Taiwanese "death ship"

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Wally Keeler

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May 31, 1996, 3:00:00 AM5/31/96
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The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996

COPS RIPPED FOR SEIZING DEATH SHIP
Lawyers say RCMP don't have authority
by Scott Burnside

Lawyers for seven officers arrested during the dramatic tactical unit
assault on the freighter Dubai say the RCMP have run roughshod over their
client's rights.
The seven men, accused of throwing three Romanian stowaways overboard
on the high seas, sat meekly during yesterday's proceedings, clad in drab,
prison green shirts and pants. They listened through an interpreter as
their lawyers accused the RCMP of illegally commandeering their vessel,
giving other crew lie detector tests and launching an extensive search --
activities that were continuing even as yesterday's court appearance took
place.
"They're basically there, they've carried out a search of the vessel
without search warrant, without any lawful authority whatsoever, in
opposition to the owners and the Taiwanese government," said an angry
Duncan Beveridge, who represents one of the officers.
The allegations were made before the same Nova Scotia Supreme Court
judge who issued the arrest warrant that led to Wednesday's storming of the
Maersk Dubai in the middle of Halifax Harbor. Although Mr Justice Hilroy
Nathanson refused to comment directly on the RCMP's activities since the
Wednesday afternoon raid, he said the warrant was limited to arresting six
officers (the seventh had previously deserted the ship by jumping overboard
in the harbor).
RCMP officers, who had earlier patiently answered reporter's questions
about the raid, offered abrupt "no-comments" outside court.
The seven men were arrested by heavily armed RCMP officers after
Canadian Justice officials obtained an apprehension warrant, issued at the
request of the Romanian government. It has charged the Taiwanese officers
with murder in absentia.
The men now face an extradition hearing, theoretically within the next
60 days.
Lawyers who represent the men acknowledge the prospect of a murder
trial in Bucharest weighs heavily on the minds of their clients.
"Wouldn't you be worried too?" asked Warren Zimmer, who represents the
youthful captain of the Dubai, 34-year old Shiou Cheng. "What kind of trial
can these guys expect? Especially when the death penalty may be waiting for
them at the end."
The seven will return to court next Wednesday [June 5/96]

***************************************************************************

TAIWAN SEES CREW AS VICTIMS
by Scott Burnside

It's not surprising the strange saga of the Maersk Dubai is front page
news in Taiwan. But half a world away, the seven Taiwanese officers
arrested by an RCMP tactical unit are being portrayed as victims, not
murderers.
Jeremy Fu, a correspondent with the Chinese language Daily News, the
largest daily in Taiwan, said that, generally speaking, the officers are
believed to be innocent. Fu was in court yesterday along with a Chinese tv
crew, chatting amiably with the men accused of throwing three Romanian
stowaways to their deaths somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean. Also in Court
was Capt. Ta-Ren Lee, vice-president of the Maersk Dubai's parent company,
the Yang Ming Line.
He spoke with the prisoners, squeezing their shoulders in encouragement
as court began.
Sitting a few rows behind the men, and also nodding his encouragement,
was Frank S. S. Chang, an official with the Taiwanese government. Chang and
other diplomats are lobbying Canada to ignore a Romanian deportation
request and instead hand over the men to Taiwan.
Fu said the ship's captain, Shiou Cheng, 34, is "very mentally
depressed" as are his crew.
--
Wally Keeler Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency is
Peoples Republic of Poetry Poetency

Alexander Varias

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Jun 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/1/96
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Wally Keeler (af...@torfree.net) wrote:
: The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996

As far as I know, members of the European Council have no death penalty,
with the notable exception of Russia which has been recently included in
the EC and is "supposed" comply in the near future (ie. after Yeltsin
wins the upcoming election).

: The seven will return to court next Wednesday [June 5/96]

: ***************************************************************************

Thanks to Wally Keeler for posting articles on this story.

Alex Varias


T.M.Lutas

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Jun 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/1/96
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In article <DsAK3x.5CE...@torfree.net>, af...@torfree.net (Wally
Keeler) wrote:

> The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996
>
> COPS RIPPED FOR SEIZING DEATH SHIP
> Lawyers say RCMP don't have authority
> by Scott Burnside
>
> Lawyers for seven officers arrested during the dramatic tactical unit
> assault on the freighter Dubai say the RCMP have run roughshod over their
> client's rights.

An interesting accusation...

> Lawyers who represent the men acknowledge the prospect of a murder
> trial in Bucharest weighs heavily on the minds of their clients.
> "Wouldn't you be worried too?" asked Warren Zimmer, who represents the
> youthful captain of the Dubai, 34-year old Shiou Cheng. "What kind of trial
> can these guys expect? Especially when the death penalty may be waiting for
> them at the end."

Article 22 sect. 3 of the 1991 Romanian Constitution bans the death penalty.

Of course since there is no death penalty currently in Romania this completely
blows these guys credibility. I'd still investigate their accusations but I
would be a whole lot more skeptical now.

DB

--
The Romanian Political Pages http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!

T.M.Lutas

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Jun 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/1/96
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In article <DsAK3x.5CE...@torfree.net>, af...@torfree.net (Wally
Keeler) wrote:

> The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996

> TAIWAN SEES CREW AS VICTIMS
> by Scott Burnside

> Sitting a few rows behind the men, and also nodding his encouragement,


> was Frank S. S. Chang, an official with the Taiwanese government. Chang and
> other diplomats are lobbying Canada to ignore a Romanian deportation
> request and instead hand over the men to Taiwan.
> Fu said the ship's captain, Shiou Cheng, 34, is "very mentally
> depressed" as are his crew.

I've had some small personal experience in Taiwanese officials interfering
in criminal situations in the US. I wouldn't trust the bastards as far as I
could throw them.

ZODIAN ANDREI

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Jun 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/1/96
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In article <DsAxsu.IF...@torfree.net>,
Alexander Varias <bm...@torfree.net> wrote:

>Wally Keeler (af...@torfree.net) wrote:
>: The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996
>
>: COPS RIPPED FOR SEIZING DEATH SHIP

>: Lawyers say RCMP don't have authority
>: by Scott Burnside
>
>: "Wouldn't you be worried too?" asked Warren Zimmer, who represents the

>: youthful captain of the Dubai, 34-year old Shiou Cheng. "What kind of trial
>: can these guys expect? Especially when the death penalty may be waiting for
>: them at the end."
>
>As far as I know, members of the European Council have no death penalty,
>with the notable exception of Russia which has been recently included in
>the EC and is "supposed" comply in the near future (ie. after Yeltsin
>wins the upcoming election).
>

Precisely. If I remember correctly, the death penalty has been
eliminated from the Romanian law quite a while ago. Can NE1 confirm
this?

If it's not, Romania has no chance of winning the extradition hearings.

l8rz,

--
_ _ _ |Andrei Zodian |"In fact, nothing is
/_\ _ _ __| |_ _ ___(_) |University of Toronto |being said that has not
/ _ \| ' \/ _` | '_/ -_) | |zod...@ecf.toronto.edu |been said B4" Terence,
/_/ \_\_||_\__,_|_| \___|_| |http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/~zodian | 190-159 BC

Szu-Wen Huang

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Jun 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/1/96
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Alexander Varias (bm...@torfree.net) wrote:
: Wally Keeler (af...@torfree.net) wrote:
[snip]
:: "Wouldn't you be worried too?" asked Warren Zimmer, who represents the

:: youthful captain of the Dubai, 34-year old Shiou Cheng. "What kind of trial
:: can these guys expect? Especially when the death penalty may be waiting for
:: them at the end."

: As far as I know, members of the European Council have no death penalty,
: with the notable exception of Russia which has been recently included in
: the EC and is "supposed" comply in the near future (ie. after Yeltsin
: wins the upcoming election).

[snip]

It's not just the death penalty. It's more fundamental than that.
It's whether these men will be able to get the fair trial they are
entitled to.

Andy Tai

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
to

In article <DsAK3x.5CE...@torfree.net> af...@torfree.net (Wally Keeler) writes:
>The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996
>
>COPS RIPPED FOR SEIZING DEATH SHIP
>Lawyers say RCMP don't have authority
>by Scott Burnside
>
> Lawyers for seven officers arrested during the dramatic tactical unit
>assault on the freighter Dubai say the RCMP have run roughshod over their
>client's rights.
> The seven men, accused of throwing three Romanian stowaways overboard
>on the high seas, sat meekly during yesterday's proceedings, clad in drab,
>prison green shirts and pants. They listened through an interpreter as
>their lawyers accused the RCMP of illegally commandeering their vessel,
>giving other crew lie detector tests and launching an extensive search --
>activities that were continuing even as yesterday's court appearance took
>place.
> "They're basically there, they've carried out a search of the vessel
>without search warrant, without any lawful authority whatsoever, in
>opposition to the owners and the Taiwanese government," said an angry
>Duncan Beveridge, who represents one of the officers.

>--

>Wally Keeler Poetry
>Creative Intelligence Agency is
>Peoples Republic of Poetry Poetency

Canada should respect the law of the international community and not
violate the territory of China (Taiwan). The arrested are citizens
of the Republic of China and Canada or Romania have no rights over
them. Romania's charges on these people violate the laws of the
ROC. Thus, Romania's request for obtaining these officiers
is illegal and null and void.

Stefan Saroiu

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
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In article <DsAK3x.5CE...@torfree.net>,

Wally Keeler <af...@torfree.net> wrote:
>The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996
>
>COPS RIPPED FOR SEIZING DEATH SHIP
>Lawyers say RCMP don't have authority
>by Scott Burnside
>

> "Wouldn't you be worried too?" asked Warren Zimmer, who represents the


>youthful captain of the Dubai, 34-year old Shiou Cheng. "What kind of trial
>can these guys expect? Especially when the death penalty may be waiting for
>them at the end."

> The seven will return to court next Wednesday [June 5/96]
>

That's bullshit.

The death penalty doesn't exist both in Romania and Canada.


Stefan.

P.S. Predictions (the following are only my predicitions and saying them
I don't represent anybody :-) =>
The 7 Taiwanese (or whatever they are) won't be deported in Romania. Canadians
will make a lot of noise out of this and will take whatever amount of dollars
from the Tawianese government, after which they will return the crew to
Taiwan (with a very poor excuse to Romania).

And now, let's wait and see !!! :-)

--
****************Stefan Saroiu*************************University of Waterloo***
e-mail:ssa...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca************Faculty of Mathematics***
http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~ssaroiu/**********Computer Science*****
**************A Safe Sin Tour*************************Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Mike Lazar

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
to

Andy Tai (at...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu) writes:
> In article <DsAK3x.5CE...@torfree.net> af...@torfree.net (Wally Keeler) writes:

>>The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996
>>
>>COPS RIPPED FOR SEIZING DEATH SHIP
>>Lawyers say RCMP don't have authority
>>by Scott Burnside
>>

>> Lawyers for seven officers arrested during the dramatic tactical unit
>>assault on the freighter Dubai say the RCMP have run roughshod over their
>>client's rights.
>> The seven men, accused of throwing three Romanian stowaways overboard
>>on the high seas, sat meekly during yesterday's proceedings, clad in drab,
>>prison green shirts and pants. They listened through an interpreter as
>>their lawyers accused the RCMP of illegally commandeering their vessel,
>>giving other crew lie detector tests and launching an extensive search --
>>activities that were continuing even as yesterday's court appearance took
>>place.
>> "They're basically there, they've carried out a search of the vessel
>>without search warrant, without any lawful authority whatsoever, in
>>opposition to the owners and the Taiwanese government," said an angry
>>Duncan Beveridge, who represents one of the officers.
>
>>--
>>Wally Keeler Poetry
>>Creative Intelligence Agency is
>>Peoples Republic of Poetry Poetency
>
>
>
> Canada should respect the law of the international community and not
> violate the territory of China (Taiwan).

May I respectfully note that a taiwanese ship is not taiwanese territory
(in contrast with a diplomatic mission).
A taiwanese ship in Canadian waters
(harbour) is subject to Canadian law.

The arrested are citizens
> of the Republic of China and Canada or Romania have no rights over
> them.

So, I can go to Taiwan, murder somebody, then leave because
taiwanese authorities have no jurisdiction over a
foreign citizen ? Or this works this way only for
taiwanese citizens in foreign countries: they visit,
kill a few local folks, then go home, as nobody has a right over them :-).



Romania's charges on these people violate the laws of the
> ROC.

Well, who cares. ROC laws do not apply neither
in Canada, nor in Romania.

Thus, Romania's request for obtaining these officiers
> is illegal and null and void.
>

This may be, but only under international sea law.
You see, when a crime is commited on a ship, in high seas
(not in territorial waters), it seems
(but not very clearly) that the state
where a ship is registered has the right to prosecute
the crime.
I'm no expert in these legal matters, but it looks like
another possibility under international law
is that the case could also be prosecuted
by the country of the alledged victims.

And it is yet unclear whether one of
the victims was thrown at sea in Canadian or
international waters; the former would transform this
into a Canadian matter.

To make things even more complicated, Taiwan
is not an international (fully) recognized state.

Mihai (Mike) Lazar


Constantin Teodor

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
to

Until now not a single person was able to face the real fact,
and consider the situation as it is.
1. there is no proof that a crime has been committed
2. everyone else has been blamed but the dictatorial administration
which is in power in Bucharest.
3. there is no point for the Canadian government to change its laws
just to suit a few romanian bums, the laws of any nation has to be
respected, no matter what.
4. not a single creature which posts on this newsgroup has considered the
situation from the captain's point of view, from what he was concerned
the creatures which he found on board of the ship under HIS command,
could be pirates or murderers, and for that matter they might have some
other intentions - maybe to take over the ship, god knows what.
You people must be fully aware of the rules and jurisdiction which is
in place at sea.

If you people are so "concerned" about the fate of the "suffering" romanian
people why you do not offer them any help to obtain an entry visa for the
country of their choosing?

- another matter is as follows - the Canadian Judiciary must be
satisfied, that the 7 INNOCENTS, will stand a fair trial, and from the
comments of this newsgroup, and for that matter of the Romanian government,
& press have not proven that they will have a chance to a fair trial in
Romania, on the other hand since when the Romanian courts have been know
as being fair to the accused.

- It will be morally wrong for the Canadian government, to expose the
accused persons to the judicial corruption which is in currently in place
in Romania, it will also be legally wrong to deprive them of a free and
fair trial- and they do not have a chance in the world to receive it in
Romania - this is a fact no matter what you people are going to say.

If the lawyers defending the accused persons are interested to find facts
about the corrupt way in which the judiciary operates in Romania, please
feel free to e-mail your questions at
s92...@minyos.its.rmit.edu.au

At this point in time I am making attempts to conntact the Canadian,
DPP, in order to send them some information about the Romanian courts,
and this is because I am sure that when they will learn more about the
joke of the Romanian legal system which is currently in place, they will
stop their actions against the accused persons.

In the end I would like to mention again the fact that the captain of the
ship is the supreme authority at sea, no matter what, on the other hand,
he could not expose the crew and the ship to unecessary danger, if is true
that, there were some people on board of the ship, they were as a result
of breaking the law, and if there was precedence of disobidience and
disrespect for the law, therefore they could engage in some other
malitious conduct in the future which could endangered the lifes of the
crew and the safety of the ship - therefore are more than enough grounds,
to act the way he did - if he acted in such a way.

Hermes1

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
to Andy Tai


On 2 Jun 1996, Andy Tai wrote:

> Canada should respect the law of the international community and not

> violate the territory of China (Taiwan). The arrested are citizens


> of the Republic of China and Canada or Romania have no rights over

> them. Romania's charges on these people violate the laws of the
> ROC. Thus, Romania's request for obtaining these officiers

> is illegal and null and void.

I don't think ships & their crews are diplomats ! However, I am sure
that the shipping company that owns the ship has enough substance to
hire a sufficient number of Canadian lawyers to rectify any possible
police abuse.

Furthermore I look upon the 'perpetrators' as victims, just as much the
Romanians they molested.
They are victims of the 'bottom line' and the vicious anti immigration
laws implemented by such as the USA & Canada.

The death of these Romanians should be a burden not only on the Chinese
officers but also on the Canadian government, for setting up a draconic
a law that is impossible for a shipping company to comply with.

The Canadian government is as much a murderer, or more, in this
unfortunate instance as the acused.

m. cristian


Edward Antoniu

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
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at...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Andy Tai) writes:

>ROC. Thus, Romania's request for obtaining these officiers
>is illegal and null and void.

Oh, I see. Legal and righteous is only a Taiwanese criminal's right to
kill people for money, always and everywhere.

Eddie
--
I want a Yes reunion and you know I want it now/No Anderson, Walkman, Buttholes
'n' How!/We'll listen to the opera, and smoke the angel's dust/You can't get
much more, fuckin' progressive than us! (The Dead Milkmen 1989)
ant...@cs.ualberta.ca http:/www.cs.ualberta.ca/~antoniu

Edward Antoniu

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
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s92...@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (Constantin Teodor) writes:

>Until now not a single person was able to face the real fact,
>and consider the situation as it is.

>At this point in time I am making attempts to conntact the Canadian,


>DPP, in order to send them some information about the Romanian courts,
>and this is because I am sure that when they will learn more about the
>joke of the Romanian legal system which is currently in place, they will
>stop their actions against the accused persons.

Mai, clarvazatorule, stii ce, vedea-te-as eu pe tine in mainile
bestiilor galbene si fara filipinezi in jur (tot galbeni da' probabil mai cu
Dumnezeu decat tine)!

Edi

Wally Keeler

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
to

at...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Andy Tai)

|Canada should respect the law of the international community and not
|violate the territory of China (Taiwan).

Taiwanese ship officers should respect the law of the international
community and abide by common global morality and not violate the life of
anyone regardless of citizenship or ethnicity.

|The arrested are citizens of the Republic of China and Canada or Romania
|have no rights over them.

Consequently a Canadian captain can throw a Chinese citizen overboard on
the high seas, and the Peoples Republic of China has no right to say a word
about it. Yeah, right.

|Romania's charges on these people violate the laws of the ROC.

Since when do the laws of the Peoples Republic of China prevail all over
the world. The United States is getting a lot of flack for the
extraterritoriality of its laws concerning third party trade with Cuba. At
any rate, I would much prefer that the matter by handled by a government
which has a very long tradition with democratic-based jurisprudence,
something totally lacking with the Peoples Republic of China, something
akin to infancy insofar as Taiwan and Romania are concerned.

|Thus, Romania's request for obtaining these officiers is illegal and null
|and void.

Thus, Taiwan's Johnny-come-lately attitude towards the entire matter is
irrelevent and insignificant.

Sorin Voinigescu

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
to

s92...@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (Constantin Teodor) wrote:
>Until now not a single person was able to face the real fact,
>and consider the situation as it is.

>1. there is no proof that a crime has been committed

Apparently the Mounties have collected some solid proof for that.

>2. everyone else has been blamed but the dictatorial administration
> which is in power in Bucharest.

They are assholes but it is rather hard to blame this one on them, at least not
directly.

>3. there is no point for the Canadian government to change its laws
> just to suit a few romanian bums, the laws of any nation has to be
> respected, no matter what.

They (the Canadian police) have justified their action within the law.
On the other hand there must be something deeper for this somewhat
surprising show of force for the benefit of the Romanian government
(elections are coming ...).


>4. not a single creature which posts on this newsgroup has considered the
> situation from the captain's point of view, from what he was concerned
> the creatures which he found on board of the ship under HIS command,
> could be pirates or murderers, and for that matter they might have some
> other intentions - maybe to take over the ship, god knows what.
> You people must be fully aware of the rules and jurisdiction which is
> in place at sea.
>

Yeah, right!. And those rules justify murder!


>If you people are so "concerned" about the fate of the "suffering" romanian
> people why you do not offer them any help to obtain an entry visa for the
> country of their choosing?
>
> - another matter is as follows - the Canadian Judiciary must be
>satisfied, that the 7 INNOCENTS, will stand a fair trial, and from the
>comments of this newsgroup, and for that matter of the Romanian government,
>& press have not proven that they will have a chance to a fair trial in
>Romania, on the other hand since when the Romanian courts have been know
>as being fair to the accused.
>

But, as Edi so eloquently put it in his reply, your chinese/taiwanese friends
are not reputed for their defense of human rigths and democracy either.

>
>

Cheeaahs (to make Wally happy)

Sorin


Marius Hancu

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Jun 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/2/96
to

at...@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Andy Tai) writes:

>Canada should respect the law of the international community and not

>violate the territory of China (Taiwan). The arrested are citizens


>of the Republic of China and Canada or Romania have no rights over

>them. Romania's charges on these people violate the laws of the
>ROC.

What laws? Any laws allowing ROC citizens to kill people at sea?
And then denying everything, just like the Japanese did for the
massacre of Nanking? Thanks god there were some Filipinos on that
ship, which you Taiwanese don't seem to like too much either ...

The international law allows Canada to search any ship at the request
of one of the involved parties. We have better lawyers here ...

Marius Hancu

--
Marius Hancu
e-mail: ha...@cam.org

Valeriu Hagiu

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Jun 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/3/96
to Her...@cris.com

The Canadian government is as much a murderer, or more, in this
unfortunate instance as the acused.

>You are 100% correct.
V.G.

T.M.Lutas

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Jun 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/3/96
to

In article <4osd9u$g...@aggedor.rmit.EDU.AU>,
s92...@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (Constantin Teodor) wrote:

> Until now not a single person was able to face the real fact,
> and consider the situation as it is.
> 1. there is no proof that a crime has been committed

There has been evidence found that the people were there. This plus
several eyewitness statements are certainly enough for a conviction.

> 3. there is no point for the Canadian government to change its laws
> just to suit a few romanian bums, the laws of any nation has to be
> respected, no matter what.

The suggestion isn't being made to suit a few bums of any nationality.
It was made (by me) so that captains are encouraged to act responsibly
and not commit murder to avoid large fines in a very competitive business.

> 4. not a single creature which posts on this newsgroup has considered the
> situation from the captain's point of view, from what he was concerned
> the creatures which he found on board of the ship under HIS command,
> could be pirates or murderers, and for that matter they might have some
> other intentions - maybe to take over the ship, god knows what.
> You people must be fully aware of the rules and jurisdiction which is
> in place at sea.

If you can put people in a raft or toss them overboard, you certainly can
lock them up in a hold, a brig, or other secure space until they dock at
their next port of call at which time they can turn the prisoner over to
the authorities. This is the normal established procedure for dangerous
people in any situation. You are not allowed to be judge, jury, and
executioner except in self-defense of your life and sometimes your property.

There have been no representations made in public that the officers
believed they were dealing with pirates or other scum. The danger that
these people posed to the ship they stowed away on was one and only one
thing $7,000 per head.

> If you people are so "concerned" about the fate of the "suffering" romanian
> people why you do not offer them any help to obtain an entry visa for the
> country of their choosing?

And what makes you think that I don't? I grew up helping people either
get in, stay in, find a job, and learn english in the USA. I'm likely
to continue doing it all my life. That doesn't mean that I do this full
time or I even should be doing this full time to fulfill your conception
of enough volunteerism.

> - another matter is as follows - the Canadian Judiciary must be
> satisfied, that the 7 INNOCENTS, will stand a fair trial, and from the
> comments of this newsgroup, and for that matter of the Romanian government,
> & press have not proven that they will have a chance to a fair trial in
> Romania, on the other hand since when the Romanian courts have been know
> as being fair to the accused.

That's 7 accused. Their innocence is in doubt. That is what the trial is
all about. There is a presumption of innocence, not a predetermination of
it.

Of course if they determine that it is impossible for someone to get a
fair trial in Romania, that judicial decision is immediately going to be
appended to every Romanian asylum seeker's dossier in Canada and beyond.
Somehow, I don't think it's going to happen as a practical matter.

> - It will be morally wrong for the Canadian government, to expose the
> accused persons to the judicial corruption which is in currently in place
> in Romania, it will also be legally wrong to deprive them of a free and
> fair trial- and they do not have a chance in the world to receive it in
> Romania - this is a fact no matter what you people are going to say.

For a corrupt judge to be a problem, somebody has to pay to bribe the
guy. So who is going to pay? The poor families of the three victims who
probably have no money? Come up with a plausible source for the corrupt
money and then we'll talk. I don't have any problem with the idea that
justice is for sale in Romania. I just don't know who would bother buying
it in this case.

> In the end I would like to mention again the fact that the captain of the
> ship is the supreme authority at sea, no matter what, on the other hand,
> he could not expose the crew and the ship to unecessary danger, if is true
> that, there were some people on board of the ship, they were as a result
> of breaking the law, and if there was precedence of disobidience and
> disrespect for the law, therefore they could engage in some other
> malitious conduct in the future which could endangered the lifes of the
> crew and the safety of the ship - therefore are more than enough grounds,
> to act the way he did - if he acted in such a way.

The captain has no right to kill people at his pleasure without answering
to charges even if he does so on the high seas. Your view of captains
rights far exceeds any that I've ever heard of. All evidence so far
points to the situation where these people were put off the ship to avoid
a $7,000 fine. They died. I think we shouldn't lose sight of that in all
this discussion.

Serban Dragnea

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Jun 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/3/96
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In article <DsCJn...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, ssa...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Stefan Saroiu) writes:
. . .


|>
|> P.S. Predictions (the following are only my predicitions and saying them
|> I don't represent anybody :-) =>
|> The 7 Taiwanese (or whatever they are) won't be deported in Romania. Canadians
|> will make a lot of noise out of this and will take whatever amount of dollars
|> from the Tawianese government, after which they will return the crew to
|> Taiwan (with a very poor excuse to Romania).
|>

. . .
I am curious to know who do you think is going to take the money for Canada. Is it
the Canadian government or some individual? Is it going to be a bribe of some sort
or an official bill from the Canadian department of justice to the Taiwanese
government? And furthermore is it going to be $10,000 or $1,000,000 ? Maybe Romania
should try to outbid them.

Serban.

Edward Antoniu

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Jun 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/3/96
to

Cand am facut follow up am uitat ca serverul trimmeaza singur lista de
expediere la cel mult doua newsgroupuri, ca sa taie raul de crossposting din
fasha, si cum in lista deja erau trei newgroupuri exact ala romanesc a fost
taiat. Hm, simbolic. Replica mea nu era esentiala, dar o redau pentru
completitudine in tot ce s-a discutat in ultimele zile. Esentiala este in
schimb opinia acestui individ care ma pune pe ganduri, dupa cum tot pe ganduri
ma pune si inversunarea anti-romaneasca a celui din down under care nu si-a dat
inca seama ca de fapt toata lumea asta e comunista dintr-un anumit punct de
vedere. Noroc ca mai exista chinezi de treaba din mainland ca Tingli Pan de la
Wisconsin ca sa ma lamuresc si eu intr-un caz cu cine imi pierd timpul sa stau
de vorba. Dar in celalalt?

Edi

Newsgroup: soc.culture.canada, article: 130551
Path: alberta!antoniu
From: ant...@cs.ualberta.ca (Edward Antoniu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Taiwanese "death ship"
Date: 3 Jun 1996 15:54:25 GMT
Organization: Computing Science, U of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4ov1rh$8...@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>
References: <DsAK3x.5CE...@torfree.net> <4oqtii$q...@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <Pi
ne.SUN.3.93.9606021...@galileo.cris.com> <tcyangDsDxy3.3vJ@netco
m.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sawnlk.cs.ualberta.ca
Xref: alberta soc.culture.taiwan:140819 soc.culture.canada:130551


tcy...@netcom.com (Tung-chiang Yang) writes:

>Romanian stowaways (if they existed),
>Tung-chiang Yang tcy...@netcom.com

Huh?

Eddie

T.M.Lutas

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Jun 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/3/96
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In article <tcyangDs...@netcom.com>, tcy...@netcom.com (Tung-chiang
Yang) wrote:

> Hermes1 (Her...@cris.com) wrote:

> > Furthermore I look upon the 'perpetrators' as victims, just as much the
> > Romanians they molested.
> > They are victims of the 'bottom line' and the vicious anti immigration
> > laws implemented by such as the USA & Canada.
>

> By using "just as much the Romanians they molested", you assumed they are
> guilty.
>
> Frankly, nobody knows what exactaly happened on the cargo ship unless
> later some knife/glove with blood stains and fingerprints are found. The
> Romanian stowaways (if they existed), the Taiwanese crews and the
> Phillipine crews knew what happened, but unless they are willing to tell
> the truth, we outsiders won't know.

The entire affair started because the Filipino's jumped ship and told
the story to the canadians. The stories were consistent and compelling
enough to start provoking an investigation and slowing down the departure
of the craft with the inspection that was done (legal and probably
excruciatingly thorough).

> True, it was reported that Canadian authorities have found some hair,
> urine and stools on the ship which did not belong to any Taiwanese and/or
> Phillipine crew members, and some other Romanian people claimed they knew
> who were likely to have boarded the ship, but is there any solid
> evidence showing they did board the ship? I don't think so. Is it
> possible that these stools and hair samples were left by someone else
> before the ship arrived in Spain and later left for Halifax? We
> outsiders never know.

I don't know about hair but stool can probably be reliably dated. Also
if they were found in areas that would have been cleaned and/or removed
if they had predated the boarding time in (I believe) Spain then the
provenance of the samples is pretty well established as coming from
people on the ship at the previous port but gone from the next port.

If a murderer disposes of a body so that it cannot be produced does that
mean that no conviction can happen? I don't think so.

> If the Phillipine sailors can hide one of the stowaways from Taiwanese
> crews so he would not be found and forced to jump off the ship,
> theoretically they could also argue with this Romanian stowaway and
> pushed him into the sea without anyone else knowing, then charge the
> Taiwanese crew members for murder. We outsiders never know.

So the crew and not the officers are to blame? I would bring a few
points of disagreement with this theory.

1. Officers of the ship are responsible to a greater or lesser extent
of the actions of the crew. Even if your theory is correct, the officers
were negligent to let it happen and deserve punishment for that.
2. The crew are probably not financially impacted by the port fines. They
are not responsible. Officers who let stowaways get on their ships *are*
financially impacted because of their diminished career records. The crew
have no motivation to risk a murder sentence on their own. The officers
do.
3. If the crew is responsible why risk telling the police about it in
Canada? If their story is unmasked, they get a murder sentence. Given
Western judicial practices it is unlikely that the officers are going
to be railroaded into deportation, then jail. And the shipping line will
know and blackball the crew. They will never work again.

No, your theory is implausible to say the least.

> I am not saying the Phillipine sailors are also suspicious. The point
> is, nobody can have solid evidences showing what exactly happened on the
> cargo ship. Eventually all crew members from Taiwan and Phillipine will
> be set free under the assumption "presumed innocent until proven guilty",
> unless they are willing to confess.

No, the guilt or innocence will be determined in a court of law. It depends
on how convincing the Filipino crewmen are and how convincing the Taiwanese
are. There have been people convicted in murder cases before on less
eyewitness testimony than is available in this instance.

T.M.Lutas

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Jun 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/3/96
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In article <tcyangDs...@netcom.com>, tcy...@netcom.com (Tung-chiang
Yang) wrote:

> Wally Keeler (af...@torfree.net) wrote:

> > Consequently a Canadian captain can throw a Chinese citizen overboard on
> > the high seas, and the Peoples Republic of China has no right to say a word
> > about it. Yeah, right.
>

> PRC can show their concern, but they have no right to arrest the
> suspects.
>
> If now I walk on Canadian streets and get robbed, are you happy to see
> police from Taiwan to go to Calgary and arrest bad guys?

Under certain cases that does happen. The cases are set up in treaty both
multilateral and bilateral. Apparently one of the features of the Canadian/
Romanian relationship is that Canadians will execute Romanian arrest warrants
if a murder of a Romanian citizen is committed on the high seas and the
suspects are in a Canadian port.

These treaties are in the public record and anyone can educate themselves
so that they understand who can and cannot arrest them. The fact that some
murderers do not understand the entire subtleties of international
jurisdictional criminal law is all to the benefit of those who are
civilized and want to see justice done.

> > Thus, Taiwan's Johnny-come-lately attitude towards the entire matter is
> > irrelevent and insignificant.
>

> Keep in mind that because Canada had diplomatic relationship with
> People's Republic of China, which considers Taiwan as a renegrade
> province of China, Taiwan is not allowed to have ambassadors in Canada.
>
> Hope this explains to you why representatives from Taiwan responded so
> slowly.

If I understand correctly there is an organization with the resources
of a Taiwanese embassy which functions as same in Canada? There certainly
is one in the US. The non-recognition problem does keep Taiwan from
doing all it would like to do diplomatically, but in an age of instant
intercontinental communications, the idea that the lack of an embassy
kept Taiwan from reacting with all appropriate speed to this incident
sounds pretty lame

Sylvia Lin

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Jun 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/4/96
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In article <4p035f$m...@cdshub.cdc.com>, Magic says:
>
>In article <tcyangDs...@netcom.com>, tcy...@netcom.com says...
>
>>Oh, I see. Before any court has made a decision on this issue, you
>>already call them "Taiwanese criminal".
>>
>>Do you want to use "suspect" instead?
>
>If you try this case in Canada, USA, then he should use suspect. But if
>this case is going to be tried on Taiwan, he could use Criminal already
>because that's in compliance with the Taiwan law. Every time, the Taiwan
>police catch a "suspect", they would handcuff them and show them on TV and
>lable them CRIMINAL before even seeing the judge, just like in the mainland.
>Another example that ML and Taiwan is just one big family after all.


Magic:

Is is your twisted mind or your lack of knowledge on Chinese
language lead you post this untrue claim? Of course, only you know the
answer. It is true that suspects are often shown with handcuffs on their
hands on TV just like here in the State. However, they are always called
SUSPECTS (shyan-fan) rather than CRIMINALS (fan-ren or tzuey-fan). If
you don't understand the differences between the three terms, please
check your Chinese dictionary. No matter where you are, please watch all
news (including Taiwanese news) with an open heart and open ears.

Sylvia

Wally Keeler

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Jun 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/4/96
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>The Toronto Sun, May 31, 1996
>COPS RIPPED FOR SEIZING DEATH SHIP
>Lawyers say RCMP don't have authority
>by Scott Burnside
> "Wouldn't you be worried too?" asked Warren Zimmer, who represents the
>youthful captain of the Dubai, 34-year old Shiou Cheng. "What kind of
>trial can these guys expect? Especially when the death penalty may be
>waiting for them at the end."
> The seven will return to court next Wednesday [June 5/96]

ssa...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Stefan Saroiu) wrote:
|That's bullshit. The death penalty doesn't exist both in Romania and
|Canada.

Right on!

|P.S. Predictions (the following are only my predicitions and saying them
|I don't represent anybody :-) =>

At least anybody intelligent.

|The 7 Taiwanese (or whatever they are) won't be deported in Romania.
|Canadians will make a lot of noise out of this and will take whatever
|amount of dollars from the Tawianese government, after which they will
|return the crew to Taiwan (with a very poor excuse to Romania).

Just like the US gov't took whatever amount of dollars from the Soviet
gov't to turn a blind to the "man on the grassy knoll" with a very poor
excuse to the Warren Commission. Methinks Stefan Saroiu's kite just crash
landed due to lack of wind current.

Encryption

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Jun 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/4/96
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In article <4p09j9$o...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,

Sylvia Lin <sylv...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> Is is your twisted mind or your lack of knowledge on Chinese
>language lead you post this untrue claim? Of course, only you know the
>answer. It is true that suspects are often shown with handcuffs on their
>hands on TV just like here in the State. However, they are always called
>SUSPECTS (shyan-fan) rather than CRIMINALS (fan-ren or tzuey-fan). If
>you don't understand the differences between the three terms, please
>check your Chinese dictionary. No matter where you are, please watch all
>news (including Taiwanese news) with an open heart and open ears.
>


* A legal expert urged the Taiwan government not to get distracted from the
ultimate goal of serving justice in its row with Canada and Romania for
legal jurisdiction over the Taiwan-registered container ship "Dubal."
C.V. Chen, a leading expert in international law, suggested that the
government emphasize the transparency and fairness of Taiwan's judicial
system and its ability to ensure an impartial trial, rather than threaten
to suspend marine links with Canada in requesting the handover of the ship
and its crew.

The above is extracted from the China Post. Silvia is right, they are suspects
and they will receive fair trial in Taiwan IF they were handovered to Taiwan.


Paul

Encryption

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Jun 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/4/96
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In article <4p0hm2$8...@cdshub.cdc.com>, <sylv...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>In article <4p09j9$o...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, sylv...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
>says...
>
>
>You must have left Taiwan too long that you don't know what Taiwan's like.
>*Suspect* in Taiwan is always handcuffed, line up in a long bench full of
>evidence with the reporters taking pictures and the police stand along the
>*suspect* like a hunter with his prey. You ever see that appear in the USA,
>send me a tape.
>
>In USA, the suspect are handcuffed, but it's nowhere like the carnival
>press conference in Taiwan. For all that I can recall Taiwan police is the
>closest thing to the PRC police. Next time when you watch any Taiwan news
>beware it's the *suspects* or criminals that the news reporter are using to
>describe the *suspects*. If not for me wathcing with open heart and ears, I
>might take those suspects as criminals already. For sure, the police does
>make them appear to be. If even Taiwanese don't trust the court, how could
>you ask for the other to trust it.
>

Oh, yeah? Last time I went down to San Francisco and saw a black guy got
chased by cops and after they (the cops) caught up with him, boy did he
take a good beat. Blood all over the place.
Do I need to remind you of all those Maxican guys who got beaten to half
dead by some LA cops not long ago?
Speaking about which cops are more like PRC cops. Ha!

Paul

T.M.Lutas

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Jun 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/5/96
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In article <DsByA...@ecf.toronto.edu>, zod...@ecf.toronto.edu (ZODIAN
ANDREI) wrote:

> Precisely. If I remember correctly, the death penalty has been
> eliminated from the Romanian law quite a while ago. Can NE1 confirm
> this?
>
> If it's not, Romania has no chance of winning the extradition hearings.

The death penalty prohibition is in the constitution. 1991 is when the
new constitution went into effect.

DB

Sylvia Lin

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Jun 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/5/96
to

In article <4p0hm2$8...@cdshub.cdc.com>, Magic says:
>
>You must have left Taiwan too long that you don't know what Taiwan's like.
>*Suspect* in Taiwan is always handcuffed, line up in a long bench full of
>evidence with the reporters taking pictures and the police stand along the
>*suspect* like a hunter with his prey. You ever see that appear in the USA,
>send me a tape.
>
>In USA, the suspect are handcuffed, but it's nowhere like the carnival
>press conference in Taiwan. For all that I can recall Taiwan police is the
>closest thing to the PRC police. Next time when you watch any Taiwan news
>beware it's the *suspects* or criminals that the news reporter are using to
>describe the *suspects*. If not for me wathcing with open heart and ears, I
>might take those suspects as criminals already. For sure, the police does
>make them appear to be. If even Taiwanese don't trust the court, how could
>you ask for the other to trust it.
>
>Magic
>

Magic:

You are right that I have left Taiwan too long that one of my
old neighbor "threated" to kick me out of her house if I did not stop
talking to her with a very polit manner rather than a family-style of
interaction. However, I did not leave Taiwan long enough to forget
what it is like there. Remind you, if you were in Taiwan or had any
relatives in Taiwan in early or mid 1980's, you would have remembered a
high profile funny-sad case of Lee Shy-Ke, a fifty-something retired
soldior who committed the first major "arm"-robbery case in the island
with a toy gun. The government and the media tried to protrait Lee as
a criminal to prevent the happening of any similar crim; however, many
audiance sympathised with Lee because of his
age, the easy crime, or whatever they believed in. In fact, many people
admiored Lee that some moviemaker sensed the smell of cash and made a
movie about him. Most of the suspects showing on TV tried to hide their
faces from the camera that they lowed down their face and bended their
back. That is their body gesture which leads audiance like you to define
them as criminals rather than suspects.
Furthermore, even though you are in title to express your favor
of unification, please don't show this to every subject you encounter
to. Remember two years ago another "Taiwanese Death Ship" in Lake of
Thousand Island, Jeh-Chiang provience. Twenty-six Taiwanese lives were
wasted. I was lucky enough to be in Taiwan during the trial. With
hundrads of audiance seats, only couple of the seat were granted to the
total of hundrads victim's family members, and none of any Taiwanese
attorneies who represented the family members were allowed to seat in
the court. The court process was more like a play than a trial.
"Criminals" read out their crim and regrates from a piece of paper, and
the excution was held in secret. If you can tell everyone here reading
this new group that there are similarities on this issue between Taiwan
and China, you should tell those sad and anger family members of the
26 victims. What an insult to those poor people for their suffer of
losting their love-ones.

Sylvia

ps: Sorry about writting something not really relates to the original
topic. However, I feel a responsibility to clear out some false claims
of this Magic guy.

Mircea Luca

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Jun 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/5/96
to

What amazes and instructs in this otherwise hopeless conversation
-- more then the murders themselves -- is the ingrained disregard
for human life exhibited by some contributors from s.c.t. It is
as if -- I am sorry to say but say I must -- some of these gals
and guys wouldn't hesitate to butcher you over a muffin.


Their badly disguised racism vis-a-vis the Filipino crew is another
fine trait and quite amazing.


Obviously, our core values seem to be too far apart at this stage
for any meaningful exchange to take place.

Mircea

Te-Ming Peng

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Jun 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/6/96
to

Sylvia,

I doubt this Magic has ever lived in Taiwan before, not lived for
long, or left there for a very long time. He made two mistakes in
other posts. One is he claimed that Dr. Sun had never stepped a foot
in Taiwan before; and another is he said Taiwan province also includes
Kinmen. The latter mistake is especially laughable because it is a
common sense for the people in Taiwan that ROC government put Kinmen
as a county of Fujian province.

------------------------------------------------

Serge Comtois

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Jun 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/7/96
to

Marius Hancu wrote:

> What laws? Any laws allowing ROC citizens to kill people at sea?
> And then denying everything, just like the Japanese did for the
> massacre of Nanking? Thanks god there were some Filipinos on that
> ship, which you Taiwanese don't seem to like too much either ...
>
> The international law allows Canada to search any ship at the request
> of one of the involved parties. We have better lawyers here ...
>
> Marius Hancu
>

You're a little bit harsh on the Taiwanese people here Marius. If you'd been caught in such a circumstance,
you'd like to be tried in your own country. I know, you're gonna say that you would never be caught in such a
circumstance. Well, good for you. But some people, a lot of people, sometimes find themselves at the wrong
place, the wrong time. I'm not suggesting that these Taiwanese are innocent. I haven't got a clue of what
happened. I just know the results. But to somehow link this incident to the Nanking massacre is a sign of a
little bit too much imagination and lack of knowledge of history. You probably don't know that a lot of
relatives of Taiwanese died during the Nanking massacre.

As for the relationship between the Taiwanese and Philippinos, I don't know where you got the idea that the
Taiwanese don't like the Philippinos.

Taiwan is not a backward country like you seem to believe. There is a system of law, democracy and all the
things that are so dear to the West...even got TGI Friday's!!

Serge Comtois

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Jun 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM6/7/96