Problema tiganeasca,
petre
Eu cind spun tigan,n-o spun la modul peiorativ,
o spun la modul romanesc...
Dupa revolutie a aparut in media romaneasca
termenul rromi,care pentru mine cel putin a fost
o noutate.Nu cunosc etimologia cuvintului si
de aceea nici nu fac comentarii.
Pe acest site problema evreiasca a fost dezbatuta
mai mult decit exhaustiv,cu rezultatele pe care le
cunoastem.Problema tiganeasca,am tratat-o cum
am tratat-o,dar ea ramine totusi o problema.
Aseara,pentru prima data aici,din cireada de voci
democrate a rasarit vocea d-lui Ouatu,tigan roman
din America care cu demnitate si-a aparat etnia,
demnitate scuzabila in contextul articolului respectiv.
Mi-ar face placere ca un tigan roman sa ne prezinte
istoria tiganilor in Romania,indeosebi robia si eliberarea
din robie savirsita de Mihail Kogalniceanu,si cum vad
ei rezolvarea problemelor sociale deosebit de delicate
din Romania de azi.
Un alt topic,ar putea fi tigani celebri romani.
Aveti cuvintul d-le Ouatu.
Basil
indatoriri, inca nu ti-ai dat seama ? si totul, in numele a ce a fost. ce a
fost ? cind? cit a fost ? si in special, daca a fost, de ce a fost ? la
aceste intrebari, nu mai vor sa raspunda ''cetatenii'' in chestiune !
aud?... din ce motive? poate ne raspund ei insisi... uite vezi, ti-am luat
calea si eu, ma lamentez degeaba...
Basil.
ps de unde scrii? caci vad ca ora ta este innainte cu trei fata de europa
centrala .
"petre" <pet...@sympatico.ca> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
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petre
Basil <Ba...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:9n7j2i$sdk$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
> petre, tu chiar crezi ca-ti va raspunde oul ? astia au numai drepturi, nu
si
> indatoriri, inca nu ti-ai dat seama ? si totul, in numele a ce a fost. ce
a
> fost ? cind? cit a fost ? si in special, daca a fost, de ce a fost ? la
> aceste intrebari, nu mai vor sa raspunda ''cetatenii'' in chestiune !
> aud?... din ce motive? poate ne raspund ei insisi... uite vezi, ti-am
luat
> calea si eu, ma lamentez degeaba...
> Basil.
nu crezi?
p.s.
te-am rugat sa-mi trimiti si mie firewall.se poate?
petre
Fredy
>
> > > Pe acest site problema evreiasca a fost dezbatuta
> > > mai mult decit exhaustiv,cu rezultatele pe care le
> > > cunoastem.
Care problemã cretinule? Cã nu mai aveti pe socotela cui mânca cãcat?
> > > Aseara,pentru prima data aici,din cireada de voci
> > > democrate a rasarit vocea d-lui Ouatu,tigan roman
> > > din America care cu demnitate si-a aparat etnia,
Etnia asta e deja bine amestecatã cu etnia româneascã si nu e nicio nenorocire
în asta.
Ca si în multe alte tãri problema unor minoritãti va dispare prin asimilare.
Tiganii sunt cum sunt din lipsa de asimilare economicã care cu încetul va
dispare.
Pânã atunci trebuie strâns din dinti.
>
> > > demnitate scuzabila in contextul articolului respectiv.
'scuzabilã' idiotule?
Ouatu
>Mi-ar face placere ca un tigan roman sa ne prezinte
>istoria tiganilor in Romania,indeosebi robia si eliberarea
>din robie savirsita de Mihail Kogalniceanu,
Dupa Kogalniceanu, se cunoaste soarta celor care au ramas in Romania. Putin
stiu de cei care nu au mai avut incredere intr-un viitor in Romania si au
emigrat in SUA imediat dupa dezrobire.
Azi sint cunoscuti in America ca si rromi Vlax. Sint bine integrati, nu exista
nici o deosebire intre ei si restul americanilor. Unul a fost chiar serif in
Dade County, la Miami.
Daca si-ar pune mintea cu o putoare ca Soare, acesta ar infunda puscariile
incercind pulile negrilor pentru masura curului daco-get.
Norocul lui este ca sint oameni ocupati si crestini, carora nu le place sa
striveasca nici macar o plosnita ca el.
On August 29, 2000 PBS Frontline aired "American Gypsy", a documentary that
made a brief appearance in NYC theaters last year. It features Jimmy
Marks, a Spokane based used car dealer, who was the first Rom in the
United States ever to challenge the racism of the dominant society, in
his specific case an illegal cop raid on his home.
As PBS tends to repeat shows, my advice is to look for it. This film
is a fascinating introduction into a world that tries to exist outside
of the world of the "gadjo" or non-Roma. They fear that assimilation
will destroy the unique Roma culture. These sorts of fears would
remind us of another "unassimilated" group, the Orthodox Jew, who
tries to co-exist as economic actors in gentile society, while
preserving their own customs and beliefs inside their community.
Although I doubt if such a history has ever been written, a Marxist
account of the Roma people would account for them in terms of what
Abram Leon called the "people-class" in "The Jewish Question." The
Jews, according to Leon, "constitute historically a social group with
a specific economic function. They are a class, or more precisely a
people-class." That economic function is tradesman. The Jew, from the
days of the Babylonian exile, have functioned as tradesmen. Their
location in the Mid-East facilitated commercial exchanges between
Europe and Asia. As long as the Jew served in this economic capacity,
the religious and national identity served to support his economic
function.
As a people-class Jews are able to maintain their ethnic identity no
matter what country they live in. The same thing is true of the Roma
who emigrated westward from India about a thousand years ago. Unlike
the Jews, their economic function was not related to trade but to
handicrafts which could be picked up and moved at the drop of a hat.
This included horse trading and repairing pots and pans. In modern
times these crafts have evolved into auto dealing, Jimmy Marks's
profession, and auto body repair. Also, Romas are some of the world's
greatest musicians who have made their mark on flamenco, jazz and
Eastern European folk music. (For a great introduction to Roma music,
I recommend the documentary "Latcho Drom" and the feature "Gadjo
Dilo", both by Roma director Tony Gatlif.)
According to Roma scholar Ian Hancock, who is at the University of
Texas and of Roma origin himself, the Romany term gadjo, or outsider,
is related to the Sanskrit "gajjha," which means civilian. In the
documentary Jimmy Marks is shown playing with his grand-daughter. As
he counts off from one to ten, the narrator and director Jasmine
Dellal (a British Jew) notes that the words for the numbers are the
same as they are in Sanskrit.
The Marks clan are part of the Romanian Gypsies, or Vlax, who migrated
in large numbers to the United States around the turn of the century
and for the same reason that Jews and other groups did: to flee
oppression. The Vlax had been enslaved in Romania for nearly 500
years. This fact more than any other explains the suspiciousness with
which they regard the outside world. When I was growing up in the
Catskill Mountains in the 1950s, my parents would often remark without
much prompting, "You can't trust the goyim." Roma, who despite being
murdered in equal numbers by the Nazis, have never been given the kind
of moral or financial reparations given to the Jews. They are still
despised and persecuted.
When we first meet Jimmy Marks, you notice two things right off the
bat. He is festooned in jewelry and he wears a tie with a likeness of
a McIlhenny Tabasco Sauce label in the middle, a totem for his success
in the business-oriented "gadjo" world. While out for a spin on a
country road one afternoon, he came across a train crash that had left
thousands of bottles of Tabasco sauce spilled across the ground. He
approached a representative of the wholesale company at the wreck and
offered to buy every bottle for a penny each. He then took the bottles
and sold them to restaurants and bars for 15 cents each. The money
helped him to launch his used car business.
The film is centered on Marks' legal battles with the Spokane police
who raided his home in 1986 in what amounts to a sting operation. They
tore gold-plated false fingernails from the women, snatched earrings
from a girl, searched a baby's diapers. They found $1.6 million in
cash, some sewn into quilts, and $160,000 in jewelry. There were items
from 35 different burglaries, the police said. The Marks claimed that
the money was deposits from Roma families who did not trust gadjo
banks. The documentary makes clear that the money was divided into
packets and clearly marked by family or clan name. This did not matter
to the cops who regarded all gypsies as thieves. (The word "gypsy" is
derived from Egyptian as Europeans had believed that the Roma
immigrants of 500 years ago were from Egypt rather than India.)
The substance of the film is about the Marks' 40 million dollar suit
and the many fascinating Roma customs they adhere to, which are
explained by Ian Hancock in his U. of Texas office. Despite attempts
to remain unassimilated, there is clear evidence that American society
is making inroads. You can see Jimmy Marks praying in a Born Again
Church, while his children sit around a restaurant complaining about
not being able to go to college. (Roma children are removed from
school immediately after the sixth grade to make sure they are not
tainted by gadjo culture. Jimmy Marks can not read or write a word in
English.)
The conclusion of the film deals with the surprising turn of events in
the legal case. I will let you find out about that for yourself.
Louis Proyect
Marxism List: www.marxmail.org
petre
foarte interesant!
Ma bucur ca te-am ghicit.
Stai cu noi,si nu te lasa impresionat
de unii care se dau tari in Resume,
ca sint empty pockets.
Sint convins ca poti sa mai si altceva
cel putin la fel de interesant.Poti?
Pina atunci Bine-ai venit p-acilea!
Ouatu <ou...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010906185315...@mb-md.aol.com...
petre
> centrala .
in croaziera pe Atlantic si Mediterana.
Misto,tataie merita 25 de sute plus 5sute de buzunar.
Se intelege ca Lucian
>Stai cu noi,si nu te lasa impresionat
>de unii care se dau tari in Resume,
>ca sint empty pockets.
BA IONICA BAAAA CINE PULA MEA SE DA TARE IN REZUME BAAAA CA E BINE DE PASTRAT
RELATIA CU RESPECTIVUL BAAAA CA PE CRIZA ASTA NU STII NICIODATA CIND AI NEVOIE
DEUN REZUME MESERIAS CA SATI GASESTI GIOB?
TRAIASCA PIZDA!
petre
stai linistit ca ionica are job...
in privinta lu ouatu,eu l-am mirosit
ca e tare,si eu am fost singurul care i-am
zis bine ai venit p-acilea,si ca sa ti-o spun
p-a dreapta,eu mai repede as iesi cu ouatu
la o bere decit c-un constipat ca fredy.
cu ouatu sint sigur ca m-as perpeli de ris,
ca e haios si-are singe-n carici.
Se intelege ca Lucian <domnul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010906204000...@mb-fp.aol.com...
corvinas
Grupul respectiv a parasit India candva ori in etape dealungul secolelor ca
nomazi. Ajungand pana in Spania si chiar Insulele Britanice ei s-au
identificat drept romany,sau roma iar localnicii i-au
poreclit:gitani,tzigani,etc.. Pe teritoriul azi Romania ei au fost bine
primiti de boieri care in muncile agricole i-au putut folosi ca "spargatori
de greve" in relatiile tense dintre boieri si taranii valahi,moldoveni.
Acesti tzigani-romani se disting in diverse branse de mestesugari,unii
caldarari,lingurari,spoitori (cositorire),etc. Deasemenea s-au aciuit ca
servitori la casele domnesti,lautari,etc. Numele lor de romi il au dinaintea
infiintarii Romei!
Relatiile cu poporul roman n-au fost bune.I-am tratat rau. Chiar in Ardeal
unde romanii erau erau ei insisi la coada ordinei sociale totusi continuau
sa-i injoseasca. Nu mai vorbim de deportarea tiganilor in timpul razboiului.
Deci nu pre au avut motive sa-i iubeasca pe tigani si acestia folosind
"Partidul" si acuma abilitatea lor de intrprinzatori au avut si acuma au
"the upper hand". Asta e.
"petre" <pet...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:CSDl7.4093$%G5.7...@news20.bellglobal.com...
DACIA LAN
>From: "petre" pet...@sympatico.ca
>Date: 9/7/01 12:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <AmVl7.30086$836.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>
>
>stai linistit ca ionica are job...
Ce fel de job, s-o speli pe hoasca la cur cu limba ?
>in privinta lu ouatu,eu l-am mirosit
>ca e tare,si eu am fost singurul care i-am
>zis bine ai venit p-acilea,
Adica ti-ai facut singur o urare,ca in rest stii ca toti se pisa si se caca in
gura ta oricate nume ti-ai lua.
AS,88
Se intelege ca Lucian
>lucica,
>stai linistit ca ionica are job...
FOARTE BINE!
>in privinta lu ouatu,eu l-am mirosit
>ca e tare,si eu am fost singurul care i-am
>zis bine ai venit p-acilea
OATUL E DE MULT PE SECEREA BAAAA!!!!!!!!
TRAIASCA PIZDA!
gogu
news:OPXl7.14248$KV3.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Ajungand pana in Spania si chiar Insulele Britanice ei s-au
> identificat drept romany,sau roma iar localnicii i-au
> poreclit:gitani,tzigani,etc..
........................
> Numele lor de romi il au dinaintea
> infiintarii Romei!
Hehehe:-)))) Sint curios sa vad ce zice bou ala fascisto-rasist de Mishu,
care zice ca numele de "rom" e o gaselnita recenta a celor politically
correct:-))) Forza Kivuleatza:-) Fa-ne sa ne prapadim de ris cu teoriile
tale zbanchii:-)
gogu
news:20010907050315...@mb-fp.aol.com...
Corect ;-)
> TRAIASCA PIZDA!
Gicabulla
>Date: 9/6/01 9:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <AmVl7.30086$836.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>
>
>lucica,
>stai linistit ca ionica are job...
>in privinta lu ouatu,eu l-am mirosit
>ca e tare,si eu am fost singurul care i-am
>zis bine ai venit p-acilea,si ca sa ti-o spun
>p-a dreapta,eu mai repede as iesi cu ouatu
>la o bere decit c-un constipat ca fredy.
>cu ouatu sint sigur ca m-as perpeli de ris,
>ca e haios si-are singe-n carici.
niciodata nu shtii cu cin' stai la taclale...
ienoi ooatu ie-npreajma do buna buca' da vreme. ionoca, ionica, te vaitai co ai
mica...
tz^-tz^ !! pa vremea aiea te chiema alfel. aaa?!
Gicabulla
si ie tzigan da sanki. mai rapidi...
C.M.T.
"Se intelege ca Lucian" <domnul...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20010906204000...@mb-fp.aol.com...
Dar bine lai mai ginit-o. Tipic.
cmt
C.M.T.
"Ouatu" <ou...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20010906185315...@mb-md.aol.com...
>
> Daca si-ar pune mintea cu o putoare ca Soare, acesta ar infunda puscariile
> incercind pulile negrilor pentru masura curului daco-get.
> Norocul lui este ca sint oameni ocupati si crestini, carora nu le place sa
> striveasca nici macar o plosnita ca el.
>
ca fiind nepericulos. Latratul nu este ceva pedepsibil in sua, maiales daca
ai si biletul de lasare la vatra dela un spital cu renume. :-)))
Basil
fain, mai ales acu' cind fiecare pusti este un ''hacker'', chestia fiind si
la moda !
sanatate !
Basil.
"petre" <pet...@sympatico.ca> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:axOl7.29052$836.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Basil
si aiurea , ar fi costat vreo 16.000 ff, pentru nimic si iarasi nimic !
nevasta a vrut, eu nu ! asa ca n-em dus in canare . a fost ce-i drept si mai
ieftin, dar nu regret ! daca ai rabdarea si vrei, poti sa-mi scrii citeva
amanunte despre cum a fost !
merci beacoup !
sante !
Basil.
"petre" <pet...@sympatico.ca> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:0jUl7.9542$%G5.9...@news20.bellglobal.com...