Russian name equivalent in English - Please help
tgh...@attmail.com
I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
I find hard to believe.
I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Tom
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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Steve Belozeroff
Tom "Lyubov" is "Love" in Russian.
Continuing this analogy: Lyubov -> Luba as Antony -> Tony
You can't find any equivalents because it's "linguistically" Russian name
that had a meaning as a stand alone Russian word. All you can do is to find
close name in terms of pronunciation. Mine is Seva I chose Steve...
tgh...@attmail.com wrote in article <8672573...@dejanews.com>...
Marius Svenkerud
tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
> I find hard to believe.
Since "Ljubov" is connected to the Russian word "love", I suppose
the connection is that "Amy" is connected to a word for "love" as well:
amour and its like.
--
Marius Svenkerud
Marius Svenkerud
I wrote:
>Since "Ljubov" is connected to the Russian word "love",
That would be: "the Russian word _for_ 'love'", of course.
--
Marius Svenkerud
Rick Turkel
In article <8672573...@dejanews.com>, tgh...@attmail.com writes:
|> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
|> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
|> I find hard to believe.
|>
|> Any help would be appreciated.
|> Thanks
|> Tom
Well, Amy isn't exactly a "common equivalent," but both names mean "love"
so I guess it works. I've never heard of a nickname for Amy.
--
Rick Turkel (___ _____ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ _ _ ___
rtu...@freenet.columbus)oh.us| | \ ) |/ \ | | | \__) |
rtu...@cas.org / | _| __)/ | ___) | ___|_ | _( \ |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money. Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On 25 Jun 1997, Rick Turkel wrote:
> In article <8672573...@dejanews.com>, tgh...@attmail.com writes:
> |> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
> |> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
> |> I find hard to believe.
> |> I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
> |>
> |> Any help would be appreciated.
> |> Thanks
> |> Tom
>
> Well, Amy isn't exactly a "common equivalent," but both names mean "love"
> so I guess it works. I've never heard of a nickname for Amy.
>
> --
> Rick Turkel (___ _____ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ _ _ ___
>
Isn't Amy the nickname for Amelia ?????
Agur,
Oscar>
Byambaa Garid
Rick Turkel wrote:
>
> In article <8672573...@dejanews.com>, tgh...@attmail.com writes:
> |> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
> |> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
> |> I find hard to believe.
> |> I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
> |>
> |> Any help would be appreciated.
> |> Thanks
> |> Tom
>
> Well, Amy isn't exactly a "common equivalent," but both names mean "love"
> so I guess it works. I've never heard of a nickname for Amy.
love? The closest English word is amiable, I believe.
>
> --
> Rick Turkel (___ _____ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ _ _ ___
> rtu...@freenet.columbus)oh.us| | \ ) |/ \ | | | \__) |
> rtu...@cas.org / | _| __)/ | ___) | ___|_ | _( \ |
> Rich or poor, it's good to have money. Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.
--
Byambaagiin Garid
"Shine uye, shine sanaa, shine songuul', shine songolt"
Mongolyn Undesnii Ardchilsan Nam, Mongolyn Sotsial-Demokrat
Namyn "Ardchilsan Holboo" evsel. 1996 on.
es...@ici.net
> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
> I find hard to believe.
> I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
>
Ami and Ami will be the closest (the name has a French root) to Lubov.
Translating names is a very unproductive and usually foolish
occupation, you can't translate many of them. How would you translate,
say, Dick and all the nuances thereof into any tongue?
Cheers
Philip Kremer
In article <5os10f$gb8$4...@o.online.no>,
Marius Svenkerud <aa...@online.no> wrote:
>tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
>> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
>> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
>> I find hard to believe.
>
>the connection is that "Amy" is connected to a word for "love" as well:
>amour and its like.
>
The French name that most closely resembles "Amy" in sound is "Aime"
(there's an accent on the "e") for boys and "Aimee" (with an accent on the
first e) for girls. Strictly speaking "Aime" and "Aimee" mean "beloved"
or "loved one" -- these names do not mean "love". I do not know whether
these names are common in France, but I do know a French Canadian named
"Aime", and I gather that these names are not uncommon in Quebec. "Ami"
means "friend" but is never used as a name, so I would guess that "Amy" is
an Anglicization of "Aime" and "Aimee" -- both these names are pronounced
eh-may', though the "ay" sound is short and the accent is on the second
syllable.
Rick Turkel
In article <Pine.A32.3.93.970625...@dakota.gate.net>, Oscar
Ugarriza <leso...@gate.net> writes:
|>
|>
|>
|> Oscar Ugarriza
|>
|> leso...@gate.net
|>
|> Agur,
|> Oscar>
|>
For all I know it might be, but it's also a name unto itself, cognate with
the French Aime'e.
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On 26 Jun 1997, Rick Turkel wrote:
> For all I know it might be, but it's also a name unto itself, cognate with
> the French Aime'e.
>
I said that because my sister's name is Amelie and we sometimes call her
Amy.
Agur,
Oscar
John Woodgate
In article <33b2541...@news.ici.net>, "es...@ici.net" <es...@ici.net>
writes
>
>
>> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
>> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
>> I find hard to believe.
>>
>
>
>Ami and Ami will be the closest (the name has a French root) to Lubov.
>Translating names is a very unproductive and usually foolish
>occupation, you can't translate many of them. How would you translate,
>say, Dick and all the nuances thereof into any tongue?
>
>Cheers
Well, it may not be so foolish. Names are a very special type of word,
and the same name does appear in what would otherwise be regarded as
widely different languages, so it can throw light on the history and
evolution of languages. Also, people with a name they don't like can
switch to a more attractive one in another language. For example, this
thread started with 'Lyubov'. Not so feminine-sounding in Western
European languages - Amy is better but the Welsh 'Angharad' is extremely
exotic! Take another example, 'Vuslan' in Turkish, 'Tryst' in English.
y...@thenet.co.uk
That means I get double spam with everything (*-(
Rex Pyles
All this talk about the names Ljubov' and Amy brings to mind a song
sung by the late Bulat Okudzhava, "Vera, Nadezhda i Ljubov'" (which
names mean faith, hope, and love).
Sergei N. Tsivunin
Dear Sir,
tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
: I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
: name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
: I find hard to believe.
: I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
With due respect, never translate names from one language to another.
"Lyubov", or "Lyuba", "Lyubochka" etc are all different forms of the
Russian name "Lyubov". This is the name this lady was given by her
parents. If she respects her parents and her Russian heritage, she will
never agree to corrupt her name and try to render it in English or any
other language.
In fact, my full Russian name is Sergei Nikolaevich Tsivunin and this is
the name that appears in my Canadian passport. Full Russian names consist
of a forename (Sergei), patronymic (Nikolaevich) and a surname (Tsivunin).
None of these constituent parts is optional.
Yours sincerely,
--
SN Tsivunin MA ATA C Tran (ATIO) Toronto:
Russian Consulting Telefax: 1 (416) 245-5505
Interpreter & Translator E-Mail: at...@torfree.net
John Woodgate
In article <ECLH15.6D...@torfree.net>, "Sergei N. Tsivunin"
<at...@torfree.net> writes
>Dear Sir,
>
>tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
>
>: I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
>: name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
>: I find hard to believe.
>: I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
>
>With due respect, never translate names from one language to another.
>"Lyubov", or "Lyuba", "Lyubochka" etc are all different forms of the
>Russian name "Lyubov". This is the name this lady was given by her
>parents. If she respects her parents and her Russian heritage, she will
>never agree to corrupt her name and try to render it in English or any
>other language.
>
>In fact, my full Russian name is Sergei Nikolaevich Tsivunin and this is
>the name that appears in my Canadian passport. Full Russian names consist
>of a forename (Sergei), patronymic (Nikolaevich) and a surname (Tsivunin).
>None of these constituent parts is optional.
>
>Yours sincerely,
It is surely up to the bearer of the name to decide whether she wants it
translated or not. You have decided to keep yours but others may not. If
you wnet to live in, say, Hawaii, where some people would have
difficulty pronouncing your name, you might get so fed up with it that
you would decide to temporarily adopt a name that they could pronounce.
--
Regards, John Woodgate. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. OOO - Own Opinions Only
Alternative e-mail: jm...@thenet.co.uk
That means I get double spam with everything (>>8-(
Sergei N. Tsivunin
Dear Sir,
John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: >With due respect, never translate names from one language to another.
: >"Lyubov", or "Lyuba", "Lyubochka" etc are all different forms of the
: >Russian name "Lyubov". This is the name this lady was given by her
: >parents. If she respects her parents and her Russian heritage, she will
: >never agree to corrupt her name and try to render it in English or any
: >other language.
: >
: >In fact, my full Russian name is Sergei Nikolaevich Tsivunin and this is
: >the name that appears in my Canadian passport. Full Russian names consist
: >of a forename (Sergei), patronymic (Nikolaevich) and a surname (Tsivunin).
: >None of these constituent parts is optional.
: It is surely up to the bearer of the name to decide whether she wants it
: translated or not. You have decided to keep yours but others may not. If
: you wnet to live in, say, Hawaii, where some people would have
: difficulty pronouncing your name, you might get so fed up with it that
: you would decide to temporarily adopt a name that they could pronounce.
Your comment may have some value in it: from the perspective of individual
freedom. Indeed, a person may changer his name any way he wants. For some
reason, I am reminded of early days of Communist Russia when parents were
giving their offspring names like Traktor (Tractor) or Pyatiletka
(Five-Year Plan).
My objection to translating names is one of a professional translator.
Such practice would lead to most incongruous renderings of proper names:
John Woodgate would become in Russian Vanya Derevyannye Vorota etc. I
maintain that if a person is proud of his heritage, he would never corrupt
his name.
The fact that foreigners cannot pronounce some Russian names reflects
poorly on those foreigners. An educated and considerate foreigner would
always make an honest attempt to pronounce your name and the result, no
matter how corrupted, would always be better than making a travesty of
your own name.
John Woodgate
In article <ECy8LF.I3...@torfree.net>, "Sergei N. Tsivunin"
<at...@torfree.net> writes
>My objection to translating names is one of a professional translator.
>Such practice would lead to most incongruous renderings of proper names:
Yes, I agree, in a professional context.
>John Woodgate would become in Russian Vanya Derevyannye Vorota
Herbertovitch, please!
>etc. I
>maintain that if a person is proud of his heritage, he would never corrupt
>his name.
Well, in a social context, I am indeed Hans Holztur in Germany and
(something I can't render in Roman letters) Mori-kado in Japan. I do
tend to regard those names as (undeserved) tokens of appreciation.
>
>The fact that foreigners cannot pronounce some Russian names reflects
>poorly on those foreigners. An educated and considerate foreigner would
>always make an honest attempt to pronounce your name and the result, no
>matter how corrupted, would always be better than making a travesty of
>your own name.
Yes, 'educated and considerate' (I'll pass over who is the 'foreigner'
in this context), but after ten thousand mis-addressed letters and
another ten thousand "How do you spell that"s, pragmatism may triumph.
Gwalchmai
Amy means loved or friend- perhaps that is the reason it was suggested as
a translation for Lyuba.
As for the question of wheather or not a name should be translated- I was
told that my American nickname- Mandy- is close to a Russian obscenity- so
I go by Mila on the newsgroups which -as I understand it- has the same
meaning.
Peace of Christ to you.
-Mila
--
ł...at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the Earth, and every tongue confess that jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.˛ - Philippians 2:10-11
tgh...@attmail.com
Thanks to everyone who posted replies to my question; they were all quite
interesting and informative. The original post referred to a 3 year old
girl who will be coming to live in the US. While I think the name Lyubov
is nice, my concern was for the difficluty over the years using that name
in US culture. I'm currently considering additional names frequently used
in Russia (Larissa, Katrina, etc.) Thanks Tom
In article <8672573...@dejanews.com>,
tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
>
> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
> I find hard to believe.
> I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Thanks
> Tom
>
Boris Velikovich
John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <ECy8LF.I3...@torfree.net>, "Sergei N. Tsivunin"
: <at...@torfree.net> writes
: >My objection to translating names is one of a professional translator.
: >Such practice would lead to most incongruous renderings of proper names:
: Yes, I agree, in a professional context.
: >John Woodgate would become in Russian Vanya Derevyannye Vorota
: Herbertovitch, please!
: >etc. I
: >maintain that if a person is proud of his heritage, he would never corrupt
: >his name.
: Well, in a social context, I am indeed Hans Holztur in Germany and
: (something I can't render in Roman letters) Mori-kado in Japan. I do
: tend to regard those names as (undeserved) tokens of appreciation.
: >
: >The fact that foreigners cannot pronounce some Russian names reflects
: >poorly on those foreigners. An educated and considerate foreigner would
: >always make an honest attempt to pronounce your name and the result, no
: >matter how corrupted, would always be better than making a travesty of
: >your own name.
: Yes, 'educated and considerate' (I'll pass over who is the 'foreigner'
: in this context), but after ten thousand mis-addressed letters and
: another ten thousand "How do you spell that"s, pragmatism may triumph.
Well, I agree with you. My first name (Boris) doesn't create problems for me
in the English-speaking environment (even though people pronounce it with
the wrong stress, I feel OK with it). However, my last name (Velikovich) is
nearly always misspelled by English-speaking people with no background in
Slavic languages. Does it mean I need to change it to "Great," then? That would
sound *great*, wouldn't it?
Also, I am surprised by the American tradition to use pet names instead of
full names. Why in the world the President is called Bill and not William Jefferson? Why is the Vice-President Al and not Albert? In Russia, only your
friends and family can call you by your pet name, unless you are a young kid.
I live in the U.S. and I want people to call me Boris -- not Bor'ka or Boriska,
as my family and Russian-speaking friends call me. Anything else is disrespect.
Boris
: --
John Woodgate
In article <5q0ues$o...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, Boris Velikovich
<bo...@cs.umd.edu> writes
>John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: : Well, in a social context, I am indeed Hans Holztur in Germany and
>: (something I can't render in Roman letters) Mori-kado in Japan. I do
>: tend to regard those names as (undeserved) tokens of appreciation.
[snip]
>
>: Yes, 'educated and considerate' (I'll pass over who is the 'foreigner'
>: in this context), but after ten thousand mis-addressed letters and
>: another ten thousand "How do you spell that"s, pragmatism may triumph.
>
>Well, I agree with you. My first name (Boris) doesn't create problems for me
>in the English-speaking environment (even though people pronounce it with
>the wrong stress, I feel OK with it). However, my last name (Velikovich) is
>nearly always misspelled by English-speaking people with no background in
>Slavic languages. Does it mean I need to change it to "Great," then? That would
>sound *great*, wouldn't it?
I know very little Russian indeed. Does Velikovich mean 'Great', then?
No, I would't suggest that, since it would be a strange name in English.
You could perhaps use a near synonym, such as 'Major', of course!
>Also, I am surprised by the American tradition to use pet names instead of
>full names. Why in the world the President is called Bill and not William
>Jefferson? Why is the Vice-President Al and not Albert? In Russia, only your
>friends and family can call you by your pet name, unless you are a young kid.
>I live in the U.S. and I want people to call me Boris -- not Bor'ka or Boriska,
>as my family and Russian-speaking friends call me. Anything else is disrespect.
>
> Boris
>
Well, this is just cultural difference. In Britain (south of Watford,
anyway) it is even stranger. Men tend to refer to each other by surname,
whereas women use first names! And there are all sorts of social groups
who do, or do not, use 'pet names' or 'nicknames'. The Scout Movement
and the Fire Service use nicknames extensively.
John Woodgate
In article <gwalch-0707...@hutch13.ourtownusa.com>, Gwalchmai
<gwa...@ourtownusa.com> writes
>
>Amy means loved or friend- perhaps that is the reason it was suggested as
>a translation for Lyuba.
>As for the question of wheather or not a name should be translated- I was
>told that my American nickname- Mandy- is close to a Russian obscenity- so
>I go by Mila on the newsgroups which -as I understand it- has the same
>meaning.
>Peace of Christ to you.
>-Mila
>
which is Latin for 'she is fit to be loved'. I would have thought that,
too, would be 'Lyubov' or something similar in Russian. If not, perhaps
Lyuba should simply adopt the truly Russian "Mila", more euphonious to
Western ears, if she wants to.
Boris Velikovich
John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <5q0ues$o...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, Boris Velikovich
: >: : Well, in a social context, I am indeed Hans Holztur in Germany and
: >: (something I can't render in Roman letters) Mori-kado in Japan. I do
: >: tend to regard those names as (undeserved) tokens of appreciation.
: [snip]
: >
: >: Yes, 'educated and considerate' (I'll pass over who is the 'foreigner'
: >: in this context), but after ten thousand mis-addressed letters and
: >: another ten thousand "How do you spell that"s, pragmatism may triumph.
: >
: >Well, I agree with you. My first name (Boris) doesn't create problems for me
: >in the English-speaking environment (even though people pronounce it with
: >the wrong stress, I feel OK with it). However, my last name (Velikovich) is
: >nearly always misspelled by English-speaking people with no background in
: >Slavic languages. Does it mean I need to change it to "Great," then? That would
: >sound *great*, wouldn't it?
: I know very little Russian indeed. Does Velikovich mean 'Great', then?
: No, I would't suggest that, since it would be a strange name in English.
: You could perhaps use a near synonym, such as 'Major', of course!
"Velikovich" means "son of a great man" in Slavic languages. And you are
right, the name "Great" would sound strange in English. I am pretty ambivalent
about changing my last name, because, on one side, I was born with my last
name and it reflects my origin and my family, but on the other side, I am sick
and tired of people's fruitless attempts to pronounce or spell this name pro-
perly.
: >Also, I am surprised by the American tradition to use pet names instead of
: >full names. Why in the world the President is called Bill and not William
: >Jefferson? Why is the Vice-President Al and not Albert? In Russia, only your
: >friends and family can call you by your pet name, unless you are a young kid.
: >I live in the U.S. and I want people to call me Boris -- not Bor'ka or Boriska,
: >as my family and Russian-speaking friends call me. Anything else is disrespect.
: >
: > Boris
: >
: Well, this is just cultural difference. In Britain (south of Watford,
: anyway) it is even stranger. Men tend to refer to each other by surname,
: whereas women use first names! And there are all sorts of social groups
: who do, or do not, use 'pet names' or 'nicknames'. The Scout Movement
: and the Fire Service use nicknames extensively.
You mean British people call each other "Mr" and "Mrs" exclusively?
What about celebrities? The Queen is always called "Elizabeth," not "Beth"
or "Liz"; her former daughter-in-law, on the other hand, is known as "Di."
In the U.S., *all* people can be addressed by nicknames -- even the upper-class
ones ; as a person born in Russia, I find that ridiculous.
Boris
: >: --
: >: Regards, John Woodgate. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
: >: Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. OOO - Own Opinions Only
: >: Alternative e-mail: jm...@thenet.co.uk
: >: That means I get double spam with everything (>>8-(
: --
Boris Velikovich
John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <gwalch-0707...@hutch13.ourtownusa.com>, Gwalchmai
: <gwa...@ourtownusa.com> writes
: >
: >Amy means loved or friend- perhaps that is the reason it was suggested as
: >a translation for Lyuba.
: >As for the question of wheather or not a name should be translated- I was
: >told that my American nickname- Mandy- is close to a Russian obscenity- so
: >I go by Mila on the newsgroups which -as I understand it- has the same
: >meaning.
: >Peace of Christ to you.
: >-Mila
: >
: Not sure I get that, Mila. 'Mandy' is normally a contractions of Amanda,
: which is Latin for 'she is fit to be loved'. I would have thought that,
: too, would be 'Lyubov' or something similar in Russian. If not, perhaps
: Lyuba should simply adopt the truly Russian "Mila", more euphonious to
: Western ears, if she wants to.
How about Linda? This name means "beautiful," starts with L just like Lyuba,
and is euphonious to Russian ears as well as Western ears.
Also, I see nothing wrong in translating "Lyuba" as "Amy." The only problem
here is that for people who don't know the origin of these names it is hard
to understand the correlation between those, and phonetically these two names
have nothing in common.
I wonder why some female Russian names (such as Tanya, Natasha, or Sonya)
became so widespread in the West, whereas other names (like Lyuba or Dasha)
exist only in Russia.
M. Papisov
In article <5q2oj7$a...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
Velikovich) wrote:
> In the U.S., *all* people can be addressed by nicknames -- even
the upper-class
> ones ; as a person born in Russia, I find that ridiculous.
Typical cultural intolerance :)
1. Why would you demonstratively pay more respect to people with power and
money than to others? (many of them would find it ridiculous if not
disgusting, by the way).
2. If you want to use full names, are you willing to spend couple of
minutes each time (some long Spanish names), or screw your tongue trying
to make it "right" in languages where all the sounds differ from whatever
you can realistically produce?
3. If someone wants you to call him/her by (one of the) middle name(s),
would you insist on using his first name?
4. If you want them to call you "Boris" (and they obviously agree), why
couldn't you call them whatever they like??
Uspehov™
MP
--
* please delete the very first letter in my email address to reply.
Nobody at all, including my past, current and future employers, is responsible for whatever is written above.
John Woodgate
In article <5q2oj7$a...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, Boris Velikovich
<bo...@cs.umd.edu> writes
>"Velikovich" means "son of a great man" in Slavic languages. And you are
>right, the name "Great" would sound strange in English. I am pretty ambivalent
>about changing my last name, because, on one side, I was born with my last
>name and it reflects my origin and my family, but on the other side, I am sick
>and tired of people's fruitless attempts to pronounce or spell this name pro-
>perly.
Well, we can't tell if it's Russian (transliterated Velikovich), Czech
(Velicovic~ - can't do the circumflex), Polish (Welicowicsz?), Bulgarian
or Serbian.(;-)
>
>: >Also, I am surprised by the American tradition to use pet names instead of
>: >full names. Why in the world the President is called Bill and not William
>: >Jefferson? Why is the Vice-President Al and not Albert? In Russia, only your
>: >friends and family can call you by your pet name, unless you are a young kid.
>: >I live in the U.S. and I want people to call me Boris -- not Bor'ka or
>Boriska,
>: >as my family and Russian-speaking friends call me. Anything else is
>disrespect.
>: >
>: > Boris
>: >
>: Well, this is just cultural difference. In Britain (south of Watford,
>: anyway) it is even stranger. Men tend to refer to each other by surname,
>: whereas women use first names! And there are all sorts of social groups
>: who do, or do not, use 'pet names' or 'nicknames'. The Scout Movement
>: and the Fire Service use nicknames extensively.
>
>You mean British people call each other "Mr" and "Mrs" exclusively?
No, I could say to you' Smith told me that..', but a female would say
'Tony told me that...'. If she said 'Smith' it would show that she
disliked him a lot.
>What about celebrities? The Queen is always called "Elizabeth," not "Beth"
>or "Liz";
The Queen has been called 'Liz' in American newspapers. Many years ago
it was disclosed that her pet name is 'Lilibet'. Obviously, only the
family (and possibly only the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret) use
it.)
> her former daughter-in-law, on the other hand, is known as "Di."
Only in newspapers. The future King William IV is 'officially' known as
'Wills' (not Bill or Willy) in newspapers and probably to his fellow-
scholars at Eton. I doubt they call him 'Windsor'.
>In the U.S., *all* people can be addressed by nicknames -- even the upper-class
>ones ; as a person born in Russia, I find that ridiculous.
No, some people don't attract nicknames. Some even retain all three
names in full, such as 'John Foster Dulles'.(You may be too young to
remember him.)
Oscar Ugarriza
Oscar Ugarriza
On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Eugene Soukharnikov wrote:
[tons of snips]
You had a very interesting post here. FYI I've had lots of fun translating
(but never permanently) my Basque surname Ugarriza which means Stone of
Water (or Waterstone, if you please) in English. Anybody can take it from
there......
Agur,
Oscar
Eugene Soukharnikov
>Dear Sir,
>
>John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: >With due respect, never translate names from one language to another.
>: >"Lyubov", or "Lyuba", "Lyubochka" etc are all different forms of the
>: >Russian name "Lyubov". This is the name this lady was given by her
>: >parents. If she respects her parents and her Russian heritage, she will
>: >never agree to corrupt her name and try to render it in English or any
>: >other language.
>: >
>: >In fact, my full Russian name is Sergei Nikolaevich Tsivunin and this is
>: >the name that appears in my Canadian passport. Full Russian names consist
>: >of a forename (Sergei), patronymic (Nikolaevich) and a surname (Tsivunin).
>: >None of these constituent parts is optional.
>
>: It is surely up to the bearer of the name to decide whether she wants it
>: translated or not. You have decided to keep yours but others may not. If
>: you wnet to live in, say, Hawaii, where some people would have
>: difficulty pronouncing your name, you might get so fed up with it that
>: you would decide to temporarily adopt a name that they could pronounce.
>
>Your comment may have some value in it: from the perspective of individual
>freedom. Indeed, a person may changer his name any way he wants. For some
>reason, I am reminded of early days of Communist Russia when parents were
>giving their offspring names like Traktor (Tractor) or Pyatiletka
>(Five-Year Plan).
>
>My objection to translating names is one of a professional translator.
>Such practice would lead to most incongruous renderings of proper names:
>John Woodgate would become in Russian Vanya Derevyannye Vorota etc. I
>maintain that if a person is proud of his heritage, he would never corrupt
>his name.
>
>The fact that foreigners cannot pronounce some Russian names reflects
>poorly on those foreigners. An educated and considerate foreigner would
>always make an honest attempt to pronounce your name and the result, no
>matter how corrupted, would always be better than making a travesty of
>your own name.
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>--
>SN Tsivunin MA ATA C Tran (ATIO) Toronto:
>Russian Consulting Telefax: 1 (416) 245-5505
>Interpreter & Translator E-Mail: at...@torfree.net
You are correct of course but... there quite a few buts. There was
(and to a lesser degree still is), a tendency to translate first names
into the target language or at least find a match. For example,
Austrian Prinz Eugen is Prints Evgeni in Russian literature and
history books, to the English speaking folk, he is Prince Eugene of
Savoy. Pisatel Lev Tolstoy is Graf Leo Tolstoi to the Germans.
Evgeni Onegin is Eugene Onegin to the English speaking readers and
Eugen Onegin to the Germans. Pushkin (or Pouchkine or even Puschkin)
is either Alexander, Alexandre or Aleksander but almost never
Aleksandr. Because of the different alphabet, there can be enormous
amounts of confusion over the name spelling ≈ is he Evgeni, Evgenij,
Yevgeni, Yvgenij, Yvgeniy, Yvgheni, Eugueni (I saw that one too) as
well as Yevghueni - if you cross the borders, the spelling might
become a real torture. We almost universally translate names of the
monarchs without even thinking twice. Edward the Confessor is Eduard
Ispovednik while Charlemagne is Karl Veliki. Piotr I ili Pyotr Veliki
is Pierre le Grand to the French, Peter the Great to the English and
Peter der Grosse to the Germans. Folks also liked to get their names
translated into Latin, Piotr I on the famous monument in
St.Petersburg's Senate Square, is *Petro Primo* from *Catharina
Secunda.*
I think it is fun to know how your name sounds in another language.
Not all names can be translated, say how would you translate name Otto
into French? Other names can be loosely translated from one language
into another but not the third. Like Russian Igor's cousins are
Scandianvian Ingvar and Ingmar but there is no English equivalent for
them in English, as there is no match for Olga, who is a relative of
Helga. I think linguistically, Amy (with a somewhat French detour) is
the direct translation of Lubov. Happily, most English and Russian
names (with the exception for names of Germanic, Celtic, Slavic and
odd origins) can be traced together, are similar because of common
heritage. Both Russia and England became Christian before the split of
the Church (so the first English church was "Eastern"), and thus both
Russian and English (and French) languages have a very common
collection of names: Aleksandr - Alexander, Aleksei-Alexis,
Andrei-Andrew, Klavdia-Claudia, Vasili-Basil (-v and -b and -c, and -k
change as they please and jump all over), Danila - Daniel, Ieremei (or
Jeremei) - Jeremy, Elizaveta - Elizabeth, Ekaterina - Catharine,
Irina- Irene, Anna - Anne, Iakov (or Jakov) - Jacob, Ivan - John, Luka
- Luke, Maria - Mary, Marfa-Martha, Pavel - Paul, Piotr - Peter, Julia
(Iluia) - Julia, Fiodor- Theodore (-th and -f also tend to mutate for
whatever reason as do -h and -g, probably because Russians took lots
from the Greeks and the Greeks simply don*t have the sound h, -s and
-es also loves to run away especially at the end of twords, so Russian
*ad* is to the French and English hades which is exactly the same
thing!), Foma-Thomas, Filip-Phillip, Timofei-Timothy etc. Try doing
that with Chinese names.
Евгений Сухарников
Eugene Soukharnikov
es...@ici.net
Boris Velikovich
M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
: In article <5q2oj7$a...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
: Velikovich) wrote:
: > In the U.S., *all* people can be addressed by nicknames -- even
: the upper-class
: > ones ; as a person born in Russia, I find that ridiculous.
: Typical cultural intolerance :)
: 1. Why would you demonstratively pay more respect to people with power and
: money than to others? (many of them would find it ridiculous if not
: disgusting, by the way).
Why not??? In Russia, would you address your boss as Vovchik or as Vladimir
Petrovich? Also, why do you think the popular jokes are about Pet'ka and
Vasiliy Ivanovich, not about Pet'ka and Vas'ka?
Also, even in the egalitarian U.S. where there are no inherited titles,
such titles as Dr., Hon., or Judge are always explicitly pronounced.
: 2. If you want to use full names, are you willing to spend couple of
: minutes each time (some long Spanish names), or screw your tongue trying
: to make it "right" in languages where all the sounds differ from whatever
: you can realistically produce?
Yes, you need to honestly try to pronounce these names properly.
: 3. If someone wants you to call him/her by (one of the) middle name(s),
: would you insist on using his first name?
Well, no, as long as the person himself/herself wants other to call him by this name.
: 4. If you want them to call you "Boris" (and they obviously agree), why
: couldn't you call them whatever they like??
Depends on their level. I still favour the old Mr/Mrs/no nicknames style.
I would feel awkward if someone much below me would call me by my first name.
: Uspehov™
Spasibo.
: MP
Boris Velikovich
John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <5q2oj7$a...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, Boris Velikovich
: <bo...@cs.umd.edu> writes
: >"Velikovich" means "son of a great man" in Slavic languages. And you are
: >right, the name "Great" would sound strange in English. I am pretty ambivalent
: >about changing my last name, because, on one side, I was born with my last
: >name and it reflects my origin and my family, but on the other side, I am sick
: >and tired of people's fruitless attempts to pronounce or spell this name pro-
: >perly.
: Well, we can't tell if it's Russian (transliterated Velikovich), Czech
: (Velicovic~ - can't do the circumflex), Polish (Welicowicsz?), Bulgarian
: or Serbian.(;-)
:
It is Serbian, and represents my Slavic heritage.
>
: >: >Also, I am surprised by the American tradition to use pet names instead of
: >: >full names. Why in the world the President is called Bill and not William
: >: >Jefferson? Why is the Vice-President Al and not Albert? In Russia, only your
: >: >friends and family can call you by your pet name, unless you are a young kid.
: >: >I live in the U.S. and I want people to call me Boris -- not Bor'ka or
: >Boriska,
: >: >as my family and Russian-speaking friends call me. Anything else is
: >disrespect.
: >: >
: >: > Boris
: >: >
: >: Well, this is just cultural difference. In Britain (south of Watford,
: >: anyway) it is even stranger. Men tend to refer to each other by surname,
: >: whereas women use first names! And there are all sorts of social groups
: >: who do, or do not, use 'pet names' or 'nicknames'. The Scout Movement
: >: and the Fire Service use nicknames extensively.
: >
: >You mean British people call each other "Mr" and "Mrs" exclusively?
: No, I could say to you' Smith told me that..', but a female would say
: 'Tony told me that...'. If she said 'Smith' it would show that she
: disliked him a lot.
Wow, it is great... In the U.S. it is used only occasionally...
: >What about celebrities? The Queen is always called "Elizabeth," not "Beth"
: >or "Liz";
: The Queen has been called 'Liz' in American newspapers. Many years ago
: it was disclosed that her pet name is 'Lilibet'. Obviously, only the
: family (and possibly only the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret) use
: it.)
You see? She is Lilibet only for people related to her, and maybe her friends.
For all others she is Elizabeth.
: > her former daughter-in-law, on the other hand, is known as "Di."
: Only in newspapers. The future King William IV is 'officially' known as
: 'Wills' (not Bill or Willy) in newspapers and probably to his fellow-
: scholars at Eton. I doubt they call him 'Windsor'.
Well, I am sure he will be King William IV, not king Wills IV.
: >In the U.S., *all* people can be addressed by nicknames -- even the upper-class
: >ones ; as a person born in Russia, I find that ridiculous.
: No, some people don't attract nicknames. Some even retain all three
: names in full, such as 'John Foster Dulles'.(You may be too young to
: remember him.)
I don't remember him, but the local airport is called in his honour.
Boris
: --
Christina Kunze
> (Velicovic~ - can't do the circumflex), Polish (Welicowicsz?), Bulgarian
chr
M. Papisov
In article <5q5jko$m...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
Velikovich) wrote:
> M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
> : 1. Why would you demonstratively pay more respect to people
with power and
> : money than to others? (many of them would find it ridiculous if not
> : disgusting, by the way).
>
> Why not??? In Russia, would you address your boss as Vovchik or
as Vladimir
> Petrovich?
Good one :)
As far as I am concerned, it would not depend on someone's
social/administrative position. It would depend exclusively on his/her age
(I do not mean formal situations where _everybody_, not only the boss,
would suddenly acquire a second name).
But I can't claim, of course, that my approach would be most productive :)))
> Also, why do you think the popular jokes are about Pet'ka and
> Vasiliy Ivanovich, not about Pet'ka and Vas'ka?
Did I say that Russian culture suggests calling each other this way??
Regarding the jokes: just because they become easier to understand. If you
a going to tell a joke about The Boss and his junior sidekick, you better
find a way to explain it before you start telling the joke. For a Russian,
these names explain the situation perfectly. This particular situation
involves not only the names, but a reference to well known movie
characters. Try telling the same joke about, say, Sergej Petrovich and
Shurka - what do you get? Funny?
> Also, even in the egalitarian U.S. where there are no inherited
titles,
> such titles as Dr., Hon., or Judge are always explicitly pronounced.
Only in rare very formal situations that require using the titles.
> : 2. If you want to use full names, are you willing to spend couple of
> : minutes each time (some long Spanish names), or screw your
tongue trying
> : to make it "right" in languages where all the sounds differ
from whatever
> : you can realistically produce?
>
> Yes, you need to honestly try to pronounce these names properly.
Well, I always try to make it once, not only out of curiosity but as a
proof of my respect in case the guy is name-sensitive :)))) But every
day?!..
> : 4. If you want them to call you "Boris" (and they obviously
agree), why
> : couldn't you call them whatever they like??
>
> Depends on their level. I still favour the old Mr/Mrs/no
nicknames style.
> I would feel awkward if someone much below me would call me by
my first name.
You don't really think your title or social status can make you any
_better_, do you?
Then, what do you mean - "below"? Less money, less power, smaller muscle,
or what?
A.M. Pezacki
>
>How about Linda? This name means "beautiful," starts with L just like Lyuba,
>and is euphonious to Russian ears as well as Western ears.
I have a suggestion. We have to learn to speak English properly, let
English speaking people learn how to pronounce our names properly. It's
only fair. Liuba, please do not change your beautiful name. I do not let
anyone mispronounce my family name, nor shorten my first name to Ann.
anna
--
============================================================================
A. M. Pezacki, M.A.Sc., P. Eng.,
AMP Consulting,
Advanced Computing Technologies and Applications,
Mikhail Cherny
A.M. Pezacki wrote:
>
> >
> >How about Linda? This name means "beautiful," starts with L just like Lyuba,
> >and is euphonious to Russian ears as well as Western ears.
>
> I have a suggestion. We have to learn to speak English properly, let
> English speaking people learn how to pronounce our names properly. It's
> only fair. Liuba, please do not change your beautiful name. I do not let
> anyone mispronounce my family name, nor shorten my first name to Ann.
> anna
> --
That's funny, 'coz you already mispronounced it. I mean, shouldn't it
sound like (you're female, right?) Pezacka? :)
--
Whatever,
M.W. (Misha, ICQ# 960072)
------------
There's no escape -- we pay for the violence of our ancestors.
Muad'Dib
Boris Velikovich
M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
: In article <5q5jko$m...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
: Velikovich) wrote:
: > M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
: > : 1. Why would you demonstratively pay more respect to people
: with power and
: > : money than to others? (many of them would find it ridiculous if not
: > : disgusting, by the way).
: >
: > Why not??? In Russia, would you address your boss as Vovchik or
: as Vladimir
: > Petrovich?
: Good one :)
: As far as I am concerned, it would not depend on someone's
: social/administrative position. It would depend exclusively on his/her age
: (I do not mean formal situations where _everybody_, not only the boss,
: would suddenly acquire a second name).
: But I can't claim, of course, that my approach would be most productive :)))
Well, suppose a guy in his fifties works for someone in his thirties.
Does that authorize him to call his boss (much younger than him) Vovchik?
I think that even when the two of them have an informal lunch, pet names
are still not pronounced.
And in no way would a member of the Russian government call himself by
a nickname in public. The American tradition of calling political leaders
by their nicknames started from James "Jimmy" Carter.
: > Also, why do you think the popular jokes are about Pet'ka and
: > Vasiliy Ivanovich, not about Pet'ka and Vas'ka?
: Did I say that Russian culture suggests calling each other this way??
You implied that it is OK to call each other by nicknames and first names.
: Regarding the jokes: just because they become easier to understand. If you
: a going to tell a joke about The Boss and his junior sidekick, you better
: find a way to explain it before you start telling the joke. For a Russian,
: these names explain the situation perfectly. This particular situation
: involves not only the names, but a reference to well known movie
: characters. Try telling the same joke about, say, Sergej Petrovich and
: Shurka - what do you get? Funny?
Well, in this situation the boss has 2 names and the junior sidekick is called
by a nickname. That is how it is supposed to be!
And these jokes are ABOUT these two movie characters -- not just any two
people who have the same relationship as those.
: > Also, even in the egalitarian U.S. where there are no inherited
: titles,
: > such titles as Dr., Hon., or Judge are always explicitly pronounced.
: Only in rare very formal situations that require using the titles.
Well, how will you call your professor? Dr. Smith or just Bill?
How will you call a minister? Rev. Jones or just Joe?
Titles are very important. In the U.S., they are not as important as in
England, France, or other countries with inherited titles, but still, you
won't hurt anyone by calling him by his title.
> : 2. If you want to use full names,
are you willing to spend couple of
: > : minutes each time (some long Spanish names), or screw your
: tongue trying
: > : to make it "right" in languages where all the sounds differ
: from whatever
: > : you can realistically produce?
: >
: > Yes, you need to honestly try to pronounce these names properly.
: Well, I always try to make it once, not only out of curiosity but as a
: proof of my respect in case the guy is name-sensitive :)))) But every
: day?!..
:
So? My system administrator has a very long and hard to pronounce Chinese name that he won't change, and I interact with him every day. Do I have any
alternative to attempting to pronounce his name correctly?
: > : 4. If you want them to call you "Boris" (and they obviously
: agree), why
: > : couldn't you call them whatever they like??
: >
: > Depends on their level. I still favour the old Mr/Mrs/no
: nicknames style.
: > I would feel awkward if someone much below me would call me by
: my first name.
: You don't really think your title or social status can make you any
: _better_, do you?
:
Not really better, but still, in the U.S. people are not equal; there are
people above you and there are people below you.
: Then, what do you mean - "below"? Less money, less power, smaller muscle,
: or what?
Lower social class, less education, and less money.
: --
M. Papisov
In article <5q8ncc$o...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
Velikovich) wrote:
> Well, suppose a guy in his fifties works for someone in his thirties.
> Does that authorize him to call his boss (much younger than him)
Vovchik?
Yes, if Vovchik is not an idiot and not a maniac. "Vovchik" in your
example is an overkill, though. But "Volodja" would do OK.
> I think that even when the two of them have an informal lunch,
pet names
> are still not pronounced.
Then Vovchik is either an idiot or a maniac, or the other one suffers from
a complex of inferiority.
> And in no way would a member of the Russian government call himself by
> a nickname in public. The American tradition of calling
political leaders
> by their nicknames started from James "Jimmy" Carter.
That's right, but you are talking about public figures. They invent and
use whatever codes of behavior that fit their political objectives. It's a
totally different story. Russia, bu the way, knows very similar examples.
Remember when Peter the Great renaimed himself from "your majesty" to
"herr Piter" and why?
> : > Also, why do you think the popular jokes are about
Pet'ka and
> : > Vasiliy Ivanovich, not about Pet'ka and Vas'ka?
>
> : Did I say that Russian culture suggests calling each other
this way??
>
> You implied that it is OK to call each other by nicknames and
first names.
No I did not.
> : Regarding the jokes: just because they become easier to
understand. If you
> : a going to tell a joke about The Boss and his junior sidekick,
you better
> : find a way to explain it before you start telling the joke.
For a Russian,
> : these names explain the situation perfectly. This particular
situation
> : involves not only the names, but a reference to well known movie
> : characters. Try telling the same joke about, say, Sergej
Petrovich and
> : Shurka - what do you get? Funny?
>
> Well, in this situation the boss has 2 names and the junior
sidekick is called
> by a nickname. That is how it is supposed to be!
It WAS supposed to be that way at THAT time and among the members of THAT
cultural/social level. They simply copied what they knew: the greetings of
master and slave. Imagine a university professor calling his assistant
"Pet'ka" - how about that?
> And these jokes are ABOUT these two movie characters -- not just
any two
> people who have the same relationship as those.
The jokes are never funny if they are about two particular people and
nothing else.
> Well, how will you call your professor? Dr. Smith or just Bill?
> How will you call a minister? Rev. Jones or just Joe?
You better ask your american friends how to handle professors and reverends.
> Titles are very important. In the U.S., they are not as
important as in
> England, France, or other countries with inherited titles, but
still, you
> won't hurt anyone by calling him by his title.
It dependes. Sometimes you would hurt someone, sometimes you would hurt
yourself. The bottom line is, if you call someone by title, you emphasize
that your relationship with him/her are purely functional, and it is not
always appropriate.
> So? My system administrator has a very long and hard to
pronounce Chinese name that he won't change, and I interact with him every
day. Do I have any
> alternative to attempting to pronounce his name correctly?
Yes. Keep it simple. You can say him that he is calling you by a short
name and this is OK, but you would alsdo like to use some short version of
his name, because every time you try to use his full name you think that
you can't make it right anyway.
> : You don't really think your title or social status can make you any
> : _better_, do you?
> :
>
> Not really better,
"not really better" or "not better"?
> but still, in the U.S. people are not equal; there are
> people above you and there are people below you.
People ARE equal, their social status is not. At least, that's the idea.
> : Then, what do you mean - "below"? Less money, less power,
smaller muscle,
> : or what?
>
> Lower social class, less education, and less money.
Today you are a "big boss", tommorrow you are in jail. Today you are a
student, tomorrow you are a professor, next week you are fired. Today you
wash dishes, tomorrow you are a stock brocker. Today you are the best
educated expert in your field, tomorrow nobody needs your field and you
are unemployed. Will you every time calculate who is "above" and who is
"below"?
Uspehov™
MP
Jonathan Jones
In soc.culture.russian M. Papisov <mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> wrote:
-> Today you are a "big boss", tommorrow you are in jail. Today you are a
-> student, tomorrow you are a professor, next week you are fired. Today you
-> wash dishes, tomorrow you are a stock brocker. Today you are the best
-> educated expert in your field, tomorrow nobody needs your field and you
-> are unemployed. Will you every time calculate who is "above" and who is
-> "below"?
Well, yes. Isn't it obvious? Or is "sucking up" distinctively a practice
of native-born Americans?
Thanks,
Jon J.
A&M '97
Sergei N. Tsivunin
Dear Sir,
tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
: The original post referred to a 3 year old
: girl who will be coming to live in the US. While I think the name Lyubov
: is nice, my concern was for the difficluty over the years using that name
: in US culture. I'm currently considering additional names frequently used
: in Russia (Larissa, Katrina, etc.)
If you yourself admit that Lyubov may present "difficluty" in US culture,
why bother with Larissa, Katrina etc? Why not call the poor child
something like JoBeth which would allow her to fit right in? If she is
three now, how much of her Russian culture and heritage would survive in
America (not that she would have any at this age, besides her name)? In
two years' time she would be watching Alladin, Lion King and such like
contributions of other cultures (Persian and Japanese, in this case),
adapted so that they do not pose any "difficluty" in US culture and
believe that anyone with a permanent idiotic grin on their faces, speaking
loudly in American accents are "good" and anyone with an English accent is
"bad".
Sorry, no disrespect for my educated and considerate American friends.
Boris Velikovich
M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
: In article <5q8ncc$o...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
: Velikovich) wrote:
: > Well, suppose a guy in his fifties works for someone in his thirties.
: > Does that authorize him to call his boss (much younger than him)
: Vovchik?
: Yes, if Vovchik is not an idiot and not a maniac. "Vovchik" in your
: example is an overkill, though. But "Volodja" would do OK.
Why is it an overkill? "Vovchik" is an informal form of "Vova" or "Volodja,"
which are informal forms of "Vladimir." Just like "Jimmy" is an informal form
of "Jim," which, in turn, is an informal form of "James." But Jimmy is a legiti-mate name in the U.S. -- take Jimmy Carter, for instance. Why then Vovchik
won't do?
Also, have you ever heard about such term as "power distance"? There is a
tendency for bosses to put some distance between themselves and their subordinates; how big this distance is is characterized by the power distance. In some
countries (e.g. India and Mexico) power distance is huge; in some (like the
U.S. and Canada) it is relatively short. But still, it is exists. In
Russia, it is more pronounced than in the U.S. Therefore, it would be awkward
for the subordinate to call his boss so informally.
: > I think that even when the two of them have an informal lunch,
: pet names
: > are still not pronounced.
: Then Vovchik is either an idiot or a maniac, or the other one suffers from
: a complex of inferiority.
See my notes above about power distance.
The Russian language is very convenient because it has patronymics; you will
never be wrong when you address another person by name and patronymic. Using
first names only, though, can be risky if you two are not on the same level
or don't know each other very well.
: > And in no way would a member of the Russian government call himself by
: > a nickname in public. The American tradition of calling
: political leaders
: > by their nicknames started from James "Jimmy" Carter.
: That's right, but you are talking about public figures. They invent and
: use whatever codes of behavior that fit their political objectives. It's a
: totally different story. Russia, bu the way, knows very similar examples.
: Remember when Peter the Great renaimed himself from "your majesty" to
: "herr Piter" and why?
:
Right, but still, in the U.S. they have their own customs that seem funny to
people from other cultures. In no other state the head of the state is
addressed by his/her nickname. Is it because people in the U.S. are so egalitarian, or something else?
: > : > Also, why do you think the popular jokes are about
: Pet'ka and
: > : > Vasiliy Ivanovich, not about Pet'ka and Vas'ka?
: >
: > : Did I say that Russian culture suggests calling each other
: this way??
: >
: > You implied that it is OK to call each other by nicknames and
: first names.
: No I did not.
I thought you did. When do you think nicknames and first names are not appropriate?
: > : Regarding the jokes: just because they become easier to
: understand. If you
: > : a going to tell a joke about The Boss and his junior sidekick,
: you better
: > : find a way to explain it before you start telling the joke.
: For a Russian,
: > : these names explain the situation perfectly. This particular
: situation
: > : involves not only the names, but a reference to well known movie
: > : characters. Try telling the same joke about, say, Sergej
: Petrovich and
: > : Shurka - what do you get? Funny?
: >
: > Well, in this situation the boss has 2 names and the junior
: sidekick is called
: > by a nickname. That is how it is supposed to be!
: It WAS supposed to be that way at THAT time and among the members of THAT
: cultural/social level. They simply copied what they knew: the greetings of
: master and slave. Imagine a university professor calling his assistant
: "Pet'ka" - how about that?
In Russia, it is not possible; most likely, the professor's assistant will
be called Pet'a, not Pet'ka.
In the U.S., however, everything is possible.
: > And these jokes are ABOUT these two movie characters -- not just
: any two
: > people who have the same relationship as those.
: The jokes are never funny if they are about two particular people and
: nothing else.
Well, Pet'ka and Vasiliy Ivanovich are two well-known movie characters and
they have certain personality features that make us laugh and expect more jokes
about them.
: > Well, how will you call your professor? Dr. Smith or just Bill?
: > How will you call a minister? Rev. Jones or just Joe?
: You better ask your american friends how to handle professors and reverends.
Oh, really? You never saw any on your own???
I don't know how professors are called in Harvard; in U. of MD, they are called
"Dr Such-and-Such," or "Professor Such-and-Such."
: > Titles are very important. In the U.S., they are not as
: important as in
: > England, France, or other countries with inherited titles, but
: still, you
: > won't hurt anyone by calling him by his title.
: It dependes. Sometimes you would hurt someone, sometimes you would hurt
: yourself. The bottom line is, if you call someone by title, you emphasize
: that your relationship with him/her are purely functional, and it is not
: always appropriate.
Why not? If you call someone by title, you in fact say, "I respect you and
your title."
: > So? My system administrator has a very long and hard to
: pronounce Chinese name that he won't change, and I interact with him every
: day. Do I have any
: > alternative to attempting to pronounce his name correctly?
: Yes. Keep it simple. You can say him that he is calling you by a short
: name and this is OK, but you would alsdo like to use some short version of
: his name, because every time you try to use his full name you think that
: you can't make it right anyway.
Why do you think he would change his name for others? People usually change
something about them for themselves, not for others.
: > : You don't really think your title or social status can make you any
: > : _better_, do you?
: > :
: >
: > Not really better,
: "not really better" or "not better"?
Not better.
: > but still, in the U.S. people are not equal; there are
: > people above you and there are people below you.
: People ARE equal, their social status is not. At least, that's the idea.
I agree.
: > : Then, what do you mean - "below"? Less money, less power,
: smaller muscle,
: > : or what?
: >
: > Lower social class, less education, and less money.
: Today you are a "big boss", tommorrow you are in jail. Today you are a
: student, tomorrow you are a professor, next week you are fired. Today you
: wash dishes, tomorrow you are a stock brocker. Today you are the best
: educated expert in your field, tomorrow nobody needs your field and you
: are unemployed. Will you every time calculate who is "above" and who is
: "below"?
You are right, things change. However, changes are more often an exception
than a rule. A redneck is most likely be to a redneck all his life. A CEO
is most likely to be affluent all his life. It is unlikely that they will
swap their roles.
: Uspehov™
Boris Velikovich
Sergei N. Tsivunin (at...@torfree.net) wrote:
: Dear Sir,
: tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
: : The original post referred to a 3 year old
: : girl who will be coming to live in the US. While I think the name Lyubov
: : is nice, my concern was for the difficluty over the years using that name
: : in US culture. I'm currently considering additional names frequently used
: : in Russia (Larissa, Katrina, etc.)
: If you yourself admit that Lyubov may present "difficluty" in US culture,
: why bother with Larissa, Katrina etc? Why not call the poor child
: something like JoBeth which would allow her to fit right in?
The name Katrina is not Russian; in Russian, this name's equivalent is
Ekaterina. Frankly, I don't understand why the name Lyuba is worse than
Larissa or Katrina, but if the author believes this name is difficult for
Americans to pronounce, he is free to find an English equivalent, like
Amy, Linda, or Love (the latter name does exist, but is used almost exclusi-
vely by African Americans.)
If she is
: three now, how much of her Russian culture and heritage would survive in
: America (not that she would have any at this age, besides her name)?
Depends on her parents entirely. If they take time to teach her her native
language and talk to her only in Russian and make sure she learns the beauty
of the Russian culture, her Russian culture and heritage will survive.
In our age when knowing foreign languages does make a huge difference, many
people pay lots of money to learn Russian. It is a shame to discard this
built-in skill for EVERY person born in Russia.
In
: two years' time she would be watching Alladin, Lion King and such like
: contributions of other cultures (Persian and Japanese, in this case),
Alladin is actually an Arabic tale (from "Arabic Nights").
: adapted so that they do not pose any "difficluty" in US culture and
: believe that anyone with a permanent idiotic grin on their faces, speaking
: loudly in American accents are "good" and anyone with an English accent is
: "bad".
By "English" you mean "British"?
And yes, many Americans don't know much about other cultures and the contribution of these cultures to the American culture; for them, all good things happen
in the U.S. only (I heard of Americans who seriously stated that Jesus was
an English-speaking American!)
Boris
: Sorry, no disrespect for my educated and considerate American friends.
Igor Kostarnov
: John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: My objection to translating names is one of a professional translator.
: Such practice would lead to most incongruous renderings of proper names:
: John Woodgate would become in Russian Vanya Derevyannye Vorota etc. I
: maintain that if a person is proud of his heritage, he would never corrupt
: his name.
: The fact that foreigners cannot pronounce some Russian names reflects
: poorly on those foreigners. An educated and considerate foreigner would
: always make an honest attempt to pronounce your name and the result, no
: matter how corrupted, would always be better than making a travesty of
: your own name.
Actually, there is a tendency to preserve spelling as much as possible (i.e.
obviously the letters should be English if you translate into English but
the name may be read according to some strange rules somewhat borrowed
from Russian or whatever language) while the pronunciation is changed to
make it more natural for the language the name 'translated' into.
And also there are a set of names which already have standard translations well
known from literature (like Alice(Engl.) = Alisa (Russian) etc.) So it is probably
a good idea to look up literature first (although George and George IV would be
translated into Russian two absolutely different ways, just to make things worse).
Yours,
Igor.
--
__________________________________________________________
Igor Kostarnov tel: +44-117-9228197
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories fax: +44-117-9228925
Filton Road telnet: 312-8197
Stoke Gifford
Bristol BS12 6QZ e-mail: i...@hpl.hp.com
United Kingdom i...@hpl.hp.co.uk
http://hplbwww.hpl.hp.com/people/iak/home.htm
http://www-acd.hpl.hp.com/ACDpeop/iak/iakhome.htm (HP internal only)
M. Papisov
In article <5qc2c3$j...@news.tamu.edu>, Jonathan Jones
<jjo...@twri.tamu.edu> wrote:
> In soc.culture.russian M. Papisov <mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> -> Today you are a "big boss", tommorrow you are in jail. Today
you are a
> -> student, tomorrow you are a professor, next week you are
fired. Today you
> -> wash dishes, tomorrow you are a stock brocker. Today you are
the best
> -> educated expert in your field, tomorrow nobody needs your
field and you
> -> are unemployed. Will you every time calculate who is "above"
and who is
> -> "below"?
>
> Well, yes. Isn't it obvious? Or is "sucking up" distinctively
a practice
> of native-born Americans?
I guess what matters is not the average practice (it's just a tradition,
after all), bit the percentage of deviations to the "sucking up" side from
the average. According to my observations, there is about the same
concentration of "smart guys" wherever you go... can't tell you the exact
statistical significance, though :)
Boris Velikovich
Igor Kostarnov (i...@hplb.hpl.hp.com) wrote:
: : John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: : My objection to translating names is one of a professional translator.
: : Such practice would lead to most incongruous renderings of proper names:
: : John Woodgate would become in Russian Vanya Derevyannye Vorota etc. I
: : maintain that if a person is proud of his heritage, he would never corrupt
: : his name.
: : The fact that foreigners cannot pronounce some Russian names reflects
: : poorly on those foreigners. An educated and considerate foreigner would
: : always make an honest attempt to pronounce your name and the result, no
: : matter how corrupted, would always be better than making a travesty of
: : your own name.
: Actually, there is a tendency to preserve spelling as much as possible (i.e.
: obviously the letters should be English if you translate into English but
: the name may be read according to some strange rules somewhat borrowed
: from Russian or whatever language) while the pronunciation is changed to
: make it more natural for the language the name 'translated' into.
: And also there are a set of names which already have standard translations well
: known from literature (like Alice(Engl.) = Alisa (Russian) etc.) So it is probably
: a good idea to look up literature first (although George and George IV would be
: translated into Russian two absolutely different ways, just to make things worse).
In my humble opinion, there are much more names in English than in Russian
(probably because English is spoken by much more people and in much more cultures
than Russian.) As a result, some English names just cannot be translated into
Russian. Try translating "Heather," for example. What about "Jessica" or
"Melissa"? All of these names have no Russian equivalent.
There are more names that are authentically English than those that are
authentically Russian. Most of Russian names are of Greek, Roman, or Hebrew
origin. Slavic names constitute a tiny minority. Such names have a clear
meaning to speakers of Slavic languages (as an example, I can cite such names
as Vladimir, Svetlana, Lyubov, Vsevolod, Ludmila, Vladislav) These are the
names that have virtually no equivalents in non-Slavic languages. Most others,
remembering their foreign origin, can be translated into other languages
successfully.
Boris
: Yours,
Anco S. Blazev
tgh...@attmail.com wrote:
: I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
: name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
: I find hard to believe.
: I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
My mother's official name was Liubov, but everyone called her Liuba, or
Liubka. I've tried to find an equivalent English name(s), but to no
avail. Let me know, if you come up with one.
Best regards,
Anco Blazev
PS. "Amy" sounds like such a clumsy attempt to equate Liubov --
phonetically and poetically speaking.
Jonathan Jones
In soc.culture.russian Sergei N. Tsivunin <at...@torfree.net> wrote:
-> In two years' time she would be watching Alladin, Lion King and such like
-> contributions of other cultures (Persian and Japanese, in this case),
-> adapted so that they do not pose any "difficluty" in US culture and
-> believe that anyone with a permanent idiotic grin on their faces, speaking
-> loudly in American accents are "good" and anyone with an English accent is
-> "bad".
Since when is Bill Clinton considered good?
Jonathan Jones
In soc.culture.russian Boris Velikovich <bo...@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
-> Right, but still, in the U.S. they have their own customs that seem funny to
-> people from other cultures. In no other state the head of the state is
-> addressed by his/her nickname. Is it because people in the U.S. are so
-> egalitarian, or something else?
Maybe indirectly, but there are really two reasons such a thing can
happen: (1) The person chooses to be addressed in an informal way so as to
make himself appear more familiar and understanding of the common people's
needs--that is, he emphasizes that he is just "an every day guy" who will
understand and pay attention to you and your problems. Make no mistake,
though, you wouldn't address the President directly as "Bill." Usual ways
of address are "Mr. President" or, less often, "Mr. Clinton."
(2) In contrast, I noticed with amusement that George Bush and the media
often referred to Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein as simply "Saddam," and used
the obviously wrong pronunciation rhyming with "atom." This practice was,
in my opinion, a deliberate token of disrespect. And well justified, I
might add.
-> I don't know how professors are called in Harvard; in U. of MD, they are called
-> "Dr Such-and-Such," or "Professor Such-and-Such."
Same here. In general, when you have a reason to stroke someone's ego
(e.g. he or she is responsible for grading your term paper) you pay them
the respect they've earned.
-> Why do you think he would change his name for others? People usually change
-> something about them for themselves, not for others.
People who are in a situtation in which their name must be pronounced by
lots of new people often consider simplifying it to avoid the hassle.
These aren't usually people who are especially proud of their name or
heritage. (Not to imply that they are ashamed of it; just that they don't
identify themselves by it.)
-> : People ARE equal, their social status is not. At least, that's the idea.
-> I agree.
The idea is equal opportunity, not equal results. You are free to fail.
Sincerely,
Jon J.
A&M '97
M. Papisov
In article <5qdbco$g...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
Velikovich) wrote:
> M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
> Why is it an overkill? "Vovchik" is an informal form of "Vova"
or "Volodja,"
> which are informal forms of "Vladimir." Just like "Jimmy" is an
informal form
> of "Jim," which, in turn, is an informal form of "James."
> But Jimmy is a legitimate name in the U.S. -- take Jimmy Carter,
for instance.
> Why then Vovchik won't do?
I am trying to find you cultural analogs rather than "exact" analogs.
> Also, have you ever heard about such term as "power distance"?
Never :)
> There is a tendency for bosses to put some distance between
themselves
> and their subordinates; how big this distance is is
characterized by the
> power distance. In some
> countries (e.g. India and Mexico) power distance is huge; in
some (like the
> U.S. and Canada) it is relatively short. But still, it is exists. In
> Russia, it is more pronounced than in the U.S. Therefore, it
would be awkward
> for the subordinate to call his boss so informally.
The scale of the distance depends not on the country, but on the the
degree of personal independence within certain social layer (as the Polish
used to say, there are three degrees of freedom: your own car, your own
home, your own opinion :). As you might have noticed, people who don't
depend on the "boss" very much would not call him by all his eleven names
and whatever titles he has all the time, even in Russia. People who have
nothing to loose also would not. Those who are either afraid of the "boss"
or hope to get some personal favors - those are exactly the guys who go
beyond all cultural averages. I hope you don't mix the "boss" - "sidekick"
and "teacher - student" relationships: these are two totally different
things (unfortunately, there are assholes among teachers who tend to mix
it, but it's a different problem).
> The Russian language is very convenient because it has
patronymics; you will
> never be wrong when you address another person by name and
patronymic. Using
> first names only, though, can be risky if you two are not on the
same level
> or don't know each other very well.
At the same level of WHAT again??
- Which is still different from addressing your boss formally in
non-formal situations. If he is _normal_, he still could be embarrased.
Unless you address _everybody_ that way. But then you can also embarass
other people who happen to have less than eleven names and no titles. And
that can often be an even bigger risk, if you prefer this way of thinking.
> Right, but still, in the U.S. they have their own customs that
seem funny to
> people from other cultures. In no other state the head of the
state is
> addressed by his/her nickname.
I's funny for as long as you don't understand the underlying culture.
But don't worry, if you do understand the culture, you can always find a
lot more funny things.
> Is it because people in the U.S. are so egalitarian, or
something else?
It's because they are more American ;)
> When do you think nicknames and first names are not appropriate?
> : > Well, how will you call your professor? Dr. Smith or
just Bill?
> : > How will you call a minister? Rev. Jones or just Joe?
>
> : You better ask your american friends how to handle professors
and reverends.
>
> Oh, really? You never saw any on your own???
Of course I didn't :)
I referred you to someone else just because _I_ would definitely call them
Bill and Joe, but I can't claim that it is exactly what the majority does.
I am talking about non-formal situations, of course.
> I don't know how professors are called in Harvard; in U. of MD,
they are called
> "Dr Such-and-Such," or "Professor Such-and-Such."
That's how students call them, but, again, student-teacher and
sidekick-boss are two totally different things.
> If you call someone by title, you in fact say, "I respect you and
> your title."
No. If you call someone by title, you say: "this your title reflects your
function, I expect you to perform this function, and I am not interested
in anything else at this time". This also suggests that you are going to
take care exclusively of your own function, so who the hell cares about
your respect. Unless "demonstrating respect" is a part of your function,
of course.
> : You can say him that he is calling you by a short
> : name and this is OK, but you would alsdo like to use some
short version of
> : his name, because every time you try to use his full name you
think that
> : you can't make it right anyway.
>
> Why do you think he would change his name for others? People
usually change
> something about them for themselves, not for others.
Well, then he is going to listen how you screw his Chinese name every
time. It's up to him, of course. But it does not hurt you to ask, or does
it?
> : Today you are a "big boss", tommorrow you are in jail. Today
you are a
> : student, tomorrow you are a professor, next week you are
fired. Today you
> : wash dishes, tomorrow you are a stock brocker. Today you are
the best
> : educated expert in your field, tomorrow nobody needs your
field and you
> : are unemployed. Will you every time calculate who is "above"
and who is
> : "below"?
>
> You are right, things change. However, changes are more often an
exception
> than a rule. A redneck is most likely be to a redneck all his
life. A CEO
> is most likely to be affluent all his life. It is unlikely that
they will
> swap their roles.
More likely they will go up and down the social ladder within a more
narrow range. But some of them will even swap their roles. Regardless of
the country. And many assholes who thought that their yesterday's "slaves"
would never become their masters get punished for their own stupidity more
frequently than you probably think. Many others don't, though. But this is
not the issue. The issue is: why should you be an asshole if you can be a
normal nice guy? Say, not because you are that f*ng liberal, just because
you are smart enough? :)
Uspehov™
Eugene Soukharnikov
On 14 Jul 1997 20:53:20 GMT, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris Velikovich)
wrote:
And who is that Mr. Vladimir. He is not alone -. Vladimir has a bunch
of Scandinavian and later German relatives - Valdemar, Waldemar,
Woldemar, Voldemar, etc. You can also *translate* Svjatoslav into
Nordic Helgi/Helga pair (Slavic *svit-swjat* - light, holiness, world,
etc. ≈ in German "heilig" plus ending -slav, element of early name, it
would approximate to the Greek - acles, like in Heracles - glory of
Hera, Svjatoslav - glory of light (or glory of the world), Svjatlana =
Svjatoslav in a skirt. Any combination of Lud - people, folk can be
mirrored to Norse and German folk and volk - like Volke Ruehe, pardon,
German defense minister. Any combination of - mil and mila are of
like, love, being liked.In Russian those names (like that Ludmila from
the Opera) are very rare, but in all other places from Czech Republics
and Slovakia to Croatia, all sorts off *lub-s* and *-milas* abound.
Actually, if you are armed with a bunch of good dictionaries - one
Russian and say Polish and maybe *Czech to check* the Russians, and a
few beers, you can figure out meaning of practically any Slavic name
(which are not numerous in Russian but there are tons of them in
Polish and Czech, which formed earlier). This meaning can be
absolutely useless though, like discovering that Rudolf , itself a
combination of old Slavic and a Goth roots, and means ... ahh Red
Wolf ). .
Евгений Сухарников
Eugene Soukharnikov
еs...@ici.net
John Woodgate
In article <5qe3k0$a...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, Boris Velikovich
<bo...@cs.umd.edu> writes
>In my humble opinion, there are much more names in English than in Russian
>(probably because English is spoken by much more people and in much more
>cultures
> than Russian.)
Also becuase English easily borrows words from other languages, being a
mixture of Romance and Germanic anyway. So we have Celtic names, such as
Gladys and Fiona, in wide use in England.
>As a result, some English names just cannot be translated into
>Russian. Try translating "Heather," for example.
No problem, Heather is a plant, Erica species or Calluna species,
especially Calluna vulgaris. Now, what is Calluna vulgaris called in
Russian? I am sure it grows there.
>What about "Jessica" or
>"Melissa"? All of these names have no Russian equivalent.
Jessica is believed to be of Hebrew origin, meaning 'God sees'.
Alternatively, it could be a double diminutive of the Celtic Janet,
which I suppose is Ivana in Russian. Melissa is of Greek origin and
means 'bee', 'honey' or even 'sweetness'. So there is a possibility of
translation.
>There are more names that are authentically English than those that are
>authentically Russian.
Yes, because English can certainly claim both Romance names and Germanic
names (but not all of either set are in common use).
>Most of Russian names are of Greek, Roman, or Hebrew
>origin. Slavic names constitute a tiny minority. Such names have a clear
>meaning to speakers of Slavic languages (as an example, I can cite such names
>as Vladimir, Svetlana, Lyubov, Vsevolod, Ludmila, Vladislav) These are the
>names that have virtually no equivalents in non-Slavic languages. Most others,
>remembering their foreign origin, can be translated into other languages
>successfully.
>
> Boris
>
--
John Woodgate
In article <5qemu5$m...@nntp02.primenet.com>, "Anco S. Blazev"
<w...@primenet.com> writes
sound very feminine to western ears. It does seem difficult to find a
western name that is similar both phonetically and in meaning.
M. Papisov
In article <g$JkxLAy1...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>, John Woodgate
<j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> A phonetic match didin't seem appropriate, because 'Lyubov' doesn't
> sound very feminine to western ears. It does seem difficult to find a
> western name that is similar both phonetically and in meaning.
I guess 'Luba' sounds even worse, so it definitely makes sense to
"translate" it somehow. By the way, there are two common diminutives for
'Lubov' in Russian, not one: Luba and Lusia. How about Lucy, Lucia, etc.?
Good Luck™, as always
MP
M. Papisov
In article <4fCiJFAc...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>, John Woodgate
<j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >As a result, some English names just cannot be translated into
> >Russian. Try translating "Heather," for example.
>
> No problem, Heather is a plant, Erica species or Calluna species,
> especially Calluna vulgaris. Now, what is Calluna vulgaris called in
> Russian? I am sure it grows there.
Remember, in some languages all nouns differ by gender? I can't explain
why exactly pens are females and pencils are males in Russian, but Heather
simply can't be a female name. Veresk (which is how Heather is called in
Russian) is male :)
Boris Velikovich
Eugene Soukharnikov (es...@ici.net) wrote:
: On 14 Jul 1997 20:53:20 GMT, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris Velikovich)
: wrote:
: >Igor Kostarnov (i...@hplb.hpl.hp.com) wrote:
: >: Sergei N. Tsivunin (at...@torfree.net) wrote:
: >: : Dear Sir,
: >
: >: : John Woodgate (j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: >
: >
: >: : My objection to translating names is one of a professional translator.
: >: : Such practice would lead to most incongruous renderings of proper names:
: >: : John Woodgate would become in Russian Vanya Derevyannye Vorota etc. I
: >: : maintain that if a person is proud of his heritage, he would never corrupt
: >: : his name.
: >
: >: : The fact that foreigners cannot pronounce some Russian names reflects
: >: : poorly on those foreigners. An educated and considerate foreigner would
: >: : always make an honest attempt to pronounce your name and the result, no
: >: : matter how corrupted, would always be better than making a travesty of
: >: : your own name.
: >
: >: Actually, there is a tendency to preserve spelling as much as possible (i.e.
: >: obviously the letters should be English if you translate into English but
: >: the name may be read according to some strange rules somewhat borrowed
: >: from Russian or whatever language) while the pronunciation is changed to
: >: make it more natural for the language the name 'translated' into.
: >
: >: And also there are a set of names which already have standard translations well
: >: known from literature (like Alice(Engl.) = Alisa (Russian) etc.) So it is probably
: >: a good idea to look up literature first (although George and George IV would be
: >: translated into Russian two absolutely different ways, just to make things worse).
: >
: >In my humble opinion, there are much more names in English than in Russian
: >(probably because English is spoken by much more people and in much more cultures
: > than Russian.) As a result, some English names just cannot be translated into
: >Russian. Try translating "Heather," for example. What about "Jessica" or
: >"Melissa"? All of these names have no Russian equivalent.
: >There are more names that are authentically English than those that are
: >authentically Russian. Most of Russian names are of Greek, Roman, or Hebrew
: >origin. Slavic names constitute a tiny minority. Such names have a clear
: >meaning to speakers of Slavic languages (as an example, I can cite such names
: >as Vladimir, Svetlana, Lyubov, Vsevolod, Ludmila, Vladislav) These are the
: >names that have virtually no equivalents in non-Slavic languages. Most others,
: >remembering their foreign origin, can be translated into other languages
: >successfully.
: >
: > Boris
: >
: >: Yours,
: And who is that Mr. Vladimir. He is not alone -. Vladimir has a bunch
: of Scandinavian and later German relatives - Valdemar, Waldemar,
: Woldemar, Voldemar, etc. You can also *translate* Svjatoslav into
: Nordic Helgi/Helga pair (Slavic *svit-swjat* - light, holiness, world,
: etc. ≈ in German "heilig" plus ending -slav, element of early name, it
: would approximate to the Greek - acles, like in Heracles - glory of
: Hera, Svjatoslav - glory of light (or glory of the world), Svjatlana =
: Svjatoslav in a skirt. Any combination of Lud - people, folk can be
: mirrored to Norse and German folk and volk - like Volke Ruehe, pardon,
: German defense minister. Any combination of - mil and mila are of
: like, love, being liked.In Russian those names (like that Ludmila from
: the Opera) are very rare, but in all other places from Czech Republics
: and Slovakia to Croatia, all sorts off *lub-s* and *-milas* abound.
Right, but still, these counterparts will have different roots.
: Actually, if you are armed with a bunch of good dictionaries - one
Boris Velikovich
M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
: In article <5qdbco$g...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
: Velikovich) wrote:
: > M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
:
: > Why is it an overkill? "Vovchik" is an informal form of "Vova"
: or "Volodja,"
: > which are informal forms of "Vladimir." Just like "Jimmy" is an
: informal form
: > of "Jim," which, in turn, is an informal form of "James."
: > But Jimmy is a legitimate name in the U.S. -- take Jimmy Carter,
: for instance.
: > Why then Vovchik won't do?
: I am trying to find you cultural analogs rather than "exact" analogs.
So? Still, you won't call Vovchik someone who is not your close friend and/or
is not a kid.
: > There is a tendency for bosses to put some distance between
: themselves
: > and their subordinates; how big this distance is is
: characterized by the
: > power distance. In some
: > countries (e.g. India and Mexico) power distance is huge; in
: some (like the
: > U.S. and Canada) it is relatively short. But still, it is exists. In
: > Russia, it is more pronounced than in the U.S. Therefore, it
: would be awkward
: > for the subordinate to call his boss so informally.
: The scale of the distance depends not on the country, but on the the
: degree of personal independence within certain social layer (as the Polish
: used to say, there are three degrees of freedom: your own car, your own
: home, your own opinion :). As you might have noticed, people who don't
: depend on the "boss" very much would not call him by all his eleven names
: and whatever titles he has all the time, even in Russia. People who have
: nothing to loose also would not. Those who are either afraid of the "boss"
: or hope to get some personal favors - those are exactly the guys who go
: beyond all cultural averages. I hope you don't mix the "boss" - "sidekick"
: and "teacher - student" relationships: these are two totally different
: things (unfortunately, there are assholes among teachers who tend to mix
: it, but it's a different problem).
So you imply that you call your boss by his title or by his eleven names,
but people outside of your reporting line only by their first names, right?
I thought in Russia they always use full names or titles while talking to senior people, and in the U.S. the power distance is so small that you can even call
your immediate boss by his nickname. Is the Amerikanization of Russia so
advanced that people are starting to use first names/nicknames in the same casesthey used to use full names/titles? I haven't been to Russia for a while, so I don't know...
: > The Russian language is very convenient because it has
: patronymics; you will
: > never be wrong when you address another person by name and
: patronymic. Using
: > first names only, though, can be risky if you two are not on the
: same level
: > or don't know each other very well.
: At the same level of WHAT again??
Well, if you work in the same company and have the same status; or, if your economical/social statuses are roughly the same.
: - Which is still different from addressing your boss formally in
: non-formal situations. If he is _normal_, he still could be embarrased.
: Unless you address _everybody_ that way. But then you can also embarass
: other people who happen to have less than eleven names and no titles. And
: that can often be an even bigger risk, if you prefer this way of thinking.
A bigger risk??? Why?? People with power and authority deserve to be respected.
: > Right, but still, in the U.S. they have their own customs that
: seem funny to
: > people from other cultures. In no other state the head of the
: state is
: > addressed by his/her nickname.
: I's funny for as long as you don't understand the underlying culture.
: But don't worry, if you do understand the culture, you can always find a
: lot more funny things.
Some other guy in his thread explained it quite well. It is "plain folks" propaganda.
Same things are going on in England; the new premier is Tony, not Anthony.
: > Is it because people in the U.S. are so egalitarian, or
: something else?
: It's because they are more American ;)
What is "more American"??? How can someone be more Russian, more German, or more American???? You either are or are not. You cannot be more or less so.
The U.S. has a paradoxical situation: on one side, it has a Puritan background
that causes gambling to be restricted, soft drugs to be prohibited, and
tycoons of porno industry (like Larry Flynt) to be prosecuted. On the other
side, people are often too egalitarian while talking to other people. In such
countries as Germany and France, first names are used not nearly as often.
: > When do you think nicknames and first names are not appropriate?
: > : > Well, how will you call your professor? Dr. Smith or
: just Bill?
: > : > How will you call a minister? Rev. Jones or just Joe?
: >
: > : You better ask your american friends how to handle professors
: and reverends.
: >
: > Oh, really? You never saw any on your own???
: Of course I didn't :)
: I referred you to someone else just because _I_ would definitely call them
: Bill and Joe, but I can't claim that it is exactly what the majority does.
: I am talking about non-formal situations, of course.
Well, in informal situations with my professors, I still called them by their
title, and they were not surprised.
: > I don't know how professors are called in Harvard; in U. of MD,
: they are called
: > "Dr Such-and-Such," or "Professor Such-and-Such."
: That's how students call them, but, again, student-teacher and
: sidekick-boss are two totally different things.
Why are they different?
: > If you call someone by title, you in fact say, "I respect you and
: > your title."
: No. If you call someone by title, you say: "this your title reflects your
: function, I expect you to perform this function, and I am not interested
: in anything else at this time". This also suggests that you are going to
: take care exclusively of your own function, so who the hell cares about
: your respect. Unless "demonstrating respect" is a part of your function,
: of course.
:
Demonstrating respect is a part of everyone's function.
: > : You can say him that he is calling you by a short
: > : name and this is OK, but you would alsdo like to use some
: short version of
: > : his name, because every time you try to use his full name you
: think that
: > : you can't make it right anyway.
: >
: > Why do you think he would change his name for others? People
: usually change
: > something about them for themselves, not for others.
: Well, then he is going to listen how you screw his Chinese name every
: time. It's up to him, of course. But it does not hurt you to ask, or does
: it?
Well, it does not, but if he keeps his Chinese name, he does it for a reason.
: > : Today you are a "big boss", tommorrow you are in jail. Today
Well, I am a normal nice guy, but I am opposed to anything liberal.
: Uspehov™
M. Papisov
In article <5qj0i5$a...@mimsy.cs.umd.edu>, bo...@cs.umd.edu (Boris
Velikovich) wrote:
> M. Papisov (mmi...@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu) wrote:
> : I am trying to find you cultural analogs rather than "exact"
analogs.
>
> So? Still, you won't call Vovchik someone who is not your close
friend and/or
> is not a kid.
No comments.
No I don't. I was telling you just the opposite.
Actually, if anything was implied is that you go "official" only in two
cases: you either fail to establish normal relationship with people, or
you don't want.
> I thought in Russia they always use full names or titles while
> talking to senior people
You overgeneralize your personal experience.
> and in the U.S. the power distance
> is so small that you can even call
> your immediate boss by his nickname.
You abuse the term "power distance". It's not that you call someone by
nickname _because_ the power distance is small.
> Is the Amerikanization of Russia so
> advanced that people are starting to use first names/nicknames in the
> same casesthey used to use full names/titles? I haven't been to
Russia
> for a while, so I don't know...
I guess it would be funny if I started explaining you that it has nothing
to do with "americanization".
> Well, if you work in the same company and have the same status;
So you work in a company, call your chief of divison "Dr. (Mr.) XXX", then
you get a promotion and start calling him "Bob"? Two weeks later he gets a
promotion, and you start calling him "Dr.(Mr.) XXX" again? I'd like to be
around to watch the rest of the show.
> or, if your economical/social statuses are roughly the same.
So you have to figure the statuses first. What is going to happen to you
if your calculation was wrong?
> : - Which is still different from addressing your boss formally in
> : non-formal situations. If he is _normal_, he still could be
embarrased.
> : Unless you address _everybody_ that way. But then you can also
embarass
> : other people who happen to have less than eleven names and no
titles. And
> : that can often be an even bigger risk, if you prefer this way
of thinking.
>
> A bigger risk??? Why?? People with power and authority deserve
to be respected.
Some people believe, you know, that people with power and authority
deserve to be respected only as much as everybody else.
> : > Is it because people in the U.S. are so egalitarian, or
> : something else?
>
> : It's because they are more American ;)
>
> What is "more American"??? How can someone be more Russian, more
German,
> or more American???? You either are or are not. You cannot be
more or less so.
You just wrote me something about "americanization" of Russia. What are we
going to do with it now? Russia can't become "more American", according to
your own theory, so what "americanization" you could be talking about.
> The U.S. has a paradoxical situation: on one side, it has a
Puritan background
> ... On the other
> side, people are often too egalitarian while talking to other people.
Not that I can anything paradoxical here.
> Well, in informal situations with my professors, I still called
them by their
> title, and they were not surprised.
I guess if you called them by their names they would not be surprised either.
> : student-teacher and
> : sidekick-boss are two totally different things.
>
> Why are they different?
Because the underlying relationships are different.
Roughly:
Your boss hires you to do some work for him/his company, he directs and
evaluates your work.
You or the government hires your teacher to train you. Your teacher
directs and evaluates your training.
> : If you call someone by title, you say: "this your title
reflects your
> : function, I expect you to perform this function, and I am not
interested
> : in anything else at this time". This also suggests that you
are going to
> : take care exclusively of your own function, so who the hell
cares about
> : your respect. Unless "demonstrating respect" is a part of your
function,
> : of course.
> :
>
> Demonstrating respect is a part of everyone's function.
There are many ways of demonstrating respect. But you are talking about
demonstrating respect to the title, which is a totally different thing.
> : Well, then he is going to listen how you screw his Chinese
name every
> : time. It's up to him, of course. But it does not hurt you to
ask, or does
> : it?
>
> Well, it does not, but if he keeps his Chinese name, he does it
for a reason.
Then if it does not, why don't you simply ask him what is the reason.
Maybe he has a whole theory like yours (then you're gonna have another
interesting story to tell us), maybe he simply didn't even think about it.
> Well, I am a normal nice guy, but I am opposed to anything liberal.
Then why don't you you call me Dr. Papisov next time? :)))))
Uspehov
MP
RY2...@homedefenders.com
> I need to determine if there is a common equivalent of the Russian female
> name Lyubov in English. A language guide I have equates it to Amy, which
> I find hard to believe.
> I also believe this person has a nickname Luba; any English for this?
>
> Thanks
> Tom
>
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