tables and chairs from gurdwaras ordered to be removed...
amar
Akal Takat has just 'ordered' that all gurdwaras around the world must
remove tables and chairs.
Anyone who does not follow their order will face severe consequences. And
called 'fugitives' (sp?)
I think this is the most sickest decision made by Akal takat amritsar. and
does this mean people who can't sit on the floor due to health reasons can
not go to gurdwaras anymore?
any comments on this?
Mo
I think the Sikh 'priestocracy ' is turning out to be much
worse than the Brahmin one ! Polytheism is much kinder to humans and
women .
Harpreet Kaur Atwal
I can't see what the big fuss is about eating langar on the floor instead
of on tables and chairs. When we go to the gurudwara and sit in sangat we
sit there for some time. Eating langar does not take more than five or 10
min max so what is the fuss about.
Rajwinder Singh
amar (yu10...@yorku.ca) wrote in article <01bd8942$e2f51000$ebbe...@E3107723.cprail.com> on 27 May 1998 07:46:14 GMT :
>Akal Takat has just 'ordered' that all gurdwaras around the world must
>remove tables and chairs.
>Anyone who does not follow their order will face severe consequences. And
>called 'fugitives' (sp?)
>I think this is the most sickest decision made by Akal takat amritsar. and
>does this mean people who can't sit on the floor due to health reasons can
>not go to gurdwaras anymore?
>any comments on this?
No, it does not mean people who are infirm or diasbled HAVE to sit
on the floor or not come to the gurduaras.
It does mean that those who are in good health need to take their
butts off the comfy chairs and learn about some 'gareebee' -- one
of the blessings Guru Nanak sahib received from Waheguru's Court
("baba paidhaa sach khanD naunidh naam gareebee paaee" -- Bhai Gurdas ji).
It also means that we need to rein in our egos and
get on with the practice of the presctiption of the
hukamnamah. If you have too much trouble and would rather
stick to your own opinions, maybe you should introspect
and find out why this is so, why you think it is
'most sickest.'
COme back after a few weeks and let me know what you choose to do.
all the best
rs
--
-- Rajwinder Singh <ra...@bu.edu>
_______________________________________________________________________
sikkeh zad bar har dui aalam tegh-i-naanak waahib ast
fateh gobind singh shaah-i-shaahaa(n) fazl i sacha saahib ast
The sword of the central Doctrine of Nanak destroys the evils of both
the worlds, the poverty and slavery on this earth, and the sickness of
the soul hereafter, and we hereby proclaim our sovereignity over both
the worlds, the seen and the unseen. The final victory in our struggle
has been vouchsafed by Guru Gobind Singh, the Harbinger of the good
tidings of the ever present Grace of God.
--Inscription from a Sikh coin struck by Banda Singh Bahadur in 1710
ramk...@imap3.asu.edu
Harpreet Kaur Atwal (lbu9...@reading.ac.uk) wrote:
: I can't see what the big fuss is about eating langar on the floor instead
: of on tables and chairs. When we go to the gurudwara and sit in sangat we
: sit there for some time. Eating langar does not take more than five or 10
: min max so what is the fuss about.
Well said... ISKCON temples serve their Sundsy evening dinner/prashad
and people eat it sitting on the floors. Only problem can be for someone
who can't sit on the floor and I am sure the temple/Gurudwara folks
aren't that sick!
Regards, --Ramakrishna.
Kashif Qureshi
I see that Mo has turned on the Sikhs now.
I am sorry, Mr Atwal, I apologise that the filth that emanates from his
mouth will now come to offend your peoples too.
Mo, You really are stupid because you are alienating a very important
section of India's society.
Why don't you stop trying to plug polytheism by trying to insult other
religions. I don't think that Krishna would be very impressed by your
attitude to your fellow humans. You are not kind to them at all. You preach
war, hatred and division. You make up lies to try to discredit all the
people you disagree with.
As I have said to you before, you do suffer from a personality disorder,
which is a mental illness, for which you can be treated. I suggest you go
and see a psychiatrist, because you need to release this repressed anger and
resentment that you radiate.
Harpreet Kaur Atwal wrote in message ...
Akhlesh Lakhtakia
Harpreet Kaur Atwal wrote:
> I can't see what the big fuss is about eating langar on the floor instead
> of on tables and chairs. When we go to the gurudwara and sit in sangat we
> sit there for some time. Eating langar does not take more than five or 10
> min max so what is the fuss about.
I agree. A langar is also a community gathering, and eating on the
floor is just fine.
A. Lakhtakia
Kashif Qureshi
Why did you do that Mo? Why post that message if you knew it would cause
upset to someone somewhere, and then attach some sarcastic comments to
support the confrontational manner of the post?
What is the point, you have now angered and insulted some Sikh people as
well as all of the Muslims that may read this group. You are only interested
in causing trouble and stirring up anger in people.
Why did you not post it attached with words which were not likely to insult
any Sikhs that may read it? The reason is that you are intellectually
incapable of holding a reasonable conversation with anyone, without
referring to petty insults and accusations.
I think that this displays just how superficial your mind is and how
unprepared you are for a world where people are not interested in fighting
and killing. It is ironic because you accuse many people of violent crimes
and yet you seem to advocate more violence!
The sheer number of your posts and the insulting and hate filled tones of
them, suggest to me that you are becoming increasingly more obsessed with
venting your hatred. I think that you suffer from deep repression. Perhaps
you have repressed feelings of anger towards a family member or something.
The point is, take your insults elsewhere. If you are not prepared to talk
rationally then don't talk at all.
Mo <11305...@mcompuserve.com> wrote in message
<361fe120....@news.clara.net>...
> I did not write that article . i merely put it in the
>Pakistani ng where I knew somebody would take the bait.
Warren Betanko
Now correct me if i am wrong. When Guru Nanak decreed that all would partake
of langar would be at the same level ghe never said specifically on the floor.
If i am not mistaken tables and chairs were not available in great quantity or
were all that common in those days.
If one follows the logic of the akal takht and the hukamnama then wouldnt it
also be logical that the other modern acruements of todays gurdawara dining
hall's also be removed?
What of electric lighting? Electric and Gas stoves? Forks and Spoons? What of
styrofoam plates that are occasionally used?
Does this mean that only the traditional foods that were available in those
days should be served and nothing that is culturally normal in north america
or britain or australia acceptable in a langar?
If there is a greater degree of humility sitting on the floor at meal, then
one could argue the same that there is gradations of humility and of the
modern conveniences that may be used in food preperation.
Kushwant Singh wrote not to long ago (i wish i had saved the article) that he
has found gurdawaras where pizza and pop is served, beer (which i dont agree
with) served in langar hall in australia and beans in england.
The issue in British Columbia is NOT of tables and chairs but of control of
the Gurdawara. A very small minority of fundamentalists who have been losing
their power because support for their extremist views is no longer held by the
majority of sikhs is using this as an issue.
For 10 years that the Sureey BC gurdawara was controlled by the extremists,
tables and chairs was never an issue. 4 months after they lose the election it
becomes the most important issue to them.
22 gurdawaras representing over 100,000 Sikhs in BC have now signed a letter
to Ranjit Singh and the Shiromani Gurdawara Parbandhak Committee stating that
they disagree not only with the hukamnama but the process with which is was
arrived at. I would suggest that past covention dictates that the Akal Takhat
can't issue edicts without consulting Sikhs worldwide.
If this was an issue of just one temple or two temples i might be willing to
admit i am wrong. But it is almost ALL gurdawaras in BC.
My mother in law gets up every morning at 4am to say her prayers. She again
does this every evening at 7pm. When we lived in vancouver she would walk
every morning and evening to the gurdawara even though it is medically
difficult for her to walk 10 city blocks. She would refuse the offer of a car
ride. She just immigrated here to Canada 3 years ago. She is the most devout
sikh i have met and yet she thinks this issue of chairs and tables is a non issue.
"The climate is different between india and canada" she says. "And if these
people are upset because they cant control the gurdwara's then too bad,
Gurdawara's should not become political like they were under the british"
I think my mother in law makes sense.
just my two cents
Warren Betanko
Mo
Mo
One can see some logic in this missive. Sitting on the floor
makes the group feel more at one level , at ease with each other .
However many in the West no longer know how to sit cross legged and
can no longer do it as there thighs have become too heavy to cross and
so they should be excused.
Mo
On Wed, 27 May 1998 20:08:49 +0100, "Kashif Qureshi"
<kas...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>?I see that Mo has turned on the Sikhs now.<
Doctor sahib you are working too hard or laying too many
nurses. What insult is it to say that eating langar on the floor is an
attempt by the Priestocracy to impose rules. It has been made by
another Sikh as you can see if you go to soc.culture.punjab ( be
waned Sikhs can use some very offensive language!) .
Kashif Qureshi
Mo <11305...@mcompuserve.com> wrote in message
<36280e6d....@news.clara.net>...
>On Wed, 27 May 1998 20:08:49 +0100, "Kashif Qureshi"
><kas...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>?I see that Mo has turned on the Sikhs now.<
> Doctor sahib you are working too hard or laying too many
>nurses.
More insults I see. Good to see that you demonstrate my point that you have
no ability to make a point without insulting someone.
Warren Betanko
Now this is pretty amazing. I post what i think will be a provocative posting
and no one cares! Instead lost of crap kicking the shit out of each other
because of our religions but it appears no one wants to bother discussing
issues of real importance or controversy!
Where are the pro tables ppl... where r the anti tables ppl!
wb
thind
I have been living in Canada for over 35 years now, and have never seen such
a stupid controvery . My friends, we are entering the 21 century now, and we
still can't make up our minds about how to eat langar. Either we should
join the modern world or revert back to our centuries old primitive ways of
living. As this has been pointed out by many people here that the langar
issue is just an excuse by the fundamentalists to re-gain the control of sikh
gurudwaras which they had lost in a free voting system. As far as the
Jathedar is concerned, he has stepped out of his shoes by ordering the people
to eat food on the floor. He has done irreparable damage to the entire Sikh
-religion. There are 23 Gurudwara Societies in B.C., opposing this
unnecessary hukamnama, and represent more than 75% of the sikh population
here. As far these fundamentalists' views go, they have opened up a place
called Dashmesh Darbar. Their constitution does not allow free elections for
the Excutive commitees. This is and will be run like a private property (
business). But these people are misusing the constitutional powers of other
Sikh Temples, which they do not allow in their own Templ's constitution..
This is a shame for our entire sikh community to face such an issue of no
importance , which has lowered the image of each punjabi throughout the
world.. People are making it a mockery of our religion and the so called
Jathedar for telling us "how and where to eat". I do not want to go in
details, but the people have started to question the qualifications (wisdom)
of the jathedar.. What is next? Every one wonders, if we will be told, what
foods to eat or what kind of clothing to wear, etc. etc. The divisions
created by him go deeper than it seems from the surface. This all has to do
with power and greed.
Wishing everyone the best for today and always.....Major
Singh
Mo
Well said. Monotheism always leads to loss of freedom and
control by the priestocracy. God is not one but many or none..
On Sat, 06 Jun 1998 20:25:29 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
SikhKnight
mr thind
r u an amritdhari sikh?
thind
Last Updated: Monday 15 June 1998
Local News
Sikh group urges Air India charges
Salim Jiwa, Staff Reporter The Province
Hurry up and lay the charges.
That was the message to the RCMP's Air Disaster Task
Force probing the murders of 331 people in the twin bombings of June
1985, orchestrated by Sikh militants in B.C.
Nearly 600 moderate Sikhs gathered at Bear Creek
hall in Surrey to demand quicker action from the RCMP against several
suspected terrorists who were behind history's worst case of aviation
bombing, the
downing of Air India Flight 182.
A bomb dispatched from B.C. on the same day exploded
at Tokyo's Narita airport, killing two baggage handlers.
Most of those at the rally said privately that they
feel if the RCMP lay charges, the community will be able to breathe
easier.
There is widespread agreement in the Sikh community
on who will be charged when the RCMP's probe is completed.
Moderates feel the primary suspects in the Air India
disaster are behind the current push for removal of tables and chairs
from
communal kitchens at Sikh temples.
"If they take them away and lock them up, the
community will finally live in peace," said one Sikh.
RCMP have released no new time-table for completing
their investigation, which most believe will result in charges against
at
least five people to start with.
Police plan to continue the investigation after
charges are laid to snare additional people that the probe has
identified as
suspects.
Meanwhile, Vancouver police were called Saturday to
the Ross Street Sikh temple when several outsiders staged a sit-in on
the
floor.
The temple is among several that have refused to
remove the furniture despite an edict signed by high priest Ranjit
Singh, who is
based in Amritsar, India.
========================================================================
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last Updated: Monday 15 June
1998
TOP
STORIES
Rally airs frustration
Kim Bolan Vancouver Sun
Since his sister and her children
were killed when Air India flight 182
exploded 13 years ago, Major Sidhu
has been unable to find peace.
He has waited and hoped for
charges to be laid in the 1985
bombing to no avail.
On Sunday he joined about 700
other Indo-Canadians at Surrey's
Bear Creek community hall to
express his frustration at the pace
of the investigation into the
bombing, which killed 329 and
ranks as Canada's worse mass
murder.
"The police should know who did
this bad thing and should arrest
them," Sidhu said.
He said he is disappointed that
police have not kept him and his
parents informed of the investigation
into the deaths of his sister
Sukhminder Uppal and her daughter
Parminder, 10 and nine-year-old
son Kuldip
"I feel I'm in the dark," Sidhu said.
"I don't have any peace of mind for
the
last 13 years."
Most at Sunday's meetings, without
naming names, blamed Sikh fundamentalists active in B.C. in the
'80s for bombing the plane as part of their struggle for an independent
Sikh
nation they call Khalistan.
Meeting organizer Gurnam Singh Sanghera, of the
Indo-Canadian
Workers' Association, said charges would go a long way to lift the cloud
that still hangs
over the heads of all Sikhs.
"There is a negative image of the turbaned-people,"
Sangera said.
"We want that image of our community to be completely removed . . . our
community
does not believe in bombing and terrorism or in violence."
The meeting was the first of its kind in which
Indo-Canadians spoke openly
about the Air India case and their desire for arrests to be made.
Sohan Singh Deo, a former president of Vancouver's
Ross Street temple,
said if no arrests are made in the near future then police should admit
their defeat
and leave the community alone.
"We don't want this case always hanging over our
heads," Deo said.
"Those who are the culprits should be brought out. My community wants
it."
He criticized supporters of the Khalistan
movement, who controlled B.C.'s
largest temples for a decade but have lost control in the last two
years, for not doing
anything to benefit the community.
While speaker after speaker paid tribute to the
Air India victims most also
mentioned the furniture issue, blaming the same people who supported
the motives of the
bombers with inciting division and calling for the removal of tables
and chairs.
Meanwhile, police were called to the Ross Street
temple Saturday when a
group of about 60 people from Abbotsford and Surrey arrived to protest
the
executives' decision to keep tables and chairs at the temple.
The group, who went straight to the dining hall
without praying before the Guru
Grants Sahib, removed shoes, sat on the floor without taking food and
loudly
began chanting prayers.
Abbotsford resident Piara Singh Parmar, a former
national president of the
militant International Sikh Youth Federation, lead the prayers and
spoke to
police on behalf of the group.
Standing right beside him was Parmjit Singh,
another ISYF activist, who
arrived in Canada a decade ago as a refugee along with 173 others
aboard a
ship that dumped them off the coast of Nova Scotia.
Harbhajan Singh Basi, who had booked the temple
for a three-day religious
program, was angry at the protesters. "Here are a bunch of uninvited
people
and they are interrupting my program here. I have requested them twice
to
stop, but they have ignored me."
He said the program was for family members to
pray for his son Sukhdeep,
who has endured two brain operations and was also celebRating oneis
15th birthday.
Vancouver police Constable Bill Maher said the
officers present did not
intervene in the protest, which lasted two hours, because it was
peaceful.
"Our rule is to keep the peace in these situations.
Nothing else," he said.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==================================================================
Last updated: Monday 15 June 1998
NATIONAL NEWS
Hundreds demand charges in
Air India bombing SURREY,
B.C. (CP) - Since his sister and
her children were killed when
Air India flight 182 exploded 13
years ago, Major Sidhu has
been unable to find peace.
He has waited and hoped for
charges to be laid in the 1985
bombing to no avail. On Sunday
he joined about 700 other
Indo-Canadians at a rally in
Surrey to express his
frustration at the lack of
charges in the bombing, which
killed 329 and ranks as
Canada’s worse mass murder.
"The police should know who
did this bad thing and should
arrest them," Sidhu said.
He said he is disappointed that
police have not kept him and his
parents informed of the
investigation into the deaths of
his sister Sukhminder Uppal
and her daughter Parminder,
10 and nine-year-old son
Kuldip.
"I feel I’m in the dark," Sidhu
said. "I don’t have any peace of
mind for the last 13 years."
Most of the people at Sunday’s
meetings blamed Sikh
fundamentalists active in B.C.
in the ’80s for bombing the
plane as part of their struggle
for an independent Sikh nation
they called Khalistan.
Meeting organizer Gurnam
Singh Sanghera, of the
Indo-Canadian Workers’
Association, said charges would
go a long way to lift the cloud
that still hangs over the heads
of all Sikhs.
"There is a negative image of
the turbaned-people," Sangera
said. "We want that image of
our community to be
completely removed . . . our
community does not believe in
bombing and terrorism or in
violence."
While speaker after speaker
paid tribute to the Air India
victims most also mentioned
recent tension over an edict
from the religion’s ruling body
to remove tables and chairs
from temples. They blamed the
same people who supported the
motives of the bombers with
inciting division and calling for
the removal of tables and
chairs.
Police were called to
Vancouver’s Ross Street temple
Saturday when a group of about
60 people from Abbotsford and
Surrey arrived to protest the
executives’ decision to keep
tables and chairs at the temple,
contrary to an edict from the
religion’s ruling body.
The group sat on the floor,
loudly chanting prayers.
Vancouver police constable Bill
Maher said that although
officers were present, they did
not intervene in the two-hour
protest because it was peaceful.
"Our rule is to keep the peace
in these situations. Nothing
else," he said.
(Vancouver Sun)
br>
(C) The Canadian Press, 1998.
=======================================================================
Mo
thind
Lately, several Hukamnanmas have been issued by Akaal Takhat Jathedaar to the sikh community .
As everyone is aware of the Langar Hukanama issued by Bhaii Ranjit Singh on April 20/98, many Sikh Temples
in the west have not complied with it. And the preists have boycotted performing their allotted duties. It
does not seem proper for the sikh preachers to black-mail the Gurudwara committees this way. Their job was,
and still is,( if they think they are religious people,) to preach about the teachings of our religion. By
the way, these preists held a congregation of more than 5000 people from all over British Columbia , Alberta
and from western U. S. states, which doesn't shows the opinion of mojority . And a few months back a
Hukanama was issued by the same Jathedar , regarding the sikh marriages not be performed in Restaurants and
Halls, because of these places do not show respect for our Holy Guru Granth Sahib,. The people drink beer
and alcohol after the ceremonies in these places. But now how about taking Sri Guru Granth Sahib into school
gymnasiums, where all kind of drugs, smoking and drinking goes on. And other obscene acts are performed
there as well. All this was like opening up a shop for collecting money. This is a very hypocratic act by
these protectors of Maryadas and Hukamnamas. Furthermore they have passed some resolutions , among these was
one that the Gurmat Parcharik Committee will recommend the people to be elected at election times.That means
they will bring forward the people of their own choice to manage the sikh temples.So from now on Granthies
will not only perform the religious affaires , but also political affaires as well. These people seem to be
acting more like politicians rather than religious preachers . These people didn't realize, that they can
blackmail a few Gurudwara Committees and a few people , but they can not highjack the entire sikh community.
Threats are not going to solve anything. We are living in a democractic society, ans should learn to live as
such. Now these people have opened up their own Darbaar and should have some peace of mind. And let others
live in peace. First of all you have to practice, what you want to preach.to the others. Then and only then
other people will follow you. Our guru Sahibs have shown us to live a life of honesty, love, tolerance peace
and compassion. Let us join together living in keeping in peace
.
Mo
The basic flaw is monotheism - one god onlyy stuff imported to
India by the Islamists. It ALWAYS leads to dictatorship and loss of
freedoms . It should be abandoned by all sane people as it is not fair
on women and apes..
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:14:18 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
GURPREET SANDHU
Thind sahib,
I won't waste too much of your time and be concise and to the point.
First and the foremost, you are talking about following what our Gurus
taught us. But if we guys had really followed our Gurus' teachings then
there would have never been a need for the hukumnaama for "langar", as
simple as that. I don't think there should be a divided opinion
about what our Gurus' teachings to us were on the issue of "langar".
On the issue of marriages, I completely agree with the hukumnaama and it
was long time coming. Just answer one simple question for me. Do you feel
its okay for us to take Guru Granth Sahib Ji where ever we want to get His
blessings or Should we rather be going to His place (Guru Ghar or
Gurudwara) to get His blessings?
BTW, you can celebrate where ever you want to (after lavaan - phere) and
however you want to, but give some respect to our last living Guru and go
to HIM to get His blessings, instead of taking Him to wherever you feel
like.
Thats all..
Hope that helps..
Regards,
Gurpreet Singh Sandhu
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998,
thind wrote:
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:14:18 -0700
> From: thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.punjab, alt.culture.us.asian-indian,
> soc.culture.indian.delhi, soc.culture.indian,
> sing...@intergate.bc.ca
> Subject: Hukamnamas and more......
thind
Last Updated: Tuesday 7 July 1998
OPINION
Today's Editorial:
Courage needed to counteract violence
Cancelling a religious procession in Surrey was a
faint-hearted response to a perceived threat.
Law-abiding citizens shouldn't lose their rights because
of a theological dispute.
Vancouver Sun
Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum found himself in an unenviable position last
week when he was warned by RCMP officers that a parade by local Sikhs
could end in bloodshed.
To prevent injury or death, Mr. McCallum, as the ranking municipal authority,
was asked to prevent law-abiding Canadians from holding a religious
procession that is an annual event. The threat of thuggery was deemed so
great, and the prophylactic ability of the RCMP so lacking, he cancelled a
peaceful march by an estimated 10,000 Canadians. This decision, however
well-intentioned, was wrong.
The province's gurdwaras have been riven in recent months by a theological
dispute that is being exploited by a minority who embrace a strident,
ultra-conservative interpretation of the faith. The ostensible issue appears
trivial, the use of tables and chairs in certain areas of the gurdwara, or
Sikh
house of worship. But the dispute over seating arrangements should be seen
in the same light as the Great Schism over the Filioque, that small, seemingly
innocuous phrase ("and from the son") inserted into the Nicene Creed that
rent the Western Church. As with every religious debate, the outcome is
integral to the faithful if only curious to those outside.
Below the surface in many B.C. gurdwaras, the debate is especially intense
because it is the latest battlefield in a power struggle between those who
have
dominated Sikh politics for a decade and those now ascendant.
There has been a sea-change in the B.C. Sikh community. Those who once
counselled and celebrated the dismemberment of India now find themselves
being replaced. These hardmen of the Sikh separatist struggle are not going
quietly into any good night.
Closing our eyes to the reality of the turmoil and curtailing the rights of
citizens because we fear those fanatics is a dangerous and ugly policy.
The efficacy of violence is that it exploits the fears of ordinary people. It
can
only be counteracted by courage and solidarity. That is why British Prime
Minister Tony Blair flew to Ireland and stood in front of a destroyed church
to
face down those who would sabotage the latest peace: "This is the past
behind me. Do not ever let us say that the people who perpetrate acts like
that are going to win."
Mr. McCallum had a similar chance to stand up and say enough is enough.
Instead of cancelling the parade, he should have led it. It would have been
risky and dangerous, like Mr. Blair's response in Northern Ireland. But the
violent will only be borne away if we are willing to pay the price.
We should be ashamed of the cowardice urged by the RCMP. And we should
be ashamed it is no longer safe to walk the streets with our neighbours to
celebrate their culture.
thind
Subject:
Vancouver Sun - Top Stories
Date:
Mon, 06 Jul 1998 20:18:19 -0700
Last Updated: Monday 6 July
1998
TOP STORIES
Threats fail to spoil Sikh
festival
Celebrants expressed their
disappointment after fears of
violence confined a parade to
a parking lot.
Kim Bolan Vancouver Sun
Thousands of Sikhs celebrated
the religious holiday Miri
Piri in
Surrey Sunday, despite a
decision by the mayor's office
to
deny a parade permit after
fundamentalists threatened
violence.
Meanwhile, Surrey RCMP spent
the weekend looking for "a
couple of individuals" as part
of
their criminal investigation
into
the threats that had civic
officials concerned enough to
stop the annual march.
Balwant Singh Gill, president
of
Surrey's Guru Nanak temple
and one of the targets of the
threats, wore a bullet-proof
vest
and was surrounded by RCMP
officers throughout the
day-long
celebration, which was
confined
to the temple's two-block-long
parking lot.
"If somebody wants to get me,
fine -- I am not going to hide
out in my basement," Gill said. "I have been
elected to serve this
congregation and this day is a very special day for
Sikhs."
RCMP Constable Grant Learned
said that despite the disappointment
cancelling the parade brought,
police felt there was no alternative given the
"magnitude and seriousness" of
information provided by police sources.
"We strongly anticipated there
would be direct physical confrontation and
harm not only to specifically
targeted individuals but also to innocent
participants in the event,"
Learned said.
Gill led a procession, which
included the Sikh holy book, Guru Granth Sahib,
a balloon-covered float and
thousands of followers, out onto the streets to
challenge the ban on the
parade, but police were blocking the road and the
marchers returned to the
temple grounds.
"This is a peaceful march,"
Gill told approaching police. "We have no intention
of breaking the law."
Police helicopters monitored
the crowd, estimated at almost 10,000, from
overhead, while some of the
more than 60 officers present checked for snipers
in the wooded area bordering
on the temple property.
But the day was peaceful as
thousands said prayers, sang hymns and gave
away food, pop, balloons,
sweets and chai -- Indian tea.
Gill said that police urged
him to wear the bullet-proof vest, though he said he
is not concerned about the
threats.
"I do not take these threats
too seriously," he said. "Police should be taking
proper measures, not stopping
the parade."
But police and the mayor felt
they had successfully cut down the threat by
preventing the religious
celebration from moving to the streets, evoking strong
community reaction Sunday.
"The mayor of Surrey and
police have caved in to certain elements that have
tried to hijack our community
since 1984," said Gurnam Singh Sanghera, of
the Indo-Canadian Workers'
Association. "We condemn the mayor of Surrey
and the RCMP for not
protecting law-abiding citizens."
Health Minister Penny Priddy
criticized those responsible for threatening
violence.
"I stand here today with
disappointment and with anger," she said. "I don't
take issue with the RCMP or
the mayor. But I am angry that a tradition in this
community can be stopped by a
group of people who threaten violence."
Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum
spoke to the crowd about unity and the need to
"love thy neighbour."
"Let's bring our community
together," McCallum said.
Immediately after he spoke at
the moderate temple, McCallum drove to the
fundamentalist Dashmesh Darbar
temple, where he addressed a crowd that
police estimated at between
2,000 and 3,000, including members of the Sikh
separatist groups
International Sikh Youth Federation and Babbar Khalsa.
Members of the fundamentalist
temple were the first ones to tell Surrey
RCMP last week that there
would be violence if the march went ahead.
The only trouble at the Guru
Nanak celebration came when a couple of men
from the fundamentalist event
arrived and grabbed signed petitions in defence
of the temple leaders
supporting the use of tables and chairs. The pair tried to
flee with the petitions, but
were stopped by angry moderates. Police are
investigating the incident.
thind
1998
TOP STORIES
Minister to take home 'whole
story'
Kim Bolan Vancouver Sun
A visiting Punjabi cabinet
minister said Sunday that he will take the concerns
of the majority of B.C. Sikh
leaders who want to keep tables and chairs in
their temples back to Sikh
high priest Ranjit Singh in Amritsar.
And Sucha Singh Langah,
minister of state for industries and election, said he
thinks that "mischievous
elements have exploited" the tables and chairs issue
"for their own ends."
Langah is in British Columbia
on a week-long visit to meet with business
leaders and government
officials regarding trade in Punjab, India's most
prosperous state.
But he also joined thousands
of Sikhs at the Miri Piri celebration at the Guru
Nanak temple in Surrey on
Sunday.
Langah said he thinks high
priest Ranjit Singh, who first issued the edict to
remove tables and chairs April
20, had been misinformed about what was
going on in B.C., where the
majority of temples have decided to keep the
furniture.
"I don't think the jathedar
[Ranjit Singh] knows the whole story here," Langah
said.
"He has never travelled
outside the country and visited these temples here."
Ranjit Singh has since issued
another edict, summoning Guru Nanak
president Balwant Singh Gill
and five other B.C. Sikh leaders to Amritsar July
25 to be punished for ignoring the first
edict.
None of those named has
received the summons directly and none intends to
go.
Asked about the B.C. Sikh
tradition of having tables and chairs in the halls
where temple members share the
common meal, Langah said:
"The people wherever they are
living have to adapt and keep local rules
according to the local
customs."
Langah is a member of the
Punjab state governing party, the Akali Dal, and is
also a member of the Shiromani
Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, which is
the body that regulates temple
affairs internationally.
http://www.vancouversun.com/newsite/news/1836088.html
thind
Last Updated: Friday 10 July 1998
OPINION
Temple dispute little to do with
religion
Kim Bolan Vancouver Sun
The gathering of thousands of Sikhs last Sunday at two
Surrey
temples a couple of kilometres apart was about a lot more
than
the annual religious celebration called Miri Piri.
The groups at the moderate Guru Nanak and fundamentalist
Dasmesh Darbar temples illustrated the amount of support
that
each side has mustered in a political struggle that has
played out
in recent months over the seemingly innocuous issue of
whether
people eating in temple dining halls should use tables
and chairs
or sit on the floor.
What the struggle is about, says Surrey RCMP Constable
Grant
Learned, is more basic.
"This is not about tables and chairs. Although,
ostensibly, people
would like you to believe it is about religion, really it
is about
power and control. We are talking about power and control
of the
money," he said.
In the last two years, elections at B.C.'s largest
temples,
Vancouver's Ross Street and Surrey's Guru Nanak, have
been
won by moderate Sikhs after more than a decade of control
by
fundamentalists linked to Sikh separatist groups fighting
for the
establishment of an independent Sikh nation they call
Khalistan.
The fundamentalists' loss of control of the Guru Nanak
temple in
late 1996 led to the violent clashes over tables and
chairs and
charges against 10 people, who go to trial next month.
It also led the fundamentalists to build a new, smaller
temple,
which they named Dasmesh Darbar, in a warehouse at 12885
85th Avenue.
Now some of those fundamentalists are pushing to show
that they
are the true Sikhs because they are adhering to an edict
by high
priest Ranjit Singh, who is based in India, that tables
and chairs
were to be removed from temples world-wide, effective May
29.
But the moderates, who are supported by 26 B.C. Sikh
societies,
say they will not remove the furniture. They believe
Singh has
been influenced by a vocal and violent minority in B.C.
bent on
regaining control of lucrative temples and re-igniting
the Khalistan
movement.
Tensions are high. Last weekend, Surrey RCMP estimated
the
crowd at Dasmesh Darbar at between 2,000 and 3,000, while
attendance at the moderate gathering was estimated at
almost
10,000. The fundamentalists disputed the numbers.
They claimed on a local Punjabi radio show that their
numbers
were closer to 30,000. They tried to persuade the
mainstream
media that the mound of garbage left by the crowd proved
there
were more than 20,000.
Dasmesh temple president Jagtar Singh Sandhu said there
were
more than 20,000 paper plates used at his temple during
last
Sunday's 13-hour celebration, and that some people at the
event
did not eat.
"We have all the bills, we have all the bills to prove
what we have
used,"
Added Sandhu "It is a very hot issue and both sides are
claiming
people are with them. I don't go very much after the
numbers, but
if somebody asks, it was not less than 20,000. Numbers
are
important because everybody likes to say, 'We have
strength.'
Everybody likes to claim it."
The fundamentalist temple has a maximum capacity of 300
people, Surrey building manager Dave Magnusson said,
referring
to the architectural drawings for the temple.
Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum, who addressed the event, said
he
didn't see more than about 300 people in the temple,
though
there was also a crowd outside in the parking lot sharing
traditional food and drinks.
The numbers game was also played June 21, when the
fundamentalists held an event at Vancouver's John Oliver
secondary school. The Vancouver Sun reported 5,000 were
in
attendance, a calculation that drew strong criticism from
participants, who angrily claimed in the Punjabi media
that there
were really 15,000 supporters there.
But this week, Vancouver school board representative
Cynthia
Rotta said the two gyms at John Oliver that were rented
for the
event have a maximum joint capacity of 1,400 people,
according
to both board and fire department regulations.
Learned said the attempt to inflate numbers is part of
the fight for
hearts and minds in the Sikh community.
"It is an attempt to try to show that one temple or
another has
more support or more people in attendance, which would
perhaps then [imply] a degree of prominence within the
community," he said.
The moderates, too, were unhappy with the police estimate
of
attendance at their Miri Piri gathering in the temple's
two-block-long parking lot, which they believe was
attended by
more than 15,000 people.
But given that even the police estimates showed their
crowd was
considerably larger than that drawn by the
fundamentalists, they
didn't make as much out of the discrepancy.
Guru Nanak temple president Balwant Singh Gill said the
fundamentalists "are trying to prove more support than
us. But this
proves nothing. This is not about tables and chairs. I
have been
telling everyone: this is not a religious issue."
Moderates say much of the renewed division in the
community
has come about because police have not laid charges in
some
key criminal investigations linked to the Khalistanis --
the number
one unsolved case being the 1985 Air India bombing, in
which
329 people were killed.
The suspects in that case, all B.C. residents, are
heavily involved
in temple politics.
And Gill said another indication of police inaction came
last
weekend, when the RCMP and city officials decided to
cancel his
temple's annual parade after a threat of fundamentalist
violence,
angering his supporters and civil libertarians.
"If there were threats, the people making them should
have been
put behind bars," he said.
Both Gill and Sandhu agree the escalating tensions will
lead to a
hotly contested election later this month at the Khalsa
Diwan
temple in Abbotsford, where tables and chairs were
whisked
away early on June 1 without the consent of the acting
president.
"I think there will be a close race in Abbotsford,"
Sandhu
predicted.
His people, who support Ranjit Singh's no-furniture
edict, "will be
peacefully everywhere."
Gill said Abbotsford will be the first electoral test for
either side
since the edict took effect.
Moderates from around B.C. plan to rally in Abbotsford on
July 19
to support candidates who want tables and chairs returned
to the
Abbotsford temple, Gill said.
But Learned said that no matter what happens politically,
tensions
have led to a state where "armed police officers are out
there
barricading the perimeters to ensure there is not mayhem
in the
streets" every time there is an event that brings both
sides
together.
"There has got to be a political will and a personal will
for people
to put aside those differences," Learned said, adding
that police
want to help mediate a solution.
"We are prepared to take that initiative. It is outside
the normal
role of the RCMP to do that, but it is almost like we are
going to
have to take on peacekeeper status like the UN in order
to try to
garner some reasonable degree of compromise between the
two
sides."
Mo
people to do without chairs and tables ! What next ? Walking without
shoes ??
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:47:09 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
thind
I have come across a very intresting article about chairs
and tables. I hope it will shell some light on this on going topic.
Yours Truly..Major S.Thind
English Translation of Notice (in Punjabi) dated June 16, 1998
served on Singh Sahib Jathedar Ranjit Singh of Sri Akal Takht Sahib
The dispute that has arisen between the presently appointed Jathedar of Sri
Akal Takht Sahib and the Sikh sangats of British Columbia has caused uproar in
the North American and Punjabi newspapers. It is said that Sri Akal Takht is
the axle of the Sikh religion ; but this definition is only a half truth. An
axle, by itself, cannot do anything ; it requires wheels and power for its
function. When Guru Har Gobind Sahib ji was himself in Amritsar, the power
rested there ; but when he was in Kiratpur Sahib, the power rested in
Kiratpur. The power is Gurbani and, according to "Bani is Guru, and Guru is
Bani", the axle and the power both were vested in Guru Hargobind Sahib ji
himself.
The Sikhs in their everyday prayers declare and remind themselves of the Five
Takhts of Sikhism. It is clear, therefore, that these five Takhts have a deep
and unequivocal relationship with the Sikh tradition. If Guru Gobind Singh ji
resided in Anandpur Sahib, then the power was in Sri Kesgarh Sahib ; and when
Guru ji was in Damdama Sahib, then the power was in Sri Damdama Sahib. The
truth is that the undisputed temporal and spiritual leadership lay with the
person of the Guru Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh ji never visited Sri Amritsar Sahib
at any time. When the Guruji's widow, Mata Sundri ji appointed Bhai Mani Singh
as the High Priest of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, the Mata ji accorded her full
support to him.
During his lifetime, by establishing the Sikh Panth, Guru Gobind Singh ji gave
the secular leadership of the Panth to the Five Beloved Ones (Panj Pyaras). In
the same way, the Five Takhts have been established to give the Sikhs guidance
on temporal matters. Guru ji has never invested any one Sikh (however eminent
he may be) with the power to evaluate the Sikhs of the Guru. Evaluation of the
Sikhs is always the prerogative of the Guru himself. These Five Takhts inter se
each have equal status. Whatever the temporal problem of the Sikh community may
be, the Jathedars appointed to these Five Takhts have the responsibility,
considering the betterment, uplift and prosperity of the Sikh Panth, to
investigate, and after investigating all the aspects, to render a satisfactory
conclusion. There is the established precedent, that when two Sikhs had a
dispute, Mata Sundri ji, instead of rendering the verdict on her own, appointed
an arbitrator who was charged with hearing both sides of the dispute and then to
render an appropriate verdict. Similarly, the Jathedars of the Five Takhts are
charged to meet together and hear both sides of the problem, and only then to
render their verdict as arbitrators.
In the light of this background, let us see in which way the dispute between
the sangat of British Columbia and the presently appointed Jathedar of Sri Akal
Takht Sahib is being dealt with :-
1. Hukamnama issued from Sri Akal Takht Sahib dated April 20, 1998
(Exhibit No. 1).
a. No organization is named in this Hukamnama, the sangat of which allegedly
eats the Guru ka Langar on tables, usually seated on chairs.
b. In the Hukamnama, the Jathedar writes that "the meeting of Five Singh Sahibs
took place". In India the prefix and status "Singh Sahib" is only applied to
the appointed Jathedars of the Five Takhts. It was published in the newspapers
of North America that the Jathedar Sahib of Sri Akal Takht sat with Five
Granthis and rendered the verdict. If that news was wrongly published, and if
in fact the Jathedars of the other four Takhts were participants with the
Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht, then as the incumbent Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht
Sahib, why did you feel shy in naming those high dignitaries, and recording
their names ? Also, if all those four were with you in this matter and were in
agreement with you, then why did those four Jathedars not append their
respective names ? The problem, of which you make reference, is not an ordinary
simple matter ; the sangats of India and overseas (who number more than many
hundreds of thousand) are affected by it.
c. In the Hukamnama you also write that for a long time past in India and
abroad there was …… a dispute. The question arises : in this long period of
time, why did the organization of the Five Takhts remain silent ? What did the
Jathedar Sahibs do during this period, to gather together information about the
views of the affected sangats and in what way did their sitting on chairs and
eating Guru's Langar on tables transgress the tradition of Pangat ?
d. You further state "the tradition of Pangat, established from the time of
Guru Sahib, must be continued and maintained with faith and respect in every
way. The question arises : including the Langar Hall of Sri Amritsar Sahib,
which is such a large hall in existence, where the sangat can sit in one line,
and so eat the Guru's Langar ? The size of the four walls of a room is always
limited, and inevitably the sangat has to be seated in many lines. Therefore,
one line can consist of the so called higher ups, while the other one can be
that of the lower ones. To sit in the Pangat and eat Gurus Langar is a basic
principle of the Sikh religion. "Sitting" in one line or on the ground is not
the principle ; but the object is to eliminate the practice of discrimination
between high and low. The Guru's Langar is, therefore, open for every human
being. Persons participating must be sitting in the same manner, and must eat
the same food, without any discrimination. If the same kinds of tables be
placed together, and people eat the Langar sitting facing one another, (provided
their heads be covered and they do not wear shoes), then which tradition of the
Gurus' will have been transgressed ?
e. With sitting on the ground, the feet of the people would inevitably touch
the tray containing the Langar. Will that be the respect of the Langar or its
denigration? With the coming and going of the servers, dal is spilled, and
water also is spilled. The clothes of the members of the Sangat sitting next
get spoiled. By sitting on the chairs, keeping the Langar on the tables these
wrong things do not happen.
f. The Sikh Sangat is like all other human beings. With the march of times,
they (the Sikhs) also grow and progress. This (the Sikh) community is one of
Charhdi Kala (of vibrant optimism), and instead of forcing them to just tow the
line like automatons, they should be encouraged to move towards progress. There
was a time, when people in India used to sit on the ground, put their dal in
doonays and their roti on wide leaves. Then were developed the plates and bowls
of brass; for drinking they made round and glass type brass drinking vessels.
Today, trays made of plastic or stainless steel are being used. From sitting on
the ground, people progressed to sitting on rugs, and muras and later to low
stools. Now sitting on chairs and eating their meals has become a common
tradition. Did your meeting of April 20, 1998, discuss these aspects ? If so,
then it is your religious duty to give full details to the sangat of those who
took part in the meeting, and to acquaint them of the views of all the
participating Jathedar Sahibs.
g. It appears from your Hukamnama that you do not know which Gurdwaras in the
different parts of the World use tables and chairs. If that were not so, then
your "Hukamnama" would have been specifically addressed to those organizations
alone. Naturally, before taking the action to issue a Hukamnama, you would have
asked those organizations the reason for using chairs and tables, and having so
done you would have taken steps to find out and to have carefully investigated
their respective difficulties. It is possible that by dint of your vast
experience, and by using your tremendous influence, if not eliminating their
problems entirely, you might have helped to reduce those. By not so doing, you
have done great injustice. The Panth accorded to you such a high status, that
you should be eternally grateful to the Panth, and diligently render such
satisfactory decisions that would lead towards the prosperity of the Panth. The
Sangats would thereupon feel proud of your Gurmukhta.
h. With the issue of this "Hukamnama", you have done gross injustice to the
weak and voiceless sector of the community whose members, in reaching foreign
shores, undergo great hardships, even to the extent of putting their lives in
jeopardy. By rendering kirtan and katha at Gurdwaras, they link the sangats to
Gurbani. Instead of properly dealing with those so-called guilty organizations,
you have transferred your responsibilities onto the shoulders of these weak
groups of our community. You have threatened these people, that if they would
not have the chairs and tables removed, Panthic action would be taken against
them. This threat is totally improper, and its utterance does not reflect
credit to your respectable status.
i. In Montreal, the well known city of Quebec, there were two Gurdwaras in
which the sangats sat on chairs and ate the Guru's Langar on tables. With the
passage of time, a new party took control of one of the Gurdwaras, and it then
removed the tables and chairs and started a new tradition of sitting on the
floor and eating the Langar. A few months later, a group from that Gurdwara
raided the other Gurdwara, and began forcibly to remove chairs and tables from
the dining area. The matter went to the police and these raiders then
retreated. However, as a consequence, this Gurdwara appealed to the Sri Akal
Takht Sahib and explained to that august organization their practical and
physical difficulties and requested that in these circumstances the sitting on
chairs and tables may not be considered to be a transgression of any tradition.
They sent three Registered Letters but instead of receiving a reply the Gurdwara
Sahib learned from the newspapers that a "Hukamnama" has been issued on this
subject. The Gurdwara Sahib approached the ragis and dhadis and from them
obtained a copy thereof. The question arises : after such a long silence, how
can Sri Akal Takht Sahib now have the temerity to impose this Hukamnama on the
Gurdwara Sahib ? Is it by oppressing and threatening the poor ragis and dhadis
with dire consequences ?
j. On one side, there are the mens' and womens' toilets, and on the other are
the childrens' classes. Leaving enough passage for these, there remains a space
of only 20 feet by 20 feet. Even if half of the membership of three hundred and
fifty persons may be present for Langar, it will be very difficult for them to
sit and eat the Langar within this narrow enclosure. By sitting on chairs and
eating the Langar on the tables, everyone can be catered for quite easily.
Analyzing your "Hukamnama" of April 20, 1998, it is very clear that : -
1. This "Hukamnama" is illogical and invalid ;
2. This "Hukamnama" is not addressed to any of the organizations to whom you
desire to find guilty of transgression ;
3. The issue of this "Hukamnama" is ultravires and beyond your jurisdiction qua
Jathedar Sahib of Siri Akal Takht Sahib ;
4. Before issuing the "Hukamnama" it is incumbent upon yourself to discharge
the responsibility of proving that the organizations that are using tables and
chairs, are not treating the Guru's Langar with faith and respect ;
5. The threat that you have given to the functionaries such as ragis, granthis,
dhadis and parcharaks, that if the organizations at which they render their
services do not comply with your "Hukamnama", they (they ragis etc.) will be
punished according the rules of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, is totally invalid.
6. For these foregoing reasons, you are being hereby served Notice that this
"Hukamnama" be withdrawn forthwith ; failing which, the sangat of those
organizations, whom you consider to be guilty, will take whatever actions they
deem necessary and you will be held responsible for costs and consequences.
On behalf of the affected sangats,
Montreal, June 16, 1998 PREETAM SINGH
cc: Jathedar Gurcharan Singh Tohra, President S.G.P.C. Sri Amrtisar Sahib
Singh Sahib Bhai Manjeet Singh ji, Jathedar Sri Kesgarh Sahib, Sri
Anandpur Sahib
Dr. Preetam Singh, Q.C., 456 Coronet Avenue,
Montreal, Quebec
H9W 2E7 Canada
Tel : (514) 695-0323
Fax : (514) 695-0993
thind
Local News
Cops edge toward Air India
charges
The Province
The Province
After a 13-year, multimillion-dollar international investigation,
RCMP have
taken a first step toward charging up to six B.C. suspects with
plotting to
blow up an Air India 747, killing 329 passengers and crew.
Special prosecutor Bob Wright has received a preliminary brief and
a
summary of evidence from the 20-member RCMP task force probing the
worst
case of aviation sabotage in history.
The Mounties' goal is to see the Crown lay charges of conspiracy to
commit
murder in the destruction of the jumbo jet over the Atlantic in
June 1985.
"Although a comprehensive court brief has yet to be completed, some
preliminary reports and evidence summaries have now gone forward
for review
by senior Crown counsel in Vancouver," RCMP confirmed yesterday
when
approached by The Province.
The Mounties' disclosure that they are making headway in one of the
most
complex cases in Canadian legal history came after Wright for the
first time
visited with relatives of victims of the Air India bombing.
The Province has learned that Wright travelled to several Eastern
Canadian
cities, including Toronto, along with senior Mounties to have
face-to-face
meetings with victims' families.
Wright's effort is believed to be a gesture intended to reassure
the families
that progress is being made in the case -- which could result in
multiple
charges, and in court proceedings that would likely involve more
than 800
Crown witnesses.
Wright, who is in charge of special prosecutions, is working with a
team of
prosecutors.
He will have final say on the content and timing of any charges.
RCMP spokesman Sgt. Russ Grabb said yesterday: "The Air India case
remains under active investigation by a Vancouver-based task force
of
20 full-time RCMP homicide investigators.
"No time frame has been set for the approval of charges, if any, by
Crown
counsel," Grabb said in a prepared statement approved by RCMP brass
for
public release.
"A charge approval and review process will only commence once the
comprehensive court brief has been submitted," he said.
Grabb also said investigators are still conducting inquiries in the
field and
collecting evidence.
"We are conducting a thorough and methodical investigation, and we
are
avoiding public comment on the nature of the evidence in order to
protect the
integrity of the case and any potential future prosecutions," Grabb
said.
Independent sources have said that the Mounties are zeroing in on
several
members of the Babbar Khalsa militant group and affiliated Sikh
factions.
=====================================================================
thind
Sat Sri Akaal to one and all....here is the latest on chairs
;n; tables issue in our sikh
temples.................................................................
.Major Singh Thind Vancouver .,B.C.
Last Updated: Monday 20 July
1998
TOP STORIES
Sikh youths make plea for
moderation
The Vancouver Sun
Vancouver Sun
Thousands of moderate
Sikhs gathered at the
Abbotsford fairgrounds
Sunday and pledged
unanimous support for tables
and chairs in temple dining
halls.
The rally, which was to
support moderate candidates
in the upcoming
court-ordered Abbotsford
temple elections, was
attended by temple leaders
from across B.C. and by
between 3,500 and 4,000
local Sikhs, according to
estimates by Abbotsford
police.
Several resolutions were
passed with standing ovations from those in
attendance, including one
supporting six Lower Mainland Sikh leaders who
have been summoned before
Amritsar, India-based high priest Ranjit Singh
because they have not
supported Singh's May 29 edict to remove furniture
and have all temple meals
shared while seated on the floor.
Jasdeep Singh Bhattal, 21,
addressed the crowd as a younger Sikh
supporting tables and chairs.
"I urge all of us to stand
together and not break from the traditions of our
forefathers," Bhattal said.
"We are the future so we should have a say in what
goes on in the temples."
Tarlok Singh Gidda said for
almost 100 years, Sikhs in B.C. have worked hard
to build their temples and
have always used tables and chairs.
"I feel like these people have
taken over our temples," he said of
fundamentalist supporters who
removed furniture from the Abbotsford temple
early on June 1 without
permission from the acting president.
Preet Sandhu, who attended the
rally on behalf of the Prince George temple
executive, said B.C. temples
are united against "extremists" who want
furniture removed.
"Extremism doesn't exist in
this country. They can't win. They are trying to
beat the democratic process,"
Sandhu said.
Meanwhile, a short distance
away, a special gathering police estimated was
attended by between 800 and
1,000 fundamentalist Sikhs was held at the
Abbotsford temple, despite
contentions from the moderates that the meeting
violated a court order that
said the acting executive has no authority.
Many of the speeches focused
on the need to follow the edict, Vancouver
resident Kuldip Singh Brar
said.
"Speakers are saying it should
be this way without tables and chairs," said
Brar.
Former presidents of
Vancouver's Ross Street temple, Hardial Singh Johal
and Daljit Singh Sandhu, were
both in attendance, as was the current Ross
president, Sarjit Singh Gill.
Johal said he attended the
temple for "religious" reasons.
"People came here because they
believe in Sikhism," Johal said. "I show the
support to the Sikh maryada
[code of conduct] always and to any order that
comes from Sri Akal Takhat
Sahib."
While normally donations made
at the temple go to the registered Abbotsford
Khalsa Diwan Society, receipts
were being issued Sunday in the name of the
Gurmat Parcharak Society of
B.C., an unregistered society that is supporting
several former temple priests
who left their positions over the
tables-and-chairs issue.
Moderate temple presidential
candidate Mohinder Singh Gill said it is against
the temple's constitution to
allow unrelated parties to collect money there.
And he said his side will
likely go back to its lawyer today because of the
fund-raising that was done.
Gill said the moderates'
lawyer sent a letter to the fundamentalists last week,
saying the meeting scheduled
for the temple violated a B.C. Supreme Court
ruling because no
extraordinary functions are to be held at the temple before
the election is held in the
coming weeks.
Gurpreet Singh Jouhal, a
Surrey resident who was speaking to the media on
behalf of Sunday's temple
gathering, said nothing was done to violate the
court order, despite speeches
about tables and chairs.
"The tables-and-chairs issue
is still hot within the community," Jouhal said. "It
is a religious issue."
Nineteen-year-old Harwinder
Singh Parmar, of Vancouver, said he made the
trip to the Abbotsford temple
"because everyone should follow the code of
conduct from the Akal Takhat."
Parmar, who was wearing a Nike
jacket emblazoned with a logo for the Sikh
terrorist group Babbar Khalsa,
said Sikhs in Canada should fall in line with
Sikhs around the world. He
also admitted he is a Babbar Khalsa supporter.
=======================================================================
thind
Last Updated: Thursday 23 July 1998
TOP STORIES
Crown to join Air India case
The Vancouver Sun
Vancouver Sun
Five senior Crown counsel will join special
prosecutor Bob Wright full-time on
Sept. 1 to start work on the police file in the
1985 Air India bombing that killed
329, The Vancouver Sun has learned.
The September date is an indication that police
are close to wrapping up their
file and giving their report to Crown counsel. As
of that date, the Crown will
also have a full-time media officer assigned to
the Air India case.
Sources confirmed that members of the team are
winding up their other cases
so they can devote all their energy to the massive
file on Canada's worst
mass murder.
Wright has been working on Air India for several
weeks, going over preliminary
material that investigators have given him.
The five Crown counsel, who have not been
identified publicly, are well-known
senior Crown prosecutors, a source said. "You are
certainly going to
recognize the names."
Police confirmed this week for the first time that
some material on the case is
in the hands of Crown counsel.
"Although a comprehensive court brief has yet to
be completed, some
preliminary reports and evidence summaries have
now gone forward for review
by senior Crown counsel in Vancouver," RCMP
Sergeant Russ Grabb said in
a prepared statement.
"No time frame has been set for the completion of
the comprehensive court
brief."
Technically, Crown counsel is not officially
involved in a case until police finish
the comprehensive court brief.
Contacted Wednesday, Wright said he couldn't
comment beyond confirming
he is in the possession of some material.
But for the first time, he accompanied police
recently on their routine trip back
east to update victims' families on what is
happening with the case.
Police believe a core group of six to eight Sikh
separatists, all living in B.C.,
planned to blow up two Air India jets on June 23,
1985, as part of a terrorist
campaign against the government of India to aid
them in establishing an
independent Sikh homeland they wanted to call
Khalistan.
On June 22, two bomb-laden suitcases were checked
in for flights destined to
connect with two separate Air India flights. The
first bomb exploded at Tokyo's
Narita airport, killing two baggage handlers who
were unloading a Canadian
Pacific flight from Vancouver. Less than an hour
later, Flight 182 exploded in
mid-air.
Inderjit Singh Reyat, a former Duncan electrician,
is serving 10 years for
manslaughter in the Narita deaths.
One-time Burnaby resident Talwinder Singh Parmar
was a key Air India
suspect and founder of the Sikh terrorist group
Babbar Khalsa. He was killed
in India in 1992.
A total of 20 officers have worked on the Air
India Task Force since 1995,
when the RCMP announced a $1-million reward and
hundreds of new tips
starting coming in.
Grabb said this week the case remains "under
active investigation" despite
the developments.
"The RCMP share the concerns with the community
about the Air India case,"
he said. "We are conducting a thorough and
comprehensive investigation."
thind
Last Updated: Saturday 25 July 1998
TOP STORIES
Sikh leaders ignore summons
The Vancouver Sun
Vancouver Sun
Moderate Sikh leaders vowed Friday to continue serving
their community if, as
expected, they are excommunicated today by their religion's
high priest.
They said they anticipated the action because they refused
to obey a
summons to appear today before the priest, Ranjit Singh, at
Sikhism's
headquarters, the Akal Takhat, in India.
And even before they were supposed to appear, Singh was
describing two of
the six -- Guru Nanak temple president Balwant Singh Gill
and Indo-Canadian
Times publisher Tara Singh Hayer, as tankhayia, which means
excommunicated.
The summons to India was ordered because the six support
the use of tables
and chairs in Sikh temples, despite an earlier edict by
Singh that they should
be removed.
The comments about Gill and Hayer appear on an Internet
news service
sponsored by the militant International Sikh Youth
Federation.
Gill said Friday he expects Surrey fundamentalists will
have a fax from India in
their hands first thing Saturday morning stating the six
have been
excommunicated.
"They will try to make a fuss of it. They will try to make
us resign. We know
their strategy," he said. "But we are not worrying about it
because the
majority support us."
He said he faxed Singh a copy of a resolution supporting
the six that was
passed unanimously by 4,500 moderates gathered in
Abbotsford last
weekend.
The six claim they are the victims of a transparent attempt
by fundamentalist
opponents to regain control of Lower Mainland Sikh temples.
Gill said it is hard for B.C. moderates to take Singh's
summons seriously
when just four temple leaders out of dozens in B.C. and
hundreds around the
world who are maintaining tables and chairs have been
summoned to India.
"Why is he focusing on these four guys? He should call
everybody around the
world to appear. It proves they are just focusing on two
temples here," Gill
said, of his temple and Vancouver's Ross Street, the
largest in B.C.
At least three of the six on Ranjit Singh's B.C. list have
had threats made
against them in recent weeks.
Tensions are so high that when someone saw a suspicious box
outside
Hayer's Surrey office Friday, police were called and it was
treated as a
possible bomb. But after the bomb squad was called in from
Vancouver and a
city block evacuated for two hours, it was determined the
box contained only
garbage.
Both Hayer and Gill were named by police sources as being
the target of
death threats earlier this month that led to the
cancelation of a religious
parade.
Hayer, who is in a wheelchair after a 1988 assassination
attempt by a Sikh
separatist, said Friday he is not associated with any
temple and doesn't know
why Singh even called upon him to appear before him.
"We are all Canadian citizens. How can a person order us to
go there?" he
said.
Hayer predicted the issue will be hot here until a temple
election in Abbotsford
next month.
thind
> Thind
>
> Last Updated: Saturday 25 July 1998
> TOP STORIES
>
>
>
> The Vancouver Sun
>
> Vancouver Sun
> of convicted
> bomb-maker Inderjit Singh Reyat for welfare fraud after
> she received cheques
> and other assistance from Surrey's Khalsa school while on
> social assistance.
>
> According to an application for a search warrant filed in
> B.C. provincial court,
> Satnam Kaur Reyat got regular cheques from the Satnam
> Trust, which funds
> Khalsa school, and from the school's temple over a
> five-year period.
>
> The application also states that the money was funnelled
> through the Khalsa
> Credit Union. Millionaire businessman Ripudaman Singh
> Malik is president of
> the Satnam Education Society, which runs Khalsa school,
> the Satnam Trust
> and the credit union. Malik was on vacation and
> unavailable to comment
> Friday.
>
> The application for a search warrant was filed by
> ministry investigator Ken
> Felker, who states that he obtained information about the
> alleged welfare fraud
> from a former employee and a former director of the
> Satnam Education
> Society. A ministry source confirmed the investigation to
> a Vancouver Sun
> reporter Friday.
>
> Khalsa Credit Union manager Aniljit Singh, who was
> interviewed by ministry
> investigators about the cheques that were deposited for
> Reyat's family, hung
> up on a Sun reporter Friday.
>
> Singh is also a director of the education society.
>
> The ministry document said Reyat, who has been getting
> welfare since 1991
> when her husband was convicted of building a bomb in 1985
> that killed two
> baggage handlers at Tokyo airport, received $1,100 per
> month from the
> school. Until 1996, the money came from the charitable
> Satnam Trust, and
> after that it came from donations to the temple that
> operates out of the
> school.
>
> The documents state Malik also supported the Reyat family
> with money from
> his import-export company, Papillon.
>
> The ministry investigation is in addition to an on-going
> RCMP commercial
> crime investigation into the school and the two societies
> based on allegations
> that more than $10,000 was misappropriated. Money going
> to the Reyat
> family is also part of the RCMP probe.
>
> In a series of Sun stories earlier this year, it was
> reported that the Satnam
> Education Society. A ministry source confirmed the
> investigation to a
> Vancouver Sun reporter Friday.
>
> Khalsa Credit Union manager Aniljit Singh, interviewed by
> ministry
> investigators about the cheques that were deposited for
> Reyat's family, hung
> up on a Sun reporter Friday. Singh is also a director of
> the education society.
>
> The ministry document said Reyat, who has been getting
> welfare since 1991
> when her husband was convicted of building a bomb in 1985
> that killed two
> baggage handlers at Tokyo airport, received $1,100 per
> month from the
> school. Until 1996, the money came from the charitable
> Satnam Trust, and
> after that it came from donations to the temple that
> operates out of the
> school.
>
> The documents state Malik also supported the Reyat family
> with money from
> his import-export company, Papillon.
>
> The probe is in addition to an RCMP commercial crime
> investigation into the
> school and the two societies based on allegations that
> more than $10,000
> was misappropriated. Money going to the Reyat family is
> also part of the
> RCMP probe.
>
> In a series of Sun stories earlier this year, it was
> reported the Satnam
> Education Society of B.C. had paid $1,200 for a fence
> around Satnam Kaur
> Reyat's home because she feared the Air India task force
> would attempt to
> enter the house.
>
> Inderjit Singh Reyat is considered a key suspect in the
> 1985 Air India
> bombing, in which 329 were killed.
>
>
>
Mo
unless they give up the one god nonsense theory and adopt the true
mulitple god theory ..
On Sun, 26 Jul 1998 02:04:34 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
Last Updated: Saturday 25 July 1998
TOP
STORIES
Sikh leaders ignore summons
The Vancouver Sun
Vancouver Sun
Moderate Sikh leaders vowed Friday to
continue serving
their community if, as
expected, they are excommunicated
today by their religion's
high priest.
They said they anticipated the action
because they refused
to obey a
summons to appear today before the
priest, Ranjit Singh, at
Sikhism's
headquarters, the Akal Takhat, in
India.
And even before they were supposed to
appear, Singh was
describing two of
the six -- Guru Nanak temple president
Balwant Singh Gill
and Indo-Canadian
Times publisher Tara Singh Hayer, as
tankhayia, which means
excommunicated.
The summons to India was ordered
because the six support
the use of tables
and chairs in Sikh temples, despite an
earlier edict by
Singh that they should
be removed.
The comments about Gill and Hayer
appear on an Internet
news service
sponsored by the militant
International Sikh Youth
Surinder Dhillon
People have not even been able to prove the existance of ONE GOD, and
here you are asking people to believe there are many? Surely your
vested interest is to prove there is one, so you can at least claim
there COULD be more!
Surinder.
Mo
to believe in one you might as well believe in many -some of them good
looking females..
Ch. Rajinder NIJJHAR
by asking him to tell why Harmandir Sahib is built in the middle of a water
tank and not outside?
Most of such High Priests even do not know their own tribal fathers never
mind our Spiritual Father Akaal Purakh.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jat of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/index.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://freespace.virgin.net/rajinder.nijjhar/index.htm
http://freespace.virgin.net/rajinder.nijjhar/gnostic/home.htm
thind wrote in message <35BAF11B...@intergate.bc.ca>...
>
>
>Last Updated: Saturday 25 July 1998
> TOP STORIES
>
>
> Sikh leaders ignore summons
>
> The Vancouver Sun
>
> Vancouver Sun
> Moderate Sikh leaders vowed Friday to continue serving
>their community if, as
> expected, they are excommunicated today by their religion's
>high priest.
>
> They said they anticipated the action because they refused
>to obey a
> summons to appear today before the priest, Ranjit Singh, at
>Sikhism's
> headquarters, the Akal Takhat, in India.
>
> And even before they were supposed to appear, Singh was
>describing two of
> the six -- Guru Nanak temple president Balwant Singh Gill
>and Indo-Canadian
> Times publisher Tara Singh Hayer, as tankhayia, which means
>
> excommunicated.
>
> The summons to India was ordered because the six support
>the use of tables
> and chairs in Sikh temples, despite an earlier edict by
>Singh that they should
> be removed.
>
> The comments about Gill and Hayer appear on an Internet
>news service
> sponsored by the militant International Sikh Youth
thind
the chairs vs. carpet in sikh gurudwaras' langar issue as some people are trying to force
their own wishes in the name of Maryada for their selfish gains.........M.S.THIND
===========================================================
Last Updated: Monday 27 July 1998
Local
News
Two arrested at temple
The Province
The Province
Both sides in the potentially deadly
dispute in the Sikh community over
the issue of excommunication of
six moderates and tables and
chairs in kitchen halls are digging in
their heels.
And traditionalists have vowed to
be at the Vancouver temple every
week staging sit-ins and disrupting
any attempt by excommunicated
Sikh leaders to take the podium or
lead religious services.
Police yesterday defused a
potentially violent confrontation at
the temple by ousting everyone
after the morning prayers. A crowd
of traditionalists sat on the floor of
the temple and shouted slogans to
drown out moderate leaders. They
refused to leave until the
moderates left.
The confrontation moved
downstairs to the kitchen area and at least
two people were arrested as tempers frayed.
Militants caused the problem this time again
by dumping furniture aside to make room to sit on
the floor to eat their meal.
It took five police officers to control one
angry Sikh who picked up a chair to use as a
weapon against militants who were busy
moving tables and chairs out of the way.
Police said the two people arrested will
likely face charges of disturbing the peace.
Over the weekend, Sikh head priest Ranjit
Singh excommunicated a total of six moderates
who have defied or criticized the edict to
remove table and chairs from temple kitchens.
One of them, Ross Street temple
vice-president Jarnail Bhandal, was the main target of
hecklers as he tried to speak at the podium.
A female member of the temple's executive
snatched the microphone from his hand,
starting a shoving match between fundamentalists
and moderates.
Bhandal vowed yesterday to continue in his
post. He said a letter from temple president Sarjit
Singh Gill telling him he is no longer on
the executive or a member of the society that runs the
temple is invalid.
"He has no right to send me that letter.
Only the executive can decide that," said Bhandal,
who has been threatened and has had eggs
hurled at his house.
Daljit Sandhu, a former president of the
temple, said he and several others decided to sit and
chant slogans because they do not think
Bhandal should be allowed anywhere near the
temple since he has been excommunicated.
"We will be there every week," said Sandhu,
part of a group of people, including former
temple president Hardial Singh Johal, who
are behind the push for obedience to the
tables-and-chairs edict.
Another prominent figure, Vancouver
millionaire and fundamentalist prayer chanter
Ripudaman Singh Malik, was not at the temple
yesterday. Community members believe he is a
key figure in behind-the-scenes work to
enforce the edict.
Sandhu said his men have specific
instructions not to cause trouble or try to remove tables
and chairs forcibly.
================================================================
thind
Last Updated: Wednesday 29 July 1998
TOP STORIES
Violence feared at Sikh temple
The Vancouver Sun
Vancouver Sun
Moderates at Vancouver's Ross Street temple say they fear
violence
this weekend after the temple's striking high priest urged people
in a
Punjabi radio broadcast to go to the temple on Sunday.
Jagdish Singh, who has not performed his duties at the temple for
about two months, issued the call while being interviewed Monday
on
radio station Apna Sangeet.
Singh said Tuesday the intent of his comments was simply to
encourage more people to go to the temple and pray.
But Ross Street executive member Rajinder Singh Bhela said
moderates believe the call was linked to the continuing
controversy
over whether dining rooms in Sikh temples should have tables and
chairs.
He said Singh's comments are akin to inviting a violent
confrontation
at the temple, where just last Sunday, police headed off a near
riot in
the temple dining hall when a few fundamentalists pushed some
furniture aside.
"Obviously, when those people come on Sunday, it won't be to
pray, it
will be to remove tables and chairs," he said
Singh said he will not go to the temple himself, since he has
been
boycotting it because the majority on the executive support
keeping
seating in the langar or dining hall.
Surrey resident Bhopinder Singh Pannu, who heard the broadcast,
said he was alarmed by Singh's comments.
"This is a very, very serious matter," he said.
The tables and chairs issue erupted 18 months ago when
fundamentalists who had lost control of Surrey's Guru Nanak
temple
took all the furniture out of the building, stating it was better
for Sikhs
to share their common meal seated on the floor.
A month later, when moderates tried to return the tables,
fundamentalists attacked them and a riot broke out. Ten people go
to
court on various charges in that case next month.
Then, last April, Sikh high priest Ranjit Singh issued an edict
or
hukamnama from the Akal Takhat, Sikhism's supreme authority in
Amritsar, supporting the fundamentalist position and ordering the
removal of furniture by May 29.
But 26 B.C. societies and temples have kept the tables because
they
say the edict is politically-motivated to help fundamentalists
regain
control of lucrative temples.
On Tuesday, the moderate majority at Ross Street, B.C.'s largest
temple with 28,000 members, delivered a lawyer's letter to
president
Sarjit Singh Gill informing him of a vote the night before to
remove all
his powers. The letter requested Gill to turn over his keys and
other
property of the temple's Khalsa Diwan Society by July 30.
But Gill claims the vote was not legal because he adjourned the
meeting before he and five others walked out.
He said he intends "to take legal advice to see what we can do."
Ross Street past-president Hardial Singh Johal, who wants the
tables
removed, said only the high priest has the authority to resolve
the
current dispute, even though the temple society is constituted
under
the Societies Act.
"The Societies Act is nothing," he said. "The religious law, it
is
separate. You believe in one faith, you follow that faith -- that
is the
end of the story."
He said that there won't be any problem with the Khalsa Diwan
Society being able to function despite the polarization.
Meanwhile, Abbotsford moderates and fundamentalists will be back
in
New Westminster Supreme Court Friday, lawyer Bob Wickett, acting
for the moderates, said Tuesday.
Wickett said the primary reason for the court date is that his
clients
are challenging the "caretaker" executive put into place by a
Supreme
Court order last month, pending an election.
The moderates claim eight of the 13 members on that temporary
executive should be removed because they held a special meeting
at
the temple two weeks ago supporting their position that tables
and
chairs should not be allowed in. Wickett said that vote violated
the
terms of the earlier court order.
Both sides will also say they want an extension of the July 31
deadline
by which the election was to have been held.
thind
The image of Sikhs is being damaged immensly, in other communities due to our
in-fighting over an issue of no- issue. Read the following and dicide for yourselves, if we want
to live peacefully among other Canadian citizens or live like wild-animals.We have to adopt to
the countries' traditions, where ever we immigrate to. We have to prove to the world that we are
a civilized bunch from PUNJAB.We have to prove it , that we are peaceful people and condone
Voilence. Our Guru Sahibans did not preach hate/voilence towards anyone. Our Gurus were the
"Messengers of Love". The Jathedar of akaal Takhat has no authority outside of Punjab, Haryana
and Himachal Pardesh.Also he is only the servent/speaker of sikhs and has no authority to issue
any kind of edicts on his own. Our message to him is , please let everyone live in peace, where
ever one resides. More later on...
Yours Truly....Major Singh Thind
===============================================================
Mo
trivial issues -whether there should be chairs and tables in temples.
Of course the idea is that when many hefty Sardarjis sit on the floor
, they wont be able to get up again !
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:31:44 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
instructions not to cause trouble or try to remove tables
and chairs forcibly.
================================================================
S Singh
clean, but sadly false... completely illogical , the christians call their
other gods angels when they are actually god , just like in hinduism , there
are the high gods and the lower gods.. i can't understand why people don't
understand this..These people are also gods , it's just that the god that
spoke to whoever brags that he is the one and only god and of course stupid
men believe him and then write the bible which is just a fabrication or a
bad translation of summerian tablets...(OT at least).
Mo <11305...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
<360ce31e....@news.clara.net>...
ju...@hotmail.com
thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> Sat Sri Akaal, my friends...
> The image of Sikhs is being damaged immensly, in other
communities due to our
> in-fighting over an issue of no- issue. Read the following and dicide for
yourselves, if we want
> to live peacefully among other Canadian citizens or live like wild-animals.We
have to adopt to
> the countries' traditions, where ever we immigrate to. We have to prove to the
world that we are
> a civilized bunch from PUNJAB.We have to prove it , that we are peaceful
people and condone
> Voilence. Our Guru Sahibans did not preach hate/voilence towards anyone. Our
Gurus were the
> "Messengers of Love". The Jathedar of akaal Takhat has no authority outside of
Punjab, Haryana
> and Himachal Pardesh.Also he is only the servent/speaker of sikhs and has no
authority to issue
> any kind of edicts on his own. Our message to him is , please let everyone
live in peace, where
> ever one resides. More later on...
> Yours Truly....Major Singh Thind
>
Major Sahib, your opinions are correct, but what do you think...
Is there really any culture in Punjab except Agriculture?!....
As for us sikhs, we have done to ourselves in the last 15 years what no one
has been able to do in the last 150 years...we join the rest of the "hindu-
stanis" in becoming a servile, morally corrupt, ill-disciplined and un-united
group of money grubbing "use-to-be"s...tragic
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Harinder Kaur
feel that having cushions under their oppositional buttocks is more
important than religion.Learn a little humility!It will go far.If you
don't like the Hukkumnama obey it anyway instead of worshiping your
pride and your butt!Give me a break!If you want to forsake your
religion do it over an issue of substance not this!!Do ypu think that
Sikhs in THe USA and India are less civilized because they sit on the
floor for langar?Stop worshipping your rear end !!!!
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:45:52 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
HarinderKaur
>wrote:
>
>>Sat Sri Akaal, my friends...
>> The image of Sikhs is being damaged immensly, in other communities due to our
>>in-fighting over an issue of no- issue. Read the following and dicide for yourselves, if we want
>>to live peacefully among other Canadian citizens or live like wild-animals.We have to adopt to
>>the countries' traditions, where ever we immigrate to. We have to prove to the world that we are
>>a civilized bunch from PUNJAB.We have to prove it , that we are peaceful people and condone
>>Voilence. Our Guru Sahibans did not preach hate/voilence towards anyone. Our Gurus were the
>>"Messengers of Love". The Jathedar of akaal Takhat has no authority outside of Punjab, Haryana
>>and Himachal Pardesh.Also he is only the servent/speaker of sikhs and has no authority to issue
>>any kind of edicts on his own. Our message to him is , please let everyone live in peace, where
>>ever one resides. More later on...
>> Yours Truly....Major Singh Thind
>>
When you were an army officer did you say that your commander
had no authority?If you think that the Jathedar of akaal Takhat has no
authority then maybe you should be excommunicated also!
This is the reason that people tell Sardar jokes and the
reason that Sikhs are thought of as a stupid oppositional lot.It is
selfishness plainly and simply.
If you want to live in peace then behave peacefully and do
your duty.Don't lalk about preaching love and incite violence
yourself.It takes more than one to fight and you are providing the
stimulus.The"fundamentalists" are right about this issue.
Overlord
> As for us sikhs, we have done to ourselves in the last 15 years what no one
> has been able to do in the last 150 years...we join the rest of the "hindu-
> stanis" in becoming a servile, morally corrupt, ill-disciplined and un-united
> group of money grubbing "use-to-be"s...tragic
Yea right. By nature, terrorists like you are wholesome,
morally righteous, not corrupt, hightly diciplined and
united. Thats why khalistanis and other sikhs and punjabis
are sword fighting in gurdwaras over the right to have
tables and chairs in there.
When will you get that morally righteous thumb of your
out of your rear?
HarinderKaur
to make anyone cancel the message to save their newsreader and their
time.Anyway this just comes out as numbers and letters.Can you repost
your response in words-preferably less than300?
On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:45:52 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
>Sat Sri Akaal, my friends...
Sons of Punjab
and chairs out of the Gurudwara langar Halls are COWARDS. Learn to
take a stand when u know u are standing by the Truthful rightous issue.
ITs not a matter of JUST tables and chairs to be removed , its a matter
of whether we are prepared to stand up to the Factions who are trying to
mislead and misuse the sikh community to benefit themselves. Its Time to
take a STAND. IF you can't SHUT UP and just eat your langar and go home
as u always do. Disrespect is in your mind not Ours. As A TRUE SIKH , u
must take a stand.Sikh religion is in grave danger from these "Phony
Fundamentalists" take a stand- IT must start somewhere- IF you can't
YOUR Kids will be ashamed of you- save their Future - Thats the Least
you can do. Sikhs we MUST unite to fight the EVIL(Fundamentalists)- YOU
MUST WORK TOWARDS A HEALTHY FUTURE FOR OUR NEXT GENERATION IN THESE
OVERSEAS COUNTRIES- FUTURE BELONGS TO YOU- IF YOU MAKE A EFFORT TO MOVE
AHEAD NOT "BACKWARDS"
SIKH AND PROUD OF IT
ITS NOT JUST ABOUT TABLES AND CHAIRS
SONS OF PUNJAB
thind wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
.
Sons of Punjab
Sons of Punjab
thind
Sat Sri Akal.
I read your response to my couple of postings. Well, I do not know ,where are you
living? If you are living on this planet and have any knowledge of the history of Sikhism, the history
of Sikhs living abroad and the present day circumstances , your response was going to be different than
the one you have posted here. Yes, you are right that I should be ex-communicated according to your
books, its not you , who have given me Sikhi. You have no more or no less rights to be a sikh. Sikhi is
inside of you , not outside of oneself. And, there are at least over 90% sikhs living abroad, who are
fed up with these Fake sikhs' daily misdeeds. And why not ex-communicate millions of other Sehjdhari
Sikhs. Our concern is to restore the damage done to our religion and keep our future generations going
to our places of worship, as thousands upon thousands kids are flocking to western religions. In
Vancouver (area) alone there are at least a dozen or so western religious places catering to
Punjabi/Indian population. Think of our forefathers who brought sikhism in these far flung lands and
kept it alive here, despite of hardships. And if these people want to have something different, well,
they are free to build their own temples. And the word Humility is not in their vocabulary at all.
Pangat is not sitting on floor, it has to be in our minds and souls to stop discriminating against
anyone. Its a matter of greed/ money/ egoism. We can not achieve humolity unless we get rid of Kaam,
Krodh, Lobh , Moah and HUNKAR.....They should build their own and whatever they want. I hope this is
enough for now...More later on... Major Songh Thind Vancouver Canada
Ch. Rajinder NIJJHAR
there is One God Whose names are different according to qualities. For
example, God is merciful, then His name is Al-Raheem.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jat of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/index.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/sikhism.htm
<snip>
Harinder Kaur
In response to your question Major sahib I have lived in the
United States most of my life.In India and throughout the USA I have
never heard of sikhs using chairs and tables for langar in my life
until the recent controversy ,even my hindu friends sit on the floor
for dinners they refer to as prasad and I have never heard of them
using chairs and tables.
Langar is part of worship, not a social encounter ,and I
personally feel that chairs and tables are offensive in that
setting.Sitting on the floor we can remenber that we are all equal and
leave our false pride and concern with status aside to worship.
On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:11:58 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
Perpindervir Singh
Distribution:
thind (sing...@intergate.bc.ca) wrote:
: The Jathedar of akaal Takhat has no authority outside of Punjab, Haryana
: and Himachal Pardesh.
And this is so becuase you say it is? The Akal Takhat has authority
on all Sikh issues wether the Sikhs be living in India, Europe, Canada, Mars,
Jupiter etc. It matters not the locale of the Sikh but wether the individual
is a Sikh or not. If the individual claims he/she is a Sikh, then by virtue
of that claim he/she falls under the authority of the Akal Takhat and any
issued edicts.
Also he is only the servent/speaker of sikhs and has no
authority to issue: any kind of edicts on his own.
The jathedar of the Akal Takhat is not the servant of Sikhs.
He is the servant of Sikhi. He, when in accordance with the jathedars
of the other Takhats, has full authority to issue edicts. Again, he is
not subject to the whims and fancies of Sikhs but is subject to Sikhi.
Our message to him is , please let everyone live in peace, where
: ever one resides. More later on...
: Yours Truly....Major Singh Thind
My message to you is accept the edict because, as a Sikh, the Akal
Takhat is Sikhi's supreme temporal authority and you have said nothing to
counter this point. If you are not a Sikh, do as you wish. And of course,
live in peace wherever you reside.
Perpinder Singh Patrola
Raj Gore
Major Thind you have my vote on this issue (I currently reside in
London) I have disabled sikh friends who are totally against this
idea for obvious reasons and I'm sure many of the elderly and infirm
would feel uncomfortable for these seating positions. There are many
Gurudwaras in the UK whereby people STAND at the tables and eat, is
this also against the edict?
A progressive Sikh and proud of it.
Raj Singh Gore
On Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:11:58 -0700, thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
wrote:
>Hello Harinder ji,
Sons of Punjab
>
> > In response to your question Major sahib I have lived in the
> United States most of my life.In India and throughout the USA I have
ARE U SURE YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING ON THE RIGHT "PLANET" IF U HAD NEVER
HEARD OF TABLES AND CHAIRS IN LANGAR HALL- YOU SHOULD READ THE HISTORY
OF "JAT" PUNJABIS IN CALIFORNIA - IN LATE 19 CENTURY FOR STARTERS- SIKHI
IS NOT JUST ABOUT LANGARS AND CHAIRS- WHETHER YOU EAT LANGAR ON THE
FLOOR OR NOT - ITS ABOUT CREATING EQUAL OPPORTUNITES FOR EVERY SIKH WHO
IS A SIKH- PEOPLE WHO ARE SO FRESH OFF THE BOAT WHO HAVE BEEN POORELY
EDUCATED FROM THE THE INSTITUTIONS IN PUNJAB ARE BRINGING THAT
ILLETERACY, TO THESE OVERSEAS COUNTRIES- THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO SKILLS-
WORKING IN BERRY FARMS - NO CONTACT WITH THE "OUTSIDE" WORLD - THEY
DON'T WATCH NEWS- ONLY PLACE THAT MAKE THEM FEEL "COMFORTABLE" IS
GURUDWARA- PLACE WHERE THEY CAN CLAIM SOMETHING AS ONE OF THEM- THESE
PEOPLE ARE SPLIT IN BETWEEN - NEITHER HERE NOR THERE- THEY HAVE TO
DEFEND THE ONLY SOURCE IF "COMFORT ZONE" THERE IS- BEACUSE THEY HAVE
BEEN POORLY EDUCATED- MOST OF THEM JAT FARMER BOYZ WHO DIDN'T PASS EVEN
SCHOOL CERTIFICATE- SOME OF THEM CAN'T EVEN SPELL THEIR NAMES IN
ENGLISH- HAVE NOTHING TO DO IN PUNJAB- THEY CAN'T GET INTO TERITIARY
INSTITUTIONS BEACUSE INSTITUTIONS ARE FAILING THEM - LAST RESORT- 'SEND
HIM OVERSEAS' - NOW WHEN THAT ' UNTAMED' PERSON MOVES OVERSEAS- THEY
HAVE A VERY HARD TIME JUST TRYING TO ADJUST INTO THE COUNTRY- CULTURE
SHOCK IS JUST TOO GREAT FOR THEM - AS THEY HAVE NEVER WORKED HONESTLY
BACK IN PUNJAB - AS THEY HAVE A"BROTHER" OVERSEAS WHO IS SENDING THEM
THE MONEY - THEY HAD A "GREAT" EASY LIFE- THESE PEOPLE WHEN MOVE TO
OVERSEAS- THEY BRING THE SAME ETHOS- THEY RESORT TO MAKING THE MONEY
EASIER WAY IF THEY CAN!!! EASIEST PLACE AND MOST FAMILIAR PLACE IS - YOU
GUESSEDIT GURUDWARA- ONLY QUALIFICATION YOU NEED TO "EARN" IN THIS
INSTITUTION IS TO BECOME A FAKE "AMRITDARI"- THINK ABOUT IT FOR A
MINUTE- REALLY AT THE END OF THE DAY - SIKHI AND JATS DON'T GO HAND IN
HAND- JATS HAVE BEEN HARD WORKING FOLKS- WE BELIEVE IN GETTING CLOSER
TO GOD BY WORKING HARRD- NOW A JAT BECOMING A AMRITDARI!!!!! WITH ALLL
DUE RESPECT - DOESN;T HAPPEN WITHOUT A "REASON"- NOW THESE FAKE
UNSKILLED - RAW - AMRITDARIS- CAN ONLY EARN IF THEY CAN SHOW OTHERS WHO
ACTUALLY MADE THESE GURUDWARAS THROUGH HARD WORK AND HAVE "EVOLVED" WITH
TIME- THESE NATIVES HAVE ADOPTED THE WAYS OF THE COUNTRY THEY HAVE
DECIDED TO CALL HOME- THEY HAVE INTEREST IN WHAT IS GOING ON THE COUNTRY
THEY ARE LIVING IN- AS A NATURAL EVOLUTION - THEIR LIFESTYLES HAVE
CHANGED ACOORDINGLY- THESE NATIVE JATS NOW ENJOY GOING TO THE
GURUDWARA, AS WELL AS WATCHING A FOOTBALL GAME OR GOING TO THE MOVIES
AND HAVING FEW BEERS TOGETHER- NOW THESE FAKE AMRITDARIS KNOW THAT ONLY
WAY THEY CAN "MILK" THESE GURUDWARAS IS BY TELLING THESE GENUINE SIKHS
THAT THEY HAVE MOVED "AWAY" FROM THE TEACHINGS OF SIKHISM- JATS HAVE
NEVER BEEN 'THAT' CLOSE TO SIKHISM- NOW THESE UNEDUCATED UNSKILLED -
FAILURES FROM PUNJAB - WHO HAVE BEEN SENT TO MAKE MONEY AND SEND IT BACK
TO PUNJAB HAVE ONLY ONE WAY TO MAKE QUICK BUCK - GURUDWARAS- THEY START
TO TELL THE GENUINE JATS THAT THEY ARE NOT THE "TRUE" SIKHS- THEY ARE
NOT PRACTISING SIKHI PROPERLY- THEY ARE NOT CLOSER TO WAHEGURU!!!!!!- SO
THEY SHOULD RUN THE INSTITUTIONS AS THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO BE A 'TRUE'
SIKHS- ONCE THEY GET HOLD OF THE GURUDWARS- THEY MILK EVERY PENNY THAT
IS BEING GIVEN BY A GENUINE SIKHS- THEY GIVE NO ACCOUNTS - GET MONEY
FROM GENUINE SIKHS AND REALLY TELL THESE GENUINE SIKHS THAT THIS IS THE
WAY TO DO IT- NOW THESE GENUINE SIKHS AROUND THE WORLD HAD ENOUGH WITH
THESE "TRUE SIKHS" - THEY ARE FIGHTING BACK - BECAUSE THESE GENUINE
SIKHS HAVE EDUCATED THEMSELVES- BETTERED THEMSLEVES AND HAVE MADE EFFORT
TO INTEGRATE THEMSELVES INTO THE CULTURE THEY ARE 'LIVING' IN - THEY
HAVE LEARNT TO KNOW 'WHAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE' AND THATS WHAT YOU ARE
SEEING AROUND THE WORLD- THESE JAT SIKHS HAVE DECIDED TO CLAIM BACK
WHAT IS RIGHTLY THEIRS- AND NOW THAT SAME FAKE UNSKILLED, UNEDUCATED JAT
BOY FROM VILLAGE WHO HAD BEEN FAILED BY THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IN PUNJAB
HAS TO LOOK FOR A "REAL" JOB TO MAKE A LIVING- NOW THAT REALLY HURTS FOR
THEM - WHAT WE HAVE TO WORK- NO WAY THEY SAY - WHAT THEY DO - THEY START
TO RAISE SMALL PETTY ISSUES LIKE 'TRUE' SIKH SHOULD SIT ON THE GROUND
AND EAT LANGAR- IF HE IS NOT - THEN HE IS DEFINETLY COMMITING A "BIG"
CRIME- HE IS INFACT DISHONOURING THE SAME RELLIGION HE HAS WORKED HARD
TO SPREAD AROUND THE WORLD IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!! NOW GENUINE JAT
SIKHS FIGHT BACK - AS THEY KNOW THE LAW OF THE LAND - THEY USE TO THEIR
ADVANTAGE- WHAT HAPPENS NEXT - FAKE AMRITDARIS HAVE TO "DO" SOMETHING -
OTHERWISE EVERYTHING IS LOST!!! THEY GET THE "GULLIGARA TAKHAN"
JATHEDAR RANJIT SINGH TO ISSUE A HUKAMNAME- BY PAYING HIM MONEY - IT
LOOKS LIKE TO BECOME OUR HIGHEST SIKH PRIEST- YOU HAVE TO ATLEAST KILL
FEW PEOPLE AND LEAST BEPOORELY EDUCATED AND ARROGANT- LISTEN TO HIS
PUNJABI SOMETIMES- ITS VERY UNCULTURED AND SHALLOW- HIS GRAMMER AND WORD
SELECTION IS VERY POOR- HE IS A PRODUCT OF VERY CORRUPT POLITICAL AND
EDUCATION SYSTEM IN PUNJAB - WHICH IS IMPROVING SLOWLY- EVERYTHING TAKES
TIME- NOW GULLIGARA TAKHAN MAKES HIS POST A BUSINESS- AS TAKHANS ARE
MOSTLY FINANICALLY DEPRIVED- THEY DON'T WORK ON LAND AS THEY DON'T OWN
ANY - THEY HAVE STARTED TO USE SIKHISM AS A "BUSINESS" MILKING SIKHI BY
KNOWING HOW TO DO LITTLE BIT OF KIRTAN- THEY HAVE MADE IT THEIR
PROFESSIONS- AS IN JATS WE STRIVE TO OUTDO EACH OTHER IN OWNING MORE
LAND THEN OTHER ONES- MAKING MORE CAPITAL - THESE GULLIGARA 'TAKHANS',
'PHARTARAS" WORK 'HARD' TO GET THE HIGHEST POST IN SIKHI- WHY - BEACUSE
IT PAYS WELL!!!- NOW THAT RANJIT "EXMURDERER" ILLITERATE, UNCULTURED
TAKHAN IS ON THE HIGHEST POST - HE MUST MILK IT AS MUCH AS HE CAN- ITS
LIKE $20,000 FOR A HUKAMNAMA- ANY TAKERS- HE TAKES MONEY AND CARS TO
MAKE HIMSELF FININICIALLY COMFORTABLE- SIKHI TO HIM IS A BUSINESS- HE
MUST SELL HIMSELF TO PAY FOR HIS EXPENSES AND TO SECURE HIS FUTURE HE
MUST "MARKET" HIS SIKHI POSITION EFFIECNTLY- SO AS HE IS FOR SALE-
THESE FAKE AMRITDARIS THOUGH DON'T LIKE HIM PUTTING HIS PRICE UP HAVE
TO PAY UP OTHERWISE THEY WILL LOOSE 'THEIR" GURUDWARA "INCOME"- THEY PAY
UP HE ISSUES A HUKAMNAMA- WITHOUT CONSULTING THE PUBLIC WHICH IS GOING
TO BE EFFECTED- AS THESE GENUINE JAT SIKHS WHO HAVE BEEN EFFECTED DPN'T
BELIVE IN BRIBING OR PAYING UP FOR JATHEDARS 'SERVICES', THEY HAVE TO
FACE THE CONSEQUENCES AND FACE THE FAKE AMRITDARIS - WHO NOW HAVE A
HUKAMNAMA($20,000 AND CARS AND ON TOP OF THAT MONTHLY "DONATIONS" TO
JATHEDAR) ENSURES OR ATLEAST CREATES A HOPE FOR THEM THAT THEIR
"GURUDWARA" INCOMES MAY 'START' BACK PRETTY SOON - IN THE MEANTIME THEY
HAVE TO CLAIM 'SOCIAL WELFARE' FOR TIME BEING- NOW FIVE THOUSAND FOR A
NAME TO BE EXCOMMUNICATED FROM SIKHISM - FAKE AMARTDARIS DON'T LIKE THE
FACT THAT 'TIDE' OF GENUINE PEOPLE HAS TURNED AND IT IS AGAINST THEM -
WHEN U MISUSE THE SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN MADE TO PROTECT TO, HELP YOU -
THAT SYSTEM FIGHTS BACK AND EVENTUALLY "YOU HAVE TO PAY THE PRICE" SO
FAKE AMRITDARI- A JAT WHO HAD TO RESORT TO SIKHI TO MAKE A LIVING - SAD
BUT TRUE IS SLOWLY LOSING THE BATTLE- AS HIS KIDS WILL GROW UP ONE DAY
IN THIS COUNTRY- BROUGHT UP IN A CULTURE ALIEN TO HIM - HE WILL REALISE
THEN THAT HE PAYED THE ULTIMATE PRICE- U MUST GIVE SOMETHING- WHEN YOU
ARE TAKING SOMETHING- NO BODY WINS IN THE LONGRUN- IT ALL EQUALS OUT- A
TALE OF UNEDUCATED JAT FROM PUNJAB AND WHERE HE HAS ENDED UP - IS TRUELY
A SAD SAGA- HARSH BUT A NATURAL WAY OF LIFE- YOU MUST EVOLVE OR YOU WILL
BE LEFT BEHIND- FINALLY ONLY A SECOND OR THIRD GENERATION JAT SIKH BORN
AND BREED IN THESE OVERSEAS COUNTRIES CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT "ULTIMATE
PRICE" IS - FOR FAKE JAT TRYING TO BE A TRUE "AMRITDARI" SIKH- TIME TO
MOVE ON - ENOUGH MILKING THE GURUDWARA JOB - TIME TO GET A REAL JOB!!!
SIKHI HAS GONE FOR SALE- ANY TAKERS
SAD BUT TRUE - HARD FOR FRESH OFF THE BOAT PEOPLE TO COMHREHEND BUT
GENUINE SIKHS KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON
TELLING THE WAY I SEE IT
SONS OF PUNJAB
Perpindervir Singh
:
5...@news.hal-pc.org> <35C59D...@hotmail.com>
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution:
Sons of Punjab (jala...@hotmail.com) wrote:
After much capitilized huffing and puffing....
: SIKHI HAS GONE FOR SALE- ANY TAKERS
: SAD BUT TRUE - HARD FOR FRESH OFF THE BOAT PEOPLE TO COMHREHEND BUT
: GENUINE SIKHS KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON
: TELLING THE WAY I SEE IT
: SONS OF PUNJAB
Its unfortunate that you immediately assume anyone "fresh of the
boat" is uneducatated. Assuming your assumption is correct, are you
sure you're not "fresh of the boat"? Your grammar and logic leave much
to be desired.
Perpinder Singh
P.S. Please stop capitalizing all your posts. Not only is it annoying, it is
quite childish as well.
Bikham
MrsSingh
promised to take me to "the best lunch in town".I later found myself
at langar in the local gurudwara.
Much has happened since then but what has not changed is that
few of us are there at the beginning and a couple hundred join about
15 minutes before langar.Services started later for a while to capture
this audience but they just came later.Sadly a lot of the sikhs come
for social reasons,to eat and to avoid having to cook sunday brunch.I
guess it is better that they come then rather than not come at all but
langar is a part of worship.
I was very happy to hear of the hukkumnama against marriages
in wedding halls because less respect is paid to Guru Granth Sahib at
these occasion and I was happy to hear of the hukumnama against tables
and chairs.I would be even happier if there was a hukumnama against
community announcements,social events and political speaches and
fundraising till after langar and not before it because I think these
detract froom religious practice.
I feel that Ranjit Singh and the Akaal Takht are being very
progressive about taking a stand on these issues.
Mrs Singh
On 3 Aug 1998 23:30:29 GMT, spat...@unixg.ubc.ca (Perpindervir Singh)
wrote:
Sons of Punjab
> I feel that Ranjit Singh and the Akaal Takht are being very
> progressive about taking a stand on these issues.
> Mrs Singh
>
"Actually" being progressibe about these issues. But Unfortunetly He is
sold "Gulikara" Takhan trying to make a money out of these Fake
Amritdaris pockets- its a funny situation- every Fake Bastard on a High
Sikhi Post is trying to milk it as much as they can. How you can call
issuing a Hukamnama that takes you back into the 18th century as
progressive- IS this langar issue is "Really" THE most important issue
Sikhs are facing overseas and in Punjab - I don't Think so- Mrs Singh -
there is more to this then a "nice JAthedar trying to set things right.
He is on a monthly dog bones(American, Canadian and English
Fundamentist fake sikhs are giving him monthly "donations" to make sure
he stays put on this Hukamnama) - Ranjit Singh is a Gulikara Takhan- He
has to milk Sikhi to make a living- Life is tough in Punjab and Sugar
and Salt is definetly expensive in Punjab- You have to do something for
living- for some people that means - Selling Sikhi - Making it a
Business- 21st Century Sikhs are Definetly on the right track with
leaders like Ranjit!!!!!!!!
Have a good one
There is more to it
Telling it the way I see it
Sons of Punjab
Sons of Punjab
DON'T WAIT- ITS A MUST HAVE CLASSICAL COLLECTION- APPROVED BY THE
FAKE KHLALISTAN CHOOR FEDERATION AND SIKH YOUTH ON SOCIAL WELFARE
FEDERATION AND HIGHLY RECOMMENDED BY THE FAKE AMRITDARI "BEGGARS" CLUB
A MASTERPIECE SAYS TIME MAGAZINE
ju...@hotmail.com
Overlord <o...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ju...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > As for us sikhs, we have done to ourselves in the last 15 years what no one
> > has been able to do in the last 150 years...we join the rest of the "hindu-
> > stanis" in becoming a servile, morally corrupt, ill-disciplined and
un-united
> > group of money grubbing "use-to-be"s...tragic
>
> Yea right. By nature, terrorists like you are wholesome,
> morally righteous, not corrupt, hightly diciplined and
> united. Thats why khalistanis and other sikhs and punjabis
> are sword fighting in gurdwaras over the right to have
> tables and chairs in there.
>
> When will you get that morally righteous thumb of your
> out of your rear?
Just remember that the same "khalistanis" are those whose forefathers
may have saved your ancestors' rears from muslim/afghan joota. Although
I am no khalistani, nor am I interested in gurudwara politics (which
just proves my point above), I would respectfully say to you that perhaps
you should change your name to dhotiwallah, and then you can, as many
hindustanis have done for eons, pass judgement from a vantage of groveling
and ass picking (which a dhoti is nice for).
jsa...@my-dejanews.com
> thind (sing...@intergate.bc.ca) wrote:
> : The Jathedar of akaal Takhat has no authority outside of Punjab, Haryana
> : and Himachal Pardesh.
Thind saheb, if one beleives your argument, why even outside of Punjab? Why
even in Haryana and Himachal Pardesh? Hell with it, according to your
argument why even rest of Punjab when Akal Takhat is only in Amritsar. So
according to your so called modern, global, scientific religious thoughts,
Akal Takhat was built by Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib only for sikhs of
Amritsar!! What a great discovery!!! Thind Saheb, you can blame lot of
things and issues on the Fundamentaliss or Khalistani Militants (I undersatnd
they are not perfect), but on the issue of chairs and tables, you are just
very unfortunate to be on the wrong side of the argument.
Have anice time.
JSandhu
thind
For the general Sikh peoples' knowledge, here is a bit of info.
regarding an earlier Hukamnama issued by Jathedar Partap Singh in
early '50s. I hope some people will try to understand the need
(the urgence) for another one a couple of months ago. This is not
a question of Langar on Chairs vs. Floor . Its simply Greed and
Egoism for the people who lost control in a democratic way in
temples' elections. Well, people have become aware of the
situation now, and are united than ever before to keep out the
Thugs....More to follow....Major S. Thind
Prior to this, during the period Singh Sahib Giani Partap Singhji*
this
problem surfaced. So the knowledgeable Jathedar Sahib called a
meeting of
Panthak scholars and sought their opinion. They (scholars) after
carefully
considering the problem gave the opinion that sitting together
without any
discrimination and eating the Langar is the principle of Gurmat.
The
superstition whether to eat (the Langar) either seated on the
ground or on
tables and chairs is not in accordance with Gurmat. The Langar can
be eaten
without discrimination sitting any where. In this connection, a
Hukamnama
was issued from Sri Akal Takht Sahib according to which this
discussion was
closed. Now this argument has started again and the Gurdwaras of
Canada, the
sangat of Surrey addressed an open letter to Jathedar Ranjeet Singh
which
was published in the Journal "Sikh Chetna". Without considering the
representation and contrary to the previously issued Hukamnama, it
is not
correct to issue another Hukamnama now. If there were need for it,
the
opinion of the scholars should have been obtained afresh. As a
matter of
fact Singh Sahib Manjit Singhji and Singh Sahib Giani Kewal Singhji
were
fully conversant with this situation. It is not understood how
these two
luminaries hew accorded their agreement (to the new Hukamnama). For
taking
this step, it has particularly caused uneasiness among the sangats
of
foreign countries. A question mark has consequently been put on
the
knowledgability of the Jathedars with regard to Gurmat.
* Singh Sahib Giani Partap Singh held the office of Jathedar Sri
Akal Takht
Sahib between 1952-55.
================================================================
Dr. Jai Maharaj wrote:
> Excerpts
>
> "Vancouver police close Sikh temple because of factional feud
> "Police closed one of Canada's largest Sikh temples
> Sunday, fearing a clash between moderate and fundamentalist
> factions.
> Police Chief Bruce Chambers said officers acted after
> fa
==============================================================
thind
Sikhs and Hukamnams....
1
For the general Sikh peoples' knowledge, here is a bit of info.
regarding an earlier Hukamnama issued by Jathedar Partap Singh in
early '50s. I hope some people will try to understand the need
(the urgence) for another one a couple of months ago. This is not
thind
Sikhs' for betterment of...
Date:
Sun, 02 Aug 1998 00:09:59 -0700
From:
thind <sing...@intergate.bc.ca>
Newsgroups:
alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Institute of Sikh Studies
959, Sector59(Phase IV)S.A.S.Nagar,Chandigarh,India 160 059
Phone:(0172)670570: Fax: (0172)220959
APPEAL
1.Recent reports from British Columbia (Canada) have been very disturbing. The
split in the
sangat over the use of chairs and tables in langar, is a matter of serious
concern. The split can
spread to other areas abroad and divide the Sikh community permanently into two
warring
groups. The plans for global unity of the Panth on the occasion of the
Trecentenary of the
Khalsa may thus be frustrated axposing the Panth to fresh dangers in the future.
2.Our agitated brothers have sent scores of representations to sikh organisations
in India
including S.G.P.C. Unfortunately, there has been no visible response, although
all thinking
sikhs have shared the pain over the developments.
3.Without going into the merits of the issue of the chairs in langar, we wish to
draw the
attention of the Panth to this situation in which unity of the Panth is
threatened, and the
authority of Sri Akal Takhat questioned. We, therefore, earnestly and humbly
appeal to the
sangat to keep calm consistent with traditions of the Panth and prestige of Sri
Akal Takhat and
not to do anything that can lead to further deterioration.
4We also wish to appeal to the S.G.P.C. President Sardar Gurcharan Singh Tohra as
well as
to Singh Sahib Bhai Ranjit Singh Jathedar Sri Akal Takhat to take note of the
developments in
the present cicumstances and to safegaurd the future of the Panth. Since use of
chairs in
langar in certain situations did not violate ant basic tenet of Sikhism,
implementation of earlier
decision could be stayed pending further consideration and efforts to secure
unanimity.
5.We also appeal to The Chief Khalsa Diwan as well as other Sikh organisations
and all Sikhs,
including scholars and antellectuals to throw in their weight to salvage the
rapidly deteriorating
situation.
Signed by
all members of the Institute:
July 10,
98
Dr. Kuldip Singh
To
Dr. Kirpal Singh
1. Singh Sahib, Bhai Ranjit Singh, Ms.
Baljit Kaur
Jathedar,Sri Akal Takhat Sahib,
Sardar Santokh Singh
Amritsar.
Sardar Tharam Singh
2. Sardar Gurcharan Sungh Tohra, Dr.
Sukhjit Kaur
President,
S.G.P.C., Sardar Sardul
Singh
Amritsar.
Brig. Hardit Singh
Dr. Kharak Singh
==============================================================
Perpindervir Singh
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution:
Sons of Punjab (jala...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: MrsSingh wrote:
: > I feel that Ranjit Singh and the Akaal Takht are being very
: > progressive about taking a stand on these issues.
: > Mrs Singh
: >
: Mrs Singh - I wish that was the truth - that Ranjit Singh was
: "Actually" being progressibe about these issues. But Unfortunetly He is
: sold "Gulikara" Takhan trying to make a money out of these Fake
: Amritdaris pockets
References please. If you can provide proof/evidence that
the Jathedar is stealing money, I will act with you in your crusade
to spread the word. Lacking proof (as I assume is the case), please
provide some solid logic backing up your story. Of course, references
are preferable considering you don't seem to have the spine to post
under you own name.
Also, you mention "Fake Amritdharis". Please clarify:
Do you mean to say all amritdharis are fake, some are fake,
or those who disagree with you are fake?
As well, please define what you mean by fake amritdhari?
- its a funny situation- every Fake Bastard on a High
: Sikhi Post is trying to milk it as much as they can.
References please. Your word means jackshit on a newsgroup even
if you had 'courage' to post under your real name. With references, anything
'factual' you post is unsubstantial and subject to doubt.
Lack of references coupled with your lack of a name leads
to an immediate dismissal of anything 'factual' you post.
How you can call
: issuing a Hukamnama that takes you back into the 18th century as
: progressive-
First off, get your facts straight. The hukum does not
take you back into the 18th century as the custom of sitting on the
floor is existant in all but a tiny, handful of gurudwaras.
The hukumnama is progressive because it deals head on with the
problem of differing practices within different gurudwaras and is
the first strong, definitive move in creating solidarity amongst
gurudwaras in a long,long time.
IS this langar issue is "Really" THE most important issue
No it is not. However, there was a problem in B.C. arising
out of conflicting opinions over seating arrangements in gurudwaras.
The conflict was extremely heated and the Jathedar moved quickly
to resolve it.
I'm sure you would have had no problem with the hukumnama had it
been in favor of sitting on tables and chairs.
: Sikhs are facing overseas and in Punjab - I don't Think so- Mrs Singh -
: there is more to this then a "nice JAthedar trying to set things right.
If there is more, come out and say it and back it up with
some solid references, or logic. I'm a terrible guesser, so out with
it.
: He is on a monthly dog bones(American, Canadian and English
: Fundamentist fake sikhs are giving him monthly "donations" to make sure
: he stays put on this Hukamnama)
My goodness!!! Such a bold statement yet no substantiating
of the facts.
While we're making bold statements without substantiation
let me make some of my own:
1.) There are little green men living on the moon.
2.) The little green men subsist on green cheese.
3.) The moon is made of green cheese.
: There is more to it
: Telling it the way I see it
: Sons of Punjab
Do you see the little, green men eating green cheese on a
green cheese moon as well?
: > On 3 Aug 1998 23:30:29 GMT, spat...@unixg.ubc.ca (Perpindervir Singh)
: > wrote:
: > >
Sons of Punjab
BETWEEN JATHEDAR AND A SIKH FROM STATES- HE CLEARLY ASKS FOR MONEY TO
BUY A DIESEL POWERED MARUTI VAN AND SAYS THAT HE IS GETTING "DONATIONS"
FROM FEDERATION MONKEYZ TO HELP HIM FIGHT THE "EVIL" IN OUR RELIGION -
MAKE INQUIRES AND GET THAT TAPE - YOU WILL THEN KNOW THE REAL FACE OF
THE BASTARD- HE A DOG WHO BARKS WHEN THERE IS BONE IN FRONT OF HIM - A
DISGRACE ON SIKH RELIGION-
SONS OF PUNJAB
Sons of Punjab
Try to understand what he is trying to say MR Sandhu- Don't be just a
typical ______ . Thind Saheb has a valid point. Read the text CAREFULLY.
If your mind is already made up - don't get into the discussion.
Sons of Punjab
jsa...@my-dejanews.com
If you please read my mesage CAREFULLY, you will see that I am not taking
sides on the issue but I am cutting the argument that Mr. Thind made. The
lot of arguments by both sides are very ridiculous and don't have any logic
to them and you might have heard them or read them somewhere. I believe that
this issue is dividing the Sikhs very badly. I have talked to people on both
sides of the issue and they start defending their rigid positions but every
one of them at the end of the discussion have aggreed that it should not have
been the issue in the first place. Sikhs have lot of other problems to solve
for their safe (note, I am not saying bright) future. I think this issue has
been much politicised by the people who have nothing to do with religion (on
both sides) and it is Gurdwara politics in it pure form. Nothing more,
nothing less But has the potential to damage the Sikh image very seriously
all over the world.
And Mr. Sons of Punjab, you should change your name before calling names to
other people. The word "Sons" in your name also tells me that your posts are
not just your thoughts but are motivated by some external group idealogy.
Every one have a nice day and let us continue the discussion. We might not
reach a conclusion but atleast we will know all facets of the issue.
JSandhu
In article <35C946...@hotmail.com>,
thind
I have read your postings about the on-going saga of eating Langar on
floor or chairs & tables. I am very proud of you for doing this at a very appropriate time. Our community is
going through very hard times. We are all prepared for any type of consequences, we may have to face. These
Fundamentalists do not want to listen, or discuss these things and are always looking for ways to re-gain
control of Gurudwaras. Well, this is not going to happen. If we want to keep our chilren connected with our
Religion, culture, language etc.,We have to change, make changes in our life styles, according to times and
places we adopt for living a normal, peaceful lives, as law-abiding citizens. One last thing, please try to
avoid Caste clasifications in your posts as it divides the people. Now , we should be happy that present
conflic has United the people from all walks of life. We are proud to be Sikhs. In the past, these
fundamentalists divided people along Sehjdhari vs. keshadhari, Malvayee vs. Doabia, Jats vs. other castes .
The Guru ji has played a very big role in bringing everyone together as a True Sikh . So the
fundamentalists are losing their battle on a daily basis , as more people are becoming aware of the real
issues.Even the GIANIS( i will call this a bunch of A-giaanis) have shown their true colors by refusing to
perform their respective duties. Every one fully UNDERSTANDS, The real issue is not Chairs etc. Its the
money and prestige, they want to take control of, nothing else. Its is my hope that you will cotinue to
cotribute your sincere effot in making the people more aware, without using any kind of profanity or
divisive wording. Thanks ...
Yours Truly....Major Singh Thind
Sons of Punjab
EVIL prevails everywhere- IF Sikhi is to move into the 21st Century - we
must make efforts to integrate ourselves into it - FOR OUR NEXT
GENERATIONS SAKE- And SOns of Punjab is not a external organisation but
NEXT GENERATIONS SIKHS making a effort to integrate themselves into 2st
century- TIME to MAKE A STAND Sandhu SAAB- DOn't SIT ON the FENCE when
you can sit on the Tables
Sons of Punjab
Mo
who have cut their hair ? Most advts from Sikh girls specify a clean
shaven man..
Sons of Punjab
married - your marriage is not recoginsed as a Gursikh Marriage - He is
going back to the Dark ages - Fools like him are a shame on our society
jsa...@my-dejanews.com
address you),
Sons of Punjab <jala...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> SandhuSaab- Remember sometimes in life you have to take a stand
Yaa, but just taking a stand for the sake of a stand is not good buddy. I
looks like you have taken the stand in favour of Tables because your opponents
happen to be in favour of floor. Now that does not sound very intelligent to
me.
>when
> EVIL prevails everywhere-
So when did favouring the floor instead fo tables or vice versa became an
evil. It may be a controversial religious issue at the best
- we
> must make efforts to integrate ourselves into it - FOR OUR NEXT
> GENERATIONS SAKE- And SOns of Punjab is not a external organisation but
> NEXT GENERATIONS SIKHS making a effort to integrate themselves into 2st
> century-
What? I thought you were accusing your opponents of moving khalsa panth back
to 17th century. and Now you are even going further back to the second
century. Good luck man.. Only problem is that when you will traveling back to
1999 you will have to fight with Aurandzeb...Nadir Shah, Abdali etc and
sitting on chairs won't help you at all.
So you want to bring next generation sikhs to the Gurdwaras... We have been
sitting on Chairs and Tables for 90 years ( as your friends say) and If I
don't forgot our kids got alienated from our religious places and got into
gangs and drugs during that time period.
>TIME to MAKE A STAND Sandhu SAAB-
STAND STAND STAND....you seem to have a problem with taking STAND, brother.
You should think before you take a stand not take a stand and then argue.
> DOn't SIT ON the FENCE when
> you can sit on the Tables
So that is the incentive you offer when your arguments don't work....
JSandhu
thind
THANKS TO YOU...
From ;- Dr. Preetam Singh, Q.C.
456 Coronet Avenue,
Beaconsfield, PQ H9W 2E7
Tel: (514) 695-0323
Fax: (514) 695-0993
To Dr, Khark Singh ji Bt Respected Associates
INSTITUTE OF SIKH STUDIES,
959 Sector 59 (Phase IV), SAS Nagar
Chandigarh, Punjab 160059
India
Dear Dr. Kharak Singhji,
Waheguruji ka Khalsa
Waheguruji ki Fateh
Fax : 91-172 220959
It pains most thinking Sikhs that the unique and wonderful religion
which Guru Nanak founded and his nine successor Gurus nurtured, instead of
being a beacon for the salvation of mankind, is being mired in controversy
and sectarianism. It bodies ill for future, There is hardly any ripple of
condemnation from the present generation of religious' leaders, from which
one could assume that they have any interest in the nourishment of this
great religion. The Sikh politicians at the helm are too deeply immersed in
their selfish pursuit of politicking, that they do not display any interest
in what is Likely to happen to the Sikh society, culture and religion,
Your Appeal dated July 10", 1998, is one ray of hope, that might
awaken the wayward Sikhs into thinking about the abyss towards which all the
current misdeeds of the few are leading the entire Sikh community. I would
like to add my personal views on this problem. Today, Sikhism has reached
four corners of the Earth. Pioneers who blazed the trail into Australia, New
Zealand, Canada, USA, and even Britain ~suffered untold deprivations and
hardships, Now they are, at last, able to hand over to the succeeding
generations the fruits in the form of dignity, equality and citizenship,
The multiracial, multilingual, multiethnic and multicultural
environment in which they exist is a challenge in itself. In matters of
economies, they are self-sufficient and self-assured, but in matters of
religion, they are being either totally neglected by the fountain head in
the Punjab or are being led into wrong directions. Instead of having a solid
background, they are being turned into a factor of impotency, The World
looks upon their suicidal antics with glee. For 239 years, we had the
guidance of living Gurus. By then, presumably we had matured enough to
perform on our own with the religious guidance of Guru Granth Sahib in
religious matters, and the Panj Piaras and the Khalsa Panth for our secular
advancement. Our history shows that through days of turbulence and peace, we
were continually sustained by Gurbani, Through our Panthic fervour we
attained political heights that reflect credit on the community as a whole.
Nevertheless, the thread of fratricide has raised its ugly head from time to
time to thwart our progress.
In the present times, we cannot simply read Gurbani and take Amrit and
safeguard the progress of the Sikh religion. The five evils mentioned by our
Gurus (Lust, Anger, Greed, Attachment & Egoism) are still being recited and
pointed out to us by the preachers, but in fact they are being ignored. The
fact that the Amritdharis look down upon the non-initiated Sikhs has become
so universal that it is unacceptable, Gurdwaras are springing up all over
the countries. No expense is spared in building these, but there is the
dearth of genuine devotees. Of the contributors to the funds, the vast
majority is non~Amritdharis, yet when it comes to managing these, the
Amritdharis want to control all activities and lock on to the funds,
The Amritdhari should provide a shining example of integrity and
meticulous religious performance. So that the un-initiated would be so
impressed as to seek longingly to being one such.
Since this is not happening, just exhorting non-Amritdharis to take
Amrit because the 300" anniversary is looming, is not enough. Since its
creation by Guru Bar Gobindji, Sri Akal Takht Sahib has been looked upon by
the Sikh World as the source of guidance in all secular matters relating to
the solution of their problems. Since then four more Takhts have been
created and accepted by the Sikhs as being co-existent and of equal status
Inter se, Unfortunately, there is no document in existence that lays down
the constitution, jurisdiction and functions of these five Takhts, The
practice of appointing the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib was left to the
Sarbat Khalsa. Maharaja Ranjeet Singh suspended the Sarbat Khalsa and now
the SGPC has taken over this appointment, We must wake up to the fact that a
parochial Sarbat Khalsa in the PunJab is not acceptable to the Sikhs whose
three or four generations have settled abroad. The appointment by SGPC is
even less acceptable because of its limited geographical jurisdiction over
the Historic Gurdwaras of the Punjab as it was in 1925, The consequences of
such limited constituencies are so apparent that for any one person in
charge of one or the other Takhts to have a free hand in issuing Hukamnamas
that affect the entire Sikh community in the Punjab as well as abroad is
unacceptable. The recent issue of Hukamnamas by the present incumbent of Sri
Akal Takht Sahib is flawed in many ways. First, the Jathedars of the five
Takhts do not meet together to consider a point of difficulty. Second, the
Jathedar of the Akal Takht, in order to bye-pass the Jathedars of Sri Patna
Sahib and Sri Hazoor Sahib, invites the Head Granthis of Sri Harmmdir Sahib
and Sri Akal Takht Sahib to make up five representatives. Alluding~ to these
Head Granthis as "Singh Sahibs" is unacceptable because traditionally only
the appointed Jathedars of the Five Takhts are entitled to title. The
universally accepted principle is that a delegate cannot himself delegate
somebody else. Therefore the Jathedar being himself a delegate of the SGPC,
does not possess the authority to appoint ad hoc Singh Sahibs. In a recent
report, it is rumored that the Jathedar of Sri Kesgarh Sahib declined to
being associated with the Akal Takhts on the matter of ex-communication of
certain B.C, Sikhs. He was replaced by the Jathedar of the Akal Takht Sahib
by an ex-Jathedar who used to be the Jathedar of one of the five Takhts,
Third, when a matter of such importance is under consideration by the five
Takhts, particularly where the Sikh community abroad is affected, there
should be consultation with the scholars and leaders representing the whole
spectrum of the Sikh society. Conferring the Jathedari of the Takhts should
not be taken lightly. The Sikhs (Amritdharis and non- Amritdharis) all over
the world have particular reverence for the Hukamnamas, Therefore, the
persons appointed as Jathedars attain a certain eminence that distinguishes
them from ordinary Granthis. They must, therefore, be of impeccable
religious and social background, capable of understanding the problems and
the environmental situations of the Sikhs Worldwide, Indeed, they should be
guiders and not dictators, Five, the object of the Takhts must be there to
encourage the flowering of the Sikh community, particularly keeping in view
that the coming generations of the Sikhs need careful nurturing to keep them
as part of the Sikh religion today and as the future leaders in whose hands
the welfare of the community is going to rest. Today's attitude emanating at
the centre is very discouraging to the youth and harmful for the future.
Six, any one Jathedar of a Takht does not have the power to ignore or
overrule a Hukamnama issued by a previous Jathedar.
It is to be hoped that means would be found in India to take care of
these fundamental needs of the community living in and out of India, It took
many years to compile the SGPC Rehat Maryada. There are many points on which
the Sikhs, ·particularly those abroad, are unhappy, but the entire
community has accepted those. It is just over a half a century ago, that
Giani Partap Singh, Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib (1952-55) promulgated a
Hukamnama relating to the use of tables and chairs for Langar. Giani Gurdit
Singh of Ratlam (Maharashtra) pointed this out in a letter published in the
monthly edition of the Spokesman for June 1998, but it is surprising that no
one appears to have given much weight to that edict. It appears that Giani
Partap Singh had clarified the principle of Langar and Pangat by stating
that the object of the tradition is that there must not be any
discrimination among the partakers of the sanctified Langar, and that
whether the Langar is eaten sitting on the ground, or on tables seated on
chairs is but a Bharam (superstition), The practicing of these and similar
Bharams is totally alien to Gurbani. The havoc that is being caused in North
America, New Zealand and UK is very distressing and needs to be tackled by
right thinking Sikhs judicially, sympathetically and with firmness.
I whole heartedly support your Appeal.
Montreal, 31-7-1998
Yours fraternally,
Dr. Preetam Singh, Q.C.,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perpindervir Singh wrote:
> Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
> Distribution:
>
> thind (sing...@intergate.bc.ca) wrote:
> : The Jathedar of akaal Takhat has no authority outside of Punjab, Haryana
> : and Himachal Pardesh.
>
> And this is so becuase you say it is? The Akal Takhat has authority
> on all Sikh issues wether the Sikhs be living in India, Europe, Canada, Mars,
> Jupiter etc. It matters not the locale of the Sikh but wether the individual
> is a Sikh or not. If the individual claims he/she is a Sikh, then by virtue
> of that claim he/she falls under the authority of the Akal Takhat and any
> issued edicts.
>
> Also he is only the servent/speaker of sikhs and has no
> authority to issue: any kind of edicts on his own.
>
> The jathedar of the Akal Takhat is not the servant of Sikhs.
> He is the servant of Sikhi. He, when in accordance with the jathedars
> of the other Takhats, has full authority to issue edicts. Again, he is
> not subject to the whims and fancies of Sikhs but is subject to Sikhi.
>
> Our message to him is , please let everyone live in peace, where
> : ever one resides. More later on...
> : Yours Truly....Major Singh Thind
>
Ch. Rajinder NIJJHAR
satguru never mind guru, Satguru or Sachae Paatshah? They have no desire
to learn either but speak JHAKH.
Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar, M.Sc.
A Jat of the United Greater Panjab,
Mussallmaan of Pir Nanak Shah,
Gnostics are the living christs (satgurus) and NOT Christians, of Living
Allah (Spirit),
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/index.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/index.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.dnet.co.uk/users/bargainflights/gnostic/home.htm
http://www.saqnet.co.uk/users/cheapflights/sikhism.htm
thind wrote in message <35CFB15B...@intergate.bc.ca>...
>the Sikhs, 搆articularly those abroad, are unhappy, but the entire
Ch. Rajinder NIJJHAR
thind wrote in message <35CCCF6C...@intergate.bc.ca>...
>Sat Sri Akaal ji,
> I have read your postings about the on-going saga of eating Langar on
>floor or chairs & tables. I am very proud of you for doing this at a very
appropriate time. Our community is
>going through very hard times. We are all prepared for any type of
consequences, we may have to face. These
>Fundamentalists do not want to listen, or discuss these things and are
always looking for ways to re-gain
>control of Gurudwaras. Well, this is not going to happen. If we want to
keep our chilren connected with our
>Religion, culture, language etc.,We have to change, make changes in our
life styles, according to times and
>places we adopt for living a normal, peaceful lives, as law-abiding
citizens. One last thing, please try to
>avoid Caste clasifications in your posts as it divides the people.
Caste makes people Hindus that unites people. Sons of Satan have no caste
classification.
Which Bhagat concealed his tribe?
>Now , we should be happy that present
>conflic has United the people from all walks of life. We are proud to be
Sikhs. In the past, these
>fundamentalists divided people along Sehjdhari vs. keshadhari, Malvayee vs.
Doabia, Jats vs. other castes .
>The Guru ji has played a very big role in bringing everyone together as a
True Sikh . So the
>fundamentalists are losing their battle on a daily basis , as more people
are becoming aware of the real
>issues.Even the GIANIS( i will call this a bunch of A-giaanis) have shown
their true colors by refusing to
>perform their respective duties. Every one fully UNDERSTANDS, The real
issue is not Chairs etc. Its the
>money and prestige, they want to take control of, nothing else. Its is my
hope that you will cotinue to
>cotribute your sincere effot in making the people more aware, without using
any kind of profanity or
>divisive wording. Thanks ...
> Yours Truly....Major Singh Thind
>
What can you expect of the blind Sikhs? No union.
Bikham
- And SOns of Punjab is not a external organisation but
> NEXT GENERATIONS SIKHS making a effort to integrate themselves into 2st
> you can sit on the Tables
> jsa...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
So By being jokers the NEXT GENERATION integerate into the "2st
century" ?
thind
12:33 PM ET 08/12/98
Religious leaders meet in Oslo to preach tolerance
OSLO, Aug 12 (Reuters) - Jews, Moslems, Christians and
leaders of other religions met in Oslo on Wednesday to preach
greater tolerance to help defuse conflicts reaching from Kosovo
to Kashmir.
``The world human rights focus is often on political
persecution...we also need more awareness of the issue of
freedom of religion or belief,'' Norwegian Development and Human
Rights Minister Hilde Frafjord Johnson told Reuters.
About 200 delegates -- from shaven-headed Bhuddist monks to
Jewish Rabbis with long beards -- began four days of talks on
bolstering freedom of religion or belief at a hotel outside
Oslo.
Organisers set aside rooms for prayer and meditation and
gave a choice of vegetarian, halal or kosher food.
``Without freedom to worship, there can be no real political
freedom,'' said Johnson, a member of the cabinet of Prime
Minister Kjell Magne Bondevik, an ordained priest in Norway's
state Lutheran church.
She said that religion had perhaps been the main common
denominator in armed conflicts -- including between Serbs and
Moslems in Kosovo, Islamic Pakistan and Hindu-majority India
over Kashmir or between Moslems and Christians in Sudan.
Delegates blasted religious fundamentalism and called for
all sides to tighten respect for a 1981 U.N. declaration on
rights to freedom of religion and belief.
``Some religious people act as if they have authority to
force others to their side. People are taught to be cruel to
other people's religion,'' said Chung-Ok Lee, a representative
for Won Bhuddism to the United Nations.
Former Irish president Mary Robinson, the U.N. High
Commissioner for Human Rights, is also scheduled to speak at the
meeting.
Norway has hosted a string of conferences on peace issues
since it surprised the world by secretly helping broker a
landmark deal between Palestinians and Israel in 1993.
^REUTERS@
Belrup Patrola
Sons of Punjab wrote in message <35C946...@hotmail.com>...
>jsa...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Try to understand what he is trying to say MR Sandhu- Don't be just a
>typical ______ . Thind Saheb has a valid point. Read the text CAREFULLY.
>If your mind is already made up - don't get into the discussion.
>
>Sons of Punjab
>
Whats their to understand? Mr.Thind's argument has huge, gaping holes
and his points require little intellectual effort to discard. Read the
below posting by Mr.Sandhu and you'll see how easily he makes the 'points'
made by Thind to look foolish and quite I.Q handicapped.
Why don't you try to pick out the flaws in what Mr.Sandhu has pointed
and show us how well your thought proccesses function.
Perpinder Singh
thind
served on Singh Sahib Jathedar Ranjit Singh of Sri Akal Takht Sahib
The dispute that has arisen between the presently appointed Jathedar of Sri
Akal Takht Sahib and the Sikh sangats of British Columbia has caused uproar in
the North American and Punjabi newspapers. It is said that Sri Akal Takht is
the axle of the Sikh religion ; but this definition is only a half truth. An
axle, by itself, cannot do anything ; it requires wheels and power for its
function. When Guru Har Gobind Sahib ji was himself in Amritsar, the power
rested there ; but when he was in Kiratpur Sahib, the power rested in
Kiratpur. The power is Gurbani and, according to "Bani is Guru, and Guru is
Bani", the axle and the power both were vested in Guru Hargobind Sahib ji
himself.
The Sikhs in their everyday prayers declare and remind themselves of the Five
Takhts of Sikhism. It is clear, therefore, that these five Takhts have a deep
and unequivocal relationship with the Sikh tradition. If Guru Gobind Singh
ji resided in Anandpur Sahib, then the power was in Sri Kesgarh Sahib ; and
when Guru ji was in Damdama Sahib, then the power was in Sri Damdama Sahib.
The truth is that the undisputed temporal and spiritual leadership lay with
the person of the Guru Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh ji never visited Sri Amritsar
Sahib at any time. When the Guruji's widow, Mata Sundri ji appointed Bhai
Mani Singh as the High Priest of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, the Mata ji accorded
her full support to him.
During his lifetime, by establishing the Sikh Panth, Guru Gobind Singh ji
gave the secular leadership of the Panth to the Five Beloved Ones (Panj
Pyaras). In the same way, the Five Takhts have been established to give the
Sikhs guidance on temporal matters. Guru ji has never invested any one Sikh
(however eminent he may be) with the power to evaluate the Sikhs of the Guru.
Evaluation of the Sikhs is always the prerogative of the Guru himself. These
Five Takhts inter se each have equal status. Whatever the temporal problem of
the Sikh community may be, the Jathedars appointed to these Five Takhts have
the responsibility, considering the betterment, uplift and prosperity of the
Sikh Panth, to investigate, and after investigating all the aspects, to render
a satisfactory conclusion. There is the established precedent, that when two
Sikhs had a dispute, Mata Sundri ji, instead of rendering the verdict on her
own, appointed an arbitrator who was charged with hearing both sides of the
dispute and then to render an appropriate verdict. Similarly, the Jathedars
of the Five Takhts are charged to meet together and hear both sides of the
problem, and only then to render their verdict as arbitrators.
In the light of this background, let us see in which way the dispute between
the sangat of British Columbia and the presently appointed Jathedar of Sri
Akal Takht Sahib is being dealt with :-
1. Hukamnama issued from Sri Akal Takht Sahib dated April 20, 1998
(Exhibit No. 1).
a. No organization is named in this Hukamnama, the sangat of which allegedly
eats the Guru ka Langar on tables, usually seated on chairs.
b. In the Hukamnama, the Jathedar writes that "the meeting of Five Singh
Sahibs took place". In India the prefix and status "Singh Sahib" is only
applied to the appointed Jathedars of the Five Takhts. It was published in
the newspapers of North America that the Jathedar Sahib of Sri Akal Takht sat
with Five Granthis and rendered the verdict. If that news was wrongly
published, and if in fact the Jathedars of the other four Takhts were
participants with the Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht, then as the incumbent
Jathedar of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, why did you feel shy in naming those high
dignitaries, and recording their names ? Also, if all those four were with
you in this matter and were in agreement with you, then why did those four
Jathedars not append their respective names ? The problem, of which you make
reference, is not an ordinary simple matter ; the sangats of India and
overseas (who number more than many hundreds of thousand) are affected by it.
c. In the Hukamnama you also write that for a long time past in India and
abroad there was …… a dispute. The question arises : in this long period of
time, why did the organization of the Five Takhts remain silent ? What did
the Jathedar Sahibs do during this period, to gather together information
about the views of the affected sangats and in what way did their sitting on
chairs and eating Guru's Langar on tables transgress the tradition of Pangat
?
d. You further state "the tradition of Pangat, established from the time of
Guru Sahib, must be continued and maintained with faith and respect in every
way. The question arises : including the Langar Hall of Sri Amritsar Sahib,
which is such a large hall in existence, where the sangat can sit in one line,
and so eat the Guru's Langar ? The size of the four walls of a room is always
limited, and inevitably the sangat has to be seated in many lines. Therefore,
one line can consist of the so called higher ups, while the other one can be
that of the lower ones. To sit in the Pangat and eat Gurus Langar is a basic
principle of the Sikh religion. "Sitting" in one line or on the ground is not
the principle ; but the object is to eliminate the practice of discrimination
between high and low. The Guru's Langar is, therefore, open for every human
being. Persons participating must be sitting in the same manner, and must eat
the same food, without any discrimination. If the same kinds of tables be
placed together, and people eat the Langar sitting facing one another,
(provided their heads be covered and they do not wear shoes), then which
tradition of the Gurus' will have been transgressed ?
e. With sitting on the ground, the feet of the people would inevitably touch
the tray containing the Langar. Will that be the respect of the Langar or its
denigration? With the coming and going of the servers, dal is spilled, and
water also is spilled. The clothes of the members of the Sangat sitting next
get spoiled. By sitting on the chairs, keeping the Langar on the tables these
wrong things do not happen.
f. The Sikh Sangat is like all other human beings. With the march of times,
they (the Sikhs) also grow and progress. This (the Sikh) community is one of
Charhdi Kala (of vibrant optimism), and instead of forcing them to just tow
the line like automatons, they should be encouraged to move towards progress.
There was a time, when people in India used to sit on the ground, put their
dal in doonays and their roti on wide leaves. Then were developed the plates
and bowls of brass; for drinking they made round and glass type brass drinking
vessels. Today, trays made of plastic or stainless steel are being used.
From sitting on the ground, people progressed to sitting on rugs, and muras
and later to low stools. Now sitting on chairs and eating their meals has
become a common tradition. Did your meeting of April 20, 1998, discuss these
aspects ? If so, then it is your religious duty to give full details to the
sangat of those who took part in the meeting, and to acquaint them of the
views of all the participating Jathedar Sahibs.
g. It appears from your Hukamnama that you do not know which Gurdwaras in the
different parts of the World use tables and chairs. If that were not so, then
your "Hukamnama" would have been specifically addressed to those organizations
alone. Naturally, before taking the action to issue a Hukamnama, you would
have asked those organizations the reason for using chairs and tables, and
having so done you would have taken steps to find out and to have carefully
investigated their respective difficulties. It is possible that by dint of
your vast experience, and by using your tremendous influence, if not
eliminating their problems entirely, you might have helped to reduce those.
By not so doing, you have done great injustice. The Panth accorded to you
such a high status, that you should be eternally grateful to the Panth, and
diligently render such satisfactory decisions that would lead towards the
prosperity of the Panth. The Sangats would thereupon feel proud of your
Gurmukhta.
h. With the issue of this "Hukamnama", you have done gross injustice to the
weak and voiceless sector of the community whose members, in reaching foreign
shores, undergo great hardships, even to the extent of putting their lives in
jeopardy. By rendering kirtan and katha at Gurdwaras, they link the sangats
to Gurbani. Instead of properly dealing with those so-called guilty
organizations, you have transferred your responsibilities onto the shoulders
of these weak groups of our community. You have threatened these people, that
if they would not have the chairs and tables removed, Panthic action would be
taken against them. This threat is totally improper, and its utterance does
not reflect credit to your respectable status.
i. In Montreal, the well known city of Quebec, there were two Gurdwaras in
which the sangats sat on chairs and ate the Guru's Langar on tables. With the
passage of time, a new party took control of one of the Gurdwaras, and it then
removed the tables and chairs and started a new tradition of sitting on the
floor and eating the Langar. A few months later, a group from that Gurdwara
raided the other Gurdwara, and began forcibly to remove chairs and tables from
the dining area. The matter went to the police and these raiders then
retreated. However, as a consequence, this Gurdwara appealed to the Sri Akal
Takht Sahib and explained to that august organization their practical and
physical difficulties and requested that in these circumstances the sitting on
chairs and tables may not be considered to be a transgression of any
tradition. They sent three Registered Letters but instead of receiving a
reply the Gurdwara Sahib learned from the newspapers that a "Hukamnama" has
been issued on this subject. The Gurdwara Sahib approached the ragis and
dhadis and from them obtained a copy thereof. The question arises : after
such a long silence, how can Sri Akal Takht Sahib now have the temerity to
impose this Hukamnama on the Gurdwara Sahib ? Is it by oppressing and
threatening the poor ragis and dhadis with dire consequences ?
j. On one side, there are the mens' and womens' toilets, and on the other are
the childrens' classes. Leaving enough passage for these, there remains a
space of only 20 feet by 20 feet. Even if half of the membership of three
hundred and fifty persons may be present for Langar, it will be very difficult
for them to sit and eat the Langar within this narrow enclosure. By sitting
on chairs and eating the Langar on the tables, everyone can be catered for
quite easily.
Analyzing your "Hukamnama" of April 20, 1998, it is very clear that : -
1. This "Hukamnama" is illogical and invalid ;
2. This "Hukamnama" is not addressed to any of the organizations to whom you
desire to find guilty of transgression ;
3. The issue of this "Hukamnama" is ultravires and beyond your jurisdiction
qua Jathedar Sahib of Siri Akal Takht Sahib ;
4. Before issuing the "Hukamnama" it is incumbent upon yourself to discharge
the responsibility of proving that the organizations that are using tables
and chairs, are not treating the Guru's Langar with faith and respect ;
5. The threat that you have given to the functionaries such as ragis,
granthis, dhadis and parcharaks, that if the organizations at which they
render their services do not comply with your "Hukamnama", they (they ragis
etc.) will be punished according the rules of Sri Akal Takht Sahib, is totally
invalid.
6. For these foregoing reasons, you are being hereby served Notice that this
"Hukamnama" be withdrawn forthwith ; failing which, the sangat of those
organizations, whom you consider to be guilty, will take whatever actions they
deem necessary and you will be held responsible for costs and consequences.
On behalf of the affected sangats,
Montreal, June 16, 1998 PREETAM SINGH
cc: Jathedar Gurcharan Singh Tohra, President S.G.P.C. Sri Amrtisar Sahib
Singh Sahib Bhai Manjeet Singh ji, Jathedar Sri Kesgarh Sahib, Sri
Anandpur Sahib
Dr. Preetam Singh, Q.C., 456 Coronet Avenue,
Montreal, Quebec
H9W 2E7 Canada
Tel : (514) 695-0323
Fax : (514) 695-0993
===============================================================
To : Jathedar Gurcharan Singh JI Tohra
President S.G.P.C., Sri Amritsar
Respected Jathedar ji,
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Together with this letter, I am sending to you the copy a Notice that has
been sent to Singh Sahib Bhai Ranjeet Singh ji by Air Courier Service, on
behalf of the members of the affected sangats.
It has been published in the newspapers that you have supported this
"Hukamnama" of the Singh Sahib, but this is not a minor or simple matter which
the Singh Sahib or you alone can deal with. In order to finalize the "Rehat
Maryada" the S.G.P.C spent decades, and obtained the advice of many religious
leaders and scholars. In connection with the problem of Langar, it is not
enough to just say that the Langar should be eaten in a Pangat, sitting on the
ground, and that then only will it be in accordance with the Maryada. As it
stands, THAT statement is incorrect. The object of sitting in a Pangat is to
eliminate the discrimination between high and low. In modern times, how many
of the Guru's Sikhs sit on the ground and eat their food ? These days, even
the Jats in the villages have given up their ploughs and use tractors. By
sitting on the chairs and eating Guru's Langar on tables, the sanctity of the
Langar is maintained. By using tables of the same kind and using them in the
same way, eating the same food eliminates the distinction of high and low and
preserves sanctity of the Langar.
Today, we are at the dawn of the twenty first century. Please use your long
experience and benign influence. You do not have to pamper anyone ; and the
time for you to be afraid of anyone is long past. It is your destiny to
uphold truth and to dispense justice. This "Hukamnama" has been issued in
haste. Please establish a Commission of high stature, in which the Gurdwaras
of the foreign countries, and those Sikhs abroad who would like to present
their respective points of view, should be included. With a genuinely
fraternal approach, the solution to this problem can be reached according to
the Gurus' tradition. Here, neither the Singh Sahib's personality, nor your
own personality are being denigrated. The foreign sangats do not have any
intention to belittle either of you.
With affectionate Gur Fateh,
On behalf of the affected sangats,
Preetam Singh, Q.C.,
cc : Singh Sahib Bhai Manjeet Singh ji, Jathedar Sri Kesgarh Sahib ji, Sri
Anandpur Sahib, Ropar