims. Another 6.000.000, wasn't it?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
You, Rostyk, are a good example of the hypocrisy of Uke nationalists.
On the one hand, you take an enormous pride in the belief that Kiev
once owned an empire and had not only fellow Rusans - Russians and
Belorusans - under its rule but exploited many non-Slavic people as
well. So much so, that instead of referring to it by its proper name -
Kievan Rus - you called it "Kyivan Empire", to hide the "Rus" part and
to emphasize the "Empire" part, although I am not sure it was ever
called an "Empire". But you want it to be an Empire! It makes you
happy and proud!!!
But yet, when later in the history, the capital of the Rus Empire
moved to Moscow and Ukraine became just a measly province in that
empire - suddenly you get full of indignation: "Those damn Moskal
imperialists! Only deranged cities/nations want to own an empire!"
The same with killing innocent civilians. There is so much pride and
happiness in your telling how the "Kyivan Empire" "destroyed" all
Khazars - military and civilians. "Yes, we killed you all! We are so
strong, smart, skilled and powerful!"
But when Ukrainians suffer from the same imperialist kind of
destruction, you are full of hysterical indignation again: "Those damn
Jews and Moskals! They destroyed us!"
What a hypocrite.
captain!
> Because I am from an Empire and you are just a canadian.
>
i already explained to you about who helped build your adopted country
(while the makarenkos were still krestyanin), but you're too proud to accept
it.
or were you referring to the empire of foot fungus that you preside over?
>
>>
>> who do you think told your akita in the first place?
>> hint: it's true master.
>
> Thanks for telling me that: her cell phone now is taken away, credit cards
> canceled, and the only book left to read: Vladimir Zhirinovsky's "A trip
> to Southern Seas".
> Who could only think she would betray me with some Canadian.
>
not just one. she has been seen with many others while you were busy working
at the chocolate factory.
http://www.prestigioushomesflatfeeservices.net/images/Oompa%20Loompab.jpg
(on the far left)
captain!
> Vladimir Makarenko wrote:
>> captain! wrote:
>>> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:kvmdnZO47vxXxqHX...@giganews.com...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly - today military is a defense not a tool of projecting might.
>>>> Banks today are "commandos".
>>>>
>>>
>>> you're being philosophical. in the end it still comes down to clubs and
>>> spears. animals: all
>>
>> A war today is a waste of money and a great PR failure. It was a tool of
>> politics yesterday - today this is the very last option.
>>
> Ummhmm... ?
> It appears to have been successful in the last several instances:
> Russia > Georgia, Israel > Gaza, Russia > Ichkeria,
> Ceylonese Singhalese > Ceylonese Tamils
> Though perhaps the last one on the list was a last option.
>>
true, although PR failures, as mak pointed out.
captain!
What a hypocrite.
//////////////
for illiciting the above response, rostyk scores a domination point.
i don't understand how he manges to get under your skin so easily. is it the
"polite" anti-semitism?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
> "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:92be7d6c-d1f6-4ffc...@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Wrong. This is not a pisssing contest. Personal competing against
Rostyk with his advanced age, "stature", huge belly and size 5 shoes
would be quite demeaning to me.
On Jul 24 2007, 2:47 pm, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote:
>
> I can't find wear to fit: foot size 5.5EE , height 5', waist 43-44"
>
I was not really replying to Rostyk as an individual. I was making an
observation that Uke nationalist claim that Russian desire to see
modern Ukraine and Russia to return to being part of the same country,
just as they were in Kievan Rus - is evil because it is
"imperialist". But what they actually complain about is the fact that
this modern Rus would have its capital in Moscow rather than in Kiev
and that, because Russia is larger than Ukraine, Russians would be
dominant.
But when Rus was united with Kiev calling the shots - that kind of Rus
Empire looks quite appealing to them.
Similarly, Uke nationalists appeal to the whole world about those
"degenerate Russians" like Stalin who caused deaths of millions of
Ukrainians. However, they take pride in the fact that these same
Russians - only ruled from Kiev at the time - exterminated millions of
innocent Khazars and what not.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
fantastic imagination? :) :-D
Also consider his other remarks, which I am sure he will describe
as being satirical humor and not at all to be taken seriously,
including his personally directed insults.
My dear karla, I readily admit to being a Ukrainian patriot, a
"nationalist", and even with "imperialist" dreams, if only as
daydreams. I would love to see the whole area unified, but of course
under a different arrangement than you espouse.
Although you claim that this is not a pissing contest, you surely
do piss a lot and seem to delight in slinging shit and mud.
It must be a cultural thing, or perhaps a personal health issue.
captain!
if you're a nationalist, why would you want a unification with an other
state? is my definition of nationalism incorrect?
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
Don't impose your own culture on others, Rostyk. native culture is
health-related: the world-renown Candida yeast culture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis
Candidiasis or thrush is a fungal infection (mycosis) of any of the
Candida species, of which Candida albicans is the most
common.Candidiasis encompasses infections that range from superficial,
such as oral thrush and vaginitis...
http://www.celtnet.org.uk/images/candida_culture.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_itch
Tinea cruris, also known informally as crotch itch, crotch rot or jock
itch, is a dermatophyte fungal infection of the groin region, more
often seen in males.... Some other contributing fungi are Candida
albicans
>
> It must be a cultural thing, or perhaps a personal health issue.
>
Both. If your thing continues to remain chronically cultural, this is
a health issue. To get cured, take showers long before your privates
acquire smell and taste:
On May 3 2006, 9:29 am, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote:
>
> Now to give you a taste of my privates, I will save the wash
> water this evening. Please provide your USPS mailing address
> so that I can send it to you COD. :-p
>
You are always a gentleman of refined culture, Rostyk.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
And just what is your definition?
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
You are so talented. Who would have suspected your interest.
But although I am a Canadian citizen, I would never impose
Ukrainian or Canadian Culture on you
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr.
"Ukrainian culture"?! LOL. You don't even know about Gogol's novella
"Taras Bulba", the most famous Ukrainian patriotic piece of
literature.
Nor are you aware of the most famous literary Ukrainian character
Ostap Bender, the (anti-?) hero of 2 great classic novels written by 2
writers from Odessa, Ukraine. Even the Balt and Finn readers of SCB
are all familiar with these books. You are the only one who isn't.
You know less about Ukrainian culture than your average North
Carolinian neighbours, who, unlike you, know Ostap Bender as the hero
of Mel Brooks' film "Twelve Chairs". You trying to "impose" Ukrainian
culture on me is more ridiculous than I trying to impose Latvian
culture on Dmitrijs; or, as we say in Russia and Ukraine, than a
little son trying to teach his father how to make love: "Ne uchi otca
ebat'sia".
On May 29 2006, 9:42 am, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
<urj...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> vkarla...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Then google "Taras Bulba". You'll be quite surprised. If you are indeed
> > Ukrainian, of course.
>
> And which of the hundreds of thousands of hits is supposed to surprise
> me, for instance: the music of Janacek, the restaurant in Moscow?
> Please do tell us all :)
> What and why ! :-D
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taras_Bulba
Taras Bulba is a romanticized historical religious novel by Nikolai
Gogol. It tells the story of an old Zaporozhian Cossack, Taras Bulba,
and his two sons, Andriy and Ostap. Taras' sons studied at the Kyiv
Academy and return home. The three men set out on an epic journey to
Zaporizhian Sich located in Ukraine, where they join other Cossacks
and go to war against Poland.
The story was made into an opera by Ukrainian composer, Mykola
Lysenko. Leoš Janáček (1854-1928)'s "Taras Bulba," a symphonic
rhapsody for orchestra, was composed in the years 1915-1918. The
story has been made into several films... Another adaptation was made
in the US in 1962, starring Yul Brynner and Tony Curtis. "The Ride to
Dubno" has become a standard concert piece and has been recorded many
times.
Ernest Hemingway called Taras Bulba "One of the 10 greatest books of
all time." The villain in the premiere episode of Disney's animated
series Darkwing Duck was named Taurus Bulba. Taras Boulba is the name
of a Belgian IPA from the Belgian brewery Brasserie de la Senne. It is
imported to the United States by Shelton Brothers.
>
> Why should I know anything about the fake names that you hide behind?
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Chairs
The Twelve Chairs is a classic satirical novel by the Soviet authors
Ilf and Petrov, released in 1928. Its main character Ostap Bender
reappears in the book's sequel The Golden Calf.
Vladimir Makarenko
> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:kYedndlHK8VtI6PX...@giganews.com...
>
>> Because I am from an Empire and you are just a canadian.
>>
>
> i already explained to you about who helped build your adopted country
> (while the makarenkos were still krestyanin), but you're too proud to accept
> it.
Because I am an Empire and you just a Canadian - it is like in good old
times there is Rome and some barbarians at outskirts of Civilization.
You probably show proudly my replies to your buddies - look - it is from
Empire!!!
>
> or were you referring to the empire of foot fungus that you preside over?
>
I guess this counts as "humor" in taiga waterhole. I guess all Grizzlies
are laughing rolling on the floor.
>
>
>>> who do you think told your akita in the first place?
>>> hint: it's true master.
>> Thanks for telling me that: her cell phone now is taken away, credit cards
>> canceled, and the only book left to read: Vladimir Zhirinovsky's "A trip
>> to Southern Seas".
>> Who could only think she would betray me with some Canadian.
>>
>
> not just one. she has been seen with many others while you were busy working
> at the chocolate factory.
Do you know she is underaged 14? You understand the implications? Like
Airborne division visits you?
VM.
captain!
> captain! wrote:
>> "Vladimir Makarenko" <vma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:kYedndlHK8VtI6PX...@giganews.com...
>>
>>> Because I am from an Empire and you are just a canadian.
>>>
>>
>> i already explained to you about who helped build your adopted country
>> (while the makarenkos were still krestyanin), but you're too proud to
>> accept it.
>
> Because I am an Empire and you just a Canadian - it is like in good old
> times there is Rome and some barbarians at outskirts of Civilization.
> You probably show proudly my replies to your buddies - look - it is from
> Empire!!!
such a rich imagination. but since i came to the realization that my people
helped to settle and build your country, nothing you can say will have any
effect on me anymore. i feel almost like a parent who is proud that their
child grew up in a good household that i worked hard to build. the child is
a little overly proud at times, but i'm still happy that he's able to enjoy
his easy life due to the fruits of my hard labor.