Russian National Anthem
ERIKA
Russia's Olympic gold medalists standing in awkward silence on the victory
stands of Sydney as their national anthem rumbled out of the
loudspeakers.If, to some, they appeared at a loss for words, it was for good
reason. The Russian state hymn has no words.
This week, Mr. Putin marched onto this battlefield of national identity with
a proposal to bring back the Soviet national anthem - with final lyrics yet
to be written - along with the Soviet Red Banner as the official ensign of
the Russian armed forces.
The Russian Parliament, where the 48-year-old president continues to hold
together a majority of Communists and market reformers, will vote on the
measure on Friday. Many legislators today predicted quick passage.
It appears that Comrad Putin wants to go backwards.The only result is that a
bankrupt country will even become worse--The flow now seeking western visas
will become a flood.
----------------------------
Well, Goodbye now...
ERIKA<www.torpan.com>
Manly,Sydney,Australia
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Alex
> bankrupt country will even become worse
Russia became bancrupt since a gang of the west sponsored maradeurs unlawfully
declared a russophobic quacking Russian nathional hymn.
> --The flow now seeking western visas
> will become a flood.
Do you think that the Russian hymn adopted in 1943 will upset the ruling nazi
clique of Kokhs and Grefs so much? I don't think so. They still have the flag of
Nazi collaborators flying over Kremlin, and billions worth of Russia's property
to steal.
Alex.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> The low point came last summer when President Vladimir V. Putin witnessed
> Russia's Olympic gold medalists standing in awkward silence on the victory
> stands of Sydney as their national anthem rumbled out of the
> loudspeakers.If, to some, they appeared at a loss for words, it was for good
> reason. The Russian state hymn has no words.
>
> This week, Mr. Putin marched onto this battlefield of national identity with
> a proposal to bring back the Soviet national anthem - with final lyrics yet
> to be written - along with the Soviet Red Banner as the official ensign of
> the Russian armed forces.
> The Russian Parliament, where the 48-year-old president continues to hold
> together a majority of Communists and market reformers, will vote on the
> measure on Friday. Many legislators today predicted quick passage.
>
> It appears that Comrad Putin wants to go backwards.The only result is that a
> bankrupt country will even become worse--The flow now seeking western visas
> will become a flood.
>
If the people don't like the national anthem chosen by the government,
what means do they have to change this choice?
Is there some mechanism for a petition to reconsider?
To request a national referendum?
Or simply to avoid playing the anthem whenever this can be avoided?
substituting some other tune eg. a solemn hymn etc.
I would not necessarily wish to urge people to insult the anthem
by for example not standing up when it is played?
--Rostyk
AV
>
> The low point came last summer when President Vladimir V. Putin witnessed
> Russia's Olympic gold medalists standing in awkward silence on the victory
> stands of Sydney as their national anthem rumbled out of the
> loudspeakers.If, to some, they appeared at a loss for words, it was for good
> reason. The Russian state hymn has no words.
>
> This week, Mr. Putin marched onto this battlefield of national identity with
> a proposal to bring back the Soviet national anthem - with final lyrics yet
> to be written - along with the Soviet Red Banner as the official ensign of
> the Russian armed forces.
> The Russian Parliament, where the 48-year-old president continues to hold
> together a majority of Communists and market reformers, will vote on the
> measure on Friday. Many legislators today predicted quick passage.
The only way to finally resolve the issue (after 10 years living without
national symbols). Leftists wouldn't accept double-head eagle or the
flag
(which they say nazi collaborators used in WWII), others wouldn't want
Alexandrov's tune as it reminds them of Stalin's goulag etc ... It is
impossible to *satisfy* everyone. So a different principle was chosen -
just to pick symbols from different historical epochs. All this is
already history.
> It appears that Comrad Putin wants to go backwards.
Popular support for Alexandrov's tune varied from 49% to 70%.
> The only result is that a
> bankrupt country will even become worse--The flow now seeking western visas
> will become a flood.
It doesn't depend on the anthem tune.
>
> ----------------------------
> Well, Goodbye now...
> ERIKA<www.torpan.com>
> Manly,Sydney,Australia
> Mit freundlichen GrЭъen
AV
You are wrong, Alex. Russian flag was used long before nazi came to
power.
>
> Alex.
AV
Alexandrov's tune is supported by 50%-70% of population. About 20-30%
just don't care. Presumably 10%-20% would prefer something else but
most will accept the choice of majority. there is small number of
those who claim they will not be standing up ... These are those who
can't distinguish between the tune (without words) and ideology.
> --Rostyk
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
AV wrote:
Well if the tune is suitably melodic and the people approve of the tune
and the words are patriotically appropriate then it is the proper
choice.
The only problem will be to break the connection between any
nostalgia for the soviet regime and patriotism for Russia that should
be evoked by the anthem. Now that the melody has been settled
on the words need to be decided on. Here the rest of the near abroad
will look to see if there is any cause for alarm, in that the words may
encourage Russian imperial expansionism. Otherwise no problem.
i.e Words similar to the German "Deutchsland Deutchsland ueber alles,
ueber alles in der Welt" would raise warning flags.
--Rostyk
Alex
> Alex wrote:
> >
> > Do you think that the Russian hymn adopted in 1943 will upset the ruling nazi
> > clique of Kokhs and Grefs so much? I don't think so. They still have the flag of
> > Nazi collaborators flying over Kremlin, and billions worth of Russia's property
> > to steal.
>
> You are wrong, Alex. Russian flag was used long before nazi came to
> power.
I don't see how it invalidates my point.
This is the flag of NAZI collaborators.
Yes, it was used by enemies of Russia before.
Notably by the bloody butchers who killed
Russians for the West in the civil war.
Alex.
Alex
> Now that the melody has been settled
> on the words need to be decided on.
Yes, I really think Khruschev's words are crap.
The original lyric must be restored.
> Here the rest of the near abroad
> will look to see if there is any cause for alarm, in that the words may
> encourage Russian imperial expansionism.
Russia can not help its neighbours sticking to her. Some have blood thirsty cannibals
on its borders (Byelorussia, Armenia, Georgia, republics of Central Asia, Yugoslavia),
others have nothing to do outside Russia for economic reasons (Ukraine, Moldova and
countries of central and Eastern Europe). Imperialist powers and their stooges in
Kremlin have to work really hard to keep parts of Russia apart despite the will of the
peoples. Look at Byelorussia affair alone.
Alex.
Vlad
Oh yeah! It is the music that causes most people to emigrate!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ptr.Skvord
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
Не розум¦ю кого ¦ про що Ви пита¤те?
Що це таке Израиловка? гимн ¶зра§ла?
¶ при ч¦м тут ¶зра§ль?
--Ростик
Ptr.Skvord
"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote:
> "Ptr.Skvord" wrote:
>
> > ю ЙЮЙХЕ ЯКНБЮ Б ЦХЛМЕ хГПЮХКНБЙХ?
> мЕ ПНГСЛ╕Ч ЙНЦН ╕ ОПН ЫН бХ ОХРЮ╓РЕ?
> ыН ЖЕ РЮЙЕ хГПЮХКНБЙЮ? ЦХЛМ ╤ГПЮ╖КЮ?
> ╤ ОПХ В╕Л РСР ╤ГПЮ╖КЭ?
> --пНЯРХЙ
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote:
>
> > "Ptr.Skvord" wrote:
> >
> > > ю ЙЮЙХЕ ЯКНБЮ Б ЦХЛМЕ хГПЮХКНБЙХ?
> > >
> >
> > мЕ ПНГСЛ╕Ч ЙНЦН ╕ ОПН ЫН бХ ОХРЮ╓РЕ?
> > ыН ЖЕ РЮЙЕ хГПЮХКНБЙЮ? ЦХЛМ ╤ГПЮ╖КЮ?
> > ╤ ОПХ В╕Л РСР ╤ГПЮ╖КЭ?
> > --пНЯРХЙ
>
> это на иврите, да?
Why no. Far from it!
Ptr.Skvord
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> оХ, ФТБОУМЙФПН ДБЧБК!
>
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote:
>
> > "Ptr.Skvord" wrote:
> >
> > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Ptr.Skvord" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > А какие слова в гимне Израиловки?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Не розум¦ю кого ¦ про що Ви пита¤те?
> > > > Що це таке Израиловка? гимн ¶зра§ла?
> > > > ¶ при ч¦м тут ¶зра§ль?
> > > > --Ростик
> > >
> > > ЬФП ОБ ЙЧТЙФЕ, ДБ?
> >
> > Why no. Far from it!
Better yet I will ask in English. Which I presume
that you understand. I wrote:
I do not understand what you are asking about?
What is this Израиловка? the anthem of Israel?
And what does Israel have to do with this topic?
--Rostyk
AV
>
> Ну, транслитом давай!
Петя, це на хохлятском, просто выбери CP1251, нажми Ctrl-U и балдей ;-).
Erika
question the other day in Moscow:the corruption in Russia has been around
since 1900....it is nothing new.
When you have a unstable economic system you get cases where the reward for
work,( study university and technical qualified graduates getting no
recognition for their effort)because of corruption....the only thing is
to"bail out"
To have a national anthem is good ,but to return to a system which obviously
went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only glossing ---what
are the tactics in this?
----------------------------
Well, Goodbye now...
ERIKA<www.torpan.com>
Manly,Sydney,Australia.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen-Do zobaczena
"Vlad" <vl...@e-weavers.com> wrote in message
news:90v13b$kth$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Vladimir Korostelev
Really?? I lived in US and had prefered to return...and my feel is
that many Russians abroad will do the same because of the
cultural differences; that music is surely a sign of Russian culture.
Vladimir
Vladimir Korostelev
> what means do they have to change this choice?
> Is there some mechanism for a petition to reconsider?
> To request a national referendum?
> Or simply to avoid playing the anthem whenever this can be avoided?
> substituting some other tune eg. a solemn hymn etc.
>
> I would not necessarily wish to urge people to insult the anthem
> by for example not standing up when it is played?
> --Rostyk
Then they will feel themselves as enemies of the country where they live.
It is rather their personnal problem and then they need to reach
Sheremet'evo -2 .
That anthem comes for long time. You may like or dislike it but this is the
way how
things really work.
Vladimir Korostelev
obviously
> went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only
glossing ---what
> are the tactics in this?
>
to live
in Soviet Union. Anyway, I need to say about all your comments (surely sorry
is mine) BUT your comments are really STUPID. It is obvious for me that you
don't understand the things you are talking about. I don't mean that you are
wrong
persona, I simply mean that your postings are the postings of poorly
educated
persona -- at least, you understand almost nothing about current events and
history of Russia. You look like popugau repeating someone's rave.
Vladimir
nhoop
>I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
>to live in Soviet Union.
That sounds terrible to many Western ears, but I think I understand it.
Yes, the list of Stalin's atrocities against the Russian people is truly
shocking, but I wonder if the average Russian's life was all that bad.
He had a job for life, free lodgings (and free heat for it), free health
care, and free education for his children. Today one third of Russian
citizens exist below the poverty line, and the majority has to scratch
pretty hard to make a living. Medical supplies are in short demand, and
some schoolrooms are freezing cold. This list of misery seems endless,
and the perceived future is anything but clear.
One thing I do know for sure: political philosophies are fuel for
fascinating intellectual discourse but are of no interest at all to
people who are hungry and cold. It is, therefore, perfectly
understandable that many Russians long for what they had before.
The initial Communist philosophy was not evil, but it permitted cruel
men to come to power.
Nat
L.Gordeev
On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, nhoop wrote:
> Vladimir wrote:
>
> >I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> >to live in Soviet Union.
>
> That sounds terrible to many Western ears,
And who cares, please?
> but I think I understand it.
Actually, you don't ...
> Yes, the list of Stalin's atrocities against the Russian people is truly
> shocking, but I wonder if the average Russian's life was all that bad.
... because Mr Stalin, aka (to Western ears) Uncle Joe, died in 1953,
and hence the average Russian's life had absolutely nothing to do with
"his" atrocities.
L.G
Mark Brooks
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@mail.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.30.00123...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de..
.
TANKS
nhoop wrote:
> Vladimir wrote:
>
> >I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> >to live in Soviet Union.
>
> That sounds terrible to many Western ears, but I think I understand it.
>
> Yes, the list of Stalin's atrocities against the Russian people is truly
> shocking,
Idiot ! makes as much sense as saying "the list of Hitler's atrocities against
the German people.."
Gary Goldberg
<ko...@baltnet.ru> wrote:
> > To have a national anthem is good ,but to return to a system which
> obviously
> > went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only
> glossing ---what
> > are the tactics in this?
> >
> I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> to live
> in Soviet Union.
Why?
--
Illiterate? Write for free help!
(Remove "X" from address to reply)
staten
"Vladimir Korostelev" <
ko...@baltnet.ru> wrote in message news:3a4c...@news.baltnet.ru...| > If the people don't like the national anthem chosen by the government,Things , in this case, work lousy. Resurrecting old stalinist attributes is an insult to millions of victims who perished in prisons and gulags during years of the unabridged dictator despotism.
staten
to return to a system which
> obviously
> > went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only
> glossing ---what
> > are the tactics in this?
> >
> I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> to live
> in Soviet Union.
subsistence minimum for a total control over their minds .
staten
to return to a system which
> obviously
> > went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only
> glossing ---what
> > are the tactics in this?
> >
> I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> to live
> in Soviet Union.
So do all kind of Stalinists and commies plus all those losers who
dream about guaranteed by the state a stinky place in a communal flat , a
miserable wage and lousy medical care in exchange of total control over
minds and souls a lack of personal freedom and giving up all rights to the
state to take responsibility over your destiny.
But in spite of all that you have all rights to live in the Soviet Union ,
at least in your dreams that’s for sure.
staten
to return to a system which
> obviously
> > went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only
> glossing ---what
> > are the tactics in this?
> >
> I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> to live
> in Soviet Union.
So do all kind of Stalinists and commies plus all those losers who
Eugene Holman
> > To have a national anthem is good ,but to return to a system which
> obviously
> > went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only
> glossing ---what
> > are the tactics in this?
> >
> I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> to live
> in Soviet Union.
Why would you like to live in the Soviet Union?
Why do you think that closing a country off from the world, keeping its
people inside of closed borders, forcing them to use an economic system
which produced more waste than anything else, ruling by decree rather
than by free elections, and forcing entire nations to live in a country
and with a political and economic system they hated was all right?
I and many other readers of this forum would like to know.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
staten
to return to a system which
> obviously
> > went bankrupt is stupid.Anything associated with it is only
> glossing ---what
> > are the tactics in this?
> >
> I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would like
> to live
> in Soviet Union.
So do all losers who are eager to exchange a guaranteed by state miserable
subsistence minimum for a total control over their minds and souls plus
giving up personal freedom.
staten
Things , in this case, work lousy. Resurrecting old stalinist attributes is
an insult to millions of victims who perished in prisons and gulags during
years of unabridged despotism.
nhoop
>Idiot !
Whatever intelligence you have is hidden by your boorish rudeness!
Nat
TANKS
nhoop wrote:
boo hoo !!
address the point
Vladimir Korostelev
> > I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would
like
> > to live
> > in Soviet Union.
>
> So do all kind of Stalinists and commies plus all those losers who
> dream about guaranteed by the state a stinky place in a communal flat , a
> miserable wage and lousy medical care in exchange of total control over
> minds and souls a lack of personal freedom and giving up all rights to
the
> state to take responsibility over your destiny.
> But in spite of all that you have all rights to live in the Soviet Union ,
> at least in your dreams that’s for sure.
>
>
Thank you! Well, I will try to explain [though you give that kind of
response that
hardly deserves an answer].
About the losers:
I don't know what kind of home you have but I am satisfied in full with my 3
room flat and
2 floor stone countryhouse with fireplace and nice roof, at 30 km from
Kaliningrad. I built
it myself. I am a landlord and have a plant btw. Hardly I can consider
myself as a loser.
Last time I worked in the University of Oklahoma, Norman, US as the Visiting
Research
Associate and right now intend to work in Trinity College Dublin, Ireland. I
also have the
job offers from the Brighton University, Sheffield Hallam Univ., the UK;
Oakland Univ.,
the US and so on....
As I know about my relatives nobody of them was any sort of losers --
GrandPa had a wood
manufacturing plant in Tzar times and was a head (predsedatel') of kolkhoz
in thirties in Ural
and Siberia though all around knew that he was a capitalist and their master
few years ago.
This is some sort of strong master like Henry Ford (the Founder) to certain
degree. He had
absolutely no irritation regarding Soviets and everyday red 'Pravda' from
first page to its end
though he lose all his capital; he had been considering the real things
just as real, without
any political bias. He often told me -- 'never be glad to a gain and never
regret about a lose'.
Anyway, the most of Russians are really become some sort of losers in last
ten years. We lived
much better in the Soviet times then in the modern time; this is the only
reason why Jewish democrats
in Russia cannot get at any vote more than 6-10% of votes . I also believe
that such people as Igor
Tamm and Jores Alferov (the Nobel Prize Winners in Physics) aren't the
losers though both are in fact
strong socialists (note:Tamm had died many years ago) and both are the
members of the Communist
Party. There were a lot of other prominent people who believe in Communist
ideas and hardly they were
the losers. At least, Stalin surely deserves much more respectation than
Gorbatchov!
About the total control over mind:
It's is impossible to control mind -- I know it as a scientist and I hope
you do. The only
possible thing is to take a control over the behaviour and each country has
certain rules,
regulations that are, in fact, the certain restrictions over the behaviour
of people.
>From my point, the Americans have enormous amount of restrictions, much more
that the
russians have, however, hardly it is a totalitar state -- it is rather a
police state with totalitar
sense regarding the other world. They behave like Roman Imperia in the
Ancient times!
About my dreams:
I simply told that I would like to live in Soviet Union but I didn't say
that it is my dream (you maybe naively
believe that we (the Russians) loaf between the 'old fashioned totalitarism'
and Jewish sort of democracy).
******I personally dream just about 5 billion well educated Russians living
in their own country.********
Vladimir
hollasraka
"Vladimir Korostelev" <ko...@baltnet.ru> wrote:
[...]
> There were a lot of other prominent people who believe in Communist
> ideas and hardly they were
> the losers. At least, Stalin surely deserves much more respectation
than
> Gorbatchov!
Excuse me, do you have any idea how absurd you sound? Imagine saying
Hitler deserves more respect than, say Lech Walesa (sp?).
Gorbachev deserves kudos for bringing down perhaps the most devilishly
sinister empire the world has ever known, a government system
responsible at worst for the systematic death of millions upon million
of ITS OWN people, and during the so called best of times, the forced
denial of basic human rights, individual liberties and freedoms for all
of its lab specimens, pardon me: citizens. Period. The USSR could
never have evolved into a Utopian state. "It was too broken to be
fixed."
As for Communism (outside the USSR), the record speaks for itself.
Read the Black Book of Communism to discover what happens each and
every time communists seize power. Truly, some of the ugliest and
darkest chapters in human history.
HS
--
"That is what the Kozaks have to say to thee, thou basest born of
runts! Unfit art thou to lord it over true Christians...and thou canst
kiss us thou knowest where!"
Koshoviy Otaman Ivan Sirko and all the Ukrainian Zaporozhian Kozak
Brotherhood,
Letter to the Turkish Sultan, 1660
viki
> I wrote:
> > > I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would
> like
> > > to live
> > > in Soviet Union.
As a member of nomenclature?
> >
> > So do all kind of Stalinists and commies plus all those losers who
> > dream about guaranteed by the state a stinky place in a communal flat ,
a
> > miserable wage and lousy medical care in exchange of total control over
> > minds and souls a lack of personal freedom and giving up all rights to
> the
> > state to take responsibility over your destiny.
> > But in spite of all that you have all rights to live in the Soviet Union
,
> > at least in your dreams that's for sure.
> >
> > staten
> >
> Thank you! Well, I will try to explain [though you give that kind of
> response that
> hardly deserves an answer].
>
> About the losers:
If You do not know, there are losers, many losers in the area of former SU.
They might remember the old times, soviet times, more "rozy", throug pink
glasses. Peoples mind is build so, that the better things (useles roubles in
Your pocket) You remember better than the misery (repulsion): empty shops,
long queues, travelling limitations, black market, bureaucraucy,...
There are also some ones who have gained: former directors of
(state)companies, army officers who had connections, politicians of
communist party(appratniki), etc. In generel former nomenclatura used all
their possiblilites and "privatized" russia.
Who ownes Gasprom, coal mines, metallurgy, crude oil, all the richnesses of
nature...? Not the poor Russians or state, no, they have been "privatized".
This all has happened silently while there has been a loud discussion:
should a farmer own the agricultural land, should he have right to sell it
to anybody or use as a secrity when receiving a credit? NO, never, sayes
Russian people, we have not such tradition, the land of mother Russia is
holy... nobody has right to sell it. And the agricultural production goes
down and all the nature treasures of Russia are "privatized".
> I don't know what kind of home you have but I am satisfied in full with my
3
> room flat and
> 2 floor stone countryhouse with fireplace and nice roof, at 30 km from
> Kaliningrad. I built
> it myself. I am a landlord and have a plant btw. Hardly I can consider
> myself as a loser.
Nomenclatura?
> Last time I worked in the University of Oklahoma, Norman, US as the
Visiting
> Research
> Associate and right now intend to work in Trinity College Dublin, Ireland.
I
> also have the
> job offers from the Brighton University, Sheffield Hallam Univ., the UK;
> Oakland Univ.,
> the US and so on....
> As I know about my relatives nobody of them was any sort of losers --
> GrandPa had a wood
> manufacturing plant in Tzar times and was a head (predsedatel') of kolkhoz
> in thirties in Ural
> and Siberia though all around knew that he was a capitalist and their
master
> few years ago.
> This is some sort of strong master like Henry Ford (the Founder) to
certain
> degree. He had
> absolutely no irritation regarding Soviets and everyday red 'Pravda' from
> first page to its end
Good boy (maladiets), surviving is the most essential desire of organism
called Homo Sapiens, especially social and cultural needs are quite far in
the hieracy.
> though he lose all his capital; he had been considering the real things
> just as real, without
> any political bias. He often told me -- 'never be glad to a gain and never
> regret about a lose'.
> Anyway, the most of Russians are really become some sort of losers in
last
> ten years. We lived
> much better in the Soviet times then in the modern time; this is the only
> reason why Jewish democrats
> in Russia cannot get at any vote more than 6-10% of votes .
Jewish democrats??? But why they do not gain here? Or do they? Are they only
disguised so that children would not be afraid of them?
I also believe
> that such people as Igor
> Tamm and Jores Alferov (the Nobel Prize Winners in Physics) aren't the
> losers though both are in fact
> strong socialists (note:Tamm had died many years ago) and both are the
> members of the Communist
> Party.
"Are members" - "died many years ago" Post mortal membership... interesting.
As You know, if You wanted to get progress on Your carreer in SU, if You
wanted once make a trip to West or participate a scientific meeting with
western scientist, it was essential to have the membership of Communist
Party. The members of CP made upper class in SU (10 % of population?) and 1
% of them made the nomenclatura. They had shops, hotels, holiday resorts
etc. only for them. In general - a mean and a selfish person would like that
kind of life, not only pover of capital but also pover of totalitaric system
over the "normal people". ("Back to SSSR" sang a pop group called Beatles,
have You heard)
There were a lot of other prominent people who believe in Communist
> ideas and hardly they were
> the losers. At least, Stalin surely deserves much more respectation than
> Gorbatchov!
I respect Stalin because he propably saved Finland by killing all the
experienced higher officers 1937-1939 (all who were same age or older,
threat to his position). Only young officers were left when he attacted to
Finland in Winter War -39. We survived, thanks his paranea.
But otherways, a dictator who has killed millions of his own people, and
built sturctures of horror into his country, does not deserve some peace
prize or respectation of any humanist!
>
> About the total control over mind:
> It's is impossible to control mind -- I know it as a scientist and I hope
> you do. The only
> possible thing is to take a control over the behaviour
In totalitaric countries controling of behaviour is more important than
freedom of individual, that is the differece.
and each country has
> certain rules,
In each head should be certain rules of decency!
> regulations that are, in fact, the certain restrictions over the behaviour
> of people.
> >From my point, the Americans have enormous amount of restrictions, much
more
> that the
> russians have, however, hardly it is a totalitar state -- it is rather a
> police state with totalitar
> sense regarding the other world. They behave like Roman Imperia in the
> Ancient times!
>
> About my dreams:
>
> I simply told that I would like to live in Soviet Union but I didn't say
> that it is my dream (you maybe naively
> believe that we (the Russians) loaf between the 'old fashioned
totalitarism'
> and Jewish sort of democracy).
Tell me more about "Jewish sort of democracy", how it differes from
Scandinavian type?
viki
Sorry! "Back to the USSR" ??? Correct? Who remembers the Year (1968?)
Vladimir Korostelev
hollasraka
> Excuse me, do you have any idea how absurd you sound? Imagine saying
> Hitler deserves more respect than, say Lech Walesa (sp?).
>
aren't interesting for me; I care just about the Russian people and don't
care about the other people.
> As for Communism (outside the USSR), the record speaks for itself.
> Read the Black Book of Communism to discover what happens each and
> every time communists seize power. Truly, some of the ugliest and
> darkest chapters in human history.
I'm not interesting about this sort of the American propaganda.
Vladimir Korostelev
> >
> > As You know, if You wanted to get progress on Your carreer in SU, if You
> > wanted once make a trip to West or participate a scientific meeting with
> > western scientist, it was essential to have the membership of Communist
> > Party. The members of CP made upper class in SU (10 % of population?)
absolutely not. Mikhalkov (author of the text of the Soviet anthem)
wasn't a communist then and it isn't actually important to be a communist
in order to be successful. It is usual idea of non-talanted people that it
is
necessary to be a member of something to succed. I am also isn't a
communist though I respect communists very much. I think that I shall vote
for them in the next presedential compaign. All previous times I voted for
Eltsine (two times) -- I regret about it, and one time for Putin.
> > I respect Stalin because he propably saved Finland by killing all the
> > experienced higher officers 1937-1939 (all who were same age or older,
> > threat to his position). Only young officers were left when he attacted
to
> > Finland in Winter War -39. We survived, thanks his paranea.
I think that there were the same kind of mistake we had in the first Chechen
war and in the beginning of SWW. It were in fact technical mistakes and the
mistakes linked with wrong management. However the border was moved
then more western from Leningrad right before Hitler begun his invasion.
Finland helped him. I just regret that we didn't terminate Finland then; but
I
think that we could make it so time later -- it should be not a large
problem
if to use just Air Forces and missiles. Though it isn't of any importance
now
because we don't consider Finland as an enemy now . Then (in the SWW)
Finland was an enemy because it supported Nazi. We fought with Nazi.
> >
> > But otherways, a dictator who has killed millions of his own people,
Stalin didn't kill them (listen yourself -- how stupid it) it was something
like
Civil War. Russians had many problems that they tried to solve. Stalin tried
to make Russia strong -- it is why I respect him.
> >
> > In totalitaric countries controling of behaviour is more important than
> > freedom of individual, that is the differece.
> >
western people have just illussion of freedom, no more.
> > Tell me more about "Jewish sort of democracy", how it differes from
> > Scandinavian type?
I don't know much about Scandinavians. I saw many
Norway/Swedish/Irish/Scottish
guys when lived in the US, in Minnesota, but they already become the
Americans.
L.Gordeev
> I respect Stalin because he propably saved Finland by killing all the
> experienced higher officers 1937-1939 (all who were same age or older,
> threat to his position).
Just for the record, Weirdo. No such threat ever existed. Well, Adolf
Hitler might have been a prominent exception, although the guy was not an
"experienced higher officer".
> Only young officers were left when he attacted to
> Finland in Winter War -39. We survived, thanks his paranea.
Hmm, then, his "paranea" was not "paraneaid" enough, eh? Uncle Joe could
easily eliminate any single Finn in the aftermath of WWII if he wished.
> But otherways, a dictator who has killed millions of his own people, and
> built sturctures of horror into his country, does not deserve some peace
> prize or respectation of any humanist!
So you are no humanist (see above).
> In each head should be certain rules of decency!
Well, you are an exception (see above).
L.G
hollasraka
"Vladimir Korostelev" <ko...@baltnet.ru> wrote:
>
> hollasraka
> > Excuse me, do you have any idea how absurd you sound? Imagine
saying
> > Hitler deserves more respect than, say Lech Walesa (sp?).
> >
> It is just your opinion. I don't think so and the both Hitler and
Valensa
> aren't interesting for me; I care just about the Russian people and
don't
> care about the other people.
Spoken like a true Russian chauvanist.
>
> > As for Communism (outside the USSR), the record speaks for itself.
> > Read the Black Book of Communism to discover what happens each and
> > every time communists seize power. Truly, some of the ugliest and
> > darkest chapters in human history.
>
> I'm not interesting about this sort of the American propaganda.
For your information, the book is written by half a dozen world
renowned historians - French, Polish, German.... (I do not believe
there not an American in the bunch - although I shall have to check my
copy when I get home to be sure). It is a large compendium of several
studies on the terrible human toll communism had in countries where
communists actually were able to form a government and stay in power.
It deals with facts. It exposes the crimes of governments such as the
USSR, China, Cambodia and others who went about terrorizing their own
citizens with impunity. It is about abuse of power in situations where
there were no checks in balances. It is not a piece of propaganda -
although some may use it for this means (it is brilliantly written,
factually correct, and difficult to discredit).
By the way, how does a die-hard communist such as yourself
ideologically rationalize living in the bastion of capitalism: the
USA? You should apply to emigrate to China.
hollasraka
something
> like
> Civil War. Russians had many problems that they tried to solve.
Stalin tried
> to make Russia strong -- it is why I respect him.
You respect mass murderers then. By the way: why must Russia be
strong? What is wrong with aiming for something a little less
threatening - like just. Why can't Russia focus on simply building a
just society - and stop the preoccupation with "Greatness?"
> > > In totalitaric countries controling of behaviour is more
important than
> > > freedom of individual, that is the differece.
> > >
>
> western people have just illussion of freedom, no more.
Care to explain?
Vladimir Korostelev
hollasraka wrote
> > I care just about the Russian people and don't
> > care about the other people.
>
> Spoken like a true Russian chauvanist.
The name of this group is soc.culture.russian and if you are an Ukranian
then what you're doing here? You might be concerned about Ukraine.
Why people from Finland are so active in this forum? Finland isn't a
part of Russia already for almost a hundred years! What they are doing
here? I know no Russians who would be concerned about Finland and
no groups where the Russians would give the suggestions to Finns (I'mn't
even sure about the correct spelling of Fin in plural -- another evidence
that I don't care about 'em). I have no claims to any western state then
why
all these 'participants' have so much to say to Russians?? Nobody asks them.
>
> For your information, the book is written by half a dozen world
> renowned historians - French, Polish, German....
all of it is garbage. I know who is writing such things. You list the guys
from France, Poland, Germany -- all these countries initiated military
invasions into Russia in their times and all of them failed. What kind
of book I can expect of them? Everybody uses his own brain, I prefer
to use my own.
> By the way, how does a die-hard communist such as yourself
> ideologically rationalize living in the bastion of capitalism: the
> USA? You should apply to emigrate to China.
>
> HS
thank you! ;)) I amn't an immigrant. I have my
Motherland where I am okay. I travel in many
countries (including the south western babyboomers
like China and Singapore too) simply because I am
a curious man and a professional.
I like to know more, to see new places, to learn
new languages, to meet new friends . [ Btw it
seems that you're an Ukranian immigrant
living in Canada, if you are an Ukranian you could
live in Ukraine -- though I certainly don't care about it.]
viki
>
> > >
> > > As You know, if You wanted to get progress on Your carreer in SU, if
You
> > > wanted once make a trip to West or participate a scientific meeting
with
> > > western scientist, it was essential to have the membership of
Communist
> > > Party. The members of CP made upper class in SU (10 % of population?)
>
> absolutely not. Mikhalkov (author of the text of the Soviet anthem)
> wasn't a communist then and it isn't actually important to be a communist
> in order to be successful.
Actually not! But in former soviet system, da! (preferable a member of the
party)
It is usual idea of non-talanted people that it
> is
> necessary to be a member of something to succed. I am also isn't a
> communist though I respect communists very much. I think that I shall vote
> for them in the next presedential compaign. All previous times I voted for
> Eltsine (two times) -- I regret about it, and one time for Putin.
I hope that You will not regret :-(
>
>
> > > I respect Stalin because he propably saved Finland by killing all the
> > > experienced higher officers 1937-1939 (all who were same age or older,
> > > threat to his position). Only young officers were left when he
attacted
> to
> > > Finland in Winter War -39. We survived, thanks his paranea.
>
> I think that there were the same kind of mistake we had in the first
Chechen
> war and in the beginning of SWW. It were in fact technical mistakes and
the
> mistakes linked with wrong management. However the border was moved
> then more western from Leningrad right before Hitler begun his invasion.
> Finland helped him. I just regret that we didn't terminate Finland then;
but
> I
> think that we could make it so time later -- it should be not a large
> problem
> if to use just Air Forces and missiles. Though it isn't of any importance
> now
> because we don't consider Finland as an enemy now . Then (in the SWW)
> Finland was an enemy because it supported Nazi. We fought with Nazi.
That is not correct, You did not fight with nazi, You only had a contract
with them, how to divide all small useless countries (Molotov-Rippentrop
pact), it was during the winter war, before the WW2. But nasty Finland did
not agree with thought of Stalin and Hitler :)))
>
> > >
> > > But otherways, a dictator who has killed millions of his own people,
>
> Stalin didn't kill them (listen yourself -- how stupid it) it was
something
> like
> Civil War. Russians had many problems that they tried to solve. Stalin
tried
> to make Russia strong -- it is why I respect him.
A civil war in Russia 1935-39??? No, there was only one army, Stalins army.
>
> > >
> > > In totalitaric countries controling of behaviour is more important
than
> > > freedom of individual, that is the differece.
> > >
>
> western people have just illussion of freedom, no more.
I like my illusion, what is the other freedom like?
>
> > > Tell me more about "Jewish sort of democracy", how it differes from
> > > Scandinavian type?
>
> I don't know much about Scandinavians. I saw many
> Norway/Swedish/Irish/Scottish
> guys when lived in the US, in Minnesota, but they already become the
> Americans.
I know Scandinavian democracy, but because You know that Jewish type, tell
me about it and I tell the differences to You, OK
>
>
>
viki
"L.Gordeev" <lew.g...@uni-tuebingen.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.30.01010...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de..
Vladimir Korostelev
hollasraka wrote
> > Stalin didn't kill them (listen yourself -- how stupid it) it was
> something
> > like
> > Civil War. Russians had many problems that they tried to solve.
> Stalin tried
> > to make Russia strong -- it is why I respect him.
>
> You respect mass murderers then.
I didn't speak and didn't mean it. I wrote that there were absolutely
objective things that had been raising much earlier than Stalin was
born. I mean the Russian revolutions, social perturbations that were
else in 19 century.
About Stalin's purges: I think that if the Russians provided the war
against each other then it is a matter of their responsibility, it isn't
good to make responsible the persona who died many years ago.
Stalin was just partly responsible, no more. I would like to emphasize:
there were objective problems, and the Russians couldn't solve these
problems by any of the peaceful ways. If someone reduces whole history
of the Soviet Union to Stalin's purges then s/he just shows how biased s/he
is. I respect history of my state and Stalin is a bright persona in its
history -
he surely deserves some respectation, much more than Gorbatchov, from
my point, because I see nothing positive in his ideas. I think that westerns
constantly overestimate his real contribution just because he destroyed the
Soviet Union.
> By the way: why must Russia be
> strong? What is wrong with aiming for something a little less
> threatening - like just. Why can't Russia focus on simply building a
> just society - and stop the preoccupation with "Greatness?"
Historically, from the times of Ivan Terrible, Russia gained new lands in
all
possible towards till it faced with Europeans at west, with North Ocean at
North,
with Pasific Ocean at East and with Muslims at South. It was a greate many-
centuries stage in the Russian history continued till 20 century. The both
World
Wars showed that Russians are able to defend their land and Europeans
understood that it isn't enough comfortable thing to fight against Russia --
some sort of political darwinism, you see. Some additional balance was also
stated because an availability of nuclear weapon to the both sides. Now we
need to make our economy effectively working, we need to improve management
at all levels -- our main problem and get microelectronic lesson from South
Western
babyboomers, and then it will be really great state! It isn't necessary at
all to use these
words 'great state' but it is necessary to be a great state! Actually, it
isn't matter what
someone says, the matter is what really goes on. I understand that it could
be threating
to some neighbours, especially if they are idiots a bit. Though hardly
Russia whenever will
need to gain new lands.
> >
> > western people have just illussion of freedom, no more.
>
> Care to explain?
>
> HS
Not, I believe that that is understandable without the additional
explanations.
Vladimir Korostelev
> Actually not! But in former soviet system, da! (preferable a member of the
> party)
I meant Soviet Union time -- Communist Party didn't ask to be its member.
People filled applications voluntirely. I personnaly know several scientists
who never was the communists but had high positions because of their
talent. They participated in conferences abroad without any restrictions.
>>Then (in the SWW) Finland was an enemy because it supported Nazi.
>>We fought with Nazi.
>
> That is not correct, You did not fight with nazi, You only had a contract
> with them, how to divide all small useless countries (Molotov-Rippentrop
> pact), it was during the winter war, before the WW2. But nasty Finland did
> not agree with thought of Stalin and Hitler :)))
Now all of you (Scandinavians, Baltic countries) manifestate yourself
as noble democrats; it's not true, you licked Nazi asses just to save your
lives and did nothing to fight against them. If Russians would failed in
Moscow battle and in Stalingrad then you (including other european states
such as Denmark, Holland, Poland and so on) hardly know you own language.
> A civil war in Russia 1935-39??? No, there was only one army, Stalins
army.
Something like Civil War. There were enormous suspicion (idea of fight)
among people, people were the conductors of violence themselves.
>
> I know Scandinavian democracy, but because You know that Jewish type, tell
> me about it and I tell the differences to You, OK
>
Thanks but the both aren't of any interest for me because
the both are pretty far from the Russian values.
viki
>
> > Actually not! But in former soviet system, da! (preferable a member of
the
> > party)
>
> I meant Soviet Union time -- Communist Party didn't ask to be its member.
> People filled applications voluntirely. I personnaly know several
scientists
> who never was the communists but had high positions because of their
> talent. They participated in conferences abroad without any restrictions.
There were no other choice!
>
>
> >>Then (in the SWW) Finland was an enemy because it supported Nazi.
> >>We fought with Nazi.
> >
> > That is not correct, You did not fight with nazi, You only had a
contract
> > with them, how to divide all small useless countries (Molotov-Rippentrop
> > pact), it was during the winter war, before the WW2. But nasty Finland
did
> > not agree with thought of Stalin and Hitler :)))
>
> Now all of you (Scandinavians, Baltic countries) manifestate yourself
> as noble democrats; it's not true, you licked Nazi asses just to save your
> lives and did nothing to fight against them. If Russians would failed in
> Moscow battle and in Stalingrad then you (including other european states
> such as Denmark, Holland, Poland and so on) hardly know you own language.
And if Finns have cut off the life line of Leningrad trough lake Ladoga???
Speculation is a nice hobby, but now we only see the results of history.
Pain in Russian ass nowadays is Estonia, they are making a good progress in
their society, only less than ten years after Soviet occupation (or as You
say, voluntarely joining). You can see it from Estonian faces, they are no
more looking suspicious to the ground like some years ago. Now they have
their heads up and look into Your eyes!
>
> > A civil war in Russia 1935-39??? No, there was only one army, Stalins
> army.
>
> Something like Civil War. There were enormous suspicion (idea of fight)
> among people, people were the conductors of violence themselves.
So, despotism is the only system, that can keep Russia organised?
>
> >
> > I know Scandinavian democracy, but because You know that Jewish type,
tell
> > me about it and I tell the differences to You, OK
> >
> Thanks but the both aren't of any interest for me because
> the both are pretty far from the Russian values.
Agreed!
>
>
>
Yuriy Balandin
I enjoy reading your message in the newsgroup, as it is open and sincere. Though
I would not agree with some of your thoughts such as ⌠Stalin surely deserves much
more respectation (respect) than Gorbatchov!■ or ⌠It▓s impossible to control
mind■. I do not think so. I think, that you probably wanted to say that Stalin
was greater political figure in Russian history rather than Gorbatchev because
Stalin founded and ruled, in about 30 years, a strong nuclear state known as
USSR. Gorbatchev had power within several years and let the USSR to come apart in
a short time. From this point of view, Stalin is greater than Gorbatchev. But I
like what Gorbatchev did for the country : he conducted policy of ⌠glasnost■ (it
means that everybody may say what he think), policy of ⌠perestroika■ ( please
remember how Gorbatchev unsuccessfully tried to improve the USSR), policy of
democracy, pluralism of opinions and so on.
You wrote : ⌠There were a lot of other prominent people who believe in Communist
ideas and hardly they were the losers■.
In Soviet times to believe in communist idea meant to have advantages over the
people who did not believe in communism. That is why the most of prominent people
were communists in soviet time, I think. Now you may believe in what you want to,
but your success is your intention and choice. To have equal opportunities to get
a success for majority is a good idea we would believe in for now.
As for me , I am not a loser. I live in Russia and was in Great Britain,
London(1997) and in the USA, Indianapolis (2000). I am afraid that in the USSR I
could hardly have a dream of any trip abroad.
Finally, I want to say that I like to live in the union of republics we call
Russian Federation and I absolutely dislike living in any SOVIET country.
I forgot to say few words about national anthem. My idea is that neutral melody
such as Glinka▓s melody would be the best solution to the problem of national
anthem. The old soviet melody (USSR anthem) is a sign of communism idea. Even if
a new text is written for the soviet melody, the melody will always be too
ideological. Why should we make a step back to the soviet times having the old
soviet melody in the national anthem? Soviet idea and communism idea do not work
in the world. They both have died. A new alive melody should be composed for our
anthem.
Sincerely
Yuriy
kirill
Vladimir Korostelev wrote:
>
> hollasraka wrote
> > > I care just about the Russian people and don't
> > > care about the other people.
> >
> > Spoken like a true Russian chauvanist.
>
> The name of this group is soc.culture.russian and if you are an Ukranian
> then what you're doing here? You might be concerned about Ukraine.
Actually all of these "Ukrainians" are closet Polaks.
Centuries of Polish occupation of western Ukraine has
created a new people with a new culture, religion and
identity. They should just declare independence from
the rest of "Russified" Ukraine instead of trying to
impose their Polish-derivative culture on it.
Yuriy Balandin
I enjoy reading your message in the newsgroup, as it is open and sincere. Though
I would not agree with some of your thoughts such as ⌠Stalin surely deserves much
more respectation (respect) than Gorbatchov!■ or ⌠It▓s impossible to control
mind■. I do not think so. I think, that you probably wanted to say that Stalin
was greater political figure in Russian history rather than Gorbatchev because
Stalin founded and ruled, in about 30 years, a strong nuclear state known as
USSR. Gorbatchev had power within several years and let the USSR to come apart in
a short time. From this point of view, Stalin is greater than Gorbatchev. But I
like what Gorbatchev did for the country : he conducted policy of ⌠glasnost■ (it
means that everybody may say what he think), policy of ⌠perestroika■ ( please
remember how Gorbatchev unsuccessfully tried to improve the USSR), policy of
democracy, pluralism of opinions and so on.
You wrote : ⌠There were a lot of other prominent people who believe in Communist
ideas and hardly they were the losers■. In Soviet times to believe in communist
idea meant to have advantages over the people who did not believe in communism..
That is why the most of prominent people were communists in soviet time, I think.
Now you may believe in what you want to, but your success is your intention and
choice. To have equal opportunities to get a success for majority is a good idea
we would believe in for now.
As for me , I am not a loser. I live in Russia and was in Great Britain,
London(1997) and in the USA, Indianapolis (2000). I am afraid that in the USSR I
could hardly have a dream of any trip abroad.
Finally, I want to say that I like to live in the union of republics we call
Russian Federation and I absolutely dislike living in any SOVIET country.
I forgot to say few words about national anthem. My idea is that neutral melody
such as Glinka▓s melody would be the best solution to the problem of national
anthem. The old soviet melody (USSR anthem) is a sign of communism idea. Even if
a new text is written for the soviet melody, the melody will always be too
ideological. Why should we make a step back to soviet times having the old soviet
melody in the national anthem? Soviet idea and communism idea do not work in the
world. They both have died. A new alive melody should be composed for our
anthem..
Sincerely
Yuriy
Wayne Brown
news:3a52...@news.baltnet.ru...
(much interesting material snipped to save space)
> About my dreams:
>
> I simply told that I would like to live in Soviet Union but I didn't say
> that it is my dream (you maybe naively
> believe that we (the Russians) loaf between the 'old fashioned
totalitarism'
> and Jewish sort of democracy).
> ******I personally dream just about 5 billion well educated Russians
living
> in their own country.********
>
> Vladimir
That sounds like a good dream. As far as the Soviet Union is concerned, the
Russian Federation has free elections and the voters could vote to
re-establish a communist-style political system in the country. But the
majority, as far as I can tell, is not eager to return to the old regime. Is
that not so?
Regards,-----WB.
Wayne Brown
(My comment addresses the following):
> I didn't speak and didn't mean it. I wrote that there were absolutely
> objective things that had been raising much earlier than Stalin was
> born. I mean the Russian revolutions, social perturbations that were
> else in 19 century.
> About Stalin's purges: I think that if the Russians provided the war
> against each other then it is a matter of their responsibility, it isn't
> good to make responsible the persona who died many years ago.
> Stalin was just partly responsible, no more. I would like to emphasize:
> there were objective problems, and the Russians couldn't solve these
> problems by any of the peaceful ways. If someone reduces whole history
> of the Soviet Union to Stalin's purges then s/he just shows how biased
s/he
> is. I respect history of my state and Stalin is a bright persona in its
> history -
> he surely deserves some respectation, much more than Gorbatchov, from
> my point, because I see nothing positive in his ideas. I think that
westerns
> constantly overestimate his real contribution just because he destroyed
the
> Soviet Union.
This sounds like "Don't speak ill of the dead" and "tsarstvo emu nebesnoe."
I think we should look at a modern Russian source concerning Stalin. The
publishing house which issues the "Large Russian Encyclopedia" in Moscow
published a Russian Almanac in 1998, including biographical sketches of
leading figures in the Soviet Union and Russia. The article about Stalin
says in part: "In the 1920s during a struggle for leadership for leadership
in the party and state, using the party apparatus and political intrigues,
he took over the party and set up a totalitarian regime in the country. In
the late 1920s and 1930s Stalin annihilated real and imaginary opponents,
the initiator of mass terror. From the late 1930s he conducted a policy of
rapprochement with fascist Germany, which led to a tragedy for the nation in
the Great Patriotic War."
What can be said about Stalin after that devastating criticism of him by
some of the most learned men and women of Russia today?
Regards,-----WB.
swi...@my-deja.com
I see that this account says <nothing> about Stalins attempts to reach
rapproachment with the British and French, attempts that were
consistently rebuffed.
> What can be said about Stalin after that devastating criticism of him
> by some of the most learned men and women of Russia today?
From their omissions, it seems that the learned still have a bit to
learn.
--
---
Stuart Wilkes
hollasraka
Swilkes,
As has been pointed out to you before: not eagerly establishing
harmonious relations with a tyrant is something most people would
consider honourable. That Roosevelt was successfully duped and played
into Uncle Joe's trap, against Churchill's advise, only shows how ill-
advised the Americans were about the USSR.
By the way, I'm currently reading The Mitrokhin Archive - The KGB in
Europe and the West by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.
Fascinating expose and very relevant to our earlier discussion on the
Red Army in WWII. Among other things, Mitrokhin successfully argues
that it was highly classified intelligence from British spies like
Philby which gave the already 4 to 1 numerically superior Red Army the
edge in key battles such as at Kursk. Time permitting, I would be more
than happy to supply you with ample citations from the book.
Once again, I can find little to support your dream theories vis-a-vis
superior Red Army leadership and combat superiority. Moreover, the KGB
records clearly show that Stalin ignored hundreds of intelligence
reports concerning a pending Barbarossa and did nothing to prepare the
USSR for the invasion.
HS
>
> > What can be said about Stalin after that devastating criticism of
him
> > by some of the most learned men and women of Russia today?
>
> From their omissions, it seems that the learned still have a bit to
> learn.
> --
> ---
>
> Stuart Wilkes
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
>
--
"That is what the Kozaks have to say to thee, thou basest born of
runts! Unfit art thou to lord it over true Christians...and thou canst
kiss us thou knowest where!"
Koshoviy Otaman Ivan Sirko and all the Ukrainian Zaporozhian Kozak
Brotherhood,
Letter to the Turkish Sultan, 1660
swi...@my-deja.com
That is interesting, considering Neville Chamberlain's vision of
"England and Germany as pillars of European peace"
> By the way, I'm currently reading The Mitrokhin Archive - The KGB in
> Europe and the West by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.
> Fascinating expose and very relevant to our earlier discussion on the
> Red Army in WWII. Among other things, Mitrokhin successfully argues
> that it was highly classified intelligence from British spies like
> Philby which gave the already 4 to 1 numerically superior Red Army the
> edge in key battles such as at Kursk. Time permitting, I would be
> more than happy to supply you with ample citations from the book.
Again, the intelligence successes that led to the Kursk victory are
hardly news.
> Once again, I can find little to support your dream theories vis-a-vis
> superior Red Army leadership and combat superiority.
<Where> do you get this? I am very well aware of the deficiencies of
the Red Army vis-a-vis the German Wehrmacht, especially in the early
part of the war. I have said only that the Red Army's initial
performance under the Blitzkrieg was no worse, and sometimes better
than, the initial performance of the Polish, Anglo-French, and American
armies under the Blitzkrieg.
> Moreover, the
> KGB records clearly show that Stalin ignored hundreds of intelligence
> reports concerning a pending Barbarossa and did nothing to prepare the
> USSR for the invasion.
Stalin indeed made grave mistakes and miscalculations in the period
leading up to Operation Barbarossa. However, I await your rebuttal of
my contention that Stalin ordered mobilization and preparation of
strategic reserves and the maintenance of the 1938 border fortifications
as well as the construction of fortifications on the 1941 borders.
Vladimir Korostelev
viki
> Pain in Russian ass nowadays is Estonia, they are making a good progress
in
> their society, only less than ten years after Soviet occupation (or as You
> say, voluntarely joining). You can see it from Estonian faces, they are no
> more looking suspicious to the ground like some years ago. Now they have
> their heads up and look into Your eyes!
>
clap..clap..clap
I don't mean that viki has a clap.
Let's apploud that what has happened
with the faces of Estonians!!! wugga uhh!
Vladimir Korostelev
Wayne Brown
> the voters could vote to
> re-establish a communist-style political system in the country. But the
> majority, as far as I can tell, is not eager to return to the old regime.
Is
> that not so?
you are right, the most of them don't want to live in the Soviet Union. It
simply means that they want something better, but the most of the same
voters believe, from my point, that Soviet Union wasn't a wrong country.
Btw my feel is that at least one democratic idea (free vote) in Russia is
firmly established now.
L.Gordeev
Heh, WB, welcome back in the madhouse!
As for Stalin vs Gorbachev, my humble suspicion is this. To paraphrise
JFK, many a Russian (esp. born after 1953) can say, well, Mr Stalin was a
son of a bitch, but he was *our* son of a bitch. After all, "he" managed
to mobilize Russians to make great deeds. Whereas Mr Gorbachev was "their"
son of a bitch. He managed to sell "his" empire literally for nothing to
the "enemy". Now (esp. after Kosovo) that the notion of the US enemy is
being gradually reincarnated in Russia, this difference plays a crucial
role. It's just a pre-prewar mood ... after all, the old Anthem was a
Great Patriotic War creation ...
L.G
Mark Brooks
German...oops... I mean Russian friend Gordy?
It wasn't Stalin so much that was responsible for "great" Russian deeds;
moreso the credit goes to the NKVD and the soon to be dead people that did
the work.
After all, who really was responsible for things like the White Sea canal to
nowhere? Dead Russians built it.
Why did 24-27 million Russians die during WWII? Seems to me Russia could
have survived with far fewer deaths.
Russian industrialization? Again built upon the backs and the graves of
so-called "criminals" who were in fact just ordinary citizens.
3 to 4 million dead Ukranians due to a contrived famine? Yeah, take credit
for that too.
The list goes on...endlessly.
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@mail.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.30.010104...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de.
..
hollasraka
"Mark Brooks" <mbro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Good points Mark. In this regard, here is something else to consider:
According to the Mitrokhin archives, many if not most of the
technological soviet achievements, those which to a large degree were
responsible for catapulting the USSR into the modern world and those,
which ironically, are used by ignorant sovoks as proof positive of
Russian / soviet greatness, were based on STOLEN information /
technology from the west. "By Christmas 1943, [soviet spies] had
provided classified information on the construction of atomic reactors,
their cooling system, the production of plutonium from irradaiated
uranium, and protection against radiation....S&T stolen from the US and
Britain made a critical contribution to the development of Soviet
radar, radio technology, submarines, jet engines, aircraft with
synthetic rubber as well as nuclear weapons." (pg 155)
This, of course, casts a doubt on all soviet mechanical, civil and
space engineering advancements.
Most if not all of the KGB/NKVD recruits who stole the information were
brainwashed Marxist zealots. McCarthy, and the American public, had no
idea just how badly they were being fleesed, and the Russians to this
day have no idea just how shallow their so called former Greatness was
(actually I take that back: they do not want to know - its too painful).
HS
--
swi...@my-deja.com
"Mark Brooks" <mbro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> German...oops... I mean Russian friend Gordy?
>
> It wasn't Stalin so much that was responsible for "great" Russian
deeds;
> moreso the credit goes to the NKVD and the soon to be dead people that
did
> the work.
> After all, who really was responsible for things like the White Sea
canal to
> nowhere? Dead Russians built it.
>
> Why did 24-27 million Russians die during WWII? Seems to me Russia
> could have survived with far fewer deaths.
If the Germans had waged their campaign in the West with the genocidal
fury they showed in the Soviet Union, then the death toll in
France/Belgium/Netherlands, etc could well have been comparable to that
which followed Operation Barbarossa. Give the Germans credit for this
one.
--
---
Stuart Wilkes
Vladimir Korostelev
>Though
> I would not agree with some of your thoughts such as “Stalin surely
deserves much
> more respectation (respect) than Gorbatchov!
..... >I think, that you probably wanted to say that Stalin
> was greater political figure in Russian history rather than Gorbatchev
because
> Stalin founded and ruled, in about 30 years,
......>Gorbatchev had power within several years and let the USSR to come
apart in
> a short time. From this point of view, Stalin is greater than Gorbatchev.
But I
> like what Gorbatchev did for the country : he conducted policy of
“glasnost” (it
> means that everybody may say what he think), policy of “perestroika”
please
> remember how Gorbatchev unsuccessfully tried to improve the USSR), policy
of
> democracy, pluralism of opinions and so on.
Well, lets talk more about it. Gorbatchov is a vivid, open, good -
looking leader having attractive intelligence. He surely looked
then much better than old relicts ruled right before him.
However, the things you mentioned -- glasnost',perestroyka ,
pluralism, democracy are just words. It is important to have a
responsible ruler who knows the price of the words s/he uses;
Gorbatchov, otherwise told for hours around the unclearly defined
terms. Why? I suppose that the only thing that had been drove him
was his enormous ego. It is extremely bad when someone in power
has enormous ego. Another kind of ruler was one of the Prime
Ministers of Japan, who died several months ago. The reason of his
death was illness conjugated with overwork -- do you remember how
he looked (tape about him was shown in tv news few times)? Close,
decent and responsible elderly. He thought about his people,
he couldn't let himself to demonstrate his ego and 'knowledge about
all around'. He is like Putin and Stalin, from certain point. Stalin was
close, decent and responsible.He understood well the meaning of hi
tech for an industrial development and independence.
Why he isn't more good than Gorbatchov? Though at recent stage I
would prefer to say that the both were wrong in some things; but I am
completely unsatisfied with the results Gorbatchov had. The population
of Russia has decreased in last ten years on 6 million people -- it was
triggered by irresponsible policy of Gorbatchov. Any politician who
comes in power must be extremely responsible, he must give up his ego
in full and be urgent for actions (real reforms). Btw, a good way to give
up the egos of our generals in Army is to force them to run long distances
with Kalashnikoff guns every morning for some exercise. It would
accelerate a speed of their sense. Ego of any politician, official or a boss
in a company isn't a matter; the matter is a result. { Good book highly
recommended: E.Vogel, Japan as number one: Lessons for American;
these used books are available at http://www.alibris.com for $6.00; use
search engine}
Japanese are an exciting example how to run economy well. They have
almost no natural resources -- it is their eternal problem -- but they make
their economy the second in the world because of spirit of
responsibility and hard-working style of life. They made wrong cars in
fifties (their first car was made from wood(?!!) but they got the American
car market in seventies. What kind of cars Americans prefer to buy?
Japanese. Isn't it an indicator? So I rather pay an attention to the results
that Gorbatchev got than to the ideas he announced though I agree with
his ideas. If Russians were learn from such teachers (instead of
talking with these ideologically biased westerns ) and if to take into
account that Russia has the biggest natural resources in the world then I
would predict some sort of the Russian Rennaisance in the next
century.
> In Soviet times to believe in communist idea meant to have advantages over
the
> people who did not believe in communism. That is why the most of prominent
people
> were communists in soviet time, I think.
There were many people who were nice communists.
I am also highly respectful to Fidel Castro. He is real
communist! He knows excellently the meaning of com
munist values.
He is a representative of the third world, and it is growing
trend that third world will play leading role in close future,
at least anglosaxon world will be consequently lose its
power from year to year.
> To have equal opportunities to get a success for
>majority is a good idea we would believe in for now.
Soviet Union was particularly well fitted to an average
citizen's interests (I don't mean the losers though what's
wrong with losers? -- they are also people -- any sort
of darwinism should be restricted). He could get free
medic care, free worldly recognized University's edu
cation (btw I graduated from provincial university but
worked well in the western universities). Another problem,
that nice educated people from the central Moscow weren't
already satisfied with it; they wanted more.
Nevertheless, the intersts of the Russian peasants, for
instance, are more important, from my point, than
the interests of some particular elite. Though all things
work otherwise sometimes.
> Finally, I want to say that I like to live in the union of
>republics we call Russian Federation and I absolutely
>dislike living in any SOVIET country.
Well, all people are different -- it surely makes the world
wonderfull. At least modern Russia is well fitted to the
interests of individuals but hardly meets the interests
of the Russians as a nation.
> I forgot to say few words about national anthem.
>My idea is that neutral melody such as Glinka's
>melody would be the best solution to the problem of
>national anthem. The old soviet melody (USSR anthem)
>is a sign of communism idea. Even if a new text is written
>for the soviet melody, the melody will always be too
> ideological. Why should we make a step back to the
>soviet times having the old soviet melody in the national
>anthem? Soviet idea and communism idea do
>not work in the world. They both have died. A new alive
>melody should be composed for our anthem.
My observation is that new anthem is really approved by the
most of Russians. It's serious indicator and it is enough itself
to accept this anthem without any objections. I personnaly like
this anthem very much!
Nevertheless, thanks a lot for your comments 'n' objections
-- it is nice for me to hear from a Russian here.
Sincerely Yours,
Vladimir
Mark Brooks
the end of the first year of the Russo-German war. Probably most of those
never returned home.
There's 3 million right there that never really even had a chance to
properly defend themselves due to their loving Uncle Joe's refusal to
believe the obvious. 3 million guys, even Russian peasants, should have been
able to put up at least a halfway decent accounting of themselves.
<swi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:932m54$tkf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
swi...@my-deja.com
"Mark Brooks" <mbro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> If I remember correctly, there was something like 3 million Russian
POW's by
> the end of the first year of the Russo-German war. Probably most of
> those never returned home.
By the end of 1941, the Germans had taken about 3 million Soviet troops
prisoner, with a total of about 5.5 million by the end of the war. Of
these, 3.3 million did not survive captivity in the German camps.
By comparison, the Germans took 1.6 million prisoners from the French
alone, in the six weeks from May 10, 1940 to June 22, 1940. And this
was in a war that the British and French had declared, <nine months>
before the German attack.
> There's 3 million right there that never really even had a chance to
> properly defend themselves due to their loving Uncle Joe's refusal to
> believe the obvious.
The specific timing of Operation Barbarossa wasn't so obvious at the
time. For instance, it wasn't until the middle of June 1941 that
British intelligence concluded that the Germans had decided to attack.
> 3 million guys, even Russian peasants, should have been
> able to put up at least a halfway decent accounting of themselves.
From the begining of Barbarossa, the Germans themselves considered that
campaign the toughest they had had to that point in the war, and it just
got worse and worse for them as the war continued.
staten
| > > I don't think that Soviet Union was wrong country. I personally would
| like
| > > to live
| > > in Soviet Union.
| >
| > So do all kind of Stalinists and commies plus all those losers who
| > dream about guaranteed by the state a stinky place in a communal flat ,
a
| > miserable wage and lousy medical care in exchange of total control over
| > minds and souls a lack of personal freedom and giving up all rights to
| the
| > state to take responsibility over your destiny.
| > But in spite of all that you have all rights to live in the Soviet Union
,
| > at least in your dreams that’s for sure.
| >
| > staten
| >
| Thank you! Well, I will try to explain [though you give that kind of
| response that
| hardly deserves an answer].
|
| About the losers:
| I don't know what kind of home you have but I am satisfied in full with my
3
| room flat and
| 2 floor stone countryhouse with fireplace and nice roof, at 30 km from
| Kaliningrad. I built
| it myself. I am a landlord and have a plant btw. Hardly I can consider
| myself as a loser.
|
Good for you, only don’t say that all this you could have when living in the
Soviet Union, unless you were involved in illegal activities in the black
market or stealing from the state as this business was wide spread at all
levels of society.
Last time I worked in the University of Oklahoma, Norman, US as the
Visiting
| Research
| Associate and right now intend to work in Trinity College Dublin, Ireland.
I
| also have the
| job offers from the Brighton University, Sheffield Hallam Univ., the UK;
| Oakland Univ.,
| the US and so on....
Again when living in the Soviet Union you would never see those places in
your life time unless you proved your loyalty to the regime through KGB and
Party refine system leaving an ordinary people zero chances to see even
Poland or East Germany .
As I know about my relatives nobody of them was any sort of losers --
| GrandPa had a wood
| manufacturing plant in Tzar times and was a head (predsedatel') of kolkhoz
| in thirties in Ural
| and Siberia though all around knew that he was a capitalist and their
master
| few years ago.
| This is some sort of strong master like Henry Ford (the Founder) to
certain
| degree.
Not many of the “formers” managed to survive purges when the whole groups
of people according to their class and a certain position in the society in
the pre-revolution Russia were liquidated. Therefore, a former capitalist
, as your grandparent, in a role of a kolkhoz chief administrator sounds
incredible , especially in 1930s.
He had
| absolutely no irritation regarding Soviets and everyday red 'Pravda' from
| first page to its end
| though he lose all his capital; he had been considering the real things
| just as real, without
| any political bias.
How would he know what “ real things” are look like, if any comparisons
and information from outside of the state was totally sealed and hidden from
regular people , but the “Pravda” printed nothing but lies?
He often told me -- 'never be glad to a gain and never
| regret about a lose'.
| Anyway, the most of Russians are really become some sort of losers in last
| ten years. We lived
| much better in the Soviet times then in the modern time;
You certainly could live much better if you were among the Soviet
nomenclatura – social parasites living at the expense of ordinary people.
this is the only
| reason why Jewish democrats
| in Russia cannot get at any vote more than 6-10% of votes .
What is the reason? And why you switched to Jews? Are Jews dominate Duma or
Russian society ? It absolutely doesn’t make sense unless you are a
brownshirt promoting your customary agenda.
I also believe
| that such people as Igor
| Tamm and Jores Alferov (the Nobel Prize Winners in Physics) aren't the
| losers though both are in fact
| strong socialists (note:Tamm had died many years ago) and both are the
| members of the Communist
| Party.
So do is Albert Makashov, you also should like him.
There were a lot of other prominent people who believe in Communist
| ideas and hardly they were
| the losers. At least, Stalin surely deserves much more respectation than
| Gorbatchov!
>From the point of view of stalinists like you he certainly does, to the rest
of decent people on this planet your Stalin is an embodiment of evil guilty
of genocide, killing millions of innocent people , creating unprecedented
rein of terror and the only what he deserves is a spitting on his grave.
| About the total control over mind:
| It's is impossible to control mind -- I know it as a scientist and I hope
| you do. The only
| possible thing is to take a control over the behaviour and each country
has
| certain rules,
| regulations that are, in fact, the certain restrictions over the behaviour
| of people.
In other words a prison or the Soviet Union is a perfect example of
“restriction over behavior” where restrictions reached a such degree that
crated spiritual vacuum that led to inevitable degradation what we witnessed
during the last seven decades of the last century. .
>From my point, the Americans have enormous amount of restrictions, much
more
| that the
| russians have, however, hardly it is a totalitar state -- it is rather a
| police state with totalitar
| sense regarding the other world. They behave like Roman Imperia in the
| Ancient times!
This is an ordinary stalinist garbage having no logic, no sense and
therefore deserving no comments. However for a scientist travelling around
the world and having scientific forums in the western prestigious
institutions a such view on present day America looks extremely uneducated
and inane.
So, your point could be easily understood and highly appreciated in a
company of drunk NKVD officers not scientists what in turn cast doubts on
your belonging to the world of science.
| About my dreams:
|
| I simply told that I would like to live in Soviet Union but I didn't say
| that it is my dream (you maybe naively
| believe that we (the Russians) loaf between the 'old fashioned
totalitarism'
| and Jewish sort of democracy).
Again, why democracy in Russia is Jewish? Do you intend to say that present
day system in Russia is Jewish creation or what? What this talk supposed to
mean?
| ******I personally dream just about 5 billion well educated Russians
living
| in their own country.********
|
| Vladimir
Now over 100 mill of well educated Russians are living in their country,
and if what happening in Russia is a result of “good education” , then it’s
better to be totally illiterate.
Vladimir Korostelev
staten
> Good for you, only don't say that all this you could have when living in
the
> Soviet Union, unless you were involved in illegal activities in the black
> market or stealing from the state as this business was wide spread at
all
> levels of society.
>
there were a lot of people who earned money at market, in agricultural
cooperatives
and the earned money was enough to bue a home, a new car. Many did so.
Especially
profitable was apiculture -- people, including my relatives, earned much
money pretty
quickly then. It is just one example of legal ways to earn much money.
However, many
things like free medic care and free (worldly recognized) university
education were free
-- the US for instance, is a prosperous state but you havn't it even now.
> Again when living in the Soviet Union you would never see those places in
> your life time unless you proved your loyalty to the regime through KGB
and
> Party refine system leaving an ordinary people zero chances to see even
> Poland or East Germany .
>
These are disparate things! I can enjoy travelling but I don't need it so
much to
compare with living in my own country that would be enough protected from
western capitalists.
> Not many of the “formers” managed to survive purges when the whole
groups
> of people according to their class and a certain position in the society
in
> the pre-revolution Russia were liquidated. Therefore, a former
capitalist
> , as your grandparent, in a role of a kolkhoz chief administrator sounds
> incredible , especially in 1930s.
>
There was such trend -- even many former Tzar officers served in Red Army.
> How would he know what “ real things” are look like, if any comparisons
> and information from outside of the state was totally sealed and hidden
from
> regular people , but the “Pravda” printed nothing but lies?
>
He was real Russian and wasn't very much interesting then about info
outside.
Though as I know he travelled to Cleveland, Ohio somewhere in 189È.
> You certainly could live much better if you were among the Soviet
> nomenclatura – social parasites living at the expense of ordinary people.
>
Sir, one of my values is labour. Do you think that it is easy to build large
stone
house in the times of recent 'reforms' having just small amount of money?
You
even don't understand what it means if you suppose that I could be a
bureaucrat.
> What is the reason? And why you switched to Jews? Are Jews dominate Duma
or
> Russian society ?
No. There are politicians in my country who promote their understanding of
democracy.
They aren't poor people and their policy supports certain capitalists; btw
their ideas have
no connection with people's needs. Why they are Jewes? I don't.
> So do is Albert Makashov, you also should like him.
No, you are wrong, I don't perceive him well.
Nothing from his ideas is valuable for me.
> From the point of view of stalinists like you he certainly does, to the
rest
> of decent people on this planet your Stalin is an embodiment of evil
guilty
> of genocide, killing millions of innocent people , creating unprecedented
> rein of terror and the only what he deserves is a spitting on his grave.
I just need to say that you understand almost nothing
about the current events in Russia. Can you explain
why many Russians like Soviet Union though from your
point it was a prison ? At least it shows that they don't
consider it as a prison.
> In other words a prison or the Soviet Union is a perfect example of
> “restriction over behavior” where restrictions reached a such degree that
> crated spiritual vacuum that led to inevitable degradation what we
witnessed
> during the last seven decades of the last century.
Soviet Union crushed Nazi who took Europe just in few years in SWW and made
the first step into cosmos.
> | From my point, the Americans have enormous amount of restrictions, much
> more
> | that the
> | russians have, however, hardly it is a totalitar state -- it is rather a
> | police state with totalitar
> | sense regarding the other world. They behave like Roman Imperia in the
> | Ancient times!
>
> This is an ordinary stalinist garbage having no logic, no sense and
> therefore deserving no comments. However for a scientist travelling around
> the world and having scientific forums in the western prestigious
> institutions a such view on present day America looks extremely uneducated
> and inane.
> So, your point could be easily understood and highly appreciated in a
> company of drunk NKVD officers not scientists what in turn cast doubts on
> your belonging to the world of science.
I'm sorry but what I said is a quote of Americans. I was terribly stunning
when realised that there is enormous latent hateness among different ethnic
groups living in the US - Whites, Blacks, Hispanic, Native Americans. They
really dislike each other though all they are Americans. 50% of American
kids
are raising without fathers -- too large for prosperous state. Prostitution
becomes
usual deal for many young Americans. It is enough to give two times a tip in
a store
to a cashier, in Homeland store, and if you are man visits store alone
you'll get a
card with a phone number of that guy -- I was discouraged getting such card
several
times, it is terrible, in fact. Do you think that it is a good country? I
certainly don't know.
I am certainly not sure that it is a good country. Look at yourself -- about
30% of
Americans are fat, overweighted people. If people work much then they cannot
be fat!
Do you think that your biotech food is a human food? It is rather a garbage.
I nowhere
saw such amount fat people as I saw in the US. If you're fat and don't work
hard then
why you're so prosperous?
My understanding of America is that its capital is unevenly distributed and
there are " fat
cats " -- capitalists around White House who influence the international
policy of the US in
order to earn some money else -- they pressed on Clinton to initiate bombing
in Kosovo,
it gave them new orders to produce more weapon. Whole world besides
Americans knows
it. Though many Americans also do. I was listening and comparing the local
radio (its name
sounds as kei-ti okay) station in Oklahoma, NPR from Chicago and federal
media in the time
of bombing and remarked enormous difference in their content! Your federal
media are censored
and they lied. I also stayed just few meters from Bob Dole, your politician,
at North Oval in
OU Campus during his speech -- he arrogantly lied about Yugoslavia -- and
some students let
him know what they think about him -- he got it).
In capitalistic world money handle the world, does Clinton earn much money?
Did Eltsine
earn much money?? Then who handle the world??? Americans got money, Serbs
got
bombing from western democrats and Russia keeps fullish silence -- I
disagree with it.
> Again, why democracy in Russia is Jewish?
No, no, no. I don't mean that Jewes are wrong people -- I feel that many
understand me
exactly so. I simply mean that Russians should handle Russia -- it would be
understandable,
it is a good culture -- to keep people in their own place because Russians
have internal state
sense -- they can be good militaries, rulers -- they fit to Russian
environment best. However,
if a Jew or a Chechen are more skilled in any field than a Russian then
they must get greater
wages -- it is too obvious to be discussed. And it would force some lazy
Russians to be more
skilled!
> day system in Russia is Jewish creation or what?
it is our own, Russian creation. We are staying in lines in
the Embassy at Novinsky Bulvar instead to build Russia.
What's shame!
>what in turn cast doubts on your belonging to the world of science.
I am a physicist and work in the field of Nuclear Magnetic and Quadrupole
Resonances.
One of my last adventures is a device for detection of drugs and explosives
in airports.
Patent: V.S.Grechishkin, V.V.Korostelev, NQR device for simultaneous
detection of
several kinds of explosives and drugs in luggage, RU 2128832 C1, 1999.
Are you satisfied Mr spy ? staten (?!) I don't care who you're.
L.Gordeev
> ...and who would know more about Russian patriotism than our good
> German...oops... I mean Russian friend Gordy?
>
> It wasn't Stalin so much that was responsible for "great" Russian deeds;
> moreso the credit goes to the NKVD and the soon to be dead people that did
> the work.
> After all, who really was responsible for things like the White Sea canal to
> nowhere? Dead Russians built it.
>
> Why did 24-27 million Russians die during WWII? Seems to me Russia could
> have survived with far fewer deaths.
>
> Russian industrialization? Again built upon the backs and the graves of
> so-called "criminals" who were in fact just ordinary citizens.
>
> 3 to 4 million dead Ukranians due to a contrived famine? Yeah, take credit
> for that too.
>
> The list goes on...endlessly.
Hi Mark, you lucky bastard, this time I'm gonna reply quite seriously:
And your point is?
Note that (except for having great fun reading numerous moronic postings -
regardless of topics) I'm merely trying to guess a/o analyze *why* things
are developing this or that way. Moral judgements is not my business. Once
again: Mr Gorbachev provoked great euphoria in diverse "normal" (I mean,
non-nationalistic) ex-Soviet minds, followed by even greater
disappointment after his pitiful failure in *everything* he tried to
address. In plain words, he was a great (perhaps, the greatest - since
Boris Godunov) loser in Russian+Soviet history, who betrayed
(expectations, at least, of) *his own* people. From my humble German
perspective, I'd even say he was a greater loser to Russians than Hitler
was to Germans. Also note that "nobody" (well, except for notorious
perverts) likes losers. Now Mr Stalin certainly was no loser. And exactly
this makes the difference.
L.G
viki
article that most dangerous thing is that Russian way of thinking,
conception on the World and mentality is just not possible to understand
for their western partners.
For example, I really believe that Vladimir has written all seriously, he
really means it! And he has seen world, travelled, intelligent... How we can
understand ordinary Russian people???
"Vladimir Korostelev" <ko...@baltnet.ru> wrote in message
news:3a55...@news.baltnet.ru...
>
>
> staten
> > Good for you, only don't say that all this you could have when living in
> the
> > Soviet Union, unless you were involved in illegal activities in the
black
> > market or stealing from the state as this business was wide spread at
> all
> > levels of society.
> >
>
> there were a lot of people who earned money at market, in agricultural
> cooperatives
> and the earned money was enough to bue a home, a new car. Many did so.
> Especially
> profitable was apiculture -- people, including my relatives, earned much
> money pretty
> quickly then. It is just one example of legal ways to earn much money.
And why? Because the sovkhoz and state food distribution did not feed the
people.
Lot of money? For what? To by a car??? Only if You have good relations or
could pay a black market prize. Or maybe change to dollars (black market of
course) and get something from "Berozka"-shops, or by jeans or pantyhose
from some tourist (the currency rate maybe 50 time higher than official).
I really miss those times, to spend a luxyry weekend in Leningrad by the
cost of ten pairs of pantyhose!
Yeah, back to USSR!
> However, many
> things like free medic care and free (worldly recognized) university
> education were free
> -- the US for instance, is a prosperous state but you havn't it even now.
>
> > Again when living in the Soviet Union you would never see those places
in
> > your life time unless you proved your loyalty to the regime through KGB
> and
> > Party refine system leaving an ordinary people zero chances to see even
> > Poland or East Germany .
> >
> These are disparate things! I can enjoy travelling but I don't need it so
> much to
> compare with living in my own country that would be enough protected from
> western capitalists.
>
> > Not many of the "formers" managed to survive purges when the whole
> groups
> > of people according to their class and a certain position in the society
> in
> > the pre-revolution Russia were liquidated. Therefore, a former
> capitalist
> > , as your grandparent, in a role of a kolkhoz chief administrator
sounds
> > incredible , especially in 1930s.
> >
>
> There was such trend -- even many former Tzar officers served in Red Army.
Until they were killed on 30´s.
>
> > How would he know what " real things" are look like, if any
comparisons
> > and information from outside of the state was totally sealed and hidden
> from
> > regular people , but the "Pravda" printed nothing but lies?
> >
>
> He was real Russian and wasn't very much interesting then about info
> outside.
Agreed! Real Russian indeed!
> Though as I know he travelled to Cleveland, Ohio somewhere in 189È.
>
> > You certainly could live much better if you were among the Soviet
> > nomenclatura - social parasites living at the expense of ordinary
Prostitution
> becomes
> usual deal for many young Americans. It is enough to give two times a tip
in
> a store
> to a cashier, in Homeland store, and if you are man visits store alone
> you'll get a
> card with a phone number of that guy -- I was discouraged getting such
card
> several
> times, it is terrible, in fact. Do you think that it is a good country? I
> certainly don't know.
> I am certainly not sure that it is a good country. Look at yourself --
about
> 30% of
> Americans are fat, overweighted people. If people work much then they
cannot
> be fat!
If people do not have food, they can not be fat!
Mark Brooks
This is fine if the only criteria for judging a leader is if he is a loser
or not. If we add "criminal" as a criteria, than we could easily say that
Stalin was a criminal, same as Hitler, and Gorby wasn't in the legal sense.
Hitler would have paid for his crimes, but Stalin never really did. What
prosperity Stalin did achieve, he achieved by killing his own people. I do
not think that killing is a pre-requisite for prosperity. Gorby never ruled
by murder and intimidation.
Gorby at least had some vision, but had no idea of his vision's consequences
or any plan on how to deal with same. Yeltsin did not help matters by
putting his personal conflict with Gorby ahead of Russia. Putin has no
vision at all except to steady the boat. BTW...Gorby has also made a nice
living for himself by talking about things of which he apparently knows
little about...managing Russia. So he is not a complete loser.
The real losers were and are the Russian people. The SU broke up but they
had no ready supply of leaders up to the challenge of a free market
democratic society. It doesn't help that Russia doesn't have the moral
building blocks upon which to build a great society. Snitches and mafiosos
are not good material upon which to build.
Russia has come a long way since 1990 but there is a long way to go. They
have made it as far as Mars but when you need to get to Alpha Centauri, you
realize you're going to need to bring along a few more books and CD's
because it's going to take awhile to get where you're going.
"L.Gordeev" <iik...@mail.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.30.010105...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de.
..
AV
> "L.Gordeev" <iik...@mail.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.30.010105...@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de.
>
> I take it your point is that Gorby was (is) a loser and Stalin wasn't. Ok.
> This is fine if the only criteria for judging a leader is if he is a loser
> or not. If we add "criminal" as a criteria, than we could easily say that
> Stalin was a criminal, same as Hitler, and Gorby wasn't in the legal sense.
> Hitler would have paid for his crimes, but Stalin never really did. What
> prosperity Stalin did achieve, he achieved by killing his own people. I do
> not think that killing is a pre-requisite for prosperity. Gorby never ruled
> by murder and intimidation.
>
> Gorby at least had some vision, but had no idea of his vision's consequences
> or any plan on how to deal with same. Yeltsin did not help matters by
> putting his personal conflict with Gorby ahead of Russia.
I can't but approve this correct assessment of Yeltsin's agenda.
> Putin has no
> vision at all except to steady the boat.
And Mark Brooks, no doubt, has more vision than Putin.
> BTW...Gorby has also made a nice
> living for himself by talking about things of which he apparently knows
> little about...managing Russia. So he is not a complete loser.
And also posing for Pizza Hut commercial ...
> The real losers were and are the Russian people. The SU broke up but they
> had no ready supply of leaders up to the challenge of a free market
> democratic society. It doesn't help that Russia doesn't have the moral
> building blocks upon which to build a great society. Snitches and mafiosos
> are not good material upon which to build.
As if there's lack of criminals in outher countries. Then who occupy
2,000,000
beds in US prisons ? Snitches, what do you mean ?
> Russia has come a long way since 1990 but there is a long way to go. They
> have made it as far as Mars but when you need to get to Alpha Centauri, you
May be we need to get to some other place.
Vladimir Korostelev
viki writes
>How we can
> understand ordinary Russian people???
Let's try to find some solution! There is one term, widely accepted
in the US -- political correctness -- it means, that nobody acts so
that it could hurt someone. I.e. if we have decided never discuss
such topics as : communism, Stalin, SWW, Russian totalitarism
and despotism (the terms are yours), Gorbatchov, and some topics
that could arise further then nobody of us would consider each other
badly. Are you ready? -- It means that you never will talk those things
you constantly talked just recently almost each day. I am certainly ready.
At least, I heard one wise thing: One asks another : how a Russian
democrat can co-exists with a Russian communist? answer: Just
on the ground of humanity and culture.
Vladimir
Wayne Brown
Wrong? It's difficult, in my humble opinion, to label things categorically
right or wrong, black or white. Apart from the negative, there are many
positive things to say about the Soviet Union. For example, the USSR
provided a good level of general education for its overall population --
something the United Sates and a number of other developed countries have
not been able to attain for all members of their societies. But the crimes
committed by Soviet authorities against Soviet citizens for so many decades
are so grotesque that it is difficult to see the good in the USSR amidst
such hardship and such suffering.
All the information is now readily available in Russia to anyone who wants
to find out all the details. But you'll recall the policy of glasnost that
began in Soviet media in the late 1970s that resulted, among many other
things, in the rehabilitation of the Old Bolsheviks, one after another.
Candid stories began to be told on TV about men whose names no one had dared
even to pronounce for many years. Bukharin, whom Lenin called the darling of
the party, Rykov and all the others. Aged survivors of their families,
"enemies of the people," returned from exile and told Soviet TV audiences
their gruesome stories. I do not know how any decent communist could have
watched those programs, and all the many other exposés that followed day
after day, week after week and month after month, without feeling a deep
sense of shame for being part of a system that had brought such suffering to
so many innocent Russians and to all the other innocent people among the
many nationalities of the Soviet Union.
Regards,-----WB.
fd
[1] Most (except a few most prominent) "Bolsheviks" were rehabilitated in
early 60s if not late 50s. So most Russians you can communicate with do not
have personal experience "time of repressions".
[2] At schools (at least at universities) those names were pronounced aloud.
Moreover it was admitted that these people got too harsh punishment. (of
cause the fact that in most cases they did not deserve any punishment was
not mentioned)
[3] You choice of names is peculiar to me because I was a friend of one of
grandsons of Rykov in early 70s, and he lived in good (although first floor)
apartments just across Moscow Conservatory whish is hardly an exile (may be
from Kremlin :-)))).
[4] You would be surprised how diverse was society in Moscow in 70s. (My
older brother told me that in 60s it was even more diverse.) We have son of
famous (I would say moist famous) dissident and son of two star KGB general,
that grand son of Rykov, son of minister of aircraft industry, son of the
famous but sort-of-dissident writer, son of ordinary policemen, son of
another famous dissident - the one who wrote first book about Belomor-canal,
and son of simple provincial engineer (me). And we all were friends (well
sort of) drinking beer and chasing girls together with no care who is from
where.
So much for class society with communists on top of it.
Wayne Brown wrote in message <934u6l$4ue$05$1...@news.t-online.com>...
>watched those programs, and all the many other exposÊs that followed day
hollasraka
I could say the same thing and I went to university in the west! There
were sons of poor working class immigrants in the same class as sons of
prominent CEOs.
The fact that you had the offspring of famous people in your class and
partied with them does not in any way dispute the fact that those in
higher party positions lived outlandishly at the expense of everyone
else in the USSR. I read that Brezniev (sp?) had a dozen expensive
western automobiles in his collection: among them Mercedies, Rolls
Royce, and Bentleys. How many dacha's in the region around Moscow?
The communist system was loaded with hypocrites.
HS
--
"That is what the Kozaks have to say to thee, thou basest born of
runts! Unfit art thou to lord it over true Christians...and thou canst
kiss us thou knowest where!"
Koshoviy Otaman Ivan Sirko and all the Ukrainian Zaporozhian Kozak
Brotherhood,
Letter to the Turkish Sultan, 1660
fd
Svetlana he signed international copy-right agreement (not profitable for
USSR at all). This gave him possibility to legally own a lot of money from
publishing his memoirs abroad and add them to his miserable salary. He, of
cause, could use state "dacha(s) like US president can use White house (or
he has to rent it?) but only until he was in power. Nothing compare to
direct grabbing of state property by Yelcin and Co.
Here goes my viewpoint on so called Perestroika. As any revolution it was
tension release. But tension within very top of society. They found that
they rule huge country but own virtually nothing. So they simply took
whatever was possible to take left completely destroyed country behind.
Ordinary people were easily provoked and fooled (it is always easy- read
Hitler), country collapsed everybody besides former USSR citizens became
happy. The end.
hollasraka wrote in message <9356pi$1hh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>> >watched those programs, and all the many other exposės that followed
AV
you mean late 1980s.
> things, in the rehabilitation of the Old Bolsheviks, one after another.
> Candid stories began to be told on TV about men whose names no one had dared
> even to pronounce for many years. Bukharin, whom Lenin called the darling of
> the party, Rykov and all the others. Aged survivors of their families,
> "enemies of the people," returned from exile and told Soviet TV audiences
> their gruesome stories. I do not know how any decent communist could have
> watched those programs, and all the many other exposИs that followed day
> after day, week after week and month after month, without feeling a deep
> sense of shame for being part of a system that had brought such suffering to
> so many innocent Russians and to all the other innocent people among the
> many nationalities of the Soviet Union.
The problem is, decent communists where not part of decision making
nomenclatura while the rest simply had no shame.
>
> Regards,-----WB.
fd
I like your virgin generalization of Russian viewpoint on human relations
i.e. "There are people bad and good and there are different ideologies
(unnecessary but unavoidable evil) which although play big part in political
life of society does not mean mach, if anything, in everyday life of the
people".
It is true (mere or less) for Russia but dead wrong for USA.
It is black/white society in which there is good = God and evil = devil and
nothing else. There cannot be compromise between God and devil or good and
evil. Communism is absolute (devilish) evil. So any affiliation with
communism is affiliation with devil himself. Since Russia (USSR - here it is
the same) was the leader of communist world Russians became evil by
definition. There is no point to reason with evil. The only acceptable thing
may be to convert them to God (good). For this Russians should completely
distinguish themselves from Russia, actively, voluntary and publicly condemn
godless Russian history since the beginning of times and do not forget to
say everyday prayer "Thank you for making me free from my evil past".
So what other topics you are talking about? There may be only one topic for
godless evil people - constant attempt to show them how evil they are and to
convert them to true freedom.
Amen.
Vladimir Korostelev wrote in message <3a55...@news.baltnet.ru>...
mp_del...@my-deja.com
> How we can understand ordinary Russian people???
Go read Dostoevsky. Mikhalkov won't help much.
Good Luck (TM)
MP
Mark Brooks
"AV" <A...@nospam.ru> wrote in message news:3A55C228...@nospam.ru...
Yes. This is true.
> > BTW...Gorby has also made a nice
> > living for himself by talking about things of which he apparently knows
> > little about...managing Russia. So he is not a complete loser.
>
> And also posing for Pizza Hut commercial ...
>
> > The real losers were and are the Russian people. The SU broke up but
they
> > had no ready supply of leaders up to the challenge of a free market
> > democratic society. It doesn't help that Russia doesn't have the moral
> > building blocks upon which to build a great society. Snitches and
mafiosos
> > are not good material upon which to build.
>
> As if there's lack of criminals in outher countries. Then who occupy
> 2,000,000
> beds in US prisons ? Snitches, what do you mean ?
>
Once again you have failed to grasp the obvious. Criminals in the US are
kept in jail (pretty nice living conditions too compared to Russian
prisons). Russia prefers to let its criminals wander freely amongst the 1 or
2 remaining law abiding citizens in Russia.
Vladimir Korostelev
<mp_del...@my-deja.com> пишет в сообщении:935dn2$85e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> <viik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How we can understand ordinary Russian people???
>
> Go read Dostoevsky. Mikhalkov won't help much.
>
> Good Luck (TM)
>
> MP
>
I dislike Dostoevsky, he considered and 'solved'
the social problems on a conflict ground.
Vladimir Korostelev
fd wrote:
.......
.......
....... Uh wugga wuh. Uh wugga wuh.
Uh wugga wugga wugga.
Uh wugga wuh uh wugga wuh
Uh wugga wugga wugga
---------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if you like God why you still occupy the lands
of the Native Americans tribes? They need sovereignty,
why your God keeps silence about it? Because he doesn't
responsible for you. That you mentioned, isn't related to God
or Good -- we aren't talking about God -- we are talking about
our different understandings of God and Good. Don't mix these
up! You mix these just because it is profitable for America.
You see that Russia can put in force certain isolation, 'iron curtains'
from the West and I believe that it is necessary. Then we will think
more about the interests of the state than about that kind of democracy
that just deprive people, for instance such as in the US.
Thanks for all comments and suggestions, I'll be
not write here anymore 'cause it brings nothing.
L.Gordeev
On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Vladimir Korostelev wrote:
> You see that Russia can put in force certain isolation, 'iron curtains'
> from the West and I believe that it is necessary. Then we will think
> more about the interests of the state than about that kind of democracy
> that just deprive people, for instance such as in the US.
Right. Generally speaking, one can learn more from his own mistakes than
just trying to copy other's hmm success stories... well, if one is big
enough. That odd SU+Russia US-fixation was/is pretty destructive after
all.
> Thanks for all comments and suggestions, I'll be
> not write here anymore 'cause it brings nothing.
Well, everything brings something ...
L.G
viki
> >How we can
> > understand ordinary Russian people???
>
> Let's try to find some solution! There is one term, widely accepted
> in the US -- political correctness -- it means, that nobody acts so
> that it could hurt someone. I.e. if we have decided never discuss
> such topics as : communism, Stalin, SWW, Russian totalitarism
> and despotism (the terms are yours), Gorbatchov, and some topics
> that could arise further then nobody of us would consider each other
> badly. Are you ready
Is this Your humour?
viki
I like Dostoevsky, but it is almost 30 years ago when I read almost all that
I got from him. That time I was not trying to understand Russia or Russian
people, but in general life and people. It was the period of building ones
"outlook on life". Maybe now it would be time to read those books again.
Dostoevsky is great!
>
Wayne Brown
news:9345p8$l1c$1...@news.kolumbus.fi...
> Ilmari Susiluoto (researcher in Foreign ministry of Finland) said in some
> article that most dangerous thing is that Russian way of thinking,
> conception on the World and mentality is just not possible to understand
> for their western partners.
>
> For example, I really believe that Vladimir has written all seriously, he
> really means it! And he has seen world, travelled, intelligent... How we
can
> understand ordinary Russian people???
People in every country in the world have their own way of thinking, their
own approaches, their own cultures. There are many millions of Russians and
all of them undoubtedly did not experience the Soviet Union the way the USSR
was perceived in foreign countries. Only trying to understand the attitudes
of Russians -- all kinds of Russians -- can give us some insight into the
culture of a great nation.
Regards,-----WB.
Wayne Brown
> looking leader having attractive intelligence. He surely looked
> then much better than old relicts ruled right before him.
> However, the things you mentioned -- glasnost',perestroyka ,
> pluralism, democracy are just words. It is important to have a
> responsible ruler who knows the price of the words s/he uses;
> Gorbatchov, otherwise told for hours around the unclearly defined
> terms. Why? I suppose that the only thing that had been drove him
> was his enormous ego. It is extremely bad when someone in power
> has enormous ego.
passage)
Every movement starts with words. Lenin started in exile with just words.
Words were so important in the Soviet Union that an entire appartus was
engaged in trying to control words and imprudent words sent people to
prison -- or worse. Soviet people knew that well. They knew exactly what
words to use in every situation.
Unclearly defined terms? Glasnost, perestroika, pluralism and democracy were
not new words in the Soviet vocabulary when Gorbachev first started using
them; therefore, Soviet people attracted no great significance to them in
the beginning. Did you expect Gorbachev to say, "Glasnost means exactly this
and no more?" No, he presented an outline, a model for Soviet society itself
to fill with meaning. But Soviet people said after a while, "Now we've heard
a lot of wonderful talk but we want to know when our everyday lives are
going to improve."
I don't know which revelation in Soviet media as a result of glasnost
shocked me the most. I was certainly shocked by the seemingly unending
stories with the terrible details of the incredible suppression of
communists. Some of those communists were doubtless honest people who truly
believed in their political agenda. But a revelation that might appear as
trivial probably shocked the most: the disclosure that the story of Pavlik
Morozov was a lie from start to finish. A story that generations of Soviet
children had been raised on. A state that could not even tell the truth
about Pavlik Morozov, a state founded on lies.
Regards,-----WB.
Mark Brooks
understnding the atrophied Russian psyche. They are still writing them.
Evidently no one has figured out the "Russian soul" as yet. They keep
trying. Perhaps it would be better to write books about understanding women
or the creation of the universe instead? I'll just sit here enjoying "Green
Eggs and Ham".
"Wayne Brown" <Wayne...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:936r7r$9bq$04$2...@news.t-online.com...
L.Gordeev
On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Mark Brooks wrote to WB:
> Heh-heh-heh. All sorts of learned "Westerners" have written volumes about
> understnding the atrophied Russian psyche. They are still writing them.
> Evidently no one has figured out the "Russian soul" as yet. They keep
> trying. Perhaps it would be better to write books about understanding women
> [snip]
Frankly, my humble experience with both species learned me that in fact it
is male stupidity that prevents them to better understand women ...
notably, women have little problems in understanding men. Same for Russian
vs "Westerners". Russians understand brainwashed western morons pretty
well. And I honestly wonder why it does not work the other way. My humble
guess: Russians are more flexible. They don't project that easily their
own hmm special mental visions, when trying to undersand others, -
"Westerners" always do.
L.G
staten
|
| staten
| > Good for you, only don't say that all this you could have when living in
| the
| > Soviet Union, unless you were involved in illegal activities in the
black
| > market or stealing from the state as this business was wide spread at
| all
| > levels of society.
| >
|
| there were a lot of people who earned money at market, in agricultural
| cooperatives
Yeah right, at “black market” and “ cooperatives” of apparatchiks and
underworld when by the time of perestroyka , the line between the crooks
and the Soviet officials was difficult to distinguish
| and the earned money was enough to bue a home, a new car. Many did so.
What are you talking about? What home, what car, if people had to be
registered many months in advance to buy a regular refrigerator or color TV,
but the average salary was 150 rubles a month ( around $30). Forty-three
million (or 17 percent) of the population lived on less than the "official"
poverty level, set at 75 rubles per person per month ($5). Another 100
million (or 40 percent) lived perilously close to poverty on less than 100
rubles ($6.50) a month. One-third of the 58 million pensioners in the city
and eight of ten in the village received less than 60 rubles a month.
So save this crap about “homes” and “cars” for deranged commies who would
believe any bullshit if it relates to their Soviet past.
| Especially
| profitable was apiculture -- people, including my relatives, earned much
| money pretty
| quickly then. It is just one example of legal ways to earn much money.
|
I have never heard that one could make much money on beekeeping . Even if so
, who would they sell it? People badly craved for meats that they didn’t
see enough for decades but you about honey…. It must be one of the regular
lies stalinists like to spread about non-existing Soviet prosperity.
However, many
| things like free medic care and free (worldly recognized) university
| education were free
| -- the US for instance, is a prosperous state but you havn't it even now.
There was nothing for free there . Generations of the Soviet people paid in
advance for this socialist chimera by their lives, health and miserable
wages living in terrible conditions and poverty so that stalinists like you
could expand about “free” medic care.
| > Again when living in the Soviet Union you would never see those places
in
| > your life time unless you proved your loyalty to the regime through KGB
| and
| > Party refine system leaving an ordinary people zero chances to see even
| > Poland or East Germany .
| >
| These are disparate things! I can enjoy travelling but I don't need it so
| much to
| compare with living in my own country that would be enough protected from
| western capitalists.
Again, if you were among privileged state grovellers you could afford
travelling abroad, majority of ordinary people could not realize this then ,
because it was forbidden , and they cannot realize it now because they
still live in poverty and just cannot to afford it.
| > Not many of the “formers” managed to survive purges when the whole
| groups
| > of people according to their class and a certain position in the society
| in
| > the pre-revolution Russia were liquidated. Therefore, a former
| capitalist
| > , as your grandparent, in a role of a kolkhoz chief administrator sounds
| > incredible , especially in 1930s.
| >
|
| There was such trend -- even many former Tzar officers served in Red Army.
Tell now, how many of them left alive after 1937?
| > How would he know what “ real things” are look like, if any comparisons
| > and information from outside of the state was totally sealed and hidden
| from
| > regular people , but the “Pravda” printed nothing but lies?
| >
|
| He was real Russian and wasn't very much interesting then about info
| outside.
| Though as I know he travelled to Cleveland, Ohio somewhere in 189È.
So, to you, “real Russians” don’t care about what is going outside? Perhaps
that generation of meek and timid stukachs really didn’t care much about
life outside of their state-prison scaring of gulags and basements of the
NKVD for their inordinate “curiosity”. But you never can say the same about
next generations who would show incredible skills and talents in
inventing ways how to escape their prison to the West.
| > You certainly could live much better if you were among the Soviet
| > nomenclatura – social parasites living at the expense of ordinary
people.
| >
| Sir, one of my values is labour. Do you think that it is easy to build
large
| stone
| house in the times of recent 'reforms' having just small amount of money?
| You
| even don't understand what it means if you suppose that I could be a
| bureaucrat.
I don’t know about your activity now , but at the Soviet times your honest
and selfless labor was awarded by a miserable salary allowing you just
barely to make both ends meet.
| > What is the reason? And why you switched to Jews? Are Jews dominate Duma
| or
| > Russian society ?
| No. There are politicians in my country who promote their understanding of
| democracy.
| They aren't poor people and their policy supports certain capitalists; btw
| their ideas have
| no connection with people's needs. Why they are Jewes? I don't.
First of all, learn how to take responsibility for your own actions and
deeds. Pointing at Jews, Latvians, West , Chechens etc. is a typical Russian
tactics for ages . Till you realize that origin of your mess and chaos is
in Russia and created by Russians , your misery and “people’s needs” , as
you say, will last till doomsdays.
| > So do is Albert Makashov, you also should like him.
|
| No, you are wrong, I don't perceive him well.
| Nothing from his ideas is valuable for me.
Well, then Zyuganov , no big difference.
| > From the point of view of stalinists like you he certainly does, to the
| rest
| > of decent people on this planet your Stalin is an embodiment of evil
| guilty
| > of genocide, killing millions of innocent people , creating
unprecedented
| > rein of terror and the only what he deserves is a spitting on his grave.
|
| I just need to say that you understand almost nothing
| about the current events in Russia. Can you explain
| why many Russians like Soviet Union though from your
| point it was a prison ? At least it shows that they don't
| consider it as a prison.
The older stalinists, less educated and most of those in the countryside
and in many depressed industrial regions voted for Zyuganov and return of
the Soviet Union , while Yeltsin enjoyed in his last elections great leads
among those under forty, as well as among professionals and white-collar
workers. He carried 86 of Russia’s 100 largest cities. Even in the heavily
Communist agricultural "red belt" south and southwest of Moscow, the
president won every regional capital by at least 15 percent. In Moscow and
St. Petersburg , Yeltsin led Zyuganov 77 percent to 18 percent and 74
percent to 21 percent, respectively. So if you and the rest of the dying
Soviet dinosaurs badly want the Soviet days back , that doesn’t mean all
agree with you.
| > In other words a prison or the Soviet Union is a perfect example of
| > “restriction over behavior” where restrictions reached a such degree
that
| > crated spiritual vacuum that led to inevitable degradation what we
| witnessed
| > during the last seven decades of the last century.
|
| Soviet Union crushed Nazi who took Europe just in few years in SWW and
made
| the first step into cosmos.
Replacing Nazi’s terror by misery of communist rule and making the greatest
disproportion in economy for the sake of great political shows proves
nothing. Despite some progress in military area, living standards of the
Soviet people was astonishingly low, lower than in the Third World
countries. It’s not wonder why this aspect plus total spiritual vacuum and
lack of elementary freedom won fame of a huge prison of people for the USSR.
| > | From my point, the Americans have enormous amount of restrictions,
much
| > more
| > | that the
| > | russians have, however, hardly it is a totalitar state -- it is rather
a
| > | police state with totalitar
| > | sense regarding the other world. They behave like Roman Imperia in the
| > | Ancient times!
| >
| > This is an ordinary stalinist garbage having no logic, no sense and
| > therefore deserving no comments. However for a scientist travelling
around
| > the world and having scientific forums in the western prestigious
| > institutions a such view on present day America looks extremely
uneducated
| > and inane.
| > So, your point could be easily understood and highly appreciated in a
| > company of drunk NKVD officers not scientists what in turn cast doubts
on
| > your belonging to the world of science.
|
| I'm sorry but what I said is a quote of Americans.
Not surprising if you get entangled with American outcasts like commies ,
radical leftists or other admirers of the Soviet red plague and haters of
America.
I was terribly stunning
| when realised that there is enormous latent hateness among different
ethnic
| groups living in the US - Whites, Blacks, Hispanic, Native Americans. They
| really dislike each other though all they are Americans.
It’s not much different than at any other place in the world. But in the
last past decades relations between races becoming more smooth .
At least, it is much better that to have homogeneous population who would
blow each other in offices, kill in bandit’s skirmishes, assassinate
journalists or government officials at the front doors of their homes as
in Russia.
|50% of American
| kids
| are raising without fathers -- too large for prosperous state.
Count how many orphans and street kids living in graveyards or dumpsters .
No matter from which side you start, the number will be not in Russia’s
favor.
Prostitution
| becomes
| usual deal for many young Americans. It is enough to give two times a tip
in
| a store
| to a cashier, in Homeland store, and if you are man visits store alone
| you'll get a
| card with a phone number of that guy -- I was discouraged getting such
card
| several
| times, it is terrible, in fact.
Perhaps you are too busy with spreading your soviet propaganda. But if you
would count prostitutes on Tverskaya street alone in Moscow, or count young
Russian conscripts sold as male prostitutes by their officers to gays in
st. Petersburg you would quickly realize that Homland store is just an
innocent kindergarten in comparison with range of activity of their Russian
colleagues.
| Do you think that it is a good country?
Yes , I do. It’s far from a perfect but still great.
| certainly don't know.
And you never will.
| I am certainly not sure that it is a good country. Look at yourself --
about
| 30% of
| Americans are fat, overweighted people. If people work much then they
cannot
| be fat!
That’s a stupid comparison. You can work as a horse but still be fat. A
lot of things depend of your constitution, metabolism, genes etc.
| Do you think that your biotech food is a human food? It is rather a
garbage.
No less idiotic comparison as it strictly depends on your preferences. Not
all people in the world consider your borsht or caviar a top of the
imagination as for some of them it is just a beet wash or fish eggs. In
addition in America you can find any European , Asian or Middle East cuisine
to satisfy all tastes .
| I nowhere
| saw such amount fat people as I saw in the US. If you're fat and don't
work
| hard then
| why you're so prosperous?
Because we are don’t drink vodka all day long, don’t steal whatever can be
stolen and sold from our country, don’t blame our neighbors for our failures
and don’t dream about world power status while our economy is in shambles as
in Russia.
| My understanding of America is that its capital is unevenly distributed
and
| there are " fat
| cats " -- capitalists around White House who influence the international
| policy of the US in
| order to earn some money else
That’s cheap and stupid communist stereotyping that is not changing since
your burring syphilitic Lenin first blurted it out . .
| they pressed on Clinton to initiate bombing
| in Kosovo,
| it gave them new orders to produce more weapon. Whole world besides
| Americans knows
| it. Though many Americans also do. I was listening and comparing the local
| radio (its name
| sounds as kei-ti okay) station in Oklahoma, NPR from Chicago and federal
| media in the time
| of bombing and remarked enormous difference in their content! Your federal
| media are censored
| and they lied. I also stayed just few meters from Bob Dole, your
politician,
| at North Oval in
| OU Campus during his speech -- he arrogantly lied about Yugoslavia -- and
| some students let
| him know what they think about him -- he got it).
| In capitalistic world money handle the world, does Clinton earn much
money?
| Did Eltsine
| earn much money?? Then who handle the world??? Americans got money, Serbs
| got
| bombing from western democrats and Russia keeps fullish silence -- I
| disagree with it.
If you are disagree, stop your traditional envy and counting money of the
others , stop blaming the world that it ignores you , learn to handle your
own failures, accept your history and carry a load you are able to lift and
to hold, but if you don’t , you still will be silent for a very long time
since losers don’t blow fanfares and their place is at the tail-end.
| I am a physicist and work in the field of Nuclear Magnetic and Quadrupole
| Resonances.
| One of my last adventures is a device for detection of drugs and
explosives
| in airports.
| Patent: V.S.Grechishkin, V.V.Korostelev, NQR device for simultaneous
| detection of
| several kinds of explosives and drugs in luggage, RU 2128832 C1, 1999.
|
| Are you satisfied Mr spy ? staten (?!) I don't care who you're.
|
A physicist-stalinist ? It’s a very unusual symbiosis as prominent Soviet
physicists opposed Stalin’s tyranny and its scientific obscurantism
forced by Stalin through such “scientists” as Lisenko even at the time when
Stalin was alive. Therefore , your open praising of the communist-slavery
system and it’s the most ruthless despot of all times is rather weird for
a man engaged in science .
As for name, I also could put my alias under Korostelev name , so what, how
you check it? .
staten
|
| staten
| > Good for you, only don't say that all this you could have when living in
| the
| > Soviet Union, unless you were involved in illegal activities in the
black
| > market or stealing from the state as this business was wide spread at
| all
| > levels of society.
| >
|
| there were a lot of people who earned money at market, in agricultural
| cooperatives
Yeah right, at “black market” and “ cooperatives” of apparatchiks and
underworld when by the time of perestroyka , the line between the crooks
and the Soviet officials was difficult to distinguish
| and the earned money was enough to bue a home, a new car. Many did so.
What are you talking about? What home, what car, if people had to be
registered many months in advance to buy a regular refrigerator or color TV,
but the average salary was 150 rubles a month ( around $30). Forty-three
million (or 17 percent) of the population lived on less than the "official"
poverty level, set at 75 rubles per person per month ($5). Another 100
million (or 40 percent) lived perilously close to poverty on less than 100
rubles ($6.50) a month. One-third of the 58 million pensioners in the city
and eight of ten in the village received less than 60 rubles a month.
So save this crap about “homes” and “cars” for deranged commies who would
believe any bullshit if it relates to their Soviet past.
| Especially
| profitable was apiculture -- people, including my relatives, earned much
| money pretty
| quickly then. It is just one example of legal ways to earn much money.
|
I have never heard that one could make much money on beekeeping . Even if so
, who would they sell it? People badly craved for meats that they didn’t
see enough for decades but you about honey…. It must be one of the regular
lies stalinists like to spread about non-existing Soviet prosperity.
However, many
| things like free medic care and free (worldly recognized) university
| education were free
| -- the US for instance, is a prosperous state but you havn't it even now.
There was nothing for free there . Generations of the Soviet people paid in
advance for this socialist chimera by their lives, health and miserable
wages living in terrible conditions and poverty so that stalinists like you
could expand about “free” medic care.
| > Again when living in the Soviet Union you would never see those places
in
| > your life time unless you proved your loyalty to the regime through KGB
| and
| > Party refine system leaving an ordinary people zero chances to see even
| > Poland or East Germany .
| >
| These are disparate things! I can enjoy travelling but I don't need it so
| much to
| compare with living in my own country that would be enough protected from
| western capitalists.
Again, if you were among privileged state grovellers you could afford
travelling abroad, majority of ordinary people could not realize this then ,
because it was forbidden , and they cannot realize it now because they
still live in poverty and just cannot to afford it.
| > Not many of the “formers” managed to survive purges when the whole
| groups
| > of people according to their class and a certain position in the society
| in
| > the pre-revolution Russia were liquidated. Therefore, a former
| capitalist
| > , as your grandparent, in a role of a kolkhoz chief administrator sounds
| > incredible , especially in 1930s.
| >
|
| There was such trend -- even many former Tzar officers served in Red Army.
Tell now, how many of them left alive after 1937?
| > How would he know what “ real things” are look like, if any comparisons
| > and information from outside of the state was totally sealed and hidden
| from
| > regular people , but the “Pravda” printed nothing but lies?
| >
|
| He was real Russian and wasn't very much interesting then about info
| outside.
| Though as I know he travelled to Cleveland, Ohio somewhere in 189È.
So, to you, “real Russians” don’t care about what is going outside? Perhaps
that generation of meek and timid stukachs really didn’t care much about
life outside of their state-prison scaring of gulags and basements of the
NKVD for their inordinate “curiosity”. But you never can say the same about
next generations who would show incredible skills and talents in
inventing ways how to escape their prison to the West.
| > You certainly could live much better if you were among the Soviet
| > nomenclatura – social parasites living at the expense of ordinary
people.
| >
| Sir, one of my values is labour. Do you think that it is easy to build
large
| stone
| house in the times of recent 'reforms' having just small amount of money?
| You
| even don't understand what it means if you suppose that I could be a
| bureaucrat.
I don’t know about your activity now , but at the Soviet times your honest
and selfless labor was awarded by a miserable salary allowing you just
barely to make both ends meet.
| > What is the reason? And why you switched to Jews? Are Jews dominate Duma
| or
| > Russian society ?
| No. There are politicians in my country who promote their understanding of
| democracy.
| They aren't poor people and their policy supports certain capitalists; btw
| their ideas have
| no connection with people's needs. Why they are Jewes? I don't.
First of all, learn how to take responsibility for your own actions and
deeds. Pointing at Jews, Latvians, West , Chechens etc. is a typical Russian
tactics for ages . Till you realize that origin of your mess and chaos is
in Russia and created by Russians , your misery and “people’s needs” , as
you say, will last till doomsdays.
| > So do is Albert Makashov, you also should like him.
|
| No, you are wrong, I don't perceive him well.
| Nothing from his ideas is valuable for me.
Well, then Zyuganov , no big difference.
| > From the point of view of stalinists like you he certainly does, to the
| rest
| > of decent people on this planet your Stalin is an embodiment of evil
| guilty
| > of genocide, killing millions of innocent people , creating
unprecedented
| > rein of terror and the only what he deserves is a spitting on his grave.
|
| I just need to say that you understand almost nothing
| about the current events in Russia. Can you explain
| why many Russians like Soviet Union though from your
| point it was a prison ? At least it shows that they don't
| consider it as a prison.
The older stalinists, less educated and most of those in the countryside
and in many depressed industrial regions voted for Zyuganov and return of
the Soviet Union , while Yeltsin enjoyed in his last elections great leads
among those under forty, as well as among professionals and white-collar
workers. He carried 86 of Russia’s 100 largest cities. Even in the heavily
Communist agricultural "red belt" south and southwest of Moscow, the
president won every regional capital by at least 15 percent. In Moscow and
St. Petersburg , Yeltsin led Zyuganov 77 percent to 18 percent and 74
percent to 21 percent, respectively. So if you and the rest of the dying
Soviet dinosaurs badly want the Soviet days back , that doesn’t mean all
agree with you.
| > In other words a prison or the Soviet Union is a perfect example of
| > “restriction over behavior” where restrictions reached a such degree
that
| > crated spiritual vacuum that led to inevitable degradation what we
| witnessed
| > during the last seven decades of the last century.
|
| Soviet Union crushed Nazi who took Europe just in few years in SWW and
made
| the first step into cosmos.
Replacing Nazi’s terror by misery of communist rule and making the greatest
disproportion in economy for the sake of great political shows proves
nothing. Despite some progress in military area, living standards of the
Soviet people was astonishingly low, lower than in the Third World
countries. It’s not wonder why this aspect plus total spiritual vacuum and
lack of elementary freedom won fame of a huge prison of people for the USSR.
| > | From my point, the Americans have enormous amount of restrictions,
much
| > more
| > | that the
| > | russians have, however, hardly it is a totalitar state -- it is rather
a
| > | police state with totalitar
| > | sense regarding the other world. They behave like Roman Imperia in the
| > | Ancient times!
| >
| > This is an ordinary stalinist garbage having no logic, no sense and
| > therefore deserving no comments. However for a scientist travelling
around
| > the world and having scientific forums in the western prestigious
| > institutions a such view on present day America looks extremely
uneducated
| > and inane.
| > So, your point could be easily understood and highly appreciated in a
| > company of drunk NKVD officers not scientists what in turn cast doubts
on
| > your belonging to the world of science.
|
| I'm sorry but what I said is a quote of Americans.
Not surprising if you get entangled with American outcasts like commies ,
radical leftists or other admirers of the Soviet red plague and haters of
America.
I was terribly stunning
| when realised that there is enormous latent hateness among different
ethnic
| groups living in the US - Whites, Blacks, Hispanic, Native Americans. They
| really dislike each other though all they are Americans.
It’s not much different than at any other place in the world. But in the
last past decades relations between races becoming more smooth .
At least, it is much better that to have homogeneous population who would
blow each other in offices, kill in bandit’s skirmishes, assassinate
journalists or government officials at the front doors of their homes as
in Russia.
|50% of American
| kids
| are raising without fathers -- too large for prosperous state.
Count how many orphans and street kids living in graveyards or dumpsters .
No matter from which side you start, the number will be not in Russia’s
favor.
Prostitution
| becomes
| usual deal for many young Americans. It is enough to give two times a tip
in
| a store
| to a cashier, in Homeland store, and if you are man visits store alone
| you'll get a
| card with a phone number of that guy -- I was discouraged getting such
card
| several
| times, it is terrible, in fact.
Perhaps you are too busy with spreading your soviet propaganda. But if you
would count prostitutes on Tverskaya street alone in Moscow, or count young
Russian conscripts sold as male prostitutes by their officers to gays in
st. Petersburg you would quickly realize that Homland store is just an
innocent kindergarten in comparison with range of activity of their Russian
colleagues.
| Do you think that it is a good country?
Yes , I do. It’s far from a perfect but still great.
| certainly don't know.
And you never will.
| I am certainly not sure that it is a good country. Look at yourself --
about
| 30% of
| Americans are fat, overweighted people. If people work much then they
cannot
| be fat!
That’s a stupid comparison. You can work as a horse but still be fat. A
lot of things depend of your constitution, metabolism, genes etc.
| Do you think that your biotech food is a human food? It is rather a
garbage.
No less idiotic comparison as it strictly depends on your preferences. Not
all people in the world consider your borsht or caviar a top of the
imagination as for some of them it is just a beet wash or fish eggs. In
addition in America you can find any European , Asian or Middle East cuisine
to satisfy all tastes .
| I nowhere
| saw such amount fat people as I saw in the US. If you're fat and don't
work
| hard then
| why you're so prosperous?
Because we are don’t drink vodka all day long, don’t steal whatever can be
stolen and sold from our country, don’t blame our neighbors for our failures
and don’t dream about world power status while our economy is in shambles as
in Russia.
| My understanding of America is that its capital is unevenly distributed
and
| there are " fat
| cats " -- capitalists around White House who influence the international
| policy of the US in
| order to earn some money else
That’s cheap and stupid communist stereotyping that is not changing since
your burring syphilitic Lenin first blurted it out . .
| they pressed on Clinton to initiate bombing
| in Kosovo,
| it gave them new orders to produce more weapon. Whole world besides
| Americans knows
| it. Though many Americans also do. I was listening and comparing the local
| radio (its name
| sounds as kei-ti okay) station in Oklahoma, NPR from Chicago and federal
| media in the time
| of bombing and remarked enormous difference in their content! Your federal
| media are censored
| and they lied. I also stayed just few meters from Bob Dole, your
politician,
| at North Oval in
| OU Campus during his speech -- he arrogantly lied about Yugoslavia -- and
| some students let
| him know what they think about him -- he got it).
| In capitalistic world money handle the world, does Clinton earn much
money?
| Did Eltsine
| earn much money?? Then who handle the world??? Americans got money, Serbs
| got
| bombing from western democrats and Russia keeps fullish silence -- I
| disagree with it.
If you are disagree, stop your traditional envy and counting money of the
others , stop blaming the world that it ignores you , learn to handle your
own failures, accept your history and carry a load you are able to lift and
to hold, but if you don’t , you still will be silent for a very long time
since losers don’t blow fanfares and their place is at the tail-end.
| I am a physicist and work in the field of Nuclear Magnetic and Quadrupole
| Resonances.
| One of my last adventures is a device for detection of drugs and
explosives
| in airports.
| Patent: V.S.Grechishkin, V.V.Korostelev, NQR device for simultaneous
| detection of
| several kinds of explosives and drugs in luggage, RU 2128832 C1, 1999.
|
| Are you satisfied Mr spy ? staten (?!) I don't care who you're.
|
A physicist-stalinist ? It’s a very unusual symbiosis as prominent Soviet
physicists opposed Stalin’s tyranny and its scientific obscurantism
forced by Stalin through such “scientists” as Lisenko even at the time when
Stalin was alive. Therefore , your open praising of the communist-slavery
system and it’s the most ruthless despot of all times is rather weird for
a man engaged in science .
As for name, I also could put my alias under Korostelev name , so what, how
you check it? The only hope is that the second person Mr. Grechishkin is a
real scientist having nothing to do with stalinism and not praising the
shameful Soviet regime.
staten
| > Good for you, only don't say that all this you could have when living in
| the
| > Soviet Union, unless you were involved in illegal activities in the
black
| > market or stealing from the state as this business was wide spread at
| all
| > levels of society.
| >
|
| there were a lot of people who earned money at market, in agricultural
| cooperatives
Yeah right, at “black market” and “ cooperatives” of apparatchiks and
underworld when by the time of perestroyka , the line between the crooks
and the Soviet officials was difficult to distinguish
| and the earned money was enough to bue a home, a new car. Many did so.
What are you talking about? What home, what car, if people had to be
registered many months in advance to buy a regular refrigerator or color TV,
but the average salary was 150 rubles a month ( around $30). Forty-three
million (or 17 percent) of the population lived on less than the "official"
poverty level, set at 75 rubles per person per month ($5). Another 100
million (or 40 percent) lived perilously close to poverty on less than 100
rubles ($6.50) a month. One-third of the 58 million pensioners in the city
and eight of ten in the village received less than 60 rubles a month.
So save this crap about “homes” and “cars” for deranged commies who would
believe any bullshit if it relates to their Soviet past.
| Especially
| profitable was apiculture -- people, including my relatives, earned much
| money pretty
| quickly then. It is just one example of legal ways to earn much money.
|
I have never heard that one could make much money on beekeeping . Even if so
, who would they sell it? People badly craved for meats that they didn’t
see enough for decades but you about honey…. It must be one of the regular
lies stalinists like to spread about non-existing Soviet prosperity.
However, many
| things like free medic care and free (worldly recognized) university
| education were free
| -- the US for instance, is a prosperous state but you havn't it even now.
There was nothing for free there . Generations of the Soviet people paid in
advance for this socialist chimera by their lives, health and miserable
wages living in terrible conditions and poverty so that stalinists like you
could expand about “free” medic care.
| > Again when living in the Soviet Union you would never see those places
in
| > your life time unless you proved your loyalty to the regime through KGB
| and
| > Party refine system leaving an ordinary people zero chances to see even
| > Poland or East Germany .
| >
| These are disparate things! I can enjoy travelling but I don't need it so
| much to
| compare with living in my own country that would be enough protected from
| western capitalists.
Again, if you were among privileged state grovellers you could afford
travelling abroad, majority of ordinary people could not realize this then ,
because it was forbidden , and they cannot realize it now because they
still live in poverty and just cannot to afford it.
| > Not many of the “formers” managed to survive purges when the whole
| groups
| > of people according to their class and a certain position in the society
| in
| > the pre-revolution Russia were liquidated. Therefore, a former
| capitalist
| > , as your grandparent, in a role of a kolkhoz chief administrator sounds
| > incredible , especially in 1930s.
| >
|
| There was such trend -- even many former Tzar officers served in Red Army.
Tell now, how many of them left alive after 1937?
| > How would he know what “ real things” are look like, if any comparisons
| > and information from outside of the state was totally sealed and hidden
| from
| > regular people , but the “Pravda” printed nothing but lies?
| >
|
| He was real Russian and wasn't very much interesting then about info
| outside.
| Though as I know he travelled to Cleveland, Ohio somewhere in 189È.
So, to you, “real Russians” don’t care about what is going outside? Perhaps
that generation of meek and timid stukachs really didn’t care much about
life outside of their state-prison scaring of gulags and basements of the
NKVD for their inordinate “curiosity”. But you never can say the same about
next generations who would show incredible skills and talents in
inventing ways how to escape their prison to the West.
| > You certainly could live much better if you were among the Soviet
| > nomenclatura – social parasites living at the expense of ordinary
people.
| >
| Sir, one of my values is labour. Do you think that it is easy to build
large
| stone
| house in the times of recent 'reforms' having just small amount of money?
| You
| even don't understand what it means if you suppose that I could be a
| bureaucrat.
I don’t know about your activity now , but at the Soviet times your honest
and selfless labor was awarded by a miserable salary allowing you just
barely to make both ends meet.
| > What is the reason? And why you switched to Jews? Are Jews dominate Duma
| or
| > Russian society ?
| No. There are politicians in my country who promote their understanding of
| democracy.
| They aren't poor people and their policy supports certain capitalists; btw
| their ideas have
| no connection with people's needs. Why they are Jewes? I don't.
First of all, learn how to take responsibility for your own actions and
deeds. Pointing at Jews, Latvians, West , Chechens etc. is a typical Russian
tactics for ages . Till you realize that origin of your mess and chaos is
in Russia and created by Russians , your misery and “people’s needs” , as
you say, will last till doomsdays.
| > So do is Albert Makashov, you also should like him.
|
| No, you are wrong, I don't perceive him well.
| Nothing from his ideas is valuable for me.
Well, then Zyuganov , no big difference.
| > From the point of view of stalinists like you he certainly does, to the
| rest
| > of decent people on this planet your Stalin is an embodiment of evil
| guilty
| > of genocide, killing millions of innocent people , creating
unprecedented
| > rein of terror and the only what he deserves is a spitting on his grave.
|
| I just need to say that you understand almost nothing
| about the current events in Russia. Can you explain
| why many Russians like Soviet Union though from your
| point it was a prison ? At least it shows that they don't
| consider it as a prison.
The older stalinists, less educated and most of those in the countryside
and in many depressed industrial regions voted for Zyuganov and return of
the Soviet Union , while Yeltsin enjoyed in his last elections great leads
among those under forty, as well as among professionals and white-collar
workers. He carried 86 of Russia’s 100 largest cities. Even in the heavily
Communist agricultural "red belt" south and southwest of Moscow, the
president won every regional capital by at least 15 percent. In Moscow and
St. Petersburg , Yeltsin led Zyuganov 77 percent to 18 percent and 74
percent to 21 percent, respectively. So if you and the rest of the dying
Soviet dinosaurs badly want the Soviet days back , that doesn’t mean all
agree with you.
| > In other words a prison or the Soviet Union is a perfect example of
| > “restriction over behavior” where restrictions reached a such degree
that
| > crated spiritual vacuum that led to inevitable degradation what we
| witnessed
| > during the last seven decades of the last century.
|
| Soviet Union crushed Nazi who took Europe just in few years in SWW and
made
| the first step into cosmos.
Replacing Nazi’s terror by misery of communist rule and making the greatest
disproportion in economy for the sake of great political shows proves
nothing. Despite some progress in military area, living standards of the
Soviet people was astonishingly low, lower than in the Third World
countries. It’s not wonder why this aspect plus total spiritual vacuum and
lack of elementary freedom won fame of a huge prison of people for the USSR.
| > | From my point, the Americans have enormous amount of restrictions,
much
| > more
| > | that the
| > | russians have, however, hardly it is a totalitar state -- it is rather
a
| > | police state with totalitar
| > | sense regarding the other world. They behave like Roman Imperia in the
| > | Ancient times!
| >
| > This is an ordinary stalinist garbage having no logic, no sense and
| > therefore deserving no comments. However for a scientist travelling
around
| > the world and having scientific forums in the western prestigious
| > institutions a such view on present day America looks extremely
uneducated
| > and inane.
| > So, your point could be easily understood and highly appreciated in a
| > company of drunk NKVD officers not scientists what in turn cast doubts
on
| > your belonging to the world of science.
|
| I'm sorry but what I said is a quote of Americans.
Not surprising if you get entangled with American outcasts like commies ,
radical leftists or other admirers of the Soviet red plague and haters of
America.
I was terribly stunning
| when realised that there is enormous latent hateness among different
ethnic
| groups living in the US - Whites, Blacks, Hispanic, Native Americans. They
| really dislike each other though all they are Americans.
It’s not much different than at any other place in the world. But in the
last past decades relations between races becoming more smooth .
At least, it is much better that to have homogeneous population who would
blow each other in offices, kill in bandit’s skirmishes, assassinate
journalists or government officials at the front doors of their homes as
in Russia.
|50% of American
| kids
| are raising without fathers -- too large for prosperous state.
Count how many orphans and street kids living in graveyards or dumpsters .
No matter from which side you start, the number will be not in Russia’s
favor.
Prostitution
| becomes
| usual deal for many young Americans. It is enough to give two times a tip
in
| a store
| to a cashier, in Homeland store, and if you are man visits store alone
| you'll get a
| card with a phone number of that guy -- I was discouraged getting such
card
| several
| times, it is terrible, in fact.
Perhaps you are too busy with spreading your soviet propaganda. But if you
would count prostitutes on Tverskaya street alone in Moscow, or count young
Russian conscripts sold as male prostitutes by their officers to gays in
st. Petersburg you would quickly realize that Homland store is just an
innocent kindergarten in comparison with range of activity of their Russian
colleagues.
| Do you think that it is a good country?
Yes , I do. It’s far from a perfect but still great.
| certainly don't know.
And you never will.
| I am certainly not sure that it is a good country. Look at yourself --
about
| 30% of
| Americans are fat, overweighted people. If people work much then they
cannot
| be fat!
That’s a stupid comparison. You can work as a horse but still be fat. A
lot of things depend of your constitution, metabolism, genes etc.
| Do you think that your biotech food is a human food? It is rather a
garbage.
No less idiotic comparison as it strictly depends on your preferences. Not
all people in the world consider your borsht or caviar a top of the
imagination as for some of them it is just a beet wash or fish eggs. In
addition in America you can find any European , Asian or Middle East cuisine
to satisfy all tastes .
| I nowhere
| saw such amount fat people as I saw in the US. If you're fat and don't
work
| hard then
| why you're so prosperous?
Because we are don’t drink vodka all day long, don’t steal whatever can be
stolen and sold from our country, don’t blame our neighbors for our failures
and don’t dream about world power status while our economy is in shambles as
in Russia.
| My understanding of America is that its capital is unevenly distributed
and
| there are " fat
| cats " -- capitalists around White House who influence the international
| policy of the US in
| order to earn some money else
That’s cheap and stupid communist stereotyping that is not changing since
your burring syphilitic Lenin first blurted it out . .
| they pressed on Clinton to initiate bombing
| in Kosovo,
| it gave them new orders to produce more weapon. Whole world besides
| Americans knows
| it. Though many Americans also do. I was listening and comparing the local
| radio (its name
| sounds as kei-ti okay) station in Oklahoma, NPR from Chicago and federal
| media in the time
| of bombing and remarked enormous difference in their content! Your federal
| media are censored
| and they lied. I also stayed just few meters from Bob Dole, your
politician,
| at North Oval in
| OU Campus during his speech -- he arrogantly lied about Yugoslavia -- and
| some students let
| him know what they think about him -- he got it).
| In capitalistic world money handle the world, does Clinton earn much
money?
| Did Eltsine
| earn much money?? Then who handle the world??? Americans got money, Serbs
| got
| bombing from western democrats and Russia keeps fullish silence -- I
| disagree with it.
If you are disagree, stop your traditional envy and counting money of the
others , stop blaming the world that it ignores you , learn to handle your
own failures, accept your history and carry a load you are able to lift and
to hold, but if you don’t , you still will be silent for a very long time
since losers don’t blow fanfares and their place is at the tail-end.
| I am a physicist and work in the field of Nuclear Magnetic and Quadrupole
| Resonances.
| One of my last adventures is a device for detection of drugs and
explosives
| in airports.
| Patent: V.S.Grechishkin, V.V.Korostelev, NQR device for simultaneous
| detection of
| several kinds of explosives and drugs in luggage, RU 2128832 C1, 1999.
|
| Are you satisfied Mr spy ? staten (?!) I don't care who you're.
|
A physicist-stalinist ? It’s a very unusual symbiosis as prominent Soviet
fd
Just like Clinton in Monica case. So, yes, he brought some weak uncertainty
instead of clear goals. He did not organize anything and did not do
anything. Everything just went regardless to his will. All his deeds ware
empty words. Good wishes, as you know, is a road to hell.
[2] All these crap about Stalin's time atrocities was well known and
publicly condemned in late 50s - early 60s. So there was almost nothing new
in "glastnost" for USSR citizens. With a few exceptions like Katyn.
(BTW, I think it was better not to admit it just like US would never admit
killing of Korean refugees - it warms up sorrows and does not do any good
for both parties). So, we already fought this war against Stalin's
bureaucracy and be blamed a part of it 40 years later (when you, not we, got
some knowledge) does not fill right. Although certain affiliation with
communism we (former USSR citizens) all had and I should admit that healing
process is not finished yet.
"Wayne Brown" <Wayne...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:936r7q$9bq$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
Wayne Brown
news:93533n$ig9$1...@news.tamu.edu...
[2] That was the method of partial truth that made up the system of lies.
After the party had approved the rehabilitation of some names, then it was
all right to speak in public about "too harsh punishment" of them. But no
one dared say: "Let's look into Comrade Bukharin's case." Moreover, no one
dared say: "Comrade XYZ was punished unjustly and, in a state based on
legality, an unjust sentence must be investigated and any culprit, no matter
what his party or government affiliations, must be punished for an
intentional miscarriage of justice."
[4] The period of thaw and its aftermath during the Brezhnev years brought
some hope but heaps of disappointment. When "Novy mir" published Alexander
Solzhenitsyn's "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" (1962), the story
hit Soviet intellectuals like a bombshell. Even after Solzhenitsyn and many
others had been muzzled, for years Soviet publications were handed around
for reading of stories and articles considered especially daring or
unusually liberal. Admittedly, one usually had to have the Soviet ability
"to read between the lines" to appreciate much of the material that had
attracted attention.
In this connection I recall some of the ways Soviet society was allowed to
let off steam in those days. For example, Soviet comedian Arkadi Raikin had
a skit about a grandmother (babushka) complaining to an official about
serious shortcomings and asking who is responsible for them. The dialogue
progresses from level to level, with the official always passing the blame
to a higher level and with the grandmother each time saying they are going
to have to bear responsibility. Finally, they reach the very top and the
babushka is just about to repeat her call for their punishment when the
official interrupts her, wagging his finger and saying admonishingly,
"Baaabushka, baaabushka!"
The Moscow Circus, for example, had a skit with a clown sitting with a book
and obviously making a great effort to learn English from it. Another clown
stumbles into the arena and asks him in apparent amazement what he's doing.
The learner answers: "I've got to learn English as fast as I can." "What in
the world for?" asks the other clown in disbelief. "I need English for a
trip I'm going to take." "My God, where are you going?" "Saratov."
Soviet audiences roared with laughter of appreciation and considered such
skits wonderfully open. I write these words with a measure of sadness for so
much wasted time and for so much wasted effort, which could have been put to
use to turn the hackneyed communist expression "bright future" into reality
for all.
Regards,-----WB.
Wayne Brown
(snipped material for comment on just the following)
> I just need to say that you understand almost nothing
> about the current events in Russia. Can you explain
> why many Russians like Soviet Union though from your
> point it was a prison ? At least it shows that they don't
> consider it as a prison.
People who grew up in the Soviet Union knew how the USSR functioned and they
felt completely at home in familiar circumstances. Millions never got into
any conflict of any kind with the regime. People understood the rules and
they followed them. They repeated the slogans out of Pravda as if actually
having influenced some decision or other taken by the authorities. People
may have grumbled from time to time that various consumer goods were not
available, but they learned to make do in the face of certain
insufficiencies.
Meanwhile, life went on; people went to school, had favorite teachers, often
got a good education, learned skills to get a job, went to work, got
married, had children -- good personal memories and bad ones, just like in
the lives of people all over the world. Personal experiences forged deep
friendships. Especially, important experiences in the war years formed bonds
of friendship that in some cases lasted a lifetime.
People would say 'they' have decided this or that and everyone knew who
'they' was. 'They' would not have told us about the Kursk because we did not
need to know. Rumors might have spread many months later about some incident
or other in the Barents Sea, but we would have asserted confidently that the
rumors were lies being spread by foreign enemies of the USSR. In fact, there
was no accountability at all to the Soviet people, many of whom said that
was all right because 'they' would tell us what we need to know.
To some of those people Russia today must still be a frightening place. I
caught myself at least in one instance thinking the way some of them may do
at times. In central Moscow I had entered a busy subway station at rush
hour, when hundreds of people were on the escalators going up and down.
Suddenly a young man of about 18 years of age yelled of the top of his voice
from the very top over the heads of the silent crowd to some girl going down
on the escalator: "Hey, Natash', khochesh' ebat'sya?" I thought to myself,
"Hooligan, you would not have dared pull a stunt like that in Soviet times;
if you had 'they' would have taken care of you in short order!" I was
shocked by my own reaction.
Regards,-----WB.
Vladimir Korostelev
Lev Landau told that a 5 minute conversation is enough
to understand who is your collocutor -- either a genius or
a fool and in your case just 5 seconds had been required.
Sincerely Non-Yours ,
Vladimir
staten <mbg0...@flash.net> ÐÉÛÅÔ ×
ÓÏÏÂÝÅÎÉÉ:9my56.37018$bw.24...@news.flash.net...
staten
| > Actually not! But in former soviet system, da! (preferable a member of
the
| > party)
|
| I meant Soviet Union time -- Communist Party didn't ask to be its member.
| People filled applications voluntirely. I personnaly know several
scientists
| who never was the communists but had high positions because of their
| talent. They participated in conferences abroad without any restrictions.
I still cannot understand either you pretend to be a fool or really are a
complete ignoramus all his life wearing Soviet glasses seeing nothing around
and believing unconditionally all state lies.
Without being a member of the communist party you never would built your
career . 99,9 % of all directors of plants, factories , heads of scientific
centers, government officials , captains of merchant ships, leaders of
worker unions etc. all they had to be members of party, without it , it
was simply impossible to carve your way up , because there were no options
left – either you a member of party that opens you a door to the net of
privileges or you prove your loyalty to the state participating in
obligatory activities expected from you by the state – squealing, approving
unconditionally all dirty deeds of the communist state, developing and
maintaining strictly anti-western views. Scientists , no matter how
talented they might be, were considered by the party bureaucrats in the same
light.
For instance, academician Kapitsa, a prominent, known to the whole world
physicist who refused to be a state kowtower, could neither go abroad nor
participate in international conferences.
|
| >>Then (in the SWW) Finland was an enemy because it supported Nazi.
| >>We fought with Nazi.
| >
| > That is not correct, You did not fight with nazi, You only had a
contract
| > with them, how to divide all small useless countries (Molotov-Rippentrop
| > pact), it was during the winter war, before the WW2. But nasty Finland
did
| > not agree with thought of Stalin and Hitler :)))
|
| Now all of you (Scandinavians, Baltic countries) manifestate yourself
| as noble democrats; it's not true, you licked Nazi asses just to save your
| lives and did nothing to fight against them. If Russians would failed in
| Moscow battle and in Stalingrad then you (including other european states
| such as Denmark, Holland, Poland and so on) hardly know you own language.
If you would not sign a shameless pact with Nazis but joined the West to
fight Hitler from the beginning , you would not lose so many lives and
WWII could take other course .
| > A civil war in Russia 1935-39??? No, there was only one army, Stalins
| army.
|
| Something like Civil War. There were enormous suspicion (idea of fight)
| among people, people were the conductors of violence themselves.
|
Right. Especially if those people were sitting in the Politburo.
AV
You must have spent some time in USSR haven't you ? This is clearly seen
from
your basiclaly correct asessments and analysis. As opposed to some
bigotted
morons who ackquire their knowledge from western propaganda sources.
Actually,
you touch apon a delicate issue. Soviet system, though excessively
restrictive
in many ways also restricted many negative phenomena, like drug usage,
prostitution, quasi free arm posession, corruption, separatist and
nationalist
manifstaions etc ... Now comes Freedom ! And brings us all these
niceties -
poverty, homeleseness, unimployment, regional conflicts, crime, drugs,
prostitution,
corruption ...
> Regards,-----WB.