Dancs din Baie Sprie si Dieter SCHLESAK
Misu Orasel Tomberg
Dieter Schlesak, un sas, poet, fost membru PCR, care pe
vremea cind traia in Romania, ca sa obtii favoruri de la
el, colegii mei sasi, se umileau ca sa intre in atentia
tovarasului secretar Schlesak.
Oricum, oportunistul Dieter, nu se dezminte, si cade pe
spate in fata lui Norman Manea si a altor evrei intelectuali
din Romania, care in cidarsie cu Iliescu, vor sa induca
opinia publica occidentala sa creada ca in Romania
miscarea legionara a renascut, si este condusa de mascaricii
curtii lui Ceausescu, Adrian Paunescu si Vadim Tudor (cu
blinda supraveghere a bufnitei de la Cotroceni).
Ca Manea si alti evrei teoreticeni ai Holocaustului romanesc
se joaca cu cifrele (de evrei morti) este un fapt notoriu.
De exemplu la memorialul Holocaustului din Baltimore figureaza
cifra de 600 000 de evrei omoriti de miinile romanilor antisemiti,
iar pe placa din fata templului Coral de in Bucuresti ni se spune
de 400 000 de evrei omoriti (macar aici se mentioneaza ca
Transilvania, Bucovina, Basarabia si Cadrilaterul si-au schimbat
stapinii).
Dar sa vedem ce ne spun conducatorii evreilor din Romania, de
la sfirsitul razboiului. Ei sustin ca in Romania interbelica
au existat 200 000 de evrei cetateni romani, si ca un numar
nedeterminat de evrei cu statut de necetateni (multi ilegali).
Dupa anumite estimari numarul acestora s-ar fi ridicat la 600 000.
Cu alte cuvinte numarul total de evrei a fost 800 000 (estimat).
La sfirsitul razboiului 40 000 de evrei lipseau (este vorba
de evreii a caror identitate se cunostea).
Totodata, numarul evreilor (cetateni, necetateni, fara nici un statut)
in Romania de la sfirsitul celui de al doilea razboi mondial era
de peste 600 000. Sa nu uitam ca un numar nedeterminat (peste 60000)
au luat calea Palestinei in timpul razboiului. Totodata sa nu uitam
ca la sfirsitul razboiului Basarabia si Bucovina au devenit teritorii
sovietice, si sa nu uitam ca razboiul a costat Romania viata
a 1 milion de romani.
Stim ca din Ardealul ocupat de unguri vreo 150 000 de evrei au
fost deportati de catre unguri in Polonia. Stim ca rusii au
deportat un numar nederminat de evrei bucovinieni si basarabeni
in Siberia sau pe aiurea. Totodata stim ca rusii au omorit
un numar apreciabil de evrei.
Din scrierile lui Manea si a lui Radu Ioanid aflam ca holocaustul
romanesc a durat citeva luni in iarna lui '41. Dupa ei, 600 000
de evrei ar fi fost lichidati in aceasta perioada. Cu alte
cuvinte, romanasii nostrii erau mai bine tehnologizati de catre
nemti, si demarasera holocaustul inaintea germanilor stiind fiind
ca abia in '42 nazistii hotarisera operatia care va fi cunoscuta
ulterior drept holocaustul, lichidarea evreilor.
Cu alte cuvinte, in creierul lui Manea si a celorlati evrei, dar
si a expertului din Baia Sprie, romanii sint number one, cei
mai grozavi macelari ai operatiei holocaust.
Nu de mult, am vizionat un film israelian despre Transnistria, si
lichidarea evreilor. Majoritatea evreilor interviati, ce se
considerau victime ale holocaustului romanesc, nu cunosteau limba
romana. Toti erau rusofoni. Totodata nici unul nu a amintit de metode
tehnologice prin care evreii ar fi fost lichidati in lagarele romanesti.
Ei vorbeau de faptul ca conditiile erau mizerabile, mincarea
era rationata, medicamentele erau putine, nu primeau ingrijiri adecvate,
sufereau datorita vremii. Moartea survenea printre cei slabi, printre
batrini, printre cei bolnavi.
Totodata, atit Manea cit si Ioanid si ceilalti autori ai holocaustului
romanesc, circumscriu zona unde s-a petrecut acest holocaust in
Transnistria, regiunile unde evreii au fost afectati fiind din
Bucovina si Basarabia (asta dupa '40, cind romanii si-au redobindit
teritoriile, si cind aceste teritorii erau pline de indivizi ce
nu aveau nimic de a face cu cetatenia romaneasca).
I-as recomanda expertului din Baia Sprie, mai ales ca cunoaste
germana sa citeasca si urmatoarele rinduri:
"So viel zum aktuellen Hintergrund. Für ein so gut wie völlig
uninformiertes Schweizer Publikum möchte man aber von solchen
Artikeln erwarten, dass sie fundiert informieren. Diesem Erwarten
genügen sie nur trügerisch. Es wurde viel zum Holocaust in
Rumänien geschrieben - die Memoiren des während des Kriegs
als Oberrabbiner Rumäniens für seine Gemeinde kämpfenden Rabbi
Shafran, «Resisting the storm», bleiben bestimmt die wichtigste
Referenz, menschlich, erfahrungsmässig und spirituell. Es ist
bedenklich, dass der Beitrag von Ionescu, der genau über
diesen Geschichtsabschnitt informieren will, diese in keinem
Satz erwähnt. Überrascht hat mich auch, dass der sonst anderen
Autoren die Ungenauigkeit von Zahlen vorwerfende Ionescu selber
von 370 000 Juden spricht, die den Holocaust in Rumänien überlebt
haben. Seit den ersten Zählungen von nach dem Krieg bis heute
war es bekannt, dass gut eine halbe Million in den
Nachkriegsgrenzen Rumäniens überlebten - wodurch Rumänien auch
das Land Europas war, wo am meisten Juden den Holocaust
überstanden hatten. Sollten 50 Jahre später Gründe für eine
Korrektur ausgeforscht werden, so wäre zu erwarten, dass
diese entsprechend dargelegt werden.
Das Thema des Holocaust birgt unendliche Trauer. Einen bitteren
Nachgeschmack hinterlässt vor allem der Beitrag von Schlesak
durch seine Formulierung, die Erinnerung an die 2 Millionen Opfer
des Kommunismus in Rumänien sei eine Art Vorwand, um den Holocaust
zu verdrängen.
http://www.home.ch/~spaw3853/artikel99_lw_transnistrien_1.htm
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Gicabulla
Coane Mishuli Io asta le iesplicam mai pa intzelesu lor adica pa romaneshte lu
medepeu si conpaniea.
Miea placut ceai zis da Io kaine doitce.
potzi sai tragi o traducere si pentru mine si altzii care nu ie din brashow?!
danke shoshon.
gica
Ashkiutza
>potzi sai tragi o traducere si pentru mine si altzii care nu ie din brashow?!
Tu crezi ca toti care e din Brasov vorbeste nemteste? Mai ales scheianul de
Misu?
Jorj
Ashkiutza <ashk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010823224711...@nso-ml.aol.com...
Egzactli, Ashkie! Parerea mea este ca textul nu-i apartine lu Meshulica.
Gicabulla
>Date: 8/24/01 6:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Kvsh7.58760$gj1.5...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
pai si ielo zise ca nu, numa ca sa da ca-l intzelege si ar fi cazu sa ne zica
si noo ce si cum.
Ashkiutza
Da' daca el l-a scris si altcineva l-a tradus?
Misu Orasel Tomberg
>brashow?!
Speram ca o face admiratorul lui Schlesak din Baia Sprie,
nu de altceva, dar stie germana.
Fiindca nu a facut-o, am sa-ti fac un scurt rezumat. Autorul
articolului nemtesc, e un tip care zice ca evreii astia
care posteaza prin occident despre holocaustul din Romania,
se joaca cu cifrele, nu sint capabili sa ofere documentatia
serioasa, se contrazic, ca de fapt studiul lor e total neserios.
Totodata zice ca Schlesak s-a cam pripit cind spune ca
romanii vor sa puna in umbra atrocitatile comise impotriva
evreilor promovind procesul comunismului.
Ceea ce este foarte adevarat. Schlesak, pe care Dancs din Baia
Sprie il citeaza lipsit de spirit critic, ba din contra,
se dovedeste un oportunist, adica incearca si el sa puna
si el laba ceva papa, trecind in tabara hahalerelor care
incearca sa faca bani dintr-o chestie pe care nu o pot dovedi.
Personal sint convins ca au existat lagare in Transnistria,
ca tigani si evrei au fost trimisi in aceste lagare. Totodata
sint informat despre atrocitatile comise impotriva evreilor
la Iasi. Totodata cunosc represalile comise dupa atentatul
impotriva cartierului romanesc de la Odesa. Totodata cunosc
arestarile facute printre sabotorii prinsi in Basarabia.
Dar totusi exista niste linii de demarcatie. Iar in acest
caz (cum am spus nu ignor persecutia impotriva populatiei civile
evreisti comisa de autoritatile romanesti), este foarte
important de a diferentia: unde s-au facut abuzuri, si unde
masurile luate au fost firesti in conditiile de razboi.
Nu fac parte din categoria celor care neaga.
Ba din contra, in definitiv, legionarii au fost lichidati
in '41, iar masurile luate impotriva lor au fost la fel
de dure.
Ei, aici apar contradictiile. Cum e posibil ca un guvern
care lichideaza miscarea legionara (eliminind fizic liderii)
sa fie denumit fascist?
Totodata cum este posibil ca lichidarea evreilor sa fi fost
conceputa in Romania, cind toate manualele ne informeaza
ca ea a fost conceputa in Germania, de catre Heidrich?
Cum e posibil ca romanii care erau slab dotati tehnic,
sa puna in functiune o intreprindere atit de mare,
lichidarea a 600 000 de evrei (si asta in citeva luni),
cind stim ca nemtii au infruntat deosebit de multe greutati
tehnice, si le-au rezolvat fiindca erau mult mai evoluati
tehnic si organizatoric de catre romanii.
Si la urma urmelor, cum este posibil ca 600 000 de evrei
sa dispara din Romania, cind la sfirsitul razboiului,
adica la instaurarea comunismului, populatia evreiasca
a Romaniei numara peste 600 000 de suflete?
Prea multe contradictii ca sa putem sa-i luam in serios
pe autorii holocaustului romanesc.
Misu Orasel Tomberg
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Gicabulla
>Nu fac parte din categoria celor care neaga.
>Ba din contra, in definitiv, legionarii au fost lichidati
>in '41, iar masurile luate impotriva lor au fost la fel
>de dure.
>Ei, aici apar contradictiile. Cum e posibil ca un guvern
>care lichideaza miscarea legionara (eliminind fizic liderii)
>sa fie denumit fascist?
initieal antonescu a fost profascist si daiea iea adus pa legionari la
guvernare, numa ca simishtii trecusera bine la nazizm. asta la facut pa
antonescu sa sa disocieze, iear rebeliunea iea dat prileju sai likideze. un
partid nazist in romaniea ar fi fost o mare amenitzare pentru mareshal carel
shtiea bine pa unkiu adolph.
mareshalu na fost legionar nici macar pentru o secunda numa ca iera profund
natzionalist si creshtin prin creshtere si ieducatzie, principii da baza ale
doctrinii legionare.
guvernu diktatorieal alu antonescu iera militar in mare numar si mai ales in
suflet si gandire iear militarii avea un dinte inpotriva ovreilor care
organizatzi in bande komuniste au atacat trupili in retragere supt presiunea
armatii roshii ce venea din urma.
nu ie eksclus ca ovreii basarabeni sa fi fost
coloana a 5cea a "puterii sovietice" instalate la noosuteopshpe da bolshevici
si pa care "agresoru" roman a nabushito in fashe.
deci militaru roman avea amintirea retragerii din basarabiea ceiea ce la facut
ca odata intors sashi iea masuri da precautzie procedind la curatzarea
basarabii da "dushmanu da classa":0)
moldova ieara mult mai infestata. probabil iera un plan sovietiq da intregirea
moldovii mari inca dupa tinpu triunphului bolshevik.
cristescu shtiea o gramada si precis ca si antonescu si ai lui avea shtire.
cert ie ca pentru antonescu sa punea problema integritatzii teritorieale fff
acut.
Io crez ca daca nemtzii nui ataca pa rushi si ar fi respectat tratatu
molotov-ribenstrop, romaniea ar fi avut soarta polonii sau ar fi ramas cu
teritoriu dintre balta ialomitzii si jii. ie posibil ca razboiu a salvat
romaniea dala pieire.
sal'tare
gica
Stephen Dancs
>
>>potzi sai tragi o traducere si pentru mine si altzii care nu ie din
>>brashow?!
>
> Speram ca o face admiratorul lui Schlesak din Baia Sprie,
> nu de altceva, dar stie germana.
>
> critic, ba din contra, se dovedeste un oportunist, adica incearca si el
> sa puna si el laba ceva papa, trecind in tabara hahalerelor care
> incearca sa faca bani dintr-o chestie pe care nu o pot dovedi.
And again in
Cu alte cuvinte, in creierul lui Manea si a celorlati evrei, dar si a
expertului din Baia Sprie, romanii sint number one, cei mai grozavi
macelari ai operatiei holocaust.
ref.: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2001082305511...@web13702.mail.yahoo.com
Pointing out that Paul Celan's parents didn't die in Auschwitz using
Norman Manea via Dieter Schlesak as a source, doesn't make one a "Schlesak
admirer" or put one in agreement with Manea's numbers (of which wasn't
even talk in the Schlesak article, btw), the same way that my knowing of
German doesn't oblige me in any way to translate German texts (which, on
top of that, weren't brought to the publikum's attention by me) to those
who don't comprehend German but in "Mishu logic". ;-))
> Totodata cum este posibil ca lichidarea evreilor sa fi fost
> conceputa in Romania, cind toate manualele ne informeaza
> ca ea a fost conceputa in Germania, de catre Heidrich?
Heydrich, whose SD (SS Security Service) which, unlike the Gestapo and
Kripo (Kriminal Polizei), had no powers of arrest, detention or
interrogation, was at least two levels down from the Führer in the Third
Reich's pecking order and could hardly have been the conceiver (of the
final solution); for those, you gotta look for higher up. ;-)
Heydrich, with a Jewish grandfather on his father's side, was, to use the
language of the 1935 Nuremberg Laws,
The Nuremberg Laws
http://historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-nurem-laws.htm
Instructional charts
http://historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-chart-nurem-laws.htm
nothing but a "blindly obedient" and "eternaly grateful" (see "The Kersten
Memoirs", 1956. Full text in the enclosure)
[Himmler to Kersten]: Latter the Führer informed me that Heydrich was a
highly gifted but also a very dangerous man, whose gifts the movement had
to retain. Such people could be used so long as they were kept well in
hand and for that purpose his non-Aryan origins were extremely useful; for
he would be eternally grateful to us that we kept him and not expelled him
and would obey blindly. That was in fact the case."
quarter-Jew (Vierteljude) -- or, officially, a "jüdischer Mischling
zweiten Grades" (2nd degree Jewish half-breed) -- whom his bosses (Hitler
& Himmler) endowed to _organize_ the final solution (see Aktion Heydrich
[Operation Heydrich]).
> Cum e posibil ca romanii care erau slab dotati tehnic,
> sa puna in functiune o intreprindere atit de mare,
> lichidarea a 600 000 de evrei (si asta in citeva luni),
> cind stim ca nemtii au infruntat deosebit de multe greutati
> tehnice, si le-au rezolvat fiindca erau mult mai evoluati
> tehnic si organizatoric de catre romanii.
Again, w/o assuming the 600,000 number as being correct, just for the sake
of argument, Hutu extremists slaughtered 800,000 mostly Tutsi civilians by
wielding mere land clearing machetes and clubs in a quick 3 months so the
issue isn't at all a technological or organizatorial one: it's much easier
to kill 'em where n' when you catch 'em than organizing military resources
consuming transports to remote places. The Nazis used the "transport to a
remote place, kill then cremate" method only in order to conceal their
criems and to not upset the local population, not 'caz they were
technologically and organizatorically much more advanced than the others.
;-)
(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
--=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs http://come.to/sdancs http://s.dancs.de
bv...@ncf.ca Fax: +1 (240) 250-1108
http://www.ncf.ca/~bv561/ Voicemail: +1 (718) 404-3905 x 5674
--encl.--
Heydrich a non-Aryan
Gut Hartzwalde
20th August, 1942
Today I treated Himmler, who was suffering from exceptional pain. When he
was at last relieved he lay back and relaxed and what I had so often
experienced happened once more. His thought, damned up, poured out like a
waterfall and herelieved himself by confiding them to me. Talk turned to
Heydrich's death. Hitler had been deeply disturbed by it. Heydrich's death
meant 'more to him than a lost battle'. Heydrich was one of the few men
who knew the right way to treat a foreign nation. If he had trampled on
the Czechs with hobnailed booths, the English Secret Service would have
kept a careful watch to make sure nothing happened to him. But because he
had made a statemanlike and intelligent approach to win over the Czechs,
he had become a dangerous enemy of the English and their plans, and had to
be removed. Shortly before he was murdered he had called together his
officials and junior SS Leaders and given them orders to go gently in
Bohemia and Moravia; in the long view that was more successful than
severity, as the Protectorate was a civilized country. A really tragic
fate. It would be very difficult to find a substitute for this highly
gifted man. Hitler had had other great tasks in view for him. He, Himmler,
would have great difficulty in nominating a successsor to control the
police.
"There's a rumour that Heydrich was not entirely Aryan. That can hardly be
true, can it?" I asked.
"Yes, it's true enough."
"Did you know that before, or have you only learnt it since his death?
Does Herr Hitler know it?" I replied, astounded.
"I already knew it when I was still head of the Bavarian political
police. I discussed the matter with the Führer at the time; he had
Heydrich brought before him, talked to him for a long time, and received a
very favourable impression. Latter the Führer informed me that Heydrich
was a highly gifted but also a very dangerous man, whose gifts the
movement had to retain. Such people could be used so long as they were
kept well in hand and for that purpose his non-Aryan origins were
extremely useful; for he would be eternally grateful to us that we kept
him and not expelled him and would obey blindly. That was in fact the
case."
While Himler talked, I remembered the servile way in which Heydrich had
always approached him and my eyes were opened. Himmler went on: "The
Führer could confidently impose anything on Heydrich--even action against
the Jews--which no one else would care to do and rest assured that it
would be carried out perfectly."
I could not keep myself from saying: "Then you have made use of one of
their own people, whom you had under your thumb, to exterminate Jews.
That's really a devilish trick!"
"What do you mean??' Himmler replied. "Just you read Machiavelli and his
teaching on raison d'état; you'll find something very different there. Do
you think that times have changed? Methods have only become more refined.
Machiavelli wouldn't have behaved a jot differently if it was a question
of saving the state and employing force which he could keep permanently
under control."
I was silent at that. Himmler ended the conversation by asking me
specifically to keep quiet about what he had just told me.
ref.: Felix Kersten, The Kersten Memoirs 1940-1945, London (Hutchinson &
Co. (Publishers) Ltd.), 1956, pp. 96-7. (With an introduction by H.R.
Trevor-Roper; translated from the German by Constantine Fitzgibbon and
James Oliver.)
--endall--
Stephen Dancs
>
>>Heydrich, whose SD (SS Security Service) which, unlike the Gestapo and
>>Kripo (Kriminal Polizei), had no powers of arrest, detention or
>>interrogation, was at least two levels down from the Führer in the Third
>>Reich's pecking order and could hardly have been the conceiver (of the
>>final solution); for those, you gotta look for higher up. ;-)
>
> hauptamt), care ingloba tot - si Gestapo si Kripo. Un sef al Securitatii
> si al Internelor. Un fel de Beria neamtz. Inca din 39. Anterior, ca
> sef al SD-ului, s'a ocupat si de spionajul/sabotajul extern. Deci era unul
> din "paladinii" autentici, nu un fitecine.
It's correct that in Sep. '39 the SD & Sipo (Kripo + Gestapo) were
consolidated in the newly created RSHA under Heydrich, yet still, in the
chain of command, he still remained two levels down from the Führer
Führer -- Adolf Hitler
Reichsführer SS -- Heinrich Himmler
Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) -- Reinhard Heydrich
Referat IV B 4 des RSHA -- Adolf Eichmann
and was merely following Himmler's orders whose SS was entrusted with the
final solution (of the Jewish question) by the Führer whose main advisors
in this regard were most probably Martin Bormann and Joseph Goebbels (and
maybe Hermann Göring).
> Doar o barfa (colportata si de colegii sai, rivali in luptele intestine
> pentru putere; de barfa asta, originara in orasu-i de bastina,
> n'a scapat nici cand a ajuns mare si tare). Asa zic sursele documentare
> din Germania (carti, ziare, TV) ori de cate ori vine vorba. Vezi e.g. si
> aici:
> http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/biographies/
> http://www.shoa.de/p_reinhard_heydrich.html
> http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/HeydrichReinhard/index.html
That HistoryPlace.com engages in shoddy history business should be clear
to everyone reading
Himmler at one point considered expelling Heydrich from the SS. But
Hitler, after a long private meeting with Heydrich, described him as "a
highly gifted but also very dangerous man, whose gifts the movement had to
retain...extremely useful; for he would eternally be grateful to us that
we had kept him and not expelled him and would obey blindly."
ref.: http://historyplace.com/worldwar2/biographies/
and who knows that the "quote" is taken from Kersten -- w/o having it
attributed to Kersten though, I guess 'caz then, those who'd bother to
look up the source, could see what the HistoryPlace's "[...]" stands in
for, namely
[Such people could be used so long as they were kept well in hand and for
that purpose his non-Aryan origins were] extremely useful...
and draw their own conclussions. ;-)
> Mai ales aici: http://h-ref.de/dk/bio/heydrich/vorfahren.shtml
> de unde citez:
>
> Der Vater Bruno Heydrich war also kein Jude, aber einer seiner "Musik-
> konkurrenten" habe das Gerücht verbreitet, er sei es. Der Künstler habe
> sich jedoch nichts daraus gemacht, es sei ihm gleichgültig gewesen.
I know the site for, after reading about Heydrich's Jewish ancestry in the
Kersten memoirs, I was shocked to not have seen it mentioned (or I shall
rather say that I didn't remebered it mentioned) in any of the books I've
read about the Czech commandos' assassination attempt on Heydrich, so I
looked up on it in a Heydrich bio which just happened to be Edouard
Calic's "Reinhard Heydrich, Schlusselfigur des Dritten Reiches"
(Dusseldorf: Droste, 1982.) and a keyword search for Bruno Heydrich led me
right to the site you mentioned above.
What can I say man, according to Calic (who is by no means a Heydrich
lover), to Bruno Heydrich (Reinhard's father, who was b. 23-Feb-1862 in
Lommatzsch, a small town near Meißen), quite contrarily to the H-Ref.de
account, the matter was far from being "gleichgültig gewesen" (of no
importance), whatmore, he did his utmost possible to quell the rumours of
his alleged Jewish ancestry by even lodging a legal complaint against "a
person or persons unknown" in an effort to find out who had started the
allegedly slanderous story.
In Calic's version, as a student at the Königlichen Konservatoriums zu
Dresden (1879-82, and again latter), Bruno invented for himself a "higher
class" genealogy by turning his often out of work and irregularly working
very poor carpenter father (Karl Julius Reinhold Heydrich, b. 15-Mar-1837
in Arnsdorf) into a "well established, talented piano maker in Meißen who
had thought him to love music" in order to be able to marry his music
professor's daughter (Elisabeth Krantz), whose class conscious parents
wouldn't have let her to marry him if they knew that he was a carpenter's
son.
After their marriage (in 1897), in 1899 he founded a music school (later
turned conservatory) in Halle an der Saale (near Dresden), which became
quite succesful so much so that the local patricians started asking
themselves who the heck was this "conservatory director Bruno Heydrich"
and so they learned that he was sending money to a lady by the name
Ernestine Süß in Meißen, whom further investigation quickly revealed that
was none other then Bruno's own mother (b. Ernestine Wilhelmine Linder, on
08-May-1862 in Lommatzsch, then married to her 2nd husband, a workman
named Gustav Robert Süß) and thus the rumour began that Bruno Heydrich was
only his professional name and that he really bore the Jewish name Isidor
Süß (also spelled as Süss, Suess). /END of Calic vresion.
> Das Gerücht sei darauf zurückzuführen, dass Heydrichs Großmutter
> väterlicherseits in zweiter Ehe mit dem Schlossergehilfen Gustav Robert Süß
> verheiratet war und sich öfter Süß-Heydrich genannt habe. Der Name Süß habe
> bei den Nachbarn offenbar den Verdacht erweckt, es müsse sich um eine
> jüdische Familie handeln. (Deschner, S. 67)
>
> Von Süß zu Heydrich gab es aber keine direkte Abstammungslinie, und
> selbst der Schlossergehilfe Süß - das zu bemerken konnte sich der
> Rassenspäher Gercke nicht verkneifen - war "übrigens ... nicht
> jüdischer Herkunft"
>
> Deschner, S. 67
So Mr. Deschner, and Calic and even more so Heinz Höhne (who went back
till 1738 and 1688 on Heydrich's fatherly and motherly side,
respectivelly,
Die väterliche bis 1738 und die mütterliche bis 1688, und
entdeckte nicht einen einzigen jüdischen Blutstropfen.
(Heinz Höhne, Der Orden unter dem Totenkopf, S. 153)
ref.: http://h-ref.de/dk/bio/heydrich/vorfahren.shtml
) tell us this n' that yet none of them seems to deliver us the simple
facts, namley where and when was Bruno Heydrich born, when did Karl
Heydrich's family move from Lommatzsch to Meißen, when did Karl pass away
in Meißen, when did his widow remarry Gustav Robert Süß there, who the
hell was Gustav Robert Süß, what became of the five daughters (according
to Calic) Ernestine Heydrich-Süß bore Gustav Robert Süß and so on.
They keep bombarding you with "Von Süß zu Heydrich gab es aber keine
direkte Abstammungslinie", and "Heydrich's grandmother had married for a
second time (_after the birth of Heydrich's father_) to a man with a
_Jewish sounding name_" (http://historyplace.com/worldwar2/biographies/ ),
here
Richard Bruno Heydrich (Born 23. Feb. 1863 in Leuben / Sachsen)
ref.: http://pub49.ezboard.com/faxisbiographicalresearchfrm1.showMessage?topicID=104.topic
they even have Bruno born in Leuben in 1863 (instead of in Lommantzsch in
1862) for God's sake! but, none of them seems to deliver the friggin'
goods and let _us_ compare Bruno's POB/DOB data to his father's death and
mother's remarriage data and make up on our own our bloody minds about it,
a fact which I find highly suspicious to say the least.
> Immer noch schwirrten die Gerüchte, und zum Nachnamen Süß gesellte sich auch
> noch der Vorname Isidor. Als die Gerüchte nicht verstummen wollten, unternahm
> Heydrich gerichtliche Schritte, die in einem Fall zu einer Gefängnisstrafe
> führten, denn für einen hohen Nazi-Funktionär galt es als ehrabschneidend,
> wenn man ihm wahrheitswidrig eine "nichtarische Abstammung" unterstellte.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, as if a Nazi court's decission in a matter involving
such a high Nazi functionary would be even worth considering. Ha, don't
tell me that you fell for this one!
> Pe scurt, zvonurile/barfele aveau la origine faptul ca mama tatalui lui
> Heydrich fusese maritata, in a doua casatorie, cu ajutorul de lacatus
> Gustav Robert Suess. Vecinii acestora aveau banuiala (bazandu-se numai pe
> numele "Suess" [ = "Sweet"]) ca tinichigiul ar fi fost Evreu. Dar Heydrich
> nu era neam cu Suess si nici insusi Suess n'avea origine evreiasca. (Vezi
> amanuntele si sursele.)
Felix Kersten is a proven Finnish anti-Nazi doctor who saved the lives of
thousands of people, including Jews. Heydrich was dead and Himmler had no
reason to lie to Kersten about Heydrich's Jewish ancestry on Aug. 20,
1942, so whom would you rather believe, a disinterested confessor or all
these other spinners who try to give the impression that they've
"researched" in detail Heydrich's ancestry yet come up with all these
different versions and, most suspiciouly, fail to deliver the straight and
simple DOB/POB/place of residence/date of marriage factums?
On top of that, we all know exactly what would befell German "researchers"
under current German law, if they'd dare even just squeak about 'im Herr
Heydrich being a quarter-Jew. Or by just trying to dwell for a lil' bit
too long on how even the mostly assimilated and enlightened, liberal
German & Austrian Jews resented the immigration and the guts of their
un-enlightened, many of them orthodox, Eastern kin (Ostjuden). ;-)
> Ca Sfertoevreu, nici pomeneala sa fi facut cariera ca ofiter, daramite in
> functiile pe care le-a avut si mai cu seama pe filiera "ordinului"
> invesmantat in negru si intemeiat pe criterii de rasa! (Daca ar fi stiut
> superiorii inca inainte sa puie mana pe putere, l-ar fi dat afara inca
> de atunci, si anume inainte sa le fi putut arata ce "talente" zaceau in
> el. Necum sa devina in 33 seful politiei *politice* din Bayern, iar
> din 36 in tot Reichul.)
Nonsense, former West German chancellor and wartime Luftwaffe officer
Helmut Schmidt was a quarter-Jew, Field Marshal Erhard Milch (deputy to
Luftwaffe chief Hermann Goering) a half-Jew, and so were other "77
high-ranking officers"
The Jews in Hitler's Military
One of [American Bryan Rigg's] discoveries was a 1944 German army
personnel document listing 77 high-ranking officers "of mixed Jewish race
or married to a Jew." Two generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major
generals and 23 colonels are on the list.
(by WILLIAM D. MONTALBANO, Los Angeles Times, Dec. 24, 1996)
ref.: http://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/rigg.bryan/press/jews-serve-nazis
Who was an "Aryan" and who was not was decided, as usually in a
dictatorship, by the Fuehrer & Co.'s whim
In one of the famous anecdotes of the time, Goering falsified Milch's
birth record and when met with protests about having a Jew in the Nazi
high command, Goering replied, "I decide who is a Jew and who is an
Aryan."
ref.: http://hoffman-info.com/jewishnazi.html
Erhard Milch an executive of the Weimar national airline (Lufthansa's
predeccessor) was a "Mischling of the First Degree" (Two Jewish
grandparents) Goering, as a civil aviation agent, was matey with him and
made him head of Research, Production and Development of the new
Luftwaffe. He became the functional head of the Luftwaffe because Goering
was also Plenipotentiary of the Five Year Plans, Warden of the Forests,
etc. Because Milch's father was 100% Jewish Milch had to have his records
Aryanised, as also happened with Hitler's favourite interpreter - he got
his certificate of Aryan purity from the Fuhrer personally as a Christmas
present. With Milch, the Nazi's prevailed upon his Mum to swear an
affidavit that for the six months surrounding Erhard's conception her
Jewish husband was away on business and she was having a torrid affair
with a named local lad. The Nazi had found a compliant local Nazi, with
impeccable Aryan lineage, to swear that it was he who was carrying on with
Mrs. Milch and that Erhard was the fruit of his loins. Milch survived WWII
and wrote memoirs.
ref.: http://martinamis.albion.edu/amisgays4.htm
>> ref.: Felix Kersten, The Kersten Memoirs 1940-1945, London (Hutchinson &
>> Co. (Publishers) Ltd.), 1956
>
> Da siehste, wie gross die Prise Salz sein sollte, wenn man
> solche Erzaehlungen heranzieht. ;)
True, yet the "Prise Salz" (grain of salt) should be as big when one
brings in the H-Ref.de Truppe, too. I for one, take Kersten's word 100
over that of those other guys.
Not to mention the fact that if you've seen Bruno Heydrich's picture in
Calic's book and also take a closer look at his son Reinhard's nose, they
do have a Jewish look, no doubt about that.
> Si pe seama lui Hitler colportara adversarii c'ar fi fost Evreu, ca fiu
> natural al medicului de familie. A recunoscut-o prin anii 80-90 si un
> fost membru marcant al organizatiei "Rote Kapelle": propaganda era
> intretinuta dinadins. (Chestiunea e abordata/explicata - motivul pt. care
> e invocata prezumtiva origine a unor capetenii naziste - si la situl de
> mai sus - ultimul.)
Again, albeit so far there's no concrete evidence that he had Jewish
ancestry, do you seriously think that, even if such evidence were
available today, it would have even the slightest chance to become known?
Don't be naive man. Papa Adolf's men meticulously combed clean all the
German & Austrian archives pertaining to him while he was still in power,
and even if they forgot something here and there, rest assured that the
Allies took care of the rest just as they now seem to have taken care of
Mr. Himmler's "suicide", too.
The world is
'not yet ready for Hitler'
ref.: http://arts.monash.edu.au/affiliates/hlc/lectures/hancock.html
and, if in the Reichsführer SS's case, it will have to wait till 2045 (see
encl.) and even then, most probably
The file on Himmler's suicide is likely to be as empty as the grave on
Lüneburg Heath.
ref.: (Preface of Hugh Thomas's "SS 1: The unlikely Death of Heinrich
Himmler", Fourth Estate, London, 2001.)
when do you think that it will be ready for the Fuehrer's story? ;=)
Here's what Robert Bell had to say about Hitler's background:
In central Europe, where the name Hitler is fairly common, it is almost
invariably a Jewish name, but there is no evidence that Adolf Hitler is of
Jewish descent and he has no Jewish physical characteristics. His parents
were Roman Catholics and he was brought up in the Catholic religion.
Curiously enough, the name of Adolf is found in Germany only among Jews.
The story goes that in a German school in 1933 the new boys were asked
their names and one after the other gave such names as Ernst, Kurt,
Hermann, Siegfried, and so on. When it came to the turn of a little Jewish
boy, he hesitated, and then said: 'You'll laugh when I tell you my name.
It's Adolf.' Although, so far as is known, Hitler is not of Jewish origin,
he can hardly be of pure 'Nordic' race, for he has certain Mediterranean
characteristics. He has the political shrewdness of an Italian or a
southern Frenchman. His mastery of the art of demagogy implies an
understanding of the psychology of the herd rarely, if ever, possessed by
a pure 'Nordic Aryan' German. (Robert Bell, Germany unmasked, 1934, p. 59)
In the Times Literary Supplement issues of the May-Aug. 2001 period some
guys argued about the "mistery of the Great War", meaning that it isn't
clear what the heck caused and kept WWI going for so long, and at one
point, one guy suggested that both sides thought that were fighting to
defend civilization and for a greater cause, to which the other guy, "no,
no, they actually didn't fight to defend civilization 'caz everyone knows
that unlike in WWII, in WWI loosing civilization wasn't in the books" to
which now a third guy interjects and says that "the point is that they
_believed_ that civilization was in peril and that's why they fought, to
defend it, and the fact that the civilization actually wasn't in peril
should count for hoot for to tell those guys that, would be just as
pointless like for a modern time traveler to tell the crusader's that they
actually fought for a God that actually doesn't exist." :))
The point isn't that it is contended by me or anybody that [Hitler] was
one quarter Jewish - there are pointers in each direction - but that he
believed he was.
ref.: http://martinamis.albion.edu/amisgays4.htm
I say that, in the end, whether the guy was indeed of Jewish ancestry, or
he just believed to be, shouldn't really upset any Jewish folks but,
I guess some people think if Hitler was one quarter Jewish there is
somehow a Jewish responsibility for the Holocaust by reason of this
lineage. Or Jew haters will get some mileage out of it.
ref. ibidem
and that's how things stand as of today and I don't think that we'll ever
get a chance to find out the historical truth soon, if ever. :(
(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
--=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs http://come.to/sdancs http://s.dancs.de
bv...@ncf.ca Fax: +1 (240) 250-1108
http://www.ncf.ca/~bv561/ Voicemail: +1 (718) 404-3905 x 5674
--encl.--
Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler's suicide by cyanide poisoning while in
British custody on 23 May 1945 has never before been subject to scrutiny.
[...] On 24 May 1945 the story of Himmler's death was broadcast to the
world. Australian War Correspondent Chester Wilmot interviewed British
Army Colour Sergeant-Major Edwin Austin, fresh from the scene of suicide
of Lüneburg. [...] His robust account was to become the official version
of events. It has been repeated by historians ever since, in spite of the
hundred-year ban imposed by the British on documentation relating to the
suicide, which one might have expected to inspire greater curiosity.
Austin's version of events has remained unchallenged until now.
In order to understand events surrounding the death of the prisoner
identified as Himmler it has been essential to obtain first-hand
information from men who were there at the time. Other witnesses far more
credible than Austin were present at the suicide. I was fortunate enough
to start my investigation at a time when key people, including doctors and
dentists, were still alive and able to pass me their recorded data. I
discovered that Himmler was not just discreetly interred: in fact the
British ordered a post-mortem. Then months after the body was buried on
Lüneberg Heath, it was exhumed and a second post-mortem examination was
conducted. Even after this second scrutiny, British inquiries into
Himmler's death continued. None of this has been reported before.
It became evident that interest in Himler's death was not just related to
concerns about the suicide's identity. Surprisingly, Kim Philby had set up
a costly secret operation 'to lay to rest the ghost of a live Himmler'.
Other intelligence personnel and financiers revealed unsuspected intrigues
and secret agreements, some seeming to suggest Himmler's post-war
influence. Through investigation, the circumstances and the exact
scientific facts about the death are now known. At long last we can savour
the uncertainty that plagued Philby in 1946.
Critical documents relating to negotiations with Himmler in Stockholm at
the end of the war have already vanished from the British Public Record
Office. When the ban is eventually lifted, the file on Himmler's suicide
is likely to be as empty as the grave on Lüneburg Heath. This book is for
those who do not want to wait until 2045. (Preface)
Hugh Thomas, "SS 1: The unlikely Death of Heinrich Himmler", Fourth
Estate, London, 2001.
---
The key question that Hugh Thomas asks from the outset, is how could an
inveterate plotter and schemer, an evil intelligence, an organisational
genius like Himmler, allow himself to be captured so easily by the Allies
at the end of the war? Was it really Himmler who was captured? Was it
really him who took the poison capsule to evade questioning, and was later
buried in mysterious secrecy on the Luneberg Heath?
...
There is "a hundred-year ban on material relating to Himmler's death, an
absence of post-mortem evidence, a paltry identification procedure,
unacceptable photographic evidence, and inconsistent and occasionally
false accounts of his death." It all adds up to a mystery as dark as
anything in the dark annals of the Nazi years.
ref.: http://amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841153060/
---
Certain physical details of the dead man at Lüneburg do seem different
from Himmler's: you can see them in the studious photos reproduced in this
book. One nostril is larger than the other, whereas Himmler's were
symmetrical. The corpse doesn't appear to sport a duelling scar, which
means that unless the dead man was wearing make-up (popular among senior
Nazis), he wasn't the son born to Anna and Dr Gebhard Himmler on October 7
1900.
ref.: http://books.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4145008,00.html
--endall--