Is Life Really Better in Russian than in Ukraine?
Dmitry Gryaznov
Dan K. wrote:
>
> According to today's VOA report and recent remarks by Lebed and
> Rodionov life in Russia is anything but sweet. The VOA report follows:
[skipped - we all know that]
Dan, what does this info has to do with the subject of your post:
"Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?" ?
Yes, the info you quoted reiterates once again that life in Russia is
anything but sweet for most Russians. We all know that. And in
some important areas, like in military, it is dangerously worsening even
further. But that post of yours, despite the subject line, gives no
information whatsoever on whether life in Ukraine is any better or any
worse. Not to mention I see no point in such comparisons ("Your this and
that is bad! Thus, I am better!" :)), but even to make such a comparison
one needs the info on _both_ countries being compared. And, as you
surely understand, taking exclusively bad news from one side and comparing
them to exclusively not-so-bad news from the other side won't do.
The fact that some of your opponents use this technique is not an
excuse, don't you agree?
> It is in the Russian people's interest to have
> good neighborly relations with Ukraine so that a peaceful and trusting
> relationship can exist so that trade can develop and the people's lives
> can be improved.
I absolutely agree. And the same is true for Ukraine. And there could not
be any joy in bad news from either of them.
--
Sincerely, | VirusLab, Dr.Solomon's Software Ltd.
Dmitry O. Gryaznov | Alton House, Office Park, Gatehouse Way,
Senior Research Consultant | Aylesbury, Bucks HP19 3XU, United Kingdom
E-mail: gr...@dial.pipex.com | Tel: +44 (0)1296 318700
WWW: http://www.drsolomon.com | Fax: +44 (0)1296 318734
` d e m i g o d
In article <326387...@dial.pipex.com>,
>
>Dan K. wrote:
>>
>> According to today's VOA report and recent remarks by Lebed and
>> Rodionov life in Russia is anything but sweet. The VOA report follows:
>
>[skipped - we all know that]
>
>Dan, what does this info has to do with the subject of your post:
>"Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?" ?
>Yes, the info you quoted reiterates once again that life in Russia is
>anything but sweet for most Russians.
...[snip].......-I intentinally deleted some of your ravings for brevity.............
>> It is in the Russian people's interest to have
>> good neighborly relations with Ukraine so that a peaceful and trusting
>> relationship can exist so that trade can develop and the people's lives
>> can be improved.
>
>I absolutely agree. And the same is true for Ukraine. And there could not
>be any joy in bad news from either of them.
>
>--
>Sincerely,
> Dmitry O. Gryaznov
Dima, I should inform you about two things in order to save you from the
unnecessary anguish over communicating to an idiot and steady deterioration
of quality of life in your favored totalitarian state.
One thing - is that you will be wasting your breath explaining the obvious
to an imbecile. If you'd followed Dan's aricles, you'd known about his
mental inferiority and lock of potential to sensible/healthy analytical
thinking.
Another thing is - you must have missed the renaming the old 'USSR' into
Churkia. (According to my survey, majority (@70%) of netters would like
you to refer to this name).The name of Ukraine speaks for itself as the
outskirts of this country, so it would be redundant to rally for unity of
the same geographical region.
I hope my coments would help you to stay calm,
Polubog.
Dan K.
` d e m i g o d (Polubog) wrote:
> One thing - is that you will be wasting your breath explaining the obvious
> to an imbecile. If you'd followed Dan's aricles, you'd known about his
> mental inferiority and lock of potential to sensible/healthy analytical
> thinking.
Thank you Mr. Polubog for your compliments, as only a good Russian
chauvinist can give. ;-)
And now the words of wisdom from one with a "superior mentality" and full
of "sensible/healthy analytical thinking":
> Another thing is - you must have missed the renaming the old 'USSR' into
> Churkia. (According to my survey, majority (@70%) of netters would like
> you to refer to this name).The name of Ukraine speaks for itself as the
> outskirts of this country, so it would be redundant to rally for unity of
> the same geographical region.
Enough said, kha, kha, kha! :-)))))))))
> I hope my coments would help you to stay calm,
> Polubog.
Calm, I am rolling around the floor! kha, kha, kha, kha, kha, kha, kha............
Dan K.
Dan K.
> >Dan K. wrote:
> >> According to today's VOA report and recent remarks by Lebed and
> >> Rodionov life in Russia is anything but sweet. The VOA report follows:
> >[skipped - we all know that]
Actually not, as the conditions described in the report state almost
word for word conditions which some Russians have used in arguing
that life was so much better in Russia than in Ukraine.
My point is, is that life economically may be worse for most people
in all of the NIS countries including Russia,
but that in the non Russian countries this is balanced out
by the great freedoms which have been garnered after the
collapse of Soviet Russian colonialism. Ukrainians, Balts, Central Asians
and Jews can at least now rebuild their houses of worship and go to church
without freedom of it hindering their careers, they can now freely and openly
love their countries as only the Russians could do before, they can now
do art and literature and music in their own languages and develop their
own cultures which they were forbidden to do under Russian colonial rule.
They can now study and learn thier own history which before was rewritten
to serve their colonial masters, they can now study and travel abroad
which before they could not do, they can now buy products from the West and
East which before were unavailable, they can now get all kinds of information
from the West which before was forbidden, they can now own a typewriter or
computer or photocopier which before was controlled by the Soviet Russian
occupiers and I could go on and on.
> >Dan, what does this info has to do with the subject of your post:
> >"Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?" ?
> >Yes, the info you quoted reiterates once again that life in Russia is
> >anything but sweet for most Russians.
As stated above, some, specifically Mr. Luchin among others, presented
"arguments" based on statements similar to the VOA article to show that
life in Ukraine was very bad and life in Russia was very good. This
article refutes those arguments and gives support to my thesis that life
in Russia is not better than in Ukraine. Moreover, there are some in both
countries that have it better and many that have it worse economically.
But as I have said before, most people that I have talked with from Ukraine
are optimistic about the future and concerned about their northern neighbor.
They also greatly appreciate the freedom which they have gained with indepence
and they do want good relations with Russia and would like Russia to get
out of Crimea and Sevastopil and give up the false claims which some harbor
against Ukrainian territory.
> >I absolutely agree. And the same is true for Ukraine. And there could not
> >be any joy in bad news from either of them.
Good relations based on mutual respect and honest and equitable trade relations
will IMO help them turn bad news into good news. The Russians must give up
their chauvinism and imperialistic dreams and attitudes for this to happen.
> >--
> >Sincerely,
> > Dmitry O. Gryaznov
Regards, Dan K.
Alexander Luchin
>My point is, is that life economically may be worse for most people
>in all of the NIS countries including Russia,
>but that in the non Russian countries this is balanced out
>by the great freedoms which have been garnered after the
>collapse of Soviet Russian colonialism.
Democracy has to be based on economy, if economy is not working, if
people's living conditions are decreasing, if people's lived better
(materially) in the past, people are not going to be happy with democracy,
people will long for "good old times when they didn't have much political
freedoms, but when life was better and safer, and the success of
communists on the last elections in Ukraine in Russia shows that it's
really the case.
>Ukrainians, Balts, Central Asians
>and Jews can at least now rebuild their houses of worship and go to church
>without freedom of it hindering their careers, they can now freely and openly
>love their countries as only the Russians could do before, they can now
>do art and literature and music in their own languages and develop their
>own cultures which they were forbidden to do under Russian colonial rule.
Religion was suppressed all over the Soviet Union, including Russia, so
it wasn't something "russians" suppressed exclusively in Ukraine or Baltics.
AS for language being forbidden, I don't know what you're talking about,
because in Ukraine, and it was true for other republics, there was
education in Ukrainian available, it was mandatory to study ukrainian
language and literature even in russian schools, there were a lot of books
in Ukrainian available in libraries and bookstores (actusally it was much
easier to buy a good book in ukrainian than in russian), there was
ukrainian TV, ukrainian music, ukrainian art etc.
I'm not going to argue thoug that native languages and cultures of the
republics were not suppressed at all, they were suppressed, at different
extent during different periods, but it was far from being forbidden as
you write.
Russian culture also was damaged by communists, if you remember how many
russian writers had to leave the country, were killed or imprisoned, or
didn't have a possibility to write what they wanted (or if they did
couldn't publish their works).
As for middle asia- yeah, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tadgikistan are now
enjoying the substantioal freedom. For example, Turkmens are free, for
sure, to glorify their Turkmenbashi:-)
>They can now study and learn thier own history which before was rewritten
>to serve their colonial masters, they can now study and travel abroad
>which before they could not do, they can now buy products from the West and
>East which before were unavailable, they can now get all kinds of information
>from the West which before was forbidden, they can now own a typewriter or
>computer or photocopier which before was controlled by the Soviet Russian
>occupiers and I could go on and on.
Unfortunately Dan, an avarage Ukrainians can't do it now- they can't buy
computer, photocopier, products from West because they can't afford that.
>As stated above, some, specifically Mr. Luchin among others, presented
>"arguments" based on statements similar to the VOA article to show that
>life in Ukraine was very bad and life in Russia was very good. This
>article refutes those arguments and gives support to my thesis that life
>in Russia is not better than in Ukraine.
I never worte that life in Russia is perfect, life in Russia is hard for
ordinary people, but it's still better than life in Ukraine, and I base
this conclusion on my personal experience as well.
Alex.
Dimitri Ostapenko
>> Is Life Really Better in Russian than in Ukraine?
Yes it is.
I've been there, I've seen things and I can tell you that - yes life in
Russia is still much better then in Ukraine. Average russian worker
makes 3-5 times more than worker doing the same job in Ukraine. Maybe
this is the big news for you and the like, but true ukrainians, speaking
true language and living in newly independent, though still suffering
Ukraine all know that.
I've been to Kharkov, where people had to walk home from work because
all trolleybus drivers went to nearest russian city of Belgorod to make
some russian roubles because they were worth much more than ukrainian
coupons.
I've been to Moscow and I've seen crowds of my countrymen trying to sell
meat, fruits and vegetables right at the square near Kiev station. They
had to buy an expensive ticket from profiteers for a questionable
privilege to spend a night in overcrowded and unsanitary train car, just
to be able to make some roubles in the morning and come back to Ukraine
next day.
Yes I personally know many people who immigrated to Russia, because life
is better there.
I lived there for 35 years and I don't have to come up with all sorts of
stupid ideas which have nothing in common with reality.
There's no need to be an ostrich, really.
Pardon my English - I'm still new immigrant, I came from Ukraine (Kiev),
just like probably your parents and relatives did long time ago - in
search of a better life.
Dmitri Ostapenko (Ukrainian by both parents)
CAD/CAM Designer
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
(P.S. If you don't know something - just ask smbdy who does. There's no
need to invent real history. BTW, my father graduated from Kiev
university back in 1956 (mech. math.) Guess what? All the lectures were
in Ukrainian).
Dan K.
In article <54307d$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Alexander Luchin wrote:
>Date: 16 Oct 1996 15:50:05 GMT
>In article <326457...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. wrote:
>>My point is, is that life economically may be worse for most people
>>in all of the NIS countries including Russia,
>>but that in the non Russian countries this is balanced out
>>by the great freedoms which have been garnered after the
>>collapse of Soviet Russian colonialism.
>Democracy has to be based on economy,
I don't know what schools you have been going to Luchin,
but you have not been getting a very good education, neither in
history nor in economics nor in social sciences. Democracy is not
based on economics, it is based on the desire of people to
be free and to govern themselves. Economics is the study of
various types of economic systems. In a democracy people are
free to create or change an economic system or model to suit
their needs.
>if economy is not working, if
>people's living conditions are decreasing, if people's lived
> better (materially) in the past, people are not going to be happy
> with democracy,
>people will long for "good old times when they didn't have
> much political
>freedoms, but when life was better and safer,
Better and safer for whom? The Russians murdered between
7 and 10 million Ukrainian farmers, priests and intellectuals during
the early thirties because they wanted to be free independent farmers
and because they loved their country and way of life, was life better and
safer for them Luchin?
>and the success of communists on the last elections in Ukraine in Russia shows
> that it's really the case.
Most of those who voted for the Communists in Ukraine were the
remnants of the Russian colonists who were sent to Ukraine to
populate Ukraine after the mass murders perpetrated by the
Soviet Russian regime. We've already gone over this Luchin,
why do you keep wanting to hear it over and over?
>>Ukrainians, Balts, Central Asians
>>and Jews can at least now rebuild their houses of worship
>> and go to church
>>without freedom of it hindering their careers, they can now freely and openly
>>love their countries as only the Russians could do before, they can now
>>do art and literature and music in their own languages and develop their
>>own cultures which they were forbidden to do under Russian colonial rule.
>Religion was suppressed all over the Soviet Union, including
> Russia, so it wasn't something "russians" suppressed exclusively in
> Ukraine or Baltics.
What the Russians did in their own country to their own people is their
internal affair, what they did to the Ukrainians and Balts is akin to what
the Nazis did to the Jews and all the peoples they invaded.
>AS for language being forbidden, I don't know what you're talking about,
>because in Ukraine, and it was true for other republics, there was
>education in Ukrainian available, it was mandatory to study ukrainian
>language and literature even in russian schools,
No wonder Mr. Rycar detests you Luchin, you have no moral integrity.
Even in the West people were informed very well about the Russification
of the non Russian nations in the FSU. How the Russians made a show of
supporting multiculturalism but forced Russian down everyone's throat literally.
When I visited a book show in Frankfurt in the early eightys I visited the Soviet
exhibition. All of the books were in Russian so I asked one of the Soviets there
why there weren't any books in any of the other languages of the USSR. The
Soviet said yes there were lots of books in other languages as well, so I asked to
see a book in Ukrainian, he hunted all over and finally found ONE book in Ukrainian
and said see we have books in Ukrainian, all the other thousands of books
were in Russian. Your reasonings Luchin are like that scumbag Soviet's.
When I was in Ukraine during the mid 70s I searched for books in
Ukrainian and they were extremely hard to find. I asked friends why and they
told me that it was the Russian policy to push the use of the Russian language
at the expense of Ukrainian. The policy was the same throughout the FSU.
Thank God that Evil Empire is DEAD.
And why were there any Russian schools in Ukraine at all Luchin?
Who wanted the Russian schools there?
>there were a lot of books
>in Ukrainian available in libraries and bookstores (actusally
> it was much easier to buy a good book in ukrainian than in russian),
You speak with forked tongue Mr. Luchin!!!
> there was ukrainian TV, ukrainian music, ukrainian art etc.
It was all kept at a provincial level Luchin. And anyone that was too fond
of it was considered a Bourgois nationalist, or have you already forgotten
that term?
Have you ever heard of the Ukrainian premier by the name of
Shelest who was removed from power by Moscow because
he wrote a book that was too pro Ukrainian?
In Eastern Ukraine Ukrainian was not even understood by
the majority of people because they were Russians, I was there
Luchin and I saw it first hand especially in cities like Kharkiv
and Dnipropetrovsk. And why are these cities still Russian speaking today?
I would ask people simple things like directions
and they would just shrug and say, "ne panimaiu", "I don't understand"
so much for the little introductory Ukrainian they took in school.
>I'm not going to argue thoug that native languages and cultures of the
>republics were not suppressed at all, they were suppressed,
> at different extent during different periods, but it was far from being
> forbidden as you write.
Luchin, Luchin, when people are persecuted for using their native language,
ie, if you used it you did not get good jobs or promotions and were persecuted
and called a nationalist among other names, that language is esentially forbidden
because if you use it you are discriminated against severly. I travelled all over
Ukraine during Soviet times and that is what Ukrainians from all walks of life
told me. Yes, you could speak Ukrainian all you wanted if you didn't aspire to
anything more than being a collective farm worker.
>Russian culture also was damaged by communists, if you remember how many
>russian writers had to leave the country, were killed or imprisoned, or
>didn't have a possibility to write what they wanted (or if they did
>couldn't publish their works).
That is not the same as being persecuted for using a particular language
as was done in Ukraine not only in Soviet times but also in Czarist times.
But thank God that is all in the past, isn't it wonderful?
>As for middle asia- yeah, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tadgikistan are now
>enjoying the substantioal freedom. For example, Turkmens are free, for
>sure, to glorify their Turkmenbashi:-)
>>They can now study and learn thier own history which before was rewritten
>>to serve their colonial masters, they can now study and travel abroad
>>which before they could not do, they can now buy products from the West and
>>East which before were unavailable, they can now get all kinds of information
>>from the West which before was forbidden, they can now own a typewriter or
>>computer or photocopier which before was controlled by the Soviet Russian
>>occupiers and I could go on and on.
>Unfortunately Dan, an avarage Ukrainians can't do it now-they can't buy
>computer, photocopier, products from West because they can't
> afford that.
Luchin, Luchin, many Ukrainians are buying computers, typewriters
and other Western and Eastern products today, I understand that
you may not like that, but that is too bad. But even for those who
can not afford a computer today, at least they can dream of some day
getting one because at least it is no longer against the law for them to
own one. Do you get it now Mr. Luchin?
>>As stated above, some, specifically Mr. Luchin among others, presented
>>"arguments" based on statements similar to the VOA article to show that
>>life in Ukraine was very bad and life in Russia was very good. This
>>article refutes those arguments and gives support to my thesis that life
>>in Russia is not better than in Ukraine.
>I never worte that life in Russia is perfect, life in Russia is hard for
>ordinary people, but it's still better than life in Ukraine, and I base
>this conclusion on my personal experience as well.
But it is not better than life in Ukraine according to Mr. Lebed and
Defense Minister Rodionov and the VOA article and other articles which
I and others have posted. In fact according to them it seems to be
WORSE. At least I haven't heard about any Ukrainian soldiers about
to starve to death as Lebed reported is the case in Russia.
But if life is so much better in Russia as you believe then
Russians would be leaving Ukraine by the thousands but unfortunately
they are not. If the Russian Duma is so concerned about the Russians
in the near abroad then maybe they should offer them free land and jobs
in Russia so the poor Russians can go back to their motherland.
> Alex.
Regards, Dan K.
Dan K.
>>> Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?
In article <32683E...@interlynx.net> Dimitri Ostapenko wrote:
>Yes it is. I've been there, I've seen things and I can tell you that - yes life in
>Russia is still much better then in Ukraine.
So you did not see any starving Russian military? Then are you saying that
Lebed and Rodionov are liars? And is the VOA article also a propaganda
piece?
>Average russian
> worker makes 3-5 times more than worker doing the same job in
> Ukraine. Maybe this is the big news for you and the like, but true
> ukrainians, speaking true language and living in newly independent, though still
> suffering Ukraine all know that.
And are the living expenses also 3-5 times higher or are they more?
I've heard reports that Moscow now is one of the most
expensive cities in the world, is that ficticious propaganda?
To live well in Moscow one would need a lot more than 3-5 times
the wage of a Ukrainian worker.
>I've been to Kharkov, where people had to walk home from work because
>all trolleybus drivers went to nearest russian city of Belgorod to make
>some russian roubles because they were worth much more than ukrainian
>coupons.
Ukrainians no longer use coupons so you must be talking about something
in the distant past. Did the city of Kharkiv then hire new bus drivers or are
the people still walking? :-)
>I've been to Moscow and I've seen crowds of my countrymen trying to sell
>meat, fruits and vegetables right at the square near Kiev station.
Since the cost of living is so much higher in Moscow they can probably get
better prices for their products in Moscow than in Kyiv, so they are good
businessmen, no?
>They had to buy an expensive ticket from profiteers for a questionable
>privilege to spend a night in overcrowded and unsanitary train car, just
>to be able to make some roubles in the morning and come back to Ukraine
>next day.
Why don't the Russians keep their trains clean? I'm sure the Ukrainians were
making good money selling their produce otherwise they would not travel to
Moscow to sell their products.
>Yes I personally know many people who immigrated to Russia, because life
>is better there.
Good, why don't you move back there and work as an agent to get
more of the Russians to leave Ukraine for the good life in Russia.
>I lived there for 35 years and I don't have to come up with all sorts of
>stupid ideas which have nothing in common with reality.
>There's no need to be an ostrich, really.
>Pardon my English - I'm still new immigrant, I came from Ukraine (Kiev),
>just like probably your parents and relatives did long time search of a better life.
Most of the Ukrainians in the USA came to the States for political reasons
not to fill their bellies. Most of them did not want to leave Ukraine.
>Dmitri Ostapenko (Ukrainian by both parents)
>CAD/CAM Designer
>Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Dmitri, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write your name
like a Ukrainian, ie. Dmytro rather than like a Russian, Dmitri?
>(P.S. If you don't know something - just ask smbdy who does.
Good advice for everyone including yourself. :-)
> There's no need to invent real history.
You are right there, real history is interesting enough.
>BTW, my father graduated from Kiev university back in 1956 (mech. math.)
Good for him.
>Guess what? All the lectures were in Ukrainian).
Great, was that true in all universities in Ukraine? Were all of the
textbooks in Ukrainian as well? What percentage of books that the
students used in Ukrainian universities in the Ukrainian language?
Are all textbooks used in Ukraine today in the Ukrainian language?
Was Russification in Ukraine then a myth in your opinion?
Regards, Dan K.
Dan Korolev
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> writes:
>>>> Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?
>In article <32683E...@interlynx.net> Dimitri Ostapenko wrote:
>>Yes it is. I've been there, I've seen things and I can tell you that - yes life in
>>Russia is still much better then in Ukraine.
>So you did not see any starving Russian military? Then are you saying that
>Lebed and Rodionov are liars? And is the VOA article also a propaganda
>piece?
Dear namesake, is your skull REALLY as thick as you pretend it to be? How
many times do dozens of intelligent people have to repeat to you the same
thing: Yes, life in Russia is very poor, poor compared to, say,
Poland, Turkey, Argentina. THAT is why Lebed and Rodionov and
VOA are so concerned. And rightfully so. No, they are not liars. But
everything is relative. There ARE countries on this Planet that are much
worse off than even Russia: Rwanda, Ukraine, Somalia. Do you GET it now?
>>Average russian
>> worker makes 3-5 times more than worker doing the same job in
>> Ukraine. Maybe this is the big news for you and the like, but true
>> ukrainians, speaking true language and living in newly independent, though still
>> suffering Ukraine all know that.
>And are the living expenses also 3-5 times higher or are they more?
No.
>I've heard reports that Moscow now is one of the most
>expensive cities in the world, is that ficticious propaganda?
True. However, the average income of Moscovites is maybe 20 times higher
than of Ukrainians. On th eother hand, in Russian provinces, the prices
are the same as in Ukraine but incomes are 3 times higher.
>To live well in Moscow
>one would need a lot more than 3-5 times
>the wage of a Ukrainian worker.
And they do: about 20 times higher.
>>I've been to Kharkov, where people had to walk home from work because
>>all trolleybus drivers went to nearest russian city of Belgorod to make
>>some russian roubles because they were worth much more than ukrainian
>>coupons.
>Ukrainians no longer use coupons so you must be talking about something
>in the distant past. Did the city of Kharkiv then hire new bus drivers or are
>the people still walking? :-)
Yes, aren't these worthless "coupons" now called "hryvny"?
But what's in the name?
>>I've been to Moscow and I've seen crowds of my countrymen trying to sell
>>meat, fruits and vegetables right at the square near Kiev station.
>Since the cost of living is so much higher in Moscow they can probably get
>better prices for their products in Moscow than in Kyiv, so they are good
>businessmen, no?
>>They had to buy an expensive ticket from profiteers for a questionable
>>privilege to spend a night in overcrowded and unsanitary train car, just
>>to be able to make some roubles in the morning and come back to Ukraine
>>next day.
>Why don't the Russians keep their trains clean?
How do you know these were Russian trains and not Ukrainian? Are you
telling us that Ukraine doesnot even have any trains of their own? You
are a liar! Stop besmerching the (already bleak) Ukrainian economy.
>I'm sure the Ukrainians were
>making good money selling their produce otherwise they would not travel to
>Moscow to sell their products.
That's true. You get one point on your scoreboard.
>>Yes I personally know many people who immigrated to Russia, because life
>>is better there.
>Good, why don't you move back there and work as an agent to get
>more of the Russians to leave Ukraine for the good life in Russia.
Ooops, we are taking back that previous point from you: for demagoguery.
Your Ukrainian opponent made a valid point: that a lot of Ukrainians are
now moving to Russia because the standard of living there is not as low
as in Ukraine. You werer supposed to counter his argument. But you had
nothing to counter with. So, you started personal insults. " why don't
you move back there...". Well, if yuo thing that Ukraine is NOT in such
terrible state, why don't YOU move there and enjoy the life?
Moreover, the majority of those who emigrate from Ukraine to Russia are
UKRAINIANS, not Russians.
>>I lived there for 35 years and I don't have to come up with all sorts of
>>stupid ideas which have nothing in common with reality.
>>There's no need to be an ostrich, really.
>>Pardon my English - I'm still new immigrant, I came from Ukraine (Kiev),
>>just like probably your parents and relatives did long time search of a better life.
>Most of the Ukrainians in the USA came to the States for political reasons
>not to fill their bellies. Most of them did not want to leave Ukraine.
Maybe.
>Dmitri, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write your name
>like a Ukrainian, ie. Dmytro rather than like a Russian, Dmitri?
Dan, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write your name
like a Ukrainian, ie. Danylo?
>>BTW, my father graduated from Kiev university back in 1956 (mech. math.)
>Good for him.
>>Guess what? All the lectures were in Ukrainian).
>Great, was that true in all universities in Ukraine?
No. There were several Universities where lectures were in Russian,
French, English, German. Especially Russian, because about half of the
population of Ukraine was ether native Russian-speakers or Georgians,
Armenians, Moldovans etc., who knew Russian and didn't know
Ukrainian. Just as many schools in USA are now taught in Spanish.
But that's not the point. Your point was that Ukrainian language was
forbidden in Ukraine and Ukrainians had no place to study in hteir own
language. Your Ukrainian opponent disproved your lie by pointing out that,
for example, the most important University in all of Ukraine, Kyiv U.,
taught in Ukrainian. Stop demagoguery.
Alexander Luchin
>I don't know what schools you have been going to Luchin,
>but you have not been getting a very good education, neither in
>history nor in economics nor in social sciences. Democracy is not
>based on economics, it is based on the desire of people to
>be free and to govern themselves. Economics is the study of
>various types of economic systems. In a democracy people are
>free to create or change an economic system or model to suit
>their needs.
Then in Russia people were free to change their economic system to
socialism:-)
What I meant is that if political changes towards democracy are not
supported by economocal improvement democracy is not very likely to last
long. When people's lives are getting worse every day, when people are not
sure in the future, when people can hardly make ends meet, they are very
likely to support not democratic leaders, but those who promise quick
solution of people's problems, who promise to improve situation overnight,
who offers easy solutions and points on apparent and easy-to-get enemies
who are in charge of the woesening of situation (jews, chechens, russians,
americans etc), who promise to restore law and order with "tough measures".
It happened in Germany in 1933, in Chile in 1973 and as you see, this is
the reason of a success of communists in Ukraine and Russia.
>Better and safer for whom? The Russians murdered between
>7 and 10 million Ukrainian farmers, priests and intellectuals during
>the early thirties because they wanted to be free independent farmers
>and because they loved their country and way of life, was life better and
>safer for them Luchin?
There are 150 millions of russians. Do all of them participated in murders.
Did only russians participated in Stalin's repressions? Was Stalin russian?
Was Kaganovich russian? Was Beria russian? Was Yagoda russian.
Million of russian were murdered and died in concentration camps. What
about them?
>Most of those who voted for the Communists in Ukraine were the
>remnants of the Russian colonists who were sent to Ukraine to
>populate Ukraine after the mass murders perpetrated by the
>Soviet Russian regime. We've already gone over this Luchin,
>why do you keep wanting to hear it over and over?
If you mean russian-speaking Ukrainians, the majority of them were born in
Ukraine and therefore, regardless of the reason their ancestors came to
Ukraine, they have to have the same rights in Ukraine as ethnic Ukrinians
do.
BTW, Ukrainwe was part of Russia for over 300 years, and many russians
came to Ukraine a long time before the "october revolution".
BTW, communists got the majority of votes, so , if only "evil russians"
voted for them, then you should admit that russians are the majority in
Ukraine:-)
>No wonder Mr. Rycar detests you Luchin, you have no moral integrity.
>Even in the West people were informed very well about the Russification
>of the non Russian nations in the FSU. How the Russians made a show of
>supporting multiculturalism but forced Russian down everyone's throat literally.
>When I visited a book show in Frankfurt in the early eightys I visited the Soviet
>exhibition. All of the books were in Russian so I asked one of the Soviets there
>why there weren't any books in any of the other languages of the USSR. The
>Soviet said yes there were lots of books in other languages as well, so I asked to
>see a book in Ukrainian, he hunted all over and finally found ONE book in Ukrainian
>and said see we have books in Ukrainian, all the other thousands of books
>were in Russian. Your reasonings Luchin are like that scumbag Soviet's.
>When I was in Ukraine during the mid 70s I searched for books in
>Ukrainian and they were extremely hard to find. I asked friends why and they
>told me that it was the Russian policy to push the use of the Russian language
>at the expense of Ukrainian. The policy was the same throughout the FSU.
>Thank God that Evil Empire is DEAD.
I don't know where you went, but in Kharkov bookstores were full of books
in Ukrainian, one could easily find a good book in ukrainian (world
classics etc), which was quite a problem in russian.
Again, I didn't write that ukrainian culture was not suppressed, but the
things were not that black-and-white.
>And why were there any
>Russian
>schools in Ukraine at all Luchin? >Who wanted the Russian schools there?
Because there are russian-speakers there.
>>there were a lot of books
>>in Ukrainian available in libraries and bookstores (actusally
>> it was much easier to buy a good book in ukrainian than in russian),
>You speak with forked tongue Mr. Luchin!!!
>
I see.. Another Mr. Luchins "lie". Looks like in Dan's language "lie" is
something he doesn;'t like or does not agree with.
>It was all kept at a provincial level Luchin. And anyone that was too fond
>of it was considered a Bourgois nationalist, or have you already forgotten
>that term?
Here you are right, ukrainian TV was (as it is now) on a very low level,
nobody watched it except for the movies and cartoons.
>Have you ever heard of the Ukrainian premier by the name of
>Shelest who was removed from power by Moscow because
>he wrote a book that was too pro Ukrainian?
Of course I did.
>In Eastern Ukraine Ukrainian was not even understood by
>the majority of people because they were Russians, I was there
>Luchin and I saw it first hand especially in cities like Kharkiv
>and Dnipropetrovsk. And why are these cities still Russian speaking today?
I grew up in Kharkov, Eastern Ukraine, and I haven't met anybody who grew
up in Eastern Ukraine and didn't understand ukrainian. It was hard
actually, when learning ukrainian language and literature was mandatory.
How's that? Another lie of Mr. Luchin?
Cities speak russian (and they WILL speak russian), because for the people
there russian ia a native language and it is natural for people to speak
their native language.
>I
>would ask people simple things like directions
>and they would just shrug and say, "ne panimaiu", "I don't understand"
>so much for the little introductory Ukrainian they took in school.
It could've been a problem with your ukrainian Dan, not with their, since
you grew up in the States...
>>Russian culture also was damaged by communists, if you remember how many
>>russian writers had to leave the country, were killed or imprisoned, or
>>didn't have a possibility to write what they wanted (or if they did
>>couldn't publish their works).
>
>That is not the same as being persecuted for using a particular language
>as was done in Ukraine not only in Soviet times but also in Czarist times.
>But thank God that is all in the past, isn't it wonderful?
Agree. Soviet communists did a lot of terrible things, and it is great
that their tyrany is in the past. But I wouldn't like another kind of
tyrany to come, when peopel again would be prosecuted for the use of their
language.
>Luchin, Luchin, many Ukrainians are buying computers, typewriters
>and other Western and Eastern products today, I understand that
>you may not like that, but that is too bad.
I would like it, if it were true (why wouldn't I, I have close relatives
oand friends in Ukraine, of course I wan tthem to be wealthy),
unfortunately thye majority of ukrainians just can't afford all that (I
hope yet)
>
But even for those who
>can not afford a computer today, at least they can dream of some day
>getting one because at least it is no longer against the law for them to
>own one. Do you get it now Mr. Luchin?
Dream? Yeah, it's abig relief.
>Defense Minister Rodionov and the VOA article and other articles which
>I and others have posted. In fact according to them it seems to be
>WORSE.
Yeah, trust Lebed' and Rodionov :-) BTW, I haven't read any Lebed''s
statement about life in Russia being worse than in Ukraine.
>But if life is so much better in Russia as you believe then
>Russians would be leaving Ukraine by the thousands but unfortunately
>they are not.
Thouthand of Ukrainians go to work in Russia.
Alex.
Alexander Luchin
In article <326B03...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>
>So you did not see any starving Russian military? Then are you saying that
>Lebed and Rodionov are liars? And is the VOA article also a propaganda
>piece?
I wouldn't trust neither Lebed' or Rodionov very much. As for VOA reports,
they show that life in Russia is hard , but do not show that it is worse
then in Ukraine.
I live both in Ukraine and in Russia so I make conclusions from my own
experience. (I bet Dan will call it "lie" :-)
>And are the living expenses also 3-5 times higher or are they more?
>I've heard reports that Moscow now is one of the most
>expensive cities in the world, is that ficticious propaganda?
>To live well in Moscow one would need a lot more than 3-5 times
>the wage of a Ukrainian worker.
Actually, average wages in MOscow are higher then elsewhere in Russia.
>Since the cost of living is so much higher in Moscow they can probably get
>better prices for their products in Moscow than in Kyiv, so they are good
>businessmen, no?
Cost of leaving in the USA is much more higher. Conclusion- life in US is
worse in Ukraine..:-))
>Why don't the Russians keep their trains clean? I'm sure the Ukrainians were
>making good money selling their produce otherwise they would not travel to
>Moscow to sell their products.
Trains going from Kharkov and Kiev to MOscow are Ukrainian trains, by the way.
So, really, why ukrainians doen't keep their trains clean?:-)
Alex.
Michael J. Grossman
Yes it is.
Post Scriptuum for the Ukranian nationalists from Canada and the USA:
One does not have to be a "Stalinist", "Zionist", "Russian Chauvinist"
or else to note obvious hardships of people of the all of a sudden
indep. Ukraine.
M. J. Grossman. East Bridgewater,Mass.
Andrey Dmitriev
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> writes:
>
> Most of the Ukrainians in the USA came to the States for political reasons
> not to fill their bellies. Most of them did not want to leave Ukraine.
Oh, common. Everybody knows that whoever comes to US comes here for a better
life.
If they didn't want to leave Ukraine, they would've stayed. And since they
left for political reason, how come they are not returning now? They love Ukra
so much, so why not just come back :)
>
> >Dmitri Ostapenko (Ukrainian by both parents)
> >CAD/CAM Designer
> >Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
>
> Dmitri, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write your name
> like a Ukrainian, ie. Dmytro rather than like a Russian, Dmitri?
>
You know, if he likes it that way it should be the way he likes it. Don't
push your extremist ideas.
And about the living standards in Moscow.
Yeah, it IS the most expensive city in the WORLD for TRAVELERS.
Yeah, the prices might be higher that in Ukraine, but I am sure you'll be better
off living in Moscow, then in any cities of Ukraine.
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Dan K.
> > Most of the Ukrainians in the USA came to the States for political reasons
> > not to fill their bellies. Most of them did not want to leave Ukraine.
> Oh, common. Everybody knows that whoever comes to US comes here for a better
> life.
In the case of those Ukrainians who came during
and after WW II it was just for life itself.
> If they didn't want to leave Ukraine, they would've stayed.
And go to the Gulag or get shot back in the USSR?
Did you know that many Red Army soldiers who were captured by the
Germans were shot by the Russians after repatriation and many
were sent to Siberia?
> And since they
> left for political reason, how come they are not returning now?
>They love Ukra
>so much, so why not just come back :)
You must be a real idiot! But for those who truly don't know, after WW II
they made a new life in the West and have now retired and their kids are here
and they no longer have homes or lands in Ukraine or elsewhere. Remember,
the "nice" Russians confiscated all lands and collectivized them, or didn't
you know that?
> > Dmitri, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write your name
> > like a Ukrainian, ie. Dmytro rather than like a Russian, Dmitri?
> You know, if he likes it that way it should be the way he likes it. Don't
> push your extremist ideas.
Is that extremist to you?
> And about the living standards in Moscow.
> Yeah, it IS the most expensive city in the WORLD for TRAVELERS.
> Yeah, the prices might be higher that in Ukraine, but I am sure you'll be better
> off living in Moscow, then in any cities of Ukraine.
Would you say the same about Grozny, or Vorkuta, or Chita?
Dan K.
Dan K.
> >So you did not see any starving Russian military? Then are you saying that
> >Lebed and Rodionov are liars? And is the VOA article also a propaganda piece?
> I wouldn't trust neither Lebed' or Rodionov very much. As for VOA reports, they show that life in Russia is hard , but do not show that it is worse
then in Ukraine.
I live both in Ukraine and in Russia so I make conclusions from my own
> experience. (I bet Dan will call it "lie" :-)
So you visited Grozny and the Urals and Siberia as well or just the
better neighborhoods of Moscow and the worst areas of Ukraine?
> >And are the living expenses also 3-5 times higher or are they more?
> >I've heard reports that Moscow now is one of the most
> >expensive cities in the world, is that ficticious propaganda?
> >To live well in Moscow one would need a lot more than 3-5 times
> >the wage of a Ukrainian worker.
> Actually, average wages in MOscow are higher then elsewhere in Russia.
Just like in New York?
> >Since the cost of living is so much higher in Moscow they can probably get
> >better prices for their products in Moscow than in Kyiv, so they are good
> >businessmen, no?
> Cost of leaving in the USA is much more higher. Conclusion- life in US is
> worse in Ukraine..:-))
No, Mr. Luchin, conclusion is that if Ukrainians could take a cheap train
to New York with their produce they would. Conclusion is that food is
more expensive in Russia than in Ukraine.
> >Why don't the Russians keep their trains clean? I'm sure the Ukrainians were
> >making good money selling their produce otherwise they would not travel to
> >Moscow to sell their products.
> Trains going from Kharkov and Kiev to MOscow are Ukrainian trains, by the way.
> So, really, why ukrainians doen't keep their trains clean?:-)
>
> Alex.
If that is the case, then I am not surprised. :-)
Dan K.
Alexander Luchin
In article <326D74...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
> then in Ukraine.
> I live both in Ukraine and in Russia so I make conclusions from my own
>> experience. (I bet Dan will call it "lie" :-)
>
>So you visited Grozny and the Urals and Siberia as well or just the
>better neighborhoods of Moscow and the worst areas of Ukraine?
No, unfortunately I didn't have a chance to visit Urals or Sibirea, but I
met many people from there. I lived in Moscow region, ybut pretty far from
Moscow, near Serpukhov, if it tells you anything.
I've also visited Belgorod a number of times, which is just one hour of
train ride form Ukraine, but even going from Kharkov to Belgorod one could
see a big difference.
I remember once I needed some medication, it was available in Kharkov in
so-called "commercial" (i.E "private" pharmacies", but at a very high price
, so even my family couldn't afford that). But I went to Belgorod, and
, surprisingly enough, bought this medication at a regular pharmacy and at
much lower price.
I can tell you a number of stories like that.
>
>Just like in New York?
Well, of course sallaries of an average Moscovite is lower than average
sallary in NY, but avarage Moscow sallary is higher than somewhere else in
Russia.
>No, Mr. Luchin, conclusion is that if Ukrainians could take a cheap train
>to New York with their produce they would. Conclusion is that food is
>more expensive in Russia than in Ukraine.
It is actually "cheaper" for russians (it is more expensive in absolute
numbers) if we take into account russian and ukrainian sallaries.
>If that is the case, then I am not surprised. :-)
Me neither.
Alex.
Dimitri Ostapenko
Dan K. wrote:
> >>> Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?
>
> In article <32683E...@interlynx.net> Dimitri Ostapenko wrote:
>
> >Yes it is. I've been there, I've seen things and I can tell you that - yes life in
> >Russia is still much better then in Ukraine.
>
> Lebed and Rodionov are liars? And is the VOA article also a propaganda
> piece?
>
what's going on in the
world from CNN reports, my condolences. They tell only what they think
is appropriate from
US viewpoint to show everybody how powerful is US and how pitiful is
Russia.
Also, you have to know specifics of russian people. They are not so
patient as
ukrainians, who are used to be ruled by smbd during last 300 years.
Only due to this quality they
keep quiet in situations, which russian people would qualify as totally
anacceptable.
You have to understand the character, and to understand it you have to
live there for some
time. Indeed, ukrainians (I mean true mainland, not half or quater
ukrainians living here,
who almost lost their culture, don't speak proper ukrainian and usually
can't read and write
in ukrainian, but very nationalistic and proud of themselves) are very
patient and quiet people,
ready to help and very hospitable. They have not much in common with
north american ukrainians.
> >Average russian
> > worker makes 3-5 times more than worker doing the same job in
> > Ukraine. Maybe this is the big news for you and the like, but true
> > ukrainians, speaking true language and living in newly independent, though still
> > suffering Ukraine all know that.
>
> I've heard reports that Moscow now is one of the most
> expensive cities in the world, is that ficticious propaganda?
> To live well in Moscow one would need a lot more than 3-5 times
> the wage of a Ukrainian worker.
>
average figures
(unfortunately I don't know latest statistics, but from what I hear
from Ukraine
trend didn't change). And yes, you're right Moscow is one of the most
expensive cities
in Europe. So what? Tokio is expensive, New York is expensive, but
people live there.
Of course they make more than somewhere else. I don't buy you logic.
And there's no need
to get excited. Stay calm - I'm just looking for the truth and I don't
have a grudge
against anybody. Did I say that I like Russia better? Did I mension
that I approve of
Russian government and it's politics? No. I just said that LIFE IN
RUSSIA IS NOW BETTER
THAN IN UKRAINE - something that is known for fact by anybody who lives
in Ukraine.
> >I've been to Kharkov, where people had to walk home from work because
> >all trolleybus drivers went to nearest russian city of Belgorod to make
> >some russian roubles because they were worth much more than ukrainian
> >coupons.
>
> Ukrainians no longer use coupons so you must be talking about something
> in the distant past. Did the city of Kharkiv then hire new bus drivers or are
> the people still walking? :-)
something that happened
3 years ago. When grivna was introduced? September the 2-nd this year.
And there's no need to be
sarcastic. I am talking about this because it hurts.
> >I've been to Moscow and I've seen crowds of my countrymen trying to sell
> >meat, fruits and vegetables right at the square near Kiev station.
>
> better prices for their products in Moscow than in Kyiv, so they are good
> businessmen, no?
I'm talking
about farmers, old people, who have to do that because othervise it's
almost impossible
to make ends meet. And it's especially humiliating because they have to
do it in now foreign
country. I'm talking not about civilized trade, imagine hundreds and
hundreds of people
standing around big station, trying to sell food to moscovites. Don't
you think it's
humiliating? And this is just one case of many equally humiliating.
> >They had to buy an expensive ticket from profiteers for a questionable
> >privilege to spend a night in overcrowded and unsanitary train car, just
> >to be able to make some roubles in the morning and come back to Ukraine
> >next day.
>
> making good money selling their produce otherwise they would not travel to
> Moscow to sell their products.
and never took a
train say from Kiev to Moscov. It's UKRAINIAN train I'm talking about.
> >Yes I personally know many people who immigrated to Russia, because life
> >is better there.
>
> Good, why don't you move back there and work as an agent to get
> more of the Russians to leave Ukraine for the good life in Russia.
to do? For
example you could have started with the trip to Ukraine to see things
and then to
talk about them. Isn't it a good idea? I came here officially, I met
requirements
of Canadian government, I passed the points test and I have nothing to
be ashamed of.
And it's not my fault that I was born on the wrong side of the iron
curtain.
> >I lived there for 35 years and I don't have to come up with all sorts of
> >stupid ideas which have nothing in common with reality.
> >There's no need to be an ostrich, really.
> >Pardon my English - I'm still new immigrant, I came from Ukraine (Kiev),
> >just like probably your parents and relatives did long time search of a better life.
>
> not to fill their bellies. Most of them did not want to leave Ukraine.
he would be
killed by his own people if he stayed.
> >Dmitri Ostapenko (Ukrainian by both parents)
> >CAD/CAM Designer
> >Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
>
> like a Ukrainian, ie. Dmytro rather than like a Russian, Dmitri?
And why don't you sign as Danylo, or is DAN typical Ukrainian name?
> >(P.S. If you don't know something - just ask smbdy who does.
>
> Good advice for everyone including yourself. :-)
>
> > There's no need to invent real history.
>
> You are right there, real history is interesting enough.
>
>
> Good for him.
>
> >Guess what? All the lectures were in Ukrainian).
>
> textbooks in Ukrainian as well? What percentage of books that the
> students used in Ukrainian universities in the Ukrainian language?
> Are all textbooks used in Ukraine today in the Ukrainian language?
> Was Russification in Ukraine then a myth in your opinion?
Russian is
still dominant language in Eastern Ukraine. There was a move to switch
to Ukrainian
right after Independance was declared, but now everything is more or
less as it used
to be. That doesn't mean that there are no ukrainian schools, there's
plenty. Only in
Kiev they opened 50-60 new ukrainian schools when I was there. People
are now free to
decide which school to go and what language to speak.
> Regards, Dan K.
>
Dimitri
Dimitri Ostapenko
Dan K. wrote:
>
> The question of duplicity is:
>
> >> Is Life Really Better in Russian than in Ukraine?
>
> Mr Ostapenko answers a catagorical
>
> >Yes it is
>
> But does find himself in the Canada. I guess Russia was not that hot after
> all..
So what? If you can survive here, so can I. I like Canada I came here
legally, I passed my points test and paid my dues. What's wrong about
it?
> >I've been there, I've seen things and I can tell you that - yes life in
> >Russia is still much better then in Ukraine. Average russian worker
> >makes 3-5 times more than worker doing the same job in Ukraine. Maybe
> >this is the big news for you and the like, but true ukrainians, speaking
> >true language and living in newly independent, though still suffering
> >Ukraine all know that.
>
> How much better in actual monies? Do be specific. I trust that many
> Russian have also not been paid for months.
> What is this 3 and 4 times greater wage? $80 per month! Wow. This is
> somthing to strive for.
It's still 3-4 times more. You have problems with arithmetics? I'll
make it real simple for you. Say, you are making 50000 a year (which is
impossible with your IQ) and somebody is making 20000. Is it better or
what? We are talking about real wages here, remember.
Ukrainians are not being paid for months as well, they just keep quiet
bacause they are used to all kinds of abuse. It's no secret - call
anybody in Ukraine and you will find out.
> ?I've been to Kharkov, where people had to walk home from work because
> >all trolleybus drivers went to nearest russian city of Belgorod to make
> >some russian roubles because they were worth much more than ukrainian
> >coupons
>
> Well you are the priveledged. What is your point here, that in Ukraine it
> is more miserable than in Russia. Which misery is preferable? Ukrainian
> kids do not have to die in Chechnia and the devil knows where however.
> Ukraine does have a constitution and is making progress, Russia is not so
> slowly disintegtrating. Where is the base?
I didn't talk about politics. Question was where life is better. How
old is Ukrainian constitution? 1 month? Is it working? Is there law and
order in Ukraine? What about 4-year old who was kidnapped and cut in
half and then only 1 half returned to mother, who was able to come up
only with half of the ransom?
There were no assasination attempts on government officials? Don't be a
fool. The mob is ruling there as well as in Russia. Everybody who lives
there knows it.
>
> >I've been to Moscow and I've seen crowds of my countrymen trying to sell
> >meat, fruits and vegetables right at the square near Kiev station. They
> >had to buy an expensive ticket from profiteers for a questionable
> >privilege to spend a night in overcrowded and unsanitary train car, just
> >to be able to make some roubles in the morning and come back to Ukraine
> >next day.
>
> Whats your point here, that produce prices are higher and as such it is to
> the farmers advantage to sell there.
> The thugerry is also greater thetre, so is the lawlessness.
My point is it's humiliating for eldery farmers to stand in hundreds
around foreign railway station with sausages around the neck and fruits
in the baskets at their feet and beg Russians to buy something because
pension is not enough to pay most basic expenses.
My point is it hurts to think about it. I'm still Ukrainian you know,
not like you.
> >Yes I personally know many people who immigrated to Russia, because life
> >is better there.
>
> I also know many people that immigrated to Poland because life there is
> better than even in Russia. Non the less, what are the long term
> perspectives in Russia viv a vis Ukraine? Russia is a powder keg, Ukraine
> is not in spite of Russias efforts.
We are talking about Russia and Ukraine here.
Long term perspective is such that if people will listen to extreme
nationalists like you there will be a war between two slavic nations.
We've been living in piece for a long time. Half of my class at school
were russians and I never distinguished between the two. Ukraine
suffered a lot from Russia but so it did from Poland and Turkey. So you
suggest that Ukraine should fight with Russia, Poland and Turkey?
> >I lived there for 35 years and I don't have to come up with all sorts of
> >stupid ideas which have nothing in common with reality.
>
> What stupid ideas do you have in mind that have nothing to do with
> reality? I always thought that ideas had everything to do with reality.
Idea is just an idea. And it's hard to get any right one about distant
country, where you probably never been, culture of which you most likely
don't know, language of which has little in common with the strange
dialect, mix of old Ukrainian, Polish and contemporary English which you
speak. Can you write Ukrainian? Have you read anything besides
Shevtchenko and couple of nationalistic authors? Guess not. (I'm not
asking about Russian, one of the greatest languages and cultures)
> >There's no need to be an ostrich, really.
>
> Do be specific and make me a beneficiery of your erudition.
You really like that DO. You think that you sound like scolar when you
use it? What's your education level? Do be specific.
> >Pardon my English - I'm still new immigrant, I came from Ukraine (Kiev),
> >just like probably your parents and relatives did long time ago - in
> >search of a better life.
>
> And they stayed and supported communism and the murderers of their people.
> Just goes to show you that betrayal of virtue is not always beneficial. My
> parents left in order to survive. By the way, did your relatives find the
> better life in Russia?
Pardon me? Who stayed? Your parents? What murderers are you talking
about? Have mental disorders or something? Do be specific. Why should my
parents go to Russia? Father is happy at his work as a senior
designer/analyst at Antonov Aircraft in Kiev building new Ukrainian
plane. I was working there too for 10 years. And what did you do to help
Ukraine? Fight Russians and Jews on the Internet?
It's too late for my parents to move and it's not their falt.
> >Dmitri Ostapenko (Ukrainian by both parents)
>
> You would have fooled me.
You don't belive? So you think true Ukrainian should hate everybody who
is not Ukrainian? Especially Russians? And Jews? Wake up. It's 20-th
century and it's Canada.
> >CAD/CAM Designer
>
> What is a Cad/Cam designer? I do know what a cad system is, but a cad cam
> designer? Never heard of such a thing. Must be a new Soviet science
> imported to Canada.
See, you start asking questions. That's the way to learn. CAM is
Computer-Aided Manufacturing. People who read usually know this
abbreviation. But you probably don't read anything but hate literature.
> >Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
>
> >(P.S. If you don't know something - just ask smbdy who does. There's no
> >need to invent real history. BTW, my father graduated from Kiev
> >university back in 1956 (mech. math.) Guess what? All the lectures were
> >in Ukrainian)
>
> And your father was also a member of OYN right. All lectures were in
> Ukrainian in 1956? Remarkable. And one of the most basic courses was
> prevarication as a science of knowing also thaught in Ukrainian.
It's your right to not believe me. But nobody gave you right to insult
my father. He has never been a communist, never lied in his life and
knows more Shevtchenko by heart than you ever will.
> Neddless to say, I have a person working in my office right now from Kyiv
> and he would most definately not agree with you.
> This atop of the countless people that I do know from Ukraine who would
> catagoricaly brand your father as untruthfull and prevaricatory.
Don't get so excited. Try to spell words right - it's your native
language, probably the only one you can speak properly.
Person working in your office will tell you anything just to show how he
or she was suffering. It's usual newcomer's syndrom. It will pass in
couple of years. Then it will only depend on how sincere and honest the
person is. Of course, if it's convenient many prefer to tell you what
you expect to hear. Soviet school, you know.
As for my father, I don't know all Canadian customs, but where I came
from people usually slap your face if you insult them or their parents.
> Are you a member of the Ukrainan community in Hamiltion? I trust not.
>
> George.
>
Not of your community. I try not to take part in any hate groups (they
are outlawed, you know), but I DO have ukrainian friends here in Toronto
and in Ottawa. They are intelligent people though, not like you.
P.S. Ostrich is a bird, living in Africa, who has a habit to stuck her
head into sand in case of danger. The only difference, you do it without
any reason, George. I love that name. Sounds so Ukrainian, I'm ready to
cry.
Dimitri
Dimitri Ostapenko
Dan K. wrote:
>
> >>> Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?
>
Dan,
I must apologize for sending reply to message you've never written.
Please disregard my last reply.
Dimitri
Dimitri Ostapenko
Dan K. wrote:
>
> >>> Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?
>
I must apologize for the reply to the message you've never sent. I
confused you with somebody else.
Sorry about that
Dimitri
Uzulo
Dan K:
>> Ukrainians no longer use coupons so you must be talking about
something in the distant past. Did the city of Kharkiv then hire new
bus drivers or are the people still walking? :-) <<
Yes, now they don't. Probably Grivnas will make them rich, all of
a sudden. I personally doubt it. Remember the fate of the
Karbovanec, miserable even if compared with our miserable Russian
rouble ...
About Ukrainian workers in Russia: many of them REALLY work more
willingly in Russia than in Ukraine, I don't know why. There are
lots of examples: bus drivers in Moscow, builders in Moscow region,
etc.
>> Were all of the textbooks in Ukrainian as well? What percentage
of books that the students used in Ukrainian universities in the
Ukrainian language? Are all textbooks used in Ukraine today in the
Ukrainian language? Was Russification in Ukraine then a myth in your
opinion ? <<
The abundance of the pronoun ALL in that piece, it's very sad. Why
don't some of the guys take their temperature before writing ? Seems
they suffer from amnesia.
The reality is that for more than 70 years there existed such a
country, SU. Whether it was awful or just fine, one may have
different views, but it's a fact. Another fact is that there live
_very many_ Russians in Ukraine whose native language is Russian and
many Ukrainians who know Ukrainian worse than Russian. Should
bonehead fanatics of total ukrainisation order them all to learn
Ukrainian in several days, using the brilliant example of the
Taliban movement ?
And one more thing. I have lived in Ukraine for 2 years. In
everyday life of a small town in East Ukraine, it turned out that
that the number of persons using Ukrainian was significantly less
than of those using Russian. Once again: be it good or bad, it's a
fact. Ukrainian was LESS popular. One may shout as loud as he can
about suppression, but it was 7 years ago, before Ukraine gained its
independence. One could buy really good books, e.g. Ovid, John
Wayne, almanacs of European, Ukrainian, Russian classics, ALL
(DanK's favourite word) in Ukrainian. Almost NOBODY needed them.
When such books appeared in Russian, they disappeared in several
days. Why ?
A little better situation was with schoolbooks. They bought them
in Ukrainian as well, but not AS WELL as in Russian, despite the
fact that the number of Ukr. schools was just a little less than
that of the Rus. ones.
--
Uzulo <ty...@cile.msk.su>
Dan K.
And here is what Russia's Minister of Defense says about
the good life in Russia today, October 25, 1996:
DATE=10/25/96
TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT
NUMBER=2-205133
TITLE=RUSSIA / MILITARY (S ONLY)
BYLINE=ELIZABETH ARROTT
DATELINE=MOSCOW
CONTENT=VOICED AT:
INTRO: RUSSIA'S DEFENSE MINISTER SAYS THE FINANCIAL PROBLEMS OF
THE RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES COULD GET OUT OF CONTROL. V-O-A'S
ELIZABETH ARROTT REPORTS FROM MOSCOW.
TEXT: IN HIS STRONGEST WARNING YET, DEFENSE MINISTER IGOR
RODIONOV SAID UNLESS THE MILITARY IS GIVING MORE MONEY, THERE IS
NO SAYING WHAT COULD HAPPEN.
SPEAKING TO VETERANS IN MOSCOW, GENERAL RODIONOV SAID THE
MILITARY IS ON THE EDGE OF EXTREMELY UNDESIRABLE, EVEN
UNCONTROLLABLE DEVELOPMENTS.
// RODIONOV ACT -- IN RUSSIAN - FADE UNDER //
GENERAL RODIONOV STRESSED, HOWEVER, THE ARMED FORCES ARE AT THE
MOMENT UNDER CONTROL. HE ALSO SAID HE HAS PLANS FOR CREATING A
NEW, IMPROVED MILITARY WITHIN A DECADE -- A SMALLER FORCE THAT
WOULD BE MORE PROFESSIONAL AND BETTER PREPARED FOR BATTLE.
BUT THE DEFENSE MINISTER WARNED THOSE PLANS ARE TENUOUS. HE SAID
THE CURRENT BUDGET PROVIDES FOR ONLY ONE-THIRD OF THE MILITARY'S
MINIMUM NEEDS, AND GIVES NOTHING FOR REFORM.
THE GENERAL'S SPEECH IS CLEARLY TIED TO ONGOING BUDGET TALKS. BUT
IT MARKS A SIGNIFICANT BREAK FROM HIS EARLIER STATEMENTS WHEN HE
DISMISSED CONCERNS THE MILITARY COULD VEER TOWARD CHAOS.
(SIGNED)
25-Oct-96 9:43 AM EDT (1343 UTC)
Source: Voice of America
So much for life being better in Russia than in Ukraine.
May God save Ukraine from the "good life" of Russia.
May God save the Ukrainians from being deceived into
believing that going backwards is going to move them forwards.
It did not work for the Israelis in the desert after they
left the slavery of Egypt, it will not work for the Ukrainians
after they left the slavery of the Evil Empire.
Dan K.
Dan K.
In article <54307d$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Alexander Luchin wrote:
>Date: 16 Oct 1996 15:50:05 GMT
>In article <326457...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. wrote:
>>My point is, is that life economically may be worse for most people
>>in all of the NIS countries including Russia,
>>but that in the non Russian countries this is balanced out
>>by the great freedoms which have been garnered after the
>>collapse of Soviet Russian colonialism.
>Democracy has to be based on economy,
I don't know what schools you have been going to Luchin,
but you have not been getting a very good education, neither in
history nor in economics nor in social sciences. Democracy is not
based on economics, it is based on the desire of people to
be free and to govern themselves. Economics is the study of
various types of economic systems. In a democracy people are
free to create or change an economic system or model to suit
their needs.
>if economy is not working, if
>people's living conditions are decreasing, if people's lived
> better (materially) in the past, people are not going to be happy
> with democracy,
>people will long for "good old times when they didn't have
> much political
>freedoms, but when life was better and safer,
Better and safer for whom? The Russians murdered between
7 and 10 million Ukrainian farmers, priests and intellectuals during
the early thirties because they wanted to be free independent farmers
and because they loved their country and way of life, was life better and
safer for them Luchin?
>and the success of communists on the last elections in Ukraine in Russia shows
> that it's really the case.
Most of those who voted for the Communists in Ukraine were the
remnants of the Russian colonists who were sent to Ukraine to
populate Ukraine after the mass murders perpetrated by the
Soviet Russian regime. We've already gone over this Luchin,
why do you keep wanting to hear it over and over?
>>Ukrainians, Balts, Central Asians
>>and Jews can at least now rebuild their houses of worship
>> and go to church
>>without freedom of it hindering their careers, they can now freely and openly
>>love their countries as only the Russians could do before, they can now
>>do art and literature and music in their own languages and develop their
>>own cultures which they were forbidden to do under Russian colonial rule.
>Religion was suppressed all over the Soviet Union, including
> Russia, so it wasn't something "russians" suppressed exclusively in
> Ukraine or Baltics.
What the Russians did in their own country to their own people is their
internal affair, what they did to the Ukrainians and Balts is akin to what
the Nazis did to the Jews and all the peoples they invaded.
>AS for language being forbidden, I don't know what you're talking about,
>because in Ukraine, and it was true for other republics, there was
>education in Ukrainian available, it was mandatory to study ukrainian
>language and literature even in russian schools,
No wonder Mr. Rycar detests you Luchin, you have no moral integrity.
Even in the West people were informed very well about the Russification
of the non Russian nations in the FSU. How the Russians made a show of
supporting multiculturalism but forced Russian down everyone's throat literally.
When I visited a book show in Frankfurt in the early eightys I visited the Soviet
exhibition. All of the books were in Russian so I asked one of the Soviets there
why there weren't any books in any of the other languages of the USSR. The
Soviet said yes there were lots of books in other languages as well, so I asked to
see a book in Ukrainian, he hunted all over and finally found ONE book in Ukrainian
and said see we have books in Ukrainian, all the other thousands of books
were in Russian. Your reasonings Luchin are like that scumbag Soviet's.
When I was in Ukraine during the mid 70s I searched for books in
Ukrainian and they were extremely hard to find. I asked friends why and they
told me that it was the Russian policy to push the use of the Russian language
at the expense of Ukrainian. The policy was the same throughout the FSU.
Thank God that Evil Empire is DEAD.
And why were there any Russian schools in Ukraine at all Luchin?
Who wanted the Russian schools there?
>there were a lot of books
>in Ukrainian available in libraries and bookstores (actusally
> it was much easier to buy a good book in ukrainian than in russian),
You speak with forked tongue Mr. Luchin!!!
> there was ukrainian TV, ukrainian music, ukrainian art etc.
It was all kept at a provincial level Luchin. And anyone that was too fond
of it was considered a Bourgois nationalist, or have you already forgotten
that term?
Have you ever heard of the Ukrainian premier by the name of
Shelest who was removed from power by Moscow because
he wrote a book that was too pro Ukrainian?
In Eastern Ukraine Ukrainian was not even understood by
the majority of people because they were Russians, I was there
Luchin and I saw it first hand especially in cities like Kharkiv
and Dnipropetrovsk. And why are these cities still Russian speaking today?
I would ask people simple things like directions
and they would just shrug and say, "ne panimaiu", "I don't understand"
so much for the little introductory Ukrainian they took in school.
>I'm not going to argue thoug that native languages and cultures of the
>republics were not suppressed at all, they were suppressed,
> at different extent during different periods, but it was far from being
> forbidden as you write.
Luchin, Luchin, when people are persecuted for using their native language,
ie, if you used it you did not get good jobs or promotions and were persecuted
and called a nationalist among other names, that language is esentially forbidden
because if you use it you are discriminated against severly. I travelled all over
Ukraine during Soviet times and that is what Ukrainians from all walks of life
told me. Yes, you could speak Ukrainian all you wanted if you didn't aspire to
anything more than being a collective farm worker.
>Russian culture also was damaged by communists, if you remember how many
>russian writers had to leave the country, were killed or imprisoned, or
>didn't have a possibility to write what they wanted (or if they did
>couldn't publish their works).
That is not the same as being persecuted for using a particular language
as was done in Ukraine not only in Soviet times but also in Czarist times.
But thank God that is all in the past, isn't it wonderful?
>As for middle asia- yeah, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tadgikistan are now
>enjoying the substantioal freedom. For example, Turkmens are free, for
>sure, to glorify their Turkmenbashi:-)
>>They can now study and learn thier own history which before was rewritten
>>to serve their colonial masters, they can now study and travel abroad
>>which before they could not do, they can now buy products from the West and
>>East which before were unavailable, they can now get all kinds of information
>>from the West which before was forbidden, they can now own a typewriter or
>>computer or photocopier which before was controlled by the Soviet Russian
>>occupiers and I could go on and on.
>Unfortunately Dan, an avarage Ukrainians can't do it now-they can't buy
>computer, photocopier, products from West because they can't
> afford that.
Luchin, Luchin, many Ukrainians are buying computers, typewriters
and other Western and Eastern products today, I understand that
you may not like that, but that is too bad. But even for those who
can not afford a computer today, at least they can dream of some day
getting one because at least it is no longer against the law for them to
own one. Do you get it now Mr. Luchin?
>>As stated above, some, specifically Mr. Luchin among others, presented
>>"arguments" based on statements similar to the VOA article to show that
>>life in Ukraine was very bad and life in Russia was very good. This
>>article refutes those arguments and gives support to my thesis that life
>>in Russia is not better than in Ukraine.
>I never worte that life in Russia is perfect, life in Russia is hard for
>ordinary people, but it's still better than life in Ukraine, and I base
>this conclusion on my personal experience as well.
But it is not better than life in Ukraine according to Mr. Lebed and
Defense Minister Rodionov and the VOA article and other articles which
I and others have posted. In fact according to them it seems to be
WORSE. At least I haven't heard about any Ukrainian soldiers about
to starve to death as Lebed reported is the case in Russia.
But if life is so much better in Russia as you believe then
Russians would be leaving Ukraine by the thousands but unfortunately
Dan K.
In article <kdaDzn...@netcom.com> Dan Korolev wrote:
>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:15:08 GMT
>Dear namesake, is your skull REALLY as thick as you pretend
> it to be? How many times do dozens of intelligent people have to repeat to
> you the same thing: Yes, life in Russia is very poor, poor compared to, say,
>Poland, Turkey, Argentina. THAT is why Lebed and Rodionov and
>VOA are so concerned. And rightfully so. No, they are not liars. But
>everything is relative. There ARE countries on this Planet that are much
>worse off than even Russia: Rwanda, Ukraine, Somalia. Do you GET it now?
Korolev, I think that it is you who are the idiot here because even
though you have lived in the USA for a while now, according to you,
the fundamentals of Western values have not yet permeated your
soviet sovok skull. It is the same with all of you sovoks who write here
on scu. Unfortunately there are even ethnic Ukrainians like Dmytro, I mean
Dmitri, who have been sovietized and have not yet as Ukrainians say,
"she ne preyshov do sebe", "he has not yet woken up" or literally
"he has not yet come to himself". Western, and I might add traditional
Ukrainian, (just study the words of the Ukrainian national anthem), values
do not attribute the highest values to satiating one's belly with kovbasa.
As Jesus Christ once said, "man does not live by bread alone." He
taught to seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness and
that if you do that then all things shall be added unto you. The animalistic
instincts of soviets, and Western "liberals" I might add , teach to seek to
satisfy the belly first and then your other animalistic instincts and after those
have all been satisfied then one can seek to satisfy higher human values.
So I do not find it hard to understand why you and your soviet cohorts
can not understand that LIFE in Ukraine is indeed better than in Russia,
even IF in some cities like Moscow the economic life for the majority may
be a LITTLE better than the ECONOMIC life for the majority say in Kyiv
or other Ukrainian cities. IT IS ALL A MATTER OF VALUES!
One of America's greatest Revolutionary War heroes, Patrick Henry once
said, "Give me liberty or give me death", a Ukrainian or a Chechen
or an Estonian can understand that sentiment, some Russians like you,
and perhaps most, I'm afraid can not. But you being a half Jew should,
if you read your Torah, be able to understand the meaning of freedom
and slavery, but perhaps you are too busy studying or working in America
to make money and fill your belly and and satisfy your other animalistic
appetites to bother learning about higher values.
> >>Average russian
>>> worker makes 3-5 times more than worker doing the same job in
>>> Ukraine. ...cut....
>>And are the living expenses also 3-5 times higher or are they more?
>No.
Then why isn't the Russian Army buying up all the foodstuffs being
brought to Russia by poor Ukrainian farmers at bargain prices
so that their army does not have to starve as reported by Russia's
Defense Minister, or are his words just a ploy to get more funds
for the Russian army. I guess the news fotos on NBC News
the other night showing living conditions of Russian officers was also
a fabrication. In such a case why isn't the Russian community in America,
as well as you fellows, disputing the report? :-)
More fun to argue on the internet? :-)
>>I've heard reports that Moscow now is one of the most
>>expensive cities in the world, is that ficticious propaganda?
>True. However, the average income of Moscovites is maybe 20
> times higher than of Ukrainians. On th eother hand, in Russian provinces,
> the prices are the same as in Ukraine but incomes are 3 times higher.
Happy lucky Russians, all of the Russians living in Ukraine should know
such statistics, they would be boarding trains day and night to go live back
in the Motherland. Maybe the US should help those poor Russians suffering
in Ukraine to repatriate back to the sweet Russian Paradise.
>>To live well in Moscow one would need a lot more than 3-5 times
>>the wage of a Ukrainian worker.
>And they do: about 20 times higher.
So why aren't all the millions of Russians who were settled in Ukraine,
to populate Ukraine after the Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians,
moving back to Russia where life is so good? Are they afraid to get their
hands bloody in places like Chechnya, but now that the war is over they
should start leaving in droves.
>How do you know these were Russian trains and not Ukrainian?
> Are you telling us that Ukraine doesnot even have any trains of their
> own? You are a liar! Stop besmerching the (already bleak) Ukrainian
> economy.
Don't get so excited Korolev, you might wet your pants, I was not aware
that all of the trains running between Kyiv and Moscow were Ukrainian,
as you posit. IF YOU ARE CORRECT, the presumption on my part does
dot make me a liar.
>>I'm sure the Ukrainians were
>>making good money selling their produce otherwise they would
> not travel to Moscow to sell their products.
>That's true. You get one point on your scoreboard.
>>>Yes I personally know many people who immigrated to Russia, because life
>>>is better there.
>>Good, why don't you move back there and work as an agent to get
>>more of the Russians to leave Ukraine for the good life in Russia.
>Ooops, we are taking back that previous point from you: for
> demagoguery. Your Ukrainian opponent made a valid point: that a lot of
> Ukrainians are now moving to Russia because the standard of living there is
> not as low as in Ukraine. You werer supposed to counter his argument.
> But you had nothing to counter with. So, you started personal insults. "
It wasn't a personal insult you idiot, it was constructive career advice.
After all, if life is so much better in Russia as you sovoks are inclined to believe
there should be a big job market for relocating the millions of Russians
who are living in Ukraine back to their homeland. And Russia should be just
as helpful in helping these poor Russians move back to Russia as the French
were in bringing back their French from Algeria, the Belgians their nationals
from the former Belgian Congo and the English their's from India and other parts
of their former vast empire. Or aren't the Russians as magnanimous towards
their own that they sent out to colonize?
> why don't you move back there...". Well, if yuo thing that Ukraine is
> NOT in such terrible state, why don't YOU move there and enjoy the life?
It is you idiot who is saying that life in Russia is vastly better than in
Ukraine, I NEVER said that life in Ukraine is better than in the USA,
got that Korolev? BTW idiot, my grandfather did indeed move
back to Ukraine from the USA nearly a hundred years ago, not because
the economic life was better in Ukraine but because the quality of life
in Ukraine was better than in the USA, in his opinion.
And I am sure that if Ukraine had kept her independence after the
collapse of the Russian Czarist Empire, the standard of living in Ukraine
would be on a par with the rest of Europe, indeed higher!
>Moreover, the majority of those who emigrate from Ukraine to
> Russia are UKRAINIANS, not Russians.
Are you a poll taker now Korolev? Show me your statistics
and how you got them please.
>>Dmitri, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write your name
>>like a Ukrainian, ie. Dmytro rather than like a Russian, Dmitri?
>Dan, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write
> your name like a Ukrainian, ie. Danylo?
Are you sure it's Danylo? In any case, it would be a shortening of the
name and not using a foreign countries transliteration. Now if
Dmitri was living in Russia I could understand him using Dmitri, but
since he is living in Canada he should be using Dmytro if he had any
Ukrainian patriotism or conscience. Immediately after independence
I met many Ukrainians who were eithter visiting or immigrating here
in the USA and many through ignorance used the Russian transliteration
of their names, ie. Igor instead of Ihor, Boris instead of Borys, Bogdan
instead of Bohdan, etc. But when the proper transliteration was brought
to their attention, they immediately changed their name spelling, IF THEY
HAD ANY UKRAINIAN PATRIOTIC FEELINGS AT ALL.
But if Dmytro wants to be a Dmitri, so be it, mozhe kolys' vin she
preyde do sebe. :-)
>>>BTW, my father graduated from Kiev university back in 1956 (mech. math.)
>>Good for him.
>>>Guess what? All the lectures were in Ukrainian).
>>Great, was that true in all universities in Ukraine?
>No. There were several Universities where lectures were in Russian,
>French, English, German. Especially Russian, because about half of the
>population of Ukraine was ether native Russian-speakers or Georgians,
>Armenians, Moldovans etc., who knew Russian and didn't know
>Ukrainian. Just as many schools in USA are now taught in Spanish.
Who were these people, how was it that "half of the population of Ukraine"
(not quite, Korolev is exagerating or he is speaking of Eastern Ukraine)
were foreigners? You know don't you Korolev? But for those who really
don't, the Russians murdered between 7 and 10 million Ukrainian farmers in
Eastern Ukraine during the early 1930s and also murdered thousands of
Ukraine's best people including teachers, priests, doctors, lawyers, the
whole Ukrainian intelligencia, whoever was not able to escape, who was
a Ukrainian patriot and loved Ukraine, indeed even Ukrainian communists
were murdered because they were considered untrustworthy if they were too
expressly Ukrainian.
>But that's not the point. Your point was that Ukrainian language was
>forbidden in Ukraine and Ukrainians had no place to study in hteir own
>language. Your Ukrainian opponent disproved your lie by pointing out that,
>for example, the most important University in all of Ukraine, Kyiv U.,
>taught in Ukrainian. Stop demagoguery.
I already answered this in detail in another post. But basically if one
wanted to get ahead during the soviet era one had to speak Russian at
work or one was considered a bourgeois nationalist and was persecuted in
various ways. This is something which the likes of Korolev never experienced
because he never would use Ukrainian anyway at a place of work. And of
course the higher up the social ladder one climbed the greater was the stigma
attaached to using Ukrainian. How do I know? I visited Ukraine, including
Eastern Ukraine during the soviet days and that is how many Ukrainians in higher
positions excused themselves to me for their poor Ukrainian when talking with me.
They told me that it was "expected of them" to use the occupiers language.
Some Russians in fact did not even believe me when I told them that I was a Westerner
until I showed them my passport because for them why or how could one
learn and speak Ukrainian outside Ukraine.
Today, thank God it is different.
Dan K.
Henrietta Thomas
[newsgroups trimmed; followups revised]
In article <32726E...@ezdial.com>,
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>In article <54307d$g...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Alexander Luchin
>wrote:
>>Date: 16 Oct 1996 15:50:05 GMT
>
>>In article <326457...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. wrote:
>
>>>My point is, is that life economically may be worse for most people
>>>in all of the NIS countries including Russia,
>>>but that in the non Russian countries this is balanced out
>>>by the great freedoms which have been garnered after the
>>>collapse of Soviet Russian colonialism.
>
>>Democracy has to be based on economy,
>
>I don't know what schools you have been going to Luchin,
>but you have not been getting a very good education, neither in
>history nor in economics nor in social sciences. Democracy is not
>based on economics, it is based on the desire of people to
>be free and to govern themselves. Economics is the study of
>various types of economic systems. In a democracy people are
>free to create or change an economic system or model to suit
>their needs.
[...] tirades deleted
Dan K......
I have to agree with your definition here. And I wonder, since this is
true, why our country (USA) is running around the world telling every
other country how to run their internal affairs? Why don't we just leave
them alone and let them "govern themselves"? That way, each of them could
set up their own economic/political system.
Henrietta
h...@pop.wwa.com
Dan K.
In article <54h5es$8...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Alexander Luchin wrote:
>Date: 22 Oct 1996 00:45:16 GMT
>In article <326B02...@ezdial.com>, Dan K.
> <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>>I don't know what schools you have been going to Luchin,
>>but you have not been getting a very good education, neither in
>>history nor in economics nor in social sciences. Democracy is not
>>based on economics, it is based on the desire of people to
>>be free and to govern themselves. Economics is the study of
>>various types of economic systems. In a democracy people are
>>free to create or change an economic system or model to suit
>>their needs.
>Then in Russia people were free to change their economic system to socialism:-)
Wasn't that Zyuganov's platform, to stop the economic reform and return
to the "socialist" road?
>What I meant is that if political changes towards democracy are not
>supported by economocal improvement democracy is not very likely to last long.
I think that you need to be clear to differentiate that two concepts.
There are democracies which are rich and there are democracies
which are poor. Likewise there are various degrees of "socialism"
and not all of them are tyrranical. Sweden for example is considered
by some to be "socialist" but they are a democratic constitutional monarchy
whose industry is predominantly privately owned. What is necessary in
all cases is justice and economic opportunity. Not everyone in the USA
is a millionaire.
>When people's lives are getting worse every day, when people are not
>sure in the future, when people can hardly make ends meet, they are very
>likely to support not democratic leaders, but those who promise quick
>solution of people's problems, who promise to improve situation overnight,
>who offers easy solutions and points on apparent and easy-to-get enemies
>who are in charge of the woesening of situation (jews, chechens, russians,
>americans etc), who promise to restore law and order with "tough measures".
>It happened in Germany in 1933,
Yes, I agree that this sometimes can happen if people lose hope and feel that
they will not be able to improve their circumstances and their lives. This is where
it is important for democratic governments to deal with corruption and
to be just in dealing with everyone. It also means that big countries like
Russia must give up their illusions of grandeur and the past and learn from
big democracies like the USA and Germany to have equal relations with
their smaller neighbors and poorer neighbors. And to understand that
the struggle for democracy and justice is a continual struggle, it is a process
and not a final state. It will be a struggle until Christ returns and establishes
His government on Earth. But then that will be a just dictatorial theocracy.
It will be welcomed by all except those who want to oppress, corrupt,
exploit, pervert, pollute, etc..
in Chile in 1973
I'm not sure the situation in Chile can be compared to the situation in Germany.
>and as you see, this is the reason of a success of communists in Ukraine and Russia.
AFAIK it is a little more complex than that.
>>Better and safer for whom? The Russians murdered between
>>7 and 10 million Ukrainian farmers, priests and intellectuals during
>>the early thirties because they wanted to be free independent farmers
>>and because they loved their country and way of life, was life better and
>>safer for them Luchin?
>There are 150 millions of russians. Do all of them participated in murders.
The majority AFAIK supported their government. IN ANY CASE IT
WAS THEIR GOVERNMENT.
>Did only russians participated in Stalin's repressions?
Yes, primarily. It wasn't the Chinese was it?
>Was Stalin russian?
Yes, Stalin was Soviet Russian by choice. Just as Hitler was a German by choice
just as I am an American by choice.
>Was Kaganovich russian? Was Beria russian? Was Yagoda russian.
Yes, as above, they all supported the Soviet Russian Empire.
>Million of russian were murdered and died in concentration camps. What about them?
What about them? It was their country. Millions of Chinese died under communism
what about them? What the Chinese did in Tibet, however, is another
story and is just as abominable as what the Russians did in Ukraine.
>>Most of those who voted for the Communists in Ukraine were the
>>remnants of the Russian colonists who were sent to Ukraine to
>>populate Ukraine after the mass murders perpetrated by the
>>Soviet Russian regime. We've already gone over this Luchin,
>>why do you keep wanting to hear it over and over?
>If you mean russian-speaking Ukrainians, the majority of them were born in
>Ukraine and therefore, regardless of the reason their ancestors
You mean parents don't you?
>came to
>Ukraine, they have to have the same rights in Ukraine as ethnic Ukrinians do.
They also have the same rights to go back to their motherland as the French
ethnics did in Algeria, as the Belgian ethnics did in the Congo as the English
ethnics did in India, etc. etc.
>BTW, Ukrainwe was part of Russia for over 300 years, and many russians
>came to Ukraine a long time before the "october revolution".
The VAST majority came to settle the lands after the Russians commited
genocide against the Ukrainian population.
>BTW, communists got the majority of votes, so , if only "evil russians"
>voted for them, then you should admit that russians are the majority in
>Ukraine:-)
Most Russians, some Ukrainians. In Eastern Ukraine, as you pointed out,
where Russian domination was exercised for about 300 years all Ukrainians
were either murdered or heavily Russified and denationalized. The choice
for them was to be Russified or be killed or deported or terribly oppressed.
Most were murdered by famine or in Stalin's purges. Those that remained
are unfortunately heavily Russified, they no longer know who they are.
But they will little by little. And maybe the ethnic Russians will learn to be
good Ukrainians. Or they can go home. :-)
>>No wonder Mr. Rycar detests you Luchin, you have no moral integrity.
>>Even in the West people were informed very well about the Russification
>>of the non Russian nations in the FSU. How the Russians made a show of
>>supporting multiculturalism but forced Russian down everyone's throat literally.
>>When I visited a book show in Frankfurt in the early eightys I visited the Soviet
>>exhibition. All of the books were in Russian so I asked one of the Soviets there
>>why there weren't any books in any of the other languages of the USSR. The
>>Soviet said yes there were lots of books in other languages as well, so I asked to
>>see a book in Ukrainian, he hunted all over and finally found ONE book in Ukrainian
>>and said see we have books in Ukrainian, all the other thousands of books
>>were in Russian. Your reasonings Luchin are like that scumbag Soviet's.
>>When I was in Ukraine during the mid 70s I searched for books in
>>Ukrainian and they were extremely hard to find. I asked friends why and they
>>told me that it was the Russian policy to push the use of the Russian language
>>at the expense of Ukrainian. The policy was the same throughout the FSU.
>>Thank God that Evil Empire is DEAD.
>I don't know where you went, but in Kharkov bookstores were
> full of books in Ukrainian, one could easily find a good book in ukrainian
> (world classics etc), which was quite a problem in russian.
>Again, I didn't write that ukrainian culture was not suppressed, but the
>things were not that black-and-white.
It was very black and white for me when I could find very little Ukrainian literature
in Kharkiv's bookstores and where most of the people were foreigners
who spoke a foreign language.
> >And why were there any Russian schools in Ukraine at all Luchin?
> >Who wanted the Russian schools there?
>Because there are russian-speakers there.
Yes, they came to Kharkiv as occupiers and did not want to learn the Ukrainian
language as good immigrants do when they come to live in a foreign country.
And the Russians controlled the school system didn't they, so that the
children of the occupiers did not have to learn and USE the local language.
>>>there were a lot of books in Ukrainian available in libraries and bookstores
>>> (actusally it was much easier to buy a good book in ukrainian than in russian),
>>You speak with forked tongue Mr. Luchin!!!
>I see.. Another Mr. Luchins "lie". Looks like in Dan's
> language "lie" is something he doesn;'t like or does not agree with.
>>It was all kept at a provincial level Luchin. And anyone that was too fond
>>of it was considered a Bourgois nationalist, or have you already forgotten
>>that term?
>Here you are right, ukrainian TV was (as it is now) on a very low level,
>nobody watched it except for the movies and cartoons.
>>Have you ever heard of the Ukrainian premier by the name of
>>Shelest who was removed from power by Moscow because
>>he wrote a book that was too pro Ukrainian?
>Of course I did.
>>In Eastern Ukraine Ukrainian was not even understood by
>>the majority of people because they were Russians, I was there
>>Luchin and I saw it first hand especially in cities like Kharkiv
>>and Dnipropetrovsk. And why are these cities still Russian speaking today?
>I grew up in Kharkov, Eastern Ukraine, and I haven't met anybody who grew
>up in Eastern Ukraine and didn't understand ukrainian. It was hard
>actually, when learning ukrainian language and literature was mandatory.
>How's that? Another lie of Mr. Luchin?
>Cities speak russian (and they WILL speak russian), because for the people
>there russian ia a native language and it is natural for people to speak
>their native language.
Yes, the language of the foreign occupiers who have lost imperial control but
have left their people to keep local control. If these people choose to
remain in Ukraine then they need to be good Ukrainian citizens and
support the constitution and laws of Ukraine.
> >I would ask people simple things like directions
>>and they would just shrug and say, "ne panimaiu", "I don't understand"
>>so much for the little introductory Ukrainian they took in school.
>It could've been a problem with your ukrainian Dan, not with
> their, since you grew up in the States...
Funny, ethnic Ukrainians did not have any trouble understanding me,
not even in the Crimea.
>>>Russian culture also was damaged by communists, if you remember how many
>>>russian writers had to leave the country, were killed or imprisoned, or
>>>didn't have a possibility to write what they wanted (or if they did
>>>couldn't publish their works).
>>That is not the same as being persecuted for using a particular language
>>as was done in Ukraine not only in Soviet times but also in Czarist times.
>>But thank God that is all in the past, isn't it wonderful?
>Agree. Soviet communists did a lot of terrible things, and it is great
>that their tyrany is in the past. But I wouldn't like another kind of
>tyrany to come, when peopel again would be prosecuted for the
> use of their language.
>>Luchin, Luchin, many Ukrainians are buying computers, typewriters
>>and other Western and Eastern products today, I understand that
>>you may not like that, but that is too bad.
>I would like it, if it were true (why wouldn't I, I have close relatives
>oand friends in Ukraine, of course I wan tthem to be wealthy),
Why don't you buy them a computer and send it to them. Don't be
afraid, it is no longer against the law as in former soviet days. They
will not be imprisoned for it.
>unfortunately thye majority of ukrainians just can't afford all that (I hope yet)
Not yet, but hey Rome was not built in a day, and neither was the USA.
After independence the Americans had a rough go of it for a while also.
>>But even for those who can not afford a computer today, at least they can dream of
>> some day getting one because at least it is no longer against the law
>> for them to own one. Do you get it now Mr. Luchin?
>Dream? Yeah, it's abig relief.
Like I said Rome was not built in a day and neither was the USA.
And going backwards is not moving forwards. Freedom offers
possibilities, slavery does not. That applies to the Russians as well.
I believe that if both Russia and Ukraine continue on the road of reform,
including how Russia treats her neighbors, then life for both Ukrainians
and Russians will improve dramatically over the next few years.
>>Defense Minister Rodionov and the VOA article and other articles which
>>I and others have posted. In fact according to them it seems to be
>>WORSE.
>Yeah, trust Lebed' and Rodionov :-) BTW, I haven't read any
> Lebed''s statement about life in Russia being worse than in Ukraine.
Nor I, but your statements about Ukraine were mirrored in his statements
about Russia, only his statements made out Russia to be in worse condition
than what you said about Ukraine. A news video also showed the horrible
living conditions of Russian military officers, worse than anything I've read
or heard about concerning Ukraine. Moreover, I haven't heard about any
cities being destroyed in Ukraine the way that Grozny was destroyed.
Do you think that life in Grozny is better than in any city in Ukraine???
How about the quality of life in the villages around Grozny?
>>But if life is so much better in Russia as you believe then
>>Russians would be leaving Ukraine by the thousands but unfortunately
>>they are not.
>Thouthand of Ukrainians go to work in Russia.
> Alex.
Maybe the Russians just don't want to work?
Or maybe the Russians have most of the good jobs in Ukraine, as they
did before independence.
Regards, Dan K.
Alexander Luchin
>Wasn't that Zyuganov's platform, to stop the economic reform and return
>to the "socialist" road?
It is hard to say about Zyuganov's program, apparently his program didn't
call for the complete return to the "socialist" road- his program
recognized private property (actually, it called for the existance of
different forms of property- private and state), it didn't call for the
complete 100 % nationalization and for the return of the one-party system,
but it called for greater government control, for greater social protection,
for the reforms in slower pace, so they don't hurt the people,
but as far as I remember it was againts private property on land as well.
There was also a lot about corruption, crime etc..
So, his program was not that bad, but it was only program , and nobody
knows what policy Ziuganov would follow in reality if he'd won the
elections, especially considering that KPRF is very diverse and there are
a lot of real hard-liners in there ranks.
>I think that you need to be clear to differentiate that two concepts.
>There are democracies which are rich and there are democracies
>which are poor. Likewise there are various degrees of "socialism"
>and not all of them are tyrranical. Sweden for example is considered
>by some to be "socialist" but they are a democratic constitutional monarchy
>whose industry is predominantly privately owned. What is necessary in
>all cases is justice and economic opportunity. Not everyone in the USA
>is a millionaire.
But still, there is private property in Sweden and nobody is going to
abolish it- the main feature of the Soviet economic model of socialism was
almost 100% abolishment of private property.
As for "poor democracies" I think that poor democracy always has big
chances to transfer into tyrany.
>Yes, I agree that this sometimes can happen if people lose hope and feel that
>they will not be able to improve their circumstances and their lives. This is where
>it is important for democratic governments to deal with corruption and
>to be just in dealing with everyone. It also means that big countries like
>Russia must give up their illusions of grandeur and the past and learn from
>big democracies like the USA and Germany to have equal relations with
>their smaller neighbors and poorer neighbors. And to understand that
>the struggle for democracy and justice is a continual struggle, it is a process
>and not a final state. It will be a struggle until Christ returns and establishes
>His government on Earth. But then that will be a just dictatorial theocracy.
>It will be welcomed by all except those who want to oppress, corrupt,
>exploit, pervert, pollute, etc..
The problem with the government of Russia is that it's leaders ofetn
choose easy solutions- instead of improving Russia's economy and recognise
the mistakes they often try to find "enemies" and "responsible" for the
situation of Russia's ecomnomy outside of Russia's borders ant try to
solve problems of Russia at their neighbour's cost.
>I'm not sure the situation in Chile can be compared to the situation in Germany.
Of course, teh situation was different- the goals of Nazi and Pinochet
were quite different- end the results of their rule were very different-
but the general idea is the same - there was a democracy, which was
replaced by thyrany.
>>and as you see, this is the reason of a success of communists in Ukraine and Russia.
>
>AFAIK it is a little more complex than that.
It probably is, please explain your opinion.
>>There are 150 millions of russians. Do all of them participated in murders.
>
>The majority AFAIK supported their government. IN ANY CASE IT
>WAS THEIR GOVERNMENT.
It's hard to blame for the people of the soviet union their "support" of ,
say Stalin's government- first , the government had all the media in their
hands, and when the government has all the media in their hands, it is
very easy to brainwash the whole nation, especially when people don't have
alternative sourses of information. The majority of the people of the
Soviet Union didn't know about Stalins repressions (I mean they didn't
know about the real extent of it, and as for those they new about- they
were made to think of their victims as about enemies by the Stalinist
propagandist machine). Another thing that I belive that unorganized
citizens can't resists to the governmewnt repression machine (army, police,
secret services), and the Stalin's government (and later governments had
all this machine in their hands), somebody has to organize them, but , in
case of the Soviet Union- the resistance was destroyed even during civil
war, those who where able to resist were either exterminated of had to
leave the country, and even later if somebody had even little doubts and
was brave enough to express it,were
killed or sent to concentration camps, some people understood but were
afraid to say anything.
As you know that bolshevics (and Stalin later)didn't come to power as a
result of free elections, but just took the power over by violent way.
So, anyway, what I'm trying to say that I think that the people of the
Soviet Union didn't have much freedom of chice in supporting or not
supporting the government.
The same is true for Germany. Anyway, it's a very complicated and more
phylosophical question- whether the ordinary people are responsible for
actions of their government when the government is repressive and not
freely elected (i.e) people have no means of influencing the government.
>>Did only russians participated in Stalin's repressions?
>
>Yes, primarily. It wasn't the Chinese was it?
Well, probably because russians were the majority of the population of the
soviet union.
>>Was Stalin russian?
>Yes, Stalin was Soviet Russian by choice. Just as Hitler was a German by choice
>just as I am an American by choice.
>What about them? It was their country. Millions of Chinese died under communism
>what about them? What the Chinese did in Tibet, however, is another
>story and is just as abominable as what the Russians did in Ukraine.
What I was trying to prove to you is that russians also victims of the
repressive government , as ukrainians were.
>>If you mean russian-speaking Ukrainians, the majority of them were born in
>>Ukraine and therefore, regardless of the reason their ancestors
>
>You mean parents don't you?
Actually, for the majority of "russian ukrainians" it is true.
Ukraien was a part of russia for 300 years.
>
>>came to
>>Ukraine, they have to have the same rights in Ukraine as ethnic Ukrinians do.
>
>They also have the same rights to go back to their motherland as the French
>ethnics did in Algeria, as the Belgian ethnics did in the Congo as the English
>ethnics did in India, etc. etc.
But it has to be their chice,not the choice of the government. Like for a
jew it is a personal choice to go to Israel or to stay in a caountry of
origin.
>Most Russians, some Ukrainians. In Eastern Ukraine, as you pointed out,
>where Russian domination was exercised for about 300 years all Ukrainians
>were either murdered or heavily Russified and denationalized. The choice
>for them was to be Russified or be killed or deported or terribly oppressed.
>Most were murdered by famine or in Stalin's purges. Those that remained
>are unfortunately heavily Russified, they no longer know who they are.
>But they will little by little. And maybe the ethnic Russians will learn to be
>good Ukrainians. Or they can go home. :-)
Their home is in Ukraine. So they are at home.
BTW, i many regions of eastern Ukraine people speak ukrainian in
countryside and russian in cities.
It is true that many russians came to Ukraine and settled down in cities
(Kharkov etc), but those times it was the ONE country.
>It was very black and white for me when I could find very little Ukrainian literature
>in Kharkiv's bookstores and where most of the people were foreigners
>who spoke a foreign language.
It is a surprise for me because in Kharkov bookstores were ful of
ukrainian books.
>>Because there are russian-speakers there.
>
>Yes, they came to Kharkiv as occupiers and did not want to learn the Ukrainian
>language as good immigrants do when they come to live in a foreign country.
>And the Russians controlled the school system didn't they, so that the
>children of the occupiers did not have to learn and USE the local language.
Theirparents came when there was the one country, so they were not foreign.
They are not immigrants in Ukraine, they belong there.
I belive that if a person was born in a country, he belongs to this
country and has all the rights to be a citizen.
If we follow your ideas, then all the european "occupiers" of the USA
either should pack their staff and get back home to europe ar learn the
language of native americans.
>
>>I see.. Another Mr. Luchins "lie". Looks like in Dan's
>> language "lie" is something he doesn;'t like or does not agree with.
>Yes, the language of the foreign occupiers who have lost imperial control but
>have left their people to keep local control. If these people choose to
>remain in Ukraine then they need to be good Ukrainian citizens and
>support the constitution and laws of Ukraine.
Ukraine joined russia on it's own will 300 years ago.
Then people who were born there are not "occupiers", they belong there.
All the citizens have to abide the law, but in a free country citizens
also have an influence and what laws are made.
If people do not agree with the law they have the right to change it.
>Funny, ethnic Ukrainians did not have any trouble understanding me,
>not even in the Crimea.
It is hard for me to judge your ukrainian, sisnce I never heard you.
>
>Why don't you buy them a computer and send it to them. Don't be
>afraid, it is no longer against the law as in former soviet days. They
>will not be imprisoned for it.
Thank you for a valuable information.:-) I know that having a computer is
not a crime :-))
>
>>unfortunately thye majority of ukrainians just can't afford all that (I hope yet)
>
>Not yet, but hey Rome was not built in a day, and neither was the USA.
>After independence the Americans had a rough go of it for a while also.
I also hope that situation in Ukraine will improve.
>Like I said Rome was not built in a day and neither was the USA.
>And going backwards is not moving forwards. Freedom offers
>possibilities, slavery does not. That applies to the Russians as well.
>I believe that if both Russia and Ukraine continue on the road of reform,
>including how Russia treats her neighbors, then life for both Ukrainians
>and Russians will improve dramatically over the next few years.
>
We'll see what happens.
>Nor I, but your statements about Ukraine were mirrored in his statements
>about Russia, only his statements made out Russia to be in worse condition
>than what you said about Ukraine. A news video also showed the horrible
>living conditions of Russian military officers, worse than anything I've read
>or heard about concerning Ukraine. Moreover, I haven't heard about any
>cities being destroyed in Ukraine the way that Grozny was destroyed.
>Do you think that life in Grozny is better than in any city in Ukraine???
>How about the quality of life in the villages around Grozny?
For some people is. But of course it is worse.
What can you expect from war.
>Maybe the Russians just don't want to work?
>Or maybe the Russians have most of the good jobs in Ukraine, as they
>did before independence.
The problem is that ukrainians working in russia can earn the mobney
they'd never earn in Ukraine.
Alex.
Dan K.
In article <327000...@interlynx.net> Dimitri Ostapenko wrote:
>Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:48:23 -0400
>Dan K. wrote:
>> So you did not see any starving Russian military? Then are you saying that
>> Lebed and Rodionov are liars? And is the VOA article also
> a propaganda piece?
> Common, "starving military". Have you seen them? If you
> judge about what's going on in the
> world from CNN reports, my condolences.
So you deny that the Russian military is fairing badly.
Do you also deny reports that over 90,000 people were killed
in the Chechen war of liberation and that the Russian military was
humiliated and forced to withdraw from Chechnya?
>They tell only what they think is appropriate from
> US viewpoint to show everybody how powerful is US and how
> pitiful is Russia.
Usually IMHO the US news media tends to paint Russia in colors
far rosier than it really is and the US in colors more drab.
>Also, you have to know specifics of russian people. They are
> not so patient as ukrainians, who are used to be ruled by smbd during last 300
> years.....cut....
Mr. Rycar answered you beautifully on this point, I won't belabor it.
................................................stich....................................
>And there's no need to get excited. Stay calm - I'm just looking for the truth
Good, keep looking, I hope you find it.
> and I don't have a grudge against anybody.
That is good too, it is not good to hold grudges.
>Did I say that I like Russia better? Did I
> mension that I approve of Russian government and it's politics? No. I just said that
> LIFE IN RUSSIA IS NOW BETTER THAN IN UKRAINE -
>something that is known for fact by anybody who lives in Ukraine.
Great, that should provide some consolation to the people in Grozny and to
the Russian military officers living in deplorable conditions and to the
mothers and wives who lost sons and husbands in the Chechen war.
>> >I've been to Moscow and I've seen crowds of my countrymen trying to sell
>> >meat, fruits and vegetables right at the square near Kiev station.
>> Since the cost of living is so much higher in Moscow they can probably get
>> better prices for their products in Moscow than in Kyiv, so they are good
>> businessmen, no?
> You don't understand something. They are not professional salespeople.
>I'm talking about farmers, old people, who have to do that because
> othervise it's almost impossible to make ends meet.
Well that's better than lying dead in the dirt like the poor Russian
dead soldiers who were taken to Rostov on the Don and just thrown in a
heap until their family came and took them home for burial.
BTW there is nothing dishonorable about selling your produce,
I have been around a good deal of the world and farmers and old people
all over go to town to sell their produce to survive. And they do it with honor.
What is dishonorable is stealing state assets and selling it for a profit and hiding
those profits in foreign bank accounts.
>And it's especially humiliating because they have to do it in now foreign country.
I think that you got it all wrong, where did you get all these stupid ideas?
>I'm talking not about civilized trade, imagine
> hundreds and hundreds of people standing around big station, trying to sell food to
> moscovites. Don't you think it's humiliating? And this is just one case of many
>equally humiliating.
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HUMILIATING AT ALL ABOUT IT!!!
YOU GOT YOUR VALUES SCREWED UP SOMEWHERE.
I think that you need to get de-Sovietized. Good thing that you are in Canada.
Getting caught stealing state property and selling it is humiliating, not selling the
produce one raised in a railway station in Moscow or anywhere else.
You need a class in morality and values.
>> Why don't the Russians keep their trains clean? I'm sure the Ukrainians were
>> making good money selling their produce otherwise they would not travel to
>> Moscow to sell their products.
> See, you don't understand something again because you never been there
>and never took a train say from Kiev to Moscov. It's UKRAINIAN train I'm
> talking about.
So, no wonder that the trains were dirty, why clean the trains going to Russia? :-)
>> >Yes I personally know many people who immigrated to Russia, because life
>> >is better there.
>> Good, why don't you move back there and work as an agent to get
>> more of the Russians to leave Ukraine for the good life in Russia.
> I like it better here. And why give me advice if I don't tell you what to do?
Easier to fill your belly?
> For example you could have started with the trip to Ukraine to
> see things and then to talk about them. Isn't it a good idea?
A little presumptuous are you? How do you know that I am not speaking
from experience?
>I came here officially, I met requirements of Canadian government,
>I passed the points test and I have nothing to be ashamed of.
> And it's not my fault that I was born on the wrong side of the iron curtain.
What kind of stupid talk is that? Sounds like you got a personality disorder
and some kind of weird guilt complexes. First time I heard a new Ukrainian
immigrant talking like that. You running away from something?
>> >I came from Ukraine (Kiev),
>> >just like probably your parents and relatives did long time search of a better life.
No, not searching for a better life, they left because they knew what the Russians
would do when they returned to Halychyna. Their fears were confirmed after
the war. Everyone's land was confiscated, many Ukrainian patriots were shot,
thousands including many in my family were sent to Siberia.
My family was lucky to get out and survive the battle front.
>> Most of the Ukrainians in the USA came to the States for political reasons
>> not to fill their bellies. Most of them did not want to leave Ukraine.
> Yeah, right. And nobody was helping germans. And nobody was afraid that
>he would be killed by his own people if he stayed.
You idiot, all of Halychyna welcomed the Germans as liberators. Unfortunately
they did not know that the Germans were governed by a force as evil as was
Russia. Do some studying and don't just lay around watching TV and filling
your belly after work.
>> Dmitri, if you are Ukrainian by both parents why don't you write your name
>> like a Ukrainian, ie. Dmytro rather than like a Russian, Dmitri?
> This is my business.
Zrusifikovaniy khakhol are you?
>And why don't you sign as Danylo, or is DAN typical Ukrainian name?
If my name was Danylo then Dan would be a short form here in the US
or in Canada would it not? I thought you were from Ukraine, don't you
know that many names have short or familiar forms there? But we are
in the West are we not? And here the correct form of Dmytro is Dmytro
not Dmitri. Now a zrusifikovaniy khakhol would use Dmitri as he would have
no shame or honor. I have never yet met a Ukrainian with any patriotic
feelings who did not immediately change the spelling of his name after
receiving the info that you have. But if you are a Dmitri then we know
who you are!
> I agree, Ukrainian was strangled by Russian for decades and even ages.
Then why are you speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
>Russian is still dominant language in Eastern Ukraine. There was a move
> to switch to Ukrainian right after Independance was declared, but now everything is
> more or less as it used to be. That doesn't mean that there are no ukrainian
> schools, there's plenty. Only in
> Kiev they opened 50-60 new ukrainian schools when I was there. People
>are now free to decide which school to go and what language to speak.
Thanks to independence!
>Dimitri
Regards, Dan K.
Dan K.
Alexander Luchin wrote:
> What I was trying to prove to you is that russians also victims of the
> repressive government , as ukrainians were.
I never denied that some Russians were also victims of Soviet Russian
repression just as many Germans were victims of the Nazis, nevertheless,
I'm sure you must be aware that the Soviet Union was an extension of the
Soviet Russian state and that everything in the FSU was controlled from
Moscow. If you don't know that then you really need to do some studying.
BTW, did you never hear of the concept "zblyzhnynia narodiv", "melting
together of nations"? And what were they to melt into? A Soviet Russian?
Do you deny that? And wasn't it also true that if you voiced an opinion
contrary to that you were accused either of bourgouis nationalism or
anti-soviet propaganda?
Have you forgotten so much already here in the West?
> >>If you mean russian-speaking Ukrainians, the majority of them were born in
> >>Ukraine and therefore, regardless of the reason their ancestors
> >You mean parents don't you?
> Actually, for the majority of "russian ukrainians" it is true.
> Ukraien was a part of russia for 300 years.
Mr. Luchin, the majority of Russians were sent to Ukraine during the Soviet
era to populate Ukraine after the Soviet Russian perpetrated genocidal famine.
There were very few Russians in Ukraine before the turn of the century.
>they have to have the same rights in Ukraine as ethnic Ukrinians do.
They do under the new Ukrainian constitution.
> >They also have the same rights to go back to their motherland as the French
> >ethnics did in Algeria, as the Belgian ethnics did in the Congo as the English
> >ethnics did in India, etc. etc.
> >In Eastern Ukraine, as you pointed out,
> >where Russian domination was exercised for about 300 years all Ukrainians
> >were either murdered or heavily Russified and denationalized. The choice
> >for them was to be Russified or be killed or deported or terribly oppressed.
> >Most were murdered by famine or in Stalin's purges. Those that remained
> >are unfortunately heavily Russified, they no longer know who they are.
> >But they will little by little. And maybe the ethnic Russians will learn to be
> >good Ukrainians. Or they can go home. :-)
> It is true that many russians came to Ukraine and settled down in cities
> (Kharkov etc), but those times it was the ONE country.
It was not one country. It was a union of republics each which had the
constitutional right to secede from the SU. Of course when someone like
the current Parliamentarian Lukianenko tried to form a political party to
seek secession he was imprisoned and sentenced to death. However, due to
the world outcry he was "merely" incarcerated for seeking his constitutional
rights in advocating Ukrainian secession. BTW Ukraine was a founding member
of the United Nations. Mr. Udovenko, the current foreign minister was Ukraine's
representative to the UN during the soviet era.
You have much studying to do Mr. Luchin.
> >Yes, they came to Kharkiv as occupiers and did not want to learn the Ukrainian
> >language as good immigrants do when they come to live in a foreign country.
> >And the Russians controlled the school system didn't they, so that the
> >children of the occupiers did not have to learn and USE the local language.
> Theirparents came when there was the one country, so they were not foreign.
Wrong as stated above. Don't you remember anything Mr. Luchin. How come
you have such amnesia. What did your Soviet passport state as your
NATIONALITY?
> They are not immigrants in Ukraine, they belong there.
They were occupiers to whom the new Ukrainian government has given
ciizenship much as the US has given US citizenzhip to many illegal
Mexican aliens. Most of these Mexicans are slowly learning English
just as little by little the Russians will be learning Ukrainian as
good Ukrainian citizens.
> Ukraine joined russia on it's own will 300 years ago.
Ukraine did not join Russia you idiot, sorry you deserve it.
Ukraine under Khmelnytsky, contrary to good counsel sought to place
Ukraine under the Czars protectorate because he did not feel that he
could keep Ukraine from falling back under the Polish crown. He
believed that because the Russians were supposed to be good Orthodox
that they would indeed be like Christian brothers and be true to the
agreement. Ukraine was to remain autonomous under the agreement with
no Russian military stationed in Ukraine. Immediately after the signing
the Russians broke the areement including sending troops to Ukraine.
Vyhovsky then fought and defeated the Russians at Konotop.
Please do some studying Mr. Luchin.
> Then people who were born there are not "occupiers", they belong there.
Wrong. Please do some studying. No legal Ukrainian government ever
gave them permission to murder most of the Ukrainian population in
Eastern Ukraine and then to settle there.
> All the citizens have to abide the law, but in a free country citizens
> also have an influence and what laws are made.
> If people do not agree with the law they have the right to change it.
> >Like I said Rome was not built in a day and neither was the USA.
> >And going backwards is not moving forwards. Freedom offers
> >possibilities, slavery does not. That applies to the Russians as well.
> >I believe that if both Russia and Ukraine continue on the road of reform,
> >including how Russia treats her neighbors, then life for both Ukrainians
> >and Russians will improve dramatically over the next few years.
> We'll see what happens.
Sounds like you do not want to see that scenario come to pass.
Still pining for empire?
> The problem is that ukrainians working in russia can earn the mobney
> they'd never earn in Ukraine.
And the Russians in America earn the money they'd never earn in Russia. :-)
> Alex.
Regards, Dan K.
Alexander Luchin
>I never denied that some Russians were also victims of Soviet Russian
Some? Millions....
>repression just as many Germans were victims of the Nazis, nevertheless,
>I'm sure you must be aware that the Soviet Union was an extension of the
>Soviet Russian state and that everything in the FSU was controlled from
>Moscow. If you don't know that then you really need to do some studying.
>BTW, did you never hear of the concept "zblyzhnynia narodiv", "melting
>together of nations"? And what were they to melt into? A Soviet Russian?
>Do you deny that? And wasn't it also true that if you voiced an opinion
>contrary to that you were accused either of bourgouis nationalism or
>anti-soviet propaganda?
>Have you forgotten so much already here in the West?
Dan, I know about that much more than you do, because I lived in the
Soviet Union and you never did.
It is true that after 1917 Russian Empire was about to fall apart, with
Poland, Finland, Ukraine, Baltic States, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaidgan
goingt leav. However, only Finland , Poland and Baltic stateswere
successfull, bolshevics succeeded to keep the rest of the empire together
by putting end to ukrainian and caucasian attempts for independence by
military force, and occupying baltic states later in1940's.
It is true that evrybody who voiced an opinion different from that of an
official one (on any issue) was called and enemy, a western agentetc and
was prosecuted (just like you and George Rycar call "enemies of Ukraine,
murderers etc people who have an opinion different from yours, you just
have no power to prosecute them), but nobody denies that Soviet Union was
not a very good country, although not everything was bad,
there were things that were good, despite evrything else.
>Mr. Luchin, the majority of Russians were sent to Ukraine during the Soviet
>era to populate Ukraine after the Soviet Russian perpetrated genocidal famine.
>There were very few Russians in Ukraine before the turn of the century.
Russians were moving to Ukraine before 1917, especially to big industrial
cities, where there was a need in workinh force, that's why the majority
of Ukrainian cities are russian-speaking. They wer moving during soviet
times as well, but again mostly to big industrial cities .
>They do under the new Ukrainian constitution.
But you don't like that, do you?
>> It is true that many russians came to Ukraine and settled down in cities
>> (Kharkov etc), but those times it was the ONE country.
>
>It was not one country. It was a union of republics each which had the
>constitutional right to secede from the SU. Of course when someone like
>the current Parliamentarian Lukianenko tried to form a political party to
>seek secession he was imprisoned and sentenced to death. However, due to
>the world outcry he was "merely" incarcerated for seeking his constitutional
>rights in advocating Ukrainian secession. BTW Ukraine was a founding member
>of the United Nations. Mr. Udovenko, the current foreign minister was Ukraine's
>representative to the UN during the soviet era.
I know all the "valuable informarion" you presented to me, but still, USSR
was a Federation, which still was the one country, almost like the
USa is the federation of States, for the exception that states do not have
the right to leave the federation. But what is the most important that
there was no separate republic citizenship, there was just one USSR
citizenship.
>
>Wrong as stated above. Don't you remember anything Mr. Luchin. How come
>you have such amnesia. What did your Soviet passport state as your
>NATIONALITY?
As you probably don't know, the Soviet Union was probably the only country
in the world that stated nationality by ethnic origin, not by citizenship.
That's why people had "russian", "jew", "ukrainian" etc in their
passports, being all the citizens of the USSR, while in the most of the
world countries nationality is determined by citizenship.
My passport states my nationality as russian, but it also states my
citizenship as ukrainian (after 1992).
>They were occupiers to whom the new Ukrainian government has given
>ciizenship much as the US has given US citizenzhip to many illegal
>Mexican aliens. Most of these Mexicans are slowly learning English
>just as little by little the Russians will be learning Ukrainian as
>good Ukrainian citizens.
I believ that people who were born in a country can not be called
"occupiers" or "foreighners" or "immigrants" , but belong to this country
and have all the rights to be citizens. Youcomparison to Mexican
immigrants is not good at all, because, first, they werenot born in the
US, but their children who were born in the US arenot considered
immigrants and have all the rights to accuire US citizenship.
Then they came to the US illigally (crossed the borders illigally etc),
while rusians came to Ukraine legally.
>Ukraine did not join Russia you idiot, sorry you deserve it.
Again, very ibntellegent argument. You're persuading me more and more that
you have no respect to the opinion oposite than yours.
>Ukraine under Khmelnytsky, contrary to good counsel sought to place
>Ukraine under the Czars protectorate because he did not feel that he
>could keep Ukraine from falling back under the Polish crown. He
>believed that because the Russians were supposed to be good Orthodox
>that they would indeed be like Christian brothers and be true to the
>agreement. Ukraine was to remain autonomous under the agreement with
>no Russian military stationed in Ukraine. Immediately after the signing
>the Russians broke the areement including sending troops to Ukraine.
>Vyhovsky then fought and defeated the Russians at Konotop.
>Please do some studying Mr. Luchin.
Ukraien had no choice those times, it wasn't strong enough tokeep it's
independence, it had to join one of the neighbouring countries, either
russis, or poland, or turkey, the choice was russia probably because
russia had the same religion as ukrainians did.
>Wrong. Please do some studying. No legal Ukrainian government ever
>gave them permission to murder most of the Ukrainian population in
>Eastern Ukraine and then to settle there.
There was no "legal" ukrainian government except for the government of
Ukrainia SSR, which was recognized by UN as well People just lived by the
legal system which excisted.
>Sounds like you do not want to see that scenario come to pass.
>Still pining for empire?
Why wouldn't I wan tUkraine to be a prosperous democratic states? I was
born and spent most of my life there, I have close relatives and friends
there.
>> The problem is that ukrainians working in russia can earn the mobney
>> they'd never earn in Ukraine.
>
>And the Russians in America earn the money they'd never earn in Russia. :-)
>
Of course, that's why russians go to America and Ukrainians go to Russia.
Alex.
Henrietta Thomas
In article <327441...@ezdial.com>,
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>In article <327000...@interlynx.net> Dimitri Ostapenko wrote:
[...]
Dear Dan,
I have a little job for you. Conduct a survey amongst your friends and
relatives, especially those over 50 years of age, and find out how many
would be willing to stand on street corners selling apples at 10 cents
a throw in order to get a little "bread" to buy a loaf of bread. Ask them
if they would be humiliated.
I will be first on your list. One of my biggest fears as I grow older is
that I might end up on the street doing just that. It would be terribly
embarrassing to me to have to do that in order to survive.
It is you, not Dimitri, who needs a class in morality and values.
I think you have an awful lot to learn.
Henrietta
h...@pop.wwa.com
Gerry Joseph Szachara
How is it possible to know where life is better. That depends on
individual wants and needs. In Ukraine life is more free and less
restricted by a beaurocratic government. Although there are many militsia
walking around and they carry avtomati there is not nearly as many as in
Moscow. Ofcourse no one in their right mind could argue that there is
more products and better opportunity in Ukraine for a better life,
again though depending on what you consider a good life. There is
undoubtedly a better opportunity at a good standard of life in Moscow
than in Ukraine, and likewise Ukraine has many good parts. It is in
general agreed upon that Ukraine is more beautiful than russia, and
undoubtedly has more agricultural potential ie. the bread basket!
Russia has so much mineral natural resources, ie. siberia! Nizhnivartovsk
etc! The best situation would be if they could work together somehow.
ukraine needs energy, and russia can surely provide this. Russia needs
food, and ukraine has the potential to provide this. --
HTTP://WWW.OSWEGO.EDU/~SZACHARA
__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--\
/ "Uncle" Gerry "hrushka" "Jarov" 'Joe' Joseph Szachara\
\--------------------------------------------------\
\------------------------------------------------------\
\ Gerry Joseph Szachara \ "Drinking is a part of the\
\ ondaga Hall / Russes, without it we /
\ SUNY O \ cannot live" /
\ Oswego, NY 6 / -Prince Vladimir /
\-----------------------------------------------/
\ Dai Bog tebe zdorovya i schastya /
\ i mira! /
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Dan K.
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> Dear Dan,
> I have a little job for you. Conduct a survey amongst your friends and
> relatives, especially those over 50 years of age, and find out how many
> would be willing to stand on street corners selling apples at 10 cents
> a throw in order to get a little "bread" to buy a loaf of bread. Ask them
> if they would be humiliated.
> I will be first on your list. One of my biggest fears as I grow older is
> that I might end up on the street doing just that. It would be terribly
> embarrassing to me to have to do that in order to survive.
> It is you, not Dimitri, who needs a class in morality and values.
> I think you have an awful lot to learn.
> Henrietta
> h...@pop.wwa.com
Dear Henrietta:
I guess you and Dmitri have a lot in common. :-)
Regards, Dan K.
BTW, selling at open markets is very common in Eastern Europe
and in many parts of Western Europe too I might add not to
mention the Middle East and the rest of the world.
You know most of the world does not have Safeways,
A&Ps, Publix, Winn Dixie, etc..
Dan K.
Alexander Luchin wrote:
> >BTW, selling at open markets is very common in Eastern Europe
> >and in many parts of Western Europe too I might add not to
> >mention the Middle East and the rest of the world.
> >You know most of the world does not have Safeways,
> >A&Ps, Publix, Winn Dixie, etc..
> Yes, it is common, but all the countries you mentioned aren't very rich
> and in most case people do it not for entertainment or to earn some extra
> cash, but to survive.
> Alex.
Brilliant observation Mr. Luchin, they also do it with honor
and not in humiliation.
Dan K.
Dan K.
Alexander Luchin wrote:
> In article <3274FE...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
> >I never denied that some Russians were also victims of Soviet Russian
> Some? Millions....
> >repression just as many Germans were victims of the Nazis, nevertheless,
> >I'm sure you must be aware that the Soviet Union was an extension of the
> >Soviet Russian state and that everything in the FSU was controlled from
> >Moscow. If you don't know that then you really need to do some studying.
> >BTW, did you never hear of the concept "zblyzhnynia narodiv", "melting
> >together of nations"? And what were they to melt into? A Soviet Russian?
> >Do you deny that? And wasn't it also true that if you voiced an opinion
> >anti-soviet propaganda?
> >Have you forgotten so much already here in the West?
> Dan, I know about that much more than you do, because I lived in the
> Soviet Union and you never did.
So why do you always make out yourself to be so ignorant? A prevaricator are you?
..............snip for brevity.......................................
> It is true that evrybody who voiced an opinion different from that of an
> official one (on any issue) was called and enemy, a western agentetc and
> was prosecuted
Finally a little truth.
>(just like you and George Rycar call "enemies of Ukraine, murderers etc
>people who have an opinion different from yours,
Mr. Luchin, Mr. Luchin, first a little truth and now a baldfaced LIE.
Now you are not only twisting facts and playing ignorant but you
are fabricating lies just like the KGB used to do.
I have NEVER called people murderers who hold opinions different
from mine and I have NEVER used the term "enemies of Ukraine" AFAICR in any
of my posts. I have never called either you or any other sovok who posts here a
murderer. An idiot, yes of course, a murderer never.
>you just have no power to prosecute them),
Come, come Mr. Luchin how could I ever prosecute anyone, I am not even a lawyer.
>but nobody denies that Soviet Union was
> not a very good country, although not everything was bad,
> there were things that were good, despite evrything else.
Yes, Mr. Luchin, I've heard Germans say the same thing about Hitler's
Third Reich.
> >Mr. Luchin, the majority of Russians were sent to Ukraine during the Soviet
> >era to populate Ukraine after the Soviet Russian perpetrated genocidal famine.
> >There were very few Russians in Ukraine before the turn of the century.
> Russians were moving to Ukraine before 1917, especially to big industrial
> cities, where there was a need in workinh force, that's why the majority
> of Ukrainian cities are russian-speaking.
Yes, Russian colonists were sent to Ukraine by the Czars also but it
was after 1917, when the major Ukrainian industrialization occured that the massive
Russian influx happened, during the soviet era, not before.
As I said there were few Russians in Ukraine prior to the soviet era
and the perpetration of the genocidal famine by Soviet Russia's
leaders to destroy the Ukrainian nation.
>They wer moving during soviet times as well, but again mostly to big industrial cities .
> >> It is true that many russians came to Ukraine and settled down in cities
> >> (Kharkov etc), but those times it was the ONE country.
> >It was not one country. It was a union of republics each which had the
> >constitutional right to secede from the SU. Of course when someone like
> >the current Parliamentarian Lukianenko tried to form a political party to
> >seek secession he was imprisoned and sentenced to death. However, due to
> >the world outcry he was "merely" incarcerated for seeking his constitutional
> >rights in advocating Ukrainian secession. BTW Ukraine was a founding member
> >of the United Nations. Mr. Udovenko, the current foreign minister was Ukraine's
> >representative to the UN during the soviet era.
> I know all the "valuable informarion" you presented to me, but still, USSR
> was a Federation, which still was the one country,
It wasn't one country, it was one Evil Empire that devoured other countries and
destroyed their statehoods. Many of those countries are now free and others
like Chechnya are still struggling to get free from Russia's domination.
> almost like the
> USa is the federation of States, for the exception that states do not have
> the right to leave the federation. But what is the most important that
> there was no separate republic citizenship, there was just one USSR
> citizenship.
Yes, and you were one of the duped soviets who believed that it was one country.
And today you still think that it was one country. I bet you still carry your old
soviet passport around with you to remind you of your old soviet citizenship.
> >They were occupiers to whom the new Ukrainian government has given
> >ciizenship much as the US has given US citizenzhip to many illegal
> >Mexican aliens. Most of these Mexicans are slowly learning English
> >just as little by little the Russians will be learning Ukrainian as
> >good Ukrainian citizens.
> I believ that people who were born in a country can not be called
> "occupiers" or "foreighners" or "immigrants" , but belong to this country
> and have all the rights to be citizens. Youcomparison to Mexican
> immigrants is not good at all, because, first, they werenot born in the
> US, but their children who were born in the US arenot considered
> immigrants and have all the rights to accuire US citizenship.
> Then they came to the US illigally (crossed the borders illigally etc),
> while rusians came to Ukraine legally.
Wrong Luchin, until Ukraine was free you were a soviet Russian occupier whose
parents were sent to Ukraine as Russian colonists. You were never invited by
a legitimate Ukrainian government to enter Ukraine. The Soviet government of
Ukraine was like the Vichy government of France under the German occupation,
it was not a legitimate French government. If Ukraine had kept its
independence after the collapse of the Russian Czarist Empire you would NEVER
have been born in Ukraine. So cut the crap Luchin. Just be happy that the
new Ukrainian government gave you amnesty and allowed you to remain in Ukraine
instead of trying to work out a deal with Russia to repatriate you and your people
back to Russia, your motherland.
> >Ukraine did not join Russia you idiot, sorry you deserve it.
> Again, very ibntellegent argument. You're persuading me more and more that
> you have no respect to the opinion oposite than yours.
Wrong, I have no respect for opinions that are blatantly infused with soviet
thinking and irrationality and historical revisionism not to mention deception
and as Mr. Rycar would say, prevarication, of which you are a master.
> >> The problem is that ukrainians working in russia can earn the mobney
> >> they'd never earn in Ukraine.
> >And the Russians in America earn the money they'd never earn in Russia. :-)
> Of course, that's why russians go to America and Ukrainians go to Russia.
Why don't you write a letter to Clinton asking him to let in more "persecuted"
Russians from Ukraine because the Ukrainians are "forcing" them to use the
state language.
> Alex.
Regards, Dan K.
Danilka
> The animalistic
> instincts of soviets, and Western "liberals" I might add , teach to > seek to
> have all been satisfied then one can seek to satisfy higher human > values.
For how long should the people suffer from those fucked up philosophers
like Marx who used the whole nations to conduct their *interesting*
research in sociology and philosophy?? "Higher human values"??
Sorry, pal, THE ONLY THING PEOPLE WANT IS TO STUFF THEIR BELLIES WITH
"KOLBASA" AS YOU FINELY PUT IT. Do you know what ARE the highest
priorities of the human race? Yeah, Maslow, Darwin, all that stuff. Sex,
food and shelter. And once they are satisfied, the next highest priority
is more sex, more food, and a TV set in their "shelter". It goes on and
on and on. Sorry, I just cannot understand people like you who seem to
think that "masses" are best suited for social experimentation. Sorry,
the crowd is not a guinea pig. Let it be the way you want to be. You
are disappointed that no one will watch the Swan Lake unless they are
forced? Well, thats your problem. "PEOPLE", "MASSES" are ignorant fucks.
Learn to live with it. We had enough of experiments on Russians and
others by the Communists.
Its ironic to note how you accuse the Soviets (yeah, with that very Swan
Lake I mentioned) who created a rather elitist society (how often did
they play the Rolling Stones on the radio back in the 60s?) of teaching
people to "stuff their bellies first". Pardon me? A "NEW SOVIET MAN"??
> So I do not find it hard to understand why you and your soviet cohorts
> can not understand that LIFE in Ukraine is indeed better than in Russia,
> even IF in some cities like Moscow the economic life for the majority may
> be a LITTLE better than the ECONOMIC life for the majority say in Kyiv
> or other Ukrainian cities. IT IS ALL A MATTER OF VALUES!
FOR YOU. Not for the guy trying to make ends meet on a 25 dollars a
month salary.
> but perhaps you are too busy studying or working in America
> to make money and fill your belly and and satisfy your other animalistic
> appetites to bother learning about higher values.
I respect your strive for the perfect society, kinda the one ancient
greeks dreamt about. A society of painters, writers, poets and
musicians. Of course they usually forget to mention slaves among the
population of such a perfect state.
Listen, you will NOT succeed in creating a New Communist Man, or
whatever Marx called the one that was supposed to inhabit the first
Communist state in the world. You will NOT be able to force everyone to
read Anna Karenina instead of a sports section in a newspaper. You will
not be able to FORCE the kids to listen to Beethoven instead of
Metallica. Sorry. You will not disprove me in any way. It was a fact,
not an opinion, and I hope you see why.
>
> Happy lucky Russians, all of the Russians living in Ukraine should > know
> such statistics, they would be boarding trains day and night to go live back
> in the Motherland. Maybe the US should help those poor Russians suffering
> in Ukraine to repatriate back to the sweet Russian Paradise.
Ukraine should be split into the Ukrainian and Russian sections as far
as I am concerned. All of the Ukrainian and bordering Russian oblasti
should have a referendum which will decide whether a particular oblast
wish to remain under Russian or Ukrainian control. It should have been
done several years ago. Division of the Russian empire into Ukraine and
Russia was ridiculous and haphazard. People should live where they WANT
to live. And the only way to find out is by a referendum. I guess
Ukraine will never go for that, unless it wants to lose everything to
the east of the Kiev oblast.. And maybe the Kiev oblast itself. Yep.
Those poor Russians living in Dnepropetrovsk are indeeed "poor
Russians"/
> So why aren't all the millions of Russians who were settled in Ukraine,
> to populate Ukraine after the Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians,
> moving back to Russia where life is so good? Are they afraid to get their
> hands bloody in places like Chechnya, but now that the war is over they
> should start leaving in droves.
Perhaps you dont realise that for 10 million people to move from one
large area to another is not that easy. you are not playing toy soldiers
here, pal. Grow up.
> >>Good, why don't you move back there and work as an agent to get
> >>more of the Russians to leave Ukraine for the good life in Russia.
What IS Ukraine? To me its a small region west and south of Kiev oblast.
> >Moreover, the majority of those who emigrate from Ukraine to
> > Russia are UKRAINIANS, not Russians.
The majority of those who emigrate from THE PARTS OF RUSSIA NOW UNDER
UKRAINIAN CONTROL to Russia are ..whatever. Sorry for nationalism and
megalomania. Thats what we Russians are.
> But for those who really
> don't, the Russians murdered between 7 and 10 million Ukrainian farmers in
> Eastern Ukraine during the early 1930s and also murdered thousands of
> Ukraine's best people including teachers, priests, doctors, lawyers, the
> whole Ukrainian intelligencia,
If you also want to know "The Russians" killed several millions of
Russian farmers, teachers, priests, doctors, lawyers and intelligentsia.
Masochists?
Danilka
Alexander Luchin wrote:
>
> In article <32758B...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
> >
> >BTW, selling at open markets is very common in Eastern Europe
> >and in many parts of Western Europe too I might add not to
> >mention the Middle East and the rest of the world.
> >You know most of the world does not have Safeways,
> >A&Ps, Publix, Winn Dixie, etc..
>
> Yes, it is common, but all the countries you mentioned aren't very >rich
Paris, France?
> and in most case people do it not for entertainment
Only from an American. I know Americans think that SHOPPING is fun. But
Selling?? Alex, glupaya shutka.
> or to earn some extra
> cash, but to survive.
If you think street vendors are only trying to survive.. I always
thought they made better money than Russian high school teachers.
> Alex.
Alexander Luchin
In article <32758B...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>
>BTW, selling at open markets is very common in Eastern Europe
>and in many parts of Western Europe too I might add not to
>mention the Middle East and the rest of the world.
>You know most of the world does not have Safeways,
>A&Ps, Publix, Winn Dixie, etc..
Yes, it is common, but all the countries you mentioned aren't very rich
and in most case people do it not for entertainment or to earn some extra
cash, but to survive.
Alex.
Alexander Luchin
In article <3276FA...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>> Soviet Union and you never did.
>So why do you always make out yourself to be so ignorant? A prevaricator are you?
We never discussed situation with human rights in the USSR, we discussed
mostly the rights of russian population in Ukraine and the question on
whether you can blame the whole russian nation for the crimes of stalinism.
Your problem that when you hear "union" yuo always think of the USSR, not
of USA or EU.
>
>Mr. Luchin, Mr. Luchin, first a little truth and now a baldfaced LIE.
>Now you are not only twisting facts and playing ignorant but you
>are fabricating lies just like the KGB used to do.
>I have NEVER called people murderers who hold opinions different
>from mine and I have NEVER used the term "enemies of Ukraine" AFAICR in any
>of my posts. I have never called either you or any other sovok who posts here a
>murderer. An idiot, yes of course, a murderer never.
I wrote about you and your fellow George Rycar both (maybe I should've
written about both of you separately, sorry)).
You used the word "idiot" a lot of times towards the people who had an
opinoion different from yours,
you used the term "enemies of Ukraine" regarding russian people in cremea,
who want to separate from Ukraine.
George Rycar always (it's just his good habit) calls his opponents
different names, from moron to assliker, a few times he called his
opponents murderers or blamed them for the crimes they never commited. He
just couldn't realise that neither I not Tereshenko or Sorokin didn't kill
any ukrainians.
>
>Yes, Mr. Luchin, I've heard Germans say the same thing about Hitler's
>Third Reich.
>
I can explain you what was good in the USSR, if you want to. Of course we
can't
say that USSR was good and free country just because something was good.
>
>Yes, Russian colonists were sent to Ukraine by the Czars also but it
>was after 1917, when the major Ukrainian industrialization occured that the massive
>Russian influx happened, during the soviet era, not before.
>As I said there were few Russians in Ukraine prior to the soviet era
>and the perpetration of the genocidal famine by Soviet Russia's
>leaders to destroy the Ukrainian nation.
I don't think they "were sent by the Czar" they just came..
>It wasn't one country, it was one Evil Empire that devoured other countries and
>destroyed their statehoods. Many of those countries are now free and others
>like Chechnya are still struggling to get free from Russia's domination.
Independence is not equel to political freedom. Many of those countries
are now "free from russia" but very far from being "politically free".
>Yes, and you were one of the duped soviets who believed that it was one country.
>And today you still think that it was one country. I bet you still carry your old
>soviet passport around with you to remind you of your old soviet citizenship.
Legally and factually it wasd the one country.
Yes, I still have my old soviet passport because ukraine started
introducing new passports just very recently. Before that it just
"modified " old soviet passports by putting a seal "Ukraine" and a
trident "( of a very bad quality, BTW). SE1~o, it was ukrainian government
who wanted ukrainian citizens to keep their old passports:-)
>
>Wrong Luchin, until Ukraine was free you were a soviet Russian occupier whose
>parents were sent to Ukraine as Russian colonists. You were never invited by
>a legitimate Ukrainian government to enter Ukraine. The Soviet government of
>Ukraine was like the Vichy government of France under the German occupation,
>it was not a legitimate French government. If Ukraine had kept its
>independence after the collapse of the Russian Czarist Empire you would NEVER
>have been born in Ukraine. So cut the crap Luchin. Just be happy that the
>new Ukrainian government gave you amnesty and allowed you to remain in Ukraine
>instead of trying to work out a deal with Russia to repatriate you and your people
>back to Russia, your motherland.
BTW, Dan, again , we have differen topinions on human rights- I belive
-people were born ina country- they belong to that country- you have some
king of different beliefes .The kind of beliefs that led to the war in
Bosnia and to many other ethnic conflicts, the kind of beliefs I can
neither accept nor respect.
Repatriating people would be prosecuting them for the crimes they didn't do
(for "occupying Ukraine" and "murdering" Ukrainians), but for what their
parents maybe did. BTW, it was very common during Stalin's times to
prosecute children for the "crimes" of their parents- so what's the
differents between you and stalinists you dislike that much? Looks like
not a big difference.
And as for those people who came to Ukraine- just a few of them really
participated in crimes, but for the majority of them their only crime was
just living acoording to the legal system that existed when USSR was the
ONE country and people could move anywhere regardless of their ethnic
origin.
Looks like you just wan to build "uUkraine for ukrainians", but looks like
we already learned this leson. Germany for germans.. remember?
If Ukrainain government tries to repatriate any of Ukraine's
inhabitants , it will no longer be a democratic government, but a fascist
one. I hope it will never happen, but it might if people with mentality
like yours will come to power (the chances are very slim thoug).
Well, then the word will see at least the true nature of nationalism (just
one more time).
Alex.
Anubis
In article <552ru5$o...@kirin.wwa.com>, Henrietta Thomas <h...@pop.wwa.com>
wrote:
> ....
> I have a little job for you. Conduct a survey amongst your friends and
> relatives, especially those over 50 years of age, and find out how many
> would be willing to stand on street corners selling apples at 10 cents
> a throw in order to get a little "bread" to buy a loaf of bread. Ask them
> if they would be humiliated.
>
> I will be first on your list. One of my biggest fears as I grow older is
> that I might end up on the street doing just that. It would be terribly
> embarrassing to me to have to do that in order to survive.
But Henrietta - surely if it serves to advance the culture it will be
"worth the price"! I think the jury is still out on any potential
"positive effects" arising from old people being humiliated by standing on
street corners selling apples in order to afford a bit of bread....
> It is you, not Dimitri, who needs a class in morality and values.
"The question to be asked is whether it was worth the price paid. Some
people would say yes; others would say no. I think the jury is still
out." - Henrietta Thomas, on the death of millions of people during the
Stalinist Terror.
Now - WHO needs a lesson in morality and values??
--
Larisa Anu...@Starbase.NeoSoft.com
"Yes, evil comes in many forms, whether it be a man-eating cow or Joseph
Stalin, but you can't let the package hide the pudding! Evil is just
plain bad! You don't cotton to it. You gotta smack it on the nose with
the rolled-up newspaper of goodness! Bad dog! Bad dog!" - The Tick
Alexander Luchin
In article <3276FB...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>
>
>Brilliant observation Mr. Luchin, they also do it with honor
>and not in humiliation.
>
>Dan K.
Dan I think you should try to sell something (meat or vegetables) on a market
near railway station in Moscow to understand why it is humiliating. Agai,
you're writing about things yuo new nothig about.
Alex.
Dan K.
> >Dan K.
Luchyn,
If it is a humiliating experience to go to Russia and sell produce in a
"farmers" market then it is just another example of how the Muscovites have
taken something good and noble and debased it. They have been doing this all
through their history in their own country and then tried to impose these
sick values on their neighbors and the world. The Muscovites took Christian
priests and humiliated them and burned their churches and either murdered them
by the thousands or sent them to Siberia, they came to Ukraine and humiliated the
good honest Ukrainian farmers called them names like "kulak" or "kurkul'"
and debased the good honest profession of independent private farming. They
then proceeded to confiscate the properties of these farmers and subjected them to a
most cruel death, death by starvation. Those Ukrainians that survived the
famine were humiliated and looked down on for being Ukrainians especially if
they refused to be Russified and showed pride in their culture and history.
Many of these were then humiliated by being called "nationalists" and sent
to prison or laabor camps on trumped up charges. You well know this was
practiced by Russians in Ukraine in all walks of life just as the Russians
ALWAYS humiliated the Central Asians and always called them "yellows".
It is just a part of Russian mass culture to humiliate that which is noble
and holy.
Regards, Dan K.
P.S. I truly believe that it was God's hand that brought down the Evil Russian
Empire for all the evil which they did against Christians and against their
neighbors. To this day noone can uderstand that it all happened so suddenly,
but of course the world will not acknowledge the hand of God.
Henrietta Thomas
In article <32784D...@ezdial.com>,
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
A postscript to Alexander Luchin:
>P.S. I truly believe that it was God's hand that brought down the Evil
>Russian Empire for all the evil which they did against Christians and
>against their neighbors. To this day noone can uderstand that it all
>happened so suddenly, but of course the world will not acknowledge the
>hand of God.
If you believe that the hand of God brought down the Russian Empire, then
you must believe that the hand of God created the Russian Empire. It also
follows that the hand of God put both Lenin and Stalin in power, and that
God intended for everything to happen which happened in USSR.
Henrietta
h...@pop.wwa.com
Alexander Luchin
Karaleshen,
>
>If it is a humiliating experience to go to Russia and sell produce in a
>"farmers" market then it is just another example of how the Muscovites have
>taken something good and noble and debased it.
The problems is not with Moscovites, who are pretty happy about being able
to buy cheap food from ukrainians, but the problem is that ukrainians,
many of whom are elderly people, first have to take a long uncomfortable
trip by train, then they're harrased on Ukrainian-Russian border by.. not
russian "their own" ukrainian custom officers, whom they have to bribe,
then they often have to stand for hous, sometimes in rain, snow or cold
(depends on a season of course), and then they often harrased by local
Moscow or whatever police who demands bribes from them (so they see them
as addiional income) and by local mafia as well.
They have been doing this all
>through their history in their own country and then tried to impose these
>sick values on their neighbors and the world. The Muscovites took Christian
>priests and humiliated them and burned their churches and either murdered them
>by the thousands or sent them to Siberia,
You probably don't know that Christianity was an official religion of
russia so it strange to hear about "Moscovites" destroying churches and
killing prists. If you want to speak about times after 1917, then you
probably should speak about communists, not "moscovites" or russians.
they came to Ukraine and humiliated the
>good honest Ukrainian farmers called them names like "kulak" or "kurkul'"
>and debased the good honest profession of independent private farming.
As well as thousands of russian farmers were "raskulacheni" and sent to
Siberia.
Alex.
Andrey Nikolaev
Dan K. (dkoro...@ezdial.com) wrote:
: >No.
: >>Good for him.
As persone who lives in Ukraine (Kyiv or better Kiev) I can _state_
that life in Russia is definetly better then in Ukrain. Because
I'm student of Mosc. Inst. of Physics and technology I have to
visit Dolgoprudnyj (small town near Moscow) quite often. And
I see big differences between life in Kiev and life in Moscow/Moscow
region.
Dan asked why persons who lives in Ukraine and are russians don't migrate to motherland? Answer is simple: They afraid to leave their houses and go somewhere. I'd ask him why f.e. ppl from Spain don't migrate to USA? The level of
life in US is higher then in Spain but I didn't hear about large
migration streams. The difference between life levels in Ukraine
and Russia is not _very_ large but it exists.
As for 'freedom' I'd ask Dan do u remember who voted for 'freedom'
and when? If u don't I'll tell u that. For independence voted 'red
parlament' 22th of august 1991. Before that moment the question
about independence was failed 3/4 majority couple of times. But
22th of august only 3 'senators'ppl was against and all others said
'yes'. Question why? I remember this time very well. Ukrainian
politic elite simply awaited who will overcome in Moscow. 'Second
president' made quite bluring TV speech and nothing more. Neither
parlament declarations neither international affairs activity.
Nothing. Silence. Then from all holes in floor suddenly appeared
thousands of patriotes and Ukraine become 'independent'.
The only reason I can see is that our local politic elite simply
afraid and had their pants wet. Their afraid returning of 'hard'
times but after it become clear that restoration of 'empire' failed
they afraided punch from Yeltzin for being chicks. Well the God
will judge them not me...
As for trains as far as I know from my travels betwen Moscow and
Kiev most of all trains are from Kiev depot (I mean cars), Locomotives
are usually changed a few times and half of way it's Ukrainian and
half of way it's Russian engines. It's common practice.
I'd like to point attention of our 'ukrainian patriotes' on few interesting facts. Acording to different estimations 30%-60% of ppl in Ukraine are
russian speaking. But now it's going process of forcing them to
use only ukrainian mass media. Example: 2 weeks ago the last time
which was given to Russian TV in Ukraine. Instead of many Russain famous
and interesting programs now we have 'region TV time' It means that this time
were given to regional TV centres. I don't have anything against Ukrainian
folklor songs and dancing kozaks but please not round time ! Well the only
good point in it is that my bill for electricity will be lower I don't see
TV now.
More painfull is that acording orders of our goverment all sellers of
'foregine' printed media have to pay additional taxes. Of course
'russian' means foregine too and I can add that 80% of those foregine
magazines and newspapers are russian (I believe more then 80%).
So our present national goverment is trying to teach us to love Ukraine
(and the methods of performing it remind me methods of former USSR, so I think
result will be the same) And nothing wondering in it, ppl who do it are the _same_ who served to Moscow 10 years before. Simply those painted foxes now are
blue/yellow.
Well one more interesting fact is that our goverment is highly corrupted.
I think Columbia with drug cortails was kids jokes in comparising with
corruption / crime in Ukraine. And west will get many cool surprises from
this side.
I've to say many many ... but it doesn't matter. I like those who argue
about life in former USSR living somewhere. Come and get some. One my friend
said me once I'm visiting sinagogue and reading Torah not because I'm so
ortodoxal jew but I want to reminde to all that I'M JEW. I want to remind to
all that I'm RUSSIAN who was born here who is citizen of Ukraine as well
as those 'Ura' patriotes.
Well, as for repressions I can say that it's not honest to say things like
russians murdered xxx millions of ukrainian farmers, intellectual elite, etc.
Not russians but comunist regime. Do u remember who guarded Lenin and was
an elite force of revolution? Latvian divisions were. And they shot Tzar
and his family. But I never said and never will say that latvians killed
Tzar and millions of ppl. Stalin was from Georgia, Dzderzhinsky was half
poland/half (I don't remember but it seems to me that german) . And do u
know how many russian farmers was murdered? I think not less then Ukrainian.
So don't flame russians for era USSR u can flame Ukrainian ppl as well
(and Kravchuk who was one from Commy Party Elite )
As for forcing Ukrainians to speak russian while USSR time and don't giving
an ability to learn Ukrainian language. May be it will be interesting for u
when I was 7 y.o. (1980) and had to attend middle school for my parents was big
problem to find me russian school. I had to go by bus 30 mins. to my first
school despite the fact I had two schools in 5 mins of walk from my house.
But those schools was ukrainian and russian groups in those schools was full.
It's now time propaganda about ukrainian language discrimination in Ukraine
while USSR times.
with best regards. Andrey
Dmitry Gryaznov
Danilka wrote:
>
> Alexander Luchin wrote:
>
> > or to earn some extra
> > cash, but to survive.
>
> thought they made better money than Russian high school teachers.
Nope. They don't - the street vendors, that is, not the owners of
street shops and kiosks (larioks). Most of the street vendors indeed
make barely enough money to survive. Their only advantage in comparison
with the Russian teachers is that the vendors get their money as soon as
they sell something, while the teachers have to wait (in vain) for several
months to get their salary.
--
Sincerely, | VirusLab, Dr.Solomon's Software Ltd.
Dmitry O. Gryaznov | Alton House, Office Park, Gatehouse Way,
Senior Research Consultant | Aylesbury, Bucks HP19 3XU, United Kingdom
E-mail: gr...@dial.pipex.com | Tel: +44 (0)1296 318700
WWW: http://www.drsolomon.com | Fax: +44 (0)1296 318734
Dmitry Gryaznov
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>
> In article <32784D...@ezdial.com>,
> "Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>
>
> >P.S. I truly believe that it was God's hand that brought down the Evil
> >Russian Empire for all the evil which they did against Christians and
> >against their neighbors. To this day noone can uderstand that it all
> >happened so suddenly, but of course the world will not acknowledge the
> >hand of God.
>
> If you believe that the hand of God brought down the Russian Empire, then
> you must believe that the hand of God created the Russian Empire. It also
> follows that the hand of God put both Lenin and Stalin in power, and that
> God intended for everything to happen which happened in USSR.
This would be true in Islam, where "no leaf falls of a tree without Allakh's
will". But not necessarilly so in Christianity, where freedom of human's will
is recognized.
Henrietta Thomas
In article <558hq8$e...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>,
anu...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Anubis) wrote:
>In article <552ru5$o...@kirin.wwa.com>, Henrietta Thomas <h...@pop.wwa.com>
>wrote:
>> ....
>> I have a little job for you. Conduct a survey amongst your friends and
>> relatives, especially those over 50 years of age, and find out how many
>> would be willing to stand on street corners selling apples at 10 cents
>> a throw in order to get a little "bread" to buy a loaf of bread. Ask
>> them if they would be humiliated.
>>
>> I will be first on your list. One of my biggest fears as I grow older is
>> that I might end up on the street doing just that. It would be terribly
>> embarrassing to me to have to do that in order to survive.
>
>But Henrietta - surely if it serves to advance the culture it will be
>"worth the price"! I think the jury is still out on any potential
>"positive effects" arising from old people being humiliated by standing on
>street corners selling apples in order to afford a bit of bread....
That is exactly what today's so-called "reformers" are saying. In fact,
what they would like most of all is for all these old sovki to hurry up
and die. They are standing in the way of the reforms.
>> It is you, not Dimitri, who needs a class in morality and values.
>
>"The question to be asked is whether it was worth the price paid. Some
>people would say yes; others would say no. I think the jury is still
>out." - Henrietta Thomas, on the death of millions of people during the
>Stalinist Terror.
And it will be out a long time on the current "reform" as well.
>Now - WHO needs a lesson in morality and values??
The people (East and West) who couldn't wait to destroy USSR and plunge
the former Soviet peoples into anarchy.
It might interest you to know that:
a) the population of Russia is now DOWN to 147.5 million, due mainly to
a dramatic increase of deaths over births;
b) thousands of pensioners recently demonstrated in Karelia because their
pension checks have been delayed too long;
c) a young woman (age 38) recently tried to kill herself by immolation
because she feels she can no longer live "this way."
And this is only the beginning, not the end.
Henrietta
h...@pop.wwa.com
netscape
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>
> In article <558hq8$e...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>,
> anu...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Anubis) wrote:
>
> >In article <552ru5$o...@kirin.wwa.com>, Henrietta Thomas <h...@pop.wwa.com>
> >wrote:
> >> ....
> >> I have a little job for you. Conduct a survey amongst your friends and
> >> relatives, especially those over 50 years of age, and find out how many
> >> would be willing to stand on street corners selling apples at 10 cents
> >> a throw in order to get a little "bread" to buy a loaf of bread. Ask
> >> them if they would be humiliated.
> >>
> >> I will be first on your list. One of my biggest fears as I grow older is
> >> that I might end up on the street doing just that. It would be terribly
> >> embarrassing to me to have to do that in order to survive.
> >
> >But Henrietta - surely if it serves to advance the culture it will be
> >"worth the price"! I think the jury is still out on any potential
> >"positive effects" arising from old people being humiliated by standing on
> >street corners selling apples in order to afford a bit of bread....
>
> That is exactly what today's so-called "reformers" are saying. In fact,
> what they would like most of all is for all these old sovki to hurry up
> and die. They are standing in the way of the reforms.
>
> >
> >"The question to be asked is whether it was worth the price paid. Some
> >people would say yes; others would say no. I think the jury is still
> >out." - Henrietta Thomas, on the death of millions of people during the
> >Stalinist Terror.
>
> And it will be out a long time on the current "reform" as well.
>
> >Now - WHO needs a lesson in morality and values??
>
> The people (East and West) who couldn't wait to destroy USSR and plunge
> the former Soviet peoples into anarchy.
>
> It might interest you to know that:
>
> a) the population of Russia is now DOWN to 147.5 million, due mainly to
> a dramatic increase of deaths over births;
>
> b) thousands of pensioners recently demonstrated in Karelia because their
> pension checks have been delayed too long;
>
> c) a young woman (age 38) recently tried to kill herself by immolation
> because she feels she can no longer live "this way."
>
> And this is only the beginning, not the end.
Also
One Russian scientist recently committed suicide (not being paid or
being underpaid for eternity) [Read in clari.world.europe.russia]
Large industrial sector is run at half capacity. Many de facto are
bankrupt.
People drink, use drugs. In rural areas, each third becomes an
alkoholic. People do not see future for themselves.
What is next?
Sincerely,
Viktor
>
> Henrietta
> h...@pop.wwa.com
Dan Korolyshyn
Danilka wrote:
> For how long should the people suffer from those fucked up
philosophers
> like Marx who used the whole nations to conduct their
*interesting*
> research in sociology and philosophy??
I don't think that Marx did any experimenting himself, he left that
to
his Russian friends.
>"Higher human values"??
> Sorry, pal, THE ONLY THING PEOPLE WANT IS TO STUFF THEIR BELLIES
WITH
> "KOLBASA" AS YOU FINELY PUT IT. Do you know what ARE the highest
> priorities of the human race? Yeah, Maslow, Darwin, all that
stuff. Sex,
> food and shelter. And once they are satisfied, the next highest
priority
> is more sex, more food, and a TV set in their "shelter". It goes
on and
> on and on.
I guess you being a soviet, you probably never heard of religion and
its
power to motivate and drive people. But did you ever hear of the
concept
of freedom and its power to motivate people. These two forces
combined
are the reason why you Russians were driven out of Afghanistan and
Chechnya.
And God's vengeance on behalf of the victims of Russian brutality
and
Russia's war against His name and His people are IMO the reasons for
the
collapse of the Evil Empire. Anyone who doubts the existence of God
should just study how the Soviet Russians made war against God and
how
God won.
>Sorry, I just cannot understand people like you who seem to
> think that "masses" are best suited for social experimentation.
You obviously do not know what I think as I do not believe in
social experimentation, but I do believe in education and in truth.
I also believe that there is good and evil in the world and that the
war against evil will not end until Jesus Christ returns to Earth to
establish God's Kingdom on Earth as He promised.
>Sorry, the crowd is not a guinea pig.
I agree with you there.
>Let it be the way you want to be. You are disappointed that
>no one will watch the Swan Lake unless they are forced?
I am not a fan of Swan Lake, sorry to disappoint you. :-)
>Well, thats your problem. "PEOPLE", "MASSES" are ignorant fucks.
> Learn to live with it.
I do not have that option, I am under a commission,
read verse 15 & 16 in the 16 chapter of the Gospel of St. Mark.
>We had enough of experiments on Russians and others by the
Communists.
Well if you Russians don't like to be experimented on then why do
you want
to experiment on others? Time for your nation to repent and learn
to respect
its neighbors and act civilized.
> Its ironic to note how you accuse the Soviets (yeah, with that
very Swan
> Lake I mentioned) who created a rather elitist society (how often
did
> they play the Rolling Stones on the radio back in the 60s?) of
teaching
> people to "stuff their bellies first". Pardon me? A "NEW SOVIET
MAN"??
Yes, your elitist soviet Russians created an elitist society of
murderers,
liars, oppressors, revisionists, truth deniars and God haters.
And before them the Czars did the same thing except that they paid
lip service to God and practiced their evil hypocritically as a
service to God.
> > So I do not find it hard to understand why you and your soviet
cohorts
> > can not understand that LIFE in Ukraine is indeed better than in
Russia,
> > even IF in some cities like Moscow the economic life for the
majority may
> > be a LITTLE better than the ECONOMIC life for the majority say
in Kyiv
> > or other Ukrainian cities. IT IS ALL A MATTER OF VALUES!
> FOR YOU. Not for the guy trying to make ends meet on a 25 dollars
a month salary.
I understand that for a godless ex-soviet or whatever you call
yourself there is
nothing except the belly, television and an occasional release of
pent up libido.
> > but perhaps you are too busy studying or working in America
> > to make money and fill your belly and and satisfy your other
animalistic
> > appetites to bother learning about higher values.
> I respect your strive for the perfect society, kinda the one
ancient
> greeks dreamt about. A society of painters, writers, poets and
> musicians.
Sorry, but you are once again spouting off prematurely. I am
neither striving
nor dreaming to bring about a perfect society. A perfect society
will come
but not until the Resurrected Son of God returns to Earth to make it
happen
in God's appointed time. If you study the prophecies of Holy
Scripture you
will see that the events happening in the world today are those that
Jesus said
would occur in the days preceding His return. A few specific items
are
the return of the Jews to the land of Israel, the reoccupation of
Jerusalem
by the Jews, talk about a currencyless world wide monetary system
which
will be enacted before Christ's return, use of a personal number
given to
each person for commercial transactions, increase in religious cults
around
the world, increase in civil violence around the world, etc..
> Of course they usually forget to mention slaves among the
> population of such a perfect state.
> Listen, you will NOT succeed in creating a New Communist Man, or
> whatever Marx called the one that was supposed to inhabit the
first
> Communist state in the world. You will NOT be able to force
everyone to
> read Anna Karenina instead of a sports section in a newspaper. You
will
> not be able to FORCE the kids to listen to Beethoven instead of
> Metallica. Sorry. You will not disprove me in any way. It was a
fact,
> not an opinion, and I hope you see why.
You are preaching to the choir. Neither the godless materialistic
communists
nor the godless materalistic capitalists can create a humanistic
utopia or
satisfy the spiritual needs of the human race.
> > Happy lucky Russians, all of the Russians living in Ukraine
should know
> > such statistics, they would be boarding trains day and night to
go live back
> > in the Motherland. Maybe the US should help those poor Russians
suffering
> > in Ukraine to repatriate back to the sweet Russian Paradise.
> Ukraine should be split into the Ukrainian and Russian sections as
far
> as I am concerned. All of the Ukrainian and bordering Russian
oblasti
> should have a referendum which will decide whether a particular
oblast
> wish to remain under Russian or Ukrainian control.
Maybe the same game should also be played in Russia. :-)
Then maybe much of Siberia might end up Ukrainian
as well as most of the Kuban and maybe even a good portion
of Moscow.
> It should have been done several years ago.
> Division of the Russian empire into Ukraine and
> Russia was ridiculous and haphazard. People should live where they
WANT
> to live. And the only way to find out is by a referendum. I guess
> Ukraine will never go for that, unless it wants to lose everything
to
> the east of the Kiev oblast.. And maybe the Kiev oblast itself.
Yep.
> Those poor Russians living in Dnepropetrovsk are indeeed "poor
> Russians"/
Yup and those poor Ukrainians living in Moscow are such "poor
Ukrainians".
Moscow should be divided into Ukrainian sections and Russian
sections
by referendum. Then there can be two Moscow mayors one for
Ukrainian
muscovites and one for Russian muscovites. Russians visiting
Ukrainian
Moscow will be forced to speak Ukrainian in the Ukrainian sector.
> > So why aren't all the millions of Russians who were settled in
Ukraine,
> > to populate Ukraine after the Russians murdered millions of
Ukrainians,
> > moving back to Russia where life is so good? Are they afraid to
get their
> > hands bloody in places like Chechnya, but now that the war is
over they
> > should start leaving in droves.
> Perhaps you dont realise that for 10 million people to move from
one
> large area to another is not that easy. you are not playing toy
soldiers
> here, pal. Grow up.
Well it didn't take Russia very long to send them to Ukraine so now
the
Russians can make a plan to take them back. They are suffering so
much
in Ukraine because the life is so bad and they know how good it is
in Russia.
> What IS Ukraine? To me its a small region west and south of Kiev
oblast.
And what is Russia, it is a small area around Moscow after the
Russian Federation
is broken up.
> The majority of those who emigrate from THE PARTS OF RUSSIA NOW
UNDER
> UKRAINIAN CONTROL to Russia are ..whatever. Sorry for nationalism
and
> megalomania. Thats what we Russians are.
I know, I know.
> > But for those who really
> > don't, the Russians murdered between 7 and 10 million Ukrainian
farmers in
> > Eastern Ukraine during the early 1930s and also murdered
thousands of
> > Ukraine's best people including teachers, priests, doctors,
lawyers, the
> > whole Ukrainian intelligencia,
> If you also want to know "The Russians" killed several millions
of
> Russian farmers, teachers, priests, doctors, lawyers and
intelligentsia.
> Masochists?
What the Russians do to each other is their business. They should
keep their
"holy" wars to themselves.
Regards, Dan K.
Bohdan Wynnycky
On 31 Oct 1996, Andrey Nikolaev wrote:
> I'd like to point attention of our 'ukrainian patriotes' on few interesting facts. Acording to different estimations 30%-60%
of ppl in Ukraine are
> russian speaking. But now it's going process of forcing them to
> use only ukrainian mass media. Example: 2 weeks ago the last time
> which was given to Russian TV in Ukraine. Instead of many Russain famous
> and interesting programs
Would those be re-runs of Dallas in Russian perhaps? Please tell us which
Russian programs you would consider "famous and interesting" and why?
> now we have 'region TV time' It means that this time
> were given to regional TV centres. I don't have anything against Ukrainian
> folklor songs and dancing kozaks but please not round time !
I should think this stuff would be better than recycled Hollywood trash or
Madonna imitations.
> More painfull is that acording orders of our goverment all sellers of
> 'foregine' printed media have to pay additional taxes. Of course
> 'russian' means foregine too and I can add that 80% of those foregine
> magazines and newspapers are russian (I believe more then 80%).
Kudos to the Ukrainian Gov't!
> So our present national goverment is trying to teach us to love Ukraine
I thought they were trying to reverse 70 years of Russification in as
gentle a way possible.
> (and the methods of performing it remind me methods of former USSR, so I think
> result will be the same) And nothing wondering in it, ppl who do it are the _same_ who served to Moscow 10 years before. Simply those painted foxes now are
> blue/yellow.
> Well one more interesting fact is that our goverment is highly corrupted.
> I think Columbia with drug cortails was kids jokes in comparising with
> corruption / crime in Ukraine. And west will get many cool surprises from
> this side.
> I've to say many many ... but it doesn't matter. I like those who argue
> about life in former USSR living somewhere. Come and get some. One my friend
> said me once I'm visiting sinagogue and reading Torah not because I'm so
> ortodoxal jew but I want to reminde to all that I'M JEW. I want to remind to
> all that I'm RUSSIAN who was born here who is citizen of Ukraine as well
> as those 'Ura' patriotes.
[beware: massive Russian cop-out ahead!]
> Well, as for repressions I can say that it's not honest to say things like
> russians murdered xxx millions of ukrainian farmers, intellectual elite, etc.
> Not russians but comunist regime.
I see, so it was not Russian's killing Chechens, it was a
pseudo-democratic regime. Ah! That makes it so much easier to accept.
Thank you.
> Do u remember who guarded Lenin and was
> an elite force of revolution? Latvian divisions were. And they shot Tzar
> and his family. But I never said and never will say that latvians killed
> Tzar and millions of ppl. Stalin was from Georgia, Dzderzhinsky was half
> poland/half (I don't remember but it seems to me that german) . And do u
> know how many russian farmers was murdered? I think not less then Ukrainian.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You would loose that bet.
> So don't flame russians for era USSR u can flame Ukrainian ppl as well
> (and Kravchuk who was one from Commy Party Elite )
The Ukrainian collaborators are well known and hopefully
will face the music someday (yeah right). Kravchuk, when he visits the
west anyway, spends a good % of his time responding to some pointed
accusations from Ukrainians.
> As for forcing Ukrainians to speak russian while USSR time and don't giving
> an ability to learn Ukrainian language. May be it will be interesting for u
> when I was 7 y.o. (1980) and had to attend middle school for my parents was big
> problem to find me russian school. I had to go by bus 30 mins. to my first
> school despite the fact I had two schools in 5 mins of walk from my house.
> But those schools was ukrainian and russian groups in those schools was full.
> It's now time propaganda about ukrainian language discrimination in Ukraine
> while USSR times.
So, in your opinion, Russification was / is just a big myth, lie,
perpetuated by Ukrainian fascists? I would continue researching the
subject if I were you. Scholarly works do exist, in case you're
interested - but try not to confine yourself to purely Russian works. For
a start, try browsing the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the
University of Alberta.
Bohdan Wynnyckyj
> with best regards. Andrey
>
>
>
Dan K.
Alexander Luchin wrote:
> In article <3276FA...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
> >> Soviet Union and you never did.
> >So why do you always make out yourself to be so ignorant? A prevaricator are you?
> We never discussed situation with human rights in the USSR,
I think that we have discussed practically everything and to refresh your memory
Mr. Luchin this thread started out with a critique of your soviet Russian brother's
defamatory article about Ukraine in Forbes magazine.
> we discussed
> mostly the rights of russian population in Ukraine and the question on
> whether you can blame the whole russian nation for the crimes of stalinism.
Alex Thurston did a great little post just recently on whether or not the
Russian nation as a whole can be blamed for the Soviet Russian genocide
against the Ukrainian people. Ask him to repost it if you haven't read it.
And yes the Russian nation was responsible just as the German nation
was responsible for the Jewish holocaust and the Japanese nation was responsible
for the Japanese atrocities against many nations in the Pacific and Asia. But
whereas the Germans and Japanese have made their apologies and have made
reparations to their victims the Russians have yet to do so. WHY???
> Your problem that when you hear "union" yuo always think of the USSR, not
> of USA or EU.
Wrong Luchin, when I hear the word "union" I usually think of the AFL-CIO or
some other labor union or a pipe union or a marriage union.
> >Mr. Luchin, Mr. Luchin, first a little truth and now a baldfaced LIE.
> >Now you are not only twisting facts and playing ignorant but you
> >are fabricating lies just like the KGB used to do.
> >I have NEVER called people murderers who hold opinions different
> >from mine and I have NEVER used the term "enemies of Ukraine" AFAICR in any
> >of my posts. I have never called either you or any other sovok who posts here a
> >murderer. An idiot, yes of course, a murderer never.
> I wrote about you and your fellow George Rycar both (maybe I should've
> written about both of you separately, sorry)).
Apology accepted, please don't do it again. Please be accurate, I know that
accuracy was not a trait of soviets but the Soviet Empire is now dead so do try harder.
> You used the word "idiot" a lot of times towards the people who had an
> opinoion different from yours,
I already admitted to that and I do not use that word lightly. When I use it,
is well deserved by the other party.
> you used the term "enemies of Ukraine" regarding russian people in cremea,
> who want to separate from Ukraine.
As I said, I may have but it is usually a rare occasion and when it is used it is
used accurately. When Russians try to undermine the independence and
sovereignty of Ukraine or the current borders of Ukraine they are indeed
enemies of Ukraine by definition of the word. When someone is a traitor to
his country regardless of his ethnicity he is indeed an enemy of the state, no?
If someone in the USA advocates the violent overthrow of the US
government or breakup of the US he is defined as an enemy of the state.
If the Cubans in Miami or Mexicans in Texas started agitating for the
secession of Florida and Texas from the US and attaching them to Cuba and
Mexico they would be considered as enemies of the US regardless of their being
a majority or close to a majority of the population in those areas.
> George Rycar always (it's just his good habit) calls his opponents
> different names, from moron to assliker, a few times he called his
> opponents murderers or blamed them for the crimes they never commited. He
> just couldn't realise that neither I not Tereshenko or Sorokin didn't kill
> any ukrainians.
As I have stated please be accurate.
> I can explain you what was good in the USSR, if you want to. Of course we
> can't say that USSR was good and free country just because something was good.
Please do not bother, neither you nor any of your Russian brothers can EVER
justify the EVIL which your country has perpetrated against the Ukrainian nation
and other nations including Chechnya over the past 300 years.
> >Yes, Russian colonists were sent to Ukraine by the Czars also but it
> >was after 1917, when the major Ukrainian industrialization occured that the massive
> >Russian influx happened, during the soviet era, not before.
> >As I said there were few Russians in Ukraine prior to the soviet era
> >and the perpetration of the genocidal famine by Soviet Russia's
> >leaders to destroy the Ukrainian nation.
> I don't think they "were sent by the Czar" they just came..
Yes, they "just came" just like Shevchenko and others "just came" to Siberia.
> >It wasn't one country, it was one Evil Empire that devoured other countries and
> >destroyed their statehoods. Many of those countries are now free and others
> >like Chechnya are still struggling to get free from Russia's domination.
> Independence is not equel to political freedom. Many of those countries
> are now "free from russia" but very far from being "politically free".
Sok that's their business.
> >Yes, and you were one of the duped soviets who believed that it was one country.
> >And today you still think that it was one country. I bet you still carry your old
> >soviet passport around with you to remind you of your old soviet citizenship.
> Legally and factually it wasd the one country....
You can sing that song as long as you want but everyone today knows better.
It was one empire controlled by one country, Russia, which still is an empire.
> >Wrong Luchin, until Ukraine was free you were a soviet Russian occupier whose
> >parents were sent to Ukraine as Russian colonists. You were never invited by
> >a legitimate Ukrainian government to enter Ukraine. The Soviet government of
> >Ukraine was like the Vichy government of France under the German occupation,
> >it was not a legitimate French government. If Ukraine had kept its
> >independence after the collapse of the Russian Czarist Empire you would NEVER
> >have been born in Ukraine. So cut the crap Luchin. Just be happy that the
> >new Ukrainian government gave you amnesty and allowed you to remain in Ukraine
> >instead of trying to work out a deal with Russia to repatriate you and your people
> >back to Russia, your motherland.
> BTW, Dan, again , we have differen topinions on human rights- I belive
> -people were born ina country- they belong to that country- you have some
> king of different beliefes. The kind of beliefs that led to the war in
> Bosnia and to many other ethnic conflicts, the kind of beliefs I can
> neither accept nor respect.
After the collapse of Empires most of the mother countries ethnics go
back to the mother country as I tried to point out to you. Since as you
claim, life is so much better in Russia, it behooves your mother country
to bring back its ethnics from all of the former enslaved nations
and save them from their "misery".
> Repatriating people would be prosecuting them for the crimes they didn't do
> (for "occupying Ukraine" and "murdering" Ukrainians), but for what their
> parents maybe did.
It has nothing to do with crimes. Russia should bring back its ethnics which
they sent out throughout the Empire just as the French, English, Dutch, etc. did.
> BTW, it was very common during Stalin's times to
> prosecute children for the "crimes" of their parents- so what's the
> differents between you and stalinists you dislike that much? Looks like
> not a big difference.
Didn't I say that you were an idiot, your own words confirm it. :-)
> And as for those people who came to Ukraine- just a few of them really
> participated in crimes, but for the majority of them their only crime was
> just living acoording to the legal system that existed when USSR was the
> ONE country and people could move anywhere regardless of their ethnic
> origin. Looks like you just wan to build "uUkraine for ukrainians", but looks like
> we already learned this leson. Germany for germans.. remember?
You need to read my posts more carefully.
> If Ukrainain government tries to repatriate any of Ukraine's
> inhabitants , it will no longer be a democratic government, but a fascist one.
It is Russia that should repatriate it's Russians from Ukraine, it is not
Ukraine's burden. Russia sent them to Ukraine, Russia should bring
them home where life is, as you claim, "better".
>I hope it will never happen, but it might if people with mentality
> like yours will come to power (the chances are very slim thoug).
> Well, then the word will see at least the true nature of nationalism
IMHO the two most nationalistic people in the world are Americans and
Japanese with the English and French a close second. On the other hand
the Russians like you are IMPERIALISTIC CHAUVINISTS who always
try to give nationalism a bad name because in your opinion only
you have the right to love your country, your language, your culture,
everyone elses has to be destroyed. It was like that under your Czars,
it was like that under you commisars and it is still like that today under your
democrats. As Lebed has said nothing has changed in Russia.
>(just one more time).
Ok, just for you Mr. Luchin, I think that Russia should help Russians leave the
NIS countries, I think that Russia should make reparations to all the NIS states
for all the crimes, atrocities, environmental damages done, etc.. Russia should
give up her neurotic obsession with trying to dominate her neighbors and instead
develop good relations in all spheres with them on a basis of respect and equality
the way the Germans did after WW II. Russia should formally apologize to
Ukraine for the famine of 1932, the destruction of the Ukrainian Orthodox and
Catholic Churches and the evil of Russification perpetrated against the Ukrainian
nation for the past 300 years. Russia should immediately complete the division of
the Black Sea Fleet and take her portion out of Sevastopil and remove all remaining
Russian military forces out of Ukraine. Russia should set an example of good trade
relations with all of the NIS countries so that Eastern Europe and Eurasia can begin
the difficult task of reconstruction in earnest.
> Alex.
Regards, Dan K.
Andrey Nikolaev
On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Bohdan Wynnycky wrote:
> Would those be re-runs of Dallas in Russian perhaps? Please tell us which
> Russian programs you would consider "famous and interesting" and why?
News, vid tv, under pi sign, who,where,when ... etc many many others.
there is no offence to Ukrainian patriotes here. Simply current level of
Ukrainian village TV is not sofisticated. Simply during USSR times Moscow
TV got big advantage. That's why programs there are simply better, staff is
more qualified, etc etc. Give me _interesting_ ukrainian TV and I'll look
it. For me it's indifferent. And please no words about 'then make it good
...' or 'help them ...' I don't ask anybody to help me in my work and won't
help them I simply will choose the best on the market. As u do / will do.
>
> I should think this stuff would be better than recycled Hollywood trash or
> Madonna imitations.
Oh, well buy antena and see Ukrainian TV till u will be sick ...
> > More painfull is that acording orders of our goverment all sellers of
> > 'foregine' printed media have to pay additional taxes. Of course
> > 'russian' means foregine too and I can add that 80% of those foregine
> > magazines and newspapers are russian (I believe more then 80%).
> Kudos to the Ukrainian Gov't!
^^^^^??? Complain? What for? It will fall quite soon. Economy which can't
pay even for energy it consumes must collapse acording to all laws.
Heh, one my friend told me that acording to SBU estimations more then 70%
of national product of Ukraine disappears in shadow ... i.e. goes to pockets
of our crime and ciminalized power. I said 'I don't believe' but now I can't
find any other reasons why Ukraine can't afford oil/gas from Russia though
it's even cheaper then on the world market.. Though of course it's possible
that NATO/West will make some financial investments, but ur taxpayers should
know that those money won't ever come back. You can borrow money to street
gangsterin in N.Y. with even greater chances to get them back. So I hope u'll
help to our 'starving' democracy and starving senators. I can't imagine
how can they live on their _official_ wage. I'd starve. Hehe one more
interesting fact. Many times while visiting our markets I saw food/goods
with labels on packs 'Humanitary help' ... etc So help us, help.
If u don't agree -- please invest Ukrainian ventures and prove that u
really did it. Though I don't advise u to do it.
> I thought they were trying to reverse 70 years of Russification in as
> gentle a way possible.
No, simply our current ideology leaders can't do it by another way.
They were learned such methods from the handbooks of history of CPSU.
> [beware: massive Russian cop-out ahead!]
^^^^^^^ Hehe, I like the 'foregine patriotes' who vote for civil war in
their beloved motherland!!! Acording to _ukrainian_ statistic there are 30%
of russians in Ukraine. i.e. more then 15 millions of ppl. Note that the
population of Chechnya was less then 2 millions of ppl. So take the rifle
and come here. UNA/UNSO needs you boy!
> I see, so it was not Russian's killing Chechens, it was a
> pseudo-democratic regime. Ah! That makes it so much easier to accept.
> Thank you.
Any time. And pseudo-democratic ( or better theifocratic ) regime now tries
to rule Ukraina now.
> > poland/half (I don't remember but it seems to me that german) . And do u
> > know how many russian farmers was murdered? I think not less then Ukrainian.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> You would loose that bet.
^^^ Prove. I don't like unproven words. It's simply low level propaganda.
I don't think so. Couple of examples. Do u know Antonovs rebelion? Get info
about it. Do u know abot starvation in Volga's region? Do u know about mass
repressions of Don/Yaick kozaks while soviet time. I think if u gather all
those results u will get approx 10-15 millions of ppl. Demographic data in
former USSR was strictly secret. Now it's open. On our works while courses
of 'Safety of civilization' we calculated demographic pyramides. Of course
not very precise and I don't pretend on being 100% right. So acording
demographic data and assuming the rate of birth in 60th equal to the rate
in 20-50 and assuming that we lost while 1941-1945 30 millions of ppl
we got the result that during 1920-1940 USSR lost 30-40 millions of ppl.
(One more assumption is about we lost in each year constant percentage of ppl)
Of course such calculations definitly is not correct but I don't think
that we made error more then 30% So question if 'russians' murdered 10 mil.
of Ukrainian farmers who were those 20 millions ? (U will say germans,jews,
chechens,uzbecks ... who? Not russians?) So friend before saying words
take your computer and make some calculations. If u are able of course.
And know a bit math and not only Shevchenko's versus. I don't flame
Shevchenko and famous ukrainian writers and poets but I flame those who
made from their great work the meanings of existence and can't do anything
else.
Interesting fact. In Kiev Uni. now there are 2 semester graduate
philosophy courses. And one semester is devoted to ukrainian philosophers.
I didn't believe in it until I saw the examination programme. Yeah, really
Shevchenko, Skovoroda, and somebody_I_already_forgot_who is one semester
and Kant, Dekart, Nicshe, Newton, .... antique philosophers are another.
Is it equal split?
> The Ukrainian collaborators are well known and hopefully
> will face the music someday (yeah right). Kravchuk, when he visits the
> west anyway, spends a good % of his time responding to some pointed
> accusations from Ukrainians.
They will never 'face music' because it's practically the only force
which is allied to 'patriotes' here. Without them Ukraine like state will
fall faster. West won't judge criminal friends. They are real support for
them now here. (Though note that I didn't said that Russia is not
criminalized)
> So, in your opinion, Russification was / is just a big myth, lie,
I faced with different situation. I _HAD_ to learn ukrainian language. And
I couldn't avoid that courses in middle school. Though many my mates and
their parents wanted to do it but nobody succeded. Only childrens of army
officers who lived in Ukraine because duty was able to do it. But it was
very long procedure.
> perpetuated by Ukrainian fascists? I would continue researching the
> subject if I were you. Scholarly works do exist, in case you're
If u were me u'd go away out here as soon as possible on the nearest plane.
I'd better continue my research.
> interested - but try not to confine yourself to purely Russian works. For
> a start, try browsing the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the
Hehe, to read works of those who fought with commie in the forests of
western Ukraine? I think that neither USSR neither UNA was right. Though
like opposite point of view it's interesting. I'd be interesting to find
middle between those points of view. May be truth will lay near.
Henrietta Thomas
[newsgroups trimmed]
In article <327A63...@net.org>, netscape <nets...@net.org> wrote:
>Henrietta Thomas wrote (in response to a post by Anubis):
[...]
>> It might interest you to know that:
>>
>> a) the population of Russia is now DOWN to 147.5 million, due mainly to
>> a dramatic increase of deaths over births;
>>
>> b) thousands of pensioners recently demonstrated in Karelia because
>> their pension checks have been delayed too long;
>>
>> c) a young woman (age 38) recently tried to kill herself by immolation
>> because she feels she can no longer live "this way."
>>
>> And this is only the beginning, not the end.
>
>Also
>
>One Russian scientist recently committed suicide (not being paid or
>being underpaid for eternity) [Read in clari.world.europe.russia]
Yes, I think I remember reading about that.
>Large industrial sector is run at half capacity. Many de facto are
>bankrupt.
And more will be going under very soon.
>People drink, use drugs. In rural areas, each third becomes an
>alkoholic. People do not see future for themselves.
I can understand how they feel. Many Americans felt the same way during
our Great Depression of the 1930's.
>What is next?
1. The dictatorship of Chubais and his self-appointed group of seven very
wealthy businessmen.
2. Civil war.
Henrietta
h...@pop.wwa.com
Dan K.
Danilka wrote:
> Alexander Luchin wrote:
> > In article <32758B...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
> > >BTW, selling at open markets is very common in Eastern Europe
> > >and in many parts of Western Europe too I might add not to
> > >mention the Middle East and the rest of the world.
> > >You know most of the world does not have Safeways,
> > >A&Ps, Publix, Winn Dixie, etc..
> > Yes, it is common, but all the countries you mentioned aren't very >rich
> Paris, France?
> > and in most case people do it not for entertainment
> Only from an American. I know Americans think that SHOPPING is fun. But
> Selling?? Alex, glupaya shutka.
> > or to earn some extra
> > cash, but to survive.
> If you think street vendors are only trying to survive.. I always
> thought they made better money than Russian high school teachers.
> > Alex.
This is what the VOA reported yesterday on trading in Russia and the
number of Russians involved in buying and selling:
DATE=11/1/96
TYPE=CLOSEUP
NUMBER=4-09434
TITLE="SHUTTLE TRADERS" IN RUSSIA
BYLINE=FRANCIS RONALDS
TELEPHONE=619-3937
DATELINE=WASHINGTON
EDITOR=PHIL HAYNES
CONTENT= // TAPE INSERTS IN AUDIO SERVICES //
INTRO: IN RUSSIA TODAY, IT IS ESTIMATED THAT 20 TO 30 MILLION
PEOPLE -- OUT OF A TOTAL POPULATION OF LESS THAN
150-MILLION -- ARE INVOLVED IN SO-CALLED "SHUTTLE
TRADING" -- WHICH CONSTITUTES A KIND OF UNOFFICIAL
ECONOMY. ACCORDING TO THE WEEKLY MAGAZINE "NOVOYE
VRYEMYA," THESE SO-CALLED "CHELNOKEE," OR SHUTTLE
TRADERS, DEAL PRIMARILY IN GOODS THAT ARE IN SHORT
SUPPLY, MUCH OF WHICH THEY BUY OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA. WITH
BACKGROUND ON RUSSIA'S "OTHER" ECONOMY, HERE IS FRANK
RONALDS.
HOST: THE RIGIDITY OF THE SOVIET PLANNED ECONOMY WAS IN PART
OVERCOME BY THE "TOLKACHEE" -- "PUSHERS," OR EXPEDITERS
-- WHO ACQUIRED MATERIALS OR LABOR DESPERATELY NEEDED BY
ENTERPRISES IN ORDER TO MEET THEIR PLAN QUOTAS ON TIME.
FOR THE MOST PART, THEIR ACTIVITIES WERE ILLEGAL, BUT
THEY SERVED A VERY USEFUL PURPOSE. VLADIMIR TREML, A
PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AT DUKE UNIVERSITY, SAYS THAT IN
A CERTAIN SENSE, THE NEW "CHELNOKEE," OR SHUTTLE
TRADERS, SERVE A SIMILARLY USEFUL PURPOSE, IN MITIGATING
THE DIFFICULTIES INVOLVED IN THE PERIOD OF TRANSITION TO
A MARKET ECONOMY:
TAPE: CUT ONE -- TREML
"TOLKACHEE -- THE TERM MEANS TO EXPEDITE AND THE
TOLKACHEE WERE ESSENTIALLY CONCENTRATED ON THE
PRODUCTION SIDE. THAT IS, THEY WERE EXPEDITING THE
EXCHANGE OF INTERMEDIATE GOODS AND RAW MATERIALS AMONG
PRODUCERS IN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION. THE SHUTTLE TRADE
IS VIRTUALLY FULLY CONCENTRATED ON A CONSUMER TRADE AND
DISTRIBUTION NETWORK. BUT ESSENTIALLY, IT IS THE SAME
PHENOMENON: THIS EXPEDITING, MAKING MECHANISMS WORK
BETTER, MORE EFFICIENTLY AND FASTER."
HOST: PROFESSOR TREML EXPLAINS THAT THE BREAK-UP OF THE SOVIET
UNION LED TO THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE DISTRIBUTION
SYSTEM FOR WHOLESALE AND RETAIL TRADE WITHIN THAT VAST
AREA:
TAPE: CUT TWO -- TREML
"PRICES FOR IDENTICAL GOODS COULD BE THREE OR FOUR TIMES
HIGHER IN ONE CITY COMPARED TO ANOTHER CITY. SO PEOPLE
STEP INTO THIS OPENING, BUYING LOW AND SELLING HIGH IN
DIFFERENT CITIES. SECONDLY, THERE IS A HIGH DEGREE OF
UNDEREMPLOYMENT OR UNEMPLOYMENT, SO THERE ARE A NUMBER
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE FREE TO SPEND AT LEAST PART OF THEIR
TIME TRAVELLING ABROAD TO BUY THINGS. BUT WE HAVE NO
OFFICIAL ESTIMATES OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE INVOLVED OR
THE NUMBER OF SHIPMENTS OR THE RUBLE VALUE OF THE
SHIPMENTS."
HOST: OF COURSE THE LARGE NUMBER OF "CHELNOKEE" ESTIMATED BY
"NOVOYE VRYEMYA" INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO SELL THESE GOODS ON
THE STREETS, OR TRAVEL FROM CITY TO CITY WITHIN RUSSIA
OR WITHIN THE FORMER SOVIET UNION. BUT A GREAT DEAL OF
ATTENTION HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THE SHUTTLE TRADERS WHO
TRAVEL ABROAD. FOR EXAMPLE, LARGE QUANTITIES OF
INEXPENSIVE FOOTWEAR ARE BROUGHT IN FROM CHINA BY
CHELNOKEE. UNDER CURRENT RUSSIAN CUSTOMS REGULATIONS,
THE TRADERS ARE NOT PERMITTED TO BRING IN GOODS WORTH
MORE THAN ONE-THOUSAND DOLLARS IN VALUE, OR 50 KILOGRAMS
IN WEIGHT. BUT PROFESSOR TREML SAYS THAT IT IS
GENERALLY EASY TO BRIBE CUSTOMS OFFICIALS:
TAPE: CUT THREE -- TREML
"THE CUSTOMS SERVICES WITHIN THE AREA OF THE FORMER
SOVIET UNION HAVE NOT BEEN FULLY BUILT UP YET. THERE
ARE NOT ENOUGH CUSTOMS OFFICIALS, THEY ARE OVERWORKED,
THEY ARE UNDERPAID. VERY OFTEN THE EXCESS VALUE OR
EXCESS WEIGHT IS COVERED BY A BRIBE OR BY SIMPLY SHARING
THE GOODS BEING BROUGHT IN WITH CUSTOMS OFFICIALS."
HOST: IN TIME, PROFESSOR TREML SAYS, SHUTTLE TRADING WILL
DISAPPEAR, AS IT ALREADY HAS IN SOME FORMERLY COMMUNIST
STATES. BUT UNTIL THE WHOLESALE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM IS
FULLY REESTABLISHED, THE "CHELNOKEE" SERVE A USEFUL
PURPOSE FOR MANY RUSSIAN CONSUMERS:
TAPE: CUT FOUR -- TREML
"THE PHENOMENON IS ALMOST DISAPPEARING, OR HAS
DISAPPEARED, IN THE BALTIC COUNTRIES AND BROUGHT UNDER
CONTROL IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC AND IN POLAND. I HAVE NOT
SEEN MUCH PROGRESS IN RETAIL TRADE AND DISTRIBUTION IN
RUSSIA YET, DEFINITELY NO PROGRESS HAS BEEN OBSERVED IN
UKRAINE. SO I THINK THIS ACTIVITY WILL CONTINUE FOR AT
LEAST A COUPLE MORE YEARS. IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT
SEGMENT OF THE ECONOMY."
HOST: VLADIMIR TREML, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AT DUKE
UNIVERSITY, ON THE "SHUTTLE TRADERS" WHO BUY AND SELL
PRODUCTS IN SHORT SUPPLY IN RUSSIA AND SOME OTHER
FORMERLY COMMUNIST COUNTRIES. (SIGNED)
01-Nov-96 1:08 PM EST (1808 UTC)
Source: Voice of America
So my question for Dmitri is, is this trading activity humiliating when
it is done by Ukrainians and not by Russians? Or is it the scope of the
trading that makes this activity humiliating? Or is it the
activity that is humiliating and that it is humiliating for both
the Ukrainians and the Russians to do it? In that case it seems
that there are more humiliated people in Russia than in Ukraine
if we are to accept the figures given by the VOA report. Is that
what the Russians mean when they say that life is better in Russia
than in Ukraine? :-)
Dan K.
Kateryna Ostrowskaja
Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> schrieb im Beitrag
<3276FB...@ezdial.com>...
> Alexander Luchin wrote:
>
> > In article <32758B...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com>
wrote:
>
> > >BTW, selling at open markets is very common in Eastern Europe
the awfullest thing about russian people generally ( i am not a kind of
person who said something about the whole race, but it is the thing i meet
very often) is:
thay have no feeling of justies, no conscience, no feeling of reality if
thay think about thamselves as a nation, aspeccially about problems that
concern comparison with other nations and people. all that feelings that
every nation have, they have drowned them in a swollen something of
national pride. look at the russian gouvermant - those people are crazzy or
childish or have got no manners at all. it is a legitime gouvermant and i
am aware it is just the best that russia can offer. they are not afraid of
blood, they are brave as nomads. some people like to talk about referendum
in ukraine. i think thay know what it means, if thay have 60 to 40
result...
can this undoubtedy nice country with such an asiatic face ever have a
democracy or at least respect it? does it need a democracy?
Katja
Gerry Joseph Szachara
--
Please don't simply get upset here...read this letter with a scientific
point of view, not with a point of view of pride in something!
I don't understand your anger. let me clear myself up here. I never
said that RUSSIA is better than Ukraine. I personally love Ukraine.
I did state that there
are more available products in Moscow than Ukraine. This is undoubtedly
true. Much as there are more products available in America than
somalija. Just walk around Kiev and Moscow ...there are more products in
Moscow. This is the truth. Anyone who doesn't see this is definitely
blind or closing there eyes becasue they wish not to see it. I am a very
scientific person and hope that
you will be able to keep this conversation on the level of an educated
discussion and not a matter of pride, but the truth. Ukraine...is a
much more beautiful nation I stated. Yes this is also definitley true.
Where do you find that I love Russia """so much """""? and should stop
spending my time in Zakarpatja and move to Russia? I simply stated a
evident fact and you replied saying that I am all stupid and should go to
hell or something. I am Ukrainian and my family is and I will stay in
Ukraine as long as I want. If you want to help Ukraine and make people
think highly of it don't go around combatting solid fact based arguments
with name calling. First off I am very offended, second off...it is
pretty pointless!
__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--\
/ "Uncle" Gerry "hrushka" "Jarov" 'Joe' Joseph Szachara\
\--------------------------------------------------\
\ szac...@oswego.oswego.edu | \
\------------------------------------------------------\
\ Gerry Joseph Szachara \ "Drinking is a part of the\
\ Onondaga Hall / Russes, without it we /
\ SUNY Oswego \ cannot live" /
\ Oswego, NY 13126 / -Prince Vladimir /
ariadna a solovyova
>I have a little job for you. Conduct a survey amongst your friends and
>relatives, especially those over 50 years of age, and find out how many
>would be willing to stand on street corners selling apples at 10 cents
>a throw in order to get a little "bread" to buy a loaf of bread. Ask them
>if they would be humiliated.
>I will be first on your list. One of my biggest fears as I grow older is
>that I might end up on the street doing just that. It would be terribly
>embarrassing to me to have to do that in order to survive.
.....
I see many farmers over 50 at the local market; they are not embarrassed,
and they have nothing to be embarrassed about. I, for one, respect them
deeply, and believe that during the coming ecological and economical
crisis in America, small farms will be our hope for survival. I look
forward to the day when I can grow my own food and sell it, too, -- or,
preferably, trade it with my neighbors for goods and services. Barter is
one of the elements of the practice of local self-reliance and
decentralization that I believe will save the world!... "Yeah, right."
Well, at least some of its poorer inhabitants. Please check out
http://members.aol.com/efssociety for some exciting stuff on local
currency and self-reliance, including information on an ecovillage in
Siberia.
Adja Solovyova
l...@acsu.buffalo.edu
In this message the person responding does not operates with the facts,
but only fillings.
1) Ocupation
Since the orlier years Ukraine always aply to Russia as an Older
brother. Who are Ukrainian people there is some procentage who was living
there for a while but also there is a lot of people who run oway from
Russia in to Kasaki for better life. Most of the wars that Ukraine was
involved it was supported by Russia or and Russian people. As far as the
ocupation of 1921 goes there was a lot of Ukranian people involwed in that
ocupation.
2) Killing of farmers
There was people killed in both Russia and Ukraine and the argument
that russian people chose to be under Tyrany is not even worth talking
about. The problem Ukraine have is with Komunist Party of Soviet Union
party that was formed by people from all nations not only Russian's.
Something also I want to point out that if you consider your self to be an
intelgent person with knowlage of the subject you should not be using
slang like moskalies and sying such dum staff like go back to your
motherland. That is there motherland As you know a lot of bepole was born
there and they dont' know any other place. Something also to consider you
kretik somebody or someone only if you care otherwise what is the point.
thank you
L.D.
Gerry Joseph Szachara
Kateryna Ostrowskaja (Kateryna_O...@public.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:
: the awfullest thing about russian people generally ( i am not a kind of
: person who said something about the whole race, but it is the thing i meet
: very often) is:
: thay have no feeling of justies, no conscience, no feeling of reality if
: thay think about thamselves as a nation, aspeccially about problems that
: concern comparison with other nations and people. all that feelings that
: every nation have, they have drowned them in a swollen something of
: national pride. look at the russian gouvermant - those people are crazzy or
: childish or have got no manners at all. it is a legitime gouvermant and i
: am aware it is just the best that russia can offer. they are not afraid of
: blood, they are brave as nomads. some people like to talk about referendum
: in ukraine. i think thay know what it means, if thay have 60 to 40
: result...
: can this undoubtedy nice country with such an asiatic face ever have a
: democracy or at least respect it? does it need a democracy?
: Katja
--
Very good point Katja. Does it need a democracy? No. democracy is only
a philosophy of government. Just because one philosophy works for one
group of people does not mean it will work for another.
HTTP://WWW.OSWEGO.EDU/~SZACHARA
__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--__--\
/ "Uncle" Gerry "hrushka" "Jarov" 'Joe' Joseph Szachara\
\--------------------------------------------------\
\ szac...@oswego.oswego.edu | (315)341-4160 \
\------------------------------------------------------\
\ Gerry Joseph Szachara \ "Drinking is a part of the\
\ 222 Onondaga Hall / Russes, without it we /
Dan K.
l...@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:
> In this message the person responding does not operates with the facts,
> but only fillings.
.........."fillings deleted...............
I sincerely believe you.
> thank you
Your welcome,
> L.D.
Dan K.
Dan K.
Oleksa Luchyn wrote:
> The problems is not with Moscovites, who are pretty happy about being able
> to buy cheap food from ukrainians,.................cut..............
> Alex.
Seems that Moscow is the only place in Russia that that poor Ukrainians
can go to sell their produce because it seems according to the VOA report,
see below, no one else in Russia is getting paid.
Dan K.
DATE=11/4/96
TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT
NUMBER=2-205571
TITLE=RUSSIA / LABOR (L ONLY)
BYLINE=JENNIFER GRIFFIN
DATELINE=VLADIMIR, RUSSIA
CONTENT=
VOICED AT:
INTRO: WORKERS ACROSS RUSSIA HAVE BEEN URGED TO JOIN A GENERAL
STRIKE TUESDAY TO DEMAND BACK WAGES FROM THE GOVERNMENT. MANY
WORKERS HAVE NOT BEEN PAID FOR FIVE MONTHS. JENNIFER GRIFFIN
VISITED A TRACTOR FACTORY IN VLADIMIR, ABOUT 200 KILOMETERS EAST
OF MOSCOW WHERE WORKERS EXPRESSED DOUBT THE STRIKE WOULD HAVE ANY
BENEFICIAL EFFECT.
TEXT:
/// SOUND OF CARS DRIVING THROUGH THE RAIN ///
ON TRACTOR STREET -- THE MAIN THOROUGHFARE IN DOWNTOWN VLADIMIR
-- CARS PLOW THROUGH DRIVING RAIN, SPLASHING THROUGH PUDDLES, AS
WORKERS GATHER OUTSIDE THE TOWN'S LARGEST TRACTOR FACTORY. IT IS
THE LAST DAY OF THE MONTH, PAYDAY, AND THEY WANT TO SEE IF THEY
WILL GET THEIR SALARIES THIS TIME.
VALENTIN SEDOV HAS WORKED AT THE VLADIMIR TRACTOR FACTORY FOR 32
YEARS. HE SAYS SOON HE WILL HAVE TO RESORT TO BEGGING.
/// VALENTIN SEDOV ACT IN RUSSIAN - WITH TRANSLATOR ///
I HAVEN'T RECEIVED MONEY FOR FIVE MONTHS -- JUNE, JULY,
AUGUST, SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER. THE ONLY OPTION I HAVE LEFT
IS TO TAKE MY HAT OFF, PUT IT IN FRONT OF ME AND SIT
DOWN AND BEG.
/// END ACT ///
THE CONCRETE BILLBOARD AT ONE END OF THE STREET ADVERTISES JOBS
AT WHAT IS DESCRIBED AS THE COUNTRY'S BEST TRACTOR FACTORY. A
GOOD SALARY AND SOCIAL SUPPORT GUARANTEED, IT SAYS.
/// OPT // VOICES OF PEOPLE COMING OUT OF THE FACTORY ///
/// OPT /// BUT A QUICK SURVEY OF THESE WORKERS LEAVING THE
VLADIMIR TRACTOR FACTORY REVEALED WAGES ARE ABOUT 40 DOLLARS A
MONTH - AND GENERALLY LONG OVERDUE. HALF THE WORKERS WERE NOT
PAID TODAY. /// END OPT ///
MR. SEDOV SAYS CONDITIONS AT THE FACTORY WERE BETTER UNDER THE
COMMUNISTS.
/// 2ND SEDOV ACT IN RUSSIAN - WITH TRANSLATOR ///
WE WERE PAID IN THE OLD DAYS. BUT SINCE PERESTROIKA
BEGAN, THE PROBLEMS STARTED. AT FIRST THERE WAS A DELAY
OF ONE MONTH, THEN TWO MONTHS, AND THIS YEAR EVEN FIVE
MONTHS.
/// END ACT ///
THIS BACKLOG OF UNPAID WAGES BEGAN AFTER THE BREAK-UP OF THE
SOVIET UNION IN 1991 AND IS NOW INCREASINGLY COMMON IN RUSSIA.
LAST WEEK, THE SITUATION BECAME SO BAD THE DIRECTOR OF A LEADING
NUCLEAR WEAPONS RESEARCH CENTER COMMITTED SUICIDE. A NOTE FOUND
WITH THE BODY SAID THE SCIENTIST WAS DISTRAUGHT BECAUSE THE
GOVERNMENT HAD -- AGAIN -- NOT GIVEN THE CENTER ENOUGH MONEY TO
PAY ITS EMPLOYEES.
/// OPT // WOMAN TALKING AT RECEPTION - FADE UNDER ///
BACK INSIDE THE VLADIMIR TRACTOR FACTORY, SECRETARIES AT A
RECEPTION WINDOW SPOKE AMONG THEMSELVES, ASKING WHY THE WORKERS
CONTINUED TO HANG AROUND THE FACTORY HOPING TO BE PAID. THERE IS
NO MONEY, THEY SAID.
ANOTHER WOMAN, TAMARA MONOVA, HAS WORKED AS A LABORATORY
ASSISTANT AT THE FACTORY FOR 28 YEARS. THE GOVERNMENT ASSIGNED
HER TO THE JOB WHEN SHE GRADUATED FROM A TECHNICAL INSTITUTE. ON
THIS DAY, MS. MONOVA ARRIVED AT WORK EXPECTING TO BE PAID HER
JUNE SALARY, BUT SHE IS AMONG THE HALF WHO WILL GO HOME
EMPTY-HANDED.
/// MONOVA ACT IN RUSSIAN - WITH TRANSLATOR ///
AT THE PRESENT TIME I FEEL SORRY FOR MY CHILDREN. WHEN
WE USED TO GRADUATE FROM AN INSTITUTE, WE WERE SURE WE
WOULD BE PROVIDED WITH WORK. NOW OUR CHILDREN
GRADUATING FROM TECHNICALS AND INSTITUTES HAVE NO
GUARANTEES.
/// END ACT ///
WITH SO MANY UNPAID WORKERS, ONE MIGHT EXPECT STREET PROTESTS AND
PARALYZING LABOR WALK-OUTS. BUT WORKERS SUCH AS MR. SEDOV AT THE
TRACTOR FACTORY SAY THEY HAVE LOST HOPE IN STRIKES.
/// 3RD SEDOV ACT IN RUSSIAN - WITH TRANSLATOR ///
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? IF I GO TO MY MANAGER AND
TELL HIM MY COMPLAINTS, I WILL BE TOLD THAT IF I DO NOT
LIKE IT HERE, THEY WILL PAY ME ALL MY BACK WAGES. BUT
THEN I WILL HAVE TO FIND A NEW JOB.
/// END ACT ///
MOREOVER, ORGANIZING WORKERS HAS PROVEN DIFFICULT IN A VAST
COUNTRY SPREAD ACROSS ELEVEN TIME ZONES. MANY EXPERTS PREDICT
RUSSIANS, IN THE ABSENCE OF ANY CHARISMATIC LABOR LEADERS, WILL
SIMPLY ACCEPT THIS LATEST HARDSHIP, AND IGNORE CALLS FOR
LONG-TERM WORK STOPPAGES. (SIGNED)
NEB/JG/JWH/MMK
04-Nov-96 9:21 AM EST (1421 UTC)
NNNN
Source: Voice of America
Henrietta Thomas
In article <asolovyo.847086801@silver>,
asol...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (ariadna a solovyova) wrote:
>In <552ru5$o...@kirin.wwa.com> h...@pop.wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas) writes:
>
>>I have a little job for you. Conduct a survey amongst your friends and
>>relatives, especially those over 50 years of age, and find out how many
>>would be willing to stand on street corners selling apples at 10 cents
>>a throw in order to get a little "bread" to buy a loaf of bread. Ask them
>>if they would be humiliated.
>>I will be first on your list. One of my biggest fears as I grow older is
>>that I might end up on the street doing just that. It would be terribly
>>embarrassing to me to have to do that in order to survive.
>......
>
>I see many farmers over 50 at the local market; they are not embarrassed,
>and they have nothing to be embarrassed about. I, for one, respect them
>deeply, and believe that during the coming ecological and economical
>crisis in America, small farms will be our hope for survival. I look
>forward to the day when I can grow my own food and sell it, too, -- or,
>preferably, trade it with my neighbors for goods and services. Barter is
>one of the elements of the practice of local self-reliance and
>decentralization that I believe will save the world!... "Yeah, right."
>Well, at least some of its poorer inhabitants. Please check out
>http://members.aol.com/efssociety for some exciting stuff on local
>currency and self-reliance, including information on an ecovillage in
>Siberia.
I am not talking about farmers who sell their produce in farmer's markets.
Or even about vendors who sell souvenirs at the ballparks. Or people who
make their living at flea markets. I am talking about people forced by
circumstance to make a living on the street. For people like me, it would
be very embarrassing. So I can understand how some other people might be
embarrassed too. Some people just aren't cut out for that sort of thing.
Henrietta Thomas
Chicago, Illinois
h...@pop.wwa.com
Peter Alberts
On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Gerry Joseph Szachara wrote:
> > Kateryna Ostrowskaja (Kateryna_O...@public.uni-hamburg.de) wrote:
> : can this undoubtedy nice country with such an asiatic face ever have a
> : democracy or at least respect it? does it need a democracy?
> Very good point Katja. Does it need a democracy? No. democracy is only
> a philosophy of government. Just because one philosophy works for one
> group of people does not mean it will work for another.
Katja's point indeed seems very good to me. And Joseph is right
in a way, too. But the point about democracy and Russia ist not the
subject or the object, it is the verb! No, Russia doesn't "need" a
democracy because she lived and "survived" under czarist and under
communist rule. Nobody really "needs" democracy, although I'm absolutely
convinced that it is the ideal form of government.
The problem is that the Russian people obviously doesn't care ahout
its form of government. For the average Russian citizen ("dopustim
ego est' ") the prize of Vodka is far more important than any decision
taken by the Duma. I know that this is a clishee, but it's f*** true,
k sozhaleniju.
I'm not so sure, whether this fact is evidence for the "asiatic face"
of Russia, but something over there is definitely completely different
from Western Europe, I think we all know that. So the really interesting
question about Russia is not - in my eyes - the question of democracy
and its relation to Russia but the question of the character of Russia's
"being different" from the rest of the world.
In my oppinion democracy and Russia don't fit together, but communism
and Russia didn't fit either. It seems that nothing fits for Russia.
Awaiting your answers.
Zhelaju vsem chitatelem vsego dobrogo.
Peter Alberts, University of Muenster, Germany.
Alexander Luchin
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.96110...@govonca2.gov.on.ca>,
Bohdan Wynnycky <wyn...@gov.on.ca> wrote:
>Would those be re-runs of Dallas in Russian perhaps? Please tell us which
>Russian programs you would consider "famous and interesting" and why?
Well, I'd name "KVN", "Chto Gde Kogda", music shows, entertainment
programs, movies.
>I thought they were trying to reverse 70 years of Russification in as
>gentle a way possible.
It is doing neither one. It is trying to reverse people's attention from
real problems.
>I see, so it was not Russian's killing Chechens, it was a
>pseudo-democratic regime.
You got the point. Good.
Alex.
Alexander Luchin
>I think that we have discussed practically everything and to refresh your memory
>Mr. Luchin this thread started out with a critique of your soviet Russian brother's
>defamatory article about Ukraine in Forbes magazine.
We discussed Forbes article, but we didn't discussed problems of the USSR.
>Alex Thurston did a great little post just recently on whether or not the
Refer to Alex Thurston? Well, you really got a good friend.
>And yes the Russian nation was responsible just as the German nation
>was responsible for the Jewish holocaust and the Japanese nation was responsible
>for the Japanese atrocities against many nations in the Pacific and Asia. But
>whereas the Germans and Japanese have made their apologies and have made
>reparations to their victims the Russians have yet to do so. WHY???
Japanese and German governments did, ask russian government why it didn't.
I belive that the whole nation couldn't be held responsible for the
actions of their ruler, especially considering that in the majority of
cases those rulers were not elected freely.
Anyway, when you held responsible the whole nation , are you going to put
in charge only russians that lived in those times or russians that were
born long after that.
>I already admitted to that and I do not use that word lightly. When I use it,
>is well deserved by the other party.
Then it is you problem that you do not respect your opponents and can't
listern to an opinion different from yours.
>As I said, I may have but it is usually a rare occasion and when it is used it is
>used accurately. When Russians try to undermine the independence and
>sovereignty of Ukraine or the current borders of Ukraine they are indeed
>enemies of Ukraine by definition of the word. When someone is a traitor to
>his country regardless of his ethnicity he is indeed an enemy of the state, no?
>If someone in the USA advocates the violent overthrow of the US
>government or breakup of the US he is defined as an enemy of the state.
There is a difference in advocating a violent overthrowing the government
and critisizing the government. When somebody advocates separtion of
Cremea from Ukraine by non-violent, legal,way, he is not a criminal, not
an enemy, but a person, expressing and advocatin his opinion, the right
given by constitution and being one of the fundamental principles of
democracy.
If somebody calls for russian invasion to unite Russia an Ukraine, he is
an enemy, but if he advocates doing it by a legal, parlimentary,
non-violent way- he is not an enemy, this is his right.
>If the Cubans in Miami or Mexicans in Texas started agitating for the
>secession of Florida and Texas from the US and attaching them to Cuba and
>Mexico they would be considered as enemies of the US regardless of their being
>a majority or close to a majority of the population in those areas.
No, they wouldn't be.
>> can't say that USSR was good and free country just because something was good.
>Please do not bother, neither you nor any of your Russian brothers can EVER
>justify the EVIL which your country has perpetrated against the Ukrainian nation
>and other nations including Chechnya over the past 300 years.
I'm noty going to jusify any evel, evil is evil and can't be justified by
anything.
Nothing can justify killing of innocent people.
>You can sing that song as long as you want but everyone today knows better.
>It was one empire controlled by one country, Russia, which still is an empire.
So, you agree that it was one state, although really controlled mostly by
Russia, or to be more exact, by Moscow.
Article Unavailable
Gerry Joseph Szachara
Alexander Luchin (alu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
I'm not taking sides at all but I want to say that Alex sure has some
pretty good debating skills, Dan to help your argument why don't you stay
away from personal attacks. Your bit about life not revolving around
food and money is good, but Alex countered well with the who needs
democracy if they[re starving? bit. well Round 3 boys!--
Alexander Luchin
In article <327D8D...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>Funny little Moskalek, aren't you? Let's stick with Kyiv, ok,
>it's the official transliteration you know!
Again, Dan, you start a discussion with offending your opponent. Not a
surprise for me, I know Ukrainian "patriots" too well now.
Just one more evidence that "ukrainian"-american patriots have a little
bit different understanding of democracy, closer to that of the communist
government of the USSR.
>So you think that makes you some kind of sovok expert on life?
Too many people already told you, Dan, that life in Russia, although far
from good, is still better than life in Ukraien. Well, I understand. It's
hard to believe in lie of some "moskali".
>We have already agreed that the ECONOMIC life in Moscow may be
>be better than in Kyiv, but as we have stated repeadedly, so that even someone
>as tupolobiy as you might understand, that life is not just a matter of filling one's
>belly and watching funny shows on television.
Ukraine is not much more advanced towards democracy that russia, although
the situation in Ukraine now is somehow more favourable to ecomomic
reforms than in russia (but it may change any time. But economy is the
basics of everything. People don't need freedom when they are hungry.
>Poor Moskalyky afraid of going back to paradise in the motherland?
Dan, you know that "Moskalyky is an offensive term used by Ukrainian
nationalist towards russians. I belive that you use this word here to
intentionally offend russians and the whole russian nation.
But offending people because of their national origin is facscism. Well,
now everybody can see that you're a fascist, Dan.
Alex.
Dan K.
Alexander Luchin wrote:
> In article <327D8D...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
> >Funny little Moskalek, aren't you? Let's stick with Kyiv, ok,
> >it's the official transliteration you know!
> Again, Dan, you start a discussion with offending your opponent.
And his remark was not meant as an offense to all Ukrainians?
>Not a surprise for me, I know Ukrainian "patriots" too well now.
> Just one more evidence that "ukrainian"-american patriots have a little
> bit different understanding of democracy, closer to that of the communist
> government of the USSR.
You mean we have been murdering Russians by the millions and have been
torturing them in jails and have been sending them to labor camps and
concentration camps? Luchin, Luchin you are such a prevaricator.
You would have made a good career in the old SU.
> >So you think that makes you some kind of sovok expert on life?
> Too many people already told you, Dan, that life in Russia, although far
> from good, is still better than life in Ukraien. Well, I understand. It's
> hard to believe in lie of some "moskali".
Yes, for you Muscovites living in Ukraine life is definitely worse in
Ukraine than in Russia. I do not dispute that. Never have. I know that
most, though not all, of you people absolutely hate things Ukrainian. Isn't
the proof of that in the fact that most of you do not want to learn Ukrainian?
Or is the language too difficult for you?
> >We have already agreed that the ECONOMIC life in Moscow may be
> >be better than in Kyiv, but as we have stated repeadedly, so that even someone
> >as tupolobiy as you might understand, that life is not just a matter of filling one's
> >belly and watching funny shows on television.
> Ukraine is not much more advanced towards democracy that russia,
News to me. The Russians have already had two civil wars in the Russian
Federation since the collapse of the FSU. Is that what you call democracy?
> although the situation in Ukraine now is somehow more favourable to ecomomic
> reforms than in russia (but it may change any time. But economy is the
> basics of everything.
>People don't need freedom when they are hungry.
Only a thoroughly sovietized Moskal' could say something like that.
You obviously do not know the meaning of freedom. You obviously
do not know anything about life or the meaning of life. I pity you.
> >Poor Moskalyky afraid of going back to paradise in the motherland?
> Dan, you know that "Moskalyky is an offensive term used by Ukrainian
> nationalist towards russians.
Oh, I did not know that. Until the 18th century that is what Russians
were called, and their country was called Moscovia.
> I belive that you use this word here to
> intentionally offend russians and the whole russian nation.
Oh my no, why would I want to offend the Russians? Just because they murdered
millions of Ukrainians, deported millions of Ukrainians to Siberia, Khazakstan
and all over Asia, settled millions of Russians in Ukraine after depopulating
the land through a genocidal famine and to this day have made no apology, what
would make you think that I do not have a great affection for those people?
Oh and not to mention the pollution which their industrialization programs
produced in Ukraine including the disaster in Chornobyl.
> But offending people because of their national origin is facscism. Well,
> now everybody can see that you're a fascist, Dan.
And now you have become a lying name caller.
> Alex.
Regards, Dan K.
BTW, I do not hate the Russians, God is their judge!
Henrietta Thomas
In article <327EAA...@ezdial.com>,
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>Oleksa Luchyn wrote:
>
>> The problems is not with Moscovites, who are pretty happy about being
able
>> to buy cheap food from ukrainians,.................cut..............
>> Alex.
>
>
>Seems that Moscow is the only place in Russia that that poor Ukrainians
>can go to sell their produce because it seems according to the VOA report,
>see below, no one else in Russia is getting paid.
>
>Dan K.
[...] VOA article deleted
The fact that Ukrainians have to go to Moscow to make money may also be
interpreted to mean that Ukrainians aren't getting paid either. Why don't
these Ukrainian travelers to Moscow set up shop in their own country?
Henrietta
h...@pop.wwa.com
Dan K.
Gerry Joseph Szachara wrote:
> Alexander Luchin (alu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
> I'm not taking sides at all but I want to say that Alex sure has some
> pretty good debating skills, Dan to help your argument why don't you stay
> away from personal attacks. Your bit about life not revolving around
> food and money is good, but Alex countered well with the who needs
> democracy if they[re starving? bit. well Round 3 boys!--
>
> HTTP://WWW.OSWEGO.EDU/~SZACHARA
Well, Jerry, it you think that Luchyn's "debating skills" are so good
then maybe the two of you should go to Russia and negotiate to help the
poor Russians who haven't been paid for month's to get their salaries.
This debate is really irrelevant for me and Luchyn may shout all he wants
about how good life is in Russia, but maybe he doesn't read the papers
or maybe the VOA is lying. :-)
This is how good life is in Russia according to the VOA, below.
But even though the economic life in Ukraine may not be better, at least
the Ukrainians and the citizens of the other NIS countries can now console
themselves with freedom and they do not have to suffer the humiliation of
their army in Chechnya or their loss of empire, or the disgust of their
neighbors. Or is it love that is driving the Poles, Hungarians, etc. into
the arms of NATO? The VOA posted:
DATE=11/5/96
TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT
NUMBER=2-205644
TITLE=RUSSIA / STRIKES (S ONLY)
BYLINE=ELIZABETH ARROTT
DATELINE=MOSCOW
CONTENT=
VOICED AT:
INTRO: EVEN WHILE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT BORIS YELTSIN WAS UNDERGOING
SURGERY, ANGRY CITIZENS TOOK TO THE STREETS TUESDAY TO HOLD
ANTI-GOVERNMENT DEMONSTRATIONS. V-O-A'S ELIZABETH ARROTT REPORTS
FROM MOSCOW.
TEXT: IT DID NOT SEEM TO MATTER THE HEAD OF STATE WAS IN NO
CONDITION TO HELP. WORKERS ACROSS RUSSIA HELD RALLIES TUESDAY
DEMANDING GOVERNMENT ACTION ON THE WAGE CRISIS.
THE ONE-DAY NATIONWIDE STRIKE WAS ORGANIZED LAST MONTH, BEFORE A
DATE FOR MR. YELTSIN'S SURGERY WAS SET. LABOR UNION OFFICIALS
CALLED THE ACTION TO URGE GOVERNMENT AND PRIVATE EMPLOYERS TO PAY
WORKERS THEIR WAGES. MILLIONS OF RUSSIANS HAVE GONE MONTHS
WITHOUT THEIR SALARIES. THE DEBT IS CALCULATED AT THE EQUIVALENT
OF MORE THAN SEVEN-BILLION DOLLARS.
RUSSIAN DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER VITALY IGNATENKO SAYS THE MONEY IS
AVAILABLE.
/// IGNATENKO ACT -- IN RUSSIAN - FADE UNDER ///
MR. IGNATENKO SAID IT WAS UNFORTUNATE THE DEBT HAD BEEN INCURRED.
GOVERNMENT, PRIVATE EMPLOYERS AND UNION REPRESENTATIVES PLAN TO
RESUME TALKS ON THE CRISIS WEDNESDAY. GOVERNMENT PROMISES HAVE
BEEN BROKEN BEFORE, AND WORKERS ARE EAGER TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEM
BEFORE WINTER SETS IN. (SIGNED)
NEB/EA/JWH
05-Nov-96 8:04 AM EST (1304 UTC)
Gerry Joseph Szachara
<E0F0J...@oswego.Oswego.EDU> <328001...@ezdial.com>
Distribution:
Dan K. (dkoro...@ezdial.com) wrote:
: Well, Jerry, it you think that Luchyn's "debating skills" are so good
: then maybe the two of you should go to Russia and negotiate to help the
: poor Russians who haven't been paid for month's to get their salaries.
: This debate is really irrelevant for me and Luchyn may shout all he wants
: about how good life is in Russia, but maybe he doesn't read the papers
: or maybe the VOA is lying. :-)
Why do you need personal attacks on me? I Love Ukraine! I'm not against it.
I simply tried to help you a little. The number one rule in a debate is
don't go personal in the early stages, which is what you two are in.
Saying personal comments like you did simply makes your debate frivilous
in the eyes of the listener and counter-debater.
: This is how good life is in Russia according to the VOA, below.
: But even though the economic life in Ukraine may not be better, at least
: the Ukrainians and the citizens of the other NIS countries can now console
: themselves with freedom and they do not have to suffer the humiliation of
: their army in Chechnya or their loss of empire, or the disgust of their
: neighbors. Or is it love that is driving the Poles, Hungarians, etc. into
: the arms of NATO? The VOA posted:
Now this last paragraph is good. Really good. You are totally right.
The fact that the Ukrainians are free is excellent, the fact that THEIR
army isn't in Chechnya is great. Russians can't say this. this is an
advantage to being in ukraine. Yea! Use facts my friend. I know their
out there cuz Ukraine is a great nationl, they just have to be found now.
Good luck.
Disclaimer: My opinion is that one can not have an opinion on which
country is better...which is what this debate has come down to. I have
no opinion...well no publically announced opinion anyways!
Henrietta Thomas
In article <32800...@ezdial.com>,
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
[...]
>BTW, I do not hate the Russians, God is their judge!
Oh, I get it now. You are God's messenger!
Why didn't I think of that before?
The Lord sure works in mysterious ways.......
Alexander Luchin
In article <328001...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com> wrote:
>
>Well, Jerry, it you think that Luchyn's "debating skills" are so good
>then maybe the two of you should go to Russia and negotiate to help the
>poor Russians who haven't been paid for month's to get their salaries.
>This debate is really irrelevant for me and Luchyn may shout all he wants
>about how good life is in Russia, but maybe he doesn't read the papers
>or maybe the VOA is lying. :-)
Again and again Dan is missing my point- I never wrote that life in Russia
is extremely good and wealthy, of course, life in Russia is hard, but the
life in Ukraine is even worse.
BTW, as you can see Gerry, it is one of the most frequent Dan's arguments
in a discussion- either to call his opponent "idiot" or to tell him "go to
Russia".
VOA reports you repost do show that the life in Russia is hard and that
Russia does have economicel problems, but they don't compare life in
Russia and Ukraine.
Alex.
Alexander Luchin
In article <E0FA9...@oswego.oswego.edu>,
Gerry Joseph Szachara <szac...@news.oswego.edu> wrote:
>Why do you need personal attacks on me? I Love Ukraine! I'm not against it.
>I simply tried to help you a little. The number one rule in a debate is
>don't go personal in the early stages, which is what you two are in.
>Saying personal comments like you did simply makes your debate frivilous
>in the eyes of the listener and counter-debater.
Gerry, it's a common feature of Dan to insult people who have an opposite
point of view. That's probably one of the features of "freedom" and
"democracy" in his understanding- not respecting the other people's
opinion.
Alex.
Alexander Luchin
>And his remark was not meant as an offense to all Ukrainians?
Which of his remarks were offensive to all Ukrainians - that he was born
in Kiev?
>You mean we have been murdering Russians by the millions and have been
>torturing them in jails and have been sending them to labor camps and
>concentration camps? Luchin, Luchin you are such a prevaricator.
>You would have made a good career in the old SU.
No, I mean you insult your opponents and have no respect to their opinion,
and who knows what your action would be if you were able to prosecute
them.
In a number of your posts you stated that people should be denied their
rights because of their ethnic origin .
Hardly compatible with democracy.
>
>> >So you think that makes you some kind of sovok expert on life?
>> Too many people already told you, Dan, that life in Russia, although far
>> from good, is still better than life in Ukraien. Well, I understand. It's
>> hard to believe in lie of some "moskali".
>
>Yes, for you Muscovites living in Ukraine life is definitely worse in
>Ukraine than in Russia. I do not dispute that. Never have. I know that
>most, though not all, of you people absolutely hate things Ukrainian. Isn't
>the proof of that in the fact that most of you do not want to learn Ukrainian?
>Or is the language too difficult for you?
The life is worse for all the people in Ukraine- for ukrainians, russians,
jews, polish.
As for the language russian people have nothing to fear so far (at least
until people like you come to power which I hope never happens)- there is
education in russian etc, and anyway, studying ukrainian was mandatory
even during soviet times, and the majority of russian ukrainians can
understand and speak ukrainian. It is not a problem for them. Their
problem is the same as the problem of all the other people of Ukraine-
ukrainians, jews etc- poor life, bad economy, crime and so on.
>News to me. The Russians have already had two civil wars in the Russian
>Federation since the collapse of the FSU. Is that what you call democracy?
I wouldn't call October 1993 events a "civil war", I wouldn't call it a
war at all- what I'd call it is "coup".
There was a war in Chechnya, and I agree- this war has little in common
with democracy, as well as 1993 events. But Russian democracy is just a
newborn , it is very young, very unexperienced, has a lot of problems and
has a very long way to go to become a real democracy.
Political situation in Ukraine is somehow better because Ukraine didn't
have the war and Ukraine had a very good case- when ex-president Leonod
Kravchuk lost elections- he didn't send tanks on the streets, didn't
declear elections false, he left, he fulfilled the will of the people. And
maybe this was the major achievement of Kravchuk as a president.
But Ukraine still has a lot of problems- corruption , mafia, crime(and the
recent assosination of Ukrainian deputy showed that) , unability of law
enforcement agencies to protect people from crime, but the biggest
problems is the exremely bad situatiuon in economy, which resulted in poverty.
And this is the biggest threat to young Ukrainian democracy.
>
>>People don't need freedom when they are hungry.
>
>Only a thoroughly sovietized Moskal' could say something like that.
>You obviously do not know the meaning of freedom. You obviously
>do not know anything about life or the meaning of life. I pity you.
No, it's not only a "soviet feature". I belive that people who are hungry,
people who are afreaid can not be really free. Hungry people will think
about bread , not about freedom. And hungry people are very likely to
follow those who will promise them bread, not freedom, they are likely to
follow leaders who promise to restore order, to improve people's life,
even if tose leaders are not democratic at all- and the examples are
numerous- Germany, Chile, Russia, Iran.
Article Unavailable
Dan Korolev
Bohdan Wynnycky <wyn...@gov.on.ca> writes:
>On 31 Oct 1996, Andrey Nikolaev wrote:
>> I'd like to point attention of our 'ukrainian patriotes' on few interesting facts. Acording to different estimations 30%-60%
> of ppl in Ukraine are
>> russian speaking. But now it's going process of forcing them to
>> use only ukrainian mass media. Example: 2 weeks ago the last time
>> which was given to Russian TV in Ukraine. Instead of many Russain famous
>> and interesting programs
>Would those be re-runs of Dallas in Russian perhaps? Please tell us which
>Russian programs you would consider "famous and interesting" and why?
>> now we have 'region TV time' It means that this time
>> were given to regional TV centres. I don't have anything against Ukrainian
>> folklor songs and dancing kozaks but please not round time !
>I should think this stuff would be better than recycled Hollywood trash or
>Madonna imitations.
We are not talking about American TV here. While there may indeed be
a couple of Hollywood movies here and there on Russian TV, the amount
of intellectual modern thought-provoking programs on Russian TV is
extremely great.
>> More painfull is that acording orders of our goverment all sellers of
>> 'foregine' printed media have to pay additional taxes. Of course
>> 'russian' means foregine too and I can add that 80% of those foregine
>> magazines and newspapers are russian (I believe more then 80%).
>Kudos to the Ukrainian Gov't!
Kudos indeed! I hear the Dnepropetrovsk ex-Commie Mafia that
IS Sucking the Last Juices Out of Ukraine... oops, I meant the Great
Ukrainian Government is making huge fortunes for themselves and their
families off of all these taxes. A great racket they got there!
In any case, I leave it up to the Ukrianian people to decide when to
arest and execute their government criminals. It's Ukriane's internal
affair as to whether they all want to serve as slaves to the Commie
Owners.
However, Ukraine owes Russia tens of billiobs of dollars in unpaid
energy bills for the last few years. This amount is greater than the
current Russian budget deficit that is threatening the very survival
of the Russian democracy.
If the Ukrianian government wants to make buyers of good
Russian literature pay 80% tax into the pockets of Kuchma's
ministers - great! If they are banning Russian-language TV with its
intellectual programs - so be it. But if you are so intent on
spitting in the face of Russia - have some dignity: stop living off
of poor Russian teachers and miners, who have not been paid for 4
months jus tto keep your Dnepropetrovsk Mafia happy!
And the irony of the whole thing is tha tthe reason why the Uke
Government is forbidding Russian TV is because Russian TV doesn't pay
enough money to them! That with billions of dollars owed to Russia
and with realisation that if Russia ever stops giving energy to
Ukriane for free - Ukraine will have a Catastrophe and mass deaths
from freezing!
You now tax 80% on Russian publications? Great! Use the tax proceeds
to reduce your debt to Russia! I mean, th eamount of magazine tax, if
collected for ten billion years, will probably pay off the energy
debt. :-)
In summary:
Sidish' v g...ne - tak ne chirikay!
If you are squeezing everything out of your own people and into your
private pockets and if you are living off of Russia's good will -
stop harassing your own citizens and Russia!
Bohdan Wynnycky
On 5 Nov 1996, Alexander Luchin wrote:
> >And yes the Russian nation was responsible just as the German nation
> >was responsible for the Jewish holocaust and the Japanese nation was responsible
> >for the Japanese atrocities against many nations in the Pacific and Asia. But
> >whereas the Germans and Japanese have made their apologies and have made
> >reparations to their victims the Russians have yet to do so. WHY???
>
> Japanese and German governments did, ask russian government why it didn't.
When Yelsin & Co. have an e-mail address, or in some other fashion open-up
the communication lines, we can start referring these questions to them.
In the meantime......
> I belive that the whole nation couldn't be held responsible for the
> actions of their ruler, especially considering that in the majority of
> cases those rulers were not elected freely.
You miss the point. Ask any German or Japanese citizen today about the
atrocities committed against other peoples by their former Nazi or
Imperial armies and you will undoubtedly see some expression of remorse,
condolence, etc. Empathy in some form will be expressed and wrong-doing
acknowledged. With respect to what happened in '32 & 33 as well the mass
arrests and trumped-up charges against the Ukrainian intelligensia (not
purely confined to Stalin's time btw) many or most Russians IMO on the
other hand, typically provide remarks like: "well many Ukrainians
were responsible for what happened" or "many Russians suffered too" ect...
Not that there is not some truth in these statements necessarily, however
when you combine a lack of empathy with sentiments like "Ukraine and
Russia are brothers and belong together" it can can result in some
pretty hostile responses from many Ukrainians. Moreover, when Ukrainian
scholars invite Russian scholars from around the world to attend a
conference to discuss "Ukrainian Russian Historical Relations" (I believe
it was in 1995) - only a handful or Russians show up (indicating most
don't give a damn) causing the chair of the conference to openly declare
his disappointment! (I don't have the specific proceeds handy - but if
there's enough interest or response, I will try and subsequently post the
details).
So I would not act too surprised when Ukrainians sometimes bark at
Russians - especially in an open forum like the internet.
> Anyway, when you held responsible the whole nation , are you going to put
> in charge only russians that lived in those times or russians that were
> born long after that.
You hold those alive at the time responsible for the acts, you hold
contemporary persons responsible for distorting, ignoring (not
acknowledging) previous wrongdoings. At least that's the way I look at
it.
[...]
>
> >As I said, I may have but it is usually a rare occasion and when it is used it is
> >used accurately. When Russians try to undermine the independence and
> >sovereignty of Ukraine or the current borders of Ukraine they are indeed
> >enemies of Ukraine by definition of the word.
How about when the average Ivan in the streets of Moscow states that
Ukraine belongs with Russia - how should Ukrainians interpret that? Is
this equivalent to an Arab saying the state of Israel has no right to
exist?
BW
[...]
Dan Korolev
"Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> writes:
>Oleksa Luchyn wrote:
>> The problems is not with Moscovites, who are pretty happy about being able
>> to buy cheap food from ukrainians,.................cut..............
>> Alex.
>Seems that Moscow is the only place in Russia that that poor Ukrainians
>can go to sell their produce because it seems according to the VOA report,
>see below, no one else in Russia is getting paid.
>Dan K.
>INTRO: WORKERS ACROSS RUSSIA HAVE BEEN URGED TO JOIN A GENERAL
>STRIKE TUESDAY TO DEMAND BACK WAGES FROM THE GOVERNMENT. MANY
>WORKERS HAVE NOT BEEN PAID FOR FIVE MONTHS.
Great point. Indeed, the Russian Government owes about $8 billion
in back wages to starving Russian workers. This deficit is due
$19 billion in credits that the idioticly naive Russian government
has given in credits (which will never be returned) to their "FSU
brothers" (brothers my foot!), most of it to Ukraine to keep the
Ukrianian economy (devastated by the Government's stealing everything
into their families' private swiss accounts) from collapsing.
I agree with all the points that you ahve recently made, dear
namesake. namely:
1. Russian workers MUST be paid.
2. Ukriane is an independent country and shouyld be treated by Russia
in exactly the same way as, say, Germany or England.
3. Man does not live by bread alone. In particular, the freedom from
Russian influence is such a precious goal that it would be worth any
degree of economic, dietary or thermal sufering that Ukrianians might
have to endure in order to rid themselves of Russian influence.
The inescapable conclusion from all your logic is htat Ukraine MUST
pay the billions and billions of dollars that it owes to Russia
IMMEDIATELY!
That way, Ukraine will stop undue Russian influence and "blackmail",
it will become like other countries (England, germany, France) that
pay their debt to Russia on time, th eRussian workers will all get
paid, and the Ukrianian people will gladly absorb the suffering that
would result from this "ridding of Russian influence". So, is it a deal?
If so, please le tus know when your Mafia ....oops, I meant
Government is going to pay its debt. The Russian workers will start
dying of hunger soon becaus eof Ukrainian government's greed!
Dan K.
Dan Korolev wrote:
> "Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com> writes:
> >Oleksa Luchyn wrote:
> >> The problems is not with Moscovites, who are pretty happy about being able
> >> to buy cheap food from ukrainians,.................cut..............
> >can go to sell their produce because it seems according to the VOA report,
> >see below, no one else in Russia is getting paid.
> >Dan K.
> >STRIKE TUESDAY TO DEMAND BACK WAGES FROM THE GOVERNMENT. MANY
> >WORKERS HAVE NOT BEEN PAID FOR FIVE MONTHS.
> Great point. Indeed, the Russian Government owes about $8 billion
> in back wages to starving Russian workers..................................BS cut..........................................
So, Korolev agrees that life in Russia is not so much better than
in Ukraine.
Regards, Dan K.
BTW, when will Russia make a formal apology for the genocidal famine
against Ukrainian farmers during the 1930s and start making reparations
to the survivors of the famine as well as pay for the all the
environmental damages done to Ukraine during the soviet industrialization
especially the Chornobyl disaster?
Henrietta Thomas
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.961107...@govonca2.gov.on.ca>,
>> >was responsible for the Jewish holocaust and the Japanese nation was
>> >responsible for the Japanese atrocities against many nations in the
>> >Pacific and Asia. But whereas the Germans and Japanese have made their
>> >apologies and have made reparations to their victims the Russians have
>> >yet to do so. WHY???
>>
>> Japanese and German governments did, ask russian government why it
>> didn't.
>
>the communication lines, we can start referring these questions to them.
Yeltsin has his own Web page now at http://www.maindir.gov.ru/.
Why don't you take a look-see? Maybe he has an email address where
you can send him a note.
>In the meantime......
I do not agree that "the Russian nation" is responsible for the acts and
doings of USSR, and I would not support any attempt to extract reparations
from the current Russian government. Reparations are appropriate only when
an aggressor nation has been defeated in war. This does not apply to the
situation between Russia and Ukraine.
Henrietta Thomas
h...@pop.wwa.com
Valentyn Katran
Henrietta Thomas wrote:
> I do not agree that "the Russian nation" is responsible for the acts and
> doings of USSR, and I would not support any attempt to extract reparations
> from the current Russian government. Reparations are appropriate only when
> an aggressor nation has been defeated in war.
As every school child knows, the State of Israel did not exist at the
time of World War II, so Hitler's Germany was never an "aggressor" in a
sense suggested by you.
And yet the State of Israel received substantial reparations (and
rightly
so) from German Federal Republic *after* State of Israel was
established.
>This does not apply to the situation between Russia and Ukraine.
According to your logic, Russia has yet to be defeated by Ukraine in
order to qualify for reparations? ;-)
--V
>
> Henrietta Thomas
> h...@pop.wwa.com
Alexander Luchin
>When Yelsin & Co. have an e-mail address, or in some other fashion open-up
>the communication lines, we can start referring these questions to them.
>In the meantime......
AFAIK they do, check http://www.gov.ru/
>You miss the point. Ask any German or Japanese citizen today about the
>atrocities committed against other peoples by their former Nazi or
>Imperial armies and you will undoubtedly see some expression of remorse,
>condolence, etc. Empathy in some form will be expressed and wrong-doing
>acknowledged. With respect to what happened in '32 & 33 as well the mass
>arrests and trumped-up charges against the Ukrainian intelligensia (not
>purely confined to Stalin's time btw) many or most Russians IMO on the
>other hand, typically provide remarks like: "well many Ukrainians
>were responsible for what happened" or "many Russians suffered too" ect...
>Not that there is not some truth in these statements necessarily, however
>when you combine a lack of empathy with sentiments like "Ukraine and
>Russia are brothers and belong together" it can can result in some
>pretty hostile responses from many Ukrainians.
There is a difference between Germany or Japan and Russia-USSR. While
german or japanese fascists performed their atrocities mostly on people
other nations (jews etc), Stalinists crimes targeted people of their own
country. And it is true that millions of russian people were victims of
repression themselves. I would not identify the leadership of the USSR as
"russian"
because , at first, many of them were not even russian, and second , I
belive that their national origin doesn't really matter. Crimes are always
crimes and evel is always evel regardless of who commits it.
AS for the middle and lower rank officials (NKVD officers, investigators,
local communist bosses etc) - it is quite possible that the majority of
them were russians, although I never saw any data on natonal composition
of NKVD forces, but just because russians were the majority in the USSR.
So, I wouldn't call Stalin's terror "the terror of russians against
ukrainians and other nations", but the terror of stalinists against all
the people of the USSR , including ukrainians and russians themselves.
AFAIK, many russians feel that stalin's time repressions were a terrible
crime and feel sympathy to the victims (again, many of whom are russians
themselves), including ukrainians.
The problem is that all teh orders came from Moscow, and everything was
controlled by Moscow, and since Moscow is the capital of Russia and
usually is identified with Russia, many people , unfortunately, identify
communist crimes as "russian crimes".
> Moreover, when Ukrainian
>scholars invite Russian scholars from around the world to attend a
>conference to discuss "Ukrainian Russian Historical Relations" (I believe
>it was in 1995) - only a handful or Russians show up (indicating most
>don't give a damn) causing the chair of the conference to openly declare
>his disappointment! (I don't have the specific proceeds handy - but if
>there's enough interest or response, I will try and subsequently post the
>details).
>
What can I say? Bad for russian schoolars.
>You hold those alive at the time responsible for the acts, you hold
>contemporary persons responsible for distorting, ignoring (not
>acknowledging) previous wrongdoings. At least that's the way I look at
>it.
You hold responsible for the acts those who commited the acts, that is true,
but what about those who did not participate. Of course you can hold them
responsible for support, even silent, for nor resisting, but from the
other side people didn't have much choice and much opportunity in choosing
and influencing their leaders, and the ability to resist was pretty
limited because the repressive machine would crash any resistance attempt
in the very beginning. Another thing that many people really believed in
Stalin's propaganda (or Hitler's one) and it is really easy to brainwash
the whole nation , especially when people do not have alternative sources
of information.
So, some people were brainwashed, some understood what's going on, but
were afraid to resist, and some tried to resist but were destroyed by the
repressive machine. I belive it is true both for USSR and Germany.
So, it is a very complicated question whether we can blame ordinary people
for wrongdoings commited by their leaders.
As for the people leaving today, I think only those could be blamed who
say that all those crimes commited say by Stalin (or Hitler) were the
right things. But there are not many people like that.
>How about when the average Ivan in the streets of Moscow states that
>Ukraine belongs with Russia - how should Ukrainians interpret that? Is
>this equivalent to an Arab saying the state of Israel has no right to
>exist?
Well, there are idiots in every nation.
Best regards,
Alex.
Bohdan Wynnycky
On 6 Nov 1996, Alexander Luchin wrote:
>
> The life is worse for all the people in Ukraine- for ukrainians, russians,
> jews, polish.
These so-called economic comparisons between Ukraine and Russia are not
very usefull. The evidence is often contradictory. You bemoan the
economic situation in Ukraine - but in truth it is only the nouveau
riche (I'm guessing but less than 5% of the population) in both
countries which has prospered economically. Russian workers with unpaid
wages (eg. the miners) are plenty. Same situation in Ukraine
unfortunately. From a macro economic perspective however, I would argue
Russia is worse off because of the staggering debt they have accumulated
over the last 4 years. Ukraine, because it has relatively little foreign
debt, is poised for strong economic growth in the years to come.
> As for the language russian people have nothing to fear so far (at least
> until people like you come to power which I hope never happens)- there is
> education in russian etc, and anyway, studying ukrainian was mandatory
> even during soviet times, and the majority of russian ukrainians can
> understand and speak ukrainian. It is not a problem for them. Their
> problem is the same as the problem of all the other people of Ukraine-
> ukrainians, jews etc- poor life, bad economy, crime and so on.
>
Why do you continue to perpetuate this myth about jewish life in Ukraine
undergoing "problems?" According to Rabbi Lincoln of New York, the jews
in Russia are now sending their children to Kyiv and Chernivtzi in Ukraine
- where life is safer. Remember unlike Russia, we do not have a "Pamyat"
Klu Klux Klan party conducting and advocating pogroms! Au contraire - Jewish
culture in Ukraine is experiencing a rennaissance of sorts.
BW
>
>
>
Nick Semenov
In Article<32800...@ezdial.com>, <dkoro...@ezdial.com> writes:
> Path:
iag.net!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!in1
nntp.cais.net!news.cais.com!news
> From: "Dan K." <dkoro...@ezdial.com>
> Newsgroups:
alt.current-events.ukraine,alt.current-events.russia,soc.culture.russian,soc.cu
lture.ukrainian
> Subject: Re: Is Life Really Better in Russia than in Ukraine?
> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 19:34:13 -0800
> Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet <in...@cais.com>
> Lines: 79
> Message-ID: <32800...@ezdial.com>
> References: <326B03...@ezdial.com>
<Pine.OSF.3.93.96110...@govonca2.gov.on.ca>
<Pine.BSF.3.91.961102160304.22029A-...@serv.biph
kiev.ua> <327D8D...@ezdial.com>
<55o76s$5...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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> Xref: iag.net alt.current-events.ukraine:8139
alt.current-events.russia:20635 soc.culture.russian:68206
soc.culture.ukrainian:37142
>
> Alexander Luchin wrote:
>
> > In article <327D8D...@ezdial.com>, Dan K. <dkoro...@ezdial.com>
wrote:
> > >Funny little Moskalek, aren't you? Let's stick with Kyiv, ok,
> > >it's the official transliteration you know!
> > Again, Dan, you start a discussion with offending your opponent.
>
> And his remark was not meant as an offense to all Ukrainians?
>
> >Not a surprise for me, I know Ukrainian "patriots" too well now.
> > Just one more evidence that "ukrainian"-american patriots have a little
> > bit different understanding of democracy, closer to that of the communist
> > government of the USSR.
>
> You mean we have been murdering Russians by the millions and have been
> torturing them in jails and have been sending them to labor camps and
> concentration camps? Luchin, Luchin you are such a prevaricator.
> You would have made a good career in the old SU.
>
> > >So you think that makes you some kind of sovok expert on life?
> > Too many people already told you, Dan, that life in Russia, although far
> > from good, is still better than life in Ukraien. Well, I understand. It's
> > hard to believe in lie of some "moskali".
>
> Yes, for you Muscovites living in Ukraine life is definitely worse in
> Ukraine than in Russia. I do not dispute that. Never have. I know that
> most, though not all, of you people absolutely hate things Ukrainian. Isn't
> the proof of that in the fact that most of you do not want to learn
Ukrainian?
> Or is the language too difficult for you?
>
>
> > >We have already agreed that the ECONOMIC life in Moscow may be
> > >be better than in Kyiv, but as we have stated repeadedly, so that even
someone
> > >as tupolobiy as you might understand, that life is not just a matter of
filling one's
> > >belly and watching funny shows on television.
> > Ukraine is not much more advanced towards democracy that russia,
>
> News to me. The Russians have already had two civil wars in the Russian
> Federation since the collapse of the FSU. Is that what you call democracy?
>
> > although the situation in Ukraine now is somehow more favourable to
ecomomic
> > reforms than in russia (but it may change any time. But economy is the
> > basics of everything.
>
> >People don't need freedom when they are hungry.
>
> Only a thoroughly sovietized Moskal' could say something like that.
> You obviously do not know the meaning of freedom. You obviously
> do not know anything about life or the meaning of life. I pity you.
>
>
> > >Poor Moskalyky afraid of going back to paradise in the motherland?
> > Dan, you know that "Moskalyky is an offensive term used by Ukrainian
> > nationalist towards russians.
>
> Oh, I did not know that. Until the 18th century that is what Russians
> were called, and their country was called Moscovia.
>
> > I belive that you use this word here to
> > intentionally offend russians and the whole russian nation.
>
> Oh my no, why would I want to offend the Russians? Just because they
murdered
> millions of Ukrainians, deported millions of Ukrainians to Siberia,
Khazakstan
> and all over Asia, settled millions of Russians in Ukraine after
depopulating
> the land through a genocidal famine and to this day have made no apology,
what
> would make you think that I do not have a great affection for those people?
> Oh and not to mention the pollution which their industrialization programs
> produced in Ukraine including the disaster in Chornobyl.
>
> > But offending people because of their national origin is facscism. Well,
> > now everybody can see that you're a fascist, Dan.
>
> And now you have become a lying name caller.
>
> > Alex.
>
> Regards, Dan K.
>
> BTW, I do not hate the Russians, God is their judge!
Pan Korolyshyn,
I need you profound advice on how to live and where to go.
The problem is .. eh.. I am half Ukrainian (by mother) and half Russian (by
father, accordingly). Quite naturally all my life is a mess because of the
trick of nature.
One part of me hates the other while the other tries to make life horrible for
the former. First one which I guess is Ukrainian tries to stuff my belly
whenever slightest urge to eat comes. The other one , likely Russian, tries to
stop it, seemingly, in order to impose exhaustion from famine.
The Russian part of me makes me go to liquor store far too often than
Ukrainian part would like, which blames the Russian of being stupid, idiotic,
inconsiderate and tyrannical to the whole body. (In fact my liver was
victimized by both parts in that war). Imagine that! Once I even overheard a
hateful thought of Ukrainian part -- " If it was not this bully Russian ,
meaning my father I think , I would be 100% percent bigger and stronger , I
would be master of this organism".
(The only positive part is I always had both sides of the story - but who
needs this nowadays!).
My inner conflict must have been stopped somehow before I would end up in some
medical facility - I realized one day. So having asked psychological asylum
from the USA government I fled from the land where there was no hope for
peace . I knew the problem would eventually fade in the remote alien place -
both parts of me realizing how stupid and shallow their rivalry was - both
of them sharing the same genes and all - and I will acquire a peace with
myself. I was right only to some point. Now a third part emerged in me -
young and strong - ever so disdainful and mocking to the rest of me. I have
suspicion, it might be of a Yankee origin. It is practical, sober, and
hateful to all narrow-minded people like you. It has no hesitation of
speaking up of what it wants and thinks, no self guilt and no desire to talk
to those sovok twins.
You say it's good. Let me assure you that it's even worse. Why?
I am scared of becoming wholesome person like you Mr.Korolyshyn.
Do your thoughts come solely from one place?
NS
Y. S. Perkhounkova
How familiar this story sounded to me! Almost like description of my own
life, full with fights among my different selves. I had more of them to
begin with. The Ukrainian (represented by father) one and two lesser ones,
Russian and Belorussian. Of course, my Ukrainian self always argues with
the Russian self. The Belorussian one always tries to reconcile them, not
always successfully. Money management is an especially hot area for
disagreement. My Russian part loves spending money, buying nice things,
organizing parties etc. My Ukrainian part just hates it and constantly
insists that I have to save. Suppose someone asks me to lend some money.
The Ukrainian self immediately says: No way! It takes longer for the
Russian part to say something (it is usually slower suppressed by a
bigger Uke one). Then it of-course asks: Why not? We (sorry I need to
refer to myselves as we) have money, we could share. What if he/she will
never return them? (this was Uke part) So what? (Russian one). They just
keep arguing. The Belorussian self patiently listens to all this noise
and eventually intrudes to politely explain to the Uke part that the
person is known to be a decent person for a long time, and will surely
return the loan etc. Now everything depends on the patience of that who
needs the money. If he(or she) waits long enough until my Russian and
Belorussian selves make my Ukrainian self to give in, then he/she
gets the money.
Yelena.
M.Pavlova
I just want to say that I know people, who are Ukranian by nationality.
They live in Siberia and are planning to leave from there due to climate
conditions.
Well, these people have a house in Ukraine and still, they do not want
to come back there. They say, that economically they would be worse off
there. So, they search for place to live in Russia. I think that
indicates relative standards of living, doesn't it?
I also wanted to note that Dan K. is a genuine example of the unaware
nationalism. As I understood, he has lived in America for quite a while,
and, inpired by his strong love for Ukraine tends to idealise it not
actually KNOWING what is happening there.
Masha.
Alexander Luchin
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.961108...@govonca2.gov.on.ca>,
Bohdan Wynnycky <wyn...@gov.on.ca> wrote:
>These so-called economic comparisons between Ukraine and Russia are not
>very usefull. The evidence is often contradictory. You bemoan the
>economic situation in Ukraine - but in truth it is only the nouveau
>riche (I'm guessing but less than 5% of the population) in both
>countries which has prospered economically. Russian workers with unpaid
>wages (eg. the miners) are plenty. Same situation in Ukraine
>unfortunately. From a macro economic perspective however, I would argue
>Russia is worse off because of the staggering debt they have accumulated
>over the last 4 years. Ukraine, because it has relatively little foreign
>debt, is poised for strong economic growth in the years to come.
It is no doubt that situation both in Russia and Ukraine is extremely
difficult and only a small number of people could benefit from the "reforms"
performed so far. However, situation in Ukraine is somewhat worse that
situation in Russia- Ukraine experienced much higher inflation, worse
decline in it's manufacturing sector of economy and in industrial output,
its population has lesser income and one can buy more for an average
Russian wages (provided they are paid) than for a ukrainian one (provided
they are paid as well), Russia achieved much more success with
privatization and market reforms as well.
I have an experience iof living both in Ukraine and Russia and can say
that life in Russia economically is better than in Ukraine (well, Russia
is big, so there is also a difference from region to region).
Ukraine has smaller debt, but the teritory and population of Ukraine is
smaller than territory and population of Russia as well. Still Ukrainian
debt, although smaller than russian, is not small at all, and sufficient
part of it is a debt to Russia.
So far the situation in Ukraine is difficult and the time will show if the
government's economic policy is successful and if the situation improves.
>
>> As for the language russian people have nothing to fear so far (at least
>> until people like you come to power which I hope never happens)- there is
>> education in russian etc, and anyway, studying ukrainian was mandatory
>> even during soviet times, and the majority of russian ukrainians can
>> understand and speak ukrainian. It is not a problem for them. Their
>> problem is the same as the problem of all the other people of Ukraine-
>> ukrainians, jews etc- poor life, bad economy, crime and so on.
>>
>Why do you continue to perpetuate this myth about jewish life in Ukraine
>undergoing "problems?" According to Rabbi Lincoln of New York, the jews
>in Russia are now sending their children to Kyiv and Chernivtzi in Ukraine
>- where life is safer. Remember unlike Russia, we do not have a "Pamyat"
>Klu Klux Klan party conducting and advocating pogroms! Au contraire - Jewish
>culture in Ukraine is experiencing a rennaissance of sorts.
Actually I didn't write about jewish problems at all, I just mentioned
jews as one of the nationalities living in Ukraine.
However Ukraine has some anti-jewish organizations, although they do not
have much influence among the population.
Alex.
Gerry Joseph Szachara
Keep in mind all that reparations as well as aggretions dopn't have to be
pointed at a particular state or country or government but also could
could just as easily be directed towards a group of people such as KKK
and blacks in America. There were Blacks in America and the KKK did take
Aggressions against them didn't they? As far as I know the blacks
weren't a state were they? Same with Germany verses Jews and Soviet
Union verses nations it took over. What's more important though is that
Russia did no do these autrocities...the Soviets Union did and \Russia
can not be expected to pay.
Jurassic
Nick Semenov wrote:
[...]
> One part of me hates the other while the other tries to make life horrible for
> the former. First one which I guess is Ukrainian tries to stuff my belly
> whenever slightest urge to eat comes.
Make sure its not the third (american) part. Look carefully what kind of
food
it tries to stuff your abdomina with.
> The other one , likely Russian, tries to
> stop it, seemingly, in order to impose exhaustion from famine.
> The Russian part of me makes me go to liquor store far too often than
> Ukrainian part would like, which blames the Russian of being stupid, idiotic,
> inconsiderate and tyrannical to the whole body.(In fact my liver was
> victimized by both parts in that war). Imagine that! Once I even overheard a
> hateful thought of Ukrainian part -- " If it was not this bully Russian ,
> meaning my father I think , I would be 100% percent bigger and stronger , I
> would be master of this organism".
Should we understand this as a hint that all Russian bullies are in fact
dwarf bullies?
> (The only positive part is I always had both sides of the story - but who
> needs this nowadays!).
>
> My inner conflict must have been stopped somehow before I would end up in some
> medical facility - I realized one day. So having asked psychological asylum
> from the USA government I fled from the land where there was no hope for
> peace . I knew the problem would eventually fade in the remote alien place -
> both parts of me realizing how stupid and shallow their rivalry was - both
> of them sharing the same genes and all - and I will acquire a peace with
> myself. I was right only to some point. Now a third part emerged in me -
> young and strong - ever so disdainful and mocking to the rest of me. I have
> suspicion, it might be of a Yankee origin.
What a surpise! So much for the Slavic genetic purity... Now how that
despicable
Yankee could possibly sneak into the noble line of your ansestors, I
wonder.
> It is practical, sober, and
> hateful to all narrow-minded people like you. It has no hesitation of
> speaking up of what it wants and thinks, no self guilt and no desire to talk
> to those sovok twins.
Does it want to drive Mersedes 600 LS, too? Then be careful: you may
carry
a little New Russian (HP (tm)) in yourself.
> You say it's good. Let me assure you that it's even worse. Why?
>
> I am scared of becoming wholesome person like you Mr.Korolyshyn.
> Do your thoughts come solely from one place?
Its not a problem if somebody's thoughts come from only one place.
Problems start when this place does not coincide with a person's head.
:)
--
Jurassic
Dan Korolyshyn
In article <560n7e$e...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Alexander Luchin wrote:
>Date: 9 Nov 1996 01:36:46 GMT
>From: alu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Alexander Luchin)
>Actually I didn't write about jewish problems at all, I just m
>entioned jews as one of the nationalities living in Ukraine.
So, there are many ethnic groups living in Ukraine, why single
out the Jews?
>However Ukraine has some anti-jewish organizations, although
> they do not
>have much influence among the population.
> Alex.
>
Luchyn, Luchyn,
There are many anti-Jewish organizations in the US also,
so what?
And there are many anti-Jewish organizations in Russia also
where they DO HAVE A LOT OF INFLUENCE not only among the
population but they also have many representatives in
the Russian parliament. All racism and chauvinism must
be resisted. The Russians must give up their chauvinism
and racism if they are to make progress as a democratic
country.
Regards, Dan K.
Dan Korolyshyn
In article <55un5e$b...@kirin.wwa.com> Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 07:27:05 GMT
>From: h...@pop.wwa.com (Henrietta Thomas)
>I do not agree that "the Russian nation" is responsible for
> the acts and doings of USSR,
The Russians were the "leading" nation in the USSR, the
Russians imposed their language on all people's of the USSR,
the USSR all over the world was constantly referred to as
the USSR, the people in the USSR were always referred to as
Russians and the Soviet government never protested that. The
athletes from the USSR were always referred to a Russians. The
Soviet Army was always referred to as the Russian Army, etc.
etc. etc.
>and I would not support any attempt to extract reparations
>from the current Russian government.
Were you against reparations to the Jews and Israel from the
GERMAN NON-NAZI post war government?
>
Reparations are
> appropriate only when
>an aggressor nation has been defeated in war. This does not
> apply to the situation between Russia and Ukraine.
Ye, the Ukrainians defeated the evil soviet empire in their
bid for freedom in the ballot box on Dec. 1, 1991.
>
>Henrietta Thomas
>h...@pop.wwa.com
>
>
Dan K.
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Dan K.
Alexander Luchin wrote:
Luchyn, Luchyn, shame on you, I do not insult ALL who disagree with
me, why you lyink?
> Gerry, it's a common feature of Dan to insult people who have an opposite
> point of view. That's probably one of the features of "freedom" and
> "democracy" in his understanding- not respecting the other people's
> opinion.
> Alex.
In any case, I think that it is time to chage the subject.
We have agreed that economic life is scarcely better, if at all, in Russia.
But whereas the Russians have to bear the guilt of the crimes of the Soviet
Russian and Czarist Russian Empires as well as the humiliating defeats of their
armies in Afghanistan and Chechnya, the citizens of the NIS countries though in many
cases less well off economically than Russians, can at least console themselves with the
precious freedoms which they have gained. They are now free to rebuild their
religious and cultural institutions, they are now free to travel abroad, they are
now free to love their countries and express that love in songs, poems and plays,
they are now free to recapture once forbidden histories and learn the truth about
themselves and who they are, they are now free to participate in international athletic
competions around their world under their own banners rather than winning glory for
a foreign evil empire. No, the economy is not as good as it should be, but it will,
with God's help improve. And while they are working on impoving their economy
they can enjoy the fruits of the freedoms which they have gained. The Americans too
suffered much economically after independence, yet after much hard work they have
come a long way and serve as an example to the people of the NIS nations not to lose
heart but to continue to work to make the changes necessary through their elected
representatives and to hold them accountable for their work.
But getting back to Mr. Luchin,
Alexander Luchin wrote:
> No, I mean you insult your opponents and have no respect to their opinion,
How can one respect the opinion of Russian chauvinists. That is like
respecting the opinions of Nazis, Japanese imperialists and Khmer Rouge.
> and who knows what your action would be if you were able to prosecute them.
Yes, you have a point, it was a mistake for the Ukrainian government not to
prosecute the communists and Russian chauvinists who committed crimes
against humanity during the Soviet Russian occupation. It is still not too late
to go after the scumbags. Look at the Jews, they are still chasing Nazi war
criminals 50 years after WW II. The Ukrainian government should follow
their example and pursue Soviet criminals and prosecute them as criminals
who committed crimes against humanity. Gorbachov allowed the vicious
evil criminal Lazar Kaganovich to die naturally without bringing the scumbag
to justice even though the scumbag never even recanted of his evil. But
justice is surely being served to him now.
> In a number of your posts you stated that people should be denied their
> rights because of their ethnic origin .....
Lie, Luchin, you lie.
> >>People don't need freedom when they are hungry.
> >Only a thoroughly sovietized Moskal' could say something like that.
> >You obviously do not know the meaning of freedom. You obviously
> >do not know anything about life or the meaning of life. I pity you.
> No, it's not only a "soviet feature".
Yes, that is what I said, your "soviet features" are obvious to all.
>I belive that people who are hungry, people who are afreaid can not be really free. .........................BS cut....................................
Like I said, you do not know the meaning of freedom. This is something which
your former soviet masters could never understand, that some men were willing to
go to soviet labor camps for their beliefs. They were willing to be incarcerated
and tortured and GO HUNGRY, you know they did not feed the prisoners so
well in FSU like they do in the US, for their faith, their convictions and their
countries. Yet these men though confined, though beaten, though abused
DID NOT LOSE THEIR FREEDOM because their freedom was in their hearts
and it pained their soviet Russian captors when they could not break
their captives. By the Grace of God, today some of these men are now
leaders in the Ukrainian parliament and are struggling to raise the national
consciousness of the nation and to bring about the reforms which are so badly
needed to improve the economic lives of the Ukrainian people and for Ukraine
to achieve its potential and rightful place in the world.
> So, you admit that you offended ALL the rusians.
No, stupid, I have never tried to offend anyone, not even the Russians.
It is the Russians who have offended the Ukrainians for the past 300 years when
they murdered millions of Ukrainians, deported millions of Ukrainians to Siberia,
Khazakstan and all over Asia, settled millions of Russians in Ukraine after
depopulating the land through a genocidal famine and to this day have
made no apology.
Not to mention the pollution which their industrialization programs
produced in Ukraine including the disaster in Chornobyl.
> The fact that some
> russians partcipated in represiions gives you the right to offend them
> (and I have them not less then you), but it does not give you the right to
> offend the whole nation.
The whole German nation was held responsible for the crimes of the Nazi
government and the post war German nation was forced to pay reparations to
Russia for the Nazi crimes against Russia. So you see Luchyn it is IMHO now
Russia's turn to pay, even though I understand that Ukraine can not extract
reparations from Russia the way Russia extracted reparations from Germany.
But the Russian crimes are worse and the guilt remains and the reparations
are due.
> >> But offending people because of their national origin is facscism.
Not really, please do look the word up in the dictionary. But if that were
the case then the whole Russian parliament would be fascist by your definition
as they are always offending the Ukrainian government and people, especially
by their refusal to leave Sevastopil.
> Alex.
Regards, Dan K.
BTW, it does not make me a fascist because I feel that the Russians should go home.
When the Russians left East Germany they took all of their personnel and occupying
civilians with them, the same in Poland, Hungry, Chech Republic & Slovakia.
I think that the Estonians, Ukrainians, Latvians and perhaps some other countries
would like to see the same Russian withdrawl in their countries as well.
Please note, Luchyn it was the Russians who pulled their people out and
made room for them in Russia, they should IMHO do the same for the Russians
who are still in Ukraine. Since the economy is better in Russia, the Russians
should be eager to go back.
Henrietta Thomas
In article <3283A6...@iconn.net>,
Valentyn Katran <vale...@iconn.net> wrote:
>Henrietta Thomas wrote:
>
>> I do not agree that "the Russian nation" is responsible for the acts
>> and doings of USSR, and I would not support any attempt to extract
>> reparations from the current Russian government. Reparations are
>> appropriate only when an aggressor nation has been defeated in war.
>
>As every school child knows, the State of Israel did not exist at the
>time of World War II, so Hitler's Germany was never an "aggressor" in a
>sense suggested by you.
>And yet the State of Israel received substantial reparations (and
>rightly so) from German Federal Republic *after* State of Israel was
>established.
Nazi Germany was an aggressor state which made war on all of Europe.
Everywhere the Nazis went, Jews died. Most of the survivors went to
Palestine after the war and helped to establish the State of Israel.
Those survivors were entitled to some sort of reparations, and it was
only logical that the State of Israel step forward to represent their
interests. I do not know the details of how these reparations were set
up, but it had to have been approved by the victors in the war---USA,
USSR, Great Britain, and France. It was not the State of Israel itself
which extracted the reparations; it was the victorious powers.
>
>>This does not apply to the situation between Russia and Ukraine.
>
>According to your logic, Russia has yet to be defeated by Ukraine in
>order to qualify for reparations? ;-)
If independent Ukraine attacks independent Russia, and Russia is able to
prevail, Ukraine would be the aggressor, and Russia would be entitled to
reparations for any damage done by Ukraine during the course of the war.
Conversely, if independent Russia attacks independent Ukraine, and Ukraine
is able to prevail, then Russia would be the aggressor, and Ukraine would
be entitled to reparations for any damage done by Russia during the course
of the war.
Henrietta
h...@pop.wwa.com
Misha Verbitsky
In article <565bb7$6...@kirin.wwa.com>,
Henrietta Thomas <h...@pop.wwa.com> wrote:
>Nazi Germany was an aggressor state which made war on all of Europe.
>Everywhere the Nazis went, Jews died. Most of the survivors went to
>Palestine after the war and helped to establish the State of Israel.
Dear Henrietta, this is wrong. Something like 75% or 80%
of Holocaust survivors wound up in Soviet Union. I have
seen an exact number (but forgot), and when I have some
sleep I could ever cite the source.
Misha.
"The Christians are always singing about the blood.
Let us give them enough of it! Let us cut their throats and
drag them over the altar! And let them drown in their own blood!
I dream of the day when the last priest is strangled on the
guts of the last preacher." (Gus Hall, Chairman of the American
Communist Party).
Malec
Nick Semenov wrote:
....
> Pan Korolyshyn,
>
> I need you profound advice on how to live and where to go.
>
> The problem is .. eh.. I am half Ukrainian (by mother) and half Russian (by
> father, accordingly). Quite naturally all my life is a mess because of the
> trick of nature.
>
> One part of me hates the other while the other tries to make life horrible for
> the former. First one which I guess is Ukrainian tries to stuff my belly
> whenever slightest urge to eat comes. The other one , likely Russian, tries to
> stop it, seemingly, in order to impose exhaustion from famine.
> The Russian part of me makes me go to liquor store far too often than
> Ukrainian part would like, which blames the Russian of being stupid, idiotic,
> inconsiderate and tyrannical to the whole body. (In fact my liver was
> victimized by both parts in that war). Imagine that! Once I even overheard a
> hateful thought of Ukrainian part -- " If it was not this bully Russian ,
> meaning my father I think , I would be 100% percent bigger and stronger , I
> would be master of this organism".
>
> (The only positive part is I always had both sides of the story - but who
> needs this nowadays!).
>
> NS
Hi Nick,
I am supposed to be as wholesome person as pan Korolyshin. My both
parents are ukrainians, so according to his "black & white" mentality I
should be as hateful to every other nation as he is. But somehow I am
not. I think the problem is I've been living in Kiev too long, well 35
years. For some reason I never differentiated who were my friends -
russians, jews, georgians or ukrainians.
Now, all of a sudden, when I find myself in a free country, I happen to
come accross people who call themselves Ukrainians (though they hardly
speak the language and very often can't write in it) and who try to
teach me who I shoud hate and love. Isn't that funny?
Is life really so painfully simple - just black and white? Should we
hate people just because they belong to certain nation? Where all this
hate comes from?
I'm sure it's just a lack of intelligence. But I feel ashamed for people
like Korolyshin, who call themselves Ukrainians. They have nothing in
common with Ukrainians.
Dimitri O.
Alexander Luchin
>Luchyn, Luchyn, shame on you, I do not insult ALL who disagree with
>me, why you lyink?
As far as I followed your posts, you insulted all the people who disagreed
with you- me, Tereshenko, Sorokin, Henrietta....
>In any case, I think that it is time to chage the subject.
>We have agreed that economic life is scarcely better, if at all, in Russia.
>
I don't know whom you agreed it with, apparently not with me.
Probably we agreed that life in Russia economically is a few times better
than in Ukraine...
>But whereas the Russians have to bear the guilt of the crimes of the Soviet
>Russian and Czarist Russian Empires as well as the humiliating defeats of their
>armies in Afghanistan and Chechnya,
I don't think Russians who live today have to bear any guilt for the
crimes commited by Russia Empire or communist Soviet Union.
For the Russian empyre- how they can be responsible is they even were not
born in 1917, when the Empyre was over?
Still, conserning russian colonialism, you might be surprised, but Russia
was not the only country in the world that expanded it's territory byt
violent or non-violent ways, and in the past any country that was powerful
enough expanded its territory and had colonies- Spain, Britain, France,
Germany, Japan, even USA. Russian colonoalism was probably one of the
softest ones (before 1917), but after 1917 it is a different story.
As
for the Soviet Union, I would identify crimes of the USSR communist
repressive machine as russian, and I already wrote in one of my posts
why.
>the citizens of
the NIS countries though in many
>cases less well off economically than Russians, can at least console themselves with the
>precious freedoms which they have gained. They are now free to rebuild their
>religious and cultural institutions, they are now free to travel abroad, they are
>now free to love their countries and express that love in songs, poems and plays,
>they are now free to recapture once forbidden histories and learn the truth about
>themselves and who they are, they are now free to participate in international athletic
>competions around their world under their own banners rather than winning glory for
>a foreign evil empire.
That is not exactly true. Religion was suppressed all over in the Soviet
Union, not only in Russia itself, and people in Russia now have as much
freedom of religion as people of the other FSU countries, citizens of
Russia are now free to travel abroad, actually, as for travelling aboard,
they are more free than the citizens of some other FSU countries.
In terms of political freedom, many of the FSU countries are far from
being politically free and have less developed democracy than in Russia,
if any democracy at all (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaidzhan, Kazahstan,
Belarus').
So, many people don't see the freedom you're writing about, even though
their countries got independence, but independence is not equel to
political freedom.
> No, the economy is not as good as it should be, but it will,
>with God's help improve. And while they are working on impoving their economy
>they can enjoy the fruits of the freedoms which they have gained.
>How can one respect the opinion of Russian chauvinists. That is like
>respecting the opinions of Nazis, Japanese imperialists and Khmer Rouge.
You see- you compare people who disagree with you with Nazi, although, the
only "nazi crime" of them is that they have an opinion different from yours.
None of your opponents wrote that stalin's crimes against ukrainians were
the right thing, non of them wrote that ukrainians should be exterminated
or that russia should invade Ukraine or something like that.
I don think any of the people you call "russian chauvinist" supposr the
policy of the USSR leaders.
So, probably, my only "crime" is my opinion that people have the right to
live where they were born and speak the language they want (an opinion
apparently shared by the current ukrainian leadership but apparently not
shared by you).
>Yes, you have a point, it was a mistake for the Ukrainian government not to
>prosecute the communists and Russian chauvinists who committed crimes
>against humanity during the Soviet Russian occupation. It is still not too late
>to go after the scumbags. Look at the Jews, they are still chasing Nazi war
>criminals 50 years after WW II. The Ukrainian government should follow
>their example and pursue Soviet criminals and prosecute them as criminals
>who committed crimes against humanity. Gorbachov allowed the vicious
>evil criminal Lazar Kaganovich to die naturally without bringing the scumbag
>to justice even though the scumbag never even recanted of his evil. But
>justice is surely being served to him now.
I agree with you here, it is sad that many of nazi and almost 100% of stalin's
criminals escaped the punishment (Beria and hism gang were punished but is
is not clear whether Khrushev did it just because of the struggle for
power going on that time and because Beria endangered him and what would
have happened if Beria just gave up and resigned quitely- maybe he
would've lived to be a 100 as well). I agree that it was necessary to
bring all those responsible in death of millions of innocent people to
justice and prosecute them for crimes against humanity (a trial against
Stalinism, similar to Nurengberg trial against fascism would be appropriate).
Unfortunately it didn't happen. Unfortunately they went unpunished, and
by know almost all of them died in their beds.
Well, now people just have to learn lessons so it never happens again.
History is a very stubburn teacher, and when students refuse to learn a
lesson, history usually repeats it...
But.. it is all about Kaganovich and company, but what I was talking about
was your opponents here on usenet, who, AFAIK didn't commited any crime
(unless expressing an opinion different from yours is a crime), and I
wrote that I am not sure that if you were able to prosecute tham (so far
you can only insult) you wouldn't.
>
>Lie, Luchin, you lie.
>
Do I? Didn't you write that russians should be repatriated from Ukraine
and and other FSU countries even if they were born there? So, you deny for
then the fight to live where they were born.
Didn't you write that russian education in Ukraine should be eliminated -
so you deny the people their right to study in their native language.
Enough?
>Like I said, you do not know the meaning of freedom. This is something which
>your former soviet masters could never understand, that some men were willing to
>go to soviet labor camps for their beliefs. They were willing to be incarcerated
>and tortured and GO HUNGRY, you know they did not feed the prisoners so
>well in FSU like they do in the US, for their faith, their convictions and their
>countries. Yet these men though confined, though beaten, though abused
>DID NOT LOSE THEIR FREEDOM because their freedom was in their hearts
>and it pained their soviet Russian captors when they could not break
>their captives.
I know that there were and are people who were and are willing to
sacrifive their freedom and even lives for their freedom and the freedom
of the others, but- when things go bad the majority of people follow those
who promise them food, better life, order. Most people usually care for
their own life more then for the life of the neighbour. That's why
repressive regimes, like Nazi or Stalin's can be so successful- even
people who understand what's going on are afraid to resist.
>No, stupid, I have never tried to offend anyone, not even the Russians.
>It is the Russians who have offended the Ukrainians for the past 300 years when
>they murdered millions of Ukrainians, deported millions of Ukrainians to Siberia,
>Khazakstan and all over Asia, settled millions of Russians in Ukraine after
>depopulating the land through a genocidal famine and to this day have
>made no apology.
>Not to mention the pollution which their industrialization programs
>produced in Ukraine including the disaster in Chornobyl.
So, why don't you offend and go aftr those who did all that? Why do you
make generalizations?
>Please note, Luchyn it was the Russians who pulled their people out and
>made room for them in Russia, they should IMHO do the same for the Russians
>who are still in Ukraine. Since the economy is better in Russia, the Russians
>should be eager to go back.
Russians were never really moving to live to Eastern Europen countries,
there were army units that were withdrawn, but as for Ukraine and other
FSU countries , they were born there and I belive that it is people's
right to live where they were born, the belief apparently not shared by you.
BTW, if we take your point, then all european americans should pack their
things and move back to Europe NOW:-), or at least be good citizens and
study language of native amaricans...
Alex.
pervect
l...@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:
>
> In this message the person responding does not operates with the facts,
> but only fillings.
> 1) Ocupation
> Since the orlier years Ukraine always aply to Russia as an Older
> brother. Who are Ukrainian people there is some procentage who was living
> there for a while but also there is a lot of people who run oway from
> Russia in to Kasaki for better life. Most of the wars that Ukraine was
> involved it was supported by Russia or and Russian people. As far as the
> ocupation of 1921 goes there was a lot of Ukranian people involwed in that
> ocupation.
> 2) Killing of farmers
> There was people killed in both Russia and Ukraine and the argument
> that russian people chose to be under Tyrany is not even worth talking
> about. The problem Ukraine have is with Komunist Party of Soviet Union
> party that was formed by people from all nations not only Russian's.
>
> Something also I want to point out that if you consider your self to be an
> intelgent person with knowlage of the subject you should not be using
> slang like moskalies and sying such dum staff like go back to your
> motherland. That is there motherland As you know a lot of bepole was born
> there and they dont' know any other place. Something also to consider you
> kretik somebody or someone only if you care otherwise what is the point.
> thank you
> L.D.