Jatts
Unkown
Are the majority of Jatts , Muslim or Sikh ?
There are many Muslim Jatt tribes in Pakistan Punjab, some of my mothers
family are married to Jatts. But I don't know whether there are more Muslim
or Sikh Jatts ?
Also, Sandeep...there are plenty of Hindu Jatts. I know a few myself. I
heard that Harayana was full of Hindu Jatts, is that true ?
S Singh Sandhu
I would think there are more muslim jats , jats in afghanistan,
ukraine , and russia are all muslim ,of course converts.
Btw the tallest people in india according to some study were
the haryana jats , at abt 1.8m , however they beat the jatts only
by 1-2 cm. The rest of the indians were too far behind to mention.
JATOFTHEPANJAB
But you yourself is not disclosing your tribal identity please?
Rajinder Nijjhar.
Unkown wrote in message <#hkT72CP#GA....@ntawwabp.compuserve.com>...
sandeep
S Singh Sandhu wrote:
> "Unkown" <unk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>Are the majority of Jatts , Muslim or Sikh ?
> >
> >There are many Muslim Jatt tribes in Pakistan Punjab, some of my mothers
> >family are married to Jatts. But I don't know whether there are more Muslim
> >or Sikh Jatts ?
> >
> >Also, Sandeep...there are plenty of Hindu Jatts. I know a few myself. I
> >heard that Harayana was full of Hindu Jatts, is that true ?
Haryana's population is about 25 million, out of which at least 40% are Punjabi
Hindus or Sikhs!
Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
One intersting thing in Haryana's district of Kurukshetra, Karnal and Ambala is
that
all over countryside Sikhs and Hindu Jats live peacefully!! Even though most of
the Sikhs only
moved to Haryana after independence (when haryana was part of Punjab and were
given lands
left behind by Muslims who left for Pakistan) .
Majority of Jats live in Rohtak, Hissar and Gurgaon and districts that are
attached to Delhi and Rajasthan.
> >
> >
> Those are jats in haryana , i'm not sure how they're related .
> I would think there are more muslim jats , jats in afghanistan,
All AFghanis are not Jats! they are from Greek Origin!! proof that before
Alexander invaded India,these tribes did not existed in that part of Iran (which
is now afghanistan). Greek generals settled here!
There are many distinct groups of Afghanis!! Pashtuns which are "PAthans" as we
call them in India are
most likely Indian and Greek mixtures!!
Others are Iran and Greek mixture , etc, etc!!
Jats came into India much before Alexander and belong to Hun and other Germanic
tribes!! Juts are not related
in any way to Afghanis or Pathans!!
> ukraine , and russia are all muslim ,of course converts.
> Btw the tallest people in india according to some study were
> the haryana jats , at abt 1.8m , however they beat the jatts only
> by 1-2 cm. The rest of the indians were too far behind to mention.
Muslim and Sikh Jutts are related to Haryanvi Jatts and Rajasthani Jatts!! (In
Rajasthan there still are Bajju Jatts (as I am Bajwa), so are
there other tribes which are very similar to the Punjabi Jutt tribes.
It is said that initially all the Germanic tribes settled at current day
Rajasthan and then later moved upto current day Punjab,
Haryana and UP! (and now USA, Canada, UK, etc)
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
Deepak Sahrawat
>
[...]
>
> Haryana's population is about 25 million, out of which at least 40% are Punjabi
> Hindus or Sikhs!
>
> Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
>
I dont think the 40% figure is accurate. Most Punjabi Hindus in Haryana
live in the cities and their number is definitely much lower than that.
Most of the Punjabis (both Hindu and Sikh) in Haryana were refugees who
came over from E. Punjab during independence.
[...]
>
> Muslim and Sikh Jutts are related to Haryanvi Jatts and Rajasthani Jatts!! (In
> Rajasthan there still are Bajju Jatts (as I am Bajwa), so are
> there other tribes which are very similar to the Punjabi Jutt tribes.
>
Some common clans between Hindu and Sikh Jats I am aware of are Maan,
Grewal,
Lamba, Malik, Rana, Bains, Khokhar etc.
--Deepak
JATOFTHEPANJAB
What the Jatts of the Panjab do not know that most of their own surname
people dominate many villages in Haryana. A town Mohim, near Rohtak is of
Grewal Jatts, Karnal is full of Dhillon, etc.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
S Singh Sandhu wrote in message <3698ccd0.0@nsuxnews>...
>
>"Unkown" <unk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Are the majority of Jatts , Muslim or Sikh ?
>>
>>There are many Muslim Jatt tribes in Pakistan Punjab, some of my mothers
>>family are married to Jatts. But I don't know whether there are more
Muslim
>>or Sikh Jatts ?
>>
>>Also, Sandeep...there are plenty of Hindu Jatts. I know a few myself. I
>>heard that Harayana was full of Hindu Jatts, is that true ?
>>
>>
>Those are jats in haryana , i'm not sure how they're related .
>I would think there are more muslim jats , jats in afghanistan,
Deepak Sahrawat
>
> Khokars are Rajputs.
>
They are Jat as well. I personally know Khokhar Jats from Haryana.
So are Chauhan, Tomar, Pawar and numerous other Jat clans. What does
this mean? Look up Gandasa's post. The origin of Rajputs who made
a late appearance in India is a bit hazy.
-- Deepak
Unknown
I am a Punjabi though not a Jatt but most importantly of all...I'm Muslim.
JATOFTHEPANJAB wrote in message <77bbqb$aaa$2...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>Hi Unknown,
>
>But you yourself is not disclosing your tribal identity please?
>
>Rajinder Nijjhar.
>
>
>Unkown wrote in message <#hkT72CP#GA....@ntawwabp.compuserve.com>...
>>
Unknown
What is the predominant religion of the Jatt caste ? I mean are there more
Hindu/Sikh/Muslim Jatts ? I know the majority of Sikhs are Jatt but are the
majority of Jatts , Sikh ?
What caste were the Gurus ?
sandeep wrote in message <36993615...@home.com>...
>
>
>S Singh Sandhu wrote:
>
>> "Unkown" <unk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>Are the majority of Jatts , Muslim or Sikh ?
>> >
>> >There are many Muslim Jatt tribes in Pakistan Punjab, some of my mothers
>> >family are married to Jatts. But I don't know whether there are more
Muslim
>> >or Sikh Jatts ?
>> >
>> >Also, Sandeep...there are plenty of Hindu Jatts. I know a few myself. I
>> >heard that Harayana was full of Hindu Jatts, is that true ?
>
>Haryana's population is about 25 million, out of which at least 40% are
Punjabi
>Hindus or Sikhs!
>
>Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
>
>One intersting thing in Haryana's district of Kurukshetra, Karnal and
Ambala is
>that
>all over countryside Sikhs and Hindu Jats live peacefully!! Even though
most of
>the Sikhs only
>moved to Haryana after independence (when haryana was part of Punjab and
were
>given lands
>left behind by Muslims who left for Pakistan) .
>
>Majority of Jats live in Rohtak, Hissar and Gurgaon and districts that are
>attached to Delhi and Rajasthan.
>
>> >
>> >
>> Those are jats in haryana , i'm not sure how they're related .
>> I would think there are more muslim jats , jats in afghanistan,
>
>All AFghanis are not Jats! they are from Greek Origin!! proof that before
>Alexander invaded India,these tribes did not existed in that part of Iran
(which
>is now afghanistan). Greek generals settled here!
>
>There are many distinct groups of Afghanis!! Pashtuns which are "PAthans"
as we
>call them in India are
>most likely Indian and Greek mixtures!!
>
>Others are Iran and Greek mixture , etc, etc!!
>
>Jats came into India much before Alexander and belong to Hun and other
Germanic
>tribes!! Juts are not related
>in any way to Afghanis or Pathans!!
>
>
>
>> ukraine , and russia are all muslim ,of course converts.
>> Btw the tallest people in india according to some study were
>> the haryana jats , at abt 1.8m , however they beat the jatts only
>> by 1-2 cm. The rest of the indians were too far behind to mention.
>
>Muslim and Sikh Jutts are related to Haryanvi Jatts and Rajasthani Jatts!!
(In
>Rajasthan there still are Bajju Jatts (as I am Bajwa), so are
>there other tribes which are very similar to the Punjabi Jutt tribes.
>
S Singh Sandhu
gan...@my-dejanews.com
sba...@home.com wrote:
>
>
> S Singh Sandhu wrote:
>
> > "Unkown" <unk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>Are the majority of Jatts , Muslim or Sikh ?
> > >
> > >There are many Muslim Jatt tribes in Pakistan Punjab, some of my mothers
> > >family are married to Jatts. But I don't know whether there are more Muslim
> > >or Sikh Jatts ?
> > >
> > >Also, Sandeep...there are plenty of Hindu Jatts. I know a few myself. I
> > >heard that Harayana was full of Hindu Jatts, is that true ?
>
> Haryana's population is about 25 million, out of which at least 40% are Punjabi
> Hindus or Sikhs!
>
> Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
But almost all are related to Sakas. Jats are one of the most
numerous of the Saka tribes. Others include Gujars, Ahirs, Awans, etc.
>
> Majority of Jats live in Rohtak, Hissar and Gurgaon and districts that are
> attached to Delhi and Rajasthan.
>
> Muslim and Sikh Jutts are related to Haryanvi Jatts and Rajasthani Jatts!! (In
> Rajasthan there still are Bajju Jatts (as I am Bajwa), so are
> there other tribes which are very similar to the Punjabi Jutt tribes.
>
> It is said that initially all the Germanic tribes settled at current day
> Rajasthan and then later moved upto current day Punjab,
> Haryana and UP! (and now USA, Canada, UK, etc)
>
Not absolutely true. Some Sakas came from the Kyber pass (e.g. Kushanas)
while other through the Bolan pass which gets you into Sindh/Rajasthan.
Here is some more on Jat origins and expansion from Dejanews search.
According to Ethnographers and historians like Cunningham, Todd, Ibbetson,
Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, etc., many of the argicultural,
pastoral, and artisan communities of the entire northwest are derived from
the war-like Indo-Scythians who conquered and settled northern and western
southasia in successive waves between 500 B.C. to 500 AD.
Some of these groups came through the Kyber pass, others through the more
southerly Bolan pass which opens into Dera Ismail Khan in Sindh -- an entry
point into Gujarat and Rajasthan. From here some invading groups went north
(Punjab), others went south (Maharasthra), and others further east (UP, MP).
This explains why some Jats/Rajputs claim origins from Rajasthan (Chauhan,
Powar, Rathi, etc.) while others to Afghanistan (e.g. Mann, Her, Bhullar,
Gill, Sandhu, etc.). This is supported by the fact that oldest Rajput
geneologies (9-11th centuries) do not precede into the northwest's
Gandharan Buddhist period (500 B.C. - 900 AD). So Rajputs arose
much later from previously Scythic groups.
Here is a quote from Denzil Ibbetson( p. 100; ref. below) on Jats/Rajputs
(he was in charge of the "1881 Census of the Punjab Province"):
"It may be that the original Rajput and the original Jat entered India
at different periods in its history, though in my mind the term Rajput
is an occupational rather than an ethnological expression. But if they
do originally represent two separate waves of immigration, it is at least
exceedingly probable, both from their almost identical physique and
facial character and from the close communion which has always existed
between them that they belong to the one and same ethnic stock;
while whether this be so or not, it is almost certain that they have been
for many centuries and still are so intermingled and so blended into
one people that it is practically impossible to distinguish them as
separate wholes".
Ibbetson, Denzil (1916), Punjab Castes: Races, Castes and Tribes of the People
of Panjab, Cosmos Punblications, New Delhi (1981).
Some References on Indo-Scythians
-----------------------------------
Banerjea, J.N. (1987), The Scythians and Parthians in India, in a
Comprehensive History of India, edited by K.A.N. Sastri, Vol. 2,
Peoples Publishing House, New Delhi, India, 1987, pp 186-309, pp
830-838.
Banerji, R.D. (1909), The Scythian Period in Indian History, Indian
Antiquary, Vol. XXXVII, pp 25-74.
Bingley, A.H. (1978), History, Caste & Culture of the Jats and Gujars, Ess Ess
Publications, New Delhi, India (first published in 1899).
Cunningham, A. (1971), Coins of the Indo-Scythians, Sakas, and Kushanas,
Reprinted by Indological Book House, Varanasi, India (first published
1888).
-------(1979), Later Indo-Scythians (Coins), No. 11, Reprinted by Indological
Book House, varanasi, India (first published 1893-94).
-------(1963), Coins of Ancient India: from the earliest times down to the
seventh century A.D., reprinted by Indological Book House, Varanasi,
India.
Dhillon, B.S. (1994), History and Study of the Jats, Beta Publishers Inc.,
Ottawa, Canada
Dahiya, B.S. (1980), Jats: The Ancient Rulers, Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd.,
New Delhi, India.
Eggmont, P.H.L. (1970), Alexander's Campaign in Gandhara and Ptolemy's List
of Indo-Scythian Towns, Orientalis Lavaniensia Periodica I, pp 3-123.
Gupta, P.L. (1988), Coins, National Book Trust, New Delhi, India, pp 51-52.
Hewitt, J.F. (1894), The Ruling Races of Prehistorical Times in India,
South-Western Asia, and Southern Europe, Archibald Constable & Co. ,
London, pp. 481-487.
Herodotus (B.C. 490-425): The Histories, translated by de Selincourt, Penguin
Books, New York, 1988.
Jats, The New Encylopaedia Britannica, Vol. Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.,
Chicago, pp. 510.
The Getae and the Dacians, and Sarmatae and Parthians, in The Cambridge
Ancient History, edited by S.A. Cook, F.E. Adcock, M.P. Charlesworth,
Vol. II, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1954.
Pradhan, M.C. (1966), The Political System of the Jats of Northern India,
Oxford University Press, London.
Ptolemy (90-168 A.D.), Geography of Claudius Ptolemy, translated and edited
by E.L. Stevenson, The New York Public Library, New York, 1932.
Mahil, U.S. (1955), Antiquity of Jat Race, Atma Ram & Sons, Delhi, India.
McCrindle, J.W. (1987), Ancient India as Described in Classical Literature,
reprinted by Eastern Book House, Patna, India, pp 164-165 (first
published 1901).
Mc Govern, W.N. (1939), The early Empires of Central Asia, he University of
North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, pp 419-21.
Pliny, (A.D. 23-79): Natural History, translated by H. Rackham, Harvard
University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1947.
Rolle, R. (1989), The World of the Scythians, University of California Press,
Berkeley.
Sara, I. (1978), The Scythian Origin of the Jat-SIkh (Part 1 & 2), The Sikh
Review, pp. 15-27, pp. 214-233.
Smith, V. A. (1903), The Kushana or Indo-Scythian Period in Indian History
(165 B.C.-320 A.D.), Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great
Britain and Ireland, pp. 1-64.
Tod, J.(1972), Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, Vol. 1, Routledge & Kegan
Paul Ltd., London, pp. 623(first published in 1829).
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Unknown
Deepak Sahrawat wrote in message <369909B0...@concentric.net>...
>sandeep wrote:
>>
>[...]
>>
>> Haryana's population is about 25 million, out of which at least 40% are
Punjabi
>> Hindus or Sikhs!
>>
>> Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
>>
>
>I dont think the 40% figure is accurate. Most Punjabi Hindus in Haryana
>live in the cities and their number is definitely much lower than that.
>Most of the Punjabis (both Hindu and Sikh) in Haryana were refugees who
>came over from E. Punjab during independence.
>
>[...]
>>
>> Muslim and Sikh Jutts are related to Haryanvi Jatts and Rajasthani
Jatts!! (In
>> Rajasthan there still are Bajju Jatts (as I am Bajwa), so are
>> there other tribes which are very similar to the Punjabi Jutt tribes.
>>
>
JATOFTHEPANJAB
of Man. Islam is for the sons of Man, which you are NOT for hiding your
tribal identity knowingly.
You are not a Muslim but a Mohammadan, who conceal their tribal identity.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
Unknown wrote in message
<916013437.7766.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>Does it really matter to you what my tribal identity is ?
>
>I am a Punjabi though not a Jatt but most importantly of all...I'm Muslim.
>
>JATOFTHEPANJAB wrote in message <77bbqb$aaa$2...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>>Hi Unknown,
>>
>>But you yourself is not disclosing your tribal identity please?
>>
>>Rajinder Nijjhar.
>>
>>
>>Unkown wrote in message <#hkT72CP#GA....@ntawwabp.compuserve.com>...
>>>
S Singh Sandhu
It really matters, tell us what clan/tribe u are from?
gan...@my-dejanews.com
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Khokars are Rajputs.
Almost all the Rajput clans you find in the northwest are
also Jat clans. We also know that Jats and other Sakas (e.g.
Gujars, Yadavs, Ahirs, etc.) historically precede Rajputs, whose
oldest geneologies date to 9th century and majority are a 11-16th
century phenomina. In fact, some later Hun derived Rajput clans
in southern Rajasthan were inventing fictitious lineages to
earlier Yadava-Saka imperial dynasties of southern Sakasthan
(south Rajasthan Gujarat region).
So a Rajput is really a "Saka mah dha jaya", regardless of
all the agni-lunar crap Brahmanoids whisper in their ears.
However, your assertion also displays a prejudice which
has been propagated by Brahmanist historical propaganda because
"casteized" Sakas (and Huns) were promoted as being "superior"
by the Brahmin priests in the aftermath of the destruction of Buddhism
and Brahmanical expansion by Shankarcharya (9-11th century AD).
Brahmanist historical fraud and canards against Sakas and Jats attempts to
i) Erase the history of Sakas and Sakasthan (500BC-1200AD) altogethor,
ii) Replace the real history of Rajput origins (post-10th century casteized
Sakas) with fanciful lunar/solar Brahmanical tales.
iii) Manipulate and pit Rajput Sakas against uncasteized Sakas like Jats and
Gujars who did not accepted Brahmanical supremacy/orthodoxy and held on to
their ancient Vedic-Saka social customs, cultural roots and political
institutions ( widow remarraige, elected Panchayat, Sarpanch, Khaap, Thok,
and Sarva Khaap).
iv) There is a systematic and bigoted attempt to denigrate non-casteized
Sakas (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, Yadavs, Awans, Meos, Khambohs, Tarkhans,
Lohars, etc.) as "sudras" and "mlechas" in revisionist shastras and in
modern Brahmanist history and "social engineering" (through Brahmanist
produced and controlled Hindi films, state-run television, press, education
system, etc.).
Despite all the mischevious Brahmanist propaganda of trying to paint Jats and
other Sakas as the underlings of Rajputs, the canards have never been able to
account for the most basic facts:
1) Almost ALL of Jat/Rajput tracts, lands and villages in the northwest
are non-intersecting (northern Rajasthan, Mathura, Agra, Haryana, Punjab
regions under Jat-Saka control; central/south Rajasthan, western MP and
hill regions under Rajput-Saka control).
2) Rajputs also have the worst and barren lands (sandy and hilly terrain)
while Jats have the most productive and valuable lands.
3) Jats and other Sakas in the vast and fertile Punjab plains never
lived under Rajput upstarts (95% of whom are a 11-16th century
phenomina) as attested directly by the 11th century historian of
Mahmud Ghazni. He clearly states in the Tarikh-i-Ferishta
(Ferishta, English Translation by Briggs) that the Afghan war in Punjab
was "against the Jats" and goes on to describe the engagements, which
involved naval warfare, that resulted in the defeat of Jat forces under
Raja JaiPala near Attock in 1027.
4) Jats maintained their ancient republican democratic institutions which
were non-monarchial (elected panchayat, sarpanch, thok, Sarva Khaap).
Monarchial set-ups were loved by the parasitic priests - one more reason to
hate the egalitarian spirited Sakas to called the Bahman a beggar - that he
was!
5) Even Punjabi Sufism and Sikhism, which developed in the Saka heartland
(the Sufis and Gurus wrote in Saka derived languages such as Saraiki dialect
of Punjabi and Brij), subsumed the Saka traditions, institutions and culture
(e.g. free langar, elected Punj Pyaras, elected Jathadar and misl on lines of
Saka traditions such as Panchayat, Sarpanch, Sarva Khaap and Thok).
6) Although the Brahmins never acquired the political, economic or
military position in Sakasthan to bring the non-conformist Sakas under
their domination in the post 9th century period, they spared no
opportunity to portray them as "mlechas" and "sudras" and availed every
effort to divide and pit the converted or casteized Sakas (i.e. Rajputs)
against their non-Brahmanized bretheren. To flatter the "superiority"
of their Rajput patrons and spew their wrath on defecting Rajput clans
and villages, the Brahmins invented cock and bull stories to explain
Rajput "downfall" which typically involves some Rana taking a Gujar or
Jat woman as a wife and hence losing his "Rajput status". Converts who
lost their faith in Brahmanical religio-social values and dogmas (e.g.
burning their widows) came back home to their more civilized and egalitarian
Saka-Vedic roots and culture!
These "decline tales" spun by Brahmins themselves admit to a historical
ethnic connection between these Saka groups for the Brahmin's Rana
overlords in Rajputana never seem to fathom marrying a Bania, Chamar or
Brahmin woman when foresaking their "high status" and taking their
"plunge" down the social grade.
Conclusion
----------
Destroying real history and replacing it with revisionist bigoted
fantasy and canards, frequently involving imaginary reincarnating devtas, is a
highly perfected but transparent Brahmanical skill !
Bhiya Mohajirs have also taken to this old time dasya gangu-habit full time,
with the ADDED twist of pushing their "two nation" fraud and imperialism
of creating a Mohajir Bhiya Sultanate in a big slice of Saka territory.
One thing is for sure: Sakas will have to write their own history books.
Kirars and Mohajirs are only bent on destroying and burying their
real history verified by archeology, coins, inscriptions and ancient
Buddhist/Greek/Tibetan/Chinese texts.
sandeep
Deepak Sahrawat wrote:
> sandeep wrote:
> >
> [...]
> >
> > Haryana's population is about 25 million, out of which at least 40% are Punjabi
> > Hindus or Sikhs!
> >
> > Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
> >
>
> I dont think the 40% figure is accurate. Most Punjabi Hindus in Haryana
> live in the cities and their number is definitely much lower than that.
The core Haryanvi group which is recognized with their Haryanvi accented Hindi only
livesin Districts of Rohtak, Hissar and Gurgaon!!
Districts like Karnal, Kurukshetra, Ambala, Jind (it was part of Kapurthala empire),
has more then 50% of Punjabis!!
Punjabi Hindus dominate cities while Sikhs in villages!!!!!
My grandfather (Nana) was alloted land in Karnal district after partition in a village
called Buddha Khera. (Actually all the people who were from
Gujranwala, Sheikhpura were settled in and around Karnal, that is why you will see
that Virk and Dhillon
dominate this area in countryside). My uncle (Mama) now lives in city of Karnala and
when I am in Karnal it
is do different from Batala, Amritsar or Mohali!! Same langauge!! Same people!! Only
difference is that
children do not know how to write Punjabi!! Everybody speaks punjabi!! as it is just
another punjabi city!! same
is true of Ambala!!
My uncle (Maasar) is from a village about 25 KM South of Karnal, near a small town
called Nisang!! so are at least
20-30 families (all Jutt Sikhs) I know and they are in villages!!!!!
> Most of the Punjabis (both Hindu and Sikh) in Haryana were refugees who
> came over from E. Punjab during independence.
They did not came over!! Government of India settled them after they had left lands in
Pakistan by giving them 1/10th of the lands
left behiind in Pakistan in India (that lands that were evacuated by Muslims leaving
for Pakistan, many Muslims did not left to Pakistan
from Haryana and even today there are many villages in Rohtak districts which are
majority Shia Muslims.)
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
S Singh Sandhu
if u include jats in afghanistan/ukraine/russia who are muslims,
i think there are more muslim jats.
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Sandeep,
>
>What is the predominant religion of the Jatt caste ? I mean are there more
>Hindu/Sikh/Muslim Jatts ? I know the majority of Sikhs are Jatt but are the
>majority of Jatts , Sikh ?
>
>What caste were the Gurus ?
>
>sandeep wrote in message <36993615...@home.com>...
>>
>>
>>> >
>>> >There are many Muslim Jatt tribes in Pakistan Punjab, some of my mothers
>>> >family are married to Jatts. But I don't know whether there are more
>Muslim
>>> >or Sikh Jatts ?
>>> >
>>> >Also, Sandeep...there are plenty of Hindu Jatts. I know a few myself. I
>>> >heard that Harayana was full of Hindu Jatts, is that true ?
>>
>Punjabi
>>Hindus or Sikhs!
>>
>>Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
>>
>Ambala is
>>that
>>all over countryside Sikhs and Hindu Jats live peacefully!! Even though
>most of
>>the Sikhs only
>>moved to Haryana after independence (when haryana was part of Punjab and
>were
>>given lands
>>left behind by Muslims who left for Pakistan) .
>>
>>attached to Delhi and Rajasthan.
>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> I would think there are more muslim jats , jats in afghanistan,
>>
>>All AFghanis are not Jats! they are from Greek Origin!! proof that before
>>Alexander invaded India,these tribes did not existed in that part of Iran
>(which
>>is now afghanistan). Greek generals settled here!
>>
>>There are many distinct groups of Afghanis!! Pashtuns which are "PAthans"
>as we
>>call them in India are
>>most likely Indian and Greek mixtures!!
>>
>>Others are Iran and Greek mixture , etc, etc!!
>>
>>Jats came into India much before Alexander and belong to Hun and other
>Germanic
>>tribes!! Juts are not related
>>in any way to Afghanis or Pathans!!
>>
>>
>>
>>> ukraine , and russia are all muslim ,of course converts.
>>> Btw the tallest people in india according to some study were
>>> the haryana jats , at abt 1.8m , however they beat the jatts only
>>> by 1-2 cm. The rest of the indians were too far behind to mention.
>>
>(In
>>Rajasthan there still are Bajju Jatts (as I am Bajwa), so are
>>there other tribes which are very similar to the Punjabi Jutt tribes.
>>
>>Rajasthan and then later moved upto current day Punjab,
>>Haryana and UP! (and now USA, Canada, UK, etc)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Unknown
(i) Why the hell then is Harayana a "Hindi" speaking state when its people
speak Punjabi ?
(ii) My original question.... are there more Muslim or Sikh Jutts ? The only
part of Pakistan I know where Jatts are majority is in Azad Kashmir (Mir
Pur, Muzzafarabad). Also around Faisalabad (Lyallpur) there are many Jatts.
The Arai tribe are also meant to be Jatts who changed their names upon
conversion to Islam. Alot of them used to live in the Jullundhur area before
partition.
sandeep wrote in message <369AAE6A...@home.com>...
>
>
>Deepak Sahrawat wrote:
>
>> sandeep wrote:
>> >
>> [...]
>> >
>> > Haryana's population is about 25 million, out of which at least 40% are
Punjabi
>> > Hindus or Sikhs!
>> >
>> > Rest are divided into many ethnic group, dominent one are Jat!!!
>> >
>>
>> > Muslim and Sikh Jutts are related to Haryanvi Jatts and Rajasthani
Jatts!! (In
>> > Rajasthan there still are Bajju Jatts (as I am Bajwa), so are
>> > there other tribes which are very similar to the Punjabi Jutt tribes.
>> >
>>
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 2 questions :
>
> (i) Why the hell then is Harayana a "Hindi" speaking state when its people
> speak Punjabi ?
>
Actually, the majority of its people speak Haryanvi, a dialect of Hindi.
Since Haryanvi is a spoken language, not a written one (just like Punjabi in
Pakistan), Hindi is the official written language of the state (as Urdu is
for Pakistani Punjabis).
The whole basis for separating Haryana from Punjab in the 1960's was spoken
language - in Punjab it's Punjabi, in Haryana it's Haryanvi Hindi. Just like
in Pakistan, certain districts are included in Punjab Province, even though
the spoken language is actually Seraiki, not Punjabi. Punjabi is not spoken
in all the districts which made up old Punjab (Pakistani Punjab, Indian
Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, and Jammu). There are other dialects too
(Seraiki, Hindko, Dogri, Pahari, etc.) For that matter isn't the dialect of
Rawalpindi quite different from regular Lahore/Amritsar variety Punjabi?
As Sandeep says, there are a lot of Punjabis living in Haryana who were
originally from West Punjab (Pakistan), but after Partition got settled in
Haryana. These folks speak Punjabi, but as Sandeep mentioned, do not write
it (at least the younger generation). Written Punjabi is only used (as a
state-supported medium, taught in schools) in Indian Punjab.
Rajwinder Singh
>Majority of Jats live in Rohtak, Hissar and Gurgaon and districts that are
>attached to Delhi and Rajasthan.
District Sirsa is almost completely Jat and Punjabi-speaking. Hissar and
Sirsa border Punjab (districts Mansa, Bathinda, Sangrur and Patiala).
rs
Unknown
Hindko.
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<77g8hb$hj5$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>...
gan...@my-dejanews.com
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <916126295.22627.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > 2 questions :
> >
> > (i) Why the hell then is Harayana a "Hindi" speaking state when its people
> > speak Punjabi ?
> >
>
> Actually, the majority of its people speak Haryanvi, a dialect of Hindi.
Actually Haryana (and HP) was taken out of Punjab through Kirar Bhiya
Brahmanist vile and the tri-partition policy was part and parcel of the
Casteocracy's anti-Jat, anti-Saka, anti-Punjab and anti-Punjabiyat policies
and political machinations. It was carried out by mischevious, supremacist
and imperialistic minded Bhiya-kirar politicians in Delhi who were in bed
with infiltration organizations (e.g. RSS, founded 1925) brought into the
historically separate northwest (90% of 3500 years) from Dasuland.
The so-called "haryanvi" dialect is just another Punjabi dialect
- like Saraiki, Multani, Malwi, Mahali, etc. - and is of Saka-Vedic
linguistic origin just as Punjabi, Brij, Rajasthani, Marathi, etc.
Even the Sufis and Gurus used both Saraiki Punjabi and Brij in the
Granth Sahib. Mathura, Sialkot, Jalandar, Peshawar, Moga, etc are
but a few of the historical cultural and religious centers of Sakasthana
Inscription at mathura/Peshawar state:
"Sarvasa Sakasthana Puyae" = "For the merit of the Sakasthani People".
There was historically no entity such as "Haryana" - until some mischevious
dasya bhiya from Benaras dreamed it up in the 1950s. RSS and other bhiya
infiltration organizations along with the Brahmanist state-run doordarshan and
the kirar press then breathed life into it through repitition of
these canards and fraud on the radio and newspapers.
Haryanvi Jats are Sakas of the same shared history, ethnicity, clans,
blood, culture - just like the Jats to their north, east, west and south.
The kirar regime's first priority after 1947 was to destroy the Saka
political stronghold in East Punjab by INVENTING and PROPAGATING rifts
between Sakas and the Jat tribe itself.
The endless kirar game of mischief, falsehood, vile and division:
Gujar vs. Rajput vs. Jat vs. "Hindu" Jat vs. "Sikh" Jat vs. Haryana
Jat vs. Punjabi Jat vs. Rajasthani Jat vs. Uttarkhand Jat vs. . . .
. . . and so on the kirar politics of division and mischief.
How come, one never hears of
Haryanvi kirar vs. Punjabi kirar vs. Bhiya Bania/Bahman vs. Rajasthani
kirar vs. Bongo Bania/Bahman vs. Tamil Bania/Bahman vs. malabari kirar
vs. . . .
They kirars are full of shit and hate all Saka - whatever label they
put on them for the time being to divide and manipulate them. All
Sakas should realize this TRUTH! Their actions, politics, policies, press and
history books bear this out.
The game is
1) separate and control,
2) divide and rule,
3) promise and betray,
4) repress their history,
5) pigonhole them into false identities with Brahmanist
historical fraud and spin (e.g. Ghori's 12th century "Hindus", "shudras").
Sakasthana has been converted into a colony for the plunder and
enjoyment of these former 7% massaleh walas and bateh walas.
Kirars, who ruled hatis when the brits came, now
- rule the country as Brown sahibs;
- hold over 95% of the top policy and managerial positions in the totally
rishwat-khori and corrupted govt, political system, beaurocracy,
state-run sector, media, press, academics, police and army;
- pillage the former British empire as if there is no tomorrow.
What is left of the private economy, is pillaged through
Permit Raj - where only kirars are allowed to invest and profit.
Sakas have been forced to sell their own production at prices fixed
(by Kirar officials and traders) 50% below international prices
while goods coming out of kirar shops/factories have no price
controls and sell at above world prices.
The 150 million Sakas have been totally looted and crushed - both
politically and economically. Majority of them are now in the same
league as groups like the BCs and dalits and are mostly confined to
the unskilled labor market.
The better among them sell the 5 acres left to buy a taxi! They
are not allowed into the new economic sectors and industries
brought by British under Permit Raj.
Sakas need to wake up and start
1) Confiscating all the loot extracted from them by harami kirars.
Local police can help here.
2) Get idiots like Badal, Bhajan Lal and Shekawat Singh to join
up with Sahib Singh and other Saka leaders (including Yadavs,
Gujars, etc.)
3) Form a political coalition under Saka unity to get some political
and economic danda.
4) Hold periodic conferences and meetings to discuss issues and
strategy (which should be put on the radio/television).
5) Start teaching Saka kids REAL Saka history in schools and get rid
of kirar history fraud from the education system, press and
doordarshan in Sakasthan.
> Since Haryanvi is a spoken language, not a written one (just like Punjabi in
> Pakistan), Hindi is the official written language of the state (as Urdu is
> for Pakistani Punjabis).
>
> The whole basis for separating Haryana from Punjab in the 1960's was spoken
> language - in Punjab it's Punjabi, in Haryana it's Haryanvi Hindi. Just like
Yeah right! Then why are they not taught "Haryanvi" in schools after 1967 ?
Instead they are being turned into dasya crowing bhiyas - linguistically
and culturally and losing their 2500 year old traditions/culture for
20th century dasya Bhiya fraud and fantasy.
> in Pakistan, certain districts are included in Punjab Province, even though
> the spoken language is actually Seraiki, not Punjabi. Punjabi is not spoken
> in all the districts which made up old Punjab (Pakistani Punjab, Indian
> Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, and Jammu). There are other dialects
Is "Hindi" spoken in all of UP! They need to draw some lines there.
By the way, the so-called "Hindi" is a mid-19th century creation of
Poorbia Brahmanists fanatics on their dasyas-go-Vedic fantasy trip
who used to learn Urdu and then began doing Sankrit surgury to it.
It was then propagated through kirar schools run by organizations like
RSS, Hindu-Mahasaba, Arya samaj, Brahmo-Samaj, etc. and made into a
new "Hindi language".
It is complete bastardization version of already bastardized Urdu!
Mo
they could get a chance to form a govt as they were only 20%
in the combined Punjab.
Dont blame Brahmins for the faults of the Sikhs..
Bholu
(Mo) wrote:
> gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >The so-called "haryanvi" dialect is just another Punjabi dialect<
> Fool it was the SIKHS who insisted on splitting Punjab so
> they could get a chance to form a govt as they were only 20%
> in the combined Punjab.
> Dont blame Brahmins for the faults of the Sikhs..
Be kind Mo, the Gandasa is on strong
medication and loses touch with reality
at the mere mention of Sakasthan. Damn
those Bahman Bhiyas, they can do tricks
to your mind.
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
gan...@my-dejanews.com
Mr. Malbari Rover. Or is it Grover?
Haryana is 50 miles from Patiala but 3000 miles from your
homeland of Malabar - from where your great great grandfather
Shankarcharya sent you to kill Buddhists on the subcontinent
in 1000 AD.
No, Hindi, Punjabi, Brij, Rajasthani, Marathi are not related
to YOUR mother tongue and genes.
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Didnt take long for all that "Haryanvi-Hindi" hot gas to fizzle out
> Mr. Malbari Rover. Or is it Grover?
>
> Haryana is 50 miles from Patiala but 3000 miles from your
> homeland of Malabar - from where your great great grandfather
> Shankarcharya sent you to kill Buddhists on the subcontinent
> in 1000 AD.
>
> No, Hindi, Punjabi, Brij, Rajasthani, Marathi are not related
> to YOUR mother tongue and genes.
That's funny, I thought I was from U.P. Who knew how wrong I could be?
Thanks for the clarification.
My claims about Haryanvi being a dialect of Hindi still stand. I can even
submit samples (paragraphs, short verses, etc) in Haryanvi to prove it. (By
the way, there is a lot of "ka ka ka" in it, so look out). But I've learned
that with Gurupdesh (also known as Gand-asshole-a), no sane, rational,
conclusive evidence will ever change his mind. It only drives him more
crazy.
Hey Gurupdesh, did you enjoy your trip to INDIA? Hahahahaha...
Bholu
be attributed to the treatment meted
to him on his official vist to see
Prime Minister Kishan Kanhaiya of
Jhumri Talaiya. The strategic partnership
between Jhumri and Kirar Empires
have adversely affected the security
of Sakasthana. Even with the intervention
of the Federation and a special message
from Snoop Doggy Dog, it is likely
that tandoori chicken may be in short
supply due increasing demand in Kirar
Empire.
gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Didnt take long for all that "Haryanvi-Hindi" hot gas to fizzle out
> Mr. Malbari Rover. Or is it Grover?
>
> Haryana is 50 miles from Patiala but 3000 miles from your
> homeland of Malabar - from where your great great grandfather
> Shankarcharya sent you to kill Buddhists on the subcontinent
> in 1000 AD.
>
> No, Hindi, Punjabi, Brij, Rajasthani, Marathi are not related
> to YOUR mother tongue and genes.
>
gan...@my-dejanews.com
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <77iph7$5ma$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Didnt take long for all that "Haryanvi-Hindi" hot gas to fizzle out
> > Mr. Malbari Rover. Or is it Grover?
> >
> > Haryana is 50 miles from Patiala but 3000 miles from your
> > homeland of Malabar - from where your great great grandfather
> > Shankarcharya sent you to kill Buddhists on the subcontinent
> > in 1000 AD.
> >
> > No, Hindi, Punjabi, Brij, Rajasthani, Marathi are not related
> > to YOUR mother tongue and genes.
>
> Thanks for the clarification.
You are currently from the former United Province (renamed Uttar
Pradesh in 1956) but that doesnt change the fact that your last
Law Giver from Malabar Shankarcharya) sent out his horde to destroy
Buddhism and kill Buddhits in th 9-10th century?
Even Gangetic Puranas "forbid Brahmins from Vahikadesa (northwest
country)!
So, you fellows arrived in "foreign country" just before Ghori and
Ghaznavi did. Even the oldesnt Brahmin temple in northwest
(Kashmir) date to only 10th century AD.
>
> My claims about Haryanvi being a dialect of Hindi still stand. I can even
Again before making more fudu claims, you have to take Hindi before
19th century when it was created from Urdu by Bhiya fanatics on
their dasya-go-vedic fantasy binge! There was no Hindi priod to
1840s, but Haryanvi - a dialect of Punjabi - is much older.
Now dont play the "ka ka ka" music to me again. Most of the
Haryanvi Jat clans are found in other districts of Punjab
and Rajasthan - but not in Gangasthan (territory east of Ganga).
So, their origins and history is invariably tied to the northwest
despite 1925 gangu-bhiya fantasies and fraud. Keep the fantasies
on that side of the Ganga border - as stated in your own Puranas!
> submit samples (paragraphs, short verses, etc) in Haryanvi to prove it. (By
> the way, there is a lot of "ka ka ka" in it, so look out). But I've learned
The post-1967 language or the authentic Haryanvi dialect distroyed
by FOREIGN bhiya frauds and their luney tune infiltration
organization such as RSS, Hindumahasaba!
The northwest country has been historically separate over 90% of its
3500 known history and there were no Bhiya empires in Sakasthan
but Saka dynasties like Kushanas and Jartas did rule in Gangasthan.
> that with Gurupdesh (also known as Gand-asshole-a), no sane, rational,
> conclusive evidence will ever change his mind. It only drives him more
> crazy.
You and your fixation and dillusion on "Gurupdesh".
You and your other dillusional bhiya friend Bholu belong in the same
padded cell. I sent MOR there to quiten him dowm. But he seems
to be one dumb bhiya and I have other work to do. So entertain
his for a while until I come back.
Next time.
Gandasa
PS. How come ancient bhiyas dont have a soc.culture.bhiya.
Jamil Raza
In West Punjab ALL Kokhar are Rajputs. Kokhars along with Bhattis are
the only Rajput clan found on the Punjab plains. All other Rajput clans
in West Punjab inhabit the hill regions of Rawalpindi and beyond.
Jamil
Jamil Raza
>
> 2 questions :
>
> (i) Why the hell then is Harayana a "Hindi" speaking state when its people
> speak Punjabi ?
> (ii) My original question.... are there more Muslim or Sikh Jutts ?
There are probably slightly more Muslim Jatts than Sikh ones.
> The only
> part of Pakistan I know where Jatts are majority is in Azad Kashmir (Mir
> Pur, Muzzafarabad).
Mirpur is historically a Rajput area. Muzaffrabad is predominantly
Gujjar, though, there are also significant number of Rajputs belonging
to the Kakh and Bamba clans.
> Also around Faisalabad (Lyallpur) there are many Jatts.
You seem to be basing your opinions on the people you have met in
England. Basically Jatts are the largest ethnic group in all areas of
West Punjab except Rawalpindi (which is Rajput), Mianwali
(Punjabi-speaking Niazi Pakhtun) and Dera Gazi Khan (Punjabi-speaking
Baluch). The Jatt heartland is the region around Lahore. Punjab above
Multan is predominantly Jatt and Gujjar, Punjab below Multan (i.e.
Siraiki-speaking areas) is predominantly Jatt and Baluch.
> The Arai tribe are also meant to be Jatts who changed their names upon
> conversion to Islam. Alot of them used to live in the Jullundhur area before
> partition.
Arains in Pakistan claim to be a sub-caste or tribe of the Jatts, a
claim which Jatts do not accept. Arains in England are making the
fantastic and historically untenable claim that they are the descendents
of Muhammad Bin Qasim's army.
Jamil
also write to
> So, you fellows arrived in "foreign country" just before Ghori and
> Ghaznavi did. Even the oldesnt Brahmin temple in northwest
> (Kashmir) date to only 10th century AD.
There are no temples or murtia mentioned in any Veda, so it makes sense
that the Sanatana Dharma would precede "the oldest Brahmin temple,"
whether it be a time difference of hundreds or thousands of years.
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> PS. How come ancient bhiyas dont have a soc.culture.bhiya.
>
Haven't you figured it out yet? It's called soc.culture.indian, sucka! Hey,
where's soc.culture.sakasthan?
gan...@my-dejanews.com
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
> Unknown wrote:
> >
> > Also around Faisalabad (Lyallpur) there are many Jatts.
>
> You seem to be basing your opinions on the people you have met in
> England. Basically Jatts are the largest ethnic group in all areas of
> West Punjab except Rawalpindi (which is Rajput), Mianwali
> (Punjabi-speaking Niazi Pakhtun) and Dera Gazi Khan (Punjabi-speaking
> Baluch). The Jatt heartland is the region around Lahore. Punjab above
> Multan is predominantly Jatt and Gujjar, Punjab below Multan (i.e.
> Siraiki-speaking areas) is predominantly Jatt and Baluch.
>
> > The Arai tribe are also meant to be Jatts who changed their names upon
> > conversion to Islam. Alot of them used to live in the Jullundhur area before
> > partition.
>
> Arains in Pakistan claim to be a sub-caste or tribe of the Jatts, a
> claim which Jatts do not accept. Arains in England are making the
> fantastic and historically untenable claim that they are the descendents
> of Muhammad Bin Qasim's army.
>
> Jamil
>
I say whichever Saka groups wants to be a Jat - let them be. Otherwise,
these petty clan-tribal skirmishes leads to the denigrated clan/group
mobolizing to get some mischevious Bahman/Maulvi to invent a "higher"
pedigree for them.
Jats can be too "proud" sometimes - for their own good.
My own theory is that so called "Rajputs" (a post 10th century phenomina)
were orignally "poorer" segment of Sakas (e.g. Jats. Gujars, etc.) who felt
slighted by the other Jats/Gujars holding better and more valuable lands in
Punjab/northern Rajasthan. I mentioned before that Jat lands are more fertile
while Rajput territory is on less productive sandy and hilly terrain.
This FRICTION provided the Brahmins a way to "infiltrate" Saka society after
Buddhism by taking bribes and patronage from the less privledged sections of
Sakas and doing social propaganda for them - inventing them as "superior
Rajputs". Then, they ganged up with the Afghans and Moguls south of Punjab
instead of helping Jats and benefitted from their patronage. The irony is
that Rajputs arose and prospored primarily due to their partnership with
Afghans/Moguls between 12-16th century.
Consequences, maybe promoted by Jat arrogance in the first place.
This would be similar to what you say about the Arians using some
Maulvi to become Qasim's descendents after Jats reject them. If
Jats let them be "Jats" - both will be better off.
I will bet that the Mohajirs are delighted at this discord !!!
Better to get all the Saka tribes into some sort of Saka Nation type
of thing and teach them a common history ?
What do you fellas think ?
Gandasa
sandeep
Jamil Raza wrote:
> Unknown wrote:
> >
> > 2 questions :
> >
> > (i) Why the hell then is Harayana a "Hindi" speaking state when its people
> > speak Punjabi ?
>
> > (ii) My original question.... are there more Muslim or Sikh Jutts ?
>
> There are probably slightly more Muslim Jatts than Sikh ones.
I think that Pakistan's population is 120 million out of which at least 70 million
are Punjabis!!
Are Jutts majority among Punjabis in Pakistan?
In Indian punjab, population is 20 million, out of which 14 million are Sikhs and
at least 60% of Sikhs are Jutts.
I say there are about 8 million jutts in Indian punjab.
60% of all Sikhs are Jutts! total number of Sikhs worldwide is 25 million!!!! so
Total number of Sikh Jutts (60%)
are 15 million worldwide according to rough estimates!!
How many are Jutts out of 70 million Punjabi muslims? I guess about the same
number many be little less!!!
> > The only
> > part of Pakistan I know where Jatts are majority is in Azad Kashmir (Mir
> > Pur, Muzzafarabad).
I don't think any Jutt ever lived in Kashmir!! Only dogras Rajputs, Kashmiri
Pundit and some Iranians have lived there!
> Mirpur is historically a Rajput area. Muzaffrabad is predominantly
> Gujjar, though, there are also significant number of Rajputs belonging
> to the Kakh and Bamba clans.
>
> > Also around Faisalabad (Lyallpur) there are many Jatts.
>
> You seem to be basing your opinions on the people you have met in
> England. Basically Jatts are the largest ethnic group in all areas of
> West Punjab except Rawalpindi (which is Rajput), Mianwali
> (Punjabi-speaking Niazi Pakhtun) and Dera Gazi Khan (Punjabi-speaking
> Baluch). The Jatt heartland is the region around Lahore. Punjab above
> Multan is predominantly Jatt and Gujjar, Punjab below Multan (i.e.
> Siraiki-speaking areas) is predominantly Jatt and Baluch.
Jutt are farmers and Zamindars!! like Virk, Bajwa, Sandhu, Chattha, Ghuman, Nakai,
Brar, Deol, Dhillon, Randhawa, Nijjar, etc
I doubt if Jutts are more then 10% of total punjabi population!!!! Jutts, Khatris,
and others are about equal numbers!!
> > The Arai tribe are also meant to be Jatts who changed their names upon
> > conversion to Islam. Alot of them used to live in the Jullundhur area before
> > partition.
>
> Arains in Pakistan claim to be a sub-caste or tribe of the Jatts, a
> claim which Jatts do not accept. Arains in England are making the
> fantastic and historically untenable claim that they are the descendents
> of Muhammad Bin Qasim's army.
Yeah right!! Jutts have nothing to do with any Arabian invaders!!! Especially
nephew of Mohammad who invaded their motherland!!!!
>
>
> Jamil
No wonder most Muslim Jutts are pseudo Jutts only in name! ever since they adopted
the arabian practices of Mohammad!!
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
Unknown
all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the Pakistani
community here in UK. Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
condoning that atittude...just pointing out that it exists.
As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then I
can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us, Jatt
= Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
scale. Yet Sikhs seem to take such pride at being Jatt -all the bhangra
songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
All my Araian friends claim that they are descended from Muhammad Bin Qasim
and his army. That is as likely as the story that my tribe ( for MR
Nijjar...I'm NOT saying which one that is) are descended from Hazarat Ali
(RA) and one of his wives.
My mother's family are Mir which and are Kashmiri. Mir in Kashmiri means
prince. The family moved down into Punjab from Sri Nagar at the end of the
last century in order to escape from the vicious anti-muslim dogra rule.
Anyone know anything about the Mir tribe ?
Also the population of Pakistan is 135 million, not 120 million. Of which
around 56% (76 million) is Punjabi.
And lastly, but not least...Sandeep...why aren't Sikhs pseudo-Jatts ? Sikhs
have abandoned the idol worshipping of their Hindu forefathers so do the
Hindu Jatts have every right to call Sikhs "sell-outs" as well ?
sandeep wrote in message <369D4133...@home.com>...
Mo
Punjabis -Muslims /Sikhs and Hindus . Do the Hindus go round
today saying they are the master race ?
No . Only Jat Sardars and Muslims . Monotheism promotes
narrow mindness , irrationality and arrogance - Gandasa is a
prime example :)..
ju...@hotmail.com
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arrey..I'm telling you guys...in Azad Kashmir...Mir Pur, Muzaffarabad and
> all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
>
> In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
> from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
> regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the Pakistani
> community here in UK. Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
Why is this discussion continuing? We who are sikh juts know this much: when
it came to constituency of the khalsa army, of the armed forces of sikh
misls, of banda bahadurs brief struggle, and of recent indian wars, and of
indian struggle of independence, there has been a preponderence of sikh
involvement, and in that, a prominent jat involvement. Now obviously neither
hindu nor muslims care about it, wish to acknowledge it, or are educated
about it or part of the ethos or viewpoint of our background. The muslims
still have a schizophrenic amnesia of sikh rule of punjab. For the above to
have any reason to involve himself in this issue is interesting. I would
merely say piss off, be glad we don't have the leadership, desire or post
nuclear scenario to kick your pathetic bigoted asses again......
Unknown
ju...@hotmail.com wrote in message <77lp1a$nnh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Unknown
for over 500 years ?
gan...@my-dejanews.com
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arrey..I'm telling you guys
That "Arrey" gives you away "Unknown" - your are a Mohajar
pretending to be a Punjabi. Probably a Freudian slip eh Bhiya!
Now playing that "total absorption in Islam game" to run
a big slice of Saka territory. We will talk about
"total absorption" once you learn the Islamic language
Arabic. Prophet laid the law that a true Muslim must
know Arabic.
Until then, you are just a Kafir - no matter how many Jilbabs
you bhiyas wear.
sandeep
> As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then I
> can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
> venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us, Jatt
> = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
> scale. Yet Sikhs seem to take such pride at being Jatt -all the bhangra
> songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
Because Pakistani society is a feudal society unlike Indian Punjab's society!!
Jutts are not the owner of lands in Pakistani punjabi but Khatri Zamindars and
Chaudhary's who
insist that their lineage is from some Arabian barbarian invader, as oppose to
Jutts who are natives and thus are
looked down upon!!!
Jatt is not a caste!! Jatt is a profession!! Jatt in Punjabi society signifies!!
Love,
Hard work,
Labour,
Honesty,
Openness,
free,
fierce,
independence
That is why in Indian punjab which is free of feudal society everything that is
connected to the lowest strata of life is glorified
as oppose to Pakistan where feudal lords rule (who think that their ancestors
defeated the natives and are thus masters)
for me Muslims and British are SAME!! Similar type of people!! WHY?? Both came
to India, occupied it and left their
imprint! you are are part of that too!! As oppose to myself!! I do not belong to
any foreign invader's caste, creed, or culture!!
My ancestors came into this land and made it their motherland, they did not
shove down their beliefs on the locals! neither did they
humiliated them!! (like Muslims and British do to indians) !!!
>
>
> All my Araian friends claim that they are descended from Muhammad Bin Qasim
> and his army. That is as likely as the story that my tribe ( for MR
> Nijjar...I'm NOT saying which one that is) are descended from Hazarat Ali
> (RA) and one of his wives.
Sure!! Mr. Nijjar is not interested in your tribe because according to him if
you are not Jutt you are enemy!! :)
> My mother's family are Mir which and are Kashmiri. Mir in Kashmiri means
> prince. The family moved down into Punjab from Sri Nagar at the end of the
> last century in order to escape from the vicious anti-muslim dogra rule.
> Anyone know anything about the Mir tribe ?
Sure! before that your mother's ancestors were probably made muslims by force
either by Jahangir or by Aurungzeb.
> Also the population of Pakistan is 135 million, not 120 million. Of which
> around 56% (76 million) is Punjabi.
>
> And lastly, but not least...Sandeep...why aren't Sikhs pseudo-Jatts ? Sikhs
> have abandoned the idol worshipping of their Hindu forefathers so do the
> Hindu Jatts have every right to call Sikhs "sell-outs" as well ?
Once again!! Hindus are Idol worshippers so are you!! You face Kaba five times a
day and worship only one Big black stone!!Hindus put small stones in their
houses and worship them!! what is the difference?
Also!! Sikhism was made in Punjab and propagated by Punjabis as oppose to Islam
which is foreign and does not even allow
Punjabis to keep their Punajbi names!! :)
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
sba...@home.com
sandeep
Mo wrote:
and off course you too!!!
--
To read everything about Sikh History Please
visit <br>
<a href="http://www.sikh-history.com">www.sikh-history.com</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.hallbazaar.com/hallbazaar.html">Visit Hallbazaar
</a>
<br>
<a href="http://www.sikh-history.com">Best sites on Internet</a>
S Singh Sandhu
Jatt is not a profession , simply because u can't become a jatt
by changing profession.
ju...@hotmail.com
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wow..what a rational argument...
>
> *************
It is not an argument.....it is a statement of opinion. I do not attempt to
tell you what to think, merely what I think of inane little comments like the
one you submitted below. I think such comments deserve a reply in kind. If
you are not jat/jut, why not leave the topic alone. If you are, then too bad.
Otherwise, posting on such forums is a freedom afforded to all......
> >> In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
> >> from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
> >> regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the
> Pakistani
> >> community here in UK. Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
> >>**********
> >
> >Why is this discussion continuing? We who are sikh juts know this much:
> when
> >it came to constituency of the khalsa army, of the armed forces of sikh
> >misls, of banda bahadurs brief struggle, and of recent indian wars, and of
> >indian struggle of independence, there has been a preponderence of sikh
> >involvement, and in that, a prominent jat involvement. Now obviously
> neither
> >hindu nor muslims care about it, wish to acknowledge it, or are educated
> >about it or part of the ethos or viewpoint of our background. The muslims
> >still have a schizophrenic amnesia of sikh rule of punjab. For the above to
> >have any reason to involve himself in this issue is interesting. I would
> >merely say piss off, be glad we don't have the leadership, desire or post
> >nuclear scenario to kick your pathetic bigoted asses again......
> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
gan...@my-dejanews.com
sba...@home.com wrote:
>
>
> > As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then I
> > can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
> > venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us, Jatt
> > = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
Is there a word for "peasant" in Punjabi?
You are sometimes such an ignoramus that I wonnder if your
ever read the tons of information I provide on Sakas - Jats, Gujars,
etc. - ruling the northwest Sakasthana from almost 500BC-11,12th
century AD. And then restablishing control in the 18-19th century
until Brits gobbled the region up.
Even the personal historian (Feristha) of Mahmud Ghaznavi in the 11th century
writes in the Tarike-e-Feristha that the Afghan war was "agianst the
Jats" in which the Jat forces under Raja Jaipala were defeated near
Attock and there were naval engagements in the Punjabi rivers - all
described by the eyewitness account of Mahmud's historian.
If you keep your stupidity up, I am going to come down HARD on you.
Take this as a guarantee, Sandeep virah!
> > scale. Yet Sikhs seem to take such pride at being Jatt -all the bhangra
> > songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
>
> Because Pakistani society is a feudal society unlike Indian Punjab's society!!
>
> Jutts are not the owner of lands in Pakistani punjabi but Khatri Zamindars and
> Chaudhary's who
Khatri Zamindars - that is a new one!
> insist that their lineage is from some Arabian barbarian invader, as oppose to
> Jutts who are natives and thus are
> looked down upon!!!
Again your are displaying your ignorance. Khatris were mostly
traders - not LANDOWNERS! Check the British land revenue taxation
records of 19th century - most of the land in Punjab was held by Saka
tribes like Jats, Gujars, Rajputs, Arrai, Awan, Ghakkars, etc!
Chaudhary is a Saka title; other Jat-Saka institutions include
Punchayat, Sarpanch, Thok, Sarva Khaap.
Even the land that the Sodhi Khatris was given to them
by a clan of Bhullar Jats who had high respect for Guru Nanak!
Due to such gifts, some Khatris - especially Mahants - acquired
land. But the British records from 19th century AND COMMON KNOWLEDGE
(in Punjab has) clearly show that Jats owned the major chunk of the
land in Punjab - west and east - followed by other groups.
Most of the traditional folklore of Punjab views the Jat as a hero
(surma) and he is mentioned so frequently for his courage and daring
- although sometimes also for his foolishness. Like you are
now (assuming you are a Jat).
Post 1925 RSS Kirar-Bhiya driven propaganda is another matter though!
>
> Jatt is not a caste!! Jatt is a profession!! Jatt in Punjabi society
Jat is a Saka tribe stupid. Sakas in northwest never practiced
the Chatur-varna-caste system from Gangaland. They were Buddhists
and had their own religious traditions (Sun Worship), social system
and order, etc. prior to Brahmanical expansion of Shankarcharya (9-11th
century). They condidered farming and soldiering to be the "noble
professions". Major Jat and other Saka dynasties from 300 BC onward
to 11th century include the Mauryas, Chastanas, Kushanas, Jauvalas, Jartas
(misnamed "Guptas"), Virkas (last Raja HarshaVardhana), AnangPala,
JaiPala etc.
Gandasa
PS. Please read the posts on Saka and Jat history. Your continued
ignorance (or mischief) is becoming increasingly embarassing
for both Sikhs and Jats!
JATOFTHEPANJAB
gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <77jna2$lv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <369D18...@sun.leeds.ac.uk>,
> ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
>> Unknown wrote:
>> >
>>
>> You seem to be basing your opinions on the people you have met in
>> England. Basically Jatts are the largest ethnic group in all areas of
>> West Punjab except Rawalpindi (which is Rajput), Mianwali
>> (Punjabi-speaking Niazi Pakhtun) and Dera Gazi Khan (Punjabi-speaking
>> Baluch). The Jatt heartland is the region around Lahore. Punjab above
>> Multan is predominantly Jatt and Gujjar, Punjab below Multan (i.e.
>> Siraiki-speaking areas) is predominantly Jatt and Baluch.
>>
>> > conversion to Islam. Alot of them used to live in the Jullundhur area
before
>> > partition.
>>
>> Arains in Pakistan claim to be a sub-caste or tribe of the Jatts, a
>> claim which Jatts do not accept. Arains in England are making the
>> fantastic and historically untenable claim that they are the descendents
>> of Muhammad Bin Qasim's army.
>>
>>
>
>I say whichever Saka groups wants to be a Jat - let them be. Otherwise,
>these petty clan-tribal skirmishes leads to the denigrated clan/group
>mobolizing to get some mischevious Bahman/Maulvi to invent a "higher"
>pedigree for them.
>
>Jats can be too "proud" sometimes - for their own good.
>
>My own theory is that so called "Rajputs" (a post 10th century phenomina)
>were orignally "poorer" segment of Sakas (e.g. Jats. Gujars, etc.) who felt
>slighted by the other Jats/Gujars holding better and more valuable lands in
>Punjab/northern Rajasthan. I mentioned before that Jat lands are more
fertile
>while Rajput territory is on less productive sandy and hilly terrain.
>
>This FRICTION provided the Brahmins a way to "infiltrate" Saka society
after
>Buddhism by taking bribes and patronage from the less privledged sections
of
>Sakas and doing social propaganda for them - inventing them as "superior
>Rajputs". Then, they ganged up with the Afghans and Moguls south of Punjab
>instead of helping Jats and benefitted from their patronage. The irony is
>that Rajputs arose and prospored primarily due to their partnership with
>Afghans/Moguls between 12-16th century.
>
>Consequences, maybe promoted by Jat arrogance in the first place.
>
>This would be similar to what you say about the Arians
Arians are Sainis who became Mohammadans. One cannot change one's tribe and
so they are sons of Al-djmar al-wusta of Mina.
>using some
>Maulvi to become Qasim's descendents
But they are Sainis.
> after Jats reject them. If
>Jats let them be "Jats" - both will be better off.
>
>I will bet that the Mohajirs are delighted at this discord !!!
>
>Better to get all the Saka tribes into some sort of Saka Nation type
>of thing and teach them a common history ?
>
>What do you fellas think ?
>
>Gandasa
>
S Singh Sandhu
gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
Jats were a same group of people like the rajputs , pathans , they were not described as peasants or farmers by muslim
visitors.I'm not sure when they decided to start tilling the land.
S Singh Sandhu
sandeep <sba...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
>> As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then I
>> can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
>> venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us, Jatt
>> = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
>> songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
>
>Because Pakistani society is a feudal society unlike Indian Punjab's society!!
>
>Jutts are not the owner of lands in Pakistani punjabi but Khatri Zamindars and
>Chaudhary's who
>Jutts who are natives and thus are
>looked down upon!!!
>
sikh history and quite comprehensive at that, i was wondering why
not start to go deeper into history of the different peoples of
punjab , the tribes , etc .. that would be even more interesting
as sikhism is quite recent and most sikhs don't know much before
that. The books on jats/punjabi races are not easy to get
Mo
rafiqs...@my-dejanews.com
bomb (self proclaimed)Panjabis and muslim wanna bes who live on the other
side of the border....all they are is unhygenic, unshaved and not to mention
*very* *very* ugly dravidians...I mean both the hindu hindus and sikh hindus.
Rafiq Shabaaz "zindabad Pakistan"
In article <77oh5c$4m5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <369EB0C3...@home.com>,
> sba...@home.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > > As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then
I
> > > can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
> > > venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us,
Jatt
> > > = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
>
> Is there a word for "peasant" in Punjabi?
>
> You are sometimes such an ignoramus that I wonnder if your
> ever read the tons of information I provide on Sakas - Jats, Gujars,
> etc. - ruling the northwest Sakasthana from almost 500BC-11,12th
> century AD. And then restablishing control in the 18-19th century
> until Brits gobbled the region up.
>
> Even the personal historian (Feristha) of Mahmud Ghaznavi in the 11th century
> writes in the Tarike-e-Feristha that the Afghan war was "agianst the
> Jats" in which the Jat forces under Raja Jaipala were defeated near
> Attock and there were naval engagements in the Punjabi rivers - all
> described by the eyewitness account of Mahmud's historian.
>
> If you keep your stupidity up, I am going to come down HARD on you.
>
> Take this as a guarantee, Sandeep virah!
>
> > > scale. Yet Sikhs seem to take such pride at being Jatt -all the bhangra
> > > songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
> >
> > Because Pakistani society is a feudal society unlike Indian Punjab's
society!!
> >
> > Jutts are not the owner of lands in Pakistani punjabi but Khatri Zamindars
and
> > Chaudhary's who
>
> Khatri Zamindars - that is a new one!
>
> > insist that their lineage is from some Arabian barbarian invader, as oppose
to
> > Jutts who are natives and thus are
> > looked down upon!!!
>
> Again your are displaying your ignorance. Khatris were mostly
> traders - not LANDOWNERS! Check the British land revenue taxation
> records of 19th century - most of the land in Punjab was held by Saka
> tribes like Jats, Gujars, Rajputs, Arrai, Awan, Ghakkars, etc!
> Chaudhary is a Saka title; other Jat-Saka institutions include
> Punchayat, Sarpanch, Thok, Sarva Khaap.
>
> Even the land that the Sodhi Khatris was given to them
> by a clan of Bhullar Jats who had high respect for Guru Nanak!
> Due to such gifts, some Khatris - especially Mahants - acquired
> land. But the British records from 19th century AND COMMON KNOWLEDGE
> (in Punjab has) clearly show that Jats owned the major chunk of the
> land in Punjab - west and east - followed by other groups.
>
> Most of the traditional folklore of Punjab views the Jat as a hero
> (surma) and he is mentioned so frequently for his courage and daring
> - although sometimes also for his foolishness. Like you are
> now (assuming you are a Jat).
>
> Post 1925 RSS Kirar-Bhiya driven propaganda is another matter though!
>
> >
> > Jatt is not a caste!! Jatt is a profession!! Jatt in Punjabi society
>
ju...@hotmail.com
rafiqs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> There is a world of a difference between Muslim Panjabis and those stink
> bomb (self proclaimed)Panjabis and muslim wanna bes who live on the other
> side of the border....all they are is unhygenic, unshaved and not to mention
> *very* *very* ugly dravidians...I mean both the hindu hindus and sikh hindus.
> Rafiq Shabaaz "zindabad Pakistan"
>
Yeah right......this coming from a kabba worshipping, maulvi ass licking,
converted (by the way asshole, who do you think had more balls and guts: your
lilly ancestors who converted or ours who said, we die before converting to
your narrow minded backward ways?)sob: sorry to say, you are just as ugly,
more unhygenic likely, and sadly enough, probably have just the same
bastardized genes. May be your name should read...Rafiq shithead "zindabad
choothisthan".
Jamil Raza
>
> Oh yeah...why should we be hung up over 50 years of Sikh rule when we ruled
> for over 500 years ?
>
Punjabis brothers, please take in easy on our friend, Unknown. He is
another victim of a Kashmiri kamee toilet-cleaner called Sheikh Muhammad
Iqbal who taught Muslim Punjabis to worship and idolize the torturers
and humiliaters of our forefathers.
Jamil
> ju...@hotmail.com wrote in message <77lp1a$nnh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <916278430.3783.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> > "Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Arrey..I'm telling you guys...in Azad Kashmir...Mir Pur, Muzaffarabad and
> >> all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
> >>
> >> In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
> >> from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
> >> regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the
> Pakistani
> >> community here in UK. Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
> >>**********
> >
> >Why is this discussion continuing? We who are sikh juts know this much:
> when
> >it came to constituency of the khalsa army, of the armed forces of sikh
> >misls, of banda bahadurs brief struggle, and of recent indian wars, and of
> >indian struggle of independence, there has been a preponderence of sikh
> >involvement, and in that, a prominent jat involvement. Now obviously
> neither
> >hindu nor muslims care about it, wish to acknowledge it, or are educated
> >about it or part of the ethos or viewpoint of our background. The muslims
> >still have a schizophrenic amnesia of sikh rule of punjab. For the above to
> >have any reason to involve himself in this issue is interesting. I would
> >merely say piss off, be glad we don't have the leadership, desire or post
> >nuclear scenario to kick your pathetic bigoted asses again......
> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
Jamil Raza
>
> > As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then I
> > can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
> > venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us, Jatt
> > = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
> > songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
>
> Because Pakistani society is a feudal society unlike Indian Punjab's society!!
>
> Jutts are not the owner of lands in Pakistani punjabi but Khatri Zamindars and
> Chaudhary's who
> Jutts who are natives and thus are
> looked down upon!!!
Take it easy! The "Chaudhrys" are Muslim Jatts! Chaudhry is an honorific
title used by the Muslim Jatt tribal chiefs in West Punjab, and not a
single one claims foriegn descent.
> Jatt is not a caste!! Jatt is a profession!! Jatt in Punjabi society signifies!!
>
Actually, you're wrong. Jatt is a tribe.
Jamil
Jamil Raza
> Maulvi to become Qasim's descendents after Jats reject them. If
> Jats let them be "Jats" - both will be better off.
>
> I will bet that the Mohajirs are delighted at this discord !!!
>
> Better to get all the Saka tribes into some sort of Saka Nation type
> of thing and teach them a common history ?
>
> What do you fellas think ?
>
> Gandasa
Punjabi society is tribalist and casteist to the core, which probably
explains why we've been colonial subjects of foriegners for so many
centuries until the reign of Sher-e-Punjab Ranjeet Singh. Tribalism is a
fact of life that we can't simply wish away. I don't think that things
are as straight forward as Jatt vs Brahmin. In fact historically Jatts
were often allied with Brahmins against the rest of Punjabis. There are
many historical anecdotes and tradtions in Punjab that lump Jatts and
Brahmins together as the oppressors of the rest of the population.
In West Punjab society is split between those tribes who hold onto to
their original Hindu-Buddhist identities ( the true Punjabis i.e.
Jatts, Gujjars and Awans) and those who are now claiming fake foriegn
"Islamic" descents (Rajputs, Kashmiris, Arains) and who are allied with
those of geniune foriegn descent (Mughals, Quereshis,Shirazis etc)
We Muslim Jatts regard these "Islamic" tribes as foriegners and
non-Punjabi garbage. We are the sons of Jaipal and the true sons of
Punjab, while they are the sons of central asian and middle eastern
perverts. The Muslim Jatt has been drugged senseless since the creation
of Pakistan, but we will have our day, don't worry. Chaudhry Shujaat
Hussain Gondal, the prince of Chaudhrys and the pride of the Jatt tribe,
is leading a Jatt revival. Our enenmies had better watch out.
Jamil
Jamil Raza
>
> In article <916356063.6019.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Wow..what a rational argument...
> >
> > *************
>
> It is not an argument.....it is a statement of opinion. I do not attempt to
> tell you what to think, merely what I think of inane little comments like the
> one you submitted below. I think such comments deserve a reply in kind. If
> you are not jat/jut, why not leave the topic alone. If you are, then too bad.
> Otherwise, posting on such forums is a freedom afforded to all......
Alas, this is only too true. It's easy to say anything on usenet,
especially under a Burqah. But beleive me, the situation in Punjab
itself is quite different. We Jatts refer to Kashmiris, Rajputs, Mughals
and Arains as our Kammees. Kamee means menial worker. In the old Punjab
most of the trade was in the hands of Khatri Hindus and Tarkhan Sikhs
and most of the land was owned by Muslim Jatts (the Chaudhrys) these
other tribes worked as labourers on our lands. They still do in 90% of
Punjab. But the ones who have moved abroad hear all sorts of cock and
bull stories from the parents who are under the influence of the Great
Whore-murderer and delusional, Sheikh Iqbal. This idiot proudly claims
half Kashmiri descent on soc.culture.punjab totally ignorant of the fact
that Kashmiris are among the lowest status tribes in West Punjab.
Jamil
jamil...@my-dejanews.com
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arrey..I'm telling you guys...in Azad Kashmir...Mir Pur, Muzaffarabad and
> all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
>
> from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
> regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the Pakistani
> community here in UK. Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
Yes, it is true that Punjabis hold a very low opinion of people from Mirpur
and Rawalpindi. Yet another sad example of Pakistani society disintegrating
into hundreds of sects, clans etc that hate and despise each other. But the
reason for this low opnion for Mirpuris and Pindi-waals has nothing to do
with them being Jatts, like I said Mirpur and Rawalpindi are famous Rajput
areas, though obviosly there are Jatts in these areas too. The main reason
for Punjabi low opinion of these people is their language. The Punjabi
dialect of Rawalpindi and Mirpur is known as Pothohari.( Mirpuris and
Pindi-waals are the same as far as most of us other Punjabis are concerned,
despite Pothori attempts to pretend otherwise) Most Punjabis can't hear a
line of Potohari-Mirpuri without breaking out into laughter. Things like
"Kuthay julyaN, papa?" and "MaRee ThaRee", "Micki Thicki" leave the rest of
us in stitches. Its all very disgusting and I totally condem my own people
for the way they make fun of people from Mirpur and Rawalpindi. I apologize
to you for their behaviour.
> As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so,
What you think doesn't count for shit. I am a Punjabi and have lived in Punjab
for a long time. How many times have you been to Punjab?
> but then I
> can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi).
Like I said, Rawalpindi is a Rajput area, famous for its dialect.
>Why is the Jatt caste so
> venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ?
> For us, Jatt
> = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
> scale.
You have a marvellous sense of humour. I've noticed many of you low caste
Punjabis in England attempting to rubbish Jatts, mostly under the influence
of your bitter parents who still retain many memories of life under the Jatt
landlords of Punjab.. Visit Pakistan to dispel all illusions. You'll find
that things are quite different there. The garbage spread by whore-murderer
Iqbal is powerful, but not as powerful as social and economic ground
realities. And the those ground realities are that the Jatt is the master of
desh Punjab.
> Yet Sikhs seem to take such pride at being Jatt -all the bhangra
> songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
Because Jatts are the purest Punjabis. Jatts own nearly all of the best land
in Punjab and whenever Punjab has been ruled by a Punjabi and not a foreign
Turk, that Punjabi has always been a Jatt.
> All my Araian friends claim that they are descended from Muhammad Bin Qasim
> and his army. That is as likely as the story that my tribe ( for MR
> Nijjar...I'm NOT saying which one that is) are descended from Hazarat Ali
> (RA) and one of his wives.
You and your friends are clowns.
> My mother's family are Mir which and are Kashmiri. Mir in Kashmiri means
> prince. The family moved down into Punjab from Sri Nagar at the end of the
> last century in order to escape from the vicious anti-muslim dogra rule.
> Anyone know anything about the Mir tribe ?
The landowning castes of Punjab ie Jatts, Gujjars, Rajputs and Awans, refer to
Kashmiris as "Kammees". Kammee means slave. Kashmiris traditionally work as
bonded labourers and farm hands on the estates of Jatt Chaudhrys. Kashmiris
occupy one of the lowest places in the Punjabi social order, somewhere between
Chewras-Chammars and Kasais and Nais. We Jatt Chaudhrys often take Kashmiri
women as concubines.
> Also the population of Pakistan is 135 million, not 120 million. Of which
> around 56% (76 million) is Punjabi.
>
> And lastly, but not least...Sandeep...why aren't Sikhs pseudo-Jatts ? Sikhs
> have abandoned the idol worshipping of their Hindu forefathers so do the
> Hindu Jatts have every right to call Sikhs "sell-outs" as well ?
There are virtually no Hindu Jatts today, only Sikhs and Muslims. Though Sikh
and Muslim Jatts proudly retain many of the cultural traditions of their great
Hindu forefathers.
Jamil
Unknown
Why don't you ask Sandeep if he regards you as a "brother Punjabi" ?
sandeep
> sikh history and quite comprehensive at that, i was wondering why
> not start to go deeper into history of the different peoples of
> punjab , the tribes , etc .. that would be even more interesting
> as sikhism is quite recent and most sikhs don't know much before
> that. The books on jats/punjabi races are not easy to get
That is my ultimate goal to have a site where everyone can trace their ancestory and
heritage!!
I remember one British scholar has a very very detailed book about each and every
class/caste/profession
in Punjab. University of Pittsburgh has it! I might be able to do something!
(Also I believe that by declaring "Castes" as "proefssions" we can remove the ugly
stigma attached to them)
Most of these castes are actually professions!! As
Majority of Jutts are farmers
Majority of Khatris are businessmen
Majority of Ramgarhias are carpenters
etc etc
sandeep
> title used by the Muslim Jatt tribal chiefs in West Punjab, and not a
> single one claims foriegn descent.
>
> > Jatt is not a caste!! Jatt is a profession!! Jatt in Punjabi society signifies!!
> >
>
> Actually, you're wrong. Jatt is a tribe.
Jatt is a tribe but majority of Jatts are Farmers!! so what does Jatt means then??
Also I believe that by declaring that these "castes" are actually profession we can
remove
ugly stigma attached to them!!
What is to stop a Chamar to be as proud as a Jatt!!!! By declaring that Chamar and
Jatt are
both "Ancestorial profession" and worthy to be proud of, lot can be achieved!!
Fact is that in today's society in Punjab, Jatts, Tarkhans, Khatris, Chamars,
MAzhabis, RAnghretas, etc
cannot live without each other and each is essential part of Punjabi society! and each
have their own profession!!
Remember at one time Jatts were looked down upon (in East Punjab, 500 years ago),
before
they came into Sikhism of Nanak!!
sandeep
> explains why we've been colonial subjects of foriegners for so many
> centuries until the reign of Sher-e-Punjab Ranjeet Singh. Tribalism is a
> fact of life that we can't simply wish away. I don't think that things
> are as straight forward as Jatt vs Brahmin. In fact historically Jatts
> were often allied with Brahmins against the rest of Punjabis. There are
> many historical anecdotes and tradtions in Punjab that lump Jatts and
> Brahmins together as the oppressors of the rest of the population.
>
> In West Punjab society is split between those tribes who hold onto to
> their original Hindu-Buddhist identities ( the true Punjabis i.e.
> Jatts, Gujjars and Awans) and those who are now claiming fake foriegn
> "Islamic" descents (Rajputs, Kashmiris, Arains) and who are allied with
> those of geniune foriegn descent (Mughals, Quereshis,Shirazis etc)
>
> We Muslim Jatts regard these "Islamic" tribes as foriegners and
> non-Punjabi garbage. We are the sons of Jaipal and the true sons of
> Punjab, while they are the sons of central asian and middle eastern
> perverts. The Muslim Jatt has been drugged senseless since the creation
> of Pakistan, but we will have our day, don't worry. Chaudhry Shujaat
> Hussain Gondal, the prince of Chaudhrys and the pride of the Jatt tribe,
> is leading a Jatt revival. Our enenmies had better watch out.
>
> Jamil
Waah ji!!! Waahh!! Isse Gall te Mirza Jutt da Kissa Suno!!
Chardhe Mirze Kahun nooN
Jutt Vanjhal denda Matt
Bhatth RannaN di dosti
te khuri jinnah di Mutt
Hass Hass LaundiyaN jehriyaN
te Ro ke devan Duss
Eih Qissa Peelu Shaher da
Unknown
My father's side is Awan and my mother's is Mir (Kashmiri).
You mentioned that Awans are true Punjabis...why is that ? My father said
that the story goes that our tribe is descended from Hazarat Ali (RA) and
one of his wives (not Bibi Fatima (RA)). Of course that is undoubtedly a
load of rubbish but I think most Awans, at least here in UK, believe it.
Are there any Hindu/Sikh Awans ? I also thought that Awans were a sub-caste
of the Malik tribe ? Is that true ? What are Maliks ? I know that Sikhs and
Hindu Punjabis are also Maliks.
Oh...I hope that makes you happy now, Mr Nijjar...now you know my zaat, what
do you think of me ? Am I an enemy or a friend ?
Jamil Raza
>
> In article <916278430.3783.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Arrey..I'm telling you guys...in Azad Kashmir...Mir Pur, Muzaffarabad and
> > all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
> >
> > In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
> > from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
> > regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the Pakistani
> > community here in UK. Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
>
> Why is this discussion continuing? We who are sikh juts know this much: when
> it came to constituency of the khalsa army, of the armed forces of sikh
> misls, of banda bahadurs brief struggle, and of recent indian wars, and of
> indian struggle of independence, there has been a preponderence of sikh
> involvement, and in that, a prominent jat involvement. Now obviously neither
> hindu nor muslims care about it, wish to acknowledge it, or are educated
> about it or part of the ethos or viewpoint of our background. The muslims
> still have a schizophrenic amnesia of sikh rule of punjab. For the above to
> have any reason to involve himself in this issue is interesting. I would
> merely say piss off, be glad we don't have the leadership, desire or post
> nuclear scenario to kick your pathetic bigoted asses again......
>
Don't take this idiots views as being representative of Muslim Punjabis.
The moron needs to visit Punjab to cure himself of the delusions induced
in him by Sheikh Iqbal through the agencey of his parents. Earlier he
wrote something about "ruling you for more than 500 years". This
statement in itself should give you an idea of the kind of low IQ
Potohari brain you're talking too. Just ignore him.
Jamil
Unknown
As for people looking down upon Potohari (or Putwaari as we call it)
speakers..I know all about that...as I am one myself. My father speaks
Putwaari as his first language (although he wouldn't dare speak it in front
of anyone other than fellow Putwaari speakers!).
Secondly...I am an Awan (from my father's side) but I do not hold racist
views about Kashmiris or for that matter any other people.
Lastly...Islam is what defines me..not the idol worshipping customs of my
forefathers. The companions of Muhhamad (SAW) abandoned the customs of their
forefathers when the Truth came to them...why can't we ?
Also...may I ask you...are you actually Muslim. You seem to have so much
venom against Islam and seem to be so brotherly with Sikhs and Hindus. Why
do you keep the name, Jamil ? Why not change it to Balwinder or something
"true Punjabi" ?
jamil...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<77qb4n$ia9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <916278430.3783.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Arrey..I'm telling you guys...in Azad Kashmir...Mir Pur, Muzaffarabad and
>> all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
>>
>> In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
>> from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
>> regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the
Pakistani
>> community here in UK. Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arrey..I'm telling you guys...in Azad Kashmir...Mir Pur, Muzaffarabad and
> all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
Listen, low IQ Potohari-brain, Jatts live on the plains, very few Jatts are to
be found in the hills, especially the high alpine-type hills of Muzzafrabad.
Even by the time you reach the low-lying hills of Rawalpindi and Mirpur the
percentage of Jatts in the population drops dramatically from say Gujarat,
Faislabad, Sialkot or Lahore - traditional Jatt areas.
> In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
> from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
> regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the Pakistani
> community here in UK.
Yes, this is correct. People from Mirpur and Rawalpindi are looked down upon
by plains Punjabis as primitive peasants and savages. But the reason for this
has nothing to do with them being Jatts. How can it, when most plains
Punjabis are Jatts and most Mirpuris and Pindi-waals are Rajputs? The main
reason for this condescending and racist attitude is the dialect spoken in
Rawalpindi and Mirpur, Potohari. On hearing this language being spoken most
Punjabis cannot but roll on the floor with laughter. This has given rise to
many jokes about people from Mirpur and Rawalpindi. All these jokes conclude
with a punch line in the Potohari-Mirpuri dialect. Hearing "Kuthay jalya eN,
papa?" or "MaRee ThaRee" "Micki Thicki" is more than the average Punjabi can
bear to hear without rolling on the floor in laughter. People from Rawalpindi
try to hide their origins by speaking the standard dialect of Punjabi, but
most of us can tell what they are from their thick, unusual-sounding accents.
They also try to pretend that they are different from Mirpuris, something the
rest of us go along with to their faces, but in private we don't distinguish
between Pindi-waals and Mirpuris. Why should we? We can't tell the bloody
difference between them. Please note that I utterly condemn the racism shown
to people from Rawalpindi and Mirpur. I am not condoning any of this. I am
simply commenting on the sad social situation in Pakistan as it is today.
> Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
> condoning that atittude...just pointing out that it exists.
>
> As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then I
> can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi).
As I already wrote, Rawalpindi isn't a Jatt area.
> Why is the Jatt caste so
> venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us, Jatt
> = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
> scale.
Very funny. All most all of the big landlords in Punjab are Jatts. Outside of
Potohar and Mirpur, Jatts are easily the premier tribe in Punjab in terms of
social and economic power and influence. For example, 80% of the MNA from
Punjab in Pakistan's national assembly are Jatt Chaudhrys. The legends, myths
and culture ofof the Punjab, eg Mirza Jatt and Heer Ranjha, are based on the
history of the Jatt tribe. On soc.culture.pakistan, Muhajirs regulairly taunt
Punjabis about them being the "Kammees" or serfs of Jatt Chaudhry feudals.
This in itself says alot about the power, status and influence of the Jatt
race. I've noticed alot of you low-caste Punjabis in the UK attempting to
rubbish Jatts. You need a visit to Punjab to cure you of the delusions
induced in you by your parents. You're in for a shock!
>Yet Sikhs seem to take such pride at being Jatt -all the bhangra
> songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
>
> All my Araian friends claim that they are descended from Muhammad Bin Qasim
> and his army. That is as likely as the story that my tribe ( for MR
> Nijjar...I'm NOT saying which one that is) are descended from Hazarat Ali
> (RA) and one of his wives.
>
> My mother's family are Mir which and are Kashmiri. Mir in Kashmiri means
> prince. The family moved down into Punjab from Sri Nagar at the end of the
> last century in order to escape from the vicious anti-muslim dogra rule.
> Anyone know anything about the Mir tribe ?
Yes, I can oblige you. The landowning clans of Punjab, ie. Jatts, Gujjars,
Rajputs and Awans, regard Kashmiris with extreme contempt and refer to them
as "Kammees". The word Kammee means "slave" or menial worker. Most Kashmiris
are landless and extremely poor, and employed as unskilled labour by the
landowning clans. Many Jatt Chaudhrys take Kashmiri women as concubines or
second wives. The parents of these women are more than happy to give their
daughters as second wives to Jatts to raise them out of a life of extreme
poverty. Although the sons born of Kashmiri women are not allowed to inherit
their father's lands. Once again, please note that I do not condone the
treatment given to Kashmiris or the racist attitude shown to them by Jatts. I
am simply revealing a fact about Punjabi society.
> And lastly, but not least...Sandeep...why aren't Sikhs pseudo-Jatts ? Sikhs
> have abandoned the idol worshipping of their Hindu forefathers so do the
> Hindu Jatts have every right to call Sikhs "sell-outs" as well ?
Almost all Jatts are either Muslim or Sikh, there are very few Hindu Jatts
these days. Though, Muslim and Sikh Jatts retain many of the cultural
traditions of their Hindu forefathers.
Jatt
ju...@hotmail.com
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
> ju...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <916356063.6019.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> > "Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Wow..what a rational argument...
> > >
> > > *************
> >
> >
>
> especially under a Burqah. But beleive me, the situation in Punjab
> itself is quite different. We Jatts refer to Kashmiris, Rajputs, Mughals
> and Arains as our Kammees. Kamee means menial worker. In the old Punjab
> most of the trade was in the hands of Khatri Hindus and Tarkhan Sikhs
> and most of the land was owned by Muslim Jatts (the Chaudhrys) these
> other tribes worked as labourers on our lands. They still do in 90% of
> Punjab. But the ones who have moved abroad hear all sorts of cock and
> bull stories from the parents who are under the influence of the Great
> Whore-murderer and delusional, Sheikh Iqbal. This idiot proudly claims
> half Kashmiri descent on soc.culture.punjab totally ignorant of the fact
> that Kashmiris are among the lowest status tribes in West Punjab.
I must apologize for one or two of my posts.
After reading several of yours, I must concede the immaturity of name calling
which is so easy to do with the idiot you describe above.
If more people thought like you, it is easy to see most juts think alike,
getting beyond the veil of religion......
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
I will guess that your real identity is Saqib Malik - am I right? Saqib used
to ask questions about Awans, Maliks, etc., but he never sounded so religious
as you do.
Jamil Raza
gan...@my-dejanews.com
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
> Punjabi society is tribalist and casteist to the core, which probably
The gangetic caste system was imported into northwest Sakasthana during
9-11th century Brahmanical expansion of Shankarcharya of Malabar. The
majority Saka population did not practise the gengetic caste system and had
their own social system, culture, Gandharan-Buddhist religion. Northwest was
independent and historically separate over 90% of its 4000 year known
history.
> explains why we've been colonial subjects of foriegners for so many
> centuries until the reign of Sher-e-Punjab Ranjeet Singh. Tribalism is a
> fact of life that we can't simply wish away. I don't think that things
> are as straight forward as Jatt vs Brahmin. In fact historically Jatts
Again oldest Brahmin temple/ruin in northwest are in Kashmir dating to 10th
century BC. Saka-Gandharan-Buddist temples, coins, inscriptions, atifacts
date from 400 BC- 900 AD! Gangetic Puranas from historically separate
Gangasthan "forbid Brahmins from Vahika-desa (northwest "foreign land").
The Saraswat division of so-called Brahmins are confined to northwest and
are former Saka priests/Buddists who took on gangu religion after fall of
Buddhism. Most Sakas adopted Shiva - an ancient Indus god - as their diety
because of his defiance, independence and ancient spirit.
In post-Buddhist Brahmin gangetic texts (oldest date to 11th century
AD), they attempted to "consfiscate" him also using monkey tales. Similarly,
Sakamini (THE BUDDHA) was made a fantasy avtar of Vishnu 1500 years after
his death in 9th century!
> were often allied with Brahmins against the rest of Punjabis. There are
> many historical anecdotes and tradtions in Punjab that lump Jatts and
> Brahmins together as the oppressors of the rest of the population.
But their is a Punjabi Jat saying
"jeh pehlan swareh sup dikheh yahn bahman, pehlan bahman nu maro"!
Sakas did not traditionally practise the gangetic chaturvarna caste
sytem and brahmins considered northwest Sakasthan (Indus-ganga country)
to be "foreign country" in their Puranas! They are of dravidian gangetic
origin!
Brahmins hate Sakas and jats in their holy books. Here are Jat and
Saka rulers since 500BC:
- Herodotus ("father of history") mentions that the Scythian tribes
controlled central asia down to the ganga river during the 5th century BC.
- The largest Saka imperial dynasties of Sakasthana include the Satraps (204
BC to 78 AD), Kushanas (50 AD - 380), Virkas (420 AD - 640) while others like
the Mauryas (324 - 232 BC) and Dharan-Guptas (320 AD - 515) expanded their
empires towards the east. A brief selected list of Saka rulers of Punjab and
the northwest spanning 16 centuries includes Porus (4th century BC), Mauryas
(3rd century BC), Rudradaman, Azes, Maues, Soter Megas (2nd century BC),
Azilises, Wima Kadphises (1st century AD), Kanishka I, Haviska (2nd
century),Vasudeva (3rd century), Vyaghra rata , Yasovardhana (4th century),
Naravardhana, Rajyavardhana (5th century), Harshavardhan (6th century),
AnangPala, JaiPala (11th century AD), PrithviRaj (12th century). The demise
of the Mogul-Rajput empire in the late 17th and early 18th centuries was due
largely to the Saka political revival in the west and northwest as expressed
by the rise of Maratha, Jat and Sikh power under the leadership of Shivaji,
Shambhaji, Shahu; Gokula, Churuman, Badan Singh, Jawahir Singh, Suraj Mal;
Banda Bahadur, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Ala Singh, Bhagel Singh, Ranjit Singh,
etc.
>
> In West Punjab society is split between those tribes who hold onto to
> their original Hindu-Buddhist identities ( the true Punjabis i.e.
Better to call it "Saka-Buddhist" identities with some foreign brahmanical
influence that arrived later (10th century AD) from 3000 miles away Malabar0.
The term "Hindu" (and "Hindusthan") itself is a term imposed on
Sakas (Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, etc) and other people on subcontinent
by the Afghan conqueror Mahmud Ghori of 12th century. No Brahmin/Buddist
texts ever refer to "Hindus" or "hindusthan"!
So Jats and other Sakas cant be Ghori's "Hindus" when they existed,
ruled and farmed the northwest way back from 500BC!
> Jatts, Gujjars and Awans) and those who are now claiming fake foriegn
> "Islamic" descents (Rajputs, Kashmiris, Arains) and who are allied with
> those of geniune foriegn descent (Mughals, Quereshis,Shirazis etc)
Again promoting a unified Saka Nation history/ideology - based on
verifible history from archeology, coins, inscriptions, texts -
would remove the need for "offended" groups bribing the maulvi/bahman
for higher status and fantasy pedigrees.
>
> We Muslim Jatts regard these "Islamic" tribes as foriegners and
> non-Punjabi garbage. We are the sons of Jaipal and the true sons of
> Punjab, while they are the sons of central asian and middle eastern
> perverts. The Muslim Jatt has been drugged senseless since the creation
> of Pakistan, but we will have our day, don't worry. Chaudhry Shujaat
> Hussain Gondal, the prince of Chaudhrys and the pride of the Jatt tribe,
> is leading a Jatt revival. Our enenmies had better watch out.
> Jamil
>
gan...@my-dejanews.com
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
> In West Punjab society is split between those tribes who hold onto to
> their original Hindu-Buddhist identities ( the true Punjabis i.e.
There were no "Hindus" or "Hindusthan" prior to 12th century - when
Mohammed Ghori the Afghan invented them as his subjects and colony!!!
Should be "Saka-Buddhist" identities. Why? See below.
> Jatts, Gujjars and Awans) and those who are now claiming fake foriegn
> "Islamic" descents (Rajputs, Kashmiris, Arains) and who are allied with
> those of geniune foriegn descent (Mughals, Quereshis,Shirazis etc)
>
Here is a quick overview of the history lesson on historically separate
northwest Sakasthana and Sakas (65% of Indus-Ganga population based on
thnological information in colonial censuses).
1) Southasia has historically been a
multi-national/cultural/ethnic/linguistic region, like Europe or the
middle-east. There has never been a ONE NATION or country in southasia. A
few short regional empires arose. As a historical/political entity, Winston
Churchill aptly states "India is merely a geographical expression. It is no
more a single country than the equator."
2) The fantasy of southasia as a "One Hindu Nation" under Brahmanist
rule never existed. For example, the oldest northwest region of southasia,
including Punjab, was politically unified to the rest of subcontinent less
than 10% of its known 3500 years history (that too under Buddhist and Muslim
regimes) prior to annexation by the British in 1847. The region was
independent from the rest of southasia over 90% of its verifiable history and
pursued its own unique and distinct ethnic, historical, political, religious,
linguistic, and cultural evolution.
3) Major periods of the historically separate northwest subcontinent:
a) Vedic Period of Saptha Sindhva (1500-500 BC)
b) Saka and Gandharan-Buddhist Period (500 BC-1200 AD): Gandhara constituted
the northwest and eastern Afghanistan. The region formed the hub of the silk
trade routes and was economically, religiously and culturally well connected
to central asia, China, the middle east and southasia. Scholars came from
all over the known world to study Gandharan Buddhism, philosophy, sciences,
and arts at international centers of learning and commerce situated at
Jalandhara, Moga, Taxila, Sialkot, Mathura, Kaithwar, Kabul and Balkh (in
northwest and Afghanhistan). From the start of its Vedic period (500BC) to
the Afghan conquest (1200 AD), the northwest had been politically separate
over 97% of its 2700 year history; the 3% or 92 years unity was under the
Mauryas - a Saka Buddhist dynasty.
c) Post Buddhist (post 900 AD): Influx of Gangetic/Malabari Brahmanism from
south (Shankarcharya of Malabar) and Islam from north. Local development of
Punjabi Sufism and Sikhism (12-17th century) which are threads of continuity
with the region's relatively egalitarian and humanistic Gandharan spiritual
and cultural traditions and heritage.
--------------------------------------------
Brahmanist Historical Fraud on Sakas: Erasing the History of the Northwest
"Sakasthana" (500BC - 1200 AD) and Buddhism
Bhiya Brahmanist historians and "history" has attempted to erase, marginalize
and distort the 1700 year history of Sakas, their country "Sakasthana" and
long sway of Buddhism (400BC-900AD). The Buddha who rejected Brahmanical
idols, shastras, claims of superiority and religion altogethor is portrayed
in later revisionist shastras as an "avtar of Vishnu" - 15 centuries after
his death! A similar cannibalism was performed on Rama who revolted against
Brahmanical hegemony and became the hero of the gangetic people oppressed by
the codes of the "Brahmin Law Giver" Manu Smriti (8-6th century BC).
Reality and Facts:
1) Political control over the northwest subcontinent
from 500 BC to 1200 AD was primarily in the hands of Sakas (Scythians) and
their descendants who mainly patronized Buddhism mixed with Saka sun-worship
prior to 9th century AD. The Sakas regained political power and independence
during 18-19th century before being absorbed by the British India empire.
Based on coins, inscriptions, archeology and early
Indian/Buddhist/Chinese/Greek/Persian manuscripts dating back to 500 BC,
historians and ethnographers since the 19th century (e.g. Cunningham, Tod,
Rapson, Ibbetson, Elliot, Ephilstone, Dahiya, Dhillon, Banerjea, Sharma,
Sinha, Puniya etc.) have shown that the traditional agrarian and artisan
communities of the entire northwest (e.g. Jats, Gujars, Tarkhans, Khatris,
Ghakkars, Rajputs, Awans, Khambos, Lohars, Yadavs, Ahirs, Meos, etc.
including various BC groups) are descended from Scythian (or Saka) tribes of
central Asia (an aggressive and expansionist old Iranian speaking culture)
who settled north-western southasia in successive waves between 5th century
B.C. and 1st century AD. The capital-lion Saka inscriptions at Peshawar and
Mathura state "Sarvasa Sakasthanasa puyae" (for the merit of the people of
Sakasthana).
2) Sir Cunningham (former Director General of Indian Archeological
survey) writes: "the different races of the Scythians which succesively
appeared as conquerors in the border provinces of Persian and India are the
following in the order of arrival: Sakas or Sacae (the Su or Sai of the
Chinese - B.C. ?), Kushans (the great Yue-Chi (Yuti) of the Chinese - B.C.
163), Kiddarite or later Kushans (the little Yue-chi of the Chinese - A.D.
450) and Epthalites or White Huns (the Yetha of the Chinese - 470 A.D.). . .
. the successive Scythian invasions of the Sakas, the Kushans, and the White
Huns, were followed by permanent settlements of large bodies of their
countrymen.".
3) Ethnological information collected in colonial censuses shows that
the majority (+65%) of the population of the northwest ("Sakasthan" including
Punjab, Rajasthan, Gujarat, northern Maharashtra and western UP) is of Saka
origin. Terms like "Sakasthana" and "Saka" appear on ancient Saka
inscriptions and coins found as far as Mathura, Ujjain and Vidharba in
western UP (former United Provinces), western MP (Malwa) and Maharashtra,
respectively. Other major Saka cities and centers include Sialkot, Jalandar,
Taxila, Moga, Ropar, Patiala, Batinda, Jodhpur, Peshawar, Kabul. Peshawar
and Mathura were the twin capital of the Kushana Sakas.
Herodotus ("father of history") mentions that the Scythian tribes
controlled central asia down to the ganga river during the 5th century BC.
The largest Saka imperial dynasties of Sakasthana include the Satraps (204 BC
to 78 AD), Kushanas (50 AD - 380), Virkas (420 AD - 640) while others like
the Mauryas (324 - 232 BC) and Dharan-Guptas (320 AD - 515) expanded their
empires towards the east. A brief selected list of Saka rulers of Punjab and
the northwest spanning 16 centuries includes Porus (4th century BC), Mauryas
(3rd century BC), Rudradaman, Azes, Maues, Soter Megas (2nd century BC),
Azilises, Wima Kadphises (1st century AD), Kanishka I, Haviska (2nd century),
Vasudeva (3rd century), Vyaghra rata , Yasovardhana (4th century),
Naravardhana, Rajyavardhana (5th century), Harshavardhan (6th century),
AnangPala, JaiPala (11th century AD), PrithviRaj (12th century). The demise
of the Mogul-Rajput empire in the late 17th and early 18th centuries was due
largely to the Saka political revival in the west and northwest as expressed
by the rise of Maratha, Jat and Sikh power under the leadership of Shivaji,
Shambhaji, Shahu; Gokula, Churuman, Badan Singh, Jawahir Singh, Suraj Mal;
Banda Bahadur, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Ala Singh, Bhagel Singh, Ranjit Singh,
etc.
5) The early Sakas or Scythians are remembered by Greek (e.g. Herodotus,
Megatheses, Pliny, Ptolemy) and Persian historians of antiquity as tall,
large framed and fierce warriors who were unrivaled on the horse. Herodotus
from the 5th century BC writes in an eye-witness account of the Scythians:
"they were the most manly and law-abiding of the Thracian tribes. If they
could combine under one ruler, they would be the most powerful nation on
earth." According to their origin myth recorded by Herodotus, the Sakas
arose when three things fell from the sky: the i) plough, ii) sword and iii)
cup. The progenitor of the Sakas, picked them up and hence the Saka race
began its long history of conquering lands, releasing its bounties and
enjoying the fruits of their labor (the cup has a
ceremonial-spiritual-festive symbolism). The relevance of these symbols and
codes of life and culture to the traditional Punjabi and northwest society
are tantalizingly obvious. A branch of the Sakas kown as the Alani reached
regions of Europe, Asia minor and the middle east and have been connected to
the Goths of France/Spain, Saxons and the Juts of Denmark.
6) The conquering Saka waves subsequently absorbed their Vedic
forerunners in the Saptha Sindhva country and the resulting Saka-Vedic
confluence forms the core ethnicity and nationality of the northwest trans
Indus-Ganga country (Sakasthana). The Sakas have left their deep imprint on
the ethnic composition, ethos, cultural heritage, political institutions,
social customs, dress, kinship patterns, folk dances and cuisine of the
Punjab and other provinces of Sakasthan. These include:
democratic-republican political systems and institutions, elected panchayat,
sarpanch, thok, khaap, sarva khaap; kurta-pajama, uchkin, turban,
salwar-kameez, ghagra; bhangra, giddha, dhol, tumbi, thadi-jathas; diet
based on wheat, meat, onions, sour-milk (lassi), liqor; an ethos and
tradition showing a high affinity for self-sacrifice and heroism, a strong
sense of self-honor (ankh) and independence, strong work-ethic; a secular,
unorthodox, mystical and humanistic outlook towards religion and
spirituality, etc.
Interestingly, in the orthodox Brahmanical culture of the eastern
subcontinent, the use of onions, meat and liqor was taboo and the diet based
on rice. Moreover, traditional Brahmanical dress consisting of the sari and
dhoti are visibly different in appearance and style from the traditional
uchkin, turban, kurta pajamas, jodhpurs, salwar kammeez and ghagra worn by
the Vedic-Saka populations in the northwest.
7) The Sakas of the northwest did not accept the supremacy of the
Brahmins, did not practise the chaturvarna caste system advocated by their
"law givers" like Manu, had their own Saka priests (Magas), and mainly
patronized Buddhism mixed with their own religion (sun-worship) prior to 9th
century AD. Their ill-disposition to Brahmanism earned them an unending
hostility of the frustrated gangetic priesthood. The post-Buddhist
transmission of Brahmanism into Sakasthan required adaption to fit it into
the Saka social and political order prevailing in the northwest where Sakas
continued to wield political power, run their villages and own the land. The
Brahmin livelihood depended on the goodwill and generosity of their Saka
employers and patrons.
In the Saka social order, zamindari, cultivation, artisanship and soldiering
were considered the "noblest" and "highest" professions and way of life.
These social ideals and cultural heritage are diametric opposites of eastern
Brahmanical social dogma in which those who worked the land and worked for
their living were designated "polluted" and "sudras" while those following
non-Brahmanical religions were "mlechas" (barbarians). In return, the Sakas
considered the gangetic priests to be little more than soothsayers and
palm-readers who begged for their food. With the rise of Sufism by the 11th
century, the bulk of the population in Punjab had formally moved away from
Brahmanism and the remaining employed Brahmins for ritual and ceremonial
purposes while also patronizing Sufis, Fakirs, Yogis and Naths who followed
the local secular and unorthodox spiritual traditions.
8) These two different social, cultural and religious systems and orders
represent nothing less than a "Clash of Civilizations": to the southeast of
the western ganga river lay the dravidic "Brahmanical culture" while to the
west of this frontier lay the "Saka-Vedic civilization". Moreover, since the
advent of the Vedic period in the northwest (1500 - 500 BC) and during its
succeeding Saka period (500 BC - 1200 AD), the Sakasthan country was
politically separate from the subcontinent over 97% of its 2500 years known
history - even this "3% togethorness" of 92 years occurred under the eastward
expanding Saka empire of the Mauryas. To the Poorbia Brahmins, the northwest
Saka-Vedic country has always been historically a "foreign land of
Barbarians" ("Vahika-desa" populated by "vahikas", "vratyas", "mlechas" and
"sudras") as written in their own holy shastras. The Mahabharta, Puranas and
Brahmin Law Givers repeatedly "forbid Brahmins" from traveling to these
foreign lands where, in turn, their alien religion, priesthood, gods and
caste creed was spurned and rejected by the Vedic-Saka people population.
For example, the Mahabharta, verses 2063-2068, Karna Parva, states "one
should not go to Vahika-desa in which the five rivers and the Indus . . .
where the mlechas live . . ".
9) As discussed above, the northwest country ("Saptha-Sindhva" in Rig
Veda, "Sakasthana" on Saka inscriptions/coins) was politically independent
from rest of southasia over 97% of its history from the start of its Vedic
period to the Afghan conquest (500 BC - 1200 AD). Between 500 BC-1200 AD, it
was under the political rule of Saka tribes and dynasties who form 65% of the
present northwest population based on ethnological information collected in
colonial censuses. Saka priests were known as "Magas" (Sun priests who
prayed to the sun for bountiful harvests) who, along with Buddhist masters of
Sakasthan, found themselves out of work when Buddhism and its institutions
declined during 8-10th century. Many of them eventually became recruited
into the "Brahmin" fold (e.g. Saraswat, Dakaut divisions) while gangetic
emigrants form the "Gaur" division of Brahmins. These Saka converts to
Brahmanism did not intermarry Brahmins from other regions and divisions, ate
meat and were occupationally lax. Although they were indoctrinated into the
gangetic caste ideology, they have always been regarded as a "lower grade" by
the easterly orthodox Brahmins. Brahmins as a whole in southasia are
ethnically, culturally and racially a diverse heterogenous group
geographically distributed up to Indonesia, Burma and Thailand, while the
Saka-Vedic population is predominantly confined to the northwest country
where they form the majority.
10) Brahmins collectively are not of one racial or ethnic origin as
fantasized under 19th century Poorbia Brahmanist racial dogma ("Vedic
Aryan"). In the south, they take on the physical traits of south Indians, in
Nepal they look Nepali, in Burma and Thailand they are mongoloid, in
Gangasthan they look Bhiya, and in the Punjab many share a Punjabi ethnicity
derived from their Maga and Buddhist predecessors while others are
undoubtedly post 9th century AD migrants from Malabar (Shankarcharya's
revivalist horde) and the gangetic region.
Unknown
clear...
I have no idea why you and jut8 became so hostile to me. I did not insult
Jatts nor belittle them. I was ASKING some questions. I honestly thought
that Mir Puris were Jatts but thanks for clarifying that for me. As for the
comment about 500 years of rule...I was just replying to jut8 saying that we
Muslim Punjabis are hung up because Sikhs ruled us. If you check the thread
carefully I think you'll find he made the first comment...I just responded.
As a Muslim I do not believe in caste anyway. The sooner Muslim Punjabis
loose this remnant of Hinduism the better.
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk wrote in message <77qkf8$ppn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
sandeep
Unknown wrote:
> 3 points...
>
> As for people looking down upon Potohari (or Putwaari as we call it)
> speakers..I know all about that...as I am one myself. My father speaks
> Putwaari as his first language (although he wouldn't dare speak it in front
> of anyone other than fellow Putwaari speakers!).
Pothohari and Pahari are a dialect of Punjabi!! both are very similar to each
otherand both are spoken at hilly or semi-hilly areas of Punjab!!!!
Seraikey is spoken in South Punjab where there is influence of Sindhi, areas of
Jhang Multan, Bahawalpur!! ! but it is a dialect of Punjabi!!
> Secondly...I am an Awan (from my father's side) but I do not hold racist
> views about Kashmiris or for that matter any other people.
Jutts are not racist!!! they are just extremely proud of their heritage!!!!
Jutts are probablyunderstanding now that people like Iqbal, Kapoors, Khannas,
Deol's, Sahir, etc are/were pseudo
Punjabis and are only serving either Hindi or Urdu!! so indeed it is time for
people to understand
what is their own what is not!!!! Jutts are very outspoken and everytime a
Jutt opens up his mouth
people make stereotypes like "Ganwaar, Dehati, Jaanwar, Racist, etc, etc" !!
While in reality Jutt is
simply telling it all!!
> Lastly...Islam is what defines me..not the idol worshipping customs of my
> forefathers. The companions of Muhhamad (SAW) abandoned the customs of their
> forefathers when the Truth came to them...why can't we ?
Islam means "Submission" To whom do you submiss yourself???? ARabian culture
or God!!
There is one God and there is no doubt that!! Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Ahmadiyas,
Christians, Budhists,
Sikhs all believe that!! The difference is just these rites and rituals!!
Unless you open up your mind that
you indeed are practicing an Arabian Culture and not islam you will not
understand!!
>
>
> Also...may I ask you...are you actually Muslim. You seem to have so much
> venom against Islam and seem to be so brotherly with Sikhs and Hindus. Why
> do you keep the name, Jamil ? Why not change it to Balwinder or something
> "true Punjabi" ?
That is immaterial!!! A punjabi can have any name after he/she recognizes
his/her culture,
identity and nation!!
Sikh, Hindu, Islam is not a Nation!!
Punjab is a nation!!! Punjabis are Nation!!! We jutts believe that and if you
don't believe that is your problem!
Sandeep Singh Bajwa
--
S Singh Sandhu
Are u describing pathans??
rafiqs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> There is a world of a difference between Muslim Panjabis and those stink
>bomb (self proclaimed)Panjabis and muslim wanna bes who live on the other
>side of the border....all they are is unhygenic, unshaved and not to mention
>*very* *very* ugly dravidians...I mean both the hindu hindus and sikh hindus.
>Rafiq Shabaaz "zindabad Pakistan"
>
>
> gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> In article <369EB0C3...@home.com>,
>> sba...@home.com wrote:
>> >
>> >
>I
>> > > can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
>> > > venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us,
>Jatt
>> > > = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
>>
>>
>> You are sometimes such an ignoramus that I wonnder if your
>> ever read the tons of information I provide on Sakas - Jats, Gujars,
>> etc. - ruling the northwest Sakasthana from almost 500BC-11,12th
>> century AD. And then restablishing control in the 18-19th century
>> until Brits gobbled the region up.
>>
>> Even the personal historian (Feristha) of Mahmud Ghaznavi in the 11th century
>> writes in the Tarike-e-Feristha that the Afghan war was "agianst the
>> Jats" in which the Jat forces under Raja Jaipala were defeated near
>> Attock and there were naval engagements in the Punjabi rivers - all
>> described by the eyewitness account of Mahmud's historian.
>>
>> If you keep your stupidity up, I am going to come down HARD on you.
>>
>> Take this as a guarantee, Sandeep virah!
>>
>> > > songs glorify the Jatt caste. Why ?
>> >
>society!!
>> >
>> > Jutts are not the owner of lands in Pakistani punjabi but Khatri Zamindars
>and
>> > Chaudhary's who
>>
>>
>to
>> > Jutts who are natives and thus are
>> > looked down upon!!!
>>
>> traders - not LANDOWNERS! Check the British land revenue taxation
>> records of 19th century - most of the land in Punjab was held by Saka
>> tribes like Jats, Gujars, Rajputs, Arrai, Awan, Ghakkars, etc!
>> Chaudhary is a Saka title; other Jat-Saka institutions include
>> Punchayat, Sarpanch, Thok, Sarva Khaap.
>>
>> Even the land that the Sodhi Khatris was given to them
>> by a clan of Bhullar Jats who had high respect for Guru Nanak!
>> Due to such gifts, some Khatris - especially Mahants - acquired
>> land. But the British records from 19th century AND COMMON KNOWLEDGE
>> (in Punjab has) clearly show that Jats owned the major chunk of the
>> land in Punjab - west and east - followed by other groups.
>>
>> Most of the traditional folklore of Punjab views the Jat as a hero
>> (surma) and he is mentioned so frequently for his courage and daring
>> - although sometimes also for his foolishness. Like you are
>> now (assuming you are a Jat).
>>
>> Post 1925 RSS Kirar-Bhiya driven propaganda is another matter though!
>>
>> >
>>
>> the Chatur-varna-caste system from Gangaland. They were Buddhists
>> and had their own religious traditions (Sun Worship), social system
>> and order, etc. prior to Brahmanical expansion of Shankarcharya (9-11th
>> century). They condidered farming and soldiering to be the "noble
>> professions". Major Jat and other Saka dynasties from 300 BC onward
>> to 11th century include the Mauryas, Chastanas, Kushanas, Jauvalas, Jartas
>> (misnamed "Guptas"), Virkas (last Raja HarshaVardhana), AnangPala,
>> JaiPala etc.
>>
>> Gandasa
>>
>> PS. Please read the posts on Saka and Jat history. Your continued
>> ignorance (or mischief) is becoming increasingly embarassing
>> for both Sikhs and Jats!
>>
ek_pak...@my-dejanews.com
ju...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <77q27v$bi5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> rafiqs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > There is a world of a difference between Muslim Panjabis and those stink
> > bomb (self proclaimed)Panjabis and muslim wanna bes who live on the other
> > side of the border....all they are is unhygenic, unshaved and not to mention
> > *very* *very* ugly dravidians...I mean both the hindu hindus and sikh
hindus.
> > Rafiq Shabaaz "zindabad Pakistan"
> >
>
> Yeah right......this coming from a kabba worshipping, maulvi ass licking,
hahahaha!! This from a cow worshipping hindu. LOL
converted (by the way asshole, who do you think had more balls and guts: your
Guts? hahaha you faggot towel head sikh hindus are the fucking converts...you
were all doing Ram Ram till the past century...then the muslims fucked you and
you converted and incorporated islam into your religion and created this new
sikh(sick!) religion but you bastards are still hindus...got it?
lilly ancestors who converted or ours who said, we die before converting to
> your narrow minded backward ways?)sob: sorry to say, you are just as ugly,
> more unhygenic likely, and sadly enough, probably have just the same
> bastardized genes. May be your name should read...Rafiq shithead "zindabad
> choothisthan".
Indians are ugly, Pakistanis are all that..and some! :) Zindabad
pakistan...marg bar indostan! Haaa!!
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
jamil...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Yes, it is true that Punjabis hold a very low opinion of people from Mirpur
> and Rawalpindi. Yet another sad example of Pakistani society disintegrating
> into hundreds of sects, clans etc that hate and despise each other. But the
> reason for this low opnion for Mirpuris and Pindi-waals has nothing to do
> with them being Jatts, like I said Mirpur and Rawalpindi are famous Rajput
> areas, though obviosly there are Jatts in these areas too. The main reason
> for Punjabi low opinion of these people is their language. The Punjabi
> dialect of Rawalpindi and Mirpur is known as Pothohari.( Mirpuris and
> Pindi-waals are the same as far as most of us other Punjabis are concerned,
> despite Pothori attempts to pretend otherwise) Most Punjabis can't hear a
> line of Potohari-Mirpuri without breaking out into laughter. Things like
> "Kuthay julyaN, papa?" and "MaRee ThaRee", "Micki Thicki" leave the rest of
> us in stitches. Its all very disgusting and I totally condem my own people
> for the way they make fun of people from Mirpur and Rawalpindi. I apologize
> to you for their behaviour.
>
Potohari must be better than Urdu, right? It's a genuine, indigenous,
Pakistani language. You Punjabis laught at them just like Urdu speakers
laugh at you! To an Urdu speaker (who has convinced almost all Pakistanis of
the superiority of his language) do you think it makes any difference if it's
Lahore Punjabi (Majhi) vs. Potohari?
I write this as a lover of the Punjabi language and despiser of Urdu, I have
no political or other agenda in my comments.
gan...@my-dejanews.com
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
> Unknown wrote:
> >
> > Oh yeah...why should we be hung up over 50 years of Sikh rule when we ruled
1740s-1847 = 50 years?
Although Banda Bahadur, his Sikhs and Punjabi Muslim supporters
(rf. contemporary Mogul historian Nur Mohhammed) held Punjab from 1708-1715.
Mogul rule was < 200 years.
Afghans were DEFEATED by the Mogul Babar - I doubt they have a reason to
celebrate. Babar's forefathers (Chengiz Khan and sons) destroyed the
Islamic kingdoms in central asia, Iran, Iraq, burnt or turned into stables all
the mosques they came across, and destroyed, raped and looted the jewel of
Islamic civilization - Baghdad.
One of the Moguls ravaged Afghanistan in 12th century - killing over
1 million Afghans according to accounts of Muslim historians.
So who are "we"?
> > for over 500 years ?
Sakas (Jats, Gujars, Awans, etc) had 1700 years in Indus-Ganga country
(Sakasthana): 500BC-1100 AD, 18-19th century
> >
>
> Punjabis brothers, please take in easy on our friend, Unknown. He is
> another victim of a Kashmiri kamee toilet-cleaner called Sheikh Muhammad
> Iqbal who taught Muslim Punjabis to worship and idolize the torturers
> and humiliaters of our forefathers.
That should be apparent to any Punjabi - especially Sakas like Jats,
Gujars, Awans, etc. who were ruling the northwest Sakasthana (Indus-Ganga
country) from 500BC to 11th century AD when the "muslims" came!!!
Arab armies in Sindh during 8-9th century AD refer to the Jats as
the "warriors of Buddha".
The personal historian Feristha of the Afghan King Mahmud Ghaznavi,
who defeated the Punjabi army under Jat Raja Jaipala at Attock in
1027, writes in the "Tarik-e-Feristha" that the Afghan war was
"against the Jats". Jats and other Punjabis lost their rule, country,
soverignty and STATUS to a foreign regime until the achievement of
Punjabi rule in 18-19th century from the Moguls.
Over 30% of Ranjit Singh's army, court and administration had Punjabi
"Muslim" (30%) soldiers, officers, generals and ministers (including Foreign
Minister, Chief-of-Police, Personal Physician) while Punjabis
under Afghan/Mogul "muslim" dynasties were treated as conquered
subject! The same Saka tribes/clans names found among Sikhs (65% Jat)
exist among Punjabi Muslims. The bani/hyms of 36 Sufi saints (under whose
influence Punjabis acquired their Islamic heritage) and mystical bhagats,
including Baba Farid and Kabir, is found in the 1400 pages of the
granth.
At the same time, the Mogul/Afghan rulers that Punjabi Muslims are supposed
to "admire" had +50% of their officers and army made up of dessert Hindu
Rajputs from Ragesthan! Even Aurengzeb - the Mohajir ideal - had an over
50% Hindu army! He had 2 Sikh gurus and most of the head MUSLIM Pirs of Sufi
centers in Punjab killed!
How can a self-respecting Jat, Gujar, Awan or any Punjabi for that
matter - regardless of their current religious affiliation -
celebrate and feel proud of their OWN defeat, kayamet and oppression!!!
Especially by those who usurped their own rule and country!
This is EXACTLY what they are taught to do under 20th century
Mongolian-Bhiya-Mohajir fraud history and fantasies of empire outside of
Bhiyasthan!
What utter fraud of 7% "one nation" Bhiya-kirars and 3% "two nation"
Bhiya-Mohajirs - both blood brothers by the way!
Defines all commonsense and self-respect - but that it the wonder of Mohajir
Bhiya "2 nation fraud", propaganda, spin and brainwashing - all aimed
at establishing their Bhiya Mohajir Sultanate on a big slice of Saka
territory!!!
Gandasa
gan...@my-dejanews.com
In large part, both Punjabi Sufism and Sikhism represent a
renaissance/revival of the region's ancient Saka-Buddhist-Gandharan
(400BC-900AD) humanistic and egalitarian spiritual traditions. Most letters
found in the gurmuki script are derived from Gandharan scripts of Sakasthana.
Even the names of many Sufi/Sikh saints BETRAY ancient Buddhist-Gandharan
heritage and traditions: e.g. Buddha Shah, Bulle Shah, Buddha Singh, Gandha
Singh, Baba Buddha, etc.
Sufis rejected orthodoxy - both Brahmanical and Islamic - and also taught
ancient Gandharan Saka-Buddhist philosophies along with egalitarian aspects of
Islam and wrote/composed in the local Saka languages (e.g. Saraiki Punjabi and
Brij). Most Sufi and Sikh shrines/gurdwaras are on locations consider sacred
during the region's Gandharan civilization (e.g. Punja sahib, Nankana, etc.).
Gandharan-Saka incriptions, coins, cities, and artifacts litter the northwest
Indus-Ganga country (Peshawar, Jalandar, Taxila, Sialkot, Moga, Multan,
Ropar, Patiala, Mathura, Kaithawar, etc.). The region was a center of trade
and learning with universities of sciences, arts, Buddhism attracting
scholars from all over the known world (e.g Greeks, Romans, Chinese,
Buddhists). It was the hub of the asian trade routes connecting China,
central asia, middle-east and southasia.
The Buddhist Satrap Sakas from 200BC-100AD had the longest dynasty (290
years) of southasia in Sakasthan with 36 MahaSatraps. Punjabi Sakas in
northern Sakasthan controlled western Tibet and ruled tracts in central asia
during 2-3rd century. Raja Kanishka died fighting in central asia trying to
expand his Buddhist empire. The survived 8th century Buddhist work
AryaManjusuraKalpana from Tibet describes Harshavardhana's father (of VIRKA
or VIRK Jat clan) in the 6th century AD worshipping the Saka Sun God and
bringing special Magas priests from central asia upon the birth of his son.
Is any of this in Mohajir Bhiya history book taught in their 50 year
harami Sultanate on Saka territory???
Unknown
ek_pak...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<77r9a7$asj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com
"Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 3 points...
>
> As for people looking down upon Potohari (or Putwaari as we call it)
> speakers..I know all about that...as I am one myself. My father speaks
> Putwaari as his first language (although he wouldn't dare speak it in front
> of anyone other than fellow Putwaari speakers!).
Come on, have pride in your language! How bad could it be? It's definitely
better than Urdu. Even if you don't agree with that, at least it is your very
own language, and once it is lost, it will never come back. Speak it in front
of anyone!
I don't understand why Muslims throughout the sub-continent are so enamored
of Urdu that they happily denigrate their own tongues just to adopt the
so-called superior "zaban-e-urdu". What crap! Kashmiri, Punjabi, Punjabi
dialects like Potohari, and a host of other languages and dialects are all on
their death-bed in Pakistan, thanks to Urdu.
And for Pakistani Punjabis from the plains (whose own language is also in
dire trouble)to belittle Potohari Punjabi from the hills, is assinine, and
suicidal, culturally speaking.
S Singh Sandhu
>> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>>
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Aryans vs Dravidians. You midgets can't even fight properly for crying out loud.. look at whatthe afghans say abt the sikhs, they were scared stiff at their mention.
S Singh Sandhu
Btw do you any info on gujjars, i'm interested because i remember this nassal index chart which put jats as 68 and gujjars as 66 while an average european is 69. The little i know
is the gujjars came down with the white huns??
ju...@hotmail.com
ek_pak...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <77q55a$doh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ju...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > In article <77q27v$bi5$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > rafiqs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > > There is a world of a difference between Muslim Panjabis and those stink
> > > bomb (self proclaimed)Panjabis and muslim wanna bes who live on the other
> > > side of the border....all they are is unhygenic, unshaved and not to
mention
> > > *very* *very* ugly dravidians...I mean both the hindu hindus and sikh
> hindus.
> > > Rafiq Shabaaz "zindabad Pakistan"
> > >
> > > *******
> >
> > Yeah right......this coming from a kabba worshipping, maulvi ass licking,
>
> hahahaha!! This from a cow worshipping hindu. LOL
>
and viral ridden molested quasi religious asshole than worship a cow. Somehow
I think the idol worshipping kafirs got you one this one. Different folks,
different strokes...
Jamil Raza
>
> 3 points...
>
> As for people looking down upon Potohari (or Putwaari as we call it)
> speakers..I know all about that...as I am one myself. My father speaks
> Putwaari as his first language (although he wouldn't dare speak it in front
> of anyone other than fellow Putwaari speakers!).
You can blame the imposition of Urdu and the culture of the Muslims of
UP-Hindustan by the Pakistan state for this sad state of affairs. Sheikh
Muhammed Iqbal and his followers taught us Punjabis to hate and despise
ourselves.
> Secondly...I am an Awan (from my father's side) but I do not hold racist
> views about Kashmiris or for that matter any other people.
>
> Lastly...Islam is what defines me..not the idol worshipping customs of my
> forefathers. The companions of Muhhamad (SAW) abandoned the customs of their
> forefathers when the Truth came to them...why can't we ?
Because there is much, much more to life than religion. The great sufi
poets of Punjab and Sindh saw this truth many centuries ago. They saw
the tragedy of wasting this brief and unpredictable time we have in the
universe performing meaningless rituals or stewing in hatred against
people of other faiths. But the Pakistan state has cut us off from them
and their wisdom and we are now regressing into a dark age of religious
(and ethnic) intolerance.
> Also...may I ask you...are you actually Muslim. You seem to have so much
> venom against Islam and seem to be so brotherly with Sikhs and Hindus.
Have I said anything against Islam, or any other religion? Though, I
certainly believe that all religions have a very nasty side to them, and
I detest the priestly caste of Islam and Hinduism. I do, however, have a
problem with the way Orthodox Islam is being used in Pakistan to rob
Punjabis and Sindhis of their languages, cultures and identities.
> Why
> do you keep the name, Jamil ? Why not change it to Balwinder or something
> "true Punjabi" ?
Names are irrelevent. I have my language, culture and identity, and
these are the most important
things.
Jamil
Jamil Raza
>
> In article <77qb4n$ia9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> jamil...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes, it is true that Punjabis hold a very low opinion of people from Mirpur
> > and Rawalpindi. Yet another sad example of Pakistani society disintegrating
> > into hundreds of sects, clans etc that hate and despise each other. But the
> > reason for this low opnion for Mirpuris and Pindi-waals has nothing to do
> > with them being Jatts, like I said Mirpur and Rawalpindi are famous Rajput
> > areas, though obviosly there are Jatts in these areas too. The main reason
> > for Punjabi low opinion of these people is their language. The Punjabi
> > dialect of Rawalpindi and Mirpur is known as Pothohari.( Mirpuris and
> > Pindi-waals are the same as far as most of us other Punjabis are concerned,
> > despite Pothori attempts to pretend otherwise) Most Punjabis can't hear a
> > line of Potohari-Mirpuri without breaking out into laughter. Things like
> > "Kuthay julyaN, papa?" and "MaRee ThaRee", "Micki Thicki" leave the rest of
> > us in stitches. Its all very disgusting and I totally condem my own people
> > for the way they make fun of people from Mirpur and Rawalpindi. I apologize
> > to you for their behaviour.
> >
>
> Potohari must be better than Urdu, right? It's a genuine, indigenous,
> Pakistani language.
Potohari is a mountain-hill dialect of Punjabi, and Pothoharis are 100%
Punjabi. No Potohari
calls himself anything other than Punjabi, despite what the
Muhajir-controlled media in
Pakistan would have you believe.
> You Punjabis laught at them just like Urdu speakers
> laugh at you!
Urdu-speakers have managed to convince Punjabis that Urdu is the
language of the Muslim rulers of South Asia and that Punjabi and Sindhi
are "Hindu" languages. This is a transparantly feeble argument and I'm
not going to bother taking it apart. You know enough about South Asian
culture and history to see through it. But the followers of Iqbal
control the whole apparatus of state and media in Pakistan, and with
this much propaganda power you can convince the common man in Punjab of
anything, given enough time.
> To an Urdu speaker (who has convinced almost all Pakistanis of
> the superiority of his language) do you think it makes any difference if it's
> Lahore Punjabi (Majhi) vs. Potohari?
Not all Pakistanis. Sindhis, Baluchis and Pakthuns still retain their
sanity.
> I write this as a lover of the Punjabi language and despiser of Urdu, I have
> no political or other agenda in my comments.
Your comments are much appreciated.
Jamil
Jamil Raza
>
> Fine. I agree with everything you have said. Let me just make something
> clear...
>
> I have no idea why you and jut8 became so hostile to me. I did not insult
> Jatts nor belittle them. I was ASKING some questions. I honestly thought
> that Mir Puris were Jatts but thanks for clarifying that for me.
A lot of them are no doubt, but Potohar (and Mirpur is linguistically,
culturally and geographically a part of Potohar) is a Rajput area. The
heartland of the Jatt tribe is the region of plains around Lahore i.e.
Sialkot, Kasur, Gujranwala, Gujarat, Faisalabad, Jhang Sial etc. Btw, no
offence, but have you actually ever been to Pakistan?
> As for the
> comment about 500 years of rule...I was just replying to jut8 saying that we
> Muslim Punjabis are hung up because Sikhs ruled us. If you check the thread
> carefully I think you'll find he made the first comment...I just responded.
Yes, and how stupidly you responded. How on earth can we Punjabi Muslims
take pride in centuries of Turko-Persian rule when we were regarded as
slaves by the Turkish milliatry elite? We were just as much their
colonial subjects as the Hindus or Sikhs.
Jamil
rafiqs...@my-dejanews.com
...especially the way your mom does it.:)
Rafiq Shabaaz
Nobody
amitabh...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<77r9eq$atb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>laugh at you! To an Urdu speaker (who has convinced almost all Pakistanis
of
>the superiority of his language) do you think it makes any difference if
it's
>Lahore Punjabi (Majhi) vs. Potohari?
>
have
>no political or other agenda in my comments.
>
Vijay S. Bajwa
my brother Sandeep misses it by a bargepole sometimes (and I've
met few people who have his breadth of knowledge on things
Punjabi). The essense of Jatthood is that religion is secondary.
We ARE an extremely tribal society. There is an anecdote that
my grandfather used to tell of Aurangzeb offering to pay a large
sum of money to a Chaudhry to get him to converge some jatt
villages to Islam. The Chaudhry grumbled:
"Ji, thuade bbuzurg ne taaN aedhey naaLon zaada paise
dittey si"
Mostly Jatts don't care about religion, but let someone
try to throw his weight around (eg. Indira Gandhi). Pher saadi
poonsch nuN agg lagdi ae. That's why Hanuman was probably a
Jatt. WohTi kisse hor di, chukk ke koi hor lae giya, saale
ne poonsch nuN apni nooN agg la lei.
As to this "Marhi Thari" brand of Punjabi boli, we find it in
abundance in areas around Chandigarh. We roll on the floor
with laughter at such instances as: (anyone want to take a stab
at the meanings?)
1. Oh Guru, utha gode gode kuRi paRae
2. Oh, ohi! Jihde patt bhiDaN!!!
This is an obscure one. The subject is referring to a very
skinny dude, sarcastically referring to him as one whose
thigs get in each other's way (patt bhiDde ohde)
--
Vijay S. Bajwa
Jamil Raza wrote:
>
> Unknown wrote:
> >
> > 3 points...
> >
> > As for people looking down upon Potohari (or Putwaari as we call it)
> > speakers..I know all about that...as I am one myself. My father speaks
> > Putwaari as his first language (although he wouldn't dare speak it in front
> > of anyone other than fellow Putwaari speakers!).
>
> You can blame the imposition of Urdu and the culture of the Muslims of
> UP-Hindustan by the Pakistan state for this sad state of affairs. Sheikh
> Muhammed Iqbal and his followers taught us Punjabis to hate and despise
> ourselves.
>
>
> > Secondly...I am an Awan (from my father's side) but I do not hold racist
> > views about Kashmiris or for that matter any other people.
> >
> > Lastly...Islam is what defines me..not the idol worshipping customs of my
> > forefathers. The companions of Muhhamad (SAW) abandoned the customs of their
> > forefathers when the Truth came to them...why can't we ?
>
> Because there is much, much more to life than religion. The great sufi
> poets of Punjab and Sindh saw this truth many centuries ago. They saw
> the tragedy of wasting this brief and unpredictable time we have in the
> universe performing meaningless rituals or stewing in hatred against
> people of other faiths. But the Pakistan state has cut us off from them
> and their wisdom and we are now regressing into a dark age of religious
> (and ethnic) intolerance.
>
> > Also...may I ask you...are you actually Muslim. You seem to have so much
> > venom against Islam and seem to be so brotherly with Sikhs and Hindus.
>
> Have I said anything against Islam, or any other religion? Though, I
> certainly believe that all religions have a very nasty side to them, and
> I detest the priestly caste of Islam and Hinduism. I do, however, have a
> problem with the way Orthodox Islam is being used in Pakistan to rob
> Punjabis and Sindhis of their languages, cultures and identities.
>
> > Why
> > do you keep the name, Jamil ? Why not change it to Balwinder or something
> > "true Punjabi" ?
>
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
: In article <369EB0C3...@home.com>,
: sba...@home.com wrote:
: > > As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then I
: > > can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi). Why is the Jatt caste so
: > > venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us, Jatt
: > > = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal
: Is there a word for "peasant" in Punjabi?
: You are sometimes such an ignoramus that I wonnder if your
: ever read the tons of information I provide on Sakas - Jats, Gujars,
Well after reading the tons of info you posted, Sandeep became Agyani
Sandeep Singh Bjawa! ;-)
sikh...@hotmail.com
Tribalism is a reality and too deep rooted to wish away.
India will most likely disintegrate under its own weight
( no outsiders required ) the way things are going
and polls show indians themselves believe that
this is what is in store for them in future.
Same may happen with pakistan. How jatts, weakened
by brahmin conspiracies , are able to assert themselves after
such an disintegration in the subcontinent, and reclaim their
lost glory would be interesting phenonmenon to see unfolding
by itself. Also non jatt sikhs are a part of our heritage,and are welded
inseperably into jatt history and must be closely integrated in
the dynamics of any such event.
SIKHAMBO
JATOFTHEPANJAB
be a Khatri and now a different story. One should speak the truth if one
seeks His Word.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
Unknown wrote in message
<916501351.13354.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
JATOFTHEPANJAB
Yes. We Jatts should unite and look after our tribal affairs.
Jamil is Raza your subcaste like mine is Nijjhar?
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
Jamil Raza wrote in message <36A089...@sun.leeds.ac.uk>...
>gan...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <369D18...@sun.leeds.ac.uk>,
>> ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
>> > Unknown wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Also around Faisalabad (Lyallpur) there are many Jatts.
>> >
>> > You seem to be basing your opinions on the people you have met in
>> > England. Basically Jatts are the largest ethnic group in all areas of
>> > West Punjab except Rawalpindi (which is Rajput), Mianwali
>> > (Punjabi-speaking Niazi Pakhtun) and Dera Gazi Khan (Punjabi-speaking
>> > Baluch). The Jatt heartland is the region around Lahore. Punjab above
>> > Multan is predominantly Jatt and Gujjar, Punjab below Multan (i.e.
>> > Siraiki-speaking areas) is predominantly Jatt and Baluch.
>> >
>> > > The Arai tribe are also meant to be Jatts who changed their names
upon
>> > > conversion to Islam. Alot of them used to live in the Jullundhur area
before
>> > > partition.
>> >
>> > Arains in Pakistan claim to be a sub-caste or tribe of the Jatts, a
>> > claim which Jatts do not accept. Arains in England are making the
>> > fantastic and historically untenable claim that they are the
descendents
>> > of Muhammad Bin Qasim's army.
>> >
>> > Jamil
>> >
>>
>> I say whichever Saka groups wants to be a Jat - let them be. Otherwise,
>> these petty clan-tribal skirmishes leads to the denigrated clan/group
>> mobolizing to get some mischevious Bahman/Maulvi to invent a "higher"
>> pedigree for them.
>>
>> Jats can be too "proud" sometimes - for their own good.
>>
>> My own theory is that so called "Rajputs" (a post 10th century phenomina)
>> were orignally "poorer" segment of Sakas (e.g. Jats. Gujars, etc.) who
felt
>> slighted by the other Jats/Gujars holding better and more valuable lands
in
>> Punjab/northern Rajasthan. I mentioned before that Jat lands are more
fertile
>> while Rajput territory is on less productive sandy and hilly terrain.
>>
>> This FRICTION provided the Brahmins a way to "infiltrate" Saka society
after
>> Buddhism by taking bribes and patronage from the less privledged sections
of
>> Sakas and doing social propaganda for them - inventing them as "superior
>> Rajputs". Then, they ganged up with the Afghans and Moguls south of
Punjab
>> instead of helping Jats and benefitted from their patronage. The irony
is
>> that Rajputs arose and prospored primarily due to their partnership with
>> Afghans/Moguls between 12-16th century.
>>
>> Consequences, maybe promoted by Jat arrogance in the first place.
>>
>> This would be similar to what you say about the Arians using some
>> Maulvi to become Qasim's descendents after Jats reject them. If
>> Jats let them be "Jats" - both will be better off.
>>
>> I will bet that the Mohajirs are delighted at this discord !!!
>>
>> Better to get all the Saka tribes into some sort of Saka Nation type
>> of thing and teach them a common history ?
>>
>> What do you fellas think ?
>>
>> Gandasa
>
>Punjabi society is tribalist and casteist to the core, which probably
>explains why we've been colonial subjects of foriegners for so many
>centuries until the reign of Sher-e-Punjab Ranjeet Singh. Tribalism is a
>fact of life that we can't simply wish away. I don't think that things
>are as straight forward as Jatt vs Brahmin. In fact historically Jatts
>were often allied with Brahmins against the rest of Punjabis. There are
>many historical anecdotes and tradtions in Punjab that lump Jatts and
>Brahmins together as the oppressors of the rest of the population.
>
>In West Punjab society is split between those tribes who hold onto to
>their original Hindu-Buddhist identities ( the true Punjabis i.e.
>Jatts, Gujjars and Awans) and those who are now claiming fake foriegn
>"Islamic" descents (Rajputs, Kashmiris, Arains) and who are allied with
>those of geniune foriegn descent (Mughals, Quereshis,Shirazis etc)
>
ek_pak...@my-dejanews.com
rafiqs...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <77srui$hqd$1...@nnrp1.dejanew
>
> ...especially the way your mom does it.:)
> Rafiq Shabaaz
Hahaha well said Rafiq...
Ek
Jamil Raza
>
> What is your surname and the family tree please? You told me that you may
> be a Khatri and now a different story. One should speak the truth if one
> seeks His Word.
>
Exactly. At one stage he was claiming to be a descendent of the Prophet
Muhammed, now he's
claiming to be an Awaan! Awaans are nothing to do with Syeds. I tell
you, Pakistanis in England are a very queer bunch of people!
Jamil
> Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
> A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
> Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
> Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
> Allah (Spirit),
> http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
> http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
> http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
> http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
> http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
> http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
>
Jamil Raza
>
> Hi Jamil,
>
> Yes. We Jatts should unite and look after our tribal affairs.
>
> Jamil is Raza your subcaste like mine is Nijjhar?
Hi Chaudhry sahab,
No, there is no Raza subcaste. My subcaste is Tarthaal.
Jamil
Unknown
Please show me where I did !!!
Jamil Raza wrote in message <36A760...@sun.leeds.ac.uk>...
>JATOFTHEPANJAB wrote:
>>
>> What is your surname and the family tree please? You told me that you
may
>> be a Khatri and now a different story. One should speak the truth if one
>> seeks His Word.
>>
>
>Exactly. At one stage he was claiming to be a descendent of the Prophet
>Muhammed, now he's
>claiming to be an Awaan! Awaans are nothing to do with Syeds. I tell
>you, Pakistanis in England are a very queer bunch of people!
>
>Jamil
>
>
>> Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
>> A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
>> Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
>> Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of
Living
>> Allah (Spirit),
>> http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
>> http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
>> http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
>>
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
>> http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
>> http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
>>
JATOFTHEPANJAB
I am happy to know that you know your subcaste. If you know it , then use
it after your name.
Are Tarthaal Jatt please or of any other caste?
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/sikhism.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/sikhism.htm
Jamil Raza wrote in message <36A761...@sun.leeds.ac.uk>...
S Singh Sandhu
This is off topic , besides people of south west asia , does anyone else have matted hair as children?
JATOFTHEPANJAB
Vijay S. Bajwa wrote in message <36A3CA...@iscp.bellcore.com>...
>Jamil and Rajinder Nijjhar realise the essence of Jathood, even
>my brother Sandeep misses it by a bargepole sometimes (and I've
>met few people who have his breadth of knowledge on things
>Punjabi). The essense of Jatthood is that religion is secondary.
>We ARE an extremely tribal society.
Tribes establish your covenant with the elder and that keep you afresh of
your family heritage. When you have conscience of your elders, then you
have shame or HEEYA otherwise you could be speaking rubbish without being
put to shame.
Sons of Man live in Peace and not the sons of Satan. Hide your tribal
identity, you become a son of Satan.
> There is an anecdote that
>my grandfather used to tell of Aurangzeb offering to pay a large
>sum of money to a Chaudhry to get him to converge some jatt
>villages to Islam. The Chaudhry grumbled:
> "Ji, thuade bbuzurg ne taaN aedhey naaLon zaada paise
>dittey si"
>
Jatts were not happy to become Mohammadans but they were forced by the
circumstances.
>Mostly Jatts don't care about religion, but let someone
>try to throw his weight around (eg. Indira Gandhi). Pher saadi
>poonsch nuN agg lagdi ae. That's why Hanuman was probably a
>Jatt. WohTi kisse hor di, chukk ke koi hor lae giya, saale
>ne poonsch nuN apni nooN agg la lei.
>
Same way, Khatris were killed in Rawalpindi, Lala Tara Singh Malhotra was
preparing Jatt youths to die for them. Why? They looted and fleeced the
people, when they had to give account, then they called Jatts for help.
Jatts never cheated or fleeced others.
>As to this "Marhi Thari" brand of Punjabi boli, we find it in
>abundance in areas around Chandigarh. We roll on the floor
>with laughter at such instances as: (anyone want to take a stab
>at the meanings?)
>
>1. Oh Guru, utha gode gode kuRi paRae
>
>2. Oh, ohi! Jihde patt bhiDaN!!!
> This is an obscure one. The subject is referring to a very
> skinny dude, sarcastically referring to him as one whose
> thigs get in each other's way (patt bhiDde ohde)
>
>--
>Vijay S. Bajwa
>
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.nijjhar.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm
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>
JATOFTHEPANJAB
Mir Puriae are not Jatts and sometimes they call themselves Rajput. Rajput
means son of a Rajah but a Rajah has no sons or daughters.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jatt of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
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ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk wrote in message <77qkf8$ppn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <916278430.3783.0...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> "Unknown" <unkown...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Arrey..I'm telling you guys...in Azad Kashmir...Mir Pur, Muzaffarabad and
>> all the districts near the line of control are Jatt dominated.
>
>Listen, low IQ Potohari-brain, Jatts live on the plains, very few Jatts are
to
>be found in the hills, especially the high alpine-type hills of
Muzzafrabad.
>Even by the time you reach the low-lying hills of Rawalpindi and Mirpur the
>percentage of Jatts in the population drops dramatically from say Gujarat,
>Faislabad, Sialkot or Lahore - traditional Jatt areas.
>
>> In Bradford (a town in north England) the majority of the population are
>> from Mir Pur and they are all Jatt. That partly explains why they are
>> regarded as low-life, working class people amongst the rest of the
Pakistani
>> community here in UK.
>
>Yes, this is correct. People from Mirpur and Rawalpindi are looked down
upon
>by plains Punjabis as primitive peasants and savages. But the reason for th
is
>has nothing to do with them being Jatts. How can it, when most plains
>Punjabis are Jatts and most Mirpuris and Pindi-waals are Rajputs? The main
>reason for this condescending and racist attitude is the dialect spoken in
>Rawalpindi and Mirpur, Potohari. On hearing this language being spoken most
>Punjabis cannot but roll on the floor with laughter. This has given rise to
>many jokes about people from Mirpur and Rawalpindi. All these jokes
conclude
>with a punch line in the Potohari-Mirpuri dialect. Hearing "Kuthay jalya
eN,
>papa?" or "MaRee ThaRee" "Micki Thicki" is more than the average Punjabi
can
>bear to hear without rolling on the floor in laughter. People from
Rawalpindi
>try to hide their origins by speaking the standard dialect of Punjabi, but
>most of us can tell what they are from their thick, unusual-sounding
accents.
>They also try to pretend that they are different from Mirpuris, something
the
>rest of us go along with to their faces, but in private we don't
distinguish
>between Pindi-waals and Mirpuris. Why should we? We can't tell the bloody
>difference between them. Please note that I utterly condemn the racism
shown
>to people from Rawalpindi and Mirpur. I am not condoning any of this. I am
>simply commenting on the sad social situation in Pakistan as it is today.
>
>> Before you all accuse me of being castist...I'm not
>> condoning that atittude...just pointing out that it exists.
>>
>> As for Jatts being a majority in West Punjab...I don't think so, but then
I
>> can only speak for my own district (Rawalpindi).
>
>As I already wrote, Rawalpindi isn't a Jatt area.
>
>> Why is the Jatt caste so
>> venerated in East Punjab and looked down upon in West Punjab ? For us,
Jatt
>> = Peasant/Farmer which means someone who is at the bottom of the societal