Mister of Delusion
Stephen Dancs
>"Wally Keeler" <poet...@idirect.com> wrote:
>>
>>However, it was not "falsely implied" to be filmed on the original location.
>>The article was quite clear about where it was filmed -- Cherry Beach.
>
> "On the day after filming began on Ararat -- Atom Egoyan's new film--
> notices appeared in several Toronto newspapers that Egoyan and his
> crew were on location, somewhere in Armenia."
Nee, ne, ne, ne, ne, ne, ne, hold your horses just for a sec: Wally's
initial posting after the Aug. 4, 2001 National Post article was pretty
clear that _despite_ some "notices [which] appeared in several Toronto
newspapers that Egoyan and his crew were on location, somewhwere in
Armenia"
The news couldn't have come as more of a surprise to Phillip Barker,
Egoyan's production designer, as he stood in a parking lot on Cherry
Beach, overlooking Toronto's harbour, supervising the construction of a
street in a city that was virtually destroyed more than 80 years ago.
ref.: http://nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20010804/636669.html
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=FqUa7.41032$D55.3...@news20.bellglobal.com
Alas, no one
(falsely) implied as it was filmed on the original location, but in
reality they just played around in the sand, -- in Red Deer.
ref.: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3b6d9fb1...@news.sprint.ca
as you initially asserted and as you try now to "back up" by spining it
around. ;-)
>>Furthermore, it was never filmed "in Red Deer" as you assert.
>
> If you could look at a map you'll see that these locations are not too
> far from each other at all. Further I never asserted that they filmed
> there, that was your assertion.
Well now, if you want us to take that route, than neither the "notices
[which] appeared in several Toronto" claim that Egoyan _filmed it_ on
location, "that was your assertion". You can't have it both ways pal, on
the one hand, claiming that with your "played around in the sand, -- in
Red Deer" you didn't mean to say that they filmed it in Red Deer, and on
the other assuming that "being on location, somewhere in Armenia" means
that they filmed it somewhwre in Armenia. ;=)
That for one, for a second one, how come that you claim that you didn't
mean to assert that they were filmed in Red Deer yet you feel it necessary
to point out that "these locations are not too far from each other", for
if you didn't mean to say that it was filmed in Red Deer, whadda heck does
it matter whether Red Deer is far or close to Cherry Beach or not, huh?
>>I am sorry that your ability to retain information from articles that you
>>read is declining.
>>
>>Perhaps you had a hallucination?
In fact, as an avid cyclist, I did cycle may way around the Cherry Beach
area past the parking lot where they started to errect last summer the
props that were to stand-in for the Turkish-Armenian street -- and which
must have come down either late June or early July of this year when they
suddenly "disapeared" and left me wonder how small indeed the parking lot
looks now that's empty for as long as the structures were there, you felt
like you were in a "small town" -- yet I never heard of Red Deer in the
proximity of the Cherry Beach area. Leslie St. spit, Ashbridge's Bay, and
Ontario Hydro's R.L. Hearn Generating Station yes, but Red Deer, where the
heck is Red Deer in the Cherry Beach area, huh? Or maybe Wally's above two
statements are right after all? ;-)
>I am disgusted about the way how the Armenian lobby tries to piggyback on
>the Holocaust.
You shouldn't, for, on the contrary, it just shows the Steven Katz'es of
this world that the Jewish holocaust his ilk would like to portray like
the "capital H" Holocaust in a "Do you think that _you've_ suffered?"
Holocaust "uniqueness" game
Whereas many other writers were willing to acknowledge that there had been
other genocides but only one Holocaust, Steven Katz, in a book of more
than seven hundred pages (the first of three projected volumes), argued
that even the word "genocide", if correctly understood, could be applied
only to the travail of European Jewry in World War II. It was on the basis
of this book that Katz was named head of the Washington Holocaust Museum
-- which suggests the appeal of the argument.
(Peter Novick, The Holocaust in American Life)
ref.: http://codoh.com/review/revhinamlife.html
is absolutely fatuous and
Can only be sustained by gerrymandering: deliberately singling out one or
more distinctive features of the event and trivializing or sweeping under
the rug those features it shares with other events to which it might be
compared.
ref.: ibidem
(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
--=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs http://come.to/sdancs Voicemail: +1 (416) 933-0394
bv...@ncf.ca Fax: +1 (240) 250-1108
http://www.ncf.ca/~bv561/ http://s.dancs.net
Wally Keeler
[snipped]
It was not just the denial of his Red Deer blunders, but also his inability
to provide a clear statement, and when he finally did -- fucked it up, as
follows:
Posting 1
Wally Keeler<poet...@idirect.com>posted:
On the day after filming began on Ararat -- Atom Egoyan's new film-- notices
appeared in several Toronto newspapers that Egoyan and his crew were on
location, somewhere in Armenia.
The news couldn't have come as more of a surprise to Phillip Barker,
Egoyan's production designer, as he stood in a parking lot on Cherry Beach,
overlooking Toronto's harbour, supervising the construction of a street in a
city that was virtually destroyed more than 80 years ago.
====================================
Posting 2
Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3b6c222f...@news.sprint.ca...
Phony as ever.
====================================
As anyone can see, Mr Horvath made no reference whatsoever -what- was "Phony
as ever." So...
====================================
Posting 3
Wally Keeler asked for clarification
What is?
Atom Egoyan?
Atom Egoyan's movie?
Phillip Barker?
Cherry beach?
What is phoney?
====================================
Posting 4
Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3b6c832a...@news.sprint.ca...
Cherry beach is not.
====================================
Well, we can see how forthcoming and informative Mr Horvath can be -- NOT.
Ask a simple question - get a circumventing answer. So...
====================================
Posting 5
Wally Keeler continued to seek clarification:
So I am correct to assume that you regard all the rest as phoney as ever?
====================================
Posting 6
Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3b6d62fa...@news.sprint.ca...
Only if your command of English allows so,
====================================
Once again, we witness Mr Horvath behaving like a politician and evading a
simple and direct answer to a simple and direct question. So...
====================================
Posting 7
Wally Keeler persists to obtain a simple answer:
It's still not a clear answer. From the list I made, am I correct to assume
that you regard all the items, except Cherry Beach, as phoney as ever?
====================================
Posting 8
Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3b6d7fa3...@news.sprint.ca...
OK. I'll spell it out for you
Y. E. S.
====================================
So there you have it. Gustav Horvath asserts that Atom Egoyan, his movie and
Phillip Barker. are "phony as ever."
What is interesting are the assertions which immediately follow this
sequence.
====================================
Posting 7
Wally Keeler wrote:
I only wanted to know if you regard Atom Egoyan as phoney as ever.
====================================
Posting 8
Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3b6d7fa3...@news.sprint.ca...
I was not referring to him as a person, but rather to the topic in question.
====================================
Interesting that at the top of Posting 8, Mr Horvath confirms that Atom
Egoyan is "phony as ever" then later in the same posting denies that he was
not referring to him, but to the topic in question. There was no reference
to any topic in the thread until this very moment. Furthermore, Mr Gustav,
admitted in Posting 8 that he had never seen Atom Egoyan's works. So...
====================================
Posting 9
Wally Keeler asked:
But you asserted Y. E. S. to the listing which included E's movies as being
"phony as ever"
====================================
Posting 10
Gustav Horvath <tu...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3b6d9fb1...@news.sprint.ca...
No. I was talking about the topic as I already indicated this.
====================================
Well we can see that Mr Horvath's logic is not linear.
Wally Keeler
news:9kq68l$bhn$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> Gustav Horvath (tu...@sprint.ca) writes:
> >I am disgusted about the way how the Armenian lobby tries to piggyback on
> >the Holocaust.
>
been
> other genocides but only one Holocaust, Steven Katz, in a book of more
> than seven hundred pages (the first of three projected volumes), argued
> that even the word "genocide", if correctly understood, could be applied
> only to the travail of European Jewry in World War II. It was on the
basis
> of this book that Katz was named head of the Washington Holocaust Museum
> -- which suggests the appeal of the argument.
> (Peter Novick, The Holocaust in American Life)
> ref.: http://codoh.com/review/revhinamlife.html
>
> is absolutely fatuous and
>
> Can only be sustained by gerrymandering: deliberately singling out one or
> more distinctive features of the event and trivializing or sweeping under
> the rug those features it shares with other events to which it might be
> compared.
> ref.: ibidem
The nail on the head. There was vigorous resistance to any inclusion of
details concerning the Roma in the Holocaust in the US Holocaust Memorial.
It was not until there was threatened Presidential intervention that Elie
Wiesel from the Board and permitted a Rom to also be included on the Board
of Directors. This same "uniqueness" is grossly manifested in the soo-to-be
constructed Holocaust Memorial in Berlin. This Memorial is being financed to
the tune of tens of millions of dollars by German taxpayers. The Jewish
lobby for this Memorial deliberately lobbied for the exclusion of the Roma
from this Memorial. Although it is touted as a memorial for the victims of
the Holocaust, the only victims worthy of memorialization are the Jews. The
irony is that the Roma/Sinti in Germany, via their taxes, contribute to the
construction of this memorial that deliberately excludes them. There are
many instances of Jewish lobby groups setting up the Holocaust as exclusive
to them -- they exclude all others, even though the smoke of Jews and Roma
that rose from the crematoria mingled in death. The article below, written
by Ian Hancock, (and some of his other writings) documents how the Roma were
targetted for extermination for the very same reasons that the Jews were
targetted, and had been targetted long before the Jews.
======================================
GENOCIDE OF THE ROMA IN THE HOLOCAUST
by Ian Hancock
Roma, commonly but inaccurately called Gypsies, were the only other
population besides the Jews who were targeted for extermination on racial
grounds in the Final Solution. They arrived in Europe about the year 1300
from India, which they had left nearly three centuries before as a military
population of mixed, non-Aryan origin assembled to fight the invading
Muslims. Their entry into Europe, via the Byzantine Empire, was also the
direct result of Islamic expansion.
As a non-Christian, non-white, Asian people possessing no territory in
Europe, Roma were outsiders in everybody's country. Romani culture also
ensured - as it still does - that a social distance be kept between Roma and
gadjé (non-Roma), and thus their separateness was further reinforced.
Romani people in Germany call themselves Sinti, while Zigeuner is the German
equivalent of "Gypsy." When the Nazis came to power in 1933, German laws
against them had already been in effect for hundreds of years. The
persecution of the Romani people began almost as soon as the first Roma
arrived in German-speaking lands because as outsiders, they were breaking
many of the Hanseatic laws which made it a punishable offence not to have a
permanent home or job, and not to be on the taxpayer's register. They were
also accused of being spies for the Muslims, whom few Germans had ever met
but about whom they had heard many frightening stories. The dark complexions
and non-Christian behavior and appearance of the Roma simply added to the
prejudice which was steadily growing. In 1721 Emperor Karl VI ordered the
extermination of all Roma everywhere; it was not illegal to murder a Rom,
and there were sometimes "Gypsy hunts," in which Roma were tracked down and
killed like wild animals. Forests were set on fire, to drive out any Roma
who might have been hiding there.
By the 19th Century, scholars in Germany and elsewhere in Europe were
writing about Roma and Jews as being inferior beings, and "the excrement of
humanity." This crystallized into specifically racist attitudes in the
writing of Knox, Tetzner, Gobineau and others. By the 1880s, Chancellor von
Bismarck reinforced some of the discriminatory laws, stating that Roma were
to be dealt with "especially severely" if apprehended. In or around 1890, a
conference on "The Gypsy Scum" was held in Swabia, at which the military was
empowered to keep Roma on the move. In 1899 Houston Chamberlaine's work The
Foundations of the 19th Century was published, which argued for the building
of a "newly shaped ... and ... especially deserving Aryan race." It was used
to justify the promotion of ideas about German racial superiority, and for
any oppressive action taken against members of "inferior" populations. In
that same year, the "Gypsy Information Agency" was set up in Munich under
the direction of Alfred Dillmann, which began cataloguing information on all
Roma throughout the German lands. The results of this were published in 1905
in Dillmann's Zigeuner-Buch, which laid the foundations for what was to
befall Roma in the Holocaust 35 years later.
The Zigeuner-Buch, nearly 350 pages long, consisted of three parts: first,
an introduction stating that Roma were a "plague" and a "menace" which the
German population had to defend itself against using "ruthless punishments,"
and which warned of the dangers of mixing the Romani and German gene pools.
The second part was a register of known Roma, giving genealogical details
and criminal record if any, and the third part was a collection of
photographs of those same people. Dillmann's "race mixing" later became a
central part of the Nuremberg Law in Nazi Germany.
In 1920, Karl Binding and Alfred Hoche published their book The Eradication
of Lives Undeserving of Life, using a phrase first coined by Richard Liebich
with specific reference to Roma nearly sixty years earlier. Among the groups
they considered "unworthy of life" were the "incurably mentally ill," and it
was to this group that Roma were considered to belong. Perceived Romani
"criminality" was seen as a transmitted genetic disease, though no account
was taken of the centuries of exclusion of the Roma from German society,
which made subsistence theft a necessity for survival. A law incorporating
the same phrase was put into effect just four months after Hitler became
Chancellor of the Third Reich.
During the 1920s, the legal oppression of Roma in Germany intensified
considerably, despite the egalitarian statutes of the Weimar Republic. In
1920 they were forbidden to enter parks and public baths; in 1925 a
conference on "The Gypsy Question" was held which resulted in laws requiring
unemployed Roma to be sent to work camps "for reasons of public security,"
and for all Roma to be registered with the police. After 1927, all Roma,
even children, had to carry identification cards, bearing fingerprints and
photographs. In 1929, The Central Office for the Fight Against the Gypsies
in Germany was established in Munich, and in 1933, just ten days before the
Nazis came to power, government officials in Burgenland called for the
withdrawal of all civil rights from the Romani people.
In September, 1935, Roma became subject to the restrictions of the Nuremberg
Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor, which forbade
intermarriage between Germans and "non-Aryans," specifically Jews, Roma and
people of African descent. In 1937, the National Citizenship Law relegated
Roma and Jews to the status of second-class citizens, depriving them of
their civil rights. Also in 1937, Heinrich Himmler issued a decree entitled
"The Struggle Against the Gypsy Plague," which reiterated that Roma of mixed
blood were the most likely to engage in criminal activity, and which
required that all information on Roma be sent from the regional police
departments to the Reich Central Office.
Between June 12th and June 18th 1938, Gypsy Clean-Up Week took place
throughout Germany which, like Kristallnacht for the Jewish people that same
year, marked the beginning of the end. Also in 1938, the first reference to
"The Final Solution of the Gypsy Question" appeared, in a document signed by
Himmler on December 8th that year.
In January, 1940, the. first mass genocidal action of the Holocaust took
place when 250 Romani children were murdered in Buchenwald, where they were
used as guinea-pigs to test the efficacy of the Zyklon-B crystals, later
used in the gas chambers. In June, 1940, Hitler ordered the liquidation of
"all Jews, Gypsies and communist political functionaries in the entire
Soviet Union."
On July, 31st 1941, Heydrich, chief architect of the details of the Final
Solution, issued his directive to the Einsatzkommandos to "kill all Jews,
Gypsies and mental patients." A few days later Himmler issued his criteria
for biological and racial evaluation, which determined that each Rom's
family background was to be investigated going back three generations. On
December 16th that same year, Himmler issued the order to have all Roma
remaining in Europe deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau for extermination. On
December 24th, Lohse gave the additional order that "The Gypsies should be
given the same treatment as the Jews." At a party meeting on September 14th,
1942, Justice Minister Otto Thierack announced that "Jews and Gypsies must
be unconditionally exterminated." On August 1st, 1944, four thousand Roma
were gassed and cremated in a single action at Auschwitz-Birkenau, in what
is remembered as Zigeunernacht.
Determining the percentage or number of Roma who died in the Holocaust
(called the Porrajmos, "paw-RYE-mos" in Romani, a word which means "the
Devouring") is not easy. Much of the Nazi documentation still remains to be
analyzed, and many murders were not recorded, since they took place in the
fields and forests where Roma were apprehended. There are no accurate figure
either for the prewar Romani population in Europe, though the Nazi Party's
official census of 1939 estimated it to be about two million, certainly an
underrepresentation. The latest (1997) figure from the U.S. Holocaust
Memorial Research Institute in Washington puts the number of Romani lives
lost by 1945 at "between a half and one and a half million." Since the end
of the Second World War, Germany's record regarding the Romani people has
been less than exemplary. Nobody was called to testify in behalf of the
Romani victims at the Nuremberg Trials, and no war crimes reparations have
ever been paid to Roma as a people. Today, neo-Nazi activity in Germany
makes the Roma its prime target of racial violence.
T'he United States too, did nothing to assist Roma during or following the
Holocaust. Only ten percent of the hundreds of millions of dollars made
available by the United Nations for the survivors, and which the U.S.
Government was given the responsibility of disbursing, was set aside for
non-Jews, and none of that found its way to the Romani survivors, who number
today about 5,000. Roma were not mentioned anywhere in the documentation of
the U.S. War Refugee Board, which was able to save the lives of over 200,000
Jews. When the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council was established in 1980, no
Roma were invited to participate, and it only has one Romani member today.
Roma are barely a part of its Museum even now, being located in a corner on
the third-floor set aside for "other victims."
Further reading
Hancock, Ian, 1989. "Gypsy history in Germany and neighboring lands: A
chronology leading to the Holocaust and beyond," in David Crowe and John
Kolsti, eds., The Gypsies of Eastern Europe, Armonk: E.C. Sharpe, pp. 11-30.
Kenrick, Donald, and Grattan Puxon, 1972. The Destiny of Europe's Gypsies.
London: Sussex University Press.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Excerpted from Encyclopedia of Genocide (1997) by Israel W. Charny (ed.)
Reprinted by the Patrin Web Journal with permission of the author, Ian
Hancock.
Posted 1 March 1997.
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@indirect.com> wrote:
>(...)
>Well we can see that Mr Horvath's logic is not linear.
No it is not.
As for you; try to get a life.
Wally Keeler
> On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:54:08 -0400, "Wally Keeler"
> <poet...@indirect.com> wrote:
>
> >(...)
> >Well we can see that Mr Horvath's logic is not linear.
>
> No it is not.
It is scatter-brained
> As for you; try to get a life.
I have a very good one, but thanks for your interest.
Stephen Dancs
>
> As I already said, I don't want to involved in this topic anymore, but
> regarding this it is my understanding that the Holocaust with capital
> H, became a "trademark" after a book was published with similar title
> in the late 70-s, if a remember the date right.
Acording to a Feb. 2000 Atlantic Monthly article by D. D. Guttenplan, "the
explosion of Holocaust discourse in the United States" changed in 1967,
when Israel became, to use US Cold War jargon, "our son of a bitch":
Just as the Cold War shaped American responses to the Holocaust, it also
shaped responses to Israel -- because until June of 1967 it was far from
clear that Israel was on "our" side. [...]
In their war for independence the Israelis were armed with Czech machine
guns; from 1956 to 1967 Israel bought the bulk of its weaponry from
France, a country whose discontent with American power actually led it to
withdraw from NATO's military command. And it was not until after the Six-Day
War that Norman Podhoretz declared that Israel was the religion of the
American Jews. [...] All that changed after 1967. Novick doesn't draw an
explicit connection between Israel's debut as America's strategic asset in
the Middle East and the explosion of Holocaust discourse in the United
States, but what he does say is suggestive. For one thing, the image of
Jews as military heroes effaced "the stereotype of weak and passive
victims, which [had] inhibited Jewish discussion of the Holocaust." More
important, in Cold War terms Israel was now unambiguously on America's
team. And if circumstances made it easier for American Jews to talk about
the Holocaust, to draw on the "moral capital" that Israel had miraculously
accumulated, that was just as well. For in its determination to hold on to
the territories gained in battle, Israel began to forfeit whatever
sympathy it had attracted as an underdog.
ref.: http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/trial/guttenplan/atlm3.html
http://theatlantic.com/issues/2000/02/
http://theatlantic.com/issues/2000/02/00277.htm
> It is a convention, just like the usage of the word Antisemitism.
> No one includes the Arabs, although they're also Semites, and their
> number is more significant.
My issue with the capital H Holocaust is though, that it seems to me that
lately, a few Jewish (and some not so Jewish) persons in positions of
influence, for political and various other reasons, would like to see it
"monopolized" (with its perceived "guilt leverage") exclusively for the
WWII sufferings of the Jews, when in fact, the mass slaughter included
many other non-Aryan people and happened to many other people before and
after WWII, too. Alas, no group can seriously claim "exclusive rights" on
The Holocaust.
> If it is right or not, I can't tell.
> Try Gilgames, he is more into this.
I'm of the "wie es eigentlich gewesen sei" Leopold von Ranke school of
historiography and therefore think that one should always tell it "as it
actually was", w/o any exagerations, fabrications, omissions, and whatnot.
> The uniqueness of the Holocaust is based on the fact that whole Europe
> (perhaps the whole world) was supposed to be Judenfrei, eventually.
> This shows that the H. was based on pure racism.
So was the American Indian holocaust preceeding it and the WWII holocausts
of various non-Aryan people (Gypsies, Slavs, to name two) that run
parallel with the Jewish holocaust, or those were based on some other kind
of racial superiority theories, huh? ;-)
> Also the word "holocaust" originally had to do with "destruction by
> fire".
To use your definition then, we shall discount everyone shot and dropped
into mass graves by the Einsatzgruppen from the total massacred, shan't
we? ;-)
As a note, I personally prefer the term "genocide", with its "physical"
and "cultural" variants, to "holocaust" which I find more appropiate for
"nuclear holocaust" kind of contexts while the Jewish term "Shoa" could be
used more frequently for refering specifically to the Jewish holocaust.
> These factors were present in the case of nazis, but were absent in
> the case of the Ottomans or Young Turks.
No kidding? What about whole Armenian villages burned to the ground,
Armenians herded into churches and caves that were set on fire, etc,
weren't they burnt? ;=)
Or you rather wanted to say that it was a Muslim v. Christian and not a
racial thing, in which case, may I say that you've missed the whole point
of the Armenian and Jewish genocides, whose real cause was the perception
by the majority of being "outsmarted" *1 by a economically more successful
minority. There was the real rub of the Ottomans & the Nazis,
intellectually 2nd rate people who could challenge the Armenian & Jewish
societal elite, respectively, only by confronting them physically, were
they were more numerous and the "rules" require lil' intellectual stuff,
if any at all. The racial, religious and whatnot "motivations" aren't but
the "carrier" used to disguise the intellectual & economic inferiority
complex, for the general rule is, wherever a succesful minority is
perceived to "rule" the less successful majority, it's just a matter of
time before the shit hits the fan: that's what happened with the
East-Indian minority in various central African states, the Tutsi minority
in Rwanda, the Chinese minority of Indonesia & Malaysia, and so on, alas,
not only to the Armenians of Turkey or the Jews of Nazi Germany. :(
If you think that the British gave up India and the Americans civil rights
to the blacks because they were "shamed" into doing it by Messrs. Gandhi &
Martin Luther King's "peaceful" protests, respectively, and not 'caz they
thought that the Indians were ready to bust their asses and the blacks
"burn down downtown LA" in case it need be, then you do so at your peril.
It's violence, the threat of violence, or the readiness to counter
violence that makes the world go 'round and if you thought that the human
"civilization" already passed the primitive "violence phase" *2, again,
you do so at your own peril, for in fact, historically speaking, we are
back to very uncertain times which follow the recent end of the Cold War
that was the result of WWII whose roots were set by the war-to-end-all
-wars, WWI, which in turn was... and so it goes for the moment. :(
1.) Of course, an "outsmarting" not due to the fact that the Jews or
Armenians are "smart people" in general, for they are not, only some of
them are just _smarter then_ the intellectually 2nd rate Hitler, Stalin &
Co.s aching to take away their "jobs", alas, it was easy for Jews to
outsmart the uneducated masses of Eastern Europeans kept in feudal
servitude conditions by their absolutist masters, the Germans, who, when
it comes down to the majority of 'em, aren't but a bunch of "techies"
really, of the Americans of NYC, the "fair play" English and French
"bouffons" not to even speak. And when one sees the "wonderful" conditions
in Muslim countries even as the rest of humanity writes 2001 AD, wha' can
I say man, you really need to be a "genius" to outsmart those guys,
hehehe... ;=)
2.)
So wie unsere Vorfahren den Boden, auf dem wir heute leben, nicht vom
Himmel geschenkt erhielten, sondern durch Lebenseinsatz erkämpfen mußten,
so wird auch uns in Zukunft den Boden und damit das Leben für unser Volk
keine göttliche Gnade zuweisen, sondern nur die Gewalt eines siegreichen
Schwertes. (Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. II, 1927, chapter 14, p. 741)
ref.: http://abbc.com/historia/hitler/mkampf/ger/2-14.htm
> For this reason I don't see a comparison at all.
Hmm, from the way you tried to spin around the Red Deer-Cherry Beach
issue, what makes me think that there's barely a faint hope for you to
"see" anything? ;-)
> On the otherhand I found it also stupid, when some Jews
> "tullihegte'k" so to speak, and attacked Farley Mowat because
> he was speaking about the (lower cased) holocaust of the seals.
So then, what's your problem with an Armenian-Canadian like Atom Egoyan
trying to make a movie about the Armenian holocaust and various Armenian
groups trying to popularize their holocaust before it's airbrushed out
from history, for it's not like it'll take something away from the Am.
Indian, Jewish, Cambodian, Rwandan, etc. genocides, or is it?
Gustav Horvath
wrote:
>
> War that Norman Podhoretz declared that Israel was the religion of the
> American Jews. [...]
To be perfectly honest I don't give a shit about what American Jews do
or not do.
>> The uniqueness of the Holocaust is based on the fact that whole Europe
>> (perhaps the whole world) was supposed to be Judenfrei, eventually.
>> This shows that the H. was based on pure racism.
>
>So was the American Indian holocaust preceeding it and the WWII holocausts
>of various non-Aryan people (Gypsies, Slavs, to name two) that run
>parallel with the Jewish holocaust, or those were based on some other kind
>of racial superiority theories, huh? ;-)
Racism yes, but not total extermination in any of these
cases to my best knowlegde. The Gypsies maybe, but you know who
knows this better.
>To use your definition then, we shall discount everyone shot and dropped
>into mass graves by the Einsatzgruppen from the total massacred, shan't
>we? ;-)
What I was saying all the quoted elements were present in the case of
the Jews in general, if some of those were not present
in some cases that doesn't change the outlook of the whole.
>As a note, I personally prefer the term "genocide", with its "physical"
>and "cultural" variants, to "holocaust" which I find more appropiate for
>"nuclear holocaust" kind of contexts while the Jewish term "Shoa" could be
>used more frequently for refering specifically to the Jewish holocaust.
Be it.
I don't mind at all, to me it has no significance, I am not Jewish,
and have no Jewish relatives. As I said, I saw it as a convention.
>No kidding? What about whole Armenian villages burned to the ground,
>Armenians herded into churches and caves that were set on fire, etc,
>weren't they burnt? ;=)
I have no knowledge of those.
Many things were circulated, do remember the story about the Hun
that ate Belgian children alive, crucified Canadian soldiers etc., and
Turkey was an ally of Germany.
I also read one time, that the gas chambers were not invented by the
Nazis, but by the Turks who hoarded the victims into caves, sealed the
entrances and introduced swamp gas into the cave.
This cave story is even better then yours, if you wish you can believe
in that also.
>Or you rather wanted to say that it was a Muslim v. Christian and not a
>racial thing, in which case, may I say that you've missed the whole point
>of the Armenian and Jewish genocides,
No, it was a political thing. A war of independence and its
suppression.
I mean no offence but I think you're not very familiar with the Turks
vs. Armenians issue.
The Armenians similarly to other nations got the 19 th century idea
about nationalism and nation state, which they accidentally never had
in the last 2000 yrs or so.
They were not powerful enough to pursue this alone so they got
themselves allied with imperial Russia, Turkey's arch enemy.
Some other Armenians put their luck on the x-tian card vs. the
"unbelievers" while others similarly to the activities of the Czechs
of the time tried to find new friends in the West.
I must emphasize the word "some" because the same time
some Armenians served in government positions (rather high ones
one might ad) and were never discriminated against, neither did those
who were lucky enough to stay out of the area of the rebellion.
I am sorry, but my time is limited, perhaps read upon.
>whose real cause was the perception
>by the majority of being "outsmarted" *1 by a economically more successful
>minority. There was the real rub of the Ottomans & the Nazis,
>intellectually 2nd rate people who could challenge the Armenian & Jewish
>societal elite, respectively, only by confronting them physically, were
>they were more numerous and the "rules" require lil' intellectual stuff,
>if any at all. The racial, religious and whatnot "motivations" aren't but
>the "carrier" used to disguise the intellectual & economic inferiority
>complex, for the general rule is, wherever a succesful minority is
>perceived to "rule" the less successful majority, it's just a matter of
>time before the shit hits the fan:
Nice theory, it is too bad, that it never happened.
At least not in Turkey.
>that's what happened with the
>East-Indian minority in various central African states,
It is close(r) but no cigar.
>the Tutsi minority in Rwanda,
Not at all.
T. and H. are not ethnic categories but economical.
H. became T. when they loose their financial means,
and some T. might became H. when they save up enough.
It did happen rather frequently.
I admit to my ignorance,
I forgit which is which, but this is how the story goes.
>the Chinese minority of Indonesia & Malaysia, and so on,
This similar to the case of East-Indians in Africa, but money often
become a mean for exploitation, this has nothing to do with race.
The Nazis on the other hand persecuted even the poorest Jews in the
backwoods of Poland as well.
>If you think that the British gave up India and the Americans civil rights
>to the blacks because they were "shamed" into doing it by Messrs. Gandhi &
>Martin Luther King's "peaceful" protests, respectively, and not 'caz they
>thought that the Indians were ready to bust their asses and the blacks
>"burn down downtown LA" in case it need be, then you do so at your peril.
You're right about that.
>
>1.) Of course, an "outsmarting" not due to the fact that the Jews or
>Armenians are "smart people" in general, for they are not,
I think the most Jews are rather smart, (if one is stupid, than he is
really that), dilligent in what they're doing and not least they have
a pretty good system in place that they could draw upon would it
become needed.
Armenians are somewhat different, but not to the opposing end.
If you don't believe me, some Rumanians perhaps will quote
the bon mot, about Jews and Armenians
>nly some of
>them are just _smarter then_ the intellectually 2nd rate Hitler, Stalin &
>Co.s aching to take away their "jobs", alas, it was easy for Jews to
>outsmart the uneducated masses of Eastern Europeans kept in feudal
>servitude conditions by their absolutist masters,
Well, I don't think that many are afraid these days that the Jews take
away *their jobs*; you know the one from Hofi about the Jewish miners?
>the Germans, who, when
>it comes down to the majority of 'em, aren't but a bunch of "techies"
>really,
I was always amazed by the "love-hate" relationship that the J. & G.
have.
>"bouffons" not to even speak. And when one sees the "wonderful" conditions
>in Muslim countries even as the rest of humanity writes 2001 AD, wha' can
>I say man, you really need to be a "genius" to outsmart those guys,
>hehehe... ;=)
I don't think that it has to do with smartness, after all Muslim
countries were far superior to the West for ca. 1000 yrs.
Now if you say that the genes of those people all went into recession,
that is something else.
>Hmm, from the way you tried to spin around the Red Deer-Cherry Beach
>issue, what makes me think that there's barely a faint hope for you to
>"see" anything? ;-)
I didn't try.
It was your friend, the big spinner.
I am not a spinner at all.
I get my kicks elsewhere.
>So then, what's your problem with an Armenian-Canadian like Atom Egoyan
>trying to make a movie about the Armenian holocaust and various Armenian
>groups trying to popularize their holocaust before it's airbrushed out
>from history,
Let us say I am also for the "wie es eigentlich gewesen sei" Leopold
von Ranke ('s) school.
>historiography and therefore think that one should always tell it "as it
>actually was", w/o any exagerations, fabrications, omissions, and whatnot.
Exactly.
>(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
> "soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
If you have further interest for the Armenian-Turkish relations,
pehaps it would be more beneficial to cross-post to s.c.turkish
instead of s.c.r.
I already spent about a yr. discussing this and frankly don't have any
inclination to start it again.
Gustav
Wally Keeler
> >issue, what makes me think that there's barely a faint hope for you to
> >"see" anything? ;-)
>
> I didn't try.
> It was your friend, the big spinner.
> I am not a spinner at all.
Bullshit. You brought up the Red Deer issue in the first place, and until
then, no a single article made any reference to Red Deer. It was simply your
scatterbrained logic.
> I get my kicks elsewhere.
By swapping one person with another person because they don't fit your
agenda.
Stephen Dancs
>
>> War that Norman Podhoretz declared that Israel was the religion of the
>> American Jews. [...]
>
> To be perfectly honest I don't give a shit about what American Jews do
> or not do.
The point's not whether you give a shit about it or not, but a possible
explanation for the current Holocaustomania that "erupted" from about
1967.
>>So was the American Indian holocaust preceeding it and the WWII holocausts
>>of various non-Aryan people (Gypsies, Slavs, to name two) that run
>>parallel with the Jewish holocaust, or those were based on some other kind
>>of racial superiority theories, huh? ;-)
>
> Racism yes, but not total extermination in any of these
> cases to my best knowlegde. The Gypsies maybe, but you know who
> knows this better.
It looks like your "best knowledge" sucks big time, pal.
>>To use your definition then, we shall discount everyone shot and dropped
>>into mass graves by the Einsatzgruppen from the total massacred, shan't
>>we? ;-)
>
> What I was saying all the quoted elements were present in the case of
> the Jews in general, if some of those were not present
> in some cases that doesn't change the outlook of the whole.
All of your "quoted elements" were present in the case of all non-Aryans
whether you like to admit it or not. And when one compares the ca. 1.3
million Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen to the 1.4 million Jews + others
(maybe even less) killed at Auschwitz, out goes the holo-causton ("by
fire") in "the outlook of the whole" (this not to mention the fact that
the loss of life wasn't by fire, as in Hiroshima, Nagasaki or carpet
bombed German & Japanese cities, only corpses "died" by fire at the death
camps.
>>No kidding? What about whole Armenian villages burned to the ground,
>>Armenians herded into churches and caves that were set on fire, etc,
>>weren't they burnt? ;=)
>
> I have no knowledge of those.
>
> Many things were circulated, do remember the story about the Hun
> that ate Belgian children alive, crucified Canadian soldiers etc., and
> Turkey was an ally of Germany.
Exactly, yet, nevertheless, German ambassador Count von Wolff-Metternich,
wrote his government in 1916:
"The Committee [of Union and Progress] demands the annihilation of the
last remnants of the Armenians and the [Ottoman] government must bow to
its demands."
ref.: http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
"In its attempt to carry out its purpose to resolve the Armenian question
by the destruction of the Armenian race, the Turkish government has
refused to be deterred neither by our representations, nor by those of the
American Embassy, nor by the delegate of the Pope, nor by the threats of
the Allied Powers, nor in deference to the public opinion of the West
representing one half of the world."
--Count Wolff-Metternich, German Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire
July 10, 1916, cable to the German Chancellor
ref.: http://aaainc.org/genocideintro.htm
During my stay in Germany (1989-92), I also remember reading a fairly
detailed article on the Armenian genocide that appeared in "Der Spiegel"
in which the cables, diaries, memoirs, etc. of countless representatives
of the German government in Turkey were widely quoted. It caused a huge
uproar among the Turks of Germany who lined up the newspaper stands early
in the morning to buy up all the existing copies so as to prevent the rest
of us from reading them; whatmore, the issues destined for Turkey had the
Armenian genocide pages glued together, again, to impede their reading.
> I also read one time, that the gas chambers were not invented by the
> Nazis, but by the Turks who hoarded the victims into caves, sealed the
> entrances and introduced swamp gas into the cave.
>
> This cave story is even better then yours, if you wish you can believe
> in that also.
There's no simpler method of mass killing than amassing people in close
enclosures and then expose them to poisonous gases, I don't know what you
find so unbelivable about this method, on the contrary, the "problem"
isn't with the production of the corpses but with _their disposal_ and
it's rather the "3.5kg of coke/corpse" at Auszhwitz (read reduce nr. of
corpses cremated by an order of magnitude at the very least) that makes me
scratch my head than the number of mg of HCN/person needed to produce a
corpse. ;-)
And what's so hard to believe about being burned alive in a church for
example? One needs to look no further than the July 10, 1941 Jedwabne
(northeastern Poland) massacre in which some 200-1,600 (depending on whom
you ask) Jews were burned alive by their Polish neighbours in a village
barn.
>>Or you rather wanted to say that it was a Muslim v. Christian and not a
>>racial thing, in which case, may I say that you've missed the whole point
>>of the Armenian and Jewish genocides,
>
> No, it was a political thing. A war of independence and its
> suppression.
>
> I mean no offence but I think you're not very familiar with the Turks
> vs. Armenians issue.
>
> The Armenians similarly to other nations got the 19 th century idea
> about nationalism and nation state, which they accidentally never had
> in the last 2000 yrs or so.
Well, if the nation state is a "19 th century idea" (which it is, for
before it, class differences between the rulers and their subjects was the
norm), how were they supposed to have it for "the last 2000 yrs", huh?
Methinks you're full of shit again. ;=)
> They were not powerful enough to pursue this alone so they got
> themselves allied with imperial Russia, Turkey's arch enemy.
>
> Some other Armenians put their luck on the x-tian card vs. the
> "unbelievers" while others similarly to the activities of the Czechs
> of the time tried to find new friends in the West.
>
> I must emphasize the word "some" because the same time
> some Armenians served in government positions (rather high ones
> one might ad) and were never discriminated against, neither did those
> who were lucky enough to stay out of the area of the rebellion.
Well, that's not what an Armenian genocide fact sheet and common sense
tell me:
The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide
and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone."
The Armenian Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia [present-day
Turkey], and not just in the so-called "war zone."
Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American ambassador to the Ottoman
Empire, sent a cable to the U.S. State Department in 1915:
"Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing
and from harrowing reports of eye witnesses [sic] it appears that a
campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of
reprisal against rebellion."
ref.: http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
I understand that, just like with the Jewish holocaust, for political and
other raison d'Etat's, some gross exagerations might have slipped in, but
just 'caz "only 1.4 million (or maybe even less) died at Aschwitz instead
of 4 million" or,
[Hans Mommsen] belongs to a group of scholars sometimes labelled
`structuralists' or `functionalists', who generally try to play down the
role of Hitler, the individual, in initiating the Holocaust, even
describing him as a `weak dictator' content for crucial initiatives to be
taken by others. The Holocaust in their view was not the result of some
pre-formulated plan, but rather it emerged from a series of ad hoc
decisions, many of them made at lower levels of administration, and
largely conditioned by unforeseen circumstances.
ref.: http://findarticles.com/cf_0/m1373/n9_v48/21104449/print.jhtml
the fact that many innocent people died still remains a fact just as a
fact remains too, that, "weak dictator" or not, w/o papa Adolf there'd
have been a lot lower body count in Europe.
Unfortunately, just as with the current Jewish and German persecution
machinery that would arrest anyone non-Jewish for making the slightest
comments about the "official" Holocaust line, with the current Turkish
machinery in place, I doubt that anyone can get to the bottom of the
Armenian thing. :(
> Nice theory, it is too bad, that it never happened.
> At least not in Turkey.
Yeah, yeah, they had to put down a "rebellion" of old men, women &
children, just as the Eisatzgruppen had to put down Bolshevik old men,
women & children. ;-)
>>that's what happened with the East-Indian minority in various central
>>African states,
>
> It is close(r) but no cigar.
Maybe then you'd elinghten us with your "cigar." ;-)
>>the Tutsi minority in Rwanda,
>
> Not at all.
> T. and H. are not ethnic categories but economical.
> H. became T. when they loose their financial means,
> and some T. might became H. when they save up enough.
> It did happen rather frequently.
> I admit to my ignorance,
> I forgit which is which, but this is how the story goes.
Man , you're so full of shit:
Hutu: a member of a Bantu-speaking people of Rwanda and Burundi
Tutsi: a member of a Nilotic people of Rwanda and Burundi
ref.: http://m-w.com
Even biologicaly, according to the newspaper reports I've read, the Tutsis
are taller and fairer-skinned than the Hutus and are also considered
intellectually superior to them.
>>the Chinese minority of Indonesia & Malaysia, and so on,
>
> This similar to the case of East-Indians in Africa, but money often
> become a mean for exploitation, this has nothing to do with race.
> The Nazis on the other hand persecuted even the poorest Jews in the
> backwoods of Poland as well.
So did the Ottomans, whatmore, right int he "war zone" Constantinople:
Also on that day [April 24, 1915] in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest
Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes.
ref.: http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html
And if you think that "exploitation through money" didn't play any role in
the Jewish holocaust whatsoever
The scale of Germany's Jewish problem is revealed by an unpublished
manuscript by Hitler s predecessor as chancellor, Dr. Heinrich Brüning.
Writing in American exile in 1943 he stated that after the inflation
there was only one major German bank not controlled by Jews, some of them
"utterly corrupt". In 1931 he had brought the banks under government su-
pervision, and had had to keep the government's findings of dishonesty in
the banks secret "for fear of provoking antisemitic riots."
(David Irving, Hitler's War, April 13, 2001 version, p. xxiv)
ref.: http://focal.org/books/hitler/HW1.pdf
and that the actions of the Nazis were completely independent of the
behavior of the Jews, which btw is also a major
Part of a common tendency among Jewish historians of Judaism to ignore,
minimize, or rationalize the role of Jewish behavior in producing
anti-Semitism.
ref.: http://csulb.edu/~kmacd/media_flyer.htm
then you can dream on, pal. ;-)
>>If you think that the British gave up India and the Americans civil rights
>>to the blacks because they were "shamed" into doing it by Messrs. Gandhi &
>>Martin Luther King's "peaceful" protests, respectively, and not 'caz they
>>thought that the Indians were ready to bust their asses and the blacks
>>"burn down downtown LA" in case it need be, then you do so at your peril.
>
> You're right about that.
It's not me who's right about that, but common sense which says that if
one can't back up his demands with brute force if need be, then that one's
toast, baby. ;-)
>>1.) Of course, an "outsmarting" not due to the fact that the Jews or
>>Armenians are "smart people" in general, for they are not,
>
> I think the most Jews are rather smart, (if one is stupid, than he is
> really that), dilligent in what they're doing and not least they have
> a pretty good system in place that they could draw upon would it
> become needed.
Doesn't seem to have helped them much in Auschwitz, though. And they were
indeed "geniuses" to have settled their bloody asses in Palestine, too,
wha' can I say man!! (And by that I don't mean only the "before you buy a
house, search out the neighbours" thing -- if you know how that ol' joke
with the Hungarian n' the Gypsy buying two identical neighbouring houses
together goes, i.e. -- in mind.) ;-)
Add to that the fact that, for example, denying God can get you a one year
stint in an Israeli jail (not to mention their strict marriage rules that
allow only Orthodox rabbis to perform weddings which forbid interfaith
marriage, alas, no civil marriage in Israel please, we are a dummocracy)
and wha' can I say man, they are truly a very intelligent bunch. Their
only luck is that the Americans and Arafat are even more "intelligent"
than 'em. You can ask any secular Jew about these things, too. ;-)
>>only some of them are just _smarter then_ the intellectually 2nd rate
>>Hitler, Stalin & Co.s aching to take away their "jobs", alas, it was easy
>>for Jews to outsmart the uneducated masses of Eastern Europeans kept in
>>feudal servitude conditions by their absolutist masters,
>
> Well, I don't think that many are afraid these days that the Jews take
> away *their jobs*; you know the one from Hofi about the Jewish miners?
I put "jobs" between quotation marks 'caz obviously I wasn't referring to
the low intelligence requiring toiling jobs in the mines or agriculture,
but the ones were you need a lil' bit of brains, like doctors, lawyers,
writers, artists, journalists, scientists, and the likes, which, in any
society are, if not in short, then at least in a very limitted supply, and
which in normal societies usually -- yet even there not always -- go to
1st-rate intellectuals, while in abnormal times (see Stalinism, Fascism,
Nazism, just to name a few) go to the 2n-rate bunch who in normal times
doesn't stand a chance to compete intellectually with the 1st-rate minds,
thus the need to lower the "competition" and turn it into a physical one
(the only one the 2nd-rater can "win"), and for promotion based on the
"knowledge" of the orthodoxy of the day.
And when you look at the "competition" the Jew had to put up with in
Eastern Europe, Germany, France, England & USA, or the Armenian in Turkey,
it's not like he needed to be a genius to outsmart those poor suckers. ;-)
>>the Germans, who, when it comes down to the majority of 'em, aren't but a
>>bunch of "techies" really,
>
> I was always amazed by the "love-hate" relationship that the J. & G.
> have.
Well, it doesn't take much intelligence to be a "bauern" or a "techie", so
of course that the Jew loves 'em. As Peter Ustinov used to say, "Die
letzte Stimme, die man hört, bevor die Welt explodiert, wird die Stimme
eines Experten sein, der sagt: 'Das ist technisch unmöglich!" (The last
words one will hear before the world will blow up will be that of a
"techie" saying 'This is technically impossible!'"). :))
Or as Paul Newman put it in "The Sting", "you can't be a successful con
man in a town were everyone is a con man" or something along that line.
;-)
> I don't think that it has to do with smartness, after all Muslim
> countries were far superior to the West for ca. 1000 yrs.
> Now if you say that the genes of those people all went into recession,
> that is something else.
Depends also on the meaning of what one understands as "superior", for if
one speaks in the terms of the Renaissance's and Enlightenment's rational
humanism, they were not, they were at almost the level they are at now, it
was Europe that was in the Dark Ages, but once the Italian Renaissance set
the works leading to the Enlightenment and then to the industrial
revolution in motion, they were toast. And will be toast if they don't
smarten up. ;-)
>>Hmm, from the way you tried to spin around the Red Deer-Cherry Beach
>>issue, what makes me think that there's barely a faint hope for you to
>>"see" anything? ;-)
>
> I didn't try.
> It was your friend, the big spinner.
> I am not a spinner at all.
> I get my kicks elsewhere.
Bullshit, you claimed that the article tried to imply that the movie was
shot on location in Armenia, when in fact, it did exactly the opposite. If
this is how you "recollect" the matter when the Google/DejaNews record is
pretty clear on that, I wonder about your intellectual honesty in other
matters. :(
>>So then, what's your problem with an Armenian-Canadian like Atom Egoyan
>>trying to make a movie about the Armenian holocaust and various Armenian
>>groups trying to popularize their holocaust before it's airbrushed out
>>from history,
>
> Let us say I am also for the "wie es eigentlich gewesen sei" Leopold
> von Ranke ('s) school.
No you're not, and the "[National Post] article claimed that "Ararat" was
filmed on location in Armenia" affair shows your true colors: those of a
spinner and bullshiter whose word is not worth the paper it's written on.
:(
> If you have further interest for the Armenian-Turkish relations,
> pehaps it would be more beneficial to cross-post to s.c.turkish
> instead of s.c.r.
SCR is homebase, and your s.c.turkish wish hereby fulfilled. ;-)
(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
--=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs
>
>>Bullshit. You brought up the Red Deer issue in the first place, and until
>>then, no a single article made any reference to Red Deer. It was simply your
>>scatterbrained logic.
>
> Godforsaken place makes not much difference at all.
>
> Being in Armenia or any of the above makes quite a big difference.
Sure it does, yet the fact is that the National Post article Wally posted
never claimed that "Ararat" was filmed in Armenia, only you claimed that
the article claimed that it was shot there, and by keeping up with this
spin, you just once again show your intellectual caliber. ;-)
08-04 08:29:51 PST WK posts thread originating article:
Masters of illusion
An exclusive visit behind the scenes of Atom Egoyan's new film, Ararat
ref.: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=FqUa7.41032$D55.3...@news20.bellglobal.com
http://nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20010804/636669.html
08-05 13:01:58 PST GH says:
For one thing it was (falsely) implied as it was filmed on the original
location, but in reality they just played around in the sand, -- in Red
Deer.
ref.: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3b6d9fb1...@news.sprint.ca
08-05 20:00:16 PST WK tells the guy that:
However, it was not "falsely implied" to be filmed on the original
location. The article was quite clear about where it was filmed -- Cherry
Beach.
ref.: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7Hnb7.5563$5c.3...@news20.bellglobal.com
08-05 21:12:06 PST GH still insists that it did by blatantly quoting
partially so as to spin the matter in his favour:
"On the day after filming began on Ararat -- Atom Egoyan's new film--
notices appeared in several Toronto newspapers that Egoyan and his crew
were on location, somewhere in Armenia."
ref.: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3b6e1679...@news.sprint.ca
2001-08-06 04:01:01 PST WK insists that it did not:
The article (Masters of Illusion) was quite clear about where it was
filmed -- Cherry Beach.
ref.: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=TJub7.7901$5c.4...@news20.bellglobal.com
and now again GH tries to spin it, saying that's WK that's bullshitting
for the poor baby "only" confused Cherry Beach with Red Deer, as if that
were the _main_ friggin' issue:
> Your bullshit, I made a minor mistake, Red Deer or the other
> Godforsaken place makes not much difference at all.
>
> Being in Armenia or any of the above makes quite a big difference.
Man oh man, what a fucker indeed. :(
(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
--=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Gustav Horvath
wrote:
>
>The point's not whether you give a shit about it or not, but a possible
>explanation for the current Holocaustomania that "erupted" from about
>1967.
So?
>>>So was the American Indian holocaust preceeding it and the WWII holocausts
>>>of various non-Aryan people (Gypsies, Slavs, to name two) that run
>>>parallel with the Jewish holocaust, or those were based on some other kind
>>>of racial superiority theories, huh? ;-)
>>
>> Racism yes, but not total extermination in any of these
>> cases to my best knowlegde. The Gypsies maybe, but you know who
>> knows this better.
>
>It looks like your "best knowledge" sucks big time, pal.
It looks yours sucks Pistukam, unless you have some supporting
documents, that shows German intent about extermination of *all*
Slavs.
>All of your "quoted elements" were present in the case of all non-Aryans
>whether you like to admit it or not. And when one compares the ca. 1.3
>million Jews killed by the Einsatzgruppen to the 1.4 million Jews + others
>(maybe even less) killed at Auschwitz, out goes the holo-causton ("by
>fire") in "the outlook of the whole" (this not to mention the fact that
>the loss of life wasn't by fire, as in Hiroshima, Nagasaki or carpet
>bombed German & Japanese cities, only corpses "died" by fire at the death
>camps.
I know about Morgenthau's plan to make Germany into a so called
"pastoral" society after the war, and am somewhat familiar with the
facts about the terror bombings in Japan and elsewhere, but are you
claiming that it was on a scale that could be matched to "Judenfrei"?
>Methinks you're full of shit again. ;=)
I think your momma is.
I already indicated that I have no further interest to analyse
Armenian propaganda.
You have an understanding problem?
Go play with your twin brother, Wally boy.
I trust you'll get all the answers on s.c.t.
Gustav
Wally Keeler
> bv...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Stephen Dancs) wrote:
> >Methinks you're full of shit again. ;=)
>
> I think your momma is.
>
Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his minor
mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake. Dancs is
trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one more
characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
Wally Keeler
> Gustav Horvath (tu...@sprint.ca) writes:
> >>Bullshit. You brought up the Red Deer issue in the first place, and
until
> >>then, no a single article made any reference to Red Deer. It was simply
your
> >>scatterbrained logic.
> >
> > Your bullshit, I made a minor mistake, Red Deer or the other
> > Godforsaken place makes not much difference at all.
> >
> > Being in Armenia or any of the above makes quite a big difference.
>
> Sure it does, yet the fact is that the National Post article Wally posted
> never claimed that "Ararat" was filmed in Armenia, only you claimed that
> the article claimed that it was shot there, and by keeping up with this
> spin, you just once again show your intellectual caliber. ;-)
Is there a caliber that goes that low?
Actually Mr Horvath initially made a very minor mistake. Such things are
common to us all. The issue that is very important is Mr Horvath's character
which permits him to lie by denying that he made such a minor mistake, and
furthermore to attribute the mistake to someone else. Talk about a craven
lack of integrity!
> > Your bullshit, I made a minor mistake, Red Deer or the other
> > Godforsaken place makes not much difference at all.
> >
> > Being in Armenia or any of the above makes quite a big difference.
>
> Man oh man, what a fucker indeed. :(
Indeed.
Nevzat Akdemir
Web Sites as source to his turk-hater claims, and/or
publishing " Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American
ambassador" :-) quotes. A Morgenthau that was the biggest
suck up to his boss at the White House. And a White House
boss who was raising ship at the front lawn to help his
"Christian Armed Forces" against "Halife of Istanbul".
You can believe anything you want, you and Dancs, -that crazy
dingelberry Romanian from Canada- but please, do not try to link
anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
nevzat
Gustav Horvath
<poet...@indirect.com> wrote:
>Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his minor
>mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake. Dancs is
>trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one more
>characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
Insufficient bait.
'you know just before the end of W.W. 2. some German soldiers
were trained to impersonate American GI.-s in order to make confusion
behind American lines.
Besides wearing American uniforms, they were to slouch, ignore "their"
officiers etc. They had a fairly easy job in mingling with the
Americans. According to fame most of the Germans got into trouble when
they had to use slang.
One of these was: bottoms-up!
Quite often they said: up your bottoms.
So Wallykam, bottoms-up!
Gustav
Archivist4
>Date: 08/11/2001 9:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3B76002A...@bellsouth.net>
>Dancs is making great mistakes, like giving an Armenian
>Web Sites as source to his turk-hater claims, and/or
>publishing " Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American
>ambassador" :-) quotes. A Morgenthau that was the biggest
>suck up to his boss at the White House. And a White House
Who the hell are you Nevzat? Why are you calling Danks, Wally and Henry
Morgenthau some liars?. Are you a lousy turk,lousy azery or a lousy muslim? YOU
guys are a bunch of idiots. Why the hell you crossing over on SRC?
Wally Keeler
Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3B76002A...@bellsouth.net...
> do not try to link
> anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
>
Wally Keeler
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:49:03 -0400, "Wally Keeler"
> <poet...@indirect.com> wrote:
>
> >Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his minor
> >mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake. Dancs is
> >trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one more
> >characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
>
> Insufficient bait.
Flattery again, thank you.
Archivist4
>Date: 08/10/2001 6:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3b74838e...@news.sprint.
>I think your momma is.
>
>I already indicated that I have no further interest to analyse
>Armenian propaganda.
>You have an understanding problem?
Lissen you idiot Dancs never mentionet about your lousy mother.
Whjat arminian propaganda are you talking about you moron?the whole work knows
about the Armenian masacre from april 24 1915 untill 1922. For you Turks - a
bunch of idiots - all this are a big lie.you moron how do you explain all the
documentary movies from that time. You idiot you weren't even born at that time
to know the TRUTH. You belive what your lousy turkish polititions are telling
you.
Turan guess what.."Ouzana sigheim"
Nevzat Akdemir
You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
hundered years and no kids were killed.
Try to see the other side of the story at times.
Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
rate poet?
nevzat
Wally Keeler
> Wally Keeler wrote:
> > When the shoe fits, tough...
> > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
> > >
> > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his
minor
> > > > mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake.
Dancs is
> > > > trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one
more
> > > > characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
>
>
> You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
> little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
> as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
> hundered years and no kids were killed.
> Try to see the other side of the story at times.
I do see the other side, make an assessment and come to a conlusion. Dig?
> Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I stated
such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best about
it.
> You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> rate poet?
Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
Nevzat Akdemir
>
> Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote...
> > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > When the shoe fits, tough...
> > > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > do not try to link
> > > > anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
> > > >
> > > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > > Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his
> minor
> > > > > mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake.
> Dancs is
> > > > > trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just one
> more
> > > > > characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
> >
> >
> > You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
> > little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
> > as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
> > hundered years and no kids were killed.
> > Try to see the other side of the story at times.
>
> I do see the other side, make an assessment and come to a conlusion. Dig?
Dig what? You can't even see tip of your nose! Cut down on the sauce.
>
> > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
>
> Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I stated
> such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best about
> it.
We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
holy water, is it?
>
> > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > rate poet?
>
> Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that stoopid
as well as a third rate poet?
No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
heh.
nevzat
Wally Keeler
> Wally Keeler wrote:
> > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote...
> > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > When the shoe fits, tough...
> > > > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > do not try to link
> > > > > anyone here to Lippai, neither Gustav nor any Turk.
> > > > > Wally Keeler wrote:
> > > > > > Unlike yourself, Dancs has the integrity not to lie and deny his
> > minor
> > > > > > mistake and to accuse someone else of making the minor mistake.
> > Dancs is
> > > > > > trustworthy - you are not. In this particlar regard, it is just
one
> > more
> > > > > > characteristic that you share with Doktor Lippai.
> > >
> > >
> > > You know that bomb went off on Jaffa street and killed so many
> > > little kids, (I know you have a son whom you give great importance,
> > > as it should be.) we managed that street for four-five
> > > hundered years and no kids were killed.
> > > Try to see the other side of the story at times.
> >
> > I do see the other side, make an assessment and come to a conlusion.
Dig?
>
>
> Dig what? You can't even see tip of your nose! Cut down on the sauce.
What a banality boner!
> > > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
> >
> > Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I
stated
> > such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best
about
> > it.
>
> We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
> did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
> holy water, is it?
Didn't claim it was, however, facts are facts, and I named them as I saw
them.
> > > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > > rate poet?
> >
> > Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
>
> But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that stoopid
> as well as a third rate poet?
> No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
> heh.
Exercising your bland gland again?
Nevzat Akdemir
Wally Keeler wrote:
You don't have to answer it!
>
>
> > > > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
> > >
> > > Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I
> stated
> > > such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best
> about
> > > it.
> >
> > We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
> > did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
> > holy water, is it?
>
> Didn't claim it was, however, facts are facts, and I named them as I saw
> them.
Very convenient, to help your bro. Dancs,
you slash the throat of another Turk or a friend of Turks.
Atypical Western/Christian behavior this is that you can come up
with a statement as stupid as "facts are facts... therefore..."
>
>
> > > > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > > > rate poet?
> > >
> > > Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
> >
> > But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that stoopid
> > as well as a third rate poet?
> > No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
> > heh.
>
> Exercising your bland gland again?
Did you really salivate when you typed this 4th grade junk?
How can you defend Romans on one post and call them (him) a 4th rate
human being on the next?
nevzat
(Btw, if I exercised my bland gland, the result would be someone much more
intelligent than Wally Keeler, after nine months that is.)
Wea...@hotmail.com
fuck makes ya think we give a shit about stupid fight ?
Fuck off, fags !
----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web -----
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Wally Keeler
> Wally Keeler wrote:
> > Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
Of course I don't, mon petite skwirt.
> > > > > Linking anyone to Lippai is a crime against humanity. Period.
> > > >
> > > > Gustav exhibited several characteristics in common with Dr Lippai. I
> > stated
> > > > such. If you don't like my freedom of speech, do what you think best
> > about
> > > > it.
> > >
> > > We all may have and exhibit those qualities at times (not that Gustav
> > > did as such on this thread) so what? Your brain isn't washed with
> > > holy water, is it?
> >
> > Didn't claim it was, however, facts are facts, and I named them as I saw
> > them.
>
> Very convenient, to help your bro. Dancs,
> you slash the throat of another Turk or a friend of Turks.
Dancs ain't my bro. Perhaps your ability to assume has diminished to zero.
Who's a Turk? I couldn't care less who is or is not a Turk.
> Atypical Western/Christian behavior this is that you can come up
> with a statement as stupid as "facts are facts... therefore..."
Sure, Yeh. Right. However, if you want to put something between quotation
marks and attribute it to someone, then I suggest you do it accurately.
Since you assert "therefore", prove your case. :-) If not, then zip up your
fly -- you're embarassing yourself.
> > > > > You wanna be tried next to Milosevic or what, you freaking third
> > > > > rate poet?
> > > >
> > > > Go ahead and lay charges you 4th rate human.
> > >
> > > But I am a Roman, how can you call me that? Are you really that
stoopid
> > > as well as a third rate poet?
> > > No wonder you're a third rate poet because you are stoopid.
> > > heh.
> >
> > Exercising your bland gland again?
>
> Did you really salivate when you typed this 4th grade junk?
Nope.
> How can you defend Romans on one post and call them (him) a 4th rate
> human being on the next?
Where did I defend Romans? Produce the evidence you 4th rate Bland Gland.
> nevzat
> (Btw, if I exercised my bland gland, the result would be someone much more
> intelligent than Wally Keeler, after nine months that is.)
What wit! What creativity! No wonder you run shotgun for Gusty. In your case
it aint bang bang but poof poof.
Nevzat Akdemir
Wally Keeler wrote:
> usual crap. deleted.
Wally Keeler
Nevzat Akdemir <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote...
Stephen Dancs
>
>GENOCIDE OF THE ROMA IN THE HOLOCAUST
>by Ian Hancock
>Excerpted from Encyclopedia of Genocide (1997) by Israel W. Charny
Man, what can I say, the man (Hancock), put me on the defensive right with
his clearly false opening:
Roma, commonly but inaccurately called Gypsies, were the only other
population besides the Jews who were targeted for extermination on racial
grounds in the Final Solution.
for firstly, Roma, aren't "inaccurately called Gypsies" the same way
Magyars aren't "inaccurately called Hungarians". Had he started with
"Gypsies, who prefer to be called/call themselves Roma" or "Roma, aka
Gypsies" or simply just "Roma (Gypsies)", he'd have been much more
respectful of the truth. As it stands, he just barely stopped short of
claiming that the term "Gypsy" is derogatory -- as many others do.
Secondly, they definitively weren't "the _only_ other pop. besides Jews
targeted on racial grounds", for Russian & other Slavic POWs were targeted
exactly for the same racial reasons.
This politically correct driven "enforcement" of Sinti & Roma, Rom, Rrom
and God knows what for the good ole' Gypsy (Gipsy), actually might even
come to be a life saviour for a bunch of neo-Nazis charged with inciting
to hate crimes against them:
WHY DID COURT LET NEO-NAZI SKINHEADS GO FREE?
The thugs were accused of crimes against the Roma, and the judge
acquitted them on the grounds that "there is no evidence that the Roma are
similar to, the same as, or related to the Gypsies."
-- The Toronto Star, June 25, 2000
SKINHEADS CLEARED OF HATE CHARGES IN PROTEST AGAINST ROMA REFUGEES
The case was dismissed because the charges referred to Roma and not
Gypsy, said [judge] Otter. The crown failed to prove the terms are one
and the same, despite several attempts to do so, the judge said. [...]
Crown Attorney Maggie Lazaridis had argued the two terms are used
interchangeably, but that the term "Gypsy" is pejorative and for that
reason was not used in the charges.
-- The Toronto Star, March 25, 2000
(See enclosures for full texts relating to this idiotic debacle)
In a word, thanks to the politically correct Hancock's of this world, if
not overturned on an appeal, the skinheads most likely will walk. (Albeit
methinks that it was rather that the judge fell for the "selective and
discriminatory prosecution" issue than a Roma=Gypsy? one, see
Skinheads' lawyers seek stay of charges
The defence argues that Chong's [a former Toronto councillor now chair of
the Greater Toronto Services Board, i.e., just another fatcat
http://city.vaughan.on.ca/html/cityhall/chong.htm ] statements
in council that Gypsies "pimp their wives and daughters" is even more
hateful. By charging the skinheads and ignoring Chong, the Crown is guilty
of selective and discriminatory prosecution, contrary to the Charter of
Rights and Freedoms. The skinheads were charged because of their
political views, their status and their background, all of which are
improper and discriminatory reasons, the defence contends.
-- The Canadian Jewish News, April 22, 1999
ref.: http://cjnews.com/pastissues/99/apr22-99/main.htm
and he used the Roma=Gypsy? thing just to put an end to the issue for the
demo was, to use his words "peaceful and without incident", and the fact
is that, with the demo taking place on Aug. 26, 1997, and the suspects
being arrested & charged only on Dec. 09, '97, with no parallel arrest &
charging of Chong, even if no "collusion", as in
Although the motion was eventually dismissed, the court actually spent
time listening to a defence argument that the charges resulted from a
Jewish conspiracy (they called it "collusion") involving the Canadian
Jewish Congress, a Jew [chief counsel] in the crown law office [Michael
Bernstein], and then-[Province of Ontario]-attorney-general Charles
Harnick [who's also Jewish].
-- The Toronto Star June 25, 2000
occurred, the _appearance_ of justice being done had to be made.)
Further, prof. Hancock writes:
By the 1880s, Chancellor von Bismarck reinforced some of the
discriminatory laws, stating that Roma were to be dealt with "especially
severely" if apprehended.
w/o giving any detail/context about just exactly who was to be "especially
severely" dealt with. Now Bismarck, was the fellow who introduced social
security in Germany, had put lots of liberal Jews in his cabinet and
single handedly forced Romania to get rid of her anti-Semitic constitution
if she wanted the European great powers to recognize her independence at
the Berlin Congress of 1878, so I doubt that Bismarck would've done great
mischief to German Gypsies.
I don't have much time to waste on Bismarck and the Gypsies, but the
following quick googlin' result kinda hints as to what was to be dealt
"'especially severely' if apprehended":
1870. Imperial Chancellor Otto von Bismarck circulates a letter dated
November 18th demanding the "complete prohibition of foreign Gypsies
crossing the German border," and that "they will be transported by the
closest route to their country of origin." He also states that Roma in
Germany be asked to show documentary proof of citizenship, and that if
this is not forthcoming, they be denied travelling passes.
ref.: http://geocities.com/Paris/5121/timeline.htm
a right, which any souvereign country has, unless of course, one wants to
bring the world to the brink of anarchy by allowing anyone to move about
and settle his ass weherever he or she wants.
I have no time to check up on the factuality of each and every of
Hancock's statements, so I'll just mention quickly a couple more that are
too obvious to miss even in a quick reading.
In January, 1940, the first mass genocidal action of the Holocaust took
place when 250 Romani children were murdered in Buchenwald, where they
were used as guinea-pigs to test the efficacy of the Zyklon-B crystals,
later used in the gas chambers.
Aside from the very dubious Jan. '40 timing (isn't it a lil' bit just too
early?) for the Zyklon-B tests, were they not first tested on Russian POWs
at Auschwitz (therefore definitively post Jun 22, '41 [Operation
Barbarossa, the Nazi attack on the USSR)? Furthermore, to my knowledge,
all extermination camps were in Nazi-occupied Poland and there weren't any
on German pre-1937 territory; Buchenwald was a _concentration_ camp where,
true, people died horrible deaths, yet, as far as I know, none through
gasings. And was it really the "first mass genocidal action of the
Holocaust"? Really?
In June, 1940, Hitler ordered the liquidation of "all Jews, Gypsies and
communist political functionaries in the entire Soviet Union."
Here, one wonders how could Hitler have ordered liquidations that still
have one year to come at the very least, and I'd truly appreciate the
source for the quote, i.e., is he quoting from a Hitler dated & signed
order, some Hitler associate's diary/memoirs or just from some guy's text
dealing with the issue.
Now "one wrong" doesn´t mean "all wrong", yet, I'd take everything this
Hancock guy says with a big grain of salt for the he's out on lunch on
some major issues and I suspect that he's rather more interested into
complementing the "Shoa business" with now a "Gypsy business" than
actually telling it as it really was. :(
(NOTE: Answers to this posting will be monitored mainly on the
"soc.culture.romanian" newsgroup.)
--=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs http://come.to/sdancs http://s.dancs.net
http://www.ncf.ca/~bv561/ Voicemail: +1 (718) 404-3905 x 5674
--encl.--
WHY DID COURT LET NEO-NAZI SKINHEADS GO FREE?
The Toronto Star, June 25, 2000
ONE OF the most bizarre and heart-sickening court decisions in recent
Ontario history is now, thank goodness, under appeal.
Last March, Mr. Justice Russell Otter dismissed all charges against six
skinheads after they demonstrated in August, 1997, against the presence of
Roma refugees huddled inside Scarborough's Lido Motel.
The skinheads and their lawyer, Peter Lindsay, never denied that the
accused had marched around, bandanas covering their faces, with signs that
read "Honk if you hate Gypsies," "You're a Cancer to Canada" and "G.S.T. -
Gypsies Suck Tax." They carried swastika banners, gave the Nazi salute,
and hollered "Gypsies out!" and "White power!"
It's important to note that the newly arrived Roma (derogatorily known
through the ages as "Gypsies") had suffered severe and documented
persecution in Eastern Europe, from mass murder by Hitler during the
Holocaust, right up to and including unpunished murder by present-day
police as well as neo-Nazi thugs. Imagine how these families felt, crammed
into their rooms at the Lido Motel, as the self-same enemy strutted
outside the door.
We're different in Canada, aren't we? We have anti-hate laws. We've
learned our hard lessons from a century of discrimination against native
Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Pakistanis, Irish Catholics,
African-Canadians - why, there's hardly an ethnic group or racial minority
that hasn't suffered injustice and prejudice in our capacious country. At
the same time, we rank among the more generous and open-minded of nations.
And we have laws that make it illegal to target any identifiable group as
an object of hatred.
Four adults - Kryusztof Krymowski, Ryan Marshall, Michael Schulz and Quinn
McFarlane, as well as two youths - were duly charged with wilfully
promoting hatred against the Roma.
That's when things began to seem peculiar. Although the defence lawyer
called no evidence, the legal proceedings dragged on for nearly three
years - and, at the end, last March, the skinheads swaggered out of court,
declared innocent.
How did this happen? The thugs were accused of crimes against the Roma,
and the judge acquitted them on the grounds that "there is no evidence
that the Roma are similar to, the same as, or related to the Gypsies."
Right. And there's no evidence that wops are the same as Italians, or
kikes are the same as Jews.
The people in question call themselves Roma and specifically reject the
name "Gypsy" as insulting. Naturally enough, when the crown laid the
charges, it used the name "Roma" instead of the slang term. This was the
astonishing loophole that allowed the skinheads to go free.
The judge refused to admit into evidence the crown's long list of
dictionary definitions which linked the word Gypsy with Roma. As the trial
neared its end, he refused to allow the crown to reopen its case with
additional proof of the link between the two terms.
The connection between Roma and Gypsy might well have been put forward by
the crown's expert witness, Bernie Farber of the Canadian Jewish Congress,
a respected authority who has given expert testimony in more than a dozen
cases. But the judge rejected Farber as a witness because he might be seen
as biased against the skinheads. (Farber had criticized the demonstration
before any charges were laid). A number of commentators, including
criminal lawyer Clay Ruby, expressed their astonishment at Otter's
decision; one law professor called it "unusual."
In fact, all expert witnesses have a point of view. And the judge, hearing
the case without a jury, could have heard Farber's evidence about the Roma
and still made allowances for any "bias" he might have detected.
Amazingly, when Otter later gave his reasons for acquitting the skinheads,
he himself cited the lack of expert evidence.
One reason the trial took so long was that the judge allowed various
defence motions, from three different defence lawyers, to be heard.
Although the motion was eventually dismissed, the court actually spent
time listening to a defence argument that the charges resulted from a
Jewish conspiracy (they called it "collusion") involving the Canadian
Jewish Congress, a Jew in the crown law office, and then-attorney-general
Charles Harnick. I would have thought a judge would refuse to hear such a
motion.
But that's not all that struck me as passing strange when I read parts of
the trial transcript. There was Otter's jovial suggestion that a police
officer should sing out loud a racist song on a CD seized from the
accused. When the skinheads guffawed at this jape, it was the crown, not
the judge, who asked the court reporter to make note of their laughter.
The judge said nothing to the chortling neo-Nazis.
When a line from one of their songs ("Bernie and the CJC can f--- off")
was quoted, the judge quipped, repeatedly, that this might be a reference
to the Canadian Judicial Council.
When the crown introduced Nazi books and posters taken from the accused,
the judge badgered her to prove the relevance of the hate material by
providing more context; he did the same with the crown's evidence of the
skinheads' Hitlerian salute ("They could be raising their arms to wave
'hi'.")
Finally, nowhere that I read in his decision did he express the court's
distaste for the scurrilous actions, statements and slogans of the accused
- not even by so much as an adjective. In fact, he benignly described the
racist demonstration as "peaceful and without incident."
When the skinheads went free, the Roma community expressed its bitter
shock and dismay. (All the more shocked, I would guess, because even Judge
Otter used the term Roma in his comments from the bench.)
Justice, to me, is not a game of wits, a joust, a lawyer's sport.
When neo-Nazi skinheads can terrorize frightened refugees with chants,
slogans and parades of hatred, and when those neo-Nazis can stroll
snickering and free from the courtroom, we Canadians must examine our
souls and the justice system that speaks in our name.
Michele Landsberg's column usually appears in The Star Saturday and
Sunday. Her e-mail address is mla...@thestar.ca
---
SKINHEADS CLEARED OF HATE CHARGES IN PROTEST AGAINST ROMA REFUGEES
The Toronto Star, March 25, 2000
by Tracy Huffman
A hate-crime case which lasted almost three years ended yesterday with the
dismissal of all charges against four adults and two youths.
In delivering his verdict, Mr. Justice Russell Otter said the crown failed
to prove the case against the six skinheads who were charged with
promoting hate against Roma people in an August, 1997, demonstration
outside a Kingston Rd. motel.
Although defence lawyer Peter Lindsay never argued against the claim that
the six accused were at the protest, he said they did not demonstrate hate
against the Roma people.
"There was no evidence whatsoever established by the crown that there was
wilful promotion of hatred against the Roma," Otter said.
About 25 protesters had gathered outside the Lido Motel where Czech Roma
refugee claimants were staying. They chanted and carried placards reading
"Honk if You Hate Gypsies" and "Canada is not a trash can."
Some of the protesting skinheads wore scarves over their faces and carried
a flag bearing a Nazi swastika.
But the case was dismissed because the charges referred to Roma and not
Gypsy, said Otter. The crown failed to prove the terms are one and the
same, despite several attempts to do so, the judge said.
"I can only rely on the evidence presented in court," he said.
'There was no evidence whatsoever established by the crown that there was
wilful promotion of hatred'
Crown Attorney Maggie Lazaridis had argued the two terms are used
interchangeably, but that the term "Gypsy" is pejorative and for that
reason was not used in the charges.
The six skinheads refused to comment outside the courthouse.
"I never comment on cases," said Lindsay, when asked to comment on the
judge's ruling. "I think the judgment speaks for itself."
Lazaridis said she is considering an appeal.
The case involved four adults - Kryusztof Krymowski, Ryan Marshall,
Michael Schulz and Quinn McFarlane, all in their 20s - and two young
offenders. All six had entered not guilty pleas.
Outside court, Danny Roth, spokesperson for the Canadian Jewish Congress,
Ontario division, expressed his disappointment with the decision.
"The interest of justice obviously has not been served by today's ruling.
We strongly urge and hope the crown will appeal this decision," Roth said.
"We feel very badly and empathize with the Roma community."
The Canadian Jewish Congress will continue to work with prosecutors and
the police to encourage these types of prosecutions, he said.
"I'm just horrified . . . It's general knowledge to everybody except this
court that Gypsy and Roma are synonymous," said Ronald Lee, of the Roma
Community and Advocacy Centre or Toronto.
"I wouldn't think it would be necessary - if this sign had said Negroes -
to prove that Negroes meant blacks," he said.
". . . I don't see why the connection even had to be made."
---
Ontario court asked to rule if Gypsy, Roma synonymous
Canadian Jewish News, February 3, 2000, pg 5
by Paul Lungen
Toronto -- A hate promotion case is hanging by a thread as an Ontario
Court judge considers whether Gypsy and Roma are synonymous terms.
Last week, Judge Russell Otter was asked to take judicial notice of the
fact that the two terms are interchangeable. Earlier, he had ruled that no
evidence had been presented at trial to show Roma and Gypsy were the same.
The case arises out of an August 1997 incident in which seven skinheads
paraded in front of the Lido Motel to protest the presence of Roma (Gypsy)
refugee claimants. They carried signs that stated: "Honk if you hate
Gypsies" and "Canada is not a trash can." They also shouted "Gypsies out"
while one demonstrator waved a swastika flag.
They were charged with promoting hatred against an identifiable group, the
Roma. One of the seven has already pleaded guilty. The others are four
adults -- Kryusztof Krymowski, Ryan Marshall, Michael Schulz and Quinn
McFarlane -- and two young offenders.
Following completion of the prosecution case, Crown attorney Maggie
Lazaridis asked Otter to amend the charges to include the term Gypsies,
but the judge ruled last week that "there is no evidence to support the
conclusion that Roma and Gypsy are the same. To amend the information
[charges] as asked by the Crown" would be "prejudicial, unjust and unfair
to the defence."
Lazaridis then asked the court to take judicial notice that the terms Roma
and Gypsy are synonymous. Judges are allowed to take judicial notice of
facts that are widely accepted and that require no proof. Lazaridis
presented the court with several dictionary definitions that showed Roma
were described in most cases as male Gypsies.
The Crown's case may well depend on the judge's decision on the issue. The
defence contends that the Crown has failed to prove its case based on the
charges it has already filed. Defence lawyers Peter Lindsay and David
Gomes also contested the Crown's judicial notice application. Lindsay
argued that it was too late in the proceedings for the Crown to try to
address a "gap" in its case by asking the judge to take judicial notice.
He also argued that the court should not take judicial notice of a key
element that is at issue.
If the judge rules that he cannot take judicial notice that Roma and
Gypsies are the same, Lazaridis said she will ask that the case be
reopened to allow for further evidence on that issue.
Last week, court convened almost 45 minutes late as participants waited
for police to deliver McFarlane. McFarlane, who Was brought into court in
handcuffs, is serving jail time for an unrelated assault conviction.
---
JUDGE REJECTS HATE EXPERT
The Toronto Star, November 19, 1999
by Maureen Murray
A judge has rejected Bernie Farber, executive director of the Canadian
Jewish Congress, as an expert witness in a trial of skinheads charged with
promoting hate.
Farber was called by Crown Attorney Maggie Lazaridis yesterday to give
expert testimony on neo-Nazi and skinhead symbolism and white supremacy.
Although Farber has previously testified as an expert in about a dozen
cases, Mr. Justice Russell Otter ruled in this instance he could be
perceived as having a bias.
Otter pointed to comments Farber made to the media following a protest by
skinheads in August, 1997, outside the Lido Motel where recently arrived
Czech Roma refugee claimants were staying.
Four adults - Kryusztof Krymowski, Ryan Marshall, Michael Schulz and Quinn
McFarlane - and two young offenders, are being tried for wilfully
promoting hate as a result of the protest involving skinheads wearing
scarves over their faces and carrying a Nazi swastika and placards
reading, "Honk if You Hate Gypsies."
Otter said he was particularly concerned by an article which appeared in
Now Magazine in which Farber was quoted as stating: "Slam (the skinheads)
hard and slam them now," in urging charges be laid after the protest.
"It's pretty colourful, pretty provocative and strong language," the judge
said.
Otter said there was a concern that the tone of Farber's earlier public
comments advocating authorities come down hard on the skinheads might lead
to his expert testimony being "shaded, tailored, tempered, nuanced in a
fashion to achieve that goal."
Smiles were visible on the faces of the accused as the judge rendered his
ruling. Farber refused to comment on it yesterday.
The trial continues today.
---
Roma community supports hate crimes trial
Canadian Press Newswire, October 20, 1999
by Sarah Lambert
TORONTO (CP) In quiet condemnation of racism, members of the Roma refugee
community came to court Wednesday to watch the hate-crimes trial of four
skinheads.
"We want the judge to take this seriously, that this isn't some kind of
prank," said Ron Lee, of the Roma Community and Advocacy Centre.
"Canadian skinheads are linked up internationally with well organized
groups."
In was on Aug. 26, 1997 that many Canadians were outraged when a group in
neo-Nazi regalia and waving swastikas chanted anti-Gypsy slogans outside a
motel housing the refugees, who said they had escaped persecution by white
supremacists in the Czech Republic.
Charges of wilfully inciting hatred were laid against seven of the
protesters.
On Wednesday, under repeated questioning by the Crown, Mike Schulz of
Toronto said he was sleepy at the time of his early morning arrest on Dec.
9, 1997, and he didn't recall being told he could call a lawyer.
"I don't remember. I don't think it happened," said Schulz, 20. "It is
possible, but I don't recall."
Schulz, Kryusztof Krymowski, of Brampton, Ont., Ryan Marshall and Quinn
McFarlane, both of Toronto, were all charged with willfully inciting
hatred.
Two young offenders also face trial.
Walter Froebrich, 22, pleaded guilty in April 1999.
At the time of the protest, Froebrich told a TV reporter: "We are trying
to get rid of the Gypsies ... They bring crime and drugs and they're
polluting our streets."
Asked how far he would go, he replied: "Whatever it takes."
The defence wants Schulz's admission to police that he was one of the
masked individuals in a photograph of the anti-Roma protest excluded from
evidence.
But Crown attorney Maggie Lazaridis argued the accused made the admission
freely because he had been properly read his rights at the time of his
arrest and questioning.
The case was adjourned until early Nov. 3, when the defence lawyer Peter
Lindsay, will argue that his client was not properly advised of his right
to a lawyer.
---
SKINHEAD HATE TRIAL TODAY 4 FACE CHARGES
The Toronto Sun, April 26, 1999 Pg. 22
by PHILIP LEE-SHANOK
Four neo-Nazi skinheads go to trial today on hate-mongering charges in
connection with an anti-Gypsy protest outside a Scarborough motel two
years ago.
It's alleged the men -- all in their early 20s -- were among about 25
protesters chanting white-supremacist slogans outside the Lido Motel on
Kingston Rd. where Romani refugee claimants from the Czech Republic were
staying Aug. 26, 1997.
After a three-month probe, police laid charges of wilful promotion of
hatred against seven protesters -- including two young offenders.
One skinhead pleaded guilty to hate charges on Friday.
TV INTERVIEW
Walter Froebrich, 22, of Etobicoke -- who was interviewed by a local
television station during the protest -- refused to comment outside court
after pleading guilty to spreading hatred.
"His plea indicates his feelings," said lawyer Harry Doan when asked if
his client felt remorseful. "Walter's just happy to have the thing
closed."
Froebrich, who had been released on $ 2,500 bail, will be sentenced
Thursday.
It's alleged the four on trial were performing Nazi salutes and held
symbols of hate as they picketed the motel where the refugee claimants
stayed.
The accused are Kryusztof Krymowski, of Brampton, and Ryan Marshall,
Michael Shulz, and Quinn McFarlane, all of Scarborough. Two young
offenders will also face trial next week.
---
HATE FROM ALL SIDES RAUCOUS PROTEST IN RACIST CASE
The Toronto Sun, September 24, 1998 Pg. 54
by DICK CHAPMAN
About 30 Romani men, women and children demonstrated yesterday outside a
Scarborough court where a hate crime trial was slated to begin.
But they were drowned out by 20 Anti-Racist Action protesters who shouted
and chanted, waved placards stapled to baseball bats and taunted some of
the accused.
Five adults and two youths are charged with willful promotion of hatred
after a group performing Nazi salutes picketed a Scarborough motel on Aug.
26, 1997. They carried placards stating, Honk if you hate Gypsies, in a
protest against Romani refugee claimants from the Czech Republic housed at
the motel.
Josef Banom, a Roma who immigrated to Canada from the Czech Republic, said
Roma people wanted to make a point. "Canada is the No. 1 country in the
world for multiculturalism. Garbage like skinheads are not supposed to be
here."
Four Toronto cops guarded the courtroom door yesterday while about a dozen
officers stood nearby. About 20 extra cops watched closely outside, police
horses waited behind the courthouse and a paddy wagon stood by in front.
No arrests were made.
Sent to trial next April 6-28 were Walter Froebrich, 20, of Etobicoke;
Kryusztof Krymowski, 20, of Brampton; and Ryan Marshall, 20; Michael
Shulz, 19; and Quinn McFarlane, 19, all of Scarborough. Only McFarlane is
in custody. The youths, who can't be named, are to be tried April 29-30.
GRAPHIC: photo by Juan Fanzio ANGER ... Anti-Racist Action protesters
mounted placards on baseball bats, chanted and taunted some of the accused
in a hate crime case outside a Scarborough court yesterday.
--end--