Anacronic blindness
Calin Lazaroiu
Zoltan Gagyi-Palffy wrote:
>
> In article <01bbe638$9eae9820$a256379d@mihaips-dev>,
> "Mihai Popescu-Stanesti" <mih...@microsoft.com> writes:
>
> > Domnilor Evrei, tare bine ar fi ca in loc de un sec "Jos Legionarii!"
> > punctat si cu obscenitati sa veniti cu exemple concrete ale nenorocirilor
> > pe care le-au provocat.
>
> Dar poate si mai bine ar fi daca insusi romanii ar venii cu asemenea
> exemple! Caci asa ar putea fi prevenite multe discutii colaterale
> inutile. Sau este prea mult sa ne asteptam la asa ceva?
>
> Zoli
> --
> "Nu am timp sa gindesc, eu actionez"
> Victor Ciorbea (prim-ministru)
> http://dipmza.physik.uni-mainz.de/~gagyi_palffy/homepage.html
Dear Zoli,
Hear you have an answer from a romanian.I hesitated to write it,since I
expect to recieve some heated replies and I abhor reading such
endless elucubrations lacking any logic and balance.
First of all,all of this debate is almost unbelievable in a
group of educated people,and the lack of knowledge of Jewish culture and
history displayed is unconceivable.Moreover,the lack of capacity of
dialogue is demeaning and leaves a bad impression on the intelectual
abilities of the people involved.To all of those involved in this
(already degenerated )discussion,I want to adress the following
question:do you think you could get any respect from a member of Plato's
academy (some 2400 years ago) with your arguments ?If not,then you
should know why there is so much miscommunication between you and your
oppinion's opponents.I don't want to make any comment on the injuries
and obscenities interspersed with the `intellectual' arguments involved.
Second,let's take a look at the core logical flaw of this kind
of race bashing.The salient point is that races,as well as states and
nations and as well as churces(in their meaning of communities of
believers) are collective,thus statistical entities.Therefore,it should
be expected to find within them a full spectrum of oppinions and
attitudes,some of which are plain wrong or extremist.This is much more
so if the object is Judaism,with its 4000 years of extremely complex
history and its relation with the checkered history of the Jewish
people.Given this elementary fact,any accusation of the type that
Mr.Caragiu brings forth is totally unfounded unless one can show that
the extremism he points to in some of the Jewish religious writings has
a *statistical* relevance.That is,to make his
point,Mr. Caragiu and his friends should be able to proove that the
extremist voices they identify within Judaism and the Jewish people
are not isolated cases,but represent a relevant trend embraced in some
form by the majority of jews or consistently reflected by the acts and
the history of the Jewish people .If one is unable to do so,then the
argument is null and goes to the drain,together with a lot of endless
discution that typically accompanies unsubstantiated allegations.
Because Mr. Caragiu is a mathematician,being therefore used to the
rigors of proof,I trust that he will see the point I am trying to make.
I also hope that he will understand that,given this obvious point, the
burden of the proof of his assertions lies exclusiovely on his
shoulders.I will also try to point out that the only reason for which
the Jewish readers of this group should feel compelled to reply to all
these
unsubstantial accusations is their unfortunate history.That
is,historical experience has taught the jewish people that,despite any
logic,such arguments may convince large groups of othr people,at least
in some special circumstances.Therefore,they know that it is important
to diffuse their dangerous impact ,even though,from a purely logical
point of view,such arguments should be simply ignored as not deserving a
serious discussion unless properly substantiated.
Mr. Caragiu,
We,europeans, had a disastruous experience with anisemitism before and
during the second world war.Can you imagine what a jew feels when he
sees ressurected arguments which sent his granparents into concentration
camps ?Are you ready to sincerely answer this question to yourself ?If
yes,please consider it *before* you start making statements
which ,unavoidably,will produce a chain reaction and will drag you in an
endless controversy.
Let me make my point in a different,more down-to-earth way.Anybody who
has even a superficial knowledge of Christian Church
history will easily find examples of religious writings and documents
which are as extremist as the Judaic examples Mr. Caragiu quotes.
I hope it suffices to check the pogroms of London and Scotland in the
13th century ,the Spanish Inquisition(directed mainly against Spanish
Jews,with a well -orchestrated anti-jewish propaganda) and the many
Catolic documents issued by Cardinals and the Pope
during the middle ages.Do not forget that the Catolic church condoned
the occupation of colonies and showed little more respect to the natives
than the general level of the period.A cursory look at the corresponding
documents of Vatican will yield a very long list of quotes which could
be used in exactly the same way as Mr. Caragiu uses his favourite
quotes,this time,alas,against Chistians.The list can grow endlessly ,and
you can easily add to it.The point,then,is that you can always find
dirt in anybody's history and ,in particular,there is plenty of dirt in
the history of europen peoples,as well as in the history of the
Christian Church.Therefore,it is not surprising that one is able to find
extremism in some jewish writings.
However,it is exactly as representative of the Jews as the dirt in
European history and religion is representative of europeans.
Calin
Mihai Caragiu
On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Calin Lazaroiu wrote:
> point,Mr. Caragiu and his friends should be able to proove that the
> extremist voices they identify within Judaism and the Jewish people
> are not isolated cases,but represent a relevant trend embraced in some
> form by the majority
> <snip> ...
Well, can you imagine that, without being embraced by the majority
(I never said they are), they do represent a relevant trend. I don't
want to imply that such 'trends' do not appear, in specific ways, in
other cultures, you are [obviously ;-(] right on this: I am aware of it,
however I took the liberty to point to one specific "trend", in response
to some nuts who overtly declared they are up for "provocations" on
this newsgroup.
Unfortunately you are such a latecomer in this thread which already
began to be boring for me, so that I will stop right here.
Regards,
Mihai Caragiu
P.S. Forget about "his friends".
Good or bad, that's me... alone.
Rad Edelstein
Mihai Caragiu <car...@math.psu.edu> wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Calin Lazaroiu wrote:
>> point,Mr. Caragiu and his friends should be able to proove that the
>> extremist voices they identify within Judaism and the Jewish people
>> are not isolated cases,but represent a relevant trend embraced in some
>> form by the majority
>> <snip> ...
> Well, can you imagine that, without being embraced by the majority
>(I never said they are), they do represent a relevant trend. I don't
>want to imply that such 'trends' do not appear, in specific ways, in
>other cultures, you are [obviously ;-(] right on this: I am aware of it,
>however I took the liberty to point to one specific "trend", in response
>to some nuts who overtly declared they are up for "provocations" on
>this newsgroup.
> Unfortunately you are such a latecomer in this thread which already
>began to be boring for me, so that I will stop right here.
>Regards,
>Mihai Caragiu
>P.S. Forget about "his friends".
>Good or bad, that's me... alone.
At this point will join Mr. Caragiu in putting an end to this.
Attacking or defending religions is not my favorite past time.
Rad
Calin Lazaroiu
Maybe it's worth mentioning some romanian `suprematism',too.
Namely,there is a bunch of `spiritual' publications in Romania and a
bunch of `enlightened' beings(followers of sri Bivolaru & company) who
claim that Romania is some sort of spiritual center of the world,that
the origin of the indo-european race is in the romanian part of the
Carpatian mountains,that the New Jerusalem will be at Bucharest(finding
similarities between Casa Poporului and Dala Lama's palace near Lhasa)
and other such revelations.Suddenly,romanians are the keepers of true
Christian belief and the people destined to show the spiritual light to
the world.Similar ideas can be found in Eugen Lovinescu's books.
All of these may be taken as proof of `suprematist' trends of the
Romanian culture,isn't it ?
The same type of argument works,even better,for Russia,with its
conspicuous record of suprematist orthodoxy.One may easily argue that
such such a trend is relevant and `characteristic' of the russian
people.
So,why not denounce everybody at the same time,since the argument works
very well for all of `us',`them' and `the others'.
For my part,I prefer to spend my time thinking more constructively.And
I don't see any reasons for adding bricks to the alrady hisgh walls
separating our cultures one from another.
Maybe the time has come that we try to be objective.It helps us
better,after all.
Calin
Mihai Caragiu
On Sat, 14 Dec 1996, Calin Lazaroiu wrote:
> Namely,there is a bunch of `spiritual' publications in Romania and a
> bunch of `enlightened' beings(followers of sri Bivolaru & company) who
> claim that Romania is some sort of spiritual center of the world,that
As far as I remeber, I did took a stand, sometime ago, against such
crap, disseminating the "wonders" of MISA over the scr.
Regards,
Mihai Caragiu
Aldrin Teganeanu
Calin Lazaroiu wrote:
> [...]
> Hear you have an answer from a romanian.I hesitated to write it,since > I expect to recieve some heated replies and I abhor reading such
> endless elucubrations lacking any logic and balance.
Calin,
Congratulations for your article. I was following this debate with
increasing impatience, and I was about to say something similar myself,
although in a harsher tone. Fortunately for me, you did it first. And
you did it very well.
all the best,
Aldrin
elena danielyan
Calin Lazaroiu <laza...@phys.columbia.edu> writes:
and leaving aside MISSSU and other sectants, why wouldn't
it be true? Or how YOU know it is not true?
Or rather it may not be true, because of bivolarus on one side,
and political korrekt citizens of the "gloubal village",
Or rather it may not be true, because of bivolarus on one side,
and politicaly korrekt citizens of the "gloubal village",
former romanians on the other ...
Elena
elena danielyan
Calin Lazaroiu <laza...@phys.columbia.edu> writes:
>Namely,there is a bunch of `spiritual' publications in Romania and a
>bunch of `enlightened' beings(followers of sri Bivolaru & company) who
>claim that Romania is some sort of spiritual center of the world,that
>the origin of the indo-european race is in the romanian part of the
>Carpatian mountains,that the New Jerusalem will be at Bucharest
and leaving aside MISSSU and other sectants, why wouldn't
it be true? Or how YOU know it is not true?
Or rather it may not be true, because of bivolarus on one side,
and political korrekt citizens of the "gloubal village",