REVOLUTIONARI IN LANTURI
Cristian Chelariu
romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) wrote:
: parerea mea e ca oamenii care au avut curajul sa se opuna deschis si in =
: strada regimului Ceausescu merita toata pretuirea romanilor...si prin =
: urmare deosebiti prin ceva de ceilalti, de exemplu niscai drepturi...ca =
Era previzibil ca domnul Romeo o sa ia apararea domnului Dan Iosif, sef de
cabinet al domnului Ion Iliescu, idolul sau politic si idealul sau moral.
Ca tot teatralismul ieftin cu legatul cu lanturile si altele asemenea sint
speculate de figuri ca Iliescu, Verdet, Vadim sau Paunescu in scopuri
politice, domnul Romeo alege sa treaca sub tacere. Ca cei care si-au
riscat viata merita pretuirea romanilor este clar. Ma gindesc la o
medalie, o diploma, un album ceva pe care sa il arate nepotilor. Hai,
poate si niste drepturi, cum ar fi ceva calatorii gratuite sau bilete
de odihna mai ieftine. Cind au iesit in strada, sint sigur ca nu au
facut-o pentru avantaje (spatii comerciale, hectare, scutiri de impozite
etc).
Pe de alta parte, mi se pare perfect legitim ca cei care au fost
raniti si urmasii celor decedati sa primeasca aceste drepturi, ca pe o
infima compensatie pentru sacrificiul pe care l-au suferit.
: in mecanismu' asta au aparut si alti ciudati asta e alta poveste...
: bine...Iliescu a zis ca a semnat 8600 de certificate de revolutionari =
: sau nu's cum draku le zice, iar restul, pana la 30 de mii, sunt =
: propuneri...asa ca, daca e ceva suspect in asta, executorii legii n'au =
: decat sa fie si mai grijulii in continuare...dar daca le e greau sa =
"au aparut" este un incintator eufemism. Au fost facuti revolutionari de
catre tatucul matale iliescu si gasca lui de escroci, ca rasplata pentru
clientelism politic. Ce-o tot scalzi atita ?
: da' stiu pe unu' care'a luat un glont in picior pentru ca trecea pe =
: langa un bazin de apa pazit, ca sa nu fie otravit de f'un terorist, de =
: un soldat vigilent...era sotul unei verisoare de'a nevesti'mi...daca nu =
: ma'nsel acela are certificat de revolutionar, ca e ranit... ce naiba
: : doar n'am sa ma duc acuma sa cer modificarea legii (sa ramana =
: revolutionari numai mortii) pen'c'a nemerit un prost ca el pe acolo...
Domnul Romeo, versat la aruncarea sopirlei, uita sa precizeze ca in
varianta guvernului nu ii va lua nimeni drepturile sotului verisoarei
nevesti-si, fiindca ranitii beneficiaza in continuare de prevederile legii
42, ca si urmasii celor decedati. (Tot n-am inteles de ce il considera
prost pe respectivu' numai fiindca a avut ghinionul sa se afle in the
wrong place at the wrong time).
: de greu ar fi sa'i selecteze pe merituosi, trebe sa le acolo neshte =
: drepturi in plus fata de ceilalti...
Ce demn suna aceasta fraza! Asa e, sa pastram neintinata demnitatea
revolutiei acordind spatii comerciale si scutiri de impozite. Uite cine
vorbeste de mercantilismul american...
Te plateste tac-tu Iliescu sau o faci din convingere?
Cristian Chelariu
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
Dr Niculae Deca via liv...@aol.com (LiviuL) says:
>
> Inventivitatea romanului a creiat ad hoc grupuri de cite trei persoane,
> fiecare dind declaratii pentru fiecare si astfel toti trei au devenit
> beneficiarii certificatului de revolutionar.
Gee, there were rumours by all people who swore that they saw me at the
University Square in Bucharest when they shot into the students that I
always categorically denied.
Boy, should have I known better, hahaha... ;-)
> In unele articole pe care le-am publicat in legatura cu legea 42/90 am
> aratat ca ea a pus bazele caracatitei in Romania, a desvoltat economia
> subterana, facind posibila aparitia retelelor de tip mafiot mai ceva decit
> cele din Italia. ^^^^^^^^
Vorba multa, saracia omului. Ia zii-ne mai "doctore" (to doctor, in the
meaning of puting a spin on things), ce sti tu despre mafia italiana? You
think that by creating cheap shot comparissons, you'll impress me? Keep
your sense of proportion man, you'll achieve much more. You remind me of
the former PM Brian Malroney comparing Canada to a Fascist state! Boy how
I would pack his ass into a time travel container and ship him back in time
to Auschwitz to get a taste of what real Fascism was...
> Nimeni nu avea timp de asa ceva, cind majoritatea celor pusi in functii
> de decizie alergau dupa obtinerea faimosului certificat aducator de
> privilegii mai ceva de cit ne cer astazi UDMR.
Other nonsense, what "privileges" is the UDMR asking for nowadays? Would
you mind detaliating a bit on that, "doc"?
> promisiunea cu cele 200 zile tot asa cred ca se va intimpla si cu aceasta
> promisiune. Mai trist pentru Domnia sa este scadera popularitatii,
> ajungindu-se la ultimul sondaj la 51%.
If I remeber correctly (someone correct me if I'm wrong), a Canadian PM's
all time historic high is 54%, so if a Canadian PM could maintain a 51%
HIGH constantly, that's PR Paradise territory here.
> Dar si-n Diaspora romanilor din America popularitatea D-lui Presedinte a
> coborit mult sub 50% datorita semnarii rusinosului tratat cu Ucraina cind
> nu aveam nicio garantie pentru acest sacrificiu istoric.
What shameful treaty and historical sacrifices are you talking about mon
bebe? If the nations of Europe would be to claim back all the territory
that they once had, it would be WW III all over again, you moron. Grow up
and concentrate on the future dummy, and try to do the best with what
you've already got, 'cause day-dreaming and nostalgia aren't very helpful...
> Nu stiu daca eram pregatiti sa facem fata cheltuielilor de circa 3
> miliarde dolari pe an timp de 12 ani, pentru a aduce inzestrarea armatei la
> standerele NATO.
You even need to think about it? Of course we weren't prepared for it. Just
keep watching Hungary's future tax policies; I don't think the Romanians
will regret having missed on the NATO train that much.
Man, when I see individuals with Dr. name-attachments talking so
non-sensically, I just wonder what is in the brains of the average Joe in
Romania nowadays.
I mean, if a loser fuckupee skin-head runs amok with a swastika, that's ok,
no big deal, the guy maybe just had a bier more than necessary. But to see
Dr types being so off the track, now THAT'S really scary! :-(
To make it clear: I agree with retrieving "revolutionary" certificates from
those who were not killed, wounded, imprisoned or didn't lose close family
members, and that's one thing, but to entagle this one issue thing with all
sorts of non-related issues like minorities' rights, NATO enlargement and
friendship treaties, that's way too much of a digression.
So "doc", keep to the issue at hand, not ad hominem attacks for perceived
failures in someone's other areas of activity. You'd do much more good.
(One step at the time, aka Think big, act small.)
--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs Tel./Fax: +1 (416) 963-9624
sda...@freenet.hut.fi http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bv561/
--
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
In a previous article, ro...@phys-iasi.ro ("romeo") says:
>
>parerea mea e ca oamenii care au avut curajul sa se opuna deschis si in
>strada regimului Ceausescu merita toata pretuirea romanilor...si prin
>urmare deosebiti prin ceva de ceilalti, de exemplu niscai drepturi...ca
>in mecanismu' asta au aparut si alti ciudati asta e alta poveste...
>pana una alta, aia care'au pus ghebu la rasturnarea lui Ceausescu se
>(re)cunosc intre ei, asa ca daca se aplica legea cu grija treaba iese
>bine...
I agree that the Romanians that put their shoulders to tople Ceausescu are
a completely different type of people than most of the others and they
should get some sort of recognition of some sort or the other, but I just
can't see how shall someone who participated but suffered no major
consequences be possessing the same certificate as those who died, lost
family members, were wounded or imprisoned for their actions.
I guess some orders of differentiation would be proper, like certificates
of the first order group 1 for those who died (I-1) and their next of kin
(I-2), 2nd order class A group 1 for those who were severely handicapped
(II-A-1; next of kin II-A-2) wounded (II-B-1; next of kin II-B-2) or
detained (II-C-1; next of kin II-C-2), and 3rd order group 1 for those
solely participating (III-1; next of kin III-2), with significantly reduced
privileges for the II-C types, and even more reduced for the 3rd order
types.
>Iliescu a zis ca a semnat 8600 de certificate de revolutionari
>sau nu's cum draku le zice, iar restul, pana la 30 de mii, sunt
>propuneri...asa ca, daca e ceva suspect in asta, executorii legii n'au
>decat sa fie si mai grijulii in continuare...dar daca le e greau sa
>discearna intre adevaratii revolutionari si profitori solutia nu e de
>a'i priva de drepturi pe cei care s'au distins in revolutie...
That's basically the correct approach no doubt about it, but as I said, I
find repugnant to give the same type of certificate w/o any concern for the
differentiation of the degrees of involvement and suffering.
>da' stiu pe unu' care'a luat un glont in picior pentru ca trecea pe
>langa un bazin de apa pazit, ca sa nu fie otravit de f'un terorist, de
>un soldat vigilent...era sotul unei verisoare de'a nevesti'mi...daca nu
>ma'nsel acela are certificat de revolutionar, ca e ranit... ce naiba
>doar n'am sa ma duc acuma sa cer modificarea legii (sa ramana
>revolutionari numai mortii) pen'c'a nemerit un prost ca el pe acolo...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that anyone is asking for the
rights of the wounded to be taken away. On the other hand, I don't think
that those who got to enjoy the fruits of their efforts in different
degrees of confort, should be treated all the same either. That just
doesn't make any sense, and leads to social tensions.
>oricum, sa ajungi in CC la Bucuresti, in timp ce Ceausescu inca mai era
>pe undeva sufland, e o treaba care trebuie respectata prin lege. oricat
>de greu ar fi sa'i selecteze pe merituosi, trebe sa le acolo neshte
>drepturi in plus fata de ceilalti...
No doubt about it, but on a progressive scale nevertheless. And in this
value system, Iliescu would only be a II-C-1'er and everyone would be
happy. :)
The values would decrease in the following order:
I-1
II-A,B-1, I-2
II-C-1, II-A-2
III-1, II-B,C-2
III-2
and with them, the special privileges provided to by law, although I'm not
so sure if the III-2 category shall ever be created. Due to certain legal
challenges, I'd be inclined to vote for creating it, but with some huge
reservations.
Oh, and I almost forgot: this is SD's bug-reincarnation speaking, so
where's his I-1??? ;-)
(2 SENtSE.)
Cristian Chelariu
romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) wrote:
:
: pai de'aia am dat exemplu' cu ranitu' din prostie...
BTW, ai uitat sa pui virgula dupa apostrof...
Cristian Chelariu
Cristian Chelariu
In categoria asta intra probabil si cei care au mers la televiziune cind
i-a chemat tatucu-tau Iliescu si pretenii lui, ca sa crape de pomana, sa
arate frumos lovilutia la televizor...
: sau de prostia celor care trageau =
Pai da, norocul lui tatucu-tau, cind vorbea din balcon, ca teroristii cu
pricina erau baieti destepti si n-au gresit...
: da' nu stiau in ce sau nu stiau cum...ei au certificat, ok by me, n'o sa =
: faca nimeni anchete sa vada daca cineva a murit sau a fost ranit din =
: greseala...
Si in razboi se moare din greseala si nu face nimeni ancheta. Si acolo se
face distinctie intre drepturile veteranilor si cele ale ranitilor sau
urmasilor celor decedati. Da' asa suntem noi, originali...
: cat despre cei in viata si sanatosi, nu e vina lor c'au ramas asha si =
: n'o sa'i omor io ca sa merite certificatu' de revolutionar...la urma =
: urmei daca tot e pe modificatelea atunci :
: sa se faca mentiunea pe certificat ca purtatoru' n'a murit si nici n'a =
: fost ranit...
Rotund si-n colturi le judeci nenicule...
: dar nu e necesara nici asta, deosebirea intre vii si morti e evidenta :)
... da' ai haz...
: de ce nu suporta nimeni eroi in viata?o grama'de tipi ziceau de Dan =
: Iosif ca'i un prostovan; poate e adevarat, ei si ce'i cu asta? aia mai =
: inteligenti unde drakului erau? se stergeau la gura?
Da' nu coeficientul de inteligenta ar trebui sa-i fie reprosat lui Dan
Iosif, fiecare cu ce l-a daruit Dumnezeu. Ceea ce nu inteleg eu este de ce
Iliescu, din atitia oameni destepti si cu studii citi are partidul, l-a
pus sef de cabinet pe Dan Iosif? Fiindca e revolutionar? Sint o gramada de
revolutionari si destepti si cu studii. Da' el il alege pe Dan Iosif. De
ce? Eu unul imi pastrez rezervele in priviinta lui Dan Iosif pina cind se
va afla adevarul despre Revolutie. Iar eroi in viata sint gramada si
n-are nimeni nimnic cu ei, sint atitia veterani de razboi si raniti din
revolutie pentru care din '89 incoace nu s-au gasit destui bani...
In treacat, nu ma pot impiedica sa nu observ ca din citirea atenta
a textului de mai sus reiese faptul ca in viziunea Domnului Romeo,
revolutia au facut-o prostovanii in timp ca inteligentii se stergeau la
gura.
: >I guess some orders of differentiation would be proper, like =
: certificates
: >of the first order group 1 for those who died (I-1) and their next of =
: kin I-2), 2nd order class A group 1 for those who were severely =
: handicapped
I fully agree...
: bun si'asa, da' propunerea de modificare de la guvern e sa desfiinteze =
: clasa celor vii :(
Premiul pentru perseverenta la aruncare sopirlei! In varianta
modificata a legii ranitii isi pastreaza privilegiile.
: >That's basically the correct approach no doubt about it, but as I said, =
: I find repugnant to give the same type of certificate w/o any concern
: for the differentiation of the degrees of involvement and suffering.=20
Couldn't be said better!
: s'a ajuns deja la tensiuni sociale, numai pen' ca s'a gasit un destept =
: de pe la minister sa reinterpreteze revolutionarii, nu se ajungea deja =
: aici daca se aplica gospodareste legea...
Si cine a aplicat domle legea? Nu alde Bebe Ivanovici si altii ca el pe
care ii tine in brate tatucu-tau cel sarac si cinstit? Si asociatiile
astea de revolutionari de ce n-au protestat cind au vazut ca li se
ingroasa rindurile in mod artificial? Cine trebuia sa protesteze? Mortii
din groapa?
: propunerea guvernului n'avea nimic progresiv in ea...
Ba are, da' nu vrei matale s-o vezi. Sint doua trepte: cei care au suferit
pierzind pe cei dragi sau fiind raniti si carora li se acorda o
recunoastere morala si materiala pentru sacrificul suferit, si treapta a
doua, a celor care au participat la revolutie, carora li se acorda o
recunoastere morala pentru curajul lor. Ai vreo problema?
: si zic asa, pentru ca jertfa totala a unora poate avea aceeasi valoare =
: cu a celor care au dus treaba la capat...
Cum ziceam, ai o problema cu logica. Jertfa totala stiu ce inseamna. Ce au
jertfit ranitii, stiu si asta. Da' ce jertfa au facut cei care "au dus
treaba la capat" asta ai uitat sa ne spui.
: si genereaza tot felul de interpretari ciudate, precum cea a lu' dom' =
: doftor... :0
Detaliaza. Ce anume e ciudat?
Cristian Chelariu
Cristian Chelariu
romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) wrote:
: >Era previzibil ca domnul Romeo o sa ia apararea domnului Dan Iosif, sef =
: >cabinet al domnului Ion Iliescu, idolul sau politic si idealul sau =
: moral.:
: iar ai inteles de'andoaselea, nu asta'i subjetu mesajului meu...
Da' care-i domle subjetu? Nu sustii aceleasi lucruri pe care le sustine si
Dan Iosif? Nu e el cel care s-a legat cu lanturi si face cea mai mare
galagie? Nu speculeaza seful lui chestia asta? Ce-am inteles
de-andoaselea?
: iar domnu' Dan Iosif asa cum e el, a facut mai mult pentru Romania decat =
: aracan imaginatia matale...
Despre patriotismul domnului Dan Iosif vom avea o imagine mai completa
dupa ce vom afla tot adevarul despre lovilutie.
: daca tot te'ai bagat, adu'ti aminte de studentii din piata univ. sau de =
: mineri si PNTCD...
Cu studentii din Piata Universitatii n-ai dreptate. Cu minerii si
congresul PNTCD, da, asa e, conducerea PNTCD a gresit. Au mai facut si
alte greseli. Da' totusi nu ei au chemat minerii la Bucuresti.
: singura diferenta e ca Iliescu a participat la revolutie :)
: daca Iliescu ar fi fost josnic ca antecesorii lui in ale opozitiei, s'ar =
: fi facut balcon pri'mprejur...da' uite ca n'a
Ai putea substantia ideea cu josnicia fostei opozitii. Cit priveste
participarea lui Iliescu la Revolutie si faza cu balconul, asta e una din
cele mai mari dileme din decembrie 1989, si ca si in cazul lui Dan Iosif,
prefer sa o pun sub semnul intrebarii.
Cum spuneam, matale ai o problema cu logica. In cazul asta esti
inconsecvent. Desi sint lucruri neclare despre revolutie, matale alegi sa
CREZI pe Iliescu, cu toate ca ziceai in thread-ul "Actiune comuna pentru
Romania" ca matale nu crezi pina ce nu intelegi. Da' nu dispera, sint
exercitii pentru stimularea capacitatii de rationare si a
discernamintului, bata-l vina...
: pai nu de raniti si urmasi e vorba, propunerea guvernului e, practic, =
: sa'i scoata pe revolutionarii in viata din categoria de =
: revolutionari...ce'mi tot bagi ranitii pe gat, mata si =
: guvernu'...modificarea se refera la aia care traiesc si (vaz ca din =
: pacate) au iesit sanatosi din decembrie, nu la morti sau mutilati...
A zis cineva ca din pacate? Iar bagi sopirle.
: tine'o langa tot asha ca te las sa vorbesti singur...
Chiar ma intreb cind ai sa-ti dai seama ca ai un discurs neargumentat,
ilogic si incoerent si ai sa te cufunzi inapoi in spatiul matale
bahluvian...
: pai am scris clar ca Iliescu a semnat doar 8600 certificate, mintea =
: matale nu incape atatia revolutionari adevarati? si nu 30000, in care =
: intra si mascarile de care zici
Intrebarea mea este de ce tolereaza Iliescu personaje ca Bebe Ivanonici
linga el, daca e asa curat pe cit se pretinde.
: pai vezi ca iar esti pe aratura? io vorbesc de drepturile celor care'au =
: participat la revolutie si, culmea indignarii domniei tale, inca sunt =
: sanatosi....
Domle, sa fie sanatosi, vaz ca ei nu vor, ca fac greva foamei, ca ce, de
aia au luptat ei, pentru recunoastere morala? Ar trebui sa se infiinteze
Asociatia mercenarilor din Decembrie...
: ca s'arat ca si pe la =
: raniti/morti lucrurile sunt relative desi asta nu determina modificarea =
Cum vine domle treaba asta cu lucrurile mortilor care sint relative? Vezi
ca dai in chestii de alea lunatice...
: asa obisnuiesc io, sa'i consider prosti si pe aia care pica la un wrong =
: place at the wrong time...
Cam aspru. Si de aceea neintelept.
: mi'ai dat ocazia sa'ti mai zic una da uite, ma abtin....
Uite asta ma face sa cred ca poate, poate, ma insel in priviinta ta...
: sa'nteleg ca mata esti virgin de vorbeai mai adineauri de credinta si ai =
: intinat'o cu tehnicile sexuale stramosesti?=20
: cam la fel e mesaju' matale...
Nu vad de unde paralela intre mesajul meu si sexualitate (afara doar de
cazul in care o fi vreo obsesie de-a matale). Cit priveste raspunsul
matale, este ca de obicei ilogic. Daca ma rogi, iti explic si de ce ;-)...
: >Te plateste tac-tu Iliescu
: nu, ma plateste ma'ta Constantinescu
: > sau o faci din convingere?
: da, te fac din convingere...
Ai haz, nene! Si esti asa subtil...
Dom' doftor iti recomanda o punga de gheata pe crestet.
Cristian Chelariu
Dartu Catalin
Test...
In sfarsit am ajuns si eu pe aici.
Se pare ca dornenii sunt mai cu motz....
:))
Toate cele bune,
Catalin
romeo
Dorin M. Petre wrote in message =
<3451681d...@nntp.interaccess.com>...
>On 23 Oct 1997 15:51:13 GMT, gs1...@panther.gsu.edu (Cristian
>Chelariu) wrote:
>
>>Te plateste tac-tu Iliescu sau o faci din convingere?
>
>Daca insa o face din convingere, atunci io i'as sugera sa se duca ori
>la un psihiatru, ori la un popa! Cu medicatie de rigoare si voia lui
>Dumnezeu, se vindeca la sigur!
>
>Dorin M. Petre
>
da pe mata nu s'a gasit nimea' sa te vindece inca?
romeo
Cristian Chelariu wrote in message <62qkbf$s2e$1...@arachnid.Gsu.EDU>...
>romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) wrote:
>: >Era previzibil ca domnul Romeo o sa ia apararea domnului Dan Iosif, =
sef =3D
>: >cabinet al domnului Ion Iliescu, idolul sau politic si idealul sau =
=3D
>: moral.:=20
>: iar ai inteles de'andoaselea, nu asta'i subjetu mesajului meu...
>
>Da' care-i domle subjetu? Nu sustii aceleasi lucruri pe care le sustine =
si
>Dan Iosif? Nu e el cel care s-a legat cu lanturi si face cea mai mare
>galagie? Nu speculeaza seful lui chestia asta? Ce-am inteles=20
>de-andoaselea? =20
>
subjetu'i ca nu'i iau apararea lui Dan Iosif (seful de ... bla bla) ci a =
revolutionarilor care inca traiesc...
>: iar domnu' Dan Iosif asa cum e el, a facut mai mult pentru Romania =
decat =3D
>: aracan imaginatia matale...
>Despre patriotismul domnului Dan Iosif vom avea o imagine mai completa
>dupa ce vom afla tot adevarul despre lovilutie.=20
>
adevarul pe care'l vrei matale n'o sa'l afli niciodata...adevarul despre =
revolutie e suficient de limpede ca sa nu justifice denumirea de =
lovilutie... :(
>: daca tot te'ai bagat, adu'ti aminte de studentii din piata univ. sau =
de =3D
>: mineri si PNTCD...
>Cu studentii din Piata Universitatii n-ai dreptate. Cu minerii si
>congresul PNTCD, da, asa e, conducerea PNTCD a gresit. Au mai facut si
>alte greseli. Da' totusi nu ei au chemat minerii la Bucuresti. =20
>
nici ailalti nu i'au chemat, da iarasi nu asta'i subjetu'=20
asa pare ca'i cu politicienii in general, se amesteca unde cred ei ca le =
poate creste cota electorala, mai fac si greseli, deh, parerea mea e ca =
asa se invata politica intr'o democratie veche de 7 ani...
ce'ar fi daca m'as duce si io printr'o piata si sa strig jos Ciorbea sau =
jos Constantinescu, pentru minciunile pe care le'mpusca? astept =
alegerile, pana atunci ii las sa'nvete ce'i aia guvernare, mi se pare =
prostesc sa'i pisez io sau sa'i piseze opozitia cu mitinguri off track =
cum erau cele din 91 - '93 pe tema anticomunismului :)
mitingurile care taxeaza greseli de guvernare devin necesare cand in =
parlament nu te baga nime'n sama...
>: daca Iliescu ar fi fost josnic ca antecesorii lui in ale opozitiei, =
s'ar =3D
>: fi facut balcon pri'mprejur...da' uite ca n'a
>
>Ai putea substantia ideea cu josnicia fostei opozitii. Cit priveste
sa fiu sincer, imi substantiez ideile numai cu cine are de gand sa le =
bage'n sama...
totusi un hint:=20
tema anticomunismului in Romania era irelevanta din start iar opozitia =
de atunci pedala pe asta pe plan intern si (vai de capu' lor s'al =
nostru) pe plan international
lipsa de experienta in ale guvernarii nu era suficienta in a'i acuza pe =
cei din fosta putere la tot pasul de manareli diabolice...eu insumi nu'l =
consideram pe Iliescu un tip care sa exceleze prin inteligenta, dar nici =
nu asteptam asta de la el...asteptam sa se'nfiga bine democratia'n =
Romania si asta s'a si intamplat...
>participarea lui Iliescu la Revolutie si faza cu balconul, asta e una =
din
>cele mai mari dileme din decembrie 1989, si ca si in cazul lui Dan =
Iosif,
>prefer sa o pun sub semnul intrebarii.
am pus'o si eu in '90, am fost foarte atent 2 ani la ce s'a intamplat pe =
scena politica romaneasca si mi'e suficient de clar...daca o dilema =
dureaza prea mult e din vina observatorului...
> Cum spuneam, matale ai o problema cu logica. In cazul asta esti
>inconsecvent. Desi sint lucruri neclare despre revolutie, matale alegi =
sa
>CREZI pe Iliescu, cu toate ca ziceai in thread-ul "Actiune comuna =
pentru
>Romania" ca matale nu crezi pina ce nu intelegi. Da' nu dispera, sint
>exercitii pentru stimularea capacitatii de rationare si a
>discernamintului, bata-l vina...
>=20
ti'am zis odata, da la matale e clar ca doar repetitia'i mama invatarii, =
la mine credinta vine numai dupa intelegere...
>: pai am scris clar ca Iliescu a semnat doar 8600 certificate, mintea =
=3D
>: matale nu incape atatia revolutionari adevarati? si nu 30000, in care =
=3D
>: intra si mascarile de care zici
>
>Intrebarea mea este de ce tolereaza Iliescu personaje ca Bebe Ivanonici
>linga el, daca e asa curat pe cit se pretinde. =20
>
pentru ca nu'i treaba lui sa'i dovedeasca pe marlani...daca stie cineva =
sa'i dovedeasca n'are decat s'o faca...fii sigur ca n'are sa se duca =
Iliescu sa'l scoata din puscarie...
cum adica Bebe Ivanovici e langa Iliescu, tipul asta era langa senatorul =
Vetisan (PNTCD) seful comisiei de certificare :)
sa te'ntreb si io de ce tolera Iliescu pe Vetisan langa el?pai nu se =
pune problema in termenii ca'l tolereaza sau nu, astia au fost numiti in =
functie de comitii parlamentare...
da, se vede treaba ca te dai democrat, da' te scoli cu noaptea'n cap =
si'asa ramai peste zi..
>: pai vezi ca iar esti pe aratura? io vorbesc de drepturile celor =
care'au =3D
>: participat la revolutie si, culmea indignarii domniei tale, inca sunt =
=3D
>: sanatosi....
>Domle, sa fie sanatosi, vaz ca ei nu vor, ca fac greva foamei, ca ce, =
de
>aia au luptat ei, pentru recunoastere morala? Ar trebui sa se =
infiinteze
>Asociatia mercenarilor din Decembrie...
>
dom'le, un lucru e foarte clar pana acum, matale nu meriti nici sa'i =
pupi in cur pe aia de fac greva acu'...
>: ca s'arat ca si pe la =3D
>: raniti/morti lucrurile sunt relative desi asta nu determina =
modificarea =3D
>
>Cum vine domle treaba asta cu lucrurile mortilor care sint relative? =
Vezi
>ca dai in chestii de alea lunatice...
>
asa'mi trebuie, cine nu'si cauta parteneri de discutie pe masura patzesc =
la fel...
>: asa obisnuiesc io, sa'i consider prosti si pe aia care pica la un =
wrong =3D
>: place at the wrong time...
>Cam aspru. Si de aceea neintelept.
>
asa o fi, da'mi simplifica viata foarte eficient..(vezi sfarsitul =
mesajului)
>: mi'ai dat ocazia sa'ti mai zic una da uite, ma abtin....
>Uite asta ma face sa cred ca poate, poate, ma insel in priviinta ta...
>
partea trista e ca pentru mine e total irelevant daca mata' te inseli =
sau nu in ce ma priveste...
>: sa'nteleg ca mata esti virgin de vorbeai mai adineauri de credinta si =
ai =3D
>: intinat'o cu tehnicile sexuale stramosesti?=3D20
>: cam la fel e mesaju' matale...
>
>Nu vad de unde paralela intre mesajul meu si sexualitate (afara doar de
>cazul in care o fi vreo obsesie de-a matale). Cit priveste raspunsul
>matale, este ca de obicei ilogic. Daca ma rogi, iti explic si de ce =
;-)...=20
>
aici asa e, m'am grabit cu scrisu'...da o iau de la capat pentru matale =
si pentru cetitoriu...
matale ai scris :
"Asa e, sa pastram neintinata demnitatea revolutiei acordind spatii =
comerciale si scutiri de impozite. Uite cine vorbeste de mercantilismul =
american... "
reformulez:
intinam demnitatea revolutiei prin acordarea de drepturi =
revolutionarilor in viata, la fel cum matale'ti intinezi credinta =
practicand sex la modul stramosesc....cu logica mea sucita bag sama ca =
matale esti virgin...
>: >Te plateste tac-tu Iliescu
>: nu, ma plateste ma'ta Constantinescu
>: > sau o faci din convingere?
>: da, te fac din convingere...
>
>Ai haz, nene! Si esti asa subtil...
iarasi, ca sa fii subtil tre'sa ai cu cine...
>Dom' doftor iti recomanda o punga de gheata pe crestet.
>
iar io imi pun un filtru pe mesajele matale, ca'mi pierd vremea'n van
Dorin M. Petre
>Te plateste tac-tu Iliescu sau o faci din convingere?
Daca'l plateste Ilici, atunci tot respectul pentru Romeo! In definitiv
e perfect normal sa'i sufle cu paiu'n poponeata aluia care l-a
cumparat cu pret cinstit!
Dorin M. Petre
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:54:09 +0300, "romeo" <ro...@phys-iasi.ro>
wrote:
>da pe mata nu s'a gasit nimea' sa te vindece inca?
Ba da, Iliescu si ai lui, inca de prin anii 60! Ba c-un pumn in gura,
ba cu saculetu' de nisip la rinichi, uite asa m'au vindecat baietii de
ciuma rosie.
Tu esti baiat tanar, Romica, asa ca ai incredere in Dumnezeu si
stiinta medicala si oi scapa si tu mai usor ca mine: fara sa mai treci
prin fizioterapia lu' Ciomag!
Dorin M. Petre
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
Romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) writes:
>Dorin M. Petre "Dinozauru'" wrote:
>>Cristian "Chelu'" Chelariu (gs1...@panther.gsu.edu) wrote:
>>>
>>> Te plateste tac-tu Iliescu sau o faci din convingere?
>>
>> Daca insa o face din convingere, atunci io i'as sugera sa se duca ori
>> la un psihiatru, ori la un popa! Cu medicatie de rigoare si voia lui
>> Dumnezeu, se vindeca la sigur!
>
> da pe mata nu s'a gasit nimea' sa te vindece inca?
Am tot incercat eu sa-l vindec pe domnu' Dinozauru', da-i greu sa faci asa
ceva cind si medicamentele au disparut odata cu ei, iar alea fosilizate au
acea problema "minora" cu termenul de expirare, if you know what I mean,
hahaha... ;-)
(The Jurasic Park Attendant.) :)
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
Romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) writes:
>Cristian Chelariu wrote:
>>
>>aia au luptat ei, pentru recunoastere morala? Ar trebui sa se infiinteze
>>Asociatia mercenarilor din Decembrie...
>
>dom'le, un lucru e foarte clar pana acum, matale nu meriti nici sa'i
>pupi in cur pe aia de fac greva acu'...
Ca bine zis-ai, mon cher. :) Marea majoritate a ilotzilor au petrecut
revolutia sti^nd pin casele lor cu perdeaua trasa si ateptind sa vada cum o
sa iasa inclestarea. Acum, au probleme cu aia care si-au miscat ciolanele
sa mai faca si niscaiva eforturi, cit de mici, dar nevertheless, eforturi,
ca sa faca rezultatul sa iasa pe fagasul pe care cu totii l-am dorit.
A face o paralela intre suportul tau pt satisfacerea dorintzele lor de
recunoastere materiala (pe care le merita pe deplin) si condamnarea ta
vehementa a mercantilismului american, si a nu vedea deosebirea calitativa
intre cele doua si ca urmare concludind ca undeva trebuie sa fie o
contradictie, mi se pare dea dreptul un lucru infantil.
But I guess the quote right below explains everything... ;-)
>asa'mi trebuie, cine nu'si cauta parteneri de discutie pe masura patzesc
>la fel...
No kidding? :)
>asa o fi, da'mi simplifica viata foarte eficient..(vezi sfarsitul
>mesajului)
>...
>iarasi, ca sa fii subtil tre'sa ai cu cine...
>...
>iar io imi pun un filtru pe mesajele matale, ca'mi pierd vremea'n van
But Romeo, from were would we then get material for our research of human
delusion, hahaha?! I mean, e una sa-i enjoy elucubratiile sub-mentale si
sa decizi sa-l lasi in plata Domnului pt a nu-ti mai pierde vremea in mod
inutil, si alta e ca sa-l filtrezi, si sa-ti bagi capul ca si strutzul in
nisip (chestia cu strutzul nu e adevarata, but I guess, ne-am luat si noi
prea mult dupa cheli... ;-) LOL )
Pina si papa Adolf a avut citeva fraze bune in tona sa de guano din Mein
Kampf, just think about it. Doar nu vrei sa scapi cumva o perla doar din
cauza approachului, do you? ;-)
(A co-thinker.) :)
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
In a previous article, ro...@phys-iasi.ro ("romeo") says:
>Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote in message =
>
>cat despre cei in viata si sanatosi, nu e vina lor c'au ramas asha si
>n'o sa'i omor io ca sa merite certificatu' de revolutionar...la urma
>urmei daca tot e pe modificatelea atunci :
>
>sa se faca mentiunea pe certificat ca purtatoru' n'a murit si nici n'a
>fost ranit...
>
>dar nu e necesara nici asta, deosebirea intre vii si morti e evidenta :)
Idea era de a da privilegii diferite, la categorii diferite, cu privilegii
mai significante date celor din categoriile de mai din virful piramidei.
>de ce nu suporta nimeni eroi in viata?o grama'de tipi ziceau de Dan
>Iosif ca'i un prostovan; poate e adevarat, ei si ce'i cu asta? aia mai
>inteligenti unde drakului erau? se stergeau la gura?
Ca-n orice societate, ai' inteligenti se ascundeau in spatele prostilor,
care fiind ei asa mai scunzi de statura, la unii, gloantzele doar le-au
suierat deasupra capetelor, hahaha... ;-)
>bun si'asa, da' propunerea de modificare de la guvern e sa desfiinteze
>clasa celor vii :(
Chiar asa sa fie??? Ce-ar fi ca cineva sa ne publice proiectu de lege? Any
volunteers around?
>asa'i, nu ma bate gandu' sa propun ridicarea drepturilor nimanui, da'
>nici sa fac o gradare atat de fina asa cum propui, chiar daca nu rea in
>sine....
Well, daca as fi un invalid de clasa II-A-1, nu cred ca mi-ar place ca
cineva "worth only" a III-2 distinction sa aibe aceleasi beneficii ca si
mine. Daca nu pe chestia etico-morala, atunci doar din cauze simple
economico-financiare: un invalid are o situatie mai dezavantajata in
societate, si deci suferinta-i trebuie alienata ceva mai mult decit la un
altul care a avut norocul sa scape nevatamat.
>s'a ajuns deja la tensiuni sociale, numai pen' ca s'a gasit un destept
>de pe la minister sa reinterpreteze revolutionarii, nu se ajungea deja
>aici daca se aplica gospodareste legea...
Nu am urmarit evenimentele destul de qaprope ca sa-mi pot da seama
care-i explicatia reala, insa cred ca buba e intre revolutionarii reali
care au suferit, si cei care nu au suferit si reactia guvernului la
"frecarea" celor doua grupuri invidioase si plingaretze.
>propunerea guvernului n'avea nimic progresiv in ea...
Si cred ca asta-i adevarata problema...
>>value system, Iliescu would only be a II-C-1'er and everyone would be
>>happy. :)
>
>eu probabil nu :)
>si zic asa, pentru ca jertfa totala a unora poate avea aceeasi valoare
>cu a celor care au dus treaba la capat...alegerile din noiembrie '96
>sunt dovada indubitabila ca decembristii n'au murit degeaba (si
>celelalte alegeri au fost dovezi indubitabile, da' numai pentru alde
>astia ca mine)...desi era posibil...
>
>mai an, majoritatea scr-istilor era de acord ca Iliescu era handicapat
>deci, dupa ei, ar merita IIA,B :)
Hahaha... point taken! :)
>ideea ar fi fost buna la momentul aparitiei legii, o fi buna si
>acuma...da modificarea e prea tarzie si inoportuna (alte sunt belelele)
>si genereaza tot felul de interpretari ciudate, precum cea a lu' dom'
>doftor... :0
Hei, mai bine tirziu ca niciodata. Cit despre interpretari de alea
doftorite de doftori cheli, intr-o adevarata democratie care se respecta si
demna de a purta numele de democraZie, trebe sa-si aibe si ele locu', ca
doar nu putem exclude a priori tot ce e produs de ai cheli si ciudati...
Omu' trebe sa aibe dretu' sa fie chel si ciudat... as they say here, it
comes with the territory... ;-)
Nu degeaba zicea si Churchill ca democratzia nu este un sistem bun,
problema fiind insa, ca nu este nimic mai buna ca EA... un fel de
Laplacian "best possible of all worlds possible"...
>mai degraba propunerea guvernului arata ca sunt neinstare sa aplice o
>lege cu grija....fapt care promite multe...
Cam greu sa aplici drept o lege strimba, domnu'...
>>Oh, and I almost forgot: this is SD's bug-reincarnation speaking, so
>>where's his I-1??? ;-)
>
>huh?
Oh, nothing of significance, just jerking around... (S)tephen (D)ancs,
Budhism, egos, that sort... :)
Regards,
romeo
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote in message =
<62theg$nl3$1...@learnet.freenet.hut.fi>...
>
>Romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) writes:
>>Cristian Chelariu wrote:
>>iar io imi pun un filtru pe mesajele matale, ca'mi pierd vremea'n van
>
>But Romeo, from were would we then get material for our research of =
human
>delusion, hahaha?! I mean, e una sa-i enjoy elucubratiile sub-mentale =
si
>sa decizi sa-l lasi in plata Domnului pt a nu-ti mai pierde vremea in =
mod
>inutil, si alta e ca sa-l filtrezi, si sa-ti bagi capul ca si strutzul =
in
>nisip (chestia cu strutzul nu e adevarata, but I guess, ne-am luat si =
noi
>prea mult dupa cheli... ;-) LOL )
>
ai tu dreptate, da'i un plus de confort sa'i las pe unii sa stea default =
in filtru, si sa'i scot de'acolo doar cand am chef de "research of human =
delusion" :), ori pohta de artzag, ori de dragu'ntelegerii firului in =
intregu'i..
unde mai pun ca'mi complica browsingu' prin mesaje :)
>Pina si papa Adolf a avut citeva fraze bune in tona sa de guano din =
Mein
>Kampf, just think about it. Doar nu vrei sa scapi cumva o perla doar =
din
>cauza approachului, do you? ;-)
>
dau peste ele'n fiecare zi si mi's tare satul, careva'zica de la un =
punct incolo nu ma mai amuza ci ma'ntristeaza :(=20
sunt sigur c'are sa faca cineva si'o culegere de "perle"..s'am s'o =
cumpar pen'c'are sa coste sigur mai putin decat timpul pe care l'as =
pierde, you know, fara filtru...=20
=20
romeo
http://www.phys-iasi.ro/htsc/romeo/
romeo
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote in message =
<62tl0a$lr7$1...@learnet.freenet.hut.fi>...
>
>>Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote in message =3D
>>
>>bun si'asa, da' propunerea de modificare de la guvern e sa desfiinteze
>>clasa celor vii :(
>
>Chiar asa sa fie??? Ce-ar fi ca cineva sa ne publice proiectu de lege? =
Any
>volunteers around?
>
nu chiar asa, m'am grabit sa scriu si corectez: propunerea de modificare =
de la guvern e sa desfiinteze drepturile "mercantile" pentru clasa =
revolutionarilor vii si neranitzi (inca)..
zicea cineva ca totusi vor fi recunoscuti moral, pai ii recunosc moral =
si fara decizia onor' guvernului...
ce naiba, sunt 8600, din 23 milioane nu ne'om putea permite atata lucru?
>>asa'i, nu ma bate gandu' sa propun ridicarea drepturilor nimanui, da'
>>nici sa fac o gradare atat de fina asa cum propui, chiar daca nu rea =
in
>>sine....
>
>Well, daca as fi un invalid de clasa II-A-1, nu cred ca mi-ar place ca
>cineva "worth only" a III-2 distinction sa aibe aceleasi beneficii ca =
si
>mine. Daca nu pe chestia etico-morala, atunci doar din cauze simple
>economico-financiare: un invalid are o situatie mai dezavantajata in
acuma sincer, crezi ca un revolutionar invalid e invidios pe unul =
sanatos ca are aceleasi drepturi ca si el? cred ca mai mult ne gandim =
noi la asta decat ei...
inc'odata, as fi fost multumit ca propunerea sa semene cu a ta, da' nu =
samana :(=20
asa incat poate ca argumentele tale or sa fie cu folos pentru cei care =
vor modifica legea in viitor :)
>>s'a ajuns deja la tensiuni sociale, numai pen' ca s'a gasit un destept
>>de pe la minister sa reinterpreteze revolutionarii, nu se ajungea deja
>>aici daca se aplica gospodareste legea...
>
>Nu am urmarit evenimentele destul de qaprope ca sa-mi pot da seama
>care-i explicatia reala, insa cred ca buba e intre revolutionarii reali
>care au suferit, si cei care nu au suferit si reactia guvernului la
>"frecarea" celor doua grupuri invidioase si plingaretze.
>
al draku' onor'governu' cum isi alege 'mnealui la ce sa reactioneze...
tare'as vrea sa reactioneze la salariile profesorilor si medicilor care =
chitcaie pe drept de candu'i Romania noua...si nu la tot felu' de =
mascari pe care le rezolva tot de'andoaselea..
>>propunerea guvernului n'avea nimic progresiv in ea...
>
>Si cred ca asta-i adevarata problema...
>
si uite c'am putut ajunge la o concluzie utila
>>mai degraba propunerea guvernului arata ca sunt neinstare sa aplice o
>>lege cu grija....fapt care promite multe...
>
>Cam greu sa aplici drept o lege strimba, domnu'...
>
am zis asta pentru ca cei de la televiziune au filtrat drastic, cu legea =
asta, propunerile pentru certificate, s'au ajuns de la cateva sute de =
propuneri la cateva zeci de certificate....si tot ei ziceau ca legea e =
buna da' depinde de cei care'o aplica (ma rog, asta nu prea inseamna ca =
legea'i buna daca'i atat de ambigua'ncat sa lase loc de'ntors, da' =
atunci modificarile ar trebui sa se refere la caracteru' asta ambiguu si =
nu la recunoasterea morala sau materiala a celor vii si sanatosi)...
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
Dorin M. Petre (o...@nospam.interaccess.com) writes:
>"Romeo" <ro...@phys-iasi.ro> wrote:
>>
>>da pe mata nu s'a gasit nimea' sa te vindece inca?
>
>Ba da, Iliescu si ai lui, inca de prin anii 60! Ba c-un pumn in gura,
>ba cu saculetu' de nisip la rinichi, uite asa m'au vindecat baietii de
>ciuma rosie.
Ce ti-am zis Romica~, cronologic, tipul inca traieste undeva prin era
jurasica, hahaha... ;-)
>Tu esti baiat tanar, Romica, asa ca ai incredere in Dumnezeu si
>stiinta medicala si oi scapa si tu mai usor ca mine: fara sa mai treci
>prin fizioterapia lu' Ciomag!
Lasa mai pulache increderea in D-zeu, ca nu aia salveaza dinozauri ca tine!
Cu ea si fara cea medicala, mata ai fi istorie si la propiu, nu numa' la
figurat... ;-)
(The Jurassic Park attendant.) ;-)
Cristian Chelariu
romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) wrote:
:
: subjetu'i ca nu'i iau apararea lui Dan Iosif (seful de ... bla bla) ci a =
: revolutionarilor care inca traiesc...
Ceea ce consideri matale bla, bla e de fapt partea cea mai importanta.
: adevarul pe care'l vrei matale n'o sa'l afli niciodata...adevarul despre =
: revolutie e suficient de limpede ca sa nu justifice denumirea de =
: lovilutie... :(
Ei, vezi, ajungem la chestiuni fundamentale. Matale-i zici revolutie eu ii
zic lovilutie. Si ca sa incep dezbaterea pe tema asta din nou, ma prinde
amocul. Asa ca imi rezerv dreptul la replica peste citiva ani.
: >alte greseli. Da' totusi nu ei au chemat minerii la Bucuresti. =20
: nici ailalti nu i'au chemat, da iarasi nu asta'i subjetu'=20
Aici iar difera parerile noastre. Eu cred una, matale crezi alta, si din
nou mi-e lehamite sa mai discut. Partea mai trista e ca daca s-ar prezenta
un raport serios asupra mineriadelor (de fpat asta s-a si facut deja),
matale tot nu ai crede si ai veni cu tot felul de idei privind dosare
masluite si dovezi fabricate. Fiindca matale refuzi sa vezi evidenta.
: ce'ar fi daca m'as duce si io printr'o piata si sa strig jos Ciorbea sau =
: jos Constantinescu, pentru minciunile pe care le'mpusca? astept =
Pai nu te opreset nimeni sa-ti exerciti drepturile democratice.
: alegerile, pana atunci ii las sa'nvete ce'i aia guvernare, mi se pare =
: prostesc sa'i pisez io sau sa'i piseze opozitia cu mitinguri off track =
: cum erau cele din 91 - '93 pe tema anticomunismului :)
Un mting e un miting. N-a pisat nimeni pe nimeni, nici in 91-93, nici
acum.
: tema anticomunismului in Romania era irelevanta din start iar opozitia
: de atunci pedala pe asta pe plan intern
Imi aduc aminte ca in repetate rinduri vorbitorii de pe la mitinguri
atrageau atentia ca nu mai are rlevenat sa se strige Jos Comunismul ci mai
degraba Jos comunistii!. Comunismul e un fel de mafie ascunsa dupa un
paravan ideologic. Dupa 89, a cazut paravanul si a ramas mafia. Si pe
masura ce aceast proces a devenit mai clar, s-au schimbat si strigaturile
de la Jos comunismul! la Jos hotii!
: lipsa de experienta in ale guvernarii nu era suficienta in a'i acuza pe =
: cei din fosta putere la tot pasul de manareli diabolice...eu insumi nu'l =
: consideram pe Iliescu un tip care sa exceleze prin inteligenta, dar nici =
: nu asteptam asta de la el...asteptam sa se'nfiga bine democratia'n =
: Romania si asta s'a si intamplat...
Parerea mea este exact opusa. Nu de lipsa de inteligenta l-as acuza pe Ion
Iliescu, ca omu' prost nu e, e un politician versat ca o vulpe, il acuz
ca nu a inteles ca timpurle s-au schimbat. Iliescu putea fi un excelent
presedinte comunist, insa nu pute afi decit un jalnic presedinte democrat,
cum de altfel s-a so vazut. Daca democratia s-a impus in Romania, asta nu
a fost datorita lui, ci mai degraba in ciuda sa.
: am pus'o si eu in '90, am fost foarte atent 2 ani la ce s'a intamplat pe =
: scena politica romaneasca si mi'e suficient de clar...daca o dilema =
: dureaza prea mult e din vina observatorului...
Nu, e din vina celor care ascund adevarul.
: ti'am zis odata, da la matale e clar ca doar repetitia'i mama invatarii, =
: la mine credinta vine numai dupa intelegere...
Matale de fapt crezi ca ai inteles.
: >
: >Intrebarea mea este de ce tolereaza Iliescu personaje ca Bebe Ivanonici
: >linga el, daca e asa curat pe cit se pretinde. =20
:
: pentru ca nu'i treaba lui sa'i dovedeasca pe marlani...daca stie cineva =
: sa'i dovedeasca n'are decat s'o faca...fii sigur ca n'are sa se duca =
: Iliescu sa'l scoata din puscarie...
Bebe Ivanovici si altii ca el i-au adus servicii. Cum te numesti cind
acoperi un "mirlan" si te bucuri de avantajele pe care ti le ofera
"mirlaniile" lui? Cit despre chestia cu "nu-i treaba lui" asta e un
argument pe care l-am mai auzit de la matale. Cind e la o adica, luam
in brate argumentul cu limitele institutiei prezidentiale, trecind sub
tacere ca oamenii lui Iliescu erau peste tot, si in Politie si in
Procuratura.
: dom'le, un lucru e foarte clar pana acum, matale nu meriti nici sa'i =
: pupi in cur pe aia de fac greva acu'...
Daca matale socoti ca meriti, go on, whatever turns you on, n-am de gind
sa-ti iau placerea, sint fel de fel de oameni pe lumea asta si tre' sa fim
toleranti...
: reformulez:
: intinam demnitatea revolutiei prin acordarea de drepturi =
: revolutionarilor in viata, la fel cum matale'ti intinezi credinta =
: practicand sex la modul stramosesc....cu logica mea sucita bag sama ca =
: matale esti virgin...
Chiar si dupa reformulare ramin la parea ca paralela matale e cel putin
fortata si tre' sa-ti spun ca aluziile astea sexuale, dese si total
deplasate, ma fac sa cred ca ai putea avea o problema. Da' hai, ca sa ma
joc cu ideea matale, daca cineva e virgin si are sex la fel ca stramosii
sai, persoana respectiva nu s-ar fi nascut vreodata. Gineste logica matale
rationamentul asta?
: >Ai haz, nene! Si esti asa subtil...
: iarasi, ca sa fii subtil tre'sa ai cu cine...
: iar io imi pun un filtru pe mesajele matale, ca'mi pierd vremea'n van
Sa vedem. O incercare ieftine de salvare a fetei prin citeva procedee
simple:
1.evitarea substantierii parerilor ca sa nu dai ocazia adversarului sa iti
semnaleze pauzele in gindire pe care le faci
2. evitarea raspunsului la intrebarile si aluziile la care nu ai raspuns,
pur si simplu prin stergerea textului.
3.evitarea confruntarii de idei prin
a) replici ce se vor smechere (Ex: da' eu stiam ca CNN e in culori),
b) prin folosirea invectivei (prostane, pupat in cur, etc),
c) sau prin ideea (deasemenea nesubstantiata) ca adversarul nu ar fi
capabil sa iti inteleaga adincimea gindirii ("ca sa fii subtil tre' sa ai
cu cine)
4. evitarea totala a comunicarii prin folosirea filtrului. Daca nu ii vad
mesajele, inseamna ca ele nu exista. (Ciudata logica, dar de fapt ce ma
mai mir). In conditiile respective, cel care vorbeste singur esti matale.
Daca postezi pe un formum de dicutii, trebuie sa te astepti ca cineva o sa
iti ia ideile la forfecat. Asa, de dragul gimnasticii intelectuale.
Pe de alta parte, reactiile matale incep sa devina previzibile,
si in plus din cauza punctului 1 (see above), nu prea mai am de ce ma
agata, asa ca distractia este simtitor redusa. Asa ca te mai las in pace o
perioada si te astept sa mai vii cu niste perlute de alea de te furnica
degetele sa dai un raspuns. Si atunci o luam de la capat ;-)...
Noroc cumetre!
Cristache din Tatarasi
Cristian Chelariu
romeo (ro...@phys-iasi.ro) wrote:
: >But Romeo, from were would we then get material for our research of =
: human: >delusion, hahaha?
I could ask you what you understand by human delusion, but this would mean
to start everything all over again. And as far as research on the above
mentioned topic, take a goooood look in the mirror.
I mean, e una sa-i enjoy elucubratiile sub-mentale =
You may want to give some examples to substantiate your claims.
: >sa decizi sa-l lasi in plata Domnului pt a nu-ti mai pierde vremea in =
: mod inutil,
Evident, iti poti pierde vremea si in mod util...
...(crap deleted)...
: >Pina si papa Adolf a avut citeva fraze bune in tona sa de guano din =
: Mein : >Kampf, just think about it.
Asinus asinum fricat.
Cristache
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
Dartu Catalin (cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de) wrote:
>Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote:
>>
>> Lasa mai pulache increderea in D-zeu, ca nu aia salveaza dinozauri ca tine!
>> Cu ea si fara cea medicala, mata ai fi istorie si la propiu, nu numa' la
>> figurat... ;-)
>
>Chestia interesanta e ca dezvoltarea medicinei si in general
>creatia, este datorata celor care cred in Dumnezeu sau mai bine
>zis celor care au un Dumnezeu.
Bai Cataline,
vezi sa nu-i omori pe baietii de la IWR cu (pseudo-) logica ta mai baiatule,
mai...
Mai baga si tu ceva carte la chelie, mai tolomacule, ca esti scrintit rau
de tot. Stau si ma intreb cum de tin nemtii un prostoman ca tine p'acolo
prin Heidelberg, cica la Interdisziplinares Zentrum fuer
_Wissenschaftliches_ Rechnen... ati trecut cumva de la
interdisciplinaritati stiintifice, la interdisciplinalitati de tipul
stiinta--religie?! ;-) LOL
Ia zi mai, aveti vreun program de-a verifica calcularile lu' Usher pe Cray
1? LOL ;-)
And if we have to talk about the creations of the human mind, didn't you
know you poor sob that the greatest mind that walked on earth (Albert
Einstein) was an atheist, too?
And so were the greatest modern world shapers and social system creators:
the encyclopedists of the Enlightenment that shaped the French and American
Revolutions, Voltaire, Diderot, Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Adams, you
name it, mon bebe.
All the fucking religionist's manage to achieve is to spring from the earth
as fish, metamorphose into carnivores, and kill all what is beautiful,
sexual and sensual in humankind, as illustrated in one of Dali's paintings
below:
http://ftp.wustl.edu/multimedia/images/jpeg/d/dali-painting.jpg
Just imagine the development of the fine art of winery under Islamic law!!
Now that would make for a fine bottle of Dom Perignon, wouldn't it? ;-)
(Note: answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
(Atheist, and TOTALLY non-religious.) :)
Dartu Catalin
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote:
> Mai baga si tu ceva carte la chelie, mai tolomacule, ca esti scrintit rau
> de tot. Stau si ma intreb cum de tin nemtii un prostoman ca tine p'acolo
> prin Heidelberg, cica la Interdisziplinares Zentrum fuer
> _Wissenschaftliches_ Rechnen... ati trecut cumva de la
> interdisciplinaritati stiintifice, la interdisciplinalitati de tipul
> stiinta--religie?! ;-) LOL
au cap atat de incapator sa "bage" in el o viata intreaga.
Cat despre intrebarea care va framanta atata, va pot spune ca nu
e de competenta d-voastra.
> And if we have to talk about the creations of the human mind, didn't you
> know you poor sob that the greatest mind that walked on earth (Albert
> Einstein) was an atheist, too?
Asta numai Einstein poate sa stie, ce a spus bizonilor spre a rumega
este
una, insa un studiu mai atent al vietii lui Einstein demonstreaza
contrariul.
(Vezi "Viata asa cum o vad eu" de A. Einstein).
Dar sa lasam geniul cu viata lui pe care oricum n-avem cum s-o
intelegem.
> And so were the greatest modern world shapers and social system creators:
> the encyclopedists of the Enlightenment that shaped the French and American
> Revolutions, Voltaire, Diderot, Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Adams, you
> name it, mon bebe.
O lista frumoasa, dar cum am mai spus pacat ca nu putem sa vedem ce au
vazut ei.
Daca era si Dancs in lista mai era ceva.
> sexual and sensual in humankind, as illustrated in one of Dali's paintings
> below:
> http://ftp.wustl.edu/multimedia/images/jpeg/d/dali-painting.jpg
Se pare ca iar ati privit fara sa intelegeti.
Mai incercati, fiindca nici Dali nu a terminat o lucrare "dintr-o
privire".
Deci pictura are si un nume "Dream caused by the flight of a bee" ca sa
vedeti
ce ati inteles.
Am si eu o preferinta:
http://www.empower.net/dali/stjohn.html (acelasi Salvador Dali)
(tocmai este la Heidelberg expozitie DALI de pictura si sculptura. V-o
recomand)
Toate cele bune,
Catalin
JACK GOLD
In article <633qm0$imj$1...@learnet.freenet.hut.fi> sda...@mail.freenet.hut.fi (Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada) writes:
>
>Dartu Catalin (cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de) wrote:
>>Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote:
>>>
>>> Lasa mai pulache increderea in D-zeu, ca nu aia salveaza dinozauri ca tine!
>>> Cu ea si fara cea medicala, mata ai fi istorie si la propiu, nu numa' la
>>> figurat... ;-)
>>
>>Chestia interesanta e ca dezvoltarea medicinei si in general
>>creatia, este datorata celor care cred in Dumnezeu sau mai bine
>>zis celor care au un Dumnezeu.
>
>Bai Cataline,
>
>vezi sa nu-i omori pe baietii de la IWR cu (pseudo-) logica ta mai baiatule,
>mai...
>
>de tot. Stau si ma intreb cum de tin nemtii un prostoman ca tine p'acolo
>prin Heidelberg, cica la Interdisziplinares Zentrum fuer
>_Wissenschaftliches_ Rechnen... ati trecut cumva de la
>interdisciplinaritati stiintifice, la interdisciplinalitati de tipul
>stiinta--religie?! ;-) LOL
>
>1? LOL ;-)
>
>know you poor sob that the greatest mind that walked on earth (Albert
>Einstein) was an atheist, too?
>
>the encyclopedists of the Enlightenment that shaped the French and American
>Revolutions, Voltaire, Diderot, Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Adams, you
>name it, mon bebe.
>
>as fish, metamorphose into carnivores, and kill all what is beautiful,
>below:
> http://ftp.wustl.edu/multimedia/images/jpeg/d/dali-painting.jpg
>
>Now that would make for a fine bottle of Dom Perignon, wouldn't it? ;-)
>
>(Note: answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
>"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
>
>(Atheist, and TOTALLY non-religious.) :)
>--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
>Stephen Dancs Tel./Fax: +1 (416) 963-9624
>sda...@freenet.hut.fi http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bv561/
>--
>.
Ai o minte bolnava Stephen Dancs si iti reversi veninul si tampeniile
pe SCR. Nu te impiedica nimeni sa te masturbezi sau sa te futzi in cur,
dar ce cauti sa denigrezi cele sfinte?
Jack
oo...@mailexcite.com
In article <633qm0$imj$1...@learnet.freenet.hut.fi>,
> --*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
> Stephen Dancs Tel./Fax: +1 (416) 963-9624
> sda...@freenet.hut.fi http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bv561/
> --
.
Când te gândesti cum lepre ca astea 'scapă' din tară si după aceea mai au
si curajul să 'ne' reprezinte... deh, băiatul are computator, acces la
internet, să nu stea prostia-ntr-un loc, să vadă toti ce smecheri sunt
românii... Frumos măi băiete, am inteles aluzia, că nu esti crestin, dar
măcar nu mai face pe cretinul cu fraze ca 'f**king religionist', că nu
esti singur pe aici! Asa se vorbeste? Unde-ti sunt cei sapte ani de
stradă?
Oove.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Stephen Dancs
Dartu Catalin (cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de) writes:
> Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote:
>
> Carte mai avem de "bagat la chelie" cat o-m trai, chestia e ca nu toti
> au cap atat de incapator sa "bage" in el o viata intreaga.
Aha, so you stopped your moronic development by the age 11 and couldn't
outgrow religion so to speak! (Hehehe, sometimes it can bumerang...) ;-)
> Cat despre intrebarea care va framanta atata, va pot spune ca nu
> e de competenta d-voastra.
It doesn't bother me at all puiule, I just pitty the Germans and their
taxpayer DM. But I guess with such idiocies as Kirchensteuer still on the
books, they can afford to pay for another idiot...
>> And if we have to talk about the creations of the human mind, didn't you
>> know you poor sob that the greatest mind that walked on earth (Albert
>> Einstein) was an atheist, too?
>
> Asta numai Einstein poate sa stie, ce a spus bizonilor spre a rumega
> este una, insa un studiu mai atent al vietii lui Einstein demonstreaza
> contrariul. (Vezi "Viata asa cum o vad eu" de A. Einstein).
Ah, we read Einstein's "The World As I See It" and want to play Mr Big
Shot? No wonder that being the moron that you are (in a logical thinking
sense), that's how YOU understood it.
I would say that on the contrary, the "bizoni" (mastondonts??? hahaha)
that couldn't read between his "God" lines, are guys like you. ;-)
With this analYsis of the situation, you not only showed us your reading
between the lines "mental capacity", but also, your complete zero
knowledge of history and lack of common sense: it took great courage to
declare yourself an atheist on official papers (whose facsimile's I had
the priviledge to see here at the University of Toronto's physics library)
back in those times, w/o exposing oneself to dangers of being devoured by
the real mastondonts of those times, the denominations of all kind, so
forget about the business of him giving something to chew to your
_imagined_ mastondonts, stupid!
So not only do we have documents in which Einstein registered himself as
an atheist under the denomination category, but letters to his secretary
that atest to this very fact:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious
convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not
believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have
expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the
world so far as our science can reveal it."
[Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited
by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
As for your "deep" and in between the lines reading of his essay, "The
World As I See It", let me quote you from it:
"The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion.
Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom
this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and
lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is
impenatrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest
wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are
intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ...
that is the core of the true religious sentiment. In this sense, and
in this sense alone, I rank myself amoung profoundly religious men."
"The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is
the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true
science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer
marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the
experience of mystery -- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered
religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot
penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most
radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are
accessible to our minds: it is this knowledge and this emotion that
constitute true religiosity. In this sense, and only this sense, I am
a deeply religious man... I am satisfied with the mystery of life's
eternity and with a knowledge, a sense, of the marvelous structure of
existence -- as well as the humble attempt to understand even a tiny
portion of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."
Lack of time doesn't allow me a more complete answer, so I just hastily
can point those interested into more quotes to visit:
http://stripe.colorado.edu/~judy/einstein/einstein.html
http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay.htm
> Dar sa lasam geniul cu viata lui pe care oricum n-avem cum s-o
> intelegem.
Talk for yourself pal, if you are unable to understand, don't think that
others are in the same boat with you... ;-)
>> And so were the greatest modern world shapers and social system creators:
>> the encyclopedists of the Enlightenment that shaped the French and American
>> Revolutions, Voltaire, Diderot, Washington, Jefferson, Paine, Adams, you
>> name it, mon bebe.
>
> O lista frumoasa, dar cum am mai spus pacat ca nu putem sa vedem ce au
> vazut ei.
That's deep man, what can I say, keep up the good approach! ;-)
And if you can't see, maybe at least you make sure your fucking eyes are
open for Pete's sake! Maybe if you'd start following up some historical
silver lines, that might help for blind starters like you... ;-)
> Daca era si Dancs in lista mai era ceva.
You are getting deeper and deeper... we almost lost you into your
intellectuall abyss, man! LOL LOL ;-)
>> sexual and sensual in humankind, as illustrated in one of Dali's paintings
>> below:
>> http://ftp.wustl.edu/multimedia/images/jpeg/d/dali-painting.jpg
>
> Se pare ca iar ati privit fara sa intelegeti.
No kidding? Not only can't you read between the lines, you can't see
either! I guess there's a big difference between a privi/to look and a
vedea/to see that you only now come to terms with.
> Mai incercati, fiindca nici Dali nu a terminat o lucrare "dintr-o privire".
> Deci pictura are si un nume "Dream caused by the flight of a bee" ca sa
> vedeti ce ati inteles.
Still playing balena pe uscat/smartass, isn't it? If we are at it, the
complete title is "Dream caused by the flight of a bee around a
pommegranate a second before waking" (I couldn't "see" the ... at the end
of your "bee", is it because of the flecks in my eye? Hmm...), and of
course, the painting deals with the realm of dreams, Freud,
psychoanalysis, the second before awakening, etc., but that is the "thing"
with art, one can see many other meanings hidden deep inside it, that
sometimes can go way beyound what the artist initially wanted to suggest.
But I guess you are such an art connoisseur too, that the thought just
escaped your attention.
> Am si eu o preferinta:
> http://www.empower.net/dali/stjohn.html (acelasi Salvador Dali)
That's fine and good, but you still didn't tell us your interpretation of
it. Or you just wanted to remind me that Dali was a deeply religious man
(He was, so what? I mean, what da ya expect from someone that grew up in a
Catalan fucked up Catholic environment, lost his virginity at 28, etc.?),
and that was your proof for that and for proving my interpretation of the
"Dream..." painting to be false?
> (tocmai este la Heidelberg expozitie DALI de pictura si sculptura. V-o
> recomand)
I wasn't cunning enough to trick the Germans to finance my trip to
Heidelberg yet. I guess, I should try it again now, 'cause I see they
lowered their standards a lot since 1992! ;-)
(Note: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
(Un Chien Andalou.) ;-)
--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Stephen Dancs Tel./Fax: +1 (416) 963-9624
bv...@freenet.carleton.ca http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bv561/
Dartu Catalin
Stephen Dancs wrote:
>
> Dartu Catalin (cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de) writes:
> > Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote:
> >
> > Carte mai avem de "bagat la chelie" cat o-m trai, chestia e ca nu toti
> > au cap atat de incapator sa "bage" in el o viata intreaga.
>
> Aha, so you stopped your moronic development by the age 11 and couldn't
> outgrow religion so to speak! (Hehehe, sometimes it can bumerang...) ;-)
> http://stripe.colorado.edu/~judy/einstein/einstein.html
> http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay.htm
Noroc cu internetul ca ne ajuta sa devenim cunoscatori peste noapte.
E o metoda destul de ieftina de a ne da rotund cu ce au spus si realizat
altii, insa ar fi interesant de aflat ce aveti de spus d-voastra.
> either! I guess there's a big difference between a privi/to look and a
> vedea/to see that you only now come to terms with.
N-ati ghicit, diferenta esentiala este intre a privi si a pricepe.
> Still playing balena pe uscat/smartass, isn't it? If we are at it, the
> complete title is "Dream caused by the flight of a bee around a
> pommegranate a second before waking" (I couldn't "see" the ... at the end
> of your "bee", is it because of the flecks in my eye? Hmm...), and of
Correct, I was in hurry and I didn't had the time to SEARCH ON THE NET,
but
now we now both of us the full name. That's important.
> That's fine and good, but you still didn't tell us your interpretation of
> it. Or you just wanted to remind me that Dali was a deeply religious man
Nu ma prea pricep eu sa interpretez lucrurile insa unghiul sub care este
privit
cel crucificat mi se pare cel corect.
> (He was, so what? I mean, what da ya expect from someone that grew up in a
> Catalan fucked up Catholic environment, lost his virginity at 28, etc.?),
Ideea e ca nu e vorba de "someone" ci de Dali.
> I wasn't cunning enough to trick the Germans to finance my trip to
> Heidelberg yet. I guess, I should try it again now, 'cause I see they
> lowered their standards a lot since 1992! ;-)
Schade.
> (Un Chien Andalou.) ;-)
Ben oui, ca c'est bien vrai.
Toate cele bune,
Catalin
Cristian Chelariu
: > de tot. Stau si ma intreb cum de tin nemtii un prostoman ca tine p'acolo
Domnul Dancz reuseste performanta de a inghesui patru injurii in doua
rinduri, fara a mai pune la socoteala si subject line. Unii oameni nu pot
accepta in ruptul capului ca cineva poate avea o parere diferita de a lor
si asta nu este motiv sa-i faca albie de porci. Cu atit mai mult cu cit
problema in cauza a preocupat minti stralucite de-a lungul timpului si
nimeni nu a reusit sa-i gaseasca o rezolvare clara. Din punctul asta de
vedere, a eticheta pe orice credincios drept "moronic religionist" denota
superficialitate si suficienta intelectuala. Surprinzator din partea cuiva
care-si face stindard din stiinta.
: > interdisciplinaritati stiintifice, la interdisciplinalitati de tipul
: > stiinta--religie?! ;-) LOL
La baza convingerilor domnului Dancz pare sa se afle ideea naiva a
incompatibilitatii intre stiinta si religie, intens cultivata de
literatura de popularizare stiintifica marxista. Ideea denota naivitate
atit in abordarea fenomenului stiintific cit si a celui religios. Astfel,
adevarul stiintific este ridicat la rang de adevar absolut, trecindu-se cu
vederea perisabiliatea istorica a oricarei paradigme explicative, in timp
ce fenomenul religios este prezenata in mod naiv ca o "incercare a
oamenilor de a pune fenomenele naturii pe seama zeilor". Un fenomen
tulburator, care tine de sensurile adinci ale vietii nostre este
explicat, reductionist-naiv, prin incultura credinciosilor.
Fanaticii nu trebuie sa fie neaparat religiosi. Nu este nici o
diferenta intre mintea celui care a dat foc bibliotecii din Alexandria si
mintile celor care au distrus manastirile tibetane. Asa ca risul domnului
Dancz suna fals si gaunos.
: > And if we have to talk about the creations of the human mind, didn't you
: > know you poor sob that the greatest mind that walked on earth (Albert
: > Einstein) was an atheist, too?
" God doesn't play dice with the universe" (Albert Einstein in a
discussion on Heissman and Schrodinger' quantum mechanics). I can give you
some more nice quotes if you want.
: Asta numai Einstein poate sa stie, ce a spus bizonilor spre a rumega
: este una,
I just love this!!
: > Voltaire,
BTW, the guy, who was an outspoken atheist all his life, converted to
christianity right before he died. You may want to do the same. God is
forgiving.
Cristian Chelariu
PS. Dancz, asa de curiozitate, in afara de amorurile astea virtuale de pe
SCR cu tot felul de printese, tu ai pe cineva asa de adevaratelea, care sa
se lipeasca din cind in cind de tine, sa te ia in brate si sa-ti spuna la
ureche ca te iubeste? Poate asta ti-ar mai rezolva niste probleme...
Cristian Chelariu
...wishing everybody a scary and spooky Halloween!!!
C.
JACK GOLD
In article <63djhg$d...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Dancs) writes:
>
>gs1...@panther.gsu.edu (Cristian Chelariu) wrote:
>>
>>Domnul Dancz reuseste performanta de a inghesui patru injurii in doua
>>rinduri, fara a mai pune la socoteala si subject line. Unii oameni nu pot
>>accepta in ruptul capului ca cineva poate avea o parere diferita de a lor
>>si asta nu este motiv sa-i faca albie de porci.
>
>but being thickheaded, dumm, dumm-dumm... or how shall I say?!
>
>>Cu atit mai mult cu cit problema in cauza a preocupat minti stralucite
>>de-a lungul timpului si nimeni nu a reusit sa-i gaseasca o rezolvare
>>clara.
>
>
>>Din punctul asta de vedere, a eticheta pe orice credincios drept
>>"moronic religionist" denota superficialitate si suficienta intelectuala.
>>Surprinzator din partea cuiva care-si face stindard din stiinta.
>
>just what I said, a moron, a brain dead, a no-brainer, etc. No excuses
>for that, so I think that it is you that got a problem with me expressing
>honestly my opinion about religious people, and not me who accepts your
>right to be and remain a moron, hahaha...
>
>>La baza convingerilor domnului Dancz pare sa se afle ideea naiva a
>>incompatibilitatii intre stiinta si religie,
>
>morons haven't got to realise that yet... ;-)
>
>>intens cultivata de literatura de popularizare stiintifica marxista.
>
>that right wingers like you aren't to keen on marxists, but that doesn't
>mean that they couldn't be right though. It's the state of the matter
>that counts in the end, and not who's stating it.
>
>>Ideea denota naivitate atit in abordarea fenomenului stiintific cit si a
>>celui religios. Astfel, adevarul stiintific este ridicat la rang de
>>adevar absolut,
>
>truths... ;-)
>
>> trecindu-se cu vederea perisabiliatea istorica a oricarei paradigme
>> explicative,
>
>still haven't shown me a scientific theory that was created in the 20th
>century and was completely replaced by a new one which didn't contain the
>older one as a special case.
>
>> in timp ce fenomenul religios este prezenata in mod naiv ca o
>> "incercare a oamenilor de a pune fenomenele naturii pe seama zeilor".
>
>with the much later stage of religious development. Religion has much
>more to do with social control and with the awarness of humans re their
>self and death, than with trying to explain certain natural phenomena via
>gods and godesses...
>
>>Un fenomen tulburator, care tine de sensurile adinci ale vietii nostre
>>este explicat, reductionist-naiv, prin incultura credinciosilor.
>
>existence, so if you think that God or the Great Baker of Things gives a
>shit about Chelu's meaning (deep or not) of life or who the fuck shall
>win the next Superbowl game, you just delude yourself mon cher.
>
>>Fanaticii nu trebuie sa fie neaparat religiosi. Nu este nici o
>>diferenta intre mintea celui care a dat foc bibliotecii din Alexandria si
>>mintile celor care au distrus manastirile tibetane. Asa ca risul domnului
>>Dancz suna fals si gaunos.
>
>you expect me to go out and destroy your Bibles or by means of coecion
>to erase your delusions out of your head, you are in for a big surprise
>mon cher, you can have your religious delusions as long as you wish, and
>as long as you don't try to somehow boss me around because of them.
>
>But my "live and let live" approach, doesn't mean that I won't reserve
>myself the right to call all of you stupid idiots and morons! ;-)
>
>Which I think is much milder than what your friend George Bush would do
>with atheists, should he be able to have his way! ;-)
>
>>> And if we have to talk about the creations of the human mind, didn't you
>>> know you poor sob that the greatest mind that walked on earth (Albert
>>> Einstein) was an atheist, too?
>>
>> " God doesn't play dice with the universe" (Albert Einstein in a
>> discussion on Heissman and Schrodinger' quantum mechanics). I can give you
>> some more nice quotes if you want.
>
>figure of speech for nature, as he was very fond of Spinoza, and his
>pantheistic vision of God.
>
>And asides, you don't really believe that each time I use "Thank God!" or
>"Jesus!" I really mean the real thing, don't you?
>
>> : Asta numai Einstein poate sa stie, ce a spus bizonilor spre a rumega
>> : este una,
>>
>> I just love this!!
>
>
>Go read a book on Einstein man, and make no ass of yourslef. And when
>you've read a tenth of what I did, than start saying something...
>
>>: > Voltaire,
>>
>>BTW, the guy, who was an outspoken atheist all his life, converted to
>>christianity right before he died.
>
>
>When one contemplates nothingness, a lot's of uncontrolable things can
>happen and foggy his/her judgement. If you were dying and I'd be able to
>give you 1 day more to live if you'd just convert to Judaism, would be
>surprising that you'd do it?!
>
>Einstein too, after seeing the plight of the Jewish people started
>registering himself as Jewish where he previously was declaring himself
>as atheist, so as to gain a greater impact socially, and not make them
>think that somehow he betrayed them. Who knows which were Voltaire's
>reasons for doing the same (if he did convert to, that is; it all might
>come out to be just Chelu'-speak, hahaha...)?!
>
>>You may want to do the same. God is forgiving.
>
>stay a moron...
>
>>PS. Dancz, asa de curiozitate, in afara de amorurile astea virtuale de pe
>>SCR cu tot felul de printese, tu ai pe cineva asa de adevaratelea, care sa
>>se lipeasca din cind in cind de tine, sa te ia in brate si sa-ti spuna la
>>ureche ca te iubeste? Poate asta ti-ar mai rezolva niste probleme...
>
>someone telling you that s/he loves you, what can I say man, I really
>feel sorry for you.
>
>But for a foggy mind that believes that Voltaire's alleged conversion
>proves anything, I'm not surprised to see the same mind think that the
>state of being or not being in love with someone should have a bearance
>in such matters as religion, rational reasoning, and other "problems"...
>
>Slowly, slowly you'll start competing with the Moron of the SCR, aka
>Dragos Chirica's brilliant mathematical mind... LOL LOL LOL
>
>PS: as for matters "cu bulbuci la gura", try your good ol' friend George
> Bush, stupid! (Or even better, the Reagans.) ;-)
>
>(Thank God I'm an atheist!) ;-)---PENTRU CARE UMFLII BISTARII LUI
LUI SOROS BACS! =*=*=
>Stephen Dancs Tel./Fax: +1 (416) 963-9624
>bv...@freenet.carleton.ca http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bv561/
>.
Stephen Dancs
--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Stephen Dancs
Dartu Catalin <cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote:
>Stephen Dancs wrote:
>>
>> Aha, so you stopped your moronic development by the age 11 and couldn't
>> outgrow religion so to speak! (Hehehe, sometimes it can bumerang...) ;-)
>
> Sometimes yes, but not this time.
I'm affraid that yes, mon bebe, 'cause no intelligent guy past that age
living in 1997 can believe in religious nonsense w/o being
developmentally challenged... ;-)
>> http://stripe.colorado.edu/~judy/einstein/einstein.html
>> http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay.htm
>
>Noroc cu internetul ca ne ajuta sa devenim cunoscatori peste noapte.
>E o metoda destul de ieftina de a ne da rotund cu ce au spus si realizat
>altii, insa ar fi interesant de aflat ce aveti de spus d-voastra.
Mon bebe, by the time I was in Grade 10, I've rad ALL the books that were
published about Einstein, by E., or by E. & someone else, in Romania
until then, and I tried to do the same (with less success though, due to
their huge numbers, E. alone has published cca 278 scientific articles!!)
in Hungary, Germany and Canada, too. I don't think that I need the
Internet to teach me anything on this specific topic, it's just that a
lack of handy books combined with a laziness to type in detailed info for
the mentally handicaped, makes it much easier for me to make use of
others' typing efforts.
As for what I have to say, only a moron wouldn't have been able to have
seen (aka "princepe"/got it) what I had to say by now.
>> either! I guess there's a big difference between a privi/to look and a
>> vedea/to see that you only now come to terms with.
>
>N-ati ghicit, diferenta esentiala este intre a privi si a pricepe.
Man, you are really sphisticated... Sorry pal, but you are just too
fuckin' stupid, so I won't even bother explaing to you this subtility...
just not worth the effort... you are worst than Grade 5... :-(
>Correct, I was in hurry and I didn't had the time to SEARCH ON THE NET,
>but now we now both of us the full name. That's important.
Da Vinci, Bosch and Dali, were to much of my favorites way back in Grade
8-9 when I tried my own hand at sketches, painting, etc. for me to rely
on Internet searches for them. Next time maybe you'll think of the Univ.
of Toronto's Sig Sam librariy's art books collection... ;-)
>> That's fine and good, but you still didn't tell us your interpretation of
>> it. Or you just wanted to remind me that Dali was a deeply religious man
>
> Nu ma prea pricep eu sa interpretez lucrurile
No kidding?! Now isn't this a surprise... ;-)
> insa unghiul sub care este privit cel crucificat mi se pare cel corect.
By that meaning???
>> (He was, so what? I mean, what da ya expect from someone that grew up
>> in a Catalan fucked up Catholic environment, lost his virginity at 28,
>> etc.?),
>
> Ideea e ca nu e vorba de "someone" ci de Dali.
No, the idea was that everyone is the product of his/her times and
environment, and it's very difficult to surpass these two, even for guys
like Dali, 'cause you know, they are just human fuckers like you and me,
not some superhumans... ;-)
And btw, show me the Internet search that shows he lost his virginity at
age 28... ;-)
>> I wasn't cunning enough to trick the Germans to finance my trip to
>> Heidelberg yet. I guess, I should try it again now, 'cause I see they
>> lowered their standards a lot since 1992! ;-)
>
>Schade.
If you were referring to the lowering of the standards part, you hit the
nail right on its head! ;-)
>> (Un Chien Andalou.) ;-)
>
>Ben oui, ca c'est bien vrai.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that unless you'd recieve the "eye
treatment" depicted in the movie's first few seconds, it will be hard for
us to restart your blocked mental development... ;-)
As for moving in into the rest of the stuff with the repressed sexuality
and sensuality, forget it, there's just no bloody chance!! :-(
(Le Chien...)
Dartu Catalin
Stephen Dancs wrote:
> >Ideea denota naivitate atit in abordarea fenomenului stiintific cit si a
> >celui religios. Astfel, adevarul stiintific este ridicat la rang de
> >adevar absolut,
>
> False, the only absolute truth in science is that there are no absolute
> truths... ;-)
Daca aprofundam ideea ne dam seama ca exista adevarul relativ
si va las pe d-voastra sa ghiciti: relativ la CE?
> > trecindu-se cu vederea perisabiliatea istorica a oricarei paradigme
> > explicative,
>
> What you call "perisability" we call it growth, evolution, etc. And you
> still haven't shown me a scientific theory that was created in the 20th
> century and was completely replaced by a new one which didn't contain the
> older one as a special case.
Care "we"?
Aici e mica diferenta intre Modus Ponens si creatie.
Daca doriti un exemplu eu va sugerez Teorema lui Pythagora.
Pe mine ma framanta problemele mai "simple", nu am capacitatea de a
ma balacarii in "romane" de formule lipsite de idee.
Dar se pare ca in perioada cand trebuia sa simtiti problemele simple
aveati preocupari de nivel mult mai inalt.
> > in timp ce fenomenul religios este prezenata in mod naiv ca o
> > "incercare a oamenilor de a pune fenomenele naturii pe seama zeilor".
>
> You confuse the mythological level of development, a pre-religious state,
> with the much later stage of religious development. Religion has much
> more to do with social control and with the awarness of humans re their
> self and death, than with trying to explain certain natural phenomena via
> gods and godesses...
Iar mie mi se pare ca d-voastra confundati religia cu institutiile
religioase.
Religia trebuie sa caracterizeze individul, sa il defineasca.
> >Un fenomen tulburator, care tine de sensurile adinci ale vietii nostre
> >este explicat, reductionist-naiv, prin incultura credinciosilor.
>
> The whole point is that there isn't any sense really, in our meagre
> existence, so if you think that God or the Great Baker of Things gives a
> shit about Chelu's meaning (deep or not) of life or who the fuck shall
> win the next Superbowl game, you just delude yourself mon cher.
Pacat ca nu v-ati gasit inca rostul.
Eu gasesc ca este interesant sa-ti creezi propria "religie" si sa
descoperi mai apoi ca se aseamana in esenta cu aceea a marilor
creatori. Asta nu ma asigura ca voi ajunge vreodata sa creez ci
doar ca n-am gresit drumul inca.
Numai bine,
Catalin
Dartu Catalin
Stephen Dancs wrote:
>
> Dartu Catalin <cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote:
> >Stephen Dancs wrote:
> Mon bebe, by the time I was in Grade 10, I've rad ALL the books that were
> published about Einstein, by E., or by E. & someone else, in Romania
baza,
crearea unui fundament si nu sa cititi ce a inteles un om cu o gandire
de mult maturizata.
Deci si supraaprecierea poate avea consecinte nedorite.
Ca fapt divers, prin liceu eram si eu ateu convins dar viata mi-a
demonstrat cu rigurozitate contrariul. Dar e mult de atunci.
> Da Vinci, Bosch and Dali, were to much of my favorites way back in Grade
> 8-9 when I tried my own hand at sketches, painting, etc. for me to rely
The same problem.
> > insa unghiul sub care este privit cel crucificat mi se pare cel corect.
>
> By that meaning???
Acuma ce haz are o explicatie mura-n gura?
> And btw, show me the Internet search that shows he lost his virginity at
> age 28... ;-)
D-voastra ati spus-o si era un detaliu oricum nesemnifiativ pentru mine
deci
am retinut ideea contextului si a influentei asupra individului. Ceea ce
nu
este valabil pentru indivizi cerebrali, deci neinfluentabili.
Numai bine,
Catalin
Russell Dewhurst
bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Dancs) wrote:
> But I beg to differ mon cher, to me, anyone that believes in baloney, is
> just what I said, a moron, a brain dead, a no-brainer, etc.
I don't consider myself a moron or brain-dead, and yet I am a Christian,
and I believe in God, the Incarnation and all the rest of what you call
baloney. I was not a Christian until about 18 months ago, when I
converted, through a process of reasoning, reading and revelation.
And you can't tell me I know nothing about physics. I am a third-year
undergraduate physicist at Oxford University in England, and I'm not the
only physicist here who is a Christian: far from it. Last year I organised
a theology discussion group for the physicists in College, and all those
who came- Christians and atheists- were able to have many reasoned and
rational debates. The word "baloney" was not used once.
And if you think that as undergraduates we are in no position to speak,
then I can tell you about several discussion groups of Professors and
lecturers in the University composed of practising Christians and theists.
Why, even my own tutor attends the College chapel.
In fact, Mr Dancs, I think you are being very close-minded and insulting.
You misuse the knowledge of science to try and dazzle people into
believing whatever you say. No scientist, if he is honest, believes that
science can or does answer every question. True, many are atheists, but
the intelligent atheists are not as close-minded as you. And many, many of
the top scientists in the world are Christians, or members of another
religion. Do you call them brain-dead too?
yours,
Russell
--
------------------------ Russell Dewhurst Esq ------------------------
"A citizen of the universe and a gentleman to boot."
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~magd0226
Dartu Catalin
Russell Dewhurst wrote:
>
> No scientist, if he is honest, believes that
> science can or does answer every question. True, many are atheists, but
> the intelligent atheists are not as close-minded as you.
be an atheist and science can be developped only by this peoples.
All the best,
Catalin
Cristian Chelariu
: Stephen Dancs wrote:
: > What you call "perisability" we call it growth, evolution, etc. And you
: > still haven't shown me a scientific theory that was created in the 20th
: > century and was completely replaced by a new one which didn't contain the
: > older one as a special case.
Wow, finally some ideas!!! I first have to commend you for temporarily
giving up your cheap attempts to use bad langauage to intimidate your
opponents. After all, we agree on many things, such as on the dialectics
of the discovery process.
: > > in timp ce fenomenul religios este prezenata in mod naiv ca o
: > > "incercare a oamenilor de a pune fenomenele naturii pe seama zeilor".
: > You confuse the mythological level of development, a pre-religious state,
My point was to show you that contrasting scince and religion is
artificial and meaningles. I certainly agree with you, a scientific
explanation, even imperfect as it is, it's still better than mythological
explanations. To explain the "unexplained" in the physical world we have
to use science. Religious faith, on the hand, as you pointed out, has to
do with...
: > the awarness of humans re their self and death, than with trying to
: explain certain natural phenomena via gods and godesses...
So, if you agree on this, why do you keep contrasting science and
religion?
: > >Un fenomen tulburator, care tine de sensurile adinci ale vietii nostre
: > >este explicat, reductionist-naiv, prin incultura credinciosilor.
: >
: > The whole point is that there isn't any sense really, in our meagre
: > existence,
The whole point is that you've been wrong in calling the believers
"morons" and stupid simply because they believe, and in
contrasting them with the great atheist minds. Believe it or not ;-),
it doesn't have any relationship with the IQ.
As to the sense of our existence, sit down, relax a bit, breath, and think
for a second. You might agree that there may be a remote
posibility that our existence actually does have a sense but you just
haven't found it yet. And again, that doens't have anything to do with
your atheist IQ...
Cheers,
Cristian Chelariu
Cosmin Corbea
Cristian Chelariu <gs1...@panther.gsu.edu> wrote in article
<63ab5i$6ut$1...@arachnid.Gsu.EDU>...
[..]
>
> La baza convingerilor domnului Dancz pare sa se afle ideea naiva a
> incompatibilitatii intre stiinta si religie, intens cultivata de
> literatura de popularizare stiintifica marxista. Ideea denota naivitate
> atit in abordarea fenomenului stiintific cit si a celui religios. Astfel,
> adevarul stiintific este ridicat la rang de adevar absolut, trecindu-se
cu
> vederea perisabiliatea istorica a oricarei paradigme explicative, in timp
> ce fenomenul religios este prezenata in mod naiv ca o "incercare a
> oamenilor de a pune fenomenele naturii pe seama zeilor". Un fenomen
> tulburator, care tine de sensurile adinci ale vietii nostre este
> explicat, reductionist-naiv, prin incultura credinciosilor.
In lumina paragrafului anterior, e amuzant faptul ca ambele referinte
istorice ale
d-lui Chelariu sint complet eronate...
[...]
>
> " God doesn't play dice with the universe" (Albert Einstein in a
> discussion on Heissman and Schrodinger' quantum mechanics). I can give
you
> some more nice quotes if you want.
>
[Switch to English, following quoted post]
Your argumentation is incorrect; it is actually one of the "frequently used
fallacies" used by religious people to defend their point of view. There
are two reasons why it's wrong:
1) It's an appeal to authority; even if Einstein had been a believer, that
does not prove in any way the existence of God.
2) It's factually wrong - the famous quote is taken out of context.
A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the
following:
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony
of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings."
Einstein has also said:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions,
a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a
personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If
something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded
admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal
it.
The above quote is from a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March
1954. It is included in "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen
Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, and published by Princeton University Press. Also
from the same book:
I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it.
More of Einstein's comments on religion are available on the web at
http://www.stcloud.msus.edu/~lesikar/ESR.html
Of course, the fact that Einstein chose not to believe in Christianity does
not in itself imply that Christianity is false.
[...]
> : > Voltaire,
>
> BTW, the guy, who was an outspoken atheist all his life, converted to
> christianity right before he died.
Again a multiple falsehood. First, Voltaire was not a "real" atheist. His
writings mainly attacked the Church, not so much the idea of God.
Here is a quote from the article "Champion of Liberty and Human Intellect",
by Bolder Landry (in the special issue dedicated to Voltaire of "The Truth
Seeker" - available on the net at
http://www2.freethought.com/ft/ftpubs/ts/121_4/ts214f.html
- begin quote
As for Voltaire's religious ideas, the reader must be reminded that his was
the age of enlightenment. He was educated by the Jesuits, and of his
earlier education Voltaire says that he "learnt little besides Latin and
nonsense." Voltaire believed in some sort of personal God, though limited
in power and knowledge. In reality, it was the age of Deism. The terrible
earthquake of 1755 in Lisbon disturbed Voltaire's belief in God as a moral
ruler of the universe. He was a Deist, but his God, though infinite, did
not create the universe and he ridiculed the idea of immortality of the
soul.
A few words about the end of Voltaire's life are in order. Voltaire was
unconscious during his last few days of life. Moments before his death,
priests tried to extract a last-minute confession from him to which he
said: "Let me die in peace." One priest said he was sent by God and
Voltaire said to him, "Show me your credentials." He refused communion.
The great infidel, Voltaire, closed his eyes for the last time in 1778, two
years after the American Revolution had begun.
Voltaire's body was clothed and transported by his nephew to the Abbé of
Scellieres; the prohibition of such burial arrived too late; he was given a
Christian burial. Some eleven years later, on July 10,1791, two years after
the French Revolution began with the storming of the Bastille, the bones of
Voltaire were transferred to the Pantheon with great honor. The funeral car
had the inscription: "He gave the human mind a great impetus; he prepared
us for freedom."
- end quote
> You may want to do the same. God is
> forgiving.
>
You may find more religious fallacies in the alt atheism FAQ, at
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/
--
Regards,
Cosmin Corbea
*** To e-mail, please remove nspam. from my address
Dartu Catalin
Cosmin Corbea wrote:
> "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony
> of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
> human beings."
>
> Einstein has also said: [...]
Asta-i nenorocirea limbajului pentru o inteligenta fina, e imposibila
"implementarea" fidela a ideilor. O solutie ar fi utilizarea
"pildelor".
Daca tot ne ridicaram la nivelul lui Einstein, (ca vorba aia
pe umerii cui ne-am ridica altfel) parerea mea e ca Einstein
incearca sa explice inconsistenta clasificarii pe diferite
criterii a ESENTEI.
Daca explicam prea detaliat devenim ridicoli.
> More of Einstein's comments on religion are available on the web at
>
> http://www.stcloud.msus.edu/~lesikar/ESR.html
> http://www2.freethought.com/ft/ftpubs/ts/121_4/ts214f.html
>
> - begin quote
Cum i-am mai povestit si domnului Dancs, metoda asta cu
trimitere la bibliografie si bombardarea cu citate,
demonstreaza un frumos "dans tematic" dar fara tema precizata.
Numai bine,
Catalin
Cristian Chelariu
Cosmin Corbea (cos...@nspam.axionet.com) wrote:
:
: Your argumentation is incorrect; it is actually one of the "frequently used
: fallacies" used by religious people to defend their point of view. There
: are two reasons why it's wrong:
:
: 1) It's an appeal to authority; even if Einstein had been a believer, that
: does not prove in any way the existence of God.
My point was not to prove the existence of God, using the fact that
Einstein was a believer (sort of funny, as an idea...). In fact, I don't
even know for sure if he was or not believer. And to be honest, I don't
really care that much, aside from a simple curiosity. I think that
believing or not is a result of a set of personal experiences and that the
existence or inexistence of God cannot be proven objectively.
Dancz brought up Einstein's name, precisely as an "appeal to
authority" and he stated that Einstein was not a believer. So I just throw
in a quote that I remembered, just as a hint that Einstein's religious
opinions deserved at least a more elaborate discussion. In this respect, I
truly appreciate your efforts to bring in some clarifications.
: A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the
: following:
: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony
: of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
: human beings."
Now, this can be interpreted in mnay ways and God knows ;-), what
interpretation is the right one. Someone may think for instance that the
understanding of the order of the universe had the function of a divine
revelation for Einstein. As to the "fates and actions of human beings".,
a believer may agree with this too if he/she believes in the doctrine of
the free will.
: Of course, the fact that Einstein chose not to believe in Christianity does
: not in itself imply that Christianity is false.
I fully agree with you.
: > : > Voltaire,
: > BTW, the guy, who was an outspoken atheist all his life, converted to
: > christianity right before he died.
: Again a multiple falsehood. First, Voltaire was not a "real" atheist. His
: writings mainly attacked the Church, not so much the idea of God.
: Here is a quote from the article "Champion of Liberty and Human Intellect",
: by Bolder Landry (in the special issue dedicated to Voltaire of "The Truth
: Seeker" - available on the net at
: http://www2.freethought.com/ft/ftpubs/ts/121_4/ts214f.html
I am pretty sure about the fact that Voltaire repented before he died, but
I cannot point to a source right now. I'm not sure how reliable your
sources are either. So you may be right and I may be wrong.
: Voltaire believed in some sort of personal God, though limited
: in power and knowledge.
That's sort of a contradiction in terms, isn't it?
: You may find more religious fallacies in the alt atheism FAQ, at
: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/
I think everybody is entitled to his/her own opinions on God and I think
nobody should make value judgments based on this. Atheism bothers me only
to the extent that it is primitive, like Dancz's attempts to show that
believers are all stupid simply because they believe (that's why the
title). On the other hand, I really enjoy a well written posting, where
the author uses decent language, brings evidence and points to sources,
even if the ideas are against mine. I learn something, and that is good.
Regards,
Cristian Chelariu
Stephen Dancs
Dartu Catalin (cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de)
>
>Cartile au fost scrise, in primul rand, pentru oameni care stiu sa
>scrie carti si nu pentru cei care stiu sa citeasca.
With such pearls of "wisdom" coming from you, I start feeling that
by calling you a moron was a sort of compliment. ;-)
>> When one contemplates nothingness, a lot's of uncontrolable things can
>> happen and foggy his/her judgement. If you were dying and I'd be able to
>> give you 1 day more to live if you'd just convert to Judaism, would be
>> surprising that you'd do it?!
>
>Imi pare rau dar asta e cel mai mare nonsens pe care l-am citit, deci
>sunt foarte "surprins".
Well, I guess, there's only one way for guys as stupid as you to find the
sense in the above "nonsense", and when that hapens, remember Richard
III's "A horse, a horse! my kingdom for a horse..." ;-)
PS: Heidelberg, Heidelberg, how did you let in such a fuckin' moron?
(Bounty Hunter.)
Stephen Dancs
Dartu Catalin <cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de>
And after such a statement, you still want to claim that you aren't a
moron?
Not only that the statement per se is moronic, but you said it for the
second time, so as to show Russell, how open minded a religious moron can
be, and how much you've learned from this recent thread. ;-)
And you bullshited (as if they wern't already BSed enough ;-) ) Chelu's
brains during the process too, the poor sucker already forgot that I just
gave you Einstein's example as an atheist _creator_, and not to appeal to
his authority to prove the inexistance of Goddamit...
Hey Russell, here's Dartu and Chelu'... your kinda people... ;-) LOL LOL
LOL...
You three should get together for a Bible study session /spiritual
discussion and play "Hora Unirii", hahaha... ;-)
(Note: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
(The pain in the ass getting bigger.) ;-)
Radu
Cristian Chelariu wrote:
> The whole point is that you've been wrong in calling the believers
> "morons" and stupid simply because they believe, and in
> contrasting them with the great atheist minds. Believe it or not ;-),
> it doesn't have any relationship with the IQ.
Oh well, I may have to side with Stephen here. There are believeres and
believers.
Kirkegaard and Dostoyevski are one kind. Bible thumpers are another;
more often than not they do gloriously qualify for the "moron " title.
It does have a relationship with the IQ. You can not, one one hand,
design space shuttles and on the other hand deny you child a life-saving
blood tranfusion on religious grounds.
> As to the sense of our existence, sit down, relax a bit, breath, and
> think
> for a second. You might agree that there may be a remote
> posibility that our existence actually does have a sense but you just
> haven't found it yet. And again, that doens't have anything to do with
>
> your atheist IQ...
This is a little bit facetious. You seem to imply that finding the
"sense of our existence" (mot-a-mot translation from Romanian?) is
actually finding god.This is of course meaningless and patronizing.
Technically speaking, there is no god, safe of in the believer' s mind.
Your assertion that Stepehn has not found
the "sense of existence"/god yet is equally alarming, since, again,
there is no such
thing as god.
Most of religious people are just mildly fanatic about their beliefs.
After all,
religion is just organized delusion. Now, if some people need it to make
sense of this thing we call reality, it is entirely their right to be
religious.
Let's make sure that we do not portray the religious discourse as an
"alternative' to hard core science.
Cheers!
Cosmin Corbea
On Sun, 02 Nov 1997 11:08:55 +0100, Dartu Catalin
<cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in soc.culture.romanian:
>Cosmin Corbea wrote:
>
[...]
>> Einstein has also said: [...]
>Asta-i nenorocirea limbajului pentru o inteligenta fina, e imposibila
>"implementarea" fidela a ideilor. O solutie ar fi utilizarea
>"pildelor".
"Chose bien concue s'enonce aisement" (Boileau). Dificultatea de a
exprima o idee este cel mai frecvent un semn ca ideea respectiva nu
este clara celui care incearca sa o exprime. Utilizarea parabolelor
sau pildelor are ca efect aparitia unor interpretari diverse,
frecvent contradictorii atit intre ele cit, uneori, chiar cu intentia
autorului pildei. De aceea asemenea figuri de stil sint utile in arta
sau religie dar nu si atunci cind se incearca comunicarea unor idei
sau notiuni exacte.
> Daca tot ne ridicaram la nivelul lui Einstein, (ca vorba aia
>pe umerii cui ne-am ridica altfel) parerea mea e ca Einstein
>incearca sa explice inconsistenta clasificarii pe diferite
>criterii a ESENTEI.
???? Citatele pe care le-am postat nu justifica aceasta interpretare.
La ce va referiti?
>Daca explicam prea detaliat devenim ridicoli.
>
LOL
[...]
>Cum i-am mai povestit si domnului Dancs, metoda asta cu
>trimitere la bibliografie si bombardarea cu citate,
>demonstreaza un frumos "dans tematic" dar fara tema precizata.
>
Trimiterea la bibliografie este o metoda frecvent utilizata. Scopul
este transmiterea de cunostinte sau argumente catre partenerul de
discutie fara a repeta lucruri deja existente in alta parte. Tema a
fost clar precizata: corectarea erorilor din mesajul postat de dl
Chelariu.
Dartu Catalin
Stephen Dancs wrote:
> Chelule, not only are you stupid, but have probles with your memory span,
> too. It was your moronic friend Dartu, that initially stated that ONLY
> people with belief in God can be creators and advance humanity, to which
Ingust cat o p..da de furnica.
Hai sa mai incercam odata.
Ca sa poti crea trebuie sa intelegi sau cel putin sa simti esenta.
Deci "can" este in sensul de "putinta" nu de "permisiune".
> Every intelligent person past age 11 and with a clue about life in
> general, and science in particular, knows that there's no such thing as
> AUTHORITY in science!! Every sucker can come up with a theory that
> contradicts that of Einstein, and as long as he can prove his case,
> Einstein will be dumped in a minute! That's how science works!
No kidding.
Incepeti sa deraiati rau de tot.
Asa functioneaza stiinta in cerebelul d-voastra dupa Big Bang.
Chiar ati ramas la varsta la care mai credeti in minuni de genul
"Every sucker"?
> If someone would start up a movement/phylosophy/religion??? called
> Einsteinism, I'd be the first to ridicule it
Pai chiar nu stiu cine va angaja specialisti in ridiculizare...
Cred ca trebuie sa ve specializati in lucruri mai serioase.
> >: A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the
> >: following:
> >: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly
> >: harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates
> >: and actions of : human beings."
>
> That's the quote that I was actually looking for, although Einstien wrote
> about Spinoza and his influence on him much, much more. Lack of time made
> me to just put in quotes from the AIP and PBS Online sites that I
> frequent more often due to other non Einstein related interests.
Vedeti ce am raspuns la Cosmin...
Acelasi citat aceeasi eroare de interpretare.
> Reminds me again of the many efforts of the Church to
> reinterpret things all over again when science slowly contradicts their
> dogmas. ;-)
In clasa a 3-a ziceam si eu acelasi lucru.
"Dumnezeu nu e in cer deoarece oamenii au ajuns pe Luna..." simpatic
> Learning implies remembering. How can you learn when you don't remember
> thoughts expressed 2-3 days ago (--> see your false claims about the
> motives of my bringing Einstein into this discussion). ;-)
Doar invatand, deveniti un consumator, incercati sa fiti si
producator.
Numai bine,
Catalin
Cosmin Corbea
Cristian Chelariu <gs1...@panther.gsu.edu> wrote in article
<63icuc$dba$1...@arachnid.Gsu.EDU>...
> Cosmin Corbea (cos...@nspam.axionet.com) wrote:
[...]
> : Voltaire believed in some sort of personal God, though limited
> : in power and knowledge.
> That's sort of a contradiction in terms, isn't it?
Not really; many religions do not have omnipotent and omniscient gods.
AFAIK (and I'm not a student of religion) only some monotheistic religions
(mainly Mozaism, Christianity and Islam) assign those properties to their
gods. The gods of most of the other religions are presented as imperfect -
which, IMHO, makes the religious legends of those folks much more
esthetically pleasing.
[...]
> I think everybody is entitled to his/her own opinions on God and I think
> nobody should make value judgments based on this.
>Atheism bothers me only to the extent that it is primitive
So you do not make value judgements, but atheism is primitive? ;)
[...]
--
Dustin C. Iura
si lu mata la fel de multa muie ca si tie
Stephen Dancs
Andreas Somogyi (Andreas...@USA.Net) writes:
>bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Dancs) wrote:
>>
>>>And many, many of the top scientists in the world are Christians, or
>>>members of another religion. Do you call them brain-dead too?
>>
>>If they believe in God, yes, they are as brain dead as a stone (and by
>>that I don't mean the phylosophers' stone ;-) ).
>
> Do you mean if they believe in the Christian god, "God", or if they
> believe in a god like (my own definition here-) a force that created
> the universe ?
>
> If you mean that they are stoopid if they are Christians, I totally
> agree with you, Stephen. If you mean the second I don´t.
Everyone past age 11 (in 1997) who believes in any kind of God or supernatural
phenomena is a no-brainer. Was I clear enough this time?
(Note: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
(The Tough One.) ;-)
oo...@mailexcite.com
Stephen Dancs wrote in message <63r4e3$9...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
....wow, esti tare inteligent bãi fatzã palidã! Da de unde vii tu mãi
Stephutule? Dar mai ales, unde vrei sã ajungi??? Te pomenesti cã esti
vreun urmas a lu' Einstein, sau cel putin asa crezi tu. Te rog,
dovedeste-mi si mie aceastã 'lege' a ta "Everyone past age 11 (in 1997)
who believes in any kind of God or supernatural phenomena is a
no-brainer", sunt curios pe ce este bazatã aceastã idee a ta.
Dartu Catalin
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote:
> To be creative one needs only talent/genius (to start with) and hard work
> in a favorable environment (to prevent losing and to develop it). No
> special "phone" line to God is needed.
:)))
A favorable environment can be the tropical forest. :))
Cam multe "ingrediente" nu simtiti?
Probabil le-ati pus toate de-a valma ca sa fiti sigur de reusita
creatiei. :)))
Incercati o factorizare si problema devine mai simpla.
> No kidding at all mon cher, actually that's why I pittied the poor Germans
> for spending their tax DMs
Ce probleme marete va preocupa, care nu au nici o legatura
cu discutia si nici macar de competenta d-voastra, cum am mai spus.
> >Asa functioneaza stiinta in cerebelul d-voastra dupa Big Bang.
> Aiaiai, if you by now weren't convinced that the Big Bang happened, you
> must be a really dummy ass...
Pai tocmai domnule Dancs, sunt foarte convins, sunt chiar
convins de un Big Bang nereusit si in cerebelul d-voastra.
> >Chiar ati ramas la varsta la care mai credeti in minuni de genul
> >"Every sucker"?
> I guess the allegory of the fool teling that the emperor has no clothes
> throughout the history got lost somewhere in your organs of reasoning: your
> intestines... ;-)
In mintea d-voastra, ordonata in dezordine, care-i "the fool" si
care-i "the emperor"? :))
Poate realizati totusi cu ce argumente inconsistente va prezentati
pe SCR.
> >> If someone would start up a movement/phylosophy/religion??? called
> >> Einsteinism, I'd be the first to ridicule it
> >
> >Pai chiar nu stiu cine va angaja specialisti in ridiculizare...
> >Cred ca trebuie sa ve specializati in lucruri mai serioase.
>
> No wonder that a moron like you, it was all that he could understand from
> what the I was actually saying. You are beyond any hope mon cher, so you
> better go and hang yourself: life must be tough on morons like you...
:-0
fara cuvinte...
> >Vedeti ce am raspuns la Cosmin...
> >Acelasi citat aceeasi eroare de interpretare.
>
> Nebunule, when two people tell you that you are drunk, go get a sleep. You
> haven't got a rat's ass' clue of what you are saying, moron!
Chestia era cu trei, deci trebuia sa fiti in pat demult.
> >> Reminds me again of the many efforts of the Church to
> >> reinterpret things all over again when science slowly contradicts their
> >> dogmas. ;-)
> >
> >In clasa a 3-a ziceam si eu acelasi lucru.
> >"Dumnezeu nu e in cer deoarece oamenii au ajuns pe Luna..." simpatic
>
> Hahaha, what is truly sympathetic is that your God is always in some
> "unaccessible place", hahaha... ;-)
Ati ghicit.
> Let's have some fun with
[...]
Da' se pare ca n-ati stat degeaba.
Incep sa iau si eu "Boala Citatelor Nebune".
Parafrazandu-l pe Exupery, greseala matematicienilor e aceea de
a considera intregul ca suma a componentelor sale. Analiza
componentelor nu ne va furniza niciodata o corecta caracterizare
a intregului.
Stiinta foloseste axiome, incercand astfel sa se protejeze
impotriva intangibilitatii imediate a esentei, se produce
astfel o fragmentare a unitatii si mai ales
o pierdere a controlului asupra fortelor ce leaga
entitatile.
> >> Learning implies remembering. How can you learn when you don't remember
> >> thoughts expressed 2-3 days ago (--> see your false claims about the
> >> motives of my bringing Einstein into this discussion). ;-)
> >
> >Doar invatand, deveniti un consumator, incercati sa fiti si producator.
>
> Hey listen, there's a moment in your life when you come to realise that you
> just haven't got it, and basta!
Bun, posibil si asa ceva , insa cum ati spus "a hard work" sau
lupta, nu ne opreste nimeni sa o continuam.
Posibil sa nu fie victorie, dar nici infrangere nu va fi cat
timp vei lupta.
> When that happens, all you can do is just
> learn and critically analyse, unless of course, you're stubborn and want to
> create with any price, even that of creating yourself over into a mental
> delusion! ;-)
Dorinta de a crea cu orice pret poate genera deziluzie, dar dorinta
de a lupta nu poate aduce decat satisfactii.
Daca insa iti alegi alt scop in viata decat lupta, te expui
implicit pericolului esecului.
"O lupta-i viata deci te lupta,
Cu dragoste de ea, cu dor."
Numai bine,
Catalin
DINU811
Stefi nu strica orzul pe Oove.
La Craiova tot ce zboara se maninca dupa cum spunei proverbul: "Pasarea Mihai
Viteazu"
Stephen Dancs
Dartu Catalin (cat...@thymian.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de) writes:
> Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada wrote:
>>
>> To be creative one needs only talent/genius (to start with) and hard work
>> in a favorable environment (to prevent losing and to develop it). No
>> special "phone" line to God is needed.
>
> :)))
> A favorable environment can be the tropical forest. :))
Right! Just imagine Einstein's chances to shit out his theory of
relativity while most of the time preocupied with the harvest of bananas!
Or if he'd been born in the slums of Bombay, India, rickshawing 25 hours a
day in a very "physicSall" environment... ;-)
> Cam multe "ingrediente" nu simtiti?
> Probabil le-ati pus toate de-a valma ca sa fiti sigur de reusita
> creatiei. :)))
> Incercati o factorizare si problema devine mai simpla.
Talent: if you think that hard work alone will make you compose like Bach,
play the violin like Paganini, or paint like DaVinci, you must be deluding
yourself.
Hard Work: if you happened to "have the thing", but you don't use and
develop it, it will die out. Edison: "Creation is 2% genius, 98%
perspiration".
If you still didn't get this basic inborn talent--hard work--favorable
environment thing, you just confirm again (as if it were necessary once
more) what a big no-brainer you are.
A true joke of nature indeed, just _unbelievably_ stupid... so I guess
I'll just rest my case again. To spend more time disecating your nonsense
would be wasteful.
(Note: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
(The Fool following the fool.)
--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Stephen Dancs
DINU811 (din...@aol.com) writes:
>
> Stefi nu strica orzul pe Oove.
Ma, da nu ma speria chiar asa de rau mai Dinule mai... Cind te-am auzit pe
talica strigind dupa mine Stefi, una doua a trebuit sa fac un control
existentzial la coaie... ;-) LOL LOL
Joke: what's the difference between a pussy and a cunt?
The pussy is that nice thing women have between their legs. A cunt, is
what is attached to a pussy. ;-) LOL LOL
> La Craiova tot ce zboara se maninca dupa cum spunei proverbul: "Pasarea Mihai
> Viteazu"
Mda, I guess nu degeaba se numeau "cei de la Electrputoare Craiova"...
(Note: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
(Ed Munch Jr.) ;-)
DINU811
>Cind te-am auzit pe talica strigind dupa mine Stefi, una doua a trebuit sa fac
un control existentzial la coaie... ;-) LOL LOL
Deci Nea Corean are dreptate ca outele tale sunt numai de decor!
Daca nu le-ai folosit s-au atrofiat. Deci are dreptate Acic0ne, mai bine gumi
decit atrofie!
Ferenc Szita
Hey Stephen, take it for what you want:
One man's thrash is another man's treasure!
bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Dancs) wrote:
>Joke: what's the difference between a pussy and a cunt?
>The pussy is that nice thing women have between their legs.
>A cunt, is what is attached to a pussy. ;-) LOL LOL
Frank
f_s...@pipeline.com
TEL: 1-504-467-1717
FAX: 1-504-468-1102
To reply, remove _
Stephen Dancs
DINU811 (din...@aol.com) writes:
>
> Deci Nea Corean are dreptate ca outele tale sunt numai de decor!
Pai ce altceva e omul daca nu un fel de decor portabil al penisului? Just
ask the grrls... ;-)
> Daca nu le-ai folosit s-au atrofiat. Deci are dreptate Acic0ne, mai
> bine gumi decit atrofie!
Not if you've met already Connie Lingus at
(Pussy Tom...cUt!) ;-)
JACK GOLD
In article <640pi8$j60$1...@newsd-112.bryant.webtv.net> orio...@webtv.net (Bogdan Avrigeanu) writes:
>all religions boil down to this: I believe therefore it exists
INEXACT:
I believe, therefore I am able to understand!
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>.
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
Fa_szIta (fsz...@pipeline.com) says:
>
>Hey Stephen, take it for what you want:
>One man's thrash is another man's treasure!
Oh yeah?! Which woman's trash are you? ;-)
(Note: answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
(The Phylosopher Ape.) ;-) LOL
--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs Tel./Fax: +1 (416) 963-9624
Ferenc Szita
sda...@mail.freenet.hut.fi (Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada) wrote:
f_szIta (fsz...@pipeline.com) says:
>>Hey Stephen, take it for what you want:
>>One man's thrash is another man's treasure!
>Oh yeah?! Which woman's trash are you? ;-)
I guess you need to be told the meaning of my posting:
while some people think you post thrash, I enjoyed the
one I was replying to (not necessarily all others, though
they ccasionally do make me smile)
.
I thought your quick mind was quick enough...
Sorry for giving too much credit where that
much credit wasn't due.
Do I need to expand on this one as well??
Radu
JACK GOLD wrote:
My two pence:
"Since I believe, why not also believe I understand?"
"True, I do not understand, but at least I got something to believe!"
JACK GOLD
our ignorance. In order to move beyond the limits of our human knowledge
it is necessary to believe in a divine wisdom which can be revelated
to those with a pure heart.
Jack
>.
>.
JACK GOLD
In article <64aug3$5iv$1...@learnet.freenet.hut.fi> sda...@mail.freenet.hut.fi (Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada) writes:
>
>In a previous article, INJ...@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (JACK GOLD) says:
>>orio...@webtv.net (Bogdan Avrigeanu) writes:
>>>
>>>all religions boil down to this: I believe therefore it exists
>
>themselves have the "many people believe/they/he/she believe(s), therefore
>it must be true" approach. ;-)
>
>>INEXACT: I believe, therefore I am able to understand!
>
>threfore I'm a moron" is much more appropiate. ;-)
>
>(Note: answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
>"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
>
>--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
>Stephen Dancs Tel./Fax: +1 (416) 963-9624
>sda...@freenet.hut.fi http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bv561/
>--
Te bagasi ca musca-n curul calului. Raspunsul meu nu era pentru porci.
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
In a previous article, INJ...@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (JACK GOLD) says:
>orio...@webtv.net (Bogdan Avrigeanu) writes:
>>
>>all religions boil down to this: I believe therefore it exists
That's to egocentric; most of the morons with no brains to think for
themselves have the "many people believe/they/he/she believe(s), therefore
it must be true" approach. ;-)
>INEXACT: I believe, therefore I am able to understand!
Another oxymoron de la Jack cetire. For guys like you Jack, "I believe
threfore I'm a moron" is much more appropiate. ;-)
(BhagavasIn-gitA.)
--
Stephen Dancs,Toronto Canada
In a previous article, INJ...@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA (JACK GOLD) says:
>orio...@webtv.net (Bogdan Avrigeanu) writes:
>>
>>all religions boil down to this: I believe therefore it exists
That's too egocentric; most of the morons with no brains to think for
themselves have the "many people believe/they/he/she believe(s), therefore
it must be true" approach. ;-)
>INEXACT: I believe, therefore I am able to understand!
Another oxymoron de la Jack cetire. For guys like you Jack, "I believe
threfore I'm a moron" is much more appropiate. ;-)
(Note: answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
ACYCL0NE
Bogdan wrote:
" ...I believe,therefore it exists "
Jack Gold corrected him:
" INEXACT :
I believe, therefore I am able to understand"
Not necessarily true: I believe , therefore I AM a believer
but I am not sure that what I believe is also true.As for un-
derstanding, we had better not get into that. Witness the
more than 800 religions ( beliefs) stemming from one and
the same Truth ! Are they all right ? Are they all wrong ?
Quien sabe ! Reality /Truth after all is not what IS but what
I believe..
The Copenhagen school approach put an end to the classical
idea of objectivty, viz. that the world enjoys a state of existen-
ce independent of our perception of it. (The old classical ob-
jectivity maintains that the world moves on our awareness of
the process notwithstanding.,whereas the Copenhagen group
advanced the idea that if we look closely at the world- at the le-
vel of atoms, that is- then its actual state of existence depends
on HOW we observe it and on what we CHOOSE to see...
Interpreting Schroedinger's waves- the indeterminism of the
quantum world- they concluded that obective reality ought to
be supplanted by the " observer-created reality " !
JACK GOLD
The meaning of "I am able to understand" is here "I have the potential
of understanding." Daca esti de acord ca exista o cunoastere dincolo de
limitele cunoasterii directe omenesti apare clar ca nu poti avea nici-o
sansa de a ajunge dincolo de ea fara sa crezi (belief) ca ea exista, si
a face eforturile necesare, adica sa te straduiesti sa ai o inima
curata. Aceasta presupune deasemenea primatul adevarului, adica a plasa
adevarul mai presus de interesele tale individuale si de grup. Revelatia
divina are propria ei logica diferita de logica humana. Relatia Belief-
Understanding este diferita de situatia umana.
Jack
>.