Discussion on the love of Mirza for Sahiban vs. Love of Ranjha for Heer
Suminderpal Singh
It seems that the love story of Heer Ranjha is considered sacred enough
by Guru Gobind Singh to be mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib. Where as it is
very well known that the love story is frowned upon in the Punjabi culture.
Could someone be kind enough to shed some light on the love of Mirza for
Sahiban vs. love of Ranjha for Heer.
It is well known that Heer got married in the family of Khedhee and she
did actually leave for her in-laws and Ranjha did not have the audacity
to stop her from going.
On the other hand, ignoring the fact what Sahiban did with Mirzaa, Mirzaa
was brave enough to swoop away his love from her house before she could
get married.
I think Mirza's action are more indicative of true love.
Rabh Rakha
Suminderpal Singh
Rajwinder Singh
Suminderpal Singh (be...@pacbell.net) wrote in article <331A1B...@pacbell.net> on Sun, 02 Mar 1997 16:30:08 -0800 :
>I think Mirza's action are more indicative of true love.
Heer is a heroine in the story while Sahiban is accused of treason
against Mirja, in favor of her brothers. (Mirja being a sharpshooter,
she feared he would have strung all her brothers and cousins with his
arrows, so she broke all the arrows and threw the bow up into
the janD tree).
Heer, even though she was forcibly married off, never accepted
Saida (her husband) and loved Ranjha all along.
Also, Guru Gobind SIngh ji's bani is not in Guru Granth Sahib, but
in the Dasam Granth.
rs
Suminderpal Singh
Rajwinder Singh wrote:
>
> Suminderpal Singh (be...@pacbell.net) wrote in article <331A1B...@pacbell.net> on Sun, 02 Mar 1997 16:30:08 -0800 :
>
> >I think Mirza's action are more indicative of true love.
>
> Heer is a heroine in the story while Sahiban is accused of treason
> against Mirja, in favor of her brothers. (Mirja being a sharpshooter,
> she feared he would have strung all her brothers and cousins with his
> arrows, so she broke all the arrows and threw the bow up into
> the janD tree).
Rajwinder,
In my previous post I had made it very clear that we are not talking about
the role of Sahiban. I wan't to focus only on the actions of Mirza. I think
that if actions were allowed to talk for themselves, wouldn't you agree that
Mirza was more determined to achieve his love and thus had the boldness of
flirting with the idea of actually eloping with Sahiban.
Whereas, it is well known that Ranjha could not do anything other than wail
and weep. He cursed Heer of playing with him for 12 years and in the end
getting married to Saida (Khera family). Becoming a jogee and getting ears
pierced was his only reaction.
On the other hand, i would like to point out one thing that Sahiban did
try to wake Mirza and warn him of approaching danger but he was so tired
that he refused to heed to the alarm by Sahiban.
Suminderpal Singh
Sandeep S Bajwa
Suminderpal Singh wrote:
>
> It seems that the love story of Heer Ranjha is considered sacred enough
> by Guru Gobind Singh to be mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib. Where as it is
> very well known that the love story is frowned upon in the Punjabi culture.
Punjabi folklore, While Mirza Sahiban is sort of a one-sided true love
by
Mirza only. Since Sahiban deceived Mirza, all the poets, etc have given
much more importance to the love of Mirza and not Sahiban, this is the
only
epic in which male's name is in front, unlike Sassi Punnu, Heer Ranjha,
Sohni Mahiwal, etc.
The major difference is that Mirza is always called 'Mirza Jutt'
a true Punjabi He-man, while Ranjha is sort of a ladies man playing on
'Vanjhali', and instead of fighting for his love would rather go away,
being disillusioned.
> Could someone be kind enough to shed some light on the love of Mirza for
> Sahiban vs. love of Ranjha for Heer.
Love of Mirza was again sort of a male chauvinist love where Mirza, the
Jutt
(with a stress),
goes to Sahiban's house and kidnap her (with her wishes) from her
parents, sort
of like he wants Sahiban to be his property (Just like any other average
Punjabi) while on the other hand Ranjha's love for Heer has always been
compared like a Sufi's love for God, a Husband's love for Wife, etc.
>
> It is well known that Heer got married in the family of Khedhee and she
> did actually leave for her in-laws and Ranjha did not have the audacity
> to stop her from going.
Precisely here is the point! Ranjha and Heer are thought of inseparable
even
after marriage to other, cause Ranjha is portrayed by Waris Shah as sort
of
God.
>
> On the other hand, ignoring the fact what Sahiban did with Mirzaa, Mirzaa
> was brave enough to swoop away his love from her house before she could
> get married.
Mirza's action were just like an average Punjabi Jutt. Ranjha's
character
is totally unlike Punjabi Jutt.
>
> I think Mirza's action are more indicative of true love.
That's your opinion! :)
>
> Rabh Rakha
>
> Suminderpal Singh
Sandeep S Bajwa
sba...@fyi.net
for first Punjabi page (In Gurmukhi) visit
click on Punjabi poets and follow instructions.
Punjabi poetry by Baba Bulleh Shah, Shiv Batalvi,
Bhai Veer Singh, etc. is here.
icek...@aol.com
yeah i have a couple of questions that i would like hindus to anwer....if any of this sounds offensive, it is not intended to be
1) it seems that throughout history, started from Guru Tegh Bahadur's Sacrifice onward, there have always been sikhs who gave their lives for hindus and for hindu ideals and beliefs, but how come that when thousands and thousands of innocent sikhs were getting slaughtered in punjab, hardly any hindus stood up and did something to stop it...why?
2) in 1977, indira sent hindus to arrest hindus (in the Emergency) but out of brotherhood, sikhs started a peaceful protest from the Akal Thackt and over 40,000 sikhs courted arrest so that those hindus could be taken out of jail, we did this because we believed in botherhood and unity between sikhs and hnidus, yet today, thousands and thousands of criminals who killed sikhs during the 84 riots are walking free in the streets of india....why is it that in 77 we could protest to get hindus, our brothers, out of jail but that today hindus have not went to jail (in peaceful protect) or hardly done anything to send sikh murderers to jail.
3) perhaps the most disturbing thing about the events in the last 15 years in india is that sikh-hindu unity is destoryed, sikhs no longer have that instant trust of hindus and vice versa, communities that lived in peace and harmony for hundreds of years now dont trust each other that much.....what do you attribute to this?....why do you think that sikh-hindu unity is now gone?....do you just think that we decided to not be brothers with hindus anymore?...do you think that bhindranwale made every sikh change their mind about being brothers with hindus
4) do you have any symathy for what has happened to sikhs the past 15 years....i mean for God's sake they have tortured killed and cremated tens of thousands of sikhs in the past couple years alone...i dont know how hindus feel about this...i dont see any, ANY sympathies from deshibigots (who are mostly hindu)....i mean i have, to this day, never met a khalistani or a sikh who said that it was right to kill an innocent hindu (or person).....yet i keep hearing excuses from so many people who are trying to defend the punjab police and the Government of india...instead of just saying "hey, they went around killing innocent sikhs, they were wrong" i keep hearing "well they were looking for terrorists so its understandable that innocent people are killed"....what is the average opinion of the average hindu (not deshibigot) on here?
5) why do you think that sikhs wanted khalistan?...do you think that we just wanted to have indepdence to enslave you and that we wanted to leave india so we could rule ourselves?
6) after operation bluestar, to add insult to injury, many hindus have the indian army sweets for desecrating our Golden Tempe....and it seems that many of you dont believe all the horror tales of what the army did to sikh pilgrims and to our Temple, do you think that all these stories are lies and that sikhs made these up?
7) do you understand why some sikhs took up arms against the Government of india?....now, those who killed the innocent were WRONG and i am pretty convinced that the sikhs who wanted independence and the sikhs who were TRUE sikhs did not kill innocent people, do you understand why these sikhs like Sukhdev Singh and Harjinder Singh took up arms against the Government of India
8) many of you MUST of heard of all the attrocities that are commited daily by the punjab police, atrociteis such as torture, murder, rape, and dishonorment...stories such as 3 year old arvinder singh who was killed by the punjab police and then marked as a terrorist....what is your repsonse to this?....do you agree with it?...i dont see many of you saying that i was wrong....
9) during the independence movement, sikhs put a solemn trust in hindus and showed the ultimate act of brotherhood by foregoing their chance to rule themselves and casting their lot with hindus and under hindu rule....and sikhs have constantly been betrayed by india....and even then sikhs did not ask for independence until the Indian Army entered the gated of the Golden Temple....now, my question it, what trust do you have in being ruled by sikhs....if khalistan was craeted and you lived in it, would you feel that sikhs wuld be able to rule over hindus fairly and justly?....do you question the sikhs ability to rule over themselves and over hindus?
well, those are it, there arent attemped to offend anyone....i really need the average hindu to clear up these questions i have....thanks
Sundeep Singh
amar joshi
sanji singh boparai
Could you guys please answer these questions? Doing so would be a BIG
step in any kind of reconsilliation, at least on the ng. I would really
like to see some people answer these question with heart-felt replies. I
can't really tell who wrote this, the address says amar joshi, but the
sig is Sundeep Singh's.
If amar Joshi wrote this, I have respect for you. If Sundeep Singh wrote
this, I gotta say, you are mature beyond your years. (I know that might
piss you off, I used to get that too, but in this case, I really mean it
as a compliment.)
Sanji
Rajinder Nijjhar
In message <331D9C...@eclipse.net>
Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
All the Satgurus were Hindus and so the Bhagats. Only the sons of
Satan are not Hindu even though they may be clean-shaven.
> icek...@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > yeah i have a couple of questions that i would like hindus to
anwer....if any of this sounds offensive, it is not intended to be
> >
> > 1) it seems that throughout history, started from Guru Tegh
Bahadur's Sacrifice onward, there have always been sikhs who gave
their lives for hindus and for hindu ideals and beliefs, but how come
that when thousands and thousands of innocent sikhs were getting
slaughtered in punjab, hardly any hindus stood up and did something
to stop it...why?
> I think it's because for one thing, Sikhs have more character than us,
> and will stand up for something (we usually won't). Also, the thousands
> of Sikhs killed in Punjab were not mourned or defended by Hindus because
> the conflict had been (rightly or wrongly) painted in Sikh vs. Hindu
> terms, and so they had no sympathy. They probably felt all of those
> innocent people were terrorists. Also, most Hindus just do not want to
> get involved. The poor ones have problems of their own, and the middle
> class or rich are the most selfish, self-serving, spineless bunch of
> #@***##s you could hope to meet.
> >
> > 2) in 1977, indira sent hindus to arrest hindus (in the
Emergency) but out of brotherhood, sikhs started a peaceful protest
from the Akal Thackt and over 40,000 sikhs courted arrest so that
those hindus could be taken out of jail, we did this because we
believed in botherhood and unity between sikhs and hnidus, yet today,
thousands and thousands of criminals who killed sikhs during the 84
riots are walking free in the streets of india....why is it that in
77 we could protest to get hindus, our b
> I never heard of this episode in Sikh history, but if it's true, then
> see my answer to question #1.
> >
> > 3) perhaps the most disturbing thing about the events in the last
15 years in india is that sikh-hindu unity is destoryed, sikhs no
longer have that instant trust of hindus and vice versa, communities
that lived in peace and harmony for hundreds of years now dont trust
each other that much.....what do you attribute to this?....why do you
think that sikh-hindu unity is now gone?....do you just think that we
decided to not be brothers with hindus anymore?...do you think that
bhindranwale made ever
> This is a complicated question with difficult answers. The Sikh/Hindu
> divide has been growing for decades. Before partition, the cause was
> probably efforts by Hindus to claim Sikhism as part of Hinduism, and the
> Sikh reaction of trying to assert their distinctiveness. After
> partition, the Sikh refugees from Pakistan probably felt that they were
> not being treated fairly in India, so that brewed resentment. This
> resentment was felt towards local Hindus as well since they always
> seemed to be an obstacle to Sikh aims.
> >
> >
> >
> > 5) why do you think that sikhs wanted khalistan?...do you think
that we just wanted to have indepdence to enslave you and that we
wanted to leave india so we could rule ourselves?
> I think there are a couple of reasons. Economic, because the GOI was
> not allowing the full economic potential to be reached. Political,
> since political power was held mostly by the center (GOI), and also
> sociological, as awareness of Sikhism and it's history spread thru the
> masses with rising education. BUT, and here I blame the Sikhs, many of
> their intellectuals, in their efforts to claim Sikhs as distinct from
> Hindus, went to such far extremes as to say that Sikhsim and Hinduism
> have NOTHING in common, NO connection, NO links of any kind. This idea
> spread throughout the Sikh intelligentsia, and helped separate the
> communities.
> >
> > 6) after operation bluestar, to add insult to injury, many hindus
have the indian army sweets for desecrating our Golden Tempe....and
it seems that many of you dont believe all the horror tales of what
the army did to sikh pilgrims and to our Temple, do you think that
all these stories are lies and that sikhs made these up?
> Nope. They're true. For the misdeeds of a few Sikhs, and the GOI,
> thousands of innocents suffered.
> >
> > 7) do you understand why some sikhs took up arms against the
Government of india?....now, those who killed the innocent were WRONG
and i am pretty convinced that the sikhs who wanted independence and
the sikhs who were TRUE sikhs did not kill innocent people, do you
understand why these sikhs like Sukhdev Singh and Harjinder Singh
took up arms against the Government of India
> Yup. If I was Sikh I'd do the same thing, probably.
> >
> > 8) many of you MUST of heard of all the attrocities that are
commited daily by the punjab police, atrociteis such as torture,
murder, rape, and dishonorment...stories such as 3 year old arvinder
singh who was killed by the punjab police and then marked as a
terrorist....what is your repsonse to this?....do you agree with
it?...i dont see many of you saying that i was wrong....
> I don't know how much of this still continues...I think the Punjab
> police has now taken on a life of its own, and they're free to do what
> they want; unfortunately, in India, people with absolute power misuse it
> horribly. But understand that in India, no one has rights against
> institutions like the police, government, army, or whatever. It's as
> bad in other states. The difference is, people there don't stand up to
> it. Remember, though, most of the manpower of Punjab police is Sikh.
> >
> > 9) during the independence movement, sikhs put a solemn trust in
hindus and showed the ultimate act of brotherhood by foregoing their
chance to rule themselves and casting their lot with hindus and under
hindu rule....and sikhs have constantly been betrayed by india....and
even then sikhs did not ask for independence until the Indian Army
entered the gated of the Golden Temple....now, my question it, what
trust do you have in being ruled by sikhs....if khalistan was craeted
and you lived in it,
> I feel that not only Sikh, but Hindus as well have been betrayed by our
> leaders - none more so than Mr. Mahatma Gandhi himself. The damage he's
> done to the HIndu religion is incalculable. Instead of looking up to
> great heroes and warriors like Lord Ram, Hanuman ji, Arjun, etc., and
> instead of worshipping the strength of God represented by such powerful
> figures as Lord Shiva and Kali Ma, he convinced us we're a nation of
> weak, feminine, non-violent dweebs. He even misinterpreted the Geeta!
> Anyone who reads it can plainly see that violence for a right cause is
> entirely justified in Hinduism. That comes thru in the Ramayan and
> Mahabharat too, plus all the Hindu scriptures! How he got non-violence
> out of that I have no idea. It was just his own wacky ideas he imposed
> on the country. Why did people listen? They were overpowered by his
> personality. They were not educated enough about their religion or
> their history to make up their own mind. Hell, when even Sikhs
> temporarily forgot Guru Gobind Singh and started listening to Gandhi,
> you can imagine the strenght of his influence in those days.
> And I haven't even mentioned the economic damage done by Nehru's
> socialism, or the rampant corruption, lack of civic morals, basic
> degradation of public life caused by Indira Gandhi and her sons.
sanji singh boparai
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Rajinder Nijjhar wrote:
> In message <331D9C...@eclipse.net>
> Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
>
>
> All the Satgurus were Hindus and so the Bhagats. Only the sons of
> Satan are not Hindu even though they may be clean-shaven.
How bout you try to actually answer the questions next
time rather than diverting things with more of your ceaseless drivel.
Sanji